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💥 Interview with Jim Smyth: Colonel Russell Williams Interview Interrogator (2021) — Transcript

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0:00today we're gonna do something a little
0:01bit different a couple of weeks ago we
0:03did the interrogation of colonel russell
0:05williams
0:06and we were so taken by the interrogator
0:08he did such a great job we were
0:09flabbergasted we decided we want to talk
0:11to him
0:11so we sort of put the word out we want
0:13to get a hold of him and greg got a hold
0:14of him on linkedin
0:16and they talked back and forth and now
0:18he's going to be our guest this week so
0:19we're going to get to talk to him
0:21jim smith master interrogator
0:24oh the canadians and the blazers
0:27yeah what is yeah what is it what is it
0:30with uh
0:31at least we don't wear ties anymore
0:34at least we've given that up i just took
0:35my tie off i thought oh
0:37exactly there you go
0:40so jim tell us about what what do you
0:43think about all this
0:44uh getting would you have geeks like us
0:45getting a hold of you going tell us
0:47about you
0:48you know how does that been has it been
0:49pretty weird being
0:51internet famous from doing this oh yeah
0:54yeah it's been it's been interesting i
0:56mean it's it's opened up a lot of
0:58opportunities uh
0:59in terms of law enforcement training
1:01we've been we've been all over the world
1:02talking about
1:03uh not just this case but you know
1:05interview strategies in general so
1:07um you know even with uh even with all
1:10the covet issues we're still
1:12we're i'm working with the uh the
1:14european union right now uh with their
1:16policing mission in the ukraine so we're
1:17teaching
1:18ukraine officers over skype so which is
1:21interesting i mean you got all the
1:22translation issues but uh
1:24but yeah it's it's been a little bit
1:26weird but i mean this uh this case
1:28happened
1:2910 years ago so gradually you kind of
1:31get used to it so
1:32yeah yeah so jim what i i'd like to know
1:35as your background how did you get to
1:37there what training
1:38and you know we all get here from
1:39different ways and we'd love to hear
1:40your story
1:41yeah okay so uh well i started as a
1:44police officer back in 1989
1:46uh and after a bit of time as a uniform
1:49patrol officer
1:51uh my first uh sort of investigative
1:54role was actually in a child
1:56sexual assault unit where we were
1:58focused on child sex assault cases
2:01so i think that's really where i wanted
2:03to focus on honing my interview skills
2:06because when you think about a case like
2:07that
2:09a lot of them are you know the child
2:10comes forward to a teacher or somebody
2:12they know and they talk about something
2:14that happened to them
2:15could be months or years ago so really
2:18what we're left with is we have a child
2:21telling us something happened to them
2:23and we have no other evidence other than
2:25their statement
2:26so it became very critical
2:29in our view in our unit's view to focus
2:31on
2:33giving that interview of the suspect our
2:35best effort obviously
2:37and making sure that we conduct the
2:40interview in a way that
2:41it's going to be admissible and
2:42hopefully we get the guy to tell us the
2:43truth
2:44so we can avoid this kid having to be in
2:46court
2:47uh testifying so as a unit we're really
2:50focused on our interview skills that way
2:53um and then after that i developed uh
2:56an interest in you know the whole
2:58behavioral aspect of interviewing
3:00and i ended up going into a behavioral
3:04sciences section within our organization
3:06so we worked closely with the fbi and a
3:08number of uh state police agencies
3:11and uh i went through a certification
3:13process
3:14and then uh became a criminal profiler
3:18in 2006 uh i completed our forensic
3:22polygraph examiner's course
3:24at the canadian police college in ottawa
3:26and so i
3:27kind of took those two skill sets and
3:29put them together
3:30and then focused on you know high-end uh
3:34high-stakes
3:35interviews for lack of a better term uh
3:38travel back and forth across the country
3:40assisting uh you know mostly violent
3:42crime investigations with uh
3:44with difficult interviews uh and that's
3:48what i spent most of my time doing
3:50in the last 10 or so years i've moved
3:53into more managing investigations
3:55and managing people so right now i look
3:58after a region
4:00uh basically central ontario uh about a
4:02thousand officers
4:04uh criminal investigators and a number
4:06of different support teams
4:08well yeah that well thanks for
4:11everything you're doing
4:12for starters but yeah all of that
4:14behavior stuff is what we all have a
4:15passion for
4:16chase i know you're you're chomping at
4:18the bit to ask about specific training
4:21yeah so uh jim what was the specific uh
4:23methodology i guess
4:25uh for lack of a better term that that
4:27you went through
4:29well i got to tell you uh my first real
4:32training
4:33uh like a lot of police officers in in
4:35my generation
4:36was uh the re-technique uh so that was
4:39my first real exposure
4:41back in the you know late 80s early 90s
4:44um and then and then going on along
4:47those lines and
4:48um i'm sure you're all familiar with the
4:50read technique it's probably the most
4:52well-known uh interview technique out
4:54there um
4:56but we've we've certainly developed over
4:58the years uh
5:00you know you look at when that technique
5:01was was created
5:03and and uh built you know
5:0670s 80s when really that technique
5:10was only really known and taught to uh
5:13law enforcement so there was no real
5:16awareness out in the general public
5:18about what was going on with that
5:19technique and
5:20um but now you look at 2021 and
5:24you can watch uh you know crime
5:27documentaries and listen to podcasts 24
5:29hours a day so there's a real awareness
5:31about what the police do and how they do
5:33it
5:34and so people are a lot more
5:37sophisticated now i think
5:38in terms of what to expect from a police
5:41interview
5:42so you know the example i always use is
5:45you know my first
5:46uh course that i took they taught me if
5:48somebody was making denials i should put
5:50my hand up
5:51you know right almost right into their
5:53face and that'll stop the denials but
5:55you quickly learn that it doesn't just
5:56stop the denials it stops the whole
5:58conversation
6:00and the whole point of the interview is
6:02to keep people talking you know we
6:04they whether they're telling us the
6:05truth or not is is often besides the
6:08point it's we want that
6:09information flow and that that
6:11conversation to happen so
6:13um there's certainly a lot of things
6:14that i learned 20 25 years ago that i
6:17would never teach officers today um
6:20you know the reality is uh
6:24in canada i think it's the same as in
6:26states uh
6:27if we're going to interview somebody
6:29that we suspect of a crime
6:30it has to be on video you know there's
6:33no real excuse anymore
6:35for us going to a judge and saying hey
6:37you know i talked to this guy about
6:39something and uh and he confessed and
6:41well
6:41where's the video well he just told me
6:43off video it doesn't fly anymore in
6:45canada
6:46and i don't think it flies in a lot of
6:47places anymore so um
6:50you know everything we do now is on
6:52video and available to be scrutinized
6:55and picked over by juries and judges and
6:57defense lawyers so
6:59we're really focused on uh training
7:02officers to
7:04conduct an interview in the fairest way
7:05possible so that anybody watching you
7:07can say
7:08you know that officer was was doing a
7:11fair job and
7:12and giving the person a fair opportunity
7:13to have their say versus
7:15you know trying to control them and
7:16trying to control the interview with
7:19uh you know some of the techniques that
7:20we may have been taught 20 years ago you
