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"I'm QUITTING!" Gary Stevenson vs Piers Morgan On Wealth, Economic Growth & Elon Musk — Transcript

by Piers Morgan Uncensored · 10,895 words · 1,612 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Why are you so defensive?
0:01>> Because you're asking me very personal
0:02questions.
0:04>> You write a book about taking money off
0:05the rich. I say, "How rich are you?"
0:07>> All right. So, if it's not personal, if
0:10it's not personal, please. If you tell
0:11me how much you're worth, I will tell
0:12you how much I'm worth.
0:13>> Go on.
0:14>> If I tell rich I am,
0:15>> you'll tell me how rich you are. To the
0:17nearest five.
0:18>> Uh, nearest five.
0:20>> Promise.
0:22>> Go on then.
0:24Gary Stevenson is a former financial
0:26trader, a best-selling author, and a
0:28self-styled inequality economist. He's
0:30built a rockstar following online for a
0:33Serbic commentary delivered with passion
0:35from the unique standpoint of a
0:36multi-millionaire city trader turned
0:38heel on the system which made him. But
0:40of course, with a great following comes
0:42great animosity. Stevenson's critics say
0:44he's overstating his own success as a
0:46trader while transposing left-wing
0:48politics for real economics and
0:50manufacturing poverty porn from a
0:53position of personal comfort. There is a
0:56consensus that the neoliberal model has
0:58broken and it's not consensus where from
1:01people like Gary Stevenson or where's
1:02the consensus? Where's the academic
1:04consensus here?
1:04>> Uh I think the academic consensus is
1:06among economists who aren't working for
1:08the government. I think they're all
1:09looking at government decision. Gary
1:10Stevenson as a sort of pseudo academic
1:12economist or a
1:13>> I don't think he's pseudo academic. I
1:15think he's literally an economist.
1:16That's his job.
1:17>> What about you mention?
1:19>> It's not his job. He's a city trader. He
1:20studied an undergraduate degree in
1:22economics.
1:22>> Right.
1:23>> Okay. He's he's not a professional
1:24economist.
1:25>> He would just say, well, I've bet money
1:27on my predictions. Uh I'm rich,
1:29therefore I'm always right. The trouble
1:31is just obviously nobody can verify
1:32that.
1:33>> I saw some guy, I don't know his name.
1:35He was on Twitter. Skinny little
1:38Well, whatever your personal
1:40view of Stevenson, there's no question
1:41that many people do find him inspiring.
1:43Many of the issues he talks about
1:45clearly resonate with the everyday
1:46complaints of working people both in the
1:48US and the UK. His rise to fame
1:50coincides with a red-hot stock market
1:53which puts vast wealth on the ledges of
1:55a small group of tech barons while
1:57actual wages stagnate. The economy might
1:59be growing nicely on paper, but
2:01everything seems to cost more and young
2:03people can't afford to buy a house or
2:04start a family. Well, last week,
2:06President Trump was revealed to have
2:07earned 1.4 4 billion from his digital
2:10currency trading business since
2:11returning to office. Everybody benefits
2:14from rising stock markets, he said in
2:15response. But do they? Well, Gary
2:18Stevenson has a new documentary out on
2:19channel 4. It's called How to Get Filthy
2:21Rich. And among among other issues, he
2:24calls for a wealth tax.
2:27>> My proposal is a 2% tax on wealth of
2:30above 10 million.
2:31>> Absolute populist clap trap.
2:32>> People are having to make a decision on
2:34whether they eat or whether they stay
2:36warm. Why is it only rich people are
2:37supposed to not look out for their own
2:39interests? Is everyone else looking out
2:40for them?
2:42>> Well, the idea of windfall taxes on the
2:44filthy rich is about to become a big
2:45dividing line between Republicans and
2:47Democrats in the run-up to the next
2:48election. It's previously been a
2:50preferred policy of our next prime
2:52minister Andy Bernham. Although
2:54reportedly he will start with a bigger
2:56inheritance tax instead. At the heart of
2:58that debate is the age-old question of
3:00whether vast wealth trickles down to
3:02everybody else. Does a rising tide lift
3:05all boats? Or should we trust the
3:06government to take some money out of
3:08their bottomless pockets and spend it on
3:10everybody else? And above all, are we
3:12now living in a new era of greed is
3:14good? Or as many people are warning, are
3:16we heading towards a revolt against the
3:19revoltingly rich? Well, joining me now
3:21is the former financial trader,
3:22inequality economist Gary Stevenson. In
3:24a moment, we'll be joined by two
3:26high-profile defenders of free market
3:28capitalism. uh Tom Ellsworth, the PBD
3:31podcast contributor, also known as the
3:32BISD dog, and Christian Nimitz, he's the
3:35editorial director at the Institute of
3:37Economic Affairs. So, welcome to all of
3:38you. Gary, great to have you back on
3:40Uncensored. Our last interview got
3:42everybody going and and a lot of people
3:44watched it. Just in simple terms, what
3:48is the documentary about?
3:50>> Documentary is a snapshot of the
3:52country, what's happening with the
3:53economy. Um people are struggling in
3:56many cases. I went around the country up
3:57and down talking to ordinary people.
4:00We're talking about their problems.
4:01Talking to some very wealthy people. We
4:03spoke to one billionaire u people who
4:05don't like my ideas about wealth taxes.
4:08Really, we're just trying to paint a
4:09picture that explains what's happening,
4:12challenges my ideas, and really puts to
4:14the country the question of what do you
4:15want to do? Because I think we're here
4:16at this crucial moment. Obviously, we
4:18all know there's about to be a new prime
4:19minister, and I think there is a public
4:21discussion about where do we go next?
4:23Um, and I wanted to be part of that. And
4:25really I want to use it to persuade the
4:27country we need to do something about
4:28the wealth of the very rich.
4:29>> We've had some like seismic shocks as a
4:32country in the last 10 years. Brexit was
4:34one um you know I think most people look
4:37at it and think it's certainly not been
4:39a success to put it mildly um and was a
4:42self-inflicted injury if you like on our
4:45economy. The pandemic the co pandemic
4:48was a huge blow to global economy
4:51obviously. Um, and then you've got, you
4:54know, war in Ukraine, war in Iran, all
4:55these things, they all have an impact.
4:57Now, in history, these things happen and
4:59governments have to deal with them, but
5:01they've been particularly big hits on
5:03the global economy generally. So, the
5:06people that criticize you, I've heard
5:07them say, well, okay, but what he's
5:10saying is it's all the fault of the
5:12rich, right? If only the stinking rich,
5:15the billionaire tech guys and so on,
5:17just distributed their cash better, then
5:20all the problems would be solved. when
5:21in fact it's been incompetent
5:24governments who've mismanaged things,
5:25made bad decisions like Brexit and so
5:28on. You know, do you understand that
5:29argument that in a way you singled out
5:31the baddies to be in a way these rich
5:34guys who've been very successful, many
5:35of them employ thousands of people. They
5:37pay you sometimes billions in tax. Why
5:40are they the bogeymen for you and not
5:43other things that could be perhaps even
5:45bigger contributors?
5:46>> Yeah, I think the first thing to say is
5:47I've got nothing against rich people.
5:48You know, I'm quite a rich person
5:49myself. You know, I think most people
5:51would be rich if they could. You know,
5:52this is not about attacking rich people,
5:54but it is about trying to understand
5:56what is going wrong with our economy,
5:58you know. So, I quit my job in 2014. I
6:00used to work in markets and I didn't
6:01start speaking publicly until 2020.
6:04That's when I started my YouTube
6:05channel. That's when I made my first
6:06YouTube video. And the reason I did that
6:08is because at the beginning of COVID, we
6:09knew governments were going to give out
6:11an enormous amount of money. UK
6:12government gave out a trillion pounds.
