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InCHIP Lecture: All It Takes is One Block: Legacy of Redlining in Lethally Surveilled Neighborhoods — Transcript

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0:09great thanks josh good afternoon
0:11everyone i want to welcome you to the
0:1319th annual in chip lecture series my
0:16name is dr tricia leahy and i'm the
0:17interim director of in-chip we have a
0:20very exciting lineup of esteemed
0:21speakers this year and today to kick off
0:24our lecture series we have the privilege
0:26of welcoming dr ali sewell
0:29dr tabler will be introducing ali and
0:31their important work
0:36so it is my honor to introduce our
0:38speaker for today
0:40dr ali sewell is associate professor of
0:43sociology at emory university and
0:45founder and director of the race and
0:47policing project advancing quantitative
0:50approaches to racism studies they assess
0:52empirical links between the political
0:54economy of race and racial health care
0:56disparities using policing and housing
0:58policy data
1:00published in a wide array of
1:02sociological and interdisciplinary
1:04outlets their research garnered support
1:06and recognition from the national
1:07institutes of health the ford foundation
1:09the national science foundation the
1:12society for the study of social problems
1:14the
1:15baden-wurttemberg foundation and the
1:17inter university consortium of political
1:19and social research planned parenthood
1:22named them the future innovator and
1:24visionary who will transform black
1:26communities they receive their phd in
1:28m.a in sociology from indiana university
1:31with a minor in social science research
1:33methods and their ba summa [ __ ] laude
1:36in sociology from the university of
1:39florida with a minor in women's studies
1:42so again it's my privilege to introduce
1:44our speaker i do want to make a note
1:46that please do hold your questions until
1:48the end at which time you may be able to
1:51unmute yourself and speak or use the
1:54raise hand function or
1:56utilize the chat box so
1:59help me welcome dr ali sewell
2:02hey hey hey hey i'm going to go ahead
2:04and get this uh
2:06this screen shared i really appreciate
2:08being here um it was exciting to to see
2:11what you all doing and uh try to think
2:14about the ways in which um
2:16um that we can connect i see this thing
2:19is still doing that
2:20weird uh
2:26with the with the with the hand with the
2:28do you remember what i was saying before
2:31um ah got it boom
2:34i was doing this weird you know
2:36um
2:37i would say it's like kind of uh your
2:39your your your guardian angel you know
2:41kind of doing the
2:42head bob but
2:44um i wanted to make some links between
2:46frankly a lot of the work i've been
2:47doing which is uh primarily around just
2:49neighborhood effects on health and and
2:52linking to
2:53i think you know related lines of
2:55research but also i can recognize maybe
2:57um some folks would want to understand
2:59more about it so one thing we have the
3:01question of of police violence um and
3:04we'll focus today on lethal violence and
3:06we have also the question of this kind
3:08of long-standing seated
3:10um uh structural racism and i actually
3:12wouldn't use strong structure racism i
3:14use the term systemic racism
3:17uh to talk about how even perhaps the
3:19things that are happening right now like
3:20police violence if you're paying
3:21attention to are actually part of a
3:23longer term uh tradition and pattern of
3:26systems of domination along the lines of
3:29racism
3:31so it's not just that we have people who
3:33were people of color or black and white
3:35next folks who were you know being
3:36violated and so on and so forth is that
3:38we have these places where you know it's
3:41all in just because someone is in this
3:44place they are subjected to um the
3:46questions of violence that we're talking
3:49about
3:49so how i think about this is primarily
3:51in in three different models we're
3:53talking about how the conversation
3:55around police violence has changed
3:57across time uh we now understand the
3:59term police violence we're now moving
4:00towards more of a trauma model uh where
4:03we want to think about killing itself as
4:05a public health event a killing we know
4:07is a public health event but a killing
4:08by a police is different it's a
4:10state-sanctioned violence in some sense
4:12um and and that trauma model comes
4:14directly from our kind of a
4:15psychological approach that approach
4:17that even contact with the police benign
4:20contact whether you know maybe you
4:22experience it or someone you know
4:23experienced it or
4:25in these kinds of places these things
4:26happen hyper vigilance it's kind of
4:29stressful and it's whether it's
4:31the stress i have today or this you know
4:34build up that's happening because i know
4:35that this environment this block is you
4:37know and some people could say it's hot
4:38um that's the issue because it's going
4:40to change everyone's kind of human
4:42development uh perspective
4:44um but what we don't talk about so much
4:46is the the
4:47reality in public health the ways in
4:49which we engage police is through the
4:51lens of crime prevention um as well as
4:54crime control so if something ever
4:56happens to you
4:57you're supposed to call 9-1-1 who shows
4:59up
5:00and there's a lot of the conversations
5:01that we're having right now but that
5:02organizational model of police brutality
5:05um from the perspective it is the police
5:07who are most likely going to be the
5:09first responders to a crime against an
5:11individual which places them perhaps
5:14possibly as a protector
5:16and they also can be a perpetrator
5:18depending upon where you you sit in this
5:20thing
5:21so what's happened over the last i would
5:23say 20 years it's kind of hard to say it
5:25is now like man it's been this long but
5:27in the last 20 years uh we've been able
5:29to identify using public records um we
5:32know the work records uh that are coming
5:34out stop questioning frisk laws and so
5:36on and so forth journalists you know uh
5:38creating things and so on and so forth i
5:40mean we're using everything we can to
5:42figure out how this question of of crime
5:44prevention happens on one hand we can
5:46identify that after 2000 we've had a
5:49steady decline in assaults
5:51but if you were to take these or
5:52hospital records from one of my
5:54colleagues justin truman if you were to
5:55just take the assaults that are related
5:57to contact with the police they're
5:59actually increasing and particularly
6:01towards uh men there's someone knocking
6:03and i'm unfortunately not going to be
6:05able to stop to talk to them but you may
6:07hear something
6:08um
6:10this data that we see here is important
6:12to understand because it represents an
6:14arc and it's an arc that you know
6:17changes how the police are viewed as
6:20caretakers as someone that are going to
6:22protect folks in 1999 in the beginning
6:25of the of the year um new york police
6:27department uh came into uh where they
6:30were looking for someone and they they
6:32thought this guy i would do dialogue was
6:34the person and he was coming out of his
6:36his apartment um complex or
6:39actually he literally was kind of coming
6:40out of it and they told him put his
6:42hands up and so on and so forth he
6:43reaches for his pocket he dies this is
6:4541 shots so i came out of college in
6:482001 so when i thought when i came out
6:50into this new world of what we were
6:52supposed to do we got free this is what
6:54i heard i heard in the 41 shots imma do
6:56dialogue 41 shots in 1999
6:59the likelihood of being able to tell
7:02what the load of shots would that could
7:05have been fired in the place where
7:06amidou diallo was
7:08was very low these records were not
7:10released they were part of some you know
7:12this type of unit or that type of unit
7:14that was trying to control drugs or fire
7:16or find firearms and so on and so forth
7:18but because of something like this
7:21we begin to be and i'm saying we as a
7:23public as a concerned citizen begin to
7:25think about
7:26perhaps maybe the police are part of the
7:29problem but we don't even know how big
7:31the problem is
7:32so one way we do that because we're
7:34scientists and maybe other things is we
7:36you know try to get records and at that
7:38time the records that the new york
7:39police department were using were
7:40basically they were secretive um so
7:42there was a lawsuit not from abu
7:44diable's family but from folks who had
7:46experienced things like that
7:47that was fouled uh in in 2000 2001 and
7:51it basically said hey we want to know
7:52what's going on and the result of that
7:55um
7:56of that um lawsuit is documented about
7:59it this is the center for constitutional
