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how to trust yourself when you overthink everything: understanding OCD ft. Tara Montazeri — Transcript

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0:00A lot of people who live with OCD deal
0:01with it only in their heads and in their
0:03mind and that can feel incredibly
0:05lonely. It's [music] basically condition
0:06where you deal with either unwanted
0:08thoughts. It could be images. It could
0:10be feelings or discomfort that you want
0:13to get rid of. Sometimes I wonder how
0:15many women have ADHD or OCD or [music]
0:18another mental struggle, but they've
0:20been rewarded for it for so long.
0:21>> With OCD can feel like every little
0:23thing that someone might look at you and
0:25think [music] that's like not a big
0:26deal. Why do you care? It genuinely,
0:27I'll say this, your body responds as if
0:29it's very urgent. Community is a threat
0:32to OCD.
0:33>> Why? So, I [music] hope anyone who hears
0:34this who lives with OCD or experiences
0:37it knows that you didn't choose this and
0:39you didn't deserve any of this. And at
0:41the same time, you are deserving of
0:44living a life that feels fulfilling and
0:46whatever that may look like for you
0:47despite it with [music] it, even though
0:49it's there. I'm so excited to have you.
0:51>> Thank you. I want to give a little
0:52disclaimer to my girls before we start
0:54because this episode for my ladies
0:58listening and 7% men, this episode is
1:01not meant for you to diagnose yourself.
1:04Okay? This is not for you to diagnose
1:07your husband, your situationship, your
1:08dog, anybody in your life. Okay? We are
1:11here to well you are here to increase
1:14awareness about OCD to explain to us a
1:17little bit more about what it actually
1:18looks like and feels like
1:20>> and just just to have a conversation
1:23about it and if anyone feels identified
1:26if anything resonates let's use that as
1:29an invitation to yes
1:31>> be curious not as like a diagnosis okay
1:34that's all I want to say
1:35>> by the way thank you for that
1:37>> well I just feel like these
1:38conversations are so layered and the
1:40questions question I'm going to ask you,
1:41they lack all the nuance in the world
1:43>> cuz we can't talk to every single
1:45person, you know? I thought we could
1:47kick off with a little rapid fire.
1:49>> So, just like first thing that comes to
1:51mind and then I I'm sure we'll like
1:52unpack it all in the episode.
1:54>> Okay.
1:54>> Okay.
1:56One of the biggest myths about OCD is
1:59>> I could say so many, but I will say the
2:02common one that many people think it's
2:04just like a personality quirk, like
2:06you're just clean and organized or that
2:08it's like a fun thing to have. And I'll
2:11say this not to like start on a very
2:12dark note, but like most people that you
2:15talk to who live with OCD, not to speak
2:17for everyone's experience, would
2:18probably tell you they do not wish it on
2:20their worst enemy. It's not something
2:22they probably enjoy having. And then
2:24just to add one in there because this is
2:26a huge one. OCD is not always external
2:28and obvious. A lot of people who live
2:30with OCD deal with it only in their
2:32heads and in their mind and that can
2:34feel incredibly lonely and it isn't
2:36always external and obvious to anyone
2:38else.
2:38>> Oh my gosh, I can't wait to unpack that.
2:40And also my next one was OCD is not So
2:42you ready for that one for me?
2:43>> I'm like answering everything.
2:44>> OCD is often mistaken for
2:47>> uh I'd say generalized anxiety.
2:49Intrusive thoughts do not mean
2:53>> Intrusive thoughts do not mean that
2:55they're true or aligned with who you
2:57really are.
2:58>> Reassurance feels helpful because
3:01>> because it relieves anxiety and
3:02discomfort in the moment and it only
3:04adds to a cycle that makes usually feel
3:07worse. Overall,
3:08>> people with OCD need less blank and more
3:11blank.
3:12>> Less judgment and assumptions about
3:16their experience and more curiosity and
3:19compassion for what they're going
3:20through.
3:20>> I love that. A beautiful thing about OCD
3:23is that you're not alone. And for anyone
3:27who thinks they're alone in their
3:28experience and thinks that they're the
3:30only one going through the thoughts and
3:32themes and it's so specific, you are not
3:34alone.
3:35One thing I wish everyone understood
3:37about OCD is
3:40>> I'd go back to the beginning that it
3:42isn't always obvious and you could
3:44appear as if you're thriving externally
3:47and really really struggling with it
3:49internally and no one would ever know.
3:51>> How would you explain OCD to someone who
3:54has never experienced it? H. So, if I
3:57had to kind of put it into words that
3:59made a little more sense, OCD, I want
4:03you to imagine it's basically a
4:04condition where you deal with either
4:06unwanted thoughts, it could be images,
4:09it could be feelings or discomfort that
4:12you want to get rid of. So, as if
4:14something's stuck on you and you just
4:15can't let it go. And then as a result,
4:18we perform a compulsion or an action
4:20behavior. That's basically what a
4:21compulsion is, to relieve that feeling.
4:24So if we imagine the OCD cycle, it's
4:26basically an unwanted thought or feeling
4:28or discomfort, anxiety, and then we do
4:31something in response to try to get rid
4:33of it. And then that creates temporary
4:35relief, but then that basically feeds
4:37back into it. And so what we think is
4:39supporting us in that moment to get out
4:42of it is actually feeding into the cycle
4:43of whatever you want to call it, right?
4:45Like with kids or even adults, you can
4:47call it a monster, you can call it an ex
4:49that won't leave you alone.
4:50>> Yeah. You can call it whatever you want,
4:52but basically it's a cycle of
4:54discomfort, anxiety, whatever it may be.
4:57Relieving that, trying to relieve that,
4:59and then adding to the cycle,
5:02>> a vicious cycle of wanting certainty,
5:03too, which is really hard.
5:05>> What do compulsions look like? Because I
5:07know there are some that are more
5:09internal.
5:10>> Yes.
5:10>> And then some that are more outwardly,
5:13you know, that we can see.
5:14>> Yes. So, we have there's so many
5:17compulsions, right? Um, but I will say
5:19compulsions can be any action or
5:21behavior where the function of it is to
5:23relieve it. So some compulsions will be
5:26the ones you hear and see like you know
5:28you go check to make sure the doors are
5:29locked. Right. Right. Or reassurance
5:32seeking from a loved one constantly
5:33asking are you upset with me? Are we
5:35okay? It could be mental too where we're
5:37replaying an event or we're constantly
5:39trying to figure out the reason to
5:41something and all of that. It could be
5:43the most random thing. For example, like
5:45I'm making this up. You tap your pillow
5:48three times and then you go ask someone
5:50and then you do something like you turn
5:52the water bottle a certain way and then
5:53you say a word in your head. So I say
5:55that because someone might listen and
5:57think a certain compulsion doesn't sound
5:59like my experience, right?
6:00>> But it can be so random, but it's just
6:03about the function of it. What is the
6:04function of the behavior? And so it
6:06doesn't have to look one specific way,
6:08but what is underneath it? And that's
6:10what any compulsion can look like.
