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Indian Church History (4/4) : Factionalism in Malankara Church | Ep.18 (Rev. Fr. Christopher Mathew) — Transcript

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0:04Welcome back to our fourth and final
0:06part of Indian church history. Uh in
0:09this episode, we're going to be talking
0:11about factionalism. But before we even
0:12begin, uh Chris Hutchin, could you start
0:14us off with prayer?
0:15>> Sure. Let's bow our heads in prayer.
0:20body of commod as we come to you on this
0:22day continuing our journey about our
0:25church in India and how it grew uh
0:28through the witness of your holy apostle
0:30St. Thomas and continue to grow through
0:31the uh those who came after him and the
0:34the bishops, the priests, the lay people
0:37who continued uh that on that foundation
0:40laid by him. May we continue to grow and
0:43to learn more about how we as a people
0:46uh continue to remain steadfast in our
0:49faith uh in you Lord maintaining
0:51upholding uh the faith and the practice
0:54of the holy church so that we today can
0:56continue to flourish and to know you and
0:59to continue to preach your gospel in all
1:01places. We continue to help and guide us
1:03through the study so that you more than
1:06looking at uh different factions and
1:08different people's uh right or wrong. We
1:11look at how you are always our guide and
1:14yours are the light who lightens our
1:16path so that we can continue uh to bring
1:19uh one another and all peoples uh into
1:22your heavenly kingdom. We ask that you
1:24continue to strengthen our paths uh to
1:26always be guided uh to come closer as
1:28brothers and sisters in Christ and that
1:30uh we as one people hearing your voice
1:34uh will hear you and respond uh to your
1:38call. May we continue to bless all those
1:39of us to pray for them, those who are
1:41sick and suffering and that we're always
1:43continually uh uh uplifted and protected
1:46uh by your grace and mercy. We ask the
1:48name of the father, the son, the holy
1:50spirit both now and always and forever
1:52and ever. Amen.
1:55>> So recently we heard some feedback
1:58regarding the reformation movement in
2:01the Malanchara church. Um how would you
2:03respond to these claims?
2:05>> Uh thanks uh VC. You know you know our
2:07last video we went through a lot of a
2:08lot of parts of our church and we think
2:10throughout all the different videos one
2:13thing that we're always mindful of that
2:14we are all one uh group of St. Thomas
2:18Christians. all the churches in in
2:19Kerala and particularly in the Malanchar
2:21church, all who claim to be part of that
2:23or all who are part of that Malanchar
2:25tradition know that we we come for that
2:27same route and as we've been
2:29highlighting throughout this talks and
2:31these videos uh seeing how all of our
2:33different branches that we see today
2:35have come about you know and us being
2:37particularly from the Malcore Orthodox
2:39Church uh you know we have a perspective
2:42how we see all those things happen uh
2:43but seeing all the different uh parts
2:46that happened in history and seeing
2:47where they they uh branch off uh never
2:50wanting to belittle or to put down
2:52anyone but just highlighting where we
2:54saw different events happen and then we
2:56went our separate ways. We saw that uh
2:59when the Catholics came, the Portuguese
3:01came and brought Catholicism uh
3:03specifically into the church of
3:04Malankara and how that caused a division
3:07in a similar way when the CMS
3:09missionaries came from uh Great Britain.
3:11we see a similar uh division of people
3:13seeing difference of opinions of where
3:16they saw that they the people in Mankar
3:19saw where the church should be going and
3:20what direction right and so um I really
3:24appreciate the feedback that we received
3:26um some things we you know can be seen
3:29in different ways right particularly
3:30different churches see different lights
3:32of why different things happen let me
3:34just say from my own personal health you
3:36know we had no ill will or trying to uh
3:38despair or belittle any church
3:40particularly the Martha church that was
3:42not my intention. Um but at the same
3:44time we were highlighting that we know
3:46that during the time in the 19 the end
3:49in the middle of the 19th century in the
3:511830s uh when the uh or the beginning of
3:54the 19th century in the the 1800s when
3:56the CMS missionaries were coming in our
3:59initially as we said last time and
4:01helping our church they saw our church
4:03as a sister church and could help us to
4:06grow. we uh uh wholeheartedly and with
4:09great thanksgiving uh accepted the help
4:11of the CMS missionaries and the church
4:13of uh England and the Anglican church
4:15and helping us to build and grow our
4:18community. At the same time as more
4:20different missionaries came and the
4:22reformed uh uh teachings uh uh you know
4:25the Christian churches uh denominations
4:28that are part of the reformed movement
4:29were being uh uh being put in you know
4:32or being preached or being taught in our
4:34church. We saw that many in our church
4:37were uh gravitating towards that and so
4:40and we see in the history uh of the
4:43church you know you know Abraham
4:44Alpachutin being a a a leader of our
4:46church being a malp teacher of our
4:49church he agreed seeing that there was a
4:51need for change and reform definitely uh
4:53that vision of saying that how we can
4:55grow because the church understood that
4:57we needed to train but at the same time
5:00uh maintaining the faith that from the
5:02very beginning our church is very
5:04particular about uph holding you know
5:05especially when we saw at the kunin
5:07cross uh oath maintaining that the faith
5:10of the our fathers of the saints
5:12tradition knew that it it couldn't be
5:15changed or or moved one way or the other
5:17that went too far away from what was
5:19handed down to us and we see that uh
5:21through the um uh actions or through the
5:26um yeah the actions of Ibra Malpad that
5:29start the ball rolling in in changing
5:31and adapting the faith you know I'm not
5:33you we're We'll you know we in this
5:35video we're just going to highlight more
5:37on just and the historical start facts
5:40about how things are branching off from
5:42each other and not all the theological
5:44uh positions or points that we can do in
5:46a different video. Um but at the same
5:49time definitely our church had meetings
5:52and about where we could grow and and
5:55adapt and reform but not I know it comes
5:57in in terms of the faith of the church
5:59and we see that particularly you know
6:01when reform movement was being uh in
6:04earnest by the CMS missionaries really
6:07trying to get our church to think
6:09differently and not what they saw as
6:10being uh being to be less Catholic and
6:13being more uh Bible based or be
6:16Christian. We see that already by the
6:18the uh Malika Metropolitan at that time
6:21Marianius the four fourth convening
6:23meetings in Mlakara. By 1836 it was very
6:26clear that at that meeting uh even
6:28having the the bishop of the the author
6:31church also participating Marxinos
6:34who was the or sorry Mark Quiddulos who
6:36was the uh uh the bishop at the time of
6:39the Malibar independent uh Syrian
6:41church. He also came and participated
6:43with other priests and in that meeting
6:46uh in Malcara they decided they they
6:49thanked the support of the CMS minaries
6:52missionaries and all they helped in
6:54building up our seminary in Cortem at
6:57the same time they said we will not
6:58deviate for the faith and practices of
7:00the Syrian church and we see that from
7:02that point forward there was a a a
7:05division you know already some people
7:07who agreed with the uh with the reform
7:10movement uh ideas and teaching things
7:12they split off and part that was the
7:14first beginnings of the Anglican church
7:16in in India particularly in in the in
7:18the Malanka regions of Kerala that they
7:20started and committee joined with them
7:22and but and through the uh the the the
7:26group that stayed with them but wanted
7:28the reform movements particularly headed
7:30or or being led by I should say by
7:32Abraham Malpain and others who agreed
7:34with him and then and and then when
7:36Matthew Sparenius his nephew comes back
7:38as a bishop that started the ball
7:40rolling I agree Yes, it wasn't a uh
7:43immediate change of the liturgy, but at
7:45the same time we see that from that
7:48point the branch is already is already
7:50branching out away from the the
7:52traditional practices uh of the Syrian
7:55Christians in Kerala. And so uh but like
7:57I said that's not to say that you know
8:00very negative about him. I truly believe
8:02that Abraham Malpine and those with him
8:04really believed in needing reforms for
8:06the church. And one of the things even
8:07to us today you know one of the benefits
8:09of that you know up until that point you
8:12know our liturgy was not being
8:13celebrated in the vernacular language it
8:15was still just in Syriak that's why we
8:16were known as Syrian Christians in
8:18Kerala or Malabaru uh in Malankara
8:20because that was the only language used
8:22for worship you know preaching and
8:24teaching the priests and the bishops
8:26would translate and and teach the people
8:28in the the native language by that time
8:30was malam but until the the really only
8:34when we get to uh this reform movement
8:36coming in India that we see in earnest.
8:38Our church is being more more adamant
8:41about doing things in Malayalam. You
8:43know that it began before the this
8:45before this uh division that happened
8:48when our our our our Malcolm
8:49Metropolitan uh gifted the our Sak Bible
8:53uh to Reverend Buchanan and to help
8:55translate the Bible from Sirak into Mala
8:58so people could understand and have
9:00copies of their own like they had in
9:01Europe. But then slowly but surely more
9:04reforms came that was more than what our
9:06church would the Malcar church the monk
9:08Orthodox church uh was willing to
9:10accept. Right? And so then that those
9:13differences
9:16have because of those those reform
9:18ideals. And so those who who accepted
9:20the reform ideals and wanted to go in
9:22that direction went off which became
9:23later the Martha church. and those who
9:25were who did not uh agree with those
9:28reforms, you know, remained as part of
9:30the the Orthodox Yakabet section of the
9:33church at that time. And so, um, you
9:35know, and those are there's a lot a lot
9:38of other specifics you can go into, but
9:40but in the in the end, that's where we
9:42see uh that division happen. So I
9:44appreciate the feedback um that were
9:47there but at the same time uh being
9:49mindful that you know it's not to uh
9:52discourage or to to talk bad about one
9:55or the other. It's just highlighting
9:56where we see the beginnings of the
9:58division happen because particularly in
10:00this video series that's what we're
10:02highlighting where the church the St.
10:04times Christians of inhal in Malankara
10:07in the church in India we see all the
10:10different branches happening just like
10:11in Europe after the splits of the
10:13Catholic church and partisanm we see in
10:15the eastern church of the divisions
10:17after the uh uh Islamic rule uh coming
10:21within Ottoman Empire in a similar way
10:23we see divisions happening in the church
10:24of Mona because of different uh groups
10:27of people coming and provide and giving
10:29different ideas a and perspectives of
10:32the the of the church and seeing how our
10:35church also responded in different ways
10:37and branching out in different ways. And
10:39so, but we hope and pray that we all
10:41that we all continue to serve as one,
10:44serve as followers of Jesus Christ and
10:46as the church. And then hope and pray
10:49that um we will continue to see each
10:51other as brothers, sisters of Christ,
10:53and work effectively in ways that we
10:55have in ways that we can work in common,
10:58right? and servicing those in need and
11:00doing missionary work and serving the
11:02less fortunate. Uh and also it talks
11:05about how our our different traditions
11:07are are have grown and also where we
11:09have things in common and where we defer
11:11and how we can uh bridge those division
11:14those those gaps or those differences of
11:16opinion so that we can come closer to a
11:18common witness in Jesus Christ.
11:22So moving into factionalism
11:24chronologically speaking, we kind of
11:26left off where the Syriak patriarch
11:28comes to uh India to resolve the
11:31disputes between the Martha church and
11:34the monarch church at this time. And so
11:37we see that with Dianius the 5th we see
11:41that the sir major consecrates six more
11:43bishops one of which was uh St.
