YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → Is Meta dying? | The Global Story podcast

Is Meta dying? | The Global Story podcast — Transcript

by BBC News · 3,996 words · 686 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00Is it curtains for Facebook?
0:02And if not, what's the future for its
0:05parent company? More than 20 years after
0:08the founding of Facebook, Meta is in an
0:11existential funk. Young people say
0:14Facebook couldn't be less cool. They're
0:17leaving it in droves. The company's
0:19virtual reality experiment known as the
0:22metaverse was canned after tens of
0:25billions of dollars of losses. If you
0:27remember the movie The Social Network
0:30about the early days of the company, now
0:32there's a sort of a sequel. It's called
0:34The Social Reckoning.
0:36Today on the show, we'll be talking with
0:38the reporter whose story is at the
0:40center of this film about where Facebook
0:44and Meta went wrong
0:45>> [music]
0:45>> and what the company's hopes for a
0:47comeback are. From the BBC, I'm Tristan
0:50Redman in London. Welcome to The Global
0:52Story on YouTube.
0:58Jeff Horwitz doesn't feel all that
1:00comfortable being near the center of the
1:02story. He's currently a tech reporter at
1:04Reuters, but previously he worked at The
1:07Wall Street Journal where he made big
1:08waves with his work on the so-called
1:10Facebook files. These were a series of
1:12investigative reports in 2021 that made
1:15explosive revelations about how Meta
1:18functions. And just a note for anyone
1:21listening with children, some of the
1:23allegations we'll be discussing involve
1:25explicit online content.
1:27>> It's fantastic to have you with us,
1:29Jeff. Particularly at this moment when
1:33um you are about to enter a maelstrom of
1:36a film which is partly about your life.
1:39The Social Reckoning, it's coming out
1:41very soon.
1:42You are played by Jeremy Allen White, um
1:47who is known to some people as an
1:48underwear model uh for Calvin Klein as
1:51well as being an actor. How does that
1:53feel being played by uh such a such a
1:55person?
1:56>> Um well, I am not known as an underwear
1:59model. Um, you know, I have yet to have
2:01my break on that front. Um, it's it's
2:03look, it's it's crazy
2:05and
2:07uh
2:07you know, when I first sort of heard
2:09about that casting choice, I was like,
2:11well, well then.
2:13Um, and I mean the whole thing of of
2:16having a film in which there is a
2:19character named
2:21Jeff Horwitz who participates in
2:23journalism. Although he is not, you
2:26know, sort of strictly based on
2:29uh
2:30my experiences precisely. Inspired by,
2:33not based on.
2:35Um
2:36is
2:37kind of awesome [snorts] and weird. I
2:39have not seen the film yet. So,
2:42you know, I I'll I'll save my opinion on
2:44whether it's more awesome or more weird
2:47but for down the road but
2:49you know, it's certainly exciting.
2:50>> Well, tell us then what is the story?
2:52What is your story depicted in this
2:55movie?
2:56>> Back in 2020 and 2021
3:01I made contact with
3:05a Facebook employee. Wasn't Meta then,
3:08it was Facebook.
3:09As I am want to do, that's a very key
3:12part of my process and and work. Um
3:15and started building a relationship
3:20to sort of because this person had
3:22serious concerns about how the company
3:24was
3:26building its products and
3:30hiding information potentially about
3:33relevant societal effects of those
3:36products.
3:37And um
3:39that person was Frances Haugen and so
3:42the movie is
3:44the story of that relationship and uh
3:50the you know, telling sort of [snorts]
3:52explaining what the company was doing um
3:55through that.
3:56>> Well, apart from you, Jeff Horwitz, who
3:58are the other main characters?
4:00>> There's Frances Haugen uh who was uh the
4:04um
4:05the whistleblower who I worked with uh
4:08and
4:09uh she's being played by Mikey Madison.
4:12And then there are um a whole bunch of
4:16uh other folks uh including um
4:19uh
4:20Jeremy Strong as uh a a uh Mark
4:23Zuckerberg.