6:13That's £20,000 per person. If you did
6:16the analysis on where that money was
6:17going to end up, you could see very very
6:19clearly from the very beginning that
6:21that money would go to the richest
6:22people in society. Now I'm going to ask
6:24you a question, right? Imagine we paused
6:26the economy now for two years and during
6:28that period of time transferred a
6:29trillion pounds from the government to
6:31the richest people in society. What do
6:32you think would happen to ordinary
6:34living standards? They're going to fall,
6:36right? This was what drove me, the
6:38reason I started my YouTube channel, the
6:39reason I do everything that I do is
6:40because I could see at the beginning of
6:42COVID, we were going to have a cost of
6:44living crisis, an inflation crisis, a
6:46house price crisis, a stock price
6:47crisis, a gold price crisis. If you
6:48don't believe that, go and watch my
6:50video from June 2020. I predicted all of
6:52these things. If you do not do anything
6:54about rapidly growing inequality, you
6:57will see rapidly growing poverty. That
6:58doesn't mean
7:00>> But again, I would say that that was in
7:02a way you could argue that was the
7:03incompetence of the government of the
7:05day. successive governments in dealing
7:08with the pandemic and it was dealt with
7:09in very different ways by countries
7:10around the world and some did a lot
7:12better than others and people think that
7:14the lockdowns and you know various
7:17things contributed to the fact that we
7:19screwed ourselves to a certain degree.
7:22So you know my question again would be
7:24of course if you dished out a trillion
7:26dollars to very wealthy people that
7:28would impact negatively on everybody
7:30else. Conversely, if you just took a
7:33trillion dollars from wealthy people and
7:35gave it out to a lot of people with no
7:37money, your belief is that would lead to
7:40a more equal playing field, whatever. A
7:41lot of people think that wouldn't
7:42happen.
7:43>> No, that's that's not what I'm trying to
7:44do. I'm not trying to take money from
7:45the rich and give it to the poor.
7:46Listen, 30 years ago,
7:48>> you're not Robin Hood.
7:49>> Listen, 30 years ago, we had a situation
7:50where ordinary people, people like my
7:52dad, could work a regular job, 20 grand
7:54a year, buy a house.
7:55>> What did he do, your dad?
7:56>> He worked for the post office for 35
7:57years. And we had a government that
7:58owned a huge amount of wealth, plus 100%
8:00of GDP. In the last 40 years, that
8:03ability for working-class people to own
8:04assets has disappeared. And the
8:06government wealth has dropped from plus
8:07100% of GDP to negative 100% of GDP. I
8:10am not trying to redistribute wealth.
8:12The redistribution of wealth is
8:13happening. 40 years ago, the
8:15working-class owned wealth, the middle
8:17class owned wealth, and the government's
8:19owned wealth. Government is bankrupt.
8:20Working class is bankrupt. Middle-ass
8:22people struggle to own homes. That
8:23wealth is not disappearing. It is
8:24accumulating by the very rich. I am not
8:27trying to redistribute wealth here. The
8:28reason I care about wealth inequality is
8:30because I want ordinary people to be
8:32able to afford to own wealth. It's as
8:35simple as that.
8:36>> Okay, let's bring in uh our other
8:38guests. Uh Christian Neitz, welcome to
8:41Uncensored. What's your reaction to what
8:45Gary just said?
8:46>> Well, we've had 18 years of almost
8:48complete economic stagnation. Most
8:50people are not much better off than they
8:52were in 2007. And so it's not surprising
8:55that lots of people different parts of
8:57the ideological political spectrum are
8:59thinking about why is that? Why did that
9:01happen? Uh so therefore we agree on part
9:03of the diagnosis something needs to
9:05change. Something isn't quite right. I
9:06don't buy Gary's explanation for it. I
9:09don't buy that wealth inequality is the
9:11issue for the simple reason that wealth
9:12inequality is not particularly high in
9:14this country and it's not rising. So if
9:16you look at the the top 1% of the wealth
9:18distribution, the wealthiest 1% in the
9:20country, they hold about 22% of the
9:23total wealth. And that figure has been
9:25almost completely flat for more than 20
9:27years. It is now actually lower than it
9:30was for most of recorded history for
9:32more than it's no lower now than it was
9:35throughout most of the 20th century. And
9:37it's far lower than it is in most other
9:39developed countries. That is really not
9:41the issue. It's actually something much
9:43more simple than that. The reason why
9:45the economy doesn't grow and the reason
9:47why real wages for most people don't
9:49grow is that we're not building
9:50anything. We've got the lowest level of
9:52housing supply in the developed world,
9:54we just need to build some houses like
9:55everybody else. It's as simple as that.
9:57And then you could again have a
9:59situation like what you've described
10:01with your father being able to afford a
10:03house on a normal salary. Yes, that was
10:06once the norm and it should be the norm
10:08again. It is still the norm in quite a
10:10lot of places. It's just you know when
10:12when you have 40 years of uh of
10:15abnormally low growth in the housing
10:17stock then you are going to see problems
10:19like that. We need to do what
10:21governments of all shades labor to uh
10:23Tory Lipum coalitions what they've all
10:25said they've all said we want to build
10:27um we we need to uh increase the housing
10:30stock. It's just that every time you
10:32then have some nimbies complaining
10:33saying no not here and not there either
10:35then governments panic and roll back and
10:37don't do anything. We really just need
10:39to override nimi objections and build
10:42some houses. It's as simple as that.
10:43Build houses, build infrastructure, do
10:45the usual thing that make economies
10:46grow. Tom Ellsworth, welcome to our
10:48sensor. You've been nodding away there.
10:50So you you you agree with what Christian
10:52is saying?
10:55>> Yes. [clears throat] And we've seen that
10:56in the United States. If you take a look
10:58at the Boomer generation, a significant
11:00amount of the Boomer's wealth is their
11:01home. And yes, they've got 401ks and if
11:04they were fortunate, had a pension or
11:06had an IRA that they built. But what
11:08they most have is the value of their
11:10home. What we need is the affordable
11:12housing in this country. And that's
11:14what's going to correct it. It's not to
11:16put a microscope on the the
11:18entrepreneurial set, many of whom have
11:20built billions of dollar fortunes, on
11:23success, building jobs, building
11:25products, and in biotech, medicine, and
11:27technology that we all enjoy, and it's
11:29improved our life. I don't think it's
11:30the focus on that. The focus here is
11:33there is an affordability crisis.
11:35There's things that have to happen and
11:36we have to improve it. But like when we
11:38had steroids in baseball, we didn't
11:40throw away baseball. We got rid of the
11:42steroids and brought a grand game back.
11:44And I think smart people can do the same
11:46thing here. Capitalism lifted more
11:48people out of poverty over time than any
11:50other system. So let's figure out how to
11:52correct it. You have functions that we
11:55look at, and I'll give you two examples.
11:57There was just a report that came out of
11:59the Fed that pointed out that the 7
12:02million immigrants between 2021 and
12:042024, and by the way, that's the Fed
12:07number. There are larger numbers bandied
12:09about in the media. I'm sure you've seen
12:10them. They came in and they took housing
12:14and so it increased the demand for
12:16housing which caused the price for the
12:18housing to go up. So the challenge that
12:20you have there is that you've got a
12:22whole set of people that were looking
12:25for housing and rents were up and the h
12:28price of houses were up. The other part
12:30of the report was that the financial
12:32policy which was the government making a
12:34mistake exactly what you commented Piers
12:37the government made a horrible mistake
12:38and created runaway inflation under
12:40Biden and that increased the price of
12:43assets. Gary who describes himself as an
12:46economist certainly understands that
12:48that what happened was the asset costs
12:50themselves values were inflated by that.
