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Is breakfast really the most important meal of the day? - The Food Chain podcast, BBC World Service — Transcript

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0:00Hello and welcome to The Food Chain
0:01from the BBC World Service with
0:03me, Ruth Alexander.
0:05In this episode we're asking should
0:07you eat breakfast, and if so,
0:09what?
0:11Joining me is Courtney Peterson, a
0:14researcher in intermittent fasting
0:15and Associate Professor of Nutrition
0:17at the Harvard TH Chan School
0:19of Public Health in the US.
0:21It's great to be here thanks for
0:22having me. Also Professor Alexandra
0:24Johnstone nutrition scientist
0:26based at the Rowett Institute at
0:28the University of Aberdeen in
0:29Scotland. Hi Ruth, thank you for
0:31inviting me to join you today.
0:33And Marianella Herrera an
0:35associate professor at Central
0:36University of Venezuela and
0:39visiting lecturer at Framingham
0:41State University in the US.
0:43Thank you for having me this is
0:44a great opportunity.
0:46Thank you.
0:47So I have to of course start
0:49by asking you each what
0:51did you have for breakfast today?
0:54I had a
0:56very standard breakfast.
0:59I had
1:01a mini croissant,
1:04some jelly,
1:06a piece of turkey and
1:09a coffee.
1:10That sounds very nice and
1:12a step up from my wholewheat
1:14cereal with milk and a coffee.
1:18Alex, what did you have?
1:19Oh Ruth so I'm not actually in the
1:20UK just now I'm in Paris
1:22so I had
1:24and I had to have, I was really
1:26looking forward to it, a
1:28coffee and a croissant and
1:31I had a banana that I took in my
1:32handbag that traveled with me so
1:34and I've been looking forward it
1:37all weekend to
1:39to enjoy that it was lovely.
1:41Wonderful.
1:43I had a giant fruit smoothie
1:45with bananas a
1:47little bit of almond milk and orange
1:50strawberries and some protein
1:51powder.
1:54Is breakfast the most important
1:56meal of the day or is that a myth?
1:58So we've had a lot of exciting
2:00research over the
2:02past 20 years and I'd say
2:04we've learned the important finding
2:06that not only what
2:08you eat and how much you eat, but
2:09when you eat matters. And we
2:11sort of learned that there are three
2:12core principles that really matter.
2:14So the first is, how long
2:16do you fast each day? And
2:18the idea is that we need a longer
2:20fasting period each night just like
2:22we need a period to sleep to rest
2:24and repair, we need a longer fasting
2:26period to rest and repair.
2:28And through my and others' research,
2:29we found that typically fasting for
2:3116 hours in the day can improve
2:33health. Does that mean it could be a
2:35good idea to skip
2:36breakfast then?
2:37Not necessarily.
2:39But skipping breakfast may not be as
2:41bad as you think. It sort of depends
2:43what you do with dinner. And
2:45I can come back to that.
2:46So the second principle we've
2:47learned is the time of day that
2:49you eat matters. Where it's
2:51better to eat earlier in the day.
2:53So again this suggests that
2:55breakfast actually is really
2:56important because we find your
2:58metabolism is higher earlier
3:00in a day and that's due the
3:01circadian system or your body's
3:02internal biological clock.
3:04And the sort of third principle
3:06we've learned is having meals at
3:07consistent times of the day really
3:09matters, because your body adapts to
3:11what you do on a habitual
3:13basis.
3:13So eating at consistent times your
3:15body's not confused and it can start
3:17timing its internal metabolism to
3:20match that. So you can kind of mix
3:21and match these principles.
3:23So if you eat earlier in the day and
3:25do intermittent fasting that's sort
3:26of the best but you can potentially
3:29skip breakfast and get some benefits,
3:31but it's probably better
3:33to
3:35eat breakfast earlier in the day if
3:36you can.
3:36What are the benefits of
3:40having an early breakfast,
3:42and like how
3:44early?
3:45So your body has this internal
3:47biological clock known as the
3:48circadian system that makes you
3:50better at doing different things at
3:52different times of the day.
