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Interview With Whistleblower Coleen Rowley — Transcript

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0:00[Music]
0:17good evening friends and welcome to the
0:20sixth episode of curmudgeonly
0:22conversation tonight's episode is
0:25colleen and the curmudgeon and by
0:28Colleen I mean Coleen Rowley the heroic
0:31FBI agent and 9/11 whistleblower who was
0:35Time magazine Co Person of the Year in
0:37the year 2003 Colleen has done
0:41outstanding work in defending civil
0:44liberties promoting the cause of peace
0:46and in getting to the bottom of some
0:51very important issues in American
0:53history regarding alleged law
0:55enforcement and some of the malfeasance
0:59of law enforcement agencies including
1:02some of those by very powerful people
1:05inside of the FBI before 9/11 Colleen
1:10had noticed that there were people
1:11learning how to fly planes who were not
1:13interested in learning how to land the
1:15planes they were on a very short list of
1:17folks to be watched who had come from
1:21overseas she alerted the people in the
1:24FBI and somehow that didn't seem to make
1:28much of an impact on them and then there
1:30were things that happened after 9/11
1:32both in terms of dealing with that
1:35situation and the attacks on our liberty
1:38and our privacy and our safety by
1:42officials in the government in
1:44Washington DC that Colleen has been
1:46working against and has been helping us
1:49to know by being one of our frankly one
1:51of our leading whistleblowers and people
1:53illuminating these things so well ladies
1:56and gentlemen I'd like to welcome our
1:58good friend all the way from Minnesota
2:00Coleen Rowley Colleen how are you pretty
2:04good and can I start off by just making
2:07a minor clarification to that intro okay
2:10oh you know the I was the division legal
2:14counsel in Minnesota and not the
2:18investigator I had a lot of roles I did
2:20a lot of things but mostly I was legal
2:23and we had investigative agents
2:26that got calls from whistleblowers at
2:29these at these flight school about their
2:32most suspicious student ever so nins
2:36agent and an FBI agent and the agent
2:39supervisor were the ones that actually
2:42did all this work and interviewing the
2:45people at the flight school they took
2:47the terrorist suspect Mousawi into
2:50custody right away they were able to
2:52even identify the federal law that was
2:56being violated which was sabotage of a
3:00of a narrow air of airplane I can't
3:04remember the exact title of this but
3:05they eat that that they were very very
3:08astute one of them had pilot experience
3:11and intelligence experience in the Navy
3:13and they knew what they were dealing
3:15with very very quickly I was only the
3:18legal counsel who had really a small
3:22peripheral role in the in the
3:24investigation I became the whistleblower
3:27afterwards nine months afterwards
3:29because Muller by the way who were going
3:33to talk about tonight
3:34Robert Muller the FBI director I had
3:37stalled and was not telling the truth
3:40about the intelligence and the clues
3:43including this Mousawi case that the FBI
3:46had and they were even sorting and
3:49stalling on investigations of what had
3:52gone wrong so I became a whistleblower
3:55because I thought well you know I better
3:57tell the full truth about what I know
3:58about this the agents would have also
4:01told the truth as well they did not have
4:04as many years in the FBI nor did they
4:07have the legal background because a lot
4:09of these issues were legal ones so I
4:11just wanted to make the clarification on
4:13that I was the whistleblower and not the
4:16investigator but I anyways I just wanted
4:20to clarify that thank you okay so having
4:25done that of course some both mr. Muller
4:29mr. Comey have been high-profile
4:33individuals for quite a long time
4:35including regarding the 2016
4:39presidential election
4:40and efforts to derail the election and
4:47Donald Trump's presidency through
4:49various means and there was an inspector
4:52general report which just came out about
4:55director Comey and following that he
4:58said well he was gonna accept apologies
5:01from from critics after that report but
5:04I'm curious as to your response to that
5:07if you look at that report where do you
5:08think he's right to be expecting
5:10apologies or if that report is some of
5:13our friends I think Jim Bovard and
5:14others said didn't reflect favorably on
5:19him and was probably mean and I've gone
5:23as far as it should have gone but that
5:25Comey is way off base on this what would
5:28you say about that well for starters I
5:32don't think anyone is putting into
5:33context the this entire career of both
5:37robert muller and james call me who by
5:39the way were basically joined at the hip
5:41they were friends and colleagues worked
5:44together and especially after 9/11 they
5:47bonded very closely they never should
5:49have even appointed robert muller to be
5:52a special counsel of this investigation
5:55since it involved the firing of James
5:58Comey and that he that was one of his
6:00best friends I mean you would never do
6:02this because there's a conflict of
6:04interest in a lot of ways so the fuller
6:07context is these two very similar our
6:11career
6:13they are revolving door types where they
6:15make a lot of money in the private
6:17sector or in big law firms and they go
6:20back and forth getting more power and
6:22influence in government and they along
6:26the way when they were FBI directors
6:28made a whole series of really fairly
6:31egregious you know mistakes if you want
6:34to call them mistakes and wrongdoing
6:36which really really shocked me after
6:39after Muller was named special counsel
6:42because he and call me were put on
6:44pedestals and everyone swept it under
6:47the rug all these terrible things they
6:48had done I've even seen an article by
6:52someone who should know better
6:53claiming that James Comey should be
6:56treated as a whistleblower and in the
7:00problem with that is that James Comey
7:02was not motivated in order to benefit
7:06the public giving out some information
7:08about our government wrongdoing or an
7:11illegal act that that would help the
7:13public and his career shows that he's
7:16motivated he earned millions of dollars
7:19as a Lockheed vice president and his
