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Interview with Sunny Jacobs - surviving death row — Transcript

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0:01[Music]
0:04hello I'm Rory mckernan and welcome to
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0:30more at loveand courage. org thanks so
0:33much for your support it really means a
0:35lot and it's hugely appreciated I hope
0:37you enjoyed the
0:38podcast if all we did was spend our days
0:41and nights fighting well great you know
0:44it's good cause but you know what about
0:49sex drugs and rock and roll you know
0:52what about good food the soft bed what
0:55about you
0:56know fun so we really we really do owe
1:00it to them to not just to ourselves but
1:03to the people are trying to help like to
1:06do it I'm doing it for them I'm doing it
1:07for Jesse I'm doing it for my parents
1:09I'm doing it for my Uncle Joe I mean I
1:11lost them all while I was in there I
1:14lost them all and
1:16yet um like when I do stuff like this I
1:20they're here I feel them I really do
1:22feel them and they're going yeah yeah
1:26you know because I give them a voice I
1:27give them a life I give them joy and
1:31that's that's my revenge if if you
1:35want that's my revenge to be
1:39happy my guest in this episode is the
1:41remarkable Sunny Jacobs one of the most
1:43inspirational people I've ever met Sunny
1:46spent 17 years in prison including five
1:48in solitary confinement for a crime she
1:50didn't commit I've been friends with
1:51sunny for several years now and was
1:53honored to interviewer her at the CR
1:55NASA public event in human Church Dublin
1:57on Easter Monday this was part of a
1:59series of events on the theme of Freedom
2:01organized by Kathy Scott and the team at
2:03the trailblazery the interview starts
2:05with a longer than usual introduction
2:07which lasts for about 6 minutes this
2:09will give you a lot more perspective for
2:11some of the incredible discussion that
2:12will follow brace yourself now for
2:15amazing insights from this incredible
2:18[Music]
2:19woman we have roughly an hour um which
2:23we're going to get into discussion but
2:25also really looking forward to having a
2:27a Q&A session and and hearing your
2:30thoughts and your ideas and your
2:31questions for sunny um but we thought in
2:35the interest of time and really having a
2:37deeper conversation um that I would
2:40relay Sunny's some of the key points of
2:43Sunny's story um and it it will save us
2:46some time now I'm saying that and I'm a
2:47little bit nervous because I can't
2:49possibly do justice to the scale and
2:52depth and I would say the severity of
2:54her story um but but I'll give it a go
2:57and it it starts really well it
2:59obviously starts before 1976 but in 1976
3:03which is a year before I was born um
3:06Sunny was a 27-year-old mother a
3:09self-described uh peace and love hippie
3:11I believe um a
3:14vegetarian uh married woman uh
3:169-year-old uh son Eric 10 10-month-old
3:19um daughter
3:21Christina and through a range of
3:24decisions and circumstances she found
3:26herself in the wrong place with the
3:28wrong people in the wrong time
3:30and that led her to get sentenced to
3:32death for the murder of two policemen
3:36wrongly that in turn led to 5 years in
3:39solitary confinement in the most tiny of
3:42cells a concrete cell with no windows no
3:46mirrors and no
3:47light it was the most severe of prison
3:50but it was become Sunny
3:53sanctuary in 1981 a courageous juror
3:57thanks to the actions of this courageous
3:59juror who ref refused to be bullied by
4:00the judicial system um Sunny's life
4:03Sunny's death sentence was converted to
4:06uh life in prison and she was stand free
4:08to join the mainstream prison population
4:10Sunny described herself in previous
4:12writings and talks as the happiest
4:14prisoner in the prison and it was
4:17because that prison had become the
4:19sanctuary that she had taught herself
4:21that which is what the discussion will
4:23get
4:24into
4:26um just one year later her parents had
4:30been uh the carers of her two small
4:32children and because they had the carers
4:35and because Sunny was on De row
4:37essentially um the parents couldn't take
4:40time off couldn't have holidays but
4:42because she was now in life in prison
4:44the parents felt that there was a
4:46certain degree of freedom to go on
4:47holidays and they set off on a holiday
4:50to Las Vegas and tragedy struck again
4:53when the plane crashed and both her
4:54parents were killed just a year after
4:57joining the the mainstream prison so
5:00Sunny was to become an orphan and as
5:01were her children who were then sent
5:03into the care
5:04system we'll talk more in detail about
5:07her experiences in prison shortly and
5:10then in the 15th year of her time in
5:12prison Sunny's husband Jesse who had
5:15also been sentenced to prison was
5:18executed in a botched attempt that took
5:20three attempts to kill him and apologies
5:24for going into the detail but there were
5:26Flames coming out of his hair and smoke
5:29coming out out of his ears and the
5:31reason I R that now is because in
5:33Arkansas and throughout the us right now
5:36and throughout many countries in the
5:37world the death penalty still exists and
5:41we shouldn't hide away from the reality
5:42of
5:44that Sunny's legal team and her friends
5:47refused to give up hope they believed in
5:49her and eventually and thanks to Sunny's
5:51courageous conviction and uh
5:54determination to be free in 1992 uh she
5:58finally won her freedom
6:00however she was at she was then aged 45
6:03she had entered prison at the age of 27
6:06she was now 45 the world had changed
6:08dramatically she didn't know what an ATM
6:11machine was that was my favorite
6:15thing free money yeah well I thought so
6:18for a while it's a bit like cash back it
6:21doesn't exist um Sunny had last those
6:23valuable years as a mother valuable
6:26years as a friend as a wife Val years of
6:30what might have been a career and she
6:32arrived into the world with no money and
6:34only a cardboard box the world had
6:36changed massively and she set about
6:39rebuilding her life investing in her
6:41family investing in her
6:43children
6:46um there was a car crash as well I
6:49believe sunny and and that's partially
6:51five years later five years later which
6:53is one of the reason you see Sunny
6:54arriving here in a in a wheelchair
6:56essentially today and that she didn't
6:58have health insurance and again that's
6:59another so social reality for many
7:01people in the US and around the world
7:03and so tragedy was never to leave her
7:05alone but she kept fighting investing in
7:08her kids and trying to teach a message
7:10of forgiveness something that she had
7:11learned um during those years in prison
7:14this led her to become a campaigner and
