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Inside the CIA’s Disturbing Interview Process | John Kiriakou — Transcript

by Dalton Fischer Podcast · 3,167 words · 437 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00he said now they're going to ask you
0:01some very disturbing questions questions
0:04that may make you upset he said just
0:07answer the question yes or no don't
0:09think about it if they say have you ever
0:11killed anybody say no don't think about
0:15what it might feel like to kill somebody
0:17just say no and focus on the
0:21spec I go to the address and it's this
0:24you know normal office tower that
0:26roslin's famous for and uh I go up to
0:30whatever it was I think it was the sixth
0:33floor and
0:35um and there's no like there's no name
0:38on the door nothing it's just a just a
0:42door so I knock on the door and this guy
0:47opens the door just to crack and he says
0:49are you here for Bob and I said yes so
0:53he lets me in and it's a little like a
0:55little 6x6 foot Atrium but the second
0:58door has has a big spin dial lock on it
1:02like a bank right so he does the
1:07dial and uh there's a woman on the other
1:09side and she said are you here for Bob
1:12and I said I am so she lets me in and
1:16I'm sitting there and then Bob comes out
1:21I still to this day I have no idea if
1:24his name really was Bob yeah and that's
1:26the only name I ever knew him by but he
1:29was like a
1:316'6
1:32320 lb loud smiling you know good old
1:39guy John I'm Bob how the hell are you
1:42and he shakes my hand come on
1:46in so he says Jerry says you're a good
1:49guy I said well I appreciate it I said
1:51he's an amazing Professor he's a great
1:53guy and he says John let me ask you
1:56something Have you ever betrayed a
1:58friendship and I was like oh
2:03uh I I don't think so I I hope not he
2:08said okay that's okay listen I want you
2:10to do a couple of things for me he says
2:14uh I want you to go to this address
2:17there are going to be some people there
2:19waiting for you and I said like right
2:21now and he says yeah right now I said
2:24okay he said ' then I want you to call
2:26me or better yet I'll call you I said
2:29okay
2:30so I go home I get in my car I drive out
2:34to this equally nondescript building in
2:36Vienna Virginia one-story flat building
2:40that you would drive past a thousand
2:42times you would never notice
2:43it so I ring the bell this guy lets me
2:47in you John and I said yeah come on in
2:50so I go there and there's a table with
2:53three chairs on one side and one chair
2:55on the other and in the three chairs are
2:59three people who never identified
3:01themselves by name but they identified
3:04themselves as being a psychologist a
3:08psychiatrist and an
3:10anthropologist so I sit
3:13down no hello how are you nothing I just
3:17sit down I said hello they all just kind
3:19of looked at me and then one of them
3:22says describe your relationship with
3:24your
3:25mother and I go oh I said yeah uh
3:30my mom and I are close she's a school
3:32teacher and uh you know she's terrific
3:36mother and very nurturing and you know
3:39took good care of all three of us and
3:41you know what do you
3:43say and then they're like okay describe
3:46your relationship with your father so I
3:49did I said my dad's a good guy he's kind
3:51of introverted my mom was the extrovert
3:52of the family was your father the
3:55disciplinarian and I said no actually my
3:58dad's a big strong guy and I think he
4:00was probably always afraid he would hurt
4:02us or something so no my dad my dad's a
4:04very gentle uh
4:07Soul um then they asked me that question
4:10again have you ever betrayed a
4:13friendship and I said I don't think
4:17so let me think about it for a second
4:20and then the Anthropologist says no no
4:22that's the answer we were looking
4:24for and then one of them says you're
4:27going to need to go into the Next Room
4:29and you need to give us some piss some
4:32blood and some hair I go okay so I went
4:38and gave him some piss some blood and
4:40some hair and then I
4:43left I went home I called my fiance she
4:47goes how did it go I said I have no idea
4:50they asked me these three weird
4:52questions it took 15 minutes then they
4:54took my pee my blood and and pulled some
