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Institutional Crypto Capital Flows - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2026 — Transcript

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0:08Well, ladies and gentlemen, thanks so
0:10much for joining us here. There's a lot
0:12of stages from which to choose, so we're
0:15very pleased that you decided to sit on
0:18this session to discuss what's happening
0:21in the institutional crypto market, and
0:23we have three very special panelists
0:27from different vantage points of the
0:29industry, asset management,
0:30>> [clears throat]
0:31>> crypto native exchange, and of course
0:33CME being the derivatives powerhouse.
0:36Um
0:37I guess we can sort of just start with
0:39one question, given that we're all
0:41US-based,
0:43but here in Singapore,
0:45how has the, you know, development of
0:47institutional product from ETFs to
0:50futures
0:51um shifted
0:53um the concentration of liquidity from
0:57offshore to the United States?
0:59>> Yeah, thank you so much, and it's it's
1:02great to be back in Singapore. I think
1:04when you look at just the evolution of
1:06the space, you know, CME first entered
1:08this space back in December 2017.
1:11You know, we are the natural home, say,
1:13for crypto derivatives,
1:15and we really helped to to grow this
1:17ecosystem. Just considering that when we
1:19first launched back then, we were
1:21averaging about $100 million a day. Last
1:23year, we averaged 12 billion. We have a
1:26family of reference rates and real-time
1:28indices that are the underlying
1:30references for a lot of the spot ETFs.
1:33And what we noticed, particularly with
1:34the introduction of of of spot ETFs, is
1:37that you started to see really a shift.
1:39When you consider like how crypto
1:41started, it was primarily retail driven.
1:45Perpetuals came along pretty early. Also
1:48a fairly retail driven product, but it
1:50was really until our futures launched,
1:53and then those spot ETFs launched in
1:55early 2024, that we started seeing more
1:58and more institutions enter the space.
2:01Just to put that in perspective, in
2:032023, we averaged about $2 billion a
2:06day.
2:07When the ETFs launched in 20 in 2024,
2:11we averaged about $7 billion a day and
2:13like I mentioned, 12 billion last year.
2:14So, we are seeing more and more
2:16institutions come into the space and I
2:18would also characterize that the way
2:21that these different
2:22participants
2:23say
2:25integrate with with the marketplace, the
2:28ETFs allowed for traditional
2:30institutions, the hedge funds, the banks
2:33to really enter the space where they
2:35couldn't previously or weren't
2:38comfortable say trading on some of the
2:40unregulated platforms or even some of
2:42the centralized exchanges, but the ETFs
2:44really changed that. And I think a good
2:46thing to look at is just look at volume
2:49compared say to open interest. When you
2:52see
2:53the volume of the ETFs, I think
2:55this year they're averaging about $3
2:57billion a day. You look at the AUM, the
3:00AUM is about 100 billion. So, very low
3:04turnover ratio. You compare that now say
3:06to perpetuals, perpetuals extremely high
3:09volume, but really low open interest.
3:12You tend to see
3:14a lot of churn, but you really don't see
3:16institutions adapting to those
3:19to those products at the moment.
3:22>> How would you describe
3:24the penetration of institutions?
3:26>> Yeah, I think it's really interesting
3:28because you know,
3:29what we've seen from traditional clients
3:31especially is they still really want to
3:33gain digital asset exposure through
3:35traditional vehicles. And that's why
3:36Invesco has been focusing on really
3:38launching crypto ETPs and supporting
3:40them since 2019 both in the US and
3:42Europe.
3:44What we are seeing is higher allocation
3:47to to those products.
3:48And also, I think they're getting more
3:50intrigued by the net utility that can be
3:52created, so things like integrating
3:53staking into certain products that are
3:55applicable. Um, you know, different ways
3:57to accept certain spot offerings um in
4:00kind. Uh, so that has really I think uh
4:03widened the opportunity and hopefully I
4:04think what now we're seeing is a
4:06movement from more single spot crypto
4:08ETFs to more multi-asset
4:11um and complex offerings.
4:13And that's really on the the traditional
4:15um vehicle side of things. What we're in
4:17parallel seeing is uh really a focus on
4:20tokenized products. And with that, that
4:23is um a different uh right now investor
4:25base. It is more um on-chain clients who
4:28manage their either entire portfolio or
4:30business on chain. But what's
4:32interesting is actually who is buying
4:34those is actually a pretty global in
4:35nature.