7:16an activist rather than a victim she
7:18decided to take her own story to the US
7:21and to the world and the Winds of Change
7:23and the Winds of campaigning blew her
7:25into the wild west of Ireland into
7:28gallway and to an Amnesty International
7:31Conference where a sparkly eyed man
7:34named Peter who's seated here in front
7:36of us uh was to meet her and catch her
7:38attention and the two of them got
7:40talking about their shared experiences
7:42in prison and their shared investment in
7:44yoga and meditation as tools for healing
7:48and tools for survival in life so sunny
7:52and Peter went on to get married in a
7:54private winter soltice ceremony which
7:57nobody knew about until I read about in
7:59the New York Times H and in fact they
8:02got legally married just a few years ago
8:05in New York in a wedding a high society
8:07wedding of sorts a lowbudget high
8:09society wedding that was featured in The
8:11New York Times in the kind of society
8:13pages and uh Sunny was proud to inform
8:16me that she was wearing a $10 dress and
8:19and Peter was wearing penni's finest but
8:22I can assure you if you Google sunny and
8:24Peter New York wedding New York Times
8:26They look every bit a million dollars in
8:28that in that photo so her story has been
8:31written by herself of course in in her
8:33books in her Memoir stolen time and uh
8:36it's featured in the play and the film
8:37The exonerated in which Mia fararo and
8:40Susan sendon plays sunny today sunny and
8:43Peter travel the world um campaigning
8:46against the death P penalty and helping
8:49other people in need and they've set up
8:50the sunny Sanctuary a sanctuary for uh
8:53exonorees and people who need Refuge
8:55after they leave prison which we'll talk
8:57about shortly so she's an incredible L
8:59important messenger messenger for
9:01freedom for Justice For Love and for
9:04courage in today's world and it's such a
9:07special um it's it's such a special
9:11thing to be here with you today sunny
9:13and uh you just bring life wherever you
9:15go in the same way the flowers bring
9:16life to you you it I wish we could be in
9:19churches like this every Monday and hear
9:21from people like you and uh just thanks
9:24so much for joining us and and we'll
9:25just kick into the conversation okay um
9:29so I hope I done some justice to that
9:31but it's it's it's you know I've heard
9:33your story many times sunny and I was
9:36reading it again last night and I was
9:38just struck and you know I I was just
9:42left on how is she smiling and and that
9:46would be my main question and and I know
9:48you found peace and found freedom in
9:50yourself but maybe let's start with the
9:52question for you what what is freedom
9:54because this event is is about the theme
9:56of Freedom yeah well actually I've
9:58struggled with that question myself
10:01obviously for a long time um in the
10:04beginning um Freedom was about how do I
10:09get out of this prison you know um when
10:14this first happened to me I I I didn't
10:18actually take it maybe as seriously as I
10:20should have because I I knew they just
10:24made a mistake and when I explained and
10:27they were able to listen because they
10:29were so angry because of the two
10:31policemen being killed that they weren't
10:33really listening to anything so but I I
10:36could understand that but I thought in
10:38time they would understand that I would
10:40never kill anybody and I mean I'm
10:43vegetarian you know like I don't even
10:45eat meat I'm like not going to be
10:46killing people you know and hippie and
10:49all that so um I just thought I believed
10:53in um truth justice and the American way
10:55and all that stuff that you hear on
10:57Superman and you know I believed it and
11:01uh so I went to court with that
11:04attitude and when things went the way
11:08the way they went I was totally
11:09unprepared for that and I ended up then
11:12in my own private death row because
11:14there were no other women sentenced to
11:16death at that time so um I I was in
11:19complete isolation and solitary
11:21confinement for the entire five years
11:23that I had the death sentence and so at
11:26that point in time um freedom to me was
11:28just
11:29being released from that whole situation
11:31getting out of the cell and then being
11:34released from prison and then going home
11:36to my family that's what Freedom was to
11:39me
11:41um but that there are so many kinds of
11:44freedom I now know that um that's a very
11:48sort of surface kind of
11:50Freedom um and that didn't happened for
11:53a very long time and so I started having
11:57to go deeper into myself and and the
12:00question of Freedom became more of an
12:02internal
12:04question uh until finally I realized one
12:07day and it was I should say in
12:10especially in this place that it was
12:12because of I only had two books in my
12:14cell um my cell was six steps from the
12:18solid metal door to the toilet sink
12:21thing and if I reached out my arms like
12:24this I could touch both walls there was
12:27a a uh a metal shelf on one side with a
12:30thin
12:31mattress and um that's all there was no
12:34chair or table nothing that's all that
12:36was in my cell except for two books a
12:38law book and a Bible the law book at
12:40that point in time was totally useless
12:42to me because it's another language
12:44entirely and I had no use for the law at
12:47that point anyway because they got it
12:48all wrong and the Bible was a book of
12:50wisdom and at that point in time I was
12:53questioning whether there even was God
12:55at all because how could God let this
12:58happen not just to me but to my whole
12:59family my 9-year-old son was held in
13:03juvenile detention for over 2 months
13:06until my parents were able to convince a
13:08judge to release him into their custody
13:11my 10-month-old daughter who was still
13:13nursing at the time was held for two
13:16weeks and we weren't even allowed to be
13:17in contact with the people holding her
13:19to explain that she didn't know how to
13:22use a bottle because I'd been
13:24nursing uh
13:27so the this tragedy happens to the
13:30entire family and I had never hurt
13:33anybody in my whole life maybe hurt
13:34somebody's feelings but I had never
13:35actually hurt a person I couldn't
13:38understand how that could happen but I
13:40realized at this one point I there was
13:42something I read in the Bible that told
13:46me that they don't really get to say
13:47when I die that's not really up to
13:51them and so I started thinking that what
13:54they wanted me to believe was that my
13:56situation was
13:57hopeless and and I was just there
14:00waiting for them to decide when to take
14:02my
14:04life but I decided I would rather
14:06believe in Hope and in order to do that
14:09I had to then make my peace with God
