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Integration of Knowledge and Islam as Science: The Future of Islamic Thought — Transcript

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1:51of Muslim psychologist Dr. Bagus Riono
1:54Mr. Psycho
1:56>> lecture at the faculty of philosophy
1:58univers
2:00Dr. M. Rodinal Hoyer Hosri as Mfield
2:03>> and the invited guest lectures and all
2:06of the participant.
2:11>> Good morning.
2:15>> Good morning and welcome to the
2:17international seminar on Islam and
2:20Civilization 2025.
2:23My name is Pandu Arita Dharma Pratama
2:26and my name is Sala Bilutriasuki
2:29as the master of ceremony and it is a
2:31great honor for us to welcome you to
2:33this event.
2:34>> On behalf of the organizing committee,
2:37it's an honor and privilege to welcome
2:39you to this special occasion. We are
2:41deeply grateful for your presence and
2:44participations in today's agenda.
2:47>> Before we begin, allow me to present the
2:50agenda for today. First the opening
2:52ceremony. Second we will sing the
2:54Indonesia national anthem Indonesia and
2:57himna gajada. Third recitation of the
3:01holy Quran. Then the welcome and opening
3:03speech. Next is the presentation from
3:06the keynote speakers followed by a panel
3:08discussion and lastly the closing.
3:13>> Before we move on to our next agenda, we
3:15would like to you please rise. We will
3:18begin this remarkable event with a sense
3:20of unity and pride as we stand for the
3:23national anthem of Indonesia, Indonesia
3:26and followed by him gajamada.
4:04>> [music]
4:07>> Heat. Heat.
4:14>> [music]
4:26>> Heat. Heat.
4:46Hallelujah.
4:50[music]
4:56Heat. Heat.
5:07[music]
5:15[music]
5:16Heat.
5:21[music]
5:28[music]
5:34[music]
5:35Heat.
5:50>> [music]
5:51>> All
5:53[singing]
5:58[music and singing]
6:04[music]
6:06he
6:08[singing and music] wants.
6:13>> [music and singing]
6:18>> She was [music and singing]
6:24[music]
6:25[singing]
6:29[music]
6:43>> [music]
6:45[singing]
6:50[music]
6:50[singing]
6:51>> Jesus.
6:55[music and singing]
7:02[singing]
7:04[music]
7:10>> [music]
7:11[singing]
7:18[singing]
7:19[music]
7:24[music and singing]
7:35>> Thank you and please kindly be seated.
7:46The next
7:55the next agenda is restation of the holy
7:57Quran which will delivered by Mr.
8:00Hillme. To Mr. Hillme the floor is
8:04yours.
8:39It's a mess.
8:51Sh.
9:08Bism
9:13[singing]
9:16[screaming]
9:33in
9:36the Foreign [singing]
9:58[singing]
10:13Well,
10:17anyone
10:27align
10:53>> [singing]
10:56>> All
11:04the Oh,
11:09no. Be
11:29[singing]
11:30Fore!
11:51Foreign! Foreign!
11:56La.
12:18[singing]
12:45>> [singing]
12:52>> Allah.
13:12Thank you Mr. Helme for the beautiful
13:14recitation of the Holy Quran. May the
13:17recitation of Holy Quran bring blessing
13:19and grace to our event this morning.
13:24Next, the first welcoming speech is from
13:26the director of planning Universas
13:28Gajada, Mr. Ali Susanto Ee MBA, PhD.
13:36Ladies and gentlemen, please join me and
13:39welcoming Mr. Ellie Susanto, PhD.
13:48Excellency
14:10chairpersons both of professor professor
14:13uh buni
14:15excellency chairman of masjid campusm
14:19Management Committee Dr. Muhammad Jizub
14:23Distinguished Scholar and Speakers
14:25Professor Dr. Chaser Auda
14:30morning
14:32professor Dr. Hi Sri Aimsa Utra morning
14:38Dr. Pakus Riono Mr. Morning
14:44uh Dr.
14:46Rodinal Ky
14:48Kasri
14:50and Professor Akam Aram
14:54the organizing committee. Uh
14:58it is uh it is great honor for me
15:03to deliver this welcome address on
15:05behalf of the directors of UNITAS
15:08Gajamada at the international seminar on
15:11Islamic thought and uh civilization.
15:15On behalf of uh the university, I extend
15:20our warmest greetings and heartfelt
15:25appreciation to all
15:28participants
15:29joining us from various institution and
15:33countries.
15:36This seminars
15:38serve as a meaningful platform for
15:42scholars and practitioners
15:45to explores the richness of Islamic
15:48thought,
15:50reflect upon its timeless contribution
15:54to human civilization
15:58and discuss it uh its relevance to the
16:02challenge of our modern
16:04worlds.
16:07In an era of rapid transformation
16:11socially, technologically and ethically,
16:15it becomes ever more important to
16:18revisit the intellectual, moral and
16:22spiritual foundation that have guided
16:25humanity for Shandoris.
16:32Our hope is that this seminars becomes a
16:36space for productive dialogues,
16:40critical reflection and meaningful
16:43collaboration
16:45leading to ideas that strengthen our
16:48share vision for a civilization grounded
16:51in the knowledge, ethic and human uh
16:54dignity.
16:56On behalf of directors, I would like to
16:59express essentiary appreciation to all
17:01distinguished speakers, the organizing
17:04committee and participant for their
17:07dedication and contribution.
17:10My this seminar bring enlightenment,
17:13inspiration and collective wisdom for
17:16the advancement of Islamic thought and
17:19global civilization. Thank you very
17:21much.
17:36Thank you Mr. Ali Susano PhD for the
17:39welcoming speech.
17:41>> Next a welcoming speech from chair of
17:43the university council of professors
17:46professor Dr. Muhammad Buni Mr.
17:50Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in
17:53welcoming Professor Dr. Mhammedi Mr.
18:06Alhamdulillah.
18:14Alhamdulillah.
18:18Excellencies
18:19director Musaskka Jahada who represent
18:22by director of planning Dr. Alis Santo
18:26PhD
18:28chairman of Machet campus Musaskka
18:30Jahada management committee Dr. Muhammad
18:32Ysu MA distinguished scholars speakers
18:36and moderator professor Dr. Chester AA
18:39founder of Aquasit institute professor
18:43Dr. Dr. Hedi Sri Aim Sabutra Mfield
18:47Dr. Bakus Riono Mr. Dr. M. Radinal Hayer
18:52Hassri Mfield
18:55ladies and gentlemen and also our
18:58colleague here philosopher Dr. Arcomando
19:03who lead the pro prophetic lecture
19:06series inaskka jahada the organizing
19:09committee participant ladies and
19:11gentlemen it is great honor to me to
19:15welcome you all in this uh very
19:17important international seminar
19:20especially because today is uh Sunday
19:22and we uh work uh
19:26very hard in and during the holiday
19:30And this topic is very uh quite
19:33interesting
19:35uh
19:37the Islamic thought and civilization.
19:40And today we gather not only academics,
19:43researcher but also the thinkers and
19:47wisdom activists student
19:51in advancing our knowledge and
19:52understanding rooted values in Islam.
19:56This conference stand a fital platform
19:59for dialogue, a meeting point between
20:02tradition and modernity, between faith
20:05and reason, between local wisdom and
20:07global challenge.
20:09As we face the complexities of the 21st
20:13century, from moral crisis to social
20:15inequalities,
20:17from environmental degradation
20:20to the digital transformation, the
20:22intellectual heritage of Islam offer
20:24timeless cadence and inspiration.
20:29Throughout history, Islamic civilization
20:32illuminate the world with its
20:34contribution to science, philosophy,
20:37arts, governance and ethics. The work of
20:41all scholars like Alfarabi Al-Hazali
20:46Haldun
20:48contemporary thinker continue to inspire
20:50a holistic vision of knowledge that
20:52integrates faith, reason and comparison.
20:56In this spirit, our conferencing
20:59reconnecting our fight, knowledge and
21:02civilization for a sustainable future
21:05invite us to reflect delay on how
21:08Islamic thought can contribute to the
21:10renewal civilization. Today
21:13we aim to rediscover the ethical and
21:18spiritual foundation that can guide
21:20technological progress, social justice
21:24and sustainable development and our
21:26interconnected world.
21:28I hope this
21:31comes up with five
21:34proposal on research collaboration and
21:37action.
21:38For example, the philosophical and
21:41wisdom, science and technology,
21:45socioeconomic and cultural
21:46transformation,
21:48medical and health system,
21:51as well as the environment and global
21:54climate crisis we have to tackle with
21:58the Islamic South and to promote our
22:01better world.
22:03I extend my sincere gratitude to all the
22:06organizers, keynote speakers and
22:09participant who have contributed to
22:11making this event possible. May this
22:14gathering to be filled with insightful
22:17discussion, meaningful collaboration and
22:20renewed commitment to build our better
22:23future. One grounded in the several
22:26values of peace, justice and mercy. Once
22:29again, welcome to this conference. May
22:32Allah bless our effort and grand success
22:35to our daily position.
22:40Thank you very much.
22:44[applause]
22:50>> Thank you professor Dr. Buni Ma for the
22:54welcoming speech.
22:55>> And now we will move to the main
22:57session. Our keynote speakers are
23:00professor Dr. Hedi Sri Ahimra Mfield
23:03from Universityas Gajada, professor Dr.
23:07Jaser Auda from Makosid Institute and
23:10Dr. Busushion Mikol from International
23:13Association of Muslim Psychologist. This
23:16session will be moderated by Dr. M.
23:19Rodinal Hoyer Kosri as Phil Mfield.
23:22>> Before the moderator starts the session,
23:24please allow me to read the short CV of
23:27Dr. Dr. M. Rodinal Herhasri Mfield Dr.
23:30M. Rodinal Herhasri Mfield is a lecturer
23:33in the faculty of philosophy at UNAS.
23:37He obtained his doctoral degree from
23:39univers.
23:41Currently his expertise is in
23:44hermeneutics and philosophy of religion.
23:48Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Dr.
23:51M. Rodinal Hireri Mfield.
23:56>> [applause]
24:33>> Thank you very much for inviting me.
24:35Yeah. And uh trust me as moderator for
24:37this uh very very excellence event. Uh
24:41today we are going to okay together to
24:45discuss a lot of things related to how
24:48we build a connection between scientific
24:50thought. Yeah. The way uh the science
24:53itself develop uh the method and how to
24:57make a bridge between the claim from the
25:01science itself and the metaphysical
25:04claims that okay we easily find yeah in
25:08religious argument for example in uh in
25:13developing or in explaining the nature
25:16itself. Okay. Uh before we start, I
25:20would like to praise to Allah.
25:25Uh because uh because of uh his mercy,
25:29we can gather today. Yeah. And peace and
25:33blessing be upon our below prophet
25:36Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam and
25:38his family and his companions. And thank
25:42you very much Mr. Ellie Zanto
25:46and Professor Buni as your very
25:51excellent welcoming speech and also our
25:55honorable speakers professor Dr. Hades
26:00Ahimsa Putra Dr. Bagus Riono and
26:04Professor Dr. Jaser Auda sorry if I'm
26:09pronouncing your name wrong professor
26:12okay and also all esteemed participants
26:16who has been joined uh today's meetings
26:19welcome to the international seminar on
26:21Islamic thought and civilization with a
26:25specific theme Islamization of knowledge
26:28and Islam as science the future of
26:31Islamic thought as I mentioned before
26:34yeah Why we g here? Because we are
26:37searching and composing the clear path.
26:40Yeah. Methodologically. Yeah. To face so
26:43many challenges, contemporary challenges
26:45that come from not only west itself but
26:49also paradigmatically. Yeah. It comes
26:52from for example neuattheisms,
26:55secularism especially methodological
26:57secularism that avoid to involve
27:00religious authority in doing
27:03observations in terms of scientific
27:05works. Okay. And we hope that today's
27:10discussion will enrich our knowledge.
27:12Yeah. Our experience. Yeah. Because we
27:15have uh three distinguished speaker here
27:17especially Prof. Hades and Prof. Jessa.
27:21So we can take these issues
27:23methodologically and find the clear
27:26parts on that. Okay. Uh before I please
27:30uh the speakers let me introduce briefly
27:35uh one of uh our first speakers
27:37professor Dr. Hedisri aimsa
27:41mil. Profi is widely known for his work
27:44in cultural anthropology, philosophy of
27:47culture and also Islamic civilization
27:50studies and also he's one of the one of
27:53Kunto's popils. Yeah. And uh previously
27:57he read he write uh the commentaries on
28:01Kuntoya's thought and our second speaker
28:06Dr. Bagus Riono Maps Psycholog. He is
28:10president of the International
28:11Association of Muslim Psychologist, a
28:14pionering scholar in Islamic psychology
28:17whose works explore how a psychology can
28:20be grounded in Islamic epistemology and
28:23also spiritual wisdoms. And the last
28:26speakers, Professor Dr. Jaser Auda,
28:30Mjure, PhD. He is the founder of the
28:32Makasit Institute, a worldrenowned
28:36scholar in Islamic thought and systemic
28:38thinking, widely recognized for his
28:41reformulations of makasid al- Sharia as
28:44a dynamic methodology for contemporary
28:46challenges. Please welcome the keynote
28:49speaker, Professor Dr. Hedi Sri Ahim
28:52Saputra. The durations for your
28:54presentations around 15 minutes. Yeah,
28:58we hope that you finish on that time and
29:01the title
29:03he will present prophetic methodology as
29:06the future of Islamic thought. Please
29:08welcome Prophadi.
29:10[applause]
29:25Excellency
29:28Director Anuska
29:30in this case represented by director of
29:33planning Dr. Alis Santo
29:37um chair of professor council professor
29:40Buning
29:42and
29:44my colleagues Mascom Mas Yu
29:48and distinguished guest colleagues
29:58for all of us.
30:01Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah.
30:03Alhamdulillah.
30:24Praise be to Allah who permits us
30:27together today at this honorable
30:29international seminar and thank you very
30:31much for giving me the honor to deliver
30:34the keynote speech here.
30:37Um I was asked by the organizer of this
30:40conference to talk about prophetic
30:43methodology which is actually a hard
30:45topic for me. Yeah, it's difficult
30:48actually but I could not escape. Yeah,
30:50so I have to do that. So I will present
30:53some of my ideas on that topic today. Uh
30:55I hope um
30:58my
31:00powerpoints can be uh presented here.
31:04Uh the first question that may arise is
31:07what is prophetic? I think this is the
31:09question that uh usually have in our
31:12mind when we heard the word prophetic.
