Immaculée Ilibagiza, Rwandan genocide survivor, on fighting evil with love — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00[Music]
2. 0:08to the Arlington Catholic Herald podcast
3. 0:11we've got stories you won't find
4. 0:12anywhere else today we welcome
5. 0:15immaculee Ilibagiza an author speaker
6. 0:18and survivor of the 1994 Rwandan
7. 0:20genocide
8. 0:21she was the keynote speaker at the
9. 0:22Arlington diocesan Women's Conference in
10. 0:252017 and returns to Northern Virginia
11. 0:28this weekend
12. 0:29to lead a retreat at st. Leo the great
13. 0:31church in Fairfax
14. 0:33immaculee welcome to the program thank
15. 0:35you so much for having me
16. 0:37for those who aren't familiar with your
17. 0:38story could you briefly explain what
18. 0:40happened again I really thank you for
19. 0:43having me so what happened was in 1994
20. 0:47identified we started in Rwanda in a
21. 0:50wonder we had to thrive in the Tootsie
22. 0:52and over to and the crime that was on a
23. 0:55power I would even said her tribe the
24. 0:57politicians were on power decided to
25. 0:59kill one trying but I could happened to
26. 1:02choose really and I remember I was in a
27. 1:05college I had my family her mom and dad
28. 1:09and my two brothers it is touching when
29. 1:11I was home for Easter holiday in one
30. 1:14morning my brother came to my room and
31. 1:16told me that the president of the
32. 1:18country died so everybody knew something
33. 1:20was just like boiling up in a country
34. 1:22when they talked about it one day we are
35. 1:26going to kill that those people in that
36. 1:28tribe but then I will take it again
37. 1:30joke so maybe just crazy people were
38. 1:33angry for no reason and they were film
39. 1:35radio report wheels if we kill them we
40. 1:37kill even the baby people be shocked
41. 1:40like what what are you talking about
42. 1:42what is crazy by with the radio so we
43. 1:45really kind of knew but we didn't know
44. 1:48can this be in reality can this be
45. 1:52happening when my brother told me we and
46. 1:55I went outside and made my parents you
47. 1:57know we're also in a courtyard listening
48. 1:59radio and we find out they just closed
49. 2:03the borders of the country shut down
50. 2:05every activity in the country the only
51. 2:07thing being done was killing people
52. 2:09might ride through the tribe from the
53. 2:12moment the president died so it was
54. 2:15organized very well two days later were
55. 2:17still sitting outside too
56. 2:19in the country no one can go outside my
57. 2:22father asked me to go to the neighbor
58. 2:23who was from the hood to tribe and he
59. 2:25was a good man and really not everyone
60. 2:28was bad it was completely political but
61. 2:31many people follow by politicians he
62. 2:33went to the neighbor and when I was
63. 2:35leaving my brother my father gave me a
64. 2:37rosary you know I'm a Catholic and I
65. 2:39grew up Catholic you know unlike the
66. 2:42last gift my father gave me and I can
67. 2:45almost feel like he was telling me I
68. 2:47will never see you again and I will not
69. 2:50be here anymore to give you what you
70. 2:52made but whatever you need you know what
71. 2:54to do you go and pick up this rosary so
72. 2:57I took the rosary I went in the neighbor
73. 2:59when he asked me to go
74. 3:00the neighbor put me to sit in the back
75. 3:02room near the bathroom just say let's be
76. 3:05safe let's see what happened I spent in
77. 3:08that bathroom a 3 by 4 feet with other 7
78. 3:11women 3 months we came out Primavera
79. 3:14what I thought was going to be a day you
80. 3:17know maybe hours or maybe three days we
81. 3:20came out three months later in July and
82. 3:22when I came out everyone in my family
83. 3:25had been killed who you know anyone
84. 3:27everyone what I left behind except one
85. 3:30brother who was outside of the country
86. 3:32and during that time I completely
87. 3:35transformed to the zeros whom I thought
88. 3:38have given me in the Bible the man who
89. 3:41hit me more the pastor gave me it really
90. 3:44it was terrible but also I learned a lot
91. 3:47and that worry I share in a public not
92. 3:50to tell people look how bad it was I
93. 3:53will try to tell people look at the hand
94. 3:56of God
95. 3:57who never leaves you even in a war
96. 3:59situation well I'm sure I can't be easy
97. 4:03to share so I really appreciate you
98. 4:06sharing that with us and I understand
99. 4:09you just returned from Wanda could you
100. 4:11tell us what the situation is like now
101. 4:13and what it's like to be back after
102. 4:15everything you went through the genocide