12:53So now you have those two things. If we
12:56look at Austin, Texas, we can see how if
12:58you leave the system alone, it can
13:00correct. You had in Austin when
13:02announcements were coming from Oracle
13:04and HP and others in 2019 2020 that they
13:08were going to move away from California
13:10because they were upset about uh-oh
13:12taxation and regulation and they were
13:14going to move to Texas. Well, guess
13:16what? In the Austin, Texas area,
13:18builders saw that as opportunity and
13:21started building and extending the
13:23housing supply in Austin. There was a
13:25price spike during COVID, but as the
13:28building continued and the supply came
13:31on the market, prices today are down 15
13:34to 20% in Austin from their high. And
13:37they still say there's an estimated 15
13:40houses 15,000 housing unit shortage in
13:43Austin. So, in other words, you see, if
13:45you leave the system, it can go there.
13:47Now, we need government not to do what
13:50Biden did and not to do what the
13:52inflation did, but I don't want to just
13:54tax the wealthy and then hand it to the
13:57government where as we've seen in
13:58Minnesota's um uh learning centers and
14:02in California's hospices, fraud gets
14:05created. I won't don't want to just give
14:07that to the government that I already
14:09don't trust to do good things with money
14:11and then trust them to bring it back to
14:13the people that need it. No, I think if
14:16we get out of the way and with
14:18regulation and move things more clearly,
14:21I think you get it and that's what I
14:23agree with and that's why I was nodding.
14:25>> Okay, Gary, your response.
14:28>> I mean, I wish getting out of the way
14:29worked. Um, we've been getting out of
14:30the way in this country for a long, long
14:32time and we've moved from a situation
14:33where ordinary working people can afford
14:35housing, pension, education, healthcare
14:38to a situation where half the country
14:39can't simultaneously feed the kids and
14:41turn the lighting on. Um, listen, I've
14:44been betting on this for years and years
14:45and years and years and years and I've
14:46made millions of pounds as a trader. I
14:48made millions of pounds since I've quit.
14:49Betting on what's going to happen.
14:51Listen, we can see that the wealth is
14:53being transferred. You know, ordinary
14:55people used to be able to afford homes.
14:57Governments used to own wealth. That
14:59wealth is gone now. You cannot run your
15:01wealth down forever. Now that is gone.
15:03There is only three choices. Three
15:04choices for every government in the
15:06world. Three choices for the British
15:07government. Three choices for the
15:08American government. significantly
15:10increased taxation on the very rich,
15:12significantly increased taxation on
15:14working people or dismantling of the
15:15welfare state. I guarantee you, I
15:18absolutely guarantee we are going to see
15:19some combination of those three things.
15:21And I want to make it clear, I'm not
15:22trying to raise taxes and give it to the
15:24government. The reason this is tax
15:25wealth not work is because working
15:27people are paying 50% while billionaires
15:29are paying nothing. If you don't change
15:31>> and Gary, where where is your philosophy
15:33worked around the world? In this country
15:35right here, Pier, in this country right
15:37here, in this country and in the US, in
15:39the 30, 40 years after World War II, the
15:41golden age of capitalism, we were taxing
15:43the wealth at 90%. We taxing the Beatles
15:4695%. Yeah. 19 for you and one for me.
15:49Listen, we did it. And that was
15:50>> But that drove many people to leave the
15:52country
15:52>> and it drove ordinary people to be able
15:54to buy houses,
15:55>> right? But if you drive all the wealth
15:56creators out of the country,
15:59>> how is that good for tax wealth not
16:01work? Tax I'm not trying to tax anybody.
16:03But there was a massive migration of
16:05wealthy people when taxes went to 95%.
16:07They all just buggered off. How does
16:08that help?
16:09>> Listen, I'm not talking about taxing
16:11work. I'm talking about taxing asset
16:12hoarding. Listen,
16:14>> when I ask you to site a time or place
16:16this has worked, you chose a period when
16:18we when we tax people at 95%.
16:20>> So you don't think it was a good economy
16:21in the US?
16:21>> Well, I just don't think you can with a
16:23straight face say you're not about, you
16:24know, taxing the rich when you look back
16:26to the golden period in your eyes as
16:28being when we tax the rich 95% of their
16:30income. No, I think we should tax the
16:31super rich at much much higher rates.
16:32>> What would you tax them at? 95%.
16:35>> At the moment. All right. What's the
16:36average passive income of a billionaire?
16:38>> So, say that again.
16:39>> What's the average passive income as a
16:40as a percentage rate of a billionaire?
16:43>> You tell me.
16:43>> So, I interviewed a billionaire for my
16:45documentary, Bassim Hadar. He says he
16:46doesn't take less than 15%.
16:48>> So, if you're the poorest billionaire in
16:50the US and you got a wealth of $1
16:52billion, at 15% you are going to be
16:54making $150 million a [clears throat]
16:56year, $3 million a week, right? If we
16:59don't do it and these guys at the moment
17:00are unted they're paying
17:01>> why why shouldn't they make that kind of
17:03money
17:04>> because if you allow them to make that
17:05kind of money and you do not tax it then
17:07over time they will buy more and more
17:08and more of the assets and assets such
17:10as housing will become unaffordable to
17:12ordinary people listen you cannot
17:14simultaneously have an untaxed
17:16billionaire class and an asset holding
17:18middle class you must choose
17:19>> okay Christian I mean look there'll be a
17:20lot of people watching this in America
17:22in the UK who'll be nodding along going
17:25yeah you know why should super
17:27billionaires not just pay a bigger slice
17:29of the pie and help out those less
17:31fortunate.
17:32>> Well, but they are I mean not
17:33specifically on asset ownership. We
17:35don't right now we don't have a wealth
17:36tax. We don't have a tax that meets the
17:39textbook definition of a wealth tax. But
17:41of course we tax the wealthy in lots of
17:43different ways. And these 90% rates that
17:46you mentioned, nobody actually paid
17:48those. That was a headline rate with
17:50lots of deductions and ways around it.
17:52And uh the total tax take in the 1950s
17:55and60s was far lower than it is today.
17:58We are now at historic peaceime highs.
18:00We have historically high abnormally
18:03high level of taxation and government
18:05spending right now. It's going to even
18:07in the last 6 years compared to just
18:09before the pandemic we now have
18:10government spending of 45% of GDP up
18:13from about 40%. Uh where again you have
18:16to ask where do we see the improvement?