7:22know
7:22so yeah i remember that hand technique
7:25it was hand up
7:26and say john i know that's really
7:28important to you and i promise we're
7:29going to get to that
7:31but before we do i'm going to keep going
7:34it destroys your board
7:35loses all your opportunities yeah yeah
7:37yeah and that does work it does work
7:39with certain people
7:40and with certain officers but sometimes
7:42what happens is you
7:44you know an officer takes the course and
7:46they just go in and they
7:48they they use the technique in a
7:50different way they were trained
7:51and now that's a an important statement
7:54that gets played in court and
7:56and then the technique gets attacked
7:57right i'm sure it's been attacked and
7:58distinct
7:59it's like it has in canada so for sure
8:01yeah big time
8:03scott how do what what is the way scott
8:05what's the way that you do the uh
8:08denial handling what i just i always go
8:11come on man
8:12hang on i do sometimes when i say hang
8:15on but it's more of a wave away than a
8:16stop you know not this it's more of a
8:18wave then you know
8:20hang on man and then go for you can't
8:21see what hang on and then go from there
8:23yeah i don't right yeah yeah
8:27i never got the i never did the whole
8:28stop thing but that's the way they
8:30i don't think they're still doing it
8:31that way now though i think they they've
8:33changed at this point
8:34i believe i could be wrong because it
8:37just doesn't make any sense that i
8:38haven't been there in a while
8:39but i've still got all the old books
8:41where they do say to do that but i'm
8:42sure maybe they've changed that by now
8:44i would assume you know yeah i think
8:46they have refined things a bit too
8:48so it's uh but there's you know there's
8:50different methods out there
8:52i mean this this interview is a perfect
8:54example when when this was in the media
8:57um you know after his guilty plea uh
9:00there was a lot of different articles
9:02and people contacting us because
9:04i'm sure you're familiar with uh you
9:06heard about the peace method
9:08uh it's very popular in britain actually
9:11it kind of started there and
9:12it's uh it's been brought to canada and
9:14in a lot of places in europe but it's
9:16it's it sort of bills itself as the
9:18anti-reid technique
9:20um it but when when
9:24the williams interview was in the media
9:26um
9:27we were reading articles and said this
9:28is a perfect example of the peace method
9:30and then some other people would say
9:32this is a perfect example of a read
9:34technique
9:36i'm sure we all know uh those of us have
9:38been doing this for a long time is that
9:40you know we never walk in a room saying
9:42okay today i'm going to use this
9:43technique
9:44because really exactly your direction
9:46where you're going to go is dictated by
9:48what that person is doing in the room
9:50yeah it's like a surgeon you never know
9:52what you're going to find once you once
9:53you get down in there
9:55i always say the intelligence because in
9:57intelligence
9:58interrogation often we use something
10:00called source directed
10:01interview which means you have no idea
10:03where you're going you listen to what
10:05they say you pick up on their source
10:06leads
10:06and you follow it and i watched you do
10:08that with him very effectively here
10:10whether you call it that or something
10:11else you picked up on his and
10:13and followed his words and used what i
10:15would call approaches from my sheriff
10:17intelligence background and beautifully
10:19so nice job on all that i always look at
10:21the real technique you always explain it
10:23like it's um
10:24it's like a muscle car you can put
10:26whatever wheels you want on it
10:27you and with your with your themes you
10:29can you can paint flames on the side and
10:31be dragging it down the beach with
10:32chains you don't have a picture made of
10:34that
10:34whatever you want to do you can if you
10:36look at it like that you can soup it up
10:38you can keep it really calm you can make
10:39it look real mousy or you can make it
10:41really loud and put like one of the
10:43greg's in the cars all that junk you put
10:44on the top that sucks in air and makes
10:46it do everything flames coming out the
10:48side
10:49so that that's the way i see it i like
10:50it because you can you can use it
10:52anywhere but as long as you use your
10:53you don't just go i i personally don't
10:55just use this strip to go right down the
10:57you know one two three four five six
10:59seven another because
11:00you change things change in there like
11:03yours did
11:04you know yours as you approach things
11:06would go over here and you'd scooch it
11:07back over this way god was
11:09beautiful man and so you did such a
11:11great job with that it's really uh
11:13yeah that was impressive it really was
11:16because this guy's
11:17did you realize that he'd been trained
11:19in uh
11:20resistance to interrogation because
11:22that's what greg used to do
11:24and uh i expect he would have been um
11:28what are the challenges we had and uh
11:30um i think i think you guys might be the
11:32only impression we had a whole
11:33uh a background on him uh but we didn't
11:37uh the challenge was that uh
11:41we first became aware of him on the
11:42thursday night and that was one week
11:45after
11:45jessica lloyd went missing and the
11:48evidence from that crime
11:49we knew that jessica had walked out of
11:51her house uh
11:52with the offender under her own power
11:56so there was a there was a real concern
11:58that she may be still alive somewhere
12:01we knew probably she wasn't just from
12:03our experience with violent crime but we
12:05were still
12:05treating it as a fairly extreme
12:08investigation because of that
12:10so um when we found out about him on the
12:12thursday night
12:14we were actually already engaged with uh
12:16with military investigators
12:19because of his first homicide he
12:21committed a few months earlier with
12:22murray franz cuomo who
12:24was a corporal on his base so they were
12:27assisting us for that investigation
12:29they were great people good
12:31investigators but
12:33our case manager who was managing all
12:34this chris nicholas
12:37i think made a good call because his
12:38concern was
12:40we could ask these guys to go find out
12:41about colonel williams but we knew his
12:43rank was so high
12:45we just didn't know what information
12:48that would trigger
12:49we thought this guy is so high up that
12:51if people start asking questions and
12:53gathering information for us
12:55he's going to become aware that
12:56something's happening so the decision
12:58was made
12:59we're just not going to go there we're
13:01just going to assume that you know
13:02because of his rank he's had some
13:04training
13:04along those lines but we uh we actually
13:06didn't have a detailed
13:08uh background on him at the time of this
13:10interview so
13:11when you did a great job of i i say we
13:13know all we know all means stop
13:15short that's a intelligence
13:17interrogation approach where we
13:18we allude to what we know based on the
13:20security clearance and then he made the
13:21mistake of saying that out loud about
13:23security clearance
13:24now you can allude to that did a great
13:25job with that and when
13:27in all my years of teaching i would say
13:28it takes a lot of smarts not to just
13:31say the wrong one more piece of
13:32information and go from we know all to
13:34we don't know
13:35so that was beautiful to watch and mark
13:37we're interrogating aching on here and
13:39i'm sure you got a question for john
13:41yeah so you know as you well know
13:45there was a lot of rank around williams
13:48not only within
13:49uh the the forces but the fact that
13:52um you know the trenton base is the
13:54start of the highway of heroes
13:56essentially and and and that's where the
13:59canadian forces start to celebrate