3:53So for instance, in most people, they
3:55have their best blood sugar control
3:57in the mid- to late-morning.
3:59So that's going to be around sort of
4:00between maybe about 10 am
4:03to noon time.
4:04And so if you can eat a
4:06large breakfast in the morning and/or
4:08I would even say a large lunch
4:10in the morning, your body's going be
4:12better at metabolising that food.
4:14And what that means is, your body's
4:16going to actually, your blood sugar
4:17levels won't spike as high.
4:20You might burn slightly more
4:21fat. You might burn
4:22slightly more calories from eating
4:23earlier in the day.
4:25Whereas if you had, if you eat most
4:27of your food later in the day, your
4:28metabolism is actually slower later
4:30in the day. So for instance, if you
4:31ate the same, I don't know,
4:33bowl of ice cream in the morning, the
4:35afternoon, in the evening, your blood
4:37sugar levels will spike
4:38significantly higher in the
4:40afternoon and the evening.
4:41So as much as possible it is
4:43better to eat earlier in the day.
4:45And one last tidbit in that area
4:47which is when it really
4:49starts getting dark outside and your
4:50body starts releasing the sleep
4:52hormone melatonin, that actually
4:54quite dramatically raises blood
4:56sugar levels.
4:57I have something to add to that.
4:59Marianella.
5:00Because because it's very
5:01interesting.
5:03Courtney is recommending in fact
5:04that we eat as early as
5:07possible.
5:08And I'm just, but think
5:10how important it
5:12has been historically eating
5:15an early breakfast for
5:17the workers in
5:19ancient times.
5:21Breakfast was developed,
5:22in fact,
5:26to nurture those agricultural workers
5:29that had to start very
5:31early in the morning so they
5:33felt that with breakfast
5:36that would be better and
5:39they could have a
5:41better and
5:43improved jobs
5:45across the day, more effective,
5:47more even more alert
5:49across the
5:51journey.
5:52So that is very interesting,
5:54I find.
5:56So, people's...
6:00even before scientists came along
6:02and studied what was going on inside
6:04our bodies, people just knew
6:05that they needed a hearty meal
6:07in the morning to set them up for a
6:09day's work.
6:10And if you skip
6:12breakfast, what
6:14health problems can arise? Alex?
6:17I think it's first of all I want to
6:19say that there is no
6:21universal definition
6:23of what is considered to be
6:25a nutritional breakfast.
6:27So to summarise that,
6:29this is the working definition that
6:31I use. It's the first meal of the
6:33day that breaks the fast after
6:35the longest period of sleep and
6:37consumed within two to three hours
6:40of waking.
6:41So that gives quite a large
6:43scope, doesn't it, for people to
6:45achieve that.
6:46Now, breakfast skipping is interesting
6:48because my
6:50own work would tend to suggest and
6:52that sort of observational large
6:54scale epidemiological
6:56studies would also support this.
6:59That people who
7:01have a regular breakfast
7:03are actually leaner.
7:06And my own
7:08work would tend to suggest that
7:10having your largest
7:12meal of the day in
7:14the morning period
7:16gives you a much better
7:18appetite control, which
7:20then means it's much easier
7:22to control food intake
7:24later in the day.
7:26So really I am supporting
7:28the meme breakfast like a
7:30king and dine like a pauper.
7:32So for you, then, breakfast
7:35is the most important meal of the
7:36day? So it's really important
7:38particularly for people who
7:40are trying to maintain a healthy
7:42weight and people who were
7:44trying to lose weight.
7:47And I think one positive
7:49message from the work that I've done
7:51is that the time of
7:53day does not, from
7:55our own work, published on cell
7:56metabolism, tend to influence
7:58energy metabolism.
8:00We looked at large
8:02morning eaters and
8:04large evening eaters.
