Is Climate Denial Destroying Our Planet? (Full Program) — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00from the Commonwealth Club of California this  is climate one changing the conversation about
2. 0:04America's energy economy and environment I'm  Greg Dalton and last night I had a glass of wine
3. 0:09with dinner well two actually in California wine  bottles and stores carry signs that say drinking
4. 0:16alcohol may increase cancer risk does that mean  that Americans who drink and I are in denial about
5. 0:22alcohol and cancer the show today we will discuss  many forms of denial from a little bit won't hurt
6. 0:29me to burning fossil fuels isn't warming the  earth experts say some denial is human normal
7. 0:36and necessary it also can be manufactured  and dangerous here at climate one we often
8. 0:41come in questions from different disciplines  and perspectives and today on the show we'll
9. 0:46hear from a scientist a journalist psychologist  and an editorial cartoonist along the way we'll
10. 0:52include questions from our live audience here  at the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco which
11. 0:56includes people living in denial about many many  things Michael Mann is the can tell just looking
12. 1:03Michael Mann is distinguished a professor of  meteorology at Penn State University he is
13. 1:08co-author of the new book the madhouse affect how  climate change denial is threatening our planet
14. 1:14destroying our politics and driving us crazy  Renee alerts man is an author and speaker who
15. 1:20focuses on the psychological aspects of climate in  the environment she's the author of environmental
16. 1:25melancholia psychoanalytic dimensions of  engagement Christine Russell's a veteran
17. 1:31science journalist her writing has appeared in  Columbia Journalism Review Scientific American
18. 1:35the Atlantic and the Washington Post she's a  senior fellow at Harvard University's Kennedy
19. 1:41School of Government Tom towles is a doctoral  cartoonist from the Washington Post an author of
20. 1:47the Tom tolls blog he's won many awards including  the Pulitzer Prize for editorial cartooning with
21. 1:53Michael Mann he is co-author of the mad house  effect please welcome them to climate one
22. 1:58welcome to all of you I want to begin by  playing a clip we went out and found a
23. 2:11climate denier we figure we wouldn't have a  whole lot of them that perspective on stage
24. 2:16in the audience today so we wanted to be  sure that that was heard so we went out
25. 2:20to a grocery store in Richmond California and  we found David Ehrlich who is a chair of the
26. 2:27Republican County Republican Party in Alameda  County let's hear what David Ehrlich has to say
27. 2:40my name is David Erlich I'm from Los Angeles  California but I currently live in San Leandro
28. 2:48I'm an electrician by trade and I am the current  chairman of the Alameda County Republican Party
29. 2:54the first political moment I remember in my  life was my parents screaming at the TV at
30. 3:02Jimmy Carter and then I also remember selling  them lemonade in the odd-even lines for gas we
31. 3:08lived about a half a mile from a gas station  that the line went right past our house when
32. 3:12I was in junior high school the big thing  is we're all gonna freeze to death because
33. 3:15there's a hole in the ozone layer we can't use  aerosol sprays anymore I remember my mom was a
34. 3:20big hair care gal in the 80s and she liked  her hair spray she thought it was gonna be
35. 3:24taken away and so I was like as a kid even in  science class I would ask the science teacher
36. 3:30what's the hole is this like sucking everything  out what's how does it work and it never really
37. 3:34could be explained to me how how the hole in the  ozone layer it seems that seems to be forgotten
38. 3:38about we've gone from it's gonna freeze us  all the death to - global warming - now it's
39. 3:43climate change carbon tax is being implemented  because of it it's it's it's it's not right so
40. 3:50there's only 12 volts going through here and  they're being strapped up because the LEDs only
41. 3:58use 12 volts I'm not saying that there's errors  in climate change there is climate change because
42. 4:03if you go the definition of climate change the  climate has changed from this morning to this
43. 4:06evening it depends on what scale you want to look  at it if we're looking at coming out of the Ice
44. 4:12Age and now we're warm and that's where we're at  so that would be a natural progression I don't
45. 4:17really believe there's 99% of the scientists and  what classes science most of the meteorologists I
46. 4:23know don't subscribe to the type of global warming  that we've been told were involved in those are
47. 4:31LEDs these little ones that I put up there's more  LEDs going up so the guy's gonna spend 1/3 less
48. 4:36and get twice twice as much lighting we need  to be working on alternative energies period
49. 4:40because not just not just because of any damage  we can do to the climate or any demyx we can do
50. 4:46the earth change the climate because it's it's  economically right it's its advancement really
51. 4:52what we're looking at is economics because we're  looking at a financial disaster that'll do do us
52. 4:57in quicker than any global warming at this point  in time that's David airlock electrician who we
53. 5:03talked to in Richmond California is chair of the  Alameda County Republican Party and we sent the
54. 5:09journalist Andrew Stelzer out there to talk to him  Michael man there's a lot in there gun packs some
55. 5:16of that that first of all climate and weather  is a difference there but what do you how do
56. 5:20you respond to his views which represent a lot  of what we hear in the climate debate how long
57. 5:24do we have here well you know I think it's easy  to to vilify somebody like that it would be easy
58. 5:31to for us to laugh at you know some of the what  some of the ignorance that has betrayed in that
59. 5:38segment but to me he's an example of you know  someone who's really a victim I not the enemy
60. 5:46he's a victim of a massive misinformation campaign  that were fighting constantly when it comes to the
61. 5:53science of climate change and you you can hear  that in the litany of talking points because he's
62. 5:57essentially delivering standard sort of climate  change contrarian climate change denial talking
63. 6:03points he got some of them mixed up of course the  ozone layer it's a completely different issue from
64. 6:08climate change and no scientists weren't talking  about cooling in the 1970s there were some
65. 6:15scientists who looked at the competing nature of  particulates that were cooling the planet because
66. 6:21of dirty coal burning and greenhouse gases and  these two effects were pushing the climate in
67. 6:27different directions when we passed the Clean Air  Act's in the 1970s to take those particles out of
68. 6:32industrial emissions and of course that unmasked  the hidden warming that has emerged in the time
69. 6:42since then so I think what's also important to  understand just the logical progression is that
70. 6:49those talking points were really just a way  to justify an ideological position and in the
71. 6:57end you saw where he was coming from there's a  quote that I love attributed to James Inhofe a
72. 7:03very well-known Senate climate change denier from  Oklahoma and he once said something to this effect
73. 7:10he said I used to believe the science of climate  change until I learned how much it would cost and
74. 7:17I I think that statement really betrays sort of  the underlying mental process that's at work and
75. 7:26I'm sure who Renee can shed some additional light  on that so I think it's important to understand
