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Interview with Nikolas Schreck on Richard Ramirez-The Night Stalker — Transcript

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0:00hi and welcome to Danny after dark if
0:03you're new here make sure to like And
0:04subscribe so you don't miss a
0:06notification or a new episode tonight we
0:09have a very very special guest we have
0:12Nicholas Shrek you might know him as the
0:15author of the Manson file however did
0:18you know he had a relationship with the
0:20one the only Richard Ramirez yes that
0:24Richard Ramirez The Night Stalker so we
0:26have Nicholas here to Enlighten us a
0:28little bit on who Richard Ramirez really
0:30was behind the scenes so let's go ahead
0:34and welcome on Nicholas Shrek
0:36hello there hi how are you tonight good
0:40and yourself
0:42I am relatively well all things
0:44considering the state of the world I am
0:46doing
0:47pretty good considering so
0:50awesome well thank you for being here
0:52and I'm very excited for this
0:55um because I didn't prior to us talking
0:57you know through the Manson case I did
0:59not know that you had a relationship
1:00with Richard Ramirez so I'm really
1:03looking forward to asking you some
1:04questions about that as well as about
1:07your background mm-hmm yeah it's my
1:10pleasure to be here and uh fire away you
1:12can start your interrogation now
1:15I won't hurt I promise
1:18so that's too bad I was hoping you would
1:21oh I'll message you later
1:23um how did you
1:27all right well behind me here is the
1:31first letter he sent me
1:33and um as some of your viewers may know
1:36that is a goetic seal
1:38from the Seal of Solomon which has 72
1:42goetic demons in it which is commonly
1:45used for black magical ritual and he I
1:49wrote to him
1:51because I was working on a book in 1988
1:54called the Demonic Revolution and this
1:58was at the height of the satanic panic
2:00and I was working on a book that
2:02basically interviewed everybody in the
2:05occult and satanic world that was still
2:09active at that time so that is how I
2:12came to meet Anton LaVey
2:15um
2:15I you know I won't name everyone because
2:19I don't want it to to get too digressing
2:22into the whole occult world but
2:23basically I interviewed everybody in the
2:26occult world that existed at that time
2:30um and I wanted to have a chapter it was
2:33during the satanic Panic which maybe
2:35your younger viewers may not know fully
2:38it was a time when Christian
2:40televangelism especially was pushing the
2:43idea during the Reagan Administration
2:46that was very dominated by Christian
2:49Evangelical
2:51born-again thinking that there was a
2:54satanic conspiracy throughout America
2:56that babies were being killed that there
2:59was a you know a
3:01um it was it was in very many ways the
3:03embryo of Q Anon a lot of the same
3:06insane and unfounded ideas that yeah
3:09that fuel Q Anon and we thought we had
3:12defeated it but it's back and and it's
3:15worse than ever so I think it's very
3:16very timely that we talk about this
3:19tonight so in that context of the
3:22satanic Panic uh
3:25my band radio werewolf was very
3:28controversial and very much you know I
3:31was very much a target of the beginning
3:34of the satanic Panic thing and
3:37Satanist traditional Satanist if you can
3:40call them that we're very concerned with
3:43painting themselves in a good light and
3:45and disassociating themselves from these
3:48rumors of sacrifice and ritual murder
3:51and all of that which was not happening
3:54however
3:55there I did want to have a chapter in my
3:58book about satanic crime Through the
4:00Ages because of course satanists have
4:03killed people satanists have
4:05you know it's it's ridiculous to
4:07whitewash it uh there have been Satanist
4:10through history who have certainly lived
4:13up to their reputation and one of them
4:16was Richard who
4:19um you know who who had absolutely no
4:21remorse about his crimes who identified
4:24as a Satan missed proudly so I wanted to
4:26get his perspective on it which annoyed
4:29the kind of nice politically correct
4:32Satanist that would prefer that we not
4:35mention that but I've never
4:37wanted to uh to whitewash things so I
4:41contacted him
4:42and as a kind of Prelude to all that
4:45in 1984 when I was living in Los Angeles
4:49and I started the band radio werewolf
4:52which pushed itself very deliberately as
4:55the most evil band in history and
4:58deliberately played up all of the
5:00satanic Panic fears of backward masking
5:03and being controlled by a secret society
5:06and using the concerts as rituals which
5:10were true it was true that we were but
5:13we did it in an ironic way almost
5:16parodying the fears of the satanic panic
5:20and and wanting to be the essence of
5:24everything that people feared about
5:26occult rock music
5:28so when we started in 1984
5:31Richard was starting his own little art
5:34project as The Night Stalker so
5:37in the the the mood in Los Angeles when
5:41radio werewolf started was Terror and
5:45fear because the so-called Valley
5:48Intruder which is what he was first
5:50known as and then later The Night
5:52Stalker you can't imagine how much
5:56you know genuine fear there was because
5:58people had no idea there didn't seem to
6:00be any pattern of who it would strike or
6:04why or when or if it was a group of
6:06people and then
6:09um there started to be in the newspapers
6:11the reporting that since satanic
6:13graffiti and occult symbols were left at
6:17the crime scene and this is where it
6:20became personal because of my prominence
6:23in Los Angeles as an outspoken Satanist
6:26there were people including friends of
6:29mine who wondered if I was the valley
6:32Intruder or The Night Stalker what and
6:36yes and uh and that wasn't the first
6:39time I'll mention something else that
6:41was of previous serial killer thing so
6:44people jokingly but not completely
6:48jokingly wondered and asked me and
6:52um and later when I told Richard that he
6:55thought it was hilarious uh he got a
6:57laugh out of that but um so it was
7:00personal to me I followed the case for
7:03one thing because the Satanism angle of
7:05course
7:06impinged on my own life during the
7:09satanic Panic thing that was the last
7:11thing I needed was to be uh associated
7:15with the idea that satanists are going
7:17around killing people and that's what
7:19the police and and the Reagan reaganized
7:23born-again Christian right were saying
7:26so I was very aware of it and um to make
7:30a long story short I'm working on this
7:33book The demonic Revolution and then I I
7:35thought there needs to be a chapter
7:37about real satanic crime to to balance
7:40and and put it in perspective so
7:44he I wrote to him and he wrote back very
7:47quickly and this letter behind me is
7:49from February of 1988 that's when he
7:53wrote to me and I had just moved
7:55to San Francisco
7:57and again there was a personal
7:59connection my girlfriend and I were
8:01living in a beautiful
8:04um old vintage apartment house but it
8:06was in the tenderloin which is a
8:09notoriously violent and was then very
8:11very you know filled with Street
8:14prostitution drug dealers but it was a
8:16beautiful
8:17building and so we loved this building
8:19so we moved to the tenderloin well
8:22unbeknownst to me that is where
8:24Richard's probably his first victim
8:27which I never knew about in the time we
8:30knew him this nine-year-old girl who he
8:32raped and killed and left hanging in a
8:35basement very nearby to where I was
8:38living
8:39wow in the tenderloin so that was
8:42another strange connection and I didn't
8:44know that during the E to he and even
8:47though he was quite open about his
8:49crimes he never told us about that and
8:51it wasn't known until years later as you
8:54may know it was I don't know how
8:56familiar you are with his crimes but
8:58that wasn't a crime he was charged with
9:00yeah so the tenderloin you know it was a
9:05very violent uh area filled with Street
9:08people that were mentally ill
9:10prostitutes drug dealers so certainly
9:13colorful you could use the euphemism
9:16for that and um so that's where this
9:19letter behind me first came he answered
9:22it and he was quite enthusiastic to meet
9:24me and um we started speaking on the
9:28phone
9:29and the first thing we talked about was
9:31this symbol which is the galactic seal
9:36for the demon Belial
9:39um among the 72 demons and we started
9:42talk and I had used this as a black
9:46magician and devil worshiper I had used
9:48the goetic system very often and only a
9:53few years earlier I had done a ritual
9:56using the goetic system in in
9:59Philadelphia
10:01a group Satanic ritual that was very
10:05dramatic and I won't get into all the
10:07details because it would digress from
10:09Ramirez but I feel at that time that I
10:12was actually possessed by what we called
10:15up it was an extremely dramatic ritual
10:18and everyone involved with that ritual
10:21is dead except for me and one other
10:24person and they it it definitely was
10:28you know it brought something from
10:30another world into the place where we
10:33did this ritual and I stopped working
10:35with the goetic demons after that after
10:38seeing I had done a lot of work with
10:41them so our first conversation and most
10:44of our conversations
10:46were not about his crimes though we did
10:49get into them later and I'll explain why
10:51our first conversations were about the
10:53goetic system about demons he too felt
10:58that he had been possessed
11:00and he described the feeling of it
11:03and he had done I mean he was not he
11:06didn't have a tutor he didn't have any
11:08Mentor or guide in these things he's
11:11just sort of did do it yourself
11:13rituals because he was attracted to you
11:16know black magic and the devil so that
11:19was and that's what brought I I'm not
11:22particularly interested in True Crime
11:24I'm not particularly interested in
11:26murderers per se I mean I've known maybe
11:30because I've known criminals all my life
11:32I don't find anything romantic about
11:35them or
11:36fascinating I mean it's it I've I've
11:40known all kinds of crooks and criminals
11:42and murderers and
11:44uh it's not it's not something you know
11:47but I would say the only reason I was
11:49interested in him was not because of his
11:51crimes but because of his open blatant
11:54admission of guilt of his it's very rare
11:58that you know he said I want to be evil
12:01and that I'm I did these things to be
12:03evil and and what he told me was that he
12:07he believed he would be rewarded in Hell
12:09by Satan for for his bad Deeds
12:14and this is something I've seen with a
12:16lot of people that are are actually the
12:18most authentic
12:20real Satanism I've encountered was in
12:23Italy Mexico Spain
12:26countries that are very Catholic have a
12:29kind of Satanism where they invert it
12:31they invert Catholicism and and their
12:35form of Satanism is like a upside down
12:38Catholicism so he believed if he did
12:41Evil Deeds
12:43then Satan would would reward him in the
12:46afterlife which is not in case anyone
12:49think that's true I can also tell you
12:51that's not true and I'll get into that
12:53very specifically about hell
12:56and Richard Ramirez and and that you
12:59don't get a reward for doing what he did
13:01yeah just in case anyone thinks it's a
13:04good idea out there
13:06um yeah we don't want others to think
13:08that's a good idea
13:10yes exactly so yeah so we talked about
13:14you know Conjuring of demons and the
13:17devil and and he
13:19he was a bit older than me but he looked
13:22at me in a way like a mentor or a guide
13:25because he didn't
13:26previously he really didn't know anyone
13:28who was knowledgeable about these things
13:33so yeah so our first discussions were
13:36about that and it took a while I I then
13:38moved
13:39after I moved from San Francisco and
13:42after I married Xena levay you then
13:45became Cena Shrek and remained so
13:49um
13:51we like his trial was starting and so
13:54that was when I finally was able to
13:56visit him
13:57and we visited him
13:59and I actually brought with me the the
14:02notes that we took that day that I'll
14:04read a little bit of the first page yes
14:07so these are these are the actual notes
14:09from 1988.