11:46Gregorios and this is where we see the
11:49start of seven
11:49>> diosis. And so from there, we're moving
11:53into like the 1900s to modern times. So
11:57what can you say a little bit about that
11:59time period moving towards the beginning
12:01of the 20th century? So when the
12:03patriarch himself comes and says that
12:05Matthew is no longer the Monica
12:08metropolitan and his and it was now uh
12:12Marianius the 5th, Joseph Mardianius the
12:155th who was consecrated by him himself
12:18by patriarch Peter the third. Um he says
12:21he is my su he is the one chosen right
12:23to be the mala metropolitan and because
12:25of his presence the courts now agree
12:28okay it's no longer Matthews marious
12:30they have so that's why the march uh
12:32from that point forward had to to kind
12:34of leave and move and now uh the
12:36patriarch now solidifies his you know
12:39starts solidifying more authority in the
12:42church before that we never had this
12:44sense of centralized authority coming
12:46from the antiomp before that we just
12:49sending letters and showing and showing
12:51fraternity and uh and and support to our
12:54church and that we always were always
12:57respectful and understanding that that
12:59by being uh supported by the church in
13:01Antioch that helped us remain faithful
13:04to the faith of the church as we saw it
13:06of the the Santa St. Thomas that we were
13:08connected with the church as a whole by
13:10being part with the uh Syrian church you
13:13know because we're maintaining the same
13:14sak tradition we are maintaining the
13:17faith not as Catholics like when the the
13:19Portuguese came but as the Syrian Syrian
13:21Christianity worshiped and also not as
13:23the reforms coming from European
13:26countries like Britain not like the
13:28reformers but remaining faithful to that
13:30so but when he comes he patriarch also
13:33ordains or consecrates six more bishops
13:36I'll there's only Arch's dasis of Malika
13:38in one metropolitan who managed all the
13:40churches by dividing the church he was
13:43kind of uh lessening the authority of
13:46the monk metropolitan he would the
13:48martinis of the fist was still mala
13:50metropolitan he was the first among the
13:52other six of the now there's seven but
13:55now there's seven bishops all all along
13:58now saying you know when you get a
14:00consecrated by a patriarch you know the
14:02letter saying that you're you're showing
14:04respect and and uh allegiance to him.
14:07Meaning the faith that he's upholding,
14:10you know, particularly within our our
14:12orthodox understanding of uh when when
14:14we are get ordained as priests or
14:16bishops, you know, the it's never
14:18specifically to that person. The person
14:20the person who's who has been elected
14:23and and selected and consecrated as a a
14:25bishop and ultimately as a patriarch,
14:27they're responsible to uphold the faith
14:30of the church. in their position as
14:33patriarch their response to make sure
14:34that no we don't deviate from the faith
14:37of the of Jesus Christ right and that's
14:39why the patriarch helped us to resolve
14:41the issue with the reformers in
14:43Malankura and so but at the same time um
14:46by ordaining the six he's now causing
14:49they say hey more of you should be
14:51wearing to me right and so then that
14:53start causing a little bit of hey what
14:55how do we handle this right
14:57>> but isn't he still the spiritual head of
14:59the church so it would make sense to go
15:01towards him.
15:02>> Definitely, like I said, the church
15:03always never showed disrespect to him
15:05because we maintain our identity as an
15:09apostolic church because we're remain in
15:11in communion with churches outside of
15:13India too, right? That solidified uh
15:16that we are not just making up things on
15:17our own, right? Because when you look at
15:19other churches around the world, they
15:20all had connections with one another.
15:22sometimes you know having large
15:25separations because of different wars or
15:27different uh like you know like with the
15:29Ottoman Empire splitting a lot of
15:30communities apart particularly the
15:32church in India is now very much cut off
15:34from the rest of the church that's west
15:36of us uh even the uh especially when the
15:39the the Muslim the Islam comes to the
15:42church in to Persia it splits our
15:44connection with the Persian church as
15:46well uh and we see that through in
15:48Europe and North Africa and all things
15:49like that right so but The key thing is
15:52remaining faithful to the church as a
15:54whole, right? And so, you know,
15:56particularly from our perspective,
15:58maintaining connections with the church
16:00and in Antioch was helps us to solidify
16:03saying it's not us making this up. We
16:05are maintaining a faith that is
16:07connected to the church as a whole,
16:08right? And so, uh that the the uh
16:12spiritual authority that Patrick has is
16:15one of supporting and maintaining the
16:17faith of the church in India, right?
16:19that and that's something that we we
16:21acknowledge and we uh we uh respect
16:24because that's how we make that we're
16:26saying that we are part of the uh the
16:28the communion of churches uh the
16:30Orthodox church as a whole at the same
16:32time saying that we're not subject to
16:34just having no no um
16:38um uh say in what's going on like having
16:41someone from a foreign place just
16:43dictating terms of what's happening the
16:45realities happening happening in
16:47Carerala right and so that that you
16:49start seeing that now okay now that
16:51there's this uh patriarch coming and and
16:55kind of forcing people say your
16:57allegiance to me right to like and it's
16:59almost more not so much to him as a
17:00patriarch as of Antioch and upholding
17:02the faith of the church but him as a
17:04person that's stressing people start
17:06getting uh a little bit wary of it but
17:09still you know what but that like you
17:11said you know benefit of that that's how
17:14we maintain our faith right maintain our
17:16we're not we're not reformers like the
17:18mother of our church was going towards
17:19and we're not Catholic like the before
17:21the Portuguese came right we're
17:22maintaining that that orthodox faith and
17:25so we go um some years after him patri
17:29the third does that and then when we get
17:31later now into the beginnings of the
17:3320th century um and then whereas the
17:38fifth is now getting old in age and we
17:39need uh we need a successor right and so
17:43uh to take charge for him so they select
17:45two rambans to be sent to the patriarch
17:49um to be ordained to be successors
17:51because still we show that respect that
17:53that's how we're maintaining our our
17:55faith right and so this is when uh uh
17:59Ramban Givergis and Raman Paulus are
18:01selected to be as new bishops of the
18:03church
18:04>> and they go to uh the patriarch to get
18:06consecrated and their consecration was
18:08done by patriarch more Abdullah who is
18:10now the current patriarch of Antioch at
18:12the time in 1908
18:15but it's done in Jerusalem that's where
18:16he was at the Okay. And so those two uh
18:20Rambons who go um what then when they're
18:24consecrated to bishops what are their
18:25names?
18:25>> So um Rambon Givergis is G uh Grig
18:30Marianius because he was also the one
18:31selected from that that that association
18:33meeting uh to be as the new the
18:36successor Malar Metropolitan. So that at
18:38that time the Dian's name was always
18:40given to the the Maler Metropol the one
18:42who was in charge right. So he would be
18:44dian the six which we know in our we
18:46know now in our church as Vatrical
18:48Marianius and now as St. St. Martanius
18:51uh of Artial right and so he is the one
18:53consecrated at that time and um uh
18:57Rambon Paulus is uh consecrated uh as
19:01Paul Mar Curlos you know with him you
19:04know but as a new bishop of the church
19:06but not not to be as the um not as Maler
19:10Metropolan but one of the just one of
19:11the multiples now in Carol because now
19:14we have uh you know now we have multiple
19:16not just one right
19:17>> uh administrator to the the churches uh
19:20churches and the Mullen church.
19:22>> So kind of taking a lens off the um St.
19:25Diane and kind of putting it back on to
19:27the patriarch patriarch of Syria. Um
19:30could you remind me of his name?
19:31>> At that time the patriarch Abdullah
19:33>> patriarch Abdullah u what happens to him
19:36during this time?
19:37>> So he is the one
19:40the one that's in charge of the church.
19:42Right. So one thing I I forgot to
19:43mention when he gives his letter of u
19:46authority to the you know because every
19:48time you get consecrated the patriarch
19:50or the bishop that that led the service
19:52of the consecration will give a what we
19:54know as a salo or like saying the
19:56authority letter. So when you go back to
19:57your uh church, you're saying I've been
20:00validly ordained and so but per the
20:03decision of the meeting of the church in
20:05Malanka before they get sent uh maintain
20:09asked the patriarch make sure to include
20:11that I am now selected as the new
20:13Malanker Metropolitan but the patriarch
20:14didn't put that in there.
20:16>> He just put you're just a metropolitan
20:17of the church not the Maliker
20:19Metropolitan.
20:19>> Oh so St. Dia wasn't even Moner
20:21Metropolitan. he was a metropolitan but
20:23he didn't put in the um sorry the
20:26stantion like the the authority letter
20:28>> um
20:29>> for him the saying that he is the monk
20:31metropolitan he's just one of the
20:32metropolitans right so both him and uh
20:35marudos many are just the same right as
20:38being sent and so uh uh Marines just
20:41kind of appealed to him but the patri
20:43said I've already wrote my letter kind
20:44of and they sent they get sent back um
20:46and they return
20:48um to Malanka and so when um uh when
20:53they return by that time Mardinius the
20:555th passes away about a year later after
20:58their return and then it comes like
20:59who's going to be the Metropolitan
21:02and so when we see this uh uh Mardanius
21:05the 5th passed away I should I should be
21:07more specific that in 19 after his
21:10passing that the uh the church held a
21:13meeting at uh the old seminary the our
21:16seminary in Cortem and announced that
21:18Gabri Mar Dynatius is the new Mik
21:21metropolitan that's the [clears throat]
21:22message that we sent in telegram to the
21:24patriarch you saying that you know that
21:26mis has passed away and then also now
21:29that we have uh selected as per our
21:32previous decision you know when before
21:34the he got or consecrated as a
21:36metropolitan he is our successor right
21:38he's the planned successor as now as
21:40maradius the sixth and so with that
21:43being said um the patriarch he sees that
21:46he go okay you made decision but now
21:48he's wanting to make sure that people
21:51don't uh the church does not lessen his
21:54authority right so then after that after
21:56the message he calls because he said
21:58he'll come to he comes to India
22:00pre Abella he this is now his first
22:02visit now coming to India because
22:04Marianasius and Mar curulos went to
22:07Jerusalem got consecrated by him to be
22:09made as bishops of the church or
22:10metropolitans of the church uh now after
22:13um mardinas the fifth passed away and
22:16they've elected vatus the as dishes the
22:186th now predict He said he comes because
22:21he wants to make sure that he is his
22:23authority is not diminished. That's what
22:25we start saying because once he comes to
22:26India he starts making all the bishops
22:28who are uh living you know at that time
22:31in Malankara uh to write letters of uh
22:34submission to him re reaffirming that
22:37>> you said as submission to him submitting
22:39to him
22:39>> sub to his authority.
22:41>> Okay. So when they're writing letters
22:43submitting to his authority isn't that
22:45authority as the spiritual head or is
22:47that the administrative head or
22:49He when Peter comes down this time part
22:52Abdullah comes this time it's for both
22:53like he's coming for not just spiritual
22:56authority he's saying that you it's I
22:58he's in charge right he's saying that I
22:59have full authority right that's what
23:01you we're submitting to and so Mardinius
23:04opposes this he's like we can't we at
23:06ordinations you know our consecrations
23:08as per you know like as the the practice
23:11of the church you know we submit to the
23:13authority of the spiritual authority of
23:15the consecrating patriarch because he's
23:17the one upholding churches of the
23:19church, right? The faith and practices
23:21and all the church is is being entrusted
23:23to him. And so that's what he's
23:24imparting to the new metropolitans. Uh
23:27and so when we get when they come back,
23:30they understand that he has that
23:32spiritual authority. But when it comes
23:33to the the the running of the church in
23:35India, it is more of like the the the
23:38authority is with the Mala Metropolitan
23:40because he's there specifically to
23:42govern the needs of the people in Malca,
23:45right? Because the patriarch being far
23:46away, there's still not, you know, like
23:48the uh internet or or or travel that's
23:51so fast that you can actively work and
23:54fix you know and handle needs of the
23:57people so far away right you know they
24:00can come it takes some time but it says
24:01that the effective uh use of bishops the
24:04purpose is to manage the needs and the
24:07affairs of the people and the church
24:09said that we had that independence right
24:11but we also were dependent on the the
24:13our sister churches from the west you
24:16particularly the the antio church in
24:17Antioch the Syriak church in Antioch to
24:20help us right so we we never uh wanted
24:24to diminish that but also didn't want to
24:25lose our independence on that so the da
24:27was kind of the conundrum we were kind
24:29of in you could almost say right well
24:31you know how do we find that balance and
24:34so mardanas
24:35uh mard the 6th uh opposed now this
24:40second letter of saying hey submitting
24:42to him and so some of them be it
24:44churches And he would even go to
24:45individual churches asking for
24:46submission letters to his authority. So
24:49>> wasn't it only the bishops who were
24:51submitting these letters?
