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Invest in This – It’ll Be Worth $1.5 Million by 2030 | World Leading Investing Expert - Cathie Wood — Transcript

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0:00I've read through a decade of your
0:01research to figure out what the best
0:03investment is, so anyone can get rich in
0:05the future. And you predicted that this
0:07will grow by at least 5,000%.
0:10Yes, and my conviction is so high
0:12because of what I do on a day-to-day
0:14basis. Is there a woman on planet Earth
0:16that manages more money from an
0:18investing capacity than you? Maybe not.
0:21I'm overseeing nearly $30 billion.
0:24Okay, so I might have $500. What should
0:26I be doing with that? So, this is all
0:28you need to know. Cathie Wood built a
0:30multi-billion dollar fund by spotting
0:32trends before anyone else. And now, with
0:34over 40 years of market insight, she's
0:36showing you how and where to invest,
0:39too. AI is the biggest technological
0:42disruption in history. And this
0:44incredible rate of change is making
0:46people uncomfortable. But if you are on
0:49the right side of change, investment
0:51opportunities and job opportunities are
0:53going to be enormous. But people don't
0:55know what to do. For example, many
0:57people think Apple is a very safe
0:59investment, but it's probably going to
1:01be disrupted by artificial intelligence.
1:03But yet, Tesla's going to be the
1:05biggest.
1:06You've invested just over 2 billion in
1:08Tesla. Yeah, because Tesla is the
1:11largest AI project on Earth. So, AI has
1:15to be a top priority, not an
1:18afterthought. Say I've got questions.
1:20What's your top 10 public stocks that
1:22anybody can invest in? What's the
1:23philosophy towards investing that will
1:25make one rich over time? And then, if I
1:27want to invest in AI, how should I be
1:29investing my money? According to our
1:31research, these investments will go up
1:34more than tenfold in the next 5 to 10
1:37years and create incredible
1:39opportunities for investors. So, number
1:42one,
1:44This has always blown my mind a little
1:45bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
1:48regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
1:50show. So, could I ask you for a favor
1:52before we start? If you like this show
1:53and you like what we do here and you
1:54want to support us, the free simple way
1:56that you can do just that is by hitting
1:58the subscribe button. And my commitment
2:00to you is if you do that, then I'll do
2:01everything in my power, me and my team,
2:03to make sure that this show is better
2:05for you every single week. We'll listen
2:06to your feedback, we'll find the guests
2:08that you want me to speak to, and we'll
2:10continue to do what we do. Thank you so
2:12much.
2:16Cathie Wood,
2:17is there a woman on planet Earth that
2:20manages more money from an investing
2:21capacity than you?
2:23Well, there's probably not someone
2:27overseeing Yes, nearly $30 billion.
2:31Uh but I know there are teams out there,
2:33including women, that manage maybe a lot
2:37more than that. What is it that you do?
2:40Invest in companies that are going to
2:44that are technologically enabled and
2:47that that are going to transform the
2:48world as we know it.
2:51Robotics,
2:52energy storage, artificial intelligence,
2:56blockchain technology, and multiomic
3:00sequencing in the life science space.
3:02The last is the most complicated. And
3:05how long have you been an investor? I
3:07started when I was 20 years old at a
3:10company called Capital Group, and I was
3:13introduced to the firm by Art Laffer.
3:16Now, Art Laffer, he's one of the most
3:19important economists of our time. He
3:20created something called the Laffer
3:22Curve. He's advised most presidents
3:25since President Nixon, and he's advising
3:29President Trump as well. And how is
3:32these five big innovation platforms that
3:34you speak of, how is that going to have
3:37an impact on
3:39the average person's life? Like, why do
3:41they need to know this stuff?
3:43How is it going to change their
3:44decision-making and change their career
3:47and Now that the world is moving so
3:50quickly into this new world,
3:53uh and Bitcoin has become so successful
3:57an investment, many people are trying to
4:00figure out, okay, how how do I get
4:03involved with the new world? And when I
4:07say get on the right side of change, we
4:09think there's going to be a lot of
4:10disruption to the traditional world
4:13order. And when I say that in terms of
4:16people understanding what I mean,
4:18I think many people think Apple is a
4:20very safe investment because huge hoard
4:23of cash, very successful smartphone, you
4:27know, number one market share of
4:30smartphones
4:32in terms of profitability, by far.
4:36And yet, we can tell you, and this is
4:39one of what's called the Mag 6 that led
4:41the stock market over the last few
4:43years.
4:44The top six stocks.
4:45The top six stocks, the market was very
4:47narrowly focused on this ilk of stock,
4:50and we were saying, you know what?
4:53Apple is probably going to be disrupted
4:56by artificial intelligence.
4:58And one of the reasons we started asking
5:01questions very early is what is the
5:05ultimate mobile device? Ultimately, it's
5:08going to be an autonomous vehicle.
5:12Apple should have been all over that,
5:14and they were trying, and we saw one
5:16management turnover after another. This
5:19is an AI project, and what we were
5:22learning as they were turning that team
5:25over
5:26time and again is
5:29they they weren't getting AI right. They
5:31were not positioning correctly. You're
5:33concerned for Apple?
5:35I think Apple
5:37it has so much cash, it has such a loyal
5:40customer base. Uh it will be fine, but
5:44maybe
5:45its revenue growth has slowed to almost
5:48nothing.
5:49And so, maybe it'll be a mature cash
5:52cow. That's not what we do. We invest in
5:56technologically enabled disruptive
5:58innovation. AI is the biggest
6:01technological disruption in history. And
6:05if they're not going to get it right,
6:07we're not going to be there. So, if I
6:09want to invest in AI, if I agree with
6:11you, Cathie, and I say to you, you know,
6:12I think I think you're right that AI is
6:14the biggest technological wave coming
6:16into shore and the biggest opportunity,
6:19how how should I be investing my money?
6:22In in in your view, how are you
6:23investing your money to capitalize on
6:24AI? Many people used to invest in AI
6:28through one stock. That was Nvidia. That
6:31was the check-the-box, I own the GPU,
6:35the chip manufacturer, which is the most
6:38important chip manufacturer in the AI
6:42age. And its valuation, meaning
6:45its
6:47price relative to earnings, um really
6:50got up to very heady levels. And we were
6:53saying at the time, well, if Nvidia's
6:56valuation is correct, there there there
6:59are going to be a lot of other winners.
7:01Who are they?
7:03Uh well, our largest position in the
7:05flagship strategy, ARKK, is Tesla.
7:10And as we were trying to help people
7:12understand why we were swapping away
7:15from Nvidia to stocks like Tesla and
7:19Palantir, which is a software provider,
7:22um we were trying to explain that this
7:26new world around AI is going to happen
7:29very quickly.
7:30And uh Tesla is the largest AI project
7:35on Earth. Uh I posted that on X, and
7:38Elon liked it, so it must be true.
7:42But it is true if our research is
7:44correct. Uh we believe that um
7:48the entire ecosystem associated with
7:51autonomous
7:53uh taxi networks is going to be worth 8
7:57to 10 trillion dollars in terms of
8:00revenue generation in the next 5 to 10
8:03years. And if you want to put that in
8:05context, the the entire GDP of the world
8:08today is about 130 trillion. So, 10
8:12trillion is going to move the needle.
8:15Tesla are launching their first cyber
8:18taxi, I believe, in Austin in June,
8:20potentially.
8:20Yes, it So, the cyber cabs will launch
8:23next year, but in Austin in June, those
8:27will be Model Ys. And I'm looking to buy
8:31another Model Y because it will in
8:33effect be a cyber cab. Okay. And if I
8:36chose to, I could have my
8:39Model Y drive me to work and then let it
8:42out for the day and earn money on it,
8:45have it pick me up at the end of the
8:47night. And some people will do that, and
8:49Tesla will provide the platform for
8:51that. I think a lot of people don't
8:52realize just how much of the economy is
8:55about driving. Yes.
8:57So, taxis, deliveries, all these kinds
8:59of things. It's a huge Is it the single
9:01I think it's the single biggest employer
9:02in the world. Yes, transportation,
9:05broadly defined. Yes. And And it's not
9:08just on the ground, of course.
9:11As we've studied autonomous taxis
9:15moving forward, we believe the cost of
9:18transportation will come down fairly
9:19dramatically. So,
9:21in the US today, an Uber costs roughly
9:26two to four dollars per mile.
9:29Um at scale, now this may not be for 5
9:32to 10 years, but this is the direction
9:35that Tesla certainly is headed. We
9:37believe that Tesla will be able to offer
9:40a service for 25 cents per mile.
9:44And because of that, we think there will
9:47be much more congestion in the roads.
9:50When you cut the price of something, you
9:51get more of it. And that led us into the
9:55air. And so, we've been studying
9:58studying EVTOLs. Um What's an EVTOL?
10:00EVTOL is an electric vehicle takeoff and
10:03landing.
10:05Like a drone type of
10:06but for for people. Yeah. So we own
10:09Archer in our portfolio. And of course
10:12AI is a part of this new world as well.
10:15Um and it's a part of the defense world
10:18as well as we are trying to save our
10:22soldiers and um
10:25and move out there with autonomous
10:27drones. So autonomous
10:29uh mobility on the ground, in the skies,
10:32ultimately on the water.
10:35So so Tesla. So that's one big We we
10:38think that's going to be the biggest in
10:41the short term in terms of revenue
10:43generation, the biggest application of
10:45AI. We think the most profound
10:49application of AI is going to be in
10:51healthcare.
10:52Because of AI, and this is already
10:55beginning to happen.
10:57Uh
10:57we are able to diagnose
11:00cancer with a blood test in stage one.
11:06Think about that. If you discover cancer
11:08in stage one, you can save most people.
11:12Crazy. Right? And maybe even before
11:15stage one. Why? This is the convergence
11:18of sequencing technologies. So DNA, RNA,
11:23protein sequencing
11:26uh technologies,
11:28and then the third uh technology that is
11:32breakthrough and already making a
11:34difference is CRISPR gene editing. The
11:38convergence of those three technologies
11:41is beginning to cure disease. So uh a
11:45company called CRISPR Therapeutics,
11:48which is one of the largest in our ARKG
11:51fund and in the top 10 in our ARKK fund,
11:56uh has developed a therapy
11:59uh to cure sickle cell disease with and
12:03beta thalassemia. Both of those are
12:05blood-related diseases
12:08with one treatment.
12:10Think about that. Now, the
12:11preconditioning for that is gruesome.
12:13It's It's It involves It's almost like
12:16chemotherapy, uh which is going to
12:18change. Uh but nonetheless, there's huge
12:20demand for it because, you know, these
12:22people go to the emergency room 10 to 20
12:27times per year for blood transfusions to
12:30save their lives.
12:32Of course they're going to go through a
12:34tough regimen. They want to live a more
12:36normal life. Uh so it's already
12:38generating revenue. Both Both of those
12:40are already generating revenue for
12:43CRISPR Therapeutics and a company called
12:45Vertex. So this this
12:47Well, there's three or four different
12:48companies you've mentioned here. Tesla,
12:49the other one was Archer.
12:51Archer is the EVTOL company, yes. So
12:53it's your flying cars, basically.
12:55They're your drone cars. Yes. And CRISPR
12:57and Tesla. So if I start with Tesla, you
12:59were bullish on Tesla. You were making
13:02big predictions about Tesla before
13:03pretty much anyone else out there. I
13:05think in 2015. Mhm. And at the time in
13:082015, you said that you believed the
13:10stock would get above 4,000, roughly.