4:25Um so um yeah, it'll be I
4:27I'm interested in seeing it. I'll say
4:29that.
4:30>> Okay, well, it's called The Social
4:32Reckoning and it's
4:33let's think of it as a second
4:35installment of a first film that came
4:37out all the way back in 2010, which was
4:39called The Social Network. Many of our
4:41listeners will remember it. It um
4:44it was the story of Facebook back in the
4:47early 2000s.
4:49And it was fascinating. I remember
4:52watching it at the time because the
4:54story arc was of
4:56uh this group of people who were college
4:59students and then before they knew it,
5:01um they were almost unimaginably
5:04unimaginably rich because of launching
5:07this this social network. So, that was
5:10very much kind of act one. The story of
5:13Facebook, then now Meta, has become
5:16somewhat more complicated
5:19um since then.
5:21How have things progressed since the end
5:24of that movie until the beginning of
5:26this one, Fhil Is In?
5:28>> The I think it's it's useful to think
5:29about like what the social network that
5:32the platform that existed at that time,
5:34right? Which is Facebook, was um
5:37a set of like largely
5:41static pages that people maintained uh
5:44and then there would be updates um that
5:47you know, from people you'd follow that
5:48would show up in chronological order.
5:50There there was no real curation
5:53happening. And
5:55what happened after that is
5:58on its way to the 2012 IPO, they began
6:02sort of building the curated
6:06personalized version of the platform
6:08that anyone who uses social media is now
6:11vastly more familiar with
6:14in which um
6:15the platform itself is designed to
6:18optimize
6:20what it shows you based on what it
6:22believes is broadly popular and
6:25specifically going to be popular with
6:27you.
6:28Um
6:28And
6:30you know, this was done because it was
6:32meant to optimize for how much time
6:34people spent on the platform
6:36and how much content they produced, how
6:39many ads they watched. Obviously is the
6:41the final measure of this as a business
6:43matter.
6:44And
6:46um
6:46>> [clears throat]
6:47>> it it came with a lot of consequences.
6:50>> Such as?
6:51>> The concept of virality of things that
6:53just sort of breach containment very
6:56quickly and before maybe anyone's had a
6:58time to chat a chance to fact-check them
7:00or think through them. That's greatly
7:02boosted by um
7:05by the system they set up, right? It it
7:07is sort of a pro-virality sort of
7:10pro-acceleration
7:11system.
7:13Um likewise uh you know, the ability to
7:17um see certain types of content if you
7:20engage with it, um
7:22then have the system
7:24you know, recognize that engagement and
7:26try to serve you
7:28uh
7:29uh more of the same.
7:31Whether that is um
7:34you know, cat [clears throat] videos or
7:36videos featuring unhealthy
7:39weight loss techniques or whether that
7:41is, uh you know, conspiracies,
7:44um and you know, sort of political
7:46rhetoric of a sort that um
7:49uh
7:49you know, might be a little bit um
7:52vitriolic. There was a long period of
7:54time when like the the big thing people
7:56were concerned about was like
7:58microtargeting of advertisements. This
8:00is the the Cambridge Analytica stuff.
8:02>> Which was a scandal which broke out in
8:042016 around the Brexit vote in the UK,
8:07right?
8:08>> And the US election and Russian election
8:11interference.
8:13In the wake of the 2016 election and
8:15then kind of continuing on for a couple
8:17of years with Cambridge Analytica and
8:19just kind of
8:21uh there was a broad sense that
8:22something had gone wrong on social
8:24media, right? Like people just weren't
8:26supposed to talk to each other like
8:27this. And so the the question was like,
8:29what was going on? And for a few years
8:32inside Meta,
8:34they uh legitimately grappled with um
8:38what this what was going on and whether
8:40maybe it could be fixed. And so they
8:42spun up a whole bunch of teams, they
8:44called themselves like the integrity
8:45team, uh with the idea being that uh
8:49they were going to try to, you know,
8:52not only see if they could do a better
8:54job of catching people who violate the
8:56rules, but also see what changes to the
9:00product might accomplish uh in terms of
9:04making
9:05you know, the product something that
9:07people could be proud of. Um and that,
9:10you know, where where good discussions
9:11happened and healthy
9:14uh relationships were formed and, you
9:16know, groups distributed useful
9:18information.