18:17Where are the public services uh that
18:19that have improved? uh taxes are already
18:21abnormally high. Uh and when it comes to
18:24and okay this is mostly income and
18:26consumption but we also have taxes on
18:28assets. We have capital gains tax. We
18:30have inheritance tax. We have uh
18:32transfer taxes. So stamp duty on on uh
18:35share ownership transfer. None of those
18:37are technically wealth taxes but we have
18:40lots of say uh roundabout ways of taxing
18:44wealth. And actually Britain already
18:45raises more from these taxes than other
18:48economies in the OECD including actually
18:50countries that have a technical wealth
18:52tax. So Switzerland has one uh they
18:54raise about 1% of GDP from from their
18:56wealth tax but they have other in other
18:58ways they are they have a tax system
19:01that is much lighter on um either the
19:04income rich or the asset rich. So if we
19:06could import the Swiss system uh
19:08wholesale with the wealth tax, then yes,
19:10I would take that as a package deal, but
19:12not the wealth tax in isolation. In
19:14isolation, [clears throat] that's a
19:15terrible idea. I mean, wealth taxes,
19:17that's the thing about them. They have
19:18been tried many, many times before. This
19:20is not a remotely new idea. Until the
19:22early '9s, half of Western Europe had
19:24wealth taxes. I grew up in a country
19:26that had a wealth tax at the time. There
19:28are good reasons why they were
19:29abolished. The reason is simply that
19:31they are complete bureaucratic
19:32nightmares. you uh the you barely raise
19:35any money once you subtract the the
19:38bureaucracy cost the cost of simply
19:40valuing all the assets that alone that
19:43swallows up that requires such a massive
19:45bureaucracy and even a lot of supporters
19:47of wealth taxes concede that point uh
19:50and that's why so even um Gabriel Zukman
19:52the economist I think you had him on
19:54your channel he is the guru of wealth
19:56taxation even he conceds that point even
19:59he said wealth taxes so far have been a
20:02failure Yeah, we we perfect we are in
20:04complete agreement on this. The uh the
20:07only point where on which I differ from
20:10his views is that he thinks it's going
20:11to work next time. He says he thinks
20:13well we just we we just have to tweak it
20:15a little bit. Real wealth taxes have
20:16never been tried. Next time it will be
20:18great. Whereas I'm saying what we've
20:19seen that's as good as it gets.
20:21>> Tom, you know, it's interesting in in
20:22New York. I go there a lot and you've
20:24got Mayor Zoran Mandani who, you know,
20:27crashed into power and took everyone by
20:29surprise and has carried on surprising
20:32people. A lot of people are liking what
20:34they hear from him. This was his 250th
20:36birthday message to the United States.
20:38It went viral at the weekend.
20:41As we mark 250 years, what do we see? We
20:46see a city of contradictions within a
20:48nation of contradictions. We see the
20:51wealthiest country in the history of the
20:52world. One where children go to sleep
20:55hungry while the world's first
20:56trillionaire hungers for more. We see
20:59monopolies that dominate every industry
21:02and oligarchs who buy elections. We see
21:05mass agents terrorizing our streets,
21:07eating food cooked by our undocumented
21:09neighbors before spiriting them away in
21:11unmarked vans. We see a nation whose
21:14immense wealth has been built by those
21:16with callous dirt streaked hands, those
21:19who toil on factory floors and chisel
21:21into stone. And we see a nation that has
21:24allowed so much of that wealth to be
21:25held instead in the soft hands of a
21:28precious few.
21:29>> I mean Tom, you know, it could be
21:32American version of Gary there. [snorts]
21:36No, very much so. And as a matter of
21:38fact, there are some contradictions in
21:40there. Uh he was pointed out on social
21:42media that he was actually sitting at
21:44the desk backwards. Apparently that's
21:46George Washington's desk, one of the
21:48artifacts of the early capital in New
21:50York. and he was actually sitting there
21:52backwards. Uh he later came out and
21:54said, "Oh, no, no. That was supposed to
21:55be symbolic." Well, we're not buying it.
21:57Just like people are not buying the rest
21:59of the story. Down here in Florida, we
22:02are seeing people move from New York.
22:04And I'm not talking about billionaires.
22:06I'm not talking about Citadel. I'm
22:08talking about people that are coming
22:10down here that are saying, "What's about
22:12to happen to my home and the property
22:14tax in New York?" And a gentleman that
22:16said, "I was a plumber. I had three
22:19units that I was renting in Jamaica and
22:21then I had a house that I'd stayed in so
22:24many years in Atoria. I have found out
22:26with the rent controls and things you're
22:28going to have, I have to get out now
22:30because we're all assuming that the
22:32property values are going to go down
22:33because of the rental environment that
22:35Mandami is going to create. Well, that
22:37may make it nice for people to find
22:39cheap housing, but what will the quality
22:41of that housing be? And those very
22:43people, regular middle class people
22:46looking for retirement that are
22:47prematurely selling their real estate
22:49and coming down to Florida. Well, I've
22:51seen it with my own eyes. And in terms
22:53of wealth tax, Christian, I'll tell you
22:55something that just broke over the
22:57weekend. Ro Kana, who PICE, I know you
23:00know him, politician from California,
23:02proponent of the wealth tax that's on
23:04the ballot coming in November. Over the
23:06weekend, he said, "It's not
23:08billionaires. I'm taking it all the way
23:10down to 50 million. This is exactly what
23:13people said that as soon as you give the
23:15government a knob, they're going to turn
23:17it and they're going to turn it against
23:18the middle class. $50 million
23:22in they haven't even got to the election
23:24yet and it's already $50 million. The
23:26good news they're taxing the rich. The
23:28bad news tomorrow you're rich,
23:31>> right? Well, that's an interesting
23:32question, Gary, because what is your
23:34idea of rich? I mean, let me be blunt.
23:36How much are you worth, for example? I
23:38haven't got a spreadsheet, but um I'm
23:39not
23:40>> You know what you're worth? I don't I
23:42don't know what I'm worth. Listen, I'm a
23:43millionaire. I'm a multimillionaire.
23:45>> You know what? You presuming you know
23:45what taxes you pay and what income
23:47that's based on them.
23:48>> That's a question for my accountant to
23:49be honest. Um are you shy about
23:51revealing enough? I don't have to work
23:53again. I can go to Nando whenever I
23:55want.
23:55>> Okay, let me give you a ball. Are you
23:56Are you 5 million, 10 million, 20
23:58million, 50 million?
23:59>> Oh, how much are you worth?
24:01>> Uh well, you you go first.
24:02>> No, you're asking the question. You go
24:04first.
24:04>> Because you're the ones written. How
24:05much are you worth? You've written the
24:06whole book about wealth taxes. I'm not
24:08That's not my appears. That's a personal
24:10question. How much are you worth?
24:11>> Well, no, I'm asking you.
24:12>> How much are you worth?
24:13>> When you have your own show, you can get
24:14me on and ask me.
24:15>> Well, listen. I'll show you mine if you
24:17show me yours.
24:17>> Why you Why are you uncomfortable about
24:19just just saying what it is?
24:20>> Because that's a personal question,
24:21mate. Listen, I'm a millionaire.
24:23>> You're writing a whole book in which you
24:24want people like me to pay more tax.
24:26Fine.
24:27>> So, you're worth more than 10.
24:28>> More than
24:29>> Well, we're worth more than 10.
24:31>> More than
24:32>> 10 million quid. Uh well, I won't go
24:34into the details, but I certainly
24:36should. I certainly think you are you
24:37are aiming people like me. So, I think I
24:40don't think it's an unreasonable
24:41question given that you're the one that
24:44wants to make people like me, which is
24:46fine. I've got no problem with you
24:48wanting to do that. But it's interesting
24:49to me that you're a little bit diffident
24:51about where you place yourself in the
24:53world.
24:53>> Because Pier, I'll be honest, Pier, I'm
24:54sick of this. I'm tired. I'm tired. I
24:56come out every day. I bet on the
24:58collapse of our society. I'm right every
25:00year. I don't want it to collapse. And
25:01every day it's the Gary
25:03Stevenson show. I'm bored of it. I'm
25:04bored.
25:05>> You literally do the Gary Stevenson show
25:07>> and the Gary Stevenson show is about
25:08>> and you've got a documentary which you
25:10want to hammer rich people and make them
25:11pay more tax.
25:12>> Listen, it's about economics education.
25:13Listen, the
25:14>> I have no problem with you wanting to do
25:16that. But it is a little bit
25:18contradictory that you're so reluctant
25:20to tell us at least what your purpose.
25:23>> If your house is on fire and the fireman
25:25comes, do you ask him how much he's
25:27worth?
25:28>> Well, there's no parallel, is there?
25:29>> No, there is because that's what I am.