24:52>> Even the even asked other the churches
24:55as well specific to like directly from
24:57churches as well.
24:58>> Oh even the priest on behalf of the
25:00congregation
25:01>> or just the congregation there to ask
25:02them to make hey make sure that you are
25:04submitting make recognizing I'm the you
25:06know I'm in charge kind of thing. Right.
25:08So now that causes now this causes
25:10confusion and division because like I
25:11said everybody wanted to respect the the
25:15spiritual authority of the patriarch
25:16right because we know that that's what
25:17helps us maintain the faith and practice
25:20of the church as they understood to be
25:21always true right uh at the same time
25:24they don't want to lose their
25:24independence because before the uh the
25:28kunin cross you know we we had the arch
25:31deacons and the martas and then having
25:33some support until of taking care of our
25:36deeds right and So that was a kind of
25:38set that we always understood that yes
25:40that we were uh reliant on churches to
25:43help us to continue to grow and to have
25:45our uh bishops to be consecrated but we
25:47were left to kind of handle our needs
25:49right
25:49>> what difference would it make if we were
25:51already under the Syrian Orthodox Church
25:54>> that's where the difference opinion was
25:56it under or was saying we're under we
25:58were the we were there with the support
25:59of this church so that that was kind of
26:00like how do you define it right so
26:03manganius [clears throat]
26:04and the orthod like what now it's now
26:07when we talk we talk about factualism or
26:08the Orthodox side would see it more as
26:10the church the Syrian church is what's
26:12supporting us not we're not under them
26:14but they're the one supporting us but
26:16we're we are needing to make sure that
26:19we're uh upholding the faith and we know
26:21that the Syriak uh tradition that both
26:25our church India has always been a part
26:26of be it with the church in Persia be
26:29the church in uh Antioch we are part of
26:32that same family of churches you know be
26:34it independent or not that's one big
26:37community of Christians, the Syriak
26:39speaking, the Sierak worshiping
26:41Christians which we are part of. That's
26:42that's who we always saw ourselves as
26:44because even before Malam became a
26:46formal language in in India, there were
26:49Sierak being spoken and woripped in in
26:51India because Malam is a mo more modern
26:54language that comes after like many
26:56centuries, right? Even that's after St.
26:58Thomas comes, right? And so the
27:00worshipping language of the Christian
27:02community of the St. Thomas Christians
27:04was Syriak. That's where we we are see
27:06ourselves as uh Syriak Christians,
27:08right? Because that was the worshiping
27:10language. So we don't we know that's
27:11what upholds our faith. And so knowing
27:14that you know when other foreigners were
27:16coming right and and telling and trying
27:19to tell us to be you know be it Catholic
27:22and being more Latin or being more
27:23Protestant and being more reformed what
27:26helped us to maintain our identity as
27:28what as we knew it as Christian faith as
27:30handed by St. Thomas Apostle was through
27:32the Syriak liturgy. And so that's we
27:34didn't want to lose and that was very
27:36important in the same page also
27:37understood that that's what that was
27:39important to everyone and so but now
27:42we're start saying that [clears throat]
27:43more than just holding this one true
27:46faith now more is being asked well at
27:48least where we're willing to give
27:50>> but like I said where are the balances
27:52because we know that that's what's
27:53that's the Syrian church is what's
27:55helping us
27:56>> through the patriarch he's what's
27:57helping us but how do we make sure that
27:59we're uh just not just blindly just
28:02following a person and and and just you
28:05know supporting financially or or
28:07submitting authority to him to manage as
28:10as he sees fit when he's when he's not
28:12here man you know amongst the the
28:14faithful right
28:14>> so our dilemma was more of just like how
28:16do we are we submitting to him as a head
28:19are we submitting to the like the church
28:21authority or is it to the patriarch the
28:25person as the
28:27>> managing a managing the the
28:29>> and like the administrative affairs
28:30>> administrative affairs and that's that's
28:32what We always saw administrative
28:34affairs of the church was always like we
28:36talked earlier was the arch deacons and
28:38then the the baras you know the mal
28:40metropolitans they came after right
28:42>> because up until then we know that we
28:44being part of the Syrian tradition there
28:46was bishops who came from like Persia
28:48and and and the what we know as modern
28:50day Iraq but the ministry affair was
28:52always done by priests and and bishops
28:56who came later they're living in in
29:00living in uh in India Right. And that's
29:03what and they and then because that that
29:05was a practical thing, right? It
29:06wouldn't make sense to keep relying on
29:09someone to send a letter after many
29:10months and you know weeks and months and
29:12even years sometimes to receive when
29:14they need to be handled then right when
29:16we needed help we'd send letters off and
29:18when the replies came we we maintained
29:21and kept what was being uh shown as the
29:24the true faith. uh but we know that
29:26administering the the day-to-day affairs
29:29was needed to be handled by the the the
29:32clergy that's living there right and and
29:35knowing the people right
29:37>> and so that was an important part for
29:39the church
29:40>> that was important to like particularly
29:42the you know the the Mullen Orthodox
29:45faction of the church
29:46>> so then what did St. es do for
29:49autosupply within the Malankara church.
29:51>> So that that was you know particular
29:53within our our Malanchar Orthodox Syrian
29:55church one one of the reasons we
29:58recognize him as a saint of church
29:59because of his his dedication and
30:03finding a way to uphold and maintain our
30:06our identity as St. many time as
30:08Christians of the Sierak uh uh lurggical
30:11uh form or the l sierak liturgy um uh as
30:16or worshippping as sirin worshiping in
30:18the sirk language um at the same time
30:21finding the independence so you you can
30:24imagine even mardanas oft you know all
30:28the only liturgy he do by the time he's
30:30born and being raised and growing in the
30:32church is now after the westic liturgy
30:34is fully um um being used now in church
30:39wel you know but there was a time of you
30:41know be it east or west Syriak and
30:43what's being used by the time you know
30:45by the end of the 19th century you know
30:47in the 18 end of the 1800s for sure now
30:50we already have westk liturgy being the
30:52main form of worser in our church right
30:54and the monger Christians and so that
30:57also means that they know the histories
30:59and when we look at the the histories of
31:01the church the Syrian church be it in
31:03Antioch and also but also in the Persian
31:05regions but uh uh understood that there
31:08was even in history there was a a there
31:11was a separate head of the Syrian church
31:13that was not part of that was outside of
31:15the Roman Empire or outside of the
31:18sphere of the Antiocan uh uh range you
31:22know but was you know outside you know
31:23that was part of the there was just in
31:25the Persian regions of the empire right
31:27and even when the Ottomans come it's
31:29still there's still a separation and
31:31that was the Catholic the Catholic of
31:33the east right because you know we
31:36talked touched upon a little bit earlier
31:37in the earlier videos. There was the the
31:40uh Syrian Christians who were Easter who
31:42who later we we we identify as
31:44destroying Christians. But even within
31:46the Persian Empire, there was uh Westerk
31:50uh Christians meaning Christians who
31:52were identified with the same faith of
31:54the church in Antioch, right? Because
31:56they were also they were they were so
31:58close and they're bordering each other.
32:00There was a large group of uh uh Wester
32:04Christians in Persia. those Christians
32:07centered around uh different parts of
32:09what's present day Iraq and their
32:12metropolitan started to regain precedent
32:14you know precedence with amongst them
32:16and to to be second only to the
32:18patriarch and so then they even now by
32:21the um [clears throat] the middle ages
32:24of like the 14th 15th 16th centuries you
32:27start seeing that come about and up
32:29until the 18th century up until uh our
32:32kind of our division with the Martha
32:34church there was a catholic locals of
32:35the east who was second only to the
32:38patriarch. He had authority of all the
32:40churches uh uh east uh uh you know were
32:44Iraq and going east. So even our church
32:46say we would fall under his sphere of
32:47authority right. Um but slowly uh
32:52because of different you know uh you
32:53know the waning of the Christians in in
32:56those regions in in the Persian Empire
32:58and then Ottoman Empire which is present
33:00day Iraq that certainly diminished to
33:03where then it kind of faded away and and
33:06there was no more anymore Catholicos of
33:08the east living with like I said present
33:10day uh Iraq which is like in we learn
33:12Toree or the the
33:15Toree Salucius Sasopon those are kind of
33:18the places where they they were kind of
33:20a stronghold, but this start starts
33:22waning to the point where
33:24um uh it kind of faded away.
33:27>> So there's already a Catholic of the
33:29east established within the Syriak
33:31Orthodox Church,
33:32>> right?
33:32>> And that was from you said Iraq
33:36eastwards.
33:37>> Well, we know it's just present day Iraq
33:39because that's where the the Persian
33:40Empire, you know, you know, which
33:42present day Iran and Iraq were that's
33:43where the kind of the seat of
33:45Mesopotamian culture was in the the
33:47Persian Empire.
33:48>> What did that mean? there was already
33:48catholic of the east for the Indian
33:50church already before
33:51>> because even like we kind of touched on
33:53earlier like in the early parts we
33:54understood that when when we didn't have
33:56bishops in India we kind of fell under
33:58the the metropolitans that were to
34:00create on the Euphrates we were kind of
34:02under their sphere of uh of authority
34:04because they they were the closest to
34:06us. Um but once the uh the different
34:10empires and then now we see the the
34:11Portuguese come the by the 14 end of the
34:14you know the 15th century and the for
34:161490s and going into the 50th centuries
34:18they like we said earlier they start to
34:20get cut off. So now we're kind of
34:22independent right now we just have the
34:23arch deacon the kto now was on the rise
34:26at that time was no longer really
34:28directly administering to us because now
34:30we're now trying to fight for our own
34:31identity as uh s Christians amongst the
34:34the the Catholics. Right.
34:36>> Yeah. But but then they kind of rise and
34:38they kind of fall within that time frame
34:40of when we are trying to uh kind of uh
34:44maintain identity amongst the Catholics
34:46and then later amongst the uh the other
34:49European powers that were coming. Right.
34:51>> So then what were there court cases at
34:54the time when Zindacious
34:56[clears throat] um opposed the
34:58patriarch?