8:01rights um the new york civil liberties
8:03union um was that we were able to get
8:05numbers like this so we know starting in
8:07about 2002 that there was an increase
8:10was it there wasn't were people really
8:12reporting or not you could have a
8:13conversation about it but there was a
8:15number of reported stops
8:17this is as little as you got out the car
8:20you said hey i need to talk to you this
8:22is what happens in the new york police
8:24department it had exponential increase
8:27if you add up all the numbers of stocks
8:29between 2002 and 2011 or so i mean you
8:32have over almost a million stops it's a
8:34lot of
8:35a lot of stops
8:37there was a second lawsuit that was that
8:39was filed um in about 2006 or so
8:42that said hey i now you thank you for
8:44the records but can you can you release
8:48the reports and these reports are going
8:50to tell us by neighborhood by race by
8:52whatever what you're doing and what
8:53you're doing about the inequities and
8:56that is really what has led to um in
8:582014 which was the fall of stop question
9:01and frisk in new york city or the state
9:03of new york you can say
9:04the argument that was made uh in this
9:07court fouling was that
9:09we're not going to have a conversation
9:10about whether stop question of risk is
9:12or is not legal but the way you're
9:13implementing it by looking for
9:15essentially stops in black and brown
9:17communities in poor communities by
9:19definition you're going to find more
9:20black and brown people and more poor
9:22people
9:23okay so if by definition of how you are
9:25um
9:27applying the law
9:28you're gonna have these problems then
9:30maybe it's the implementation of the law
9:32that is a structural a structural issue
9:34and so in that way we were able to get
9:36um
9:37uh stop question and frisk uh
9:40uh decriminalize or criminalize in some
9:42sense um since then this is about 2013
9:44to 20 this is actually very recent date
9:46of 2020
9:47um there have been less than 50 000
9:49stops reported in new york city now if
9:50you're in new york city you kind of
9:51start worrying about 50 000 stops and i
9:54don't know
9:54you might even see one of those like per
9:56year right so you have to worry about
9:58the data in some sense but before the
9:59lawsuit before the police basically said
10:02we're going to do a you know a stop
10:03we're gonna stop um
10:05um reporting data we know that there was
10:08a high load in new york city um and the
10:10question we have to ask is
10:12you know listen we had we we had this
10:14essentially this momentous event 1999
10:17uh we had a
10:18kind of a public outcry of it that
10:20happened anti-brutality movements in new
10:22york city leading much of this and then
10:25we get this
10:26hey we're going to stop this we get a
10:28decision to get the data and then we're
10:31going to say you're not actually using
10:32the data properly
10:34so we're going to sue you again and in
10:36this last suit the florida all case in
10:38new york city from 2013 that was the one
10:40that stuck because it was the same
10:42question they're a bunch of folks they
10:44kind of look like they're all in certain
10:45kind of neighborhoods why are we
10:47stopping them
10:48just because they fit the description
10:51now we know unfortunately is that in the
10:52next summer this is august 12 2013
10:54within a year the new york police
10:56department department had committed one
10:57a very atrocious crime
10:59tomorrow garner um being choked by a
11:02police officer on camera on camera this
11:04is 2014. and so you have to ask the
11:06question
11:08so we have solved the problem with
11:09structural racism
11:11and we still have structural racism
11:13and what i might argue today is that the
11:15structural racism issue is far more than
11:17a person it's far more than i'm do
11:18dialogues far more than eric garner is
11:20actually even far more than a new york
11:21police department
11:23all right so this is kind of stuff i
11:25think about from the stress model we
11:26have contact itself as a stressor
11:28we have living in this climate of fear
11:30of hyper surveillance in an area is an
11:32ecological ecological stressor
11:35the reality is if you see someone
11:36stopped by the police if you think
11:38someone is in pro or they're having
11:40problems you're going to have a reaction
11:42even as an observer if you hear a baby
11:44cry you're like oh wait a minute we
11:45should do something about the baby
11:46here's some scream why are you doing
11:47that your brain activity is going you're
11:49maybe sweating you're thinking about
11:50things at a very minimum we call this
11:52psychophysiology and
11:54observers notice about video games so on
11:57and so forth we have the general
11:59question if you are in this kind of
12:00environment and you have to start
12:02thinking about how are you going to get
12:03through another 18 years think about a
12:05kid well you know i don't have that job
12:07yet i can't get out you actually start
12:09to develop some coping mechanisms that
12:11frankly perhaps is not working for you
12:13but this becomes your way of life this
12:15becomes a way of life for the people
12:16around you and so we have over time uh
12:19we call it the weathering process and we
12:21think about questions of allostatic load
12:22we think about questions of telomere
12:24lens we think about questions of
12:25information um is that we have coping
12:27mechanisms that are going to reduce um
12:29the quality of life and limit how long
12:32things live
12:33in people and things um and we have this
12:35thing of discrimination whether it is or
12:37is not real the perception of this
12:39itself is a problem the fact that you
12:41actually don't know what is actually
12:42happening
12:43that's even more of a problem so we look
12:45at this data this is objective data that
12:47the the police themselves provided to us
12:50we didn't make it up we didn't try to
12:51estimate it whatever this is new york
12:52police department permit with a a
12:55a kind of a schedule saying hey this is
12:57what i did so we know in new york city
12:59this is uh between this
13:01i think it's 2015 2020 uh
13:042016 2009 2013 period we have about 30
13:09stops per 100 residents in new york city
13:11we have about over half of those stops
13:14that are
13:15why am i having feedback
13:18i don't know am i still having feedback
13:22feedback i don't know um
13:25we have something's fine here are you
13:26i'm okay is this me then let me turn
13:28this down so i can't hear myself
13:31um about 54 stops involved risking a pat
13:33down of the body and about 20 percent of
13:36the stops involves the muscle force now
13:37use of force is 80 of nine i'll show you
13:40what they are um
13:42we have about six times more stops among
13:44black and latin next residents
13:47um in the united states city we have
13:49about 25 more
13:52stops for black and latino pedestrians
13:56pat downs and we have about 28 more in
13:58use of force now i'm going to focus on
14:00that right there
14:01what we know is that because of how we
14:04are kind of thinking about the block
14:06it's 10 blocks that means that 5 out of
14:0810 blocks you're going to see on any
14:10general neighborhood in new york city a
14:12stop and frisk
14:14but there's an additional block where
14:16you're gonna see it
14:18and what does that mean one extra block
14:19so you go from five to six it's the same
14:21thing two out of ten blocks in new york
14:23city
14:24trying to get from here to there for
14:26instance like a doctor's office you're
14:28gonna see
14:29you know something but if you get three
14:30out of ten
14:32then that's there's something going to
14:33go on and that that extra block is
14:34basically a standard deviation in these
14:36risk profiles at the neighbor
14:38neighborhood level
14:39reason why that matters is that the work
14:41i do actually shows that even if you
14:43have the extra block
14:44there are some things that are going to
14:45go on with you that perhaps if you
14:47showed up at the doctor's office after
14:49those 10 blocks from your house that you
14:51may be more likely to show these things
14:53as evidence
14:54of anything stress or some condition
14:56that you're experiencing or maybe you're
14:58just doing a physical for a year you're
15:00gonna be able to show it so for instance
15:01when use of force uh you have use of
15:04officer's hand placing a suspect on the
15:05ground against the wall drawing your
15:07weapon
15:08okay the use of batons handcuffs pepper
15:11sprays we've heard about all these
15:12things in the last couple of years any
15:14even one of those things counts as use
15:16of force so maybe you can consider this
15:18a kind of high burden of proof but the
15:20reality is there's many opportunities to