76. 7:31that in the end this person comes out on the  right side of the issue and maybe there's some
77. 7:36internal conflict maybe he ultimately understands  that there is a problem here he doesn't want to
78. 7:42explicitly mention it because you know climate  change is sort of for the tribe that he belongs
79. 7:48to its ideologically inappropriate to concede  that climate change is real but in his heart he
80. 7:54sort of knows that it is and he knows the right  thing is to move in the direction of clean energy
81. 7:59and he's actually helping in that effort so Renee  loads men I mean I made the question of whether
82. 8:05the science is even relevant he's installing LED  lights right who cares what he thinks about the
83. 8:11science right he's doing he's installing clean  energies science is complicated it's abstract
84. 8:16yeah do we focus too much on the science and is  it more emotional things that people respond to
85. 8:21yeah absolutely well that example illustrates how  incredibly complicated this is but more so that
86. 8:29as humans were capable of tolerating and managing  a lot of contradictions in ourselves and then one
87. 8:34another so yeah I mean what I would I'm reminded  of and seeing that clip and in Mike's comments
88. 8:42is when we're confronted with information that  brings up conflict with our beliefs our worldview
89. 8:51our you know ideologies whatever our mind will  actually generate incredible strategies to deny
90. 8:59repress and basically avoid our engagement with  the situation and with the reality that's just
91. 9:05that's just neurologically and you know from a  neuroscientific perspective that's what our minds
92. 9:10do when conflict is introduced our our neural  networks are activated and we actually do seek
93. 9:18out scenarios that help us stay in alignment with  a worldview and I would I would add that I think
94. 9:28the reason why the messages and the discourse have  efficacy and land with people is precisely because
95. 9:35there's a incredible difficulty in coming to  terms with what's happening so you know I'm also
96. 9:42reminded in interviews I've done with Republicans  around climate change hardcore skeptics that we
97. 9:47see exactly what we're talking about and what Mike  was mentioning is of a lot of vacillation between
98. 9:52a recognition and acknowledgement somehow you kind  of know that they know deep down that something's
99. 9:58up but they can't allow themselves to go there  because of my identity affiliation it doesn't
100. 10:04feel safe or acceptable to do that our job is to  try to make it more safe to make it to give one
101. 10:12another permission to actually go there Christine  Russell has the media done a good job doing that
102. 10:17well first of all the media is a plural word  and so I think I've seen a number of nostalgia
103. 10:27pieces recently remember the good old days of  Walter Cronkite where that's the way it is and
104. 10:34I think people particularly in this post-election  period are really realizing that again a lot of
105. 10:42the polarization and the kind of thoughts that we  were hearing in that view of the climate denier
106. 10:50is because people are getting their information  from so many different sources and so one of our
107. 10:56problems if you're in mainstream news media is  getting people the information and people are
108. 11:03still getting a lot of information from television  but they're also getting it from selected sources
109. 11:09of information that reinforce what they think  to start with so we don't have that collective
110. 11:17wisdom and I think one of the challenges for  science for journalism for any field is how do
111. 11:25you get a better more educated audience on some of  these areas of science and back to the point you
112. 11:34made I don't think people have to be scientists  and looking at the conversation he was having as
113. 11:41the electrician about his beliefs as if somehow  he could sort out the science and so we've lost
114. 11:49some trust and I think the news media has also  lost a certain amount of trust and people are
115. 11:56blaming the media and certainly in this election  campaign particularly on the Republican side the
116. 12:04media is as much a target as everybody else and  so we I think in the news media in mainstream
117. 12:13journalism really have a challenge to try to reach  out in a bigger pond and reach other people than
118. 12:22just preaching to the converted so I think we  really have a challenge and I think we're gonna
119. 12:29have a lot to cover in the coming months that's  for sure we're gonna go to another member of
120. 12:34the news media in just a minute Tom tolls first I  want to show you another clip in a recent episode
121. 12:39of national Geographics climate change program  the years of living dangerously Jack Black talks
122. 12:45to a psychiatrist Lisa van susteren Jack Black  is sitting on a beach laying back and there's a
123. 12:51psychiatrist sitting in a chair with a pencil and  a pad next to him so here's Jack Black talking
124. 12:57about climate change what we know is coming is  sea level rise 3 feet 6 feet 12 feet what is it
125. 13:08that keeps me from really believing or wrapping my  head around these facts here's your premise that's
126. 13:16wrong you are thinking that our brains are only  rational and they're not our brains are wired in
127. 13:24part to deny unpleasant emotions there is a part  of our brain which is highly rational analyzes
128. 13:32data takes in information and then there's the  emotional part of the brain the emotional part
129. 13:38of the brain is extremely powerful and it feels  more comfortable just to just to shut down the
130. 13:46scientific part of my brain and just enjoy the  right now that's Jack Black and years of living
131. 13:53dangerously talking to the psychiatrist Lisa Van  Susteren Tom tolls humor gets to a deeper level
132. 13:59perhaps get to that emotional level so how do  you approach climate change and the cartoons that
133. 14:03you've done in the book well my answer will fold  back into some of the previous video - I mean we
134. 14:15were just talking about has the news media been  helpful on this and I would say that over the
135. 14:22last 30 years on this topic and I agree the media  is a plural but I think in over the last thirty
136. 14:29years the the media has been in the aggregate  essentially abysmal at covering the climate
137. 14:36issue both in terms of the way they defaulted into  the easy formula of both sides that's one problem
138. 14:46the other problem is not taking the enormity of  the problem seriously at all and relegating it as
139. 14:56kind of a side issue page six issue when it's  I was on a radio program earlier this morning
140. 15:06and I said there the the analogy I mean car tunas  think in visual terms but the analogy is this is
141. 15:14an asteroid coming at Earth and you know everybody  says oh well what if an asteroid hits us someday
142. 15:20this is essentially the same thing the science of  the matter is very clear now we can see that Astro
143. 15:27growing in the sky every day and we're confronted  with a news media that for some reason doesn't
144. 15:34care to cover the story of the asteroid that's  going to hit us particularly and they when they do
145. 15:41cover it they cover it have covered it's getting  a little better now but they have covered it well
146. 15:47we're gonna we're gonna talk to a scientist that  explains that the asteroid is this size and one
147. 15:53that hits the earth in this place it's going to  do this amount of damage you can measure and and
148. 15:57calculate this and then we're going to talk to an  electrician or who works for the Republican Party