4:37>> It's interesting. Your answer really
4:38captures the dichotomy that exists in um
4:43you know, the the phrase institutional
4:45adoption, right? On one hand, it could
4:46mean the adoption of tokenization of
4:49real-world assets. That is to say, you
4:52know, like we're seeing with New York
4:53Stock Exchange and other exchanges
4:55rolling out
4:57um
4:57you know, tokenized equities platforms.
5:01On the other end, right, it's the actual
5:03allocation to to these crypto assets
5:06themselves, right? To Bitcoin, Ethereum,
5:08and then the long tail. Um
5:10Liz, uh one thing that I've always
5:13enjoyed in in following the the earnings
5:16of of your firm Coinbase is there's been
5:19a number of um
5:20I don't know if it's every earnings, but
5:22they often give an update on the the
5:24extent to which
5:26um they've expanded the the client base
5:28among the top largest hedge funds. Um so
5:31focusing on on that sort of allocation
5:33element, are you noticing that there's a
5:35net new buyer of of crypto assets? Um
5:40what does that sort of um penetration
5:42looks like from the outer layer
5:44perspective?
5:45>> largely agree with both of your
5:46comments, which are ETFs are a big
5:48driver and it's still pretty early.
5:51Um,
5:51but we do see net new buyers actually
5:53this year in particular because there's
5:55been so much more regulatory clarity
5:57>> Mhm.
5:58>> in the US in particular. People that
6:00have been waiting for, you know, a
6:03couple years to and you're trying to
6:05figure out when not if they would put
6:07more um into the space and increase
6:10their allocations are really coming to
6:12the table. I agree in in the traditional
6:15um institutional space they like the
6:17more traditional vehicles.
6:19Um so you don't see the same interest
6:21let's say in in perps as you would see
6:23in, you know, an ETF or or spot, but
6:26we're definitely seeing the net new
6:27buyer and then I would say more locally,
6:29you know, as um you know, there's been a
6:32pretty strong AI trade obviously and big
6:35tech trade over, you know, the past
6:37number of years and so as you start to
6:39see some rotation out of that, I think
6:42we've seen that's where more of like the
6:44active hedge active hedge fund community
6:47has been more involved as they use
6:49crypto as you know, an an avenue to kind
6:52of roll out of some of the big tech and
6:54some of the AI and diversify a little
6:55bit.
6:56>> I think the rotation is definitely real.
6:58I mean, when you think about the gains
7:00that we've seen in AI and the um
7:03distressed nature of crypto these since
7:0610/10 of last year, um
7:09there's an opportunity there. Um
7:11so how has
7:12>> add a little bit little bit more to
7:14that. I think
7:15>> I think the other thing that's
7:16interesting is that when you saw sort of
7:19how institutions started coming into
7:20this space, particularly like hedge
7:22funds, it was a lot of a basis trading.
7:24So it's more arbitrage, not really
7:26allocation, but I think the trend that
7:28we're starting to see now is that you're
7:30really beginning to see the allocators
7:31into the space and and and just going
7:33back to the point on the ETF,
7:35you see the growth in in AUM on those
7:37products cuz you see people holding
7:40positions. They're not just there to
7:42capture, you know,
7:44an arm
7:44>> It's a great point. I I mean, what
7:46you're describing, right, is this shift
7:48from a lot of these tools, these ETPs,
7:50ETFs, um
7:51from being trading tools to actual
7:54access vehicles, right? Um so, how has
7:57that changed the
7:59Maybe get your take um
8:01on how that's changed the dynamics of of
8:03this market and its market structure. Um
8:06with more institutional flows, have have
8:08we noticed any sort of um fundamental
8:10changes in maybe the volatility or or
8:14the dynamics of of crypto over um these
8:18past
8:19uh let's call it the past year or so?
8:21>> Yeah, I'll chime in. I mean, it it's
8:23still early, but I think with more
8:24institutional adoption, um
8:27you definitely have a more you have a
8:29bid, you know, there's a bid below the
8:31market as, you know, crypto sells off,
8:34um you see buyers are standing there.
