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Interview with Tania Hagan, Author of 'No Inclination' inspired by the Chris Watts case — Transcript

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0:04hello hello hello I hope you can hear me
0:08this is not the ideal way that I'm doing
0:09it but um I think it will work so if
0:16that's a real technical issues my laptop
0:18decided it wanted to do Windows 10
0:21update which was great this is always
0:24about to start and then OBS decided that
0:28it didn't want to stream zoom properly
0:32and didn't show any picture and you
0:34think so just had a blank screen so I'm
0:38hoping I'm hoping that you can hear me
0:41okay you're probably gonna see me
0:44flicking about on my screen the stream
0:46is gonna show stuff
0:48flicking about on my screen as I flick
0:50around which is not ideal but it's gonna
0:55have to do I'm afraid
0:56so can you hear me okay I think just let
1:03me know you can hear everything okay in
1:06here well okay that's good right okay so
1:11I'll just give it a few minutes just
1:13Cummings and though obviously it's been
1:15bit delayed hope everybody's staying
1:17well and virus-free hello JD hello
1:21Tamara Haynes hello candy Williams hello
1:25Marlee Kimberley Walsh lady are you
1:30doing hope you've had a good there we
1:33Monday Monday so as you know I'm gonna
1:43call in Tony Hagen now if you don't know
1:48Tony Hagen's written a book called no
1:51inclination which is heavily inspired by
1:54the Chris what story it's quite clear as
1:57you start to read it if you're familiar
1:59with the Christmas story that it's busy
2:04heavily linked to that story so if
2:09you're not familiar with it then you're
2:11gonna find out about it
2:13I just think it's important to you know
2:18that this author in particular has stuck
2:20to the facts and you know it's not an
2:25outlandish story there's no sensation
2:27isn't waiting on that in it so okay
2:32there we were one second
2:39hang on one second
3:20I'm just gonna try and call Tanya in
3:24better say the problems I'm having I'm
3:26not entirely convinced this is going to
3:29be successful
3:36[Music]
3:41hello I can hear you see yeah I'm having
3:45all sorts of problems I've just switched
3:47one officer that I want to be have any
3:49more issues I just like a little bit
3:53easier if I don't have my video
3:55streaming so can everybody hear can you
3:59okay in the chat I think I'm sure yeah
4:09yeah it's all good good well thanks for
4:14right thanks for joining us tonight
4:18[Music]
4:20I appreciate it
4:22I know you've done quite a few you've
4:25done quite a few you've done the rounds
4:27a little bit haven't you on on YouTube I
4:39love talking I love you know talking
4:42about the book or about theories or
4:43whatever so yeah definitely yeah well
4:47almond about chapter 31 so I haven't
4:51quite completed the book I'm very near
4:53the end but obviously I'm aware though I
4:56don't want to spoil it for people so I
4:58supposed I'm God sort of tread carefully
5:00a little bit but I think it's great I
5:06think it's yeah it's fantastic it's um
5:08you know it's very well written you've
5:10you've got you viewing it from different
5:12perspectives as well yeah from the
5:18people involved great and it sort of
5:21goes over my theory about what might
5:23have happened so that's um as long as
5:26you know that I changed my mind about a
5:28couple of things but not anything major
5:30so
5:33yeah it's pretty much my theory and you
5:35know it's people tell me it's a easy
5:38read you know so it's not difficult to
5:40get through it um except for the fact
5:42that you know it's kind of heartbreaking
5:43of course and I had you know all kinds
5:45of trouble with my own emotions writing
5:48it but I got through it and I think that
5:49um the ending is uplifting so I think
5:53people will appreciate that you know I
5:55don't know mmm reach that beat yeah yeah
5:59something to look forward to in a in a
6:01horrible story if it's gone if you can
6:03bring into something like that yeah
6:06I did that intentionally you know
6:08hopefully uh providing maybe some
6:10closure to some people who are looking
6:13for answers and I think I tried to cover
6:16every mystery that's remaining in the
6:18case but there are so many so there are
6:20a few I didn't touch on like the
6:22sunflowers and things like that um but I
6:24think I tried to cover everything you
6:26know and it was very important to me to
6:29have the five year old daughter rather
6:33than the four year old daughter
6:34basically be my main character the book
6:37is about her and for her more or less so
6:39that would be Bella
6:40her name's Kenzie in the book of course
6:42yeah yeah so if you just sort of take it
6:46right from the start and so when I mean
6:48when did you first you know think about
6:50writing this book and what made you come
6:54to that decision that you wanted to
6:56write this book well I want to see
7:00October of 2018
7:02a good friend of mine one of my best
7:04friends David Smith he's actually in the
7:06book I plugged him into a character he
7:09was very interested in the case and he
7:12said Tania go take a look at this Watts
7:14case it's horrific and I glanced at it
7:17quickly but I was working on own my
7:20ghost of Grey Gardens book with with my
7:22you know dear friend Louis right she's
7:2391 years old beautiful lady so we were
7:26we were writing her biography at the
7:28time and I was completely swamped with
7:29that and I believe I had a trip coming
7:34up for like a book tour out in the
7:36Hamptons and I didn't really take a look
7:39at it I want to stay in till October he
7:41might have brought it up right after it
7:42happened and I knew I wanted to write
7:45about it because
7:47I was so hurt by everything and when I
7:50you know have an emotional response to
7:52something my first instinct is to write
7:55about it and initially I wanted to do a
8:00non-fiction so I you started gathering
8:04my materials and I was gonna even ask
8:06some of the family members or some of
8:08the you know friends and acquaintances
8:11maybe neighbor Nate to contribute to the
8:14book so it will be you know words spoken
8:16from everyone from every side and then
8:19Cheryl and Kato announced her book and I
8:22believe lean I may have announced her
8:24book as well so I thought oh no there's
8:27these two non fictions coming out and
8:29especially Sheryl ins book she had so
8:31much information that none of us will
8:33ever have I assumed that it wouldn't be
8:37right for me to do another nonfiction it
8:41would be stepping on everyone's toes and
8:43I didn't want to you know I didn't want
8:46to take any thunder away from anyone
8:48else who was writing that type of book
8:51so I said well I'm gonna do it as
8:53fiction because in fiction I can tell
8:55everybody what I think without actually
8:57saying it and I can let the characters
9:00you know the victims actually have a
9:03voice which they weren't given so I
9:06wanted to make everyone aware of what
9:08they might have been thinking what
9:10experience might have been like for them
9:11and to continue on afterwards and I
9:15don't want to give anything away but I
9:18definitely wanted to give the victims a
9:21voice and I had to get into the mind of
9:22the killer in my case it was Charlie we
9:25all know he represents Chris Watts but I
9:28had to get into his mind a little bit
9:30which was scary just I felt so creepy to
9:35be able to tell the story accurately but
9:38yeah long long answer there but I think
9:41it was because my friend David that I
9:43became interested in the case mm-hmm
9:46okay so and so you touched on it just a
9:49bit earlier you found the whole
9:51experience I would imagine quite
9:53emotionally draining like going story
9:57and
9:57it was awful just tell us a little bit
10:00about that the kind of phases that you
10:01went through oh my god nice when I would
10:05stay up all night I mean I'm talking I
10:07would literally go get in bed at 8 a.m.
10:09for like two hours because I was sitting
10:12there at my keyboard crying and trying
10:14to rip through a chapter where you know
10:17the little girl is speaking or when you
10:18know the wife is speaking and about
10:20their experiences during this whole
10:23thing and I kept thinking I can't do
10:25this how in the world could I type
10:27another word you know in this horrible
10:29place and you have to feel what they
10:31feel and writing is very emotional
10:33anyway and when you write about
10:35something like this it's just it's awful
10:38but I made it through think Evans and I
10:41think they turned out something that
10:43everyone would be able to appreciate but
10:45it was horrible for me and then there
10:47were times I was cheering you know
10:49especially in the end I was thinking oh
10:51gosh you know let's hope this is the way
10:53the world works but so it was a roller
10:57coaster of emotions I probably would you
10:59know definitely say that I'm sure
11:03everybody couldn't appreciate that I
11:05mean everybody online have been on
11:07social media it's for everybody who's
11:10looked any depth into the case it's been
11:13a complete emotional drain isness yeah
11:18the whole fact of the killing in fact
11:20that you've got this seemingly normal
11:22loving father who's you know basically
11:25wiped his family nobody can understand
11:27it I think that's probably the problem a
11:29lot of people have you know how can you
11:32possibly understand somebody who does
11:34something like that so how do you it's
11:37so impossible you're correct how would
11:38you know it could be my husband it could
11:40be my neighbors has been my best friend
11:42how could you no one could see this
11:44coming in any way shape or form so I
11:46think we all have grabbed on in this
11:49case they feel like they're our family
11:50you know I feel like you know Shannon is
11:53my best buddy and we talk all the time
11:55and but you know they're not but the
11:58children oh my gosh how could you not
12:00become engrossed looking at those babies
12:02living their lives every day and then
12:05know what happened to them I think a lot
12:07of women my age are probably a very into
12:10this because we're
12:11and yet it broke my heart and I know it
12:14did everyone else too mmm
12:17I mean of course it has you know has the
12:19domestic violence side right well miss
12:23the ultimate domestic violence is if its
12:24domestic voice all the same exactly
12:27exactly so maybe a lot okay yeah yeah a
12:31lot of you know a lot of women and I'm
12:32hoping even through my book we actually
12:35put some phone numbers in the book for
12:37people who might need help and I'm
12:40hoping even with my book people can read
12:41it and if they're in that kind of
12:43situation they'll say well I you know I
12:44boy I'd better get out of it right now
12:47so it might hit home for a lot of women
12:49I'm hoping that you know at least my
12:52book that there will be some kind of a
12:54way for them to reach out and you know
12:57even for people who aren't in that
12:58situation to understand what a woman has
13:00gone through the end in her life and her
13:03babies to you know all three of her
13:05babies so yeah it's horrible all around
13:10and no one expected it you know looking
13:12at that man you know connecting those
13:14children I don't think anyone would have
13:16expected what he would do no way
13:19absolutely not not in a million years
13:21now so just I'm just interested so how
13:24much did you watch of because you
13:28obviously know around social media is a
13:30whole sort of circus of conspiracies and
13:35this happened and this happened and yeah
13:39how much of that did you look at and
13:42watch before you started white and did
13:44any of that affect your writing and
13:48there was even a week I want to say it