15:22get into this question that honestly you
15:24have to think about how much force it
15:26needs to be used for something to happen
15:28so we think about the folks that you can
15:29see here we think about the victims of
15:31police violence we definitely think
15:32about them when they are not here
15:34anymore so we have different kinds of
15:36folks around uh whether it's you know
15:38here we got oscar grant this is a train
15:40station officer so on and so forth we
15:42have women we have men we have kids we
15:44have older people we have the full gamut
15:46um but we never really think about that
15:48girl that's sitting down watching and
15:49growing up in a world like this and this
15:51is really what this this
15:53presentation and my work is about it's
15:55about the girl right so this girl lives
15:57this day and you know takes that ten
15:59blocks to go to the doctor's office and
16:00they have one additional block so the
16:02standard deviation increase in frisking
16:04they're nine percent more likely uh to
16:06indicate why they're saying something
16:08that my my health is not very good um
16:11they're 11 percent more likely to
16:12indicate some form of diabetes diagnosed
16:15uh 17 more likely to have been diagnosed
16:17with high blood pressure uh 15 more
16:19likely to be diagnosed or had some
16:21underlying uh asthma episode in the last
16:23year and this is a big one 22 more
16:26likely
16:27to be identified as obese
16:29so you can look at these things as just
16:31like things right but if you come in
16:33today's world like a covet all of these
16:36things definitely diabetes to overweight
16:37they're actually considered
16:38preconditions like pre-existing
16:40conditions so if you had any of these
16:42things
16:43on december 31 2019 you we're going to
16:46have a harder time dealing with these
16:48issues and these issues diabetes high
16:50blood pressure obesity as these are
16:52things that are going to coagulate in
16:54communities that are disadvantaged um
16:57and so we can think about
16:58is there is there an objective thing
17:00called life that just happens because
17:03you're good and you have diets and you
17:05have exercise and you have all these
17:06things or are there preconditions
17:09right there are preconditions of
17:10inequities um that are going to set the
17:12stage
17:13when you go into the doctor's office
17:14they're never going to tell you anything
17:16about um anything except blood is in
17:19blood bones and and and fat that's it
17:23they don't necessarily see all these
17:24preconditions of society they see
17:26different conditions of the body
17:28right but we know that the physical
17:30health measures we also know that
17:31psychological distress matters um it's
17:34more limited in hearing the question of
17:36hopelessness and um nervousness or
17:38worthlessness and you can think about a
17:39boy that would go to school and he's a
17:40little kind of shifty you know what
17:42happened the night before maybe there
17:43was no knocking warrant maybe there was
17:45just a lot of frisking in the
17:46neighborhood he looks like a problem you
17:48know he's nervous he doesn't have a kind
17:51of a clear idea of the future and
17:52frankly doesn't really think that people
17:54care about him that much
17:56this is what's going on right in these
17:58neighborhoods you have to also the
17:59question that you know the reality is
18:01because of how we understand police
18:03violence is happening or race and gender
18:06it it when it comes to psychological
18:07distress all right
18:09men are more likely to experience
18:11nervousness effortfulness and
18:12worthlessness as well as actually show
18:14indication of clinical signs of distress
18:18why is this not going forward okay
18:20we also know that some groups and even
18:22some groups that are kind of atypical so
18:24we know that blacks and latinos have
18:26more of a risk for blood pressure uh
18:29than the right counterparts um and it's
18:31different kinds of neighborhoods and
18:32different kinds of structures in some
18:33point of time i don't like to get too
18:34detailed into it but we do see these
18:37differences but one that's kind of weird
18:39is that you have a group that's less
18:40likely to be
18:42contacted by the police and they have
18:43the best health if you look at all the
18:45terrain groups on average especially
18:47when it comes to physical health asia
18:48pacific islanders report better health
18:51but if they live in a neighborhood where
18:53black and brown people around them are
18:55having use have force being used against
18:57them
18:58disproportionately more so than that
19:00that the that of whites
19:03they're going to say their health is not
19:04very good
19:06as well
19:07so what i say is that we often think
19:09about police violence as a
19:11social condition i mean it's a condition
19:13of the person but it's far more than
19:15that it's a structural condition and
19:16there's a structural condition that
19:18anyone can tie themselves into depending
19:20upon the situation like this one here
19:23i'll explain it then we have a different
19:24thing we're worried about now if we look
19:26at most studies on policing we want to
19:28know these questions of is there
19:30something about policing that is
19:32inequitable it's prejudice but it's not
19:34about the officer themselves and so when
19:36we look at about that is to understand
19:38the connection between
19:39the racial composition the ethno-racial
19:41composition of a neighborhood as well as
19:44you're just going in there and using
19:45forests this is really deployed at all
19:47cases in 2013 in new york police
19:48department and we find that it's true in
19:51areas where there's uh higher
19:52concentrations of blacks and latinos the
19:55likelihood of having obesity the
19:56likelihood of it having um high blood
19:58pressure um and even the the
20:01relative likelihood of having diabetes
20:03is is much more
20:04um
20:05but it's the other thing if we think
20:07about
20:08racial differences in use of force i
20:09want you to hold on to that thing i
20:11mentioned before about asia pacific
20:12islanders having worse health so to
20:14speak um if they live in neighborhoods
20:17uh where there's
20:19black and latino residents being more
20:21likely or petitions to be more likely to
20:23be stopped by the police we find here
20:24that in areas that are
20:2640 or more percent white
20:29right these areas do not have blacks and
20:30latinos in them when there is that extra
20:33little dose of racial disparities in use
20:35of force you have higher levels of
20:37diabetes obesity high blood pressure or
20:40fair health among those individuals and
20:42so what you're looking at here is this
20:44this
20:45you know kind of undotted right kind of
20:48solid line
20:49at the lower edges
20:52of percent black latino it's those folks
20:56who live in these neighborhoods that are
20:57doing it that are having these
20:59experiences now one of the reasons that
21:01we we want to pay attention to that is
21:02that on average in new york city this is
21:04only 34 neighborhoods on average like 33
21:07out of 34 places black and latino
21:10pedestrians are more likely to have use
21:11of forest so where is the variation the
21:13variation is whether you're 69 more
21:16likely
21:18right versus you are
21:20normal right that's that's actually a
21:22pretty scary thing so you get problems
21:25when you're in place in your
21:27neighborhoods and there are problems not
21:29necessarily for you but for the folks
21:31living in these predominantly white
21:32neighborhoods
21:33when you get when you leave those
21:34neighbors get you get free you get
21:36stopped and enforced is against you
21:40one of the things that i think becomes a
21:41lot more complicated is that we don't
21:43necessarily have a race gender
21:46kind of construct so i mentioned the
21:48race thing that which is like black
21:49latinos have some problems
21:51in some places asian pacific islanders
21:53have some problems in other places
21:54lights have their own problems in some
21:56places there's everybody that gets some
21:59some problems when it comes to physical
22:00health
22:01we have men
22:03getting a little bit harder to bear when
22:05it comes to psychological distress
22:08but we have women on the other hand who
22:10are carrying the burdens of people
22:11actually dying so there's a way for us
22:13to identify this objectively speaking um
22:16lethal surveillance it's legal
22:18intervention deficit is an icd
22:19characteristic if you ever wanted to
22:21track this at a national level there
22:23goes your uh there goes your your
22:25diagnosis you don't actually make any of
22:27this up the difference is that this is
22:29the um cause of injury that is