13:13Right, on the old stock.
13:14Yeah, on the before the stock split. And
13:16you were right by some significant
13:17margin. Um
13:19I think you predicted it would be 4,000
13:20before the stock stock splits. And I
13:22think at its peak, that equates to about
13:2618,000, maybe 12,000 at its peak. Yes,
13:30well
13:30region. We We We were right about two
13:35early years
13:37or Tesla got to where we believed it
13:40would go two years before most expected.
13:44You know, in 2018 and 19, many people,
13:48as Elon was dis discussing
13:51and describing production hell for the
13:53Model 3,
13:55um many people thought the company would
13:57go bankrupt.
13:58And uh and yet we knew
14:02that if Elon Musk
14:04could create a reusable rocket that
14:08could land on a barge
14:11in the water, he would be able to figure
14:14out how to produce at scale the Model 3.
14:18That was to us a simple um conclusion.
14:22Now, as in hindsight, as we're learning
14:25from Tesla, production hell, and they
14:29themselves were worried. That's why Elon
14:31slept on the floor in the production
14:33factory and just became maniacally
14:35involved, which is how he works uh as uh
14:39So yes, and now our prediction, the
14:41stock is I'm not going to be exactly
14:44right on this, 270 280 uh dollars. Uh
14:48our prediction in five years is 2,600.
14:52And 90% of that valuation comes not from
14:57the electric vehicle, but from this
15:00robotaxi platform. Uh because the
15:04electric car, if you think about it, is,
15:08you know, a one-shot sale. You know,
15:10sell and hope they come back when
15:11they're replacing their car. This
15:13essentially means that we'll be driving
15:15cars that we can
15:18click a button and then then it becomes
15:20an autonomous taxi. So I go on holiday,
15:22I have my my Tesla car at my house. When
15:24I go on holiday, the car turns into a
15:26taxi and starts chauffeuring people
15:27around. It makes me money. But also,
15:29from the consumer's perspective that are
15:30trying to hail a taxi, at any point I
15:33can go on my Tesla app, press a button,
15:35a autonomous car comes to me with no one
15:38driving it, and it takes me to my
15:40destination with no driver at all.
15:42Um and then the recurring revenue model,
15:44I believe, is you subs you subscribe.
15:47probably could It It could be a You
15:50could subscribe to the network or they
15:52could uh
15:53you know, maybe it could be either or,
15:56subscription or ala carte if you don't
15:58think you're going to use it that much.
16:00So
16:02now, when I'm here in the UK and Europe,
16:05many people do not believe what what you
16:08just said. And and they don't because
16:11your regulators have not allowed FSD
16:15here. I think they might I I
16:18Somewhere in Europe, I think they're
16:20beginning to consider it.
16:22Maybe even in the UK here, they have are
16:24considering it.
16:26Um in St. Petersburg, Florida, where
16:28we're based, um
16:30I can go from my house to anywhere,
16:34and
16:36flawlessly the car will take me there.
16:38Now, we still have to sit in the
16:40driver's seat for now, but in June uh or
16:45soon thereafter, when they turn the
16:48system on, if regulators permit. Right
16:51now, we're state by state. I think
16:53that's going to change so that we'll
16:55have federal regulations so that this
16:57can happen a lot faster. One other thing
17:00about Tesla, though, in that 2,600
17:03uh dollar number,
17:04we do not include much for humanoid
17:07robots.
17:08Now,
17:10I
17:11This And and this is happening faster
17:13than we thought.
17:14Um
17:15she And the reason it's happening faster
17:17is humanoid robots,
17:20they are the convergence of the same
17:23three technologies or innovation
17:25platforms as robotaxis.
17:28Robo robots, robotics. So actuators and
17:33so forth, getting them to work.
17:35Energy storage, battery operated. And
17:37AI. Mhm. So Tesla's way ahead of the
17:41game on humanoid robots. And yet we have
17:43very little. Now, Elon thinks that the
17:47humanoid robot business is going to
17:50dwarf the robotaxi business. And we
17:53think he's right, uh but longer term. So
17:57as I mentioned, we expect all in, around
18:00the world, including China, not just
18:02Tesla, but the entire ecosystem, an 8 to
18:0510 trillion dollar market uh in the next
18:09five to 10 years for humanoid robots.
18:13Uh we expect a 26 trillion dollar
18:16revenue market. Now, that's going to be
18:19a little further along. Uh robotaxis
18:22will happen faster, but it may not be as
18:26distant as we were once thinking.
18:30For anyone that doesn't know, humanoid
18:31robots are basically robots that we'll
18:33have in our home and at work. Mhm. So
18:36these are There was a video that I think
18:37um Elon retweeted the other day showing
18:39one of the human humanoid robots
18:40dancing.
18:41Dancing, yes.
18:42Was that real? I was like looking at
18:43that video thinking, surely that's not
18:44real. But he confirmed, I believe, that
18:46it was real.
18:47Yes. Yes. Now, when we went to the
18:50cybercab event,
18:52uh there were some humanoid robots
18:54dancing there, but they were tethered
18:56and they were remotely controlled.
18:58Yeah. Uh now, cybercab, I think, was
19:01About a year ago.
19:02Yes, maybe. So since then,
19:05they've been able to untether them, and
19:08uh I do believe that those that dancing
19:10robot was was um
19:13not tethered and not remotely
19:15controlled. It was quite shocking to see
19:17a robot doing that, because if a robot
19:20can have that dexterity and mobility,
19:24and then you overlay that with the AI
19:26technologies that are accelerating
19:27rapidly, it begs the question.
19:30And the question is quite clear, which
19:31is what about humans? Yes.
19:34Um and just to put a finer,
19:37you know, note on this, um
19:40Elon will not be satisfied until these
19:43robots can thread a needle.
19:46So that's where we're going. What does
19:48that mean for humans? So, you know, the
19:51history of technology
19:54is that it has been a net job creator
19:58throughout history.
19:59But, humanoid robots are getting awfully
20:02close to what we do, right? So, it's a
20:05good question. I I think creativity is a
20:08big part of that, ingenuity and
20:09creativity. And, you know, I think
20:12there's going to be a
20:13they're going to be a
20:14lot of new inventions uh in the future.
20:18So, let's see what those are. But, even
20:20today, there's something called vibe
20:22coding. Have you heard of it?
20:24Okay.
20:25Because we've moved into the world of
20:28natural language programming. What is
20:32vibe coding for someone that doesn't
20:33know? It's
20:34Vibe coding means you know a natural
20:37language. I know We all know a natural
20:40language. Ours is English for the most
20:42part, but it could be any language. Um
20:45we're going to be able to go to chat GPT
20:50or to especially now, they just
20:52launched, I think, last week something
20:53called Codex, Replit, uh and Anthropic's
20:58fantastic for for um
21:01programming. And, we'll say, "This is
21:03what I'm attempting to do." in English
21:05language. And I And I've seen demos of
21:07this just internally. We We're going to
21:10replace some of our software that we're
21:12buying from outsiders and customize it
21:15for us because, you know, we don't have
21:17to buy off the shelf anymore. One size
21:20fits all. I think there's going to be a
21:22lot more customization and
21:25personalization
21:26and creativity explosion here. You know,
21:29it's interesting that this is happening
21:31when the demographic profile of the
21:33developed world is as it is. Uh we have
21:37a very low unemployment rate in the US.
21:40I know the unemployment rates in Europe
21:41and the UK have been dropping
21:44to much lower levels than where where
21:46they were stuck for years. I remember
21:48thinking, "Wow, double digits."
21:50Uh
21:51we have a demographic issue. I mean, if
21:53you if you watch what uh
21:56Elon Musk worries about the most, he he
21:59worries about the population implosion
22:03uh because
22:04Collapse? Uh collapse. Collapse in
22:06population in the developed world um
22:09because we're not uh
22:11uh
22:12we're not producing children above the
22:14fertility rate. We're We are setting up
22:17for a shrinkage with China's going
22:20there, Japan is going there.
22:22And so, we're going to need productivity
22:26uh
22:27productivity to help us if we can't find
22:30human beings.
22:32Uh okay. So, you're So, you're saying
22:34that the ro- robotics and AI could
22:36actually fill the gap that we lose in
22:38terms of productivity because our
22:39society's going to be like an inverted
22:41pyramid. It's going to be more um
22:43elderly people and less young people.
22:44Yes. Yes.
22:46are going to
22:47Yes, absolutely. It's Productivity is
22:50going to be essential. So, as we're
22:52looking at real growth ahead and mhm
22:56when you think about real growth
22:59uh you should be thinking, "Okay,
23:00somebody's benefiting from this." Um and
23:04I'm going to set what I I'm going to set
23:06up the number here uh by describing what
23:09has happened historically. If you look
23:12from 1500
23:14to 1900
23:16and you try and figure out what real GDP
23:20growth was back then, real economic
23:22growth
23:23um as best as uh Brett Winton, our chief
23:27futurist, in consultation with academics
23:30can determine.
23:32It was roughly 0.6%
23:36per year.
23:37And then we had the Industrial
23:40Revolution.
23:41Uh we had
23:43the internal combustion engine,
23:44telephone, electricity.
23:47And for the past 125
23:49years, real GDP growth has been 3%.
23:55And and most li- living standards have
23:59gone up over time. Some more than
24:01others. I know that's a debate, but most
24:04have gone up.
24:06If we as we look forward
24:09based on the five innovation platforms
24:12around which we have centered our
24:13research and investing
24:15if we're right, real GDP growth in the
24:18next five years could accelerate to
24:207.3%.
24:23And that gives you a sense of uh
24:27the economic uh
24:29activity, wealth generation out there.
24:32And
24:33what when we are presenting to
24:37investors, we are actually presenting to
24:39them not only because they're investors
24:43but because they have children or
24:46grandchildren who need to adapt to this
24:48new world. And our mantra in giving away
24:51our research, which we do
24:53is get on the right side of change. We
24:56also do podcasts.
24:58Um we we try We do a lot of outreach
25:02because we think this is a very
25:04important moment in time.
25:06Uh seize the moment, grab hold of these
25:09new technologies
25:11because that growth rate is more than
25:14twice where we've been. And if you are
25:16on the right side of change we think the
25:19opportunities are going to be enormous.
25:21Uh investment opportunities and job
25:23opportunities. Yeah, I feel like I've I
25:26feel like I'm
25:29I feel like I can't figure out what
25:33how the displacement rate
25:35meets the creation rate.
25:38So, the destruction rate of of current
25:40jobs will meet the creation rate of new
25:42jobs because many of these new jobs I I
25:45guess there's some of them we can't
25:46predict yet. I I understand that. But,
25:48even the ones that we can't predict yet
25:50would need to be inherently
25:53human, i.e. need the skills of a human
25:57for them to be occupied by by humans.
26:00Um so, what category of stuff is that?
26:02Like, my my girlfriend's a breathwork
26:04practitioner. She's upstairs now with 10
26:06women and she's teaching them
26:07breathwork.
26:07Okay. So, she's fine. Yeah? Like, cuz
26:10they're doing that in person, what
26:11whatever. She's fine.
