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Injustice Anywhere interview with Death Row Exoneree Debra Milke — Transcript

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0:00welcome to the Injustice anywhere
0:02podcast
0:05tonight I will be speaking with death
0:07row exonary Deborah milky and in the
0:09second segment of the show I will be
0:11speaking with a man named Frankie who
0:12spent years advocating for Deborah's
0:14Freedom Frankie was truly the driving
0:16force behind the advocacy effort seen
0:18online before speaking to Debra I would
0:21like to provide a brief overview of her
0:22case please visit injusticehyphen
0:25anywhere.org to read a full case
0:27overview
0:28on Saturday December 2nd 1989
0:31four-year-old Christopher milkey was
0:33shot to death in the desert in an area
0:35just north of Phoenix Arizona three
0:37people would be convicted for the
0:38horrible crime James Styers Roger Scott
0:41and the victim's mother Deborah milky in
0:44the time leading up to her son's murder
0:46Deborah was sharing an apartment with
0:48James tires on the day of the murder
0:51Styers asked Deborah if he could use her
0:53car to go to the mall to do some
0:54shopping Christopher begged his mother
0:56to let him go along because he wanted to
0:57see Santa Claus again later that
0:59afternoon Styers reported Christopher as
1:01a lost child to the mall security and
1:03called Deborah telling her Christopher
1:05was missing Steiners told the police who
1:08had come to investigate that he had a
1:10friend Roger Scott who had seen him at
1:12the mall with the child Styers and Scott
1:14were brought into the police station and
1:16questioned throughout that night
1:17according to police Scott admitted that
1:19he knew that Christopher was dead and he
1:22agreed to show the police the location
1:23of the body Phoenix police detective
1:26Armando saldare reported that in route
1:29to the murder scene Scott made a claim
1:31that the boy had been killed because
1:33Deborah milkey wanted it done the report
1:35from another detective who was driving
1:37that vehicle does not mention any Claim
1:40by Scott Scott's alleged statement only
1:42reported by detective saldare is what
1:45led police to view Deborah as a suspect
1:47Debra voluntarily went to the police
1:49station to answer questions she was
1:52later questioned by detective saldade
1:54alone in a small room so that a claimed
1:57that Deborah confessed to him during her
1:5830-minute interrogation Deborah denies
2:01that she ever confessed to saldare and
2:03no record of her interview exists so
2:05that I did not record his interrogation
2:07of Deborah and claimed later that the
2:09notes he took had been destroyed
2:10furthermore there was no statement ever
2:13signed by Deborah James Styers denied
2:15Deborah was involved in Christopher's
2:17death and Roger Scott never accused
2:19Deborah in his court testimony in fact
2:21both men made absolutely no attempt to
2:24hit Deborah at trial and they were the
2:26only two at the mall that day with
2:28Christopher Deborah was convicted in
2:30what amounted to be a he said she said
2:32case between her and detective saldare
2:35so that A's testimony was the only
2:37evidence against Deborah yet it was
2:39enough to convince a jury that she was
2:40guilty saldare would later be exposed as
2:43a dirty cop racking up a laundry list of
2:46misconduct throughout his career those
2:48Revelations would eventually lead to
2:50Deborah's release but irreparable damage
2:52had already been done Deborah milke
2:54spent over 24 years in prison as an
2:56innocent person James Styers and Roger
2:58Scott remain on death row in Arizona for
3:01this crime I would now like to introduce
3:03our first guest to the show hello
3:05Deborah welcome to the Injustice
3:06anywhere radio program
3:08hello now you have many supporters in
3:11our group and Justice anywhere and I
3:13have no doubt that they're happy to be
3:14hearing from you tonight your case came
3:16to a close in March of this year in
3:18Arizona have you remained in Arizona
3:20since that time do you still call that
3:22state your home
3:23uh I I've remained in Arizona uh since
3:27March
3:28uh actually since um I've been really
3:31released but uh Arizona is not home to
3:35me anymore it's not the same
3:37I have to stay here for a little bit
3:39longer but it is it's not home it's
3:42I feel like a stranger in my own City
3:44so in the future do you have plans on
3:46leaving the state I do I I just don't
3:49know where
3:51but I do
3:53that's understandable
3:54uh seeing as you've spent so many hard
3:57years in that state most people cannot
3:59possibly imagine being convicted for a
4:01crime they did not commit and sentenced
4:03to death when you add in the fact that
4:05you were accused of being involved in
4:06the murder of your own child it makes a
4:09situation even more difficult to
4:10comprehend you were given no time at all
4:13in the beginning to grieve the loss of
4:15your son
4:16did you have support at that time to
4:18help you sort through all the
4:19overwhelming evidence that was being
4:21thrown at you or were you pretty much on
4:23your own
4:24I was pretty much on my own my uh my
4:28family turned against me but uh I should
4:32say that
4:33uh
4:35my parents
4:37they were very very conservative and my
4:40father was you know had a military
4:43background and he had this authoritarian
4:47uh demeanor and he worked at the state
4:52prison so he was of the mind that police
4:56don't lie they can't lie and so he just
5:00unfortunately he believed the police
5:03over me and then you know my my family
5:06just basically turned against me
5:09believed everything that they heard
5:11so I I went through this by myself which
5:14is a very difficult situation to endure
5:16how old were you at the time
5:19I was 25. now you mentioned in an
5:22interview that after your arrest shortly
5:23after your arrest you suffered from
5:25depression and panic attacks were you
5:27able to meet with your attorney at that
5:29period of time to even properly begin to
5:31discuss your defense
5:38your first trial lawyer at the time
5:40after your arrest you had mentioned that
5:43you had anxiety attacks and panic
5:45attacks I did while you were awaiting
5:48trial did this hinder your ability to
5:50participate in your own defense
5:53uh
5:55yes yes and no
5:58um
6:00I've never been in the system before so
6:03I didn't know how it how it it operated
6:08um back then I was just very naive and
6:12uh I uh
6:14I did suffer from panic attacks and
6:16anxiety and depression and it got to a
6:21point where I had to take medication for
6:23it
6:24now were you given proper treatment for
6:26your depression while in the jail
6:28waiting for trial yes I I I was okay now
6:33your trial was basically he said she
6:36said situation as I mentioned in the
6:38intro tonight the only evidence against
6:40you was an alleged confession that
6:42investigator Armando saldate claimed to
6:45obtain from you in a closed room with no
6:47Witnesses and no recording device the
6:50confession lacked your signature as well
6:52which came as no surprise to you I'm
6:54sure right with such flimsy evidence
6:57were you confident when the trial began
6:59that things would work out okay
7:01well I don't know about confident like I
7:05said back then I was only 25 years old
7:07and
7:09I knew I I didn't confess first of all I
7:13wasn't involved in the crime
7:15and then I I did not confess to him and
7:19I just assumed that once all this went
7:22to a trial that
7:24uh a jury would see this that the
7:27obvious they would see the obvious so I
7:31just I believed back then that I would
7:34be found not guilty
7:37and obviously as we know sitting here
7:40today that was not the case
7:42true after you were found guilty can you
7:45remember standing in court hearing the
7:47judge sentence you to death are those
7:49details too traumatic to recall
7:52no I remember her saying I
7:58I prior to
7:59prior to my sentencing because I was
8:02convicted in October and then I was had
8:05a sentencing date in January of the next
8:07year and prior to that my my lawyer was
8:11prepping me
8:13to
8:15receive a life sentence
8:18and uh and he kept telling me just
8:21because they give you a life sentence
8:23doesn't mean that's what it is
8:26um you have appeals and all that and so
8:30I went into court thinking okay she's
8:33gonna sentence me to life and but it
8:36it's not going to be that way and then
8:39it was very shocking when she sentenced
8:42me to death I I
8:44I remember her saying it but it was so
8:48surreal I just
8:50it almost felt like an out-of-body
8:52experience
8:53now before the the actual conviction was
8:56your attorney
8:57confident in the in the case or was he
8:59preparing you all along for this
9:01possibility
9:09uh he just he you know he he did the
9:13best that he could I guess back then
9:16um
9:18I
9:19I just basically used Common Sense uh I
9:23wasn't at the crime scene I was not a
9:26part of the crime
9:27uh I did not confess there was no
9:30evidence of a confession I didn't there
9:33was no there were no audio no witness I
9:36didn't sign anything and I just kind of
9:39assumed that uh
9:41the lay people that are that sit on a
9:44jury would would you know
9:47would realize
9:49well there's nothing here sure
9:52I really I just I don't like to use the
9:54word confident but I I thought that I