34:59>> Yes. So, so it's not there are court
35:01cases. It's not so much court cases just
35:02with amongst the community, right? Even
35:05like when the picture comes, they
35:06they're in the same they're all staying
35:07in the same place, but they're, you
35:09know, they're not not agreeing of how to
35:11handle the situation, right? And so when
35:14[clears throat]
35:15when the matious fati sees the patric of
35:19of of um overstepping his bounds by
35:22trying to you know asking submission
35:24letters from the other metropolitans and
35:26other specific uh churches um they break
35:30you know there's no more peace. The
35:32patriarch exterminicates Marianius for
35:34you know kind of working against him
35:36>> and then Mar uh Dianeus then also say
35:40hey we can't recognize the patriarch
35:41because he's overstepping his bounds
35:44within our church right
35:45>> so the court what what does the court
35:48fully decide
35:49>> so but there's there still right now
35:50still there's no court cases yet what
35:51what happens now amongst the community
35:54there's
35:56there's a split and we'll say at that
35:57time at least from our perspective a
35:59majority is with mard Ardanius saying
36:02hey we want to maintain our Syriak
36:04identity because that's that's that's
36:06always been our identity as Christians
36:07in Kerala in the in Malankara
36:10at the same time we need our
36:12independence right
36:13>> so we we we don't want so then but then
36:16there's also another sizable minority so
36:18it's minority doesn't mean like a small
36:20group there's a it's a decentsized
36:21minority who agree with the patriarch
36:23saying that that's they say that that's
36:25how we fully maintain our our identity
36:29to of the church right you know It's not
36:31a big deal to uh submit these letters
36:33because that's what that that'll uh
36:36maintain our identity as uh as a uh
36:40Christians in a Christian community and
36:42in and the Monger church because for
36:45them perspective we could also see
36:46because it's still a fresh memory about
36:48how we resolved our issues with the
36:50reform reformers right Ptor came and
36:52helped resolve it. So you can imagine
36:54many people were still uh mindful of
36:56that. that that's what helped us break
36:58the uh uh uh the issue the to break the
37:04the the hold of the reformers because up
37:05until then every time there was court
37:07that's when we were asking about court
37:08cases the court is always about are we
37:11do we accept the reformers uh leadership
37:14or not and it took the patriarch himself
37:16coming to break the the hold of the re
37:20the those who agreed with re reformed
37:22movement in our church and so and and
37:25they saw that what what really made the
37:28difference not being just Syrian
37:30Christians identified as Syrian
37:31Christians but having that authority the
37:33patriarch right
37:34>> so we could recognize so that's what was
37:38a a big factor of why we had to like
37:43balance of maintaining good relation you
37:45know maintaining relationship with the
37:46church in Antioch right the sak church
37:48but also trying to find balancing our
37:51independence right
37:52>> so what does saint datas do after this
37:54time because we know that He opposed the
37:57um I guess the letters of submission to
37:59the patriarch.
38:00>> And so like I said uh but Mar Dasis the
38:046 the virtual southern knowing the
38:06history saying hey you know what you
38:08know one part part of the site church
38:10had this catholic that was only second
38:13to the patriarch and had real authority
38:15of man uh man managing the affairs of
38:18the community where they were at. And he
38:21says our church now in India is growing.
38:23It's particularly the Monger church. And
38:24we are needing that uh um uh
38:29independence to help make our church
38:31grow, be able to allow our church to
38:32grow, not make allow our church to
38:33really grow. So no longer having to
38:35worry about when other uh um peoples or
38:39communities come and try to change our
38:42church. We have now have the a person
38:45who not just a mala metropolitan but
38:47someone who has uh full authority now to
38:49say that we are uh maintaining the
38:53identity savas Christians a sirak
38:56worshiing community in India and so he
38:58said you know let us uh reestablish the
39:02catholic in India so as he's researching
39:04all that [clears throat] he says this
39:06will be the way like he he's the the
39:09mind behind is that this is what we need
39:10for our church in India. Okay. And at
39:13the same time he be being him ordained
39:15by Patrick Abdullah back you know
39:17earlier in uh before many a couple years
39:20earlier going to Jerusalem he knew the
39:23history of the church at that time also
39:24was the patriarch Abdullah was not the
39:26only patriarch. There was a uh another
39:29patriarch who was retired patriarch
39:32patriarch Abdul Mashia II who was
39:34retired because
39:37[clears throat] at the time uh at the
39:39time of the church in Antioch was under
39:40Ottoman rule right the Ottoman Empire in
39:42control of what's present Turkey Syria
39:46uh the you know the Middle East most of
39:48majority of the Middle East right we
39:49know as Israel Palestine parts of Egypt
39:52all those things right and so without
39:54the um
39:57uh the authority of the government, the
39:59Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman government,
40:02you can't you can't effectively rule the
40:04your church because they allowed for
40:05minorities, Christian minorities to be
40:08living in the Ottoman Empire, but they
40:09had to be under under a uh you know a
40:13ruler, right? They recognized bishops as
40:15rulers of Christians. And so so that
40:17each patriarch be it from the Syrian
40:19church, the Greek church, Coptic church,
40:21Armenian church, they all had these
40:23letters of authority from the Ottoman
40:25Sultan, you know, or from his office,
40:26right? And so without that authority,
40:28you can't effectively ma manage or the
40:32manage the affairs of your church,
40:34right? Be it spiritual or
40:36administratively. And so it says uh uh
40:39at that time the patri Abd Masha II lost
40:43the the the letter of authority from the
40:45the um the sultan and there's different
40:48opinions of how that happened. Some say
40:50it because of political moving of other
40:52bishops who didn't like Mash the second
40:54Abdel Mash the second other because he
40:56had some other issues about uh FM and
41:00some there was a a group in the church
41:02consider who were opposed to because of
41:04some big reason in some kind of personal
41:06reasons but in the end he was not
41:09deposed as like he was no longer bishop
41:11he was just retired and you know what
41:13you need to retire and you he went to a
41:16monastery and then Peter Abdullah was
41:19elected from the Senate and and he got
41:21he and was able to obtain uh the letter
41:24of authority from the Sultan. So so from
41:27Marsh's perspective you know even
41:29Marianius and Marulos who went to
41:31Jerusalem they were consecrated by Mard
41:33Patriarch Abdullah because he was the uh
41:36the at the time the ruling patriarch but
41:37also had the authority from the
41:39government uh the government there right
41:40the the the sultan right of the Ottoman
41:43Empire. So does the M card church
41:45believe that the old patriarch was
41:48deposed of properly?
41:50>> Well, uh they they've for the fact they
41:53said he was retired properly. They said
41:56but just being retired we would say
41:57doesn't he doesn't lose his authority as
41:59a as a bishop one. So he was still they
42:02would never never said or at least from
42:03our perspect
42:05like excommunicated or like removed as
42:08an office of bishop, right? He was he
42:10was just retired from being as a
42:12patriarch. But at the same time once
42:13you're like there's also an
42:14understanding within the church just as
42:16a whole um they still have that kind of
42:20respect right or authority like they
42:21can't they you know within particularly
42:23within the Syrian church he couldn't do
42:25like make make decisions right or I say
42:29within the bounds of the Ottoman Empire
42:31he couldn't do anything other than he
42:32could celebrate liturgies he could do
42:34kurbanas because that's just a uh
42:36worshiing part right but in terms of
42:38administrative he had he didn't have
42:39authority but the church of Malik is
42:41that part of the Ottoman Empire Right?
42:43So we say hey we can recognize him as
42:45having authority you know and we can
42:47welcome him so the church because he's
42:48still a bishop of the church and so that
42:51mas
42:52uh we can say cleverly calls a patriarch
42:54because he's still a retired patriarch
42:57comes in and and because part Abdullah
43:00uh sorry Abdul Mashiah has a now has an
43:04affinity for our church being called and
43:06respected he consecrates our first
43:09Catholicos you know uh basilios
43:12uh Paulos the first
43:13>> but isn't catholic only a name it's not
43:16like that
43:16>> so no now it's a title it's his
43:17authority now it's a authoritative a
43:19title right and in the letter of of
43:23authority you like we said like for the
43:25pod was getting from the other
43:26metropolitans the consecration of uh uh
43:31basilis the first uh catholos in that
43:35letter he says now he has all authority
43:36to rule the church and the church and
43:39malanker has the right to uh consecrate
43:42new bishops as they need and also to uh
43:45administer the church as it needs and
43:47the key thing that shows what a church
43:49from just being independent alto can
43:51consecrate uh its own muron and bishops
43:55>> right having that now there's no one now
43:57you're not waiting dependent on any
43:58other sister church or other patriarch
44:01once you're able to consecrate your own
44:03bishops and consecrate your own on the
44:05buron that that's why we use the crism
44:07for consecrating uh or uh for um the
44:11sacramentation or confirmation in
44:14churches or also for consecrating our
44:16churches.
44:17>> That's that's now that you're showing
44:18you have the full authority to do as you
44:21need right to fully grow.
44:22>> But isn't there a worry that St. Datas
44:25when he when the helping with the start
44:27of the Malanchara church or the
44:30independence of the Malanchara church
44:32was there not a little bit of deception
44:34involved because he didn't go through
44:36the proper channels of
44:38>> well well the current patriarch
44:39>> you is the way how you look at us in
44:42perspective right I wouldn't say you
44:44know from our church particular we say
44:45we deception we say that he found a way
44:47to you know how do we deal with the
44:49patriarch and patriarch Abdel II who we
44:52felt was being overreaching
44:54and his balance of asking because we
44:57can't depose him because we're not he's
45:00his authority is in in the Ottoman
45:02Empire in Antioch, right? But then our
45:04church but we have a decision because
45:05the the church of the with the reformers
45:08saying that he has also authority in
45:10church of Malanka, right?
45:11>> But aren't we just I guess rejecting him
45:14or rejecting his authority as a head?
45:16were rejecting a story of of forcing uh
45:20our church to be uh temporary under him.
45:24Right. So the so they at that time
45:25they're finding out what could we do
45:27because we don't agree with it. There's
45:28no there's no um recourse for us.
45:32>> Mhm.
45:32>> Because no one's even we have no
45:34standing in the Syrian the Syrian senate
45:36because even the Ottoman Empire say
45:37you're not bishops of the church in
45:39Syria. So you have no standing to make
45:40decisions for the Syrian church. So what
45:42is our recourse? Okay. Then we look at
45:44what is. So then Marinas look okay where
45:46in the church says that that doesn't
45:47have to worry about the cinded in Syria
45:50and worrying about the patriarch's sorry
45:51the sultan's you know uh authority that
45:55grants you know them to make uh temporal
45:59claims or you know administer and then
46:01but but allows us to kind of find our
46:03own find our own author authority or
46:06find our own uh um what's the word find
46:10our own uh forge our own kind of uh uh
46:13uh path to to be fully independent.
46:18So, but it doesn't it doesn't happen
46:19overnight, right? Even though we
46:21consecrate the first Kulkus, it's not
46:22accepted universally, right? Um because
46:25the biggest the in India, the real
46:28authority is still Malca Metropolitan,
46:29right? Mardanatius is still the Mala
46:32Metropolitan Catholic now is just a
46:34spiritual head of our church up until
46:36Marius
46:38passes away. Do we have the Bava
46:40Catholicos and Malcolm Metropolitan?
46:42That's why our current Bati has those
46:44both titles. He's the Catholicos as a
46:46spiritual head and and the the having
46:48that consecrity
46:50but as Malanker Metropolitan shows that
46:52he has the the rights to administer all
46:55the churches in the Malanker church,
46:57right? That's the the that's the uh um
47:00ancient title because and and you see
47:02that in most churches even the
47:04patriarchets before they were patriarchs
47:06they were the metropolitans of their of
47:09these large cities or these large
47:10regions you know be it Rome uh
47:12Constantinople Alexandria Jerusalem
47:16Antioch their titles also said they are
47:18the metropolitans of those cities and
47:20because of their standing uh the church
47:22of their of their weight amongst the
47:24region that show that they have more
47:26authority and so same thing the Mona
47:28Metropolitan it has that that that uh uh
47:32the administrative authority because
47:34that's the ancient the head of the
47:36bishop of the church and now recognizing
47:38him as a universal head he's now also
47:41the Catholicos to to govern right
47:43because now like I said earlier up until
47:45patriarch Peter the third you only had
47:46one bishop so there's no need for it but
47:48after that that that and then pro
47:50delegating also consecrating two bishops
47:52and having more bishops uh to submit him
47:55now there's a s there's
47:57uh Malcolm has some other bishops to
48:00rule with and also to continue because
48:02now we can consecrate our own bishops
48:03because now we have more than one always
48:05now right because we have seven right
48:07from the beginning after pat the third
48:09king and now we have other bishops to
48:11also help with consecrating of uh of Mur
48:14we're not dependent we need two more
48:16bishops to come from somewhere else we
48:18had them all now in in Kerala so in both
48:21ways uh um the the when Peter
48:26consecrated additional metropolitans.