25:31Listen, I'm the best inequality
25:32economist in this country and I'm
25:33telling you very clearly if you do not
25:34fix this, poverty will explode. And it's
25:36listen, it's up
25:37>> when you say that. Okay, look, but look,
25:38when you say that, and there are people
25:39that agree with you, but there
25:41interestingly to me, people on the left
25:43have criticized you. So, Professor
25:44Richard Murphy, political economist and
25:46founder of the Tax Justice Network,
25:48>> said on his website, let's be clear
25:50about this, the wealth tax that Gary
25:52seeks to promote is not going to happen
25:54because he has no idea how it can happen
25:56and there's no one who can explain how
25:58it might work to him or for him. As a
26:01consequence, however much noise he might
26:03make, people are wasting their time
26:05supporting his cause and the other
26:07organizations promoting this idea. So,
26:09he's not on the right, he's on the left,
26:11this guy. So you've you've had criticism
26:13like that from both sides. Rory Stewart
26:16called you out as a pseudo economist.
26:18Yeah. You said his comments were
26:20scandalous and did eventually get an
26:22apology. Yeah.
26:23>> Um but you know these these allegations
26:25come at you. To me it would be like it
26:28would be a really interesting exercise
26:30to just say to people I'm worth this and
26:33I think I should pay this amount of tax.
26:35I'd find that quite powerful if you did
26:37that. But when you look a little bit
26:38shifty about it, I'm like, why go on?
26:40You are you are branding yourself the
26:42great economist of our time. Yeah. Your
26:44whole premise is taking money from
26:47wealthy people and redistributing it.
26:49Fine. But why not just be candid about
26:52your own wealth status?
26:54>> Because I'm tired, Pier.
26:55>> Well, you are tired. You should just get
26:57more sleep.
26:59>> It's not
26:59>> I'm tired. I was up all night watching
27:01England.
27:01>> Well done. Um, I come out every day and
27:04I campaign for greater taxation of the
27:05richest people in the world. And I get
27:07attacked by the richest and most
27:08powerful people in the world. And if I'm
27:10attacked you,
27:10>> if I'm totally honest,
27:11>> I'm not attacking you.
27:13>> If I'm totally honest, Pier, it's scary.
27:15It's scary being me. And it's scary
27:17being attacked by the biggest newspapers
27:18and the richest people in the world. And
27:19I don't want them to know where I live.
27:21And I don't want them to know how much
27:22I'm worth. And I don't want them to know
27:23what tax I pay. I don't want to know my
27:24mom's made the name. I don't want to
27:26know my mom lives.
27:26>> Yeah. But I think if you don't mind me
27:28saying, look, I used to run obviously
27:29daily newspaper. If you're going to put
27:31yourself up there on the parapit as the
27:33great economist of our time with all the
27:35solutions and the main solution is
27:38taking money from wealthy people,
27:40obviously they're going to get pissed
27:41off. But also they're going to want to
27:43know how does this work?
27:44>> Uh what's motivating you? How rich are
27:47you? Yeah.
27:48>> How much more are you going to pay? And
27:49all these kind of things. I don't think
27:50they're unreasonable question. I don't
27:51think it's like an attack. It's more
27:53like well come on. You're the guy that
27:54wants to be the night in shining armor.
27:57So come on
27:58>> because I don't want to be on the
27:59parapit. I wish I didn't have
28:01>> You put yourself on a parapit.
28:02>> Yeah. Listen. And what did I do before I
28:03was on the parapit? I was at university.
28:04>> You do books. You do a YouTube show. You
28:07>> Where was I before that? Where was
28:08>> I can't think of a bigger parapit.
28:10>> Where was I before that pier?
28:11>> Well, you were in the world of making
28:12money.
28:13>> No, I was at university. I was two years
28:14at Oxford studying inequality. And what
28:16I want to be to be honest is in a
28:17library with smart people figuring out
28:19how to build a wealth tax.
28:20>> But nobody's forcing you to do to do
28:22high-profile stuff.
28:23>> No, nobody I tell you nobody is. Nobody
28:25is. But if I was in the university.
28:27>> So why are you complaining about it?
28:29>> No, I'm not complaining about it.
28:30Listen,
28:31>> if I was in the university,
28:32>> you're complaining a little bit like you
28:33want the old violin out. Woe is me.
28:35>> My life is tough. Everyone's criticizing
28:38which I'm like, if you're going to come
28:39out with quite dramatic economic policy
28:42and you believe fundamentally this is
28:44the solution, you've got to be prepared
28:46to take criticism for it.
28:47>> I know. And I take a lot of criticism
28:49for it. But listen, I don't do this for
28:50me. I don't do this for you. Listen, I
28:52know that if we don't deal with growing
28:54inequality, then ordinary British people
28:55will fall into further and further
28:57desperate poverty. And I know that's
28:58going to happen and I see it happening
29:00and they see it happening. I don't want
29:01it to happen. I come out here, I tell
29:03them, if you don't want your kids to be
29:05poor, you need to deal with this growing
29:06inequality. The only way to deal with
29:08that is growing taxation and and you
29:10want to know how much I'm worth. You
29:11know what I mean? You want to know who
29:12my girlfriend is, you know? Listen,
29:14>> I don't care who your girlfriend is
29:15because I don't honestly I don't really
29:16care.
29:17>> I'll be honest. Listen, I'm I'm quitting
29:18soon.
29:19>> I'm Yeah, because I'm tired of it. I'm
29:21tired of the Gary Stevenson show. I
29:22don't want it anymore. What I want is
29:24for this country not to fall into
29:25poverty. I've told my piece, if you want
29:27to understand what I think about the
29:29economy, go watch my YouTube. There's
29:30200 videos there explaining in great
29:32detail the economy.
29:33>> But but you know, a lot of economists,
29:35we've got two of them here, right? They
29:37they think a lot of what you're saying
29:39is
29:40>> is
29:40>> Yeah. And Christian Ne is paid by
29:42billionaires to to argue, oh, who funds
29:44you?
29:45>> Who pays who who funs your think tank?
29:47>> Well, I mean, we you can look at the
29:49website. uh the people who don't mind
29:51their name in the public domain, we
29:53publish them. But many don't. Many don't
29:55because they don't want just the oil and
29:57extinction rebellion showing up at your
29:58door. For some reason that you said you
30:00don't want details about you in the
30:02public domain because you have
30:03opponents. The same is
30:04>> true. All right. So, Christian is not
30:06denying or confirming whether he is paid
30:08for by billionaires. I I'm I'm not being
30:09paid for this. I sign up for free.
30:11Listen, if I was doing this for money,
30:12>> but you make you make money.
30:13>> If I was doing this for money, there'd
30:14be another book, wouldn't there, P? You
30:15know that.
30:16>> My book was the number one bestselling
30:17non-fiction book in the country last
30:18year. I could get paid a lot of money to
30:20write another book. Instead, I'm on here
30:22having you ask me about my financial
30:23situation. I don't want to be here. I
30:25don't want to be here, P.
30:26>> Well, no one's forcing you.
30:27>> No, I'm No one's forcing me, but I do it
30:29for the people of this country because I
30:30don't want them to fall into poverty.
30:32>> Yes. But my point with to you, Gary,
30:33would be you're coming out with very
30:35controversial ideas which many people in
30:39the world of economics think are simply
30:40unworkable. And that's on my left and
30:42right.
30:42>> And many people think that they are
30:43workable. Have Gabriel Zukman on.
30:45Listen, I'm the biggest public
30:47campaigner for this. I work incredibly
30:49hard to make people aware of this. I am
30:50not the guy.
30:51>> Why are you so defensive?
30:53>> Because you're asking me very personal
30:54questions.