9:57would you know that I would be acquitted
9:59Common Sense was telling you that you
10:01would be acquitted right
10:04now you entered death row I mean this is
10:07not just prison this is death row
10:09can you describe the conditions you
10:11entered
10:12as you first walked into those doors uh
10:16death row well first of all there was no
10:19death row for women
10:22um I I went into Perryville prison which
10:24is uh the women the women's prison and
10:29um
10:29after I got sentenced I stayed in the
10:32jail for about two weeks until
10:34Department of Corrections could figure
10:37out what to do with me
10:39and uh and then on February 4th 1991 is
10:44when I went to Perryville
10:46and I had no idea what a prison would be
10:50like
10:51and
10:52uh when I got there and I was ready to
10:56be escorted to where I was going to live
10:58they ended up putting me in a in the
11:00lockdown area
11:01where a lot of the disciplinary inmates
11:04live
11:06and I had a room that was uh
11:10secluded from everybody else
11:12but I remember vividly walking across
11:16the yard
11:17looking at this place and just telling
11:20myself this is not my home I'm not gonna
11:23die here I'm not gonna live here forever
11:25one day I'm Gonna Leave This Place
11:28so I just had it to me it was just a
11:31temporary
11:32living situation now were you mistreated
11:35by prison staff or by other inmates due
11:38to the nature of the crime
11:39at first I wasn't
11:41at first uh you know like anywhere
11:46uh you know people don't they only know
11:49what they hear they don't know the
11:50person and so at first they were
11:53standoffish and uh you know just like in
11:58in public you you meet rude people
12:01and it was just it was the same there
12:05um but after a while until people got to
12:07know me then it changed so you were not
12:11in complete solitary confinement you
12:13were able to interact with other inmates
12:15well I was in complete solitary
12:17confinement physically
12:20um but I
12:22there were other inmates that lived
12:24around me and I was able to after a
12:28while not right away but after a while I
12:30was able to
12:33um communicate with other inmates but I
12:35was never allowed
12:37to be physically
12:39uh have physical contact with anybody
12:41okay now your case is unique because
12:44being a woman there wasn't there wasn't
12:47anybody else on on that row with you so
12:50it wasn't technically death row so
12:52you're speaking with other people that
12:53are eventually going to be getting out
12:55in most cases or no
12:56yes well I mean I met people that were
12:59that had life sentences
13:01I met people that were convicted of
13:03murder and had life sentences
13:06um I I met people that were what they
13:10call short timers which you know they
13:12did a few years and got out
13:14okay so it's a little bit more unique
13:17for you than others I've spoken to on
13:19death row
13:20because because of that situation now
13:23were you allowed to have visitors
13:26I was
13:32a family that was in Germany as well so
13:34were there really did you have active
13:37visitors coming to see you at those
13:38times
13:40um I did in the beginning
13:42um you know some old friends from my
13:45past but uh it it was so excuse me
13:50psychologically traumatizing for me
13:55to see them
13:57and I couldn't
13:59touch them and you know the whole time I
14:03I didn't belong there I knew I didn't
14:05belong there and it was hard for me to
14:09it was hard for me to deal with that so
14:12there came a time when I just couldn't
14:14see anybody
14:16I I chose not to have visitors because
14:18it was too traumatizing for me
14:21emotionally and psychologically
14:23did you feel the same feelings when
14:25people that you were speaking to in the
14:27prison were able to leave did you ever
14:29have that situation where a good friend
14:31that you had met
14:32while speaking in that area was released
14:44and and
14:46I would always ask
14:48you know when is it going to be my turn
14:51and then after a few years of that then
14:55I switched it around in my mind and I it
14:58was okay for me to see people leave and
15:01then I would tell myself you're gonna
15:03leave one day too so you slowly built up
15:06a strength to to learn how to deal with
15:08that
15:09yes I did
15:11it's like you try to make the
15:16I had no choice but to stay there so I
15:20had to learn how to adapt to my
15:22environment
15:24yeah you're speaking to us today as a
15:26free person but this journey for you has
15:28been incredibly long
15:30so many of our
15:32our members in our group asked the same
15:34question many many times what gave you
15:37the strength to carry on day after day
15:40well nobody
15:42the police
15:45did not properly investigate this crime
15:49against my son
15:50and I went into prison
15:54well actually it was actually at my
15:57trial but afterwards I went into prison
15:59not knowing what really really happened
16:01to my son
16:03and
16:05I giving up was not an option for me at
16:09all
16:10so in addition to fighting for my own
16:12life
16:13I had to know what really happened to my
16:16son and so
16:19uh fighting for myself and for
16:22Christopher is what kept me going
16:26not knowing exactly what happened to him
16:30drove you to want to be released from
16:32prison so you could find out the details
16:34of his death
16:36well I was learning the
16:41deep Freedom yes okay I didn't wait
16:44until after I was free I was doing it
16:47simultaneously the best you possibly
16:49could from your situation yes
16:52yes now many years went by before
16:54anything positive happened in your case
16:56how was it that you were able to acquire
16:58new attorneys specifically Michael
17:00kimmerer and Lori volpel
17:03well
17:04the positive
17:09uh
17:10previous lawyer Mr rosenquist and I
17:14believe it was in 1994
17:16I had lost my first appeal in 1993.
17:20and there was a
17:23there was a an officer at the prison who
17:28uh gave me the name of a lawyer because
17:31he's he said you don't belong here I've
17:33been in this business for years and and
17:35you you don't belong here
17:38and he helped me get a lawyer and Mr
17:41rosenquist took my case and when I first
17:44met him I just told him I said
17:48I did not confess
17:50and and detective soldate is a liar
17:55and if he did this to me he must have
17:59done this to other people in the past
18:01and I said I don't know it's my word
18:04against his and I have to find a way to
18:07prove that he's a liar and I said please
18:10do whatever you can do a background
18:13check whatever you have to do and so
18:15then he hired some
18:18law students from ASU
18:21and they spent over 7 000 hours in the
18:25court building with the microfish
18:27looking up cases with saldate's name in
18:30it and I'll just never forget this day
18:34Mr rosenquist called me and he said are
18:37you sitting down and I said yes and he
18:40said we struck gold
18:42and he said uh we have
18:45over 18 cases well actually there were
18:48over 40 but 18 of them were homicide
18:51cases where Detective soldate
18:55uh you know lied he fabricated evidence
18:59against people he lied at Grand Jerry's
19:01the all of that and
19:03I was so relieved and at that moment I
19:06felt Vindicated
19:08and then that's when my post-conviction
19:11relief appeal started and I thought okay
19:15this is it I'm gonna win but I didn't I
19:18lost
19:19that that appeal was summarily dismissed
19:22and what year was that
19:25I believe that was in
19:271996. now is the the attorney you you
19:31mentioned here is he currently working
19:33was he currently working with the new
19:34attorneys that came on board or was the
19:36case transferred no the case was the
19:39case was eventually transferred okay but
19:42that initial work
19:44uh done by the college students with
19:47incredibly important work that was done
19:49by the previous attorney yes
19:52now that you are free have you been able
19:53to get into contact with the individuals
19:55that did that work
19:57not that law students know but I have uh
20:01had contact with Mr rosenquist yes
20:05now according to your attorney at the
20:07recent press conference
20:08as you've much of it you've just
20:10mentioned now so that I had at least 20
20:12marks on his record of misconduct
20:16it's just incredible that that was
20:18overlooked and hidden by the prosecution
20:20for so many years because a lot of those
20:22cases came through the same office so
20:24it's impossible that the prosecution did
20:27not have knowledge of his wrongdoing
20:31true
20:35covered up covered up exactly
20:39and people need to keep in mind like you
20:40said the microfiche that this
20:42information was not available on
20:44computers it took many hours of research
20:46to uncover every case of misconduct
20:49against seldate that's true yes and this
20:52was all done basically on a voluntary
20:55effort from these law students yes
20:59yes I think they spent
21:01I'm not positive but I think they spent
21:04about three months
21:06going through that even with the
21:08excellent attorneys that you acquired
21:11as I mentioned
21:13Michael Kimber and Lori volple it still
21:16took close to 12 years before
21:20you were finally released that was a
21:22long battle for them as well
21:25were you in regular contact with them
21:27throughout
21:28oh yeah I did
