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International Cooperation: The Global Diaspora Agenda — Transcript

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27:48I'm Astri Zakan, a moderator,
27:50interviewer, journalist, whatnot. We
27:54start
27:55um within the understanding of
27:58traditional Armenian punctuality, which
28:00is about 20 to half an hour later than
28:03the actual time set. Um, it's a great
28:07honor to be moderating the panel on
28:10international cooperation. I'd like to
28:12introduce our honorable speakers to the
28:16stage um and invite them to the stage.
28:19the high commissioner for diaspora
28:21affairs of the republic of Armenia.
28:23Zarinan
28:26[applause]
28:32Roselene Kasuren Jorgu I hope I did a
28:35good job on that. approximate um
28:38principal secretary for the state
28:39department for diaspora affairs within
28:41Kenya's Ministry of Foreign and Diaspora
28:44Affairs [applause]
28:50and Martin Russell the co-founder of
28:53Diaspora Institute.
28:55[applause]
29:03I'd like to start by setting out the
29:05purpose of the panel which if I got it
29:08right is to align state and diaspora
29:12agenda. Correct me if I'm wrong.
29:16Mr. Sanan, you have the floor.
29:21>> Yes, thank you. Um thank you uh to all
29:24my distinguished co- panelists for being
29:27here. uh that is uh I think one of the
29:30purposes of the panel also and we were
29:33just having a conversation uh this panel
29:36is interesting in the sense that we all
29:38deal with diasporan issues and our
29:41diaspora issues are quite different from
29:44one another uh we're in different stages
29:46of the development of our policies and
29:50approaches to the diaspora and uh I
29:54think it'll make this conversation very
29:56interesting
29:57I can elaborate a little more. For
29:59example, we've had our very dear Greek
30:02and Criate counterparts on panels in on
30:05previous occasions and and and through
30:07our continuous work with our uh Greek
30:10and Criate uh colleagues, we find our
30:13issues to be very similar. And when I
30:15when I go to for example the the
30:18cypriate world summits uh it's very
30:21interesting the how the dynamics align
30:24with uh the things that are happening
30:26between Armenia and its own diaspora.
30:28But as uh we started working also with
30:31our Kenyan counterparts. I had the
30:33pleasure of being in Nairobi just months
30:36ago and uh we signed an MOU that we
30:39worked on our foreign ministries worked
30:41on for a while and I I was fascinated to
30:44hear how they work with their diaspora
30:46what their issues are and how different
30:48they are. So uh we have a lot to learn
30:50from from our Kenyan counterparts and
30:52and we look forward to working together
30:54and of course Dr. Russell brings in a
30:58wealth of knowledge and expertise on how
31:01probably the most unique uh diaspora in
31:04the world. I mean, they're all unique,
31:06but the Irish diaspora is fascinating
31:08because when we as Armenians, we think,
31:10"Oh my god, you know, the 3 million
31:11Armenians living in Armenia and there's
31:147 to 10 million Armenians throughout the
31:16world." Well, try to be Irish when the
31:18the population of Ireland is, correct
31:21me, around 4 million, 4 and a.5 million,
31:23uh, 5 million, but there are in excess
31:26of what 100 100 million Irish throughout
31:28the world through the through the
31:30Western world basically and, uh, of
31:32course Australia. So,
31:35We have a lot to talk about. Thank you
31:38>> excellency.
31:40Um what is your experience of aligning
31:44Kenya's diaspora and the state or is
31:48this even something that should be done?
31:50Because in and of itself the diaspora is
31:53facing its own um challenges like the
31:57preservation of identity. The state is
32:00looking at different matters starting
32:04with security. How involved should the
32:05diaspora be, right?
32:07>> And um
32:10how should we formulate an equation
32:13of cooperation that works for both,
32:18>> right? So, thank you so much for for
32:20that and um thank you for convening this
32:24fantastic conversation around global
32:27diasporas but also for inviting us to
32:29this uh wonderful event here at the
32:31global um Armenian summit. Um
32:36you ask perhaps a fundamental question
32:39around what the role of the state is um
32:42visa v its diaspora. Kenya views its
32:46diaspora as a strategic partner. Um, and
32:50we think many countries do view their
32:52diasporas as a strategic partner. A
32:54strategic partner in development, um, in
32:56nation building, in skills, knowledge
32:59and technology transfer and in many many
33:01ways. Um, in the last few years, Kenya
33:06has gone from thinking about its
33:07diaspora in this unstructured way into
33:11calling home and thinking about our
33:14diaspora as a critical development or
33:17nation building partner.
33:20In 2022,
33:22the this administration created the
33:24state department for diaspora affairs
33:25which I lead. And uh what that did was
33:29basically to structure uh Kenya's
33:33response and engagement to its diaspora.
33:35Understanding that the diaspora is a
33:37critical partner and looking to
33:39structure that arrangement in ways that
33:41make sense. Understanding that um every
33:44Kenyan who lives abroad has rights has
33:48um expectations of the state as far as
33:52uh protection of their welfare is
33:53concerned uh their rights to vote. um uh
33:58the expectation that they are
33:59mainstreamed into the uh process of
34:02nation building and so on. So to answer
34:05your question um or to attempt to answer
34:08your question is to say that the state
34:11in Kenya views the diaspora as a
34:13strategic partner who should be engaged
34:15um and who should be spoken to in a
34:18structured fashion and understanding
34:20that the diaspora do want to be involved
34:22and want to be a part of nation
34:23building. And so this is the posture
34:25that Kenya has taken as far as our
34:27diaspora is concerned.
34:28>> Um I have to do a followup. I have to
34:30ask a follow-up question. It's going to
34:32get a little costic but Mr. I'm sorry
34:35about that. If you invite a journalist
34:36to do your panel then that should be
34:39expected. We hear sometimes especially
34:41in the past from our diaspora members
34:43that they're being looked at as an ATM
34:47or a money bank to cash out. Um now what
34:51I see with our authorities the approach
34:52is changing and that's understandable
34:55because we find we need the human
34:56resources more than we need the finances
34:59because if you've got the right human
35:01resource the finances will follow and if
35:04they do the right thing the finances
35:05will follow. Do you receive the same
35:07complaints? I think I think the question
35:10or the idea that diasporas are remters
35:15um or ATMs or people who send money home
35:18first before they are people is an idea
35:21that you will find everywhere in the
35:23world. And I think diasporas around the
35:25world feel taken lightly or feel
35:29offended at the idea that people see
35:31them first as people who send money
35:33home. Um but you also have to have an
35:36honest conversation about what the
35:39development um of every country is and
35:43what role the diaspora are playing in
35:45that development. I'll give you some
35:47quick numbers. Um in Kenya for example
35:52the diaspora remittances in the last few
35:54years in the last 3 years have grown by
35:5725%.
35:59um Kenyan diaspora sent home sent home
36:02last year 5 billion US that's up from4
36:06billion US in 2022 it's a significant
36:09number in the sense that it is about
36:11three and a half% of our GDP so diaspora
36:15are sending home a significant amount of
36:18money every year
36:19>> did you hear that
36:20>> yeah so and that number is growing now
36:24um if you look at the entire continent
36:26of Africa what diasporas what African
36:30diaspora send home is much higher than
36:33official development assistance.
36:36So that is to say that Africans living
36:38outside of Africa send home more money
36:42than development partners and you know
36:44all of the large actors send home.
36:46Diaspora has therefore become a
36:47decolonizing force right because if you
36:50can send home more money than the people
36:53who usually send development assistance
36:55and so on home you become something
36:57critical. Now understanding that role
37:01that you are indeed sending money
37:04sometimes in small ticket numbers,
37:06sending a lot of money home but also you
37:08have a voice in certain places uh in
37:12Kenya for example diaspora can vote uh
37:14can vote for the presidency. Not only
37:17are you able to influence what's
37:18happening at home using your money,
37:21you're also able to vote. you have
37:24diaspora engagement where you can sit
37:26down like I saw um I believe it was
37:28yesterday with the prime minister here
37:30speaking with the diaspora and you know
37:32when you said that uh the issues in
37:34diaspora are different they're also
37:35quite the same because some of the
37:37issues that I saw the diaspora raising
37:39with your prime minister are the very
37:41same issues I see our diaspora raising
37:43with the president whenever he speaks
37:45right so you know why aren't you funding
37:46diaspora affairs a little more um why
37:49does it take so long to get government
37:50papers and that kind of thing so some of
37:52these things are similar just so let me
37:55let me quickly wrap up by saying that
37:58diasporas are not just remitterters
38:00they're not just people who send money
38:02home but that is important the money
38:05that they send home is important it
38:06feeds people it takes care of health
38:08care it supports economies and it's very
38:11important and resilient cash flows but
38:14indeed we do want to see their skill we
38:17want to see their ideas we want to see
38:19the technology transfer um and we want
38:22to have their involvement in nation
38:24building.