14:02uh you know the unfortunate soldiers
14:04coming back who
14:05haven't made it all the way home
14:06essentially so there's huge
14:08cultural um deference
14:12around that base and him especially
14:16and so when you talk about difficult
14:18interviews
14:20there must have been that difficulty of
14:22status which he immediately plays
14:24at the at the start of of that
14:28did anything really surprise you about
14:30what happened with
14:32with him was it surprised because he
14:33goes from this high status to somebody
14:36um you know shaking your hand at the end
14:39for for helping him out of this
14:41mess by confessing what surprised you
14:44along that
14:45route well i mean after the the portions
14:49that you guys watched
14:50um obviously he confesses and
14:54one of the things that he did was he
14:56still viewed himself
14:57as a very respectable person a proud
15:00military person
15:02uh so once he said i did it
15:05um he was an open book um
15:08we probably interviewed him for more
15:09than 40 hours over the next
15:12couple of weeks and months about a
15:14variety of issues and
15:16so he made that uh commitment to me
15:20that he would tell us everything and
15:23even once i think it was about two days
15:26later
15:27uh at the behest of his wife he retained
15:30a very uh accomplished lawyer in ottawa
15:34uh and you can imagine the lawyers gonna
15:37tell him
15:37as they all do keep your mouth shut
15:39moving forward
15:41uh and what he told the lawyer we
15:43believe
15:44uh or he inferred to be anyway was that
15:47i'll take her advice because you're my
15:48lawyer but i've also made a commitment
15:50to the police
15:51to cooperate so he would he would
15:54consult his lawyer his lawyer would
15:56obviously tell him
15:56stop talking but he would come and talk
15:59to us anyway because he wanted to
16:01be that person who kept his commitment
16:03so i found that interesting that even
16:05even after you know getting some very
16:07strong
16:08legal counsel uh he continued to uh to
16:12speak with us
16:12because he wanted to make sure uh one he
16:15wanted to make sure that this was
16:16over with as soon as possible he pled
16:18guilty to all of his charges
16:20uh as soon as he could and uh
16:23he wanted to protect the military and he
16:25wanted to protect his wife as much as he
16:27possibly could
16:28so he still saw himself as a man of
16:30honor even though he'd done these
16:32terrible things so i'm curious about
16:35about that because what do you think it
16:37is about the
16:39the character or mindset of somebody
16:41that goes from that
16:42that high status right at the start to
16:44by the
16:45very end shaking you by the hand and and
16:49you know thanking you for being part of
16:51this
16:52process of admitting to these crimes
16:55and then i guess having more
16:58responsibility towards talking to you
17:01than maybe even his own lawyer like i i
17:04i find it hard to square what's what's
17:06happening there so
17:07give us some insight into that well i
17:10mean i think i think that issue was he
17:13he believes he's somebody who keeps his
17:14promises right so
17:16he promised me he would keep talking to
17:18me he promised his lawyer he would
17:20consult with him before deciding whether
17:22to talk to us again
17:23so in his mind he's keeping his promise
17:26to his lawyer his lawyer is telling him
17:27don't do it
17:28he's saying i get what you're saying but
17:30i have to keep the promise to the police
17:32so that's that's kind of his mindset he
17:34uh
17:35he he he took the legal advice but he
17:38he continued to uh to speak with us
17:41and uh i think really a lot of it was uh
17:45obviously the media attention was was
17:47huge um
17:49every time an article came out or uh uh
17:52you know
17:52tv news uh covered something about the
17:55case
17:56it was another embarrassment to him and
17:57it was another embarrassment to his wife
17:59in the military and i think he was
18:00trying his best
18:02to just get it over with um
18:05i'm not sure how much you guys know
18:06about the evidence that was discovered
18:07after this interview but
18:09uh it was very damn evident see you know
18:11photographs and videos there was really
18:14no way for him to get out from under uh
18:16what he had done
18:17and uh from that point on he was just
18:20trying to get it over with
18:21and get it out of the media spotlight
18:24i think you did a great and beautiful
18:26job of yes there's a camera
18:28right there and then never mentioning it
18:29again i always am amused and amazed
18:32that you can have people feel like it's
18:34an intimate sitting and there's cameras
18:36and everything everywhere
18:37you want to talk for a minute about that
18:38because i think that's a beautiful one
18:41yeah i mean we we obviously let people
18:43know that things are being recorded but
18:44then we leave it alone after that
18:46and uh i found over the years even when
18:49you know cameras are pretty good now
18:51they're pretty small but years ago
18:53that camera was was front and center in
18:55the room right it was hard to avoid we
18:57used to have ones that you would
18:58actually
18:58wheel in on those big carts uh
19:02you know like the tvs you would watch in
19:04school kind of thing so it's right there
19:06in the room
19:06um but i mean you guys you guys hit on
19:09some of the things that
19:10he was going through like anybody in his
19:12situation be going through he's so
19:13focused on what do i do how do i handle
19:16this next question
19:18how do i manage uh and keep all my my
19:20lies
19:21straight to convince this person i'm i'm
19:23not worth looking at
19:25uh it's that camera becomes uh i think
19:28within a couple of minutes people just
19:30forget about it they're just so focused
19:31on
19:32on the person they're trying to convince
19:34they're not responsible for this
19:36so let me ask you this
19:39in your folder when you came in with
19:41your with your notebook and the folder
19:42and we're showing those pictures
19:44what all was in the folder how much
19:47not much
19:51there was a pad of paper i mean it was
19:52it was designed to look stacked
19:54um to make him think that we had a lot
19:57um
19:57we we had it was a good investigation
20:00and we were definitely moving towards
20:01him with or without this interview he
20:03would have been caught and convicted
20:05uh you know this interview was just
20:06really part of it that
20:08sped things up a lot for us obviously
20:10but the investigators were all over this
20:12thing and uh
20:13you know the forensics were they were
20:15all coming they just weren't there yet
20:17so uh we definitely had a lot of
20:19information to play with and uh
20:22you know as you guys know uh on a big
20:24case like this
20:26um you know i'm the face on the camera
20:28but there's
20:29there was i believe a half dozen six or
20:32seven
20:32really experienced investigators on the
20:34other side of that camera
20:36um two of them with uh they do the same
20:39job i do
20:40uh another criminal profiler the lead
20:42investigators there
20:43um they are and they're running through
20:46ideas and coming up with themes and
20:48and uh so you know to me that gives me a
20:52lot of confidence you know you're not
20:53there on your own you're not trying to
20:54come up with ideas on your own all the
20:56time you can step out of the room
20:57and they've got ten things that they
20:59want you to hit on right so you can go
21:01back in there
21:02and only have a good hour or two of
21:04material if you need it
21:06so that's that's huge for me yeah chase
21:10now that we talked that he brought up or
21:12jim brought themes as well why don't you
21:13explain what a theme is for
21:15the uh panelists watching this
21:18so a theme has some uh essential stuff
21:21in there
21:22and it's uh i i kind of categorize it
21:24into four things we minim
21:26we minimize rationalize project and