14:12because otherwise it really was hopeless
14:14if there wasn't any God then I was they
14:17were the they were the end of the line
14:19and so I had a serious discussion with
14:22god well who was God to you at that time
14:24did you have a religious or spiritual no
14:27well I brought I've been brought up in
14:28the judeo Christian you know religion
14:30and ethic um but we weren't very
14:34religious so you know we we did the
14:37holidays uh but um I wasn't sure you
14:40know God was this energy all around
14:43somehow it wasn't a man or a woman go it
14:46was in me and in you and all around so I
14:50just thought of God as an energy but but
14:52when I could talk to we had
14:54discussions and so um is God was like I
14:59like I wished I could be like if I
15:01didn't have a body I could just leave so
15:04um once I settled that question for
15:07myself then I realized that until they
15:10did either realize that they made a
15:12mistake and release me or for some
15:15strange reason of my karma uh take my
15:18life something I didn't do um the best
15:21thing I could do was to become the best
15:23person that I could be so that um when
15:27they released me I would still have
15:29something left inside me to give to my
15:30children and if it was going to go the
15:33other way then it was still the best
15:35thing I could do to become the best
15:36person I could be so that when I went up
15:38there I could answer for myself it must
15:41have took you some time to arrive at
15:42that though because you had 5 years in
15:43solitary and I'm wonder that that
15:46happened in a few months because I got
15:49sick of myself because like all I did in
15:53the first weeks was to Pace back and
15:55forth the six steps angry confused
15:59frightened I mean I was all alone in
16:01this building there was not another
16:04person no other prisoner in the building
16:05where I was held uh there was just a
16:08guard up in the office in the front and
16:10me and no other prisoner was allowed to
16:12communicate with me in any way so I was
16:13truly
16:15isolated and um after I didn't get any
16:19phone calls or visits or even letters in
16:21the beginning and so I I was sort of got
16:26sick of myself like you know who wants
16:28to live the the rest of your life with
16:29somebody who's angry and and scared and
16:33confused you know it just was like I
16:35just got sick of it and so then when I
16:38read this in the Bible I was like yes
16:41this is the way so I had my discussion
16:44you know how could you do this I mean
16:45you know and then
16:47um we decided that the best thing I
16:50could do was to to turn myself into a
16:53sanctuary I mean I didn't have to look
16:56at it from their point of view their
16:58point of view I was locked up in this
17:00dungeon waiting for my life to be taken
17:02from me but actually and looking at it
17:05from a different way it was a wonderful
17:08opportunity for me to do my spiritual
17:11work because I was excused from work I
17:14didn't have anybody to take care of I
17:16didn't have to cook or clean or or or do
17:20do anything
17:24except for the first time in my life I
17:26had servants
17:27even
17:30wow didn't they cook for me they came
17:33and got my dishes and washed them for me
17:35they did my laundry I had free
17:38electricity so it all depends you know
17:41and I realized there was a big trick
17:43that they had played on me that I didn't
17:45have to see it their way at all there
17:46was another way to see it and until such
17:48time as they as I said realize they made
17:51a mistake or killed me my life still
17:54belonged to me and I didn't have to
17:56leave it in misery and so I decided that
17:58that it was a good
17:59opportunity and um because before that I
18:03was always busy either taking care of
18:04the kids or my husband and the house and
18:08and working so I decided I would do yoga
18:11meditation and
18:13prayer and that
18:16um I would never be bored I was never
18:20count the bricks in the
18:21walls um I did mathematical problems in
18:25my head I thought of recipes that I
18:27would cook for my children when I got
18:29home and it actually
18:32transformed my life I think I actually
18:35learned more about Freedom during that
18:37time than I ever knew before because I
18:40found a different kind of freedom I
18:42couldn't leave this cell okay so you are
18:45in a way a prisoner of your
18:47circumstances to an extent always you
18:50know and um and five years after I got
18:53out the same thing it's the same story
18:57uh as I flew through the a the car hit
18:59me and I was flying through the air like
19:01this isn't supposed to happen to me I
19:03already had my test didn't I and then
19:07afterwards the injury caused me over
19:09time to be less and less able to walk
19:13and that's another type of Freedom taken
19:15away from me the freedom to move around
19:18freely and yet again it made me go deep
19:21inside again and appreciate the freedom
19:23that I really do have and where Freedom
19:26really does begin and end
19:29is a big part of that the freedom to
19:31decide how you like the decision in that
19:34moment that there's something I'm
19:36getting not around being a victim and
19:39you chose not to be a victim of of those
19:42some of those experiences even that car
19:44crash yeah like at what point does a
19:46person have
19:48enough I guess that's pretty individual
19:50but um the there's always you always
19:53have a choice no matter how um limited
19:57there's always a choice even when they
19:59just brought the food on the tray and
20:00you couldn't even recognize what it was
20:03usually um you could choose whether or
20:05not to eat it so there's there's always
20:08a choice and there's a certain freedom
20:10in that once you re recognize that
20:13there's always this very core this
20:15essence of Freedom that you can uh draw
20:18on to get through anything I'm I'm
20:20guessing you experienced the opposite
20:22where other prisoners didn't see things
20:24the same way as you did and perhaps went
20:27into themselves
20:29yeah well there weren't any other
20:32prisoners after after and actually
20:36sometimes every once in a while this
20:38part of the prison it was a separate
20:39unit that was used for um like if there
20:43was a riot or something in the prison or
20:45if if someone had become violent towards
20:47themselves or other people they would
20:48put them in this building where I was
20:52and occasionally I they would they would
20:54put someone else in there um but the
20:57only people that I met in those
20:59circumstances were um going through some
21:02sort of an emotional upheaval or maybe
21:05we mentally ill there's a lot of
21:06mentally ill people in prison and um so
21:11they might be self Haring or um like one
21:16woman um kept swallowing things so that