38:26You've
38:28[applause]
38:32you've uncovered so many layers. I could
38:34ask just you know 10 questions based on
38:37what you just said like for example do
38:39they have citizenship or not those who
38:41vote etc. So a lot to talk about but
38:44before we do that I think we're going to
38:45get some questions from your audience as
38:47well pretty soon. Uh let's pass on to
38:49Mr. Russell. What's your equation? I
38:53assume you have been um consulting
38:56governments and diasporas and bringing
38:59them together and aligning them for
39:02bigger impact.
39:05What's your experience of what makes a
39:07great cooperation between a nation no
39:11matter how it's branched out and how and
39:14where it's dispersed?
39:16>> Perfect. First of all, good afternoon
39:18everybody.
39:20We can do better than that. Good
39:21afternoon everybody. [applause]
39:26So you you made a very dangerous
39:28decision. You given an Irish person a
39:30microphone on diaspora. We could we
39:32could be here for three months. So I
39:34have a good friend sitting in the
39:35audience Vasin and I was here a couple
39:36of weeks ago at a conference and I
39:38opened with a story and I think I I
39:40should say the same to the room today
39:42because I can see you already looking
39:44saying this guy has a strong Irish
39:45accent. All right. So I told a story
39:48about when I was a young student and I
39:51submitted my first piece of writing to
39:52my PhD professor and he looked at it and
39:55he looked up at me and he said, "Martin,
39:58you have to take this as a compliment,
40:00but you sound better in print."
40:04So look, I'll speak a bit more slowly if
40:06I can, but I get excited when I talk
40:08about the topic. And and look to your
40:09question specifically,
40:12why is it so timely that we're having
40:13this conversation not just for Armenia
40:15or Kenya or Ireland?
40:18The simple reality is that the world in
40:20which we live in, the networks of power
40:22that will determine our future are
40:24shifting underneath our feet. We are now
40:27living in a world where there was a
40:30professor at Stanford at Princeton many
40:32years ago, professor Anmarie Slaughter
40:34where she talked about the
40:35reconfiguration of power in the network
40:37age and she said the measure of your
40:40power in the 21st century will be your
40:42connectedness. And when you begin to
40:44think whether you're a company, a
40:46country, an institution, a nonprofit,
40:49and you think about the change that
40:50we're seeing in the world, and you ask
40:52yourself a simple question, but an
40:54honest question,
40:56who are the the communities, and what
40:58are the capitals of consistency that we
41:01can rely on to articulate our progress,
41:04build our progress, and tell that story
41:06to the world. I think one of the
41:08greatest assets any country has is its
41:10people abroad. And people abroad does
41:13not be limited to citizens abroad. I'm a
41:15big believer that and this comes to your
41:17question about what makes it magical and
41:18what makes it makes us strong. If people
41:20ask me to define the power of diaspora,
41:23I talk about the power of belonging. And
41:26we're living in a world where belonging
41:28authentic belonging is in short supply.
41:30And I think if governments particularly
41:32through the office of the high
41:33commissioner or different institutional
41:35apparatus can be begin to build those
41:38networks and the communities and we've
41:40heard this already over the last couple
41:41of days. I was in an incredible session
41:43yesterday where I heard about from a
41:45young entrepreneur that's working in the
41:47wine industry and she said we need to
41:48think about the distinction between the
41:50community abroad and the networks we
41:52have abroad. very subtle but very
41:54different types of diaspora engagement
41:56and to what makes it happen and what
41:58makes it strong or magical depends on
42:01the entry point that you're coming from.
42:02If if if I'm working with government the
42:05one thing I would say is that to make
42:07diaspora engagement flourish the
42:09countries that have done this well and
42:11prospered and benefited the most have
42:14made a very simple decision. They have
42:17decided to put it front and center of
42:19their domestic and foreign policy.
42:23Traditionally, governments would see
42:24diaspora engagement just as foreign
42:26policy. But when you begin to think
42:27about the impact that the Armenian
42:29diaspora in this room want to have back
42:31in Armenia, it's going to cut across
42:33domestic portfolio as well. And I'll
42:35close with this as well. Governments
42:37cannot do it all.
42:39Sometimes governments need help. And
42:41Rosalene opened up this question as well
42:43when she spoke about what is the role of
42:46the state. The role of the government
42:47tends to blend between being implement
42:51facilitator. The government can help
42:53implement legislation, policy, put in
42:55place quality people, infrastructure,
42:58but also they can be facilitator.
43:00There's a time when they know to take a
43:02step back and let the diaspora create
43:04and engage. So I'll close with that
43:06reflection in the sense of putting it
43:08front and center of your domestic and
43:09foreign policy. I think really investing
43:11in your diplomatic core is is is an
43:14urgent necessity in today's world. But
43:16also I think and this is a challenge I'd
43:18put out to the diaspora. Understand
43:21we're just passing through and think
43:23about the leadership you want to leave
43:24in your community. And also don't wait
43:27for permission. Some of my best friends
43:29are in the diaspora and they go and
43:31build and sometimes it can drive change
43:33back home. And I'll close maybe with a
43:35reflection from the African context. I
43:37was lucky to help an organization called
43:39the African Diaspora Network in Silicon
43:41Valley. The chair of that board is the
43:43former CTO of Johnson and Johnson. He
43:45doesn't wait for commission. He goes and
43:47he goes and does stuff, you know. So, I
43:49just wanted to give you that sense of
43:50it's government, it's industry, it's
43:52nonprofit. But I hope that helps.
43:56[applause]
44:01Um, Mr. Sananian back to the Armenian
44:04diaspora and it's and the specific
44:06issues we're facing. Um I have the
44:09impression that we're dragging the cart
44:11in different directions.
44:14So what would you say is your vision? Uh
44:18what is your message to the diaspora?
44:20Where should we be dragging the cart to?
44:25If I may, I'll bring an example. I have
44:28a lot of friends among the diaspora
44:30members. Some are totally able to pull
44:33the strings where necessary. For
44:35example, for the US administration to
44:37weigh in so we can get a, you know,
44:40quicker peace agreement finalized, etc.
44:43What they do is, for example, they
44:45choose to plant 10 million trees in
44:47Armenia. Great initiative, absolutely.
44:50Security wise, is this a priority? Of
44:53course it is. I would assume if it were
44:55to the Armenian government, they would
44:57choose security over the trees. So this
45:01is what I mean when I say we are kind of
45:03dragging the cart in different
45:05directions. Um where are you looking?
45:09What is your vision that both the
45:12diaspora and the state in your opinion
45:14should be working towards?
45:17>> Um interesting question. I I have to
45:20disagree that we're driving the cars in
45:23different directions because
45:26if the Armenian statethoods
45:30goal or or the current government's goal
45:33is to
45:35the end goal the sort of where where
45:37we're driving the car is a prosperous
45:41Armenia, a peaceful Armenia, a secure
45:44Armenia where the citizens who live
45:49there want to have dignified lives where
45:52they can have a future where they they
45:54can build the future of their children
45:56and for the longevity of Armenia. I
46:00can't think that the diasporans are
46:02driving in the other direction. So
46:04therefore, they want the destruction of
46:06Armenia. They want the collapse of
46:08Armenia. They want war and endless
46:10suffering and migration and misery. I
46:14can't believe that's the case. So let's
46:16let's agree that we're not driving in
46:18different directions,
46:20but we do have different understandings
46:24of what the road ahead entails.
46:29We are on the road. We are literally on
46:31the road driving the car. And then we
46:34sort of have another entity that is part
46:37of us that is not on that road, but they
46:40want to be on the road, but they wanted
46:42the car to travel at a different speed
46:44or through a different route. And what
46:47we're trying to communicate is that
46:50we are on that road, but the the route
46:54is cloudy. Even for us, it's there's a
46:57lot of fog
47:00and some of that fog is fog of war. And
47:04what we're trying to do is get to the
47:07end. And therefore, we have to take a
47:09detour. We have to go right at some
47:12points and not left. And from our
47:16perspective,
47:18that's like 1 + 1 equals 2. It's
47:20aiomatic. It's just true.
47:24And from the diaspora's perspective,
47:25because they're not on that road, that
47:28may not be true. And our goal is to
47:31convey to the diaspora
47:34that what we're doing is not meant to be
47:37some nefarious purpose or some nefarious
47:40goal of doing something wrong. No, we
47:42live, you have to remember the people in
47:45Armenia live here. So the ultimate
47:48outcome is going to impact us first.
47:52And it's not going to impact us
47:54psychologically, morally, it's going to
47:56impact us physically. And that has to be
48:00appreciated by the diaspora. And what
48:02we're saying look in this road in our,
48:05you know, efforts to
48:08um
48:10overcome these hurdles. You have a role
48:13to play. You can really help us out and
48:15perhaps we can travel the road together
48:17in the same car. By the way, it's called
48:19repatriation. Or you can help us fuel
48:23the car. That's called investments. Or
48:26you can help us uh fix and make the car
48:29better. That's called, you know, using
48:31your intellectual capabilities, your
48:32professional skills, your experience,
48:35opening the doors, which Dr. Russell
48:38alluded to, and they've done a fantastic
48:40job of it. And I'm sure you'll talk
48:42about that in more details. and we can
48:45get to that ultimate goal which I
48:47believe is the same for all of us much
48:49faster, much safer and we can rejoice. I
48:53think that's where that's where the
48:55dissonance is. So it's it's never about
48:59wanting different things. We want the
49:01same thing. We just have different
49:04conceptions of what that means and how
49:06to get there.