26:12Well, and
26:13maybe she's not if people decide
26:15it on chat GPT. Yeah, on chat GPT. But,
26:18but if they want to be with a group of
26:21women
26:22Yeah. and, you know, learn from an
26:26expert whom they respect. There's as
26:28much the social experience. That's going
26:30to become more important. Relationships
26:33are going to become more important. Many
26:34people in our business
26:36I think are going to be out of jobs
26:38because
26:39uh the business has become really
26:42nothing I I shouldn't be this
26:45disrespectful. It's not quite right.
26:47But, uh at all. Uh but you know, so many
26:50are just hugging benchmarks
26:53uh whether it's S&P 500 or MSCI World or
26:58the Nasdaq that a machine can do that. A
27:02machine can do that easily. And that is
27:04what passive investing is is machines
27:06doing it.
27:08I think in order to earn a place in the
27:10new world, you've got to add a lot of
27:13value, more value than a machine can.
27:16So, in our case, we're saying "Okay,
27:19well, our stocks are not in those
27:21benchmarks." Uh and therefore
27:25you know, they're they're We are doing
27:28original research trying to figure out
27:30who they are and where they are, these
27:32these companies that are going to
27:34transform the world. Why can't AI
27:36replace what you're doing in terms of
27:38So, and we think about that all the
27:40time. So, AI
27:42can
27:44use pattern recognition. It's all based
27:47on history, right? Uh it can use pattern
27:50recognition, maybe, to do what we're
27:53doing.
27:55What are the three characteristics that
27:58define an innovation platform for us?
28:01The most important one is they follow
28:04something called Wright's Law, which
28:07measures the learning curve, how fast
28:10the costs are going to decline
28:12with this new technology. Technology is
28:14deflationary. Costs fall over time and
28:18they're passed through into lower prices
28:20or better performance, one or the other.
28:23Um
28:24that is the most important. A machine
28:26can figure that out, I'm sure. But,
28:29asking the questions uh are going to be
28:32important. Like
28:34there wasn't before 2014 when we started
28:38Arc much on autonomous mobility or
28:42eVTOLs
28:43or, for that matter, AI. AI had become
28:46science fiction. There weren't any
28:47breakthroughs in recent years. But, then
28:50we got some breakthroughs. So, could So,
28:54Wright's Law is the first, figure out
28:55that cost curve decline, and and see how
28:58quickly the technology can prolific
29:00proliferate across sectors. That's the
29:03other criteria criterion here. The
29:07technologies
29:09that we are following are going to cut
29:12across economic sectors and apply uh
29:15to more than one group of people. And
29:19then, the third is that these
29:22technologies serve as launching pads for
29:24new technologies. So, in the case of DNA
29:29sequencing, which was the base
29:30technology we needed that
29:34before CRISPR gene editing
29:37uh could be created. We needed to be
29:40able to understand what was mutating in
29:44the genome, where the programming errors
29:46were, so that gene editing could come in
29:50and edit out those programming errors.
29:53And do you think in 5 10 years from now
29:55that unemployment is going to be higher
29:57or lower?
29:58In 5 or 10 years,
30:01um
30:02let's let's assume we don't have a
30:05policy mistake and and a recession. So
30:07just just steady state,
30:09I think it will be the same or lower.
30:14And most of this is because those baby
30:16boomers are retiring.
30:18Uh they
30:19come out of the employment
30:20They come out of the labor force. And uh
30:24and the generations following them are
30:27smaller. Even now what's happening is
30:31uh we're we're passing through the baby
30:34boom echo, meaning the children of the
30:36baby boom. That cohort was
30:40I don't think it was any bigger than the
30:42baby boom uh
30:44baby boom population. Do you think
30:46there's because of the speed of and the
30:48acceleration of AI the like this the
30:52length of careers has radically reduced
30:55cuz you would go to like you'd go to
30:56school, then you go to university, you
30:58qualify as I know an accountant and
31:01that's like a 10-15 year process. You
31:03get a job as an accountant, you start
31:04working your way up. But now with AI
31:05coming in, these some of these jobs are
31:07being
31:08completely annihilated
31:10extremely quickly. At the same time vibe
31:14coding
31:14Yeah. is booming. So I think what's
31:18going to happen and this will be very
31:21healthy for productivity. We're going to
31:22have a lot more experimentation and
31:24people taking risks on themselves. Uh
31:27and maybe this idea of a corporation as
31:30we know it is going to change radically.
31:32You know, crypto is enabling distributed
31:37autonomous organizations.
31:39Uh just like Bitcoin, there's there's no
31:43no one governing it, right?
31:47The it's a distributed network.
31:50And you know, let's see how these do and
31:54how vibe coding
31:57and AI integrate into the crypto I and
32:01I'm going to stop calling it crypto
32:03because it should be called digital
32:04assets world, which legitimizes it more.
32:07Crypto sounds nefarious. Digital assets
32:10is where you know, more than
32:13young people and uh I'll say
32:16young people are spending more than half
32:19of their discretionary their free time
32:21online.
32:22And so property ownership online is
32:25becoming more important. It's it's being
32:28legitimized by the way people are
32:30spending their time. On this point of
32:32robotics and AI, your your biggest
32:33position I believe is Tesla, isn't it in
32:35your fund?
32:36Yes. Um
32:37but obviously Elon decided that he
32:39wanted to go into politics.
32:41He wanted to do
32:42Oh, Elon. the Department of Government
32:44Efficiency called Dodge. So teaming up
32:46with Trump to try and eliminate
32:48government waste. Now as an investor
32:50Mhm.
32:51you must
32:54not love that. Well, the I I have two um
32:58I have Cuz it did impact
33:00two points of view.
33:00performance of the company. Do you know
33:01I have I drive a Tesla when I go to
33:03America and it was the first time ever
33:06on the last trip to America in January.
33:07I live in LA now. Oh. Um what what I'm
33:10driving my you know, my cybertruck. It's
33:12the full self-driving. It's incredible.
33:14But it was the first time ever I
33:15thought, [ __ ] I like I could be
33:17attacked. So I probably shouldn't get a
33:19cybertruck. I should probably get
33:21something else cuz I had all these
33:22reports of people being attacked.
33:23Mhm. And so it was quite interesting to
33:25hear in the earnings report which I
33:26listened to that there's been this
33:28decline in revenue in profitability in
33:31vehicle sales growth etc. in Q1 of this
33:34year
33:34Mhm. which I think even Elon in that in
33:36that earnings call highlights is a
33:38consequence of him becoming political.
33:42Yes. Uh I think that surprised him. Uh
33:45um
33:46so
33:47I have many thoughts about this. Our
33:49government has become so bloated, it is
33:53scary. And uh our indebtedness is
33:56growing.
33:58And if we want to remain the reserve
34:00currency of the world we're at risk of
34:03of losing it and and on our tail is the
34:06whole
34:07digital asset world, right? So
34:10um
34:11government spending is taxation.
34:15It's either taxation that's going to
34:17happen immediately or will happen in the
34:19future
34:20or will happen through inflation, which
34:22is the most regressive tax at all. So I
34:25think his the the sentiment was was
34:29right in terms of you know, getting in
34:31there and seeing what technology can do
34:34for the government, which is really
34:35what's happening. I'm watching it in the
34:37FDA how they're starting to use AI. It's
34:41phenomenal what's happening.
34:43Uh so
34:45the question I usually get So I I'm very
34:47happy that uh
34:50half of the solution is understanding
34:52the problem, that someone is in there
34:55with that focus and determination. He of
34:58course has said he's stepping away uh
35:00this month as a matter of fact to spend
35:03more time with his companies. Which you
35:05must be happy about.
35:06Well, of course I'm happy about it, but
35:08I I have with the exception of this
35:11political dynamic, I don't think
35:14that Elon
35:16uh not being there on a day-to-day basis
35:19is what has caused the problem in the
35:21first quarter. It was much more macro.
35:25We had a negative quarter in real GDP
35:28growth in the first quarter. So macro
35:31which is hitting everyone and the
35:33overlay of this political dynamic. The
35:36news cycle, thank goodness, moves fast
35:39and so we'll we'll be through that I
35:41think. And by the way, there are news
35:43reports even this weekend saying those
35:47who were feeling about him you know,
35:51as it relates to Dodge and you know, one
35:54party are having a change of heart
35:57because tax rates are going to come down
36:00because we're being more disciplined on
36:02the on the government spending side.
36:06Elon's way of
36:09managing his companies is to attract the
36:13best and the brightest, not only
36:16scientists, engineers but also business
36:19people.
36:21Uh they these are people who want to
36:23solve the hardest problems in the world.
36:26Um he sets a timeline
36:29that seems uh reasonable to him for
36:33milestones to occur.
36:35And he doesn't interfere unless they
36:38start missing those milestones or the
36:40timing of those milestones. Then he gets
36:43involved and that's where you hear he'll
36:45go in and he'll just fire people
36:47wholesale and you know, and and you
36:51know, get the program going again. And
36:53he's he's done that certainly at Tesla.
36:56He's done that at all of his companies.
36:59And so he's really
37:00troubleshooter-in-chief.
37:02Once he understands and has set a
37:04strategy
37:06he then becomes troubleshooter-in-chief.
37:08Have you met him? Oh yes, we did
37:10actually. Our
37:11first podcast with him was in 2019. Oh I
37:15saw that podcast.
37:16production hell. Yeah. And uh we were so
37:20happy. So as you know, we have a social
37:23strategy, so we push our research out
37:25through social media as we give it away
37:28or as we're evolving it. And uh he liked
37:34a piece of research that Tasha Keeney
37:37had put out on autonomous back then. And
37:40I was on a phone call I couldn't get
37:42off, but I heard this whooping and
37:44screaming through the office and I I I
37:47thought it sounded good. It wasn't an
37:48emergency, so I I didn't have to leave
37:50that call, but I got out. I said, "What
37:52happened?" "Elon." And I said, "Okay,
37:55ask him if we can do a podcast." And we
37:57were there the next week. Oh,
37:59incredible. Yeah. What do you think of
38:00him as a entrepreneur?
38:02I think he's the Thomas Edison of our
38:05age in terms of uh in terms of his
38:09um
38:11in innovative ingenuity and
38:16I also think having met him a number of
38:19times, I think he's a very good person.
38:22He wants to do the right thing. If I had
38:24to say one thing, he wants to do the
38:26right thing to transform
38:30the lot of most of humanity. And he
38:34started
38:35uh with Tesla, SpaceX and Tesla
38:40Tesla, you know, was a an environmental
38:43move. Which I think a lot of people
38:46attacking his cars who are probably very
38:49um
38:50supportive of the environmental
38:53movement, uh they they've forgotten.
38:56Sending
38:58uh
38:58a rocket to Mars and with humanoid
39:01robots and ultimately people um he
39:04thinks will transform
39:07life on Earth as well because as we've
39:10learned from space history uh what we
39:13learn about material science and
39:17technologies that help us break through
39:20into these very difficult or problems to
39:24solve is going to help us here on Earth
39:27as well. Uh so I think he's a very good
39:30person and wants to do the right thing.
39:33That if I had to describe him, that's
39:35what I say other than genius of our
39:37time.
39:39I often wonder, right? You know, cuz
39:40he's had such a impact on the world in
39:41many, many ways through the companies he
39:43started. I think the uh the biggest risk
39:46really is just his own his own health.
39:48Doesn't seem to sleep much.