13:51was back in August of 2019 that I
13:54thought I read an article about Marilyn
13:57lemak who's a woman you know in
13:58Naperville did town over from me who got
14:01her kids from school and she fed them
14:06poison peanut butter crackers and killed
14:09all three of her children because her
14:11husband had an affair and was living
14:12with another woman so even for about a
14:17week you know not too long ago while I
14:19was writing the book I thought oh my
14:21gosh could shenana have done that and I
14:23feel terrible I feel very
14:25very bad forever thinking that but I had
14:27to kick around all possibilities and I
14:29wanted to see Nicole Kessinger as as the
14:32villain I did because how could she do
14:35that to a family I'm just talking about
14:37them having the affair and but I can't
14:41you know I really can't when it comes
14:43down to the technical parts the crime
14:45there's no way she would have done this
14:47but yeah I know there are a lot of
14:48theories out there and I know that
14:50people feel very strongly about their
14:52theories and that's fine I think in the
14:55end we're all just looking for justice
14:57for this beautiful family so let us
15:00think whenever we think and Touhey gets
15:02the bottom of it um I appreciate all the
15:05theories even the conspiracy ones
15:07they're kind of out there you know
15:08Nicole Atkinson had something to do with
15:10it you know whatever the case may be
15:14I think the theories are good because
15:16they need to the truth in the end and I
15:19happen to believe that Chris Watts is
15:21telling the trick now whatever he said
15:24to Cheryl and P at all I believe that's
15:26very close to what really happened
15:28unfortunately so yeah hmm yeah I do too
15:32I think and he said I think he's still
15:33leaving stuff out I think he's still
15:35certain like things that he's not saying
15:38I mean I write in my personal opinion I
15:40think he probably had already been there
15:42and probably already kind of dug the
15:44hole and stuff like that I did things
15:46like that yeah but as far as he knows
15:49his involvement I don't believe anyone
15:52else is involved at all I do not believe
15:54any other adult was involved in any of
15:56this um you know not there was a child
15:58involved in it but I don't believe in K
16:00or you know Troy or neighbor Nate or
16:03whatever
16:04none of them of course were involved
16:06there's no way and you know I was on AG
16:09show the other night and I did agree
16:11with a lot of the things he was showing
16:12me but this is his evidence is very
16:14compelling that Nicole Kissinger was
16:17involved you know it looks kind of
16:20strange those videos but it is Chris
16:24Watts I you know I don't think that
16:26isn't a woman I so many things don't
16:30make sense with that theory
16:31and so yeah I entertained the theories
16:34but I don't seriously consider them like
16:37when I thought Shannon wad
16:39I'm sorry Sam Watts I was in color reset
16:42which is probably more appropriate I
16:44don't believe she had anything to do
16:47with the babies dying even though as I
16:49mentioned this Marilyn Lee Mac close to
16:51me did exactly that with their children
16:54and she was a perfect Midwestern
16:56housewife - you know there's but no I
17:00again I entertained that theory for a
17:02moment in time just to see if maybe I
17:05could think that way and I I certainly
17:08didn't in the end I'm very ashamed for
17:11thinking that even for a second but yeah
17:14I think he's telling the truth now with
17:15his final confession but there are some
17:17details he's leaving out and one of
17:19those details that I'm fearful of is
17:23that Bella might have been alive when
17:25she went in the tank and I'm gonna be
17:28talking with a psychic on another
17:30youtube channel later this week and she
17:33has some scary visions that indicate
17:36exactly that so anyway there's so many
17:39things to consider that I think he's
17:40still living leaving out but I think
17:43we've got the most Dudek covered as far
17:45as how the crime happened but you never
17:48know who knows I really don't yeah
17:51there's probably some details that
17:53probably best not known to be honest
17:55right right definitely yeah things like
17:59that so how long did it take you sort of
18:04from start to finish two books in about
18:10three months this one took about five or
18:12six months really not very long at all
18:14no I I'm I'm a speedy writer so I think
18:19the longest book I have actually the
18:21longest word count book in the longest
18:23time it took me to write a book whatever
18:25my first one The Cure which we've got
18:29nine months to write and I hear these
18:33authors are working on books for five in
18:35six years and I just don't understand
18:37what you do with your time working on a
18:39book for that long but um no it was
18:41about five months five or six not very
18:43long at all before I send it to the
18:44publisher and if you how many sort of
18:47crime novels if you've written there's
18:49this um have you got quite a few
18:52first crime novels no I do have one
18:56novella
18:57which is a short book about 20,000 words
18:59you know about a third of what a regular
19:02book would be called severed and it's
19:08about a female serial killer but in all
19:10my stories there's always a twist ending
19:12and in this story even though she was
19:14chopping up men and making a sort of a
19:16man suit out of him in or what wasn't
19:18quite that she's trying to construct the
19:20perfect body and in the end there's a
19:23big twist where that's not what was
19:24happening at all and then I have another
19:26story in a collaboration look in the
19:29shadows or I'm sorry it was different
19:31one um it was like demons and devil it
19:34was through a different publisher who
19:35asked me to contribute and that's called
19:39the lair and it's about a man who goes
19:42around shooting up an elementary school
19:44but again nothing is the way it appears
19:47and that's not what happened really at
19:49all so as far as crying I've done those
19:51two and this is the first I've actually
19:54attempted a real crime and turned into a
19:58novel I did start writing a novel about
20:01Caylee Anthony which is about half done
20:03on my computer and I literally was doing
20:06that years ago and I'm thinking about
20:07going back to it and recently the
20:10thought of the JonBenet Ramsey horrible
20:13thing that happened I've been kicking
20:16around maybe doing a book on that as
20:18well because it's you know so far gone
20:20but I actually think I enjoy doing
20:22fiction out of you know out of the
20:25pardon me I've got a call coming in I'll
20:28brush it away and everything I do enjoy
20:32doing the fiction out of a true crime so
20:34I may do either the Caylee Anthony or
20:36there's not been a Ramsey case perhaps I
20:39don't know there's a lot I think a lot
20:40of ways I can go right now but I do
20:43enjoy writing it yes definitely even
20:45though it's terrifying and heartbreaking
20:47it was you know was a overall positive
20:51experience I think when I got it down to
20:53where I thought you know this is what
20:55people need to hear right now so yeah
20:58yeah I think it's you know from our
21:00chance perspective it's well we strongly
21:03feel that you know that all these
21:04conspiracies you know we
21:05all absurd to be unperfect nice a lot of
21:07them I can see how people think they
21:10look spelling like you say but when you
21:13kind of put sense and logic and
21:15everything else into it and obviously
21:16the facts of the discovery and the fact
21:19that the FBI obviously they know what
21:21they're doing yeah yeah you know well
21:24though it doesn't look compelling and
21:26the author and you know particularly
21:27with n K yes you did lies there's no
21:30doubt she lied there's no doubt she did
21:31some stuff that you think was a little
21:33bit dodgy yeah but I think people are
21:38sort of getting confused with moral
21:40crimes if you like with that shit'll
21:43with actual you know with the murders do
21:46you not I mean there's kind of a people
21:49are jumping from one from one to the
21:51other you can have terrible moral values
21:56and have an affair and you know be a
21:57horrible person but I don't see motive I
22:00don't see amines I mean I believe she
22:05had to be at work on August 13th
22:07she had to be there in her office and if
22:10she wasn't there at this point there's
22:12gonna be some co-worker who would come
22:14forward and say it's very strange we
22:17didn't see her around you know even to
22:19sell it to the Inquirer whatever there's
22:22gonna be someone who comes forward to
22:23say that she wasn't there in the office
22:25that morning
22:26um I don't believe that there wouldn't
22:29be and you know there's a lot of other
22:31points because I mean if she had done
22:34this and she was at the Watts home how
22:38did she get out of there the back the
22:41back door maybe but it would be there's
22:44no reason for it there's no reason for
22:46any of it she's not gonna meet a man you
22:49know say I'm gonna kill your babies the
22:51next month or two
22:52even if they were together for a year I
22:54can't see that I really can't see her
22:56doing that no no sense it doesn't it
23:00makes no sense I don't know if it's ever
23:02been a case like that before in history
23:04oh well not never found anything like
23:07that it's just like you say they've
23:09known each other I mean there is just
23:10gray area isn't there they apparently
23:13they only knew each other since June the
23:15text that they recovered only reflect
23:17that everything
23:18right that but you've got these weird
23:20searches from a long time ago
23:22and I don't understand that's the only
23:25part of the mystery that keeps me you
23:27know intrigued is that why would she
23:29have searched for him before she met him
23:31mmm that's very odd unless the dates
23:34were wrong um I don't know what do you
23:38think about that
23:39yeah I've told you that idea is a typo
23:43the dates wrong because I think in the
23:48discovery at references they're 111
23:51minute phone call that's 51 minutes I
23:55believe in the discovery yeah sorry I
24:01must've missed that one I'm pretty sure
24:03there's obviously a phone bill says 111
24:05minutes but I'm pretty sure in the
24:06discovery they put one minutes so they
24:09were wrong right yeah mom discovery but
24:13um yeah I don't know I don't I mean even
24:17if she say she was a stalker and she
24:19stalked them yeah that's very weird and
24:27yes but again it it doesn't make her
24:33complicit in the murders doesn't it
24:35doesn't you can't jump from that to I
24:37don't think I got a clean jump from that
24:39to murder no no I don't think so and I
24:43think that as she found out during the
24:45day that they were missing and he was
24:47not answering her questions in a
24:49straight and logical manner I think she
24:51the woman panicked and she thought oh my
24:54gosh that my boyfriend has killed his
24:57whole family I sure don't want to be
24:59implicated I'm gonna delete all my text
25:01and all of my contacts with this man
25:04right now and then her mistake was to go
25:07to the you know the police and tell them
25:11oh I deleted all his stuff because I
25:13lied to me and I don't want a liar you
25:15know anywhere in my life that wasn't
25:18true she deleted everything so she
25:20wouldn't be implicated simple you know I
25:22probably do the same thing I would panic
25:25and think oh no now I'm gonna get you
25:28know the police breathing down my neck
25:29because they have all these texts to him
25:31and I
25:32some are checks even said things like
25:35will truly be free when you get rid of
25:37your wives type of thing and which of
25:41course probably was her thought but I