49:10[applause]
49:16Excellency, what's the lubricant
49:20um for the mechanism that as you put it
49:24um it functions smoothly from what I
49:26gathered
49:28um what's the lubricate for the
49:30mechanism of the diaspora and Kenya
49:34local community cooperation
49:38I'd say trust
49:40trust it is in short supply everywhere
49:44but I think most diasporas not just
49:47Kenyan diaspora but most anybody who has
49:51my job bazar's job knows that the thing
49:54that uh is
49:57in short supply and desperately needed
49:59is that idea of trust that our citizens
50:03living abroad can trust that we are
50:05acting in the best interest of Kenya or
50:09the their best interests. Um and that we
50:11can trust that they have not suddenly
50:15become dissident and acting in um in the
50:18in um not in the best interest of Kenya.
50:21So trust is in short supply. But trust
50:24is also one of those things that is
50:28is critical when
50:30my experience
50:33diasporas tend to be some of the most um
50:37I realize the room is full of diaspora.
50:39So I'm trying to be very careful.
50:43It is difficult for people to believe
50:46often that you're acting in their best
50:48interest. You've talked about the idea
50:49that we're trying to convince you that
50:51we're not acting. We don't have
50:52nefarious motives to injure you and so
50:56on. But trust is critical and the work
50:59of building trust
51:02I think begins with government. We have
51:04to work hard to get our citizens to
51:08believe that indeed what we say is what
51:11we do and we are interested in your in
51:14our relationship with you.
51:16Um we've done that in some very simple
51:19ways.
51:21When uh when we set up the department in
51:242022, one of the things that Kenya's
51:27diaspora asked for the most is when we
51:30go to the embassy and we want to get our
51:32passports or we want to get our national
51:34ID, birth certificate, whatever
51:35government documents, we want it to
51:37happen quickly.
51:39All right, it is taking too long to get
51:41a new passport. is taking too long to um
51:44get my dual citizenship or whatever. We
51:48set out what was a fairly expensive
51:50program, but it still runs called the
51:52mobile consular services, which is
51:54basically if you are um in uh um um in
52:00Ireland and uh you don't have to go to
52:03our embassy in Dublin. Every so often we
52:06will do a trip around the country and
52:08when we come to your city you can come
52:11and get your services there. Then we did
52:13a rapid results initiative where we made
52:15sure that anybody who had applied for
52:16their passport in the diaspora and had
52:19been taking had taken quite some time we
52:21you know we processed that uh quick fast
52:23and people got their services quickly.
52:26We extended those services and we moved
52:29a lot of our services online so that now
52:32pretty much any government service you
52:34want you can access digitally and so on
52:36and that began to do something in terms
52:39of trust building with the diaspora
52:41where they started to say okay so you
52:42want to bring services closer to us and
52:44you want to make that service easy for
52:46us to access digitally and so on. The
52:48second thing we did to build trust is to
52:52rescue our most vulnerable diaspora.
52:56So in the last few years, we've had to
52:59do evacuations from war in a few
53:02countries. We've had to evacuate Kenyan
53:04diaspora in Israel. We've had to
53:06evacuate Kenyan diaspora from Iran,
53:08evacuate Kenyan diaspora from Sudan,
53:12um from I want to say DRC and a couple
53:14of other places. And what that has done,
53:17it has built trust in our diaspora to
53:21know that if things go south, if things
53:24go really badly and I'm not able to
53:26rescue myself, I can expect Kenya
53:29Airways to land here and pull me out or
53:33I can expect to see a a Kenya Air Force
53:36jet and it's going to come and pull me
53:38out. And when we've proved that
53:40consistently to the community, then you
53:43start to see a shift in posture and a
53:46shift in what people are willing to do.
53:49And you start to see that show up in the
53:51number of conversations people are
53:53having about home, in the requests to
53:56have more voting stations. You start to
53:58see that in remittances in terms of how
54:00much more money people are sending home
54:02and just there's a change in the vibe as
54:06far as the price is concerned. So, so
54:08trust is critical and be and that is the
54:12lubricant for any um critical diaspora
54:17engagement and when we say we will do
54:19something then it is important that we
54:21follow we follow that up. So so building
54:24trust is critical for ensuring that uh
54:27diaspora diaspora remain engaged and we
54:30remain engaged in our service to the
54:31diaspora.
54:33>> Mr.
54:34I don't know why but every time Kenya's
54:36government speaks they touch a sore spot
54:38with us. It might be my subjective
54:40perception. Um so my question to you
54:43will be before we um pass on to Mr.
54:46Russell I just have to ask this
54:47question. Do we enjoy the same trust
54:50with the diaspora? If not where did we
54:53lose it on the way?
54:55What's the reason behind it?
54:59>> Uh I don't know how much trust I enjoy.
55:01I think I think Rosen was talking about
55:04the fact that there is a lack of trust
55:06and they have to constantly work hard to
55:10prove the trust to establish that trust
55:12or renew the trust and coming back to
55:15us. I think we have to go through that
55:18same process all the time. Is there a uh
55:22a crisis of trust?
55:26Depends on who you ask. Depends on who
55:29you ask. If you again yeah we can this
55:32is this is a very you know open and
55:34honest conversation. If you go to a lot
55:37of the old institutional diaspora not
55:41all of them there's a lot of old
55:43institutional diaspora here present who
55:46there is no there's no lack of trust
55:48whatsoever but some of them there seems
55:51to be a lack of trust from them.
55:57But then again, those those
55:59organizations, those entities are hardly
56:02reflective of the diaspora. They have to
56:04keep repeating this over and over and
56:06over again. Most of the diaspora is
56:09utterly unaffiliated.
56:11And whether there's trust or not, you
56:14can get the best better sense if you
56:16associate with people and hear their
56:19opinions with how much they invest in
56:22Armenia. You want to talk about the
56:24amount of trust now versus 2017,
56:27compare the investments. There's nothing
56:30to compare. You're looking at like zero
56:33and billions. That's a measure of trust.
56:36Compare the number of people that visit
56:39Armenia. Compare the numbers 2017 and
56:42compare them now. There's nothing to
56:44compare. I mean, the numbers are
56:46astronomical. And so on and so forth.
56:50And at the end of the day,
56:53we are the government of the Republic of
56:56Armenia. By constitution,
56:59by contract, by civil contract, were
57:02tasked with representing first and
57:05foremost the interests of the citizens
57:08of the Republic of Armenia. And those
57:11interests and those decisions by those
57:13citizens are made through elections. And
57:17thank God since 2018 we've had three
57:21elections
57:23and the people in Armenia have expressed
57:25actually through their physical votes
57:29who they trust and they've chosen a
57:31certain government with the diaspora
57:33again much harder different dynamic
57:36different groups different organization
57:38different political contexts too. You
57:40have to realize that a lot of our
57:42diaspora has to exist millions of people
57:45in a political foreign context that is
57:48not necessarily friendly to Armenia. So
57:51that also colors their take on what's
57:54happening in Armenia. Is there trust?
57:56Isn't there trust? But if you look at
57:58the tangible numbers, like I said, how
58:01much money is being invested in Armenia?
58:04Is money being invested or are we
58:06getting remittances from uh people who
58:09go and work there? seasonal seasonal
58:11workers. That number tells a story as
58:13well. You have to realize 10 years ago
58:15Armenia was counting every penny that
58:17was being remitted to Armenia. We don't
58:20count those pennies anymore. Now we look
58:22at the investments and we count in
58:23billions. So I think we should trust
58:26those numbers. that's true and an
58:29objective indication of whether there is
58:32trust or there isn't trust and not be
58:35given to sort of a media that may or may
58:37not be controlled by certain political
58:39groups and be reflective of not
58:41necessarily diasporan interests
58:44>> as a journalist spoiled by democracy I'm
58:47going to ask another question and that's
58:48that I promise we pass on to Mr. Russell
58:50and to more innocent questions. Um, I
58:53think those from the diaspora who don't
58:55like you, the Armenian government, um,
58:59don't like you because you're failing at
59:02hating the Turks enough.
59:06>> We have some good friends here.
59:09>> Of course, that is the case. And again,
59:11that is also a reflective of their
59:12realities. I I I just looked at at our
59:16at our ciate friends. Why? because uh we
59:20have a tradition of us visiting our
59:22criate counterparts during their summits
59:24and they come and thankfully visit ours
59:27and we we listen to each other we learn
59:29and every time I'm I'm at uh one of
59:33these conferences in August in beautiful
59:36Cyprus. I'm fascinated how similar this
59:39dynamic is of the president getting up
59:42on stage and making a super sort of
59:45rational
59:47very well uh reasoned
59:51argument for what the outlook is or what
59:53the vision is for Cypress's foreign
59:56policy and future and everything is
59:58couched on the realities on the ground.