8:36Some of the institutional holders are
8:38longer holders, right? So, corporates,
8:40high net worth doesn't usually sell,
8:42they buy when it goes down. Um dots
8:44usually are, you know, are net buyers,
8:47and so we have seen sort of a bid below.
8:50And I think the other thing that's
8:51really been um interesting is, you know,
8:54we acquired the largest crypto options
8:57um
8:59uh exchange in the world, Deribit, about
9:01a year ago and announced the completion
9:03of that integration yesterday with
9:05Coinbase Global Exchange, but, you know,
9:07you also have the more natural things
9:09that many institutions would do when
9:10they allocate, which is, you know, sell
9:12calls to get yield, maybe buy puts, sell
9:14calls, and so you do get some dampening
9:17of kind of volatility where if it goes
9:19down, they're net buyers, and if it goes
9:21up, you have like, you know, market
9:23makers that are long a lot of gamma and,
9:25you know, are net sellers. You get a the
9:27volatility, I think, helps as well.
9:29>> But certainly we have seen like
9:30volatility come down in the space. Like
9:32when we launched Bitcoin futures,
9:35volatility was triple digits, well in
9:37excess of 100. You look at Bitcoin
9:39volatility now and it's, you know, the
9:41pretty consistent in the 30 to 40 and
9:43really trading near
9:45the historical lows.
9:47>> Yeah, and just added to the Bitcoin
9:48point, I think that, you know, really
9:49what we're seeing is a lot of interest
9:51in Bitcoin still. I think the having an
9:53ETF wrapper is very powerful to think of
9:54that long-term allocation as more of a
9:56more of a buy and hold opportunity.
9:58>> One thing that we were talking about
9:59before while we were waiting in the
10:01wings, uh so to speak, in the speaker
10:04lines were uh the the narratives, right,
10:07that are maybe resonating with
10:08institutions.
10:10Have Have you folks in your
10:11conversations, I know you're you're
10:13flying everywhere all the time and
10:15talking to all all sorts of allocators,
10:18have you noticed that these narratives
10:19have have cemented and and people are
10:21grokking the value proposition of what
10:24these assets present?
10:26>> Absolutely. I think what's really
10:27interesting from a narrative perspective
10:28is still a ton of interest and
10:30excitement among what digital asset
10:32investment strategies can be launched,
10:33but actually the big shift is really
10:35trying to understand the new
10:36infrastructure that blockchain
10:38technology actually provides and how
10:39it's going to impact, you know, their
10:40ability to actually provide solutions to
10:42clients going forward as well. And so
10:44it's really a lot more about how it's
10:46fundamentally shift how we operate over
10:48time as well beyond just digital asset
10:51investment strategies that are still
10:52absolutely critical.
10:53>> And we've moved from what is it? What's
10:56a cryptocurrency? To really now what's
10:58what's possible, right? And
11:00talk to more and more institutions and
11:01it's all about a lot of talks about
11:03tokenization and and really how can we
11:05tap into that? How can we
11:07generate faster settlement times, you
11:09know, how can we create some more
11:11capital efficiencies?
11:13>> You're a newer entrant, Liz, in in some
11:16respects to
11:18your former colleagues, um
11:20or or folks from your old world
11:23see the value more than maybe they did
11:25when you left
11:2711 months ago?
11:28>> I mean, they're certainly putting their
11:30uh, investment dollars behind it, you
11:31know, if they think of my old old firm,
11:35you know, they're
11:36launching their own ETFs, they're
11:38obviously getting involved, uh, they
11:40custody a lot of Ibit and things like
11:41that. So, you know, you're definitely
11:43seeing even the large TradFi banks
11:46find their space as well in the area.
11:50>> It is pretty well incredible how much
11:51investment has actually gone in the
11:52ecosystem as well from traditional
11:54institutions as well. Again, because of
11:56that shift into new infrastructure and
11:58they're really seeing the need to
11:58actually start building that core
12:00capability to be able to launch and
12:02manage more tokenized products going
12:04forward.
12:05>> It almost seems like crypto in many ways
12:07is,
12:08um,
12:10pushing traditional finance towards new
12:12products, right? It's almost in the
12:14driver's seat in terms of, um, you know,
12:17the push towards 24/5 or 24/7,
12:20um, perpetuals, and then of course RWAs.