25:43think that she was terrified that people
25:45would misconstrue those statements and
25:48so she deleted everything and she should
25:50have been honest with the police
25:52department and the FBI certainly and
25:54said I deleted them because I was
25:56terrified that I would look guilty um
25:58but yeah I don't know you know any other
26:01explanation for that and the thing about
26:04googling the whole family a year prior I
26:07I can't wrap my head around that one
26:09either and I don't know you know I don't
26:11if the dates were correct we need to
26:13know why I agree with that we definitely
26:16need to know why she would have done
26:17that for people she didn't even know and
26:20she didn't work with them at the tiny
26:21him no he is extremely sorry I should
26:42say the FBI clearly put her in just some
26:45are breaking up now okay
26:49the FBI clearly put her into some kind
26:52of protection program didn't they
26:54they've clearly helped her help to get
26:57out of it because the fact that there's
26:59no trace of her no one's heard from her
27:06formal type of program because she
27:08doesn't qualify I believe that there
27:10were a bunch of people in the FBI and
27:13the CBI and even the local police
27:15department who felt sorry for her and
27:18I'd like to push it a little further and
27:20say that she may have been pregnant
27:22there before she got all this sympathy
27:26and they said well we'll pull a few
27:29strings and make it easier for you to
27:31disappear just you know gather your own
27:33money or your dad's or whatever and go
27:35and I think that's the only way it could
27:37worked out and I do believe people like
27:39Tammy Lee or you know bond over a lot of
27:43the people who are right
27:44at Ground Zero we feel sorry for this
27:46woman and even think if she would have
27:49stayed with this man she'd be next type
27:51of thing but yeah I think they helped
27:53her but not officially or formally I
27:55think they simply maybe doctored some
27:58documents or something like that to make
28:00it easier for her to go away yeah and I
28:02think she could have a baby I think so
28:07yeah I guess it could be I mean she was
28:12quite promiscuous I think wasn't she it
28:14could be anyone's if that was if I was
28:16true it could be anyone's baby anyway
28:18couldn't it it could you're correct but
28:20I think she might have thought it was
28:21Watts baby and in which case you know I
28:25mean like I said I don't if you've
28:27gotten to that part in the book oh sorry
28:28eyes giveaway a big thing but would I be
28:31fear for my home sorry I'd be fearful my
28:33whole life that child would have
28:38antisocial personality disorder you know
28:40like the father if that was the case I
28:42don't know better other friends or
28:44boyfriends or whatever but I would be
28:47terrified I'd get a paternity test right
28:49away
28:49and I mean I just watched the child grow
28:53and I'd probably obsess about it so much
28:55that the poor kid would you know go
28:57through Torrance ruin is his or her mom
28:59but yeah I think there were I think that
29:04they would feel that sympathy for her if
29:05she had been pregnant
29:06and I think that might have been the
29:08thing that you know tipped them over the
29:10ledge it was wanting to help her because
29:13this poor lady you know look where she
29:15is she could have been next and now
29:17she's carrying a baby that might be his
29:20so yeah I think she had help getting
29:22away for certain yeah like I know that
29:25there's another point which leads me to
29:27believe that there's obviously something
29:30that they saw or they know for sure that
29:32she wasn't involved because they didn't
29:34they wouldn't have done that
29:35they wouldn't have I mean even you know
29:38she has family said they asked multiple
29:40timed many many times you know what did
29:42it was anyone else involved and they
29:45made it clear hello no and I can't be
29:47the FBI went you know when it comes to
29:49children they don't they're not going to
29:51let someone yes why not scot-free yeah
29:53they're not gonna let someone walk away
29:54and there must be
29:57compiling evidence she was where she
29:59said she was supposed to be and I don't
30:02understand that ping in the morning
30:04after Christmas and I already driven
30:06away to go bury his family I don't
30:09understand that except for the fact that
30:11perhaps she you know I took it a little
30:13yeah in this direction a bit in the book
30:15that she was stalking them I don't have
30:16her stocking them in the morning oh
30:18because I thought that would be going
30:19too far but I do believe she may have
30:22frequently pulled up in front of the
30:24house and just sat there and watched and
30:26listened and she may very well have been
30:28upset because she danced she knew
30:30Shannon came home the night before and
30:31she couldn't get a hold of Chris or when
30:35she did it was very short you know brief
30:37texts or whatever and she was concerned
30:40that they reconciled or something so she
30:43drove by the house at 6:30 that morning
30:46to see if she can see Shannon and the
30:48girls you know getting in a car going
30:49places doing whatever or to see if chris
30:52was still there maybe and but I think
30:55that might be why she pinged and what
30:57terrible luck to do that you know to
30:59have this morning where you're driving
31:01by and you make a phone call or whatever
31:03and you get a ping so yeah I think that
31:06that was coincidental and it might have
31:07had to do with her stocking hmm I mean
31:10if she couldn't even the possibility
31:12obviously that conversation you know
31:15that night on the 12th may have made in
31:17a very poignant pivotal conversation you
31:20know yeah Chris may have said you know
31:22right tonight I'm gonna you know make
31:25that change or whatever that she was
31:26hoping right right and then maybe that
31:28morning she yeah maybe that morning she
31:31just just happened to want to go and
31:34nose by and see if he was making so yeah
31:39yeah yeah I do and unfortunately that
31:43coupled with the fact that she deleted
31:44her text and lied about the reason why
31:47she did it I think that those two
31:49factors right there plus the Google
31:52searches if they didn't got to careí
31:54year before make her look terribly
31:56guilty and we all want to blame her and
31:58I see her as another victim and I know
32:01everyone's gonna hate me but I that's
32:03what I think that she's a woman who
32:06could potentially been another victim in
32:07the way she was treated and how it all
32:09came out and
32:11the fact that you know perhaps he did
32:14this because of her she is a victim and
32:17she'll have years and years of
32:18psychological trouble because look at
32:22where she's been and what happened to
32:24her so um I think I don't I don't want
32:29to blame her perhaps as much as other
32:31people might want to blame her because
32:32she is the mistress you know and
32:34everyone hates the mistress but um yeah
32:38I don't know I don't know I think that's
32:40the thing isn't it she I mean she
32:41straight away she's going to be hated
32:44isn't she before anything because she's
32:47the mistress she's gonna be you know and
32:50I think there's a whole psychological
32:51aspect behind that you know she's a
32:56mistress and how how dare she and we've
32:59all got husbands and you know we don't
33:00want to ever see an MK in our lives and
33:03I think that um it's easier to just you
33:07know slap her in prison where we think
33:09she belongs and and that'll be into it
33:12but I don't think she did anything and
33:13some of these own conspiracy theories
33:16are so elaborate that so many things
33:19would have to come together in order to
33:21make them work and I can't understand
33:23that there's no way it but usually the
33:26simplest was that um oh gosh would I
33:28forget the name of the the name of the
33:32statement or the name of the quote but
33:34um the simplest answer is usually the
33:37correct answer and I think that the
33:41simplest answer is that he did it yeah
33:43no he did it all of it yeah it's like
33:47Occam's razor isn't it the simplicity
33:52yeah you know no I did hear you touching
33:55it for instance you know this so-called
33:57Nicole walking out the house you know
34:00and I heard you say you know you've then
34:02got to believe that she would go to the
34:04links of dressing up like Chris yeah I
34:10carry a handbag yeah carry a handbag on
34:12his shoulder I mean it's kind of absurd
34:15really well I know with my purse I carry
34:18it everywhere oh my gosh if I go to you
34:20know Vegas or to an amusement park or
34:22something I'll do you like the fanny
34:23pack thing and it might feel so
34:25you know empty not hearing my big ugly
34:28person um so a lot of women would cling
34:30cling to the handbag I don't think
34:32that's necessarily out of place or out
34:34of character but I don't think she's
34:36gonna put on a pair of ugly man Jean I
34:39mean no one's gonna see her and his
34:41shirt or a long-sleeve black shirt and
34:44even go as far as putting on some
34:46oversized black boots but not tying her
34:50hair up let me ask you pant well I've
34:51got very thin hair horrible hair but she
34:54had long thick hair but she could
34:56definitely tie it up into a bun and put
35:01a baseball cap over it and just have
35:03Chris wear another baseball cap it was
35:06it would have been so easy to do why
35:08would you leave your ponytail hanging if
35:10you're dressing up like your killer
35:12boyfriend or whatever the boyfriend you
35:15killed for and why we eat the house at
35:17all with the plan was I mean maybe she
35:19people think maybe she helped with the
35:21bodies in the car or something like that
35:24I don't I don't think any woman
35:26especially you know she's younger than
35:28me I can't see a younger woman wanting
35:30to she would be haunted forever and ever
35:35and ever it would destroy her life yeah
35:37yeah I can't see it no way
35:40plus you have a camera there there's no
35:42footage of her ever arriving there you
35:46know that's the only piece of footage
35:47you know it just happens to be the
35:50footage that we all have of of Chris
35:52laughing you know it's just and we have
35:55people who say she accident and interred
35:57through the back door that's entirely
35:58possible and I can't debunk that and I
36:00think in the book there is one point
36:02where I have her in Turkey or the back
36:03door because of the cameras so I mean
36:06that's entirely possible she could got
36:07in there and she could have left there
36:09but I don't know I don't know I don't
36:12think no one's gonna do all that unless
36:16the I mean I thought from the beginning
36:17well if she was involved he should have
36:20had her you know wear a baseball cap let
36:23her hair down wear some sunglasses and
36:26pulled the Lexus out of the garage and
36:28just go dump it somewhere
36:29she looks enough like Shannon where no
36:32one would see it and certainly no
36:33cameras but it would be that would have
36:36been an excellent plan if she hadn't
36:38done that
36:39by noon when Nicola Atkinson got there I
36:44don't know when she was planning to do
36:46it all the while staying out of work
36:47that late and now there's no way and
36:50then going and clocking out at 3:00
36:52which would have been what two three
36:53hours afterwards no I don't know I know
36:57it sort of says plus it shows in the
36:59discovery they got her full mobile phone
37:02records you know not just the I haven't
37:04put it in the discovery but that didn't
37:07just get her phone bill showing calls
37:09they got her full her full record right
37:12yeah which shows every single satellite
37:14every single cell I'm sure between you