6:12>> It's not a defined list by any means.
6:14It's whatever that person is doing to
6:15seek
6:16>> momentary relief.
6:18>> Yes. And so you'll see online and I post
6:20too about like general lists of ways it
6:22may show up and like mentally reviewing
6:24things, checking all these ways, but
6:25overall it could be anything that is
6:28relieving that feeling or trying to seek
6:30certainty.
6:32>> Could someone have again this is not a
6:34diagnosis but could someone have OCD but
6:37they don't know it because their
6:39compulsions are so internal?
6:41>> Yes. And that's incredibly common and
6:44both personally for my experience that's
6:46what my life was. I work with many
6:49individuals who experience that. I know
6:50many people who message me who
6:52experienced that and generally that is
6:54incredibly common and why a lot of
6:55people with OCD don't get diagnosed
6:57later until later in life
6:59>> because it can be so internal or they
7:01may be rewarded for it. So for example,
7:03if their compulsions have helped them,
7:06you know, in their career or have helped
7:08them show up as a great friend, but
7:10internally it's really really difficult
7:12for them, that in itself wouldn't be
7:15many reasons for people to go and seek
7:18support.
7:18>> I love that you said that cuz I was
7:19going to bring that up later of, you
7:21know, I find
7:24>> there are similarities between ADHD and
7:26OCD. There are a few overlaps. Of
7:28course, they're very different, but be
7:30it the maybe overthinking, the
7:32ruminating, perfectionist tendencies,
7:35reassurance seeking, right? Like there's
7:38a need for control, a want for
7:39certainty, there are certain overlaps.
7:41>> So I'm like, oh, cuz again, not that I'm
7:45diagnosing myself, but so many times
7:46when I am consuming your content or
7:49reading more about OCD, I'm like, "Wow,
7:50I I feel so identified."
7:53>> Yes.
7:53>> So it's like they're so common. A, how
7:56do we distinguish them? B, is it common
7:58to have both?
8:00>> And C, sorry, so many questions. But
8:02going back to the perfectionist, what
8:04you were saying is
8:05>> sometimes I wonder how many women have
8:09ADHD or OCD or another mental struggle,
8:12but they've been rewarded for it for so
8:14long, which I feel like is my
8:16experience. I'm a very high achieving,
8:18high functioning Capricorn
8:20perfectionist.
8:21>> Love that. And so, you know, no one
8:24thought there was anything [laughter]
8:25wrong with me, but like inside I'm like,
8:27"Guys, I'm not okay."
8:28>> Like, I need to do this or else.
8:30>> But it's what you just said. It's like I
8:32was rewarded for
8:34>> being so type A, being so organized,
8:36getting good grades, doing everything
8:37right. It's like,
8:38>> yeah, but inside there's turmoil. And
8:40the only reason I'm doing that is
8:41because I am deadly afraid of making a
8:44mistake
8:45>> or like letting someone else down.
8:46>> Yes. I so many questions I just
8:49>> I so appreciate that and that's like so
8:51complex and I will say you know I don't
8:53have one specific answer on
8:55differentiating them but they have many
8:56similarities and very often even with my
8:59posts people in [snorts] the comments
9:00say like oh I thought this was ADHD or
9:02this and that and of course I always
9:04make it clear this is just how it can
9:05look it doesn't necessarily mean it's
9:07one or the other but especially with
9:09ADHD like rejection rejection
9:11sensitivity is such a common thing and
9:13with OCD there's the overthinking and
9:16there could feeling like you need to
9:17figure things out. So there is a lot of
9:20overlap at times and at the same time
9:22that's something I 100% if whether it's
9:24a psychiatrist or a therapist working
9:26with because it can also manifest
9:28differently for people right
9:29>> and sometimes it could be both or one or
9:31the other or it could be something else
9:33or could be other things that come up
9:35from it. Um, but I I do appreciate you
9:38mentioning that and I think many people
9:40who listen to that can relate because
9:42externally you might be rewarded or
9:45people might say that's amazing. How do
9:46you do that? And then when you're
9:48constantly rewarded for that, it's
9:49almost like how do I not keep up with
9:51that?
9:51>> Yeah.
9:52>> Right. And at the same time for many
9:54people with OCD, it could be a mental
9:56prison.
9:56>> Right.
9:57>> Right. And yeah, I had to learn how to
9:59reframe I did this in therapy a few
10:01years ago. I would talk so negatively
10:04negatively about my anxiety and my
10:06therapist was like, "Okay, we've already
10:09we know why you don't like it. We know
10:11the things [laughter] you don't like
10:12about having anxiety, being super
10:15anxious, etc. Can we just talk about a
10:18few of the things that are great about
10:19it?"
10:19>> And she made me sit and it took me a few
10:22sessions to think about what I actually
10:23liked about my anxiety.
10:26There are a few things but you know
10:28there are also beautiful things about it
10:31>> where an example for me is like I listen
10:35so carefully to what people are saying
10:37>> sometimes I almost hyperfocus on the
10:39tiny little details that maybe some
10:42people just don't care about. But I hold
10:44on to the tiny little details and then
10:46I'll be like at an airport three months
10:48later and I see this like random hot
10:49sauce and I'm like oh my god I remember
10:51she said this weird her dad loved this
10:54hot something like that and then I'll
10:56get it and then it's a beautiful thing
10:58cuz to me I'm like damn is she going to
11:00think I'm crazy that I remembered this
11:02but then my friend is like oh my god you
11:04remembered you know so I'm like wow okay
11:07>> I love that my my anxiety helps me
11:09remember really special tiny minute
11:12little thing details about people
11:14>> and then I can make them feel special.
11:17>> I'm wondering what are things about your
11:18OCD that you actually love.
11:21>> H that's a great question
11:23>> if there are any.
11:24>> If there are any I love that and I I
11:26will say and I'm sure many people with
11:28OCD can resonate that it's been such an
11:31intern. It's been confusing through my
11:33own experience because there was a point
11:36where it really took me especially after
11:37understanding it was OCD where I had to
11:39sit and think like is this part of like
11:42who I am and what I value my personality
11:44or has it been OCD and that in itself is
11:46like another layer of trying to find
11:48certainty and at the end of the day that
11:49part doesn't necessarily matter but
11:51there can be before I answer that
11:53question there can be grief with that of
11:55trying to understand the parts where
11:58>> it's held me back maybe from experiences
12:00and other parts where It's helped me
12:02show up in ways that I'm thankful for.
12:05And for me, honestly, there are similar
12:08things where like I feel like I really
12:10like to think I'm thoughtful and I
12:12remember things, but the biggest thing
12:14I'd say is really just the community of
12:16knowing that other people are not alone.
12:18And I post and people say they feel less
12:20alone, but they don't know that I then
12:22feel less alone from their comments or
12:24their experiences. And so, I think just
12:26in general, like I'll be cheesy here,
12:28the human experience of knowing that as
12:30hard as it is, we aren't alone in it.