21:29socialize
21:30and maybe as a fifth thing emphasize the
21:32truth
21:34so those those are kind of the five key
21:35elements we have for
21:37most interrogations it doesn't matter
21:39what system you're looking at we want to
21:41minimize the seriousness of the crime
21:43project the blame and that's as an
21:46interrogator
21:46uh especially with jim uh
21:50it didn't happen in the in the williams
21:51interrogation but uh
21:53that's one of those things as an
21:54interrogator where you're talking to
21:55people who've done some really bad stuff
21:58and you may have to temporarily blame
22:01the victim
22:02to get that person to to agree with you
22:05or to get on that person's side
22:07and say well you know she shouldn't have
22:08been wearing that she
22:10she wanted sexual attention or she
22:12wanted whatever
22:13and it is nauseating uh especially when
22:16you're first starting out as an
22:17interrogator to say things like that
22:20and then we're projecting uh like you're
22:22not responsible for this you have a
22:24moral compass
22:25problem or you weren't you weren't in
22:26your right state of mind you had
22:2835 beers or all that kind of stuff then
22:31we're socializing it
22:33say how are people going to see this i
22:34think your friends are going to
22:35understand i
22:36want your family is going to see you as
22:38an honest person you know whatever this
22:39person
22:40is looking for and emphasizing the truth
22:42and
22:43we're developing that rapport
22:45maintaining rapport and saying i wanna
22:48my only job here is to figure out either
22:50a why this happened
22:52or you know i i need to get the reason
22:55that this this instance occurred so
22:58those are kind of that's what a theme
22:59would be but it's kind of a monologue
23:02uh and in interrogation schools you'll
23:04hear the theme described as a monologue
23:06but in reality
23:08there's interruptions all throughout a
23:10theme
23:11because somebody's jumping in somebody's
23:13chopping in there
23:15and that's there's more denials coming
23:16in but a theme is is basically a
23:18monologue
23:20uh with some interspersed dialogue
23:23and if you build a story around that
23:24theme or
23:26the theme is basically a story with all
23:28those things put in there
23:30yeah so coming back dialing back a
23:32little bit we're gonna say greg
23:34yeah i have a question for you jim so i
23:35always teach people that a good
23:37interrogator looks like a swan floating
23:39nicely on the water but underneath the
23:40water their feet are paddling like hell
23:42we all have been there where you get to
23:44a point where you go down the wrong path
23:45and you're like oh oh i hope you didn't
23:47catch it
23:47did you have one of those or more than
23:49one of those in your interrogation with
23:50him
23:51you know i think we're all our own worst
23:53critics uh
23:54you know as a as a police officer you
23:58generally what will happen is uh you
24:00know just i'm sure
24:01most people are aware of this but you'll
24:03take an interview like this
24:05and then two years later you're getting
24:07ready for the trial
24:08and you're watching that same interview
24:11and
24:11now you have two more years experience
24:13under your belt
24:14and you're watching that going why did i
24:16say that why did i put it that way
24:18i mean i i tell people when i teach i
24:20think i make a mistake about every five
24:22minutes
24:22uh on average in an interview and
24:25the things that i pick up on but maybe
24:27other people wouldn't but uh or
24:30an area i started to go towards but i
24:32realize it's premature or it's just not
24:34clicking the way i wanted it to so you
24:35have to back off and divert to something
24:37else
24:38uh but yeah certainly with uh
24:41with him um you know we had to be very
24:44careful because we didn't
24:46we didn't know a lot we knew he had some
24:48kind of connection to all four of the
24:50victims that we were primarily concerned
24:52with
24:53um we knew he had the right make and
24:54model of tires on his truck
24:56but thousands of people had those make
24:58and model of tires on his truck so
25:00i was when i walked in the room with him
25:03i i was probably 50 50 on whether he was
25:05our guy or not
25:06uh we've we've all been investigations
25:08like this where
25:09you know things are looking really good
25:11this looks like the right person we're
25:12moving in the right direction and then
25:14they say hey
25:15last week when that girl went missing i
25:16was on the other side of the country and
25:18here's all the evidence that proves it
25:20and you're back to square one so but uh
25:24so your guts if you you just weren't
25:25sure you're 50 50 going in huh
25:28yeah and i think maybe that calmed me
25:30down a little bit because you're
25:31thinking oh
25:32you know it's it's one thing when they
25:34say okay this is definitely the guy and
25:35you got to get him to tell us that
25:37a lot of pressure right oh yeah but when
25:40you're starting that sort of exploratory
25:42interview let's just find out what he
25:43has to say
25:45then you can go a little slower you can
25:47you can uh you don't feel as much
25:49pressure
25:50but certainly when he started to make
25:53comments uh
25:54you know uh jessica went missing the
25:57thursday night
25:58previous and he says to me uh
26:01you know about 20 minutes in i think
26:03that that's friday the next day
26:05he's at home with a stomach flu so he's
26:07got no alibi
26:09so things like that are starting to
26:10build where you're realizing okay
26:13this guy's not giving us anything to
26:15clear him right now
26:16and most of what he's saying is starting
26:18to build towards us believing he's
26:20he's probably the person responsible so
26:22when did when did it hit you when did
26:24you say
26:24okay this is it i got him i got it
26:28okay
26:31oh when i knew we we had the right guy
26:33yeah yeah
26:34where in the interview was that oh i i'd
26:38say
26:38probably the most glaring part was when
26:40we put the two uh
26:42the footwear comparison in front of them
26:44and when i said
26:45your boots went to the back of her house
26:48and here's a colonel
26:50in the military who i've now basically
26:53said
26:53i believe you abducted a girl if he was
26:56innocent he should have been jumping out
26:57of his chair saying how dare you accuse
26:59me of this i came in to help you find
27:01this girl and this is what you're
27:03this is what you're saying to me um you
27:05know he has that level of
27:07life experience and confidence that he'd
27:09be comfortable
27:10saying that to me you know some people
27:13when they're talking to a detective
27:14they may not have that level of
27:15confidence or self-esteem but he
27:17certainly did
27:18and for him to just look at that and say
27:21nothing
27:22so those were real prints jim yep
27:25yeah he walked uh he walked through some
27:27snow uh
27:28it was february so he walked through
27:30some snow um
27:32now when i say to him these are
27:35identical
27:36uh i think most people would look at
27:37those two because we basically just took
27:39the foot
27:40uh the shoe off his foot maybe 15
27:42minutes before that confrontation
27:45and you know put on a photocopier we
27:48didn't have anything more sophisticated
27:49than that available to us at the moment
27:51and we just eyeballed it ourselves uh
27:55but but he knew he was he knew those
27:57were the boots and uh
27:59you know it's one of those things when
28:00you think about how people think
28:02uh i called him at two o'clock in the
28:05afternoon
28:06he walks into the police station at
28:07three he's got about a 25 minute drive
28:10from his house to the police station so
28:12he had about 35 minutes once he hung up
28:14the phone to figure out what the heck he
28:17was going to do
28:18and so his mind is racing he's got to
28:20deal with this interview he's got to