37:21know 8:00 a.m. and noon she pinged
37:25several times in her office you know
37:28we're not looking at things that we
37:29probably have evidence for but it hasn't
37:32been put out there I haven't seen
37:34anything about her cell phone records
37:35that morning have you and it all except
37:38for the 630 ping in front you know near
37:41the watch zone
37:42yeah I don't know where she was the rest
37:44of the day no no they've only given the
37:46verizon phone records Ram okay
37:49I just wish the law enforcement will
37:50just put something out just just just
37:52just kind of shove you wanna write a
37:55statement at least to say please you
37:57know we appreciate your help but we need
38:00to sell this matter once and for all
38:02we've surelly investigated her and she
38:04had nothing whatsoever to do with the
38:06crime period but they won't I really
38:08wish they would you know if not for the
38:11just the family's sake folks both sides
38:13of the family need to have a definitive
38:16answer about this woman's involvement
38:20and I think I my heart breaks for the
38:22Reese ex I mean there's especially
38:25Frankie there they're just so crushed of
38:30course and I think they're dealing with
38:33something that they really can't even at
38:35this point deal with and just for their
38:39sake I wish law enforcement would say
38:41she is clear you guys we just leave her
38:45alone she's cleared I you know you don't
38:47have to like her but leave her alone I
38:49wish they'd do that they haven't or even
38:51Tammy to say that because she
38:53seems to be a wonderful lady I want her
38:56as a friend too but she even if she came
39:00out and said that publicly that would
39:02change everything I think what maybe
39:04it's not maybe they'd say oh well
39:06they're helping cover it up because they
39:07have their man and they don't want us to
39:09worry about it any further and they'll
39:12always say something about everything
39:14you know people out there at large and
39:16yeah so they haven't I wish they would -
39:19mm-hmm
39:20that's just how I like to say that
39:22people would always say it's a cover-up
39:24or the DEA yeah you know it's um Brendon
39:32if the woman comes out you know makes a
39:35TV show or writes a book or whatever
39:37about her experience with this man and
39:41with the whole crime no one's gonna
39:43listen to him when they're everyone's
39:44gonna twist it and organization was
39:47guilty no matter what I understand that
39:50need to have this evil old mistress
39:54blame for something well she can be
39:58blamed for having an affair with a
39:59married man but she didn't cause him to
40:02kill them even if his you know pea brain
40:05you know made him kill them because of
40:07her existing it's not her fault there's
40:10no way no way no and also it takes away
40:14from you know what Chris did as well
40:17doesn't it when people talk about all of
40:20this yes you know it's almost like the
40:23projection their disgust at Chris onto
40:26onto inkay almost right and white right
40:31why can't he do it why can't never other
40:34there's been quite a few recent him
40:36there where men have killed their
40:38families it's not like this is worse
40:41where women have killed too but I don't
40:44think this young woman who doesn't have
40:48any children of her own would kill
40:50babies you know I there's no way no way
40:54she had a degree as well she's got a
40:56degree in do you guys believe she's
40:59quite intelligent on a guest yeah have
41:01no Dewberry myself actually why at that
41:04age would you throw your life away like
41:06that
41:07a completely crazy like that it just
41:08doesn't make sense right right there's
41:10no there's no woman alive that I know of
41:12who would do that and certainly there
41:14are you know psychopathic killers the
41:17chance that these two people would mean
41:20both of them having murderous tendencies
41:22it's just if it would have been
41:24something that went on since childhood
41:26maybe they knew each other when they
41:27were children and you know they had this
41:29big connection for many many many years
41:32and they just started seeing each other
41:34romantically I could see maybe if they
41:37were both sort of crazy that they would
41:39possibly get together and plan something
41:41like that but in the position she was in
41:44even with Chris there's no way there's
41:47no way you wouldn't do that unless she
41:49was stark raving mad - I don't think so
41:52though I really don't think so
41:54no I mean she certainly came across not
41:57very in their interview she certainly
41:58didn't come across very well I admit
42:01that and she does know she down shady
42:03and she does sound she is telling some
42:05rise in there and being so deep and
42:11Scratchy and a lot of times we take
42:13women like that and you know for
42:15whatever reason we'll named Jezebel or
42:18you know whatever because she had that
42:20deep voice that people just don't like
42:23my daughter has a deeper voice and you
42:25know she gets in trouble all the time
42:27that she's rude or what she's not she's
42:28got a deeper voice and unfortunately
42:32I've got a hi little mouse voice but um
42:34I think that her voice in the way she
42:36says things had people thinking that
42:40she's got to be hiding something just
42:43listen to her she has to be hiding
42:44something and I don't think she is
42:47except for the fact that she deleted
42:48everything about Chris so that she
42:51wouldn't look she wouldn't look guilty
42:53and that was the wrong thing to do
42:55because she looks exactly that she looks
42:57guilty because she did all that which is
43:00a shame you know yeah well in a day the
43:03fact is they you know they recovered all
43:04of her messages and text anyway they did
43:07there is no there was nothing in those
43:09texts to suggest anything she would have
43:13been involved they just sounded like I
43:15mean she sounded a little bit immature
43:17and naive to me they didn't really say
43:20like they were deeply in love or
43:22anything like that
43:24but he thought he thought perhaps this
43:27was lovin and I think that again I
43:30believe and I've argued with people who
43:32are actually close to the family that he
43:34is a psychopath and or a sociopath
43:37and I believe he definitely is and he
43:40didn't have any real emotions and he
43:42didn't know what love was so why not
43:44think this is love and this is worthy of
43:46murder because he didn't have any any
43:49real emotions so I can certainly see
43:52that but not Nicole she didn't do you
43:56seem to be fairly normal even less she's
43:59a little odd a little bit of an oddball
44:00that's okay I don't think they would get
44:02together and do this and I there's no
44:04reason why she would get her friends
44:06together to kill this family and drag
44:10christen to it and that he'd be afraid
44:12of her afterwards there's no way not at
44:15all it went along with a scheme to kill
44:17his own babies he's not gonna care if
44:20someone's threatening to kill his
44:21elderly mom or dad you know I don't
44:23think I don't believe that at all no no
44:25yeah and people you know some people say
44:27oh you know Chris could never have done
44:29that you know you just look at him he's
44:31just such a normal guy right he wouldn't
44:34have known what to do but then you
44:35listen to his interviews and he sat
44:37there talking about what happened as if
44:40it's just another day exactly so clearly
44:47huge huge psychological issues there
44:51with Chris that people just seem
44:52oberstar big normal all the time right
44:55right and I've heard other people give
44:57me an alternate diagnosis about what he
45:00might have what his mental diagnosis
45:04might be but I still say sociopath or
45:07psychopath and the way that I noticed is
45:10how he was able to acclimate to any
45:14situation he was able to act like the
45:17perfect nice guy that you want next door
45:19or you want your husband to work with or
45:21whatever he put on a mask that was so
45:25good and a lot of Psychopaths do that
45:27they wear eye masks and they conceal who
45:30they really are all their lives and they
45:32can be quite charming I think
45:34was very charming if you watch him
45:36playing with those little girls that are
45:38you know interacting with Shannon you
45:40think oh a nice guy and a lot of times
45:43they are that way until they act on
45:45until something because of their lack of
45:49real emotion causes them to explode in
45:52some way they don't have them and you
45:54listen to him talking about it just like
45:57he's talking about a party he attended
45:59or something you know it's not theirs
46:01it's it's scary to listen to him talk
46:03about this I I don't know what else to
46:06say about his mental health except that
46:09I believe he's a sociopath or psychopath
46:11exactly I'm still still elicits no
46:14emotion to see about it even in all of
46:17his interviews he's not you know really
46:20he's not broken down or shown any other
46:23way that any normal person would do and
46:28that he can't be in shock this much time
46:30later no way no no and that I mean that
46:34that's why it's important that people
46:36you know see past all of these
46:38ridiculous of conspiracies and all this
46:40kind of stuff start to actually look at
46:42Chris you know why he did what he did
46:45how he did and if we're gonna get
46:47anything anything positive or any [ __ ]
46:51of light to come from this you know what
46:53can we learn from it you know how can
46:55right what can we learn from it how can
46:57we recognize it in our own lives and I
47:00don't think we can if someone has
47:02antisocial personality disorder I don't
47:05have to be read in Elena's book but she
47:08says that when they do snap we say where
47:12did my old best friend or where my old
47:14husband go or you know whatever he was
47:18and the thing is that the person they're
47:21being when they do snap and do something
47:23horrific that is their real person
47:25inside of them they simply remove the
47:28mask and I think he wore a mask all of
47:30his life which is why he didn't want to
47:33get in trouble with anyone he didn't
47:36want to tip over that belief that he was
47:39an all-around good guy and anytime
47:42anyone disapproved of him he's thinking
47:46oh gosh they know they know they know
47:47that
47:48not this person I portray myself to be
47:50so it all fits with antisocial
47:52personality disorder in my opinion I
47:54could be completely wrong but I know
47:57Lina jolly she kind of follows the same
48:01theory throughout her book and I did in
48:04mine and I think you may notice that
48:07when I mentioned that you might Early's
48:09actually aware of his shortcomings and
48:11he's aware that he doesn't have the
48:13proper feelings or emotion that everyone
48:15else would have and I wonder if Chris
48:17had that feeling as well maybe maybe not
48:19maybe I'm sure a lot of Psychopaths
48:21don't know that they are one you know
48:24one of them so I don't know hmm ah scary
48:27very very scary yeah
48:30absolutely I mean do you think it you
48:33know if it wasn't NK it would have
48:35happened
48:35some other time do you think he was just
48:38a ticking time bomb or do you think it
48:41was their dances and gosh I don't know I
48:44think the fact that I believe he
48:46pre-planned it maybe even a month
48:48beforehand I think that it was gonna
48:51happen because he was tired of that you
48:55know that was they didn't give him
48:56pleasure anymore and I don't even know
49:00if there was I doubt there was real love
49:02there so I think that the first woman
49:05who showed him interest he used that as
49:07an excuse to finally get rid of the
49:10things that no longer he no longer enjoy
49:13I hate to say that but it could have
49:16been anyone else he thought this was