30:55>> I saw you write a book about taking
30:57money off the rich. I said, "How rich
30:58are you?"
30:59>> So if it's not personal, if it's not
31:02personal, please how if you tell me how
31:04much you're worth, I will tell you how
31:05much I
31:05>> But I'm not the one who's coming out
31:06with all these policies wanting to take.
31:08>> You think it's not a personal question?
31:09>> I don't care.
31:10>> So tell me then.
31:11>> No, I'm asking you. I'm the interviewer.
31:13>> Listen, listen. I'm I'm tired of this.
31:15You don't have to answer. I do find the
31:17personal question.
31:17>> Overly defensive.
31:19>> Have you read my book? Have you read my
31:20book?
31:21>> Have you read my book?
31:21>> I read some of your book. Yeah.
31:22>> So, it's in there. Exactly. How much
31:24I've earned.
31:25>> It's all in there.
31:26>> Why? Why don't I just say it?
31:27>> Because I'm tired of the Gary Stevenson
31:29gossip show. Honestly, Pier, I wish I
31:30could come on here and we could have a
31:31sensible, intelligent conversation about
31:33economics.
31:34>> Yeah.
31:34>> So, what is my wealth got to do with the
31:36global economy? Pier,
31:37>> I just think it's quite interesting that
31:38some I actually think it's more
31:40interesting you don't want to say it
31:41than it would be if you did. Listen,
31:43>> if you said to me after all your stuff,
31:45trading and books and if you said I'm
31:46worth 5 million, 10 million, 20 million,
31:49I'd be like, "Yeah, listen. I'm getting
31:50older. I'm getting old."
31:52>> It's overly defensive body language and
31:54I'm going to I'm going to quit if you
31:56keep asking me these NASTY
31:57>> QUESTION. WHAT WHAT'S MAKING YOU like
31:59that? Why not just own it?
32:02>> Because I'm tired, biz. I'm tired of
32:04coming out and watching the world burn
32:05every single year and betting on it and
32:06make money on it. You know, I just I'm
32:09saying my piece. I'm educating the
32:11public. I've got a YouTube there. I've
32:12made a documentary. Go and watch it. I
32:14would like for you to watch it. I would
32:15like for you to watch it. I would like
32:16the public to understand why they're
32:17getting poorer. And then do something
32:19about it.
32:19>> Christian, you summarized Gary St. I bet
32:22money on my predictions. I'm rich,
32:24therefore I'm always right. And you're
32:26an egghehead economist with an economic
32:28101 textbook. You said that about Gary.
32:31So is that how you you view what's going
32:33on here?
32:34>> Well, that that is a line of defense
32:36that you always use. You're saying you
32:37you're betting on particular economic
32:39outcomes and make money in that way.
32:41Nobody can verify that and that's easy
32:43to say. And then
32:44>> watch my YouTube predictions. They're
32:46there. You can go and watch June 2020.
32:48My first YouTube video. I predicted the
32:49cost of living crisis, the inflation
32:51crisis. So did an IA publication at the
32:54time. That doesn't mean that you're
32:55right about the mechanism. You know, you
32:57you haven't shown that inequality is the
32:59reason for that. So of course, if you
33:00had bet on poor economic outcomes for
33:02the last 18 years, you would have been
33:04right most of the time. But this is then
33:06that doesn't mean that you're right for
33:08the right reason. It would be a bit like
33:10So somebody somebody [laughter] betting
33:11onx all of the specifics house prices
33:14austerity gold price stock price
33:17inflation crisis it's it's a lot
33:19>> we have we haven't had deflation right
33:21now has gone up gone down by a fifth
33:24>> I mean none of that would have been that
33:25difficult to predict with a pandemic
33:27>> would it
33:27>> well I made an awful lot of money
33:28predicting it just like I did in 2011
33:31>> listen it's very easy to be honest I
33:33really miss the trading floor I missed
33:34the space I missed the space where I can
33:36come on and debate people like you and
33:38you say yeah you're right for the wrong
33:39reasons and I Well, let's bet on the
33:40future then. Do you think our living
33:41standard is going to improve in this
33:42country?
33:43>> Marginally, yes. Like they have over the
33:44past.
33:45>> Okay. Well, you're going to be wrong. Do
33:46you?
33:46>> The living standards will improve. I
33:48think it depends entirely on government
33:49policy.
33:50>> What What policies are important?
33:51>> I would immediately call a referendum
33:53and take us back into the European
33:54Union.
33:54>> Okay. So, that's not going to happen.
33:56You think we're going to
33:56>> Why can't it happen?
33:58>> Well, you think it will happen?
33:59>> No. Why can't it happen?
34:00>> No, I'm not saying it can't.
34:01>> You ask me what I would do. I think
34:03that's been one of the single most
34:04self-destructive things that any
34:06government has done in my lifetime.
34:08>> Okay.
34:08And I was quite I was quite flaggmatic
34:10when it happened. I voted to remain but
34:12was happy to be proven wrong. And here
34:13we are 10 years later. It's clearly been
34:15a massively damaging act of self harm.
34:18So if I was Andy Burnham coming into
34:20number 10, I actually think given he was
34:23against it to start with, I would say,
34:25look, I'm just going to ask the British
34:26public a simple question, right? Do you
34:28still believe in this or do you think it
34:31hasn't worked? It's been an act of self
34:33harm. I'll ask the question and if you
34:35overwhelmingly
34:36>> Yeah. say it's you think it's been a bad
34:39thing, then we'll go we'll go back into
34:41the European Union. We'll try and reform
34:43them from within.
34:44>> What you're saying is you're not going
34:45to make a prediction because
34:46>> I'm saying that government policy can
34:48often determine a country's economic
34:49forces.
34:50>> Yeah, I mean that's the same thing that
34:51I'm saying.
34:51>> So I think there's been we have been
34:54>> Okay, let me ask you.
34:55>> We've endured a lot of very mediocre
34:57>> consider the US and Europe which don't
34:59have the situations of Brexit. Do you
35:00think living sounds will improve in
35:01those countries?
35:02>> They might depending on the leaders and
35:04their policies. What do you think are
35:05the important policies?
35:06>> I think the important policies I mean I
35:08take a different view to you where I've
35:10not seen much evidence around the world
35:13where if all you do I'll give an
35:14example. I call it the politics of envy
35:17the VAT on on private schools when that
35:20first came out. I said well you know
35:22what happened in Greece and of course
35:23none of them knew what I was talking
35:24about. I was on question time and I said
35:26well in Greece they brought in VAT on
35:28private schools and two things happened.
35:31One, a lot of the schools shut down
35:32because it was a step too far for them
35:34on their on their financial models. And
35:36secondly, all the kids at these schools
35:38then got flooded into the state system
35:40and overwhelmed it. So it failed on
35:42every single level and it raised money.
35:46So So my point being that's what I call
35:47the politics of envy. I'm not saying I'm
35:50not saying that if you ask the British
35:51public I think there's a poll um you
35:53said there was a poll 4,142 British
35:57adults found that 75% of the public
35:59support a wealth tax along with many.
36:00I'm sure we do. If you've got no money,
36:02the first thought you might have is an
36:04envious one of people with lots of money
36:05and take some of that and redistribute
36:07it. I would say, for example, let's look
36:09at Elon Musk. Do you think he's a force
36:11for good or or bad? Put aside his
36:14comments on X
36:16>> and the political stuff, but in terms of
36:18the businesses he's created, the jobs
36:21he's created, the number of people who
36:23benefit from being in his orbit.
36:26>> Yeah.