31:15Yeah. And what is prophetic methodology
31:19like? As we know prophetic is an English
31:22word. It is from the word prophet which
31:25means nabi or messenger of god. Then we
31:28have prophecy which means related to
31:31prophet and which also means prediction
31:34forecast. Prophetic also means having
31:37characters of prophet or related to
31:39prophet. And methodology is the science
31:42of methods. It is this methodology that
31:47distinguishes science from non-science.
31:51The second question is why are we
31:54discussing prophetic science and
31:56methodology at UGM
31:59Kajamada University? A brief history of
32:02the on the emergence of prophetic
32:04science development activities at UGM
32:08need to be given.
32:10uh as we know some of us maybe already
32:13know that the pioneer of the prophetic
32:16science at UGM was professor Ktoo late
32:20professor Ktoyo a professor of history
32:23at the faculty of cultural sciences
32:26faculty
32:29in the late 1980s and early 1990s this
32:34is as far as I know at the time there
32:36was a sense of unease or urgency
32:40among Indonesian Muslim intellectuals
32:43concerning the social, political and
32:46scient scientific developments in the
32:48country in Indonesia under the new
32:51order.
32:53There was a spirituality or
32:55transcendency that was perceived to be
32:58missing in university education.
33:02Mascunto apparently experienced the
33:04same. He then wrote some books in which
33:07he laid out his main ideas about Islam
33:09and science from which sprang his view
33:12of Islam as a science. From his writings
33:15the terms prophetic social sciences and
33:18the paradigm of Islam or Islam as a
33:21paradigm emerged. Sadly
33:25Muskto was called to meet his lord
33:28before he could fully read down write
33:30down all his ideas. Please uh next
33:34slide. So um yeah these are the
33:37questions that at the time we have and
33:41also the urgency that some of my friends
33:45had uh in
33:49early
33:50late 1980s early 1990s at the time. So
33:56there was kind of spiritual spirituality
33:59that was lost in UGM when you stood when
34:02you studied at UGM and you are real
34:05Muslim you'll ask where is the Quran
34:08where is the hadith in our discourse in
34:11the classroom such
34:14questions yeah arise at that time arise
34:16at that time okay uh further next please
34:21now and at the time uh the trend is that
34:25uh we separate science and religion.
34:29Religion is religion. Yeah. You do that
34:31in the mosque. Yeah. Science is in the
34:34classroom in the university. So um we
34:37really make separation this uh two room.
34:41Yeah. And Mastoya
34:44proposed a different way of looking at
34:47Islam. Uh a new perspective which we
34:50call a new paradigm. Ljud.
34:54Now this is Masunto, a picture of him
34:58and he proposed uh that um religion is
35:03not opposed to science. Yeah. And Islam
35:06is science. Islam is a paradigm. Yeah.
35:10And you know at that time the word
35:12paradigm is not yet quite familiar.
35:15Although Thomas Kun has written his book
35:18in 1960s but the word paradigm becoming
35:22popular Indonesia that's around early
35:251980s yeah and that was the time when
35:28Masunto wrote his books and the ideas
35:31were seen as an alternative to western
35:33ideas of science and religion and these
35:37are the ideas that we try to develop
35:40today at UTM Langjot.
35:44uh and these are the uh intellectual
35:48thinkers uh who had inspired yeah
35:53masundto to write his book that is
35:55Muhammad Ibal and Roshi Shro from uh
35:59France Lanjut and these are the books
36:03that Mascundal wrote at that time and it
36:07was really new perspective uh I don't
36:10know whether some of you have already I
36:12hope Um many of you have read this book.
36:16It's interesting. Okay. Masunto appar
36:20apparently experienced the same and then
36:22wrote uh some books. Yeah. And then
36:25because Masunto passed away some of my
36:29friends contacted me. Yeah. Uh profan
36:37from faculty of economics. Yeah. They
36:39asked me further to develop Mascunto's
36:42thought which really surprised me. Uh
36:46because although I knew Masunto well, I
36:48had never discussed the topics he wrote
36:51in his books. I knew Masunto more as a
36:54historian and a literary figure rather
36:58than as the initiator of prophetic
37:00science. I was entirely unaware of
37:03Masunto's thoughts on Islam as a science
37:06and prophetic social science. So I
37:08didn't really know that Mascunto wrote
37:11this book at that time. Only after I was
37:14contacted by some of my friends and u I
37:16told them if you ask me to write more
37:19about Masunto's ideas please give me
37:22some of his books. Then I was given some
37:25of Mascunto's books on these topics.
37:27Yeah. Then I tried to develop further
37:30his thought and I could not refuse the
37:34request after hearing the story about
37:36why I was chosen by my friends to
37:38develop Masundto's ideas on Islam and
37:41science and they asked me to write a
37:43book on that topic. Okay. Ljun
37:46uh yeah at the time uh we did have kind
37:51of uh homework from Masundto led us to
37:55develop further the prophetic paradigm
37:58develop further Islam as a paradigm
38:00develop and complete the prophetic
38:02social science. This is the idea of
38:05Masunto at that time and apply the
38:07prophetic social science to transform
38:10the social, cultural, political,
38:12economic system for the people because
38:16um Masunto and his friends especially
38:20from some of you may knows Chama
38:22Salahudin. Yeah, there was um well-known
38:26Jamaa who took care of the
38:30students Muslim activities in Galang at
38:33the time. Uh then they moved to Masid
38:36campus. Yeah. A new place. Yeah. Then
38:40uh we have now in Masid campus two kinds
38:43of activities related to science and
38:45Islam. The first is Islamic
38:49Islam isization of science and Islam
38:53scientification of Islam. This is the
38:56idea that was uh started by Masundo at
38:58the time because Masundo cannot could
39:02not agree fully with the word
39:04Islamization of science and I agree with
39:06him. So we try to um uh develop the
39:11second one El Musasi Islam or
39:13scientification Islam but uh we actually
39:17in Kajamada and Mas campus
39:22work together or have executive together
39:26and um we know that it really develop
39:30and Mas Arcom is the head of that
39:33activities and then I wrote a
39:39um which title is paradic Islam
39:43epistemology ethos and model so this is
39:46um the development further of mascto's
39:49thought on Islam as science and Islam as
39:52a paradigm in that book I had to
39:55highlight several aspects that were
39:57still lacking in Muskto's thinking
39:59because only in this way could I say
40:02that I had I had developed Muskunto's
40:04idea that were unfinished
40:06And there I talk about the the
40:08epistemology ethos and model within the
40:12prophetic paradigm that we were
40:13developing. These three elements as we
40:16know are fundamental components of a
40:19paradigm.
40:21Of course, of course they were not
40:23enough. After establishing the
40:25philosophical foundations, what was
40:27needed next was methodology.
40:30This is where a bigger problem lies
40:32because method methodology is strongly
40:35determined by the object of the study
40:38formulation of research questions or our
40:40hypothesis and the instruments we use.
40:44Methodology also serves as a connection
40:47between the object studied and the
40:50knowledge gained about the that object.
40:54On the other hand, we know that the
40:55material objects of each discipline
40:58differ from one another and therefore it
41:02is impossible to have a single
41:03methodology for all prophetic
41:06disciplines.
41:07For example,
41:09prophetic legal studies are different
41:11from prophetic economic studies even
41:13though both are classified as prophetic
41:16social sciences. Thus, their methods
41:20will also differ. Likewise, the
41:23methodology of prophetic agricultural
41:24science will not be the same as that
41:27[clears throat] prophetic medical
41:28science. Even though both belong to the
41:31prophetic natural sciences, a unified
41:34med methodology is only possible at a
41:39abstract level if not a very abstract
41:42one and therefore it is very likely to
41:45become not quite operational for
41:47research. to be truly operational its
41:50methodology must be developed by experts
41:54in its discipline. This is my view.
41:57Yeah. Just concerning methodology, I can
41:59only present some general points. Uh a
42:02lot of questions Yeah. was given to me
42:05about the methodology and have said that
42:09um this is not easy because each
42:12discipline has its own methodology.
42:15Yeah, we need methodology as a means to
42:18obtain knowledge about the world. The
42:21question is what is the nature of the
42:23world from the perspective of prophetic
42:26science or what is the compos system of
42:28the world in prophetic science and how
42:32that world look like?
42:34What is prophetic science? Before
42:36answering this question, we need to
42:38recall that methodology is one of the
42:40elements that differentiates science
42:43from knowledge.
42:45Science is obtained by applying clear
42:48research methods and procedures which
42:51can be examined and repeated.
42:54Prophetic science simply put can be
42:56understood as knowledge such as that
42:58possessed by the prophets. Why we choose
43:02the prophets? Because as believers who
43:05believe in the ex existence of Allah
43:08subhana wa t'ala the creator of the
43:10universe and everything within it. We
43:13believe that God Allah has sent one of
43:16his servants a human being to deliver
43:18messages and provide guidance to
43:20humankind so that they may serve in this
43:23life and in the hereafter.
43:25This chosen person is what we call a
43:27prophet. So he is the best person in the
43:31world in his time. In prophetic science
43:34we have a model of the world that
43:37differs from the model in contemporary
43:38science which can be illustrated as
43:41follows. Ljut
43:43uh ljud
43:46lut
43:48this is our model of the world simple
43:51model. We have Allah subhana wa ta'ala
43:54and then we have prophet and we have
43:56human beings and then we have nature. I
44:00don't think we have such model in our
44:02discussion in the classroom in the
44:04universities. Usually we have only
44:06nature and human being. That's what we
44:09have to model. Yeah. But we don't
44:11include prophet and Allah subhana tala.
44:15Yeah. There are two those two things are
44:17outside our discourse in um in the
44:21classroom in uh university such the mod
44:26such of yeah such model of the word does
44:29not exist in conventional science. The
44:31sciences we learn at universities such
44:34as UBM are not related to the prophet
44:37and God. Our conventional model of the
44:40world consists of only human beings and
44:42nature. Prophetic knowledge posed by by
44:45a prophet is knowledge about the world
44:47both empirical and non-empirical
44:51as well as about humankind. Part of this
44:54knowledge is obtained through
44:56experience, social life, communication
44:59with other human beings. Others are
45:02given directly by the God who sent him.
45:06What might uh the prophetic view of the
45:09world be like? I attempt to formulate it
45:11based on my reading and interpretation
45:14of the writings of Sultanu Aliyah Abdul
45:18Kad alani. May God sanctify his secret
45:22in his book secret of secrets. Based on
45:25his exposition, I distinguish the world
45:28or cosmos into four realms.
45:36Oh yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. So we have four
45:39realms. First the sense word or the out
45:43world outworld word alamah the cognized
45:48world the world of words and meanings.
45:51The world of God's words,
45:54not sense but experience and the world
45:57of non-existence and fa prophets and
46:02chosen individuals may obtain knowledge
46:04about all four realms but only knowledge
46:07of the first two is normally conveyed or
46:11can be conveyed to others. knowledge
46:14about the third lump sometimes can be
46:17conferred while the fourth cannot be
46:19conferred to others. Yeah. Because human
46:22language is incapable of containing what
46:26is known about that role.
46:29And then we have um
46:32uh model about um
46:37science. Yeah. With such a model of the
46:39world, the prophetic knowledge that we
46:41are now conceptualizing
46:42consists of
46:46elun
46:48divinely inspired knowledge and then
46:51Quran based on hadith based science
46:56based science science and knowledge.
47:00Laduni elm or elmuni simply define
47:04refers to information obtained directly
47:07quote unquote from Allah the creator.
47:11Science refers to information obtained
47:14by applying certain replicable methods
47:16and procedures and knowledge refers to
47:18information obtained without following
47:21specific replicable methods and
47:23procedures.
47:24In the time of the prophet Muhammad
47:26sallallahu alaihi wasallam, prophetic
47:27knowledge did not yet include categories
47:30two and three.
47:42Sorry. Yeah. Yes.
47:45So we have that um knowledge. Actually I
47:49tried to categorize into five. You may
47:52disagree with the kind of
47:53categorizations. This is really um
47:56preliminary categorization. Yeah. And we
47:59know that um in the time of the prophet
48:02Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam
48:03prophetic knowledge did not yet include
48:04categories two and three because it was
48:07um uh still on prophet Muhammad who had
48:11it yeah who had that knowledge at that
48:13time. Those fields emerge only after the
48:16prophet passed away. This type of
48:18knowledge above is has its own
48:20methodology except category five. Here I
48:24will en elaborate on the methodology of
48:27categories two and three that is Quran
48:30peace science and hadith peace science
48:32as well as kapuning science. To do this
48:37we begin with one important element in
48:39the scientific paradigm and that is
48:41keyword. In the past keywords did not re
48:45receive much attention. Yeah. But today
48:49without knowing the keywords we would
48:51become lost and confused in the vast
48:54jungle of science. Keyword is the
48:56compass that directs where we are
48:58heading in research. Keyword along with
49:01its definition and explanations is our
49:04main guide in doing research. If we as
49:07Muslims agree that the Quran is the
49:10greatest book on earth and the words
49:13within it are the words of Allah, then
49:17the Quran contains the most excellent
49:20keywords
49:22through which we can study the word in
49:25far deeper ways than what currently
49:28exist. As we know in ordinary scientific
49:32research, keywords always play a very
49:35important role. Research can only be
49:38carried out if we know and understand
49:41the definitions of the key terms and
49:44their explanations.
49:46Since I've been asked to present the
49:48methodology of prophetic science, I will
49:50briefly outline here to give an idea
49:52what such a method methodology might
49:55look like. However, it should be noted
49:58that what I'm presenting here is a
50:00preliminary version. It needs a book to
50:03fully explain the methodology I'm
50:05talking about here. The methodological
50:08step in building prophetic science are
50:11as follows. First,
50:15yeah, identify and choose the keywords
50:19from the Quran or the Hadith, whether
50:22they come from a phrase, sentence,
50:24verse, stories, discourse that capture
50:28our interest. Once identified, we use
50:31the keywords to formulate research
50:33questions or formulate hypothesis to be
50:36tested. This research question or
50:39hypothesis should truly align with our
50:41interest so that we can remain motivated
50:44throughout the re research process. The
50:47third stage is to define the keywords
50:49and explain the meaning of the
50:51definitions because a definition by
50:54itself may not always be clear in
50:57meaning nor automatically operational.
51:00Based on the definition and its
51:02explanation, the keyword can then be
51:04used in the research and become
51:07operational. The result of the re rearch
51:10of this research is of course knowledge
51:12about the world but knowledge that
51:15originates from concept derived from the
51:19Quran. In this way we will able to view
51:22the world through our interpretation of
51:25Quranic keywords. By doing so, files
51:29that have unknowingly covered our mind's
51:31eye may be lifted, allowing us to see
51:33the world from a new perspective. This
51:37is what we call seeing the world from
51:40the Quranic perspective or more
51:42precisely seeing the world through our
51:45interpretation of the Quran's keywords.