14:13February now or 1989 February of 1989
14:16and this is what we brought into
14:19the LA County Jail where he was and we
14:22went in to speak to him and um there
14:26were many Richard Ramirez's in county
14:29jail in Los Angeles Manny Ricardo
14:31Ramirez so it took a while to find the
14:34right one and then the guard took us to
14:37the to the you know looked like a like a
14:40Auto Repair Garage very bare desolate
14:44room where he was brought out and uh we
14:48spoke to him you know with glass and
14:51with with the telephone a little bit
14:53like this and um
14:55and he came out and he was extremely
14:59he was in a very good mood that day I
15:02mean I think he he was glad to see us of
15:04course he knew who we were yeah and he
15:06respected us and he he looked up to us
15:08so I think we saw a very different side
15:11of him than other people who visited him
15:14because
15:16he's I mean in a weird way to say he saw
15:19us as equal he he even looked up to us a
15:22little bit as and for the most part he
15:25didn't respect anybody
15:27yeah um
15:29yeah so we had attended the trial for
15:31quite a while before we actually were
15:33able to visit him we had gone we went to
15:35most of his trial
15:38um
15:39and I was going to clarify so your
15:40conversations with him were before the
15:42trial no they were they were during
15:45during
15:47they were the early part
15:49of the trial
15:51um so we had gone I don't remember how
15:53long but for many many sessions of the
15:55trial and he the first time we went into
15:59the courtroom he waved to us and
16:01everybody of course noticed that
16:03and there were you know the news media
16:06was there the the local Los Angeles news
16:09networks and they recognized us because
16:11we were on television
16:14about the satanic Panic all the time so
16:17so um they very some of the news people
16:20politely came up to us and and there was
16:23a news episode unfortunately I have it
16:25on video I haven't transferred it to
16:27digital
16:28where they didn't really do it in any
16:31Sensational way but they said well look
16:33who's here at the Richard Ramirez trial
16:36which implied there must be some
16:39connection which of course there wasn't
16:41but there have always been rumors you
16:44know did we know him before you know was
16:46he following our orders or nonsense like
16:50this that you always get with such
16:51things but
16:53so
16:54um I one of the first things he said
16:57when we went to the trial the first day
16:59I was wearing a long black leather coat
17:02and I remember one of the earliest
17:04things he said when we sat down and
17:06talked to him he said oh man Nicholas
17:08when you came in I thought you're going
17:10to take out a gun and shoot everybody
17:12and that I mean that's how he thought
17:14and that at first is what he thought we
17:17were like he did think
17:19he clearly thought we were getting away
17:21with what he didn't
17:23um for instance Cena at that time taught
17:27she still teaches students but now she's
17:30a Buddhist yogini but then she taught
17:33black magic to private students and he
17:36said oh to Xena during our first meeting
17:39oh I wish I'd known that because maybe I
17:41wouldn't be in jail now he thought he
17:43thought you know we were teaching people
17:46how to get away with murder which we
17:49assured him we assured him we weren't
17:52but I don't think he ever believed us I
17:54think he said yeah sure you're you're
17:56saying that because you're here in jail
17:57of course you're not gonna
17:59admit that I think he eventually
18:01understood that we were not but who
18:03knows so just uh just to make it totally
18:08uh
18:09Cinema verite here is exactly like the
18:12first things he said he greeted us these
18:15are notes I took during and right after
18:18and again we you know we didn't just get
18:20right into the crimes at all or anything
18:23like that the the for he very he was
18:25very Charming
18:27in a good mood cheerful I I would say he
18:31was kind of boyishly enthusiastic Even
18:34in our first meeting
18:36and he told us he was reading these
18:39books the Black Arts by Richard
18:41Cavendish which is a popular book about
18:45black magic
18:46Satan Wants You by Art lions
18:49which was a book that had come out a
18:51year before about contemporary Satanism
18:55in general
18:56I made a note that in public he was very
19:00somber and unsmiling and in private he
19:04smiled and was affable and friendly so
19:07it was very clear
19:08the way you've seen all the the footage
19:11of him in court he's pee definitely he
19:14very shrewdly and cannily had an idea of
19:17his self-image and he played this
19:20character
19:21of the Night Stalker when he when the
19:24news cameras were on and in the trial
19:27and um and he wanted to intimidate
19:30people he wanted to frighten people he
19:33wanted to provoke people deliberately
19:36you know and but when but privately he
19:39was nothing like that you know so the
19:41image you have of what you've seen in
19:44the court appearances it's not like he
19:46was somber and Sullen and
19:49you know playing up this Sinister image
19:52that he played
19:53um he we talked about the the hearing
19:56and what he thought of it and he said he
19:58wanted the death penalty he wanted to be
20:01killed he did not want to live
20:04um he made it very clear that
20:08what he thought would happen is that
20:10eventually the cop he couldn't believe
20:13that it took so long for him to be
20:15arrested actually
20:17uh and what he hoped he told us in
20:20detail what hit what his idea of what
20:22would happen is that the police would
20:24find him he would get into a shootout
20:26with the police and they would kill him
20:29in a shootout and and that would be it
20:31and and I think the interesting thing
20:33about that I think
20:36no like a few other serial killers I
20:39think that his crimes were a kind of
20:41suicidal action I mean I think he was
20:44very lonely
20:46I think he I think he had a very
20:49miserable life and I I think even though
20:52he was in his mid-20s when he started
20:56The Killing Spree I think he wanted to
20:58be killed
21:00I think he had a very strong Death Wish
21:02and he was really pissed off that he was
21:05caught and I don't know if your viewers
21:07know the way he was caught
21:09is uh he was in Arizona briefly he went
21:13to Arizona and when he came back someone
21:16had identified him by his name and they
21:20put a picture of him and when he got
21:22back to LA his pictures all over the
21:24newspapers and it was on the Spanish the
21:28main Spanish-speaking Los Angeles
21:30newspaper and he was in his Mexican
21:33neighborhood and the local Mexicans on
21:36the street recognized him saw him chased
21:39him and nearly beat him to death if the
21:43if somebody hadn't called the police he
21:45probably would have not gone to prison
21:47because they I mean they really hated
21:50him and they hated him because he was
21:52Mexican and and shaming the whole
21:55Mexican community and and you know in
21:59Los Angeles there's a lot of hatred of
22:01whites to Mexican and it was even more
22:03blatant then so that would only
22:05perpetuate
22:06the uh their reputation so they really
22:09hated him and also they're very
22:11extremely Catholic and extremely
22:13conservative so they they nearly beat
22:16him to death
22:17and he barely survived that the police
22:19did he tell you about like talk to you
22:21about eating yes he he did and I'll get
22:24into why he did
22:25so then he he said uh they want to save
22:29me laughingly speaking of his attorneys
22:32but he didn't want his defense to save
22:34him he wanted the death penalty
22:37and that led pretty quickly that as far
22:40as the death penalty which we were all
22:42sure he would get we had no doubt he
22:44would because he was guilty as hell
22:46literally
22:48um and there was so much evidence and
22:50and he didn't deny it so
22:52he wanted you know in America you're you
22:56are allowed to choose the religious uh
23:00chaplain or representative to go with
23:02you to your death you can you can be
23:05accompanied by someone and he wanted
23:07Xena who was then The High Priestess of
23:11the Church of Satan when we were
23:12visiting him to be the person who spoke
23:16to him before he died and brought him to
23:19what would have been the gas chamber in
23:21San Quentin where where he most likely
23:24and was uh sentenced to
23:28so she agreed to do that and that was
23:30the plan
23:32he said I don't plan on being on this
23:35Earth for too long I'd give myself four
23:37years
23:39I don't know what he meant by that but
23:42you know interesting he definitely did
23:44not want to live and he made it clear he
23:45hated being in jail he never wanted to
23:48be he had been before for auto theft and
23:51other minor crimes but he absolutely
23:54hated it
23:56um he said what kind of Life am I going
23:58to have here
23:59only the only choices are life
24:01imprisonment without parole and the
24:03death penalty and I would rather have
24:06the death penalty
24:07he said they don't want me on the
24:10streets again
24:11laughingly
24:13um
24:14he wrote about getting letters from
24:16Christians trying to get him to repent
24:19and to to accept Jesus as a savior and
24:22he he rolled his eyes disdainfully
24:26um I don't know if you remember the Sean
24:28sellers case that was very popular at
24:31the time it was it's this the um say you
24:34love Satan case it was it was a it was
24:38another teenage