21:30uh the reason why it took so long is my
21:32[Music]
21:36system uh it starts at The District
21:39Court the federal district court in in
21:41Phoenix
21:43and my case sat
21:45in that courtroom for about eight years
21:49sometimes I felt like I would you know I
21:52felt like I was forgotten
21:54I felt like my case was buried under a
21:56bunch of other cases I had no I I just
21:59didn't know why I would sit and sit and
22:01sit for years on end and then finally in
22:042006
22:07I believe it was 2006 the federal judge
22:10just dismissed everything
22:13meaning he dismissed uh my appeal he
22:17just
22:19and so I lost again and that was really
22:21devastating after a long period of
22:24waiting yes was and then that losing
22:28that appeal was very devastating to me
22:31and it took me a while to get to get
22:34past that you're sitting here with all
22:36this new information on saldare you're
22:38waiting eight years for a court who's
22:40not bound by any restrictions on time
22:43to make the ruling and then they hand
22:45down a denial
22:47yes
22:48so what what proceeded from that time
22:50until
22:512013 when the ninth circuit eventually
22:55throughout your conviction
22:56well I
22:58asked my appeal at the disc
23:03to the ninth circuit and then of course
23:05you know lawyers have to prepare briefs
23:08and and they take a while and there's
23:10this back and forth you know you do the
23:12brief you wait for a response you ask
23:14for extra time it's just that kind of a
23:17process
23:18but one of the very first things in
23:20ninth circuit did was they uh they uh
23:24suggestion suggested a mediation between
23:28me and the state
23:31and I said right away
23:34uh you know I know what mediation means
23:39and I will never ever uh accept
23:43uh what's the word
23:46uh
23:47accept a plea for time served
23:52um you know I as much as I wanted to get
23:54out of prison and and see my mother and
23:58my family I was not going to plead
24:02guilty to something I didn't do he
24:03wanted vindication
24:06absolutely and so of course the state
24:09was not interested in a mediation
24:12and then we had a first oral argument
24:17at the ninth circuit and then there was
24:19a second oral argument
24:21and then after that that's when I won my
24:24appeal
24:25okay now the ninth circuit I mean they
24:28put down a scathing ruling they called
24:31your case an outrage and a Severe stain
24:34on the Arizona Justice System when you
24:36heard that ruling did you think your
24:38freedom was just a matter of time or
24:40after all the Lost appeals had you lost
24:42faith at that point
24:44okay well
24:45uh the the quote about this about the
24:48stain on the on the Arizona Justice
24:51System that came from our local court of
24:53appeals here oh okay but the the the
24:57ruling from the ninth circuit was
25:00was scathing yes in fact it was so bad
25:04that they recommended my case to go to
25:07be investigated by the justice
25:09department
25:11and uh
25:12when I read that opinion I was just in
25:15tears because I I felt like somebody
25:18finally listened to me somebody finally
25:21got the picture
25:24now the series of of
25:27Court hearings between the various
25:28courts the ninth circuit the lower
25:30district courts eventually led to
25:33release on bond in September of 2013. is
25:36that correct yes and during that time
25:38the state just from watching media
25:41reports they seemed hell-bent to pursue
25:43your case they refused to Let It Go
25:45they actually wanted seldate to testify
25:48at trial which to me is absolutely
25:50ridiculous knowing his history of
25:52misconduct were you surprised even after
25:54everything you had seen were you
25:55surprised to see the state going to such
25:57lengths
26:00you know
26:02part of me was surprised but Another
26:04Part Of Me wasn't because
26:07the way these people operate here
26:10you know they kept claiming oh this is
26:13Justice for Christopher but
26:15I think it was the they're they're
26:18like a bunch of smoke and mirrors you
26:21know it wasn't about Justice it's it's
26:23they're politics plays a big role in in
26:27the in the judicial system and and
26:30these people are just driven by their
26:32own
26:33uh
26:34personal politics
26:37we've seen many times even when you know
26:39prosecutors come and go there's a a
26:41sense of circling the wagons to protect
26:43the office at all costs and once they
26:46obtain a conviction they'll do
26:47everything in their power to to preserve
26:49it no matter what new evidence comes
26:51into play in the future
26:53and to me that's incredibly disturbing
26:55it is it's scary you
27:01know equally the state's efforts were
27:02stopped by the courts eventually and
27:04your case came to a close but once again
27:06we watched the system move very slowly
27:09in December of 2014 murder charges
27:12against you were ordered dismissed they
27:14ruled that a retrial would result in
27:16unconstitutional Double Jeopardy but
27:18even after that ruling you continue to
27:20wait for the system to run its course
27:21the Supreme Court had declined to review
27:23the case in March 17th of this year
27:26finally leading to dismissal on March
27:2823rd did these days all seem incredibly
27:32long to you as the process wound down to
27:34a close well yes but when I was released
27:38in September of 2013 I had an ankle
27:41bracelet on and most people might see
27:45that as confinement that to me my ankle
27:48bracelet represented freedom because I
27:52was able to get out and be with my
27:53mother
27:54um and yes it was you know all this uh
27:59dragging out I was so used to it so
28:02didn't even phase me and especially
28:05since I was free so I didn't I really
28:07didn't mind
28:09I mean
28:10it didn't it didn't bother me as much
28:13because I was free waiting when hearing
28:15your story of waiting eight years for a
28:18decision maybe the decisions fit and
28:20seem all that long in comparison to what
28:22you'd already gone through it's true
28:24now when you were released you walked
28:26out to a completely different world than
28:28the one you were taken from over two
28:29decades ago can you recall the feelings
28:31you had the moment you officially were
28:33outside of those Prison Walls
28:36yes
28:37yes picked me up
28:42I [ __ ] out of the jail the very first
28:45thing I saw was these little cameras
28:48that they were holding and they were
28:49taking video and then I got into my
28:52lawyer's car and
28:56it it had a screen on it where you can
29:00back up and see what's behind you I mean
29:02and then he was talking on the
29:05the Bluetooth which at the time I didn't
29:07know what that was
29:09and uh then when we pulled out of the
29:13out of the out of the jail facility
29:16everything was so huge to me I mean I
29:21the sky was the sky was so big and the
29:25buildings and everything and and the
29:27traffic it was all
29:30yeah it was very um different
29:34now you mentioned the technology in the
29:36car just immediately what you were
29:37seeing were you able to keep up with
29:39with technology somewhat by Reading
29:42literature and watching television in
29:43prison or was it really seeing it
29:45Hands-On for the first time was that
29:47overwhelming
29:49was able to keep
29:56up I didn't really understand it
29:59but when I got out I was I I needed to
30:03show me how it works and then then I got
30:05it so it came pretty quickly to you
30:08it did I mean here you are today talking
30:11on Skype
30:14the greatest
30:20don't know everything there is to know
30:23but um I just take it at my own pace
30:26because if I try to learn everything at
30:28once I'd become overwhelmed sure now you
30:31mentioned that that ankle bracelet to
30:33you did signify a sign of freedom
30:36were you really able to have a complete
30:38sense of Freedom before the final
30:40decision came down this March are you
30:42just now feeling like you can begin to
30:44build a new life
30:46um no now I can begin to build a new
30:49life but back when I have the ankle
30:51bracelet on it it it did represent
30:54freedom in a sense because I got to be
30:56with my mother spend time with my mother
30:58but um
31:01at first I was only restricted to the
31:03county but if I wanted to travel
31:05somewhere I would have to ask for
31:07permission
31:08and um then after that the restrictions
31:12were lifted to where I could leave I
31:15could travel anywhere within the State
31:17of Arizona and then I did not have a
31:19curfew now your case as you know and as
31:22anybody that's followed your case knows
31:24really highlights the need for reform
31:26interrogations must be recorded and
31:29prosecutors should be held accountable
31:30for their actions when it comes to your
31:33interrogation you're questioning by
31:35seldate knowing what you know today what
31:38advice can you give to others that may
31:40face similar circumstances how can
31:42people possibly protect themselves from
31:43a bad cop like saldare well
31:46recording interrogate especially in
31:49today's day and age is a no-brainer and
31:53it not only protects the person that's
31:55being accused of of something but it
31:58also protects the police
32:01because it if it's recorded there's this
32:04transparency
32:06um
32:08it's
32:09yeah I don't know how to what to tell
32:11people how to protect themselves from a
32:13bad cop I mean it's always easy to say