51:49What is the difference then between this
51:51approach and the Quranices of Taser as
51:55we know today? The difference in my view
51:58is lies in the fact that existing
52:01exogesis has not yet applied Quranic
52:04keywords to empirical research. I might
52:07be wrong in this case because I don't
52:09read all of uh result of research um uh
52:13about Quran and hatit and so forth. So
52:15you may correct me in this case.
52:17research that is very recurs in its
52:20method and procedures aimed at producing
52:23new knowledge new knowledge that can
52:25bring benefit to humanity.
52:27Of course to conduct this uh research of
52:30this kind several requirements must be
52:34fulfilled. Yeah, this include lanjud.
52:39Uh this is the picture of the structure
52:41of the paradigm.
52:43uh which I mean we have to know about
52:45this and we want to develop uh prophetic
52:49paradigm because uh without know without
52:52knowing what a paradigm is I don't think
52:55we can develop what uh call prophetic
52:58paradigm loot
53:01and yeah
53:04these are the methodical steps
53:08uh okay um
53:12Now requirement yeah that to do this
53:18kind of research we need to know
53:20Indonesian, Arabic and English. Yeah. Uh
53:24because this is the language that we
53:26need to use uh in our sers um using
53:31prophetic paradigm. Yeah. So and then we
53:34have the knowledge of scientific
53:35paradigm that is the picture that uh
53:38I've shown and scientific methods and
53:40procedures. Of course, we know already
53:42about this. And then knowledge of a
53:44particle scientific discipline. We all
53:46know this. And knowledge of the
53:47state-of-the-art of that discipline,
53:49which is not always the case with art.
53:51Yeah. So, if you want to develop
53:53prophetic science at the UGM, then we
53:55have to collaborate with colleagues from
53:57Western Asia study uh western Asia
54:01program in the faculty of cultural
54:03sciences for they are the ones who study
54:06Arabic and deaf. other requirements
54:09requirements are the same as those the
54:12disciplines that we already have in at
54:15uh OKM this ends my practical
54:19presentation of the methodology of
54:21prophetic science I'm sorry for being
54:23unable to discuss the more theoretical
54:26and philosophical issues as well yeah as
54:30well uh and questions that may arise
54:32here due to our limited time hopefully
54:35what I have shared here a simple
54:37illustration
54:38of what we mean by prophetic science and
54:40methodology will spark our interest in
54:44developing this new field more seriously
54:46formally institutionally and
54:49systematically at UGM so that its result
54:52will be more visible and its benefits
54:54more tangible. Thank you very much for
54:57all your attentional
55:05could you sit here.
55:09Okay. Next we are going to hear the
55:13presentations
55:14uh from the the second speaker Dr. Bagus
55:19Riono Masikol.
55:22Please welcome Dr. Bagustrio
55:26please the floor is yours
55:30and his talk is titled Islam as a
55:32science in psychology. Okay please
55:35welcome but Dr. Bagus [applause]
56:01Okay.
56:02Okay. I'm sorry. Uh
56:05in terms of
56:08the correlations, yeah, between
56:10Professer and Mr. Bagu's materials, we
56:15please you to to take your seat, please,
56:19and okay. present your materials. Please
56:21welcome Professer Auda.
56:24[applause]
56:50So how long how long do I have?
56:52>> Yeah. Uh around 20 minutes professor.
56:57Okay.
57:08How about this?
57:36Is it
57:43better?
57:48>> Yes. Now it's
57:52Alhamdulillah.
58:13I am really honored.
58:16Dear my brothers and sisters and
58:19dignitaries and excellencies,
58:21professors, our teachers and our
58:23students, I am really honored
58:27uh to be invited uh to this event and I
58:31really enjoyed the presentation before
58:33and in I will enjoy the presentation
58:35after as usual and um it is a very
58:40important topic
58:43on the future of Islamic thought and
58:47issues of methodology and science and
58:51how can we think about that from an
58:53Islamic point of view.
58:56Um, speaking before Gaza
59:00is different from speaking after Gaza.
59:05uh speaking before the last two years on
59:08methodology and science and the ummah
59:13and its role in the world is different
59:18from speaking now
59:22as things are developing in the world in
59:25a way
59:27that shows the need of our um and the
59:32need of its book and the need of its
59:35values and its way of life. As someone
59:40who comes to you from the west, I could
59:43tell you that as western citizens,
59:48we discovered the major lies that we
59:54have been living over the past century,
59:57especially one century. The lies about
1:00:01the international order and
1:00:04international law and dignity and human
1:00:07rights and international
1:00:11courts and standards and development
1:00:16and the supremacy of western culture and
1:00:21I'm not speaking just as a Muslim also
1:00:24as a western person
1:00:26how we discovered that we are members of
1:00:33an empire that we do not want to be part
1:00:36of. Um I am speaking on behalf of every
1:00:41decent uh western person but also as a
1:00:46Muslim who lives there and considers
1:00:49myself to be uh part of that
1:00:52civilization
1:00:54by living not by origin.
1:00:58The world is in need of Islam, my
1:01:01brothers and sisters, and we cannot help
1:01:05the world out of its crisis
1:01:09without going back to the genuine source
1:01:13of Islam, the book of Allah and the
1:01:16Sunnah of his messenger sallallahu
1:01:18alaihi wasallam. Sunnah is different
1:01:20from hadith by the way, but that's
1:01:22difficult topic. The sunnah of Muhammad
1:01:25hadith could be but sunnah is the way of
1:01:29Muhammad. The the tradition of him that
1:01:32is confirmed.
1:01:34The world needs the Quran and Sunnah for
1:01:37us to have a better future as humanity.
1:01:43The
1:01:45white supremacist western civilization
1:01:50has been
1:01:52disintegrating over the past few decades
1:01:56and I know this is a bit of a political
1:01:59introduction but I think it's important
1:02:02to see the context of the depth of
1:02:05renewal that we need.
1:02:08It has been disintegrating from a
1:02:11Euroamerican Russian northern kind of
1:02:14civilization that is attacking the
1:02:16Muslim world. Perhaps here in the far
1:02:19east part of Asia, you had different
1:02:22attacks from your north. But the the
1:02:25rest of the Ummah had attacks militarily
1:02:29and most important culturally from the
1:02:32north. Eventually
1:02:35the north has disintegrated. The
1:02:37Russians went to a different place and
1:02:41they eventually themselves fell and
1:02:44retreated from many of the Muslim parts
1:02:48from the former Soviet parts the other
1:02:52and Pakistan etc. They are still now in
1:02:56Tataristan and Crimea and so on. But
1:02:59they retreated and then they split
1:03:03eventually between them and the
1:03:05Euroamerican Empire. So the empire
1:03:08became uh English and French of course
1:03:12building on the inheritance of the
1:03:14Portuguese and the Dutch and the Spanish
1:03:18and the Italians etc. um who invaded
1:03:22North Africa invaded all the way to here
1:03:24this part of the world. But then the
1:03:26Euroamerican empire has been
1:03:28disintegrating recently especially under
1:03:32the
1:03:34um the the corruption of the political
1:03:37systems and I'm speaking about the west
1:03:40where I come from and the corruption of
1:03:44the political systems and giving
1:03:46priority of Zionist agendas over their
1:03:50national agendas and converting
1:03:53western Euroamerican
1:03:56civilization into banana republics for
1:04:00the sake of Zionism and then eventually
1:04:03splitting the European versus the
1:04:05American part of that white supremacy
1:04:10um empire and now it's only an American
1:04:13empire and recently and I come from
1:04:16Canada we're talking about separating
1:04:19within the American empire California in
1:04:21a different place and Texas and the
1:04:24Democrats and the Republic Republicans
1:04:26are becoming two different religions and
1:04:29two different ideologies and so on. What
1:04:32I am saying is that the attack on the
1:04:34Muslim Ummah was sometimes directly in
1:04:38military means and sometimes indirectly
1:04:42using agents, using functional states
1:04:46like the state that's called Israel
1:04:48these days sometimes and some of the
1:04:51Arab governments and some of the
1:04:54institutions that were used as proxy
1:04:59institutions for white supremacy. empire
1:05:02and sometimes and most importantly the
1:05:05attack was cultural in the sense that
1:05:08the Muslim ummah is attacked culturally.
1:05:11It is required to change the definition
1:05:14of the world from what Islam is defining
1:05:17it to what secularism is defining
1:05:20defining it and therefore Islam becomes
1:05:23a religion rather than a deen. Dean is a
1:05:27way of life but um dana or religion is a
1:05:32faith is something in the mosque and
1:05:35therefore I really appreciate the
1:05:38presentation before me that has to do
1:05:40with looking at Islam as a science and
1:05:43looking at science as part of Islam etc.
1:05:47But I would go further by saying that we
1:05:50need to revise the way we disciplinize
1:05:54knowledge and the way we define
1:05:56knowledge because the way we define
1:05:59knowledge now is contrary to the Quranic
1:06:02worldview.
1:06:04We define knowledge as religious
1:06:06knowledge versus scientific knowledge.
1:06:08The religious knowledge is metaphysics
1:06:12if you're going to speak Latin. that has
1:06:14to do with the u myths of the religions
1:06:19uh and according to your faith and
1:06:21everyone could profess whatever faith
1:06:24faith in a like dorman world um truth is
1:06:28self proclaimed and self-actualized
1:06:32etc versus the science that is supposed
1:06:35to be positive and empirical and factual
1:06:40in Islam it's actually the other way
1:06:42around it is Islam that is factual and
1:06:46the words of Allah and the sunnah of his
1:06:48messenger that are truths in their own
1:06:51right and science is just a theory. The
1:06:55phenomena is a fact but to explain the
1:06:59phenomena with science is a theoretical
1:07:03uh and
1:07:05hypothetical exercise. The fact that
1:07:09throwing this on the ground the object
1:07:12will fall that is a fact. But gravity is
1:07:14just a theory and there are actually
1:07:16five six theories of gravity not just
1:07:19one. There is the Newtonian theory that
1:07:22is built on the Bulhikma in Baghdad and
1:07:26Newton had read this in Latin and he
1:07:28developed equations uh on top of the
1:07:31Bulhikma and then there is Einsteinian
1:07:34world in which this falls because of the
1:07:37space-time gaps and then there is the
1:07:40quantum physics now they want to
1:07:42introduce a different theory for gravity
1:07:45and then gravity is just a theory and I
1:07:48chose gravity for our students here to
1:07:51uh revise the most basics of theories.
1:07:54Let alone the theory of the
1:07:57stratification of society according to
1:08:01economic stratas or the theory of
1:08:05development and growth in economy and so
1:08:09forth and everything that has to do with
1:08:12these curves uh of supply and demand
1:08:16etc. and the theory of human rights as I
1:08:20mentioned and dignity and international
1:08:22system and so forth let alone also the
1:08:26theories that have to do with medicine
1:08:30and the definition of the human being
1:08:33and defining a psychological disorder my
1:08:36friend and brother Dr. Bagus will talk
1:08:38about that. Just theories that are based
1:08:41on atheist usually and sometimes
1:08:46neo-Christian kind of philosophy. uh
1:08:50Freud was an aftheist guy and if you
1:08:53read his book you'll be surprised how
1:08:56Freudianism became an a paradigm to
1:08:59define psychology and how the complexes
1:09:03of the child the boy with his mother and
1:09:06the girl with her father and how these
1:09:08complexes develop a a science and an
1:09:12interpretation of reality and basing
1:09:15everything that the human being does on
1:09:17sexual desires. This is atheism. This is
1:09:20not how Islam deals with anifs. The
1:09:24Quran and the nfs and prophet will talk
1:09:27about that is a very different story
1:09:28from that. Uh look at how a nation state
1:09:33is defined in political science and the
1:09:35sovereignty and people and borders and
1:09:37all of that and the the hobbesian
1:09:41definition. um how it developed from
1:09:45something that has to do with um
1:09:48minimizing wars and so on. Allah the
1:09:51Europeans and the Germans in West Villia
1:09:54when they propose these kinds of ideas
1:09:57for the sake of well signing the end of
1:10:00the Roman Empire finally and dividing
1:10:03Europe in a way so that Europe doesn't
1:10:05continue to fight. how this developed
1:10:08into the Hobbesian
1:10:12beast or dragon that that Hobbes talked
1:10:14about and how this has nothing to do
1:10:19with Islam defining what's called alukum
1:10:22or governance or state it's not about
1:10:26that and how we ended up taking the
1:10:31worst ideas in the political science to
1:10:35or heritage of Mikavilli politics is
1:10:38very Mikavilleian now and even post
1:10:40Mikavilian into some really strange
1:10:43clownish kind of behavior
1:10:46um and and that is quite problematic
1:10:49when it comes to what Islam calls al-Hum
1:10:52so what Islam calls an is a very
1:10:54different science what Islam calls
1:10:56al-Hum or governance very different
1:10:58science look at the way we defined
1:11:00architecture and in Islam it was
1:11:04something that grows goes organically
1:11:06with the people. It is something that
1:11:08has uh writings on the wall and arts and
1:11:13domes etc. different parts of the Muslim
1:11:16civilization developed an art of
1:11:19building uh buildings not just mosques
1:11:23buildings and cities and so forth and
1:11:26how we are invaded or we were invaded
1:11:30with French modernism. Lov
1:11:34said that writing on the wall is savage
1:11:37uh savage in in in French and uh domes
1:11:41and minates are savage and so on and
1:11:44therefore you go to the heart of the
1:11:46Muslim world and it's just glass
1:11:48buildings with air conditioning in the
1:11:50middle of the desert. how this has cut
1:11:54the social system of tribalism and how
1:11:58it converted the family into an atomic
1:12:01family living in a one or twobedroom as
1:12:04we do in Europe and the west we are
1:12:06doing now that in the heart of the
1:12:08Muslim land and all over and how this
1:12:12transformed architecture how it
1:12:14transformed the societies into modern
1:12:18postmodern even societies that uh
1:12:22disintegrated the family and tribal
1:12:25system for the sake of industries and
1:12:28jobs and so on. Look at the economic
1:12:31value in Islam. What Islam defines as
1:12:34mal is value. Money is a value. Uh money
1:12:38is not a piece of paper. Now the piece
1:12:41of paper is even a digital number on the
1:12:44screen. And whenever the Americans want
1:12:46more trillions, they press a button and
1:12:48they create tens of trillions of
1:12:50dollars. And therefore, everyone in the
1:12:54world pays, everyone who has a dollar in
1:12:56his pocket pays for the $21 trillion
1:12:59that Obama created by pressing that
1:13:02button because he wanted to solve his
1:13:04banking problems. And everywhere in the
1:13:06world is this is not the Islamic system.