7:22whole career has been this again this
7:25revolving door where he gains money and
7:28power and proceeds along he does work
7:30with others of course in the meantime
7:33doing this that article claimed that he
7:36had stopped torture and in fact that's
7:39not true at all one of his last acts as
7:41innocent as a Deputy Attorney General
7:44was to authorize torture he signed off
7:47on it so the facts in this article
7:49claiming that James Comey as a
7:51whistleblower were completely wrong
7:52completely and they said the same thing
7:54about surveillance massive surveillance
7:56that wasn't true either both Muller and
7:59Comey
7:59I had had a showing that they looked
8:02like they were against it but in fact
8:03they just changed the legal basis so I
8:06mean the real problem here is that when
8:10you get into this kind of hysteria where
8:13the country is being fed a lot of media
8:16propaganda and group dynamics being what
8:21they are with the partisanship
8:23most of the people just forget history
8:26and even history from a few years ago
8:28Muller and call me have really had a lot
8:31of really shameful actions in their past
8:35and so when you get to James Comey being
8:38criticized for leaking his memos to
8:43lawyer friends and at least in one case
8:46with the explicit goal of that lawyer
8:51friend then leaking it to the New York
8:54time ager media maybe it was New York
8:57Times I don't remember but it was all
8:59designed to be leaked and and then it
9:02was actually designed to be leaked so
9:04that his friend Robert
9:05Muller would be named a special counsel
9:08basically opening up this two year plus
9:11investigation of Russia gate which we
9:14now know was really lacking in any
9:18substance at all especially any
9:20substance that would connect an American
9:23to to having to working with Russia
9:28there the Muller found nothing that he
9:32could charge any American who worked
9:34with Russia and so for two over two
9:37years this thing has been going on we've
9:39obviously suffered every single night
9:42through all of these headlines and
9:44delete lots and lots of leaking commies
9:49leaking is minor compared to the leaking
9:52that went on mostly probably you know we
9:54can guess it who this was responsible
9:56for it but I think clapper and Brennan
9:58Obama administration officials had to
10:02have some role Hayden from the prior one
10:05also had to have a role and there were
10:06probably others but there was so much
10:09leaking that went on and this is an
10:11actual leaking of true information this
10:16is a big difference
10:17Scooter Libby was said to have leaked to
10:20the New York Times to Judith Miller
10:22about the uranium the aluminum tubes
10:25that he made the story that they were
10:29designed for nuclear enrichment to
10:31Saddam
10:32that isn't leaking that is planting
10:35false stories and so again leaking is
10:39minor compared to planting false stories
10:42planting false stories is really bad
10:45because what you're doing is you're
10:46using this propaganda in order to
10:48manipulate public opinion in the case of
10:52scooter Libya was to launch more Wars
10:54this kind of thing and this is the
10:56context I mean I'm glad I get this
10:58opportunity because I don't see this
11:00being written about part maybe because
11:02people don't want to know how bad this
11:05is in the government I think that both
11:08Republicans and Democrats really don't
11:11want to know how bad manipulating public
11:15opinion is and use of propaganda the
11:19main
11:19way that you can manipulate public
11:21opinion is not leaking it's excessive
11:25secrecy Daniel Ellsberg I think he said
11:29once that you know at least 90 percent
11:32of all information out there it's
11:34classified secret when it shouldn't be
11:37why is that why do they classify they
11:40have an arcane classification system
11:42that allows almost everything that they
11:45want to to be secret without any actual
11:48independent judgment there's a there's a
11:51group called the Federation of American
11:53scientists and they all they care about
11:55is secrets called the secrecy project
11:57and they talk about this all the time
11:58there have been calls for reform of the
12:01classification process for decades but
12:04nothing ever happens why because
12:06powerful people want initially to have
12:10excessive secrecy this gives them a lot
12:13of leeway that way when people don't
12:16know the truth about things then they
12:19can it gives them this leeway then they
12:20can plant notions and false information
12:23in them in the media whereas if they had
12:25a lot more just released which was
12:28frankly the goal of WikiLeaks was just
12:30to make a lot of things more public so
12:32that the people could know things you
12:34know other than landing a Normandy Beach
12:37during World War two obviously there are
12:40things ongoing investigations need to be
12:43secret there is some rationale for
12:46limited secrecy over a short period of
12:49time there is but what happens in
12:52government is these powerful people have
12:54taken this and put it on steroids so
12:57that everything is secret now how does
13:00the whole country how does governance
13:02even work when everything is secret you
13:04get to the point where nobody can share
13:06information I wrote this article on
13:09WikiLeaks in 9/11 what if because you
13:12find out what caused 9/11 what was the
13:15enabling factor the the agencies were
13:18not even sharing information with each
13:20other the CIA didn't tell the FBI that
13:23they had been tracking terrorist
13:25suspects for you know three years and a
13:28couple of them had come into California
13:30the FBI did not
13:32share the information from Minnesota
13:34about the terrorist suspect in Minnesota
13:36they didn't even share it internally
13:38with the next higher level and the FBI
13:41and then certainly that knowin Snowden
13:44government shared any of this the the
13:47memos that said bin Laden was going to
13:50attack that none of this was shared with
13:51the public and so you find out that this
13:55secrecy is the problem and why does it
13:59exist it exists because the powerful
14:01people have their own agendas and they
14:04want to control public opinion and the
14:07first thing they do is have excessive
14:08secrecy then they work with leaking so
14:13leaking occurs all the time a Harvard