149. 16:06and ask him if he thinks that the asteroid is is  there or whether it's similar different to other
150. 16:16asteroids that may or may not have been there or  rumors of asteroids or mythological animals I mean
151. 16:28III find it I think it's an excellent place to  start a discussion but I think it's actually a
152. 16:33little bit offensive that this electrician is  given even that much time I agree actually if
153. 16:41you my real answer is to listen to the answers  that were given before because Michaels answers
154. 16:46was perfect that's it individuals as a human being  is not the enemy but and I agree with everything
155. 16:55he said about it but in practicality actually  yes he is the enemy and the enemy is also taking
156. 17:02this guy's completely incoherent understanding  of the issue is representing something other
157. 17:09than a massive problem I mean I just hope to  god that he understands how to wire our house
158. 17:16then he understands what he was saying about his  understanding because it didn't even add up to
159. 17:24anything I mean if you wired a house the way he  was talking the whole thing would burn down at
160. 17:28a date and I would say not only don't hire this  guy to to to install your wiring I would say also
161. 17:35don't join any political parties that this guy is  associated with but anyway what was the question
162. 17:43Brene dealers been an all fairness that gentleman  who spoke to our reporter isn't here to defend
163. 17:51himself and it may get laughs but is it right  to villainize people like that right so no I
164. 17:57think we're all in agreement on that point  I just want to follow on Tom's comment about
165. 18:03the asteroid so I will I will actually clarify  the difference between an asteroid and climate
166. 18:11change is that an asteroid is external to us and  climate change we're all living within the systems
167. 18:18that are producing the issue and that is what  makes it fundamentally a profound psychological
168. 18:25and social quandary and dilemma because we will  as humans deny and defend till the bitter end if
169. 18:35we feel that and and one of the things that came  up in the video is lost so his mother was afraid
170. 18:41that something that she's attached to is going  to be taken away that's going on at a collective
171. 18:46social level and I think humor is is one of our  most powerful resources for effectively disarming
172. 18:56the human defense mechanisms I mean Frye knew  this many psychotherapists know this that humor
173. 19:02humor can be very disarming in addition to other  mechanisms other strategies that help disarm and
174. 19:09that includes the ability to say look you know  this is scary this is maybe feels overwhelming
175. 19:15I don't want this to be true as well so show some  empathy I mean God knows I wish this wasn't true
176. 19:21but it is and that's why we all you know so you  move on from there we're all part of it if you're
177. 19:26just joining us Rene Nordmann is an author and  environmental psychologist Michael Mann is a
178. 19:32professor of meteorology at Penn State University  Christine Russell's a veteran science journalists
179. 19:37fellow at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government  and Tom tolls the editorial cartoonist at the
180. 19:42Washington Post I'm Greg Dalton Mike man I'd  like to ask you about a real legitimate villain
181. 19:49perhaps Frederic Seitz was former president  of the National me of Sciences president of
182. 19:54Rockefeller University won many awards and he  you write in your book the madhouse effect is a
183. 20:01founding figure in the art of modern-day science  denialism so tell us how such a distinguished
184. 20:08figure and I went to the dark side yeah you  know I have some personal connections with
185. 20:12sites in a sense he was a solid earth physicist  a very distinguished so sorry a and not a solid
186. 20:20earth a a solid state solid state physicist so  studying how materials work and that's where I
187. 20:32got my start in physics as well at UC Berkeley  I was studying in that area and ultimately he
188. 20:39became a president of the Rockefeller Institute  a member of the National Academy of Sciences he
189. 20:45actually became president of the National Academy  of Sciences so when people say you know well how
190. 20:51is it that you know somebody that smart cannot  get it cannot get the science of climate change
191. 20:58it's not a matter of intelligence I think we  have to recognize that there are ideological
192. 21:03you know issues at work and and his case he  actually ended up receiving I think something
193. 21:10like seventy million dollars from RJ Reynolds  Tobacco to found an institute whose primary
194. 21:18function would be to attack the science linking  tobacco and human health and there's a famous
195. 21:28saying attributed to Upton Sinclair it's very  difficult to get a man to understand something
196. 21:37when his salary depends on not understanding it  and so I think we have to recognize that there is
197. 21:43denialism that comes from exactly the place that  Rene is describing there are various strains of
198. 21:48denialism some of it comes from you know a  self-interested sort of origin as well and
199. 21:59I don't think I think in some sense that's  the more challenging a denialism to access
200. 22:07and maybe convert and turn around because it's  so self-interested and it's so tied to ideology I
201. 22:14don't think any amount of information was going to  convince the president a former president of the
202. 22:21National Academy of Sciences that he was wrong  about this science I think he was absolutely
203. 22:26convinced that he was right and he was convinced  that he was doing the right thing from a political
204. 22:31standpoint I think that's a harder nut to crack  I think it's a part of what we face the fact that
205. 22:37climate change denial ISM that people like The  Electrician that we're talking about as I said
206. 22:42before I see him as a victim of a campaign  a massive disinformation campaign the same
207. 22:47interest some of the same Talking Heads who were  working for the de backhoe industry decades ago
208. 22:52denying the connection between tobacco and climate  change are today receiving money from fossil fuel
209. 22:58interests to undermine the public's understanding  and policymakers understanding of the science of
210. 23:03climate change and that's that that is well  suffice it to say that those people to some
211. 23:10extent were operating in the shadows given  the latest round of nominations for various
212. 23:16departments in our presidency those people may  now be controlling the reins of government and
213. 23:23that's something we haven't seen before Tom tolls  you're gonna have a lot of fun the next four years
214. 23:27only if you find describing the imminent decline  and destruction of the planet the ecosystems the
215. 23:43economic base the political base and pretty much  everything that we've come to depend on and love
216. 23:52about the planet and our way of life and our  fellow man if we if you can enjoy the process
217. 23:59of watching the dissolution and destruction  of all that I've be having a great time
218. 24:07I I agree with Rene and I mean climate has been  described as the political policy problem from
219. 24:15hell and the recent research on the way the  brain functions the way it is evolved as a
220. 24:23many tracking system some of which some of the  tracks are rational some are instinctual some
221. 24:31of them are selfish some of them are social  that is the fundamental base on which this
222. 24:39issue has fallen in that it's abstract it  has four sacrifices now for a vague threat
223. 24:48later and all of that is true this is not the  first time this has happened I mean almost