4:57of my hairs
4:58out I get a call like four weeks later
5:01from Bob he goes you blew the doors off
5:04that
5:05meeting I go Bob I it was like from
5:09Bizarro world I I didn't understand what
5:12they wanted they wouldn't explain
5:14anything he said you aced it he said
5:18um now we want you to
5:22uh to go to headquarters you're going to
5:25have a meeting at
5:27headquarters so I said okay okay so I go
5:32to CIA
5:33headquarters and I went to like four
5:36different offices they ask me a thousand
5:39million
5:40questions and uh and I leave by then
5:43I've gotten married I go home she's like
5:47how did it go I said I don't have any
5:50idea there's no feedback there's no
5:53reaction from anybody there's no
5:55response nothing then Bob calls he goes
5:59goes you aced it man you aced it I go
6:03Bob there's no feedback he goes no you
6:07don't need any feedback he said they
6:09want you in your raw
6:10State I said okay so what next he goes
6:13look they're going to give you a
6:14polygraph exam and if you pass it you're
6:19in I was a nervous fraking wreck about
6:22the polygraph i' had never taken a
6:24polygraph
6:26exam so they scheduled the polygraph
6:30and I was very fortunate in that first
6:34polygraph because I had a very
6:37respectful uh young African-American
6:41woman and so um she hooks me up and it
6:47it's it's funny they they put a cuff on
6:50you like they're taking your blood
6:53pressure and then they put these
6:56electrodes on your fingertips then they
6:58put a a belt around you to measure your
7:01breathing then they put electrodes on
7:03your ankle and there was one other that
7:07they did like was it on my temple I
7:10don't remember anymore so you have to
7:12sit there like this and you can't move
7:15you just have to be as still as possible
7:17and you have to answer all the questions
7:19yes or no because the thing doesn't
7:21detect anything else it just detects
7:24bodily reactions increases in your heart
7:27rate or respiration sweating it's very
7:30very sensitive to
7:31sweating so I called Dr Post in advance
7:35and I I said listen any advice you could
7:38give me I would really really appreciate
7:40this because I've gotten so far in the
7:42process I really want this to happen so
7:45he
7:46said I can't really give you any
7:49Insider tips he said but I'll tell you
7:52something as a psycholog or as a
7:54psychiatrist he said you're going to be
7:57in a room that has nothing nothing on
7:59the walls it's just a white room with a
8:02window and of course they're going to be
8:05looking at you from the other side of
8:06the window as the polygrapher is doing
8:09the exam he said there's bound to be a
8:13speck on the wall he said focus on the
8:17speck think about nothing but the speck
8:22he said now they're going to ask you
8:23some very disturbing questions questions
8:26that may make you upset he said just
8:29answer the question yes or no don't
8:32think about it if they say have you ever
8:34killed anybody say no don't think about
8:39what it might feel like to kill
8:41somebody just say no and focus on the
8:45spec I sit down in the thing she wires
8:48me up and it takes a good 20 minutes to
8:50wire you up to this polygraph machine
8:53and I sit there and as soon as I I sit
8:55and I'm wired up I look and sure enough
8:57there's a speck like straight ahead of
8:59me so I'm looking at the
9:01spec and they start asking you questions
9:04have you ever committed a violent felony
9:07no have you ever um used a weapon in a
9:11crime
9:12no uh and then they get you know into
9:15more mundane things uh are you
9:19financially responsible
9:22yes
9:23um have you ever shoplifted anything no
9:27have you ever taken anything from the
9:29office worth more than $20 no um have
9:33you ever had sex with a man and she just
9:36threw that one at me like a grenade so I
9:39go no which was true um but I could feel
9:45my heart going like this like she's
9:48trying to trip me
9:49up and she says let's take a little
9:52break you're sweating
9:55profusely I can tell that you're nervous
9:57I said yeah you kind of thre threw that
9:59question out there like a grenade into
10:01the middle of the room she said it's a
10:03standard question I said I understand so
10:06I just kind of sat there for a couple of
