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Interview with Dr. Marvin Olasky, June 2, 2014 — Transcript

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0:03for 16 years from 1989 through 2004
0:07booknotes was cpan signature author
0:10interview program focusing exclusively
0:12on contemporary non-fiction the
0:14booknotes series created an unparalleled
0:16television forum for writers of history
0:19biography politics and public and
0:21cultural
0:22Affairs the booknotes format was simple
0:25one author one book one hour for a full
0:29hour every Sunday night 52 weeks a year
0:32non-fiction writers were asked to
0:33discuss their most recent work beyond
0:36the book subject matter authors were
0:37also queried about their research the
0:39writing process and their own lives and
0:42influences the result is a body of
0:44televised interviews that serve as a
0:46lasting scholarly resource for authors
0:48researchers students readers and
0:51Educators George Mason University
0:53libraries is now adding to this Trove of
0:55information by re-interviewing selected
0:57authors about their experiences as part
0:59part of the booknotes
1:02series good morning today is Monday June
1:062nd
1:072014 and we are interviewing author
1:10Marvin olki who appeared on booknotes on
1:13January 22nd
1:161995 to discuss his book The Tragedy of
1:19American compassion good morning
1:22Professor alasi thank you so much for
1:24joining thank you so much for joining us
1:27sir I am very glad to be with you I
1:29would like to know how did your book
1:31come to be on
1:34booknotes uh well the the the
1:40entire uh situation was a was a real
1:44surprise to me uh early in
1:491995 in uh what was touted as as n
1:54gingrich's inaugural address uh he had
1:56just become speaker of the house he uh
2:00was talking uh on National Television
2:04giving giving his uh his inaugural
2:06address and suddenly uh in a discussion
2:11of uh American history and welfare
2:15reform he suddenly said that I commend
2:18to all of you Mar alasky's book The
2:20Tragedy of American
2:22compassion uh I didn't have any advanced
2:24notice of that I think uh people around
2:29the country hear that would of course be
2:31asking Marvin who tragedy
2:34what and uh suddenly this became a
2:39sensation among reporters because uh the
2:42indiv the individual naming me in the
2:44book are completely unknown and all the
2:48attention being paid to uh to n and what
2:51his agenda would be uh what is this book
2:55and reporters were going around trying
2:57to get a copy of it uh there weren't any
3:00any copies available at that point
3:02because this also came as a total
3:03surprise to the to the publisher regnery
3:06and um uh for some reason the the uh
3:11incredibly
3:12fine uh interviewer and president I
3:16believe of
3:17cpan uh became interested in this also
3:21and uh he as he as he told me went
3:24around to a bunch of bookstores spent
3:26several hours I think he said trying to
3:28get a copy of it
3:30found it and then uh some I got a call
3:32can you can you come on book notes with
3:35which I really was not particularly
3:37familiar yeah so that was that was also
3:39a surprise he had I believe in the
3:42interview he talks about having to go
3:44all the way out to hearen to find the
3:46book which is you know a considerable
3:49distance from you know the CN CN C-SPAN
3:54Studios to to find the book and that
3:57that was
3:58a this this this impressed me also and
4:01uh uh certainly uh beyond beyond the
4:05normal Call of Duty but uh great Valor
4:08on the part of a journalist to go all
4:09the way up to
4:10hearen uh so how did you prepare for
4:13your uh appearance on booknotes I did
4:17not uh the I was again this was all a a
4:21surprise I I was committed
4:25to uh teaching a weeklong journalism
4:28course
4:30for uh uh graduate students in theology
4:34Seminary students at reform Theological
4:36Seminary in Jackson Mississippi so I
4:39went and did that and was totally
4:41occupied in that and then uh and then
4:44went to uh flew up to Washington for uh
4:48a conference that had long been
4:50scheduled this was uh there was a
4:53quarterly meeting and may have been B
4:56monthly at that point of uh of pro-life
4:59leaders from around the country and so I
5:01went up to Washington for that and in
5:04the and these were these were dayong
5:07conferences and that occurred every two
5:09or three months at that point and uh I
5:14had agreed to go over to uh uh to to be
5:17on booknotes uh so right in the middle
5:20of the meeting I just uh uh which again
5:24it was in probably just a couple of
5:25blocks away from the from the studios in
5:27Washington I just headed over there
5:30uh figuring okay this is an hour it's
5:31going to take and then they're going to
5:32come right back to the meeting so I had
5:34done no preparation at all for it and
5:38didn't really again I wasn't familiar
5:39with book notes uh I knew cpan but uh in
5:45my mind the the reach of C-SPAN uh was
5:48very limited so I wasn't thinking of it
