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Interview w/ Coleman Hughes: The End of Race Politics — Transcript

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0:00our constitution is colorblind and
0:03neither knows nor tolerates classes
0:06among its citizens those are the words
0:08of Justice John Marshall
0:11Harlem today I'm joined by Coleman
0:13Hughes the author of a powerful indeed a
0:16courageous new book the end of race
0:18politics Arguments for a colorblind
0:21America Coleman is a writer podcaster
0:24and opinion columnist who writes about
0:26issues related to race public policy
0:28applied ethics his writing has been
0:30featured in New York Times Wall Street
0:32Journal many many other Publications and
0:34he's a regular contributor at CNN and
0:36the Free Press and a few years ago he
0:39was included in the fbes 30 under 30
0:42welcome Coleman it's a pleasure to have
0:44you pleasure to be
0:46here I've been following you work for
0:48many years uh and I'm pleased to talk
0:51about your book when it came out I saw
0:53an announcement I think it was on
0:54Twitter it's coming soon so I rushed to
0:56get an advanced copy to read it and I
0:58wanted to dive in just to get on the
1:00table what your claim is so maybe a few
1:04decades ago the idea of color blindness
1:06would not have been as controversial as
1:08it is today and in effect people when
1:11they hear color blindness they process
1:13it very differently so I wanted to get a
1:15read from you why is that why how do you
1:19understand color blindness and why has
1:20it come to have such a bad reputation
1:23today as you pointed out if you go back
1:26to say the late 60s the days of the High
1:30classical Civil Rights Movement almost
1:33everyone who wasn't a Jim Crow
1:36segregationist would have agreed that
1:38color blindness is the end goal in other
1:42words we want to get to a point in
1:44society where a person's race a person's
1:47skin color is considered totally
1:50irrelevant it's not just the civil
1:53rights leaders that would have agreed
1:54with this at the time even the book
1:57black power the manifesto of the
1:59movement
2:00of the same name acknowledge that
2:03ultimately the end goal should be
2:06colorblindness and we can disagree about
2:08how best to get there and those were
2:10quite considered to be quite radical
2:13activists in the past 50 years partly
2:17due to the influence of critical race
2:19Theory which was a conscious attack on
2:22color blindness a departure from the
2:25philosophy of the Civil Rights Movement
2:28even in its self-concept
2:30uh the influence of critical race Theory
2:32spread throughout the academy and
2:35throughout the wider
2:36culture um the influence of
2:38intellectuals and writers like Robin
2:41D'Angelo tanasi coats ibram kendi and
2:45others um all of whom take the basic
2:50thesis from critical race theory that
2:52colorblindness is not the way to go that
2:54it's naive it's a trojan horse for white
2:57supremacy uh and it's not up to the task
3:01of fighting
3:02racism uh this has become essentially
3:05the dominant view um on the left and
3:08among
3:10progressives and uh part of it is that
3:13color blindness is seen as ineffective
3:16the argument is that color blindness
3:18basically hasn't uh achieved anything in
3:21the past 50 years we still have racial
3:24inequality of outcome and therefore what
3:27we have to do is you inject race into
3:31every public policy State local and
3:34federal even this is the most extreme
3:36version that we need to distribute covid
3:40emergency aid to restaurants based on
3:42Aid we need to distribute uh antivirals
3:46based on Aid as uh as as was recommended
3:50by the governor of New York during covid
3:53so that's in a nutshell how it came to
3:56be that color blindness used to be
3:58agreed upon by everyone and now it's
4:01seen as the
4:02enemy and one thing that I was
4:05interested to learn from your book that
4:08the idea of color blindness goes back
4:10even farther it it was it has its roots
4:12in the Abolitionist Movement can you
4:14share a bit about that context I think
4:16that will be surprising to
4:18people yeah so there's a narrative
4:20that's emerged today that colorblindness
4:23is somehow a conservative idea uh the
4:27idea is that it came from the
4:29neoconservative think tanks in the
4:321970s people like Nathan Glazer uh
4:35Daniel Bell and so forth this is a total
4:39false history uh a rewriting of of the
4:42history of color blindness done by its
4:46enemies the truth of the matter is that
4:48the earliest mentions of color blindness
4:50that I'm aware of actually go back to
4:52the 19th century to Wendel Phillips
4:56Wendell Phillips was a staunch
4:59abolitionist he was a friend of William
5:02Lloyd
5:03Garrison um he actually took over the
5:06presidency of the um American
5:09anti-slavery
5:10Society from William Lloyd's Garrison
5:13because William Lloyd Garrison thought
5:16that basically the movement's mission
5:18was done once slavery was abolished but
5:21Phillips wanted to continue it until
5:24black people had full equal rights
5:25including voting rights so in other
5:28words this was a Man Too for William
5:30Lloyd Garrison one of the if not the
5:32most famous abolitionist in American
5:34history and the earliest mentions of the
5:37term color blindness come from him where
5:39he is proposing a 14th Amendment which
5:42hadn't yet been uh uh written uh he's
5:46proposing a 14th amendment that made the
5:48quote color government colorblind which
5:51is to say a government that cannot see
5:53or distinguish between different races
5:56of human
5:57beings uh and that's actually where
6:00color blindness comes from not from the
6:02conservative movement or the
6:04neoconservative movement but from the
6:06most radical abolitionists that wanted
6:09to go just go beyond simply abolishing
6:12slavery in the 1860s and
6:1570s now when you write about this topic
6:18and it it really Bears emphasis just how
6:22controversial this has become when you
6:24I've heard people say this and I've read
6:25read about it and we've talked about it
6:27in other episodes when people hear color