1:00:01It's very level-headed and then you know
1:00:04the speaker of the parliament will get
1:00:05up and speak or the president of the
1:00:07parliament and so on and so forth and
1:00:09then the diasporan organizations get on
1:00:12stage and it's like rah yes we need to
1:00:14liberate northern cypress and and the
1:00:16government's like like yes but but okay
1:00:20but there's reality so that dynamic very
1:00:23much exists in Armenia you said it I
1:00:26don't want to repeat those words just
1:00:28because there's no need for it We I I
1:00:31make this argument every time I I have a
1:00:34specific type of audience and I tell
1:00:36them this. When I go to sleep in Yervan
1:00:41and I wake up in my dream, I wonder,
1:00:45God, I'm going to open my eyes and my
1:00:47neighbor is Switzerland and then I have
1:00:49France on the other side and it's Italy
1:00:51and it's Netherlands. Oh my god. But
1:00:54then I wake up, I open my eyes and I'm
1:00:55still in Yervan and Azarbajan is to the
1:00:58east. Turkeyy's to the west
1:01:02and I can't escape that reality. I can't
1:01:04argue with geography.
1:01:08And that's the message we're trying to
1:01:10convey to our very patriotic but I think
1:01:13ill-informed compatriots in the diaspora
1:01:15that we can't argue with geography and
1:01:18we can't argue with demographics and
1:01:21this is the geographic and demographic
1:01:24reality in which we want to have a
1:01:27future. We want to have a future here.
1:01:31If I wanted to have a future in LA I
1:01:33would have stayed in LA in Glendale to
1:01:36be specific. If if uh if if that's a
1:01:39future, that's a future. But we want to
1:01:42have a future here in Armenia.
1:01:45[applause]
1:01:47And I think most of the diaspora wants
1:01:50us and them to have a future in Armenia.
1:01:53There's no dissonance of goals.
1:01:55[applause]
1:01:58I believe that. I believe that. And uh
1:02:01some folks will continue disliking us.
1:02:03Some for folks will continue calling us
1:02:06bad names, but again, the future and the
1:02:09longevity and the prosperity of the
1:02:11Republic of Armenia and those people
1:02:13that live here and those people who wish
1:02:15us well is our duty and our goal.
1:02:22[applause]
1:02:26Mr. Russell, back to international
1:02:28cooperation. After this question and the
1:02:31answer to it, please get ready to ask
1:02:33your own questions. Okay, we're going to
1:02:35have more time for it than usual. I'm
1:02:38trying to make the panel as interactive
1:02:40as possible. Mr. Russell, um,
1:02:44how do you build trust
1:02:47between a diaspora or rebuild it perhaps
1:02:50fill in the cracks not necessarily with
1:02:53gold?
1:02:55um how do you rebuild trust
1:02:58between a diaspora and its anchor
1:03:03the state so there's an old saying in
1:03:06life that has nothing to do with
1:03:07diaspora but I think it's it's relevant
1:03:09here and it's trust is not an event it
1:03:11is earned
1:03:13so a part of it is about being
1:03:15consistent as well and I think if you
1:03:16zoom out the trust issue within diaspora
1:03:19engagement is not happening in isolation
1:03:22in the world that we're living in Today,
1:03:24one of the first reports I read every
1:03:26year is the Edelman Trust Barometer,
1:03:30which is the largest longitudinal study
1:03:32of trust in five institutions in the
1:03:34world over a long trajectory of time in
1:03:37government, business, media, religion,
1:03:40and nonprofits. It's trending one way
1:03:44downwards.
1:03:46About two years ago was the first time
1:03:48that the young population that were
1:03:49responding to that survey, first time
1:03:51ever in the history of the survey that a
1:03:54majority of young people were in favor
1:03:56of hostile action to drive change. So
1:03:58what we're seeing in the streets across
1:04:00Europe and the US. This is not happening
1:04:02in isolation. So how do you build trust?
1:04:05It's consistency. I think Roselene
1:04:06mentioned this as well. When you begin
1:04:09to think about diaspora engagement, your
1:04:11first duty of care as a country is to
1:04:13the people that have been maybe less
1:04:15successful in your diaspora. So in
1:04:17Ireland, we have a two-track approach.
1:04:19And I'll I'll come to the stories about
1:04:21building access and influence in a
1:04:22moment because they don't go without
1:04:24each other. So if you ask me to define
1:04:27Ireland's national diaspora strategy in
1:04:30two sentences, I would say the primary
1:04:32focus is engaging the vulnerable in our
1:04:36diaspora because it gives us the
1:04:38credibility and the trust to engage the
1:04:41successful in our diaspora. So I'm an
1:04:44Irish person. I tell stories for a
1:04:47living. I'm going to tell you two
1:04:48stories that get across this as well
1:04:50because we also have to understand that
1:04:52the the
1:04:55When we talk about being tied by
1:04:57geography, we can also think about the
1:04:59Armenian diaspora as a new form of
1:05:01power. As I said earlier, so 40 50 years
1:05:05ago, if I said to you, what did Ireland
1:05:08look like? You would have said to me,
1:05:10agricultural,
1:05:11corrupt,
1:05:13backwards, everything that goes with it.
1:05:16And today we talk about a relatively
1:05:18peaceful country, a relatively prosper
1:05:21prosperous country. Both those stories
1:05:24would not happen without a diaspora. So,
1:05:26two stories to encapsulate that. I
1:05:29remember sitting down with somebody that
1:05:31was very close to an Irish Irish
1:05:34American philanthropist that was heavily
1:05:36involved in the peace process in
1:05:37Northern Ireland and I said as a young
1:05:40researcher said, "Can you give me a bit
1:05:42of advice of why what you did, why did
1:05:44it work?"
1:05:46And the sentence he gave back to me he
1:05:48said sometimes in life Martin
1:05:50private philanthropy is private and the
1:05:53line was it can go to places where
1:05:56governments cannot or do not want to go.
1:06:00Really interesting. So what he was
1:06:02pointing there is philanthropic capital
1:06:03as risk capital to drive social progress
1:06:07cultural progress political progress.
1:06:10practical application of that theory.
1:06:13That person helped to personally co-und
1:06:16a trip for the dividing sides of the
1:06:18conflict in Northern Ireland to go and
1:06:20meet Nelson Mandela a year before the
1:06:22Good Friday Agreement was signed in
1:06:24Northern Ireland. You speak to the
1:06:26political leaders in Northern Ireland
1:06:27that were involved in that agreement and
1:06:29ask them what trip changed your
1:06:31perspective on what was possible. It was
1:06:33that trip. So that's just one
1:06:34individual. Coming back to about
1:06:36building access and building influence,
1:06:39I'm going to share a closing hopefully
1:06:41funny story to give you a sense of
1:06:44what's possible. At the time when
1:06:46Ireland as a small island economy, we're
1:06:48talking about geography. Look at a map.
1:06:50Ireland is tiny. We're a dot on the map.
1:06:54Nobody should care about us. At a time
1:06:56when we made a decision that we wanted
1:06:57to be an upward global looking economy
1:07:00looking at areas of financial services,
1:07:03technology, we began to realize our
1:07:05greatest asset was the people that had
1:07:08left the island and the generations of
1:07:10descendants that had come from those
1:07:12people that had left the island. So
1:07:14there's the story goes that an Irish
1:07:16American CEO of a major American bank
1:07:19and I know this has been recorded but
1:07:21I'll forever deny saying this.
1:07:24They were making a decision on expanding
1:07:26into Europe. It came down to Ireland and
1:07:29Switzerland for a multitude of different
1:07:31reasons. Yes, tax, talent, everything
1:07:34that goes with it. And the story goes
1:07:38the decision was 5050
1:07:40when they did all these calculations
1:07:43and the chairperson of the board asked
1:07:45for a copy of the Zoric phone book. This
1:07:49was early 90s before real technology set
1:07:51in. and he opened the phone book and he
1:07:55closed it and he said, "As the chair of
1:07:58the board, I'm deciding we're going to
1:08:00Ireland." And his colleague said, "Why
1:08:02are we going to Ireland?" He said,
1:08:04"There's nobody with my surname
1:08:07in that phone book. I know I can trust
1:08:10my people." Coming back to your question
1:08:12of trust. So, it shows how when deals
1:08:14are 50/50, the diaspora can tip it over.
1:08:17But that didn't happen without the
1:08:18trust. He understood he was engaged. was
1:08:21cultivated. So that's just a little
1:08:23story to give you a sense of what's
1:08:24possible.