1:13:09In Islamic system is called ribba, it's
1:13:11called Bak. In Islam, we have a
1:13:13difference between
1:13:16andba
1:13:20and ribba is trading in money and
1:13:23creating money out of nothing. A dinar
1:13:26for two dinars is ribba and two dinars
1:13:28out of nothing is also ribba. And we are
1:13:31creating this value and based on how big
1:13:35the state how big the the guns of the
1:13:38state the value of the currency is going
1:13:41to be. Nobody said that this is Islamic
1:13:46and to apologize for that within an
1:13:48Islamic system is one way of doing
1:13:51politics, one way of doing education.
1:13:54But um the the general message of what
1:13:57I'm trying to do to to say today is that
1:14:00we should be post that we should depost
1:14:03apologism and Islamization and so on
1:14:06because whether we like it or not the
1:14:09hegemonic powers are disintegrating
1:14:12and the hegemonic systems are going to
1:14:15face major crisis based on the way the
1:14:19dominant civilization
1:14:21uh you can add an s if you wish to
1:14:24civilizations are behaving these days.
1:14:26Um, of course, we're seeing the worst in
1:14:30again the white supremacist western
1:14:31civilization, but because of the way
1:14:34they are behaving, they are signing the
1:14:37end of their hedgeimonyy. And yes,
1:14:40towards the end of the death of any
1:14:43beast, there is a dance that the beast
1:14:46could do and there is a violence that
1:14:47the beast could show. But there is a
1:14:50problem uh in that civilization. So as
1:14:54someone who comes from that part of the
1:14:56world to a Muslim environment here
1:14:59speaking in a Muslim uh conference I
1:15:02would advise my brothers and sisters to
1:15:05go beyond the paradigm uh that is
1:15:08dominant to go beyond the economic
1:15:11political cultural paradigm not just in
1:15:15social sciences but also in hard
1:15:17sciences and applied sciences.
1:15:19Engineering is not free of values and
1:15:22philosophy and religion. AI is not a
1:15:25neutral tool. AI is is a machine is a
1:15:28company or companies that are trying to
1:15:31make profits. They gave us the app for
1:15:34free and they become trillionaires and
1:15:36billionaires because they are selling
1:15:38our information and our data and spying
1:15:41on our locations and and that's why the
1:15:43app is free but the founder of the app
1:15:47or Apple now is in the trillions because
1:15:52the paradigm the economic paradigm is
1:15:54not separate from the scientific
1:15:56paradigm and the AI tools and the
1:15:59medical tools and The transportation
1:16:03tools these are not value free. They are
1:16:05based on a hedgeimonyy on an economic
1:16:08system and a political system and a
1:16:10legal system local and international
1:16:13that we have to be aware of its problems
1:16:16from the Islamic perspective and we have
1:16:18to take a bolder approach in order to
1:16:23change the world towards the better. The
1:16:25world needs Islam and many Muslims
1:16:29prefer to die with the dying empire and
1:16:33that's up to them. But speaking to
1:16:35sincere Muslims and speaking with people
1:16:38who are sincerely believers in the book
1:16:41of Allah and the sunnah of Muhammad
1:16:43sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Um we need
1:16:46to take a bolder approach to the
1:16:49revision of science, the revision of
1:16:51disciplines. The division of natural
1:16:55applied social sciences and humanities
1:16:58is um secular by definition. And if you
1:17:02want to take an Islamic approach, you
1:17:04need to revise that. Um, in humble books
1:17:08of mine, I proposed that we start to
1:17:11disciplinize education based on
1:17:13phenomena rather than disciplines.
1:17:16Because if you study poverty versus the
1:17:191%, that is a very different study from
1:17:22studying economics. Poverty versus the
1:17:251% is real science from the Islamic
1:17:28point of view because you will look at
1:17:32the dimensions, the economic dimensions.
1:17:34Yes. But you will look at the legal
1:17:36dimensions of the phenomena of poverty,
1:17:40the cultural dam dimensions, the
1:17:43political dimensions. You will look at
1:17:45the environmental dimensions. Poverty is
1:17:47linked to the environment. It's not just
1:17:49a phenomena that is because of lack of
1:17:53growth or unemployment. This is very
1:17:56very shallow and very very occupied by a
1:18:01paradigm that's not the Islamic
1:18:03paradigm. Um, if we look at poverty
1:18:06versus the 1% versus economics, then we
1:18:10are going to be able to produce Islamic
1:18:13economics that is not apologetic for the
1:18:16capitalist system and its crimes. If we
1:18:19look at sickness or illness as a
1:18:22phenomena, not necessarily through
1:18:24medical sciences, even though medical
1:18:26sciences are part of it, but how do you
1:18:29define health in a comprehensive way, in
1:18:31an Islamic way? How do you define
1:18:33illness in an Islamic way? Allah subhana
1:18:36t in the first
1:18:38page in he mentioned
1:18:42they have a sickness in their heart.
1:18:44This is not the muscle of the heart.
1:18:47This is the layers of the that are
1:18:50different from the muscles. We need to
1:18:52define sickness in a comprehensive way.
1:18:56Not just the muscles and the bones and
1:18:58the chemistry and the genetics. This is
1:19:00a very narrow definition of medicine.
1:19:02But medicine is al yes but there is a
1:19:06layer of andal
1:19:09and and there are many concepts in the
1:19:12Quran that define the human being in a
1:19:15different way and therefore defines
1:19:16health versus malignancy or illness in a
1:19:20very different way. When we look at
1:19:23phenomena in the world of tyranny or
1:19:28despotism versus justice and fairness,
1:19:33we are not just looking at political
1:19:35science because political science is not
1:19:38really concerned about the question of
1:19:40justice and fairness. Um or it is at the
1:19:45core how to maintain power and how to
1:19:49maintain stability. the objectives of
1:19:51the science is different from what it is
1:19:53in Islam. And therefore, if we look at
1:19:55the phenomena of tyranny versus the
1:19:57phenomena of fairness and justice
1:19:59movements, then we are dealing with a
1:20:02very different political science. Um
1:20:04this is what time would allow for me to
1:20:07um share some ideas. uh I had long list
1:20:11of slides and so on and a book even to
1:20:14uh show you but inshallah I will leave
1:20:16the book for those who are interested to
1:20:17read in a PDF with the organizers and
1:20:20the slides as well. This is the gist of
1:20:23my contribution the humble contribution
1:20:26in this once again really appreciate
1:20:29your invitation and I hope that these
1:20:33ideas are useful somehow.
1:20:41Thank you very much.
1:20:44We are going to hear presentation from
1:20:48Dr. Babus. Time is yours.
1:20:54Thank you.
1:21:03Alhamdulillah.
1:21:16uh first of all I will I would like to
1:21:18uh
1:21:20um inform you that actually I am the pil
1:21:23of proof Jaser so that's why I don't
1:21:25want to speak first [laughter]
1:21:29uh and what I'm going to
1:21:32uh present actually is just part of the
1:21:38um meth uh part of the application of
1:21:41the method
1:21:43uh what is called as makoset method
1:21:45methodology uh to psychology so it's
1:21:49focus on psychology
1:21:51uh can
1:21:54uh put the slide on yeah okay so um
1:21:58[clears throat]
1:21:59first of all be before we
1:22:02uh before I present my um ideas here. I
1:22:06would like to say that uh what I'm doing
1:22:11here, I'm trying to integrate trying to
1:22:13integrate the
1:22:16Islamic paradigm from the Quranic
1:22:19messages
1:22:21uh into the the science of psychology.
1:22:23So that's why maybe it's not
1:22:26uh you know it's not perfect because I
1:22:28still use some
1:22:31you know term from the psychology
1:22:33science psychological science but I'm
1:22:36I'm starting with the paradigm from the
1:22:40Islamic from the Quranic messages. So
1:22:43how how can we do that? So next slide
1:22:46please. So how how to start actually uh
1:22:51from professor's book there's a a meth
1:22:54uh framework yeah uh steps there steps
1:22:59in in doing the masc method but I'm I'm
1:23:01trying to try make it simple so it's uh
1:23:04convenient for for me to explain in this
1:23:08uh seminar next slide. [clears throat]
1:23:11So we have three things when we try to
1:23:15develop any discipline or uh knowledge
1:23:18about any discipline. Uh first actually
1:23:21first is the purpose. We have to have
1:23:23the purpose. What what why should we
1:23:26learn about psychology for example but
1:23:28then [clears throat]
1:23:30uh
1:23:31we also have to define the object of
1:23:33study of psychology. So that's the the
1:23:36keyword maybe uh refer to prof
1:23:40the these are the key words that we
1:23:41should keep in keep in mind when we're
1:23:44trying to construct the science of
1:23:46psychology from the Islamist
1:23:48perspective. And the third is the
1:23:50method. The method here has multi-
1:23:53layers. Yeah. But I'm trying to what
1:23:56what I meant by the what I mean by the
1:23:58method here is the method to achieve the
1:24:01purpose. Okay. So this is I try to make
1:24:03it uh simple here. Okay. Now we start
1:24:06with the object of study. Uh next slide.
1:24:11Um [clears throat] as we know psychology
1:24:14uh is consists of two words psyche and
1:24:18logos. Yeah. So that's why uh we have to
1:24:21look at the the core because uh
1:24:24currently the definition of psychicology
1:24:27the object of study of psychology is
1:24:29changing over time. Yeah. You say uh you
1:24:32hear some people say psychology is the
1:24:34science of behavior. You somebody say
1:24:37the psychology of the science of the
1:24:39brain and so forth. But actually if you
1:24:41go back to the basic actually psyche has
1:24:43a certain meaning. So we have to look at
1:24:45the the the
1:24:48uh dictionary. Yeah. Next slide.
1:24:52So
1:24:53[clears throat]
1:24:56not sure.
1:25:00Okay. So, uh psychology um maybe next
1:25:04slide uh is consists of psyche and
1:25:07logos. Yeah. Psyche the meaning of
1:25:09psyche if you look at the dictionary uh
1:25:12Miriam Webster dictionary it said that
1:25:14psyche actually is the soul. Yeah. The
1:25:16soul the human soul the mind the
1:25:19personality the intellect and so forth.
1:25:21So psyche actually
1:25:23uh is the core the keyword the core
1:25:26concept in psychology that currently is
1:25:29forgotten by the discipline of
1:25:31psychology. They are not doing study
1:25:34about psyche anymore because they now
1:25:36they are shifting into studying the
1:25:40brain which is part it is not the the
1:25:43soul it's the
1:25:45the physics. the uh physical part of
1:25:48human being. But uh some scholars
1:25:52actually neurosurgeon and
1:25:54neuroscientists who study the brain and
1:25:58and they they have you know they believe
1:26:00in God. Those neuroscientists that
1:26:02believe in God actually they already
1:26:04found uh evidence that the brain
1:26:07actually is not the agency of the
1:26:10personality. It's not the one who make
1:26:13decision. So that's why uh the the
1:26:16newest development of neuroscience and
1:26:18neurosurgeons also confirm that actually
1:26:22there's something that control the brain
1:26:25which is immaterial.
1:26:28It's not seen. Okay. So that's why if we
1:26:32look at the Quranic word the Arabic word
1:26:35from the Quran the the
1:26:38what do you the the similar meaning or
1:26:41the one that has meaning similar to
1:26:43psyche actually is the navs. Yeah. Next
1:26:46slide. So the navs is also about the
1:26:49soul. Yeah. The navs is the individual
1:26:52and navs is the essence of the human
1:26:54being and so forth. So that's why uh we
1:26:57start from the word navs as the
1:26:59fundamental concept as the object of
1:27:03study of psychology. So starting from
1:27:06this concept of navs then we can explore
1:27:10the Quran and uh to find some clues some
1:27:15evidence some guidance yeah on how
1:27:18should we develop the science of the the
1:27:20navs or the ilunafs. Next slide.
1:27:25Okay. So this is uh one part I mean like
1:27:30this is the
1:27:32uh the result of the study of about the
1:27:35navs when we are uh collecting some
1:27:39message of the Quran. For example, uh
1:27:42surah anahal the verse number 78 it says
1:27:46about uh that Allah give give us hearing
1:27:50sight and the of the heart and the
1:27:54heart. So based on this and then we we
1:27:58look at the the process of the creation
1:28:01of prophet Adam which is called as the
1:28:04first snaps. So Allah created human
1:28:07being from single from one navs which is
1:28:10the prophet Adam. So it means that if we
1:28:13learn about the process of the creation
1:28:15of the prophet Adam then we we will
1:28:17learn about the the the essence of the
1:28:20navs and based on the study uh we can
1:28:23construct uh layers of the navs. Yeah.
1:28:26uh which is which consists of sensing
1:28:29the ability to sense you know uh to uh
1:28:33you know sense the the surrounding
1:28:36to hear to see and so forth and then the
1:28:39reasoning the reasoning is the cognitive
1:28:41part and um the reasoning actually is
1:28:45not only u understanding what is seen or
1:28:50heard but something beyond that
1:28:52something that is uh immaterial yeah
1:28:56it's not material but you you you know
1:28:58it's a knowledge basic of knowledge and
1:29:00then actually um from the creation the
1:29:04prophet Adam uh there's a message about
1:29:08morality
1:29:10uh so when the prophet Adam was
1:29:12introduced to the malleat and uh yeah
1:29:17the angel and the devil actually it's a
1:29:20introduction of morality that there's
1:29:23there's a good uh things and a bad thing
1:29:26good or bad. So this morality if we
1:29:29explore more uh with understanding the
1:29:33the discipline of you know social
1:29:35science and psychology and so forth then
1:29:37we we can u we can identify two layer of
1:29:42morality. First is the social morality.