28:22convince me that i'm not
28:24he's not worth looking at and he just
28:27simply
28:29didn't think about the footwear he was
28:30putting on his feet
28:32so in my world i would call that giving
28:34him homework right you give him homework
28:35to work on on his way on the drive
28:37yeah yeah no he was spinning right and
28:40uh you know of course he saw how he
28:41walked in the room right he's trying to
28:43be
28:44mr helpful i i you know i just want to
28:45help the police find this girl because
28:47her disappearance was very high profile
28:49and
28:49he wants to set an example for all his
28:51troops and he's doing the right thing
28:53and uh
28:54so you know that was an advantage for us
28:55with him is uh
28:57quite often people say well why why did
28:59he even come in and talk to you in the
29:00first place well
29:01he's a colonel of a base he's he's
29:03commanding 3 000 people
29:05and when the police ask him to help he's
29:08got to set an example and say yeah we
29:09should be helping in this case so he's
29:11really got no
29:12uh no way to convince me
29:15um that he's not going to come in you
29:18know whereas we deal with other people
29:19sometimes so
29:20you know gang members things like that
29:21who never talk to the police
29:23it's a lot easier for them to say talk
29:26to my lawyer
29:27yeah but he's got to look like that
29:29upstanding citizen who just wants to
29:31help right
29:31so so jim if he's if he's being mr
29:34helpful
29:35who are you being generally in
29:39an interview oh it depends on who i'm
29:42sitting across from
29:43uh for him i think uh you know it was it
29:47was helpful for us
29:48i think you saw with the uh the
29:50interviewers i'm
29:51i'm one of and i didn't really say how
29:54many other people but
29:55uh i wanted him to believe that i'm just
29:57following up on a task
29:59uh he's on my list of things to do and
30:02i'm giving him a call because his names
30:04come on my list
30:05and if you could meet up with me i got
30:06some questions for him and
30:08you know he basically said sure i'll do
30:10whatever i can to help
30:12and uh so yeah i i certainly
30:15generally don't put myself out there as
30:17the as the major decision maker or the
30:19lead investigator i'm just somebody
30:21who's collecting information
30:22and i'm going to pass an information on
30:24to the decision makers and they're going
30:25to come back
30:26and send me back to deliver the message
30:29they want me to deliver
30:30so columbus are you kind of a light a
30:32light bureaucrat
30:33of some sort just just you know a light
30:36just collecting a little bit of info
30:38nobody particularly important
30:39essentially exactly yeah exactly i think
30:42that
30:42i think that you know and it sell it
30:45sets people at ease like even an
30:47innocent person
30:48um i find they're more comfortable uh
30:52believing that they're just speaking to
30:53a peripheral investigator on a on a case
30:56versus the lead investigator because you
30:59know we do deal with innocent people
31:00quite often and uh
31:02we're trying to set everybody at ease
31:03not just russell williams because we
31:05think he's responsible but
31:07um you know we need the innocent people
31:09to talk to us too because
31:10quite often that they're willing to talk
31:12to us even if their lawyers told them
31:13not to
31:14the information they give us allows us
31:15to clear them and move on to somebody
31:17else
31:18but you say this is situation dependent
31:20so so
31:21if you're not being kind of the the
31:23pleasant bureaucrat
31:24who's just kind of getting through the
31:26day
31:28what are the other situations you end up
31:30in that you maybe have to take a
31:31different
31:32role and what would that role look like
31:36well there's some videos out there me
31:37being a little bit more assertive
31:39yeah yeah and they're uh
31:43they're dictated by the attitude of the
31:44person we're dealing with right and the
31:46level of crime we're dealing with
31:48um i think it was scott was talking on
31:50the on the on the show that i watched
31:52there about the uh
31:54you know the guys who want to grab that
31:56uh pad of paper and just get rid of it
31:58because they
31:59they just hate the fact that it's there
32:01um so we've we've been in those
32:03situations too i've been one
32:05you know one uh that i use for training
32:07where uh
32:08it's actually a laptop computer where
32:10i'm playing a an interview of a witness
32:13who's
32:13who's pointed the finger at a gang
32:15member for a murder
32:16and he doesn't want to listen to it so
32:19he just throws the computer off the desk
32:21and i put it back on the desk and it
32:23keeps playing he throws it off the desk
32:25again
32:26i put it back on the desk the screen
32:27breaks but you can still hear the voice
32:30and you know it's sort of his last sort
32:33of tantrum
32:34uh to try and get me to just give up and
32:36leave and uh
32:38you know it's a good training video for
32:40us because it shows investigators that
32:42if you can work through that
32:44seemingly uh you know strong wall that
32:47this person's putting up
32:50you know this particular guy he has that
32:52tantrum but he realizes that
32:54once he realizes that i'm not going
32:56anywhere uh he puts his head down on the
32:58table and you know 20 25 minutes later
33:00he's starting to tell the story and you
33:02know pinning it on somebody else which
33:04is
33:04what we want to do keep talking right so
33:06that's that's what i call the caesar
33:08milan approach
33:10[Laughter]
33:12you just stay there and stay consistent
33:15uh the entire time and you get it and
33:17cesar milan had a quote which i think is
33:19one of the best ever
33:21he said humans are the only only
33:23creatures on earth
33:25that will follow an unstable leader
33:28which really shows how powerful
33:30stability is
33:32especially environments like that and i
33:34have a quick aside question for you jim
33:36that i think our subscribers which we
33:38refer to as panelists
33:40so for the panelists watching this have
33:43you had an unusual encounter where
33:45somebody recognized you from the
33:46internet
33:47like out in public or something it's
33:49like oh hey you're that you're that guy
33:52uh yeah a few of them um
33:55i'm i'm a pretty non-descript looking
33:57guy so i usually get away with
34:00with uh not being recognized but uh
34:02usually it's uh
34:04it's police officers that will recognize
34:05me because they've seen the videos
34:06they've seen the training and uh
34:08uh but yeah i can't think of one where
34:11just somebody's come up to me out of
34:13nowhere
34:14uh but you know i've got i've got two
34:17young sons uh well they're not young
34:18anymore they're in their 20s and uh
34:20they both thought a lot of world
34:21traveling and uh my one guy talked about
34:23being in a
34:24in a bar in uh in chile and uh
34:27telling him from canada and you know the
34:29guy starts talking about watching this
34:31the video of russell williams and so
34:35you know that was kind of cool for him
34:36he's going well that was my dad on that
34:38video of course the guy didn't believe
34:39him but
34:42well have you ever walked into an
34:44interview room and and the
34:46and the person there's gone hang on it's
34:48you all right
34:49i i i i did it i'll cut to the chase has
34:52that ever happened
34:54ah you know i don't think it's ever been
34:57that clean
34:58but uh certainly the year or two after
35:01uh after this
35:02um all the media hype around this case
35:05uh
35:05i had other investigators say well you
35:07could talk to me or you can talk to the
35:09guy that interviewed wrestlemania
35:13it had a positive effect it worked the
35:15way i wanted to work so
35:16yeah darth vader suit
35:21jim how do you think being an
35:22interrogator has helped you the most
35:24with your kids like raising kids as they