39:50You know though, he he says that he does
39:52sleep. I think he he he he recommends, I
39:55think, if I'm right on this, getting 7
39:56hours sleep a night.
39:59Uh
40:00uh and
40:01yes, but when when he is focused,
40:05uh you know it. And I mean, people even
40:09look and they they There were many
40:12pictures of him, whether it was
40:14standing, you know, with other policy
40:16makers,
40:18and then he zones into something you
40:20know he's zoned in and thinking about
40:22only that and a problem that he wants to
40:25solve. So, You've invested what, just
40:27over 2 billion in Tesla? Let's see. So,
40:30it would be roughly, yes. In that
40:33region?
40:33Mhm.
40:34Bitcoin. Mhm. You invested in Bitcoin
40:37very, very early. What was the the first
40:39price what you bought Bitcoin for in I
40:42think it was 2015?
40:44Yes. It was in
40:47um the summer of 2015.
40:50Uh we got in at roughly $250.
40:54Uh today it's $104,000,
40:56I think, roughly. So, we did get in very
40:59early.
41:00And we knew we were onto something
41:04uh really when people were making fun of
41:06us saying, "Okay, that's a marketing
41:08trick. You're you're new to our business
41:10and you know, new to our to the new fund
41:13world and uh you're trying to attract
41:16attention." And we were thinking, "Wow,
41:17they have no idea how much research
41:19we've done on this."
41:21And Art Laffer,
41:23uh my professor, again, from USC, we had
41:26him uh
41:28we had him read our first white paper on
41:31Bitcoin.
41:33Bitcoin, could it serve the three roles
41:36of money? So, means of exchange, what we
41:39use every day uh to to buy things,
41:43a store of value, uh like gold,
41:47and unit of account. Would prices be
41:50quoted in terms of Bitcoin?
41:53Chris Bradysky was our first analyst on
41:55Bitcoin,
41:56wrote the paper, Art Reddit,
41:59and you know, from a added to it
42:02enormously in terms of economic theory,
42:05which was great for us.
42:07And then he said to us, he said, "This
42:09is what I've been waiting for since the
42:12US closed the gold window in 1971.
42:16A rules-based
42:19global
42:21monetary system
42:23like Bretton Woods under the gold
42:25exchange standard."
42:27And I said, "Art, that's a very big
42:30idea.
42:31Uh how big is it?"
42:33And he said, "Well, how big is the the
42:35monetary base of the US?
42:37Uh back then it was 4 and 1/2 trillion.
42:41And Bitcoin's market cap or network
42:44value was 6 billion."
42:46And I said,
42:48"Okay, that's a very big idea."
42:50And we were trying to get it into our
42:52portfolios. Regulators were hesitant and
42:56but I bought it right then for for
42:59myself and haven't sold it and I'm very
43:02happy with it. You bought it for
43:04yourself personally?
43:05Personally, because we couldn't buy it.
43:07$250.
43:09Uh so, we couldn't buy it back then, but
43:11we finally got through the regulatory
43:13process and we were able to put the New
43:17York Stock Exchange said, "Okay, you can
43:19put a 1% position in the portfolio."
43:23And it was of a grantor trust called
43:25GBTC.
43:26So, we did. And we just never sold it.
43:29They didn't tell us we had to keep it at
43:31at 1%. So, Oh, it's risen to be more.
43:34Oh, yes, it it ballooned. And what is it
43:37about Bitcoin that you believe
43:40was and is still a a good investment
43:43opportunity for the average person? Yes.
43:46So,
43:47at this at this price, it's about a $2
43:51trillion uh market
43:52uh market cap.
43:54And so, halfway to that original 4 and
43:571/2 trillion,
43:59but our price target actually has
44:01expanded since then.
44:03Um because it's not just a global
44:07monetary system.
44:10It is a new asset class.
44:13And that's a very big idea as well. What
44:16makes a new asset class? And we haven't
44:19had one truly since
44:22equities in the 1600s. When you say a
44:25new asset class, you mean a completely
44:26new category of
44:28of funding companies, yes. Right?
44:31So, an asset class would be something
44:32like technology is an asset class,
44:34right? No, it would be like stocks,
44:37bonds, commodities,
44:39real estate.
44:41This is a new asset class and most
44:44people will agree with that. We we did a
44:47study on it.
44:49If this asset does not perform like
44:53other assets, in other words, it
44:55provides diversification for funds.
44:59And because it is behaving differently,
45:04institutions have to consider it
45:06uh because they're competing against
45:08each other and if one puts it in,
45:11they all know they're competing against
45:13each other. So, others have to consider
45:15it.
45:16And uh we believe that part of the
45:20opportunity has not been tapped. And
45:23just to put some numbers on this, right
45:26now,
45:28we're approaching 20 million Bitcoin
45:31outstanding. Which means the number of
45:34Bitcoin that
45:35uh have been minted
45:38over time
45:40uh by Bitcoin miners. So, there's 21
45:43million in total, right? There will be
45:45at the end of the minting process, 21
45:49million. So, we have only 1 million to
45:52go. Yeah. Uh 1 million would be
45:57what is that?
46:00That would be a hundred billion dollars
46:02worth, a little more than that, right
46:04now. So, just for someone that might not
46:06know much about Bitcoin, Bitcoin is
46:07mined using computers and so far they've
46:10mined 20 million of them and there's 1
46:12million of them left to mine. Mhm. Yeah.
46:15So, institutions
46:18really just started considering Bitcoin
46:21cuz the SEC gave the
46:23uh the the green light
46:25uh to Bitcoin with uh the the approval
46:30of the spot Bitcoin ETF in January of
46:33last year.
46:35And it takes a while for institutions to
46:37do their research and and commit.
46:39Uh and so, they're just now committing
46:42and there's only a hundred billion
46:45dollars
46:46of new ma- market cap uh that is going
46:51to be created, whereas they have
46:55trillions of dollars under management.
46:58Um and so, we think there will be a lot
47:02of incremental demand and uh to satisfy
47:07a lot of that demand, someone's going to
47:09have to sell.
47:11Which means the price goes up.
47:12Which yeah, if people don't want to sell
47:15because Bitcoin's been awfully good. And
47:18our forecast, right now it's um
47:21right now the Bitcoin's around a
47:23hundred, a hundred five thousand. Our
47:26forecast
47:28uh for 2030
47:30is 1.5 million dollars.
47:34And we do that uh
47:37uh
47:38the building blocks for that, the three
47:40biggest building blocks
47:42are institutional, which has barely
47:44started,
47:46uh store of value or digital gold. Young
47:50people
47:51are much more
47:53uh
47:54comfortable with digital gold than gold.
47:58So, on the institutional side, that
48:00means institutions, investment
48:02institutions start investing in it. Mhm.
48:04Young people start investing it in it as
48:06a way to save and store their money.
48:07Yes. Yes.
48:09And then uh the
48:12the the the the very important use case
48:15that many people do not discuss is how
48:19important Bitcoin and stablecoins, which
48:23are backed by US Treasuries,
48:25are going to become to the emerging
48:28markets.
48:30Uh in emerging markets, many of them are
48:33at the whim of policy makers who uh
48:37show no discipline in fiscal or monetary
48:39policy. And so, they they're used to
48:42going through booms and busts and booms
48:44and bailed out by the IMF and they need
48:49an insurance policy. So, if you're in
48:51Venezuela, you need a currency that's
48:53going to be stable.
48:54Exactly.
48:55Well, this Bitcoin is
48:58uh so, stablecoins are stable vis-à-vis
49:01uh the dollar.
49:03Uh Bitcoin is more of an investment
49:07because
49:08it does appreciate over time. Now, you
49:12go through it's volatile, no question,
49:14and that's the first thing people have
49:15to know about it. Uh but it is becoming
49:18less volatile as more and more
49:21investors hold it. So, you think Bitcoin
49:24will potentially
49:26multiply in value by 15 times in the
49:29next 5 years? Mhm.
49:32Wow, that'd be pretty crazy. It's a very
49:34big idea because it is a new asset
49:36class, it does represent a global
49:39monetary system unlike any other digital
49:43asset out there.
49:45Um it is backed by the largest computer
49:48network in the world. The the layer one,
49:52which is the base layer, has not been
49:54hacked. Think about that, since 2009
49:57when it was released, not been hacked.
50:00How many how how many systems can say
50:04that?
50:05And it is a technology. It is native to
50:09the internet. And again,
50:12digital assets or any Bitcoin, Ether,
50:16Solana,
50:18all of them exist because they're vying
50:21to be the native currencies to the
50:23internet. And to to enable smart
50:27contracts
50:29and really transform the financial
50:32services industry. Why did you invest in
50:34Coinbase?
50:36Coinbase is um
50:39an exchange
50:41for for digital assets.
50:45And uh and increasingly derivatives.
50:49It has just It has gone global.
50:52It just bought Deribit, which is the
50:55largest options uh exchange out there.
50:59Uh and it owns a futures. So, it's
51:03really going after uh
51:05the derivatives market where there's a
51:07huge amount of activity, which is
51:09fantastic because it's all legitimizing
51:12digital assets.
51:14And it is the most regulatory compliant
51:17exchange in the world. Um
51:20Binance is another major exchange, but
51:24has had more run-ins with regulators
51:26around the world and really hasn't been
51:28allowed into the United States.
51:30It also wants to become
51:33part of the new payments infrastructure.
51:37And so is evolving strategies that way
51:39as well.
51:41Um we've gotten to know management very
51:43well. They fought the fight against
51:45regulators in a magnificent way, and
51:48they have educated policy makers um
51:52importantly, who understand that this
51:56innovation we almost lost this
51:57innovation to the rest of the world
51:59because of our regulatory stance.
52:01Uh they've helped policy makers
52:04understand that, "Hey,
52:06you know, this this infrastructure is
52:10what developers did not build into the
52:13internet in the early '90s cuz they
52:16didn't know finance or commerce would
52:18take place. That's all this is. It's
52:21that simple, right?" So, if I'm trying
52:23to invest in just to summarize it, if
52:25I'm trying to invest in AI, that you'll
52:27keep positions there and you'll keep
52:28thoughts on companies like Tesla. I
52:30heard you invest in Twilio.
52:32Uh we we had invested in Twilio. They
52:35had a uh they had a management turnover,
52:37so we moved away from that. But uh
52:40Palantir Palantir?
52:42Yes, Palantir is a platform as a service
52:45company, which we think uh is not only
52:48going to help governance move
52:50governments move into the digital age,
52:53like our defense department, and now
52:55it's moving into other departments, but
52:57also these huge huge enterprises
53:01because it's not forcing them to rip and
53:04replace anything. They'll build on top
53:06of whatever technology infrastructure is
53:08there and over time just use usurp the
53:11role of the legacy technologies. So,
53:15very important company we think in uh
53:18the digital age. It's had a very big
53:20run. We have taken profits and, you
53:23know, while it was having a big run,
53:25Nvidia was selling off. It was down more
53:28than 50%. So, we put some of our
53:31Palantir proceeds in back into Nvidia.
53:34Is there anything else in the AI bucket
53:36when you're thinking about stocks? Well,
53:38when you're thinking about uh
53:41chip companies in particular,
53:44uh TSM is the platform for chip
53:48manufacturing. It doesn't matter who
53:51wins. We We do think there are going to
53:54be many more competitors to Nvidia.
53:57Nvidia is still number one. Have you
53:58heard about Grok?