21:20they would have to take her out of the
21:22cell in order to get a break from being
21:24in the cell whereas for me I just
21:27meditated you know and then I I could
21:30leave every night at 11:00 at certain
21:33times of the day and and and
21:35specifically at 11:00 each night they
21:37have what they call count time in the
21:40prison all prisons have count time and
21:43um at 11: they would have count time and
21:47everybody had to be apparently I I knew
21:49this later but they would come around
21:52and count and um when I went into the
21:56population after I was released from the
21:58death sentence um that would be the
22:00quietest time you know because you all
22:03had to be quiet and sit on your bed and
22:05so that's when I would meditate and I
22:07would send myself my spirit out and i'
22:10we'd swi Jesse and I would swirl around
22:12somewhere in the atmosphere together and
22:15then I'd go and i' I'd swirl around my
22:17children and and in that way I could be
22:21with them and
22:24um so that was another kind of Freedom
22:28did did you have any contact with Jesse
22:30and with your children or anybody at
22:31that
22:32point no no not when I was first in the
22:36death sentence no it took a number of
22:39months um before I was allowed well was
22:43weeks before I even got a um a letter
22:46and finally I was allowed to get letters
22:48from my parents and at least I knew the
22:50children were okay and they were with my
22:53parents so I knew that was fine um and
22:56then I started getting letters from
22:58Jesse and he would try to you know cheer
23:00me up and tell me everything was going
23:02to be okay and that kind of thing and
23:05and that helped a lot too and he helped
23:07me with my um meditation you know he had
23:12been doing meditation as well so um I
23:15remember one time he sent me a circle
23:17that he had drawn for me and he told me
23:19just stare into the circle and I found
23:22it very difficult at first you know and
23:25even though there were no distractions
23:26because there was absolutely nobody else
23:28in the building I I was my own
23:31distraction you know so it took me a
23:33while to learn how to kind of um get
23:37beyond all those feelings and and find a
23:40a place of Peace in myself and that was
23:44key and that lasted me all through the
23:46rest of the years even to this day see I
23:49thought even in prison after having done
23:52all this and found out about the inner
23:54peaceful place and the inner Freedom
23:57that you can find I still was under the
24:00misconception that freedom would would
24:03happen when I was free when they
24:05released me then I'd be free and that's
24:09what I kept looking for and working
24:11towards all those years and then finally
24:15I was
24:18free and I didn't know what to do I had
24:23no idea what to do next I wasn't Freedom
24:27was overwhelming like okay now what do I
24:31do with it and so um it was an interest
24:35a really interesting moment because now
24:38they they released me finally I was
24:40released from prison and I just stood
24:43there with the cardboard box that you
24:44mentioned that had in all my possessions
24:47in the world I went in when I was 27 I
24:50came out I was 45 I owned six pairs of
24:53underwear six pairs of
24:55socks uh two bras two white shirt shirts
24:58and two pairs of jeans and two pairs of
25:01shoes and a Walkman
25:04radio that's all I owned in the whole
25:06world and um I had no money I had no
25:11identification I had no place to go my
25:13parents were gone I didn't have a home
25:15to go back
25:16to and my children by then had grown up
25:19with the Foster families and were um my
25:22son was out on his own and actually by
25:24then had a three and a half-year-old
25:26daughter of his own was living in in a
25:28different state and my daughter after
25:32her father was executed she was about 15
25:35when he was executed and when she heard
25:38how terrible it was she tried to take
25:41her own
25:43life and so the Foster family that had
25:46uh custody of her decided to send her to
25:49a school for children with emotional and
25:51behavioral problems because they didn't
25:54know what to do and so she was locked up
25:57in a scho School uh for where I wasn't
26:00allowed even to communicate with her by
26:02letters anymore I wasn't even allowed to
26:04write to her and she was locked up until
26:06she was 18 years
26:08old so um when I got out she was stuck
26:12in that school I wasn't even allowed to
26:14communicate with her and so I stood
26:17there with my little cardboard
26:19box and finally I
26:22decided since nobody yelled at me and
26:25nobody shot at me that maybe it was okay
26:27to take a a few steps around I put the
26:30cardboard box down and saw a Stairway
26:34and I decided to go down the stairway
26:37and I found I was in the street
26:41and it was just me and the Sun and the
26:44Moon it was that time of day when the
26:45sun and the moon were out together and I
26:48just started to
26:50run and I ran and I ran and it was the
26:54it was the most beautiful moment I think
26:56of my entire life
26:59I just ran and it was just me and the
27:01Sun and the Moon and the
27:03wind until all of a sudden a car stopped
27:07in the middle of the road man jumped out
27:08and said are you sonny Jacobs Sonia
27:11Jacobs he said and I said yeah like how
27:14did he
27:16know Santa Claus and and he said well
27:21there's some people looking for you back
27:23there and he pointed in in the direction
27:26actually that I was running I was like
27:28oh okay and I ran and what happened is I
27:32ran I had run around the block I had no
27:35idea I was just and I ran around like
27:38where he showed me and there was the
27:40stairway again so I went up and there
27:42was my one of my lawyers and a friend
27:45who had helped me in the end who joined
27:48forces with the lawyers and um I tried
27:53to go back in the building but my body
27:55would not allow me to pass the threshold
27:57I couldn't go back in and um so I called
28:01in the door when someone came out and
28:03they ran out to me and and
28:07then the next chapter of my life
28:09actually began but during that moment I
28:12think that's the most free that I've
28:14ever ever
28:16been before or since because then all of
28:20a sudden the
28:22the the responsibilities of
28:25Freedom entered into the picture you
28:29know like Freedom isn't free you know it
28:33comes with
28:34responsibility and okay now I'm free so
28:37where am I going to
28:39eat like who's going to feed me so where
28:42did you end up living at that point then
28:45well I didn't know I had no idea I had
28:49no plan I just needed to be free I
28:52didn't understand that that meant I
28:55wasn't going to have a place to sleep
28:56that night you know this at this point
28:59cuz the state weren't necessarily