6:30blindness now as as an ideal or
6:32something to Aspire to they take it to
6:35mean that it's like a self- delusional
6:38position like you don't see color I just
6:40see people in some generic sense and
6:42what I take from your book is that
6:44that's that's not really what it's about
6:45it's about putting an individual's
6:48character as at the Forefront versus
6:51some unchosen feature of their identity
6:54and and in a sense it race or at least
6:57people's color or sort of cultural
6:59features those are real things but it's
7:01it's not the deciding factor about how
7:03we think about people is that resonant
7:05with how you view this yeah and I blame
7:09the misunderstanding in part on people
7:11on my side of the issue people say
7:14things like I don't see color
7:18and understandably that's a confusing
7:20phrase because you do see color right
7:22everyone who watches this video can see
7:24that I'm black um and and not white and
7:28not Asian so right so to say I don't see
7:32color inevitably you know people feel
7:35gaslit on the other side of the issue
7:36because you're claiming not to be able
7:38to see race you're claiming not to be
7:40able to to even be capable of racism
7:43which is I think also misleading and and
7:45the wrong approach I think whenever
7:48someone is tempted to say that I think
7:49they should instead say you know I try
7:51to treat people without regard to race I
7:54try my very best to treat my my friends
7:57my employees my colleagues with out
7:59regard to their race the point of
8:01colorblindness is not to pretend that
8:03you can't see race we all see race and
8:05we can we're all even capable uh of
8:08being biased uh just like we're capable
8:11of being selfish or capable of being you
8:13know any one of a any number of human
8:16flaws the point of color blindness is to
8:19see race but disregard it as a reason to
8:22treat anyone differently the idea is you
8:24notice that I'm black but you're not
8:26going to treat me like you're not going
8:28to treat me differently than you would
8:29any other guest on this show that's what
8:32color blindness means and that's what we
8:34have to find again if we're going to
8:37manage as a multi-racial
8:39democracy um for the next several
8:41hundred years we have to find that as
8:43our North Star we have to find that as
8:46the ethic to teach our children um if we
8:50want to encourage racial Harmony in this
8:53diverse and increasingly diverse
8:56Nation now a couple of things that come
8:58up in the book I I wanted to draw out
9:02one you and you said this earlier in the
9:04conversation that you you characterize
9:06the people who are opposing
9:08colorblindness or who tarnish its name
9:11they do it consciously or there's
9:12there's an agenda there and they
9:15characterize themselves somewhat
9:17confusingly for many people as
9:19anti-racists and in the book you come
9:22out really strongly crit criticizing
9:25that so how do you understand the
9:27individuals and intellectuals behind
9:29anti-racism how does that how do you
9:31differentiate yourself from that
9:35perspective uh there's
9:37this redefinition of racism that has
9:40been going on since the 60s but has
9:43gotten more and more popular which is to
9:45say that racism equals Prejudice plus
9:48power that's the second part of that
9:50that's important because the idea is
9:52that black people don't have power
9:54therefore black people and people of
9:56color in general can't be racist towards
9:58White people only white people can be
10:00racist towards um people of color now
10:04this is very convenient if you're a
10:05person of color because it lets you off
10:07the hook for anything heinous you may
10:11say or do to white people because it by
10:15definition can't be racist very
10:17convenient problem is that was not the
10:20definition of racism uh that Martin
10:23Luther King and by Rustin and civil
10:25rights leaders were fighting in fact I
10:28think Martin Lu King defined racism um
10:31in his final book where do we go from
10:33here as quote the doctrine of congenital
10:36inferiority of a
10:38people racism uh for for for Dr King he
10:42said multiple times that black Supremacy
10:44would be equally evil as white
10:46supremacy the version of racism that was
10:50fought uh in the March on Washington and
10:53at
10:54Selma was the idea that any group of
10:57people is congenitally
10:59inferior inferior to any other group of
11:03people that can go in any direction it
11:06can go from white people to black people
11:07black people to white people Asians to
11:09Hispanics Hispanics to Jews Etc it can
11:12go in any direction and we should fight
11:15it any direction that it goes we should
11:17not Define it such that only certain
11:19races of people can definitionally be
11:22racist to others now what's happened
11:25with the modern anti-racist movement the
11:28so-called anti- racist movement uh which
11:31um I I take aim at mostly because their
11:35their books have been the most popular
11:37examples of it um I take a aim at ibram
11:40kendi and Robin D'Angelo in
11:43particular um but they stand in for a
11:46larger way of thinking uh they stand in
11:50for an anti-racist movement that
11:54essentially claims to be a continuation
11:58of Martin Luther King but has completely
12:02changed the contents of the
12:04philosophy instead of defining racism as
12:08something that any group of people can
12:10point at any other group of people it
12:12defines racism as something only white
12:14people are capable of um
12:18and in doing so it allows not only for
12:22racist rhetoric against white people to
12:25be tolerated it allows for racist
12:28policies against white people to be
12:30tolerated in the name of anti-racism in
12:32the book I give many many
12:34examples um from Sarah Jong at the New
12:38York Times to uh a lady by the last name
12:42of Kilani at Yale who have just said
12:45basically the worst racist things you
12:47could possibly say about any group about
12:50white people um but you know nothing
12:54happens right there's no censure for
12:56them there's there's uh their
12:59institutions back them uh essentially I