5:51as a as a big deal I was just going to
5:52go over and do a quickly and then come
5:54back to the to the meeting discussing
5:56where the pro lifee movement was going
5:58well let's let's discuss your your
6:00appearance on booknotes uh what do you
6:03remember most from the show and if you
6:05could describe uh the office and the
6:08setting and what the uh staging of the
6:11interview itself was
6:13like you know I I don't remember
6:17anything the office in the setting and
6:19the staging what I do remember is is
6:22this I mean two things in fact uh number
6:26one um are our
6:30wonderful
6:31interviewer uh is
6:34very uh does not does not uh insert
6:38himself into the interview in terms of
6:43uh uh debating or talking about himself
6:47any way I've had interviewers who have
6:49uh spent much of the time talking about
6:52their own reactions to the book what
6:54they think about the book how they grew
6:56up uh it's it's basically an opportunity
6:59for the interviewers to talk about
7:01themselves uh that wasn't the case here
7:04but he did want to ask some precise
7:08questions on uh the setting in which I
7:12in which I heard uh somebody heard the
7:16uh new King which referring to my book
7:18again as a as a big surprise and so I
7:21interpreted his questions very very
7:25literally uh he he said he asked uh
7:29right the beginning you so where where
7:30were you when you were when you heard
7:32this speech or listening to it and so I
7:35again in a very little away said well uh
7:39let's see I was in the I was in the
7:40kitchen and uh just wandering around
7:44then I and then I heard him say this and
7:45I went into the living room and he
7:47correct he say okay what city were you
7:50in and so I was in Austin Texas at that
7:52point so I remember that feeling very
7:55foolish at that point but uh um but then
7:58you know it was a
8:00he he had actually read the book and and
8:03read it very thoroughly so that was a
8:05delight because most interviewers as I
8:07learned uh never read the book well
8:10booknotes hourong format differed
8:12greatly from most of the network
8:14television interviews which lasted three
8:16minutes or less what do you think are
8:18the benefits Andor drawbacks of this
8:20longer format for the author and for the
8:23viewer well the the other thing that I
8:26remember very very clearly about it
8:28along with lack of clarity the lack of
8:30memory and other things is that once it
8:34appeared on booknotes I got a huge
8:37amount of letters and and uh uh email at
8:43that point uh and and other responses to
8:47it in other words this was a time
8:49because because I was such an unknown
8:51and this was a unknown book and it was
8:55of uh suddenly of such magnitude that
8:58there were lots of interviews that came
8:59in at once and I took seriously the CBS
9:05and NBC and and other type of network
9:08interviews and as I mentioned I I I
9:11really wasn't taken very seriously and
9:13wasn't really preparing for the sepan
9:14interview but I think I received at
9:18least 10 times as many responses and
9:23questions and queries concerning the
9:24cpin interview with those on CBS or NBC
9:28and know a couple of things I can think
9:30about there number one the the long form
9:32the hour long as opposed to the three
9:34minutes and secondly the those who do
9:37watch C-SPAN uh highly involved highly
9:40motivated highly interested as opposed
9:42to just the incidental interest but
9:45someone uh you know watching CBS or NBC
9:49with a thousand other things on his mind
9:51is likely to have well judging from the
9:54extensive marginalia in his books it
9:56appears Mr lamb read them thoroughly
9:58before the interview
10:00uh he Mark marked them up rather
10:02extensively do you find this to be
10:04normal for interviewers and how does
10:06this change the interview
10:09process no that is very abnormal for
10:12interviewers uh I probably
10:16did uh during those during those initial
10:20months uh certainly at least at least
10:23100
10:24interviews and the percentage of
10:28interviewers who who actually had read
10:31the
10:32book uh was probably not more than
10:3610% and the percentage of interviewers
10:39who had read it very very
10:43carefully and probably made marginal
10:46notes may have been 1% namely Brian Lamb
10:50himself and no one
10:52else well Mr lamb asked about an
10:54author's research and writing methods do
10:57you believe the reading public finds
10:59these details about the practice of
11:01writing interesting and do you think
11:03other authors or Publishers find them
11:05interesting as
11:07well uh I suspect part of the reading
11:10public finds them interesting and again
11:12a higher percentage of those who watch
11:15booknotes than than probably anything
11:17else find that interesting uh most most
11:21may not but um that's hard that's hard
11:24for you to judge uh yeah I think other
11:28other writers find it's interesting how
11:30you do it the I know when I've when I've
11:34taught uh when I've taught beginning