29:00looking after you they just dumped you
29:02out into the street with not a penny and
29:04is this where lawyers and friends came
29:06in how did you kind of get to the next
29:08point because Sor yeah yeah no um the
29:11lawyers she she well she P we went in
29:14her car and they handed me a telephone
29:17in the car which was very strange
29:21because when I went into the prison they
29:23didn't have telephones and cars and they
29:26had long curly wires got all wound up
29:30and so um they handed me a phone and
29:33said I could call my
29:34son oh okay and so um I called him and
29:39let him know that I was free because
29:41this happened kind of unexpectedly at a
29:45hearing and uh I then
29:49um they took me to my lawyer's house and
29:52she told me I could pick anything I
29:54wanted out of her closet to where of
29:56course she was like 6 feet tall so so I
29:58picked a pair of
30:01shorts and a t-shirt with a flamingo on
30:04[Laughter]
30:07it and um they had asked me what I
30:11wanted to
30:12eat God I had dreamed about so in the
30:15beginning I dreamed about all these
30:17amazing things very complex dishes but
30:20in the end it was like a potato maybe
30:23you know or I I remember I had a list
30:26everybody has a list list when they get
30:28out of prison of the things they want to
30:30do and my list was uh number one was a
30:34bubble
30:35bath cuz there are no bathtubs in prison
30:38and then number two was a Thomas's
30:40English muffin with real
30:42butter and number three was a
30:51man and it took me actually 3 years
30:54before I even went on a date and that
30:56was on a bicycle because I didn't trust
30:58anybody so I wasn't going to get stuck
31:00in somebody's car but um uh so I got the
31:04bubble bath at the uh lawyer's house and
31:08um then they ordered Chinese food I
31:10decided that's what I wanted Chinese
31:12food and
31:14Chopsticks and um then um the the uh
31:18following morning they took me to a big
31:20hotel and we had a sleepover with
31:23friends that PE some of the women that
31:26I'd known from the prison and Jesse's
31:28mom was there and she brought me a pair
31:29of pajamas she's the only one who like
31:32understood to any extent you know that I
31:36I I I wouldn't be prepared for
31:38anything and um then the next morning
31:42they took me to the restaurant in the
31:44hotel and they gave me this Menu Pages
31:47and pag was like a novel you know and I
31:49couldn't possibly I mean it would be
31:52tomorrow breakfast time before I could
31:54possibly read all those things and make
31:56the choice and
31:58so I
32:01saw um this
32:04omelet and all kind of things in it on
32:07the menu and I said would it be could I
32:10change my mind could I change my mind
32:12and not have the Thomas's English muffin
32:14and butter now and they were like yes
32:16you can have whatever you want but you
32:19know in prison you don't have lot of
32:21choices so I wasn't sure I was allowed
32:23to change my mind and if I did change my
32:27mind if I could still get the Thomas's
32:29English muffin and butter the next day
32:32because again in prison if you got the
32:33opportunity to have something you had to
32:36take it right away because that
32:37opportunity was not coming back so they
32:40said yes yes you can have whatever you
32:41want so I had the omelet just that
32:44having a little faith that maybe I could
32:46have my Thomas's English muffins still
32:49and um then I wanted to go to the Sea it
32:53was really important for me to go to the
32:55Sea because I felt that the ocean was
32:58the only thing powerful enough to wash
33:01away the the prison the just the whole
33:04feeling of it and just neutralize the
33:06energy and and and I could like be born
33:10again like a sky almost and so um right
33:14after breakfast I they took me to the
33:16sea and I just ran I ran and ran and ran
33:20along the shore and then I ran into the
33:24water and just let the sea wash it all
33:28away it was it was really beautiful and
33:30it's important I think s symbolism is
33:33really important to us it's part of our
33:36nature you know it's like when you see
33:38those pictures of the soldiers fighting
33:41you know for some unknown reason on some
33:45little island or something and then they
33:47they they get the flag and they post the
33:49flag up on the top of the hill and
33:51they're renewed and it gives you know
33:53the impetus to go on that's a symbol
33:56it's if they're really really important
33:58and so um symbolically that washing away
34:02the the energy of the prison in the sea
34:05was really important for me and uh from
34:08there I just went on to create my new
34:10life can you talk about how you
34:12re-entered the workforce cuz there's an
34:14interesting story there about how your
34:16practice in prison led to employment
34:19well yeah nobody was going to hire me I
34:21mean okay well okay I was wrongly
34:25imprisoned at the age of 27
34:28for something I didn't do and 17 years
34:31later I finally was released when I'm 45
34:34so how does a 45-year-old woman get a
34:36job you know nobody's really hiring 45y
34:40old women and then I tell them well my
34:44work experience well you
34:47see but I was innocent oh yes well we
34:51don't call us we'll call you you know
34:54right so um the only thing I really knew
34:58how to do was yoga because all during
35:03the time that I was sentenced to death
35:04in the death cell all during the time
35:07that I was in prison I did yoga and
35:10meditation and that helped me and in
35:13fact when I was released from the death
35:15cell into the population the other
35:18prisoners used to ask me well how did
35:20you manage to you know keep your health
35:23and your sanity I'm not sure I kept my
35:24sanity but um you know
35:28because I was locked in this little cell
35:29for for years and I only got under of my
35:33cell twice a week by the way not one one
35:37year one hour a day I only got out of my
35:39cell twice a week for a brief shower and
35:42then about 15 minutes outside in a
35:44courtyard with a guard who didn't speak
35:46to me and then I was put back in my cell
35:48for another three or 4 days so
35:52um uh the other prisoners knew this and
35:55they were amazed that I came out
35:58pretty healthy and so they would ask me
36:01and I'd say well meet me on Saturday and
36:03I'll show you and so we started doing
36:05yoga and then end up to be kind of a
36:07yoga class and then after
36:10about
36:12another 10
36:14years the prison noticed that we had a
36:18yoga
36:19class and and so they brought in a um a
36:24woman from the local Community College
36:26to teach yoga
36:28and up until then I really wasn't quite
36:30sure that I was doing it right but I
36:32knew it worked for me and when I got out
36:34of the um a death cell and I was in the
36:37population I could go to the library and