9:19And um
9:21that lasted for a few years. Uh the uh a
9:25very short version would be that the
9:27company in fact realized that
9:30what they had been optimizing for,
9:32growth and engagement and advertising
9:35revenue, uh
9:37was in fact frequently running directly
9:40contrary to trying to optimize for
9:42quality discussion uh,
9:45civil discourse. I have managed to get
9:48uh, you know, people to share tens of
9:50thousands of blurry screenshots taken
9:52with uh, personal phones uh, of internal
9:55meta work product that demonstrates that
9:57this is exactly the tension, right?
10:00Between between growth and uh, what I
10:04think a lot of people would consider a
10:05healthy platform. And what's very well
10:08demonstrated is the company has when
10:10push comes to shove consistently chosen
10:13growth.
10:13>> Mhm.
10:14>> So, what happened is the people that
10:15meta had hired to make the platform
10:17better found themselves increasingly
10:19boxed in in which they came up with
10:21solutions uh, for how to address things
10:25from polarization to child predation um,
10:30uh, to scam uh, activity. And um,
10:34unfortunately the solutions they came up
10:37with uh, almost invariably involved
10:40taking the platform off of sort of the
10:43growth optimal path.
10:45>> Well, over the years Mark Zuckerberg and
10:47the company leadership have been pretty
10:48adamant that Facebook uh, they say is
10:51about connecting people. Um, they have
10:54this indicator uh, meaningful social
10:57interactions MSI
10:59um, which they talk about. So, so they
11:02say that Facebook is is a force for good
11:05in the world. Be that as it may, if the
11:08atmosphere around the company in the
11:09world is very different from the moment
11:12when that first film was released back
11:14in 2010.
11:16From your reporting, how would you
11:18describe public sentiment around meta
11:21right now?
11:22>> It look, I think there was always some
11:24level of of discomfort with a a whiz kid
11:27uh, who had become so central to the
11:29world's communications. Like uh, I think
11:32people did start to appreciate,
11:34certainly by by 2020 and and definitely
11:37by the time we we published the Facebook
11:39files at The Wall Street Journal.
11:41>> Which was in 2021.
11:42>> that that
11:43that this company was making choices
11:46that seemed to benefit itself at the
11:48expense of democracy in in fragile parts
11:52of the world, the expense of teenagers
11:55consuming some really horrendous stuff.
11:58The company for a few years, I think,
12:01made an effort to
12:04try say it was like really trying to fix
12:06the things that had gone wrong.
12:08I think the company accepted that there
12:12were going to be significant public
12:14image problems that were going to be
12:15lasting.
12:17I mean, this is a memo I got inside the
12:18company company was a marketing document
12:20noting that people absolutely thought
12:23the worst of Meta, but that there was no
12:27decline
12:29in how often they use the product.
12:32So, this was not a business problem. It
12:34was, you know, maybe a problem for for
12:36executives on a, you know, an annoyance
12:38basis. And
12:40Mark Zuckerberg in particular just sort
12:41of adopted a different tone. I mean, he
12:44he has publicly said that uh
12:46he regretted all the years that he spent
12:50taking criticism of the company and its
12:52products seriously.