12:32And I do post a lot of content with
12:35humor, not to dim like diminish anyone's
12:38experience or minimize how difficult it
12:40can be, but it's like when people say
12:41like I'm going to either laugh or cry,
12:44you know, like we're doing what we can.
12:46And I think that in itself can remind
12:49each other that like I'll say this, I
12:51always compare it to like the Wizard of
12:52Oz, like you know, behind the curtain
12:54you're like, "This is some random dude.
12:55Like he's really not that scary." That's
12:57how I feel about OCD specifically. And
12:59so when one other person witnesses your
13:01experience or one other person can see
13:04it or vice versa, it you're kind of
13:06taking away the curtain, pulling it back
13:08and reminding others like we're not
13:10alone in this. And so I, you know, I
13:12don't necessarily have a specific part
13:15of OCD that I love, but I do have a lot
13:18of compassion for myself because I think
13:21at the end of the day, that's me and OCD
13:23tries to make me doubt myself.
13:25>> But that in itself, I'm still pushing
13:27through and connecting with people. I
13:30kind of went all over it with
13:31>> No, I love that. I think so. I think the
13:33reason why people love you and love your
13:35content so much, one of the reasons is
13:37because you do humanize it. It's like
13:40let's just ma let's just there's an
13:42elephant in the room,
13:44>> you know, and let's just make it fun
13:45because sometimes like what else are we
13:47going to do? And we can sit here and
13:48talk about all the things that we don't
13:49like and the hard parts about it which
13:51is so important and makes people feel
13:53less alone.
13:54>> But also I think bringing a little bit
13:56of light to it is also, you know, like
13:59you said, if we don't laugh, we'll cry.
14:00So
14:00>> we we'll cry and I'm like I like to, you
14:02know, it's poked fun at me. Like I
14:03always say OCD kind of is like a bully
14:05and when you're finally like, "Oh,
14:06you're like really not that scary." I
14:08feel like I do that with grief cuz I
14:11lost my dad. So like 14 years ago
14:14>> and for so long I did not bring it up
14:16because I didn't want to make anybody in
14:18my life feel uncomfortable. Like I
14:19didn't want my friends to feel
14:20uncomfortable. And now I'm like you
14:22guys, I gave you all so much vacation
14:24time. Now I'm going to make all of you
14:26feel bad for me. And now I send them the
14:28craziest the craziest memes. And
14:30every like on Father's Day I'm like do
14:31you guys feel bad for me?
14:33>> [gasps]
14:34>> I'm like, "Listen, like I'm already
14:36going to be depressed about this for the
14:37rest of my life. I might as well just
14:39kind of make make it a little fun." And
14:42my friends are like,
14:43>> my friends are sometimes like, I I kind
14:45of wish I I miss the days when you did
14:46not make us feel bad about this. But
14:48>> you know what? times humor with
14:49something like that and I so appreciate
14:51you like sharing that with that or with
14:53OCD grief whatever it may be it like
14:55it's almost like a window to like open
14:57the conversation cuz sometimes it's hard
14:58to be like hey I I want to talk about my
15:00dad and to do that when it can feel
15:03really hard right but to like add that
15:05in there and then for someone to check
15:06in on you and then to have that
15:07conversation like I think it's those
15:08human things
15:09>> you're right these are sometimes some
15:11subjects that a lot of people don't know
15:13how to approach and a lot of people
15:15don't know how to talk about grief or
15:17mental health because maybe they've
15:18never experienced it. And I do think
15:20humor is a way to lessen the,
15:23>> you know, just make it not as serious
15:25and give people a little window to be
15:27like, it's okay. It's okay if you say
15:28the wrong thing. We can just like kind
15:29of laugh about it and I'd rather talk
15:31about it. And maybe you learn how to
15:32talk about it as well, you know? I want
15:34to talk about how OCD shows up in
15:36everyday life.
15:38>> I want to talk about how like walk me
15:41through
15:42>> I don't know. Can we walk through like a
15:44morning in your life of maybe a day when
15:46you're really struggling with it? like
15:47what does it actually look like or feel
15:50like?
15:51>> So, I'll give like an example. So, once
15:53again, it can look so different for so
15:55many people where sometimes it really
15:57grabs onto like one area of their life
15:59or one theme and then for others it's
16:01just so intertwined. So, I'll kind of
16:03give an example of what we call and this
16:05is just a name of a subtype that's not
16:07its own diagnosis but like optimization
16:10OCD for example
16:11>> because there are so many subtypes,
16:12right? So many how many?
16:14>> I mean so many like I don't have a The
16:17limit does not exist.
16:17>> The limit does not exist. Like sure, we
16:19have like certain ones like
16:21>> just like clinically we talk about, but
16:23none of them are like under
16:24>> a specific diagnosis. It's all OCD at
16:27the end of the day.
16:28>> I'd call them like nicknames for
16:29different themes. So that's why there's
16:31kind of like no limit. But we have like
16:33relationship OCD, harm OCD, right? Like
16:35so many different themes that come up.
16:38>> But talking about it like as an example,
16:40I'm going to just like roleplay as if
16:42I'm OCD. So I think like the kind of
16:44videos I love to make. It's easier to
16:45say it that way. I love your videos of
16:47like waking up with OCD. Those are my
16:49favorite ones. Like when you do the nar
16:51the narration of it. I love it.
16:53>> Thank you. And I'm like, let's hope I
16:54don't freeze here. But like for example,
16:56you wake up, it's like, okay, you
16:58already woke up too late. Oh my gosh,
16:59you missed your alarm. Oh, you're doing
17:00everything wrong. Get up. No, you have
17:02an appointment at 3 p.m. And this is
17:03where it can really overlap with ADHD,
17:05too, right? Of like the list there. But
17:07waking up, you're doing things wrong.
17:09Like what are you doing with your life?
17:10>> This like sense of urgency, right? Like,
17:12okay, do you know what you're going to
17:13do? Like, did you text your friend?
17:15Okay. What about that weird thing you
17:16said? You need to really think about it.
17:18Okay. Let's go look up how to do this.
17:19No, no, no. The oat milk is like this. I
17:21said this in my video, too. Like, but
17:22almond milk instead of oat milk. Like
17:24almost to a point where everything seems
17:26like you're everything feels like it has
17:28meaning.
17:29>> Yeah.
17:29>> With OCD can feel like every little
17:31thing that someone might look at you and
17:32think that's like not a big deal. Why do
17:34you care?
17:35>> It genuinely I'll say this, your body
17:37responds as if it's very urgent. You
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19:10>> So if you feel like for example I put
19:12the wrong milk. Okay, that now ruins the
19:14whole day. I've contaminated and ruined
19:16the whole day. What's the point of doing
19:18the next thing? You do the next thing.
19:19Okay, now that's ruined. But because you
19:21didn't do that one thing at noon, 400
19:22p.m.'s ruined because you didn't get
19:24ready for your appointment at this time.
19:25You're like nodding.
19:26>> No, I'm like this is every day of my
19:28life.