12:24Um,
12:25you know, if
12:26I don't know the extent to which things
12:28like, um,
12:30you know, perpetual markets have given
12:32an indication to where we'll open on a
12:34given, um,
12:36you know, over the weekend, um,
12:38but it seems like there's there's eyes
12:40there, there's attention.
12:42Um,
12:43do you do you see
12:45crypto driving,
12:47you know,
12:48I guess the question pertains more to
12:50you two
12:51than Liz, um, non-crypto specific
12:54efforts and endeavors?
12:56>> Absolutely. I think especially right now
12:58when it comes to actually tokenize
12:59products, I mean, we're actually like,
13:01you know, we're only going to tokenize a
13:01product if it creates net new utility,
13:03so either net new benefits, um, and that
13:05really comes from actually working with
13:07like, you know, on-chain native clients
13:10to better understand what their needs
13:11are, what are their requirements to
13:12build these offerings because right now
13:13they are our target audience for
13:15delivering these solutions.
13:16>> And and I think that we're really moving
13:18to toward a world where
13:20it it's not going to be TradFi, it's not
13:23going to be DeFi, it's going to be
13:24somewhere in the middle. Um,
13:26you know, it's going to be a more of a
13:28hybrid type model and and maybe we don't
13:30talk um,
13:31high five, for example, but eventually
13:33it's just finance, right?
13:34>> Mhm. Yeah.
13:35But I think you're right. There is
13:37I don't think it's crypto that has, you
13:40know, kind of driven the progress, but,
13:42you know,
13:43I think it's actually the firms that
13:46trist originally were trading crypto,
13:48creating these exchanges, creating these
13:50products, really raised the bar
13:52>> Yeah.
13:52>> on what's possible. And so, you know,
13:54once you get a big retail community
13:57around the world that gets used to
13:58trading 24/7 on Bitcoin,
14:02and then the same on the same venue they
14:04can trade 24/7 on an equity perp,
14:06suddenly the equity market has to
14:08respond to the fact that people are
14:11trading Nvidia 24/7 outside the US and
14:14there's not that same access for non-US
14:18people generally to get access to those
14:20same US stocks and even now US people
14:23are dying to trade 24/7 as well. And so,
14:25I think it's more of the crypto the
14:28crypto companies themselves and the way
14:29that people traded have now actually
14:32pushed the bar. And so, you know, at
14:34Coinbase we say that we're like we're
14:36trying to improve the financial system
14:38through like the use of crypto
14:39cryptography and blockchain. And I think
14:42that's what's kind of happening. And so,
14:43we see it in other parts as well as, you
14:45know, once you start talking about
14:47tokenization, we've seen probably the
14:49best use cases in tokenization outside
14:51of stablecoins in um, you know,
14:54tokenized equity trading globally.
14:56But now all the institutions are trying
14:59to figure out like should I be
15:01tokeni- using tokenized money market
15:04funds or stocks or things like that as
15:06collateral. Is it easier to move that
15:09around 24/7 for derivatives collateral
15:13around the world, you know, and those
15:14types of things. And so, I think it's
15:16just sort of raised the bar.
15:18>> Mhm. I think that's fair. You know, you
15:21can imagine a future where there's going
15:22to be an order of magnitude
15:25of new ways to trade a single equity
15:28name, right?
15:29Um, you'll have a thousand different
15:31ways to express a view on any given name
15:33or asset, which raises the question of
15:36to what extent does that introduce new
15:38fragmentation to the market and fragment
15:41liquidity? Going back to the uh, you
15:43know, kind of first question, where will
15:45liquidity be um, concentrated? Um,
15:49>> Yeah, fair. I mean,
15:50>> Yeah, sure. I mean, I you you you keep
15:51seeing um, different platforms now
15:54offering perpetual. It seems that you
15:55know, everybody seems to be wanting to
15:57offer those products. And to your point,
15:58Frank, it it does create a fragmentation
16:01issue. But but I think longer term, um,
16:03you know, we'll probably see some some
16:05consolidation. Um, you know, I think
16:07that uh, particularly institutional
16:09investors are going to seek uh, trusted,
16:12regulated, you know, KYC
16:14um, uh, firms um, to to execute
16:17positions. So, I think that that will
16:18help uh, you know, bring some of that
16:20fragmentation in. Um,
16:22liquidity is going to continued uh, to
16:24remain uh, you know, very important. And
16:27I think also, you know, to to the points
16:29that that Liz was making, it's those uh,
16:31platforms, those exchanges that that
16:33could offer a few things, right? And and
16:35and and offer sort of like the
16:38uh, most choice um, to to a client base
16:41and allow them the ability, say, to
16:44settle faster, allow them the ability to
16:46to realize capital efficiency so they
16:48don't have to have capital allocated
16:51across all these different venues.
