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How to Stop Procrastinating: It's a Skill Issue, Not Laziness — Transcript

by Mark Manson · 54,582 words · 9,085 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Welcome to Solved, the self-help podcast
0:02for smart people. My name is Mark
0:04Manson, three-time number one New York
0:06Times best-selling author, and this is
0:08my co-host and long-time lead
0:10researcher, Drew Barney. Now, Drew and I
0:12have been in the personal growth and
0:14mental health space for a combined 30
0:16years now, and we've had enough. We've
0:19had enough of the empty
0:20promises, and fake solutions. Every
0:23episode of Solved, our goal is to create
0:25the most comprehensive, evidence-based,
0:28value-delivering podcast on Earth on
0:31that specific topic. And today's topic
0:34is procrastination. Now, the catch of
0:36Solved is that whatever topic we cover,
0:38our goal is that it is the last time you
0:40will ever feel a need to listen to a
0:42podcast on that topic. And this is the
0:44last time we can make an episode
0:47covering this topic. Therefore, our
0:49promise to you is that if you make the
0:51commitment to get through the entire
0:52episode and implement the advice, your
0:55procrastination will be solved.
1:04Drew, I have two things to say before we
1:06get started.
1:07Okay.
1:07Before we solve procrastination for the
1:10entire world.
1:12[laughter]
1:14You're welcome, everybody. Uh first
1:16thing is uh so listeners don't know
1:19this, but this is the second episode
1:21that's going out of this podcast, but it
1:23this is actually the first one we're
1:24recording, and uh
1:26ironically, we procrastinated this
1:29episode
1:30like 3 months.
1:32How many months did it take us to shoot
1:33this thing?
1:34to that, yeah. [laughter]
1:36[gasps]
1:36So, be confident, listener, that uh your
1:38your hosts
1:40are are experts on the
1:41quite familiar with the topic you're
1:43about to discuss, yes.
1:44Yes, exactly. Uh and then the second
1:46thing I want to say is is just I want to
1:47get in before all of the comments from
1:50people who are going to say, "Oh, I'll
1:52listen to this later."
1:53[laughter]
1:54You're not funny.
1:55[snorts]
1:56You're not clever.
1:57joke
1:58Yes.
1:58I've been doing this for 15 years. Every
2:01time I create any content around
2:03procrastination,
2:04the first comment is always, "Oh, I'll
2:06get to this later." And I'm like, "Yeah,
2:08you're very cute."
2:09Those people haven't even made it that
2:11far yet though. Not this far yet. So,
2:12yeah.
2:13That's true. So,
2:14[laughter]
2:15All right. So, today
2:18is procrastination. We are solving
2:19procrastination. Just a reminder to the
2:21listener, the whole premise of this
2:23podcast is that this is the last podcast
2:26that you should ever have to listen to
2:28on this topic. Drew and I and our
2:30research team have gone
2:32just absurdly in-depth researching,
2:35trying to understand this topic. It is
2:38This episode is absolutely
2:39comprehensive. It is
2:41everything you need to know about
2:42procrastination and then some. Uh you're
2:45probably going to want to vomit when you
2:47hear the word procrastination by the end
2:48of this, but the goal is that you don't
2:50have to ever listen to anything about
2:51procrastination ever again. You don't
2:53have to read another book. You don't
2:54have to take another seminar.
2:56It's all here. So,
2:58first, some statistics. Procrastination
3:02is something that
3:04pretty much everybody struggles with.
3:05This is not surprising. 95% of adults
3:08report procrastinating at least some of
3:10the time. To me, the most surprising
3:12part of that stat is who the are
3:13the 5%?
3:14me that.
3:15[laughter]
3:16They're liars.
3:17Who are these superhuman robots that
3:19never procrastinate? Uh yeah, I think 5%
3:22of people are liars. Um
3:2342% of adults report procrastinating
3:26regularly. Uh and then 25% of adults
3:30report being chronic procrastinators,
3:32which is essentially means that you are
3:34just literally procrastinating
3:36everything all of the time. Right.
3:38Anything you try to do, you end up
3:39procrastinating, which that is That's a
3:41shocking amount. 25% of people.