19:28>> Yeah. Or like for example, like to add a
19:30relationship example, your partner does
19:32something, they make a mistake or do
19:34something that like bothered you, but
19:35like isn't something extreme for the
19:38average person, right? And then your
19:39brain goes to like, what does this mean?
19:41Like I, while I'm here, I'll give you an
19:43example of something my husband did, and
19:45I've said this in many of my podcast
19:47episodes. Like one time he brought back
19:49avocados, and he like didn't or no, he
19:51forgot avocados from the grocery store.
19:54And my brain had convinced me that like
19:56he's going to be the reason I die in my
19:58deathbed when I'm older because he'll
19:59forget my medication.
20:00>> And it went from like he's forgetful
20:02about that to he doesn't care about you.
20:06He's inconsiderate. Like
20:07>> I can take those leaps as well.
20:09>> It it went all the way there where I
20:10even like knew it was ridiculous,
20:13>> but I was like my body was panicking.
20:15So, there's also that thing with OCD
20:16where like there can be a logical part
20:18of you that's fighting with that part of
20:19your brain. Yeah.
20:20>> And you can feel like so much guilt and
20:23shame and now I've gone on to 20 other
20:25questions.
20:26>> I pray for the day my brain lets me
20:30enjoy being alive.
20:31>> Yeah.
20:32>> You know what I mean? Like every
20:35[laughter]
20:35>> Jesus like yesterday I was texting this
20:39man. He was like, "What are you doing?"
20:40And I'm like, honestly, I've been
20:42staring at two crew necks, deciding what
20:45I want to wear to the airport. I flew in
20:46this morning. I'm like, I don't know if
20:48I want to do the black crew neck or this
20:51one with the hoodie. Cuz if I do the
20:52hoodie, then I can wear the hood and
20:53then But if I do the crew neck, then I
20:55can do this. But then if I don't do
20:57>> I went He was like, "You're not okay."
21:01I'm like, "Well, that's nothing new. We
21:02already knew that." But it's like I hate
21:05how some decisions
21:07can really feel so polarizing and it's
21:09like life or death. Like they become
21:11like these life or death moments and
21:13situations. How do you when you're
21:15having a day like that with so many
21:16thoughts? I'm sure there are so many
21:18tools or medication. I'm not sure what
21:21the what different solutions exist, but
21:23what helps?
21:26So, and I feel like I say this with
21:28every question, but it really looks
21:30different depending on how debilitating
21:32it is for someone, how much it's
21:34impacting their day-to-day life.
21:37>> For me, a big part of it has really been
21:40the acceptance of them being there
21:42>> and not necessarily needing to respond.
21:44So, I really compare it and to someone
21:47texting me. And in the past, I would
21:49respond and react to every single text.
21:51I would need to prove to them. Oh, I'd
21:54give them a whole list of why I either
21:56should choose that or choose that. And
21:57then here and there they'd throw like a
21:59violent image of something or like
22:01something I didn't want to see, an
22:03intrusive image in my head, right? But
22:05before it's almost as if I needed to
22:07respond to every single text and now I'm
22:10just like, "Go ahead and text me
22:12>> and I'm going to just choose something."
22:13And you could be texting me and then
22:15it'll panic and say, "You're you chose
22:16the wrong one. You chose the wrong one.
22:18It's ruined. It's ruined." And then I'm
22:20going to say, "Okay, it's ruined." Like,
22:22that's when I roll my eyes and then I do
22:24the next thing and I do the next thing.
22:26And it's so hard at first because if you
22:28feel like you've been responding to that
22:31person, whatever we want to call it, it
22:33kind of to externalize it for so long,
22:36they're not going to like when you don't
22:37respond to them right away. They're
22:38actually going to get louder. They're
22:40going to bring in
22:41>> the bigger, more intense themes that
22:44you're probably going to feel so
22:45uncomfortable with. But over time, they
22:47learn that they don't have the power. So
22:49there are days, I won't lie, where it
22:51feels harder not to. But overall, as
22:54I've started to live my life and do what
22:58feels aligned with me and be okay with
23:00not necessarily even knowing what that
23:02is, that in itself has just like made it
23:05easier cuz I just even saying it, I'm
23:07like, "Oh, they're there." But they
23:08don't bother me in the same way. Like I
23:10enjoy my life even though they're there.
23:12And sometimes they're a lot more quiet
23:14and they come and they're like, "Oh,
23:15maybe you've never lived with OCD." And
23:18that's when they try to like even poke
23:19at you more.
23:20>> Like why?
23:21>> I feel like I'm talking so fast.
23:23>> Oh, you're not. Why? Why are our brains
23:25so rude?
23:26>> No, they're just so rude. And
23:28>> please explain.
23:28>> No, I know. And then I I'm sure like
23:30talking to that guy, he was like, I
23:32don't know what that's like. [laughter]
23:32I feel the same about my husband. How do
23:34you put your head on the pillow and
23:35sleep like right away?
23:36>> That's to me that's a serial killer.
23:38>> Do you know the amount of things I need
23:40[laughter] to go to sleep? I need
23:42>> literally medication. I need probably
23:44let me sleep gummies. I need white noise
23:46or brown noise. I need the AC at like
23:4868. I need a fake scenario to imagine in
23:51my head. I need to be really tired. I
23:52need
23:54>> I when I have to go pee in the morning,
23:55I'm like, no, it's up.
23:57>> Like,
23:57>> it's up. [laughter]
23:59>> I'm like, please, let me just I try to
24:01like keep my eyes closed.
24:02>> So, I'm like, [laughter] it's up.
24:04>> I like try to keep my eyes closed. I'm
24:05like, I'm still asleep. Like, literally,
24:07sometimes my brain I'll like go to the
24:09bathroom in the middle of the night.
24:10It's like, you know, everyone in your
24:11life's going to die at some point. Like,
24:13what if they die tomorrow? I'm like, you
24:14know what? I don't feel like it right
24:15now.
24:15>> No, I honestly, if someone could listen
24:18to my thoughts all day,
24:20>> first of all, I'd probably go to jail,
24:21but second of all, they would feel so
24:22bad for me because it's almost like a
24:25it's a mental battle,
24:27>> right? All day of having to convince
24:29yourself, no, this is fine. And this is
24:30my experience with
24:32>> the list of uh struggles that I have
24:34that I mentioned. But it's like all day
24:37if it's not perfect,
24:39my brain is always telling me I could
24:40have done better.
24:41>> Yeah.
24:42>> With everything. And so I've had to
24:44learn how to similarly quiet the
24:48narrative and also remind myself like,
24:50you know,
24:51>> I think smart women have really smart
24:53inner critics. Your inner critic isn't
24:55going to be this like dumb who
24:57doesn't know what she's saying. She's
24:58going to say logical things. She's not
25:00going to be telling you like, "Damn, you
25:01suck." No, it's going to be way more
25:03specific and way more
25:05>> objectively really, really intelligent.
25:08>> And so it's really hard to not listen.