32:17don't say anything but when you're being
32:20accused of something you didn't do
32:23uh you know
32:26you're you have this natural reaction
32:28right
32:32um emotionally reacting in your case was
32:34unique as well because of these
32:36circumstances you had just lost your son
32:38so it wasn't that you were being accused
32:41of robbing a grocery store you were
32:43grieving at the same time you were being
32:46accused
32:48yes but yes that's true it was it was a
32:53it was a devastating
32:55shock
32:57it it just it was it was shocking to the
33:00core I I just really it
33:02do you feel that that that situation
33:05gave more power to saldante during the
33:08questioning
33:13absolutely what we've seen from his
33:16history that he's a pro at acquiring bad
33:19information from interrogations and
33:21several cases have been dismissed due to
33:23his misconduct so there's no surprise
33:25there the prosecutorial misconduct to me
33:28in your case is beyond disturbing
33:30if the information regarding sodate was
33:33available at your trial he would have
33:35been immediately discredited
33:37legislation must be created to hold
33:39prosecutors accountable in every state
33:41in this country there are just no
33:43excuses for protecting corrupt
33:45prosecutors this leads me to a question
33:47that I'm really not sure there's an
33:48answer for I've asked other exoneries
33:50the same thing exonerations are becoming
33:53irregular occurrence these days time and
33:55time again we see exoneries walk out of
33:57courtrooms calm and collected what
34:00transformation takes place in the lives
34:02of exonerees like yourself to help
34:04control anger towards those that have
34:06taken so much from you well I can't
34:09speak for other people but for me
34:11personally anger is a very heavy
34:13negative emotion
34:15and
34:17um
34:18I you know I don't I don't know I mean
34:21don't get me wrong I I I I was very
34:24angry and I had to fight figure out ways
34:26to deal with it
34:27and I'm still I still feel anger and I
34:31still find ways to deal with it but I
34:32don't let it consume me because
34:35uh it's I mean
34:38so many years of my life were stolen
34:41I can't get that back I can't get my son
34:43back
34:44it's not going to change anything and so
34:48I just um
34:50try I just look forward and not let
34:52anger consume me otherwise it would just
34:55destroy me it's an amazing thing to
34:57witness for people on the outside and
34:59I'm not sure like I said I think each
35:01individual person has to deal with it in
35:03their own way but I very rarely ever see
35:06anyone exonerated after losing many
35:08years of their lives come out screaming
35:10and yelling so to me it's just one of
35:12those things that it's an amazing Act of
35:15self-control to be able to push forward
35:17with your life and I think it takes an
35:19incredible amount of strength
35:21it it's true now during your long ordeal
35:24you've had Advocates fighting for your
35:26freedom all around the world reports
35:28have said that a home was provided for
35:29you and supporters have also they also
35:32posted your bond have you been surprised
35:33by the outpouring of support you've had
35:35oh yes
35:37it's it's
35:39I mean I I I received support from
35:42people that I don't even know I wish I
35:46could thank each and every person but
35:48it's just not possible yes it was very
35:50overwhelming very heartwarming amazing
35:53to me that somebody would take the time
35:55out of their own life just to send
36:00you know supportive words
36:03I mean that that was very touching to me
36:05and it still is now the birth of social
36:07media has provided an excellent resource
36:10to help spread information this entire
36:12process came about after you went into
36:14prison I'll be speaking to a man named
36:16Frankie in the final segment of the show
36:18he has truly been the driving force
36:20behind the advocacy efforts for your
36:22case that we've seen online while you
36:24were in prison were you made aware of
36:26the wide-ranging support you had online
36:28yes through Frankie okay so you were in
36:32tune with what was going on because that
36:34is something that you obviously had
36:35absolutely no contact with yes and
36:38sometimes um Frankie would send me uh
36:41you know uh copies of of
36:45emails or postings and
36:49it it was so uh
36:53deeply touching to me and then there
36:55were times when I just it was so
36:57overwhelming I I couldn't I couldn't
37:00read it all
37:03yeah the the support has
37:06meant a great deal to me and I'm
37:07extremely grateful for that I'm thankful
37:10that Frankie was able to provide you
37:12with that information maybe just to give
37:14you a little bit of support while you
37:16were waiting in prison
37:19at your recent press conference your
37:21attorney Roy vopal mentioned the media
37:23storm that has surrounded your case
37:25do you feel that the media played a role
37:27in your conviction
37:29oh yes
37:31yes
37:32because instead of reporting
37:35uh you know I don't know
37:38um like journalists a real journalist
37:42should it it almost
37:45seemed like it was so Sensational and it
37:47was it it was at the level of the what I
37:51call the rag sheets
37:53and so yes they just they contributed to
37:56that now other than a couple of opinion
37:58pieces in recent months I have seen
38:00mostly positive coverage have you been
38:02treated well by the media now that you
38:04are free ah well I I only had my press
38:08conference and after that I no one has
38:10bothered me so that's a positive sign
38:12unfortunately the media we see time and
38:15time again in these cases initially they
38:18don't care much about the truth I hate
38:19to be so critical but it's just the way
38:21it is they since they sensationalize
38:24every case and they often forget that
38:27there's a human being behind each and
38:28every case the only way that any
38:31anything like this would change is if it
38:34happened to them right and unfortunately
38:37it would only change for that one
38:38journalist because all the other
38:40journalists would just jump against him
38:42and that's the that's the climate that
38:45they're in currently and I don't know if
38:47there's really any way to change that no
38:49I
38:56continue to see negative comments in the
38:58comment sections on articles online
39:00unfortunately wrongful convictions cause
39:02irreparable damage I say that all the
39:05time some will never see the truth in
39:07your case you are free now and you're
39:09certainly not obligated to continue
39:11defending yourself have you had to deal
39:13with anyone that continues to think you
39:15are guilty or have you been able to
39:17steer clear of all that well I don't
39:18don't read that stuff online first of
39:21all this is what I have to say to
39:23anybody who who wants to be negative or
39:26mean-spirited
39:29you did not walk in my shoes you did not
39:32fight my fight everybody's entitled to
39:34an opinion and you can have your opinion
39:36I don't care but I fought my fight and I
39:40won
39:41and there's a problem within our justice
39:44system and
39:46fortunately you the the negative person
39:50out there you haven't been affected by
39:52it yet and hopefully you never will be
39:54you also mentioned that your press
39:56conference that this could happen to
39:57anyone and like you just said hopefully
39:59it won't happen to them the truth is it
40:02really can happen to anybody there is
40:04nobody that that is completely safe from
40:07being wrongfully convicted in this
40:09country
40:09that's true
40:13you know my in my life I've never been
40:16in trouble with the law
40:18um I worked full-time I paid my taxes I
40:21I mean I I never thought I would ever
40:24see the inside of a jail
40:26but I did
40:28and it really truly can't happen to
40:30anybody do you feel that there's still a
40:32mystery surrounding Christopher's death
40:34or do you now think the correct people
40:35are in prison for the crime uh I believe
40:38that uh the correct people are in prison
40:41for his murder
40:43thanks to Frankie I
40:46I think I pretty much know what happened
40:48do you have any hope that the two will
40:50ever give an accurate accounting of the
40:51events I I used to
40:54have that but I've already I've come to
40:57accept
40:58that that will that won't happen at your
41:01recent press conference your attorney
41:02Michael kimmerer gave credit to the
41:04courts for correcting this error and for
41:06everything you've gone through and seen
41:08do you have faith in the U.S justice
41:10system well if the police would uh do
41:13what they're supposed to do and if the
41:15prosecutors would not abuse their power
41:17then yes but as long as prosecutors
41:20continue to abuse their power
41:23I don't have any faith in it there is
41:26Need for for much reform throughout
41:27every state in the country
41:29yes and hopefully cases like yours will
41:31shine light on that and we will see some
41:33improvements well it's one thing if it
41:35was an isolated incident
41:41clearly something's wrong you are the
41:43second woman to be exonerated from Death
41:45Row in the United States the first
41:47female exoneree was Sabrina Porter in
41:49the 90s she was a guest on our radio
41:51show last year Sabrina spent 33 months
41:55on death row in Mississippi convicted of
41:57murder of her nine-month-old son her son