224. 24:57every environmental issue has played into this  a psychological trap to a certain extent I think
225. 25:05the the electrician's referencing to the ozone  hole was probably the most directly applicable
226. 25:13although he didn't seem to know understand the  difference between that and the climate issue
227. 25:18but there again it was aerosols are going  to do something we have to change the the
228. 25:24product that we've familiar with comfortable  with economically secure with to fix a problem
229. 25:32that is described as molecular interaction that  is destroying something that a layer that no one
230. 25:38had ever heard of before that was going to cause  cancer that was also a problem very much like this
231. 25:43only on us some ways a smaller scale although  that was also globally a fairly significant one
232. 25:48but the fact of the matter is we did solve  at human beings can solve this the climate
233. 25:53problem is the same psychological problem I'm  sorry for going on just a long about finishing
234. 25:58the second the psychological problem is there  but you take away the specific directed focused
235. 26:06targeted misinformation campaign from fossil  fuel industry this problem would look entirely
236. 26:16different the public opinion had even the pen  within the Republican Party and I use that as
237. 26:23a as a as a generic not necessarily always  in every case every Republican but even the
238. 26:29positions and policies within the Republican  Party were starting to come around that has
239. 26:37changed the the science has only gotten stronger  it's the money that is contaminating this problem
240. 26:43and now it now that all that has flowed  into an overt political machine that is
241. 26:52occupying the American government right now  I'm told us that a turtle cartoonist for The
242. 26:57Washington Post we're talking about climate  denial at climate one I'm Greg dolt and I'd
243. 27:01like to go to our lightning round which  is a series of quick questions and quick
244. 27:05answers for our guest today this is a word  association I'll mention a noun and ask you
245. 27:11to just mention the first thing that pops into  your head starting with Tom tolls Rex Tillerson
246. 27:18George Orwell's 1984 mic man the late climate  scientist Stephen Schneider a ray of hope
247. 27:32Chris Russell economist Bjorn Lomborg denial  Rene alerts men Donald Trump this is a yes or
248. 27:53no true false question for Mike man a primary  reason Americans haven't taken more action on
249. 27:58climate change as they lack the basic facts about  burning fossil fuels no Rene alerts men true or
250. 28:06false facts change people's minds boss Tom tolls  yes or no many Americans want to revisit high
251. 28:14school science Chris Russell yes or no talking  about science makes the climate conversation
252. 28:27unnecessarily complicated and boring yes Mike man  yes or no you have climate deniers in your family
253. 28:35no Chris Russell the int yes or no the Intel  on human caused climate change isn't a hundred
254. 28:43percent I guess yes or no yes no Tom toes yes or  no tragedy is hilarious that's a quote from me
255. 29:05so I rode it yes and actually you got it  from someone else and actually tom has a
256. 29:12cartoon on that number where where the cartoon  says it's a hundred percent of scientists and
257. 29:19then there's a correction on the news no it's  99.5 percent and the person at home said aha
258. 29:27you know something's wrong so I had to think  through that cartoon it's in the book it's
259. 29:33in the book the bad house effects Renee alerts  men yes or no one of the most primitive defenses
260. 29:42is a villain ization yes also for Renee alerts  men villain ization is going to be the ultimate
261. 29:50downfall of the climate movement yes this is  for Tom tolls yes or no Walter White would be
262. 29:59an excellent choice to run the Drug Enforcement  Agency I'm not even gonna answer that's Saturday
263. 30:07Night Live last week Chris Russell yes or no  Donald Trump is stepping away from making his
264. 30:14businesses bankrupt to bankrupt the country yes  you got that from andy Borowitz in the new yorker
265. 30:21last one Rene alerts men Raquelle en Conway  told Fox News that while Trump could bankrupt
266. 30:27his companies in the country at the same time he  owes it to the American people to put them first
267. 30:36furious with that that's their andy Borowitz
268. 30:41also from the new yorker thank  you let's not give her around
269. 30:44Renee Lutz phone I want to ask you about James  Inhofe because sometimes people you know facts
270. 30:56you said don't change people's minds James Inhofe  the Republican senator from Oklahoma canceled the
271. 31:02keynote address a few years ago at the Heartland  Institute an institute that that denies climate
272. 31:09change is happening he dove into a lake Grand  Lake in Oklahoma for a routine swim and there was
273. 31:18an algae bloom and he was deathly sick and his 13  year old granddaughter didn't want to go into that
274. 31:24green stuff and speaking to humor Senator Inhofe  said to a local paper that the environment Strikes
275. 31:32Back so tell us about the power of personal  influence personal experience and perhaps
276. 31:39children getting to deniers as a way of changing  their views can I just interject very briefly like
277. 31:44that algal bloom was a result of the unprecedented  heat and drought that Oklahoma was experiencing at
278. 31:50the time we now have an EPA Administrator from  Oklahoma will be interesting to see okay okay so
279. 32:02Renee Lauren what I'm trying to get at is personal  experience loved ones changing people's minds that
280. 32:08have not otherwise been changed by facts right  so yes there's there's enough evidence and
281. 32:16research that supports the fact that when we have  direct experience of issues that influences our
282. 32:21perceptions but we want to be very careful that we  don't go too far and that end of the spectrum so
283. 32:27going back to the point around our psychological  challenges around engaging with these issues we do
284. 32:33have imaginations we do have capacity to engage  with our imagination but having that direct
285. 32:39visceral experience can support that but it's not  the full story so Kareem or guards work and I know
286. 32:46Kari has been on the stage as well talking about  her research in Norway her book living in denial
287. 32:51explores how people living in a village where  snow is literally not there people were still
288. 32:59in profound denial so even when things are right  in front of us waters are rising homes and Calgary
289. 33:05are being flooded people can still absolutely be  in denial of what is happening the point that you
290. 33:13mentioned around the influence of children is also  becoming more recognized as very powerful so one
291. 33:20organization the Alliance for climate education  that I've been working with actually is focusing
292. 33:25on supporting young people to have more effective  conversations with their parents we're gonna be
293. 33:31studying that doing research with some folks over  at Stanford so we will be able to see how the
294. 33:37conversations that young people especially teens  are having with their parents and how that might
295. 33:42introduce some openings and this also relates to  the point around conversation that when we're in
296. 33:49social interactions with people we trust and care  about that is absolutely where we can start to see
297. 33:56openings in in how we you know the fixation on  the denial a lot of people hoping that Ivanka
298. 34:03Trump can get to her dad Chris Russell in the  smoking I covered a lot of the smoking wars and