25:10>> Yeah. So, I'm always trying to battle
25:13with that and just remind myself like
25:15every thought isn't necessarily true. It
25:18can just be information. And also,
25:21>> I always have to go back to just
25:22evidence in my brain of listen, I can I
25:25have I've had this experience whether
25:27it's with my body, with work, with my
25:30grades, with anything.
25:32>> My brain always wants more.
25:34>> Yeah.
25:34>> She's so greedy. Like, she always wants
25:36more. It could have always been better.
25:38It could have always been done in a
25:40better way.
25:41>> So, I'm like, you know what? It's never
25:42enough anyway. I might might as well
25:44just
25:45>> Yeah.
25:45>> And it's taken me 32 years to get here.
25:49>> And you know what? Props to you. Cuz for
25:50many people, they wouldn't even be able
25:52to get to that point or understand that
25:54or have the support or tools to even get
25:56there. Can I add something to what you
25:57said?
25:58I think that's so relatable and I think
26:01it's so helpful to know that as hard as
26:04it is that it's there cuz a lot of our
26:06goal is for many people is to quiet that
26:09>> fair enough because it's so painful and
26:10we don't want to deal with it. And I
26:12think the best thing we can do to
26:13support us in that is to show up how we
26:16want despite it. And I think one of the
26:18things OCD or not with our thoughts when
26:21they're hard on us want us to believe
26:23that like they're in control.
26:24>> Yeah. And as a when we remember that
26:26like at the end of the day my thoughts
26:27actually can't like take action. My
26:30thoughts can tell me don't show up to
26:31the podcast you're going to look like a
26:32fool or you're going to do this. I'm
26:34going to say I'm going like okay I'm
26:36going to do that. It's the knowing that
26:38even though it's going off
26:40>> and they're texting you or saying these
26:41things, whatever we want to imagine it
26:43as. You are still doing the thing. And
26:45sometimes that's where the fun can kind
26:46of come in of like screw you. I'm doing
26:49this anyway. like
26:50>> well for me I I've had to take action
26:53because
26:54>> for so many years and I there's still
26:56things that I'm not doing because of the
26:58thoughts maybe they win or the inner
27:00critic wins but for so many years I
27:02didn't take action and I feel like that
27:04was only reinforcing those thoughts
27:06right cuz it was like oh I believe them
27:08>> cuz I'm not doing these things and
27:10obviously that's layered right but
27:13>> for me now taking action and then having
27:16a I learned this word a corrective
27:19emotional experience or having a
27:22positive outcome. I'm like, "Oh, see, I
27:24really like data. My brain really likes
27:27>> information and evidence." So, I'm like,
27:29"See, it's okay." Like, I always have to
27:31be like, "Oh my god, remember that.
27:32Remember that next time you're freaking
27:33out about this, remember that this time
27:34it worked and it was fine."
27:36>> Yes.
27:36>> And then, honestly, that's what I do.
27:38>> Okay. I mean, I love that. And I I think
27:40that in itself goes to show because a
27:42big part of I'll say specifically with
27:44OCD is
27:46>> it wants you to not trust yourself and
27:48it's a big lack of that selfrust in that
27:50moment.
27:50>> And so for example with something like
27:53that there may be a time where the
27:54evidence doesn't match what you want it
27:56to be and then your brain might say
27:58there you go see the one out of a
28:00thousand times 999 times you did it well
28:04and you succeeded that one time. See we
28:06were right all along. But that in itself
28:09to me is not a reflection that the
28:11thoughts are right, but just a reminder
28:13that you trust yourself. And even that
28:16time or the many times that it doesn't
28:17go how you expect it to, you'll get
28:19through that. And I think that's the
28:21bigger thing where a lot of us with OCD,
28:23we want the the certainty of like here's
28:25the proof. Here is the evidence to know
28:27that this will happen as opposed to that
28:30honestly might happen. And I I always
28:32hate saying this, but I lean into like
28:34my husband might leave me. I might leave
28:36him. Not that either of us have the
28:37intention, but it's leaning into the
28:40fact that like I literally just can't
28:42read the future.
28:43>> No,
28:43>> I don't know what's going to happen
28:44tomorrow. There's a world where I'm not
28:45a therapist tomorrow. If something like
28:47I don't know what's going to happen, but
28:49that's not saying it's true. It's just
28:50saying that I don't know. And whatever
28:52does come my way, I trust that I will
28:54deal with it. And I trust myself to show
28:56up in ways that align with my values and
28:58who I am today.
29:00>> All our brain really wants is like the
29:02certainty.
29:02>> Yeah.
29:03>> Right. And unfortunately, life just
29:04doesn't you can't get certainty in
29:06anything.
29:06>> Yeah.
29:07>> So, you might as well instead of
29:09searching for the certainty, remind
29:11yourself like, I don't know. I'm never
29:13going to know 100%. But what I do know
29:15is I'll figure it out
29:16>> 100%.
29:17>> You know, can we talk about how OCD
29:19shows up in our interpersonal
29:21relationships? I was listening to one of
29:23your episodes and you were talking about
29:25friendship
29:26>> and you said community is a threat to
29:30OCD.
29:31>> Why? I just post sometimes as if it's
29:33only my mom.
29:34>> But it's weird, right? Because even for
29:36me, like sometimes I'll record and then
29:37I post and then I'm like, "Oh, I forget
29:39that people are actually gonna I'm like,
29:41what did I say?" Cuz sometimes
29:42>> Yeah. Like maybe a friend from home is
29:44like, "Oh, I was I was like you that's
29:46not for you. Why are you listening to
29:47that? That's for people who don't know
29:49me."
29:49>> No, [laughter] but that's very sweet. Um
29:51and a big part of that is especially
29:53with OCD, once again, it's such an
29:55isolating experience. So many people who
29:57live with OCD have so much shame around
30:00the thoughts and the themes and what
30:01come up for them. And so when you have
30:04community and once again I'm going to
30:06compare it to someone who wants power
30:08over you whether it's a person or an ex
30:11or whatever we want to call it. Once you
30:13start to have people who are like hey
30:14you're not alone in this and we don't
30:16have to necessarily do what it's saying
30:19it starts to see it as a threat. So when
30:21you start to like actually get support
30:24whether or not it's from someone who
30:25lives with OCD just in general that's
30:28when it starts to lose its power. And
30:30obviously it's very nuanced here because
30:32sometimes community even well intention
30:34might reinforce what OCD wants.
30:36>> How?
30:37>> For example, if you're participating in
30:39a compulsion and a loved one sees that
30:41you're uncomfortable, right? They're
30:43like, "Okay, let's do whatever you need
30:44to do or I'll say whatever you want me
30:45to say or yeah to make it okay."
30:47>> Just to make it okay. Because as humans,
30:49of course, we see our loved ones who are
30:50in pain or they're uncomfortable or it's
30:53[snorts] not always so simple. Like
30:54sometimes it'll be someone crying in the
30:56corner like, "Do you love me? Like, I
30:58need to do this. It has to be this way."