41:59had actually died of a rare kidney
42:01disease it was a very sad case Sabrina
42:04was 100 innocent just as you are with
42:07all that you have gone through do you
42:09believe the death penalty should be
42:10abolished in this country yes it should
42:12be because it's I mean look at all the
42:15mistakes
42:18say there are mistakes like I think
42:20they're deliberate mistakes
42:22yeah it doesn't make any sense to have
42:25it was there was there any point in time
42:27before your conviction that you believed
42:29in the death penalty I didn't really
42:32have an opinion about it back then
42:33because like I said I was I was so young
42:36I
42:37I I
42:38I didn't have any dealings with the
42:40police I didn't I I didn't live a
42:43criminal life so I the system was just
42:46something way out there so I didn't
42:48really have an opinion I mean now that
42:50I've done extensive research on the
42:52topic I stand with you I see no reason
42:54why we should continue to have the death
42:56penalty there's been far too many cases
42:58like yours where people have been
43:00exonerated from death row that alone is
43:03enough for me to abolish it nationwide
43:05right
43:07and anybody who's a victim of a crime it
43:10really doesn't I understand the anger of
43:12people you know sentencing to Death kill
43:14them kill them I get that but it really
43:17doesn't change anything it's not it's
43:19not going to bring my son back so you
43:21would rather see the two men that that
43:23committed this horrible crime spending
43:25life in prison without the possibility
43:27of parole is a suitable punishment for
43:29the crime
43:31it is because one way or the other
43:33they're gonna die anyway after you were
43:35you were released in 2013 you've
43:38mentioned your mom a few times in the
43:39show here tonight you were able to spend
43:41a short time with her before she passed
43:44away I saw beautiful pictures and news
43:47reports of you reuniting with your mom
43:48can you tell us a little bit about your
43:50mom and your relationship with her
43:52well yes
43:54um my mother was a very strong strong
43:57person which I'm pretty sure that's
44:00where I got it from I was very close to
44:03my mother-in-law
44:04and my ex-husband sent me a note telling
44:06me that his mother died
44:08and um it just devastated me and I
44:12didn't know you know I didn't have any
44:16contact with my mom at that time and I
44:18just sent her a letter
44:19and I just said you know you can
44:22take this for whatever you want but I
44:24want you to know that I'm not guilty of
44:27this crime
44:28and I don't want you to to you know die
44:32thinking that your daughter was guilty
44:34of this and that's how I started my
44:36communication with my mother and then
44:38since then she's she's been you know
44:41fighting for me for my freedom
44:44and then in 2010 she was diagnosed with
44:47ovarian cancer and I and I mean the the
44:51uh
44:53that that's a very serious cancer so I
44:57was so desperate inside to win my case
45:00so I could get out and see see her or
45:03for her to live long enough to see me
45:04set free
45:07and and and thankfully that happened she
45:11lived in Germany correct she lived in
45:13Switzerland yes oh Switzerland yeah and
45:16yes she did so she was able to come to
45:19the states to visit yeah
45:21and then of course Skype was available
45:24to you so you could keep in
45:25communication yes and we Skyped every
45:28day
45:30well that's good to hear the technology
45:32helped you greatly yes that's why I say
45:35skype's the best attention have you been
45:38able to reconcile with family members
45:40that doubted your innocence now that you
45:41are free
45:43uh no
45:45um my past is the past
45:47so I just have my my my
45:51um relatives that live in in Germany
45:54and I just look forward you keep moving
45:57forward that's the only route you can
45:58take right
46:00now your greatest loss has been the loss
46:03of your son Christopher
46:04what memories of Christopher do you
46:06cherish the most all of them
46:09all of them I think about them every day
46:12I have you know I look at photos of them
46:16um
46:17sometimes you know I look around at
46:19people that would be his age or that you
46:23know 30 years old and and I just kind of
46:26stop and
46:28look at these people that I think are
46:30about 30 and I just wonder what
46:33Christopher would have been like
46:35and yeah so I every single memory I have
46:39of him I cherish
46:41do you have any immediate plans for the
46:43future or do you continue just to take
46:45it one day at a time
46:46I just take it one day at a time
46:49[Music]
46:52I read in an article that you had
46:54thought about moving back home to
46:56Germany is that still a possibility or
46:58are you going to remain here in the
46:59United States I'm not sure yet I really
47:02don't know I
47:05I'm just I'm just like I said taking one
47:07day at a time it's I I would just say
47:10it's a possibility on a final note and I
47:13know you cannot speak about it but your
47:15attorneys have filed a civil lawsuit
47:16against the City of Phoenix it's a
47:18police department including individual
47:20detectives the Maricopa County and
47:22County State's Attorney's office I want
47:24to say on behalf of all of us here at
47:26Injustice anywhere we wish you the best
47:27on that people must be held accountable
47:29for their actions yes thank you very
47:32much I want to thank you for joining us
47:34tonight it's been great talking to you
47:35you've had an incredible amount of
47:37support from our group online and I want
47:40you to know that we wish you all the
47:41best and I hope you find many years of
47:44happiness in your life as you move
47:45forward thank you so much
47:48take care Deborah thank you for joining
47:49us tonight okay I would like to
47:52introduce our second guest tonight hi
47:55Frankie welcome to the Injustice
47:56anywhere radio program hello Bruce
47:59how are you tonight
48:01I'm great you know now that everything's
48:03resolved as far as Deborah's case
48:05everybody's relief everybody's happy
48:07now you are joining us from Germany
48:09correct that's correct Berlin
48:13now as I mentioned in the preview you
48:15were the driving force behind the
48:17advocacy effort seen online for Deborah
48:19milky how did you get involved with this
48:21case
48:22well there was a huge article about
48:24Deborah's case back in May 1998 and the
48:27probably biggest magazine we have over
48:29here in Europe called the Spiegel the
48:31mirror and that was that that article
48:34raised a lot of questions and what
48:36touched me obviously was the fact that
48:38the mother of Deborah Renata younger was
48:41a berlin-born woman who happened to
48:43marry an American GI back in the early
48:4660s
48:47so I could kind of picture you know
48:49having been growing up in this city you
48:51know how a woman in that in that time
48:54you know you know raises a family an
48:57American German family moves over to the
48:59United States and then such a tragedy
49:01comes out of it so that that was very
49:03touching to me in a way so the
49:05connection between Germany and the
49:07United States was a factor oh yeah
49:09definitely now were you fluent in both
49:12languages before taking on this case
49:14well not really fluent but I mean there
49:17was a lot I learned in the meantime
49:18especially as far as the legal terms but
49:20English per se was something that was
49:22always very close to my heart let's put
49:24it that way okay was this the first time
49:26that you had taken on an advocacy effort
49:29uh no well yes in in in in in in in
49:32English or practically you know I did
49:34have I did have legal issues in German
49:37with my own company and this and that
49:38but never in the criminal department
49:40okay this was the first person Deborah
49:43was the first person that you've you had
49:45advocated for right right as far as
49:48really saying this woman is innocent and
49:50a lot went horribly wrong here
49:53because these cases are intriguing to me
49:55and that I receive questions all the
49:57time asking me how I got involved and it
50:01is an interesting scenario for a person
50:03to take on a case and start advocating
50:06like you did for a complete stranger
50:08what was it that initially stood out
50:11early on that made you realize Deborah
50:13was indeed an innocent woman well I have
50:16to say I kind of grew into this case
50:18firstly I got acquainted with Governor's
50:20mother Renata I offered her to take over
50:22the website because there was a previous
50:24woman who helped doing that and these
50:27efforts were terminated at the time so I
50:29offered to take over the website and and
50:31create a website about this case Okay so
50:34there was a website in play before you
50:36became involved yeah well the website
50:38was initially create a more or less
50:40registered by Renata younger which is
50:42debbiemielke.com
50:44okay there was no content at the time
50:47you know so we kind of tried to to make
50:49it a readable thing for like a
50:51representation of the case and then
50:53Debbie and I started corresponding
50:54intensely in 2000
50:57and well then she asked me well why
50:59don't you want to come over which I did
51:01in October 2000 and from that point on I
51:04started reading and researching a lot