24:40um murder thing that the media turned
24:43into a satanic crime thing which it
24:46really wasn't but and and it was very
24:48popular at that time and and
24:51um Richard said of that that's stupid
24:53and then another thing about him he was
24:57very aware of his celebrity for someone
25:00you know
25:02he moved to LA when he was 15 years old
25:05and basically from 15 to when he was
25:07arrested he lived like a feral animal I
25:11mean he didn't even really have a human
25:14existence he lit he lived in cars or you
25:18know the cheapest boarding rooms he
25:20owned almost nothing he hardly had any
25:23real friends he knew a few people in the
25:25Underworld who he would uh you know buy
25:29cocaine and heroin and speed and
25:31whatever from and he knew other Crooks
25:34and criminals and he and he was an auto
25:37thief and you know he did ordinary
25:39crimes and broke into people's houses
25:41just to steal stuff to buy drugs but his
25:45you know he got up at night and went out
25:48and prowling and stealing he had no
25:50friends he was never socialized you know
25:53he had no so
25:56so jail in a way was his first kind of
26:00socialization I mean he I really thought
26:02of any any when I first saw him he came
26:06he was like visiting a wild animal in
26:09jail interesting and not only that I do
26:13believe he was actually possessed for a
26:15while by the demons that he worked with
26:17I do believe I think it stopped but I
26:21think when he was first arrested he was
26:23and if you see
26:25um when he's
26:26being asked by the cops when victims are
26:29identifying him
26:31and for instance there's a footage of
26:33him where the where one of them where
26:36the cops are saying asking him to repeat
26:37what he'd said which is show me the
26:40money or where's the money
26:42he's clearly to me to someone who has
26:45experience with esoteric forces he is
26:49still in the grip of some demonic Force
26:52and and I can relate to him on that
26:56level and we did have a rapport I mean
26:59we did get along
27:01not that I condoned what he did in any
27:03way but there was some kind of fraternal
27:06Rapport between us which is why he
27:09trusted me and why he opened up yeah
27:13um so as far as him being very shrewd
27:16about his self-image he said look at Ted
27:18Bundy five books in a TV movie where did
27:21that get him you know like he was
27:23thinking well what should trying to
27:25figure out how do you make a career out
27:27of being The Night Stalker
27:30um
27:32uh there was a rumor or actually levay
27:36Tina's father had told us that he
27:40recalled one day that Richard was
27:43outside the black house which was
27:45levay's house in San Francisco and that
27:48that he had a conversation with him and
27:51he said he was very respectful and
27:53polite to him now Anton LaVey never
27:57opened his mouth without lying so
27:59whether that was true or not I don't
28:02know but we asked Richard that in that
28:04first meeting and he said honestly I
28:07don't remember I was so up then I
28:10could have and he made it very clear
28:12that through that whole 84 to 85 period
28:16before he was arrested he was high every
28:19single day he couldn't remember half of
28:22what he did
28:24um you know he was totally high all the
28:27time and and a lot of the crimes even
28:29were committed when he was completely
28:32you know Stoned on on everything mixture
28:35of everything
28:38um
28:38so he didn't remember if that happened
28:40or not
28:42wow um he he knew he had he had seen uh
28:46by that time already some clips of my
28:49interview with Charlie
28:50had been on current affair and other
28:54Sensational trash TV talk shows at the
28:57time so he had seen them and he admired
29:00Manson actually probably for the wrong
29:03reasons I don't you know I don't think
29:04he understood the reality of the crimes
29:07but he he looked up to him and admired
29:09him and wanted me to give his regards to
29:12Charlie
29:13and um he said and I don't I don't know
29:16what he was referring to but he said I
29:18understand some people of my race had
29:20burned him I think you mean burned him
29:23in the criminal sense like ripped him
29:25off or
29:26something but he should know not all of
29:28us feel that way about him
29:31so he wanted me to give that message to
29:33Charles which I did because I was in
29:36very steady contact
29:38with Charlie at that time what was
29:40Charlie's response he he did give a damn
29:43about it he didn't he he'd listened he
29:46was polite but and he said yeah say
29:49hello too but but he did not you know I
29:52don't want to get into that but he did
29:53not respect serial killers or
29:56it wasn't a racial thing because he
29:59actually Charlie liked Mexicans actually
30:01he very much was pro-mexico and and and
30:03preferred the company of Mexicans
30:06um but he really looked down like most
30:09real criminals and people in the
30:11Underworld have contempt for serial
30:14killers because serial killers have no
30:17control over themselves they're not
30:19disciplined they're not professionals
30:21they're they're just lunatics who who
30:24can't okay hold their together so
30:26in the prison hierarchy serial killers
30:29just one step above child molester and
30:32people didn't know people didn't know at
30:34that point publicly that Richard was a
30:37child molester and that he had raped
30:39children and killed children and
30:41interestingly though he told us all
30:43about his crimes
30:45later
30:46he never admitted that to us we didn't
30:49know that when we knew him so he there
30:51was a barrier I think he realized that
30:54we would not go beyond okay I think it's
30:58interesting that he edited himself to a
31:00degree and didn't tell you about that
31:04um
31:05let's see uh he when we asked him like
31:09what was his satanic background or how
31:11he got into it he had me he he didn't
31:14put on errors he wasn't pretentious he
31:16said I you know I just was always drawn
31:19to the devil I always thought that I
31:21serve the devil I was brought to this
31:23earth to serve him and um and he he
31:27asked us about obviously there was some
31:29group he had some dealings with because
31:31he said I knew some people in San Pedro
31:34are you familiar with those areas some
31:37people that were into Satanism and he
31:39said he kind of watched their rituals
31:41from afar but didn't really get involved
31:44and I got the impression he was
31:47I I guess you could say very introverted
31:50and shy in his dealings with people
31:53again like a wild animal I mean he went
31:55out at night and stole stuff and got
31:57drugs and killed people but he didn't
31:59have any real dealings with human beings
32:02uh except prostitutes I mean like the
32:05only feminine company in his life were
32:08the cheapest Street Horrors that like he
32:11would buy with some cocaine or something
32:13that was as much human warmth
32:16yeah and he described all that when we
32:19got to know him quite openly he talked
32:21about his sexual fetishes in great
32:24detail and he had no shame at all he had
32:28no no filter
32:31you know then that's very rare yeah that
32:34is rare
32:36um
32:36we we right before well not right before
32:39but in Halloween of that the year before
32:41we had been on the Geraldo
32:44Rivera Satan's underground this this
32:48special that really pushed the satanic
32:50Panic thing into high gear and he
32:52watched everything we did on TV and he
32:55would later he'd call us and say oh that
32:57was really good I like that part even
32:59ordered the transcript in those days you
33:02could write to the TV show in order a
33:04transcript and he would say oh Nicholas
33:07I liked it when you said this or that
33:09too like I remember
33:11I said I forget I said some sarcastic
33:14thing to one of the hosts that it made
33:16him laugh so he was like a fan in a way
33:19which was interesting
33:22um and so about he said I thought you
33:24guys stood really good on the Geraldo
33:26show the only thing I didn't agree with
33:28with what that Aquino was saying which
33:31was Michael
33:32Aquino of the Temple of set
33:35probably because he was I mean Aquino
33:38was the goody goody Satanist who was
33:40always stressing the ethical nature of
33:42it and all that so of course Richard
33:44would not find that appealing so that
33:48that's the first page of many notes I I
33:50can't but I just thought to give you a
33:53direct idea
33:55of what we talked about and then
33:59um
33:59then very quickly after that he and I'd
34:03forget who really thought of it first
34:05together
34:06we he wanted us to write his
34:09autobiography or to write a book with
34:11him about his life from his point of
34:14view not a typical True Crime book
34:18strangely a little bit like when Manson
34:21was disappointed with um Manson in his
34:25own words and he said why can't you
34:27write that but this would have been like
34:29we would Xena him and me we work
34:32together on telling what his whole life
34:35story was from his point of view not the
34:38typical True Crime thing that you know
34:40that would begin with Los Angeles was in
34:43a state of fear and yeah what was his
34:46experience of what he was going through
34:48which is very rarely done you never hear
34:51the the criminal's point of view you
34:53hear it's from the point of view of
34:55society
34:56and and he was so we agreed to do that
34:59and then our meetings became more
35:01frequent our telephone calls became much
35:04more frequent and he you know he talked
35:06about all parts of his life he talked