54:00Oh, yes, Grok we are invested in in our
54:03um
54:04in our private fund. Oh, okay. So, just
54:08for people that might be confused. Do
54:09you mean Grok with a Q? Uh yes, that's
54:11that's in our private fund. We own We do
54:13own Grok. And that's a very important
54:15company on the inference side of um
54:19of the equation. I've invested in Grok
54:21as well.
54:22Yeah. I should probably disclaim that.
54:24Well, I think I think you're going to do
54:26very well. Um
54:28So, TSM though is where all the chip
54:31manufacturers go uh for production. It
54:34is the most sophisticated manufacturer
54:36of chips uh in the world. Uh there is
54:39geopolitical risk there. Most of its
54:41business is in Taiwan. It is
54:44diversifying into uh
54:47certainly into the US, and I think even
54:49into Europe. Uh so, I think uh that will
54:53continue to be a very important company
54:55as well. So, what are the What are you
54:57What's your top 10?
54:59In terms of public stocks that anybody
55:00can invest in.
55:02If you had to give me your top 10. So,
55:04I'd have to give you and they're listed
55:06on our website, and I won't go in order,
55:09I'm sure, but of course, Tesla,
55:12Coinbase,
55:14uh Robinhood, uh Roku is uh an operating
55:19system for connected TVs, highly
55:22misunderstood stock. CRISPR
55:24Therapeutics, which uh is
55:27Gene editing?
55:28Gene editing for sickle cell disease and
55:31uh beta thalassemia.
55:33Uh Palantir, I think I've mentioned uh
55:36in the AI software space. Archer just
55:40moved into the top 10. It's the EVTOL
55:44company, which and it also signed a
55:46deal, an exclusive deal on both sides,
55:49which was quite impressive, uh with
55:51Anduril, which Anduril, which is the um
55:55most sophisticated defense tech play uh
56:00and is growing like gangbusters. So, so
56:03that's terrific. Shopify,
56:07uh which is a shopping platform back end
56:11and really using uh AI. Roblox? Oh,
56:16that's the one we're missing. Roblox.
56:19Roblox.
56:19is a game, right? Yes, it's a
56:21user-generated gaming company.
56:25Uh the fascinating and it's also a
56:26social platform.
56:28Uh it started for children younger than
56:3113 years old. And what's interesting
56:35about it is
56:37they've stayed with it because 60% of
56:40its user base now is above 13.
56:42Which is very interesting. It's the
56:45largest user-generated
56:47uh
56:48um
56:48content provider out there.
56:51And what is fascinating about it is I
56:54know one of my friend's daughter has
56:57started her own dress shop on Roblox,
57:00and what she doesn't understand is that
57:02she's she's learning about business, but
57:04she's also learning how to code,
57:06especially in this new vibe coding
57:08world. So, I think it's going to be a
57:11very important company going forward.
57:13Uh the the interesting thing about
57:15gaming
57:17and technology transitions is that it is
57:20the only entertainment median medium
57:25that has not fallen apart with
57:28technology transitions.
57:30Mhm.
57:31Um it has actually grown because those
57:34who love their games from 25 years ago
57:38still play them. It's grown with each
57:40technology revolution. So, uh and
57:43user-generated content in gaming is
57:48um the next big thing.
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59:32I will speak to you then.
59:34If you had a thousand dollars to invest
59:36Mhm. and you had to invest it somewhere,
59:39where would you be investing it?
59:43Well,
59:44and how would you be like the general
59:45philosophy towards wealth creation at
59:48such a stage if you had a thousand
59:50dollars? How would you be thinking about
59:51creating wealth for yourself?
59:54A couple of things.
59:56Averaging into
59:59um
1:00:00either an ETF
1:00:03What's an ETF? ETF, exchange-traded
1:00:06fund. So, it treats a group of stocks
1:00:10like one stock. Mhm. So, ARKK
1:00:14is
1:00:16it's nearly it's 35 36 stocks,
1:00:21but you can buy them
1:00:23by purchasing ARKK. And you can do that
1:00:26on your mobile phone by downloading
1:00:27do it on your mobile phone.
1:00:29of different apps that allow you to just
1:00:30buy that one ETF, which means you own 35
1:00:32stocks. Yes. And
1:00:35And your team are basically choosing
1:00:36what those 35 stocks are
1:00:38Yes. based on your research. Right. And
1:00:41ARKK are our highest conviction stocks,
1:00:45uh and they they they offer an exposure
1:00:48to all of the innovation platforms that
1:00:51we've talked about. Whereas ARKI here in
1:00:55Europe is focused primarily on
1:00:59artificial intelligence and robotics.
1:01:02Because we think that convergence is
1:01:04going to be pretty explosive. What you
1:01:06don't get there
1:01:09uh and you do get in ARKK,
1:01:13we also have in another very focused
1:01:16fund, ARKG, which is really health care
1:01:20applications of AI. Um and and other
1:01:23health care other health care names that
1:01:26we think uh are going to be pretty
1:01:28transformative in the new world as
1:01:31regulators really understand how
1:01:34important AI is going to become to
1:01:38discovery,
1:01:39uh research, trials, development, uh to
1:01:43diagnostic tests, and to curing disease.
1:01:46Another question popped up, which is
1:01:47about Ethereum and these other
1:01:48cryptocurrencies. Do you invest in any
1:01:50of these these others? Yes, we have uh
1:01:52we have Well, in our public funds, we've
1:01:55put them. I I don't think we can own
1:01:58them here in the UK yet, but in the in
1:01:59the US, uh we have them in um
1:02:03some of our funds, both of them. Mhm.
1:02:06They're key to the financial services
1:02:09re- revolution. So,
1:02:11uh to get people to understand and feel
1:02:13comfortable with that, uh we don't call
1:02:16it the crypto revolution. It's the
1:02:18digital assets revolution, and it's
1:02:20simply the finternet, the financial
1:02:23internet. Okay, so that So, we do. We
1:02:26do. And do you believe Are you more
1:02:27bullish on the price potential of
1:02:29Bitcoin than Ethereum?
1:02:31Yes, we think Bitcoin is the biggest
1:02:34idea. It serves the three three
1:02:37revolutions. Global monetary system,
1:02:40they do not.
1:02:41Um
1:02:43New asset class, they are part of a new
1:02:44asset class, but Bitcoin's going to be
1:02:46the biggest. And new technology, it's
1:02:49the most secure
1:02:51uh blockchain technology out there.
1:02:53What about all these other Solana and
1:02:54all these other So, Ether and Solana, so
1:02:56the big three are the are those are the
1:03:00the big three. Um and we think they'll
1:03:03all be successful, all three of them.
1:03:06Bitcoin the most. We're very interested
1:03:08in stablecoins, but that's just like
1:03:10cash. Uh and you know, there are
1:03:12millions of crypto assets out there. We
1:03:15think most of them die. Is there any way
1:03:17to invest in stablecoins?
1:03:20Like how do you invest them in in the
1:03:21stablecoin?
1:03:22right now, it is through Coinbase. They
1:03:24have a deal with Circle.
1:03:27Um any any revenue that Circle
1:03:30generates, it's it's it's stablecoin is
1:03:33USDC.
1:03:35Yeah. Any revenue, they split 50/50
1:03:38uh in US.
1:03:40Uh Circle itself has announced that it
1:03:42is going public, and so we're looking
1:03:45forward to that.
1:03:46And what's what's the the sort of
1:03:48psychology or mentality one has to adopt
1:03:50to be a good investor?
1:03:52Depends what you've bought. If you buy a
1:03:56strategy like ours, which would be in
1:03:58the aggressive growth strategy,
1:04:01put it in you know, averaging in over
1:04:04time, just like with Bitcoin as I
1:04:05mentioned earlier.
1:04:07Uh averaging in over time
1:04:08What does averaging in mean? Averaging
1:04:10in means, you know, buy a little every
1:04:13month, maybe every payday.
1:04:16I think one of my daughters was buying
1:04:18Bitcoin every week, but not a Bitcoin.
1:04:21She couldn't do that. A Satoshi, you
1:04:23know, so
1:04:24And
1:04:25close your eyes. Like you're this is a
1:04:28long-term investment. If we're right, uh
1:04:32according to our analysis. Now, you This
1:04:35is our research, our analysis, no
1:04:37promises. We can't do that, but
1:04:41according to our research, the
1:04:43technologies around which we have
1:04:44centered our research
1:04:47uh and which have focused our
1:04:48investments,
1:04:50they we believe will go up more than
1:04:54tenfold in the next five to ten years.
1:04:59And that's how much explosive growth we
1:05:02have ahead of us as these technologies
1:05:05converge
1:05:07and create incredible opportunities for
1:05:09investors.
1:05:11And you know, I'm hearing a lot of
1:05:12invest a lot of people um as they get
1:05:16into investing, of course they have
1:05:18their day jobs, but once they have
1:05:22accrued enough,
1:05:24you know, they're making choices about
1:05:27dialing down their day jobs and spending
1:05:29more time investing. You asked, what are
1:05:31some of the jobs of the future going to
1:05:32be? I think individual investors
1:05:35are going to be providing for themselves
1:05:38if they are investing on the right side
1:05:40of change. So, if you're right, that
1:05:42means that by investing your fund, I'd
1:05:43make a thousand percent return roughly.
1:05:46Yes, no promises, but this is all based
1:05:48on research, and you can find it in our
1:05:51big ideas.
1:05:53Uh big ideas 2025 is on our website,
1:05:57ark-invest.com.
1:06:00Uh and you can find a lot more
1:06:03of information about our funds on
1:06:07ark-funds
1:06:09uh dot com. And I should probably say
1:06:11this is not in investing advice.
1:06:13It is not, and and I want to make sure
1:06:16Do your own research. You can lose all
1:06:17of your money. Yes. You can lose all of
1:06:19it if you decide to do any of these
1:06:20things. But that's why we put ark-invest
1:06:23separate from the fund site, because
1:06:25that's just research. Learn. Learn what
1:06:27you're investing in, or learn why we've
1:06:31invested uh the the way we have. You
1:06:35know, that's that's what we do all day
1:06:38long is we try and help Well, first of
1:06:40all, we're doing the research. We are
1:06:42making the investments, but I think one
1:06:44of the most important things we do
1:06:47is communicate what we're doing and why
1:06:50we're doing it.
1:06:53What do you think of Trump tariffs,
1:06:56everything that's going on in America at
1:06:57the moment? What's, you know, for the
1:06:59average person, should they be
1:07:00concerned? Are you bullish? Do you think
1:07:02Trump's got it right? If you look at
1:07:04what happened to the equity market when
1:07:07Trump was elected, the stock market. Uh
1:07:09yes, the stock market. It went crazy to
1:07:12the upside, as did our strategy.
1:07:15And why?
1:07:17The promise was
1:07:19deregulation, and that I think is
1:07:21underestimated uh how important it is,
1:07:23because we're strangling in regulation.
1:07:25It's just
1:07:27This is not our DNA. We We got to get
1:07:29out from under this.
1:07:31Lower taxes,
1:07:34lo- lower interest rates is what he
1:07:37wants, of course. Um and lower tariffs.
1:07:42What he didn't tell us
1:07:44was exactly how he was going to go about
1:07:47that process.
1:07:48And it has it has felt chaotic.
1:07:53And I've had to go out and explain
1:07:56what's going on, try to explain what's
1:07:58going on.