11:36writers and I've done that a lot yeah
11:39they always want to know uh how do you
11:41where do you do it how do you do it uh
11:45how many words do you want to write a
11:46day or do you try to write a day and you
11:49know back I mean now now these days just
11:51but everyone uh uses of course computers
11:55and so forth back then there was the
11:57question of well do you use a computer
11:59use a typewriter uh do you do you write
12:02by write it by hand I mean Shel
12:08be I think I think uh younger writers in
12:12particular are really interested in the
12:14techniques and interested in do you have
12:16do you have a particular time of the day
12:18do you write you try to keep a regular
12:20schedule uh do you where exactly do you
12:23ride can you ride anywhere can you ride
12:25on a bus on a train on a plane or do you
12:26have to do it in a particular office uh
12:29yeah those questions I think are are
12:30very interesting to Young author older
12:32authors probably set in set in their
12:35ways not so interesting general public
12:37probably not so interesting well Dr
12:39alasi you um are both a journalist and
12:42an a historical author um do you go
12:53about um good question
12:56uh there there's a
13:01uh at at at the margins there's there's
13:03a
13:04blurring
13:06um but but
13:09fundamentally probably yes uh for most
13:12history unless you're dealing with
13:14people are still alive it's much more a
13:17question of records and libraries and
13:21writing most journalism is largely a
13:24question of uh of talking with people
13:27and going places and so forth so so
13:30that's that's very
13:31different um the the the basic thought
13:41process what happened and why it
13:44happened and in fact the same uh the
13:47same who what when where why how the
13:49journalists use is also important
13:51exorian uh and then in in
13:55writing
13:57the uh journalist is always looking for
14:03action and asking questions uh uh who's
14:08my protagonist who's my antagonist
14:10what's the what's the mission of the
14:11protagonist what obstacle does he face
14:15uh that's who you need to keep it Lively
14:16and I think the same thing pertains to
14:18historical writing the the best writers
14:22of history books are often people who
14:24have some uh
14:26journalistic training I'm think of for
14:29example Rodney Stark uh for many years
14:32the University of Washington now at
14:34Baylor who writes on religious history
14:38uh was a was a journalist earlier on and
14:41that helps a lot even on what can often
14:43be as abstract a topic as uh
14:48theological and philosophical battles he
14:51brings a journalist sensibility to it in
14:54terms of trying to develop a narrative
14:56and and keeping it moving so
14:59I think there are a lot of overlaps and
15:02uh if historians think journalistically
15:05it's like their their product is likely
15:07to be far more readable than uh if they
15:11are pure
15:12academics very interesting well Mr lamb
15:15frequently asked his guests biographical
15:18questions did that surprise you and is
15:21this generally different from most
15:22author interviews you have experienced
15:30um no in fact I'm just thinking uh many
15:35interviews people really do want to get
15:37into the into the biographical questions
15:40especially if there seems to be
15:41something mysterious about the author
15:44the uh the question in fact in in in uh
15:49uh in the tragedy of American compassion
15:52towards the end
16:00one uh adventure of the sort that I went
16:03on after doing six months of research at
16:06the Library of Congress uh it was March
16:10and the weather was getting a little
16:13less cold in Washington and I decided to
16:16go out for a couple of days uh dressed
16:19as a homeless guy with uh you know some
16:23tape on my glasses and
16:26wearing a couple of
16:29uh odoriferous t-shirts and the uh
16:33sweatshirt and so forth and I just
16:36wanted to find out what kinds of
16:37services I've been writing writing or
16:40researching the history of uh of trying
16:45to help people who are poor and
16:46particularly often folks who are
16:48homeless so I wanted to go out and just
16:50see what kind of services uh food
16:52clothing shelter medicine will be
16:54offered to homeless people in washingon
16:56today and I did that and and found an
16:59interesting experience and in education
17:01I wasn't trying to get into the mindset
17:03of a homeless person but just in terms
17:05of services there were there was plenty
17:07of stuff offered to me but there was
17:09never any personal care or
17:12concern that page that one page in the
17:16book is probably
17:18what uh the interviewers who actually
17:21read the book and maybe maybe even the
17:23publicist at that point send out
17:24something directing them to that that
17:26was the that one page was the P I got
17:29the most questions off from interviewers
17:31generally because they were interested
17:32in the biography and they were they were