1:29:47Uh the the social morality means how we
1:29:50tolerate other people, how we respect
1:29:52other people and so forth. And that is
1:29:56energized or the the the the the source
1:30:00of energy for this social life is
1:30:01empathy. In psychology we call it
1:30:03empathy. The empathy is this ability to
1:30:07interact with others in a good way. But
1:30:10but uh [clears throat]
1:30:12if if you refer to the surah aljud the
1:30:14verse number 13. Yeah. uh it is
1:30:18mentioned that actually beyond this I
1:30:21mean beyond this tolerance beyond this
1:30:23empathy like we should learn from each
1:30:25other uh if we have different there's
1:30:28one
1:30:29more important thing which is uh taqua
1:30:32taqua is the one who define us as an
1:30:35individual so taqua actually is also
1:30:39morality but it is it's a divine
1:30:41morality it's not social morality so
1:30:43that's why uh I put the I mean uh I I I
1:30:48name it as conscience. Your conscience
1:30:51is the the deep deepest part of your
1:30:54heart
1:30:55who connect to Allah. Yeah. Connect to
1:30:58Allah. Connect to the truth, the real
1:31:00truth. So these four layers of human
1:31:04navs is the source of our energy is the
1:31:07our potential to um you know to to
1:31:15that make us do something. So this this
1:31:18create behavior the behavior is not is
1:31:22not coming out of uh emptiness but it's
1:31:25it's the reflection of this dynamics of
1:31:28the human ns. So behavior can cause by
1:31:32sensing, reasoning, empathy or
1:31:36conscience. And when we already show I
1:31:40mean uh do whatever we do then we we
1:31:44will face
1:31:46the test of life. That's why sometimes
1:31:49we make mistake
1:31:51um and sometimes we do the good thing
1:31:54and the bad thing. So we we will go back
1:31:57again to contemplate that through these
1:31:59four layers of our uh consciousness. You
1:32:02can call this our consciousness in the
1:32:04sensing layers the reasoning, empathy
1:32:06and conscience. Uh to understand whether
1:32:11our uh what we do is uh good or bad. If
1:32:14we understand that but if we know if we
1:32:18realize that what we do is what we did
1:32:21is a bad thing then there's a toba. So
1:32:24that's why life actually is cyclical. We
1:32:27do mistake, we do tba and then and so
1:32:29forth. Okay, next slide. Uh actually
1:32:33this concept has uh I mean uh can be
1:32:37elaborated more if we integrate
1:32:40incorporate others message other ayat in
1:32:43the uh in the Quran. uh and it it will
1:32:47create the kind of uh the dynamics of
1:32:49the navs uh or we can call it next slide
1:32:54uh the the new the the psychonamics. So
1:32:57we know the psychonamics in psychology
1:33:00but this is uh psycho dynamics redefined
1:33:04from the Quranic verses messages. In
1:33:08here we we we we interact with Satan
1:33:11with Malay and then in front of us there
1:33:14are two path which is the path of uh
1:33:17taqua
1:33:20no I mean it's not seen here actually
1:33:23there's taqua and fujour yeah there are
1:33:26two path task fujour and tawa
1:33:30that we should choose and if we want to
1:33:32choose the taqua uh you know path we
1:33:38should do taska. So taska is the
1:33:40discipline that we should do in order to
1:33:44to be uh you know in the right path to
1:33:48to to go to Allah to return to Allah but
1:33:52uh within oursel because we have freedom
1:33:56um then we there's also what is a
1:33:59negative energy that is called hawa. So
1:34:02hawa is a negative energy that can pull
1:34:06us down. Yeah. And it is also also
1:34:10already reminded in the Quran first.
1:34:15Yeah.
1:34:21So those who can
1:34:24protect their nuffs from hawa. So hawa
1:34:27is a negative energy uh that is the
1:34:31excess of freedom. So that's why you can
1:34:34see yeah in in our world nowadays
1:34:38there's a lot of people who shout for
1:34:40freedom but actually they are driven by
1:34:43how so that's why we have to be careful
1:34:45about this freedom uh term okay next
1:34:48slide so that's that was the the object
1:34:51of study the navs and then the purpose
1:34:53what is the purpose of the knives next
1:34:55slide uh uh and next yeah the purpose of
1:34:59the navs actually is to to become a
1:35:04navsulina. So because this navs may is
1:35:07the the end of the journey when we
1:35:10achieve navs may then we will be invited
1:35:13to heaven and we'll be uh eligible and
1:35:17entitled as the abdullah. Yeah. So
1:35:19that's why actually is the purpose
1:35:23of of the navs the the destination the
1:35:27the one that we should aim Yeah. at
1:35:30Yeah. or four. Next slide. So the the
1:35:33word here is mudina. Mudayana means
1:35:35peaceful and from this term we can also
1:35:38develop the theory about healthy heart
1:35:42or healthy human psyche. Yeah. Next
1:35:46slide. So the healthy heart the core of
1:35:50the healthy heart is a peaceful heart.
1:35:51So mmayina is a peaceful heart. And in
1:35:54order to to be peaceful we there's
1:35:57another six uh qualities that we should
1:35:59develop in ourself. We have to be solid.
1:36:03We have to have solid heart. A full
1:36:05heart. No emptiness in our heart. We
1:36:08have to be uh coherent heart. No not
1:36:12monafic. Yeah. Coafic is not coherent.
1:36:16And also balanced heart, resilience
1:36:19heart and ever growing heart. So this is
1:36:22a theory that was developed from the
1:36:25concept of mutina and integrated with
1:36:28many others messages so that we can
1:36:31apply this to in our life in in the
1:36:34psychological science and we can and I
1:36:37already developed the measurement for
1:36:38this to indicate uh the the the level of
1:36:42your heart. Yeah. Next.
1:36:45So then the the third part is the
1:36:49method. Next please. So the method here
1:36:53as we refer to the the the
1:36:57framework of the psychonamics we can see
1:37:00that the method here is taska.
1:37:03Next slide. And this is this refer to
1:37:05surah assams. Yeah. Verse number nine.
1:37:11So the one who will be successful is the
1:37:14one who to do taska to themsel. So taska
1:37:18is the keyword for the uh intervention
1:37:22for the for the you know the effort that
1:37:25you should do in order to to get to the
1:37:28navsina and napsina is the healthy uh
1:37:32heart. Yeah
1:37:35mental health actually has navsina.
1:37:39Uh next slide. Uh so taskia have three
1:37:43meanings. Yeah. based on the study of
1:37:45the Quranic the makosit study. Yeah. Uh
1:37:49next slide. Uh it's to purify to nourish
1:37:53and also to grow. So what what what
1:37:57should we purify? So we if we apply this
1:37:59to psychology now we know that there's
1:38:02something wrong in our heart. That's why
1:38:05we need to purify our heart. And if we
1:38:07refer to the
1:38:09u the hadith of
1:38:13uh he said that there's some if if you
1:38:16do something bad or something wrong that
1:38:18there there will be some dot in your
1:38:21heart and the more you do wrongs then
1:38:23your heart will be covered with this you
1:38:26know uh dots that that your heart will
1:38:30will not be clean. Yeah. So this why uh
1:38:33we translate it into psychology as the
1:38:37u mental
1:38:39problem. So what do we what should we do
1:38:41to purify our heart? What what kind of
1:38:44things that we should purify from our
1:38:46heart? Next slide. Um
1:38:50next slide please. Yeah. uh based on the
1:38:55uh work of al-Bali he already defined
1:38:59there are four basic mental problem
1:39:02which is anxiety, depression, anger and
1:39:06uh obsession and actually this is
1:39:11also recognized in the in the
1:39:15psychological
1:39:16manual. Yeah, the DSM. So meaning that
1:39:20this is this is confirmed. Yeah, I mean
1:39:22this is uh
1:39:26developed from the Quranic messages and
1:39:28confirmed with the scientific study. So
1:39:31that's why this is a basic understanding
1:39:33about our mental illness. Next slide.
1:39:36And then we should grow our heart. What
1:39:40should we grow in our heart? First is
1:39:42knowledge and then wisdom and uh
1:39:48harmony and happiness. So this relate to
1:39:53the positive psychology. Yeah. Knowledge
1:39:55is very important. Yeah. In any uh every
1:40:00suggest that knowledge is a very
1:40:02important things to develop. That's why
1:40:04seeking knowledge for Muslim is not
1:40:07optional. We have to do that. Every
1:40:09Muslim has to seek knowledge because
1:40:12knowledge is the one who can grow your
1:40:14heart. And it's also mentioned in the
1:40:15Quran that those who have iman and ilm
1:40:20Yeah. Allah will elevate them to make
1:40:22them uh more qualified person in
1:40:25individual. Yeah. Okay. So this is the
1:40:29the basic the fundamental and next slide
1:40:32as the conclusion actually uh to do this
1:40:36uh I have already developed seven uh
1:40:39framework in doing taska and it's always
1:40:43pub is already published in a book
1:40:45called Taska therapy. Yeah. And uh you
1:40:50know this is just an effort how to
1:40:53construct uh psychology from the Islamic
1:40:56perspective
1:40:58but not I mean but also integrate the
1:41:01knowledge that we already learned from
1:41:03the psychological discipline. Inshallah
1:41:06if we can do this we can redefine
1:41:09psychology in thank you very much.
1:41:13[applause]
1:41:17Thank you very much uh Dr. Busus. Uh you
1:41:20already give us a fruitful and
1:41:22insightful uh materials. Yeah. Now
1:41:25before we enter the Q&A sessions uh let
1:41:28me summarize yeah the three speakers
1:41:33points. The first prophet Hadi Sri
1:41:36Haimsa mentioned that Islam should be
1:41:39positioned as a paradigm. But without uh
1:41:42good or robust understanding on how
1:41:46paradigm is or what paradigm is, we
1:41:48can't build or develop uh the clear part
1:41:52on the paradigm itself. And
1:41:56he borrow a lot of things from
1:41:59Kuntoayo's notions. Yeah. that Islam
1:42:02should be posted as sciences and Islam
1:42:07as a paradigm and I think uh this is uh
1:42:10not finished work from Kijijaya. We
1:42:13should continue the legacy from Kunto
1:42:18itself and from professor Jaser Auda
1:42:23there is a fundamental error in defining
1:42:26knowledge as you mentions and also your
1:42:28objections professor Jaser that we tend
1:42:32uh or society uh of Islam for example
1:42:35tend to distinguish
1:42:38uh the knowledge that belongs to Islam
1:42:40and belongs to science and so on and uh
1:42:44I think this is uh the short question
1:42:46for you. How can we overcome Yeah. the
1:42:50uh the the conflictual
1:42:53circumstances yeah that we face when we
1:42:57encounter scientific claim and we
1:42:59connect it to the metaphysical claim. I
1:43:02think uh it is in terms of uh the very
1:43:05very different ontological stance
1:43:08between science and religions.
1:43:12we know that okay we can uh make it
1:43:16conflict between
1:43:18naturalistic point of view and demonism
1:43:22and also the spiritualism point of view.
1:43:24Thank you. And the last uh from uh Dr.
1:43:28Bagus
1:43:30he already mentions that the object of
1:43:32psychology has been changing
1:43:34tremendously. Yeah, we have to concern
1:43:38reconsider uh or rethink on how we
1:43:42positions the objects of the study in uh
1:43:46psychology discipline. I think we need
1:43:49to involve the vast uh kind of objects
1:43:54including the accessible one and also
1:43:57the inaccessible ones from the
1:43:59spirituality and also from the
1:44:01physicality and materiality itself.
1:44:04Thank you very much. And now we enter
1:44:07the Q&A sessions. Uh we have around 1
1:44:11hours. Yeah. Until we finish this
1:44:14conference. So if you have a questions,
1:44:17please raise your hands. But please
1:44:20don't forget to mention whom your answer
1:44:24is addressed to. Yeah. Maybe for
1:44:26Professor, Profus and also Profi. Okay.
1:44:31I will open two round three questioners
1:44:34for uh each rounds. Okay. First you and
1:44:40you. Okay. Please introduce yourself
1:44:42first.
1:44:50All right.
1:44:53Okay. Thank you. Um thank you to all
1:44:56speakers for delivering such insightful
1:44:58presentation. I'm Muhammad Yu from the
1:45:00Masid campus management. Um I I I didn't
1:45:05anticipate that this uh weekend's
1:45:07discussion the discussion during the
1:45:09weekend would be both challenging and
1:45:11you know enriching. It's for me it's is
1:45:14quite um really um
1:45:17um I'm I'm happy to be to be here to
1:45:19learn from all of you. But I I would
1:45:21like to pose some some question to our
1:45:24uh distinguished speakers. The first one
1:45:26is for profi. Um you mentioned that each
1:45:30discipline has distinct methods for
1:45:32approaching a subject and with only
1:45:36abstract shared methods at higher level.
1:45:39Um could you elaborate um further on the
1:45:42likely shared methods you mentioned in
1:45:44developing a p prophetic science?
1:45:48Yeah. And for uh prophet Jaser um you
1:45:51discussed the relationship between
1:45:53religious knowledge and scientific
1:45:54knowledge noting that scientific
1:45:57knowledge encompasses um various
1:46:00paradigms to understand facts while the
1:46:02fact themselves remain independent.
1:46:06Um I would like to understand further
1:46:08about um religious knowledge you you
1:46:10mentioned um many many times. How do you
1:46:13define religious knowledge? Um in terms
1:46:17that um because we we understand that
1:46:20religious knowledge is very dependent
1:46:22upon who interpret the the the the
1:46:25religious teachings. Um,
1:46:28how do you incorporate the role of
1:46:31mufasier, the religious interpreters
1:46:33into your definition of religious
1:46:35knowledge considering again that each
1:46:38mufasier has its or her own uh different
1:46:42knowledge background? And for Prof.
1:46:45Bagus, um can you explain further about
1:46:48the methods for uh understanding the
1:46:50navs? because you mentioned quite a lot
1:46:53for me, but I really um want to to
1:46:57understand in more detail about um the
1:47:01methodology uh you propose for
1:47:03understanding the navs and to what
1:47:06extent the externalities
1:47:09um create and influence the navs in
1:47:12creating one's own uh behavior. Thank
1:47:15you.
1:47:16>> Thank you very much. Okay, start from
1:47:20prof uh profi first.
1:47:27>> Okay, thank you. Thank you very much.
1:47:29Uh, excuse me, mop. Could you repeat um
1:47:33your question? Is it about the Yeah.
1:47:36>> Yeah.
1:47:42Young off? Yeah.
1:47:45Yeah.
1:47:56Oh
1:48:01yeah.
1:48:05>> Okay. Okay. Uh because you you mentioned
1:48:06that each discipline has its own methods
1:48:08in understanding the phenomenon in
1:48:11understanding something but you also
1:48:13mentioned that there will be there is
1:48:16likely shared methods in the abstract
1:48:19level. We call we may call it
1:48:23uh the shared method the the method that
1:48:25can applied that can be applied in all
1:48:28disciplines but that is only at the
1:48:31level of abstract. uh we we may call it
1:48:33the prophetic methods or whatever then
1:48:37uh I would like to uh understand further
1:48:39about um what is the shared method you
1:48:42you mentioned that can be applied for
1:48:45all the disciplines. Thank you.