35:26were growing up
35:28oh man i i've always said that they're
35:31the only two that can probably get away
35:32with lying to me and i can't figure it
35:34out but uh
35:35you know they're they're good guys and
35:36uh they've um
35:38they've been they were really exposed to
35:40all of this
35:42uh you know when they were only uh
35:4512 13 years old this was all happening
35:47out in the media and uh
35:49and so you know they would go to high
35:51school law class
35:53and be watching this this video
35:56uh with their classmates so it uh it
35:59certainly impacted them
36:00and um they've always kind of blamed me
36:02about maybe maybe they would have
36:04had more friends come over to the house
36:05if i wasn't their dad
36:07you're sort of the justin bieber of
36:10interrogation
36:14that's what it looks like millions of
36:15views fans both are canadian
36:17what i always find funny is that people
36:19think that you're going to be a heart
36:21it's going to be hard like you said you
36:23can scream and yell and do all that
36:25and then when you're not at home
36:27especially when you meet new people
36:28they're always afraid you're going to be
36:29doing this to them how do you deal with
36:31that because i'm sure
36:32especially with your your level of of
36:35popularness at this point or renown that
36:38anybody you meet
36:39is going to be going hmm that's that guy
36:43yeah yeah it's it's i mean my friends
36:46are my friends right i mean my neighbors
36:48and uh so we joke a lot about it right
36:49if only people really knew what you were
36:51really like
36:51because you know they they talk to
36:54people and they say that they know me or
36:55they're my neighbor and
36:57uh but they know who i really am and uh
37:01so it's it's it hasn't really affected
37:03my personal life that much
37:05um but yeah it is a bit odd as a police
37:07officer to have your work
37:09uh out there in the public public realm
37:11like that
37:12uh in canada anyway this was one of the
37:15first cases where
37:17um a judge approved the release of this
37:20type of
37:21evidence to the public realm so um
37:24you know there was obviously a lot of
37:25media interest and
37:27so these clips that you see on youtube
37:30were the same clips that were played
37:32in the sentencing hearing and as a
37:34result of it being played in open
37:35court uh the judge ruled that they're
37:38now public property and they can be
37:39given to the media
37:40and put out there so it wasn't something
37:42we even expected to happen uh because it
37:45was one of the first cases where there
37:46was
37:46enough interest that it got released um
37:49so yeah it was
37:51it was odd to go from you know somebody
37:54who
37:54uh you're just kind of doing your thing
37:56and you know working away like you know
37:58tens of thousands of other police
37:59officers in the country and then all of
38:01a sudden you're
38:02all over the front page and on news
38:04shows and
38:06you know over and over again so uh
38:09that's it's it's been hard to get used
38:12to
38:14sure you are to us you know so here's an
38:17opportunity
38:18for us jim to get some get some feedback
38:20because you know we're able to take that
38:21footage
38:22we're able to do our analysis of it make
38:24a show out of it
38:25but was when you watched you know our
38:27analysis was there anything there that
38:29you kind of went
38:30hang on what is that english guy talking
38:33about is
38:34nonsense is there is there anything that
38:36we really uh
38:38got wrong don't you can pick on me
38:39because i'm asking the question
38:42we don't have an ego about it yeah so
38:44you know
38:45what what did we get wrong if anything
38:47there
38:48nothing really uh nothing really
38:50significant guys i mean uh i know you're
38:52you're obviously looking at it and
38:55trying to uh
38:56surmise what's happening um i think you
38:59had a lot of uh
39:00things that were going on in his mind
39:02his body language was was bang on
39:05um i got to tell you though like my
39:08my uh conduct in that room i think a lot
39:12of it is subconscious when you've been
39:13doing
39:14it so long you know you don't say okay
39:16now i'm gonna roll closer to him i'm
39:17gonna back up you don't have those
39:19conscious thoughts you're just sort of
39:20doing it because it just feels right at
39:22the time and uh
39:24i gotta tell you like i was when it was
39:27three o'clock in the afternoon on super
39:28bowl sunday when this interview started
39:30but i
39:31i was exhausted you know when the
39:32interview started because
39:34uh i've been called on the friday
39:36morning
39:37you've been stopped on the thursday
39:38night obviously the alarm bells went off
39:40and
39:41and uh you know the the major case
39:43manager said we gotta we gotta look at
39:45this guy
39:46um but they had been already going for a
39:49whole week
39:50um looking for jessica so they're
39:53already exhausted now they've got me
39:55there
39:55now we're working through all the issues
39:57about how do we best approach this
39:59so you know three long days and
40:02and when you're looking for somebody who
40:04you're worried is maybe still alive
40:05somewhere
40:06even when you put your head down for a
40:08few minutes you're not doing anything
40:09close to getting meaningful sleep so
40:12you know that when i offered him that
40:14coffee uh at the beginning of the
40:16interview
40:17i really needed that coffee
40:21but yeah i mean i i don't i didn't see
40:23anything you guys said that
40:25really set me off as far as oh they're
40:26way off base there and and really i mean
40:28that's
40:29primarily why i decided to reach out to
40:30you because i i thought that you guys
40:32were doing a good service and
40:34uh you know you obviously have a lot of
40:36skill and knowledge yourselves and
40:38and uh i thought it'd be great to have a
40:40conversation with you
40:41so i just want to follow up on on that
40:42because because it's interesting for me
40:44you're saying you know it's hard to get
40:46sleep when you've got that pressure off
40:48there's somebody out there that you
40:49could still you know help discover
40:53just give me some insight into that
40:54because you know again we're just
40:56analyzing a film that's that's over
40:58you're living that that moment
41:01what is that kind of pressure like and
41:03what is it what does it do to you in the
41:05room
41:06what are you having to handle in the
41:07room knowing that there's that pressure
41:09out there
41:11well i i guess you kind of get used to
41:14that kind of pressure i mean that's
41:15really what my job was at the time
41:17i was uh you know almost 10 years into
41:19doing this kind of work so
41:21most of the time when i'm going into a
41:23room it's because i'm dealing with
41:24somebody who
41:26they just haven't been successful with
41:27yet i mean in this case it was our first
41:29interview with him
41:30they knew right off the bat this is
41:32going to be a challenging interview but
41:34quite often i'm called in to interview
41:36people or my colleagues are called into
41:38your people that have been interviewed
41:39two or three times already
41:41and they just haven't gotten anywhere
41:42and they don't have any other
41:44significant evidence to help them move
41:45their investigation forward so
41:48there's quite often a lot of pressure on
41:50us to to come through with
41:51with something meaningful out of the
41:53interview it doesn't always have to be a
41:54confession
41:55but at least let's get this person
41:57talking so they can give us some
41:58information that we can go out and
41:59investigate and decide
42:01if it's true or not um so yeah the
42:04there's pressure there but uh you know
42:06go back to what i said a couple minutes
42:08ago that pressure is really relieved by
42:09the fact that i know i have
42:12two three four sometimes uh people that
42:15are are just