13:02give examples in Chapter
13:043 of policies uh from emergency racial
13:08triage policies during covid to uh you
13:12know affirmative action and so on and so
13:15forth policies that openly discriminate
13:18against white people in the name of sort
13:20of balancing out history and uh rather
13:24than be called what they are which is
13:26racist by by any uh
13:29by the old definition let's say by the
13:31Martin Luther King definition they are
13:34called anti-racist so this is this the
13:37anti-racist movement uh it's it's not
13:40just not true it's the opposite of the
13:42truth it actually endorses racism it
13:44endorses racial stereotypes uh it
13:47endorses racial
13:49discrimination and it has cleverly
13:52rebranded itself as anti-racist and it's
13:55amazing it's like a it's it's like a
13:58company
13:59that keeps the label and just changes
14:02the product on the
14:05inside I I wanted to turn to what I I've
14:08been following your commentary on this
14:10and I saw that you were invited to speak
14:12at Ted uh last late last year it came
14:15out you had a talk on color
14:18blindness and I was surprised to see
14:20there what actually happened with that
14:22so there there was I think of it as a
14:23kind of Scandal but the reason I want to
14:25talk about it is it struck me as a kind
14:28of barometer or an indicator of the the
14:32State of Affairs or the way the openness
14:34to the idea of C blindness in the well
14:37rather the closed attitude that many
14:39people have to it so maybe you could
14:40give us sort of a thumbnail sketch of
14:42what
14:43happened with your experience at Ted and
14:45how do you think of
14:47it so if people want the long version
14:50they can look up my piece at the Free
14:52Press where I give the detailed blowby
14:55blow the short version is that I was
14:58invited
14:59to Ted to give a talk this past year on
15:02color blindness the topic of the book uh
15:05I gave the talk and there was a a a
15:10Swift and intense backlash among a small
15:13number of employees at Ted and those
15:17employees actually didn't want to
15:19publish my talk at all
15:22and what ended up happening is they
15:24ended up publishing my talk nominally
15:29uh on their website but uh intentionally
15:33under promoting uh my talks so that it
15:37had really a tiny fraction of the views
15:40of every other Ted talk to to an extent
15:43that it just was not plausible um uh
15:47they ended up essentially sandbagging
15:49the talk online because so many of their
15:52employees wanted
15:54to to thwart me
15:57essentially um and I went I went public
16:00about this um in the Free Press and what
16:04happened is is the there was a classic
16:07strand effect which is when you try to
16:10suppress something and that the fact you
16:13tried to suppress it comes out it ends
16:15up backfiring and more people end up
16:17seeing the thing than ever would have
16:19seen it um had you just treated it
16:23normally um and so uh that's what ended
16:26up happening and I think Ted ended up
16:29coming under a lot of warranted
16:32criticism for sort of claiming to be the
16:36space for open ideas um but suppressing
16:41a talk that about a a talk expressing a
16:45view that is widely held by Americans to
16:49be Pro colorblindness is not a fringe
16:51Viewpoint um you it you probably won't
16:54hear Democrats on the national level
16:57support it but if you actually poll
17:00Democrats uh it's it's still broadly
17:02popular among Democrats that's why a
17:05state like California can have a pleite
17:08two plebiscites in my lifetime about
17:11affirmative action both of which come
17:13out anti affirmative action in a blue
17:15State that's also highly diverse so uh
17:20the fact that Ted had such
17:23trouble uh sort of treating me fairly as
17:28a very nonf Fringe viewpoint on the race
17:31issue became a
17:33perfect indicator of how these Elite
17:37spaces like Ted Elite
17:39institutions have uh allowed themselves
17:43to enter a bubble where certain ideas
17:47are so controversial there that are
17:48actually widely held uh by the public
17:52and I think it also unintentionally
17:55because I I I truly have nothing against
17:57Ted as an organization
17:59um and I and I still don't but it I
18:02think it un it Unleashed a whole
18:05undercurrent of people that have been
18:06mad at Ted for years for for moving in a
18:10more woke for lack of a better word a
18:13more woke Direction and I
18:16think my going public about that story
18:19became kind of a lightning rod for pent
18:23up anger at Ted over the years and I
18:26think it became um big than I intended
18:29it to be as a
18:33result yeah and I I think one of the
18:35things you wrote about correct me if I'm
18:37misremembering this as part of having
18:39you on stage they they wanted to have
18:41someone come on and and there was
18:43another debate that was arranged as as a
18:45part of the deal to ensure this would
18:47happen and and all those seemed like
18:49those are either ad hoc or very unusual
18:51things for them to do in in trying to
18:54deal with your position fairly is that
18:56am I remembering that accurately yes the
18:59first idea was to attach a debate to the
19:03end of my TED Talk in one video and I
19:07didn't agree to this because I it was
19:10sending the signal and the message that
19:13my TED Talk can't be heard on its own my
19:15TED Talk has to be heard with the
19:17opposing Viewpoint uh and and it can't
19:20be taken down without a chaser so to
19:22speak and I thought that's precisely the
19:25wrong signal to send part of why I um
19:29wrote this book is is not just because
19:31I'm you know endlessly fascinated by the
19:34topic of race I'm actually quite bored
19:36by the topic of race uh because I don't
19:39think a person's race tells you much of
19:41anything about them part of why I wrote
19:44this book is because I want it to become
19:46more acceptable to have the Viewpoint
19:49that I have because I just I I know that
19:52there's a huge slice of people out there
19:54who essentially agree with My Philosophy
19:57about race
19:58live out the colorblind philosophy in
20:01their own lives with their friends and