12:53>> I mean, when you published those
12:55Facebook files back in 2021, one of the
12:58things that you and your colleagues
12:59revealed
13:01was that there was an internal finding
13:04inside the company, inside Meta, that
13:07Facebook, the platform, was considered
13:09desperately uncool,
13:11especially by younger people. Well,
13:14those young people who may or may not
13:16think that Facebook is now desperately
13:18uncool, they're very much at the center
13:20of the conversation about the company
13:22right now because
13:24um we have all these lawsuits
13:28that are swirling around meta. Roughly
13:32speaking, meta
13:34is facing accusations, which it denies,
13:37that it concealed the possible harm that
13:40its platforms did to young people, that
13:43the company was intentionally
13:46juicing its platforms to make them more
13:48addictive for young people. But,
13:50notably, then August meta settled a
13:53lawsuit of paying $17 to 47 states, the
13:57District of Columbia, and US
13:59territories. And it actually, as part of
14:02that settlement, agreed to make some
14:04changes.
14:06One of your principal sources, a former
14:09meta employee,
14:12testified at that trial. Who is he, and
14:15what did he reveal to you and at the
14:18trial?
14:19>> Artur Bakhar was a former
14:21Facebook safety executive who left in
14:242015, but then started getting back in
14:26touch with his old colleagues because
14:28his daughter was having such awful
14:30experiences on the platform. He's like,
14:32"What's going wrong?" I mean, so she was
14:33receiving a lot of unsolicited pictures
14:36of genitalia, and other
14:40you know, sort of just misogynistic sort
14:42of abuse.
14:43And
14:45he was actually invited back in as a
14:47consultant to try to study this problem
14:49at Instagram.
14:51And
14:53one of the things he did was sort of
14:55run this massive survey studying teens'
14:59actual lived experiences on the
15:01platform. And it was it was awful. Like,
15:04the the statistics in terms of people
15:07who'd been
15:08you know, sexually harassed or groomed
15:11or sent you know, something really
15:13inappropriate to a child was like
15:16a very high rate. The percentage of
15:19people who said that Instagram regularly
15:21made them see if feel they themselves
15:23feel bad about themselves was
15:25uncomfortably high.
15:27Uh and so
15:30he became a source and the state AGs
15:33actually had him as the lead witness for
15:36the trial. Um
15:39on teen well-being and meta and mental
15:41health. Uh the things that are in the
15:44settlement aside from
15:46a very big payout over the course of 17
15:49years uh are restrictions on
15:52notifications. So like no more sending
15:55teens
15:56you know prompts to log on at 11:00 p.m.
15:59And also no doing that during the school
16:01day. And then also there is a limit on
16:06for known teens and teens with teen
16:09accounts that meta understands to be
16:12actual minors
16:14that there's theoretically a 2-hour
16:16limit on how much time they can spend on
16:19the platform every day to sort of
16:21prevent binging
16:22on potentially unhealthy content.
16:26I I do say theoretically there because
16:28um
16:29the catch is that meta has to correctly
16:33be able to determine that a account is a
16:36teenager.
16:37And how the company is going to go about
16:41doing that, that is not clear.
16:43>> I have to say some some of our listeners
16:44might be wondering, well,
16:46isn't that up to parents to deal with
16:48that situation and take their phone
16:50away, for example? Why is that Meta's
16:52fault?
16:53>> The idea that parents are actually
16:55capable of monitoring
16:57their children's use of the platform or
17:00of any plat of any social media
17:02platforms is uh just
17:05it's impossible. I mean, even people who
17:07are really serious about doing it um
17:10uh you know, and set all of the parental
17:12restrictions, like there are always ways
17:15around it.
17:15>> Mhm.
17:16>> The internal understanding at Meta and
17:19that you know, this was written down in
17:20documents, was that everyone liked the
17:21idea of parental controls, but almost
17:23nobody used them, and nobody used them
17:25well. We'll put it that way.
17:27That realization has been why a growing
17:30number of countries have attempted to
17:33put restrictions on just
17:35teens below a certain age from using the
17:38platform at all. Uh and you could see in
17:40Australia, I think which was one of the
17:42first out of the gate here, um
17:44that they have struggled to uh get
17:47social media companies, not just Meta,
17:50to
17:51uh
17:52uh functionally keep teenagers off the
17:54platform. Um you know, that most
17:56Australian teens of, you know, the age
17:5813 to 15 who are theoretically banned
18:00are still using it per surveys.