42:16as highly trained as i am out there to
42:19come in and take the reins if i run out
42:20of things to say and that happens
42:22quite often um you know there's times
42:25where
42:25you know i went from beginning to end
42:27with this guy but there's times where
42:29i'm a few hours
42:30in and whatever's happening the
42:31relationship's not building the way we
42:33think it should
42:34um we're just not making the headway we
42:36think we should and it's time to come
42:38out
42:38and and regroup and try another angle
42:42yeah when you when you as you're going
42:44through there i said this guy looks like
42:45an accountant he looks like he's getting
42:46ready for your taxes
42:48did you go that did you or did that i
42:50didn't mean to buy me out of that
42:52as a respectful thing because you went
42:54in and you look you did not look
42:55aggressive at all with this guy who's
42:57somebody who can
42:58you know obviously you know he's he's
43:00ready for war he could he you know he
43:02kills people for a hobby so it's one of
43:04those things where you uh
43:06or did i hope you weren't offended by
43:08that because i didn't mean that to be
43:09mean i mean
43:12no no not at all i mean that's the goal
43:14right to keep them in the room
43:15yeah so exactly our job
43:19i love i i love the fact you went in
43:21with an approach
43:22meaning in your mind how you're going to
43:24be in that whole demeanor and keeping
43:26that demeanor
43:27and you know giving him pressure and i i
43:30think
43:30i'd ask you to talk a little bit about
43:32when you run out of things to say to him
43:34where did you hit because we
43:35we could see a couple of times where you
43:37were just like man this guy needs
43:39we could tell you're right on the edge
43:40and you could feel it what were those
43:42cues for you
43:43to tell you i need just a little more
43:44pressure
43:46well i mean the obviously
43:49i think for all of us we could
43:51understand how difficult it is to let
43:53those
43:54silences happen right um you know we
43:57when we hire police officers we we hire
44:00people that
44:00we expect to do a number of different
44:02things you know one of the things we
44:03expect to do is to run into dangerous
44:05situations that everybody else is
44:06running away from
44:08so you're looking for that type of
44:09personality in somebody
44:11and when you i'm a good example of it it
44:14took me a long time
44:16to not fill those awkward silences when
44:19they happen
44:21but again when you when they're
44:22happening you know i'm trying to think
44:23of the next thing to say to him that's
44:25going to
44:26cause him to consider uh you know
44:29talking further to me um but i'm also
44:32not wanting to say the wrong thing
44:34and i don't want to interrupt what his
44:36thought process is and so it's
44:38it's tough for i think for most police
44:40officers to allow those silences to
44:42happen and to
44:43give him the time to think and mull over
44:46what his next step is or what he should
44:48be doing is
44:49is difficult so um so yeah
44:52there's there is definitely times during
44:54those silences where i'm like should i
44:55say this thing now that i want to say or
44:57should i just let it go a little bit
44:58longer
44:59um so it's their judgment calls right
45:02you're trying to figure out you know
45:04what's actually resonating with him and
45:07uh
45:07you know the night the nice thing about
45:09this particular person
45:11uh and his approach to me was he just
45:13came out and said it at some point
45:15you know i'm concerned about my wife and
45:17i'm concerned about the reputation of
45:18the military
45:20so he just he just laid them out these
45:21are these are the things that i'm
45:22worried about
45:23and all i had to do was try and figure
45:25out how to help him mitigate those
45:26concerns
45:27and let him know that we were going to
45:28work with him on those issues and i
45:30think that you said that
45:32i like that you said what are we going
45:34to do russ
45:35yeah and as a team from a team
45:37perspective
45:39i think that really maybe i think that
45:41was one of the things that might have
45:42helped him
45:44start moving i think so yeah letting him
45:46know that i'm i'm there to
45:47to get him through this and and you know
45:50as much as we want to make sure he's
45:52convicted and held responsible for the
45:53horrible things he did is
45:55that is part of our role is to help him
45:57work through that process of telling us
46:00what happened uh so yeah it is
46:04you know i i would never want to think
46:05that i'm part of a team with russell
46:07williams but
46:08uh when you're in those interviews you
46:10are working together to try and get that
46:12information out there as uh as
46:14succinctly as you can
46:15so was there any point at all you
46:17thought this guy's a psychopath what did
46:19you how did you approach that with him
46:20from a person
46:21from his personality type from that
46:23perspective going in
46:24did you think he was a psychopath did
46:26you think he was just a
46:28malignant narcissist did you think he
46:30what did you think when you were going
46:31in there what was on your mind
46:34we thought he probably wasn't a
46:35full-blown psychopath he definitely has
46:37psychopathic traits
46:38to do what he did so we knew he had a
46:41side to him
46:42that wasn't purely uh selfish and
46:44psychopathic that there was there was
46:46other issues going on there
46:48um and that's why i think the the
46:51approach where you see on the video
46:52talking to him about
46:54you know you don't want to be the next
46:55bernardo and i think mark explained
46:57everybody who paul bernardo is to canada
46:59everybody knows who
47:00who he is he's you know he's he is a
47:02pure
47:03sadistic psychopath and uh
47:06you know and that's what i wanted to
47:07make him aware of i wasn't seeing him
47:09that way
47:10that we we had an awareness that as bad
47:13as what he had done was
47:15we knew he could have done worse and he
47:17had opportunities to do
47:18more horrible things that he chose not
47:20to so uh
47:21i think letting him know that we had
47:23that awareness um
47:25you know kind of continued to build that
47:27rapport that we were giving him a fair
47:30uh you know a fair shake that we weren't
47:33trying to make him even worse than he
47:35was
47:35so excellent
47:40who's next well i'm kind of interested
47:43in in
47:44in where you see yourself going now
47:46because uh you know here you are
47:48with us um we're not looking
47:51for a fifth member right now but you
47:54know who knows
47:55who knows we'll let you we'll let you
47:57know this isn't an interview of any sort
47:59but we'll let you know but what
48:01you know you've got an incredible uh
48:04history an incredible renown
48:07now i i you know i don't know when you
48:10plan on retiring and what you
48:12what your world is at the moment but but
48:14where do you see yourself
48:15going i'm just fascinated with that well
48:18i do plan on retiring
48:20actually i'm uh i'm probably going to
48:21retire in the fall okay
48:23but uh and i love teaching i mean uh
48:26okay
48:27the days that go fastest for me uh you
48:29know i do a lot of teaching to
48:30to uh police officers now and when you
48:33talk to police officers about what they
48:35want to learn more about
48:36it's how do i communicate with people
48:38how do i get that conversation going so
48:40i can get information
48:42to uh to find out what happened no
48:44matter what it is it could be a
48:45shoplifting a stolen car
48:47whatever they're looking at so when we
48:50sit
48:50in a in a classroom and talk to uh
48:54police officers about both the things
48:55we're talking about today
48:57they can't get enough and we end those
48:59days and they're saying when can we come
49:01back and do this again
49:02because it's uh it's their bread and
49:04butter that's what they do every day