36:39and get yoga books so I got a yoga book
36:42and I I just did what it said in the
36:45yoga book and seemed to work and see I
36:47was doing it very internally I wasn't
36:49looking in the mirror saying that looks
36:52right you know I was I I was feeling it
36:55inside and going
36:59that feels right you know so you could
37:02feel it was more what I felt inside me
37:05happening rather than what I could see
37:06outside me and so um when this teacher
37:10came in we we found out we we were doing
37:13it right and in fact she was so
37:15impressed with what we were doing that
37:18she brought in the
37:19Swami Swami Nanda how a Swami ended up
37:24in um Broward County Florida I'm not
37:27quite sure but there she was and um so
37:32she came in once a month she brought in
37:34a vegetarian feast and loads of
37:38prisoners came because if you want
37:40prisoners to attend anything you just
37:41bring food you know it's sort of like
37:44being in college you know just offer
37:46food you get a whole crowd so um we we
37:50had a h uh every every month she'd come
37:53in she'd bring the vegetarian feast and
37:55we do yoga and meditation and she'd
37:57teach us um various things and she would
38:01use me as her demonstrator model so um
38:04that was her way of fine-tuning my own
38:07practice so when I got out that's what I
38:10knew how to do and it's what kept me
38:12healthy through all the most difficult
38:14times of my life and getting my freedom
38:16was one of the most difficult times in
38:19my life as well so um I decided that I
38:23would teach yoga and that would help me
38:25to get through this the difficulties and
38:27also it would be a way for me to share
38:30what the way this that I knew that could
38:33help other people with their
38:34difficulties because when I first got
38:35out I didn't realize that I didn't think
38:37I had anything in common with anyone
38:39else you know my my experience had been
38:42so different than everybody else my age
38:46and but then after being out for a while
38:49I realized that you know everybody has
38:52their own prison of sorts you know and
38:56their own challenges and they could use
38:59the same tools as I did to get through
39:01their challenges so uh it became a way
39:04of uh sharing and a way of connecting
39:07because the thing that's missing uh for
39:10for anyone I think that's been locked
39:11away for whatever reason guilty or not
39:13is the connection back into the
39:16community and um there are people here
39:19in Ireland as a matter of fact who have
39:20had this happen to them who have been
39:22wrongly convicted not as many as in
39:24America but you know there aren't as
39:26many people in this country as there in
39:27New York city so you know it's such a
39:30vast place but but uh comparatively we
39:34have our population of people who are
39:36wrongly convicted as well and they find
39:38it very difficult to re-enter Society
39:42because they have this
39:44stigma uh you know people say well you
39:48know I don't know you know maybe I mean
39:51they did say she did it and you know
39:53maybe it was a technicality or maybe
39:55isn't that the woman is isn't that the
39:57woman who's accused and this is often
39:59the case of killing her child cuz most
40:03of the women that I know that were
40:04wrongly convicted were wrongly convicted
40:06of killing their own child and so people
40:09point they actually point at them and
40:11say isn't that the woman isn't that the
40:13mother of the woman that was accused of
40:15you know and and it's very hard for them
40:18to get past this stigma so um it didn't
40:22happen for me I kind of did it for
40:24myself but I now know that it's
40:26important for people to welcome uh
40:29someone like who has that problem in
40:31back into their society I think even if
40:33they were guilty if they paid their
40:35price to society give them a chance to
40:37have a good life to be part of society
40:40maybe the whole reason why they went
40:42wrong in the first place is because they
40:43were on the fringes of society so I
40:46think that it's up to church groups and
40:48Community groups to invite these people
40:51back in and you know give them a chance
40:54to belong and because it's not just a
40:57again the person it's the whole family
40:59my family had to
41:01move after this happened to me because
41:04they it was so they were so devastated
41:06and so embarrassed and my son when they
41:09finally did get him released into my
41:11parents custody they I found out way oh
41:14years years later that he had to fight
41:16every day in school because the kids who
41:18can be kind of mean you know they would
41:20say oh you're mom's a murderer and she's
41:22going to die in electric chair you know
41:25so he would fight
41:28and he was a very gentle person and so
41:30this was terrible for him so they
41:32actually had to move so um when tragedy
41:35happens and especially in Injustice it
41:37happens to the whole family and um I
41:40think as a society we we should be aware
41:42of
41:43that at what point did you decide to
41:46become a campaigner or an activist
41:48because you could have chosen to get on
41:50with your life you didn't owe the world
41:53anything necessarily yeah um I think
41:58now that there's a this uh phenomenon
42:02called the Innocence projects and um
42:05they've been working to free people who
42:08were wrongly convicted like myself like
42:10Peter and um as a result it's really
42:14raised awareness about the problem and I
42:18find now that many if not most of the
42:22people who were wrongly convicted when
42:24they get out want to do something to
42:26help
42:27because they know others who are in
42:29prison who are also wrongly convicted
42:31and they know how it feels and they know
42:34how it affects the families and so um a
42:37lot of them do try to become activists
42:40but um
42:43activism comes with a price you know
42:46activism is a great thing to do but then
42:50um you have to be able to at some point
42:55separate yourself from your activism
42:57and say you know what for all the people
43:01that I'm trying to help and I had to
43:02learn this myself for all the people
43:05that I'm trying to help that I've left
43:07behind that I think need my help um I I
43:11owe it to them to enjoy my life because
43:14if all you do is fight fight fight then
43:18what about enjoy enjoy enjoy you know
43:22and it's hard to enjoy when you know
43:24other people are suffering but it's
43:26exactly for that reason that you need to
43:28enjoy because they wish they had five
43:32minutes of your life they if they could
43:36just have a little bit of what you have
43:39they'd be so happy and so for you to
43:41waste it is a
43:43sin you know to waste the opportunity in
43:4624 hours of a day you can fight let's
43:49say you fight for 18 hours of that day