51:06myself which kind of ducked me into even
51:08more into this case
51:10this one in October of 2000 did you come
51:13to visit the United States or you
51:14officially moved here no no I I visited
51:17Deborah in prison
51:19and on that occasion I got to read
51:21original documents from the previous
51:23legal representation and you know more
51:26more
51:27official documents about the case and
51:29that's when I started noticing that
51:31there were huge discrepancies okay do
51:33you have any legal background or is this
51:35all just looking at it in layman's terms
51:38it's just logic it's just merely logic
51:41something I say all the time it's just
51:43common sense in many of these cases it
51:45doesn't take a lot agree to see that
51:47something horrible has taken place well
51:49you have to find sometimes you have to
51:51find where it is but let me give you a
51:52brief example what I was just saying
51:54pertain to the police report but we do
51:57know that in Deborah's case we have a
51:59crucial cop a guy named Armando saldote
52:02and I didn't know his police report
52:04about his conversation that he had with
52:06Deborah's sister Sandy pick and Paul
52:09now when I came to the states in
52:12connection with Deborah's case for the
52:14very first time I had the chance to read
52:16the original verbatim transcript of a
52:19tape that was recorded with this
52:21interview with this uh conversation they
52:23had and I noticed instantly that there
52:26were huge discrepancies in other words
52:27whatever Salgado later and in his police
52:30report did not match the transcript now
52:33did your work on the case was it able to
52:35be used by the defense in Debbie's
52:37Appeals well my as far as researching
52:40and digging through through the file you
52:42know that continued in 2001 and I made a
52:45lot of that stuff available to the
52:47attorneys much of which they used
52:49eventually and legal breeds okay so the
52:52advocacy initially Ever Needed support
52:53in the public but also the advocacy
52:56efforts do sometimes lead to actually
52:59helping the the case on appeal
53:01absolutely
53:03now the website that you had available
53:06online was a treasure Trove of
53:08information for this case was that
53:10something that that was built over time
53:12or were you able to did you just dive in
53:14and and put that online early on or was
53:16it really something you had to
53:17investigate for years and years to
53:19uncover all that information well even
53:21though it's so intriguingly big and huge
53:24you know it didn't take that long I
53:26especially in 2001 there was a situation
53:28when the file was turned over from the
53:31previous legal representation to our new
53:33attorneys and we had to find that the
53:35father was excuse me but I have to say
53:37there was a mess and I I wonder how a
53:41death penalty case can actually be
53:43handled when the file is in such a
53:45condition that's that's my personal
53:46opinion it's incredible to see sometimes
53:49isn't it it's incredible and I'll tell
53:50you what I heard about more cases where
53:52the same thing happens all the time that
53:54you know sometimes the attorneys don't
53:55see the first for the trees now files
53:57are available online in Most states
53:59currently today in 2015 was that at the
54:03case in 2000 no no no when the thing is
54:06what is available usually are just the
54:08the file briefs but here in this case we
54:11had more we had like investigative
54:13material we had hospital records we had
54:16you know all that stuff and this was all
54:18on paper right so I looked at our
54:20attorneys you know and said well let's
54:21face it on the cheapest where you can
54:23get at this point and started thinking
54:25Page by Page and that gave me the
54:27incredible chance of copying whatever I
54:30felt was necessary to to dig deeper or
54:33read closer and this is when basically
54:36you know a Renata younger Deborah's
54:37mother learned for me all the stuff that
54:40I that I found because the previous
54:43legal representation only told her you
54:45are not my client it's your daughter
54:46who's my client you know now Deborah's
54:50mother mentioned early on that her
54:51confession had taken her back and she
54:54was confused early on was it your work
54:56that helped her mom see the truth about
54:58this case uh no I think well since I do
55:01know a lot how Ronaldo families worked I
55:04would like to explain it like this
55:05absolutely after Renata learned that
55:09Christopher was shot was murdered she
55:11instantly flew over over to Arizona
55:13and then she stayed with the family of
55:16her ex-husband and obviously that was a
55:1910 10th situation and they all told her
55:22well your daughter confessed and
55:24everywhere in the media on in in in in
55:26the newspapers on on TV everywhere
55:28everybody said well Deborah milky that's
55:31the monster
55:32so what are you gonna do as a relatively
55:35well a person who has never had any
55:38dealings with a criminal justice system
55:39and this and that and and Renata was
55:42scared so after one week she flew back
55:44she did not have a chance to to see
55:46Deborah in prison they told her Debbie
55:48didn't want to see her they never told
55:51every that that her mother was there to
55:53see her so they played them out against
55:56each other just a horribly sad situation
55:59for all involved situation the the the
56:01public defender never returned Renata's
56:04calls so after one week heartbroken she
56:07flew back to Europe you know thinking
56:10that you know the United States justice
56:12system would take care of itself and
56:13Justice would Prevail but at this time
56:15she was led to believe that her daughter
56:17had truly given a confession as far as I
56:20know it was a in 2000 no excuse me in
56:251993 letter from Deborah to her
56:29grandparents
56:30that finally clarified that the supposed
56:33confession was not a confession or was
56:35it totally uncorroborated that there was
56:37no signature no tape recording no
56:39weakness nothing and the Deborah
56:40steadfesky said I never made a
56:42confession and I never had anything to
56:44do with this so it was her own words
56:46that convinced her mom that she was
56:48innocent
56:49yeah at that time so this was four years
56:51before I got to know renatianka and the
56:55the reason why Renata even took
56:58undertook more efforts now was the uh
57:02warrant of execution in December 1997.
57:04that obviously caused you know her to
57:07reconsider just sitting in Switzerland
57:09and waiting for justice to Prevail
57:11because she started to realize Justice
57:13doesn't come on its own you have to do
57:15something about it right now was the
57:18support strong in both countries when it
57:20came to the visitors you were seeing on
57:21the website
57:23uh no I would always say that over here
57:26you never had to convince anybody you
57:28just have to say well it's a confession
57:29that's not signed and everybody will
57:31tell you ah okay I know now what what
57:33struck us out and it was difficult to
57:36deal with is as Europeans that Americans
57:39very often have a much stronger tendency
57:42to believe in authorities
57:44which is certainly in this case it was
57:45that he said she said but she was up
57:48against a police officer yeah well the
57:50first thing is what is totally Beyond me
57:51is how can a judge possibly accept an
57:54uncorroborated confession that police
57:56report is the only piece of evidence now
57:59do you feel that the the opinions in
58:01Germany were based on the death penalty
58:04as well or do you think it was strictly
58:06on the actual evidence
58:08um I will tell you firstly of course
58:09some people who don't really bother
58:11about the details of the case they will
58:12certainly condemn the death penalty but
58:14more people through through the the
58:17German Pages we had on debbiemilkeep.com
58:19as well uh learn how the case actually
58:22went there were TV appearances over
58:25anata of me in in German TV shows and
58:28talk shows to explain how the case
58:30actually went and and like I said you
58:33just have to mention to Europeans there
58:34is it's an uncorroborated concession
58:37sure and and that's pretty much it and
58:39that's all you need for people to
58:40realize or something goes wrong here in
58:43recent years in the United States the
58:45support for Deborah has been strong you
58:47put a series of videos on YouTube that I
58:49thought were incredibly effective how
58:52did that whole idea come about what made
58:54you decide to do the YouTube videos
58:56quite frankly I was always looking for
58:58an American to do them because I never
59:01even though I do know that people
59:02understand me I was I would have
59:04preferred you know an American Native
59:06American to
59:08to be the host to the to these videos I
59:10never found anybody who wanted to do it
59:12and so I suggested to Debbie well would
59:16you mind if I do them alone so I don't
59:18think that she's seen all them I know
59:19that she's seen one of them in total we
59:22have
59:22six episodes that uh you know slice the
59:26entire case up in different parts so
59:28people can understand bit by bit you
59:30know how all this went
59:32um well if it if it helped people to
59:34understand what this case was about then
59:36I'll be more than that now are those