49:18this was the one and I believe she was
49:22the catalyst but not she didn't know she
49:25was of course but I think it could have
49:28happened down the road with another one
49:30or not even with a woman just because
49:32you didn't want them around me yeah
49:34that's a terrifying thing isn't it
49:36because I know the area I've no doubt
49:38that she never felt very loved he I know
49:41her family loved Chris very much oh yeah
49:44so it must be terrifying to felt that
49:48love from somebody when actually it was
49:50just hidden behind this black mask
49:54terrifying you know I agree
49:56I don't know if it's really a black
49:58thing or more like emptiness whereas you
50:00and I if we
50:02accidentally step on our children's toe
50:03or something we feel like we're gonna
50:05die because we heard some only love but
50:08I think that if you don't have that love
50:10if you don't know what love is and you
50:12don't have emotion and you only know
50:15happiness or or you know what you want
50:18or or what makes you unhappy you're not
50:22gonna feel anything you you'll not only
50:24step on your kids toes but you throw
50:26them in oil tanks because why not you
50:29don't have any emotions about any of
50:31that whatsoever
50:34so yeah I it's just yeah I wish we could
50:39analyze him I would love to talk to him
50:41and well I wouldn't love to talk to him
50:43I think I kind of creeped out by that
50:45but I know that I would love to get a
50:46chance to actually analyze him and
50:48figure out and what makes him tick I
50:51don't think anyone knows at this point I
50:52don't even think his own family knows
50:54really no I don't know if you did the
50:57thing is I don't think you'd ever really
50:59get the full truth out of him I don't
51:01know if yeah if you ever would yeah
51:06difficult one in my purse opinion I
51:09think you know he went to those lengths
51:11with the tanks because he wanted just
51:15for them to never be found and I think
51:17in his head he thought that was a place
51:18where they would never be found if you
51:22know what I mean right
51:22he didn't want to do that they could
51:24never get out that was one of his I
51:27believe that was definitely one of his
51:29motives for putting them in there and I
51:31have a psychic friend who's actually
51:33gonna do a show with me on this murder
51:35later this week and she's told me one
51:38frightening realization that she had a
51:42vision that she had about these children
51:44and it indicates that they may not have
51:46been dead when you put him in put them
51:48in the tanks and I have that tear at
51:52least rubella I have that terrible
51:55feeling that she may have not she may
51:57have been knocked out she may have just
51:59been asleep I I don't think she was
52:02completely gone
52:03I really don't and that's horrible
52:06I hope yeah I hope Purcell just screw
52:13the other thing I think it's not our
52:14idea I want to entertain
52:16neither but on obviously particular own
52:18opinions but um oh sure yeah of course
52:21you know I I appreciate everyone's
52:23opinion about everything I would never
52:25be angry with someone because they have
52:28a different opinion from mine which is
52:29what I think people out there in the
52:31cyber sleuthing world they're all
52:33forgetting that we're just trying to
52:35come to a conclusion so we can have
52:38justice for these babies and they're
52:39beautiful mom and so many people argue
52:42over people not having the same theory
52:45but who cares we're all heading towards
52:48the same goal of making sure that we
52:50understand why and I know people ever
52:52understand why no matter what we do
52:54mm-hmm I suppose it's difficult you know
52:57just some would say you know person I
53:00feel that kind of justice has been
53:01served you know I think Chris is
53:04imprisoned you were solely responsible
53:08and you know I think you'll get hmm yep
53:14he's in prison where he belongs and he's
53:17the only one who needs to be there
53:18that's it you know yeah there's no
53:21feel-good in any of this is there even
53:23you know now justice there's no it's
53:26always gonna be a horrendous dark evil
53:29there's never gonna be justice for it I
53:33mean I I would almost want there to be
53:36someone else involved because I don't
53:38want to think these babies knew their
53:40daddy was hurting them and it was him I
53:42really would you know almost really
53:44enjoy the fact that inkay or anybody was
53:47involved in it so that maybe they didn't
53:49have to look at their dad I don't know
53:52mmm I mean yeah we've got a subscriber
53:57to the channel you did a really good
53:58article actually on Nicole Kessinger we
54:01made a video about it are you okay if I
54:03just bring him bring him on he's um he's
54:09got some really interesting theories on
54:11name Kay and why people choose to kind
54:15of try and incriminate her oh yeah
54:18fascinating bring em on
54:20yes I bear me two seconds and I will I
54:24make this possible
54:28how's it going just gonna find him okay
54:57hopefully yeah if you'll be able to pick
55:02up hello hello yeah hello
55:17oh look oh hi there is that Andrew hey
55:21how you doing yeah I'm good thanks um
55:27with me Tania okay I think he's just
55:38muting is I'm youtube I was a good feet
55:41okay can you hear me now
55:42yeah can he everywhere yeah okay I had
55:46you I go ahead and cut the YouTube feed
55:48because it was the way was causing some
55:50problems our no problem so so yes so
55:54we've got Tania on of course now as I
55:57was saying say entertain you we did I
55:59did your article couple weeks came up
56:02very interesting article about you know
56:03Nicole Kissinger's involvement and how
56:05people want to loathe her and stuff
56:08because of you know her so-called
56:10involvement so I just wanted to you know
56:14if you want to just sort of a library a
56:16bit on what drove you to write that
56:18piece and why you think you know people
56:21have to have these kind of conspiracies
56:24and stuff well let me start by saying
56:29that I understand the the people who are
56:36upset with her and feel that what she
56:39did was was pretty horrible
56:41I understand that it brings home for a
56:44lot of people their own figures of
56:47infidelity of betrayal of a lack of of
56:51really understanding who you're married
56:53to her you with so there's no one I
56:56don't think and and I would count myself
56:57in this camp I would say that what she
57:00did was okay however I think that where
57:03I started to see a problem was the idea
57:07that because she was guilty of engaging
57:09in an affair and by the way it should be
57:11pointed out that she wasn't the one that
57:13was married he was he was the one who
57:15had taken marriage vows and from all
57:18that we know she was also being told by
57:21him that his marriage was for all intent
57:24and purpose over I they were getting
57:27divorced or they released gonna be
57:29separating it made perfect sense she's
57:31back to North Carolina for you know for
57:34multiple weeks and so I think he was
57:36telling her that I think that there's a
57:38lot of evidence to suggest that that was
57:40the line he was using that doesn't
57:42necessarily excuse it however I think
57:45it's important to put everything in
57:47context and I think where I started to
57:49become concerned was when I saw people
57:52equating the affair with the murder and
57:56not drawing a distinction between those
57:59two things and that became a pretty big
58:01problem for me and in understanding the
58:06idea that one can be guilty of an affair
58:10and not be guilty of the crime that
58:14occurred involving Chris and his family
58:16and I and I think that that's where
58:19Nicole found herself and I think that
58:22it's also evident in the way she
58:24responded and real quick to you know it
58:28I always think it's interesting when you
58:29look deeper into these cases that you
58:32kind of ask yourself so what was the
58:34plan
58:35Nicole is involved in a plot or a
58:38conspiracy to kill and she's known for
58:41several months in his entire family and
58:43on the day after she decides to do
58:47Google searches for how long police can
58:49keep your your your messages or your how
58:52long the phone company keeps text
58:53messages
58:55this this is not someone who had a plan
58:57this is someone who just found out that
58:59her worst nightmare came true and she's
59:01panicking and everything about her
59:02actions thereafter to me at least looks
59:06like understandable panic this one but
59:09that's not somebody who plotted this you
59:11wouldn't do that you wouldn't wait until
59:14the morning
59:14did the whole things about to blow up
59:17and they'd say you know what I should
59:18probably check and see how long phone
59:20companies hold on to this stuff it makes
59:22no sense yeah and that's just one of
59:24many examples but that's that's what
59:26kind of inspired me to write it real
59:29quick I want to thank the owner of crime
59:33Piper who did post the article
59:35originally there's a lot early great
59:36true French stuff over there if
59:38anybody's interested in going to check
59:39it out and and I'm very grateful that it
59:42was posted over there and also promoted
59:44very heavily and and of course Chris
59:46thank you for for picking up on it and
59:48and reaching out to me and let me talk a
59:52little bit about it too yeah but so I
59:55think it's important people do cover all
59:57bases gab a balanced view I think people
1:00:00go too much one way and they don't they
1:00:02ignore certain things like you said
1:00:04there and Tania I'm sure would agree
1:00:05Chris no doubt Drake told her many many
1:00:08lies right because a liar right so he he
1:00:14would have probably she probably in her
1:00:15head just thinking yeah you know he is
1:00:18gonna their marriage is crumbling he's
1:00:20not interested in her you know he's
1:00:22probably telling their one thing
1:00:24obviously doing another that's pretty
1:00:35it's very Christmas know going coming no
1:00:39I think to I mean ask ourselves the
1:00:41question there are two famous cases some
1:00:46people listening may remember are one
1:00:48involving a woman named Diane Downes
1:00:49years ago and rule wrote a book about
1:00:52her called small sacrifices and then
1:00:55they're more recently was Susan Smith
1:00:57where believeth in South Carolina both
1:01:01of those women were linked in some ways
1:01:04to the crimes they committed because of
1:01:08least a wish for a continued romance
1:01:10with a man or an affair that had ended
1:01:13that was ended in part because of her
1:01:16having children I wonder if anybody can
1:01:18name either of those two men no sorry
1:01:30I'm very familiar with bookcases but I
1:01:32don't remember the names now boy and so
1:01:35I guess that's part of the question
1:01:36though we remember in a coal but no one
1:01:40remit no one gives any kind of cover to
1:01:44die and downs or to Susan Smith because
1:01:47of affairs that were going on in both of
1:01:50their lives or had ended because of
1:01:52children no one remembers those guys
1:01:54then I realize that was before you know
1:01:56social media 24-hour news shows and the
1:01:59unprecedented access we had into the
1:02:01watts case but I do think it's
1:02:03interesting the level of sort of in my
1:02:06opinion the level of cover sort of
1:02:08having the easy way of saying well we
1:02:11really you know we really need to hold
1:02:13her to account and in so doing I think
1:02:17we do and Chris mentioned it earlier I
1:02:19think at least there's the opportunity
1:02:22to lend a bit of cover to the fact that
1:02:24this man this this terrible garbage
1:02:27human being named Chris Watts decided to
1:02:29murder his entire family I think we need