48:28was kind of a diminishing but also set
48:31up for us to have us a a way to forge
48:35our own path and having bishops now
48:37present in in in Malanka in car in India
48:40to be able to uh fully govern and to be
48:44independent because now we have other
48:45bishops we don't need they're not
48:46waiting for more bishops to come from
48:48anywhere else we have them all now in in
48:50uh in Carerala in church
48:53>> so then at this time we have an
48:55administrative head and a spiritual head
48:57>> yeah And so could you talk a little bit
48:59more about at the same time with both of
49:03these sets we have the constitution
49:05being developed and formed. So that's
49:07when you asked about litigation now
49:08because there's division like I said and
49:10so there is the majority I don't want to
49:12say majority but there was there's a
49:14split there's people who side with
49:16>> uh modernday nations and like you know
49:19and the metropolitan those who side with
49:21the patriarch right and same and so
49:23they're going back and forth even the
49:25patriarch you know the the one who's
49:27consecrated with minesas marurulos he's
49:30selected the mala metropolitan and so
49:32he's governing that side independently
49:34of the of our of Mardianius and they're
49:37going back and forth people who are who
49:39side do we be on and so then then it has
49:42though we had a catholic even Paulus the
49:44first passes away kind of quickly we
49:47consecrate another one and and Margie
49:50the first and then after some time and
49:54then uh
49:56and then uh after sometimes like we need
49:59a a governing body because you know
50:00we're going all these court cases we
50:02have to say well what is our governing
50:04uh body like you know what what's our uh
50:06document to guide us and then we became
50:08hey we should have a constitution a
50:10governing document to make to show us
50:12that we we have a a setup to properly
50:16and um effectively and transparently
50:20guide our church right and so then the
50:22movement comes hey we need a need a uh
50:24constitution
50:25>> so what were the big ticket items in
50:27this constitution
50:28>> the biggest thing was uh how do we make
50:31decisions right and so that there's a
50:32monar association right that makes
50:36decision and that was always a practice
50:37we always had a lot of church there was
50:38always the the gathering of the the
50:41clergy with bishops and priests and the
50:43lay people making decisions for the
50:45community as a whole right that's a big
50:46thing secondly who is the head of the
50:48church you know what are who what is our
50:50identity as a church identity church is
50:52we are the moniker orthodox Syrian
50:54church uh we are a sirk speaking
50:56Christians that that were descend from
50:59the uh the the apostolic work of St.
51:02Thomas the Apostle right coming from
51:03AD52 that was important that we are not
51:06a new church that started because of any
51:08other missionary work outside of an
51:10apostul of Jesus Christ himself. So we
51:12are an apostolic church
51:14>> and then we are sustained by the uh
51:18being made uh we are sustained by being
51:19part of the uh Syriak family of churches
51:22which our church at that time now is now
51:24part of the Sierra Orthodox church right
51:26and the head of the Syriak Orthodox
51:28Church is the patriarch of Antioch which
51:30we said he is a spiritual head because
51:32that's that's how we're showing that we
51:33are maintaining an orthodox faith being
51:36being in communion and being in uh in uh
51:39in the same faith with the patri meaning
51:42because he represents the Syrian author
51:44church not him as just as a person but
51:46him having the uh authority and
51:49representing the faith and traditions of
51:51the Syrian church right which we feel
51:54we're we see ourselves as a part of but
51:57in addition to that we say that the head
51:58of the the church of Malankor is the uh
52:02Catholic of the east uh and the Malika
52:05metropolitan they are the ones that have
52:06the authority in ruling the church in
52:08India so then the constitution defines
52:10the cthos sees as a spiritual head. the
52:12Mel Metropolitan having uh
52:14administrative uh um authority and that
52:18that these two can be one person or
52:20separate people and at the time of the
52:22writing of the constitution it was
52:23separate people uh
52:26Martin the 6 was Malik Metropolitan but
52:29also there was we had Paul the first
52:31Grig the first and then comes Gri the
52:35second before at the time of the
52:37ratification of the uh of the
52:39constitution um and So um
52:45that but this is being developed because
52:46there's always this back and forth now
52:47going court cases who's in charge who's
52:49not right um and different patriarchs
52:51coming trying to exert authority and and
52:54then our side like you said not everyone
52:56accepted that this is the first time
52:57having catholic catholic in India so
53:00that even though people understood that
53:01that was part of the sak history was
53:04never it was never part of reality
53:06directly in Kerala or directly in
53:08Malanchar right of for the St. times
53:10Christians in Kerala. We understood that
53:12was part we were connected with them
53:15coming from the Persian Empire and then
53:17you know and that side but not directly.
53:18So then that took some time but after
53:23uh going back and forth and after the
53:25the one side you know our the monarch
53:27orthark side ratifying the 1934
53:30constitution it's now being recognized
53:34uh by governments right that's a
53:36unifying factor for all the meaning all
53:38the parishes in the minger church are
53:41being uh administrated by this governing
53:44docu document not just now by just
53:47bishops who are and priests who are
53:48submitting letters of of submission to a
53:51one person, but now submitting to a a a
53:55uh a document that is a um
53:59uh a clear document that guides and that
54:01is transparent of how things are
54:03decisions are made, right? Not just kind
54:05of you know after so many years you make
54:07another different decision or a
54:08different decision. There is a governing
54:10document that guides our church that's
54:12based in the traditions of the canon of
54:14the church. Because I forgot to mention
54:16uh we said that the hudoyo canon is the
54:17guiding document for the what is the
54:20faith and practice of our church that
54:22and that's a document between all the
54:24the sak church the uh both west the
54:27petro and our church hudo canon is a is
54:29a governing uh canon guide book of the
54:32cannons of the church uh for us
54:35particular more particularly in our in
54:36our uh sir church because that the hudo
54:38canon was developed more in the
54:40catholicate of the east more uh so then
54:43that that was They compiled all the
54:45decisions of the ecumenical councils and
54:47senates of how our our churches are
54:49being governed and and uh disciplined
54:53and practiced, right? And so we put that
54:56also as our guiding faith document or
54:59how the the guiding how we maintain our
55:01traditions and our faith practices. Uh
55:04and then what's been handed down, right?
55:06And so um by that 1934 gets passed and
55:10then after that Mardinius
55:13passes away and then the Cathol the
55:16current Catholic of the east at the time
55:18Gus the second now becomes as as
55:21Catholicus of the east and also now
55:23elected by the Malik association as
55:24governed by the uh constitution they
55:27choose him to be as the Malik
55:29metropolitan as well. So now it's the
55:31first time in his per one person, one
55:33bishop M as Catholic of the east and Ma
55:37metropolitan
55:38>> and this happened in 1934.
55:39>> Yeah. Or well the 1934 the constitution
55:42is ratified and then after Vatus passes
55:45away. He passed away in 34 but I think
55:47it's a 1935
55:49that the decision makes that he's both
55:52Monica Metropolitan and uh and uh
55:56and the Catholicus of the east. So
55:59essentially just a quick summary on all
56:02this to make sure I'm getting this
56:03correct.
56:04>> 1912 is when we established the
56:07spiritual head or the Catholicus of the
56:08east.
56:09>> Mhm.
56:09>> And before then we always always had an
56:11administrative head
56:13>> and that was only administrative head.
56:14Yeah.
56:14>> But that was the monetary
56:16>> and you said he's he still spirit as a
56:17bishop
56:18>> but but he didn't he didn't have full
56:20authority. Right. Yeah.
56:21>> Because we're still dependent on a a
56:23Syrian bishop or to continue to help
56:25support us. We need, you know, by Ken
56:27usually, you still have more than one
56:28bishop to coner the next one. So, we
56:30needed more bishops to help us to
56:31maintain and to continue to make sure
56:33we're remaining faithful to the uh faith
56:36of the Sierarch tradition. And then 1934
56:39is when they ratify the constitution and
56:42that and I think I want to say shortly
56:45after a couple years after St.
56:47passes away in which we have both the
56:50administrative head monk metropolitan
56:53and the spiritual head become one
56:55person.
56:56>> Yeah. And that's in Marcus Girius II
57:00>> because he's and it says the
57:01constitutions were 34 and I for not
57:04finding exactly but it also at the time
57:06when after he passes away then they have
57:08a meeting and I can't remember if that
57:10and the meeting I think is 34 but I
57:11think it it only becomes formal I think
57:13in 35 but you can say by 34 we ratify
57:17the constitution
57:18>> and so then now we have a governing
57:20document that's legal it has a legal
57:21standing and then we have um
57:26uh after veterinary
57:28passes away now the person the bishop
57:31who is a mal the catholicos is also now
57:33Malcolm metropolitan so we now from that
57:35point forward is now in the same per and
57:37one bishop is invested the title of
57:39catholic catholicos and malc
57:41metropolitan so he has both spiritual
57:43and administrative uh authority
57:46responsibility
57:47>> correct me if I'm wrong but while s
57:49while saint datas was alive um when he
57:52was um trying to determine the best way
57:56to establish autosuffley within the um
58:00Malancharo church. Um did he ever
58:02inquire about joining the Roman Catholic
58:06Church?
58:06>> Okay, that's a good question. You know
58:07and that's you know that's kind of a a
58:09side thing you know when all these
58:10things were happening you know there's
58:13always discussions and so even even
58:15amongst us it wasn't like we were having
58:17parallel always separate meet you know
58:19like one side in the Catholica side and
58:21the patriarch side they were still
58:22trying to meet together and so then they
58:24were trying to say what what can we do
58:25to uh resolve it and so one of the one
58:28of our the bishops at the time uh
58:31Marvanos uh was entrusted by the the
58:33church at the time to say you know what
58:35why don't we maybe ask the the Catholic
58:37Church in you know a independent
58:39mediator to kind of mediate and help
58:41resolve our differences between the two
58:44sides of the monk church because right
58:45now it's still just even though we had a
58:47a holocaust and there was just a mal
58:49metropolitan
58:51rival Malik Malach Metropolitan on both
58:53sides they still see each see each other
58:55as one church right they were still
58:57seeing each other other as brothers
58:59sisters just having a really big dispute
59:01right so what can we do to resolve it so
59:03said maybe you know even though we had
59:05maybe not the best of histories of the
59:07Catholic Church, but at least they they
59:08are still present. They are another
59:10Christian church. Maybe they can help us
59:12mediate uh the differences and we could
59:15make come in union. Right? So the
59:17history tells us that Marwanos was sent
59:20to Rome with a with a hope of finding
59:23the pope to um be a mediator, send
59:25mediators to resolve a situation. But
59:28what what what was ended up happening
59:30was in the end you know just you know
59:32not to go into all the specifics but in
59:35the end it was the resolution for the
59:37the Roman side was hey you know to solve
59:39your issues you know the the pope of
59:41Rome is what the is the universal head
59:42of the church as they understood it if
59:44you all just come under us then you
59:46don't have to worry about the patriarch
59:47anymore that we'll help you maintain
59:49your uh independence but you just have
59:52to submit to our authority so and so for
59:54bar he said you know what you know all
59:57is becoming that might make a better
59:58deal if they give us our authority and
1:00:00allow us to keep our practices because
1:00:02you know at the cross the one of the big
1:00:04issues was they were trying to latinize
1:00:06or make us more latinized at that point
1:00:09and so that's what our church people
1:00:10were very much the church among the St.