1:08:01And I I have to tell you, it scared me
1:08:06silly to see what was going on, because
1:08:09I knew that businesses
1:08:12were paralyzed, and that we could have a
1:08:14mess on our hands.
1:08:17And I certainly com- communicated
1:08:19through my channels. Art communicated
1:08:22through his channels. In fact, I think
1:08:25in one publication, he said, I have
1:08:27never been more scared in my career.
1:08:31We were trying to really get into
1:08:36Trump's head, and and I know President
1:08:38Trump listens to Art, but he also
1:08:40listens to a lot of other people. One of
1:08:42whom was Peter Navarro,
1:08:45who seemed to have
1:08:47a hold on Trump when it came to tariffs.
1:08:51And yet, when I saw Treasury Secretary
1:08:54Bessant really push aside Navarro, and
1:08:57that could only happen with Trump, I
1:08:59knew we were going to be okay. I knew we
1:09:02were going to be okay, because
1:09:03throughout all of this chaos,
1:09:06I think what he is trying to do is not
1:09:10only get tariffs on the US down
1:09:15throughout the world,
1:09:17but maybe more important, get non-tariff
1:09:20trade barriers down. Like for example,
1:09:24I didn't even know the UK would not
1:09:26accept our beef or ethanol.
1:09:29Well, Mhm.
1:09:30now you're accepting our beef and
1:09:32ethanol. I I don't know if I don't know
1:09:34if people in the supermarkets will buy
1:09:36it, but anyway, this was but other
1:09:39countries much many many more non-tariff
1:09:43trade barriers. And so he is just trying
1:09:46to bust that up, you know, make it more
1:09:49visible.
1:09:51You know, for example, Canada, I think
1:09:53they charged a 250% tariff on our milk.
1:09:58And one of President Trump's promises
1:10:01was to take care of the farmers. Okay?
1:10:05That's why you see the rhetoric around
1:10:07Canada. Now, do I agree with his style?
1:10:12I would never do it that way. I'd never
1:10:14do it that way. I and it was
1:10:17unfathomable, you know, for me because
1:10:20he is sensitive to business and he must
1:10:23have known that everything was going to
1:10:24stop.
1:10:25And
1:10:27but he also knows that he has to sound
1:10:31crazy for other people to take him
1:10:33seriously. And he has and people have to
1:10:36believe he will do crazy things in order
1:10:39for people to take him seriously. And he
1:10:41does do crazy things. So, do you think
1:10:43it's going to work out? I do. You do?
1:10:45And I think the stock market is
1:10:47beginning to smell it.
1:10:48If I if I just had to invest in one
1:10:50stock right now, what stock would you
1:10:51recommend I invest in?
1:10:54Okay, well, I have to give you our Your
1:10:56portfolio. So, it'd be Tesla.
1:10:57It would be Tesla if I if I had to give
1:11:00you one stock. Okay, interesting.
1:11:03Because think about it. It is it is a
1:11:06convergence
1:11:08among three of our major platforms. So,
1:11:12robots, energy storage, AI.
1:11:15And it's not stopping with robo-taxis.
1:11:18There's a story beyond that with
1:11:19humanoid robots. And our $2,600 number
1:11:23has nothing for humanoid robots. We just
1:11:26thought it'd be an investment period and
1:11:28you know, the re
1:11:30But I think he's going to start
1:11:31generating not only productivity gains
1:11:34internally,
1:11:35but revenues from humanoid robots. What
1:11:39are you concerned about?
1:11:41In terms of the way that the world is
1:11:43going and everything that's happening.
1:11:44What are the things that keep you up at
1:11:45night? I've got many of concerns, so
1:11:48got many unanswered questions and
1:11:49worries about how things might play out,
1:11:51but keen to hear yours.
1:11:53I am such an optimist. I really do have
1:11:55to dig down deeply. If you'd asked me
1:11:58this a few weeks ago, I would have said,
1:12:00you know, this tariff situation is going
1:12:02to blow the global economy up if we're
1:12:05if we're not careful. So, I'm much more
1:12:09settled about that right now.
1:12:11I'd have to say I am concerned
1:12:15that there are going to be people caught
1:12:18out
1:12:19um by these new technologies and for
1:12:23whatever reason not willing to adapt
1:12:25because there going to be huge
1:12:27opportunities if they do.
1:12:29And so one of the reasons we give away
1:12:31our research, you know, I'm very honored
1:12:35to do a podcast like this is to get that
1:12:38word out.
1:12:40There is so much information available.
1:12:42You can just go to our site and listen
1:12:45to our podcast. And if anything inspires
1:12:48you, go for it because it's going the
1:12:52opportunities are going to be enormous.
1:12:55When you say you're concerned people
1:12:57might get caught out? Caught out in
1:13:00you know, disrupted industries. I mean,
1:13:03we think the whole transportation
1:13:04industry is going to be disrupted. Um we
1:13:09think retail as we know it going to be
1:13:11disrupted as we are
1:13:13Retail is in like shops and stuff and
1:13:15Yes, although if they adapt with more
1:13:18social personal experiences, I think
1:13:20that anything physical you'll want to
1:13:23have a social dynamic associated with
1:13:25it. But in terms of what I think is
1:13:28going to happen to retail is we're going
1:13:31to have our personal shopping assistants
1:13:34and they're going to they're going to
1:13:37anticipate what we want, which I can't
1:13:39wait. I hate shopping. Uh anticipate
1:13:41what we want uh or basically flag
1:13:45something that they know we would like
1:13:47if we would knew it were available. And
1:13:49they'll be disintermediating
1:13:51all of the traditional sources because
1:13:54they can go anywhere in the world. Um so
1:13:57just think about almost every sector is
1:14:00going to be disrupted. Healthcare is
1:14:02going to be disrupted enormously, I
1:14:04think.
1:14:05For the better. For the better, but
1:14:08those who are wedded to doing things the
1:14:10old way are probably going to be
1:14:13disrupted, you know?
1:14:16Yeah, that is my concern as well.
1:14:19And and just how we handle that as a
1:14:20society.
1:14:21But I think if we can help people
1:14:25understand
1:14:26that they have a lot of control over
1:14:29this
1:14:30if they're willing to learn and dream
1:14:33and use their imaginations.
1:14:35Not everybody is though, as you know.
1:14:36Yes, but they have to do it for their
1:14:37children at least, right? If we took the
1:14:39general population in the London and
1:14:41said, "100 people, how many of you
1:14:43understand what AI is?" Or "How many of
1:14:45you use ChatGPT?" We'd have a certain
1:14:47percentage, maybe I don't know, 50% or
1:14:49more. If I went to
1:14:51the countryside Yes.
1:14:54and I stopped a lovely person shopping
1:14:57at in the local village and said, "Do
1:14:58you use ChatGPT?"
1:15:00It'd probably be significantly lower
1:15:02percentage. They be they they wouldn't
1:15:04care about that. What is that? Whatever.
1:15:06Um I I wo- wonder about the inequality
1:15:09of like
1:15:11education, but just initiative and how
1:15:14those that really do have a proclivity
1:15:16to lean in and to experiment and to mess
1:15:18around and to learn
1:15:20because maybe there's an incentive
1:15:21because they work in a city and their
1:15:22employer is asking them to or be off to
1:15:25the races with this disruptive
1:15:26technology. And there's just like a lot
1:15:28of the rest of society, of middle
1:15:30America and the countrysides and those
1:15:32types of people who
1:15:35are just not even going to see it
1:15:36coming.
1:15:37But that's why we're out there. And the
1:15:40the important word that you used was
1:15:42initiative because I really think uh you
1:15:45know, when people hear the word
1:15:46inequality,
1:15:48uh
1:15:49they like to blame something, right?
1:15:51There will be no reason for this. I'm
1:15:55sure someone's going to come back at me
1:15:56for saying that, but I I'm of course
1:15:59there are people who who we have to help
1:16:00along the way. No question about it. But
1:16:03for those who are healthy and uh are
1:16:07listening to this podcast
1:16:10and are saying
1:16:11uh you know, I don't I don't know
1:16:14exactly what she's talking about, but
1:16:16I'm going to start reading up on some of
1:16:18these
1:16:19new ways of doing things and make sure
1:16:22to at least understand it.
1:16:25I think within that kind of initiative,
1:16:27they'll find it. They just will find it.
1:16:29There's going to be so much opportunity.
1:16:31It's going to be so exciting. And I
1:16:34think
1:16:35again, creativity and you know,
1:16:38especially young people using their
1:16:40imaginations, you know, they're they're
1:16:43not held back by any preconceived
1:16:45notions. So, I ask all the questions I
1:16:48ask because I'm trying to like solve
1:16:49little question marks I have in my head
1:16:50about the future. And it's really
1:16:52difficult at this time to see around the
1:16:53corner because so much is changing so
1:16:55quickly. And there's all of these
1:16:56converging technologies as you described
1:16:58like robotics and AI. And then when I
1:17:00put robotics and AI together, you're
1:17:01like, "Fuck."
1:17:05Do you know what I mean? Cuz I go like
1:17:07there's like I keep coming back to this
1:17:09question of like, "What am I going to
1:17:10do?" And not in You know what's good
1:17:12about that? You know what's really good
1:17:14about that?
1:17:16That will motivate you.
1:17:17It does.
1:17:18Of course it does. It's great. It's
1:17:20great.
1:17:21me to ask people like you the question
1:17:2217 times in a row.
1:17:25But it's a real point cuz I run
1:17:27businesses. We have at our headquarters,
1:17:29which is around the corner, it's about
1:17:3025,000 square foot office. We have, you
1:17:32know, hundreds of people in that
1:17:34building. And I'm thinking about the
1:17:36roles that we're hiring for and I'm
1:17:38we're now looking at them through the
1:17:39lens of agentic AI, so AI agents. And
1:17:42And then if I overlay that with robotics
1:17:44and AI,
1:17:45you know, I'm going, "Oh, there's what
1:17:47roles
1:17:48would we need to hire in the future?"
1:17:49Because
1:17:51theoretically
1:17:53like can you name a single role in a
1:17:55media company that would when I'm
1:17:57talking about in the robotics era that
1:17:59would really need to be done by a human?
1:18:00I guess other than one could say
1:18:03human-to-human sales
1:18:05would still have some kind of element of
1:18:07human touch to them. You know though, I
1:18:09mean, we've learned a lot from the
1:18:12ancient game of Go. Yeah. So,
1:18:17you've heard about AlphaGo, which was uh
1:18:20Alphabet, Google.
1:18:22Um
1:18:24basically devising a program to compete
1:18:27against the Go champions. Go is much
1:18:31more complicated than chess. Yeah, it's
1:18:33like a game a board game, basically.
1:18:35Right.
1:18:36Uh so, I think the the champion of the
1:18:38world at the time was a South Korean.
1:18:41And he was sure he was going to beat
1:18:43this machine.
1:18:44Well, the machine beat beat him.
1:18:47And he was crestfallen.
1:18:50And
1:18:51then he got his
1:18:53chutzpah,
1:18:55to use a New York word, back. And
1:18:58he said, "Wait a minute.
1:19:01I'm going to start playing against
1:19:02machines."
1:19:04And so now
1:19:06he's playing against machines. His game
1:19:09is so much better that when he competes
1:19:12against humans, and those competitions
1:19:15are the more important ones.