36:26>> Would you think he's a force for and the
36:28nature of the businesses? So, so we look
36:29Neuralink, let's look at Tesla, let's
36:31look at SpaceX. You know, in other
36:33words, do you think overwhelmingly he's
36:34a force for good or not?
36:36>> So, Elon Musk is a trillionaire.
36:38>> So, if he makes
36:39>> Put that to one side for a moment. Do
36:41you think he's a force for good in job
36:42creation and the kind of businesses he's
36:44created, which he would he would say,
36:46Gary, come on, mate. What more do you
36:48want me to do? I'm bringing in green
36:50energy cars to millions and millions of
36:53people. I'm creating Neuralink so that
36:55people who are paraplegic can
36:57communicate. uh SpaceX is going to
36:59revolutionize so many things in the
37:01world. I'm using it in Ukraine so they
37:02can communicate better. I want to take
37:04us to Mars. And he said, "Gary, why do
37:06you hate me? Why do you want to take why
37:08do you want to take all my money? Why do
37:10you want to punish my success?" And I'm
37:11not sure what the answer is.
37:14>> The answer is if you have a
37:15trillionaire, these guys are going to
37:16make every year passive income something
37:19like 100 billion quid.
37:21>> Why Why is that? Why should that be
37:22yours?
37:23>> I don't want it to be mine. Why
37:25shouldn't he get the due reward for what
37:26he's creating?
37:27>> If you allow there to be untacked
37:28trillionaires, then they will be buying
37:30an enormous amount of assets every year
37:32and it will drive asset prices up and it
37:33will squeeze out other elements of
37:34society. And what you will see is what
37:36we are seeing which is the working class
37:37and the middle class and the government
37:39will lose their wealth. It's the simple
37:40math. These guys
37:41>> I think they're horrible. I horrible.
37:44Come on, let me finish. Please, please,
37:45come on. Listen, you bring me out here,
37:47let me speak, right?
37:48>> Stop playing the victim.
37:50>> It doesn't suit you.
37:51>> Listen to the playing the victim in the
37:53old violin stuff. It doesn't work with
37:54me.
37:55>> Listen, if you let this guy grow his
37:57wealth at that rate, at that rapid rapid
37:59rate in economies which are going 1 or
38:012%, then purely mathematically over the
38:03long run over even the medium run, they
38:05will own everything. This is simply a
38:06question of do you want the British
38:07public own?
38:09>> Yeah, I do. Yeah.
38:09>> And you invest to the stock market.
38:11>> Yeah, of course I do.
38:11>> What are you doing that's any different?
38:13>> I'm not a trillionaire
38:15>> and I'm campaigning for I'm campaigning
38:16for wealth tax. There's big differences.
38:18>> You're not as successful, but you are
38:20investing in companies and hoping to
38:21make a profit.
38:22>> And there's nothing wrong with doing
38:23that. is the difference is I want to
38:25have a system which does not drive
38:26average people to poverty.
38:28>> Yeah, I agree.
38:29>> Yeah,
38:29>> it's how you get there.
38:31>> Most economists I've talked to, most
38:32successful people say the best way to do
38:34that is stimulate growth.
38:36>> Most rich people tell you growth
38:37ultimately is the most potent trickle
38:39down thing any society can have. If you
38:42have economic growth, everybody will
38:44benefit.
38:45>> Do you think your viewers believe that?
38:46>> Um I think they haven't seen growth for
38:49so long they're not quite sure what it
38:50looks like or what it feels like.
38:51>> You think life is getting better for
38:52you? the average person in this country.
38:54>> I No, cuz I think we've had crap
38:55governments with crap economic policies
38:57and we've been hit by other things which
38:59have
39:00>> your plan. What's your plan? How do you
39:01fix it?
39:01>> Well, when I run for prime minister,
39:02I'll let you know my plan.
39:03>> Are you going to do that?
39:04>> Including my personal finances.
39:06>> Yeah.
39:07>> Yeah. Cuz I sincerely hope I'm more
39:08successful than you.
39:10>> Well, you probably are. We'll find out
39:11when you tell me how rich you are.
39:13>> Well, I'll do that when you tell me.
39:15>> Will you?
39:16>> Go on.
39:16>> If I tell rich I am, you'll tell me how
39:18rich you are. To the nearest five. Uh,
39:21nearest five.
39:22>> Promise.
39:24>> Go on then.
39:25>> You will.
39:26>> Go on then.
39:26>> And you won't lie. You promise.
39:28>> Why would I lie?
39:28>> All right. Five.
39:29>> Five.
39:30>> Yeah.
39:30>> That's not You've got more than 5
39:32million.
39:33>> Tell me
39:34>> more than you.
39:34>> Tell me.
39:36>> Tell you.
39:37>> Tell me.
39:38>> You said to the nearest five. I've got
39:39more than you.
39:41>> That's not to fell for my trick.
39:42>> Come on, please. It's to the nearest
39:44It's to your nearest. [clears throat]
39:45>> P. Are you lying to your audience? You
39:46promise you're tell
39:47>> I have more than you. So, so my point to
39:50you is to the nearest.
39:51>> So, my point to you, Gary, is that
39:52>> why are you lying?
39:53>> So, I'm not lying. I say it. I've got
39:55more than you. But you want to take my
39:57money. I don't want to take I'm
39:59perfectly entitled in that circumstance
40:00to ask you quite tough questions about
40:03why and why you think it will work.
40:04Particularly when economists are on here
40:06who don't think it will work. Okay.
40:08>> So, they think it it sounds you've
40:10promised me you'd tell me.
40:11>> Yeah. I just told you more than you.
40:13>> To the nearest fire.
40:14>> Let me bring in Tom. To the nearest
40:16appears to the nearest fire. Let me
40:17bring it up to compared to your That's
40:20very dishonest compared to your more
40:22than you. I'm not the one lecturing
40:24people about, you know, wealth tax.
40:26>> You lied on on your own show, P. How do
40:28you feel about that?
40:29>> I'm not lying to anyone.
40:31>> Oh, comedy.
40:32>> Uh, let me ask the Biz Doc here. Uh,
40:34Tom, how much are you worth? [laughter]
40:39>> Americans are normally quite proud,
40:40actually.
40:41>> We can
40:43Oh, boy. You know, we can have my
40:44accountant on next time. And you know,
40:46PICE, obviously, you're too successful.
40:48We should take you back to BBC and make
40:50you a weekend weatherman. We need to
40:52penalize you because you've been
40:53[laughter] so successful.
40:55>> So, no. And by the way, about Elon Musk,
40:58there's a fable here. The word
41:00trillionaire is being paraded about
41:02almost as as you know, doom porn. Oh,
41:05trillionaire. He's going to make this
41:06kind of interest. He's going to be
41:07buying this up. Let's look at Elon Musk.
41:10You brought Elon Musk, not me. Let's
41:12look at him. 2002
41:14eBay buys PayPal and then Reed Reed
41:17Hoffman, LinkedIn, Peter Theal,
41:20Palanteer, Elon Musk, they all go their
41:22way with a lot of capital. What does
41:24Elon Musk do in a matter of months? In
41:262003, he launched Tesla. In 2010, he
41:30then floated the company, IPO and
41:32American Speak. He then, what did he do?
41:36If we had said, "That's it. PayPal, uh,
41:38Tesla, you've had too much success. Time
41:41to take it. time to turn it down. You've
41:43gone far enough. We don't want you to
41:45get interest on that and do it. He
41:47didn't take the interest on that. You
41:48know what he did? He went out and built
41:50more companies including SpaceX in 2019.
41:54And you know what he did with that with
41:56Star, excuse me, Starlink specifically?