10:08minutes and got my heart rate to slow
10:10down and um then she said I'll be honest
10:15with you you are reacting to one of the
10:18questions which was [ __ ] I was not
10:20reacting to one of the questions but
10:21this is I came to learn later in my
10:24career that this is a a turd that they
10:26throw at you to see how you respond to
10:28it
10:30I said okay and so she says I'm going to
10:34um I'm going to consult with my boss and
10:36then I'm going to come in and we're
10:37going to go back over the question that
10:40you're reacting to I was like great so
10:43she
10:44leaves and you know that they're right
10:46there on the other side of the window or
10:48of the mirror you can't see them but you
10:50know that they're there so she comes
10:51back in and she says you're reacting to
10:54the question about credit card usage I
10:57go what
10:59and she says yes um are you
11:02irresponsible with your credit cards I
11:05go no I I don't have any balance on my
11:08credit cards I pay my credit cards in
11:10full every
11:12month I'm still laughing about it all
11:14these years later this is 20 this is 25
11:17years ago no it's 35 years ago 35 years
11:22ago
11:23so she asked me again the credit card
11:26question and I I answered no
11:30and then she's like okay we're done so
11:32she starts unhooking me and I said how
11:36did I do and she said we're not allowed
11:39to say and she winked at me and I was
11:42like oh my God I can't believe I passed
11:46so I went home and I said to my wife I
11:48think I
11:49passed and then Bob called and he says
11:53they're fighting over you at
11:55headquarters Love Bob Bob was great it's
11:58it turned out that Bob was the director
12:01of HR for the entire CIA I would never
12:06ever have even met someone so important
12:10as this guy had it not been for Jerry
12:13post Jerry post God bless him who just
12:15died of covid a year ago um but man
12:20Jerry was was good to me really good to
12:24me even later in life he was even better
12:27to me yeah so
12:30um so I got multiple offers uh from the
12:33agency and
12:36um I decided not to go into operations
12:39right away because I was a Middle East
12:42specialist and so uh sorry to cut you
12:44off before we get into that um I want
12:46want to stay on the interview process
12:48it's just funny so um what were some of
12:51the other questions that you mentioned
12:53were disturbing that stands out and why
12:56what is the point of them asking those
12:59sorts of questions like what are they
13:00trying to select for that's a good
13:01question so I didn't know for a long
13:05time what the purpose of any of these
13:06questions was 10 years later I happened
13:11to uh be transferred
13:14overseas and one of my
13:17colleagues uh was a former polygrapher
13:20and I asked him that question what was
13:23the point of all these weird
13:25questions and he said I'm I can best
13:28answer your question with some anecdotes
13:31he says he goes look I've been a
13:33polygrapher for 25 years and over the
13:35course of 25 years I've had people
13:38applicants
13:40mostly admit to every crime you can
13:45imagine including
13:47murder because they think ah this is the
13:50CIA I'm going to do some wet work
13:51they're going to be impressed that I
13:53killed this guy in Syracuse and I buried
13:55his body under the train tracks right
13:57they're not impressed they're calling
13:59the FBI before you can leave the
14:01building and then the FBI is going to
14:03come and take you away which is exactly
14:05what
14:06happened so he said it's the the purpose
14:09is to Rattle you he said one of the
14:11things that we do and he said you may
14:13remember this we we always start off by
14:16saying we're not looking for Perfect
14:19People we're looking for honest people
14:23so just answer the questions truthfully
14:25and if there's something that you did in
14:27your past admit to it and we'll get
14:30through it that's [ __ ] they're not
14:33going to help you get through it they're
14:35going to call the FBI and they're going
14:37to report your confession that you just
14:40made to a Federal
14:42Officer so if you've done something if
14:45you've committed a felony don't apply
14:47for a job at the CIA and then confess it
14:49to the