1:02:32to be consistent if we're gonna say that
1:02:34Affairs lead to familicide I think we
1:02:36need to ask ourselves why we don't seem
1:02:39to put the same level of responsibility
1:02:43on the men that were involved with found
1:02:44and Smith and by the way Smith stood
1:02:47there on camera and and cried her eyes
1:02:50out over her missing children and yes
1:02:52and she was as guilty as heck and and I
1:02:54hear the people about Nicole's lack of
1:02:57emotion but I also know that Nicole
1:03:00couldn't play that right no matter what
1:03:02she did if she'd sat in the interview
1:03:03room with Kovac cried for three hours
1:03:06and everyone would assist thank you so
1:03:10no I agree and I don't know why we
1:03:13wouldn't quite the same finger at men
1:03:15who were involved in those previous
1:03:16crimes as well and they weren't really
1:03:17involved they were just people that
1:03:20these women killed there
1:03:22children in order to be with them and
1:03:24and you are correct I don't remember
1:03:26either one of those gentlemen at all but
1:03:29I think look from when I remember was
1:03:31Susan Smith he didn't want to be with
1:03:33her at all and one of the reasons was
1:03:36because she had the children and I think
1:03:39he might have even been using that as an
1:03:41excuse just to get away from her I don't
1:03:42know but it's easier to point fingers at
1:03:46the woman well for one thing I think
1:03:48it's because a lot of us who follow this
1:03:50case our mothers and we are women and we
1:03:53all you know a lot of us do have
1:03:54husbands and we think wow I'm just gonna
1:03:58blame her because she's our worst
1:04:00nightmare come true
1:04:01you know it happens to my husband
1:04:03there's gonna be an inkay bind it you
1:04:05know so I think that a lot of people who
1:04:08follow to primer women you know around
1:04:10my age group who are live in a similar
1:04:13situation and they are always fearful of
1:04:16a mistress type of thing and so let's
1:04:18just make her the enemy it's so much fun
1:04:21no I as much as I feel negatively
1:04:24towards her because of what she did you
1:04:26know because of the affair there's no
1:04:28way I'm gonna pen murder on her there's
1:04:30no way unless there was evidence of some
1:04:32sort but yeah yeah and that's the fact
1:04:37there is no real concrete evidence now
1:04:40no you know this kind of very things
1:04:43look a little bit iffy right there's
1:04:45nothing there that would clearly be
1:04:48there right if like like Drew was saying
1:04:54you know they're not born in why they're
1:04:55not the perfect plot this it wasn't a
1:04:59plan or anything like that you know if
1:05:07this was a plan it was quite possibly
1:05:10the worst one ever so again you know
1:05:13assume that they had some kind of a deal
1:05:15worked out so what part of it involved
1:05:17her contacting the police and basically
1:05:20turning herself in as the person having
1:05:23the affair and it makes no sense
1:05:25um you know in and I know people have
1:05:28suggested well you know Anadarko was
1:05:30gonna spill that so she was trying to
1:05:31get ahead of it but at the end of the
1:05:33day I mean the
1:05:35two are out you know this very weekend
1:05:38that this occurs they're out in public
1:05:39at a restaurant they're having a 111
1:05:42minute phone conversation the night of
1:05:44the issue I mean you don't see two
1:05:47people involved in stealing a candy bar
1:05:49from a grocery store would think that
1:05:51maybe just maybe having a hundred and
1:05:53eleven minute phone conversation prior
1:05:55to the commission of the crimes might
1:05:57look a little suspicious right yeah I
1:06:00agree
1:06:01everything they did do it's just
1:06:04they did look a little bit suspicious
1:06:07for various reasons but there's no way I
1:06:11can wrap my head around this woman who
1:06:14is completely normal if it's annoying
1:06:16lady would would kill children and
1:06:20another woman I can't even I don't even
1:06:24think Chris told her this is gonna
1:06:25happen or this has happened it was all
1:06:27me I don't think she was even involved
1:06:29in having any knowledge whatsoever of
1:06:32anything that happened I think she
1:06:33realized it the next day and she got
1:06:36very scared you know thinking that oh my
1:06:39gosh could this man I don't really know
1:06:41that well really do this I could better
1:06:43head off to the police department tell
1:06:45them everything I know and I send my
1:06:50article as well they look there were
1:06:53some things obviously that she did that
1:06:55don't look great and leaving the text
1:06:58messages obviously does not look great
1:07:00the the deception on uncertain levels
1:07:04that when she was talking to police
1:07:06don't look great but I also kind of
1:07:08weigh that against a person who wants to
1:07:11get as far away from this as absolutely
1:07:13possible and in trying to understand who
1:07:17that you know you thought you know the
1:07:21worst she could have ever imagined I am
1:07:23I'm guessing here that the worst that
1:07:25she could have ever imagined would be
1:07:27that the affair would be discovered by
1:07:29Shannon yeah she would never have
1:07:32entertained the notion great that though
1:07:35that the worst that could happen was
1:07:37that that he would do what he did and
1:07:40that all of the fallout from that and
1:07:43and understanding the implications and
1:07:45how it was going to immediately look I
1:07:47don't think
1:07:48and her into her mind that this was a
1:07:51possibility and again I figure things to
1:07:53point to that going and searching for
1:07:54the apartments and looking for multiple
1:07:57rooms I think the fact that she wasn't
1:08:00willing to let him move in with her
1:08:01which again does not strike me as a
1:08:04woman who's like just get away from her
1:08:06whatever for the cost whatever you have
1:08:08to do you can always come live with me
1:08:10she's you know she's I don't think she
1:08:14was ready for that and again and but I
1:08:16also mentioned the article to look if
1:08:18something changes there's no statute of
1:08:20limitations on murder for minors if
1:08:23she's charged at a later point and the
1:08:26state has evidence and it reaches a
1:08:29grand jury and then eventually reaches a
1:08:30jury and they find her guilty of
1:08:32something then obviously that's our
1:08:34legal system and that's how it works but
1:08:36the notion that Nicole needs to prove
1:08:39her innocence is ludicrous
1:08:41it's not white and and you know I've
1:08:45been through a little bit of this myself
1:08:46as a writer
1:08:48there are various times when people want
1:08:50to villainize me for this book for my
1:08:52last book or whatever and why would you
1:08:55have to pretend
1:08:57hey STUV what it would be like to be
1:09:00accused of anything how why would a
1:09:04woman have to prove she's innocent she
1:09:06should be able to live among people and
1:09:08just be a normal healthy person and not
1:09:11have to go into hiding because of this
1:09:14and I think she was wise to Google Heidi
1:09:18to see what kind of life she has and how
1:09:20she's you know affected by everything
1:09:23that happened with the Petersons case
1:09:25and I don't know why we can't give her
1:09:28the same respect and the only thing I
1:09:32can figure is that we believe she knew
1:09:34that they were married and that they
1:09:36were not really separated but then again
1:09:38I think Chris lied to her about almost
1:09:40everything so I feel I feel sorry for I
1:09:46don't know what else to say about that
1:09:48I probably shouldn't but I do I feel
1:09:49sorry for um not only well I don't yeah
1:09:53I think what it comes down to I agree I
1:09:57think whether it's a male or a female I
1:09:59mean all of us in this kind
1:10:01we have a presumption of innocence at
1:10:03least ascitic returns to the wall and
1:10:06and i and i think what i I have read
1:10:09comments and I quoted a couple without
1:10:11attributing them because I'm not there
1:10:12to call anyone else specifically of I
1:10:15don't care what they get her for as long
1:10:17as she spends the rest of her life in
1:10:18jail this is insanity this is how it
1:10:21works and imagine if that's all it took
1:10:25imagine if the only thing that we needed
1:10:27to convince someone of a crime in this
1:10:29country was the the overwhelming look
1:10:32being bad I mean that would be that
1:10:35would be really terrible well and I also
1:10:38pointed out too that you know most
1:10:41people whether they want to admit it or
1:10:43not or maybe they don't know about it I
1:10:44mean most people are pretty forgiving
1:10:46and most people have had a friend maybe
1:10:49a family member someone who has been
1:10:51involved in some type of of infidelity
1:10:54of some sort in there it's not a funny
1:10:57thing it's certainly not a good thing
1:10:59but it's also things that people forgive
1:11:02each other for and and move forward from
1:11:04and even here what I see is this sort of
1:11:07like never-ending attempt to convince
1:11:12the CIA the FBI and the Frederick Police
1:11:15Department that they just you know they
1:11:17just they just need to push a little
1:11:18further a little harder and and don't
1:11:21ventually have her I guess you know with
1:11:24an aerial photo from from NASA showing
1:11:26her driving out to the survey site it's
1:11:30probably not gonna happen no no it's not
1:11:33I mean even the little clues that we do
1:11:36had indicate that she had nothing to do
1:11:39with it but then again and you can make
1:11:42a whole bunch of evidence up or you can
1:11:44see things that aren't there and again I
1:11:46appreciate those people who are leading
1:11:48in that direction as long as they're not
1:11:50doing it just because she is a mistress
1:11:52and she's not very likable really um
1:11:55from what we've heard in her interview
1:11:57she might have been scared to death and
1:11:59she's really a very charming person I
1:12:00don't know but if they had real evidence
1:12:04there's just nothing there's nothing no
1:12:07she didn't do no there is nothing on it
1:12:11and you know I mean you know touching on
1:12:14say you know
1:12:15the red car theory nor that the holiday
1:12:17when you think about the whole thing is
1:12:18absurd I mean they're gonna you know
1:12:20rather than waiting for Betty - 30
1:12:23seconds a minute to drive off so they
1:12:24wrote this that you know that
1:12:26everything's clear
1:12:27boom they go the instant that she goes
1:12:29you know I mean it's just I mean that's
1:12:31just ridiculous
1:12:32in itself isn't it and there's no
1:12:34there's no footage of this red car ever
1:12:37arriving on the gravel you would see it
1:12:39there on the gravel clearly on the
1:12:40camera on the doorbell kam million
1:12:44things that that point say well no
1:12:46that's just right it would have been
1:12:49visible on the doorbell Chamblin and
1:12:51Shannon came home the night before
1:12:53unless you know again that I don't know
1:12:57when it would have gotten there between
1:12:582:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. I don't know
1:13:01when it would have gotten there and
1:13:02Chris would have had to go out and Lu
1:13:03his truck I don't know I don't know how
1:13:05to resolve that issue I I don't know I
1:13:08don't think it happened I really don't
1:13:10know how to be as well to do that you
1:13:14know by the neighbor town definitely I'm
1:13:22sorry go ahead well in could consider -
1:13:25I mean what would be the purpose of her
1:13:26being there I mean great presumably he
1:13:29believed that he was gonna go to work
1:13:30that day that he was gonna come home and
1:13:33he was gonna start to kind of clean up
1:13:34some of the things that that Nicole
1:13:37atkinson's arrival kind of messed up for