22:31identified by a medical examiner
22:35or coroner so some of these folks are
22:37going to be you know sanctioned by say
22:38some of them are private but the point
22:40is when they saw the body when they saw
22:43the injury they said there is no way in
22:45the world this would have happened
22:46except
22:47for contact by the police
22:50and of course or the attempt of actually
22:53following the law
22:54so this is not police and you know
22:56they're only off duty and they did this
22:57or whatever and it's not that
23:00there wasn't other things in there i'm
23:01saying there would not have been a death
23:03here there would not have been an uh
23:05assault here if the police had not been
23:07involved in this so these are legal
23:09intervention deaths what we know is that
23:10generally um in a 10-year period uh
23:13prior to floyd at all if there were
23:15three or more legal intervention deaths
23:17in that neighborhood um that you had
23:19higher levels of blood pressure and more
23:20obesity for everybody in the
23:22neighborhood um among women if you
23:24compare all women in the united states
23:25or sorry in new york
23:27in new york city and you just say this
23:28woman is in a neighborhood there's three
23:30or more this one is not the women in
23:32those neighborhoods with three or more
23:33are going to have have a greater risk of
23:35obesity um what
23:37was was what was scary for me though
23:39when you look at the gender disparity
23:41within the neighborhoods the gender
23:42disparity in um this i call it the cbd
23:46trifecta this is listen if you if the
23:48likelihood of you having a heart attack
23:50is when you have three things diabetes
23:52high blood pressure and obesity the risk
23:53of having a heart attack goes way up and
23:55we know for in the same neighborhood if
23:57you're living in these lethally severed
23:59areas women are over 50 more likely to
24:02have each one of those conditions that
24:04is
24:05huge
24:06because these folks are not the they're
24:08not the victims on average
24:10of police killings they're not
24:12necessarily getting stopped by the
24:13police
24:14on you know some hands you might say
24:16that black women's and latino women's um
24:19women in general their health is better
24:20than men but they're bro they're bearing
24:22the brunt in a different way but not
24:24nevertheless the same
24:26the last one i'll show you is from uh
24:28philadelphia um here we're looking at
24:30this question of just frisking but we're
24:31going to look at hey i want to do
24:33something about what's going on so
24:35you're going to use the emergency room
24:36or you're going to go to an urgent care
24:38somewhere and you're going to try to get
24:40attention for the things that have
24:41happened to you if you live in a
24:42neighborhood where there's more frisk
24:45and this is just again that's in the
24:46extra block you're less likely to go
24:49all right so the likelihood of going to
24:50an emergency room actually crashes it
24:52crashes the more likely there are to
24:54have a frisking in the streets this
24:56isn't in philadelphia so number one it's
24:58not just philadelphia it's it's a lot of
25:00folks and we see where we are all the
25:01time
25:03so we know this is the kind of for me
25:05what i say uh is a mechanism right it's
25:08a mechanism towards a pre-existing
25:10condition
25:11right so we have a structural condition
25:13of police violence that is a
25:15precondition of things that are
25:17preconditions of death
25:19those are preconditions of basically i'm
25:21sick all the time
25:22which then when we have a problem like a
25:24cobit or anything else you're not
25:26necessarily going wanna survive that and
25:27we knew that happened we saw that happen
25:29in the first six or nine months of code
25:32um
25:33there's something that's a precondition
25:34to police violence though and some of
25:36this work is actually starting to come
25:37out um i think the some of the strongest
25:40work i've seen is uh you know in
25:42minneapolis basically kind of connecting
25:45um police violence and long long long
25:48time ago what's going all the way back
25:50then so this is the stuff between hope
25:51data homeowner loan corporation maps
25:55and what you see
25:56every day as a racial composition and
25:58then what you're going to see in police
25:59violence
26:00um
26:01what we know in about 100 years about 80
26:04years now right we knew that there were
26:06some folks who were hired by the
26:07government to go around and say hey if i
26:09wanted to invest as of the government in
26:12what an fha loan or va loan
26:15where would be the best place for me to
26:17invest that money and know that in
26:18general within 20 30 years i'll get my
26:20money back
26:21and the the thing i get by having this
26:24insurance is that i don't have to pay
26:26for a lot of defaults the taxpayers
26:28don't have to pay for a lot of defaults
26:30so we want to make sure we're going to
26:31use our our money and use it uh
26:33judiciously what we find here is that
26:35there are some parts of the cities that
26:38we're talking about that the government
26:41from the 30s was like i don't want to
26:42give money there because i think it's
26:44not going to be able to help me as
26:47a structural nation right we're going to
26:49waste resources there and we know that
26:51there's a very strong corollary between
26:54the percentage of black folks and this
26:55is in
26:56minneapolis 26 the twin cities and
26:59whether a neighborhood was actually
27:00identified as red so we had 1980 here
27:04this is some of this data here from 1980
27:06to 2010
27:08and we know that across that time this
27:10is a 30 period 30-year period of time
27:12and still the case today
27:14um
27:15that if a neighborhood was deemed as
27:17green if it was considered one of the
27:18best neighborhoods there really hasn't
27:20been much change in the percentage of
27:21blacks in the neighborhood now i want
27:22you to understand
27:24that in 1930 there weren't a lot of
27:25blacks
27:27in minneapolis right so we're not
27:28talking about something that you know
27:30has been stable we've had an influx of
27:33folks who've come in the last 50 years
27:34or so
27:36to minneapolis that are not white right
27:39and what we find is that those
27:40individuals have primarily
27:42settled at least for when it comes to
27:44black individuals
27:45nonlinear individuals they probably
27:47settled in neighborhoods in 1937 the
27:50homeowner loan corporation and the
27:52federal government agreed with them that
27:53these were hazardous neighborhoods right
27:56um or they were definitely in decline
27:58right so they were never going to make
27:58it anyway right so i'm trying to say
28:09sometimes work sometimes it doesn't
28:12um
28:13but this is data that we are comfortable
28:15with i think a lot of us who study
28:16public health have you seen this data
28:18seen it use it believe it or not believe
28:19it but we know this actually happened in
28:21history um there's another kind of data
28:23that
28:24is hard to find because we just don't
28:26have very good records that have been
28:28they have stayed around for so long and
28:30it's data on racial covenants and racial
28:32covenants is a different kind of
28:34redlining redlining is at the
28:36neighborhood level this whole area just
28:37doesn't get money uh
28:40racial covenants is at the business
28:41level
28:42is when a business said hey you know
28:44wait a minute if you want to use this
28:46you can't have other people do this in
28:48this place it's a private contract and
28:50from really you know until
28:52uh
28:541920s or so the supreme court said hey
28:56this is a private contract it's not my
28:57issue you can do it now what do these
28:59restrictive covenants look like what we
29:01know is that they basically say things
29:02like specific racial groups do not let
29:05this person there etc say this i want to
29:08just go south minneapolis in the same
29:10period we just talked about racial
29:11composition changing um in the areas uh
29:14that are lighter
29:16there are very few black residents there
29:17at these time periods in the areas that
29:20are darker and there are various
29:21different kinds of areas um there's 50
29:23or more
29:24black folks in that area now you do see
29:26a dispersion that's going to happen over
29:27time
29:28but there's a block here there's a
29:30there's like a
29:31a stout line that happens between 47th
29:34street and chicago avenue if you know
29:37minneapolis or if you were paying to
29:38paying attention to the george floyd
29:40case um in in 2000 and you know that
29:42about 10 blocks north of this corner is
29:46where george floyd was
29:48uh was was was killed
29:50all right so i'm gonna just hold it for