1:08:27[applause]
1:08:31I suggest we start taking questions from
1:08:33the audience. Uh those who raise a hand,
1:08:36please make sure you prepare a question
1:08:38from one of the speakers at a time. Um
1:08:40so Mr. Zara Sinan, who would like to ask
1:08:44a question to the high commissioner of
1:08:47Republic of Armenia? Yes, please.
1:09:20for
1:09:32heart.
1:09:49Yeah.
1:10:09foreign.
1:10:27Foreign
1:10:34speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.
1:10:45Foreign
1:10:50speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.
1:11:05Hotel.
1:11:29foreign
1:11:51speech.
1:13:29Foreign
1:13:32speech. Foreign speech. Foreign speech.
1:13:56>> [applause]
1:14:00>> Uh, do we have a question for Kenya's
1:14:03representative?
1:14:17World Armenian use network.
1:14:24Yes.
1:14:53That's
1:15:15online.
1:15:22Shut up.
1:15:34foreign
1:16:12forch.
1:17:20My name is
1:17:32We in the diaspora I think we are all
1:17:34aware that we have the three major
1:17:37political parties. We also have various
1:17:40uh cultural groups and the schools and
1:17:43the churches and all that. And people
1:17:46whoever belong to these groups of course
1:17:48they are very much uh they sort of will
1:17:52follow their doctrine or whatever you
1:17:56know their policies will be towards
1:17:58Armenia. But on the other hand you have
1:18:01many people in the diaspora. I
1:18:04personally call them the silent
1:18:06majority.
1:18:08people who are patriot
1:18:12and they want to be part of all this.
1:18:15How do you get to these people? I will
1:18:18never suggest to create another
1:18:20political party or another group. I
1:18:23personally don't believe in that. But
1:18:25you have lots of talent and lots of
1:18:28people who have good feelings and want
1:18:31to support the homeland. How what will
1:18:34be the agenda? How do you mobilize these
1:18:37people? How do you you know um I don't
1:18:41know there should be different programs
1:18:43to reach them to make use of their
1:18:46expertise and have them you know support
1:18:49uh the homeland. Thank you.
1:18:52>> Um yeah great question. I mean look
1:18:56since at least since I I have been
1:18:58appointed as high commissioner the
1:19:01entire
1:19:02logic of our interaction with the
1:19:06diaspora has changed. Uh my perception
1:19:10also as a diaspora when I was there was
1:19:12very active I I kind of knew what how
1:19:15Armenia relates with its diaspora at
1:19:17least the US diaspora. Uh my sense was
1:19:20that there were designated
1:19:23organizations. They were literally
1:19:26anointed to be the speakers for the
1:19:28diaspora. So a political party or
1:19:32religious structure where like okay you
1:19:34have monopoly when you speak
1:19:37that's the diaspora. Your voice is the
1:19:40diaspora. You get primacy in everything.
1:19:44um we will converse with the diaspora by
1:19:47talking to you only
1:19:50and obviously that's very unhealthy
1:19:52considering the fact again that like no
1:19:55I said the same thing you said the
1:19:57overwhelming majority of the diaspora is
1:19:59unaffiliated
1:20:02so if you've noticed our work with our
1:20:06diaspora to the extent that you have
1:20:07noticed is very people centric we
1:20:10concentrate on individuals we don't
1:20:13ignore
1:20:13uh uh entities, organizations, not at
1:20:16all. Not in any way. But we also don't
1:20:21only operate through organizations. Now,
1:20:23there are organizations that don't want
1:20:25to cooperate back. You know that. And
1:20:28that's okay. But there are many
1:20:29organizations that do and we work with
1:20:32them to the extent that these
1:20:33organizations want to work with us. I
1:20:35mean, the the hand is extended.
1:20:38Some shake it, some don't want to for
1:20:41political reasons. again other reasons,
1:20:43historic reasons, and that's fine. When
1:20:46they come around, they want to shake
1:20:47that hand, that handshake will happen.
1:20:49In the meantime, we're working with
1:20:52those organizations that are here or
1:20:54want to be here, want to work with the
1:20:56government, want want to be a part of
1:20:58this effort that should be a joint
1:21:01effort to make our country great. Not
1:21:04again, I don't want to use that word,
1:21:06but to make to make the country, you
1:21:08know, better. Um, and then there's the
1:21:11myriad of individuals that are there.
1:21:15They're unaffiliated
1:21:17and we work with them just fine. And I
1:21:21I'll even tell you a story about the
1:21:23first uh global summit uh because it's
1:21:26very relevant when we were thinking of
1:21:29how do we send out invitations
1:21:32for the summit and became controversial
1:21:34too because some organizations that
1:21:38don't like you know the usual suspects
1:21:41that don't like us they were like okay
1:21:43you did that to ignore us and then other
1:21:45organizations that are quite friendly we
1:21:48have great relationship they also didn't
1:21:50like the fact because we sent out the
1:21:52invitations to individuals.
1:21:55We did not invite organizations per se.
1:21:57We send it out to individuals. We chose
1:21:59individuals from those organizations by
1:22:01the way. We send it to their leadership.
1:22:03But we didn't say we invite you because
1:22:05you are this organization. We said we
1:22:07invite you because you're important as a
1:22:09person. So even that was our way of
1:22:14suggesting to the diaspora that we are
1:22:17trying to value you in your capacity as
1:22:22an individual and not necessarily
1:22:24because you belong to one organization
1:22:26or another and that that did become
1:22:29controversial. But my point is
1:22:33we go out of our way to work with like
1:22:36you said individuals so that they don't
1:22:38feel like they're left out or they have
1:22:40to somehow join up uh and therefore
1:22:44become relevant. At the same time I'll
1:22:46tell you honestly that we don't mind
1:22:49actually we'd like for the diaspora to
1:22:51be more organized. We would love for
1:22:53there to be robust organizational
1:22:56diaspora because that makes our jobs
1:22:59easier because it's it's easier to deal
1:23:01with organizations there are fewer of
1:23:02them than it is to deal with each
1:23:05individual. Imagine us having to deal
1:23:07with that theoretical 7 million or 8
1:23:10million people versus us having to deal
1:23:12with 100 organizations. Which one would
1:23:14I would we prefer the second? But we
1:23:16know that's not realistic. So we go out
1:23:18of our way to have persontoperson
1:23:21contact. Um,
1:23:24and to the extent that it's possible, we
1:23:25try to do it. Again, if you have some
1:23:28specific methodology that you think can
1:23:30help us do it better,
1:23:32I'm all ears. Please let me know. I'd
1:23:35love to I'd love to learn and I'd love
1:23:37to improve uh the way we work. There's
1:23:40always room for improvement. We're far
1:23:42from perfect, but we do try. We do our
1:23:46best.
1:23:50What is what do you mean by platform?
1:23:52Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say when
1:23:53you say we need a platform. This is a
1:23:57platform. The Armenian Global Summit is
1:23:59a platform in which we invite
1:24:01organizations and individuals
1:24:04to come so we can sit down and talk and
1:24:07hear each other and things you know make
1:24:09things better.
1:24:13Sorry. Hello everybody. I'm going to I'm
1:24:16going to ask the question in English. So
1:24:17our guest our great guests understand me
1:24:20even though you can answer in Roman if
1:24:21you need to. By by the way my name is
1:24:23Mir Kadoran and one of those
1:24:25organizations that we were talking about
1:24:26the three
1:24:29from California USA. Uh first of all Mr.
1:24:32uh we go way way back. I congratulate
1:24:35you for this particular summit. It's
1:24:37been great and I understand that your
1:24:39point of view that you just said right
1:24:41now about inviting organizations or
1:24:43inviting the organizations and sometimes
1:24:45why they get upset and stuff like that.
1:24:47Yes. Armenian Armenian organizations
1:24:49don't speak about don't speak uh for the
1:24:53whole diaspora. I agree with that. We
1:24:55never as an organization we never came
1:24:57out. We never for our 140 years we never
1:25:00say we speak on behalf of the
1:25:01organizations. We're one of that. But uh
1:25:05we kind of represent some grassroot part
1:25:07of the or part of the diaspora because
1:25:09we have branches all over the world. So
1:25:11it's always great to engage with
1:25:13organizations and with individuals with
1:25:15philanthropists and with business people
1:25:17with all that stuff and with even
1:25:19religious organizations too. But my
1:25:21question is about the Irish diaspora.
1:25:24It's I'm very fascinated with the Irish
1:25:26diaspora because it is one of the
1:25:28diasporas similar to the Armenian
1:25:31diaspora which is created from the 1800s
1:25:34not just because of the struggle or the
1:25:37whatever went Ireland went through the
1:25:39past 40 50 years until the peace process
1:25:41and all that stuff. It's been there for
1:25:43many years before even Armenians
1:25:45migrated to the United States because
1:25:47I'm come I come from the United States.