20:03their family and so forth but just
20:05cannot talk about this publicly for fear
20:08of getting canceled so part of my
20:11project is not simply an
20:13academic fascination with the subject
20:16but also to try to make it more okay to
20:19talk about this subject and to say I try
20:22not to I try to treat people without
20:24regard to race and I want race out of my
20:26public policy if you want do public
20:28policy based on income if you want to
20:31help the poor sign me up I'm all for
20:34that but I'm not for judging people um
20:36on the basis of their skin color so I
20:38want to make that more acceptable to to
20:41that end it doesn't really serve me if
20:44I'm putting out this Ted Talk out there
20:45with a warning label like hey this is a
20:48super controversial idea swim at your
20:50own risk Etc so I didn't agree to that
20:53and eventually I did agree to a debate
20:55to be released two weeks after the Ted
20:57Talk was released and that's how I ended
20:59up we ended up finding a
21:02compromise I want to just pause for a
21:04moment and just ask you to uh to hear
21:07about your perspective on something I
21:08shared with you before the conversation
21:10to see one if you'd read it and two what
21:12your reactions to it are so my views on
21:14Race have been influenced significantly
21:17by John mccarter's work and others and
21:19one of the other influences on me and
21:21then the the Nam sake of our
21:22organization is Ein Rand part of what I
21:25get from Ein Rand is the perspective on
21:27the positive view of individuals as
21:30unique and valuing them individually not
21:33by any unchosen features and so on and I
21:36I was curious to see if she she wrote on
21:39the issue of racism when it was cresting
21:42in the public awareness in 1963 I shared
21:45that with you AB curious if you had any
21:46reactions to that any thoughts because
21:48my assumption was that there would be
21:49points of contact and and maybe some
21:51common ground on her analysis of racism
21:54and yours I'm curious your thoughts on
21:56that yeah I I actually hadn't read that
21:58essay by irand in 1963 until you sent it
22:01to me and I was fascinated by it for two
22:04reasons uh so first let me just say I
22:07think her her argument is um spoton her
22:11argument being
22:13that uh
22:14racism uh racism at the end of the day
22:17it is a rejection of individualism
22:19because you are by definition judging an
22:22individual by the traits or the
22:24perceived traits of their group no
22:28nobody chooses who they're born into uh
22:32nobody experiences being the average
22:35member of any group they belong to you
22:37only ever experience being the person
22:39you in fact are does me no good that the
22:42average man is 5 foot n I'm going to
22:45live my whole life 5 foot s that's how
22:47that works with respect to every every
22:50trait that we have um it doesn't matter
22:54what the average income of my race is I
22:57have the exact income I have and that's
22:59my
23:00reality um I have the exact intelligence
23:03I have the character I have and so forth
23:05and so to prejudge me based on what you
23:08think are the average or typical traits
23:11of my race is a rejection of the
23:12individual and Ein Rand as a staunch
23:15individualist took the took that strong
23:18position Against Racism and the first
23:21half of the essay she she's mostly
23:22talking about racism against blacks in
23:26particular it was Al interesting the
23:28second half of the essay she takes aim
23:30at the idea of affirmative action and
23:33quotas uh or Reverse Racism for the same
23:36exact reason and makes the point that
23:38you really can't make the first half of
23:40the argument without also rejecting the
23:44uh forms of discrimination against
23:47whites Asians Etc um or pro pro minority
23:52discrimination so she spot on in her
23:56argument two observations one it was
23:58very similar to zor Neil hurston's
24:01argument zor Neil huren is the the
24:04Beloved author of uh Their Eyes Were
24:07Watching God uh but in her
24:10Memoir she makes the point that uh both
24:13racial shame and racial Pride just make
24:16no sense because you know if you if you
24:20if if as a Jewish person you feel some
24:22pride because Einstein invented physics
24:26well you had nothing to do with that the
24:28fact you happen to belong to the same
24:30tribe as This brilliant person should
24:33not make you feel pride in fact it it
24:36smacks of a kind of substitute a cheap
24:38substitute for the things you might
24:41actually want to have pride in such as
24:43the achievements you've made as an
24:45individual by the same token to feel
24:48ashamed that certain members of your
24:50group behave badly uh makes no sense
24:53either because you've got no control
24:55over that um and and so so uh uh irran
25:00makes the ex the exact same point that
25:02zor Neil Hurston uh makes and then
25:06secondly I found it interesting she was
25:08making the arguments against quotas and
25:10against affirmative action as early as
25:121963 because most of the writing on that
25:16subject you know it's hard to find that
25:19many public intellectuals and writers
25:22opposing affirmative action that early
25:24uh because it hadn't even really been
25:26implemented yet uh at the at the federal
25:29level until the Nix the Nixon
25:31Administration really and so in a way
25:34she was she was sort of five to 10 years
25:37ahead of her time in making the argument
25:40against affirmative action and I thought
25:42that spoke very highly of
25:44her I I I mentioned before setting that
25:47up I mentioned John mcarter and another
25:49person whose work connected to race that
25:52I've been reowing closely is Glenn Lowry
25:55I'm sure you you You' I think I know
25:57youve talked to both of them one of the
25:59things I wanted to connect this to is
26:02I've been impressed with their work in
26:04trying to ascertain what is the state of
26:07racism today and I think in your book
26:09one of the things I appreciate about is
26:11you take great care to avoid overstating
26:14the problem which I think a lot of
26:15people do but also not understating the