17:34interested in that particular uh bit of
17:37personal research as opposed to library
17:39research so yeah I don't think I don't
17:41think uh I mean the length of time of
17:44course that that Brian L spending this
17:45was very different but I don't think the
17:47interest in biography was different than
17:49the
17:50normal were there any questions that he
17:53asked that surprised
17:56you well besides besides well where were
18:00you exactly uh when you heard about this
18:03which I guess s not surprised me but it
18:05said uh I just I know I don't I don't
18:07recall any but I just remember coming
18:10away from him thinking wow he actually
18:11he actually read the book and and is
18:15thinking about the implications of it so
18:17I was very impressed but again I I I
18:21left at the end of the hour and and
18:22didn't really expect much to come out it
18:24much to come out of
18:27it uh did you watch booknotes before or
18:30after your own interview and if so why
18:33and did your experience on the show
18:35change your impressions of
18:37it uh no I didn't watch it before uh
18:42there were several times I watched it
18:43afterwards not in regular basis but I
18:45but I now knew about it and uh and
18:49sometimes when there when there were
18:50particular authors there were several
18:52times I tuned in but it wasn't a regular
18:54thing yeah it certainly did change my
18:56impression of it namely the the reach of
18:58it
18:59uh and the reach of C-SPAN at that point
19:02which uh which surprised me and after
19:04that a few times I went on C-Span when I
19:07was in Washington on the uh the early
19:09morning show uh discussing events of the
19:12day and uh yeah I always I always
19:15enjoyed doing it so after that uh as
19:19opposed to as opposed to thinking well
19:22C-SPAN uh is is
19:25subprime uh with prime being uh major
19:28networks at that point uh after that I
19:31always uh wanted to go on C-Span
19:33whenever the occasion made possible so
19:36one of our questions is uh about the
19:39difference in sales or national
19:41attention for your book after you
19:43discussed it on book notes and so you're
19:46basically telling me that not only did
19:49you get what they call the C C-SPAN
19:51Spike uh in sales but you became more uh
19:57of a I don't want to use the word
20:00celebrity but you became more of a of an
20:04asset for uh as a person who can
20:09discuss
20:15uh to uh uh
20:18separate the C-SPAN bump from the
20:22general bump that was going on right
20:23then
20:24because again because because new was uh
20:28suddenly bursting upon the national
20:30scene and then and then suddenly talking
20:32about this unknown book uh there were
20:36lots of profiles uh wre journal and and
20:41uh uh all and lots of other National
20:44Publications just about all of them in
20:46fact so there was that Spike from that
20:49and uh I think the uh the the the
20:53booknotes was the was the single
20:55certainly the best interview uh of uh of
21:00that whole time in in terms of the the
21:02preparation of the interviewer and the
21:03questions he was asking and again a lot
21:06of uh I do I do suspect that uh it it
21:11greased sales of the book but uh I don't
21:14know how much because it was getting a
21:15lot of publicity in other areas also at
21:17the same time right the book note series
21:20focused entirely on non-fiction books
21:22published between the late 1980s and
21:262004 what do you think might be the
21:28advantages of an 800 book collection as
21:32this collection now is uh with that
21:34particular non-fiction
21:38Focus well it would it was
21:40certainly uh it would tell you a lot
21:44about what one very uh perceptive and
21:50intelligent reader Brian Lamb uh thought
21:53were the most interesting books coming
21:55out of that whole
21:56period uh would that be would it be
21:59representative generally of of what was
22:02going on uh in publishing and in
22:04non-fiction publishing during that
22:06period that I don't know uh would the
22:09would the books generally be uh be uh
22:13readable yes uh would you know would
22:17they all be incisive uh uh that I that I
22:20don't know but uh uh it would it would
22:23certainly be a a a window on uh on
22:28American non-fiction writing during all
22:31those
22:31years Brian lamman cpan uh in the book
22:36note series had a rule that authors
22:39could only appear on the program one
22:41time if asked would you have returned
22:44for another interview
22:47sure did your experience with Brian
22:49lamman booknotes cause you to rethink
22:51any of your own approaches or
22:53assumptions regarding your research or
22:55writing
23:01not that I recall okay and what have you
23:04been working on after this book um I
23:07know of course your your work as the uh
23:10editor-in chief of World magazine um but
23:15can you describe some of the other books
23:17you've been working on and what have you
23:19found in them that has pleased
23:22you well there were uh there were three
23:26sequels
23:28uh to the tragedy of American compassion