8:06And tried to look at whether it
8:08impacted on metabolism
8:10and energy balance and
8:12we found that weight loss was
8:14identical between
8:15the groups. Now that is a really
8:17important message, because
8:19we see that around 30
8:21to 40 per cent, depending on which
8:22country you're based, of
8:24the population are going to be
8:26involved in shift work, who
8:28are not able to comply
8:31to that advice that Courtney just
8:32shared about when to eat
8:34during the light cycle and to sleep
8:36when it's a dark cycle.
8:38So that's actually a really positive
8:40message to share, that it doesn't
8:42matter what time of day
8:43for losing weight.
8:45That flies in the face, doesn't it, of
8:47some of the
8:49evidence you were talking about,
8:51Courtney, that
8:53actually eating earlier
8:55tends to be better for
8:57your health?
8:58Not necessarily.
8:59So I wouldn't
9:01I wouldn't quite agree with that.
9:02So I actually agree with almost
9:04everything Alex says, perhaps
9:06everything.
9:06So she's done really phenomenal
9:09research in this
9:10work, and there's actually been some
9:12fantastic studies out of Israel
9:13testing the old adage of eating
9:15breakfast like a king lunch like
9:17a prince and dinner like a pauper.
9:18And those studies do report
9:20that when people eat most their
9:22calories for breakfast, they
9:25do lose more weight.
9:26It lowers their blood sugar levels
9:28it lowers their blood pressure
9:30and the fascinating thing is, in
9:32women, it even improves fertility,
9:34which I think is absolutely amazing.
9:36And what we've learned now is some
9:37of these same genes and proteins in
9:39our body that produce these
9:41circadian rhythms are also involved
9:43in rhythms that are longer and
9:45shorter than 24 hours.
9:46And one example of that is
9:48actually the menstrual cycle.
9:50So by optimising our circadian
9:51rhythms, we may also be improving
9:53the menstrual cycle,
9:55men and women's hormones and so
9:57forth.
9:58So we definitely, I think there is,
9:59you know, by and large there
10:01have been meta-analyses finding that
10:03eating early in the day does help
10:04for weight loss.
10:06Now, in the field of intermittent
10:07fasting, interestingly, we find
10:10that if people eat in an eight-hour
10:11period, regardless of what
10:13time of day that eight-hour period
10:14is, they lose weight too.
10:16And you might say, but didn't you
10:18just say you need to eat earlier in
10:20the day? But the interesting thing is,
10:21this is where you go back to those
10:23three core principles.
10:24So if you also have a longer fasting
10:26duration, you can still get benefits
10:28for weight loss.
10:29And so there are a lot of people who
10:31like to do intermittent fasting by
10:32skipping breakfast and they still
10:34eat dinner at a relatively early
10:35time.
10:36So if your doing that, say if you're
10:38skipping breakfast, starting to eat
10:39at, you know, 12pm, and then
10:41stopping eating at 8pm.
10:43Or I guess you'd call it
10:45is that 20 hundred hours
10:46military time, that
10:48you can still lose weight.
10:50And it's about the same, roughly the same
10:52size and effect.
10:53So we're not talking about, you know,
10:55dramatic you're going to, you know,
10:56smash all your weight-loss goals.
10:58But we're talking about losing maybe
11:00an extra two pounds a month, or about
11:01one kilogram a month, or one percent
11:03of your body weight a month.
11:04So both of these things are true.
11:06Now the interesting thing is with
11:07intermittent fasting we don't
11:09really see big blood sugar benefits
11:12or improvements in blood pressure
11:13unless those eating windows are
11:15earlier in the day.
11:16And so it looks like they are for
11:18some aspects of your health.
11:19You really need to eat earlier in
11:21the day to get those benefits.
11:22And that seems to be particularly
11:23true for blood sugar and blood
11:25pressure.
11:26But for weight loss, it looks
11:28to be a little, you know, yes
11:30eating earlier in a day you can get
11:31weight loss benefits, at least from
11:33my read of the literature.
11:34But you can also skip breakfast and
11:36lose weight as long as dinner is not
11:38too late.
11:38There's a really interesting study
11:40out of Japan that showed this. They
11:41found that among people who skip
11:43breakfast, about half skip breakfast
11:45and eat dinner late.