16:53>> Liz, you agree?
16:54>> I understood agree with that. You know,
16:55I think traditionally we talk about
16:57fragmentation of like liquidity on
16:59exchanges, um, which is important, but
17:02technology has made that we've shown in
17:05equities markets or you know, globally
17:07that technology can solve that problem.
17:09For this market in particular, the real
17:12fragmentation that hurts uh, customers
17:15in the end is the lack of capital
17:16efficiency is that spot trades on one
17:19venue, perps trade another venue,
17:21options trade another venue. Can you
17:23actually like net your portfolio of
17:25equity perps with crypto perps? And so,
17:28I think there's two things, you know, in
17:29the announcements that we made yesterday
17:31about sort of you know, with Coinbase
17:33Advanced and having single portfolios
17:35and being able to actually get like one
17:36margin score and one posting of
17:38collateral across all your positions,
17:40that's um very cool for the retail
17:42investor, but I for institutional
17:45investors, that's where like the prime
17:47broker comes in. Yeah. And so, what
17:49you're seeing and there's there's not
17:50many that do it at full service,
17:52Coinbase Prime does. There's probably a
17:54couple others that do, but the
17:55importance for institutional investors
17:57of having a full-scale prime broker in
18:00the same way you would have it's like
18:01TradFi plus, you know, you can you can
18:03trade, you can finance, you can get
18:06borrow, you can custody, you can stake,
18:09all of that in one place is really the
18:11thing that reduces the fragmentation for
18:14institutions. Because most institutions
18:17aren't going to deal with like the auto
18:18liquidations on a single exchange.
18:20They're going to want their prime broker
18:22to manage that. You know, and that's the
18:24big um
18:26bringing that together, the prime
18:27brokers that can do that are the are the
18:29ones that take away the fragmentation
18:31and get the capital efficiency for
18:32institutions. Without that, I don't
18:34think you can have institutional
18:36adoption beyond just people buying ETFs.
18:38Like they won't be able to trade
18:39anything else.
18:41>> Absolutely. And also, the ability to
18:42actually operate like these tokenized
18:43products actually on chain. Like what
18:45we're seeing right now is a lot of
18:47issuers are actually issuing these
18:48products. We need to actually put them
18:49to work, and that's where like the
18:50innovation exemption in the US, that's
18:52going to help unlock that and really
18:53create utility for us to be able to do
18:55so. Because, you know, if you look at
18:56every tokenized product, it has their
18:58own AML KYC requirements, right? Like
19:00their own ways to operate, and that
19:01needs to really um change.
19:03>> What does a prime broker look like in 5
19:06years where you have tokenized equity?
19:08So, you know, I'm thinking about the ilk
19:11of the Morgan Stanley's and and you know
19:14UBS's of the world. Are they routing
19:17orders to tokenize venues? How how are
19:20they maybe thinking about
19:23those flows?
19:24>> Um
19:25I mean at this point the majority of
19:27that still remains in you know
19:29>> It's early.
19:29>> crypto backed prime brokers.
19:32Um but I think equity tokenization is
19:35probably the thing that will force the
19:37let's say stratified prime broker to get
19:40involved and
19:42it's not as obvious at the moment the
19:44innovation exemption that the SEC
19:47just put forward in the US which
19:49actually allows in a a permissive but
19:52also very restrictive way the ability to
19:55trade tokenized equities in the US. I
19:57think that we'll learn from but it's
19:59quite narrow. So it's not 100% clear
20:03that we're going to have an enormous
20:04amount of tokenized equities trading for
20:07in the US in particular but what is
20:09clear is that
20:11um you know when we talk to our asset
20:14management customers you know two thirds
20:16of them are extremely interested in
20:18using tokenization either for
20:20distribution or for money movements and
20:23capital and collateral movements. And so
20:24I think every
20:26prime broker if will have to support
20:28that.
20:29>> Mhm.