103. 4:17again I was terrible as I was saying but
104. 4:20it taught me a lot and one of the things
105. 4:22it taught me is the importance of love
106. 4:24so even if I don't have much family in
107. 4:27Rwanda I go back especially for the
108. 4:29child to work I'm doing helping to build
109. 4:32schools
110. 4:33and repair churches and send kids to
111. 4:35school really who are poor helpful
112. 4:37family families so I was live a month
113. 4:40and I eat very much who wanders in a
114. 4:43beautiful country and by the guys who
115. 4:46killed they run away from the country
116. 4:48the government was clear that was
117. 4:49killing left to the country also so we
118. 4:52have a new government of people who will
119. 4:54refugees who who have been fighting for
120. 4:56years making them truth to be judged not
121. 5:00to offend people or not to hurt people
122. 5:02so there's peace in the country new
123. 5:05drives you know respect each other
124. 5:07I mean people feel hurt individually but
125. 5:10my the live of the country they teach
126. 5:12people to try to forgive him and talk
127. 5:15and communicate the dialogue think about
128. 5:17what happened but also let it go the
129. 5:19anger but I give credit to God above on
130. 5:22well we're recording this after a
131. 5:25weekend of horrible violence in the
132. 5:27United States mass shootings in Texas
133. 5:29Ohio Chicago what do you think we can
134. 5:33learn from your story and from the
135. 5:34genocide in Rwanda you know everybody
136. 5:39can learn something one of the things I
137. 5:43thought about when I was writing I
138. 5:45really thought about the leaders of
139. 5:46countries the leaders the politicians
140. 5:49the people position of leadership
141. 5:52anywhere just to kind of let them know
142. 5:55this is what we go through when we don't
143. 5:58protect people when you don't exercise
144. 6:00your power to protect people you know
145. 6:03when I wrote my first book left to tell
146. 6:06I made President Bush or the president
147. 6:09that time and I will never forget he
148. 6:11told me I read your book and you book
149. 6:14how helped me to know what to do in
150. 6:17Sudan in that food where was it genocide
151. 6:20that time so in our like oh my god you
152. 6:25know I'm I'm so glad I wrote that
153. 6:27exactly one other thing I wanted to
154. 6:29accomplish
155. 6:29just like either she might have been
156. 6:31going through pain because of your bad
157. 6:33decisions because you didn't think about
158. 6:35me and you talk just about your politics
159. 6:37and how to protect it as anybody so when
160. 6:41you think about human being as a paper
161. 6:43as prison the leadership if
162. 6:45for other things you can save so much
163. 6:49and you protect not bad nothing's if you
164. 6:52don't first protect people
165. 6:54that was one another big thing I wanted
166. 6:56to speak through my story and I continue
167. 6:59this quick is to tell the victims
168. 7:00because when you are a victim you hurt
169. 7:03when you are the one who lost somebody
170. 7:05you know even when other country it
171. 7:08looks like a feeling but you had one
172. 7:10other thing can happen where you you
173. 7:12remain with anger when you are destroyed
174. 7:14by you if you own anger so I share my
175. 7:17story of walking through my anger
176. 7:20letting go the anger that would have
177. 7:22destroyed me even more than what
178. 7:25happened how can you see things as they
179. 7:28are
180. 7:28how can you not live on the EQ up and
181. 7:31then you die you kind of hurt yourself
182. 7:34you would remain in a prison of the
183. 7:36hatred so and so I speak about forgive
184. 7:40me where to run to when I came outside
185. 7:42of the genocide I am a home have been
186. 7:45destroyed I had a little money our
187. 7:47clothes have been destroyed in a bond
188. 7:49our pictures everything you have to
189. 7:52start repairing from the emotions and
190. 7:56then you also have the physical that is
191. 7:57done and good so we all that I really
192. 8:01found a loving God who was so present in
193. 8:05every situation and kind of what I'm
194. 8:07telling people who are suffering those
195. 8:09who are victim
196. 8:10those were to survive in Kosovo novel so
197. 8:13you know what happened you know what
198. 8:15they witnessed how they affected their
199. 8:17family please turn towards the inside
200. 8:21and repent from a beer the emotions
201. 8:24screech worried and hold on to God you
202. 8:27have maybe nothing left
203. 8:28maybe you don't know how to to have that
204. 8:31person who was taking care of you and
205. 8:33there's no be anymore