11:46And in those individuals, they had a
11:48much higher risk of cardiovascular
11:50disease and having obesity.
11:53But there's a second group of people,
11:55roughly half the population, who skip
11:56breakfast and eat dinner at a normal
11:58time. And those individuals didn't
11:59have much higher risk
12:01of obesity and cardiovascular
12:03disease.
12:04So what that suggests to me is I
12:06like to look at both breakfast and
12:07dinner as very important.
12:08They're both important.
12:10Because dinner time is sort of, you
12:12know, the time later in the night your
12:13body's metabolism is slower.
12:15So I think it's also very important
12:16that we're mindful of what we do at
12:18dinner time and either we make
12:20dinner a relatively healthy meal or
12:22we move it to earlier in the day.
12:24So those are sort of my suggestions.
12:26Then of course there is the question
12:27of what we should be eating.
12:29And we asked people who follow the
12:31BBC World Service Facebook page,
12:33what did you have for breakfast?
12:35Hi I'm Andrea from New York City and
12:37I'm here to talk about my breakfast
12:38routine.
12:39Almost every morning, I have a
12:41smoothie. Frozen blueberries,
12:43frozen spinach, protein
12:45powder, chia seeds,
12:47ground flax seeds, and almond milk.
12:50And I put it all in this blender.
12:52Sometimes I also add a banana to
12:54it and I put in a big cup
12:56and I drink it all morning long.
12:57It's delicious.
12:58It gets your fruits and veggies in
13:00has lots of fibre and
13:02I love it. It's so good.
13:03My name is Joy.
13:05I'm from Trinidad and
13:07my breakfast consists of
13:09local foods
13:11mainly.
13:12So right now avocados, or as we
13:14call them zabocas are in season.
13:17So zaboca on toast
13:19with pawpaw,
13:21that's papaya, or
13:24pomeracks or five
13:26fingers or whatever fruit is
13:28in season, as well
13:30as a nice big cup of coffee.
13:33It's my breakfast of choice.
13:35Good morning The Food Chain.
13:36My name is Catherine and I'm from
13:38south-east London in the
13:40United Kingdom.
13:41It's about 11 o'clock in the morning
13:43here and I am just about to have my
13:45breakfast my first meal of the day.
13:47I have had some coffee I always have
13:49a coffee first thing in the morning.
13:51So this is what I'd like to call
13:53my lush and healthy homegrown
13:55breakfast.
13:56There are two parts to it.
13:58The first is an
14:00apple. It's a huge pink lady apple
14:02that a friend of mine
14:04and I bought a big bag and split
14:05between us. It's one tablespoon
14:07of whole Greek
14:09yogurt and those two little
14:11raspberries are from my garden.
14:13That's about all I've got left.
14:15Earlier in the year I was using a
14:17lot more Kent strawberries, which
14:18were cheap in the supermarket and I
14:20also had some tayberries that came
14:21early in the year.
14:23If I have nothing else this is what
14:25I have in the morning at the
14:27moment.
14:28Following up from that and this is
14:29what makes it lush is I
14:31have a slice of wholemeal toast.
14:33With a tablespoon of cream
14:35cheese I've mixed in there
14:37a mashed anchovy and some
14:39chives and some small spring onions
14:41again that I've grown in my garden.
14:43I won't have many of those left.
14:45This might be the last set that I
14:47have of the small onions.
14:49The cherry tomatoes also are
14:51homegrown. So I'm very proud of
14:53that. I've had a really good harvest
14:55this year.
14:56And on top of that is a boiled egg
14:57and a little splash of
14:59Worcestershire sauce.
15:00Talk about
15:00breakfasting like royalty.
15:02What an absolute feast, Cath.
15:04I would love to come to your house
15:06for breakfast.
15:08Alex, what does a healthy
15:10breakfast look like?
15:11What do we know about that?
15:12The type of breakfast that we eat is
15:14really incredibly important.