14:17Law Review called it the leaky Leviathan
14:20and in some cases it's legitimate to
14:23leak because think about it what if what
14:26if there's a public official being
14:29defamed falsely defamed and they say oh
14:33the FBI has you know some information
14:35well exactly like the the the truck
14:39Trump of a case would fit this example
14:42okay so if someone is leaking that and
14:44saying you know Trump is got prostitutes
14:48in Russia or whatever and you know
14:50that's not true
14:51you almost have to then somehow correct
14:54that so when this happens with some once
14:58in a while doesn't happen a lot but
15:00there are times when it's very
15:02legitimate to correct false information
15:05it could even be a public safety issue
15:07let's say that someone's leaking that
15:09there's a someone's going to plant
15:12toxins in the water supply and people
15:15are racing you know they're racing away
15:17and there's there could be even a public
15:19safety reason for somehow saying no no
15:22that's not true that's false that's one
15:25case of where the leaking might be
15:28necessary and there's the other case is
15:31all I forgot one example was Ted
15:33Kaczynski the Unabomber one of the media
15:36I think it was ABC but I'm not sure one
15:39of the major media found out that the
15:42Unabomber who had been bombed sent
15:45mail bombs throughout the country for 18
15:49years
15:49FBI had no idea throughout these 18
15:52years who was doing it but actually
15:54eventually they you know a little bit
15:57luck they found out this guy was living
15:59in a little cabin I think in Montana but
16:02the media found out too and before he
16:05could be arrested they were on the verge
16:07of breaking this of course that would
16:09have made for you know you know selling
16:12stories selling newspapers etc this
16:14would have been a big scoop and so in
16:17that kind of a case there are times when
16:20it's legitimate to you know for lack of
16:23a better term leaked or disclosed to the
16:26media you it there's a little need for
16:28legitimacy
16:29unfortunately the like I said combined
16:33with the excessive secrecy and then the
16:36ability to get get favorite reporters
16:40and then tell them you have a big leak
16:42for them this is what the news like you
16:45know swoons over thinking that they have
16:47some public official that's giving them
16:49a big leak it allows for manipulating
16:53the public opinion through the press and
16:56this is this is a lot to correct it is
17:00simply not just you know wrapping James
17:03Comey on the fingers for having leaked
17:05his memos and so in the scheme of things
17:09it's a very minor compared to everything
17:13else compared to everything else is
17:16giving these legal memos to they said
17:19only six words should have been
17:21classified and and I will I will say
17:24that that actually is a parallel with my
17:26memo my whistleblower memo about 9/11 I
17:31did not classify it
17:33I gave it to the Joint Intelligence
17:34Committee heads or not the head but
17:37people on the Joint Intelligence
17:38Committee senators who also had the same
17:42high-level clearance as I did and so
17:45there should have been any problem but
17:46the FBI then stamp set secret classified
17:50based on just a handful of words they
17:53did that because they didn't want the
17:55information to get out and have people
17:57know that there was so much information
17:59before 911 then that they should have
18:01shared it etc and that there was
18:03probable cause for further investigation
18:06here in Minnesota which might have
18:08prevented or at least lessened 911 so so
18:12I will just say you don't see this I'm
18:16sorry I have not seen any of this really
18:19analyzed this way in our press the the
18:24the one thing that call me like I said
18:26he's not a whistleblower because he was
18:28he did not have the right motivation for
18:31his leaking this was all part of his
18:33career stuff it certainly was probably
18:37part of his nevertrump or all of Brennan
18:42and clapper and most of the intelligence
18:44community seemed to have been very
18:47worried about Trump's candidacy first
18:50his candidacy and then it's being
18:52elected they became even more worried
18:54and along with all of this partisan
19:00whatever you want to call it partisan I
19:03call it a hopes you know I'm trying to
19:06think of the word but all of the stuff
19:07that grew up about the dossier this
19:10false fake hoax dossier that that was
19:15used was leaked to the media and then
19:19used and along with that then then call
19:21me of course decides to sign off on
19:25surveillance of the Trump campaign it's
19:28clear that his motivation was very much
19:31political and that he was very you know
19:35worried about Trump posing problems for
19:38probably for foreign policy because
19:40Trump had said many times you know he
19:42had criticized wars he criticized Bush
19:44Bush's wars and Obama's wars and I think
19:48a lot of the people certainly a former
19:50Lockheed official who had made millions
19:52of dollars would be very worried about a
19:55president like Trump who was actually
19:57criticizing the war efforts not that any
20:00of this has come true according to his
20:01promises but it still did seem to worry
20:04a lot of people and the establishment so
20:07he was so calm II was not motivated as a
20:10whistleblower would be which was to
20:12reveal
20:13government fraud waste abuse illegal
20:15actions or a serious risk to public
20:17safety I don't think that he meets that
20:19test at all but but again I don't think
20:23that his leaking of the memos is the
20:26major thing that he should be held
20:28accountable for he should be held
20:31accountable for what seems to be coming
20:33next which is the hopefully Inspector
20:40General Horowitz is looking into it has
20:43been looking into the authorization to
20:47surveil Carter page and by extension the
20:52Trump campaign from before the election
20:55and into after the election after even
20:58after Trump becomes president which
21:00seems very wrong and very very I don't
21:05know how anyone can justify relying on a
21:09dossier the steel dossier which call me
21:14and mitts he never was able to verify
21:16that's incredible that's absolutely
21:19incredible and we'll have to wait and
21:21see if if the IG now recommends or the