31:00When someone tries to ease what they
31:02believe is your well, it is your
31:04discomfort, but they believe they're
31:06supporting you. It reinforces it can
31:09reinforce OCD. And so, it's very tricky.
31:11>> Uh searching for reassurance. Yes. Yes.
31:13And going to someone for the reassurance
31:15and they think they're doing something
31:16positive because you want reassurance
31:18and they're giving it to you. Meanwhile,
31:20>> it's just reinforcing it again.
31:22>> Yes. 100%. And it doesn't mean I make
31:24that very clear. It doesn't mean you're
31:26going to look someone in the eye and
31:27say, "No, I'm not like it's it's not
31:29that everyone's different, but very
31:31often it's not that black and white."
31:33And it could look like supporting
31:34someone through how hard that experience
31:37is without feeding into the content of
31:39it. So, for example, if someone were
31:41texting you and you didn't want them to
31:43be texting you, you don't necessarily
31:45need your loved one to say, "Oh, let's
31:47dive deep into every specific text and
31:49figure it out." They can support you in
31:51saying, "This is awful that you're going
31:53through this and that they're even
31:54reaching out." So, it's focusing more on
31:56the experience of what OCD feels like as
31:58opposed to the actual content, which is
32:01what it wants. It wants you to get
32:02sucked in and sometimes it wants you to
32:04kind of pull loved ones in, and it's
32:06it's really hard because it's not always
32:08clear. Can we talk to someone who is
32:10maybe struggling with OCD and maybe
32:13they're dating somebody new or they're
32:15making new friends or they're trying to
32:17go they're trying to deepen a friendship
32:19and this is something that it's a big
32:21part of their life. Vulnerability is
32:22very difficult for them and certain
32:24topics are more taboo for them. So, can
32:26we talk about just ways that you can
32:29share this with someone new and
32:31>> do it in a way where you're not
32:33necessarily asking them to solve, you
32:35know, figure you out, but just more so
32:37like I just want to share something
32:38about me and maybe if you know in the
32:40future if I do X, Y, and Z, then you'll
32:42know why.
32:43>> You know,
32:44>> I think that's a great question because
32:45that's so hard for many people. And I
32:48think there's also a misconception that
32:51we have to share the details of the
32:52thoughts with a loved one. And that's
32:54another compulsion within OCD is
32:56confessing often where like for many
32:58people with OCD we feel like we have to
33:00share every detail or I'm a liar or this
33:02and that, right? But like with ADHD is
33:04overexplaining as well cuz I don't want
33:06you to get I don't want you to think
33:08anything wrong. I'm going to give you
33:09every you know how they say like people
33:11who are lying give all the details. I'm
33:13like, "No, I am not lying, but I just
33:16have this need to tell you every I don't
33:18know what a short story is. I'm going to
33:19tell you every single detail."
33:21>> I get that. I totally get that. And I
33:23think I mean depending on the context,
33:25that can help, right, for someone to
33:27feel less alone. Like if you're in a
33:28therapeutic setting, whatever it may be.
33:31So, it's definitely depends on the
33:32situation. But one, someone can actually
33:35support you in living with OCD without
33:38knowing the details of the thoughts. So
33:40it's not to say that you don't share it
33:41this and that, but it depends also on
33:43the function. Are you sharing it with
33:45them because you want to relieve your
33:46own guilt or anxiety or you feel like
33:48they have to know? Are you or are you
33:49sharing it with them so they simply
33:51understand how difficult it is to live
33:52with it?
33:53>> But I would focus less on the content
33:56once again and more on the experience of
33:57what it feels like. So for everyone,
33:59it's different. Some people describe it
34:01as like I feel stuck on a hamster wheel.
34:03Sometimes my thoughts just make me feel
34:05like I'm stuck on a hamster wheel and I
34:06cannot get off. Yeah.
34:07>> Or it feels like I need to do something
34:09a specific way or I just start to have
34:12like all these thoughts and images that
34:14I don't want that feel so scary and
34:16confusing. I just really want to support
34:18people in like giving a visual of what
34:20it feels like for them because it's
34:22going to feel and look different for
34:23each person course and then sharing it
34:25with a loved one and also maybe going
34:27through the very valid grief that like
34:30as much as we explain it someone may not
34:33exactly understand because if I could
34:35tell you like even when I said that like
34:38the example of a morning I was like that
34:39was like 20 seconds of the day and that
34:42was like kind of the lighter part. So,
34:44like all to say, you're allowed to also
34:47grieve and go through that process of
34:49knowing that like they may not ever
34:51fully understand the full picture, but
34:52you can still be supported and there are
34:54people who also understand what it's
34:56like.
34:56>> I really love how you prefaced you don't
34:58have to explain every single detail
35:00about it. You don't have to overshare
35:01every single thing about it, but
35:03painting a picture to someone that you
35:05love and that and
35:06>> for someone who is close to you, I think
35:08is valuable. I want to talk really quick
35:10about social media because I think it
35:13has been so beautiful in the way that it
35:16has highlighted so many different
35:20>> struggles that we all have and it helps
35:22us again feel less alone and I love
35:24that.
35:26>> Conversely, I think we're all diagnosing
35:29ourselves on TikTok and we all think we
35:31know everything, right?
35:32>> Yes. So, it's like I feel like it can
35:34also be kind of damaging and we throw
35:36around these labels like they're nothing
35:38sometimes.
35:39>> I would love to know and I'm sure
35:40there's a list. What specifically about
35:44OCD that you see online, what bothers
35:46you the most?
35:48>> What narrative bothers you the most?
35:50>> Oh my gosh, I'm like that's like five
35:52podcasts. [laughter]
35:54>> H I'd say one of the main ones is that
35:59kind of going back that it just presents
36:01in what way? one way when people say
36:03like, "Oh, this is just what OCD looks
36:05like." I'm always, and it's not to say
36:07that that doesn't affect people in that
36:09way. Yes, sometimes it can really affect
36:12like cleanliness and being orderly, all
36:14this stuff. But when people portray it
36:16as just that, or once again, I've seen,
36:18oh, this is one [laughter] it came to
36:20me. I've seen people kind of make jokes
36:22like I love that like my partner lives
36:24with it because now I don't have to
36:25worry about cleaning or just like oh
36:27yeah it's one thing to hum put humor
36:29around it and it's another thing to
36:31assume someone's experience
36:33>> and that is what I think hurts the most
36:36to see and I I've gone in on my own
36:39videos where people said this is not
36:40what mine looks like this isn't accurate
36:42or it's not real and I I hold space for
36:45the fact that that comes from pain and I
36:46carry compassion for that but it's also
36:49difficult because everyone's Someone's
36:50experience looks different. My
36:52experience is going to look different
36:53than someone else's experience. They
36:54there may be overlap, but there is shows
36:58up
36:58>> and it doesn't make your pain any less
37:00real.
37:01>> Exactly.
37:01>> Just because it doesn't look the way
37:02whoever wrote that comment.