43:52take one hour one hour to just purely
43:55enjoy what you have the Privileges you
43:58have the freedom you have the
44:01opportunities that you have and and
44:04that's not just for you that's for them
44:06because they see they see that they see
44:09those people that I left behind in the
44:11prison the people that now are just
44:13being released who were wrongly
44:14convicted they see that look at sunny
44:17and Peter why they have a beautiful life
44:20it is
44:21possible we we have that to Aspire to to
44:25to hope for you know so at the very
44:27least what we do is we give people hope
44:30that maybe they can have that too if all
44:32we did was spend our days and nights
44:34fighting well great you know it's good
44:38cause but you know what
44:41about sex drugs and rock and roll you
44:45know what about good food in a soft bed
44:47what about you
44:49know fun so we really we really do owe
44:53it to them to not just to ourselves but
44:56to the people are trying trying to help
44:58like to do it I'm doing it for them I'm
45:00doing it for Jesse I'm doing it for my
45:02parents I'm doing it for my Uncle Joe I
45:04mean I lost them all while I was in
45:06there I lost them all and
45:09yet um like when I do stuff like this I
45:13they're here I feel them I really do
45:15feel them and they're going y y you know
45:19because I give them a voice I give them
45:21a life I give them joy and that's that's
45:26my revenge if if you want that's my
45:30revenge to be
45:40happy um I just want to do a time check
45:43who's on the time we can hang out are we
45:45okay
45:47for I just we're going to open up a
45:49questions I just wanted you to tell
45:51people a little bit about your current
45:52life and your current work and and maybe
45:54a little bit about the goats and the
45:56various and then you can ask
45:59questions so so yeah if you tell us
46:01about life in Kara and particularly then
46:04the sunny Sanctuary C Center well I
46:06should tell you that um when I first
46:09came over here and this is relevant
46:10because of tonight when I first came
46:12over here it was a bank holiday weekend
46:15and so um Amnesty International brought
46:18me over and so I got to take the the bus
46:22the bus tour of of Dublin but I heard
46:25about Kil manum jail and it's not on the
46:27bus tour and so I got off the bus and I
46:29went to go see Kil manum
46:32jail and
46:34um I I realized then that CU I hadn't
46:38been in a prison again since I got out
46:42and um I realized that the cell looked
46:46just the same size as the cell that I
46:49had been in on death
46:51row but I couldn't again it was one of
46:54those times when I couldn't make myself
46:56go in
46:57so my friend Trish she had her two
46:59children with us on the little tour so I
47:02said hey kids you want to go in there
47:04you know and they went in so when they
47:06went in I I was able to go like broke
47:08the spell you know but it was exactly
47:11the same size um as my cell all cells
47:15like that I think are pretty much the
47:16same so when um I met Peter uh I didn't
47:21know anything about it was Steve Earl
47:23the go girl the original go away girl uh
47:27go girl no no but I know who she
47:30[Applause]
47:31is she's in uh she in um she's in his uh
47:36video okay so there's a hint but anyway
47:40and she has long black hair blue eyes
47:43just like the song anyway Steve um is an
47:46activist and he told me that when I went
47:48to Ireland I should meet Peter Pringle
47:50because he knew that Peter had also been
47:52a person who was wrongly convicted and
47:54sentenced to death for killing of two
47:55policemen that he didn't do do which was
47:57pretty
47:58coincidental and so yeah and so um when
48:03I came over I I I got in touch with him
48:06and he came to my talk and like he is
48:10now and um then finally told me about
48:14you know his circumstances I found out
48:16he did yoga and meditation as well which
48:19was pretty interesting because you don't
48:20me meet many guys who tell you they did
48:23yoga and meditation while sentenced to
48:25death for something do it's not un
48:28Tinder I want yeah yeah yeah so um
48:32that's what started this whole thing and
48:34that wasn't exactly what I mean that
48:36gave us a connection but that wasn't
48:38what um really connected us it was the
48:41yoga and meditation connected us on one
48:44another level very closely but it was
48:47that he said to me after that first
48:50meeting uh he said um I I try to lead an
48:54honorable life and that clicked for me
48:58because by then I had no time for
49:01nonsense you know you just don't not
49:04when you've been through all that you
49:05just don't have time for all that
49:08stupidity so that's what attracted me
49:12and then um we became friends and more
49:15than friends as Peter always says
49:19and and um and then we realized that we
49:23had become part of each other's
49:25healing and
49:27we had we were in a special position
49:30like we've been given a
49:32gift in all of this there was a gift and
49:35the gift was to be able to help other
49:37people who are in a similar situation to
49:41find healing or at least find hope that
49:44they could be happiness afterwards and
49:46so um it sort of happened
49:49organically a young uh Irish lawyer
49:52named uh Neeve NE gun she had been
49:56working with one of the Innocence
49:58projects in America and had helped free
50:01this man uh in Detroit and he was having
50:05a lot of trouble after becoming free CU
50:07like us he found out that freedom isn't
50:10you know just who be now I'm free and so
50:14um she asked if she could send him to us
50:16and he he spent a month living with us
50:19in our little cottage in
50:21Kara and um he was it helped him a lot
50:25he went back and he was doing much
50:27better so that's how it began and um we
50:30were too old to have children of our own
50:32so we have
50:36kids they all call me
50:38me how many animals do you have in total
50:40now I'm even
50:44grandm so so you you live in the the
50:47wild west of Kara and and you run what
50:50is the sunny Center which has now
50:52received many people over the last
50:54couple of years hasn't it y yep and we
50:56now have a foundation based in New York
51:00uh and um a board and all this kind of
51:03stuff and it's really uh we we find U
51:07overwhelmed our lives but at least for
51:10the next five years we're going to
51:12continue to do it the way we do and
51:14we're hoping that we can train others to
51:16do what we do other exies that have come
51:20through our program and then maybe they
51:23can uh continue the work and we can kind
51:25of be Consultants just get our nice
51:28quiet life
51:29back in our old age but um it's it's a
51:33beautiful thing to be able to do and to
51:35see people come they can't even look up