299. 34:10the financial influence but also during that era  there were good studies showing that kids who had
300. 34:17learned in school about smoking came home and  did have an impact on their parents and wisely
301. 34:26so given secondhand smoke as it turned out to be  so I think that's anecdotal approach it's also
302. 34:33used in journalism quite a bit the anecdotal lede  where you tell the story of what has happened to
303. 34:39someone and it can go either way and perhaps one  of the stronger ways to get public interest in the
304. 34:46issue of the seriousness of the issue is to have  more stories coming from places where people are
305. 34:54being impacted and I think one of the surprises  in a way is the evidence that is happening all
306. 35:02around us as opposed to in our there'll be more  to come obviously but I think telling more stories
307. 35:10about how it's impacting and then bringing  the science into explain how that might be
308. 35:17related or precursor and such has always been an  effective way I think giving people and it doesn't
309. 35:25happen in journalism it's always a challenge as  a science journalists figure out how to get the
310. 35:31science out in a kind of easy dose that not cough  medicine so I want to look for because one of the
311. 35:38criticisms of science and journalism is that it's  always doom and gloom it's all the bad stuff and
312. 35:43people want stories of hope they want what can I  do and Chris Russell a lot of this the journalism
313. 35:48around climate is melting glaciers droughts bad  stuff happening and is that because good stories
314. 35:56don't make good news stories don't get on page  one is it because they don't have some tension
315. 36:01or journalists are predisposed to talk about  planes crashing not planes that land safely
316. 36:06sure but where's the the positive stories well I  think the things connecting the dots is the energy
317. 36:15picture is obviously the bigger story what can  we do even as that electrician that we're going
318. 36:22to keep thinking about you can do something about  a problem regardless of whether you know all of
319. 36:29the details and so most of the surveys that are  being done show considerable public support for
320. 36:35renewable energy for actually paying more to get  you know cars that run on more efficient fuel so
321. 36:47I think that energy and technology if it's not  exaggerated provides a kind of counterpoint and
322. 36:56also the speed with which particularly all  around the world renewable energy is growing
323. 37:02gives people something to do because I think it's  definitely true particularly you know we've got to
324. 37:10stay away from the stories that the ice is up the  ice is down and try to have more content in these
325. 37:17stories but I think more coverage and getting the  business and energy reporters to also bring in the
326. 37:24science and explain how this more efficient car or  the electric car I guess which gets go across the
327. 37:34bridge for free here how that connects to doing  something about the environment and about climate
328. 37:41change Mike man yeah I was just gonna say that  that sort of the ice is up the ice is down any
329. 37:46Rev can refer to that as the whiplash effect these  seemingly contradictory stories that people hear
330. 37:51that causes confusion and doubt and potentially  denial I wanted to actually poll the audience
331. 37:57if I may who here read this story which appeared  over the last few days we have now seen the third
332. 38:04year in a row where global carbon emissions did  not increase even as the global economy continued
333. 38:11to increase it informed audience yeah a quarter of  the audience yeah and that should be leading page
334. 38:17one as far as I'm concerned but at the same time  there was also the story about methane going up so
335. 38:25you know there's the effect renamed lurtz Minh  facts are confusing with facts haven't changed
336. 38:33this mountain of facts haven't caused us to do the  thing that we need to do can we just put some put
337. 38:39science and facts aside and deal with something  else is Jack black wants to - and the couch on the
338. 38:44beach no absolutely not but what we really have  to do is take a more integrated approach that
339. 38:49recognizes that fact and reason and rationality  have to be integrated with the emotional reality
340. 38:56I think in the focus on solutions and positive  stories we want to be very careful that that's
341. 39:03not actually sufficient it's sort of like what's  called bypassing when you just focus on the kind
342. 39:09of rah-rah here's the good story you're not  actually addressing the other part of the
343. 39:14story and the experience that this is this is  a little overwhelming it's a little scary it's
344. 39:20it's a little confusing and I think if we do more  experimentation in our communications where we and
345. 39:26this is a place of innovation we're all being  kind of forced to do things differently right
346. 39:30now - to experiment with addressing the reality  and the facts and the solutions buttocks but bring
347. 39:38in a little bit of that emotional intelligence  bringing a little bit of that you know this is
348. 39:43kind of hard or whatever that is and then move  into and look what's happening now and I think
349. 39:49we'll see a much greater level of receptivity  and engagement in the issues if we take that
350. 39:56more kind of an integrated angle we're talking  about climate change denial climate one that's
351. 40:03Renee alerts man author and strategists we did  a poll on Twitter we had 850 votes and we asked
352. 40:11the question what do you think about human-caused  climate change 61% said it's real and will impact
353. 40:17me 11% is said it's real and won't impact me 12%  said it's natural and 16% said it's a hoax so I
354. 40:28want to get to this it's real it won't impact  me because Renee there's been that's a form of
355. 40:33climate denial light we all we're talking here  about denial which is it's not happening and we
356. 40:40hear about that but there's another thing which is  it's happening but it's going to hurt people far
357. 40:44away or polar bears or people on Pacific Islands  it's not going to affect me on a hill somewhere
358. 40:50where I'll be safe from sea level rise I call this  the kinder gentler climate change you're not very
359. 40:56exactly yeah Mike's written about the kind of  these variations as well so there's some nice
360. 41:01research out there around these variations you  can think of it as rationalization dis - iation
361. 41:09where you're actually putting space or distance  between yourself and the issue these are all very
362. 41:14well known documented strategies that we engage  in that as you say are not cut and dry denial
363. 41:20there's also disavowal where you're you're not  denying something this but you're choosing to not
364. 41:26actually live in that awareness you're choosing  to go on business as usual it's not the same as
365. 41:31saying it doesn't exist so these again are sort  of well-known well-crafted strategies and the
366. 41:37Enna's karna regard has written about in Mike  in and in your book that we need one another
367. 41:43to actually corroborate to make it real so it's  not just me as an individual going around having
368. 41:51this thought I need people in my life and I  need social interactions who can mirror and
369. 41:55reflect that back mic man you write in your book  with Tom towles about Ken Cuccinelli who was an
370. 42:03official in ran for governor in Virginia and he's  basically subpoenaed went to start a legal action
371. 42:09against you to get emails regarding some grants  when you taught at the University of Virginia