1:25:48I hear all the stories. We read all the
1:25:50books about the Irish diaspora in the
1:25:52United States. How did you as an Ireland
1:25:55Irish diaspora overcome the power
1:25:58dynamics of 5 million or 6 million
1:26:00living in Ireland and over today I heard
1:26:03I didn't know it was almost 100 million
1:26:06living in diaspora itself so what was
1:26:09the challenges what was the uh the uh
1:26:13solutions I'm not saying we need to
1:26:15speak for two months but if you can give
1:26:17me a couple of point of views and my
1:26:19second question is to
1:26:22sorry And I I didn't know there was a
1:26:25diaspora created from Kenya all that
1:26:27stuff from Ying. What how did the I mean
1:26:31what was the reason that was diaspora? I
1:26:33really I'm interested what was the
1:26:35reason the diaspora was created that uh
1:26:37like you have the diaspora going on
1:26:39right now. So with Armenian with the
1:26:41genocide is the first wave and then the
1:26:43so collapse of Soviet Union the second
1:26:45wave collapse of Lebanese the Lebanese
1:26:47civil war uh third wave you know the the
1:26:50Iran conflict fourth wave that all that
1:26:53creates all these diasporas and all have
1:26:56different reasons and different uh
1:26:57sections so if you don't mind asking me
1:26:59and my last last question to Mr.
1:27:02is are we going to see an agenda that is
1:27:08between Armenia and diaspora where
1:27:11separation of each person or each uh an
1:27:14agenda that tells us what we need to do
1:27:17as diasporans exactly guides us because
1:27:20we're not 100% know what the Armenia's
1:27:24statethood needs to survive and stuff
1:27:26like that so we can work toward that and
1:27:29and how can we build on that like what
1:27:31what are what or what are you planning
1:27:33not just this uh
1:27:37diaspora the sorry
1:27:42thing but all over everything not just
1:27:44having ambassadors representing Armenia
1:27:48all on all aspects philanthropy business
1:27:50so what when we do or what what are the
1:27:53roles that becomes from uh helping the
1:27:56politics side of it humanitarian side of
1:27:58it and all that stuff so is there a
1:28:00certain are we holding toward that or
1:28:01not. Thank you very much. Sorry, too
1:28:04many questions. I apologize.
1:28:06>> Perfect. Um, so I I'll try and answer in
1:28:08two minutes, but it's about a couple
1:28:10hundred years of history. [laughter]
1:28:12You're good. Look, genuinely, you hit
1:28:14the nail in the head. You know, people
1:28:16have an image of the Irish diaspora now
1:28:17as as a very powerful community,
1:28:20connected, influential. It wasn't always
1:28:21the case. You know, 100 years ago in the
1:28:24US, there were signs on the door, no
1:28:26dogs, no blacks, no Irish. We were last.
1:28:30read the signs. We were last on the
1:28:32list. So, you have to make a decision as
1:28:34a community as well. And this is what I
1:28:36was hinting at earlier in the sense of
1:28:37government can't do it all. You know, we
1:28:39made a conscious decision when you look
1:28:40at the history that we were going to
1:28:42begin to try and build our power as a
1:28:44community. And that began in local
1:28:46politics, trade unions, police forces,
1:28:49you know, and within the turn of the the
1:28:5120th century, within 40 or 50, 60 years,
1:28:53we had the White House in a certain guy
1:28:55called JFK. So a part of it is a
1:28:58conscious decision as a community to
1:29:00build that. Now as you move through the
1:29:02the forces of history and there's
1:29:04literature out there that quite often
1:29:05it's victim diasporas that tend to be
1:29:08the strongest over time and obviously we
1:29:10had a famine in the 1840s in in Ireland
1:29:12and we had an exodus from the island.
1:29:14But there was also a mindset shift on
1:29:16the island on the power dynamics that
1:29:18you talked about because a lot of people
1:29:19you'd have an analogies like the west
1:29:22wake. So if people left the west of
1:29:24Ireland they were gone and gone for
1:29:25good. So we had a mindset shift as a
1:29:27country where we we would always talk
1:29:29about immigration as a tragedy and for
1:29:32some people it was but we actually said
1:29:33to ourselves what if it's an opportunity
1:29:36and then we began to think about what
1:29:38does that look like practically. So at
1:29:40at a very practical political level and
1:29:43this is something I think for Armenia
1:29:44it's important not to rush as well. You
1:29:47know diaspora policy is a new policy
1:29:49area. Ireland has been doing diaspora
1:29:52engagement for centuries. The unit set
1:29:54up to engage the Irish diaspora from the
1:29:57Irish government was only established in
1:30:002004.
1:30:01Our first ever strategy was only in
1:30:032015. So we worked with the Irish
1:30:06government on the most recent strategy
1:30:08which was just published a few months
1:30:09ago. So we're still learning on the job.
1:30:12You know the sense of where it's going.
1:30:13But one thing I would say it comes back
1:30:14to the point about the platform as well.
1:30:16We spend a lot of time looking at
1:30:18successes in diaspora engagement. I
1:30:20prefer to look at the failures because
1:30:23you learn more from your failures than
1:30:24your successes. So for example in
1:30:26Ireland we've had many initiatives.
1:30:28Wouldn't it be great if we created an
1:30:29online platform for the global Irish? We
1:30:32tried it. It didn't work. There's a
1:30:34thing called Facebook already. There's a
1:30:36thing called LinkedIn already [laughter]
1:30:38that that they're all using right that
1:30:39do have to be cognizant of. But a
1:30:41closing reflection from my end just to
1:30:43your question. One of the lessons that
1:30:45we've learned across the years is that
1:30:47there's no such thing as the Irish
1:30:49diaspora.
1:30:51There's hundreds of them and they're all
1:30:53different and you have to make strategic
1:30:56decisions as a country where you want to
1:30:57engage and how you want to engage with.
1:31:00So in our new strategy for example, we
1:31:02have something called the immigrant
1:31:03support program which funds diaspora
1:31:06organizations that work in culture,
1:31:08education, welfare provision services.
1:31:11But we also have strategic strategies
1:31:13then if we want to engage for talent
1:31:15attraction if we want to engage for
1:31:18investment philanthropy and they're all
1:31:20different diasporas and most importantly
1:31:22they're all different types of diaspora
1:31:24engagement they're different skill sets
1:31:26so we're maturing as we go we're not
1:31:28there yet I keep reminding the Irish
1:31:30government [laughter]
1:31:31we're not there yet but that's just to
1:31:33give you a reflection of how we go about
1:31:34it and the trajectory of
1:31:39>> [applause]
1:31:41>> Right. So why does Kenya have a
1:31:44diaspora?
1:31:45Um our our diaspora story is not uh
1:31:50hundreds of years old or um but it goes
1:31:54back
1:31:56to perhaps um one of the earliest
1:32:00stories would be one of just before
1:32:02independence. So Kenya uh gained its
1:32:05independence from the British in 1963.
1:32:08But in the runup to that independence
1:32:11and in the independence struggle and in
1:32:13the Ma Mau rebellion um some of the
1:32:16different trackcts that were being used
1:32:18to pursue independence included um
1:32:21people moving uh abroad to study and to
1:32:25do things like that uh quote unquote in
1:32:28preparation to take over the civil
1:32:30service once the Brits left. Um there
1:32:33are earlier stories of course of people
1:32:35moving from the territory that we now
1:32:38call Kenya uh to go to join the or
1:32:42rather they were conscripted as uh
1:32:45soldiers in the first and second world
1:32:47war to fight alongside the British and
1:32:49so on and that's its own its own story
1:32:51and we will not do the two months
1:32:53version but um in the in the 40s and the
1:32:5750s 1940s and 50s what happened is that
1:33:00we started seeing a number of Kenyans
1:33:01ians moving usually to the UK or to the
1:33:05US for education. Um some of the
1:33:08earliest diaspora became were part of
1:33:11what are called them boy uh Kennedy
1:33:14airlifts. So President Kennedy in the US
1:33:17um and a prominent uh civil servant in
1:33:20Kenya called Tom Buer came together and
1:33:22started doing this airlift where they
1:33:23would take Kenyan promising Kenyan
1:33:25students to school in the US. One of
1:33:28those uh was the father of Barack Obama
1:33:31who then moved to the US um and you know
1:33:34eventually met up with his Irish um uh
1:33:39wife and they had Barack Obama. So you
1:33:41know so we both claim um Obama as one of
1:33:45our diaspora but but the airlifts began
1:33:48and the first wave then of our diaspora
1:33:50were these people who went abroad to
1:33:52study. Um some of them came back, a
1:33:55number stayed in the US, in the UK in
1:33:58particular, um and formed that early
1:34:01group of our diaspora. Um many of them
1:34:05now uh deceased, but second and third
1:34:08generation diaspora from those lines
1:34:10exist. We had a second wave. So the the
1:34:13education track has always been one of
1:34:15the strongest ways in which Kenya has
1:34:18Kenya's diaspora has developed. many
1:34:20went abroad, studied, stayed or came
1:34:22back and so on. around uh shortly after
1:34:25not shortly after independence we went
1:34:27into the the second presidency was uh a
1:34:31fairly despotic guy and uh it was a
1:34:34rather tough time and multipartism all
1:34:37you know but died and during that time
1:34:39there were a number of of exiles uh a
1:34:43lot of them were scholars university
1:34:45lecturers um and uh people who wrote
1:34:49especially books left at that time they
1:34:52were forced out and they ran for their
1:34:54lives um to the US, to the UK, to
1:34:57Norway, to the Balkans and so on and and
1:35:00those remained there for many many
1:35:02years. Um and then in the runup to uh
1:35:07regaining our multi-party state around
1:35:09the early '9s, that sort of political
1:35:11persecution sort of intensified and we
1:35:13had that that second wave. Um and
1:35:17[cough and clears throat] then what
1:35:18we've seen now in the last 15 years and
1:35:22and so the education track remains as I
1:35:24said and people went off and have
1:35:25continued to do that still do that. Um
1:35:28in the last 15 years we've seen a
1:35:30different wave which has been labor
1:35:32mobility. We have a significant number
1:35:35of Kenyans who go abroad to look for
1:35:38work and it is a part of government
1:35:39policy to help Kenyans find
1:35:41opportunities abroad. We are an
1:35:43extremely youthful population. Um the
1:35:46median age in Kenya is 19 which means
1:35:49that Kenyans are constantly looking for
1:35:50opportunities elsewhere. And if you
1:35:52think about the demographics in other
1:35:53parts of the world uh countries like
1:35:56Germany for example the median age is
1:35:5744. Countries like Japan the median age
1:36:00is 50 compared to our 19. So people are
1:36:03constantly finding work especially in
1:36:05healthcare ICT and that kind of thing.