35:09about
35:10uh he talked quite candidly about that
35:12he could have brain damage that why well
35:15one thing I should say
35:17he he uh in his total lack of remorse
35:21for the murders he said after he got to
35:24know us he I remember a phone call
35:27he said um you know I really like you
35:30guys and you're my friends but if it's
35:32night time and if we were together and I
35:34was out I might kill you
35:36and he said I can't
35:39he there was a little bit of shame that
35:42he couldn't control himself it was like
35:43I wish I I could control that but it's
35:47like he felt he had to tell us that
35:50and and it was really a compulsion he
35:52could he and also he talked about this
35:55very openly that it was a sexual fetish
35:58he that he he was sexually excited
36:01by murdering people and that he even
36:03ejaculated when he killed people yeah
36:08he told us that quite openly so it was
36:11you know he was motivated by stealing
36:14money for drugs but he got a sexual
36:17thrill out of it and he admitted it
36:19you know so
36:21so he talked about he he didn't remember
36:24the details of which victim was which
36:26and you know uh he was completely
36:29lacking in any empathy for his victims
36:32he had no pity whatsoever and I want to
36:35emphasize that for that there are many
36:37people now decades later
36:40who romanticize him and idealize him and
36:43even idiots who say he was innocent he
36:47was framed uh you know or or you know
36:51there's these
36:52girls who were in love with him
36:56um as there also are for Ted Bundy
36:58repulsively which is unbelievable to me
37:01but there are
37:03um who who oh he he had such a bad
37:06childhood and if only he'd known me I
37:09you know he that they'd so I just want
37:11to say yeah you know he was my friend
37:14I got along with him on a human level
37:16but he was a despicable person who had
37:20absolutely no empathy for anyone and
37:23would have even killed us
37:25I mean he was a killing machine he there
37:29was something deeply wrong with him I
37:31mean he was not a raving psychotic by
37:35any means and that was what was
37:37interesting he was articulate he was
37:39intelligent though uneducated he was
37:41bright you know he had a sense of humor
37:44he didn't act like a drooling
37:47lunatic
37:49um but he could not control his urge to
37:51kill and he enjoyed it and he was
37:54totally sadistic about it I mean he
37:56wanted to cause pain and he reveled in
37:59that yeah where you were his friend on
38:02the outside and people knew that because
38:04you were at his trial did you ever have
38:07any conversations with any like you said
38:10any of these women that do romanticize
38:12him whether that was back then or even
38:14still to this day oh yes I mean
38:16immediately I mean at the trial there
38:19were there were always groupies uh at
38:22the trial immediately
38:25um and that gave it a circus like
38:27strange
38:28atmosphere and our presence there too
38:31unnerved people as the word spread that
38:34we were there so there were and they
38:36talked to us too they would like
38:38politely come up to us and
38:41Express their admiration or whatever
38:43like the news people did
38:45and and we did talk to them and one
38:48uh there's a musician named Ava o who
38:51came from the same Gothic Rock and death
38:54Rock milieu that radio werewolf came
38:57from
38:58um and she actually had a romantic
39:02affiliation with Richard that was much
39:04deeper than than these other women who
39:07who were groupies for him I mean she she
39:10got to know him very well and she and I
39:12knew her
39:13and and yeah we talked about that
39:17um but to this day
39:19and really it's never stopped although
39:21it's since the Netflix documentary
39:25it's I mean in all of the late 80s 90s
39:29and 2000s I always got contacted by
39:33almost entirely these women who
39:36who are in love with him and and want
39:39you know to know any little detail about
39:41him and and all of that and I still do
39:44you know this this week several at least
39:47you know it happens all the time there's
39:50many of them out there and I try to
39:52dissuade them
39:53from romanticizing him and idealizing
39:56him and and thinking that there's any
39:58redeeming quality about him because
40:01there's none I mean in his brief life he
40:04did nothing but wreak
40:06horror and tragedy and and pain that's
40:09it yeah you know it's interesting
40:12because it says so much about the women
40:16more so than Richard
40:18from a psychology point of view I I
40:20would I would say
40:21but well I mean as a woman how do you
40:24feel about that I mean this is a person
40:26who enjoyed raping women and insulting
40:28them while he was raping them and have
40:30you know making them say how much they
40:33enjoy being raped and
40:35and he you know whatever he used women I
40:38mean like a lot of convicts and I've
40:40known he wasn't that different than many
40:42other prisoners when you're in prison
40:44you're bored out of your mind and if
40:46you've got a bunch of women talking to
40:48you that's a lot more entertaining than
40:50sitting in your cell jerking off which
40:52is what most prisoners have to do yeah
40:55so
40:56so fascinating you know he but he didn't
40:59respect these women you know it was
41:01clear to me and to Xena you know he he
41:04used them and he used them for not
41:06pornographic purposes too he'd say send
41:09me you know send me your send me
41:11your feet especially he had a he had a
41:15foot fetish and he would always ask
41:16Every Woman send me pictures of your
41:18feet send me and they did I was about to
41:21say I'm sure they did they absolutely
41:23did and then the other prisoners who
41:25already hated him because he was on the
41:27lower rung of the prison hierarchy as a
41:30serial killer who killed killing women
41:32is really not admired in the criminal
41:35underworld that's looked at as cowardly
41:39um and so they hated him anyway
41:42and he was kept away from the pr from
41:45the jail and prison population because
41:48of his notoriety but you know the other
41:50prisoners envied him and hated him
41:52because he had all these women writing
41:54to him and sending him you know porno
41:57pornographic pictures and and love
42:00letters and
42:01that kind of thing so yeah it's very
42:04disturbing it is still disturbing to me
42:07and and they've they've created a
42:09fantasy Richard Ramirez that did not
42:11exist a one who would you know to them
42:14would be a sweet loving little pussycat
42:16and not a vicious Psychopathic murderer
42:20when she was yeah there's a um a topic
42:24called hybristophilia where and we
42:26covered it once a few months back on the
42:29Paul castamates it's not a discussion
42:30panel just about this very subject about
42:33because it does cross where there are
42:36some men that are infatuated with women
42:39prisoners but statistically speaking it
42:41is women that are infatuated with male
42:42prisoners and studies that have been
42:45done about that
42:46in the psychology behind the type of
42:48woman
42:50um that would be attracted to a male
42:52inmate and why what type of background
42:54they'd come from to lead up to that it's
42:56a whole fascinating subject but
42:59to answer your question what would you
43:01what would you what would you say is the
43:03main type because I've certainly got to
43:05observe it close up I have my own
43:07theories what what do you think what
43:10what is the psychological mechanism that
43:13makes people do that
43:15but niche in my personal opinion based
43:18I would say it's
43:21it's wanting the famous
43:23Fame and be you're you get a little bit
43:25of notoriety through what could be your
43:27partner also women purposely seeking men
43:31who are unattainable they know that it's
43:34somebody from a distance that's what I
43:36think yeah yeah and statistically
43:39speaking a lot of these women come from
43:41very
43:42um broken homes damaged backgrounds it's
43:47rare that a woman comes from from just a
43:50I hate to say quote unquote normal
43:52household because there's really nothing
43:53or even loving or supportive or yeah but
43:58sometimes that does happen and that's
43:59that's a whole fascinating look at
44:02itself but I would say it's a mix of
44:04I would say low self-esteem in wanting
44:07somebody that you can be famous with and
44:11be under their Limelight in somebody
44:13that you know is unattainable because
44:15think about it Richard Ramirez he wasn't
44:18in jail his whole life when he was out
44:20and about where were these women then
44:23well he he was very aware of that he
44:26said he had no luck with women I mean he
44:28he had to go to prostitutes too I mean
44:31he would he would have no idea to have
44:33courtship or socialize I mean he did
44:36have some yeah I guess you know in Texas
44:39in El Paso when he was growing up he did
44:42have some kind of girlfriends but they
44:45were not successful or loving
44:48relationships at all and yeah I mean
44:51yeah so I want to get into like his
44:54psychology in that respect but as far as
44:56these women that are attracted to them
44:58what I see is exactly what you're saying
45:00it's they they it they can't for the
45:04most part not all of them they could
45:06never have a real relationship in the
45:09outer world with a real man
45:11so they it's it's very easy to have a
45:15fantasy relationship with someone that
45:16you can only meet you know with guards
45:19there to protect you from them
45:22um or or on you know or write letters