1:48:46>> Yes, thank you very much. Well, actually
1:48:49um if we go deeper to each discipline, I
1:48:54think uh we know that for instance my
1:48:57field is anthropology. Yeah. How to do
1:49:00research in anthropology is rather
1:49:02different from u doing research in
1:49:05economics. Yeah. And in psychology.
1:49:07Yeah. So u what we need uh then is more
1:49:14on abst abstract level and that is
1:49:17actually uh what what I told you
1:49:20actually is not quite abstract. U
1:49:24already showed us actually this is what
1:49:26I meant. uh you take um keyword yeah
1:49:31that's actually not abstract but um how
1:49:35you operationalize
1:49:36yeah how you define and then you use
1:49:39what kind of instruments and that is
1:49:42different so you just you can mention
1:49:45only you use instrument you use this you
1:49:48use interview but how you do interview
1:49:51then it's different from psychology and
1:49:54anthropology so that is what I mean by
1:49:56abstract Correct. Yeah. It's only on the
1:49:59level of very general one. Yeah. But
1:50:02papus already showed us how the uh we
1:50:06can apply that in psychology. While in
1:50:09anthropology I'll do I think I'll do
1:50:12different things. Yeah. Not like that.
1:50:14But still the methodology is more or
1:50:17less the same. Yeah. We have keywords
1:50:20and definitions and explanations and
1:50:23that is actually what I can tell you.
1:50:25But how we define explain is it's more
1:50:28operational. Yeah. And actually uh for
1:50:31social science because if we want to um
1:50:34in this case we want to transform uh
1:50:36society
1:50:38we need to uh distinguish two kind of
1:50:41methodology.
1:50:42First is method of research and then
1:50:46method of application the result of
1:50:49research.
1:50:50uh and that is more on applied uh aspect
1:50:54of data science. So so actually we need
1:50:57to kinds of methodology
1:51:00not only one methodology but um for each
1:51:04discipline we need to have that kind we
1:51:06do research in for instance uh medical
1:51:10science is different from practicing the
1:51:14medical science applying knowledge in
1:51:16medical science. So that kind of
1:51:18knowledge actually we need to have that.
1:51:20Yeah. So we have to kind of prioritize
1:51:22what I told you actually is just uh very
1:51:26general. Yeah. And then that's for more
1:51:29research rather than for application but
1:51:33uh we needed to discuss this better in
1:51:35other occasion. Thank you very much M
1:51:37for the question.
1:51:50Next uh the question for
1:51:54Professer.
1:51:57>> I have actually two questions from our
1:51:59moderator Dr. Rodinal about the conflict
1:52:03how to overcome the conflictual
1:52:06um events between the metaphysics of
1:52:11religion and science. Um I would answer
1:52:14briefly with inshallah as much as I can.
1:52:19Um once once we label religion
1:52:23knowledge or religious knowledge
1:52:24metaphysics
1:52:26we we shift it to a different paradigm
1:52:30because the Islamic paradigm does not
1:52:33have physics and metaphysics. The
1:52:34Islamic paradigm has shahada and shahada
1:52:39is what we see and is the unseen but
1:52:44both are physics. Angels are physics in
1:52:47Islam and jin are physics but we don't
1:52:50see them. So that's so how to then
1:52:54bridge the gap between scientific
1:52:57knowledge and religion religious
1:52:58knowledge when they contradict actually
1:53:01this contradiction is not true. The true
1:53:06understanding of religious knowledge
1:53:09never contradicts with science.
1:53:12If the science is true and if there is a
1:53:14contradiction there is one of two
1:53:17possibilities either the science is
1:53:19wrong or the religious interpretation is
1:53:23wrong. So if the religious
1:53:25interpretation is long wrong which is uh
1:53:28the question of our dear uh doctor that
1:53:33the there is a difference between the
1:53:36truthful interpretation and the ai or
1:53:42guest or or probable interpretation.
1:53:46Interpretation is not black and white.
1:53:48There is a spectrum of possibilities.
1:53:53The there are truths that are religious
1:53:55truths that nobody should come and
1:53:58dispute. The fact that Adamisam
1:54:03had a language, nobody should come and
1:54:06tell us that he had a pseudo language or
1:54:08a monkey language because you know if
1:54:11we're talking anthropology that that is
1:54:13not really the history of language as we
1:54:15know it. The fact that we had prophets
1:54:19everywhere, nobody should come and tell
1:54:21us that the Iraqis invented monotheism
1:54:25or the Egyptians or no because
1:54:27monotheism is from Adam. This is a
1:54:30truth. But sometimes there is an
1:54:32interpretation that is probable and then
1:54:35science would push us to fine-tune our
1:54:40interpretation. It's like people when
1:54:42they interp interpreted that the earth
1:54:44is flat. The Quran is not saying that
1:54:46the earth is flat. But their science at
1:54:49that time said that earth is and then
1:54:52science started to say oh the earth is
1:54:54round and you go back to the Quran and
1:54:56you have a better interpretation. So not
1:54:59every interpretation is correct but some
1:55:02interpretations are facts and are not
1:55:05just the mufases illusions but some of
1:55:09the taps is truth. Uh it is not the
1:55:13Quran exactly. It's the tap but it's
1:55:15truth and some of the taps requires
1:55:19revision. Similarly with science, some
1:55:22of the science is truth, but some of the
1:55:24science requires revision. And if you
1:55:27deal with science with a critical eye,
1:55:29you realize that most science requires
1:55:33revision because every theory that was
1:55:36true 300 years ago is not true now.
1:55:41Almost every scientific I'm talking
1:55:42physics and astronomy and medicine let
1:55:45alone psychology and sociology and
1:55:48political science 300 years ago these
1:55:51social sciences were very different from
1:55:53today. So science is theories is um
1:55:59you know suggestions
1:56:02and I'm speaking as a scientist as I
1:56:04have a PhD in science. So I'm as a
1:56:07scientist I say that science at the end
1:56:10is suggestions for explaining phenomena
1:56:15and not necessarily truth. Um including
1:56:19natural sciences let alone social
1:56:21sciences and these kinds of things that
1:56:23are just simply theories. You know the
1:56:26theory of the markets, the theory of the
1:56:29state, the theory these are theories and
1:56:31maybe 100 years from now a state will be
1:56:34defined differently and markets will be
1:56:36defined differently and so forth because
1:56:38100 years ago they were defined
1:56:40differently. So the yes there is a
1:56:43difference between the taps and the
1:56:45mufas but sometimes that difference uh
1:56:50is is not is if the mufas reaches the
1:56:53truth. What do we how do we define truth
1:56:56that is not
1:56:59that is not something that we have a
1:57:02criteria for. This is something that we
1:57:04all agree on. There is an if you wish or
1:57:09a consensus of every scientist on a
1:57:13theory, it becomes a fact probably and
1:57:17the consensus of every on a or a rule it
1:57:23becomes a fact too. But maybe some of
1:57:26the eventually will say oh no that that
1:57:29rule is not in every place. H maybe if
1:57:32you go to the north pole as we live in
1:57:34Canada Ramadan sunrise and sunset is not
1:57:38like that we the sun goes around for 6
1:57:41months I am going to break my fast after
1:57:446 months no I mean I will start to have
1:57:46a different for the sunrise and sunset
1:57:50mala I'm the part I'm part of the
1:57:53council of America isna council so we
1:57:55have these dilemas and we're revising
1:57:57some
1:57:59facts people think they are facts but
1:58:01they're or not in the north there's no
1:58:03sunrise and sunset. So similarly in
1:58:07science sometimes we have differences um
1:58:10and inshallah as as we develop our
1:58:13knowledge from the Islamic point of
1:58:15view. I'm very happy to inshallah be on
1:58:18the same panel with or two good
1:58:20professors. Prophadi gave us an example
1:58:24of developing an Islamic philosophy
1:58:26outside the dominant paradigm and Prof.
1:58:29Bagos gave us an example of developing
1:58:32Islamic psychology outside the dominant
1:58:34paradigm. This psychology is not
1:58:37Freudian and this philosophy is not
1:58:39Aristotleian or any of that Hegelian or
1:58:44any of that. So we alhamdulillah as an
1:58:46um we are developing our sciences and
1:58:48inshallah the future will be inshallah
1:58:51better.
1:59:04um [clears throat] okay I'm I'm going to
1:59:07uh share how we can uh I mean come up
1:59:11with this uh concept and construct first
1:59:14of all from the word navs then we we
1:59:17collect all the verses I mean as much as
1:59:20possible because the word navs uh
1:59:24mentioned in 270
1:59:27ayat. So we I mean I haven't really
1:59:30studied all of them but at least uh we
1:59:33try to understand how the Quran
1:59:35explained about the navs. First
1:59:38uh Allah mentioned that Allah created
1:59:40human being from one navs
1:59:43meaning that navs actually is one
1:59:46individual. One individual is also one
1:59:48navs and then Allah mentioned about navs
1:59:51as the soul. Yeah, the soul is also so
1:59:54the individual the essence of the
1:59:56individual is the soul not the body.
1:59:58Okay. So we we have to uh learn to study
2:00:03to try to understand the message of the
2:00:06Quran based on the word navs and then
2:00:09the the what is the highest the highest
2:00:14state of the navs it's because this is
2:00:17the end of the day the end of the you
2:00:20know uh the
2:00:24is the the condition the state of the
2:00:26navs that is the ultimates of the navs
2:00:29which entitled to go heaven and also
2:00:32accept it as the uh Abdullah ha Allah.
2:00:37Yeah. So this why by
2:00:41studying trying to contemplate and
2:00:43trying to understand the message about
2:00:45all the verse of the Quran that talking
2:00:48about the navs then we can construct a
2:00:51theory about the navs. And also uh
2:00:55lately when I uh you know think about it
2:00:59actually the the the the term
2:01:06uh that sometimes people's you interpret
2:01:10this as everybody will die but actually
2:01:12that's not quite right because mouth
2:01:14actually it's not the end of everything.
2:01:18It's in the surah uh tabarok uh al- mul
2:01:21he said that a mouth is is kind is part
2:01:26of the test you know so that's why when
2:01:30we we say kunafind maybe the the the the
2:01:34message here is everybody every
2:01:36individual will experience death so
2:01:40death is not the end of everything so
2:01:42this by understanding the message and
2:01:45and you know try to uh connecting to
2:01:48each other the messages then we can
2:01:50understand more about the meaning or the
2:01:54message from these verses and by doing
2:01:57that inshallah we can develop the
2:01:59knowledge about the nams thank you
2:02:03>> okay thank you next we'll move to the
2:02:07second questioners
2:02:10>> thank [clears throat] you Mr.
2:02:12My name is City Modia from uh political
2:02:15science uh faculty faculty of uh social
2:02:19and political science. That's why I
2:02:22actually I've been waiting for the
2:02:25elaboration of uh of Islamic thought uh
2:02:29from the perspective of politics.
2:02:31>> [clears throat]
2:02:32>> Uh thank you so much for your uh uh your
2:02:36speaking or your presentation that all
2:02:39of the speaker gave me what some
2:02:43insightment
2:02:44uh and also broaden my mind but uh
2:02:48because I'm I'm coming from political
2:02:51science so I uh I'm waiting for the
2:02:54political perspective uh as far as uh
2:02:57I'm concerned that the future of Islamic
2:03:00thought much deepen depends on the
2:03:02Islamic political thought. You know that
2:03:04uh Islam offer uh political thoughts.
2:03:08That's why uh our uh founding fathers
2:03:12firstly uh introduce uh the political
2:03:15terms coming from Islam. You know the
2:03:18name of uh our parliament all parliament
2:03:23is
2:03:25the three terms are Arabic right and
2:03:28also malistatan
2:03:30and so on and so on even uh democracy
2:03:34uh that we have ideology called
2:03:37panzasila.
2:03:39So uh uh based on the ideology that we
2:03:43believe in one cut actually Indonesia a
2:03:46lot of uh we have a lot of religion but
2:03:49the government or only acknowledge six
2:03:52of them and uh you know uh we follow uh
2:03:57some Islamic thought when we built this
2:04:00country and I'm sure that Islam offer uh
2:04:04of of think of uh thoughts political
2:04:09thought how to govern uh the people how
2:04:12to govern the people locally I mean
2:04:14nationally or uh globally. So Islam is a
2:04:19solution I think because Islam also
2:04:21offer democracy, justice, equality and
2:04:25so on and so forth. So uh if um
2:04:30if you give me chance to uh you know
2:04:34elaborate the political thoughts. So
2:04:37this uh prophetic method should be
2:04:40started from the idea of uh political
2:04:44thoughts. For example, you have to
2:04:46follow for example Pasal Rahman how to
2:04:49build the Islamic State or uh Rashid
2:04:52Reid or Hassan Alana and from our
2:04:56countries uh Muhammad Natir Muhammad
2:04:59Hanka we have a lot of uh Islamic uh uh
2:05:04what Islamic political scientists. So um
2:05:08it would be better for the prophetic uh
2:05:11thought that we elaporate uh the
2:05:14thinking of Islam from the political
2:05:17sides. Uh yes, I I strongly believe
2:05:21because uh that uh the world can be
2:05:24better when we um implement uh Islamic
2:05:29uh Islamic thought and you know without
2:05:32politics. Uh it is very difficult for
2:05:36you to implement all of the uh all of
2:05:39the Islamic thought. For example, yes
2:05:41because you have uh an idea how to make
2:05:44uh people uh become tawa according to
2:05:48Islam. But we thought without authority
2:05:51we cannot implement the idea of Islam,
2:05:54right? So uh politic is very important.
2:05:58For example, uh our government um you
2:06:02know every f Friday the government give
2:06:05chance to every Indonesian people to to
2:06:09do Friday prayers. That's mean this is
2:06:11about authority right because uh because
2:06:14of the authority so the Islamic thought
2:06:17can be implemented uh quite well. I I
2:06:20just uh would like to have your respond
2:06:24about this. Thank you so much for the
2:06:26three speakers.
2:06:27>> Okay. Thank you very much. The
2:06:28elaboration between the politics and
2:06:30knowledge. Okay. Who come first?
2:06:33Prophetti.
2:06:34>> No.
2:06:37>> Yeah. Zakir, I agree with you, sister
2:06:41Dr. I. I totally agree. I think there is
2:06:44a difference between
2:06:46um applying Islam and imposing Islam.
2:06:51Islam is not supposed to be imposed on
2:06:54other.
2:06:55We have in the Quran. We cannot impose
2:06:58on other to become Muslim or to do what
2:07:01Muslims do.
2:07:03But there is always a system in a polity
2:07:08whatever the polity is that comes from a
2:07:12religious perspective
2:07:14that the majority
2:07:16imposes on the minorities.