18:03>> So, Meta settled $17 billion. They
18:06agreed to make these changes. Is this
18:09enough to stem the bleeding as far as
18:11the company is concerned, or is there a
18:14threat
18:15longer term to Meta's future?
18:18>> This was a very big thing for Meta to
18:21put behind it. That said, there's still
18:23a ton of other cases um brought by
18:25private litigants, by school districts,
18:28um
18:29basically making very similar
18:31allegations that the company knowingly
18:33designed a product that was harmful to
18:35teenagers. So, how painful this is going
18:38to be for the company is is unclear, but
18:41certainly
18:42being able to put this particular suit
18:45behind them um
18:47uh is very welcome for the company.
18:49>> And what's their way out therefore from
18:50this tricky patch? I mean, we've seen
18:52reports that
18:54uh
18:55it's a rare thing. Um Meta users are
18:57declining this year, and then obviously
18:59the the lawsuit is been very bad news
19:01for them. But what's the solution?
19:03What's next?
19:04>> For a number of years, the company has
19:06been
19:08I would say less and less interested in
19:10social media as the next thing. Um
19:13uh so, you know, you saw this with Mark
19:16Zuckerberg getting really excited about
19:18the blockchain and
19:20you know, cryptocurrency stuff for a
19:23while.
19:24Um You saw this then with the pivot to
19:27the metaverse.
19:28>> I mean I Jeff, I remember the metaverse.
19:29They spent they spent 80 billion dollars
19:32almost on on that project, which was
19:35then
19:36canned pretty unceremoniously not very
19:38long afterwards. I think it it limped
19:41into the beginning of this year before
19:42finally being axed. I mean, it does
19:45suggest that Mark Zuckerberg as an
19:48operator is not infallible. So,
19:53is there a possibility that the next big
19:55project could tank in the same way?
19:58>> I mean, the next big project is LLMs and
20:02large language models and generative AI.
20:05Like everyone is chasing that that
20:07whale.
20:08>> Mhm.
20:08>> And Meta has
20:12certainly not established itself to be
20:14in in in the lead in any of this despite
20:17spending money with the best of them.
20:20And Meta also does have a track record
20:23of they realized they didn't get into
20:25something. They spend a whole bunch of
20:28money trying to catch up. But if it is
20:32actually the future, Meta has the cash
20:34flow to be a serious player. And I think
20:37that's one of the things with with
20:38generative AI that you know, this is
20:39something I got into after the Facebook
20:41files was
20:43how the company was approaching that.
20:44And it was
20:46very similar in terms of the we must
20:48make the thing grow even if there are
20:51some really unpleasant side effects like
20:54the
20:55work I was doing last year was
20:58about Meta knowingly creating chatbots
21:02that they weren't really good for
21:04anything else other than like soft core
21:06sexting.
21:07And um
21:10they intentionally rolled those out to
21:12children.
21:13Um because they um
21:17uh it was a product growth choice. It
21:19was that it was actually the policy
21:20guidelines for their meta AI, their
21:22chatbots, that stated it was acceptable
21:25to engage a child in conversations that
21:27are romantic or sensual.
21:29>> Yeah, this is a this is a company
21:31document that says this.
21:32>> Oh, yeah. No, no, this was this was the
21:33this was the um the policy document
21:36governing chatbots. Uh we got that um
21:39at Reuters and uh we published it. I
21:42mean, and the company said that that was
21:43all a misunderstanding and definitely
21:45should never have been wasn't ever
21:47actually the real rule.
21:49Although we did demonstrate that the
21:50chatbots did indeed do that.
21:53>> is a very much more wholesome um face
21:55that Facebook that Meta is putting on
21:58its um
21:59its LLM AI project. So, there is this
22:02video that I've seen of Mark Zuckerberg
22:06launching Meta's new AI agent. And he
22:11talks about this new product called Muse
22:13that's going to help people to plan
22:15their lives and um how it could how
22:18it'll be able to get into your uh data
22:20and your computer, but you shouldn't
22:21worry. It's not a threat. There are
22:22things it can't see. And it'll help him
22:24do things like, you know, cook bread, uh
22:27bake bread with his daughter, and go
22:28hiking, and plan his MMA training, and
22:31all that kind of thing. Um I mean, can a
22:33thing like this really be the future of
22:36a giant company like Meta? Is it enough?