1:36:07And so we have that story of that labor
1:36:10mobility creating our diaspora. And we
1:36:13have a big group coming from that
1:36:15especially around the Middle East where
1:36:16we now have a lot of Kenyans working um
1:36:19and in many other places uh um Canada,
1:36:23Australia, um Germany now and and now
1:36:26Kenya is actively getting into
1:36:28agreements on labor mobility with many
1:36:30countries and so that's the other track
1:36:32of our labor mobility. It has created an
1:36:35interesting tapestry. Um but that is
1:36:37that is our story. Thanks.
1:36:39>> Mhm.
1:36:42[applause]
1:36:49You if I remember and understood your
1:36:52question correctly, you were there
1:36:53yesterday when the prime minister spoke,
1:36:55right? And um
1:37:01I hope that as a result of that talk
1:37:05there's a though for those that watched
1:37:07there's a clearer understanding of
1:37:11what is at the at the core of
1:37:14uh the policies that are shaping uh
1:37:17taking shape in Armenia and and to sum
1:37:20it up maybe in one sentence and I'll try
1:37:22to do it. It's it's the strengthening of
1:37:24the statehood
1:37:26of the Republic of Armenia.
1:37:29Now you're saying are you going to tell
1:37:32us like what we can do or what we're
1:37:34going to do or what the state needs you
1:37:37to do, right? Is is right. Is if I
1:37:39remember correctly
1:37:48testing.
1:37:50Sorry. No, no, no. I'm not saying what
1:37:52the state is going to tell us. What are
1:38:15Sorry, I apologize saying
1:38:17>> let's sum it up. So in essence, what are
1:38:19the sort of what's the separation of uh
1:38:22duties and responsibilities between
1:38:24Armenia and the diaspora in achieving a
1:38:27common goal that we've stated for
1:38:29ourselves? That's the question.
1:38:31project.
1:38:32>> So it it that it's an
1:38:36almost an impossible task. Uh why?
1:38:40because
1:38:42there's no one diaspora and and that's a
1:38:44key point that we we we keep stressing
1:38:47in Armenia stressing to ourselves
1:38:49stressing to the diaspora that when we
1:38:51are dealing with what we call the
1:38:53diaspora in its collective sense is in
1:38:56reality hundreds if not thousands of
1:39:00different diasporas with very different
1:39:05contexts whether it's origination where
1:39:08they come from whether it's their
1:39:10worldview, whether it's the political
1:39:13context, social context, economic
1:39:15context in which they exist and
1:39:17therefore their capabilities and
1:39:19abilities uh even the willingness to be
1:39:22a part of this in any tangible way is
1:39:24very different. So we're dealing with a
1:39:28mosaic
1:39:29to which we can't make a general
1:39:32offering in a sense. We can't we don't
1:39:34have a silver bullet for this.
1:39:37what we can do and what we're trying to
1:39:39do is say this is us. This is where
1:39:43we're trying to get to and this is how
1:39:46we're trying to do it.
1:39:49And once you understand it, I think it's
1:39:52incumbent on each individual diaspora or
1:39:55each individual organization or each
1:39:58community to identify the means through
1:40:02which they believe they can be a part of
1:40:05this process because it's impossible for
1:40:08us to identify individual roles for each
1:40:11individual, each organization, each
1:40:14community. We just we just can't do it.
1:40:17And
1:40:19another another sensitivity on this
1:40:21issue is that you have to realize that
1:40:22diaspora
1:40:24and diasporas are
1:40:28people a collection of people that are
1:40:31physically located very often citizens
1:40:34of foreign states. So there's a fine
1:40:38line that we can't cross. We we can't
1:40:40dictate to these foreign citizens as to
1:40:42what they should be doing on the
1:40:43territories of their own countries. that
1:40:46that is full of you know problems in of
1:40:49itself. So again we we want to be as
1:40:54clear and as transparent and as as
1:40:56understandable realizing that there is
1:41:00an objective difficulty in understanding
1:41:03what's happening in Armenia or to
1:41:05Armenia and why it's happening. So
1:41:08presenting that, explaining it and
1:41:11saying we'd love to have you as part of
1:41:13this.
1:41:15But how you can be a part of this is a
1:41:18very individual question because
1:41:21different context, different
1:41:22capabilities, different willingness.
1:41:25um and sort of the best we can do again
1:41:28if you think there is a program that can
1:41:31be offered that somehow
1:41:34has uh you know sort of offers the same
1:41:36thing to a Los Angeles Armenian first
1:41:40generation or maybe second generation of
1:41:42the best and a fourth generation person
1:41:44in Boston
1:41:47or folks in Russian Federation that are
1:41:50worlds literally and and figuratively
1:41:54apart. from the the reality of the
1:41:56American diaspora and and and everything
1:41:58in between, right?
1:42:01I'm happy to hear it, but I just don't
1:42:02see it.
1:42:05You from LA, I've known you since 1994.
1:42:10True.
1:42:12>> Yes. We were working together on the
1:42:1480th anniversary of the genocide
1:42:17commemoration committee. I was
1:42:19representing UCLA the university and you
1:42:22were representing your political entity
1:42:25uh the the social democratic liberal
1:42:27party. Look,
1:42:30you're from Pasadena. I was from
1:42:32Burbank, maybe 30 miles apart,
1:42:35but we were very different. Our
1:42:37backgrounds were very different.
1:42:38Although we're all, you know,
1:42:39grandchildren of genocide survivors, but
1:42:42my my situation in life was very
1:42:45different back then. Yours was very
1:42:46different. you grew up in in a very sort
1:42:49of traditional organizational somewhat
1:42:52like Beirut reality almost. I was a guy
1:42:56who came from the Soviet Union as a kid.
1:42:59I had very different outlook on life.
1:43:02And back then if someone was to say,
1:43:05well, what can you do for Armenia? How
1:43:07are you part of our Armenian reality?
1:43:09Our answers would be different. True.
1:43:12>> Still holds true today. So it's
1:43:15difficult. I can't answer that question.
1:43:18All I know is that we have this.
1:43:21We'd love to have you. Let's work on it
1:43:24together to the extent you want to. We
1:43:27have we're offering these avenues, these
1:43:29programs. These are our needs and it's
1:43:32incumbent on you to figure out how you
1:43:34fit in.
1:43:38[applause]
1:43:42>> Last question, please. we've exceeded
1:43:45>> time limits.
1:43:46>> Thank you very much for the very
1:43:49interesting discussion. My question
1:43:51actually stemmed from a point that the
1:43:54madame principal secretary brought up
1:43:56about Kenya allowing voting rights
1:43:58abroad for Kenyan diaspora
1:44:01and in our my question is to the high
1:44:04commissioner Mr. Silan. Uh, in the
1:44:07context of Armenia, of course, we know
1:44:09that after the 2003 presidential
1:44:11elections, Robert Kocharian amended the
1:44:15law allowing citizens abroad from voting
1:44:18in embassies and other diplomatic
1:44:21uh, establishments across the diaspora.