29:51a little bit now let's think about what
29:53these covenants actually say these are
29:54per parcel they say things like it is
29:56further stipulated and agreed by and
29:58between the parties here too for
29:59themselves
30:01i bought the house as me their heirs
30:05their kids and any person who's assigned
30:07to be their heir as part of the
30:09consideration there of that the within
30:12prescribed promises shall not be sold
30:14so you can't give it away to anyone
30:16mortgage you can't have them borrow the
30:18house for 30 30 years and perhaps have a
30:21clean title of it eventually uh or at
30:23least two listen i don't even want you
30:25to run into person
30:28right who are not caucasian
30:29or occupied by any person or persons
30:32other than members of the caucasian race
30:34so don't just know right that building
30:36right there this is this is not up for
30:38grabs this is not going to be a part of
30:39judification it's not going to be a part
30:40of urban renewal it is not going to be a
30:42part of civil rights movement where we
30:44opened up these neighborhoods and so on
30:46and so forth we we have even places that
30:48things that are more specific to that
30:50and they're and they're they're
30:51important to think about for a good
30:52reason one no person of any race other
30:55than the aryan race people say oh you
30:56don't know what white people are we
30:57don't know these things no it actually
30:59says the aryan race and they actually
31:00use the term i didn't make it up they
31:01use and turn themselves shall use or
31:03occupy in any building or any lot
31:06except that this covenant shall not
31:08prevent occupancy by domestic servants
31:11so you can work here but you can't live
31:13here you can work and be close to the
31:15person you're working to who is not a
31:17negro servant or a negro at all who has
31:20to be caucasian
31:22but you can't live there
31:23okay so you can get our money
31:26but we don't want to have fun we don't
31:28want to play with you and it doesn't
31:29include everything give me the trailer
31:30give me the basement give me the barn so
31:32on and so forth um the garage whatever
31:35you want any outbuilding so so speak
31:37anything that's temporary anything does
31:38not just uh know and accept those who
31:42are uh going to be working
31:46so i'm gonna wrap this up because i
31:47already pre precluded this all right
31:48that's i set it up for you already this
31:50is george floyd square all right we see
31:52the sign here it says 38th street right
31:55right down here is chicago
31:56and this square when there were when the
31:59protests uh came out in minneapolis when
32:02these things happened george floyd was
32:04was was killed was murdered was
32:06suffocated this place was protected the
32:09protesters were like you're not coming
32:11here and breaking up anything this is a
32:14safe place and at least in this place
32:16it's it's this is a memorial it's gonna
32:18be a memorial site i think that's
32:19important for us and sam because we
32:21think about the death issue that's on
32:23the on the on the table we often think
32:25about it as a wanton list it's just
32:27anywhere anytime everyone can get it no
32:29there is a conversation that's happening
32:30here and is a structural conversation
32:32about why this street at chicago avenue
32:35and that street at 38th street why it
32:36matters
32:38right and it's not just because there
32:39was a guy there and there was a pharmacy
32:41there and there was a
32:43a gas station across the street that's
32:44not the reason why it mattered i would
32:46say if i were a pretty bold person i'll
32:49say the reason why it matters is because
32:51it's 10 blocks from a place that doesn't
32:53have any of these problems
32:55so in these ten blocks if you go down uh
32:57you'll see a restrictive covenant this
32:59is that building right here um
33:01the shenandoah terrorist company
33:03sold the property uh part of a um
33:06suburban area or what will become a
33:08suburban area um uh harry williams on
33:11and out on this he didn't they didn't
33:12sell it on 1925 it expired on 1925.
33:16which was that it was sold well before
33:18then right some of these things were to
33:20life and some actually did have
33:22expiration dates so i'm gonna let's make
33:24understanding in 1925 which is eight
33:26years before the homeowner learning
33:28corporation came in and said hey wait a
33:30minute this one can't get it this one is
33:31okay this is a green lined area
33:34okay this is the area where you you you
33:36want to put people you want to put
33:37businesses and if you go today this is
33:394701 chicago avenue minneapolis
33:42minnesota 55407. if you go today and you
33:45find out what is at this address what is
33:47at this address
33:49did i just do that
33:51sorry sorry sorry
33:53what is that in this address this thing
33:55is going faster why is it going that way
33:57like it's going the wrong way for me
33:59why don't these things go this way look
34:03like way down here
34:05see here we go at 4701
34:08uh chicago avenue we have something now
34:10called the wings financial credit union
34:12and it is a block it is a corner across
34:14the street from its wells fargo bank
34:16down the street from there is the health
34:17partner's urgent care there's there's
34:19there's places to eat right next down to
34:22it is the actual river this is a good
34:23place to stay okay so what is now
34:26frankly a part of the story of trauma
34:29for a whole community and really the
34:30nation
34:31is also a part of the story of trauma
34:33that was enacted a hundred years ago
34:36it was it was stabilized 100 years ago
34:38remember this was uh
34:39the end of something at the beginning of
34:41something
34:42so i'm going to wrap it up there because
34:44i think it's important for us to
34:45understand that one of these things is
34:47not just the same as the other it's a
34:49it's a conversation piece it's a it's a
34:51it's a it's a walking down the street it
34:53really is a walking down the street but
34:55imagine that street is history
34:58imagine that street is from the civil
35:00the civil rights movement here imagine
35:02if it was from the civil war to the
35:04civil rights movement to here
35:06what does that street tell you you build
35:09where you put black white people and you
35:11let it go you don't really care what it
35:13becomes if you say
35:15anyone can come that is not white
35:18right now that's pretty dramatic i would
35:20say but i think it speaks to the to a
35:23lot of the culture that's going on here
35:24this is a song song by uh one mic by naz
35:27comes in about a year or so after this
35:29i'm gonna do dial okay
35:31is working in this space as cultural
35:33space of new york city this is the video
35:35all right and if you pay attention to
35:37the video he's actually the musician but
35:39behind him is a cop
35:41chasing three black guys who actually
35:43were just they were just sitting in the
35:44car and they saw the guy coming saying
35:46it's time to go and he started going and
35:49in one sense what one block means is
35:50like give me one chance give me one
35:53chance to sit here and tell you that
35:54this is not who i am this is not my life
35:57and what i would say if you took the
35:58long history of this thing and you said
36:00i think i want to understand what's
36:02going on you do not look at the block
36:04you do not look at the 10 blocks you
36:07don't look at where the police are going
36:08now you don't even look at the number of
36:11black folks in the area you don't look
36:13at hulk and you don't even look at the
36:15restrictive covenants because frankly
36:17they were made during black
36:18reconstruction which was supposed to be
36:20a good time
36:22you look at the broader system of
36:24domination that's going on and it's one
36:26of the words i think in my opinion that
36:27is being thrown out around and not
36:29really understood and fleshed about but
36:31this the question of systemic
36:33domination which is the root root uh
36:35kind of framework to understand systemic
36:37racism is about a post it is literally
36:40i'm telling you this is a post-colonial
36:42relationship between the nation right
36:46and the people in there and particularly
36:48thinking about this not as in empire
36:50nation but as a racial state in a racial
36:52state you can get that full
36:55line the ten blocks actually becomes a
36:57hundred years
36:59maybe go back before that and we have
37:01some understandings of what systemic
37:03racism is it's not willy-nilly you can
37:04go find it out yourself the first
37:06mention of it is in uh by
37:07brent in 1986 uh philharmonia essence
37:11referenced it a year later and she's the
37:13one that really is credited for the
37:14questions around um