21:25DOJ recommends holding any of the people
21:28responsible for that that seems like a
21:31much much bigger thing and it's out
21:33there we'll see what happens if they
21:34don't hold anyone responsible for that I
21:38would say that that means that there's
21:40just a kind of a big club and they just
21:43kind of make it look like they're doing
21:44things and you know criticizing but the
21:46bottom line is they don't want to hold
21:48anyone responsible for anything and that
21:51would be a pattern that we've seen for a
21:53long long time I hope I hope that they
21:56are able to get more to the bottom of
21:58that and actually hold people
22:00responsible because this is really
22:02really dangerous for democracy secret
22:05surveillance of high-level officials
22:07that was not properly predicated on any
22:11any real evidence and in it and they
22:14didn't even verify the the NARC I said
22:17the still dossier that they did use
22:20right a lot of reading formation and it
22:25also a woman
22:26we think of this idea tyson is what you
22:30were talking about Colleen about
22:31something that Robert Hicks talks about
22:32which is truncating the antecedents and
22:36so we only get you know when it might
22:38lead up to a war or this type of a
22:40situation there are people that will
22:43cover up what happened earlier which got
22:46us to this point and in fact 9/11 is
22:48probably a classic example of that in
22:51terms of the foreign policy blowback
22:53that Ron Paul and in some people the CIA
22:56and I think was Robert Pape dr. pate and
23:00University of Chicago and others have
23:02talked about but most people are unaware
23:05of it and so they they think many people
23:07in our country think history started on
23:099/11 regarding all this and and of
23:12course it this goes back decades and
23:13there were Michael Schur is another one
23:16who brings us plaintiff as well that
23:18that there were there were motivations
23:22and then there was what bin Laden wanted
23:24to accomplish which was basically the
23:26throw the throw a rope a dope and I mean
23:30I heard Scott Horton and Danny Shearson
23:32talking about this on an interview that
23:34they just did the other day and
23:36essentially they succeeded it and and in
23:38what bin Laden was trying to accomplish
23:39and in the meantime as you point out we
23:42have all of these actions by comeon
23:46molar which the general public is only
23:50the vaguest the slightest notion of
23:53because it doesn't get mentioned in the
23:54media and so just a little tip of the
23:57iceberg that comes up and there seems to
23:59be whether it's whether it's prosecuting
24:02these unjustifiable wars of aggression
24:04or this secret surveillance and we say
24:10that they did it to the present Trump in
24:11his campaign and it sure looks like
24:13they're doing it to everybody all these
24:14stories are coming out now with what's
24:15what's happening and the frightening
24:17expansion of the technological
24:19capabilities of the spies just by
24:22against us here at home really leads to
24:25a very troubling a very troubling
24:28situation so as you say hopefully
24:30there'll be some accountability but the
24:33pattern the historical pattern is not
24:35encouraging at all in there in that
24:38regard and I
24:40as I recall there's stuff regarding the
24:43the I guess the second Iraq war is in
24:46there regarding comeon Waller wasn't one
24:48of them involved in helping to promote
24:52the fabrication of some fake
24:55intelligence that led to the the problem
24:57there and and of course you mentioned
24:59torture and and the other thing that we
25:00should remind people of is it torture
25:04besides being morally wrong it typically
25:07doesn't lead to useful information from
25:10a battlefield standpoint but you get
25:12these propaganda statements or you get
25:14somebody who would you look I guess the
25:15North Koreans used to use it for among
25:16others or you get somebody just saying
25:18what do you want me to say to make a
25:20stop and I think that's right Cheney was
25:22involved by hey man scooter looking in a
25:24state role that was a Elba Liddy was the
25:25guy and they said say this and so he
25:28said what they want him to say to stop
25:29the torture and and then look at that
25:31let do because because he falsely did
25:33just to stop the torture implicated
25:35Saddam on the weapons of mass
25:37destruction thing and alqaeda and all
25:38that and that led to a horrible
25:40consequences for the people of Iraq and
25:42for the people of America and for people
25:44generally in the Middle East isn't that
25:46essentially what happened there
25:48absolutely the el-libi al Qaeda member
25:54was tortured and I think Egypt and he
25:59you know came up with the false
26:01intelligence that Saddam had chemical
26:05weapons or whatever and or was linked to
26:08al-qaeda I can't remember what but he
26:10you know he made up a story to make the
26:13torture stop tonight on the national
26:15news actually they talked about false
26:17confessions in regard to those five
26:20young black men that were convicted of a
26:24rape and and I think it was near Central
26:27Park years and years ago they all
26:30confessed as you know they were
26:32teenagers and it turns out they were
26:35completely innocent DNA exonerated them
26:37they did a long time in prison and they
26:40did the story tonight they said why
26:41would they have confessed well and this
26:44wasn't even physical torture wasn't
26:46waterboarding it wasn't but under duress
26:49of interviewing somebody and especially
26:51with people that are less have
26:54willpower like a teenager would or
26:56somebody who's maybe not as mentally
26:58capable it you can even get a false
27:02confession without torturing somebody
27:04physically torturing them just through
27:07use of mental ways let alone physical
27:11torture so everyone in law enforcement
27:14and I told you from time I was in the
27:17first week of training school we were
27:19told that you would get nothing but
27:21false unreliable information through
27:24torture and yet Muller after 911 he
27:28finds out it's happening and all he does
27:30at the time is ordered the FBI not to do
27:34it you know and the only reason to is we
27:36had a strong assistant director that
27:39Allie sue fine who was the agent who
27:41found out first one that found out the