1:13:39him ray if Nicole's in the house and her
1:13:42role is to in some way shape or form
1:13:44assist you would think again that if you
1:13:47had even the modicum of a plan in place
1:13:49that she would be responsible for
1:13:51grabbing the phone the purse the
1:13:53medications the the wedding ring all
1:13:56these things so what Nicole hides in the
1:13:58basement for a few hours and then walks
1:14:00out the back that we're not taking any
1:14:02of the really problematic pieces of
1:14:05evidence left behind and why yes sir
1:14:07Ricky showed up is walking through the
1:14:09house and he you can tell this doesn't
1:14:12look good this woman with two kids
1:14:14leaves her car in the garage with two
1:14:16car seats doesn't take her purse doesn't
1:14:18take her ring doesn't take her phone it
1:14:20immediately looks bad so there was again
1:14:22there was no evidence of any kind of a
1:14:25plan didn't there whole it
1:14:28again and I'm only talking about people
1:14:30who subscribe to the idea that she was
1:14:32in the house I mean what exactly she
1:14:36didn't write they didn't hide anything
1:14:37there's nothing there except oh well
1:14:41maybe that's you know maybe she snuck
1:14:43into the house in order to assist well
1:14:45again there's just no reason to to
1:14:49believe that that occurred in any way if
1:14:51what happened was Chris thought he was
1:14:53gonna come home that night and all of a
1:14:56sudden everything got really really a
1:14:58time crunch for him and he could not go
1:15:00home and get rid of that stuff like he
1:15:03had hoped to be able to do to make it
1:15:05look like she had left with somebody
1:15:06else right
1:15:08no I agree and I think that you're right
1:15:10she would have been positioned there
1:15:11from 5:30 that morning until what was it
1:15:1512 something when Nicole Atkinson showed
1:15:18up she would have done some stuff you
1:15:21know she would have taken the purse and
1:15:23she would have put it with the
1:15:24medications you know at least thrown
1:15:26them into the bag and I think that if
1:15:30they had planned for her to drive away
1:15:33resembling Shannon that we've been that
1:15:35would have unless she went back to sleep
1:15:37or something bizarre like that I know
1:15:39that would have been prior to Nicole
1:15:45Atkins and showing up the front door I
1:15:47would bet that if someone else if she
1:15:49was involved she would want to get that
1:15:51part of the charade over with quickly
1:15:54she wouldn't wait what six hours seven
1:15:57hours to go to do all the at least she'd
1:16:01grab the person throw the medications
1:16:02into it pack a few items of clothing
1:16:05into a duffel bag or something anything
1:16:07she would have staged some of it pro -
1:16:09Nicole Atkinson arriving at the door and
1:16:11I think also at that moment where there
1:16:15was a notification about something with
1:16:17the television I have a theory that
1:16:19maybe the TV we've been rebooting or
1:16:22reloading or whatever it is that my my
1:16:24TV does every night at like 3 a.m. I
1:16:27think that might have been what what
1:16:29that was all about but I can't be sure I
1:16:31I don't know I've actually looked at a
1:16:35lot of the Rooter logs and it's quite
1:16:37boring it's what technical stuff but a
1:16:39lot of it is just simple kind of
1:16:42devices renewing their IP addresses and
1:16:44stuff like that there's nothing exactly
1:16:46right you know there's always a pattern
1:16:48with a lot with majority of them as a
1:16:49pattern so this there's nothing really I
1:16:53know some people have said that this
1:16:54proves that they switched on the TV or
1:16:57this boot it doesn't you know it doesn't
1:16:58it doesn't work but yeah and even just
1:17:04taking NK out of it these conspiracies
1:17:06that it was gonna be an insurance job
1:17:09you know suit suing against Anadarko and
1:17:11that kind of stuff but then you look at
1:17:14it and think well why would he have
1:17:16phoned the school and told him the
1:17:17children are coming in right Morty have
1:17:20had the gas can clearly Hilda gas can on
1:17:22the camera and you know you just left
1:17:25the sheet blowing in the wind out there
1:17:27none of them yeah none of that lends to
1:17:30me any kind of insurance no I think what
1:17:41that also really kind of point points to
1:17:43me is that this was not I mean if again
1:17:47if this was a plan and I stated my
1:17:50article that while you know incredibly
1:17:53illegal he was also so much shockingly
1:17:55enough I mean and I'm gonna make light
1:17:58of anything here this is serious issue
1:18:00but I mean this was a this was an
1:18:04absolutely horrendous plan that stood no
1:18:06chance of ever fooling anyone Frank from
1:18:09officer Conrad to Special Agent coder to
1:18:12Tammy Lee I don't think there was a
1:18:13single moment that they thought he
1:18:16wasn't involved not one I think they
1:18:18knew he was he had been responsible for
1:18:21this in some way shape or form from the
1:18:23moment he came in for that first series
1:18:25of questioning if there was someone else
1:18:32involved I'm sure that they would have
1:18:34had a way between two brains they would
1:18:38have been able to figure out how not to
1:18:40do so many stupid things you know like
1:18:42did she out out there or throw in
1:18:46another seat in the trash can for
1:18:47goodness sakes you know and someone
1:18:50would have been able to smooth out some
1:18:52of those plot holes or whatever you want
1:18:54to call them I
1:18:55I don't believe there could been anyone
1:18:58more than Chris Watson balding us no no
1:19:02and I know look at discovery that even
1:19:04in sort of October detect bomb Hoover
1:19:06was still looking through everything you
1:19:09know he's still documenting stuff in the
1:19:10discovery in October right regarding old
1:19:13Nicole and and Tammy Lee she was there
1:19:17an interview saying um have you heard it
1:19:19but she said I'm gonna go for the text
1:19:21with you or someone said Tammy's gonna
1:19:22go through your text with you - Nicole
1:19:24she she was right there you know I'm
1:19:26sure someone like Tammy Lee you know
1:19:28yeah would have kind of picked up on
1:19:32something if you know anything I think
1:19:39that I think they sort of quizzed him
1:19:42well not directly but they sort of got
1:19:45around the issue when they went out to
1:19:47visit him in February in Wisconsin they
1:19:50asked him some questions and I don't
1:19:51remember off the top of my head where I
1:19:53had this impression but they asked him a
1:19:54few questions trying to figure out if
1:19:56anyone else was involved
1:19:58so I I don't I don't think she was now I
1:20:02don't know I know a lot of people will
1:20:04be mad at me for that because I know a
1:20:06lot of folks do you believe she was but
1:20:08that's fine I think maybe I think drew
1:20:12you touched in this a little bit by
1:20:15keeping her involved or there being
1:20:16someone else involved it it almost keeps
1:20:19the story relevant and interesting for
1:20:23some people I think that's probably part
1:20:24of the problem as well I think there's
1:20:31at least a group of people who have
1:20:36decided that they are going to again
1:20:40sort of exact the judicial revenge for
1:20:43judicial outcome for what they consider
1:20:47to be a moral failing I think the danger
1:20:50in that is that what we wind up with is
1:20:54is instead of looking to see where
1:20:57things actually take us it becomes more
1:21:00about finding ways to smooth the road so
1:21:04that it takes us where we want to go and
1:21:06this is difficult and I
1:21:08know that when I was writing my article
1:21:10I stopped off more than a few times
1:21:12invite you I have this all wrong am I am
1:21:15I missing something here and I still at
1:21:17times will confess to the idea that boy
1:21:20one day I could really look bad and
1:21:23really look like a fool for for having
1:21:26put this out at the same time if that
1:21:29day comes that will be a small price to
1:21:31pay if she's in fact involved in this in
1:21:33some way and and we why end up with her
1:21:35where she would belong if she wasn't
1:21:37involved and I'd be happy to take the
1:21:39hits for that but I think where it
1:21:41becomes problematic is when people are
1:21:43trying to see the end they want they
1:21:47want an outcome and so what they do is
1:21:50they just look for ways to achieve the
1:21:51outcome instead of maybe stopping and
1:21:53saying hey you know and and again Chris
1:21:56never comes close to to implicating her
1:22:00as having been involved directly or
1:22:02indirectly I'm gonna talk here about the
1:22:04interviews that we have the on record
1:22:07interviews the certainly during the
1:22:09decoder and we marathon interviews and
1:22:12then again in Wisconsin he's given
1:22:14plenty about opportunity plenty of
1:22:16opportunity to point the finger at her
1:22:18and every time he says no now why oh was
1:22:21it to protect her while he's in jail for
1:22:23the recursion for the rest of his life
1:22:25so don't benefit him I don't see I think
1:22:30at a certain point I mean if he is a
1:22:32selfish and and and arrogant and
1:22:35narcissistic is so many people believe
1:22:37he is and he was willing let's not
1:22:39forget to first the first person he
1:22:41pointed the finger at was who it was
1:22:42Shanaya
1:22:43so why wouldn't he sell Nicole out at a
1:22:47certain point if he thought it would in
1:22:49some way shape or form ingratiate him or
1:22:51lessen his culpability I think the fact
1:22:54that he never does that
1:22:55I get though he was willing to destroy a
1:22:58man out there also speaks to the fact
1:23:00that you know she she she got caught up
1:23:03in something she I'm sure wishes now
1:23:05that she had never gotten involved in
1:23:06but that's where it ended he took the
1:23:09actions to murder his family and and he
1:23:12took those those that that terrible
1:23:14decision and I think that's where it
1:23:17ends I think by continuing to promote
1:23:20this idea it's
1:23:22around the corner we're gonna find the
1:23:24screen capture of her we're gonna find
1:23:26the bloody glove Allah o GA maybe they
1:23:30will one day but it's been you know
1:23:34what's it been it was this has been
1:23:36going on 2018 we don't have and I think
1:23:41that a lot of people would answer your
1:23:43questions by saying that he was
1:23:46threatened by NK and her troop of dark
1:23:49friends or whatever that his family
1:23:52would be killed yeah I'm talking about
1:23:55his extended family as parents and his
1:23:58sister and her kids or whatever a lot of
1:24:01people do point to that that Nicole and
1:24:04Kurt you know dark and sinister buddies
1:24:08actually threatened him and said that
1:24:10you're the rest of your family will be
1:24:12next if you ever say a word about who
1:24:14really did this and that's going out
1:24:16that's going into you know Hollywood
1:24:18type of stuff I did I I don't see how
1:24:20Chris would be so afraid and you say why
1:24:24why we gonna call and a bunch of her
1:24:27buddies decide to kill any family there
1:24:32was no money in it there was nothing you
1:24:35know she nan wasn't a prominent
1:24:37politician or anything why why would you
1:24:39what motive would you possibly have for
1:24:43killing these people as an as an
1:24:45outsider
1:24:45there's no way okay this is for your
1:24:48point but your point is a good one and
1:24:50this is where we are we're it Dre arts
1:24:53and Dungeons & Dragons that's not a
1:24:55conspiracy Sublette us
1:24:57yeah that it was did it's the you know
1:25:00it's it's somehow it's the you know the
1:25:03the the the meeting of Aleister Crowley
1:25:06and his descendants and that's my point
1:25:11may think what Chris was asking is we