45:24and so it's it's easy to project
45:27whatever fantasy you want but these are
45:29mostly damaged women from dysfunctional
45:33backgrounds very often with Father
45:36issues and um
45:39and they they create a fantasy boyfriend
45:42like an imaginary playmate and like you
45:46say there has to be a certain amount of
45:48low self-esteem to I mean what what is
45:51Richard Ramirez's achievements nothing
45:53you know right he killed he killed
45:55random people who who he had contempt
45:58for because they were stupid enough in
46:00his words to not lock their doors or
46:03Windows and he he figured well they
46:05anyone that does that deserves to die
46:08yeah well and it's a control thing too
46:11because these women will know that he's
46:14I know where to find him you know it's a
46:17control thing I know he'll be there you
46:19know he's not gonna I think a lot of
46:21them think he won't go cheat on me with
46:23somebody else when in reality oh exactly
46:25oh well I've known uh I've known other
46:28women that just they like prisoners not
46:31they don't even have to be famous
46:33prisoners and that's always the case uh
46:36this has happened often they'll say oh
46:38he really loves me and he cares about me
46:40and he you know he says I'm the only one
46:42and I said you are so deluded you have
46:45no idea you know and and I've even
46:48talked to other prisoners that knew
46:51the same prisoner and they'd say no
46:53they're talking to 50 girls just like
46:56that and they tell like like a pimp they
46:59tell them oh yeah you're my only girl so
47:02yeah there's a lot of self-delusion low
47:04self-esteem
47:06uh and it's you know there's no risk in
47:08having a relationship and in a way you
47:11are controlling someone who could kill
47:13you as far as the control mechanism
47:16because they know this guy's bored
47:20they know secretly he doesn't give a
47:22damn about you but he and you know he
47:25calls you or he writes a letter to you
47:27so you have some kind of uh you've
47:31entered their life in some way and you
47:33have some sort of power over them but
47:35yeah but as far as his own psychology
47:38and his functionality and broken he was
47:41quite open about that he had
47:45um two brain injuries that he he had
47:48fallen when he was a little kid
47:50he would I I don't remember the whole
47:53story he was reaching for something high
47:56up on a shelf and fell and and was
47:58unconscious and had to get I think 30
48:01stitches to put his head back together
48:04and he he had no doubt that that caused
48:08damage to him
48:10um and then he had another very bad head
48:12injury which Richard Speck
48:15the guy who killed the nurses in 1966
48:18was constantly banging his head
48:21through his whole life you know until a
48:23lot of a lot of this Behavior comes from
48:26real brain damage
48:28secondly his mother
48:31worked at a shoe factory that used toxic
48:36um glue and there was no protection no
48:39masks nothing because they were you know
48:41paying paid less than minimum wage his
48:44parents were very poor in El Paso
48:47Texas and um
48:49and all of her many of her kids died
48:53because of this toxic fumes before him
48:57okay and and he was aware of that and he
49:00he was able to look at himself
49:02objectively enough to speculate that
49:04maybe the fumes got to him while she was
49:09pregnant so you had those things then
49:11his Uncle Mike
49:13Ramirez was a Vietnam veteran complete
49:17sadist and maniac and clearly then
49:19there's a genetic component to the
49:22Satanist to not not Satanism sadism yes
49:26and hate and hatred of women and
49:28misogyny
49:30um because micro mirrors in Vietnam like
49:34unfortunately many U.S soldiers use the
49:36fog of War to go to rape and kill
49:39Vietnamese women
49:41and he did and he took pictures of them
49:43Polaroids that he showed Richard when
49:46Richard was young and he showed pictures
49:48of decapitated heads of you know and the
49:52U.S army looked the other way in this
49:54these kind of uh atrocities happened and
49:57Mike Ramirez killed his wife in front of
50:01Richard yeah he shot her and that is a
50:04trauma that you know you had head
50:07injuries possible chemical poisoning and
50:11the the influence of his Uncle Mike who
50:15was showing him here's how you kill
50:17women and it's fun here's how you rape
50:19women he trained him to be that way and
50:23his father though his father didn't beat
50:25him or abuse him he was a angry
50:28alcoholic
50:29you know very unloving household
50:33and so Richard moved away when he was 15
50:35to Los Angeles and survived on the
50:39street
50:40and he told us all this you know he he
50:42learned how to pickpocket he learned how
50:44to steal
50:46[Music]
50:46um
50:47and he got involved with the auto theft
50:50ring at the Los Angeles train terminal
50:53the main train station and that's been
50:55true since the 30s the parking lot of
50:58the Los Angeles train terminal was
51:00always like a
51:02like a used auto
51:04showroom for stolen vehicles and he was
51:07part of that so he got involved in the
51:10traditional criminal the lowest
51:12you know gutter level of the underworld
51:15and he survived that way and then he
51:19started killing and and it seems to what
51:21he said the more he got addicted to
51:24crack
51:25he smoked crack cocaine which was very
51:27popular in the 80s and uh and heroin and
51:30speed and anything if he got whatever
51:33pills someone would have anything at all
51:36he was stoned all the time and smoking
51:39weed all the time constantly
51:42and that seems to be what precipitated
51:44the The Killing although it began as I
51:47said in San Francisco with this killing
51:49of a of a little girl which he never
51:52spoke to us about so
51:54so he was he was aware enough of himself
51:58to know that these things made him the
52:01way he was but he was
52:03he was not remorseful about who he was
52:07at all
52:08and what he was
52:10that's fascinating
52:12so never
52:14as I say so never once
52:17whether it was by phone or by in person
52:20meetings with him
52:23um
52:23no sign of the no sign of a hint of
52:26remorse at all no his only remorse was
52:29he really he was angry at himself for
52:31being caught that's it yeah remorse for
52:34himself yeah and and again this was on a
52:37on a religious belief right or wrong
52:39that he served Satan he did Evil Deeds
52:43for Satan and therefore ultimately Satan
52:46would reward him and so I don't forget I
52:49should mention this that we're sipping
52:51ahead into the future
52:54um in 2013
52:57I was doing a Buddhist Retreat and I was
53:01in in my own home but I wasn't
53:03contacting anyone not talking to anyone
53:05no phone calls no email nothing
53:08absolutely nothing I cut off everything
53:11and was only meditating and doing
53:14certain Buddhist practices
53:17and during this time when I had no
53:19contact with absolutely anyone I had a
53:22very Vivid dream
53:24that
53:26I I was in a very clinical White
53:31it looked like a morgue or or a school
53:35very desolate and and a mood of horrible
53:39depressing like you know the worst
53:42bureaucracy you could imagine that was
53:45the feeling of it and it was like a very
53:47very clean and white and very brightly
53:50harshly lit with fluorescent lights like
53:53between a morgue and a high school
53:55cafeteria okay yeah and a very long line
53:59of people very long unbelievably long
54:02line of people in front of me going on
54:05seemingly for miles
54:08um and then Richard was right in front
54:10of me but the younger Richard not the
54:13Richard in his 50s that he was in 2013
54:17that Richard that I had met and he
54:19turned around to me and he said and he
54:22said oh man hey I I figured you'd be
54:25down here I thought I'd meet you down
54:27here and we were in hell
54:30and I knew we really were
54:33we really were and I knew
54:36well okay if you're in hell you're dead
54:39I knew of you know I thought that and I
54:42I said
54:44I'm not I'm not staying I'm here to try
54:47to get you out
54:48and he said oh that's not going to
54:50happen
54:51and then and then he and he said you
54:54know it was very casual like well good
54:56to see you man I figured I'd see you
54:58down here and then he moved to like a
55:01prisoner like an institutionalized
55:03person who Moved along
55:04the line and obviously going into hell
55:09wow and
55:12then when my Buddhist retreat was over I
55:15went out and Xena said to me Richard
55:18died
55:19and I said when and it was that day
55:23that's wild
55:25yeah and I have no doubt if that was the
55:29last time I saw him it I it happened it
55:31was real
55:34Wild
55:35yeah
55:36oh my goodness
55:39um one of the questions I had for you
55:41and you you've touched upon a few things
55:43in regards to how Richard was in front
55:46of the camera versus behind the scenes
55:48what are some things about Richard that
55:51the media in the public got wrong about
55:53him
55:55if there is any
55:57um
55:59well that that he the media doesn't want
56:03to admit that he was performing for the
56:05cameras I mean he he he could I mean
56:08sure that was a part of his personality
56:10but you know he he he loved the uh the
56:14adulation and the groupies and the odd
56:16you know the the kind of negative
56:18attention he got he he liked the media
56:21to describe how horrible he was you know
56:25or the more negative attention he got
56:27the better
56:28what uh what I would say now when I met
56:32him he was intelligent he was reading