59:37videos still available online today
59:40I took them off right now because in the
59:43Civil proceedings the attorneys were
59:44asking to remove literally everything
59:47um I could make them available I believe
59:49they're still streaming from your
59:51website from Injustice anywhere okay
59:53they're not those actual videos aren't
59:55there now that's why I asked the
59:57question and I did think that it was
59:59possible that the civil suit had was
1:00:01playing some bearing on that yeah yeah
1:00:03that that's the reason I basically took
1:00:05everything off and in fact I will let
1:00:07Deborah milky or Debbie milky.com run
1:00:09out now since there was no need for that
1:00:11anymore right she's a free woman there's
1:00:13no need to defend herself now it's time
1:00:15for others to be held accountable for
1:00:17what was done to her yeah now do you
1:00:20advocate for any other cases does this
1:00:22led you to take an interest in other
1:00:24wrongful convictions
1:00:26well the thing is what I always said to
1:00:28our friend Luca is that I'm not an
1:00:30activist an activist I would describe as
1:00:32somebody who takes care of more cases
1:00:35but probably not as much of the details
1:00:38this was just one case that really
1:00:41caught your attention I thought to
1:00:43myself that was my personal attitude I'm
1:00:46taking care of one case and that is
1:00:47where I'm going to be most effective
1:00:49well I think you were pretty darn
1:00:50effective especially for the supporters
1:00:52of the United States I mean you provided
1:00:55extensive information I would like to
1:00:58say one one thing that you probably
1:01:00heard about the case there's another
1:01:01Highly Questionable case of a German
1:01:03citizen that is a guy named yenzui and
1:01:07the end is incarcerated but he does not
1:01:09have the death penalty it has twice life
1:01:12and he was convicted based on a
1:01:14confession which he gave in order to
1:01:16protect his then girlfriend who had
1:01:19murdered her parents and he's
1:01:21incarcerated in South Virginia
1:01:24so he's a native German that's in South
1:01:27Virginia
1:01:28he is incarcerated in South Virginia now
1:01:30right he was always thinking back then
1:01:32that is the son of a diplomat he would
1:01:36enjoy diplomatic immunity while he was
1:01:39wrong on that one
1:01:40so that's a case that we should take a
1:01:42look at well that is the case that I
1:01:44find highly interesting and yet again
1:01:46one of those things that well even
1:01:48though there is a confession in in play
1:01:50does not mean that the confession is
1:01:53truthful in this case the guy truly gave
1:01:55the confession and he always admitted to
1:01:57that
1:01:58now are you still I I imagine you're
1:02:01still in regular contact with Deborah do
1:02:03you have plans to visit the states
1:02:04anytime in the future well the other way
1:02:07around she would come to Europe
1:02:09so she's going to come visit you in
1:02:10Germany she's come she's going to come
1:02:12visit she has family here uh that she's
1:02:15going to see she wants to be at the
1:02:16grave of her mother uh you know these
1:02:19kind of things which I think is great
1:02:20because I think she needs going getting
1:02:22away from the states for some time and
1:02:24that she will have a completely
1:02:26different approach when she returns home
1:02:27I'm sure you've built a lifelong
1:02:30friendship with her now and that's
1:02:32something that something positive that
1:02:33has come out of this she has built
1:02:35friends and hopefully they will be able
1:02:38to help her to move on and build a new
1:02:39life
1:02:40well she made many friends over the over
1:02:42the over the years that and it's
1:02:45incredible for her now to to basically
1:02:47get to see these people in person you
1:02:49know so I think I think that'll that'll
1:02:51be great when she arrives here in
1:02:53Germany and sees all those people that
1:02:54she's been in touch with and
1:02:55communicating with for so many years
1:02:57Bruce I would like to I would like to
1:02:59add something at this point something I
1:03:01would like to say to people who are
1:03:02concerned sure
1:03:04um You probably you're probably aware
1:03:06that there are some people out there who
1:03:08all feel that they have a say about
1:03:09Deborah's case we all feel that they
1:03:12should publish something right sure I
1:03:14mean that's that's now the people at
1:03:16John uh yeah what I would just like to
1:03:19say that please consider I mean not as
1:03:21far as Deborah's case that turned out
1:03:23good but please consider that the more
1:03:25people do that
1:03:27you know the more you take the attention
1:03:29the focused attention away from the
1:03:31public
1:03:32you know when you have like five or ten
1:03:34different sources of information
1:03:35everybody tells you something else
1:03:37you're not helping the person in
1:03:39question at all and in what ways do you
1:03:41mean
1:03:42well I'm just meaning that as far as
1:03:45Deborah for instance I do know or I am
1:03:47aware was aware that they were five or
1:03:49six different Facebook pages open there
1:03:51are a couple of different websites open
1:03:54I'm just saying that without the person
1:03:57in question without the defense Camp of
1:03:59the person in question these kind of
1:04:02efforts you know even though they're
1:04:03maybe meant well could very easily
1:04:06backfire especially of different
1:04:07opinions and different interpretations
1:04:10and this and that are published you know
1:04:12so the broad public might not might be
1:04:14confused about what what source really
1:04:17to believe too many various opinions we
1:04:19saw that with the Amanda Knox case there
1:04:20was literally hundreds of Facebook pages
1:04:23right and it does cause confusion
1:04:26to say it
1:04:27say it that even though these people
1:04:29think they help they may not necessarily
1:04:30help so the key here is for anybody that
1:04:33wants to support a case they should
1:04:35support the website that is approved by
1:04:37and supported by the defendant
1:04:39themselves the attorneys the defense
1:04:41attorneys
1:04:42often the attorneys we've seen they they
1:04:45don't always embrace the public support
1:04:46but then in the end they kind of change
1:04:49their tune I think there's
1:04:51I think there's still a waiting period
1:04:53here to see how social media plays out
1:04:55when it comes to wrongful convictions
1:04:56because we're seeing exonerations almost
1:04:59on a weekly basis now throughout our
1:05:01country correct and this was never the
1:05:03case before information was readily
1:05:05available to the public so there are
1:05:07vast benefits as well but I do think
1:05:10that you're right I do think the focus
1:05:12needs to be in the right place I'm I'm
1:05:14just I'm not saying that the social you
1:05:16know getting the information else on
1:05:18social media is wrong I'm just saying it
1:05:20should be well considered and it should
1:05:23all come from the same corner you know
1:05:24if there are too many voices speaking in
1:05:27the end you don't get the sentence
1:05:29absolutely and I I do think we saw that
1:05:32we talked about it many many times with
1:05:34the Knox case as you come on Facebook
1:05:36you'd put her name in and it would pull
1:05:38up 30 pages you know who's telling the
1:05:40truth
1:05:41for me the website helped comparing
1:05:45documents with each other you could see
1:05:47this document claim this that document
1:05:49Glenn that and you could show the people
1:05:51what the discrepancies are as you know
1:05:53in Deborah's case there is the the
1:05:56prosecution drew a timeline
1:05:58and that timeline is in contrast with
1:06:01police records therefore the the
1:06:04scenario of the prosecution is wrong
1:06:06that's that's easy now I did mention to
1:06:08Deborah in closing here I'd like to get
1:06:10your opinion on it I asked her if she
1:06:12felt that the right people were
1:06:13currently in prison and she told me that
1:06:15after looking through your research she
1:06:19now does believe that the right people
1:06:21are in prison but there is still a bit
1:06:23of a mystery there
1:06:25what is your opinion on what actually
1:06:27happened to Christopher that day well I
1:06:30was always very vocal because I believe
1:06:31I would help Debbie the best if we come
1:06:34up with a story what really happened
1:06:35what we do know is if you go through the
1:06:38records is that police first had a guy
1:06:41who had an IQ of 76 I believe is an
1:06:45alcohol abuser
1:06:47and who had a gun because the gun that
1:06:49killed the little boy was later found in
1:06:51his apartment and this man is Roger
1:06:52Scott now Roger Scott was a high school
1:06:54buddy of Jim Styers and Styers was the
1:06:57man who leased out a room to Deborah so
1:07:00she could stay there with Christopher I
1:07:03believe that Jim styrus was terribly
1:07:06foolish in obtaining two guns
1:07:08that Deborah had no idea of
1:07:11uh and taking one of the guns over to
1:07:13rudge's place on that morning on that
1:07:16fateful Saturday morning and Christopher
1:07:17with with him so I what I believe
1:07:20happened is that Christopher was shot in
1:07:22connection with the fact that Scott and
1:07:25Styers tried out the new gun in the
1:07:27desert and as far as Jim's Tire is