37:04>> Exactly. And for example, it's very
37:06common with like the mental compulsions
37:08where someone might say this isn't OCD
37:10because you have it has to have obvious
37:12compulsions of like there can be
37:14compulsions that are internal. And
37:16there's been this like very common
37:17phrase like pure OCD which has been pure
37:20obsessional OCD but we've started to
37:22like steer I feel like just in general a
37:24lot of um OCD professionals have started
37:26to steer away from that. Not to speak
37:28for everyone everyone's experience is
37:30different and for like some people
37:31having a diagnosis really supports them
37:34and helps them get the treatment that
37:35they need and do exposure and response
37:37prevention and do different types of
37:38treatment that help them. For some
37:40people, they don't have a diagnosis, but
37:42they still are supporting themselves as
37:44long as they understand the function of
37:45the behavior and getting the support
37:47they need. It's just there is no
37:49one-sizefits-all. And I think one thing
37:51that does bother me is whether it's
37:53professionals or not, policing each
37:55other on how
37:57someone's experience should be. And
37:59>> talk more about that. It's very easy to
38:02look at someone's experience and say
38:04once again this is an OCD or this is or
38:08you have this or you have that and to
38:10like diagnose people they've literally
38:12never met whether it's in comments or
38:14they respond to someone's comments. But
38:17I will also say I want to add like a
38:18part that I enjoy cuz I feel like I'm
38:20only complaining about it. It's been
38:22amazing to see other people support each
38:24other to see of course there's like a
38:26limit of what I can ethically do like I
38:28don't you know give advice in DMs or you
38:32know respond to certain things but I do
38:34see other people can say like I have a
38:36group that I've made or a group chat for
38:38people so we're less alone or we're
38:39going through this experience and that
38:41in itself like if one thing I post or
38:44what someone else posts can be a vessel
38:45for other people to like meet each other
38:48and get community while they also get
38:50the professional support they deserve
38:52and not everyone of I know has access
38:54to. But that in itself is just so
38:56beautiful and I'm like beyond thankful
38:58for the page and I get overwhelmed
39:00because I'm also human and I'm like I
39:02could make the longest caption of just
39:05disclaimers but I'm like there's only so
39:07much I can say.
39:08>> There's only so much you can say and
39:11someone is always going to find an issue
39:13with it, you know, and at the end of the
39:15day that's not who you're trying to
39:16speak to.
39:17>> Yeah.
39:18>> Right. And I I feel like if we try to
39:20speak to everybody, we're not going to
39:21speak to anybody. And the people you
39:23have found people that understand what
39:25you're trying to say.
39:26>> And [clears throat] there's always going
39:27to be someone who wants to fight and who
39:29needs hobbies clearly.
39:30>> And I respond the same way I do with my
39:32OCD thoughts, which is like,
39:34>> you know, do your thing, but I don't
39:36need to like go back and forth with you
39:38or like even give you the power by
39:40talking about it, right?
39:41>> What do you wish people highlighted more
39:44about OCD online?
39:48I wish people definitely highlighted
39:50more how it does show up mentally. Like
39:52I feel like that's a big theme I talk
39:54about, but how it affects relationships
39:57and a lot of people around you because
39:58OCD does not just attach the person.
40:01Sure, they're the ones dealing with it,
40:02but it can incredibly impact families,
40:05partners, kids of parents who are
40:08undiagnosed or don't understand or
40:10parents of kids who they're trying to
40:12support. like it really really can latch
40:14on to so much more than the person
40:16experiencing it. And of course, the
40:17person experiencing it
40:19>> can carry so much shame and guilt. And
40:21that's also something I wish we talked
40:23about is the amount of shame and guilt
40:25is unmatched.
40:27>> Unmatched. And there's like the extra
40:30shame of like I want to control this,
40:32but we can't. And it's so easy to see it
40:34as a reflection of you. And so I hope
40:36anyone who hears this who lives with OCD
40:39or experiences it knows that you didn't
40:42choose this
40:43>> and you didn't deserve any of this. And
40:46at the same time, you are deserving of
40:49living a life that feels fulfilling and
40:51whatever that may look like for you
40:53despite it with it, even though it's
40:55there. And you're not a burden to other
40:57people. Like you are the one dealing
40:59with this. And sure, we all can show up
41:01in ways we don't feel proud of as we
41:02learn to navigate it, but it is hard.
41:04And so I hope people can have more
41:06compassion for themselves and knowing
41:08there's no handbook as we grow up of
41:10like you may live with this and this is
41:12what it's like and it may not be obvious
41:14to other people and you might get
41:15rewarded for it to just have more
41:17compassion for ourselves in it.
41:18>> Mic drop. Wow. I was going to ask you
41:21what you would say to someone who maybe
41:24was recently diagnosed or someone who
41:26was understanding more about OCD and
41:28what it entailed and what you wish that
41:31they would remember and you just kind of
41:33killed it with that. like sweet
41:35>> those words were so beautiful and this
41:38is why I love having these conversations
41:39honestly this is why I started a podcast
41:41was I can't shut up to save my life but
41:44also because I'm like okay I've been
41:46through such hard things that I know in
41:49the moment I feel like I'm the only
41:50person in the world experiencing these
41:52things and then once I started talking
41:54about them I'm like
41:55>> oh my god so many people be it grief or
41:59eating [clears throat] disorders or
42:00mental health struggles whatever it is
42:02like so we're all unfortunately
42:05struggling with something.
42:06>> Yeah.
42:07>> And
42:08>> though that doesn't make your pain any
42:10less painful,
42:12>> it does
42:13>> we I feel like as humans we exist to be
42:15in community
42:16>> and it does feel nice to know you're not
42:19alone. There's so many people that have
42:20these issues and struggles and it's just
42:23like a part of life,
42:24>> right? So, I love everything you said. I
42:27wish I had a better question, but you
42:28kind of just like killed it with that
42:29one.
42:30>> Can I add to that though? Now that you
42:31mentioned that, I also want to put out
42:33there that like forever who for anyone
42:36who whether it's ADHD or OCD or just in
42:38general, they're starting to understand
42:39their experience or they've been through
42:41something traumatic and they're
42:43understanding the impact, you are
42:44allowed to grieve the ways it's affected
42:46you in other areas of your life. And to
42:49look back, even to this day, as much as
42:52I feel thankful for where I am and I
42:53wouldn't change a thing, I do look back
42:55and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, like that one
42:57opportunity I didn't take or that one
42:59belief I had that I thought was so real
43:00or the gut feeling or I had to leave,
43:02whatever it was and that I thought was
43:04so true, that was all from those
43:07thoughts that I didn't understand."