26:17problem which I think is to speak
26:19candidly I think say 20 years ago my
26:22view was really I just didn't understand
26:24the state of racism as it actually was I
26:26think I was maybe had rose-colored
26:28glasses that it was better than it was
26:31and I My Views really changed over the
26:33years and one thing I've come to realiz
26:35is it's it's really hard to figure out
26:38where things actually stand and I'm
26:41curious how you think of it today what
26:43what compared to the kind of things we
26:45hear in a lot of the media that to
26:49America is just wall to- wall racist and
26:51that there's
26:52no there's no ground on which you cannot
26:55be racist versus what do you actually
26:58think is going on and and what are some
27:00of the distortive aspects of people's
27:03views that you see uh going on
27:06today yeah so that's a good question it
27:10is tough to measure empirically the
27:12amount of racism in society we've had
27:15polls going back a long time those polls
27:17show about 5 to 10% of Americans will
27:21agree with just outright racist
27:23statements um about black inferiority or
27:27you know I would I wouldn't want my kid
27:29to marry a black person Etc that's about
27:3210% 5 to 10% of the public will check
27:35check those boxes of just being you know
27:37straight up old school
27:39racists um at the same time there are a
27:42lot of people that don't believe any of
27:44that stuff or at least wouldn't cop to
27:46it on a poll but might discriminate in
27:49their private lives in in many different
27:51directions and that's why you have call
27:53back studies the the gold standard is to
27:57set send two identical resumés to the
28:00same person one with say a black
28:02sounding name one with a white sounding
28:04name one with a Chinese sounding name
28:06one with an Arab sounding name and see
28:08how many replies you get and what those
28:11what those um studies find and I cite
28:14the largest ever meta analysis of those
28:17studies in my
28:19book what it finds is that um there's
28:23slightly less racism in America than
28:25there is in Europe and the other thing
28:28they find is that you
28:30know whether you're talking about black
28:32people Indians Arabs or Chinese uh East
28:35Asian South Asian you broadly get
28:38between 20 and 40% less call backs um
28:44than you would get with with a wh
28:46sounding name now on its face that looks
28:49like a pretty significant dose of
28:53discrimination and it actually is
28:54there's a considerable amount of
28:56discrimination the the the subtlety
28:59which I think a lot of a lot of people
29:00are incapable of holding two ideas at
29:03once is that that discrimination is
29:06actually a very small determinant of a
29:09person's overall success compared to all
29:11of the other things that uh that
29:14determin success such as your level of
29:17skills your uh your human capital to use
29:21the economist term and the way we know
29:23that is because different groups that
29:26experience same the same amounts of
29:29Labor Market discrimination occupy
29:32totally different spots on the income
29:35Spectrum if you compare just you know
29:38compare indian-americans to Pakistani
29:40Americans there's a huge income gap yet
29:43an employer couldn't tell them apart you
29:45compare Chinese Americans to Hong
29:48Americans there's a huge income gap as
29:51well you compare different white ethnic
29:53groups compare uh Americans uh white
29:56Americans of Russian toen descent to
29:58white Americans of uh French descent
30:01there's a disparity of something close
30:02to 80 cents on the dollar you compare
30:05Nigerian Americans to Haitian Americans
30:08uh Nigerian Americans do better than the
30:10average American and so the fact that
30:13different groups that both experience
30:15the same levels of discrimination never
30:18nevertheless opposite uh occupy
30:20literally opposite polls on the income
30:24Spectrum from the highest quintile to
30:25the lowest suggests that dis racial
30:29discrimination is not a very powerful
30:33determinant of group outcomes because if
30:36it were we'd expect to find groups that
30:39experience lots of discrimination
30:41uniformly on the low end of the spectrum
30:43and that's the opposite of what we
30:46find I want to shift gear to talk about
30:49some of the arguments that you take on
30:52from the Neo rist as you call them the
30:54sort of intellectual Vanguard of that
30:56position
30:58and a couple things that really left out
31:00at me is that so you challenge the this
31:06conception of systemic racism that it's
31:09a complicated issue and I've heard
31:11different arguments about what might be
31:14what that concept might be pointing to
31:16I'm curious how you think of it and then
31:18relating that to the issue that you've
31:20brought up earlier which is that
31:23neoism or this anti-racists are actually
31:26a kind of racism and they're
31:28taking dominating cultural institutions
31:31so in a certain way the people who are
31:33claiming to fight racism are pushing it
31:35into really important institutions so
31:38Academia news media and and so forth so
31:41I'm curious to just understand a bit
31:42more how you see that as an influence
31:45today and then we can maybe we can come
31:47back to systemic racism if you
31:49want yeah so I guess two parts of that
31:51question one is systemic racism um
31:55systemic racism is a tricky subject
31:57it's rarely defined uh it's one of these
32:01phrases that people say over and over
32:04again uh and sometimes I suspect they
32:07don't even quite know what they're
32:09saying when they say it so the the
32:13original my at least my understanding
32:16the original idea of systemic racism
32:19comes from the book black power written
32:21in 1967 they called it institutional
32:24racism and they defined it as
32:28you know for example um a landlord that
32:32exploits you because you're black or a
32:35real estate agent that steers you to a
32:37different neighborhood because you're
32:39black um in other words what they meant
32:43by institutional racism was just
32:46racism that was nonviolent in other