1:07:29related at his own trial all three went
1:07:31back to the car in front Jim behind him
1:07:34Christopher and at the end of that line
1:07:36Roger Scott and Scott had the gun in his
1:07:39hands so that's how you feel that it
1:07:40went down yeah that's what that's what
1:07:43all the evidence says and I didn't get
1:07:45into the details of Deborah because I
1:07:47don't feel that she has any need to
1:07:49continue defending herself at this point
1:07:51she is free and she has every right to
1:07:53move on with their life but a few
1:07:55questions that remain online I have no
1:07:58problems discussing with you we're on
1:07:59the outside looking in the ones that you
1:08:02hear over and over again on those that
1:08:04continue to be negative it starts with
1:08:07the fact that in the beginning Deborah
1:08:09was writing letters
1:08:10to Stires in prison at that time when
1:08:13she just confused about who actually
1:08:15committed the crime well look people are
1:08:18confused because they are pre uh they
1:08:20they they they think they ever had
1:08:22anything to do with it for Deborah I'm
1:08:24not knowing what had happened it only
1:08:26makes sense to try to coax information
1:08:29out of gym stars to try to find out what
1:08:31happened and in fact she did share that
1:08:33knowledge with her defense team and they
1:08:35encouraged her to continue writing with
1:08:38him okay so her letters were more or
1:08:40less just an attempt to gather
1:08:42information the letters were on the
1:08:44website there were never a secret oh no
1:08:47no they're absolutely not a secret but
1:08:49they're they're continued they continue
1:08:51to come up in conversations with people
1:08:53that are will forever be latched on to
1:08:55this case because that's what happens in
1:08:57cases like this you have a a small group
1:09:00of people that will never ever give it
1:09:02up and I I call that irreparable damage
1:09:05it just cannot be corrected Bruce let me
1:09:07tell you something else as a response to
1:09:09this if the system was in any way
1:09:12perfect
1:09:13the other two cases would automatically
1:09:15be reopened and the fact that the system
1:09:18does not do that shows the cover-up this
1:09:21is not even third world standard you
1:09:24cannot possibly convict two people as on
1:09:27the claim of a conspiracy then the
1:09:31verdict of the first of the supposed
1:09:33Mastermind is dismissed and the other
1:09:36cases stand the children absolutely the
1:09:39system is and that is the response to
1:09:40that question pertaining to the letters
1:09:42the same situation is currently being
1:09:45seen in the Ryan Ferguson case he was
1:09:47convicted longer than other man in the
1:09:49murder of a newspaper reporter he has
1:09:52since been exonerated but the other man
1:09:54remains in prison in fact I I'm sorry
1:09:57but over here I do know that in a murder
1:09:59case you would not divide it into three
1:10:02different trials that was the first
1:10:04source of error without that had all
1:10:07three defendants been put in the same
1:10:10courtroom Scott Styers and Deborah the
1:10:13entire outcome would have been different
1:10:15now the other aspect it's the letters
1:10:17that come up I see and the other aspect
1:10:19is the bullets and those have been
1:10:20discussed at nauseum online and the the
1:10:24explanation is a very simple one can you
1:10:27explain one last time for our listeners
1:10:30how the bullets came to be in Deborah's
1:10:33purse it's especially accounting
1:10:35prosecutor Bill Montgomery always sees
1:10:37that there is some evidence in that what
1:10:38is what happened really Deborah while
1:10:41doing laundry in the apartment the
1:10:43Deborah found that uh seal I should say
1:10:45sealed box of bullets in other words
1:10:47that box was not open she found it while
1:10:50she was doing laundry and in order for
1:10:52the bullets not to lie around she shot
1:10:54them in her purse which she had on her I
1:10:56don't know couch or whatever
1:10:58and then she continued and then she
1:11:00continued doing laundry and the next
1:11:02thing that happened is all of a sudden
1:11:03Osiris calls and tells her that
1:11:05Christopher is missing from them all now
1:11:08she always had that sealed box of
1:11:10bullets in her purse there was no
1:11:13connection to the murder scene so my
1:11:15question to those people who question
1:11:17about the bullets is what do you do with
1:11:19the sealed box of bullets throw it at
1:11:21somebody's head and they were still at
1:11:23the house they had absolutely nothing to
1:11:25do with the crime right at this point
1:11:27and even worse next on the next day when
1:11:30Deborah moved to went to Florence to be
1:11:32with the family of her father and she
1:11:34was asked to come down to the Pinal
1:11:36County Sheriff's Office she still had
1:11:38the box of bullets in her purse now do
1:11:41you really believe that a box of bullets
1:11:43which had anything to do with the
1:11:44killing you would bring it to a
1:11:46sheriff's office huh hardly so it's just
1:11:48another debunked talking point from the
1:11:50few detractors that remained nothing
1:11:53that anybody should really pay any
1:11:54attention to at this point if he asked
1:11:56me it is not evidence for anything I
1:11:58tell you what the when I when I got in
1:12:01first involved I was always told you
1:12:03that it was unclear who shot Christopher
1:12:05I tell you what the gun that was used
1:12:08was found in Roger Scott's apartment
1:12:10together with a box of shelves and there
1:12:13were seven shelves missing seven bullets
1:12:16missing now in your opinion should the
1:12:18case be reopened or would you feel that
1:12:20that would just be too painful for
1:12:21Deborah at this point should it be
1:12:23reopened for Scott and stars well I
1:12:25think for the sake of justice for the
1:12:27sake of finding out what really happened
1:12:28it should be reopened I think what would
1:12:31what would come out is that gym Stars
1:12:33was foolish and irresponsible and he
1:12:36should be punished for it that's why I'm
1:12:38saying okay give the man 10 years 15
1:12:39years 20 years that's fine but not the
1:12:42death penalty and I think Roger Scott
1:12:44was right where he belongs I asked
1:12:45Deborah the same question being a native
1:12:48of Germany how do you feel about the
1:12:49death penalty in the United States
1:12:50should it be abolished Nationwide well
1:12:53the thing is I understand people who are
1:12:55angry and this and that one revenge or
1:12:57retaliation yeah I could see that point
1:12:58I was on a TV show where they made a a
1:13:01survey and that was the result that came
1:13:03out that 60 were advocated for the death
1:13:06penalty the thing is if you see how it's
1:13:09handled in the United States it scares
1:13:11the [ __ ] out of you and it should never
1:13:13be administered like that if you really
1:13:16have the death penalty I mean of course
1:13:18things like let's say Timothy McVeigh
1:13:20the the Oklahoma City bomber people like
1:13:22that who admit and who actually want to
1:13:24be put to death okay but not in the way
1:13:28that it's handled in the states nowadays
1:13:29yeah my thoughts on it have changed
1:13:31drastically over the past three or four
1:13:33years as I've researched it I used to
1:13:35kind of like Deborah I didn't really
1:13:36have an opinion on it I just thought
1:13:39that's the law that's the way it is but
1:13:40the more I see the misconduct and the
1:13:43corruption and more exonerees year after
1:13:46year after year I have to advocate for
1:13:49the death penalty to be ended in our
1:13:50country and it's happening state by
1:13:53state slowly but surely it's going to
1:13:55happen eventually right I mean the claim
1:13:57of
1:13:58to live in in safety and
1:14:03if that's standard by putting these
1:14:04people in prison
1:14:06and keeping him there there's no and to
1:14:08say that it's it's cheaper to kill them
1:14:11it's just an uneducated claim which has
1:14:14no Foundation because every death
1:14:16penalty case costs 100 times more than a
1:14:19regular uh life sentence you know sure
1:14:22the statistics don't lie we spend far
1:14:24much I don't know that it still amazes
1:14:27me how excuse me but how stupid people
1:14:28are sometimes you know no it's that's
1:14:30exactly true it should be said because
1:14:33people just don't pay attention
1:14:35I want to thank you personally for
1:14:37myself and from everybody here at
1:14:38Injustice anywhere for all that you have
1:14:40done to help educate us on this case you
1:14:42truly brought the facts to all of us and
1:14:44brought an understanding that Deborah is
1:14:46100 innocent so I want to thank you for
1:14:48that absolutely okay thank you for
1:14:50having me sure thank you for joining us
1:14:52have a good night Deborah's case was an
1:14:54injustice anywhere featured case please
1:14:56visit injusticehyphen anywhere.org to
1:14:58learn more about our featured cases and
1:15:00please take a moment to click on the
1:15:02club 22 logo at the bottom of our home
1:15:04page to learn more about Lauren Hill
1:15:06once you do you may feel the need to
1:15:08help her cause I certainly know I did
1:15:10please join us again next week same time
1:15:13and channel thank you for tuning in good
1:15:15night

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