56:34books all kinds of books not just
56:36satanic occult books but all kinds of
56:38things he was he was intellectually
56:41curious he did have valid critiques of
56:45society I mean like for instance he he
56:48often said well what really when it
56:51comes down to it why are governments
56:54allowed to kill millions of people in
56:57horrible ways but I'm a monster if I do
57:00it
57:02is it some legitimate question I mean
57:04what is the difference that that it has
57:07that it and he was and he meant it he
57:09wasn't just being
57:11you know provocative he was saying well
57:13what is really the difference because I
57:15killed 20-something people and they kill
57:19thousands with the push of a button so
57:21what is the so one of the main things he
57:25said is or that he was concerned with is
57:27the the hypocrisy of society
57:31looking at the criminal and the serial
57:33killer as the worst problem in society
57:36but not looking at war or the armaments
57:40industry or you know the the
57:42glorification of violence in films and
57:45everything like well why do you keep
57:47selling movies about people getting
57:49killed and horror movies and you know if
57:52it's if it's so horrible then don't
57:54don't encourage it so he had social
57:57ideas I mean other things I think that
58:00would like he was very aware of his
58:02Mexican heritage and very
58:04proud of the Aztecs for their brutality
58:08and their he was very aware of the
58:11sacrificing and also he which is true
58:15like okay there was a whole civilization
58:17for
58:19you know
58:20a very long period of time that was
58:23based on killing people pulling their
58:26hearts out and sacrificing them so yeah
58:29so he was very like thinking in terms of
58:32moral relativism why am I so evil and so
58:36monstrous of these other things have
58:39happened
58:40um
58:41yeah I now
58:44as he got not even a little bit older
58:46you know the the amount of intravenous
58:49drugs he used
58:51and drug use in general and drinking
58:54blood occasionally which he told us he
58:56did and and other danger and also
58:58sleeping with street prostitutes you
59:01know with no protection he got hepatitis
59:04C
59:06um from that and that's what ultimately
59:08killed him and he he was not I don't
59:11know if they tried to treat him or what
59:13because we drifted out of touch once we
59:16moved back
59:17to Europe
59:19um and when was that when did you move
59:21back in relation to before we we really
59:24when we left I'll get to that I'll get
59:27it okay
59:28um because there's a final part of our
59:31our friendship with him that we had some
59:33like very occasionally he'd send a
59:35letter years later or a phone call but
59:38it did really our French as we distanced
59:42ourselves from occultism and Satanism we
59:44we really didn't have that much to do
59:46with him after a while but
59:50um
59:51so what was your question right before
59:52that
59:54was what the public you know the good
59:59um oh yeah well the media good I can't
1:00:03say good but uh
1:00:05yeah I would just say that he was more
1:00:07intelligent more had a more lively uh
1:00:10curiosity about things in the world with
1:00:13you know humorous he had a
1:00:15self-deprecation he was you know most
1:00:18psychotic people have no sense of humor
1:00:20at all I've noticed they have none
1:00:23he wasn't he didn't display to me or to
1:00:27Xena and he really signs of being out of
1:00:31touch with reality although other
1:00:33prisoners I spoke to and and some of
1:00:35guards said he did and so I've read his
1:00:39psychiatric reports he definitely acted
1:00:42completely crazy
1:00:43but I never saw any sign of that and we
1:00:46talked to him in many different
1:00:47conditions he see I would say he seemed
1:00:50pretty sound a bind for the most part he
1:00:54didn't have insane schizophrenic type
1:00:56ideas about reality compared to most
1:01:00people maybe
1:01:02um
1:01:03so that's what I would say and and you
1:01:05know he was very conscious of I am a
1:01:07celebrity and I'm playing up this
1:01:10Richard Ramirez act yeah
1:01:13not not to the extent of Charlie he was
1:01:16the master of that and who was like on
1:01:1815 000 different levels of playing
1:01:21different games but he certainly thought
1:01:24like I'm Gonna Act I I have this
1:01:27character I'm going to play of the Night
1:01:28Stalker
1:01:30uh one thing I don't think a lot of
1:01:32people are aware of when he
1:01:34was convicted he
1:01:37he during a visit he said can you um can
1:01:41you and Cena help me to to write my
1:01:44statement to the court because he's
1:01:46allowed so we we collaborated with him
1:01:49on postcards back and forth
1:01:52on what his final statement would be so
1:01:54we wrote about 50 percent
1:01:57of his final statement according to what
1:01:59he wanted not what we thought well we
1:02:01like we took it like a writing job or
1:02:03what what do you want to say and he told
1:02:05us generally and we tried to put it in
1:02:08more poetic language so Xena and I wrote
1:02:11half of his statement and he wrote half
1:02:13of it so this thing where he says
1:02:15Legions of the night you know and I'm
1:02:18beyond good and evil which you can
1:02:20easily find that statement we
1:02:23wrote that with him
1:02:25wow I did not know that that is
1:02:27fascinating and he and he looked at it
1:02:29like like he's kind of like in Show
1:02:31Business like it wasn't like he didn't
1:02:33even care that he got convicted to be
1:02:35killed it didn't it truly didn't matter
1:02:38to him at all that meant nothing he's
1:02:41thought well what's what's a cool thing
1:02:43to say though
1:02:44you know yeah
1:02:46well putting again putting it on for the
1:02:47camera
1:02:48right right
1:02:50yeah okay so you had talked about how
1:02:54you and Richard once you started to step
1:02:56away
1:02:58um from the Satanic religion that you
1:03:01guys
1:03:02kind of drifted apart and how his poor
1:03:05well we also moved we moved to Europe
1:03:07and we couldn't really visit him and and
1:03:09uh at that time it was very difficult to
1:03:12make phone calls to Europe same same
1:03:15with uh Charlie Manson could only write
1:03:18to us I mean before that I talked to him
1:03:20when we moved to Europe for the most
1:03:23part he could never call and later later
1:03:26he could when technology changed a bit
1:03:28but
1:03:30yeah so that was part of the problem was
1:03:32just uh logistic you know we were used
1:03:36to talking to him not writing to him so
1:03:38yeah he would call quite frequently when
1:03:41we lived in Los Angeles
1:03:43um
1:03:45the Final Act in our knowing him is
1:03:48interesting which says something about
1:03:50the insanity of Our Lives
1:03:53uh we were doing a radio werewolf
1:03:56performance on April 30th which is while
1:03:58purges knocked of 1990 it was at a a
1:04:04beautiful Ballroom in downtown L.A at
1:04:07this hotel
1:04:08and it was By Invitation not an
1:04:11invitation only but you had to get
1:04:13because of the controversy of our
1:04:15concerts at that point and the satanic
1:04:17Panic it was not even announced publicly
1:04:20it was a privately held concert for 600
1:04:24and 600 666 people
1:04:28and it sold out immediately
1:04:31and
1:04:33we had befriended the homicide detective
1:04:37from the Los Angeles Police Department
1:04:39named Detective Pat montoyer
1:04:42and how that happened was because the
1:04:46satanic Panic harassment of us had
1:04:48gotten so intense we actually had to
1:04:51make a point an appointment with the
1:04:53homicide department he he was like Van
1:04:56Helsing he was like a crusader going out
1:04:59to battle Satanism and we met with him
1:05:02and said look we are not doing a damn
1:05:06thing illegal at all so stop it you know
1:05:10we're not we're not killing babies we're
1:05:12not doing ritual sacrifice we're not
1:05:14doing any of this and he believed us I
1:05:18mean we had a very Frank meeting at the
1:05:20homicide department with cops around us
1:05:22running back and forth and you know
1:05:26um and he took the time to do it and he
1:05:28was kind of intrigued by it because he
1:05:30had never
1:05:31talk to real live satanists and then we
1:05:35became friendly with him and he said
1:05:37well
1:05:38okay we'll back off on this and you know
1:05:42thank you for enlightening me to that
1:05:44like well he'd say well what are your
1:05:46beliefs then and Pete tried to be as
1:05:49understanding as he could so we reached
1:05:52a reproachment with him then he said
1:05:55will you help us when there are crimes
1:05:58that have occult symbols or any kind of
1:06:01magical or or esoteric symbolism could
1:06:05you look at the crime scene photos and
1:06:08and notes and help us to you know to
1:06:11interpret them so to find Clues we said
1:06:13sure and we did
1:06:15so he became a friend I mean he'd call
1:06:19us just to have a conversation or joke
1:06:21around about things very morbid too he'd
1:06:24say he described what crime scene he was
1:06:27at or that kind of thing
1:06:29uh when we had this concert he called us
1:06:33one day very serious and said look the
1:06:36sheriff's department which is different
1:06:38than the LAPD as you may know from your
1:06:41looking into the Manson yes thing and
1:06:43they hate each other and they have a
1:06:45rivalry or they did
1:06:47he said the sheriff's department is
1:06:49going to arrest you on stage if you do
1:06:52this performance and frame you and he he
1:06:55knew about this for something so I'm
1:06:58telling you about it