51:38they keep their head down like when they
51:40come and
51:42then after a while you can see their
51:46face and they start to smile and they
51:49start to participate and it's a
51:51beautiful thing and we use our neighbors
51:53to help us too um when we find out what
51:56the person's their interests are like
51:59art or music or bicycle riding or
52:02whatever it might be and we introduce
52:04them to Local people who have the same
52:06interest hey go on go on spend the day
52:08you know this is our friend John go on
52:10now and yeah and they they don't know
52:14necessarily we don't tell them their
52:15background or anything it's our friend
52:17John from
52:18America and he becomes Sean and off you
52:21go and and and it's a beautiful thing
52:24and they learn that they can re they can
52:27connect with people on another level
52:29that they're not just their past because
52:32in America mainly they're um they're
52:35used they have no way to get a job like
52:38me they have no way to make money or get
52:40a job they live in such poverty the only
52:42way they can really get a break is by
52:44talking about their experience and being
52:46used by the activist movement against
52:48the death penalty um for that purpose
52:51but they are being used and it's really
52:54after a while not very healthy because
52:56it's keeping them in that box and being
53:00a victim and so what we do is we bring
53:04them here and set them free and now if
53:06you want to go back into that box every
53:08once in a while you can but that's not
53:10who you
53:11are thanks
53:13Sun um I think we'll give her a round of
53:15applause
53:25for
53:28I'm I'm going to have to be a little bit
53:29cruel because I know there's many people
53:30who want to ask questions but I I
53:34intentionally allowed the the wisdom to
53:36flow this direction uh but if there's
53:39anybody that really really really wants
53:41to ask a
53:42question I'll do Tracy you're up and
53:45I'll give another hand you and you I'll
53:48try I can't promise but it's s Tracy go
53:50for what time is it we have 10 minutes
53:54voes there are bosses in the background
53:56hovering here my voice is kind of gone
53:58so I hope you I'll I'll repeat the
54:00question once hear so at one point you
54:03said that you um you had no trust in
54:07anybody after you came out of prison so
54:09what was it that led you to come to
54:11trust people again how did you regain
54:14trust in people because at one point you
54:16said you no longer trust in people I
54:19still have trust
54:21issues but in this world I think they're
54:24Justified but um
54:27um it it was a gradual
54:30process and um what I do is I go back
54:34down into myself sometimes I my
54:36immediate reaction is visceral you
54:39know and
54:41then I do breath you can do it in one
54:44breath if you practice enough and I get
54:47rid of that and I go okay what does my
54:50heart say what does my tummy
54:52say and if it feels okay I go with it
54:56and if it doesn't if it if if it's
54:59something that I wouldn't normally you
55:01know like it doesn't fit me I I don't do
55:03it and if it does I do and I'm willing
55:06to take a chance because I found that
55:09and this is really
55:10important being hard you break okay hard
55:15things break but if you can be soft then
55:19you can flow like the water and like the
55:21wind and they're much more powerful than
55:24anything hard and rigid so so I found
55:27that I am more powerful as a soft
55:30flowing being than I am as a hard rigid
55:32being so I know that okay I can handle
55:36it you know if I'm wrong and I get hurt
55:39I can recover I know that I can do that
55:41so this gives me strength and so I'm I'm
55:44more able to trust now than I used to
55:47but it's still an issue a little
55:50bit yourself the back yep yep um I just
55:56wondering do you think that there is
55:59such a thing as collective Freedom or
56:02can Freedom only be a personal Journey
56:05so do you believe in Collective Freedom
56:07or do you think it's only a personal
56:08Journey oh no it's both oh almost
56:11definitely freedom is so complex I mean
56:15Freedom starts and ends with that little
56:17kernel inside of yourself you only you
56:20can set yourself free in the end or
56:23imprison yourself in the end regardless
56:25of what else is going on around but then
56:27there's physical freedom and mental
56:29freedom and emotional freedom and all of
56:31us are connected in that way so there is
56:33I think we can share our freedom I can
56:37I'm doing it now we're sharing Freedom
56:39right now you know the freedom to be
56:41here the freedom to listen the freedom
56:43to to take this in the freedom to
56:45connect with each other uh the freedom
56:47to change the freedom to share so um I
56:50do think that um there is a collective
56:54Freedom uh yeah but we have to recognize
56:57it I'm going to go with you and then and
56:59we're going to have to wrap it then
57:00sorry to the others so um when you
57:03mentioned about being in solitary and
57:06you said that within a few months you
57:08made that decision to become the best
57:10that you could be within the the
57:12limitations of your situation but in one
57:15way you've kind of presented it as if it
57:16was oh I made that decision and then you
57:19could kind of cope with things but I'm
57:21imagining that the intensity of the fear
57:24and the L all L and everything was it
57:28like a a twoing and fling was it I'm
57:31assuming it was very challenging to be
57:33able to to be like that there must have
57:35been so much
57:37trauma there was and there is there
57:40still is um the
57:43decision is
57:45instant but the process continues even
57:49to this day you know so like when I hear
57:53that my son is having trouble finding a
57:55job
57:56and I know it's because because of his
57:59treatment in the um Juvenile Detention
58:02Center um he was so traumatized that he
58:06developed a speech impediment and when
58:08he gets nervous he
58:10stutters and I know that when he goes
58:12for a job that affects his possibilities
58:16and that makes me angry again and I have
58:18to practice forgiveness again
58:22because that doesn't help me or anyone
58:25for me me to take on that anger again
58:28and so it's a process that continues to
58:31this day but but the decision is an
58:33instant and it changes your life
58:37forgiveness forgiveness forgiveness is
58:39one of the key tools to
58:45happiness thanks
58:46[Music]
58:48Sunny thanks for that
58:50question thank you
58:54I Yay
58:59yay
59:03yay thank you for listening to the love
59:05and courage podcast I hope you enjoyed
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59:41in my day-to-day work my sincere thanks
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1:00:35[Music]
1:00:43us

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