27:43CIA was going to start this
27:45waterboarding and torture he went right
27:48to that assistant director and he said
27:49you know this the FBI who never would do
27:52this would they and that assistant
27:54director then told Muller and so Muller
27:56said okay well let the FBI not do it and
28:00but kept their mouth quiet for years and
28:02years and years call me actually signs
28:04off on the torture tactics as one of his
28:08final action in the Department of
28:10Justice and yes you can't you can't get
28:13more anti again it's it's anti-law
28:16enforcement completely its anti it's
28:18completely unreliable it's just gonna
28:20lead you on false false even if you you
28:24say well I don't care I'm hurting this
28:25person for whatever reason it's going to
28:27lead you on false like like the el-libi
28:30case so one of the things I think people
28:34didn't understand is when you start
28:36going down this road after 9/11 of
28:40illegal actions initially it's
28:43predicated upon well do illegal actions
28:47we don't have to worry about
28:48constitutional rights with regard to
28:50terrorists so Muller ordered the roundup
28:55of about a thousand immigrants that just
28:59happened to be in the wrong place you
29:00know place new New York City and they
29:04were all detained now
29:05is illegal you detained them for months
29:08and months some of them for a year some
29:09of them were even brutalized and beat up
29:11because people thought they were
29:14terrorists and they were just really
29:16nobody's really the same thing was
29:18mostly true on Guantanamo they had seven
29:21Brown 700 some people there and only a
29:24very small a few dozen maybe two or
29:28three dozen were actually you know had
29:32done anything terror terroristic the
29:35rest of them were just in the wrong
29:37place at the wrong time Muller was in
29:39charge of all of it that is completely I
29:41mean like I said it's wrong but it's
29:43completely inaccurate and you know what
29:46the people were happy in Americans like
29:48oh well those are the worst of the worst
29:49why because it wasn't them
29:52when Snowden disclosed that these
29:55illegal actions and tactics were not
29:58just occurring on foreign people but
30:02we're also now being turned on Americans
30:05it did cause more awareness and so what
30:11happened was they turned it on you know
30:13Americans that did have constitutional
30:15they were entitled to constitutional
30:16rights whether they were getting them or
30:19not but they were either dissident
30:21groups in some cases many cases of
30:23course Muslims and increasingly now it
30:27will be turned on people that know are
30:29said to be white supremacist or
30:30quote-unquote conspiracy theorists or
30:33whatever so it it went from four people
30:37who were foreigner you know that the
30:39tactics on foreign people which no
30:41Americans really cared much about there
30:44were maybe some people at the time that
30:46we had more forward thinking that said
30:48you know what this isn't going to end
30:50here but very few and then they became
30:53used on Americans and now with Russia
30:56gate I think you see actually I warned
31:00about this in 2007
31:01you see those tactics having migrated
31:05for power mongering purposes into the
31:09most powerful people in Washington DC
31:11including intelligence community
31:14directors that the deep state people and
31:17including presidents and in
31:18stray ssin in fighting for power they're
31:21using these same tactics that began with
31:25the so-called war on terrorism and again
31:28they've just slowly migrated I said I
31:31warned about this in 2007 because we had
31:34a newly elected senator Amy Klobuchar
31:37who by the way knew very little about
31:41any of these she was a prosecutor but
31:43she knew nothing about in intelligence
31:46you know in international affairs or
31:48intelligence she knew nothing about this
31:50when she was elected as a senator and
31:52she goes and in August of 2007 when part
31:58of the massive surveillance program had
32:02lapsed and I want to say who was it at
32:05the time it was the NSA director and
32:07others I can't remember the names they
32:09all went to went to the hill at
32:12like 11 o'clock at night and they told
32:15people like senator Klobuchar we're
32:18going to have a terrorist attack unless
32:20you authorize these very very intrusive
32:26surveillance Authority which includes
32:29Americans and Amy Klobuchar yeah I'll do
32:33that she went along with it well the
32:35next day I wrote you know this this
32:37Huffington Post and I said don't you
32:39understand this isn't I'm gonna be
32:42targeted only on people that are not you
32:45you think you're in a club no it is
32:47going to come back to be the highest
32:49levels and all you have to do is know
32:51about COINTELPRO all you have to do is
32:53know history the people that are going
32:56to be targeted for these things are
32:58going to be the most powerful people uh
33:00you know you could say Nixon Nixon
33:03Watergate was almost a precursor in a
33:06way of what of Russia gate and the
33:10reason it's a precursor is because you
33:12had powerful people powerful highest
33:16levels thinking that they could do what
33:20they tell this the CIA to do all the
33:22time in foreign countries you know it's
33:24burglary or whatever the CIA doesn't bat
33:27an eyelash
33:28about burglarizing or stealing or even
33:31assassinating or torturing whatever they
33:34don't bat an eyelash at about being
33:36illegal in foreign countries and then
33:38it's slowly migrates home and you
33:41finally get to a point like with with
33:43Nixon where he says okay let's do it in
33:46Washington DC
33:47amongst other powerful people same thing
33:50I think in Russia gate it is just one of
33:53these things we had a lapse of time
33:55between the Church Committee nineteen
33:58about nineteen seventy eight where these
33:59reforms went into place and the Attorney
34:04General guidelines were quite strict
34:07they did restrain the FBI to a large
34:10extent about infiltrating and trapping
34:13lots of lots of things by the way that
34:16were that were very restraining on the
34:19FBI and especially on American citizens
34:21and then after 9/11 slowly I think this
34:26is what my colleague Mike German has
34:29written about in his new book slowly but