15:17So I know from my own research
15:18that appetite and
15:20satiety are very
15:22much influenced by the
15:24macronutrient composition of the
15:27food that we're eating and that
15:28higher protein meals are more
15:31satiating in the morning and that
15:32allows you to feel fuller
15:34for longer and
15:37are perhaps more rewarding.
15:39Which means you're much less likely
15:41to give in to those food cravings
15:43later in the day where you might
15:45grab ready to eat
15:47high salt, high sugar,
15:49high calorie food
15:51products.
15:53So in the examples
15:54you gave, they sounded very
15:56appetising.
15:57They also included
16:00fruits, vegetables and
16:02whole grains.
16:03That's all really important
16:05aspects of a healthy
16:06diet.
16:08Marianella, what do people typically
16:10eat for breakfast in Venezuela
16:12and Colombia, the Latin American
16:13countries you study?
16:15Well, the typical things
16:17are one thing and the traditional
16:19culinary dishes for breakfast.
16:21So one thing you may have heard
16:23about arepas, which is
16:25the cornbread of
16:27both countries.
16:28And there is a controversial
16:30issue like whether the arepa
16:32is from Colombia or Venezuela.
16:34It happens to be both
16:36in the origin.
16:38And they, you know, we
16:40take it with cheese or
16:42filled with shredded
16:44beef or shredded
16:46pork or shredded chicken.
16:48And avocado.
16:50The use of avocado and black beans
16:52is important.
16:54So that is how it looks
16:56like.
16:57The reality is very different for
16:59the many poor people experiencing
17:02hunger and food insecurity
17:04across Latin America in
17:06general. So we
17:08definitely
17:09will not hear as much.
17:11And if we can see also,
17:13as stated by the latest
17:15FAO report, the Global
17:18Food Security Report, one of
17:19the main concerns across the globe
17:21is food inflation,
17:24which is reflected pretty
17:27much everywhere.
17:28We said we would love
17:30to have healthy meals.
17:32However, can we afford
17:34those healthy meals?
17:36And you can see pretty much across
17:38Latin America,
17:40South East Asia and
17:42Africa, people cannot afford
17:45buying healthier foods or
17:47even their traditional foods.
17:50So it's not only
17:52an issue for
17:54the health.
17:56If we can see, I mean, avocados are
17:58healthy, but they are expensive.
18:01Black beans, even black beans and
18:03rice, which is a very traditional
18:05Latin American food.
18:08They might be
18:09not only
18:11costly,
18:13but it's the utilisation
18:16is compromised, as there
18:18might not be gas
18:20or electricity available for cooking
18:22those.
18:23So we have a problem here
18:25in terms of food security, in
18:27terms of access to foods and
18:29the utilisation of food.
18:31So people neglect
18:33those eating
18:35patterns, not because they
18:37want, because they,
18:38they've been forced to
18:40leave those behind.
18:42Skipping breakfast because they have to?
18:43They have to, and it's
18:46mainly a coping strategy
18:47during emergency. Mothers,
18:50and this is really not a
18:52nice thing, mothers will leave the
18:54children sleeping until
18:57pretty much the lunch hour.
18:59So they skip breakfast and then go
19:01directly into lunch.
19:03And therefore we are saving
19:05money for, of one
19:07meal.
19:07And the evidence says that
19:10children need a good breakfast,
19:13particularly if they are attending
19:14school and therefore
19:16eating at school becomes
19:19an attraction
19:21for keeping and
19:23maintaining the scholar
19:25activities
19:27of the kids.
19:28So because the kids are not only
19:31going to school to learn,
19:33but they're going to eat
19:34at school. Courtney, where
19:36you are in the US, people will
19:37also have been feeling the
19:40effect of rising food prices.
19:42People also have
19:44very busy lives.
19:46And, you know, I
19:49could imagine someone watching
19:51this, listening to this and
19:52thinking, well, how
19:54can I fit in a really well-cooked,
19:57wholesome breakfast early
19:59in the morning?
20:00I've, you know, I've
20:03got to get up, get ready for work.
20:04I've got to get my kids ready for
20:06school. What practical advice
20:08do you have for people who
20:10are time-poor and
20:12maybe short on cash as well?