2:07:19I am a Canadian. I live in Canada.
2:07:21There is a there are things in the law
2:07:25that come from Christianity and
2:07:27particular branches of Christianity. For
2:07:29example, cousins cannot marry legally in
2:07:33in Canada from a branch of protestism.
2:07:37In Islam, we could marry, you could
2:07:38marry your cousin, but in Canada, this
2:07:41is not allowed. The culture developed
2:07:45and then the law developed not to allow
2:07:47that. as a Muslim. Okay, I cannot marry
2:07:51my cousin. We cannot I don't know have
2:07:54polygamy in in Canada legally speaking.
2:07:57Uh there are things as a minority. I'm
2:07:59living my religion but the general
2:08:02system because we are a small minority.
2:08:05We go by the general system. Uh so the
2:08:09same thing with Islam. There is a
2:08:12general system of Islam and therefore
2:08:15there are things that we consider
2:08:16crimes. uh zena Allah forbid or ribba or
2:08:21you know we consider ribba a crime we
2:08:24could say well no more ribba and you are
2:08:27a Christian you can do ribba or you're a
2:08:29Jew but no we are we don't allow ribba
2:08:32in this country and Islam is for the
2:08:35best of humanity not just not just
2:08:39Muslims for the best of everyone but we
2:08:41need to differentiate between the things
2:08:43that are
2:08:45and the things that are and It's complex
2:08:48sometimes
2:08:49are for Muslims. We pray on Friday and
2:08:52we pray Eid and we you know marry
2:08:54particular way. Others could have
2:08:57parallel laws and parallel way of life
2:09:00as long as they don't compromise the
2:09:02public order as long as they don't
2:09:06destroy the the public order. Yes, you
2:09:08could drink but you're not supposed to
2:09:11be drunk in the street for example.
2:09:13That's in in the Sharia minorities could
2:09:16drink. You are not going to but they are
2:09:18not supposed to be drunk in the street
2:09:21because the street is a public order.
2:09:24Allah forbid they could have a sinful
2:09:27relationship but if they are seen by
2:09:29four people then they are lashed or the
2:09:32you know the the applies because private
2:09:35life could have the religious dimension
2:09:38of religious minorities and we should
2:09:40protect that protect our churches or
2:09:42synagogues or temples but the public
2:09:45order has to be Islamic and being in a
2:09:49modern state does not mean to be in a
2:09:52Christian state or a secular state.
2:09:55Modern state is could be Islamic too.
2:09:58And you mentioned quite a number of
2:10:00names of Muslim intellectuals who try to
2:10:03develop theories of da Islam civil
2:10:08state. I have a book a humble book
2:10:09that's called the dal media or civil
2:10:11state and that book published maybe 15
2:10:14years ago. That book um is proposing
2:10:17ideas on the relationship between state
2:10:20and religion.
2:10:22Thank you. Thank you doctor.
2:10:30>> Okay, thank you very much. So thank you
2:10:33for the question. Uh
2:10:36the problem is that
2:10:39it seems that something is already clear
2:10:43building for political systems something
2:10:45like that. But in my view no uh we don't
2:10:49know we don't really have um clear idea
2:10:54how islamic political system is ideology
2:10:59you know I don't think we really have
2:11:01that and we know that even in our
2:11:06religion we have for mazab yeah shafi
2:11:10hanbali hafi
2:11:13and of course in political uh political
2:11:16ical thoughts there might be more. Yeah.
2:11:18If we try to uh analyze further that's
2:11:22first. So um in my view we still have to
2:11:27re uh formulate
2:11:29if we want to uh what do we what do we
2:11:32mean by something like Islamic ideology
2:11:36or Islamic political system something
2:11:38like that but before that I think we
2:11:41need to do research yeah and that's
2:11:44actually our problem yeah
2:11:48we don't have really good research on
2:11:51political systems
2:11:53In Islam I think yeah using for instance
2:11:58key words in Quran
2:12:00we can start actually for what is
2:12:02mushawara
2:12:05what is the definition of that yeah and
2:12:08how many meanings to that yeah and not
2:12:10only from our interpretation because
2:12:13many ulamas has already have definitions
2:12:16about that word I think yeah so we need
2:12:20to also to read their books That's why I
2:12:23I said in my presentation we needing
2:12:26actually because they already might be
2:12:30yeah there might be some ideas already
2:12:32there about the political systems so we
2:12:34don't know yeah so we need to study that
2:12:37yeah we cannot say that oh it's Quran
2:12:40hadith and then we are the first
2:12:43interpreter of Quran we are the first
2:12:46interpreter of hadith no there already a
2:12:48lot of interpretations a lot of hadith
2:12:52uh a lot of um some Muslim scholars and
2:12:56they have their own ideas and actually
2:12:58that's what we need to study that
2:13:01critically and whether we can develop
2:13:03further and that is actually for
2:13:06political for for political system I'm
2:13:10sorry to say that's your task
2:13:13[laughter]
2:13:13that's your job muta
2:13:16because we are not political scientist
2:13:18[laughter] you know that I'm
2:13:20anthropologist ologist and your
2:13:22psychologist. So I think if we need
2:13:24political science well then that's your
2:13:27job to do that and must project
2:13:30sociologist [laughter] and must ar
2:13:33philosophers I think if we agree that
2:13:36then we try to develop yeah and then
2:13:39we'll have a lot of uh prophetic views
2:13:43yeah about many kinds of things yeah
2:13:47okay thank you very much for the
2:13:49question
2:13:50>> yeah thank you
2:13:52>> actually I don't Yes, you may if I may
2:13:54add just adding yes
2:13:57adding to
2:14:00about and so on. I refer you to a very
2:14:03thick book of two volumes written by Dr.
2:14:07Al Shawi al Shawi from Egypt. It's
2:14:10called
2:14:13um an attempt. He was an of ours. He
2:14:17died recently and he had an an approach
2:14:22trying to think about Shur but he needed
2:14:26like 800 pages on Shur and the current
2:14:30state. How can we do Shur in a current
2:14:33state? There is also another key word
2:14:35very important alum. Alumah we are
2:14:40nation states but we are also an ummah
2:14:43and non-Muslims act as ummah. Europeans
2:14:47are nation states but they are there is
2:14:49the European ummah. They are not going
2:14:51to allow a city in Europe to die of
2:14:55hunger for example but we allow cities
2:14:58in Muslim ummah to die of hunger and and
2:15:01that is not ummah. we like you know the
2:15:04European um is defending Ukraine now uh
2:15:07the Muslim um should defend Palestine.
2:15:09So Ummah is also a very important
2:15:12political concept that a number of
2:15:16scholars wrote about and that could
2:15:18develop political science not in
2:15:20contradiction with the nation state. It
2:15:22is there. It's a fact. But the nation
2:15:24state should be part of an ummah. Not
2:15:27just selfish in its own right. Because
2:15:30originally nation state is a very
2:15:31selfish idea and it would be better to
2:15:35integrate that nation state in a bigger
2:15:38ummah.
2:15:41>> Yeah. Uh okay. [clears throat] Just uh
2:15:44uh little bit comment uh about this. I
2:15:47actually I don't agree with aimsa pro
2:15:51aimsa uh about the political thoughts or
2:15:54political uh Islamic political thought
2:15:57or Islamic uh political uh studies.
2:16:01Yeah. Because I uh I teach Islamic uh
2:16:07political movement of the Middle East.
2:16:09So uh they have uh a lot of things about
2:16:12the politics actually uh about um for
2:16:16example um actually as far as I'm
2:16:18concerned um is a uh Islamic uh
2:16:22community. This is created by uh our
2:16:25prophet Muhammad and to introduce to to
2:16:29make the differences between Islamic
2:16:31community and the other community and
2:16:33the non-Islamic community we call it
2:16:36dimi dimni that mean uh we have to
2:16:39respect dimini this is uh the idea of
2:16:43matina state this is just for example
2:16:47and then yes Islam also teach about
2:16:49democracy but not through uh not through
2:16:52Voting quoting is a kind of democracy
2:16:55but we have to to discuss this this is
2:16:59called Musavara is discussion before we
2:17:02decide something we have to discuss
2:17:04first with all of the people and then uh
2:17:08then when you choose the leader you may
2:17:11choose the right leader not uh at the
2:17:14moment for example in our government we
2:17:16that we are governed with a with a child
2:17:19or something like that if if we discuss
2:17:22us before. So this is uh won't happen.
2:17:25Yes. Uh pro that uh our vice president
2:17:29actually is very young and uh violates
2:17:32our violates our constitution and then
2:17:36suddenly the previous president our our
2:17:41constitution and then uh you know this
2:17:44vice president is the son of the
2:17:46previous president. This is not fair. So
2:17:49Islam give us uh a lot of ideas about
2:17:53politics that we have to discuss. This
2:17:55is mus. So for mawara the result is not
2:18:00innocent like a voting but yes we have
2:18:03to be patient. Patient is a kind of
2:18:06approach that uh we have to accept uh
2:18:10yes something maybe we don't like it. So
2:18:13a lot of things pro aims that uh Islam
2:18:17give us idea in politics. Uh yes surely
2:18:21a lot of books uh talking about Islamic
2:18:25uh politics and this is a solution. I
2:18:28think we we are struggling uh how to uh
2:18:32to follow Islamic thought through uh
2:18:35politics. Yeah we we are struggling. Uh
2:18:39yes uh our word is not a fine at the
2:18:42moment but Islam is is like a solution
2:18:45we have to give contribution to to to
2:18:49the world that's why the uh the global
2:18:52governance uh will be better than uh
2:18:55ever. Yeah. But through Islamic uh
2:18:57political thoughts. Yeah. Or uh
2:19:00political uh Islamic political uh what
2:19:03ideas. Yeah. Thank you so much.
2:19:06>> Okay prophetti. I give you okay our
2:19:09career. Okay.
2:19:10>> Round we can discuss.
2:19:11>> Yes. Next we go to the second round. I
2:19:15open two uh questioners. First Mas Raja
2:19:19and the second one you over there. Okay.
2:19:23Okay. Third. Yeah. I open for you also.
2:19:26Okay.
2:19:29>> Okay. Okay. Start from Masraja.
2:19:35Thank you very much for the time. Uh
2:19:40I think very interesting
2:19:44for discussion today.
2:19:46Uh there are three speaker that uh give
2:19:53insight
2:19:54uh ideas and of course first
2:20:00professor Auda I want to
2:20:04ask maybe and confirm some problem from
2:20:07you
2:20:09because uh in my minds
2:20:12uh I firstly imagined that you will be
2:20:17here and you will give some uh ideas
2:20:22some some new ideas in my mind. Uh I
2:20:25agree with professor Hi Aimsa that we
2:20:29still need
2:20:31uh something like paradigms something
2:20:35like uh
2:20:37big ideas because
2:20:41this come from now if we aware we still
2:20:47in condition of colonization.
2:20:51There are many kind of colonization as
2:20:54you mentioned. Uh you try to explain
2:21:00uh how western country
2:21:04western country and uh
2:21:07try to
2:21:09occupy Gaza for example. It is a matter
2:21:14of colonization
2:21:16and we know that uh colonization not
2:21:19only in politic
2:21:22but in many aspect
2:21:25and I think uh
2:21:28we uh our task as a teacher here as a
2:21:31lecturer is try to uh
2:21:37try to fight
2:21:40with ideas with cultural several uh
2:21:44ideas who try to undermines the ideas of
2:21:48colonization that's why I wait from you
2:21:53maybe you uh develops new kind of
2:21:56paradigms because uh for example
2:22:01you say that now you live in Canada
2:22:05right you live in Canada and uh you try
2:22:09to explain your experience daily
2:22:11experience how uh Muslim community uh
2:22:16live there with the specific rule and it
2:22:20is different with general rule in Canada
2:22:24and uh I think maybe you try to justify
2:22:30uh how the Muslim can live better there.
2:22:34Yeah. It it is kind of in my mind it is
2:22:38a kind of idea how uh Muslim community
2:22:41can uh live there. But in my mind there
2:22:46are so many Muslim uh forced to be uh
2:22:52to be uh go to the western country
2:22:55because of they try to colonialize our
2:22:59regions.
2:23:02So uh in my mind maybe
2:23:08you can give your your your uh I don't
2:23:12know how you do that as a lecturer in
2:23:16Canada
2:23:18try to
2:23:19develop uh
2:23:23paradigms or maybe uh scientific methods
2:23:28specific method try to maybe to to to
2:23:32confront the colonialism in culture.
2:23:37Yeah. For example, uh I have
2:23:41remember what uh like what Roy Basar say
2:23:45he tried to uh define or maybe to remind
2:23:50us about uh how we it is very important
2:23:54for us to differentiate between for
2:23:57example uh epistemology and ontology
2:24:02because as you mentioned there are now
2:24:06there's So many theory
2:24:10uh derivate from epistemology try to
2:24:15undermine
2:24:16try to colonialize
2:24:19[snorts] our uh uh uh maybe our belief
2:24:22maybe our uh convince. Yeah. and so
2:24:26many. And so as you mentioned theory is
2:24:32part of epistemology
2:24:35but the the other thing is it is very
2:24:38important for us to uh as you mentioned
2:24:42about the the deontology aspect. It is
2:24:45about the exist and unexist. Yeah. How
2:24:50uh it is very important to try uh to to
2:24:54sometime maybe to uh
2:24:58to clarify for our student how it is
2:25:01very important to understand between uh
2:25:05the differentiate between ontology and
2:25:08epistemology because uh there are so
2:25:12many theory in social science like
2:25:14professor HDI said and Dr. Bagago said
2:25:18there are so many theory for example in
2:25:22sociology
2:25:24uh we uh teach how uh
2:25:30politic for example determines culture
2:25:33and be uh vice versa how culture def
2:25:37determine for for example politic and
2:25:41there are so many kind of theory so
2:25:44>> sorry maj sorry for interrupting you
2:25:47Okay.
2:25:47>> Could you make it shorter?
2:25:49>> So maybe you have uh specific uh
2:25:52paradigms uh that uh I need to uh
2:25:58to heard from you. Thank you. Maybe uh
2:26:01just uh one question.
2:26:04>> Okay. Thank you mas praa. Next we go to
2:26:07to you and uh to guys from there. Yeah.
2:26:12So we can answer uh all the questions at
2:26:15once. Okay. introduce your name first.
2:26:23My name is Akraan.
2:26:27Um firstly I would like to thank the
2:26:30distinguished speakers
2:26:32which uh who has provided us with a very
2:26:35insightful conversation this weekend.