43:09Right? And it's so easy to isolate
43:11yourself in that experience and really
43:14think like I post videos where I think
43:16no one is going to this is so niche and
43:18specific that no one's going to have any
43:20of these and once again I'm going to
43:22look like that therapist who is like
43:23going off on here but then those are the
43:25ones where people are like I did not
43:26think anyone else was thinking or
43:28feeling that and then it's just a
43:29reminder when I go out and I see people
43:32on planes in the movie theaters wherever
43:34we are in the world and thinking
43:35everyone else seems like they're just so
43:37put together and have it calm. Sure,
43:39maybe some people are and that's
43:40amazing. And there are people who like
43:42from the outside. I think sometimes I
43:44can appear like I have it all together
43:46externally if I show up and I'm just
43:48calm, but like little do you know what
43:50just went on my head, the 10 steps that
43:52went on. The fact that I was like, "Oh
43:53my god, I'm pass out. This is going to
43:54happen." And just being able to like
43:56know that you're not alone in the wild
43:59mind wherever it takes you.
44:00>> You really I say this all the time. You
44:03have no idea what someone is going home
44:06to. Mhm.
44:07>> You have no idea what someone is
44:09thinking, what it took for them to get
44:11to wherever they are with you in that
44:13moment. And I know that because I am the
44:16living example of just I don't mean to
44:18be a hypocrite, but like I will go
44:20through the craziest
44:22>> Yeah.
44:22>> And then I'll just go to the supermarket
44:24and be best friends with everybody at
44:25Trader Joe's and I'm like, "Oh, they
44:26probably thought I was so cute and fun."
44:27Meanwhile, I'm like going home to this
44:29the craziest things that I have to deal
44:31with. And I'm like,
44:32>> "Okay, if I can put on a show like this,
44:35>> everyone else can, too." So, it's like,
44:37>> stop being a hypocrite. That's human and
44:38that's survival and that's
44:40>> it's survival. Yeah,
44:41>> it's 100% survival.
44:42>> But it's like you never know.
44:44>> You never know. Like it could be
44:46>> the funniest, cutest girl in the room
44:48and she could still be going through
44:49hell, you know? So, it's like you never
44:51know what anyone is carrying.
44:53>> And
44:55>> that's also kind of scary.
44:57>> Yeah. You know, that's also kind of
44:58scary because
45:00>> I feel like we just all have to be I
45:02think when I went through my eating
45:03disorder, that really changed everything
45:05for me because I was rewarded for so
45:07many years
45:08>> for the behaviors that were enabling my
45:11eating disorder.
45:12>> So, one thing I will never do now is
45:14like compliment. I mean, I will
45:16compliment women obviously. I love
45:18telling them they're beautiful, but I'm
45:19so careful with the words that I use or
45:21the questions that I ask or things that
45:23I notice. I'm so careful with it. And so
45:26I just think because you just have to be
45:28so careful. You don't know what you
45:29don't know what you're complimenting
45:31when you say something to someone.
45:33>> And that could apply to any struggle,
45:36you know. So
45:37>> 100%.
45:37>> Just to PSA to be, you know, mindful
45:39with your words, but um my last question
45:42for you. I'm so sad we have to wrap.
45:43You're so fun to talk to and I wish I
45:45could talk to you all day.
45:46>> Um
45:47>> what, and this has nothing to do, this
45:49can be related to OCD, it cannot.
45:51Whatever.
45:52>> Okay,
45:52>> you can answer this however you want.
45:54The only rule for this question is you
45:56can't be humble when you answer it.
45:57Okay,
45:58>> that is so hard cuz then my thoughts are
45:59going to be like you're [laughter]
46:01self.
46:01>> Let's let's tell them to just give me
46:03one minute.
46:03>> My own like exposure exercise here.
46:05Okay, let's do it.
46:06>> Exposure work right now.
46:07>> Okay.
46:08>> If your younger self could see you
46:09today, what do you think would make her
46:11the proudest?
46:13>> I love that.
46:16Now I'm like the opposite. I'm like
46:17[laughter] a list. Um [gasps]
46:20I think a
46:21>> we can schedule another hour. [laughter]
46:23Like aside from like truly at the end of
46:26the day, I think she would be proudest
46:28of
46:30showing up and being vulnerable and
46:32being human and authentic
46:34despite my thoughts, despite what other
46:36people say, and despite it maybe not
46:39being what I thought it would look like.
46:42I started I'm really proud of not just
46:45specifically my page and podcast, but I
46:47started that and I think some people who
46:48follow me don't know that that I started
46:50this before I went to grad school. I was
46:52just lost and confused. And I was like,
46:53"Hey, let's talk about like just feeling
46:56lost and confused in life." And I
46:58remember feeling so much shame for like
47:00not knowing what I was doing exactly
47:02like is this embarrassing? All that
47:04stuff. And I, you know, I had people who
47:06would judge me and I had people make
47:07comments, people in my life who would be
47:08like, "What are you doing?" And I pushed
47:10through cuz I was like, "I don't know
47:12where this is going to go or what it
47:13will lead to, but it just feels so
47:15authentic." And so, I'd say I'm most
47:17proud. I think she'd be really proud of
47:18how true to myself I've stayed. And at
47:22the end of the day, like obviously
47:23degrees, all this stuff are great, but I
47:26think at the end of the day, the part of
47:27just being true to yourself, like for
47:29me, will take over any of that.
47:32>> I'm so glad people like you exist and
47:34have platforms. I swear I feel like some
47:36people were put on this earth to tell
47:39stories and to be storytellers, and I
47:40feel like that's what you're doing. And
47:42you you've built such a beautiful
47:43community of people who feel so safe
47:45with you. And I'm also so glad that
47:47you're a therapist because you're going
47:48to help a lot of us. So
47:50>> So I'm like, can we do this once a week
47:52so I can [laughter] feel better about
47:53myself? No, cuz literally I go through
47:55phases where I'm like, I'm gone for a
47:56week or this and that.
47:58>> Yeah, but that's crazy to me that you
48:00would feel like don't doubt what you're
48:02doing like at all. Truly.
48:04>> Thank you so much. And you are so truly
48:06like I know we just met today in person,
48:08but like you are so warm and the work
48:10you're doing like whether or not you get
48:12a degree or do that work, you are still
48:13making a huge impact. And I hope you
48:15remember that. And it's so easy to be
48:16like, you have to do it in one way, but
48:18there's no one.
48:19>> We're trying to figure that out. So, you
48:20actually just helped me with what you
48:21were saying because I'm like, I don't
48:22know what to do next, but we'll see.
48:24>> And that's okay.
48:25>> Yeah,
48:25>> it's okay. I I really believe like if
48:27you just each day there's so much
48:29pressure me like going on another. But
48:31last, I think there's so much pressure
48:32to know. I'm like, if each day you
48:34really just show up authentically, I
48:35think there's a weird way where things
48:37just work out.
48:38>> I know how you guys love therap you guys
48:40therapists love to say you have to sit
48:41on the discomfort. I'm like, I've been
48:43sitting in the discomfort for like 10
48:44years. I want to sit in the comfort.
48:46>> How about sitting in the comfort?
48:47>> I take a lot of my own thoughts. Like
48:49after a session, I'm like, I need to
48:50listen what I said to myself and I need
48:52to do the exercise I did.
48:53>> Oh my gosh. Thank you so much.

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