1:00:12towns were very much opposed to like a
1:00:14lot of them. Um but Bar was able to get
1:00:17from the pope at that time, hey you can
1:00:20still keep your Surk identity because
1:00:23you know by that time also by the 1930s
1:00:25the Catholic churches has now has many
1:00:28um uh eastern right churches joined with
1:00:31them allowing them to keep even within
1:00:33the Syriak churches in in in the Ottoman
1:00:36Empire there's a group of Catholics who
1:00:38are who are Sriak speaking and Syriak
1:00:40worshiping who are also now with the uh
1:00:43the pope you can be like them. He goes,
1:00:46"Okay, that's a great idea." And so the
1:00:48Marvas comes back and say, "Hey, we are
1:00:50the pope is saying the resolution is we
1:00:52can maintain and keep our Sierra
1:00:54identity, but uh uh accept the authority
1:00:57of the pope." And they were like the
1:00:59majority of our church that the that
1:01:00said they're saying, "Hey, that's not we
1:01:02already, you know, at the cross we said
1:01:04we're not wanting to be under Roman
1:01:05authority. We want to keep our sacred
1:01:07identity. We appreciate the sir identity
1:01:10um uh concession but we don't we don't
1:01:13want to be again under Catholic rule but
1:01:16then Marv said he already worked so hard
1:01:17and he felt that was the best way to
1:01:19unify so then he slips away and then
1:01:22that we started saying you know uh and
1:01:24then
1:01:24>> but it was him with but it was him with
1:01:26a group of nuns and like a mons monks
1:01:29there was there was a mon because Marvis
1:01:31was part of he you know had a ashram or
1:01:34monastery that that he was a part of and
1:01:36many of those monks
1:01:38uh and those monastics went with him and
1:01:40and lay people too, right? It was at
1:01:42first they're a smaller number but they
1:01:44slowly grew, right? And so now they're
1:01:46one of the uh the uh eastern rights of
1:01:49the Catholic Church to this day, right?
1:01:51um they they're not so large uh compared
1:01:54to the other Catholic right you know the
1:01:56eastern rights or as large compared to
1:01:58the other uh Catholic churches like the
1:02:00sur malabar or the moren right or I
1:02:03think even the the malard you know both
1:02:05us Jacobite Orthodox and yakabas
1:02:07churches but they're still sizable group
1:02:10and they're they're there they're still
1:02:11to this day but
1:02:12>> and this is where we this is where the
1:02:15malanchar's perspective of the cereal
1:02:18church started
1:02:18>> right and so that's just just that's
1:02:20just another branch They're the latest
1:02:21branch really to kind of branch off
1:02:23>> um uh from the the the the root of the M
1:02:27the the St. Thomas Christians in K in
1:02:29Malanka. Right.
1:02:30>> So kind of moving back towards the
1:02:32Malanka Orthodox Church. Uh when did the
1:02:35Syriak Orthodox Church recognize the
1:02:37Malanka Orthodox Church autophily? So we
1:02:40look at the political reality of just
1:02:42India in general like you know all this
1:02:44independence now movement is moving
1:02:46within India to you know to be
1:02:48independent from the British Empire the
1:02:50same movement is happening in our church
1:02:52right and so we see the you know from
1:02:54the and all the world world one and two
1:02:56is happening so all these things are
1:02:57happening in the world politically and
1:02:59so even the in our Christian church and
1:03:01the monkard church in uh in India we're
1:03:05having a our own kind of issue like a
1:03:07similar kind of divide Right? So that
1:03:10there's a divide of the mala church
1:03:11between the those who side with the
1:03:12patriarch, those who side with the mala
1:03:14metropolitan. Right? And so only until
1:03:17after the writing of the 1934
1:03:18constitution, now we have a governing
1:03:19document that so when we start going
1:03:21through these all these different court
1:03:22cases, now there's a governing document
1:03:24that's that's where trying to say that
1:03:25we should all be abiding abiding by that
1:03:28that uh uh uh writes out you know
1:03:32clearly you know that gives uh the the
1:03:35basis for how we govern ourselves right
1:03:37you know what what's the faith document
1:03:39you know what's our tradition from all
1:03:41those things right so once we get to
1:03:441958 Right. So after India's
1:03:46independence and after we now we have a
1:03:48our own Indian courts you know all of
1:03:50our different back and forth with the
1:03:52between the two different sides are
1:03:54facts in the Malikar church um you know
1:03:57we reaches from the lower court cases to
1:03:59the state court cases now to the high
1:04:01court you know both sides winning and
1:04:02losing in different levels when it gets
1:04:04to the high court now it says that
1:04:06there's only there's only one church the
1:04:08Mala Malikar church under the Malika
1:04:10metropolitan right and under and then at
1:04:12the guiding document is
1:04:141934 constitution or as the press
1:04:16that'll be the guiding document because
1:04:18it steps it rules it it defines right
1:04:21and writes out all the things that makes
1:04:23us who we are identifies who we are
1:04:24right it defines who the CM pat is you
1:04:26know what our church is named uh how we
1:04:30govern as a so as a church as a whole
1:04:32how dasis administer parishes administer
1:04:35all those things and so by that time by
1:04:371958 after all this I said you know what
1:04:40can we're that that that decision comes
1:04:42both sides reconcile. Even the patriarch
1:04:45of Ant at that time his patriarch uh
1:04:47Jacob or Jacob III comes and accepts
1:04:50that ruling and that on our side uh
1:04:53Basilus Basilios Gergis II is the
1:04:56Catholicos and Malcolm Metropolitan as
1:04:58reconciliation. They they they submit
1:05:01you know references of reconciliation
1:05:03right now we reconcile recognize each
1:05:05other as one church right as Maliker
1:05:08church is one church we are and that our
1:05:11relationship with the Syrian church is
1:05:12guided by the 1934
1:05:14constitution not by anything else the
1:05:16patriarch can't just say I'm in charge
1:05:18it's he's he is governed also by the
1:05:201934 constitution just like the
1:05:22patriarch is governed by the the you
1:05:24know at least previously when the
1:05:26Ottoman Empire was still functioning
1:05:28before 1950 uh he was governed by the
1:05:31the government of the Ottoman Empire in
1:05:34India. He's governed by the 19th or 1934
1:05:37constitution. He has abiding abide by
1:05:39it. So much so that it's uh formalized
1:05:42in the 1960s when Garis uh the second uh
1:05:45Baba passes away and we elect a ba to be
1:05:50the the successor. Uh patriot Jakob the
1:05:54third comes as per the constitution. We
1:05:56invited because he is the uh recognized
1:05:58patriarch of the ant that's in communion
1:06:00with us. We call him to come and to lead
1:06:03the services to consecrate uh Timoth
1:06:06Martios as Basilios Auggan the first as
1:06:10our the Catholicos and Maalatin. He is
1:06:13invited because we get that respect to
1:06:15him as as guided by our our faith
1:06:18juggments, the traditions as now the
1:06:20church is upholding but also by the 19th
1:06:22or 1934 constitution and that shows that
1:06:25that formalizes the unity because it's
1:06:28just letters exchanged back and forth
1:06:29right but once the patriarch is formally
1:06:31coming to consecrate our Catholicos and
1:06:35uh and Malik metropolitan then we find
1:06:37the the unity. So within this split
1:06:41between those who sided with the
1:06:44patriarch and those who sided with the
1:06:45Catholicos
1:06:47um were we still ever valid because we
1:06:50were never
1:06:52recognized as like our auto was never
1:06:54recognized properly
1:06:55>> or were we invalid I'll say this there
1:06:58was always dispute how how
1:07:00uh valid was a the catholicus catholic
1:07:03right but never was a dispute about who
1:07:05was Malika metropolitan because vati was
1:07:08the duly elected one
1:07:09>> even though he was deposed by the
1:07:11patriarch Abdullah at that time because
1:07:12he wouldn't submit a letter of uh
1:07:14submission to him the majority still
1:07:16recognized that he was the one elected
1:07:18and selected by the association um and
1:07:21so everyone recog he should be the
1:07:23leader so and he was already consecrated
1:07:24metropolitan uh it was just that the the
1:07:26patriarch wouldn't give him the title as
1:07:28moniker metropolitan but then they said
1:07:30the people the one who's recognizing
1:07:31because and saying that he is the one
1:07:34that we have he is the bishop we have
1:07:36chosen to be the leader for our church
1:07:38Right. So he is functioning under that
1:07:40even the the the a lot of the legal
1:07:42cases I've won never uh more times than
1:07:46not recognize him as the metropolitan.
1:07:48And that's he's guiding the church even
1:07:50the different catholic uh catholicoses
1:07:52that were uh uh consecrated during that
1:07:54time of his uh time as the Malika
1:07:56metropolitan but he was governing up to
1:07:58the point of of of helping uh write the
1:08:01constitution until his passing and then
1:08:04when his successor comes you know
1:08:06Givizava or Gigi's second Baba comes um
1:08:11he is given the you know he takes on the
1:08:14role of Bal Metropolitan by the election
1:08:15the selection of the association And
1:08:17that's also accepted by the government,
1:08:19right?
1:08:19>> But then what matters more the admin the
1:08:22administrative head or the spiritual
1:08:23head? Wouldn't the spiritual head have
1:08:25more relevance because it's the actual
1:08:29head of the church?