206. 8:34turn to God like to understand
207. 8:36especially spiritually and if somebody
208. 8:39can physically you think for help
209. 8:42God uses doctors God uses graphics a
210. 8:46nobody remain close to God whatever you
211. 8:49might be going through and then if
212. 8:51anyone can hear us who maybe is
213. 8:54preparing to do something about but is
214. 8:57listen
215. 8:58Halloween in time of trouble when you
216. 9:01hurt other people you know what wins it
217. 9:04might be maybe I don't even know if any
218. 9:06satisfaction of a second or a moment but
219. 9:09the consequences to this day I speak in
220. 9:12Rwanda to prisoners I speak to people of
221. 9:15killed one man I ask him what happened
222. 9:18to you you are a good person how can you
223. 9:20how can you hurt somebody
224. 9:22not that they could to suffer and they
225. 9:24are losing their life the man told me he
226. 9:26said I mean people I killed I didn't
227. 9:31even know they were dying for good I
228. 9:33could was a commodious
229. 9:34that would just be everything we come
230. 9:36back a year later I didn't think to ask
231. 9:39forever
232. 9:39so there's such evil that is hurting in
233. 9:42the world and you can't fight evil with
234. 9:45evil you have to fight it lost it is
235. 9:48love that was wrong and we need prove
236. 9:51our family and we need to teach our
237. 9:52children to love and whoever we enter
238. 9:55chose if you want to put love to protect
239. 9:57one another so I hope and pray that my
240. 10:01mystery reaches every heart and everyone
241. 10:03can we'll get something out of it that's
242. 10:05a really powerful message could you give
243. 10:07us a look ahead at the retreat you're
244. 10:09going to lead in Fairfax in a retreat I
245. 10:11say about my struggle my anger my story
246. 10:15how I came to be angry but also how I
247. 10:17worked through it to live with anger and
248. 10:20I completely was free from that another
249. 10:23thing I speak about the pain of losing
250. 10:26my pathway to grieve the lesson I
251. 10:29learned there isn't a blood that we
252. 10:31violate so much in the world and it's
253. 10:34really all that we have the most
254. 10:35powerful weapon to protect us it is
255. 10:39wrong and I speak about real-life how I
256. 10:42prayed how I spoke to God the things
257. 10:45that were confusing about me about God
258. 10:47how can you be here and yet you are
259. 10:49loving God and you're watching this and
260. 10:51then I can feel like anything I gave you
261. 10:54free will and you use it in this by the
262. 10:56way and but I promised my helper those
263. 11:00in trouble
264. 11:01so don't give up on me keep praying in a
265. 11:04real for miracles
266. 11:06I saw miracles as number one of the
267. 11:08things I was here people came to fit for
268. 11:11us
269. 11:12pick God if you exist if you were here
270. 11:16don't leave Achilles highness just a bit
271. 11:19and I know everybody and will die and I
272. 11:21know been in heaven and heaven is better
273. 11:23than where we're living on earth but
274. 11:25from my heart
275. 11:27are you afraid in the Bible asked it
276. 11:30shall be given knock the door will be
277. 11:32open I'm knocking and I'm asking you
278. 11:34please don't let them find us today it
279. 11:38was a four-bedroom house three four
280. 11:41hundred people searching the house in my
281. 11:44human capacity to think there was no way
282. 11:46they will not find us because they're
283. 11:48inside it's not like they are thinking
284. 11:50about it and I remember I asked God
285. 11:53don't let them open this door
286. 11:55just so that I know for sure at least it
287. 11:57is my God who can he asked Hussein
288. 12:00everything in the Bible is true I
289. 12:02remember after that I fainted until five
290. 12:05hours later the man who was hiding us he
291. 12:08came and told us but we searched
292. 12:10everywhere in a ceiling of the house
293. 12:13under the beds they even open to the
294. 12:15cases to see there with no babies hiding
295. 12:18that's how thorough we were searching on
296. 12:21the top of the house in the ceiling with
297. 12:23flashlights and he said at last we came
298. 12:25right to the door over the bathroom in
299. 12:27last place they were going to search and
300. 12:29before the man pulled it the door he
301. 12:32told the man was hiding well you know
302. 12:35what which was you you were a good man
303. 12:37you can't hide these bad people and he
304. 12:40turn around and left
305. 12:42so I saw so many miracles from God and I
306. 12:46sure like my communication with him was
307. 12:48constant and I can almost feel exactly