49:05trying to get people to talk to them and
49:07and give them you know reliable truthful
49:09information so
49:10um it's uh it's pretty gratifying so
49:13that's right
49:15that's that's an amazing um an amazing
49:18thing for
49:19for canada and i get i guess you'll
49:21you'll travel elsewhere as well
49:23you know you've got an audience in front
49:25of you now what would be
49:27your number one thing for getting
49:30somebody to
49:31to talk to you just you know for the
49:33general the general
49:35watcher out there the panelist out there
49:36what's the number one thing
49:38for getting somebody to talk
49:40[Music]
49:41just respect i mean and showing genuine
49:44respect
49:44right no matter what they're you want
49:46them to talk to you about uh everybody
49:48wants to be respected
49:49right and uh and when it comes to my
49:52line of work uh
49:53when you're dealing with people uh you
49:55know whether it's a victim a witness a
49:57suspect
49:58um you know the suspects know they've
50:01watched
50:02you know all the all the tv shows out
50:04there they know what a stereotypical
50:07uh police interrogation looks like so um
50:11you know i've i've got tons of examples
50:12where people are just
50:14so surprised about how the interview
50:15actually went uh
50:17you know we talked about a case where
50:20you know
50:21sort of died in the wool hardcore street
50:23gang member
50:25um that we believe was involved in a
50:27homicide and
50:28uh wasn't a coffee that time it was uh
50:30he was hungry so we got him a
50:33a big mac from mcdonald's and uh you
50:36know that's how we started off the
50:37conversation
50:38and that was a very difficult interview
50:40went on for
50:41a long long time much different than
50:44russell williams
50:46and uh you know eventually he does give
50:48us information and does admit his
50:50his involvement and i always like to
50:53debrief them
50:54uh right after you know once they've got
50:57it off their chest and they've told us
50:58the truth
51:00um then i like to go into that
51:01conversation you know what made you
51:03decide to tell us this today what about
51:05our interaction here uh made you decide
51:07to talk to us
51:09and uh you know that guy when i asked
51:11him that question he said
51:13nobody's ever bought me a big mac before
51:15and he's been interviewed by the police
51:17you know some simple things you know
51:19it's just uh
51:21just trying to treat them like they're
51:23you know no matter what they've done
51:25that they still have uh
51:27you know a right to be treated with
51:28respect and um
51:30you know even when we're dealing with
51:31people that have committed crimes like
51:32williams has at the time we're dealing
51:34with them
51:35they're not convicted yet they're still
51:37you know relatively free people i mean
51:39obviously we're going to arrest him and
51:40he's not going to be free anymore but
51:42um you know we try and portray that as
51:45much as we can
51:46that's funny it's rather like you get a
51:48very high net promoter score which is
51:50when somebody
51:51says would you recommend me to a friend
51:53it's like would you
51:54would you recommend jim smith to other
51:57perpetrators that you
51:58you know they're like yeah 10 out of 10.
52:01jim's the guy
52:02you know you get a you get coffee you
52:04get you get you get a
52:06a big mac it's it's a great experience
52:08everybody should have it
52:11is there a book in your future because
52:12i'd love to have one on my shelf back
52:13there me too
52:15i don't know i don't know i uh you know
52:17i think one of the things we talk about
52:20now
52:20is that uh you know when you look at um
52:24technology that people have access to
52:27now
52:27that they can communicate with i mean uh
52:30back when i started in policing
52:32you know we didn't even have cell phones
52:33right we so the
52:36you were hiring people that were used to
52:38communicating face to face and having
52:40difficult conversations face to face
52:42and now we're seeing more and more
52:44people in society in general that
52:46if they want to have words with somebody
52:48if they're upset with somebody
52:50they'll text them you know they'll email
52:51them they'll they'll choose that
52:53that less uh personal uh conversation so
52:57when we hire them as police officers
53:00they may not have that life experience
53:03that allows them
53:04to be comfortable having those
53:05face-to-face difficult conversations so
53:08we're really putting an emphasis on
53:11you know seeing those people and
53:14realizing that
53:15they may not have that life skill to the
53:17level that you know somebody their age
53:19may have had 20 years ago
53:20um you know yeah i'd covered into the
53:22mix um
53:24and just the fact that everybody's
53:25staying apart from each other right you
53:27lose that
53:28ability to have those uh you know you
53:31know more intimate conversations and uh
53:34so we're we're focusing on those issues
53:36to try and see how we can overcome that
53:38because
53:39there's really no way you can
53:41interrogate somebody you know by a text
53:42message
53:43you have to sit down with them face to
53:45face and if they're not used to doing
53:47that it can be challenging
53:49yeah and jim i will tell you it's not
53:50just police work it's corporate america
53:53it's
53:53you name it it's the same problem
53:55because altercation is not
53:57a comfortable space for people the
54:00capability
54:00so i think there's certainly room for a
54:02book in that today
54:05yeah i've certainly got clients at the
54:06moment who you can who i'm saying to
54:08them
54:09uh you you you have employees now
54:12who have never had a face-to-face
54:14conversation with anybody else in the
54:16organization
54:17never been face to face with a customer
54:19and some of them
54:20have have never even been face to face
54:23with
54:24anybody yet they've come straight from
54:26you know straight into their first job
54:28and no experience of being in the same
54:32location
54:33as somebody on in in a professional
54:35manner so i can
54:36i can totally see what the the the force
54:38is up against
54:40there in terms of getting in the right
54:42material essentially
54:44yeah yeah and we're hiring a lot of
54:46smart people
54:47they have all those other skills but
54:48they just haven't had that exposure
54:51to uh you know and then as soon as
54:52they're a police officer that's
54:54that's like i said that's their majority
54:56of their time is speaking to people face
54:58to face and
54:59and often difficult circumstances right
55:01it's uh
55:02and uh they're right into the fire
55:07so chase has disappeared somewhere i'm
55:09not sure i'm not sure
55:11he'll be knocking on the door to try and
55:14come back in
55:15but listen seriously thanks for being
55:16here with us we really do appreciate man
55:18we were so excited we could hardly stand
55:20it and we're and so we really hope
55:22you'll come back and talk to us again
55:24well i i really had a great time guys i
55:26appreciate it thank you
55:27do you think you'd want to be you think
55:29you would be a guest panelist on here
55:31with us one time
55:31and do what we do with us oh yeah that'd
55:34be good
55:35that's uh well that's your call i guess
55:37it would depend on what we're talking
55:38about and uh
55:38but yeah i'm open for sure you could
55:41pick what we talked about if you wanted
55:42to
55:42yeah you know if it came down to it
55:46well whatever it is yeah i always say we
55:49cover
55:49we cover murderers politicians and other
55:52liars
55:56all right well sounds good yeah well
55:57we'll stay in touch for sure let me know
55:59what you're working on and
56:00maybe we can do something again okay
56:02thanks so much man
56:03wonderful all right all right you guys
56:05thank you thanks jim
56:16[Music]
56:21thank you
56:34is

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