20:13Yeah, absolutely.
20:15So I think one of the biggest thing
20:16is to plan in advance.
20:18So we find actually what's called
20:19meal prepping or kind of
20:21planning your meals in advance and
20:22making multiple at a time is just a
20:24huge strategy that helps people lose
20:26weight and just sort of eating a
20:28healthy diet.
20:29So I'll give you an example.
20:30You know, so for instance, you might
20:31say every day I'm going to have a
20:33smoothie.
20:34Now what you eat every day might
20:35vary. Maybe some days you'll throw
20:37in banana.
20:37Some days you might throw in, you
20:39know, I don't know, pineapple
20:41or something like that.
20:44Berries tend to be more expensive,
20:45but there are cheaper fruits.
20:48You know, melon actually is a really
20:50cheap fruit and extremely
20:51nutritious. That's sort of related
20:53to squashes in some sense.
20:55And so the mineral content is
20:56actually quite high and you can buy
20:58watermelon relatively cheap, for
20:59instance, and that can feed you for
21:01several meals.
21:02You could probably blend watermelon
21:04with a little bit of berries or
21:05something like that and bring some
21:07of the cost down.
21:08Blending in things like chia seeds
21:10or flax seeds can work.
21:12You can also blend in some yogurt,
21:14obviously avoid the yogurts with
21:15sugar.
21:17You can blend in dairy.
21:18You could make, you know, a
21:19breakfast.
21:20You know, eggs are now really
21:21expensive in the US, but they used
21:23to not be.
21:25You know people get really creative.
21:27They have these fantastic recipes
21:29with slow cooked oats, which you
21:31could just mash with some banana and
21:32make into a pancake.
21:34You could add a little bit of
21:35protein power to that too, to get
21:37some of the benefits that Alex has
21:39talked about.
21:40We've talked about the cognitive
21:41benefits
21:41and the health benefits.
21:43Is there also a general
21:45wellbeing benefit to taking the
21:47time to sit down and have your
21:49breakfast?
21:49We have a wonderful study
21:51that we did several years ago
21:53in Venezuela when we
21:55implemented
21:57in a couple of family, low-income
22:00setting families.
22:02We implemented
22:04the benefits of
22:06sharing family meals at
22:09the time of breakfast.
22:11And we saw
22:13an extended benefit,
22:15not only in terms of nutrition,
22:17the kids were
22:18more alert while they
22:21arrive at school and so on.
22:23We have all these parameters being
22:26measured, but the
22:28interaction within the
22:30family was
22:32way better.
22:33Communication with
22:35parents were very,
22:38very way much better
22:40compared to the group that
22:42didn't implement the breakfast
22:44as such at
22:46the time.
22:47And therefore we can
22:49see all the benefits
22:52of family meals.
22:53We have seen that in
22:55for adolescents and we
22:57can see how
22:59even two or three family
23:01meals per week will
23:03lower the risk of engaging in
23:05drugs for adolescents.
23:07So that is fabulous.
23:10That it's something that we
23:12wouldn't want to miss.
23:15If we have the opportunity as
23:17parents to plan ahead.
23:18I have to confess, I am one
23:20generally for eating breakfast on
23:21the fly.
23:22But you have all convinced me to
23:24make more time for it, which I think
23:26is actually going to have to involve
23:27a lifestyle change.
23:29Going to bed earlier so that I can
23:31get up earlier and take my time over
23:33it.
23:34But thank you to each of our
23:36guests, Dr Marianella Herrera.
23:38Thank you very much for having me.
23:41I learned a lot in this fantastic
23:43discussion.
23:44Dr Courtney Peterson.
23:46Thank you so much.
23:46This was great.
23:47And Professor Alexandra Johnstone.
23:50Thank you for having me.
23:51Some fantastic discussion today.
23:53That's it for this episode of The
23:55Food Chain from the BBC World
23:56Service. Do please like and
23:59subscribe and why not give the
24:00BBC World Service a follow.
24:03Happy breakfasting.

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