372. 42:13University of Virginia paid three hundred fifty  thousand dollars in legal fees defending you and
373. 42:19others tell us what he's doing now ken cuccinelli  former attorney general of Virginia no I called
374. 42:25the couch because that's you know dick to those  to those close to him he's known as the couch
375. 42:30well I'm trying to instance I can think of well  so he he was ultimately not victorious he his
376. 42:53solo subpoena was defeated was rejected by the  state Supreme Court undaunted he ran for governor
377. 43:00of California in the last election Virginia he  covered Virginia I'm promoting him all of a sudden
378. 43:08governor Virginia I campaigned actively with his  opponent Terry McAuliffe who was victorious Ken
379. 43:16Cuccinelli in defeat went off to work on an oyster  farm on Tangier Island which is a small island in
380. 43:24the Chesapeake Bay which is slowly succumbing to  the effects of global sea level rise now google it
381. 43:32it's true you can't make this stuff up a climate  change there there really is no greater hypocrisy
382. 43:38in my view than the hypocrisy we see climate  change denial people often think that they will
383. 43:44get out in time they'll see it coming they can  get out in time I want to ask Tom towles about
384. 43:48one of his cartoons that's in the book madhouse  effect in the Washington Post it's a V in court
385. 43:54testifying as his big ugly monster and he's in  court and he says maybe that storm was one of
386. 44:01mine maybe it wasn't you can't prove a thing so  you'll just have to let me go yeah I mean the
387. 44:09the one of the games there have been many games  played in the debate over climate change and one
388. 44:16of the games that the denial community has played  is they take a fact from the science side that you
389. 44:24cannot specifically attribute any one event to  climate change it could have been uh naturally
390. 44:33it could have happened anyway which is true and  it's just a it's just a cynical game of tangle
391. 44:40footing your opposition with their own honesty  and so they they always deploy that against the
392. 44:46news media in particular any at any any linkage  whatsoever and I've dealt with this my cartoons
393. 44:54because the cartoonists I'm trying to convey  visually and viscerally what climate change will
394. 45:00be like and you see a a freak storm a catastrophic  flood of fire you want to take all those visuals
395. 45:10and and deploy those and say okay maybe even if  this one wasn't connected to can't be proven to
396. 45:16be connected to climate change data this is what  the future is going to be like but it's you have
397. 45:22to do that that maneuver that even if then also  kind of thing which is well it's a little it's
398. 45:33a it's a trickier argument to make so the cartoon  was directing directed at explaining the specific
399. 45:39tactic of trying to split those two things apart  I just I before the the conversation gets away
400. 45:46from this and I know I'm stepping outside the  question you've asked I think I think renee has
401. 45:55gotten the psychology of this exactly right I just  want to push back on that a little bit which I
402. 46:04did already once and I'm gonna repeat it a little  bit the psychology is very real it's not simply a
403. 46:11psychological problem you take away the industry  funding on the specific targeted politically
404. 46:19directed action that this money is being used for  the psychology of the politics would be better
405. 46:26wouldn't necessarily be fundamental different  but it would be the politics would look a lot
406. 46:30different and a lot of the progress that we've  been making both in terms of public education both
407. 46:38in terms of international policy national policy  under the Obama administration we have in this
408. 46:44last election crossed over into an extraordinarily  hazardous moment where all the gains are at risk
409. 46:52I don't think they're lost but politically this  is an extraordinarily hazardous time that I don't
410. 47:00think we've even yet realized this is a dangerous  time for climate a whole lot of other things too
411. 47:09but we are out of screwing around time there's  no time left and I you know I it sounds like I'm
412. 47:22arguing with Renee I'm not she's right you've got  to solve the psychological problem to solve the
413. 47:28political problem but the political problem has  just left way ahead of the psychology here and
414. 47:34we are now in a horrible place and I don't want  anybody to leave here to think that all of this
415. 47:42is just an interesting conversation that we've  had a lot of good thoughts this is genuinely
416. 47:49permanently dangerous not just to the planet  not just to the climate but all our politics our
417. 47:58government institutions our economy they're all  floating like I go like a institution on thin ice
418. 48:07that's melting from under us you can see what what  refugees do to politics in Europe how it can help
419. 48:14undermine all the democratic institutions these  are not just AB tract questions and they're not in
420. 48:22the future anymore we are right up against it now  and if you don't walk away with anything else from
421. 48:28that just remember that we are right at the edge  of the precipice right now and we're teetering
422. 48:41TomTom tolls is the editorial cartoonist from  the Washington Post we'll have Christine Russell
423. 48:47quickly and then we'll go to audience questions i  okay Chris Russell first event I was just going to
424. 48:53say that going forward as was said earlier a lot  of this denial has come out of the shadows where
425. 49:01you have headlines saying the nominee for the EPA  is a climate denier so I think one of the really
426. 49:10important things going forward is the fact that  I think the news media is going to toughen up in
427. 49:17terms of following the history and digging down to  hear more about their history where their funding
428. 49:26came from and more investigative reporting on that  front the follow the money follow the history I
429. 49:34think will be being done on all fronts not just  by journalists but I think there's going to be an
430. 49:40opportunity to make it very public because  the announcements are very public and so I
431. 49:47think people will have a better idea of who these  candidates are and certainly we're getting mixed
432. 49:54signals from Donald Trump but the nominees say  his intention sir Rene there's been Tom towles
433. 50:03has painted a very dark picture what do people do  with that fear that that's sort of a dark is that
434. 50:07a mobilizing place well people know that but  they don't know what to do with it or go where
435. 50:12to go with it exactly I mean it's a terrifying  paralyzing potentially paralyzing place trauma
436. 50:20does tend to fight flight or freeze us I just want  to clarify that I'm I'm in complete agreement with
437. 50:27your prognosis in your position where I'm coming  from I recognize the enormous machinery that's
438. 50:34you know in motion here what I think we have  to really attend to urgently is to find ways
439. 50:42for to support one another in resisting that you  know the the mechanisms that you've described so
440. 50:51acutely right so so I just want to make very clear  I'm not at all saying there is not a huge massive
441. 50:59scary political context we're in but unless we  actually bring in some psychological insight
442. 51:06into how we can support ourselves and one another  and moving through the paralysis and through the
443. 51:12denial we are really going to be in I mean even  more danger people don't know what to do about
444. 51:18it we're talking about climate denial at climate  one you just heard Renee Alerts been an author and