1:08:30>> Well, no. See, that's that's two
1:08:31different things. We'll say he is head
1:08:32of a church, but spiritual authority
1:08:34means upholding the faith and
1:08:36traditions, right? Administrator has
1:08:38like who's actually governing all the
1:08:39things. So, from the very beginning, uh
1:08:42we know or not from we see from from
1:08:45early on, I'll say that right. We see
1:08:47that the there was always the
1:08:49understanding that the there was the the
1:08:51clergy of in India who are governing the
1:08:54church right under the uh uh uh we can
1:08:57say previously under the uh spiritual
1:09:02direction of the the Syrian you know the
1:09:04the you know the be from Persia or from
1:09:06Syria under their uh supervision but it
1:09:09was administered directly by the these
1:09:11uh Indian clergy right living there
1:09:13right the Syrian clergy the spirituality
1:09:16helped make sure that we're maintaining
1:09:18the the true faith and maintaining this
1:09:19the practice of the sak lurggical
1:09:22tradition but administering to the needs
1:09:24of the people was by the clergy in India
1:09:26right and so even in the church as a
1:09:29whole like when you don't just outside
1:09:30of Kerala or outside of the bangar
1:09:32church you know even bishops and
1:09:34patriarchs understood you know when you
1:09:36look at canon law and in the early
1:09:37church you know if the people were not
1:09:39with them or did not recognize them they
1:09:41would not be considered as the they they
1:09:43would lose their their their standing
1:09:45Right? Because it's not just the the the
1:09:49bishops or dictators because they could
1:09:51also make this mistake. That's why we
1:09:52see a different many different uh
1:09:54ecumenical councils that bishops and
1:09:56patriarchs are being deposed because
1:09:57they have left or changed or altered the
1:10:01orthodox or the the uh the Christian
1:10:04faith right as as understood by the
1:10:06church as a whole. So having the uh uh
1:10:10the um the the support of the people who
1:10:15are in who are who are maintaining the
1:10:18true faith is also important. So there's
1:10:19always a balance of it's not just a
1:10:22dictatorship. Bishops aren't dictators
1:10:23just ruling over people though many
1:10:25times it feels like that even to this
1:10:26day that they just kind of dictate but
1:10:28we the people uh through uh this uh the
1:10:32the the the
1:10:34church we have the association by the
1:10:36representatives of all the the church
1:10:37representatives coming together and
1:10:39electing and selecting candidates for
1:10:42bishops and to be chosen and to be
1:10:44consecrated bishops that's and making
1:10:45sure they're maintaining that same
1:10:46faith. That's what we're maintaining
1:10:48that balance and so when we the the
1:10:51church feels that that something a
1:10:53bishop or or a decision is going out of
1:10:55balance they make that in decision it's
1:10:57not just one person and that was the
1:10:58biggest problem when the patriarch
1:11:00Abdullah came it was one person decision
1:11:02was without the hearing of the majority
1:11:04of the people right and so that's why we
1:11:07said that was the biggest difference
1:11:08it's not that
1:11:09>> the people can't be wrong but at the
1:11:10same time you can't just be one person
1:11:11making just a decision that see that
1:11:14that goes against previous
1:11:15understandings of what the the spirit of
1:11:17the the of the
1:11:21of the church is right you know it's not
1:11:22about just making people full underline
1:11:26under dictator but uh spiritually
1:11:28nourishing but also having the
1:11:30practicality of of guiding right so the
1:11:33practical part of guiding the church is
1:11:35having local leaders guide the church
1:11:37not to say that we don't have there
1:11:38hasn't been instances where uh
1:11:40patriarchs from even all the churches
1:11:42would provide guidance to the US a
1:11:44daughter church and other in our remote
1:11:46places but knowing that after so many
1:11:49centuries we saw that the church now was
1:11:50growing and like I said we can also see
1:11:53just on the outside of church but
1:11:54politically we start seeing even in
1:11:56India being under British rule for so
1:11:59many like uh you know now over 200 years
1:12:02by that time or over 200 years uh the
1:12:05people in India also understand hey we
1:12:07are we have been a people that have
1:12:09always had a an ancient heritage and we
1:12:12as understood that we had ancient
1:12:14heritage before being under any kind of
1:12:16Syrian patriarch or Syrian bishops even
1:12:18St. Thomas the apostle came that's
1:12:20before any kind of patriarchets or any
1:12:22kind of uh ecumenical councils or of
1:12:26those the the formalization of church
1:12:28rule happened there was already the
1:12:30apostolic beginnings were there right so
1:12:32we have a history to show that we have a
1:12:35um uh to uh to uh fall back on or
1:12:39history to to look back to I should say
1:12:41not fall back on but to look back to so
1:12:43that we said that we have be just like
1:12:45every other church though we've needed
1:12:47more support compared to other choices
1:12:49you know from our sister churches but
1:12:51doesn't uh negate the histo apostolic uh
1:12:55beginnings of our church right so then
1:12:57every apostolic church even if it uh uh
1:13:00was dependent or not always grew and
1:13:04that we see that through many other also
1:13:05all other churches who are either under
1:13:07one of the patriarchs of Antioch
1:13:09Alexandria Constantinople or even Rome
1:13:12or not Rome but that's always Catholic
1:13:14but those are in Jerusalem these other
1:13:16smaller other national churches come by
1:13:18but after you know not necessarily
1:13:21freely giving them autofily but after
1:13:23recognizing him they have grown to be
1:13:25you know there was always churches
1:13:26strong there there was bishops that are
1:13:27strong there metropolis strong there but
1:13:29then they grew to be a patriarch right
1:13:32and so it even being as ancient as the
1:13:34saint as the St. Thomas tradition,
1:13:36right? And so that but sometime it took
1:13:38some time to grow. So by that time of
1:13:39the the um the beginning of the 20th
1:13:43century, the 1920s and 30s, it was that
1:13:46time the church say now we need to be uh
1:13:48fully uh independent. So that that began
1:13:51in 1912 and became formalized by the
1:13:541934 constitution and the reconciliation
1:13:561958 and by that time the patriarch
1:13:59recognizes it and then consecrates all
1:14:00get involved with it by the the 60s.
1:14:03That's the showing that recognizing that
1:14:05that we were the the path that we were
1:14:08on solidified our independence.
1:14:11>> So we see that from the 1950s to the
1:14:141970s there was unity between uh both
1:14:18both sides and then we see the formation
1:14:22of the Jacifi church around mid1 1970s.
1:14:26So what what kind of um a problem kind
1:14:31of ignited that division? Again
1:14:34>> to be more clear I'll say it's not that
1:14:36they started there there was another big
1:14:37split in the Mikar church like we'll say
1:14:40more than anything else because then
1:14:41they went back to court cases um you
1:14:44know at the time there's a lot of
1:14:45political things that happened by that
1:14:46time of after a uh being consecrated and
1:14:50elevated as the Catholicos the church
1:14:52was going kind of strong for our unity
1:14:54was going strong but slowly started
1:14:55waning there's different political
1:14:57reasons and uh personal kind of
1:14:59disagreements between different churches
1:15:01and bishops but but it came to ahead
1:15:03whereas patriarch yakab the third who
1:15:06was the one who consecrated a batini uh
1:15:08started questioning how can a bath
1:15:10started writing as saying he's on the
1:15:13this under the seat or sea of St. Thomas
1:15:16you know so then negating our apostolic
1:15:18origins he even said that St. Thomas
1:15:20wasn't even an apostle with the uh just
1:15:23an evangelist because you know when you
1:15:25look in the gospel of St. John he wasn't
1:15:27present you know when Christ first
1:15:29resurrected and blew on the apostles he
1:15:30was there 18 years later and says and
1:15:32says my lord or my god right so he was
1:15:34trying to equate that St. Thomas was not
1:15:36even an apostle in a letter to the yog
1:15:39so that caused a big rift because even
1:15:41no other church has ever denied St.
1:15:43Thomas as a full apostle you know that
1:15:45account of him saying my lord my god is
1:15:46an important part to recognize the
1:15:48resurrected Christ right and we said
1:15:50that that's where when Christ allows him
1:15:52to touch him we said that his full
1:15:54apostilhip is uh is of recognized that
1:15:57when he meets him on the new Sunday as
1:16:00all churches celebrate the Sunday after
1:16:03celebrating resurrection or Easter
1:16:05Sunday and so but by the patriarch
1:16:07questioning
1:16:10us uh us kind of taking uh uh or
1:16:14highlighting being an apostolic church
1:16:17under St. Thomas you know he really cut
1:16:19down because from his perspective he's
1:16:21trying to say like no you're still a
1:16:22daughter of ours even though that he's
1:16:24saying he's agreeing he came and under
1:16:26the agreement of the 19334 constitution
1:16:28which kind of specifically highlight
1:16:30what his role was just being spiritual
1:16:32not uh anything else or any anything
1:16:34more than that I should say I should say
1:16:36now he's negating that he St. Thomas was
1:16:39even an apostle, right? So that was too
1:16:40far. So then now again we're going to
1:16:42these excommunications between both
1:16:45churches and then the patriarch uh uh
1:16:49consecrates a rival Catholicos no longer
1:16:51not just a mala metropolitan he
1:16:54consecrates a catholicos of the east for
1:16:56the for the the rival faction right so
1:16:59then there's two catholic you know
1:17:01there's the mala in our in the one in
1:17:04cortam like we said there was one uh or
1:17:06the mala metropolitan of agar and
1:17:09there's one that now
1:17:11uh from the patriarchal side.
1:17:13>> But wouldn't we call that? We wouldn't
1:17:14call that Catholicus at the east, right?
1:17:16We would call that
1:17:16>> Catholic. It's kind of when you look at
1:17:18the history, it goes back and forth
1:17:19because the current uh uh Catholicus for
1:17:23the Jacobite side or what's you know the
1:17:24rival side or the other faction I don't
1:17:26say rival both of us would see each
1:17:28other as rivals but they only say now
1:17:29Catholicos of India. But I think the
1:17:31original Paul the uh um second Baba that
1:17:35that that that came up from that split
1:17:37in the 1970s I believe he was they said
1:17:40Catholicos of the east. Um uh but then
1:17:44it later became as Catholicos of India
1:17:47because after the palace that Paul
1:17:50second catholicos for the Jacobite side
1:17:53uh passed away they there was a long gap
1:17:55before they consecrated another one. So
1:17:57how do we balance um or how do we
1:17:59navigate through this tension as like on
1:18:03the local level we see a lot of tension
1:18:06between the Indian Orthodox Church and
1:18:08the Jacobite church. How do we navigate
1:18:09through that tension? So you know
1:18:11fortunately for us in America it's not
1:18:13so like so strong as like in certain
1:18:15places in Carerala because uh for the
1:18:18most part all of us like on the local
1:18:20level or the lay level most people get
1:18:22along. It's really on on the high level
1:18:24on the the bishops and the priests that
1:18:26really where you see a solid division.
1:18:28And I won't say so much as much as
1:18:29priests like priests we all get along
1:18:30like in a friendly way. But you know,
1:18:33but though we're all Orthodox because of
1:18:36the the excommunications on both sides,
1:18:40we're not allowed to freely worship
1:18:41together like we we should, right? And
1:18:44so uh on the local level as
1:18:47parishioners, as lay people, for the
1:18:49most part, I've seen most people get
1:18:50along, right? We invite each other to
1:18:52each other's baptisms and weddings and
1:18:54homes or prayer meetings. You know, if I
1:18:57ever been to like a prayer meeting at a
1:18:58house, you know, or you know, Orthodox
1:19:00or Yakabar or B, you know, what no one
1:19:03makes a div like, oh, says something,
1:19:05oh, why you here kind of thing like has
1:19:07a big deal or makes us think about it.
1:19:09But in certain places where we're still
1:19:11fighting for like properties and stuff,
1:19:12it it's like particularly in Northern
1:19:14Carerala, it is very horse and it's sad
1:19:17to see. Um, and a lot of that's a very
1:19:19personal kind of family kind of things.
1:19:21Lots of times all we can do is we pray
1:19:23that we see each other as brothers and
1:19:25sisters in Christ. um not to uh focus on
1:19:31uh the division which is hard to do but
1:19:34focus on the uh the commonality that we
1:19:36have but but a lot of it's tied to then
1:19:38who's in charge right that's in the end
1:19:40like who should be in charge of that
1:19:41those churches and those properties and
1:19:44whatever that's one where there's lot of
1:19:46strong tensions like we see online like
1:19:48current recently or from the past it's
1:19:51about who should be the right person to
1:19:53be worshiping celebrating kbana who's
1:19:55the right person to the the bishop and
1:19:56leading the church. Um the hope is that
1:20:00just like in previous decades when we
1:20:02had unity um and that you know and and
1:20:05the people who remember the unity are
1:20:07getting less and less that's like our
1:20:08grandparents and great-grandparents
1:20:10generation who could still remember the
1:20:11time of unity um uh and uh we should
1:20:16pray for it. One thing I'll say, one ane
1:20:18an anecdote I'll say is during those
1:20:201920s and 30s and leading to the union
1:20:23that happened in the 50s. One thing I
1:20:24did I forgot I didn't mention you know
1:20:26one of the big drivers for unity was
1:20:29from the youth that you know our current
1:20:32day MGCSM was started as a as a just as
1:20:35a co a student conference of like you
1:20:39know the you know what in India like the
1:20:41plus one plus one and plus two like the
1:20:43like pre-ol and college students meeting
1:20:46together to share their Christian faith
1:20:48and knowing that all this fighting
1:20:50amongst the the leadership was not was
1:20:53not beneficial icial to their growth and
1:20:55they were able to bring about a
1:20:58grassroot movement for unity. And so by
1:21:01the time that we get to the 30s, 40s and
1:21:0450s, those k those uh youth become
1:21:07adults and they are the ones who helped
1:21:09drive and bring up real unity, right?