308. 12:51what he was asking of me to remain with
309. 12:53me make sure your heart is clean
310. 12:55don't hate and if you feel hate and
311. 12:58anger ask me to change instead of
312. 13:00festering and enjoying with my anger
313. 13:03like you want my protection you do your
314. 13:06part remain in love in the kindness and
315. 13:09Isis I thought the hand of God
316. 13:11everywhere
317. 13:12I asked known as I do truth I do what is
318. 13:16logging what is kind
319. 13:18God is with me and that is anybody have
320. 13:22everybody can have that nobody is saying
321. 13:24that
322. 13:25not me more well care for those who love
323. 13:27Him
324. 13:28those who want to do things right and he
325. 13:30will come to help us and sometimes
326. 13:32people think like Oh what about those
327. 13:35who died like maybe Benny pray know they
328. 13:38did pray and you know what everybody has
329. 13:41their way to communicate with God you
330. 13:43don't know what they had in mind one of
331. 13:45the thing that amazes me I my brother
332. 13:48left me a letter my book and I put in my
333. 13:50book he wrote it the day before we
334. 13:53killed him
335. 13:54in the letter he said if I die do not
336. 13:57worry I will go to heaven I'm prepared
337. 14:00for that Wow I never once was okay to
338. 14:04die why was he okay I don't know maybe
339. 14:08go to put it on your heart so I feel
340. 14:12like sometimes people think like oh if I
341. 14:13leave then I was more fortunate and
342. 14:16maybe want her to be better no really I
343. 14:19still again heaven is much better than
344. 14:21where we are now but if you desire so
345. 14:24much to leave keep knocking the door and
346. 14:28if God wishes he maybe we'll put it on
347. 14:31your heart that it's okay to go insane
348. 14:35my brother went through so I don't think
349. 14:37look at me I prayed better I just feel
350. 14:40like maybe God knew they were much
351. 14:43better and I still have work to do
352. 14:45and I mean it with all my heart but I'm
353. 14:48so glad know that I live I'm so glad I
354. 14:51came to see that God is real and there
355. 14:54is heaven after this and I know what I
356. 14:57know and he need that so much to remind
357. 15:00people don't be distressed don't worry
358. 15:03don't lose heart don't be troubled I am
359. 15:06here with you just do your part and when
360. 15:08the time comes you can pass on in peace
361. 15:11even if you are dying one of the things
362. 15:13again Paquito as all my brothers she'll
363. 15:16tell me today they told me when they
364. 15:18were killing him can we look at them in
365. 15:20the face and say I know where I'm going
366. 15:22but what about you
367. 15:23I'm like my brother was scared I just
368. 15:27wonder why the courage to look at people
369. 15:31and tell them I know I'm going in front
370. 15:33of his death I saw like this trend
371. 15:36people can have is really between them
372. 15:38and God
373. 15:38most important thing is how are we
374. 15:41living today
375. 15:42are we encouraging other people to do
376. 15:44good could be good and ourselves of
377. 15:46course we for work as a mother and
378. 15:49father and a wife as a husband as a
379. 15:52writer you know are we doing good with
380. 15:55directing or energy to build or to
381. 15:57destroy and in that again I hope that
382. 16:00throughout my my retreat I spend more
383. 16:03time you know at the end half really one
384. 16:06evening and one morning until 1:00 until
385. 16:092:00 because people need to tell me when
386. 16:12I eat I still do I speak for an hour
387. 16:15like a keynote speech and people claim
388. 16:17like that's it you know we can't have
389. 16:19you to ask you questions I'm like hmm
390. 16:21let me think about it Rick maybe
391. 16:24something I can stay longer so we can
392. 16:26have more sessions and people can ask
393. 16:28their questions to and share with me but
394. 16:31especially I can speak about more thing
395. 16:32the love of God there's almost amount of
396. 16:35God
397. 16:35you know so I very much look forward to
398. 16:39this I can't wait to attend people want
399. 16:42to register how do they do that my
400. 16:45website immaculately calm I am calm and
401. 16:54then you can work retreats and then you
402. 16:56will see them listed well thanks for
403. 16:58joining us immaculately before we sign
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419. 17:32today thanks to Elizabeth Elliott for
420. 17:35producing this episode thanks for
421. 17:37listening
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423. 17:44I
424. 17:47you
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