32:48words it's not the KKK burning across on
32:51your lawn or lynching you it's just uh a
32:55human being being racist towards you in
32:59a perhaps subtle and nonviolent
33:01way over time that idea which is very
33:06easy to understand and there's lots of
33:08evidence to prove that that kind of
33:09thing does still
33:11happen
33:13um that has morphed into
33:16this this idea that racism is like a gas
33:20that just fills up the whole Space of
33:22the country even if you can never see it
33:26it's like a it's like carbon monoxide
33:27it's like a colorless odorless gas and
33:31you don't need to prove that it's there
33:32you just kind of know it's there and
33:34it's affecting
33:35everything um and what what it's
33:39functioned as is is a way of not having
33:43to actually prove that racial
33:46discrimination is the cause of some
33:48particular problem you can just sort of
33:51gesture at systemic racism um and
33:55say and and indict a whole
33:59institution the way that people end up
34:01doing this is is they'll basically just
34:03look at a gap they'll say look um black
34:07people are 133% of the population but
34:11you know 35 40% of people in prison that
34:16Gap is evidence of systemic
34:19racism uh now I I have a whole section
34:23of a chapter in the book dedicated to uh
34:27debunking this understanding of racism
34:30Thomas Soul has spent a whole career um
34:33proving why this way of thinking why
34:36gaps generally aren't caused by racism
34:40but are caused by other factors uh but
34:43systemic racism has basically become a
34:45synonym
34:46for black people are 133% of the
34:49population but not 133% of everything
34:52else and then to get to the second half
34:53of your question that becomes a way of
34:56just justifying policies that racially
34:59discriminate in favor of black people
35:02against white people sometimes against
35:04Asians sometimes against white Hispanics
35:06but sometimes for
35:09Hispanics um it becomes a justification
35:12for injecting racial discrimination into
35:16every Walk of Life In The Name of
35:19combating systemic racism so uh that's
35:22how the allegation of systemic racism
35:24actually leads to racially rigging every
35:29aspect of of society from from whether
35:33you get into college to whether you get
35:34a certain job in Corporate
35:37America I want
35:39to talk a bit about the issue of
35:42diversity which really has leapt into
35:45people's awareness lately and there was
35:48uh more more and more sensitivity to
35:51this issue of diversity Equity inclusion
35:53but just to bracket that and talk about
35:55diversity as something that has been
35:58seen as a value and in higher education
36:01so what how do you understand that issue
36:05are you do you favor it do you think
36:06it's confusing is there some position on
36:09it that could be salvaged from sort of
36:12the conventional
36:15perspective so if we're to talk about
36:19diversity and higher education
36:21specifically I think that there is value
36:24in meeting people who are not from where
36:27you're
36:28from um I don't think that that that may
36:32overlap with race but it's actually not
36:34the same thing as
36:36race um if I were to be College
36:38roommates with a black person from a
36:40totally different reality different part
36:42of the country an Ethiopian let's
36:46say um that would be an ex that could at
36:50least be an experience of enriching
36:52diversity with even though we're of the
36:54same race um So to that extent I'm a I'm
36:59a xenophile I like to travel I like to
37:01meet people from different backgrounds I
37:03think that that that enriches life
37:07um
37:09but col a higher education has to decide
37:12what it's actually about because on the
37:14one hand it says it's about
37:16diversity uh on the other hand it has
37:21black only all of these colleges H uh
37:24Elite colleges have black only dorms a
37:27lot of them have options of black only
37:31graduations um they essentially allow
37:35you
37:36to get on campus as a freshman and live
37:40your life in as much of a black
37:43only experience is possible so how does
37:47it work is it that a white person a
37:50white student is enriched by being
37:54around Black and Hispanic and Asian
37:56students but a black student is is hurt
37:59by being around white students so they
38:01should be able to sequester themselves
38:03for four years in a black only student
38:05dorm and a safe space this doesn't make
38:08any sense I've known um many many
38:13members of my family many people have
38:15actually gone to uh historically black
38:18colleges and universities like Howard
38:20and Spellman and so forth um many of
38:23them have very good experiences in an
38:25environment that is not diverse at all
38:28so one question I have is is diversity a
38:31value for white people but not for uh
38:34non-whites and how does how does that
38:37work um more broadly if we're going to
38:40talk about diversity in the
38:42workplace um if I'm gonna hire someone
38:45to run my podcast I don't care what race
38:47that person is I'm trying to get the
38:48best person for the
38:50job uh most jobs benefit from getting
38:54the most competent people and not paying
38:57attention to what race they are now I
38:59would Grant there are some jobs where
39:01you need a racially diverse Workforce in
39:05order to do the job for example if the
39:08NYPD were all white that would be a huge
39:12problem because the police need to be
39:14viewed as legitimate by the community
39:17and if the community sees a bunch of
39:19white guys um it's going to be actually
39:22harder for the police to do their job
39:24but I would argue most jobs are much
39:27more like firefighting than they are
39:29like policing if if you're hiring a
39:31firefighter you just want to get the
39:33most competent people from the job it
39:34doesn't matter what they look like the
39:36fires don't care I think most jobs are
39:40more like firefighting than policing in
39:42that they don't rely on the perceived
39:44legitimacy of the community necessarily
39:46in order to do their jobs and so I think
39:49it's a legitimate um legitimate right of