34:31surely they all got erased and the
34:35person one of the people one of the
34:37powerful directors that was part of any
34:39racing was Robert Muller first they
34:42erased the Attorney General guidelines
34:44or the the Faisal law was watered down
34:47the Patriot Act is another one but
34:49there's a whole picture tactic people
34:51always point to that that's just one
34:52largely it was the Office of Legal
34:54Counsel memos that John you was turning
34:57out and they just set the the way for
35:00all of these relaxations to the point
35:02where obviously they start with Muslims
35:05by doing these illegal actions on
35:07Muslims but then on other Americans and
35:09now I think we see them doing it on each
35:12other in Washington DC in fact that's a
35:16great point I think limit to the torture
35:18the Senate committee investigating
35:20torture weren't they spied on by the CIA
35:22wasn't there something that happened
35:23there that's exactly there's a film
35:26coming out a documentary called the
35:29report and it's the story of this very
35:32brave courageous staff are working for
35:35Dianne Feinstein on the torture report
35:37for five years this was his life for
35:40five years
35:41and he got a hold of a guy you know he
35:45was able to see the CIA's documents and
35:48Brennan of course just blew up Lulu is
35:52top when he found out that they were
35:54going to criticize the CIA for torture
35:57and they tried their darndest to go
35:59after this staffer I haven't seen the
36:02movie but I would highly recommend this
36:04documentary that comes out it's gonna
36:06you know I think it follows the the
36:08story very closely it's a it's got
36:11actors in it etc but it's very close to
36:13a documentary called the report and
36:15that's exactly right
36:17now you had Feinstein saying you know
36:20she's a leading senator she's head of no
36:23heads of committees and she's saying the
36:25CIA director was you know fine on me I
36:29mean and then the CIA director turned
36:31around and said no Feinstein is the one
36:34they both were accusing each other and
36:36it turned out Brennan was the one wrong
36:38and so yes sir that's a perfect example
36:41that's you know what someone should
36:43write a book about this because there if
36:45you really start stop to think about it
36:48it's a it's it's shown itself in a lot
36:52of ways now and our media it just keeps
36:55their keeps their mouth shut about it
36:58they truncate and pretend like this
37:01latest little incident is divorced it's
37:04all by itself and it does he has no you
37:07know root causes and it has nothing that
37:09leads into it they just keep quiet about
37:11it as if Oh Robert Muller excuse me
37:14Comey got a hair up his button in the
37:17sleeking no he did it every all of these
37:20high-level officials leaked all the time
37:23don't you remember about Cheney and
37:25scooter libby and etc don't you remember
37:27any of this they do it all the time most
37:30of the high level people don't get any
37:33punishment for it they get Petraeus you
37:36get a little tiny fine that's all he got
37:38whereas people like Chelsea Manning and
37:42Tom Drake the latest wing of the drone
37:49whistleblower Daniel Hale that they're
37:51going to be prosecuting I
37:53they're gonna be seeking you know almost
37:55probably a life term
37:57maybe maybe 30 years like they were 35
38:00years like they were seeking on Tom
38:02Drake I don't know I mean I'm just being
38:04pessimistic about that and all he did
38:07was he was in a documentary on drone
38:10warfare and he was one of the people he
38:12knew how they were being targeted how
38:14they were killing all the young white
38:16the all the young males and calling them
38:18terrorists and stuff so it's um it's
38:21really sad that we have this you know
38:24kind of I think it's almost kind of like
38:27empires rot from the inside and what
38:30Trump called the swamp and others people
38:33other people now have called The Blob I
38:36don't know what's better than the
38:37establishment the swamp the blob the
38:40military industrial congressional media
38:42complex but it really is now a very big
38:46factor and it's extremely corrupt on
38:48many levels
38:49and it's very hard to deal with one
38:52little aspect one little thing without
38:54knowing that the background that has led
38:56to beat some of this stuff right and
39:00well trying to get to the basics of it I
39:02mean again some people say it's it's
39:06actually a result of it's something that
39:11we can't prevent unless we deal with
39:13some real basic questions like you know
39:14the Federal Reserve and the monetary
39:16system which helps to finance all this
39:18stuff it and then these people come in
39:19and because we have such a centralized
39:21system which is so different than what
39:23the Declaration of Independence talks
39:25about and even with then the Articles of
39:27Confederation and even the Constitution
39:28itself allegedly but excuse me that then
39:33the drive for power is such that these
39:35people will then look at and say they
39:37want to have one centralized system so
39:39they can all go to one location either
39:42literally or figuratively and get
39:44control over everybody in this country
39:45that way and you look at the effects
39:48they can have on this night and number
39:49of people were concerned about this
39:51interestingly they called this it looked
39:54Russian collusion or Russian interferes
39:56in the election and people putting up
39:59walls like they're putting pressure on
40:01prison Trump because when he ran as a
40:02candidate he made what seemed I believe
40:06were very reasonable statements
40:07that why are we having unnecessarily
40:09hashed our relations with Russia that
40:11makes no sense like Pepe Kenan and
40:15others have said you know we have some
40:16areas of common interest they're really
40:19they're not a threat to us but we have
40:21both it could be worried about some of
40:24some of this jihadist terrorism
40:26for instance and yet but there are
40:30people that benefit from that
40:32unnecessary hostility and and you
40:35mentioned Kali no James called me in the
40:37Lockheed connection clearly the
40:39munitions manufacturers are one group of
40:41the people that are involved in the
40:43electronics of the spying and the
40:44monitoring everybody are another group
40:46so they can use the Russians and and