22:39>> I mean,
22:40I don't know that it has to be, right?
22:44They have as much money as anyone
22:47um or more, and they have as much user
22:49data as anyone or more.
22:52Uh and these two things are um really
22:56formidable advantages in um in this sort
22:59of maximalist AI race. People have
23:02noticed the
23:03vast spending on generative AI and I
23:07think there's still a lot of confusion
23:09as to what it looks like. Reuters
23:11recently, one of my colleagues wrote
23:12about um
23:14uh
23:15how Mark Zuckerberg had to call off
23:17aspirations for
23:20extremely steep layoffs. Like they were
23:23hypothesizing potentially as much as 60%
23:27over the course of like a year or two.
23:29Um
23:30Uh
23:31called it off because simply the AI
23:33wasn't there yet. Um
23:35you know, the technology wasn't ready
23:36and the valuable human beings didn't
23:39really like the idea of working in an
23:41environment where, you know, just their
23:43colleagues are getting axed right and
23:44left. It was just kind of almost a
23:46mutinous situation.
23:47Um
23:48So, you know, what this looks like and
23:52where uh things will um
23:55you know, what the next stage of this
23:56technology is is going to be and how AI
23:59is going to shape or replace social
24:01media.
24:02Um
24:03Uh all TBD. Uh but um
24:07I think I think trying to to envision a
24:09future in which simultaneously
24:12everyone is glued to Meta's products and
24:15also it's very wholesome. That's been a
24:18challenge for the company over the
24:19years. Uh I mean, the advertising
24:21business, I think for a lot of years
24:23people predicted that sort of objective
24:26quality of content on the platform
24:29was going to just tank the numbers. At
24:32some point that, you know, you couldn't
24:33just allow fake news and crappy
24:37generative AI videos to just um
24:41you know, overtake the platform. That
24:43there was going to be something to be a
24:44price to pay with users.
24:46That has never been the case.
24:52I mean, nothing's ever secure. Things
24:54are behemoths until they're not. Uh but
24:57there's as of yet um sort of no
25:00indication that would make you think
25:02that this company isn't going to be
25:06you know, prominent 10 years from now in
25:07the same way.
25:09I mean, they they have historically been
25:12even if they have not maybe come up with
25:14the next new thing themselves, they have
25:15been extremely good at buying
25:18or imitating it. And
25:21you know, have sort of maintained
25:23relevance
25:24you know, through multiple different
25:26cycles of the technology. It's would be
25:28hard to discount meta's dedication to
25:31trying to dominate that next round too,
25:33whatever it should be.
25:34>> Jeff Horwitz, thank you so much. It's
25:36been a real pleasure to talk this
25:37through with you.
25:38>> Thank you very much, Tristan.
25:40>> That was Jeff Horwitz, a Reuters
25:42journalist whose reporting inspired the
25:44new film The Social Reckoning. [music]
25:46And just a note from Meta on the
25:48allegations mentioned by Jeff on
25:50chatbots engaging inappropriate
25:51conversations with children, Meta told
25:54the BBC that quote, "The examples and
25:56notes in question were and are erroneous
25:59and inconsistent with our policies and
26:01have been removed." They said they have
26:03quote, "Clear policies that prohibit
26:05content that sexualizes children and
26:07sexualized role-play between adults and
26:10minors."
26:12That's it from us for today. Thanks so
26:14much for tuning in. The Global Story is
26:15also an audio podcast available every
26:18weekday wherever you get your pods. See
26:20you next time. Cheerio.

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of Is Meta dying? | The Global Story podcast by BBC News, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 3,996 words across 686 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.