1:07:00shortly thereafter
1:07:03Richard called us early in the morning
1:07:05like you get up early in the morning and
1:07:08in prison it was he was in San Quentin
1:07:10by then after his sentence had begun and
1:07:13and he woke us up really early in the
1:07:15morning and he said look
1:07:18uh someone a federal agent was here to
1:07:22interview me this morning
1:07:24they came in to talk to me and I thought
1:07:26they were here to talk to me about other
1:07:28crimes which he admitted there were
1:07:31murders that had not and maybe never
1:07:34will be known
1:07:36and he said I thought well there they're
1:07:39waking me up to like interrogate me and
1:07:42he said but no they were here to talk
1:07:44about you guys they were here to talk to
1:07:47me about you and and he said
1:07:51uh I'll never forget the intensity when
1:07:54he said man they are after your ass
1:07:58why he was warning us well the satanic
1:08:02Panic Madness of that time I mean
1:08:05people think it was fun and games you
1:08:07know and it was not we were at War
1:08:10with our own society and and you know
1:08:13people talk about freedom of speech
1:08:15freedom of religion well we saw that's
1:08:18you know try to exercise it in a way
1:08:22that is not acceptable no there is no
1:08:24freedom of speech or religion so so you
1:08:28got a homicide detective and Richard
1:08:31Ramirez calling us to warn us
1:08:36um and we left America shortly
1:08:37thereafter that I mean we were we had
1:08:40seen through it a long time before that
1:08:42but that that was very important in
1:08:45saying okay this this is not the land of
1:08:48the free yeah at all and uh and so that
1:08:52was
1:08:53I mean we continued to talk to him a bit
1:08:55now another thing we had agreed to do
1:08:58this book with him his biography and so
1:09:01a lot of then our conversations became
1:09:04okay let's go through your childhood
1:09:06let's go through your parents let's go
1:09:08through
1:09:09you know of everything psychology
1:09:13experience is all of it the crimes a
1:09:16great deal you know what how did you
1:09:19start doing it what were you thinking
1:09:20and and he was quite candid and then at
1:09:23a certain point like most criminals and
1:09:26he was still ultimately a thief and a
1:09:29street criminal he said I want you to
1:09:32send this I forget how much it was
1:09:34ungodly unaffordable amount to my
1:09:38parents I want you know because he did
1:09:41have a degree of Shame
1:09:42that he had destroyed his parents Life
1:09:45by making them known as the the Mother
1:09:49and Father Of The Night Stalker you know
1:09:52which is interesting because I believe
1:09:54he was a psychopath he had very little
1:09:57empathy but he warned us he saw us as
1:10:01his friends and he thought to warn us
1:10:03which shows the cost of empathy and he
1:10:06felt enough
1:10:08uh Shane about his parents that he
1:10:11wanted them to be compensated so he said
1:10:14to do the book I want and also I was
1:10:16going to do an interview with him in
1:10:18prison as I did with Charles which he
1:10:20agreed to because he he really liked the
1:10:23interview I did with Charlie
1:10:26um so we were going to do all that but
1:10:28then we said Richard we are not going to
1:10:30pay your parents this ungodly sum you
1:10:34know that's just ridiculous and he
1:10:36didn't get offended but so then the
1:10:38project ended because he insisted it has
1:10:41to be on that basis so he said all right
1:10:43well then we've done this work for
1:10:46nothing we're not going to do that
1:10:48and um then then he got more crook like
1:10:53and like can the next time you come can
1:10:55you guys smuggle in some weed for me
1:10:59and I you know we said you know with all
1:11:02this negative attention we have already
1:11:04that's the last thing we need is to be
1:11:07caught smuggling weed to The Night
1:11:09Stalker so no and he didn't you know he
1:11:13accepted that but it created a little
1:11:15bit of coolness and then he found other
1:11:19women I know who did do that for him
1:11:23um
1:11:26okay you mentioned Richard's parents
1:11:29that
1:11:30he wanted them compensated in some way
1:11:32did they after he was arrested or even
1:11:35sentenced did they have any relationship
1:11:37with him yes they talked to him and I
1:11:40believe they visited him okay
1:11:43yeah okay I never I I didn't talk much
1:11:46about him he didn't like really talking
1:11:48about his family but we did get him to
1:11:50tell us what what he would he clearly
1:11:53was very reticent about that but yeah he
1:11:56wanted them compensated so you know so
1:11:59our friendship continued but without the
1:12:01professional
1:12:03um goal of writing this book or making a
1:12:06documentary and then we left for Europe
1:12:08in 1990 and really didn't have much
1:12:11contact with him again very briefly like
1:12:14when we moved back to America he sent us
1:12:16one or two letters but another thing I
1:12:19have to point out I was mentioning this
1:12:21the illness the hepatitis
1:12:24not shortly it didn't take long his defi
1:12:29intellectual
1:12:31capacity diminished
1:12:34he was intelligent and bright and
1:12:36articulate and he got dumber and less
1:12:40articulate as he got older very quickly
1:12:43and it seemed to me that the hepatitis
1:12:46you know it up your liver and it
1:12:50doesn't then blood doesn't get to your
1:12:52brain and I don't know if it was damaged
1:12:55from the drugs or what but he became
1:12:58more simple-minded honestly as he got
1:13:01older like I see letters the letters he
1:13:04wrote us were fairly complicated and
1:13:06about philosophical or social things
1:13:09maybe because he was writing to us who
1:13:12he had a rapport with but his letters
1:13:16like if you look at them they're very
1:13:17mundane like what movies do you like uh
1:13:20what's your favorite food what they're
1:13:23like they don't really reveal anything
1:13:25about the person I knew
1:13:27and you may know that in the later stage
1:13:31of his life he was he had deteriorated
1:13:34so badly mentally that he couldn't even
1:13:37have visitors because he would
1:13:39masturbate compulsively in front of them
1:13:43and the guards would have to pull them
1:13:45back and eventually they they said you
1:13:47can't visit him anymore so he just sat
1:13:49in his cell
1:13:51and um
1:13:53and also he was extremely isolated not
1:13:55only be even before that because of his
1:13:58extreme notoriety I believe the the
1:14:01classification is k1
1:14:04which is also called keep away meaning
1:14:06keep him away from other prisoners if he
1:14:09was taken to a doctor's appointment or
1:14:12down the hallway for uh
1:14:14whatever they there had to be three
1:14:18people guarding him a sheriff you know
1:14:21or a sergeant rather guarding him
1:14:24and he really didn't have much contact
1:14:26with other prisoners and the prisoners
1:14:28he did contact he very often tried to
1:14:31frighten and terrify by threatening them
1:14:34or as is well known he'd show them the
1:14:37crime scene pictures that his defense
1:14:39attorneys gave him to show them what he
1:14:42had done wow so
1:14:44yeah and uh I heard a story from a law
1:14:47enforcement
1:14:49contact that I have that when he was
1:14:51first in there they would cut the the
1:14:53cops or the guards would mockingly call
1:14:56him Ricky they'd say you know like Ricky
1:14:59your lunch is ready and he and he'd say
1:15:01I'm not Ricky this is the house of Satan
1:15:05so but there was you know he he his life
1:15:09in prison was terrible because he was
1:15:11hated the guards hated him the prisoners
1:15:14hated him and the only relief he had
1:15:16really were these groupies and
1:15:19you know them admiring him while
1:15:22everyone else is hating him so yeah and
1:15:25once visitors stopped then
1:15:28you know yeah yeah I mean I've heard
1:15:30stories from like he really was very far
1:15:33gone at the end and then he ended up
1:15:35dying in a hospital and they're in he
1:15:38didn't die in prison yeah and I I saw
1:15:41the descriptions of it I tried to even
1:15:43find out from the guards but what I
1:15:45heard was that he was bright green by
1:15:48the time he died like
1:15:50you know
1:15:52very horrific condition
1:15:54yeah
1:15:56so he he deteriorated so much I don't
1:15:59know that we could have continued our
1:16:01friendship with him yeah
1:16:03what was your last conversation with
1:16:06Richard if you recall the very last one
1:16:08it was very banal it was it was when we
1:16:11were leaving to go to Austria and we'd
1:16:13call it we I mean he would call us I I
1:16:16think it seemed to me mostly on the
1:16:18weekends
1:16:20um he'd called just about every week for
1:16:23for a long time and so it was to say
1:16:25goodbye to him that we're going to
1:16:27Austria and but it was you know it's
1:16:30nothing special you never know when
1:16:32you're having your last conversation
1:16:33usually right but I remember it was that
1:16:36there were quite a few calls with people
1:16:39who um who we knew we wouldn't see for a
1:16:42while yeah so there wasn't anything
1:16:45anything dramatic you know you you never
1:16:47are aware when the last moment will be
1:16:49with someone yeah that is very true
1:16:52there's a lot of people who met him and
1:16:54found out yes
1:16:57so there's
1:17:00I mean as you know even though you're
1:17:01not
1:17:02necessarily True Crime yourself the
1:17:04whole True Crime genre is uh
1:17:07it's huge right now there's I mean like
1:17:09you said you referenced earlier the