37:16um perceived discrimination and so on
37:18and so forth um but it was actually the
37:20canadians that got it better got it
37:22better than we did about it 10 years
37:24later has a clear definition we don't
37:26have to guess about this system of
37:28racism is inequality he's rooted in the
37:30system-wide operation of society that
37:32excludes substantial numbers of members
37:35of particular groups from significant
37:36participation in major social
37:39institutions this is not just about the
37:41deprivation of resources this is not
37:43just about a bunch of terror in the area
37:45this is not just about people living in
37:47an area
37:48this is about a society-wide
37:50operation
37:52so we need to start to codify that we
37:54need to operationalize that and any one
37:56of these things i just mentioned to you
37:58is not sufficient
37:59but neither is a cluster of variables
38:03and this is where we kind of break apart
38:05in my opinion uh with the question of
38:06systemic racism because if you read
38:08someone more sociological research on
38:10systemic racism we are talking about
38:12questions of ideology
38:13that are
38:14pitted into the processes and the
38:18conditions of making the state
38:21all right their practices and their
38:22group interests you have to measure the
38:24interest you have to measure what is
38:26actually done
38:28not just across your life course i know
38:30you all are great you're going to live
38:3080 years 90 or so and so forth my dad's
38:32turning 80 next week is awesome
38:35but you're talking about a much longer
38:37lifeline the lifeline of society
38:39um
38:40[Music]
38:41so what i wanted to just kind of end me
38:43on is if you really i think if you if
38:45you want to if you had to take a stab
38:47where in this process you wanted to
38:50consider measurement
38:52you don't look at what it is you look at
38:54how it's moved
38:55you look at how things how resources are
38:58exchanged
38:59i'm here there about whether higher
39:01levels of education is bad or good we
39:03know that is bad right we know that but
39:05the reality is the educational market
39:07and expectations have completely changed
39:09over the last 50 years so is it just
39:11less education i think less education is
39:13doing something else now it's it's it's
39:15feeding on other kinds of market
39:16dynamics and they're not just i have i
39:19don't have they're about how people are
39:20coming into the potential to exchange
39:22resources so measure that
39:25measure how goods are changed i do it my
39:28own self with thinking about mortgages
39:30um not just these business contracts and
39:32saying hey not just do you get a
39:34mortgage which is what some of the
39:36traditional institutional forms of
39:37redlining deal with but what are the
39:40protections around the mortgages that
39:42that you do get if for instance
39:46you lost a job or you lost something and
39:48you couldn't pay the bill would the
39:50federal government help you out were
39:51they saying you know what i know you
39:53defaulted on the loan but we're not
39:55going to have everybody around you just
39:57fail as well so these are fha loans
39:59these are loans that once they
40:00originated they're sold in the secondary
40:02market to um um uh folks who are you
40:05know basically not protected by these
40:07spaces
40:09and there are different ways to look at
40:10it there's not one way or the uh the
40:11other way i think each of them offers
40:13their own uh conversation in the
40:15research i've done on children and their
40:16symptoms is the racial differences in
40:19where they're alone is protected by the
40:20government or not it's driving some of
40:22these on these issues and that's really
40:24really cold for predatory lending um so
40:27i'm i'm gonna i'm gonna
40:30wrap up there i think we are
40:32yes about two more minutes before we
40:33want to do q a um and what i wanted i do
40:36want to leave you with this because i
40:37hopefully we will take it in um and
40:40share it with truth and honor um is that
40:42there really are three different kinds
40:44of racism that are not mediated through
40:46the individual you need some other form
40:49of structure whether it's a neighborhood
40:51or as a school or it's a playground i
40:54don't it doesn't really matter what it
40:55could be a set of occupations or an
40:57industry you need something else to tie
40:59the exchange together
41:01neighborhoods the exchange is dead
41:03listen you're my neighbor i might pick
41:04up your mail if you're not there we may
41:06see each other when we come home or
41:07someone else will wave that's an
41:08exchange of social and cultural capital
41:10okay everything's in exchange when you
41:12look at the organizational level but
41:14even in that there are different forms
41:16of racism the institutional racism is
41:18what really people are are looking at
41:20now and it can be systemic but it needs
41:22to be understood that this is
41:22institutional this is here we're in a
41:25racial colonial capitalism we're making
41:28money off of the exchange of goods that
41:30is highly and systematically racialized
41:33and it's not racialized it's racialist
41:36right it is racism at in its peak
41:38definition um i make more money i don't
41:40pay people so and so forth i mean you're
41:42looking at specific kinds of resources
41:44specific kinds of services and specific
41:46kinds of opportunities right that would
41:48be more of the question around i do or
41:50do not have education so on and so forth
41:52we were talking about structural racism
41:54or the form of structural uh uh the
41:57structural form of systemic racism
41:59you're i do i believe that you're
42:00talking about how one thing affects
42:02another thing one institution guides
42:04another institution so think about the
42:05prison department the prison to the
42:07school the prison pipeline think about
42:09the prison to the labor market pipeline
42:10they're actually there too we don't we
42:12start early but not late um but here
42:14you're talking about how the policies
42:15and the laws the practices are actually
42:17going to make certain kinds of exchanges
42:20hard three strikes you're out
42:22with the first strike is when you're 15
42:24and you were just fooling around the
42:25next two are going to matter if the
42:26first strike is when you're 18 or 17 and
42:29you have another two i mean there's a
42:31different conversation than that but
42:33states sometimes 16 is like not ages
42:36consent the other times it is right so
42:38that's a structural conversation that
42:40then roots two things together and then
42:42lastly as i was mentioning it um this is
42:44a systemic form of systemic racism and
42:46we are not anymore talking about rules
42:48we're not talking about actual things we
42:50need to have a conversation around
42:51ideologies we have to have a
42:52conversation around actual people's
42:54interests and primarily the question of
42:56the interests of folks who are in who
42:58are invested in anti-indigenous
43:00regulations they're invested in
43:01anti-blackness um they're invested in
43:03anti-immigrant ideologies um these are
43:05individuals who are making money off of
43:07these things and they're creating whole
43:08levels of consent processes that matter
43:10here so i'm gonna end that um this is
43:12everything i just said is is wrapped up
43:14in this thing i do believe that policing
43:16doesn't vote in america policing doesn't
43:18just hold in the criminal legal system
43:20it's also you know who gets access to
43:21the sick role who gets a day off of
43:24school because they did this or they did
43:25that so the question of surveillance
43:27is what i'm talking about when i say
43:29policing and i am talking with the blood
43:31i am talking about the life force and we
43:33talk about the question of america we're
43:34talking about the question of making a
43:36state you have to talk about where
43:37people live and how they get out of the
43:39places where they live or the places
43:41where they're born
43:48is it okay open up for um
43:51yeah thank you so much dr sewell
43:52fantastic presentation really enjoyed
43:54that so we'll now open up the floor for
43:57questions as a reminder please type your
44:00questions into the chat box or use the
44:02raise hand function
44:04that is at the bottom of your screen
44:05most likely
44:14i feel like there was some hands-raiser
44:16i don't know if those other things going
44:17on
44:19i think they're clapping for you
44:20virtually
44:22well thank you
44:26so i'll start with a question so
44:29first of all again fantastic
44:30presentation
44:31my question is based on
44:35even the the kind of plot that you're
44:37showing here what type of policy changes
44:40or practical changes might be