445. 51:23strategist with a psychological background  Michael Mann is the partner is a professor
446. 51:29of meteorology at Penn State University Christine  Russell's a veteran science journalist and fellow
447. 51:34at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government and  Tom tolls they Pulitzer Prize winning editorial
448. 51:39cartoonist for the Washington Post we're going  to invite your participation in the 11 minutes we
449. 51:43have left we're gonna make these questions quick  and brisk and get in as many as we can and we have
450. 51:54a stampede keep them answers Jordan yeah that's  great so to get through and some people are making
451. 52:01a dash so what we'll actually do is well-well  pair up we'll take two questions at a time at
452. 52:07the microphone people microphone back there the  questions are line forming we're not going to
453. 52:12get through the whole line I'll tell you that  let's go to questions we'll take two at a time
454. 52:17yes first question please blindness is a legal  theory that's employed in the drug industry do
455. 52:25you all see any connection where it could be used  in this this fight against climate change thank
456. 52:29you willful blindness and we'll take the second  question very very much appreciate the panel and
457. 52:36it takes a cartoonist to get us serious thank you  what kind of climate event will finally wake us up
458. 52:45so that we do not squander any more time because  we have no time left to Swan thank you willful
459. 52:51blindness mic man oh well I think that argument  has been made I think that was used against the
460. 52:57tobacco industry in the legislation in the court  case that was brought by the state's attorneys
461. 53:03general that they knowingly hid information of  the adverse about the adverse impact of product
462. 53:08the same argument today is being made actually  by the same lead attorney from the tobacco Wars
463. 53:14is now making the argument that ExxonMobil  for example may have engaged in exactly the
464. 53:18same behavior the second question is what event  will finally mobilize we saw a superstorm sandy
465. 53:26Hurricane Katrina all these incremental things  what's going to what's going to tip the balance
466. 53:32we'd like to take that one I'll come to all take  of I we've had massive fires we have flooding from
467. 53:39tornadoes we've had I mean from hurricanes we've  had tornadoes we've had flooding from just freak
468. 53:46brain storms Michael on the radio program this  morning mentioned that for for ordinary pollution
469. 53:53when the Cuyahoga River caught fire that was the  flood I mean that was the event that triggered
470. 53:59the public understanding of the issue I have  my own theory is fires weren't enough flooding
471. 54:05wasn't enough hurricanes tornadoes weren't enough  that the the environmental event that's going to
472. 54:12change the the understanding of this issue is when  people get come out of their houses in march on
473. 54:20washington and march on fossil fuel companies it's  going to be a tidal weight of human beings that's
474. 54:25what it takes right now everybody's going to have  to get out of their chairs some some people would
475. 54:34say food scarcity seeing it and the and the aisles  of the grocery stores might affect let's go we'll
476. 54:39take two questions at a time welcome to climate  one before the election there was a great piece
477. 54:43in the Atlantic titled the Donald Trump was the  first demagogue at the Anthropocene it's its
478. 54:49premise was that we would have expected conditions  for the election of a demagogue to emerged looking
479. 54:55at the climate data but maybe not till 2050 so  everything's happening faster it's here now and
480. 55:00I my question is to contrast that with the need  to get over things like having villains how do
481. 55:06we confront this sort of the urgency of things  happening faster and not being a denial about
482. 55:11that with needing to attend to sort of the summon  changing some of those dynamics socially about
483. 55:16how we understand villains or these qualities  of humanity we need to kind of rise the thank
484. 55:21you and then second question quick for everybody  when did you start thinking climate change was an
485. 55:28issue sort of how did that happen and did you  come from a skeptical Ward just not thinking
486. 55:34about it viewpoint beforehand personal epiphany  or moment realization we'd like to take take that
487. 55:40one well for me to out answer very quickly I read  the early on 30 years ago read the stories they
488. 55:47said okay maybe it isn't proven if it's true it's  it's catastrophe steps now can be taken for me it
489. 55:58was it was one of the problems where the downside  risk was a different order of magnitude than most
490. 56:04problems even if the the science wasn't right I  I started drawing about it then I continued to
491. 56:10draw about because the rest of the media was not  taking that seriously I was just sort of trying
492. 56:17to add an additional voice that didn't seem to be  there Renee alerts men the previous question was
493. 56:25this urgency we need to change quickly and yet we  need to change things that seem to change slowly
494. 56:32like our consciousness and these systems happen  slowly but we got to go fast well humans can
495. 56:39change and respond to events incredibly quickly  it happens in behavior change and in personal
496. 56:46kind of psychological situations all the time the  most expedient fast way to accelerate change is
497. 56:52by disarming our defenses by acknowledging what's  actually going on and making it safe to go there
498. 56:58so the more that we can train and support people  who are in situations where we can actually have
499. 57:03different kinds of conversations that have to  do with recognizing that we're all in this and
500. 57:09that no one intended for this to happen so in  other words the biggest barrier to are engaging
501. 57:14with climate change are precisely those issues a  conflict guilt shame you know confusion and I'm
502. 57:21not talking about from the industry and you know  Mike man yeah so to complement that I think that's
503. 57:27important but we know that market forces are  extremely powerful in directing human behavior and
504. 57:33the autum line a price on carbon would absolutely  help move us in the right direction let's go to
505. 57:41our next audience question welcome to climate  one August 2008 Scientific American magazine
506. 57:47stated that the effect of global warming can be  controlled then it goes on to state if you overlay
507. 58:01uncontrolled population rise there is no hope you  have not at all addressed that why not thank you
508. 58:12population question we'll take that one more why  not population thank you next question to address
509. 58:18the villain ization part I remember reading a  piece I think it was the New York Times maybe was
510. 58:23a New Yorker about basically the way the Italian  head whether use Prime Minister Premier stayed in
511. 58:30power because people concentrated on personal  attacks rather than rather than the policies
512. 58:37that you is implementing and so I'd like to know  what people think that is accurate sort of from
513. 58:43a psychological step standpoint and if so how do  we shift the conversation from you know Trump is
514. 58:48that the next Hitler Trump is the next whatever  and all his appointees are whatever - these are
515. 58:53bad things that they are doing thank you Mike  man environmentalists climate people don't like
516. 58:59to talk about population yeah that's well you know  we our good friend Paul Ehrlich was talking about