1:44:24Uh, and that was motivated primarily
1:44:26because of political calculations
1:44:29because a lot of the Armenians that had
1:44:31left Armenia post independence and had
1:44:34ended up in California and across Europe
1:44:38uh were people who had left Armenia
1:44:40because of corruption, lack of rule of
1:44:43law, lack of hum uh human rights and
1:44:45democracy. And it was very clear that
1:44:47they were voting against uh Robert
1:44:50Coacharian and everybody surrounding him
1:44:53politically. Um so it was a polit
1:44:56politically expedient move by Robert
1:44:59Cocharian to amend the law banning
1:45:01Armenian citizens abroad from voting.
1:45:04But my question is uh in relation to the
1:45:07two post 2026 parliamentary elections,
1:45:11the change in the law that your
1:45:13government introduced where you set
1:45:17additional uh barriers for diasporan
1:45:20Armenians living abroad from their
1:45:22ability to travel to Armenia in order to
1:45:25vote. Possibly there are potential risks
1:45:30of manipulating with voting especially
1:45:34coming from Russia. But how can you
1:45:36actually
1:45:38um assure the diaspora Armenians that
1:45:42your decision is not also politically
1:45:44motivated and politically expedient
1:45:47uh as opposed to you know protecting the
1:45:50voting rights of uh Armenian citizens in
1:45:53Armenia and abroad. Thank you.
1:45:58The question was for you first. It was
1:46:00first to you that
1:46:01>> I mean the Kenyan context
1:46:04there's 60 million people living in the
1:46:06country living three four million. So
1:46:10maybe there's less of a national
1:46:12security risk in the context of rather
1:46:15than
1:46:16>> maybe to say really quickly that um yes
1:46:19our law our law is very clear and again
1:46:21our our diaspora story is very different
1:46:24from the Armenian and the Irish story.
1:46:26Our diaspora is a very recent diaspora
1:46:29and our law is also very clear about who
1:46:32can vote in our elections. What which
1:46:34diaspora can vote? you do have uh to be
1:46:37a citizen uh citizen of Kenya, you have
1:46:40to be holding your pass a valid passport
1:46:42uh or a national ID and then you have to
1:46:44register to vote. So there are some um
1:46:47guidelines in terms of who can vote um
1:46:50and the the elections have to happen in
1:46:52the embassy or consulate similar to what
1:46:54you've said. So our circumstances might
1:46:57be a little bit different um not just in
1:47:01terms of number but also in terms of who
1:47:05is eligible to vote and what
1:47:07documentation they must they must
1:47:09present. I will say this that the Kenyan
1:47:12diaspora actually took us to court um on
1:47:15this particular matter to ex to extend
1:47:17we we we there was one case that ruled
1:47:20that there is a constitutional right for
1:47:22Kenyans for Kenyan in the diaspora every
1:47:24Kenyan in the diaspora to vote every
1:47:26Kenyan adult in the diaspora to vote um
1:47:29and that that right is to be
1:47:31progressively achieved. Um and now in my
1:47:34time there is a a a new lawsuit again by
1:47:38uh our diaspora um who want to expand uh
1:47:42who want to be by uh mandate to expand
1:47:45the number of countries in which they
1:47:47can vote. They want to expand how many
1:47:50hours um are open for voting and they
1:47:54want to remove the requirement that
1:47:56voting can only be done in embassies but
1:47:58that should be done you know in anywhere
1:48:00else that can be gazetted and so on.
1:48:02These are constitutional challenges that
1:48:04would require a referendum and so on. So
1:48:06while the right is there, it is not
1:48:08necessarily settled. It is still
1:48:10something that um that is being
1:48:12challenged.
1:48:14>> Just to jump in literally 30 seconds
1:48:17because this comes up quite a bit on
1:48:18diaspora panels. Ireland is a little bit
1:48:21of an outlier here, but I want to use
1:48:22the analogy of driving on the road in
1:48:25terms of the future of of of the nation
1:48:26or the state. The Irish diaspora cannot
1:48:29vote.
1:48:30It has never stopped them from being a
1:48:33phenomenal partner in the development of
1:48:36our country. Now you'll always have an
1:48:37argument an element of of you know a
1:48:39political lobby or activist but to me
1:48:42the vote should not be the determining
1:48:44factor of how people contribute to the
1:48:46development of the nation. some context
1:48:48it can help. But I just wanted to share
1:48:50that as a practical lived reality that
1:48:52the Irish they ask but do not have a
1:48:54vote but yet they're one of the
1:48:55long-standing partners for the the past,
1:48:57the present and the future of our
1:48:59country.
1:49:01[applause]
1:49:05>> Really thank you for that. uh [laughter]
1:49:10uh honestly because
1:49:12and Saris your question is uh so perfect
1:49:15like you're so well informed and the way
1:49:18you framed it uh it almost doesn't
1:49:21really need an answer but I will answer
1:49:23because there is one little nuance there
1:49:26uh so I'll start with what uh Dr.
1:49:29Russell what Martin said for the life of
1:49:32me I don't understand why does a person
1:49:35who doesn't want to live in a country
1:49:36pay taxes there uh and therefore enjoy
1:49:40the uh the benefits that a state bestows
1:49:44upon them whether it's been in in in in
1:49:47the shape of security infrastructure
1:49:49education healthcare
1:49:52um or or or participating in its defense
1:49:55why does a person want to become a
1:49:56citizen of a country I swear to I don't
1:49:59understand. But that's me. Maybe I'm
1:50:01faulty. Maybe that's my problem.
1:50:04In in the case of Armenia, we have a
1:50:07dual issue. One you outline perfectly.
1:50:11There's a real
1:50:13palpable national security threat that
1:50:18we don't face theoretically. We have
1:50:20experienced practically just very
1:50:24recently in June of this year where a
1:50:26certain country that shall remain
1:50:28nameless at least from me but you
1:50:30mentioned it.
1:50:32>> You did it does not you know hold back
1:50:36from uh weaponizing
1:50:39our own people that reside on their
1:50:41territory
1:50:43to influence the political outcomes in
1:50:46our country where we live.
1:50:50where we do pay taxes
1:50:53and we do suffer the consequences of our
1:50:56own political decisions
1:50:58while those that don't live here do not
1:51:01suffer those consequences
1:51:05and that threat is extremely
1:51:08real
1:51:10especially when you realize that
1:51:12Armenia's population is relatively small
1:51:16and it's not that hard for a large
1:51:18diaspora RA living outside the the
1:51:21boundaries of the Republic of Armenia to
1:51:23be able to influence that political
1:51:24outcome.
1:51:26That's one reason. The second reason
1:51:31is sort of the maturation of the
1:51:34Armenian statehood. I'm making these
1:51:37words up sort of my own description of
1:51:38what's happening. Uh uh Armenia is
1:51:41turning from what 10 years ago some
1:51:46members of the former Armenian
1:51:47government were proudly calling as we
1:51:50are the foremost of a certain country
1:51:53that shall remain nameless. They were
1:51:56identifying us our own our country as a
1:51:58foremost like a military outpost of a
1:52:02country. Well, let me assure you of
1:52:05this. No matter how much difficulty,
1:52:08pain, suffering, loss,
1:52:11um, we have undergone in the last few
1:52:13years, we are experiencing the
1:52:16maturation of the Armenian statethood.
1:52:18We're not a banana republic and our
1:52:22citizenship is worth something. And we
1:52:25realize that and we're taking ownership
1:52:27of it. And we're saying, folks, in the
1:52:30diaspora, we love you. We love you
1:52:33whether you're there, whether you want
1:52:35to move to Armenia. If you do choose to
1:52:37become a citizen,
1:52:40fine. Then show us that you want this
1:52:43citizenship and there's some organic
1:52:45connection, physical connection between
1:52:47you and the state. And that should
1:52:49always be
1:52:51in the shape of res residing in Armenia.
1:52:54If you live here for two years as
1:52:56opposed to every non-Armenian who has to
1:52:58live here for five years,
1:53:01we will give you citizenship by right by
1:53:03right. Not by you going through various
1:53:07processes which non-Armenians have to go
1:53:09through to gain citizenship, but show us
1:53:12that you want to become citizen. And
1:53:15this is not final. This is what's out
1:53:17there in the media and we're talking
1:53:19about that. But this is what the
1:53:21Armenian statethood wants. And you know
1:53:23what the residents of Armenia want that
1:53:25too. They want to understand that their
1:53:27citizenship
1:53:28holds the same value as the citizenship
1:53:31of another Armenian who wants to get it.
1:53:34So these two processes are moving
1:53:36forward in parallel. And there's no
1:53:39conspiracy. It's not political in the
1:53:41sense that
1:53:43you know if they have citizenship
1:53:45they're going to vote against us. No,
1:53:46it's political in the sense that we will
1:53:49not allow a foreign government to
1:53:50influence the outcome. of the vote in
1:53:53Armenia. The the vote of our of the
1:53:55Armenian people belong to the Armenian
1:53:57people who live here because we suffered
1:53:59the consequences of those political
1:54:00choices. That's all
1:54:04[applause]
1:54:07>> ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for your
1:54:09attention. Uh this is all we have for
1:54:12now. We wish you a pleasant continuation
1:54:15of the day.
1:54:17[applause]

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