1:25:13see this kind of thing occur and I start
1:25:16to say you know again what is the
1:25:19simplest explanation what is what is the
1:25:22reason what is the explanation that is
1:25:23the most reasonable to grasp and
1:25:25understand and once you go into the land
1:25:27of Dungeons and Dragons and try to find
1:25:29your truths that air as it relates to
1:25:31Nicole threatening his family I think
1:25:33you've just kind of maybe gone
1:25:35well way more than a mile too far down
1:25:37the road Grace and I do believe she was
1:25:42probably into or is probably until you
1:25:45know white magic and crystals and tarot
1:25:48cards and all this stuff that a lot of
1:25:49women including myself have dabbled in
1:25:52in the past and it's just kind of a
1:25:54thing you do and it has nothing some
1:25:57new-age stuff it has nothing to do with
1:25:59anything darker or sinister or you know
1:26:03that where you need to sacrifice babies
1:26:05certainly they push that a little too
1:26:08far to and there's nothing she didn't
1:26:12you know she didn't lock the heads off a
1:26:15rat sir no there's nothing that she did
1:26:17I don't think that would indicate this
1:26:20would be part of
1:26:21yeah the dark magic realm of Nicole
1:26:23passenger no yeah yeah I think that's
1:26:26just what you're saying do I think that
1:26:29those kind of reached that point Nevin
1:26:30they wear their best kind of all that's
1:26:33kind of left to cling to really it's
1:26:36stuff like that and who knows how dark
1:26:40this stuff is like you say you know some
1:26:42people refer to that white magic and
1:26:44stuff like that and crystals is could be
1:26:46dark - Chris what was couldn't it you
1:26:48know who knows so yeah I really see
1:26:52nothing in that I think like you saying
1:26:55so much was made of that when remember -
1:26:58this is also where I I struggle with
1:27:02this type of explanation is not only
1:27:05does this go into a kind of twisted
1:27:08hyperbole involving Nicole but it also
1:27:11starts to take again some of the
1:27:14culpability and responsibility off of
1:27:16Chris I mean if he was under the spell
1:27:18of a wild hex and that's what made him
1:27:22do something like this then again it
1:27:24becomes easier to say well see now he
1:27:27was responsible but and then you put the
1:27:30button spray after it and you start to
1:27:32find reasons I'm not you but people can
1:27:35start to find reasons why you know he
1:27:38was so let astray by the you know by the
1:27:40dark arts temptress and it's a it is a
1:27:44way again of minimizing he
1:27:49is responsibility his culpability and
1:27:52his ultimate decision to take the lives
1:27:55of his entire family and I think it is a
1:27:57I think it's a disservice to to the the
1:28:01idea that that he is where he belongs
1:28:03and and that we need to allow for the
1:28:07fact that sure something could change
1:28:09and I want to say that one more time
1:28:10because I know that that someone's gonna
1:28:13write the Hecker or write me and say
1:28:15well what if they find X hey if they
1:28:17find something down the road then I want
1:28:20and it's compelling and it gets to a
1:28:22grand juries and obviously I want
1:28:24justice to be served in this case
1:28:26however we can't manufacture that just
1:28:30to to feel better about or to continue
1:28:34to keep alive the idea that there's
1:28:36something more here I think he is where
1:28:38it belongs I think he took the dishes
1:28:40you made the decision to do this in took
1:28:42these awful steps and I think that it's
1:28:45time to allow for that closure and into
1:28:47the healing and for the for the families
1:28:50to be able to move forward that's that's
1:28:51where I agree yeah and only then can
1:28:57maybe people start to focus on Chris and
1:28:59maybe try to understand what he did but
1:29:06no certainly if there was evidence or
1:29:09anything that even you know watching
1:29:11people with their theories if there are
1:29:14little elements of truth in there of
1:29:16course I agree and say that I see where
1:29:19they're heading or why they see what
1:29:21they see and if there was real evidence
1:29:23in the end of course I would agree with
1:29:25it and be sorry that I didn't see that
1:29:29she was so guilty from the beginning I
1:29:31think all of us would do that and but
1:29:34yeah I don't think there's anything out
1:29:36there
1:29:36no absolutely well I think you'll agree
1:29:39on that that's good because you know yes
1:29:44I think it's important to put you know
1:29:46to keep pushing that because I think so
1:29:49many people have become almost confused
1:29:52and just baffled by everything and a lot
1:29:54of these conspiracies maybe they've been
1:29:56drawn in and they don't quite know
1:29:58exactly the whole facts of the case a
1:30:00lot of people worry
1:30:02a lot of people won't look into it
1:30:04themselves with oh they won't look
1:30:05through the discovery and they won't
1:30:06know they'll rely on unable to turn on
1:30:09that say right I imagine it's probably a
1:30:11lot of confusion surrounding this case
1:30:13for sure yeah definitely
1:30:18well it's been great having you both on
1:30:20anyway thank you very interesting chat
1:30:25sure
1:30:26okay so I'm joyful I appreciate it Chris
1:30:29thank you very much man
1:30:31that's kind of what we could reconvene
1:30:34at some other point in the future oh
1:30:36absolutely I'm usually free so anytime I
1:30:40thank you for having me in it's been a
1:30:42lot of fun guys and I appreciate you uh
1:30:45coming out to chat with me I don't know
1:30:48if I contributed anything meaningful
1:30:50here but thank you for having me no no
1:30:53problem we'll put off see a link to your
1:30:55book and everything under the video yeah
1:30:57drew we'll put a link to your article
1:31:01and the crime paper thank Marta cool did
1:31:04you did you wants to put your email
1:31:06address as well if anyone wanted to
1:31:08direct I would rather it not wind up you
1:31:15getting diluted or deluged with ah with
1:31:18currency because I if anyone wants to
1:31:20reach out they're welcome to do so and
1:31:22and I'm willing to entertain you know
1:31:25people's points of view and I've
1:31:27listened to a lot of them and I so
1:31:29whatever works there and I just
1:31:31appreciate the opportunity to come on
1:31:32and discuss yeah we'll do that okay well
1:31:37thanks both hope you enjoy the rest of
1:31:38your day time goes so fast so yeah
1:31:43thanks again thank you thanks disconnect
1:31:51here yeah I can I can do that that's why
1:31:55not thank you thank you have a good
1:32:00night
1:32:00you too thank you oh there we go guys I
1:32:05hope you found that interesting I think
1:32:07it's important to have you know that
1:32:09balance when when looking at this case
1:32:14that kind of bad
1:32:15it's conversation and Tanis books very
1:32:19good I'll thank you Kimberly thank you
1:32:22for that
1:32:23super chat it's very kind of you and I
1:32:25think it's very important to have this
1:32:27balanced conversation because like I
1:32:28said I think there is a lot of probably
1:32:32you know confusion and all these
1:32:34conspiracies and obviously the you know
1:32:36family Frankie's asked for it all to
1:32:39stop I mean they've asked yeah he even
1:32:41said himself they've asked only
1:32:44enforcement you know numerous times they
1:32:46know it's involved and if anybody's
1:32:48going to know it's probably going to be
1:32:49the FBI isn't it not some people on you
1:32:54know on the internet the evidence that
1:32:57they hire the evidence that they've
1:32:58gathered it's pretty pretty expensive
1:33:00and there's no way that they're gonna
1:33:02let somebody just walk away so easily I
1:33:07mean of course like we were saying if
1:33:09anything does come up and then of course
1:33:12justice needs to be served but at the
1:33:15moment for anybody who has conclusively
1:33:18gone through discovery there isn't it
1:33:19just isn't you can pick something out
1:33:23and ignore a couple of other things and
1:33:24make something look like like it's guilt
1:33:28on her part but if you take everything
1:33:32into context context and you put logic
1:33:35and common sense to it then it's you
1:33:39know in my opinon my opinion of course
1:33:41but I'm probably opinion and most people
1:33:43on this channel the Chris acted alone
1:33:46and only then I think when people start
1:33:48stop talking about these somebody's
1:33:50absurd conspiracies anyway and people
1:33:53can start really trying to find
1:33:56something from this case that couldn't
1:33:58be in any way helpful to anyone else and
1:34:01look at why Chris did what he did just
1:34:05what led him to do what he did you know
1:34:08can it be prevented is other signs that
1:34:12can be seen that could obviously prevent
1:34:16this from happening again because we do
1:34:17it does happen there's been other cases
1:34:18it's just on those cases we didn't have
1:34:21all of the body cam footage we didn't
1:34:23have huge discovery to pick over
1:34:27but these things do happen now
1:34:31fortunately there are psychopaths out
1:34:33there there are sociopaths out there and
1:34:36they do do these things they they don't
1:34:38need accomplices to help them and
1:34:41American law enforcement doesn't need to
1:34:44be put down
1:34:45doesn't need to be you know I haven't
1:34:49dropped the bomb they know what they're
1:34:50doing you know have faith in your law
1:34:52enforcement you've probably gotten the
1:34:56best law enforcement in the world in
1:34:57America in the FBI so you know have
1:35:01faith in them
1:35:02I'm sure they're not corrupt I'm sure
1:35:05the DEA rocks not corrupt I'm sure he
1:35:10knows what he's doing but anyway I must
1:35:16appreciate it I hope you I hope you
1:35:18found it interesting or if you look
1:35:20under the video in the description there
1:35:22will be the link to Tania's book I'm up
1:35:25to chapter was it 31 I think it is and
1:35:31it's an excellent book I've got to say
1:35:33it's it's been it's a crime fiction so
1:35:36names have been changed locations have
1:35:38been changed but it's quite easy to see
1:35:40the correlation between this and the
1:35:43Christopher Watts case but it's also
1:35:46been from the victim's perspective which
1:35:50I found very interesting anyway it's a
1:35:53very good book I certainly recommend it
1:35:55check it out underneath the video and
1:35:57also up on under there the link to
1:35:59Drew's page and his article and his
1:36:04email if you want to address any
1:36:07questions to drew thanks again guys for
1:36:11for coming in thanks Firefly and
1:36:14Kimberly looking after you
1:36:16thank you again Kimberly for the
1:36:19donation I'll make sure that that goes
1:36:22to either be lupus or National Center
1:36:26for Exploited Children I've always said
1:36:29that if we're ever talk about this case
1:36:30on here on alive that's one of the
1:36:34nation's to go so when that comes to
1:36:37I'll make sure that that goes there
1:36:40yeah thanks everyone and I hope you
1:36:44enjoy the rest of your evening
1:36:45follow your country's guidelines
1:36:48obviously for the coronavirus here in
1:36:52the UK we're kind of clamping down now
1:36:55we're not an official lockdown but we're
1:36:57in a kind of unofficial lockdown now and
1:37:00they're saying don't don't go out to
1:37:02bars and don't go out to you know try to
1:37:06stay out public as much as you can
1:37:08really but
1:37:11yeah drew was both both excellent guests
1:37:14I thought both excellent guests so yep
1:37:21thanks again everyone stay safe stay
1:37:22virus free and I will speak to you again
1:37:26so about a technical difficulties and
1:37:28sorry about being late okay thanks again

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