1:19:17Right? When he competes against other
1:19:20human beings, the machine has kept him
1:19:24as his champion. And of course,
1:19:25everyone's using the machine. So, we're
1:19:27all
1:19:28we're going to artificial intelligence
1:19:30But he still can't beat a machine, can
1:19:32he? He still can't beat the best machine
1:19:33in the world. No, he can't. And and But
1:19:36I mean, he can occasionally. But but
1:19:39people don't want to go see machines
1:19:41competing against machines. I get that
1:19:44in because human humans like human error
1:19:46and they like to be able to relate and
1:19:48to aspire. But as it relates to the
1:19:49world of work, the incentive is
1:19:51productivity. And my
1:19:53my humanoid robot isn't going to get
1:19:55sick, and it's going to have a PhD in
1:19:57everything. So
1:19:59I don't want to see a human failing at
1:20:01their desk.
1:20:02Right. Oh, right, right, right, right,
1:20:05right, right. But then you you're your
1:20:08robot and your AI is really focused on
1:20:12the past, right? That's what it's
1:20:14ingested, It can make predictions there
1:20:16based on that past.
1:20:18Pattern recognition.
1:20:19how my brain works, right? Like a neural
1:20:21network.
1:20:21but
1:20:23that's why we chose the word disruptive.
1:20:26Disruptive means the traditional world
1:20:29order and patterns therefore that
1:20:32you know, the the robots and others will
1:20:34recognize is going to change.
1:20:38Right?
1:20:40Sorry, what does that mean? Is it So,
1:20:42what when we're doing our research we
1:20:45have a white sheet of paper. There's no
1:20:47history for this. Right? And so, we're
1:20:50doing a lot of original research. So, AI
1:20:53machines might use our research as that
1:20:55cuz we put it out there. But it is
1:20:58think differently to you to a human
1:21:00though? In terms of is I thought the
1:21:01human brain was building, you know,
1:21:03predicting essentially something based
1:21:06on lots of information. And AI is
1:21:08basically doing the same thing with
1:21:10neural networks. It's making a
1:21:11prediction based on lots of new
1:21:12information. And therefore, if we get to
1:21:14AGI, it can create new information.
1:21:16Yes. And and and it will. But I mean,
1:21:19AGI Elon will say it's
1:21:22two years away. And it does seem, you
1:21:25know, we're able to generate PhDs and
1:21:29rocket scientists now in the AI world.
1:21:32So, he's probably right. But I also
1:21:35think about this as giving us
1:21:37superintelligence. So, could ChatGPT do
1:21:41what we've done?
1:21:43Maybe, I don't know. Actually, it's a
1:21:45very interesting exercise. I'm going to
1:21:47ask our team to do that before I put it
1:21:49out. Uh to do to do a model, a SpaceX
1:21:53model, financial model, income
1:21:55statement, balance sheet, cash flow
1:21:58statement between now and 2050 when we
1:22:01have in 20 in the 2040s, Elon expects,
1:22:05if not sooner, to colonize Mars. Uh I'll
1:22:10see what kind of model it comes back
1:22:12with. In terms of how much In terms of
1:22:14how correct it is and what it uses to
1:22:17get there.
1:22:19Family man. Mhm. SpaceX.
1:22:22A financial model.
1:22:24Our income statement. Okay.
1:22:27Income statement.
1:22:28ask the really smart model, SD3.
1:22:31Make a
1:22:33SpaceX You're an investor in SpaceX?
1:22:35Yes, in the private fund, yes. So am I.
1:22:38Huh. Make a SpaceX
1:22:40income statement.
1:22:47Income statement based on Uh
1:22:50Elon's predictions? Yes. Based on Elon's
1:22:52predictions. Yeah.
1:22:54This will be very interesting.
1:22:55Now until 2050. Mhm.
1:22:59Okay, I'll put that on the screen so
1:23:00everybody can watch.
1:23:02And this is essentially going to look at
1:23:03everything he said about going to Mars
1:23:05and colonizing Mars
1:23:07and then tell you how valuable that
1:23:09company's going to be Yes.
1:23:12I'm not sure if you asked the question
1:23:13that way. Did you
1:23:15Did you say I just said make a SpaceX
1:23:17income statement based on Elon's
1:23:18predictions from now until 2050 and then
1:23:20I can ask it what the market cap would
1:23:22be.
1:23:22I wonder how long it's going to think.
1:23:24It's thinking for a while.
1:23:24Yeah, it's going to think a long time, I
1:23:26have a feeling. And then it's going to
1:23:28take you through and I think uh you
1:23:31know, it was interesting, DeepSeek
1:23:34uh the breakthrough it had
1:23:36on the reasoning side was it kept asking
1:23:39questions so it could get to the right
1:23:41answer faster. Mhm. I think they're all
1:23:44adopting it now cuz cuz DeepSeek is open
1:23:46source. Yeah. And they didn't need to
1:23:48spend much as much money on the training
1:23:51side because they
1:23:51That's what they said. They said $6
1:23:53million trained on a high-end
1:23:56workstation and that that of course
1:23:58caused a trillion dollars worth of
1:24:01damage in the US market with Nvidia, one
1:24:05of the biggest
1:24:06casualties because people said, "Well,
1:24:09wait a minute.
1:24:10We're doing these data centers.
1:24:12You mean we don't need all those big
1:24:15data center servers to to do this work?
1:24:17We could do a high-end workstation for
1:24:20$6 million?" The answer is the
1:24:22pre-training
1:24:24for that model was done on a 50,000 GPU
1:24:29cluster that the hedge fund had. Mhm.
1:24:32And the last step of the large language
1:24:34model was the $6 million step.
1:24:39Okay, it's made its mind up now.
1:24:41Oh.
1:24:42So, it says Starlink revenue in 2050
1:24:46would be 250 billion. Mhm. It says
1:24:49launch and Starship revenue would be 120
1:24:52billion. So, the total revenue would be
1:24:55370 billion.
1:24:58Cost of goods sold would be 172 billion.
1:25:00Gross profit therefore would be 200
1:25:03billion. Operating expenses 37 billion.
1:25:05Operating income would be 161 billion.
1:25:08After tax, so the net income would be
1:25:10128
1:25:12billion. All right.
1:25:15And I have to I to to be honest, I
1:25:16haven't seen the last stage of this
1:25:19model. We haven't That'd be very
1:25:21interesting. I'd love to get a a copy of
1:25:24that if you could send it to me. Can you
1:25:25Yeah.
1:25:25100% I'll send it I'll email it to you
1:25:27straight after. You know, when I asked
1:25:28ChatGPT earlier, I said, "Who is the
1:25:30number one woman in the world in
1:25:33investing?" It repeatedly said your
1:25:34name. Mhm. So, that's a pretty
1:25:37remarkable thing to have accomplished,
1:25:40especially in a male-dominated industry
1:25:43where there isn't many women that manage
1:25:44to rise to the top of that industry.
1:25:48So, what what is it about you in
1:25:50hindsight? You know, it's difficult to
1:25:52be objective about oneself. But what is
1:25:54it about you that meant that you were
1:25:56successful in a male-dominated industry,
1:25:59in an industry that's incredibly
1:26:00difficult to be successful in?
1:26:02My advice to all young people getting
1:26:05into their first job especially, but
1:26:07even later jobs, is
1:26:09my mission when I started was to make my
1:26:13boss look brilliant. Now, why do I why
1:26:17do I say that? It's much more applicable
1:26:20today and possible today than it was
1:26:23back when there were no computers and no
1:26:25cell phones, which is when I started,
1:26:27right?
1:26:28But what did I do? My boss wanted to
1:26:31communicate, he was an economist, wanted
1:26:34to communicate in charts that you know,
1:26:37he couldn't find. So, I
1:26:40figured out a way. I went to our
1:26:42time-sharing system.
1:26:45That's all you could do back then.
1:26:46Time-sharing is an ancient mainframe
1:26:48technology. And I figured out a way to
1:26:53make these charts and delight him. And
1:26:58and and I loved doing it and I loved
1:27:00learning. I loved learning about
1:27:01technology. I learned tech and about
1:27:04economics through him. So,
1:27:06that was the first thing. And then
1:27:09Why is it important to make your boss
1:27:10look good?
1:27:13Well, I think because if you do make him
1:27:17look good, um first of all, you should
1:27:21you owe him a debt of
1:27:22of gratitude if he turns around and
1:27:25gives you more growth opportunities. So,
1:27:28but if he or she doesn't, then you know
1:27:32it's time to go to the next place where
1:27:34you make that next boss look brilliant
1:27:36and maybe you have the growth
1:27:37trajectory. I had bosses who they they
1:27:41loved the fact that I loved what I was
1:27:44doing, that I had such high conviction
1:27:48in what I was doing. And I I'm going to
1:27:50give Art Laffer a lot of credit for
1:27:51that. When I walked into the financial
1:27:55world,
1:27:57I knew more about economics than most of
1:27:59the people in the room.
1:28:01And that was a great source of
1:28:03confidence, a great source of
1:28:05confidence.
1:28:06And when I was leaving that firm,
1:28:09uh someone said my my boss at the time
1:28:11said, I was moving from LA to New York.
1:28:15My my boss said,
1:28:17"You've only been doing this for 3
1:28:18years. You're not ready to become their
1:28:20economist." And
1:28:22um
1:28:23and I just thought I was ready. And more
1:28:25important, the company to which I was
1:28:27going thought I was ready. And as I was
1:28:30leaving, um both he and and others said,
1:28:34"Remember, you know more about economics
1:28:37than anyone else in the room. You'll So,
1:28:40take that with you." And I did. And I
1:28:42think that sense of confidence
1:28:45and understanding the way the world
1:28:47works from a macroeconomic point of view
1:28:50was critically important. Now, when I
1:28:52got to New York,
1:28:53I could not even speak Art Laffer
1:28:56Laffer's name because the Laffer curve
1:28:58says, "If you cut tax rates that are too
1:29:02high, you will get more revenue."
1:29:05And what had happened is Ronald Reagan
1:29:08had cut tax rates.
1:29:10But Paul Volcker at the Fed was trying
1:29:13to starve the economy of inflation. So,
1:29:15we were in back-to-back recessions and
1:29:18no, the government wasn't getting more
1:29:19revenue. So,
1:29:21Art Laffer was, you know, on I couldn't
1:29:25say anything, but you know, that was
1:29:27fine. I knew he was going to be right
1:29:29and we were right. That was the story of
1:29:31the '80s and '90s. And that's why uh
1:29:35Jennison Associates and the Chief
1:29:37Investment Officer there, uh Sig
1:29:39Segalas,
1:29:41um gave me an opportunity to get into
1:29:43equity research. I wanted to grow. I
1:29:45loved the stock market and he loved my
1:29:49conviction and so he started me on
1:29:52cyclical companies, which of course I
1:29:54would know a lot about. But,
1:29:57Jennison was primarily a tech-oriented
1:30:00firm and of course, knowing that, I
1:30:03wanted to delight the boss. I wanted to
1:30:04get into the technologies and I made it
1:30:07my business to know as much about them
1:30:09and and I was the only one willing to uh
1:30:15research stocks outside the US. Think
1:30:18about that now.
1:30:20Art Laffer?
1:30:22Arthur Laffer? Yes. He wrote this
1:30:24letter.
1:30:25Oh, he did? He wrote this letter.