44:42most beneficial to kind of rectify
44:46just inequities everywhere particularly
44:49because as you mentioned it's so deeply
44:51entrenched and and yeah i look forward
44:53to hearing your thoughts
44:54yeah so when i have a when i hear the
44:56term policy sometimes i think about it
44:59as the redistribution of tax money i
45:01think a lot of folks are working in that
45:03realm i if i had if you had to put me
45:06in a room and i would tell you something
45:09i think we need to start redistributing
45:10the stock market i mean that's a wells
45:12fargo there and that's a wings federal
45:14credit union that's a house that was
45:17became an actual financial institution
45:19and that's actual money that is still
45:21circulating in the population across the
45:24world
45:25so you could focus on the neighborhood
45:28you should focus on the neighborhood you
45:29perhaps should focus on bringing
45:31resources into the neighborhood not just
45:33people moving around right to better
45:35neighborhoods
45:36so i don't you know reinvestment
45:38mobilization justification they only go
45:40so far because you have to take care of
45:41the actual people not just the buildings
45:44in the place
45:45but if you if you really had to think
45:46about well who's making money here i
45:49know that when you get the mortgage you
45:51get to go home at night and be safe i
45:53know that when you go to school that you
45:55have a better way to grasp things and
45:57your next generation has a better way to
45:59grasp things and when you get the good
46:00job that is money in your pocket but
46:03there are there is way more money out
46:04there and those are the monies that
46:06actually help us create these
46:07institutions that are going to
46:09set in stone the relations between haves
46:12and have-nots the blacks and the latinos
46:14and
46:14and immigrants and natives those
46:16relationships are not made from house to
46:18house from education space into next
46:20case and they're definitely not made at
46:22an hourly job or even a salary job so i
46:24i would be hitting
46:25i'd be in the stock market sorry
46:29or not
46:29[Laughter]
46:31thank you
46:44all right i'm not seeing any hands
46:46apologies if i'm missing you
47:03so question in the chat box
47:05from asher coelho
47:07what do you recommend for people
47:08entering the medical field with regard
47:10to treating people of color
47:14yeah i love this question i love
47:15answering it too
47:18i remember just saying you know when i i
47:19work with doctors um at a public
47:22hospital in other places um who their
47:24surgeons
47:26they look at they look at the actual
47:27organ and they say okay what is the
47:28actual organ doing they're not doing and
47:30so when they're actually trying to save
47:31lives like when someone gets shot or so
47:33on and so forth or someone comes in for
47:34domestic violence or so on and so forth
47:36like an acute trauma center they have to
47:38focus on that individual and that person
47:41that doctor that's trained in
47:43the actual body
47:44it's hard from the state take the step
47:46back and say
47:48well it really was it really was
47:50segregation it really was um this stuff
47:53that happens a hundred years ago
47:55it's not that it's not true but if
47:57you're a medical professional going in
47:59there we often get trained around
48:00questions of cultural competency
48:04you're able to go through these
48:05conversations and so on and so forth
48:06with a patient
48:08but you also need to think about
48:09structural competency you have to think
48:10about the ways in which your own place
48:12is actually either standing in or
48:14standing for a bridge uh towards
48:16questions of inequities you do have to
48:18open up the the hospitals you do have to
48:20open up the urgent care you have to open
48:22it up because otherwise you become part
48:24as a medical doctor with all the great
48:27expertise that you have you become part
48:28of the problem so i would i would
48:30encourage um
48:32folks johnson metal is kind of in this
48:34camp that when you're training doctors
48:36and when doctors are actually out on the
48:37field you need structural competency as
48:41a key form of training it's about
48:44justice it's not just about equality
48:46it's about justice
48:51thank you so another question from the
48:53uh chat box uh
48:55dr kim gans asks what do you
48:57think are the mechanisms that links
48:59systemic racist racism to help
49:03um
49:05honestly i i think that the pandemic is
49:08just such a light here
49:11so the reality is the places where folks
49:13were dying first they were very
49:15under-resourced the
49:17the hospitals that people showed up in
49:20didn't have beds they didn't have basic
49:22equipment so you have a question of how
49:25the goods of things to take care of your
49:27health are under resources for the
49:30problems that these structural
49:31conditions of inequities by race by
49:33immigrant status by a nativity have
49:36created you have an under resourced
49:38environment in the middle and so even if
49:40they even if someone does everything
49:42right they did they get diagnosed later
49:45and so on and so forth if i had to say
49:47you have some room for improvement it's
49:49you have to buffer those systems where
49:50there's more issues
49:52that means it's not it's not going to be
49:54an equal system it's going to be a
49:56equitable system so when you consider
49:59mechanisms
50:00mechanisms you have to always look for
50:02questions of when someone is not getting
50:04the needs met
50:06the needs
50:08um not just when they're not being
50:10treated the same most of our
50:11understandings of everything policies so
50:13on and so forth are based off of an
50:15equality model not an equity model
50:21another question from the chat box uh
50:23emil common ask do you know of applied
50:26opera
50:27operationalizations or measures of
50:30structural or systemic racism
50:33yeah there's a lot more stuff that's
50:34coming out there i think so there's some
50:35exciting things so there's a a couple
50:37papers um that are coming out um
50:41courtney bowen is i think one of them
50:42that are doing some work in there
50:44they're using more mathematical models
50:46to identify
50:48the the arc of systemic racism these are
50:51very
50:52i would say scientific models are very
50:54based off of what researchers do and
50:56what kind of analytic models people like
50:58but one thing that they do do is
51:00question that this is across time it's
51:03also across space and so i really like
51:04those models i use some of those models
51:06my own um some people call them cross
51:08random effects models but they're
51:09allowing two things to change
51:11not just
51:13you're in things but that in those
51:15things you're being transferred into
51:17different
51:18areas of opportunities and different
51:20areas of disadvantage and what we do
51:22know what we should know and what you
51:24may need to learn is that it is not a
51:26one to one to one equation one to one to
51:28one does not actually equal three
51:30sometimes it's here and it goes to
51:32advantage and then it goes to
51:32disadvantage and it moves around the
51:34constellation now it's true that there's
51:36a packing of it so folks who do this i
51:39would say the structural model they're
51:41looking at how one thing is on top of
51:44the other thing is on top of the other
51:45thing it's on top of the other thing um
51:47uh the work of uh mark heissenbuhler the
51:49work of
51:50joe
51:51of joe fagins or uh benefit they're
51:53they're talking about
51:55on top of each other right um but i
51:57think if you want to consider questions
51:59of operatization of ideology you got
52:02studies i mean i love this david he's
52:04like how many times people uh search for
52:07the n word number one why would why are
52:08you searching for the n word
52:10you gotta think about what is the
52:12mindset of why people search for
52:13different things we are in a digital age
52:16information is everything um so think
52:18about how people are using information
52:20and i think that would be um we there
52:23are examples what i just mentioned but
52:24there are other people are using things
52:25more and more that i think are really
52:26nice and interesting
52:30another question from the chat box um
52:33a question about maybe what the
52:35association is between the ethno-racial
52:37diversity of kind of police forces and
52:40how that's associated with the degree to
52:43which they use force and then
52:44secondarily the health of the community
52:47okay so like three questions but i'll
52:48take one of them or i'll take two um so
52:51unfortunately what we know is that like
52:52the police forces
52:54the police force like people are
52:56socialized into treating individuals