23:31MH uh one that uh largely as a result of
23:36all this attention from booknotes and
23:38others that I started uh uh uh writing
23:42right away which was uh um if I even
23:47remember the title of it renewing
23:48American
23:49compassion which was uh a more
23:54journalistic uh attempt that that
23:56summarize some of the themes of the
23:58tragedy American compassion but then
23:59tried to tried to make some new
24:01applications of it in particular in
24:03relation to the the welfare reform
24:05debate of 95 and
24:0796 and then there was uh uh when when
24:12then Governor George W bush uh read the
24:17read the book and uh was interested and
24:20I started doing a little bit of uh
24:22volunteer work with him that led to a
24:26book that I traveled around the country
24:29to research in
24:311999 um called compassion
24:34conservatism and came out in 2000 and
24:37then and then later uh another book on
24:40after Katrina which was called the the
24:42politics of disaster so there were those
24:44three books uh there were books on
24:53other their uh how their religious life
24:56and their personal life influen their
24:59behavior and you know a couple of other
25:01books along those lines one on uh called
25:04the religions next door that grew out of
25:07a comparative religion course I was
25:08teaching in the University of Texas so
25:10it had chapters on Hinduism and Buddhism
25:13and Islam and
25:14Judaism U and a couple other things like
25:17that but L largely most most of my most
25:20of my work really 20 years has has been
25:22with world and editing it and
25:26writing um writing columns and articles
25:30for it well in your estimation what has
25:33been the lasting impact of booknotes in
25:36the then Contemporary American society
25:38and perhaps in subsequent
25:42times well certainly Dre public
25:44attention to a lot of books that
25:45otherwise would have largely gone
25:49unmentioned
25:50uh
25:52and and um I mean one of the things and
25:56I I still I still don't know
25:59uh where Mr lamb is is politically but
26:04uh he did not seem to and again I
26:07haven't I haven't done a study of all
26:09the of all the uh the books and the
26:12authors he interviewed but it strikes me
26:15that he did not care particularly about
26:17political correctness so the the uh his
26:24his I mean he interviewed authors from
26:26all over the political Spectrum and that
26:29was important because uh uh you know the
26:33the uh I mean NBC and CBS and ABC would
26:36tend to Puff certain types of books that
26:40were more on the on the liberal side of
26:42the spectrum and uh I don't think uh I
26:46don't think that was the General um tilt
26:50of uh of of Brian so you know I think I
26:55think that uh probably
26:58future historians if they uh if they go
27:01back and and look at at the books that
27:05uh that he the office that he
27:08interviewed would find uh would see a
27:12much more interesting
27:15discussion uh concerning American life
27:19and if they just looked at the um at the
27:24you know the the the lead reviews from
27:26The New York Times or the New York
27:27reviewer book or or others so a a a
27:31broader understanding of America would
27:33come out of that and what influence
27:35that's had I don't know but I suspect
27:37that uh it did help the the uh the
27:42discourse uh over over all those years
27:45because uh a whole variety of different
27:48types of ideas were put forth and not
27:50just those that were put it the corre
27:52well is there anything that you would
27:54like to add regarding the booknotes
27:56program cpan or Brian l
28:00well actually I mean maybe not so much
28:02for for this purpose but uh uh
28:06I uh over the
28:10past um let's see over the past seven
28:14years
28:15now I
28:17have uh first at the Kings College in
28:20New York City and now at Patrick Henry
28:22College located just outside of
28:24Washington brought in people for
28:26interviews in front of the students
28:28and I try to do it
28:37basically I try to talk as little as
28:39possible and ask questions to uh
28:42encourage the
28:47authors the books so uh yeah I've just
28:52uh I have admired his way of
28:56interviewing again not not inserting
28:58himself being as journalists like to
29:01call more a fly on the wall a talking
29:03fly in his case because he has to ask a
29:05few questions but you know they're not
29:07long questions and he's always trying to
29:09push the respondents to give specific
29:12details about you know how they ride and
29:21and uh Brian Bryant interviewing
29:24technique and if you will give me or
29:28send me contact information for him I
29:30would like to interview him uh before
29:35Patrick Henry col student uh sometime
29:37sometime next next winter or spring so
29:41Dr alasi thank you for agreeing to do
29:43this oral history interview and for
29:45sharing with us your experiences on this
29:47groundbreaking television interview
29:49program thank you so much sir

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