20:29>> Um now the question is pace of adoption
20:31and I think that's the big thing. It's
20:33you know
20:34with tokenization right now particularly
20:36for institutions. Everybody's talking
20:38about it. It's like the topic du jour.
20:40Everybody feels like they need to figure
20:42out a strategy but there's a network
20:44effect that has to happen there.
20:46>> Mhm.
20:46>> You know if if sort of the people who
20:47want to use it to collateralize or have
20:50to have people who will take it and
20:53there needs to be more than just two.
20:54And so it's a network effect and so I
20:56think the pace of I think it will take
20:59longer than people think for the amount
21:01of conversation we're talking about
21:03right now and in the industry
21:05it makes it feel like it's 6 months out.
21:08It's probably a couple years.
21:10>> We didn't bring our crystal balls to
21:11Singapore.
21:13>> But it is driven by institutional market
21:14participants, right? I mean, there's
21:15more institutional market participants
21:16and that's where, you know, we need to
21:18have more use cases. Like right now,
21:19tokenized money market funds have found
21:21great product market fit, but we need
21:22more tokenized equities, tokenized ETPs,
21:25tokenized private credit in order to
21:26have, um, you know, more more liquidity
21:29and more options on chain. I think
21:30there's a lot of great progress with
21:32what's happening, um, around stablecoin
21:33adoption. Uh, nationally, we will help
21:35really uh, enable flywheel to have more,
21:38um, liquidity to be able to, um,
21:40launch more tokenized products.
21:41>> But I think the other thing that we'll
21:42need, right? Cuz to the to the point
21:44that you made is that right now, we do
21:46have prime brokers in the space, but but
21:48they're, you know, say crypto, uh, prime
21:50brokers.
21:52But I think what we really need is the
21:53are the banks to really step into the
21:55space cuz if you want to do these
21:56businesses at scale and you want to see
21:58larger institutions come in, I think
22:00that you really do need the banks to
22:03to start playing ball.
22:04>> Liz is showing them how it's done.
22:07>> [laughter]
22:07>> Trying.
22:09>> So, what do we think is the most
22:10overrated and underrated, um, element of
22:14crypto institutionalization that, uh,
22:16you know, captures the zeitgeist?
22:20>> I would say, you know, I think the most
22:21overrated is what we what we just
22:23mentioned is that everything's going to
22:24happen all at once. Like this is going
22:25to take time. I mean, it is pretty
22:26staggering some of these estimates we're
22:28seeing. You know, I think that, um, a
22:29large bank estimated that by 2030, the
22:31bull case is over a trillion. That's a
22:33little over the little over 3 years
22:34away. Um, same with stablecoins from,
22:36uh,
22:37300 billion to 3 trillion, um, by 2030
22:40as well. Um, underrated, uh, we're very
22:43excited for vaults. You know, thinking
22:45of, you know, really, um,
22:47rules-based pooled investment vehicles
22:49really brings a lot of opportunities,
22:50um, uh, for new solutions to enter for
22:52clients.
22:53>> Yeah, I I I think, um, overrated, you
22:55know, we spoke a lot about tokenization,
22:57for example, um, but we have to realize
22:59that it it's it's not a panacea, right?
23:01Um, you can't tokenize everything. Not
23:03everything should be tokenized, but it's
23:05a step in the right direction. It's
23:07going to take a
23:08take take take a little time.
23:10And I think
23:11underrated at
23:14You know, just going back to that point
23:15on perpetuals,
23:17I think the movements that we've seen
23:18with the introduction of ETFs has been
23:20really underrated by the space cuz I
23:22think that the ETFs and and the futures
23:25that you know that the back them and
23:26liquidity the futures are back them has
23:28really been instrumental in bringing
23:30institutions in into crypto.
23:32>> I think overrated. I said it in my last
23:35answer. I just think tokenization is
23:36going to take some time, but it will
23:37change things. It will make the It will
23:39make the financial system better. I
23:41mean, there does need to be
23:42sort of a rewrite of that
23:44infrastructure,
23:46but it's going to take some time.