14:51polygrapher that's not going to work for
14:54you so he told me that you know there
14:56was a guy who admitted to a murder in
15:00Syracuse and they got him walking out of
15:04the polygrapher uh polygrapher office uh
15:07he said there was another guy there was
15:08a guy that was a a janitor of all things
15:11because you know even the janitors need
15:13to have security clearances you're in
15:15the CIA we have classified stuff hanging
15:17up on the walls everywhere you turn your
15:19head and so uh you get a pre-employment
15:24polygraph you get one after 3 years
15:26that's your probationary period and then
15:28every five years for the rest of your
15:30career so he said this was a normal
15:34fiveyear they call it a reinvestigation
15:36poly now the in the pre-public pre um uh
15:42hire sorry and in the three year they
15:45ask you what are called lifestyle
15:47questions that is are you gay are you
15:50buy are you leather are you crazy are
15:53you a pervert you know do you like to
15:56beat prostitutes they ask you all that
15:59stuff after the three years they don't
16:01ask you any of that stuff anymore
16:03because by then they figure you know we
16:06know each other well enough that you're
16:07going to be okay
16:09um so he he
16:13said because they don't ask those
16:15lifestyle questions anymore he would
16:17always throw an extra question in at the
16:19end open-ended is there anything that we
16:22haven't talked about that you think is
16:25important 99% of the people say no
16:29some people say what do you
16:32mean he saidwell to this janitor things
16:37like murder rape robbery beastiality and
16:41the guy says what was that last
16:44one and my friend says I knew I had
16:47him he goes
16:50beastiality the guy says what's that
16:52mean and my friend
16:55says it's actually very common he says
17:00everybody does it it's having sex with
17:03an
17:04animal and the guy
17:06says I may have done that couple three
17:11times and my friend says okay well like
17:14I said everybody does it but just so we
17:17can get past it for the purpose of the
17:19polygraph um in what cases would you
17:22have sex with an animal the guy
17:25says well sometimes when I have fight
17:28with my wife to get back at her I go to
17:31the barn and I bugger the
17:34horse cuz it's her horse he said he gets
17:37up on a step stool and he gets the horse
17:41and he's like okay and you've done this
17:45more than once he said I may have done
17:47it a couple three
17:49times so he said needless to say they
17:51escorted him out of headquarters and
17:53took his badge and said don't ever come
17:55back yes but I never had to deal with
17:58anything like that I I used to in fact
18:01for my
18:03fiveyear I were I had been in like eight
18:05years at that point and I mentioned to
18:08one of my co-workers I said oh I got to
18:10drive out to Vienna I have uh I got my
18:13polygraph and so um his polygraph had
18:18taken two days because he was stuck on
18:22this question have you ever had
18:24unauthorized contact with a foreign
18:26intelligence service it's an important
18:27one it's an an
18:29one so my polygraph took 40 minutes cuz
18:34I never did
18:35anything and uh I come back and he had
18:39gone to lunch when I was getting ready
18:41to leave for the polygraph he came back
18:43from lunch and I'm sitting at the desk
18:44and he goes dude I thought you had a
18:46polygraph you better get going I said no
18:48no I did it I'm back he goes come on I
18:52said no I did
18:53it he said I was on for 2 days and they
18:57made me cry he says I said I I don't
19:03talk to libyans at cocktail parties
19:06which was his problem I said I I've I've
19:09never done anything I'm
19:10clean and so that was it I never ever
19:13had a problem with a
19:19polygraph what's up guys thank you so
19:21much for taking the time to watch the
19:23interview um as you could probably tell
19:25this is a brand new channel so if you
19:27got anything out of this at all please
19:30like the video leave me a comment tell
19:32me what you thought tell me who you'd
19:34like to see on the show um I see every
19:37like I read every comment and I
19:39appreciate all of it especially in the
19:41beginning because as you know that kind
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