1:21:12And so even a lot of them became priests
1:21:15and bishops. That's where there was a
1:21:16good amount of unity at that time but
1:21:18because of other factors that happened
1:21:20in the 70s and you know and not to say
1:21:22that they didn't want unity but that you
1:21:24know things happen right people are
1:21:25people right that's one thing that we
1:21:27take away from the history of we learn
1:21:29history of churches our history of of
1:21:31nations you know people we as people are
1:21:34very good about dividing
1:21:36>> but by the you know but you know our by
1:21:38our faith in Jesus Christ and our
1:21:40willingness to submit to humility allows
1:21:43us to work together right but maintain
1:21:45that's lacking right and so I think a
1:21:47big thing is to uh have the humility on
1:21:50on both sides to say that uh we're we're
1:21:53we both can be wrong you know wrong on a
1:21:55lot of things you know or we both can be
1:21:56right about a lot of certain things but
1:21:57same time be it it's but we also can be
1:22:00wrong it's not all about always being
1:22:01right or you know it's about what we
1:22:03could do together right
1:22:05>> so then how do we avoid I see this
1:22:07online a lot where because we don't have
1:22:10the same head we antagonize the other
1:22:13side how do we kind
1:22:16uh killed that habit
1:22:18>> and and I think just just from a on a
1:22:21personal level, right? When people don't
1:22:23focus on the leadership but focus on the
1:22:25shared uh faith and then and continue to
1:22:29cultivate the shared faith together, I
1:22:31think that could go a long way. Uh and
1:22:33showing that even at least like why are
1:22:35we fighting, right? Because I think
1:22:37that's because there's only so much you
1:22:38can do on a uh
1:22:41you can't make force someone to change
1:22:43their mind or their opinion, right? It's
1:22:45hard to, right? You can and that's to
1:22:46say you can't people's opinions can't
1:22:48change. But the the first thing just
1:22:50like we say like about uh evangelism you
1:22:53know when we see a lot of quotes of the
1:22:54early church fathers or early saint or
1:22:56saints of the church you know you know
1:22:58when we work on ourselves and and
1:23:00working mealy and can continuing to work
1:23:03on our salvation working as being as
1:23:05Christlike as we can be
1:23:08many around us will see Christ right
1:23:10it's not about just just telling and
1:23:12yelling and forcing telling our voicing
1:23:14or forcing our our uh the best of Jesus
1:23:18Christ to somebody it's us living it. So
1:23:20if we live our Orthodox Christian faith
1:23:23live our Christian our or our Christian
1:23:24faith as uh St. Thomas Christians of
1:23:27Malikra as Syrian Christians of the the
1:23:31Syriak worshiing Christians of India and
1:23:33now and now all many places around the
1:23:36world like here us here in America. If
1:23:39we can um work towards highlighting and
1:23:42growing and cultivating that common uh
1:23:45witness, I think that can go a long way
1:23:47in helping um
1:23:50uh move unity or moving towards peace
1:23:53and ultimate unity within our church in
1:23:55Malcra.
1:23:57>> This is our last and final question to
1:23:59end off our four-part series, right? And
1:24:02so we start from 8052. We go all the way
1:24:05to well 2026, right? And so how do we
1:24:10balance acumenism and the truth within
1:24:14our indie community because we all at
1:24:17the very beginning used to be one.
1:24:19>> It's great question. So I'm hoping like
1:24:21you know you know communical movement or
1:24:24ecumenism is both uh seen as good and
1:24:26bad right because ecumenism is
1:24:29highlighting that what we can do is
1:24:30together as a as as one body of Christ.
1:24:34But at the same time, many times you
1:24:35feel like you're having to uh give up
1:24:37one sense of your identity as Christian
1:24:39because we know all the different
1:24:40denominations have different uh
1:24:42interpretations or different
1:24:43understandings or different expressions
1:24:45of the Christian faith. And so they're
1:24:47not all the same, right? We all have
1:24:49Christ at the same. We have many many
1:24:51things in common, but there's certain
1:24:53things that divide us, right? So in the
1:24:55ecumenical movement, it's good to make
1:24:57sure that we're as St. Thomas Christian
1:24:59that's and particularly with us our
1:25:01church the Malankar church all those who
1:25:03come from the Malibar region be it
1:25:04Malibar or Malankar whatever however you
1:25:06want to title it because a lot of our
1:25:09um denominations within the St. times
1:25:12community either say Malibar or
1:25:13Malangara right
1:25:15um the key thing is saying that we have
1:25:17a shared uh and common uh foundation all
1:25:23the all Christians we all have the
1:25:24foundation in the gospel message as
1:25:27handed down by an apostle or a disciple
1:25:30or you know in later disciples of Jesus
1:25:33Christ right us particularly in Kerala
1:25:35in the Malankura we all have the the
1:25:38witness in common of St. Thomas coming
1:25:41and being as an apostolic uh uh an
1:25:45apostle of Jesus Christ being you know a
1:25:47high priest a bishop uh one who hands
1:25:49down the faith as given to directly by
1:25:52Christ a firsthand witness of Jesus
1:25:54Christ uh public ministry and his uh
1:25:58death resurrection um and ascension into
1:26:01heaven um we all have that in common now
1:26:05there are because of the different
1:26:06splits and branching or spl branching
1:26:08off as we highlighted during this
1:26:10four-part season series. I hope that we
1:26:13can see that we have so much in common
1:26:15and so that we can build together uh in
1:26:19our unity as uh Christians because you
1:26:22know like particularly us in India we're
1:26:24such a small minority of the the larger
1:26:26population in India right you know the
1:26:29billion people we make up we'll pay one
1:26:31two% all the Christians in India right
1:26:33and us in Kerala we if you just look in
1:26:35the Malar church which is now in present
1:26:37day Carerala I think it's like they say
1:26:39about like 20% and then you know like
1:26:41there's 30% or 20% uh and I think or I
1:26:46think 15 or not I think it's 12 to 20%
1:26:49um Christian then a good by size
1:26:52minority is Muslim and the majority is
1:26:53all Hindu uh and then we have the whole
1:26:55other the rest of the country right of
1:26:57India you know we we we have a shared uh
1:27:01and beautiful heritage to share uh that
1:27:04we can do in in an ecumenical way uh but
1:27:06also talk about our differences where do
1:27:09we think have things in common where do
1:27:11we things we can see that uh we can come
1:27:13back together particular for us at the
1:27:15Yakabai church. We for sure have
1:27:17everything a lot most things in common
1:27:20other than administration. So hopefully
1:27:21we pray that we can come together and
1:27:24then we highlighted you know with the uh
1:27:26um the Bartha church and even the
1:27:28Malabar independent Syrian church the
1:27:30third year church we have a lot of
1:27:32things in common maybe we can work
1:27:33towards unity with them and then same
1:27:36thing with the the the the certain ca
1:27:39Catholics both wanker right and sir
1:27:41malibar we have a lot of things in
1:27:42common maybe we can come together u
1:27:45maybe not fully because you know many
1:27:47years now in the woman church and I
1:27:48don't know what how that would be taken
1:27:50because you know they're they're also
1:27:51have outside uh of just India. But you
1:27:55know, we never know what could happen,
1:27:56right? Uh but at a minimum for sure we
1:27:59could all uh pray and serve together in
1:28:03in the mission field of uh serving the
1:28:06God's people or serving those who are
1:28:07less fortunate and then just continuing
1:28:11uh to build and like we see that in also
1:28:13in our lot of our college campuses here
1:28:15in America you know since you know you
1:28:17know we have campus ministries a lot of
1:28:19them have you know specific to
1:28:20denomination but at the same time many
1:28:22campuses have interdenomination
1:28:25uh ministries that help uh those who
1:28:27identify as Mallayali Christians can
1:28:29share together their faith. That's a
1:28:31good common strength to uh help us to
1:28:34you know navigate the the college years
1:28:37together right because we all share that
1:28:39being uh Indian Christians and Mallay
1:28:41Ali uh even though different
1:28:43denomination denominations but shared
1:28:45shared values right and that's the main
1:28:47thing that uh hopefully we can continue
1:28:49to build cultivate and pray for um a
1:28:54unified witness be it for complete unity
1:28:56but at a minimum a unifi a a a unified
1:29:00witness
1:29:00of the Christian teachings.
1:29:03>> So, first I'd like to thank you for
1:29:05coming, giving us insights to roughly
1:29:082,000 years of Indian church history.
1:29:11And before we end, could you end us off
1:29:12with prayer?
1:29:13>> Uh, let me just conclude by just saying
1:29:15before I pray, just you know, there's so
1:29:16much to say see in history. Um, I know I
1:29:19didn't get touched every single point.
1:29:21Um nothing was said to be um dismissive
1:29:25of any uh specific point in history or
1:29:27any denomination or any group of people.
1:29:30Uh but I hope and pray that this was
1:29:32helpful for many people who want to
1:29:33learn history. There were so many, you
1:29:35know, 2,000 plus years of of history.
1:29:38You know, I try to get as much as I can
1:29:40in the limited time we have in
1:29:42recording. Uh but I'm always willing to
1:29:45uh hear comments uh to discuss uh about
1:29:48more about the church. Those of you who
1:29:50love history, just, you know, I love
1:29:51talking about history. It's it's a great
1:29:53point of uh witness about our human
1:29:56condition or not human condition, but
1:29:57our human and common witness. And I pray
1:30:00that you pray for all of us and pray for
1:30:02myself and our church and pray for a
1:30:05continued growth uh of the church so
1:30:08that we can continue to work together uh
1:30:11uh pray together and then also to um uh
1:30:16to be able to uh build uh strong
1:30:19faithful communities together wherever
1:30:21we might be. With that being said, let's
1:30:22close in prayer.
1:30:26body of our Christ our God as we come to
1:30:28you concluding our series on our the
1:30:32church as it grew uh in India
1:30:35particularly by the evangelical work and
1:30:38the missionary work of your apostle St.
1:30:40Thomas
1:30:43and by the continued uh building of the
1:30:46church of uh the disciples who took that
1:30:49faith from uh St. Thomas as he witnessed
1:30:52being a first hand eyewitness of your
1:30:55gospel message, your death and
1:30:57resurrection so that we can continue to
1:30:58this day praise and adore your holy name
1:31:01and glorify you. May you help us to
1:31:03continue to study your word, study uh
1:31:06your church and our faith and learn the
1:31:09lessons of history to continue to uh be
1:31:12faithful servants a and continued uh
1:31:15laborers in the church. Just as we see
1:31:18so many people before I was learning
1:31:19history, all of our church fathers and
1:31:22mothers are both of uh the clergy and
1:31:25the lay people who work tireous tously
1:31:29uh in serving and building the church.
1:31:31May you help us through our studies and
1:31:33through these videos. Continue to work
1:31:36in building up and growing ourselves so
1:31:38that we can uh make sure that we are
1:31:41doing our part and making uh and making
1:31:44the church to be uh seen, to be known,
1:31:47and to be lived uh faithfully as you
1:31:50give us the strength to be. May we
1:31:51continue to bless all of our loved ones,
1:31:53our parents, brothers and sisters, all
1:31:56those who are sick and are suffering,
1:31:58those who are without, and for all of
1:32:00our loved ones both near and far, the
1:32:01living departed to continually to serve
1:32:04and glorify you and and to walk in your
1:32:07ways both now and always and forever and
1:32:09ever. Amen.
1:32:18>> [music]

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