39:52employers to
39:55think pretty uniquely and solitarily
39:58about competence and not about um racial
40:05diversity in the time we have remaining
40:08I want to be conscious of your schedule
40:10a couple more questions and I'm going to
40:12read something to you from the book that
40:14resonated with me really strongly I
40:17maybe you can help us understand help
40:20the audience understand where you're
40:21coming from on this so you you have
40:22something you call the Forgiveness
40:25treadmill
40:26I'm going to read back some of your
40:28words to you quote sometimes the ability
40:30to continue demanding the apology is
40:33worth more than the apology itself
40:36sometimes the debt is worth more unpaid
40:39than paid close quote I thought that was
40:41really insightful I'm curious how you
40:44think of that and just maybe you could
40:45give us the context around which that
40:46arises in your thinking about this
40:50issue yeah so there's
40:53um there's a long-standing trend among
40:57socalled
40:59anti-racist
41:00thinkers to say that uh America doesn't
41:03care about its past America doesn't want
41:06to atone for slavery America doesn't
41:08even want to educate people about
41:11slavery
41:12um um America has never issued an
41:15apology for
41:17slavery America hasn't done anything
41:19really by by way of atonement or
41:24reparations now let's actually look at
41:26the record in 2004 the Senate officially
41:31apologized for lynching in 2008 and
41:352009 uh both houses of Congress
41:38individually apologized for slavery in
41:40Jim
41:41Crow uh at least nine or 10 different
41:45individual states have issued formal
41:47apologies for
41:49slavery uh we have um a museum in
41:54Washington DC Smithsonian Museum Museum
41:57African-American history museum that
42:00opened I believe in
42:022016 with an
42:05extensive exhibit on slavery in the
42:08Middle Passage and they actually had to
42:12uh they had to keep people out because
42:13it was overflowing with
42:16interest um the idea that we don't care
42:20about our past is completely out of step
42:24with the evidence even affirmative
42:27which has been justified in the name of
42:28diversity for most of its lifetime
42:31originally in the 60s often went by the
42:34name compensatory Justice because it was
42:37not about diversity at that time it was
42:38about compensating black Americans for
42:42past
42:44discrimination
42:46so it's not that America hasn't done
42:51anything in the spirit of reparations is
42:54that everything that has been done is
42:57immediately forgotten the moment that
42:59it's done now why is that if someone is
43:02demanding in good faith that you make an
43:06apology and then you make the apology
43:09and then they have amnesia the next the
43:11next day and keep Shifting the
43:15goalposts um or conveniently forget that
43:17the apology was
43:19made you have to understand that they
43:23don't actually want the apology that
43:25what they want
43:26is the power that comes from the fact
43:30that you haven't apologized or let's say
43:33the power that comes from the perception
43:34you haven't apologized the power that
43:37comes from the perception that there is
43:39still a debt
43:41owed if if we were to actual actually
43:44pay reparations for slavery to every um
43:47every black person every black
43:49descendant of slaves I can guarantee you
43:53within a week you would be seeing op-eds
43:56in the New York Times talking about how
43:58actually that that wasn't enough at all
44:01um and how dare you think you could pay
44:04off the debt of slavery with a single
44:05check the goalpost would be moved
44:08automatically you could actually see
44:10this uh in microcosm in the election of
44:13Barack Obama leading up to it everyone
44:17almost everyone said there is no way a
44:20black president named Barack Hussein
44:23Obama can get elected in this country
44:25why because we're too racist we're not
44:27ready for that yet boom he gets elected
44:30two terms and within almost within
44:34moments of the election the same
44:37intellectual class that said he couldn't
44:41get elected because that would be
44:42evidence we've moved further than we
44:44have said actually don't you think that
44:47this means don't go thinking this means
44:49anything we're still just as racist as
44:51we were yesterday we haven't made any
44:54progress um and so so essentially they
44:57just pocket the gain that uh was made to
45:02look impossible two seconds ago and
45:04shift the goal poost you also saw this
45:07happen with um I'm going on Long on this
45:09but it's it's important to realize what
45:11that a game is being played you also saw
45:13this happen with the federal holiday
45:16juneth there was a USA Today article in
45:21uh sometime in 2020 I think which argued
45:24we should make juneth federal holiday I
45:27I agreed with this I think it absolutely
45:29makes sense to have a Federal holiday
45:31celebrating the end of slavery it's one
45:33of the most important uh moments in
45:36American
45:37history however the article said it's
45:40going to be super hard for us to pass
45:42this presumably because there's so much
45:44resistance to historical soul searching
45:47in this country right fast forward a few
45:50months the uh the the the bill to make
45:54juneth a federal holiday Hol breezes
45:56through Congress with almost no
45:58opposition we've been now SE celebrating
46:00juneth for 3
46:03years no one will ever remember that it
46:05was considered at one point to be um a a
46:10difficult proposition right because the
46:13moment something is done acknowledging
46:15slavery uh as a as a concession or
46:18validation to the demands being made
46:20it's instantly forgotten that's not a
46:23real goodfaith exch
46:26that's a game and so people have to
46:28realize that this game this is the game
46:30that's being played with reparations and
46:33every related
46:35issue col I couple of last thoughts I
46:38want to put before you one is in one of
46:42your articles it might be in the book
46:44I'm I'm not remember exactly you say uh
46:46you call Race a nefarious concept and I
46:50wanted to see what you think of it and