40:48sympathy with or even say hey let's just
40:51get along with them which you say you
40:52know it's that that shouldn't be
40:54scandalous that there's a reasonable
40:57thing to ask me this really should be
40:58the goal but they can paint people like
41:01that as being either traitorous or an
41:03American or something like when in
41:05reality it's these people in power who
41:07are the ones who are being traitorous
41:08and who are attacking the interests of
41:10the American people and that they would
41:11then push president Trump away from his
41:14stated viewpoint regarding Russia for
41:17instance and to try to show that he was
41:19not Putin's puppet and what we have now
41:22unfortunately is a system where or a
41:24situation where the policy of the United
41:27Sates government regarding Russia is
41:29worse than it was under President Obama
41:30and it was bad then and it's worse now
41:33the actions taken and the hostility
41:35shown that having troops right up to the
41:38to the border and then and then you know
41:41NATO troops
41:43I'm Russia's border as they expand NATO
41:46to go read about all that you know that
41:48wasn't supposed to happen that way and
41:49that's where the Russians are concerned
41:51about it and then the work that the
41:54United States government has done with
41:56some foreign governments in in fomenting
41:58these problems in places like Syria
42:00apparently working with Israel and Saudi
42:03Arabia and the United Arab Emirates and
42:05some of the European countries and then
42:06would and of course what had happened in
42:07the Balkans you know during the Clinton
42:10administration
42:10so what they've done is president Trump
42:14correctly noted that these things didn't
42:16make any sense and they were harmful and
42:17and then and then when he ended and then
42:19would
42:19of happening was because of his being
42:22pressured on this thing by these other
42:23people that what President Trump has
42:25done is he he seems to have given in to
42:27them on this point and he said things
42:29like oh yeah well at one point he said
42:31yeah well we know there wasn't any
42:32collusion oh yeah we just say there was
42:34and yet people have looked into this and
42:37now you have an EM ray mcgovern and some
42:39of the other VIPs the veteran
42:42intelligence professionals for sanity
42:43have said you can look at this and see
42:46that not only do they not have the
42:47evidence but there that there was such a
42:49move by the Russians but there there is
42:53a technical there are technical reasons
42:55to say it this was not hacking it this
42:57was leaking leaking above the Clinton
43:00campaign of the Democratic National
43:01Committee information that where people
43:04should be outraged at what was going on
43:05there and it said they changed the whole
43:07conversation and and now we've got this
43:09in this anti-russian hysteria and it's
43:12time Woods says it seems like no matter
43:13who you elect the end up with John
43:15McCain when it comes to the foreign
43:16policy and so this thing really is is is
43:19really a rotten situation and you say
43:21well if you look at governments to do
43:23interfere in elections United States
43:25government right at the top of that one
43:26and then there are other governments
43:28that seem to be quite heavily embedded
43:31in in the government in Washington DC
43:33with their power their influence but it
43:36ain't the Russians you know but you look
43:38at who are the biggest recipients of
43:40United States foreign policy aide who
43:44are the people that the United States
43:46government including the Trump
43:47administration and able in their attacks
43:50including in Yemen promoting starvation
43:54and cholera including what's happened to
43:56the people in Syria including what's
43:58happened to the Palestinians including a
44:00lot of other examples too including
44:01these attacks Iran and Iran of course
44:04being a leading opponent of the Sunni
44:08jihadi terrorism and then I think back
44:11to the to the NDAA of 2012 and another
44:14thing right and the whole indefinite
44:16detention thing and we were all
44:18concerned and we should be how loose
44:20that was but one of the things I said
44:21was well if you give aid and support to
44:25associated forces fighting against the
44:27coalition or take actions or if they
44:29think is detrimental to coalition
44:31members but we have the United States go
44:33I'm doing that very thing and yet is no
44:36accountability there of course is there
44:39yeah the basic model for propaganda it
44:44comes right out of World War two and
44:46gorings you know well you know people
44:51don't want to go to war nobody wants to
44:53but it's easy to get them to go to war
44:55even in a democracy you just tell them
44:58they're being attacked and denounced the
45:00pacifists for lack of patriotism and
45:03what you are explaining with what would
45:06even in Russia gate for denouncing the
45:08major mainstream media denouncing Trump
45:12as being a collaborator with with Putin
45:15many of us who criticized the Iraq war
45:18we're denounced as somehow in league
45:21with Saddam same thing you know with
45:24Qaddafi when when Obama wanted to bomb
45:26Libya oh no you're you must like Qaddafi
45:30you must like the in Ukraine you know
45:34you must like the Russian not the
45:37Russian but the prior of the prior
45:39leader of Ukraine that was toppled by
45:43the US this is like an old model now
45:45it's been used over and over and over
45:48you would think people would wise up you
45:51would think that they would say tulsi
45:53gabbard is being denounced by in some
45:56cases by mainstream media as being a
45:59Russian asset and whatever she's
46:02suffering the same fate as Trump right
46:04now even again this has little to do
46:07with party these are powerful and I
46:10would say war profiteering interests
46:13that want to keep the status quo and
46:15it's just becoming more and more
46:18dangerous the Cold War could it all it
46:21takes is a spark when you have troops
46:23like this and you have drones you saw
46:25these issues with Iran where you drone
46:28get shot down and then you're called on
46:30to retaliate and then you retaliate all
46:32of a sudden you have nuclear bombs going
46:34off a nuclear winter so it's beyond
46:38dangerous it's it's worse than this dr.