2:26:40Um,
2:26:41Professor Yasar um explained to us that
2:26:47um there are fundamental differences
2:26:50between
2:26:52um
2:26:53conventional sciences as we know it, uh
2:26:56western sciences so to speak and those
2:26:59implemented by Islamic values
2:27:03um such as in the field of medicine
2:27:07um in sciences and so on so forth. But
2:27:10um
2:27:12specifically regarding uh some social
2:27:16sciences like uh politics and economics
2:27:20um they are very
2:27:23uh how do you say like cross entangled
2:27:25so to speak like um obviously western
2:27:29politics there like there are
2:27:33fundamental issues regarding western
2:27:34politics like uh as previously mentioned
2:27:38Marchavelian values and in economics you
2:27:42know uh there's uncontrolled capitalism
2:27:45and
2:27:47um all its evils
2:27:50but um what I'm trying to say is um
2:27:54this like changes in politics require
2:27:58great change in economic and uh changes
2:28:02in economics require great change in
2:28:04politics. they're like intertwined and
2:28:06very cross-entangled which of course
2:28:08then poses some difficulties regarding
2:28:11its implementation in the real real
2:28:14world so to speak uh because uh changes
2:28:18in one sector requires also great
2:28:21reforms in other sectors. I would uh
2:28:25like if uh professor yester could uh go
2:28:27ahead and uh explain further how that uh
2:28:31might be implemented in the real world.
2:28:34Thank you. Okay. Next.
2:28:39>> Check. Uh, thanks for the given time. My
2:28:44name is Nandabil
2:28:48and
2:28:51I think my question will be addressed to
2:28:57professor HDI ultimately but I think it
2:29:01could be addressed to Prof.
2:29:05Chaser. Uh so what I want to ask is
2:29:12I have read Islam
2:29:15that was written by Profundo Joyo and
2:29:19what I remembered is
2:29:23Profundo writes that
2:29:26prophetic social science or
2:29:30yeah other types of
2:29:34scientification of Islam.
2:29:37The goal of that is how the science of
2:29:42Islam could be inclusive for all people.
2:29:50uh whether they came from different
2:29:54religion, they came from different
2:29:56geography and
2:29:59yeah whatever that uh but what I want to
2:30:02ask is could the scientification of
2:30:04Islam whether it is from the protoyo or
2:30:09another inclusively connecting all
2:30:12Muslims into this world because we have
2:30:16so many borders and limits that we
2:30:19should overcome
2:30:22and if it's not then do we still need
2:30:26something to unify all Muslims in this
2:30:30in today's world
2:30:33that's what I want to ask thank you
2:30:37>> okay thank you very much let's start to
2:30:39answer the questions maybe we can uh
2:30:42okay answer at once start from Profi
2:30:52I have I have an answer that perhaps
2:30:54could give ideas for the different
2:30:57questions that I believe we need to work
2:31:00in parallel lines. We need to work in a
2:31:03line that is within the system trying to
2:31:07change it and restructure it and a line
2:31:10that is outside the system trying to
2:31:13replace it. um the line from within the
2:31:17system. My brother mentioned for example
2:31:19the capitalist system. Um my brother
2:31:23mentioned the epistemology and ontology
2:31:26and that's
2:31:28Greek philosophy. So we can work within
2:31:31the system in order to redefine
2:31:33epistemology
2:31:35and redefine ontology and redefine
2:31:38banking and perhaps include some Islamic
2:31:42finances on the financial level. that is
2:31:46working within the system and in
2:31:49parallel to that I think we need to work
2:31:52outside the system in a strategy that is
2:31:57aiming to replace the system and
2:32:00therefore we try to look for non-
2:32:02capitalist ways of doing economics
2:32:06alaf for example alaf
2:32:09was the spine of the Islamic economics
2:32:12in our history hospitals were
2:32:15universities,
2:32:17um the relief work, the environmental
2:32:20work, um all of this was a was not a
2:32:23business and therefore yes we can work
2:32:26with education as a business and
2:32:28hospitals as a business and banks as a
2:32:31business within the system trying to
2:32:33change and islamize in the wasati
2:32:37Islamization kind of way but in parallel
2:32:41to try to create markets based on that
2:32:45is not based on credits. Trying to
2:32:47create hospitals that are not based on
2:32:50the pharmaceutical interests and focuses
2:32:54on the human and the welfare of the
2:32:56human regardless of the medicine and
2:32:58trying to create um systems of finance
2:33:04that are parallel to the banks rather
2:33:06than depending on the banks um and so
2:33:10forth. So to work in those parallel
2:33:12lines uh with a strategy I think would
2:33:15be a good idea. Similarly politically we
2:33:18can have Islamic parties and we try
2:33:21within the system to change the system
2:33:24but we should also look at politics
2:33:26outside the system which my sister
2:33:28mentioned Dr. mentioned the politics of
2:33:30the ummah that is not within the system
2:33:33because in a nation state people don't
2:33:35care about the ummah really but if you
2:33:37say that the ummah is part of our
2:33:40politics then the nation state will
2:33:43start to change some of its ideology and
2:33:46dogma and try to also give part of the
2:33:49attention and pay from the political
2:33:52capital for the ummah as well not just
2:33:56for the sake of elections and so forth.
2:33:59Um in terms of uh our sister the other
2:34:02question
2:34:04I believe the system will shake. I
2:34:07believe the system will change soon. Uh
2:34:10what's happening in the world is not
2:34:12going to pass just like that. And now we
2:34:15are in the age of peace. I don't think
2:34:16so. I think we are at the cusp of a
2:34:21start of major wars in this world.
2:34:25Anybody with a prediction of what's
2:34:28going to happen in the world would tell
2:34:30you that and I think that the major wars
2:34:34wars will be combined with major natural
2:34:38disasters. Uh I I believe in that and I
2:34:42think that this will shake the system
2:34:44and as an ummah we should be ready for
2:34:46that. We should be ready for the system
2:34:48when it starts to shake um because the
2:34:51system is quite fragile. Any volcano
2:34:54anywhere in the world will shut down the
2:34:56internet. Any solar flare will shut down
2:34:59the satellite system. Any you see and we
2:35:02are we're quite in a fragile point. I
2:35:04think the system will shake and our um
2:35:07inshallah hopefully inshallah will rise
2:35:10to the challenge inshallah.
2:35:24Uh I would like to respond about uh to
2:35:27the last question. Yeah. That um I think
2:35:33if we
2:35:35learn from the history actually the
2:35:38development of science was uh
2:35:42initiated by the the Muslim scholars. So
2:35:46we don't have to worry about
2:35:49uh inclusivity or you know exclusivity
2:35:53because uh if the science uh commit to
2:35:57the truth then it's it will
2:35:59automatically be inclusive
2:36:02and we we we already witnessed in the
2:36:05history you know like the math
2:36:06mathematic algebra algorithm
2:36:10uh physics uh the the the science of the
2:36:13light the optics
2:36:15the science of uh you know like the
2:36:18engineering it was started by the Muslim
2:36:22scholars and it was developed by the the
2:36:25western you know like the renaissance
2:36:27movement. So [clears throat] what we are
2:36:31what we should do is to learn from that
2:36:34and then we develop the the the science
2:36:40through the Islamic
2:36:42paradigm or perspective or belief system
2:36:44or worldview. Yeah. The problem with the
2:36:47conventional science today is is that uh
2:36:51they are missing the
2:36:55the greater purpose of knowledge. They
2:36:58they are missing the the humility of
2:37:02this scientist because uh there's a term
2:37:06called the science delusion. Yeah.
2:37:08Science delusion is represented by the
2:37:11statement that uh the statement uh that
2:37:14say I believe in science but I don't
2:37:16believe in god. So that is science
2:37:18delusion but actually science started
2:37:21from those who believe in god and even
2:37:24uh isak newton newton actually actually
2:37:27actually also uh believe in god Einstein
2:37:30also believe in god so but I don't know
2:37:33why uh you know recent I mean scientists
2:37:38uh nowadays they try to to avoid I mean
2:37:43they try to avoid talking about god they
2:37:47even have the term about that they call
2:37:49it uh scientific taboo. You know if if
2:37:53scientists talk about God they say it's
2:37:55scientific taboo. So I think the problem
2:37:59is you know is in our day I mean it just
2:38:03comes recently. Recently means maybe the
2:38:05last 50 years or something but if you
2:38:08look back actually uh you don't have to
2:38:11worry about inclusivity or exclusivity
2:38:14inshallah. Thank you.
2:38:20Okay, thank you very much for the
2:38:21questions. Uh first that act um Masunto
2:38:26was actually really concerned um about
2:38:30the division
2:38:32or distinguishing religion and science.
2:38:35Yeah, that this is a real problem. Uh
2:38:38because when you use that then usually
2:38:42you look at science as nonreligious
2:38:46or you see religion as non-scientific.
2:38:50Uh that's the problem. Uh so some
2:38:53scientists tend to reject religion and
2:38:56some religious people tend to reject
2:38:59science and that's actually a common
2:39:04situation uh in many cases. Yeah. Now uh
2:39:08basto wants uh to break down that
2:39:12spiration and that's why he want
2:39:17uh people to see Islam as more
2:39:20scientific.
2:39:21So what we have then is scientific how
2:39:25we built this course about Islam or
2:39:28about concept concepts in Islam
2:39:31scientifically
2:39:33and actually it's not very easy because
2:39:36number number one what we need to do is
2:39:39translating
2:39:41yeah books written by
2:39:46Muslim scholars into English or into
2:39:49Basa Indonesia that's what we to do
2:39:53otherwise we cannot under we know what
2:39:55they thought what they what they have
2:39:57thought yeah that's the first and then
2:40:00second we need really to um understand
2:40:03yeah discuss the meanings of the key
2:40:06words concepts like um and so forth yeah
2:40:11with really deep um
2:40:14uh thought yeah uh so that we can
2:40:19understand together those concepts and
2:40:23use it uh properly. Yeah. To
2:40:28make it uh society better or the
2:40:31political system better something like
2:40:32that. Yeah. Yeah. So again go back to
2:40:35Masundo that's actually his problem. how
2:40:38we can build our uh make uh discourse
2:40:43discourses or discussions yeah about
2:40:47Islamar more scientifically and some
2:40:50ideas in religion can be explained
2:40:53scientifically
2:40:54that's why also he used uh structuralism
2:40:58of less
2:41:00if you look at his books try to uh put
2:41:03that structure into religion into
2:41:06understanding Islam So that it's
2:41:09becoming more regional or something like
2:41:11that. Yeah. And when it becomes more
2:41:13regional then people may accept that
2:41:17that's what he want to do. Yeah. That's
2:41:20why u his ideas uh I think the the main
2:41:25ideas of masc about scientification of
2:41:29Islam. Yeah. how make u discourse in
2:41:32Islam more scientific and we can use
2:41:35yeah uh concept concepts in science
2:41:38especially of course western science
2:41:40yeah into our discourse in Islam so that
2:41:44people can understand better and also
2:41:47can accept that I think that's the the
2:41:50main uh aim of masto when he wrote uh
2:41:55about Islam as a paradigm thank you for
2:41:58the
2:42:00Thank you professer, profus and profi
2:42:04for all kind of uh answer. Uh finally we
2:42:08reached the last sessions. Yeah. Uh we
2:42:11have to round and uh due to the time we
2:42:14don't have enough time to add more
2:42:17questions. Yeah. uh behalf on uh the
2:42:20committee. I myself yeah uh tried to
2:42:24okay uh to apology for all kind of
2:42:27lacking some things uh during my uh
2:42:30leading on this discussions and uh one
2:42:33point or two points that I got from our
2:42:36distinguished uh for from our three est
2:42:39team speakers that we need to be more
2:42:42pluralistics or uh to endorse pluralisms
2:42:46uh to involve every kind of knowledge.
2:42:49Yeah. to be inclusive epistemologically
2:42:51and also ontologically as Mr. Praa said
2:42:54before. Okay, thank you very much. I
2:42:56will return back to the MC. Thank you
2:42:59very mucham.
2:43:03[applause]
2:43:07>> Thank you Dr. Rodinal Hoyosi for leading
2:43:10the session and also to the speakers for
2:43:12delivering such an informative
2:43:13presentations.
2:43:15And for the moderator and speakers, we
2:43:17kindly request you to return to your
2:43:20seats so that we can take a group photo
2:43:23together with the audience.
2:43:27Uh so yeah, the photographer will
2:43:29capture the photo from the stage. Uh and
2:43:33so we kindly invite all the invited
2:43:36guests and participants to uh move
2:43:38forward to the centers uh so all of us
2:43:42can include in the photos.
2:43:54>> Okay, please move forward to the center.
2:43:59>> Yeah, we will take a photo.
2:44:30Uh, photograph.
2:44:36Okay. Uh, so the photographer will take
2:44:38a picture of us from the stage.
2:45:05Okay, for the mass photographer, please
2:45:07give us a cue so we can prepare our best
2:45:10smile.
2:46:00Wow.
2:46:35Okay. Basically, it's a freestyle. You
2:46:37can [laughter]
2:46:57Okay, thank you.
2:46:58>> Okay. Uh
2:47:09uh okay. And we invited the moderator,
2:47:13the speakers and the invited guest for
2:47:15taking a picture in the stage.
2:47:17uh with the background.
2:47:26Okay. Uh
2:47:29we invite all the invited guests and the
2:47:33parties and the moderator and speakers
2:47:36to come forward to the stage.
2:47:44>> Okay. for the photographer. Please
2:47:47take us a picture.
2:48:01Uh okay. Uh due to our time
2:48:16Okay.
2:48:41One, two,
2:48:44one more. One, two,
2:48:48three.
2:49:05ready. One, two, three. Again,
2:49:11two.
2:49:13Okay. Thank you.
2:49:15>> All right. Thank you. And we kindly ask
2:49:18you uh ask all the distinguished guests
2:49:20and participants to
2:49:24uh take your perspective seats. So uh we
2:49:26can uh move to our next session.
2:49:30>> Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, before you
2:49:32leave the room, we would like to make
2:49:34some announcement. Please maintain
2:49:36cleanliness and orderliness within the
2:49:38campus environment. Do not leave trash
2:49:40and litter in the given area.
2:49:42Participant may immediately leave and uh
2:49:46perform the dur prayer outside the valer
2:49:48area or you can also perform it on
2:49:50second floor.
2:49:59>> Okay, that concludes the international
2:50:01seminar on Islamic thought and
2:50:03civilization 2025. on behalf of the
2:50:06organizing committee and as your master
2:50:09of ceremonies today we both are deeply
2:50:12grateful for your presence and
2:50:14participation during this event. We hope
2:50:17to see you again on the next
2:50:20international seminar on Islamic thought
2:50:22and civilization.

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