517. 59:07population some time ago and there's an identity  that we often refer to when we talk about carbon
518. 59:13emissions it's called the kaya identity Bill  Gates a couple years ago took credit for it
519. 59:18having claimed to discover it himself but it's  actually been around for more than a decade and
520. 59:23it's it's a simple sort of mathematical expression  that tells us how much carbon builds up in the
521. 59:31atmosphere well it's a product of how many people  there are burning carbon it's a product of how we
522. 59:37are getting our energy and there are a number of  terms but the first term and the kaya identity
523. 59:42is population so all other things being equal  more people on the face of the planet using more
524. 59:48energy energy that is gained from the burning of  carbon are going to produce more carbon emissions
525. 59:54now where that becomes problematic is that not all  people are equal when it comes to carbon emissions
526. 1:00:01and for example in China China has the largest  aggregate carbon emissions of any country on the
527. 1:00:07planet but their per capita emissions are still  substantially lower than ours now the worry is as
528. 1:00:12China industrialize --is their economy further as  India industrialized as their economy as the rest
529. 1:00:18of the world leads a more western style lifestyle  and their carbon footprint start to increase
530. 1:00:24that's really the problem that that's the problem  we face it isn't so much right now how many people
531. 1:00:29there are it's how many people who are burning  carbon to get energy living living like us Rene
532. 1:00:35lachemann there was another part of that question  which was basically could villainizing I think
533. 1:00:40they were referring to perhaps her little former  Berlusconi from former Prime Minister of Italy who
534. 1:00:46was a billionaire stayed in power despite lots  of scandals a long time can villain ization we
535. 1:00:52remember that in reality TV the villain is the  star we have a rally TV star who's now president
536. 1:01:00soon president united states could villainizing  him make him stronger and without question i mean
537. 1:01:05it's a siphoning of enormous amounts of energy  and attention villains characters suck up all
538. 1:01:12the oxygen in the room and distract us from  dealing with what's actually going on which
539. 1:01:17is why we have to talk about anxiety we have  to talk about the conditions that give rise
540. 1:01:21to someone like him coming into power let's go  to our last two questions yes dr. Mann when you
541. 1:01:28first published and climate Wars and hockey-stick  in the first few hours of the reviews on Amazon
542. 1:01:37there was an enormous and the number of reviews  that just suddenly showed up that were one-star
543. 1:01:42reviews and many of them said verified purchase  have you ever thought of asking Amazon how many
544. 1:01:50people within a few hours of posting those reviews  we turned their purchases I just think that would
545. 1:01:57be really interesting to find out well thank  you and we'll take one more question to pair
546. 1:02:04it up and then we'll end to echo Renee's phrase  it's incredibly difficult to come to terms with
547. 1:02:10the problem of anthropogenic climate change  my difficulties after studying the problem
548. 1:02:15in seeing the mounting dramatic effects so it  becomes harder to rationally sustain to prevent
549. 1:02:21permanent cataclysmic changes do you think that  one can learn too much about the problem that
550. 1:02:27then paralyzes us to try to work towards solutions  so let's take the first question mic man people
551. 1:02:32trash on you on Amazon well as you may know  a Jeff Bezos who the founder and president of
552. 1:02:41CEO of Amazon also now owns the Washington Post  so maybe my friend Tom tolls can help arrange a
553. 1:02:49meeting with him you know there was a video that  was sort of went semi viral a few years ago and
554. 1:02:57it was a conservative who was explaining to fellow  conservatives how to go online and target Amazon
555. 1:03:06books target books progressive books that they  don't like how to you know bombard them with
556. 1:03:12one-star reviews to lower their ratings and  and how to similarly help along conservative
557. 1:03:20authors by giving them you know lots of five-star  ratings you know ultimately you can't be worrying
558. 1:03:28too much about these things as it turns out the  the cavalry did ultimately show up in a number of
559. 1:03:34really thoughtful reviews were sort of posted and  in the rating of the book increased quite a bit
560. 1:03:42but to everybody in this audience if you read  any of my books please do go online on Amazon
561. 1:03:48and and rate them we can help sort of combat  this bad faith attack on authors but you know
562. 1:03:56ultimately I think it is a manifestation of the  fact that there is this very fractious and very
563. 1:04:05majestic atmosphere when it comes to issues like  human caused climate change and some of it I think
564. 1:04:13relates to the the psychological factors that  Renee is talking about some of it relates to the
565. 1:04:18fact that the issue has been politicized by those  who recognize that by politicizing this issue and
566. 1:04:23by making it a partisan political issue they could  prevent any progress from being made on actually
567. 1:04:30tackling the problem and I think these sorts of  attacks that we see online are a manifestation
568. 1:04:36of a much larger problem a problem in sort of the  loss of good faith in our public discourse Renee
569. 1:04:42Richmond the previous question was is it possible  to know too much did you become paralyzed that's a
570. 1:04:48really powerful question to ask and my response is  no but we have to be exceptionally mindful of the
571. 1:04:56context in which we're learning and taking in the  information so when we're on our own and we're I
572. 1:05:02saluted and we're dealing with all this of course  it's overwhelming and of course it is paralyzing
573. 1:05:08potentially but when we look at the context of  being with others and being able to process what
574. 1:05:16we're learning things rapidly change we actually  as humans have incredible capacity to become very
575. 1:05:23creative and in genuine you know have ingenuity  but we need to think about the context in which
576. 1:05:29we're coming to terms with the issues before we  end I want to ask you to just listen for a moment
577. 1:05:41the children outside are not in this room  their joyful their happy I just wanted to
578. 1:05:47take that moment it's been a little bit of a  distraction but it's actually poignant that
579. 1:05:51that's what we're talking about here listen  to those kids secondly I'd like to give you
580. 1:05:57invite you to give the round of applause for  the climate wine cruise in here does a great job
581. 1:06:09we have to end it there we've been talking about  climate denial and the hope for addressing climate
582. 1:06:14change with Tom tolls editorial cartoonist  for The Washington Post Christine Russell
583. 1:06:19is a veteran science journalist and a fellow at  Harvard's Kennedy School of Government Michael
584. 1:06:24Mann is a professor at Penn State University  and author with Tom towles of the madhouse
585. 1:06:29affect how I forget the subtitle but how climate  change is messing up everything denial changes
586. 1:06:34climate denial is messing up everything and  were they alert ceman who's a psychologist
587. 1:06:39and and climate strategist I'm Greg Dalton I'd  like to invite you to join the conversation on
588. 1:06:45Twitter using our handle at climate one like  to thank our audience here at the Commonwealth
589. 1:06:49Club and on podcast and online thank you  all for being part of this conversation
590. 1:07:04you