1:30:27Describing you. Oh, to you? To me. Oh.
1:30:32He said there was this young lady named
1:30:34Cathy Duddy, later Cathy Wood,
1:30:36whose face was the map of Ireland and
1:30:38whose ambition was over the moon. I was
1:30:39a tough teacher and grader and Cathy's
1:30:42first steps were shaky, but in short
1:30:43order she rose to the occasion and aced
1:30:45the course. Impressed as I was, and
1:30:48believe me, I was very impressed, I
1:30:50helped Cathy land her first job at
1:30:52Capital Group in LA and from that point
1:30:54in time it was game on. I followed her
1:30:56career closely after Capital Group, then
1:30:58on to Tupelo and her final job as an
1:31:00employee at at at Alliance
1:31:03Alliance Bernstein. As you may imagine,
1:31:06she was the star investor at each stage.
1:31:09In 2014, Cathy took a giant
1:31:10entrepreneurial leap in the founding and
1:31:12funding of ARK Invest.
1:31:15And the letter goes on
1:31:16to say she's a mega success and God
1:31:18bless her. She never has forgotten her
1:31:21now aged professor.
1:31:24Well,
1:31:25that was very nice of him. Um
1:31:29uh
1:31:30so, he he has been so important to my
1:31:33career. Now, I'm going to get a little
1:31:35weepy, but um
1:31:36I gave him 1% of my company when I
1:31:39started it.
1:31:40And uh
1:31:42so, he deserved it. He deserved it
1:31:45because he gave me a big big break. He
1:31:47believed in me first.
1:31:49Why does that make you emotional?
1:31:51I don't know. We have We've gone through
1:31:54our life together and what's so
1:31:55interesting now is
1:31:58um
1:31:59it's
1:32:00so interesting and and fun is
1:32:04Bitcoin has rejuvenated
1:32:07Art. He's 85 years old or 84
1:32:11and
1:32:12I'm seeing his excitement and he wants
1:32:15to spread the word around the world and
1:32:17now we're going into stablecoins
1:32:19together.
1:32:20And
1:32:22he just started an account on X. He has
1:32:26a flip phone.
1:32:28He doesn't do email and yet he has just
1:32:31started an account on X and so we now
1:32:34have this technology relationship
1:32:36because he wasn't going to technology,
1:32:38but he knows he's seen like
1:32:41ARK altogether, we have 3.3 million
1:32:44followers and he's seen the reach that X
1:32:48has and he's also, I think the other
1:32:51thing and I'm I'm haven't answered your
1:32:53question. It was just very nice of him
1:32:55to do that, you know, and I see it's a
1:32:58typed one page and very sweet. We have a
1:33:01closing tradition on this podcast where
1:33:02the last guest leaves a question for the
1:33:03next guest not knowing who they're
1:33:04leaving it for. And the question left
1:33:05for you is
1:33:07Hm? Great question for you. What is the
1:33:09craziest idea
1:33:12you ever had that turned out to be
1:33:14right?
1:33:17Well, there are just a a few One thing
1:33:19that it's it's not that crazy, but it
1:33:22just gives you a sense of how
1:33:24not obvious in the early days of ARK.
1:33:30I remember saying
1:33:33I remember saying
1:33:35well, you know,
1:33:37autonomous vehicles are robots.
1:33:41And I was in a research meeting and
1:33:44everyone said, "No, they're not."
1:33:47And of course they are. You know, it's a
1:33:48crazy idea, but and there was something
1:33:51I mean there
1:33:51some things I'll say
1:33:53and the reason that's important from our
1:33:56point of view is this convergence idea.
1:33:59Robotics, AI, energy storage. So, wait a
1:34:03minute, this is a very big idea. So, it
1:34:06seemed it seemed like no, it's like I
1:34:09think it is and and so it was like we
1:34:12were we were, you know, feeling our way
1:34:14in the dark cuz that was 2014 and
1:34:17nobody was really talking about them.
1:34:20And there's something like that very
1:34:21recently. Oh, we were talking it's not a
1:34:24crazy idea. It's it's just we're trying
1:34:25to solve problems. Um
1:34:27someone uh
1:34:29when as we were going on and on at our
1:34:31brainstorm on Friday about humanoid
1:34:33robots, uh someone he he's he's our um
1:34:37what do we call him? What do you call
1:34:39curmudgeon? Uh no, good way. In a good
1:34:42way.
1:34:42I don't even know what curmudgeon means.
1:34:43Curmudgeon means
1:34:45contrarian
1:34:47curmudgeon like
1:34:48yeah, yeah, yeah, that's not going to
1:34:50work, you know. Um
1:34:52he humanoid robots. He said he said, "I
1:34:55don't think that's going to be a thing."
1:34:57He said, "We really need robots that are
1:35:01going to be able to carry a lot more in
1:35:04terms of weight than those things will
1:35:07on those stilts." And in my mind kind of
1:35:10flashed
1:35:12um
1:35:13transformer robots. They'd have legs and
1:35:16all of that. You'd be able to fold them
1:35:18up so they look like a tamp tank. Mhm.
1:35:21And so that's what I said on uh I know
1:35:24this doesn't sound so crazy to you, but
1:35:27I don't
1:35:27I'm just imagining the future, going to
1:35:29Disneyland when I'm 11 years old. We had
1:35:32just come over
1:35:33uh from Ireland and seeing someone
1:35:36holding a phone on the Carousel of
1:35:39Progress and
1:35:40you know, saying, "I'm going to have one
1:35:43of those." Um it sounded crazy at the
1:35:45time and I felt a little crazy, but
1:35:48always So, you think we can have
1:35:50transformer robots? Yeah. So, the robot
1:35:53that cleans my house can transform and
1:35:55maybe become
1:35:56everybody laughed at me. But, I think
1:35:58that's going to happen.
1:36:00Another one was and this was on These
1:36:03are just little ideas in in terms of how
1:36:05things hit my brain, but
1:36:09uh someone was talking about Boring,
1:36:11which is another one of Elon's
1:36:13companies, the underground
1:36:15transportation. Big tunnels and stuff.
1:36:17Yeah. I forget what someone said in
1:36:20a post on X,
1:36:23but I my answer was
1:36:26Mars.
1:36:27Obviously. And people were laughing at
1:36:30that. And and then as they were talking
1:36:32about it, they're saying, "Of course
1:36:34they're going to put that transportation
1:36:36system underground. We learned why you
1:36:38shouldn't have it on top of the ground
1:36:41from Earth." So, just a little things
1:36:44catch me in a funny way. It's not the
1:36:45craziest. They're just like, "Oh, maybe
1:36:47that is the way things are going to
1:36:49work." I wonder if if Elon dies before
1:36:51we get to Mars or if he just dies in the
1:36:53next 10 years from anything, from any
1:36:54cause,
1:36:55how much of an impact that will have on
1:36:57our rate of progress
1:36:58generally with space and electric
1:37:00vehicles and humanoid robots? Could be
1:37:02quite profound.
1:37:03He is getting us so far along that, you
1:37:08know, there's just going to be a runway
1:37:10he's created for years and years. Think
1:37:12about it, Mars 2040, 50,
1:37:15you know.
1:37:17Cathy, thank you. Thank you for doing
1:37:19what you do and um
1:37:20that's a a sort of multifaceted point of
1:37:23gratitude because you do so much. Um you
1:37:25do so much in educating all of us in
1:37:27terms of innovation, investing and what
1:37:31the future looks like, but also from
1:37:33your funds perspective and your
1:37:34company's perspective, you do so much in
1:37:36open-sourcing and putting the research
1:37:38and the work that you guys do out into
1:37:39the world when you don't necessarily
1:37:40have to. But, uh as I've heard you say,
1:37:42it's a great benefit both to the world,
1:37:44but also so you do it because it also
1:37:46brings people to your fund, right? And
1:37:49it certainly did for me. That's how I
1:37:50came across you many, many years ago
1:37:51when I had was reading some research
1:37:53with my brother um around investing in
1:37:55the future and innovation and
1:37:57understanding your thesis around all of
1:37:58those things, but also from the
1:38:00education side, you're distilling this
1:38:02complex research into simple um
1:38:05language and information that the next
1:38:07generation can understand so that this
1:38:09moment of transition doesn't catch them
1:38:10off guard and that's an incredible
1:38:11thing. But I but I have to say as well,
1:38:14you're such an inspiration for the very
1:38:15fact that you have achieved what you've
1:38:17achieved in your life. It's it's exceed
1:38:19it's extremely rare for someone and I I
1:38:22don't always like to talk about gender
1:38:23or race or these those kinds of things,
1:38:25but it's a point of it's a particular
1:38:26point a pertinent point in this case
1:38:28because you have succeeded in a very
1:38:31male-dominated industry. And I think
1:38:33just your presence, your existence alone
1:38:35is going to inspire lots of women um and
1:38:37men, people like me, um to pursue
1:38:41finance and investing as a career. Oh.
1:38:43So, thank you so much for doing what you
1:38:45do and thank you for being who you are.
1:38:46It's incredibly important and you've
1:38:47demystified so many things for me over
1:38:49the years even though we've never met um
1:38:51but watching your videos and reading the
1:38:53research that you guys put out. So, I'm
1:38:54going to link all of that below. Link to
1:38:56your websites and your funds and all
1:38:57those things so people can learn more.
1:38:59But yeah, thank you. Thank you, Steven.
1:39:01Thank you for doing what you do and and
1:39:03it's been an honor and a privilege and I
1:39:06know you have an incredible audience.
1:39:08So, you've built a fantastic business
1:39:10here and I have a feeling uh
1:39:13that this new world that that you're
1:39:15fearing is going to be very good to you.
1:39:17I hope so.
1:39:18Yes. Thank you.
1:39:23The hardest conversations are often the
1:39:25ones we avoid. But what if you had the
1:39:27right question to start them with? Every
1:39:29single guest on the Diary of a CEO has
1:39:31left behind a question in this diary.
1:39:34And it's a question designed to
1:39:35challenge, to connect, and to go deeper
1:39:37with the next guest. And these are all
1:39:39the questions that I have here in my
1:39:41hand.
1:39:42On one side you've got the question that
1:39:44was asked, the name of the person who
1:39:46wrote it, and on the other side, if you
1:39:47scan that, you can watch the person who
1:39:50came after who answered it. 51 questions
1:39:53split across three different levels, the
1:39:55warm-up level, the open-up level, and
1:39:57the deep level. So you decide how deep
1:40:00the conversation goes. And people play
1:40:01these conversation cards in boardrooms
1:40:03at work, in bedrooms alone at night, and
1:40:06on first dates, and everywhere in
1:40:08between. I'll put a link to the
1:40:10conversation cards in the description
1:40:11below, and you can get yours at the
1:40:13diary.com.
1:40:15This has always blown my mind a little
1:40:16bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
1:40:19regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
1:40:21show. So could I ask you for a favor? If
1:40:23you like this show and you like what we
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1:40:25free simple way that you can do just
1:40:27that is by hitting the subscribe button.
1:40:29And my commitment to you is if you do
1:40:30that, then I'll do everything in my
1:40:32power, me and my team, to make sure that
1:40:34this show is better for you every single
1:40:36week. We'll listen to your feedback,
1:40:37we'll find the guests that you want me
1:40:39to speak to, and we'll continue to do
1:40:40what we do. Thank you so much.

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