41:58Starlink. Guess what happened in 2022
42:03when Prime Minister Federov made an
42:05urgent call from the Ukraine and said,
42:08>> "Communications have been knocked out by
42:10the Russians in the early days of the
42:11war. Will
42:13>> will you give us Starlink?" Exactly. And
42:15I'm emphasizing the point. If I stop
42:18Elon Musk because I said he had too
42:19much, we never get Starlink. Yeah.
42:21>> And to say he's just got a trillion
42:24dollars. He's gonna sit on it like a
42:25mountain of money. He's going to move
42:27interest and look around and say, "What
42:29can he buy?" That is a that is a partial
42:31argument. Gary, come down to Fort
42:34Lauderdale, sit with Pat and I. Let's
42:36talk about solutions. We're trying to
42:37put it to watch.
42:39>> We run a consulting company.
42:41>> They have a very nice setup down there.
42:42I went down there a few months ago. It
42:44was great. They took very good care of
42:45me. And you'll have a good time, but
42:46it'll be an interesting debate. Um,
42:48Christian Poly Market says the next UK
42:51chancellor's check is likely to be Ed
42:53Milliband. He's just under 40% of the
42:56money that's going in on that in the
42:57prediction markets. Many seem as the
42:59ultimate green socialist, a guy that is
43:02a sort of net zero zealot um and would
43:05be a bit disastrous for us. What's your
43:07view of people like Ed Milliband?
43:10>> Well, I'm not going to comment on
43:11individual politicians. It is of course
43:13possible that um the next government,
43:16whatever the exact complexion of it is
43:18going to be, it is possible that they
43:20will be sympathetic to the idea of a
43:22wealth tax partly because it polls very
43:24well. It it does very well on Yugov and
43:27other polling companies and because they
43:29are in a difficult fiscal situation. So,
43:32uh we still have a massive budget
43:33deficit. They don't really want to raise
43:35taxes that most people can see. So it
43:37could well be that as a populist gimmick
43:39a government will say yes we will
43:40introduce a wealth tax because most
43:42people think oh that's got nothing to do
43:43with me I'll never pay it. It's just
43:45that what's then going to happen is well
43:47it could be the same thing as in the
43:491970s Labor government in the 70s also
43:51wanted to introduce a wealth tax and
43:53then once they started to look at the
43:55practicalities once they had their civil
43:57servants trying to draw up a plan they
43:59realized this isn't worth it this is
44:02more trouble than it's worth uh we we
44:03are going to need such a massive
44:05bureaucracy to do the valuation and uh
44:08that takes us back to you know I'm not
44:10interested in how wealthy either of you
44:11two are but I believe both of you when
44:13when you say that you tell the exact
44:15figure that you wouldn't know. It's just
44:16that that is true of most asset owners.
44:18They don't know the exact figure and
44:21that all of that wealth has to be value.
44:23That is the big difference between asset
44:24taxation and uh taxes on income or
44:27consumption. If I sell something to you
44:29for say £100, of course the the taxman
44:32can say right, I want 20% of that. But
44:34if you own an asset and it's never been
44:36sold or it hasn't been sold for 10 years
44:37or 20 years, whatever, how are you going
44:39to value it? you you are going to need
44:40an army of bureaucrats running around
44:42the country trying to value everything.
44:44So, how much is this building in which
44:46we're filming this? How much is this
44:47worth? I guess nobody knows. I'm sure
44:49you can find an estate agent who uh is
44:51going to value it for for a lot of
44:53money, but that is the problem with
44:54wealth taxes. You need
44:56>> So, my question, Gary, finally for you,
44:57so you've said you're worth about 5
44:59million, and your argument is the
45:01wealthy people in the world should pay
45:03that like the interest they make on that
45:05money just comes in. So, how much do you
45:07make a year from that?
45:10Um well again it's a question for my
45:11accountant isn't it? Um
45:13>> you know roughly I mean
45:14>> well I'll probably make about 5% on it
45:16would I
45:16>> 5% and do you give that away? Do you
45:18redistribute it or what do you
45:19>> No I use it for for me so I can have a
45:21family so I can have kids one day. Yeah
45:23of course.
45:24>> So you know so your lecture is to the
45:27wealthy you should give away your
45:30interest you make. But when it comes to
45:31you Gary Stevenson
45:34>> no because you've got your family to
45:36take care of. I mean, you understand
45:37people who watch that and go, "You're
45:38just a hypocrite."
45:40>> I'm not here to talk to the wealthy. I'm
45:41here to talk to your viewers. I'm here
45:43to talk to your viewers, your kids.
45:45>> I think my viewers be thinking, "Hang
45:46on. You want other wealthy people to
45:48give their interest away, but you want
45:50to keep all yours cuz you've got a
45:53family to feed."
45:54>> I'm here to talk to I'm here to talk to
45:55your viewers whose kids will live in
45:57poverty. I'm here to tell them a quite
45:58simple economic fact. might like some of
46:00the interest that you want to take away
46:01from.
46:01>> I'm here to talk to the I'm here to tell
46:03some of yours.
46:04>> I'm here to tell them the quite simple
46:05economic fact which is if we do not do
46:07anything about top 250 grand a year,
46:10isn't it?
46:10>> Just doing the math, mate.
46:11>> Listen, I'll pay my tax and I will pay
46:13my tax and if there's a world tax that
46:14affects me, I won't pay.
46:15>> I don't mean that. I mean the interest
46:16you talk about that wealthy people
46:18should pay. You mentioned with Elon
46:20Musk, he he makes all this interest. He
46:21should just give it away. But you don't.
46:23>> I'm not telling anybody to give anything
46:25away. I'm telling the poor, if you do
46:27not stand up for a fairer tax system,
46:29your kids will be poor. You need to fix.
46:31>> Here's where I agree with you. Simple as
46:32that. Here's where I agree with you. I I
46:34agree with you that there is a big
46:36poverty issue. I do agree there is a
46:38massive wealth equality issue. The the
46:41bit that I'm not so convinced about is
46:43your solution. And that's why it's an
46:45interesting debate. I like the fact you
46:47do what you do. I don't think you should
46:48give up. I think you should carry on
46:50doing what you're doing. I think you
46:51should be a bit less defensive about it.
46:52You should be a bit more open and just
46:54say, "Look, this is the deal with me."
46:55>> I think you should as well. You've
46:56promised to tell us.
46:57>> But I'm not the one doing all the books,
46:58documentaries, YouTube channels about
47:01making money for the world.
47:01>> You promised you promised today to your
47:03viewers.
47:03>> I said, "I've got more than you
47:05>> to the nearest five."
47:06>> Yeah.
47:07>> That's not a number, Pierce. Huh?
47:09>> That's not a number, Pier.
47:10>> I just don't want to make you feel bad,
47:11mate. All that hard work you put in.
47:13>> Is it really big? How big is it?
47:15>> I just You know what? Size isn't
47:17everything, Garrett.
47:18>> Yeah.
47:18>> Let's leave it there. I said absolutely
47:20no one ever. Um, lovely to see you all.
47:22Interesting debate. Don't give up. You
47:24should be do you should be stimulating
47:26this debate. I think it's interesting,
47:27but don't be quite so defensive. You
47:29don't need to be. Just put it out there
47:31what you want to do. Let the economist
47:32pick it up. And let's hopefully get a
47:35prime minister of this country in
47:36particular who can have some bloody
47:38decent economic policies which stimulate
47:40growth and help everybody. That would be
47:42great. On that positive note, I will end
47:46this debate. Thank you all very much.
47:49Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly
47:51independent. The only boss around here
47:52is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for
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48:00Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcast.
48:02And in return, we will continue our
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48:06entertain. And we'll do it all for free.
48:09Independent uncensored media has never
48:11been more critical, and we couldn't do
48:13it without you.

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