52:58frankly like the war criminals like
53:01they're actually
53:02uh folks who are engaged and bored that
53:04is a change in our police system um
53:08so
53:09there are differences among police
53:11officers and how
53:13in the level of
53:16care which i was saying support that
53:18uh community members experience women
53:22more empathetic than
53:23than men
53:25there is evidence that uh when you are
53:28in a community where you're sharing the
53:30same race particularly folks who are in
53:31disadvantaged communities that there are
53:32better relations but what i would say
53:35better relations meaning you're not
53:36going to be scared to please so much but
53:38it almost never changes that feedback it
53:41doesn't necessarily change the impact of
53:43actual police violence on uh
53:46criminal criminalization rates or
53:48incarceration because the police are
53:50doing they're there to do one thing and
53:52they can make you feel better about what
53:54they're doing but they don't they're not
53:56going to stop doing what they're they
53:57were trained to do
53:59um
53:59and so i do think that we should have
54:02more we have to have you actually have
54:03to have a more diverse police force
54:05unless you want to keep on having all
54:06these riots all over the place and these
54:07unrest in these protests if you don't
54:09actually respect the needs and the
54:11voices of community members you have
54:13problems and they're not gonna they're
54:15not gonna just go away because it's the
54:16quote-unquote law because that's what we
54:18do every day we challenge the things
54:20around us if you're here and you're
54:21growing that means you're saying
54:22something is different that that isn't
54:24different right something we know is
54:26working
54:27it's actually not working so what are
54:28you going to do about you're going to
54:29just sit home and not do anything and
54:30say i think i like the world as it is
54:32you don't like the world as it is
54:34so you should adapt to the needs of the
54:35community and i think as the criminal
54:37ecosystem does that uh the these these
54:40marginal
54:41marginalized communities will have a
54:42better
54:43um say in what's going on but in the end
54:46violence is violence
54:48and you know in some sense it actually
54:50doesn't matter what the perpetra the
54:52perpetuator of the violence is but what
54:54makes it kind of really uncomfortable is
54:56when the perpetrator is the person
54:58that's supposed to be protecting you
54:59that's state-sanctioned violence
55:01um
55:03and that's the difference that we're
55:04starting to make that violence is true
55:06but there are forms of violence that
55:08have impacts that are far beyond is
55:10actually i'm pushing back into health
55:12outcomes
55:13they're far beyond health outcomes you
55:15see a health camp outcome now people die
55:17okay we live so many years so those
55:20health counts are now you need to
55:22actually be starting to think about the
55:23health of the community
55:25in a structural level which is
55:26generation to generation so i'm going to
55:28be more concerned about how these
55:30generations of frankly death are linking
55:33or leaning are linking on to each other
55:36and reinforcing each other rather than
55:38someone um in their own life
55:42and that that generational part is going
55:45to explain why people are having
55:47problems now
55:51so another question kind of related to
55:53health outcomes uh first do you do any
55:55research on black maternal infant
55:57mortality and morbidity and then
55:58secondarily
56:00do you have any suggestions about
56:01reducing uh these sorts of outcomes
56:04yeah so i have a couple of students who
56:06are doing that work we we've started to
56:08for me it wasn't my uh form of interest
56:10but there are students that i work with
56:12who are very interested in maternal
56:14health and infant mortality and that
56:16relationship is also quite scary i mean
56:19did we do
56:20many studies and actually now um
56:22different kind you like there's one in
56:24atlanta there's a study out in new york
56:26and dc and seattle that shows that when
56:28folks are are when mothers are not
56:30getting um the care they need um when
56:33they're not
56:35able to rest frankly during pregnancy
56:38pregnancy isn't work okay let's just be
56:40clear about that when they're not able
56:42to have a place of rest because the
56:43environment itself is is a violent place
56:45like they're going to have problems and
56:46if those places that they're in have
56:49these longer lines of redlining and a
56:52resource extraction of covenants and so
56:53on so forth it's a really it's almost
56:56like i call it it's a death cycle um so
56:58before you even get to life you get
57:00death and then when you're in the life
57:01there's death and then
57:02there's death and dealing with the life
57:04you know black mothers right they're the
57:05ones burying their their kids they're
57:07burying their kids um and it hurts them
57:10the sisters are burying their fathers it
57:11hurts them um and we see that you know
57:13erica garner is one of
57:16renee randall's others they they were
57:17burying their kids you know and that it
57:19just it just it just breaks them down
57:22um
57:23so i think this last paper that came out
57:25on lethal lethal surveillance is i would
57:27say one of
57:28um a really insightful one where where
57:31do you where do you reduce it
57:33if i had if i'm you're talking about now
57:35organs the circulatory system
57:38right the hearts lungs blood institute
57:40like this is where you if you want it to
57:42ever be able to shield off these
57:45problems you're going to have to figure
57:47out how to disentangle
57:49uh the trauma of the life from how the
57:52body is responding to it not just and
57:54not your your toes are very important
57:57you're not saying your toes are not
57:58important but what it really matters is
57:59that blood force right right there in
58:01the middle and um that i call it this is
58:04the heart blood it's uh it's a heart
58:06root and we think about root systems
58:08when we think about trees and most
58:10people say it's you know bad apple good
58:11apple and roots don't really work like
58:13that you know roots are actually
58:14themselves trees they actually have many
58:17different things that they spot off some
58:18of when you've seen them and some of
58:20them you don't and each of these root
58:22systems they have their own blood force
58:24that's reading them so it's not a seed
58:27itself is a heart right
58:30okay
58:31um
58:32i do think you have to go there and it
58:33can't be just so specific of actually
58:36the heart itself because that's the
58:37point of the heart it's a circulatory
58:39system that goes everywhere in the body
58:40if it didn't we wouldn't have limbs we
58:42wouldn't have toes and hands and stuff
58:48this
58:49is this what time are we on this i think
58:51this might be our last question i'll hit
58:52it though uh what can be done to reshape
58:54the schooling systems on external and
58:56internal levels and how effective would
58:58these changes be to this mental
58:59institution racism well we need to start
59:01allowing people to uh read banned books
59:04you know like super we have very basic
59:06things we need to do with it's not
59:07necessarily educating people to if it's
59:09right or wrong i would like people to
59:11think a little more carefully about how
59:13you're going to deal with the
59:14information you've already had
59:16because that was what school is doing is
59:18teaching you how what things used to be
59:20but what school should be is teaching on
59:23how to find out new things and process
59:25that information i think if the
59:27technology we have now is in that realm
59:29is going to allow more of the kind of um
59:32kind of constructive and creative ways
59:34of engaging the world um but in the end
59:37we have a schooling system that is under
59:39resource
59:40structurally okay if we paid our
59:42teachers if we paid our nurses as much
59:45as we pay a heart surgeon we actually
59:47probably would have better schools so if
59:49i had to if i had to do one thing i'd
59:51say you know pay pay pay i'm saying
59:54listen if you want to change something
59:55invest in the things that actually work
59:56to change it so if you want to change
59:58your school system pay these people
1:00:01don't burn them out for nine months and
1:00:02then say man figure it out rest over the
1:00:04summertime don't give them the money
1:00:05that they deserve give them money that
1:00:06your children deserve how about that
1:00:12thank you so much dr sewell and thank
1:00:14you all for
1:00:15joining us for this conversation
1:00:19thank you

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