1:17:10Netflix documentary so there with this
1:17:14Fascination about True Crime a lot of
1:17:15these big name serial killers like you
1:17:19mentioned earlier Ted Bundy Richard
1:17:21Ramirez
1:17:22um John Wayne Gacy Ed Gein so on and so
1:17:24forth
1:17:25um
1:17:27there's a lot of documentaries and a lot
1:17:29of movies and books that come out
1:17:31anytime that there is a documentary or
1:17:34whatnot about Richard how do you watch
1:17:37any of them because you once knew him
1:17:39especially this most recent Netflix
1:17:41story
1:17:42just a little bit
1:17:44not really I mean I know what was in it
1:17:47and I have watched little clips of
1:17:49things that people sent me
1:17:51um but
1:17:52no I mean like I don't in the same way I
1:17:55don't I I look like a new Manson book
1:17:57comes out I'll look at it for two
1:17:59minutes unless it has something you know
1:18:02it I I don't trust the media I I know
1:18:05how they have misrepresented me
1:18:07constantly and still do
1:18:09uh I I look at the newspapers like well
1:18:12I mean I know what kind of liars and
1:18:15exaggerators and
1:18:17you know and and most of these like I
1:18:21know how TV shows are made it's some
1:18:23hack who's not really even interested in
1:18:25the subject here's our project you want
1:18:28to write this and they research it for a
1:18:31few weeks
1:18:32and you know nothing is in depth and you
1:18:36know
1:18:37yeah like I don't even look at stuff
1:18:38about myself in any great detail you
1:18:41know because
1:18:42you when once you see the media's game
1:18:45you can't take it seriously anymore
1:18:48so no I have I now the book that we were
1:18:52going to write about him there was a
1:18:54book called The Night Stalker by Philip
1:18:56Carlo
1:18:57which was one of the first book I don't
1:18:59even know if there are other books about
1:19:01them That's how little
1:19:03I mean I know what he told me I
1:19:05experienced a real person so I don't
1:19:08need it mediated between
1:19:10someone else
1:19:11um yeah and this guy Philip Carlo I
1:19:15think he probably did pay his parents or
1:19:17do you he must have agreed to do
1:19:19something to get and it's just an
1:19:21ordinary True Crime book with no
1:19:23particular I don't know if you've read
1:19:24it
1:19:25and in it he um he he described Xena and
1:19:29I being at the trial and he describes us
1:19:32you know and he puts us in the chapter
1:19:35like about the satanic groupies and
1:19:37stuff and makes it sound like we went
1:19:40there because we admired him so much
1:19:42which is completely not true and um and
1:19:45he also says which also this idiot
1:19:47writer Dave McGowan has said he's one of
1:19:50the people that wrote that I cut my ear
1:19:52off as a sacrifice to Satan so
1:19:57we had this place called Hell House of
1:20:00Hollywood it was a wax museum on
1:20:02Hollywood Boulevard and the Discovery
1:20:04Channel was making a documentary about
1:20:07Richard at that time or I don't think it
1:20:10was a full documentary but at least a a
1:20:13fairly lengthy episode of some show
1:20:15and they came there and interviewed us
1:20:18and we had a wax figure of Richard made
1:20:22by the very famous wax master named
1:20:27Henry Alvarez
1:20:29um I can send you a picture of it maybe
1:20:31you can show it on your in in this
1:20:33broadcast that would be great so they
1:20:36came there because of that
1:20:38and they interviewed me and Philip Carlo
1:20:42the author of The Night Stalker came in
1:20:44to the
1:20:45store and saw Zina and I and when we saw
1:20:49him after the idiotic things he had
1:20:52written about us we turned on him like
1:20:54to hyenas like we there could have been
1:20:58another murder let's put it that way
1:21:01um and he and he was terrified and he
1:21:04left so it was funny we had some kind of
1:21:06poet but why he would think we would
1:21:08greet him in a friendly way yeah after
1:21:10the stupidity had written but but that
1:21:13happens quite often you know we you
1:21:15become demonized and dehumanized and
1:21:19people just think your fodder for
1:21:21whatever nonsense they want to say they
1:21:23don't even realize you might be offended
1:21:25if if you're being lied about
1:21:27but that happens all the time happens to
1:21:30this day constantly so yeah but that was
1:21:33our dealings with Philip Carlo but yeah
1:21:35I don't I don't keep up you know if
1:21:38someone told me some new information I I
1:21:40would look at it but
1:21:42like we did we did not know that he was
1:21:45raping little girls and kidnapping
1:21:47little girls and he never talked about
1:21:49that
1:21:53fascinating that he would be so open
1:21:55about everything else but that he he
1:21:58didn't lie about it because we didn't
1:22:00know about it but he certainly evaded it
1:22:02he never and he I mean he talked in
1:22:04detail about too much information about
1:22:08his sexual fetishes and what turned him
1:22:10on and and what didn't and what kind of
1:22:12women he liked didn't
1:22:15so yeah I think that's very telling that
1:22:17he he knew that there's a a boundary you
1:22:20can't cross yeah also of course if you
1:22:23said that in prison you'd really be dead
1:22:26very true
1:22:28their lacked a very social
1:22:32a time when you learn those social norms
1:22:35and social skills just the basic ones he
1:22:37missed out on all of that but somewhere
1:22:40along the line knew that one piece to
1:22:43keep to himself
1:22:45right right
1:22:46yeah I mean that's what made him
1:22:48interesting in a way was that he was a
1:22:50completely
1:22:52you know unsocialized person he he was
1:22:56he there was no social filter he was not
1:22:59civilized in any way I mean maybe he is
1:23:03that maybe he's what human beings would
1:23:05be without Society without culture
1:23:07without civilization
1:23:09yeah leaving aside the probable brain
1:23:12damage and drug abuse but
1:23:14you know and that's I think what he
1:23:16thought he said well I'm I'm do he
1:23:18believed everyone would do what he did
1:23:21if they could I don't think that's true
1:23:23but yeah we the human race wouldn't have
1:23:27survived but not that we're doing a very
1:23:29good job of
1:23:31doing that and we may not but
1:23:33you know so yes he did have some that
1:23:37was the only filter I can think he had
1:23:39he understood child raping and molesting
1:23:42would probably uh not go over that well
1:23:45yeah
1:23:46so as we kind of wrap up Richard Ramirez
1:23:49and your relationship with him are there
1:23:52any other points about him that you want
1:23:55to let us know that we can take away
1:23:59from this or do you think we kind of
1:24:00really covered Richard as I think I
1:24:02think we covered most of it I'm going to
1:24:04write a little bit more about it in a
1:24:06book about my entire the whole spectrum
1:24:09of my experiences with Satanism in
1:24:11general and there will be a lengthy
1:24:13chapter getting into a bit more detail
1:24:16but I think
1:24:18I think the media generally like unless
1:24:22the lowest Sensational media people
1:24:24treat his Satanism like it was just an
1:24:27affectation or
1:24:29or like a stupid uh appreciation of
1:24:33heavy metal or something but I would say
1:24:36it really was serious
1:24:38if he he was intensely interested in it
1:24:41I think he was not as he got late later
1:24:44in life I think he kind of dropped that
1:24:47from what I gather from other people who
1:24:49remained in correspondence with him I
1:24:51don't I think he didn't identify himself
1:24:54that way in the later part of his life
1:24:56so much but I'd say when I knew him he
1:24:59was intensely really and genuinely
1:25:02interested in it and and you can't
1:25:05ignore or pretend that it didn't have an
1:25:08effect on what he did he he believed
1:25:11commit he believed that doing evil was
1:25:15good
1:25:16yeah he really believed that and he
1:25:18wanted to do that he wanted to be evil
1:25:21um and and you know as far as the stream
1:25:24I had from what I understand of the
1:25:26spiritual world if you commit these kind
1:25:30of crimes and you create the kind of
1:25:32pain for the for his victims and for
1:25:35their families and and the fear that he
1:25:38created in all of Los Angeles I mean
1:25:40which he delighted in he loved it he
1:25:42wanted to make people frightened he was
1:25:45thrilled and and excited by that then
1:25:48you're going to be in hell
1:25:50that's where you're going to go
1:25:52immediately immediately and he is
1:25:56definitely in agony and anguish at this
1:25:59moment because of what he did
1:26:02not him not Richard Ramirez but whatever
1:26:04he has become his Consciousness is was
1:26:08instantly reborn in the hell Realms as
1:26:12it's known in Buddhism and Hinduism and
1:26:16um he will be there for a very long time
1:26:18because of what he did so far from being
1:26:21rewarded
1:26:22for his brief time on Earth there's no
1:26:25reward there
1:26:27yeah
1:26:28well thank you Nicholas so much for
1:26:30coming on Danny after dark and sharing
1:26:33your your experience and your
1:26:35relationship with Richard Ramirez it was
1:26:37very enlightening I'm hoping our
1:26:39audience took away something that they
1:26:41didn't know I sure took away things that
1:26:43I didn't know so thank you so much and
1:26:47thank you everybody for watching this
1:26:48and we will see you next time it was my
1:26:52pleasure thank you for the conversation
1:26:54and for inviting me see you soon bye bye

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