46:53in connection with the work I don't know
46:55if maybe you've read his work Thomas
46:57Chatterton Williams has a really
46:58powerful book about his experiences as a
47:01father and the thrust of that book is as
47:05I took it is it's time to move away from
47:07this concept it's not helpful it's
47:09actually more divisive Than People
47:11realize I'm curious your view of it so
47:14you call it nefarious do you are you in
47:17line with the view that he's putting
47:19forward that it's better to move away
47:21from it maybe think of another way to
47:23think of ourselves in other terms more
47:26maybe as individuals rather than members
47:29of races I just wanted to sound you out
47:31on that perspective if you're familiar
47:33with it yeah Thomas is a brilliant
47:36writer who I broadly agree with um our
47:40friend Camille Foster goes even further
47:43and actually he does not refer to
47:45himself as black he refers to himself as
47:49you know Camille or if you want to call
47:51him ethnically Jamaican that would be he
47:53would be fine with that and as a human
47:56being but he does not identify as black
47:59he'll correct you if he's called
48:01black um my approach to it has been that
48:05you know
48:06I'm the convention of of the time I'm
48:10born into is that I'd be refer to as
48:12half black half Hispanic um or half
48:15Puerto Rican if you
48:17prefer or afro Latino if you prefer
48:20these these labels don't mean very much
48:24to me
48:26uh I don't think they say anything
48:27deeper about who I am other than where
48:31the majority of my ancestors used to
48:34live and I'm fine for people to use
48:38these labels so long as they understand
48:40that they don't mean anything right they
48:42they don't mean anything deep about a
48:45person's identity about their beliefs
48:48about their character about their
48:50values as long as we understand that
48:52they're superficial I'm fine for them to
48:55be
48:56used uh
48:58but the problem is people people believe
49:01that they stand in for deeper character
49:04traits right Robin D'Angelo in her book
49:07she writes that um she strives to be
49:11less
49:12white what does it mean to try to be
49:14less
49:16white It could only mean anything if you
49:18think that whiteness is a standin for
49:20character traits and she goes on to list
49:23the character traits she has in mind
49:26striving to be less white means striving
49:28to be less ignorant for example she
49:31says um these are pernicious ideas any
49:34idea which
49:35equates race with a a character
49:39trait is is uh that those are the ideas
49:43that we have
49:45to that we have to uh get
49:48past um so broadly I do think that race
49:54it's inherently divisive but that
49:56divisiveness wouldn't be a problem if
49:59people didn't invest it with deeper
50:00meaning if people just viewed it uh the
50:03point Sam Harris makes if if people just
50:05viewed it as similar to hair
50:08color well hair color is in in theory
50:11could be divisive but it's just that
50:12everyone knows that it doesn't mean
50:14anything whether you're blonde brunette
50:16whether you have black hair whether you
50:18have red hair Etc so it's it's the mere
50:23fact of categorization I suppose is not
50:25really the problem it's the investment
50:27people makeing
50:28it so I wanted to close out the
50:32conversation by asking you to give us in
50:35in a nutshell your vision for a way
50:37forward so if the arguments for color
50:39blindness that you're putting forward
50:41the space you're creating for people to
50:43advocate for this and to to hold these
50:46views what is what are some of the key
50:48things you want to see happen what would
50:50you encourage people to do to move us
50:54forward well first first I would
50:55encourage you to to redouble or find
50:59your commitment to color blindness in
51:01your own life um that is with your
51:04friends and family um and in your
51:07own
51:09beliefs and uh I think there are there
51:13are also things that we can do at at the
51:15at the level of policy to
51:18minimize and uh get rid of many of the
51:22racial triaging that we have um Richard
51:26hanania has a book where he makes a
51:28recent book where he makes many
51:29recommendations about how to get race
51:32out of uh the essentially the
51:36the the the system of federal race
51:41triage that we have that's developed
51:43over the past 50 years some of that has
51:45to do with executive orders that can be
51:48reversed um others uh others of that has
51:51has to do with um you know the Supreme
51:54Court
51:56um I think overturning affirmative
51:58action was a great
52:01choice and and so there's there's lots
52:03of things that can be done on the public
52:05policy front
52:06to undo to a large extent the the system
52:13of sort of mandated racial
52:15discrimination that has slowly taken
52:17hold over the past 50 years mostly
52:20through
52:22bureaucracies uh the federal bureaucracy
52:25and um and and and judicial decisions
52:29than through actual law most of it's
52:31happened through undemocratic means and
52:35it can therefore in principle be undone
52:37through those same means uh but also we
52:40need a wider cultural change we need
52:42more people to become confident enough
52:45to say in public I Am pro colorblindness
52:49I try to treat people without regard to
52:51race and I don't want race anywhere in
52:54my public public policy I don't want to
52:56be enshrining racial
52:58discrimination um in my public policy
53:01and I don't want to vote for it I don't
53:02want to stand for it so we
53:05need I guess I would say three levels
53:08one is the personal level of your own
53:09life one is at the level of you know
53:14executive orders bureaucratic decisions
53:18uh and so forth and one is at the level
53:19of the
53:21culture well Coleman Hughes it's been a
53:23pleasure talking to you and I appreciate
53:25the book I I thoroughly enjoyed reading
53:27it I learned a lot the end of race
53:29politics Arguments for a colorblind
53:32America I I wish you well with
53:35that thanks very
53:52much

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