46:40olds dr. Strangelove movie tulsi gabbard
46:43by the way is calling
46:44attention to the arms race and the
46:46dangers of it there's there's a handful
46:48of people that are very very worried
46:50including even a former former defense
46:53defense secretary there are people that
46:56are very worried about this and yet you
46:59know largely largely in our in our
47:02discourse because of our mainstream
47:04media and and partisanship partisanship
47:08plays a huge role in this because as
47:10long as they can divide people and make
47:13them believe that their group is holier
47:16you know is a lesser evil whatever then
47:18the other group they're always gonna be
47:20susceptible to being kind that's the
47:23bottom line they're just in a good
47:25example I just posted this one on
47:27Facebook like I guess we'll probably
47:29have to cut short here pretty quick but
47:32Biden on the campaign trail right now is
47:35saying he opposed if of all things you
47:39can't even believe he can say this he's
47:42saying that he opposed the Iraq war from
47:44the start he told NPR somebody yeah as
47:48soon as I knew about the rack war
47:50whatever I opposed it from the start
47:53well it's just the opposite the facts
47:55are that he not only went along with it
47:57he helped to sell it he voted for it and
48:00even months and years later he was still
48:03justifying the us's war on Iraq and
48:07saying that Bush did the right thing
48:10so complete opposite go back to Goering
48:13I mean how can you sell a lie that much
48:16one number one it's possible Biden is so
48:20senile he doesn't remember himself like
48:22it it's possible over he somehow was in
48:26his own head he's fooled his own head
48:28into believing he opposed it even though
48:30he voted for it he pushed forward etc
48:32his own son died in the Iraq war that he
48:36pushed for so maybe he has some kind of
48:38a defense now defending his own self
48:42from knowing I don't know but how can
48:45people who mean anybody who's over let's
48:49say forty years old who lived through
48:50this I cannot understand how he could
48:55get away with this his own supporters
48:57must
48:58number one thing all it doesn't matter I
49:01don't care that Biden started the Iraq
49:04war even though he lies about it now
49:06he's still a fine man either they don't
49:09care at all or or they are that whatever
49:14the word is you know they're they have I
49:16said they live in the United States of
49:17amnesia and they cannot remember but
49:19that is a clear line right now the
49:23partisanship of Biden supporters are
49:27part of the problem because that
49:29partisanship is going to stop them for
49:32some of them at least from knowing our
49:35the guy that we want to push for to be
49:37president is lying like he'll outright
49:42lie
49:43millions of people died including his
49:45own son and he's lying like kale but
49:48it's fine with me
49:49because I'm I Democrat and I'm a Biden
49:52supporter it's the only thing that
49:53matters to me that's incredible and and
49:56that's part of what this this elitist
49:59politicization and partisanship people
50:02are I don't care what party you're from
50:04everybody should be against wars of
50:07aggression we should have you know there
50:08were before the Iraq war started there
50:11really work you know millions of people
50:13that were against it but over time this
50:16propaganda has really taken root and
50:18it's it's just a very sad thing to look
50:21out there and see whenever it works and
50:24it it's Russia gate that went on for
50:26three years izl is one example but there
50:29are many many other examples all of the
50:31wars that have been started have have
50:34all been started at least to my
50:36knowledge based on lies and especially
50:38the post 9/11 ones every single one of
50:41them you take them apart and they were
50:43all based on lies right yeah and you go
50:45back in history and yeah that's a theme
50:47because there are all these things it's
50:48so okay so we know that again it's war
50:54profiteers either financially or
50:55politically or pushing these things
50:57Komi and ruler are part of that group
50:59and so people need to look into that and
51:02realize that what what the major media
51:05is telling us about this whole situation
51:06is wrong and that they can go after
51:09people like prison Trump and all the
51:11rest of us too
51:12and there's a whole lot that they need
51:13to be aware of in this regard is it's
51:15very very frightening situation but
51:17people need to be awake at counting
51:19you've been awake about this for a very
51:21long time and I want to thank you for
51:22your time tonight and explain this I'm
51:24hoping we can do this again sometime it
51:26was really a pleasure and can I just
51:29mention that I wanted to recommend this
51:32new book that's just out it's just
51:34coming out by former FBI agent Mike
51:36German he's a friend of mine and it's
51:39about a lot of these issues that we've
51:40just been talking about and how all the
51:43laws have been subverted after 9/11 I
51:46even have a I think he I don't have not
51:49read it but I think he even writes about
51:51my whistleblowing in this book so I
51:55wanted to recommend it's entitled
51:57disrupt discredit and just divide what I
52:04was just talking about divide disrupt to
52:06spread it and divide and it's Muller
52:09picking up on what J Edgar Hoover did
52:13that was the motto during COINTELPRO and
52:16that is exactly what what robert muller
52:19and james call me and many many others
52:22picked up on after 9/11 to put us into
52:25this terrible situation we're in right
52:27now you reckon the real quick point yeah
52:30you mentioned earlier the media doesn't
52:32pick up on this stuff so what looks like
52:34this come up or work by John waited or
52:36Jim Bovard
52:38and by yourself and others and also so
52:41folks are aware the annual McAdams was
52:43just permanently banned from Twitter and
52:45Daniel McAdams has Greek worked on these
52:47issues with Ron Paul and the whole thing
52:48was he was criticizing Sean Hannity who
52:50was on TV talking about the deep state
52:52wearing a CIA pin and there and I just
52:56saw where they kicked a whole bunch of
52:57videos and things off of the platforms
52:59and so there's a lot of work done to try
53:01to keep people unaware of what's going
53:03on they're trying to bury history and so
53:05we have to do whatever we can to make
53:06sure that doesn't happen so oh my gosh
53:08like very sad thank you you all have a
53:12great night but we'll talk again soon
53:14okay
53:15bye Colleen so ladies and gentlemen that
53:18was Coleen Rowley from Minnesota and
53:20she's obviously extremely knowledgeable
53:22I urge you to go to her Facebook page
53:23and look at
53:25that she's written about these topics
53:27they're very very important very well
53:29done and I want to thank our good
53:32friends John and Kathy Irvine who make
53:34the facilities of the John Mackay at the
53:36Irvine recording studio available for
53:38curmudgeonly conversation thank you and
53:41good night
53:49you

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