23:47Underrated,
23:49I actually think is
23:51not giving credit to this industry for
23:53how much it's actually pushed the TradFi
23:55industry. Like somebody, you know, we're
23:56going to look back on this, you know, 10
23:58years from now and say
24:01we wouldn't have had all the
24:02perpification that we're seeing. We
24:04wouldn't have had as many thing as many
24:07assets suddenly have access for people
24:10because, you know, you tokenize private
24:12equity, private credit. I mean, I think
24:13this industry is really
24:15driving forward change and forcing
24:19the banks and TradFi institutions to to
24:21get let more people around the table.
24:24More people have access, more
24:26flexibility in how you trade, and I
24:28think that's very underrated.
24:31>> And you just add that too. It's also
24:32that that collaboration is critical.
24:33It's actually have this conversion. So,
24:35traditional institutions partnering with
24:37these on-chain native
24:39expertise. So, I mean, like, you know,
24:40for us, for example, we in our tokenized
24:42products have partnered with Superstate
24:44and I see it's been a incredible
24:45collaboration taking the best of both
24:47worlds and we'll be able to create
24:49meaningful products.
24:50>> But, [snorts] I think it's an excellent
24:51point, right? Cuz when I think about
24:53this space,
24:55we're competitors in some respects, but
24:57we're also collaborating. I think that
24:58we all have like the same common goal to
25:02to to grow this space, right? So so we
25:04can be competitors, but I think that
25:05we're more collaborators than
25:06competitors.
25:08>> And we need to collaborate to also grow
25:09the space. You know, it's still very
25:10early days. You know, if you think about
25:11how much capital potentially will move
25:13on chain, like that ability to
25:15collaborate to create industry
25:16standards, to create ways to you know,
25:18have more interoperability. Like these
25:20are real problems that we're having
25:21right now that we need to come together
25:22to find solutions for.
25:23>> Mhm. We could use a little less
25:26conferences, I think, though.
25:28>> [laughter]
25:29>> It's a lot of conferences.
25:31I'm getting tired. A lot of airline
25:33points, though.
25:34>> You were in Seoul just last week, right?
25:36>> was in Seoul last week. Going to
25:38Portugal next week.
25:40It's too much.
25:42He agrees.
25:44Um so 12 months from now, what do you
25:45think will be structurally different
25:48about the institutional crypto space
25:50relative to today?
25:52>> I I think some of the elements are
25:54already there, right? Um you know, I
25:55think you'll continue to see sort of um
25:59spot crypto regulated spot crypto,
26:02uh regulated ETFs. I think that that
26:04becomes sort of like more of the the
26:06access point. But I think what's going
26:08to be different then, though, is things
26:10like stable coin, the acceptance of um
26:12you know, tokenized money market funds
26:14and tokenized collateral in general,
26:16which will really help to accelerate
26:17overall adoption.
26:19>> Yeah, I think the new collateral types
26:21is going to be really interesting to
26:23watch.
26:24>> Absolutely. Yeah, I mean just this um
26:25where I started with the two different
26:27verticals, I hope from a crypto ETP
26:29perspective we see more multi-asset,
26:31more complex offerings. Um from a token
26:33space perspective, um we need to have
26:35more utility use cases. Like again, like
26:36that is something where um I think that
26:38hopefully with tokenized ETPs
26:39especially, we'll see much more
26:40meaningful adoption given all the
26:41innovation happening there.
26:43>> Close this out, Liz.
26:45>> I I think the one of the most exciting
26:47things now is just the rate of growth of
26:49stable coin use. Um and I think that
26:51will continue and really accelerate. And
26:54that is one of the places where you're
26:55seeing
26:56people making big bold moves
26:59to
27:00blend you know, TradFi and and DeFi
27:03here. I mean, we announced a big
27:05partnership with Samsung wallet here
27:07around using stable coins for
27:10cross-border payments, which we
27:11announced earlier this morning. We
27:12announced a deal with Citibank about
27:15being their
27:16rails for stable coin
27:19infrastructure. And so I will say like
27:21just I mean, circulation of stable coins
27:23was up nearly 100% last year. I mean,
27:25it's the pace is really fast there. And
27:28the use cases add they've solved real
27:31problems. Like real problems of moving
27:33things, you know, moving money over
27:35weekends, moving money across borders. I
27:37mean, things that the traditional
27:39banking system hasn't solved. So that I
27:42just think is like like a ball rolling
27:44down the hill right now. It's just going
27:45to keep picking up.
27:46>> Amazing. Well, let's give them a round
27:48of applause.
27:51>> Thank you.

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