3:43So,
3:44this is a huge problem. This is like
3:47This is a massive affliction that, you
3:50know, gets to us all. Um so, some of the
3:53things that we're going to go through
3:55procrastination as a topic is really
3:57interesting because it it is it is such
3:59a common human occurrence that there is
4:02thought on it going back 2,500 years.
4:05So, we went back 2,500 years and we're
4:07going to cover
4:09basically the entire corpus of human
4:11thought and approach towards
4:12procrastination
4:13since the beginning of civilization and
4:15it's actually kind of surprising because
4:18a lot of things that we take to be true
4:21or a lot of our assumptions of what
4:22procrastination is are relatively
4:24modern. They're not They're They're
4:25pretty recent and and and you know,
4:28people in the ancient world or people in
4:29medieval times
4:31wouldn't necessarily agree with us and
4:32how we approach
4:34the topic of procrastination.
4:36Ultimately, we're going to get to the
4:38bottom of what is procrastination? What
4:40like fundamentally like what is
4:42happening in your brain? What is
4:44happening psychologically when you're
4:45procrastinating something when you're
4:47not doing the thing you know you should
4:48be doing? And why does it happen? Why is
4:51it even possible? Right? Like if I know
4:53something is good for me, like why is it
4:55possible that I can choose not to do
4:58that? That that's like kind of doesn't
4:59make sense in a in a certain
5:01philosophical way.
5:03Of course, we're going to cover all the
5:04latest research on procrastination.
5:05We're actually going to cover the entire
5:06history of research on procrastination
5:09and because a lot of it got it wrong and
5:12a lot of the conventional wisdom and
5:14typical self-help advice today
5:16is based on that old research that got
5:19it wrong and the new research is says
5:22some things quite different than maybe
5:24what you're expecting. And of course, we
5:27are going to go through at least a dozen
5:29different tactics and strategies that
5:31the listener can implement
5:33to help lessen procrastination in their
5:36lives.
5:37I think if there's one thing that I've
5:39learned preparing for this episode Drew
5:41is that I don't think procrastination is
5:43ever something that we just like
5:44completely get rid of.
5:45Mhm.
5:46I think that it is it just seems to be
5:49kind of a side effect or a cost of
5:52being humans who have agency and have
5:54complex brains.
5:56We'll get more into that, but I I do
5:58think it is
6:00incumbent on all of us to do all the
6:02things that we can to lessen or mitigate
6:05the procrastination in our lives, and I
6:06do think that is very much attainable
6:08for most people uh relatively quickly.
6:11So, before we get into it, anything you
6:14want to add, Drew?
6:15Um
6:16What are you most excited for?
6:17I mean, it this is
6:19Oh god. [laughter]
6:21I mean, you hit the nail on the head.
6:23This is a very common, very pervasive
6:25problem. And um we all struggle with it,
6:28and I think there's just there's a
6:29tragedy, kind of a tragic side to it as
6:32well, cuz you know, what what else is
6:34there to do but do the things you want
6:35to do in life, right? And then we put
6:37those things those very things off. So,
6:39I think a lot of people are going to
6:41find there's just going to be a big nod
6:43fest going on while you're listening to
6:45this. And um yeah, I'm excited to get
6:47into it because it's something I
6:49struggle with quite a bit. I I don't
6:51know if I'm a chronic procrastinator,
6:52but I I there's chronic strains of
6:54procrastination that I sometimes run
6:55into for sure. Yeah.
6:57Um I have a lot of experience with this
6:59just being an author, a self-employed
7:01person um for my entire career, so we'll
7:04we'll get into that. And you mentioned
7:05something which is like kind of the
7:06tragedy of it is that what we'll we'll
7:09actually discover later on the episode
7:11is that the proportion of
7:13procrastination is actually
7:15uh directly correlated to how important
7:17we see a task being in our lives. So,
7:20it's like the more important the task
7:22is, the more likely we are to
7:23procrastinate it, which is
7:25so screwed up. Yeah.
7:27[laughter]
7:27Like what Like that's so unfair. Why
7:29does that happen?
7:30Yeah, we'll get into why that is, but
7:31yeah, it's fascinating.
7:33But before we dive in, uh there's going
7:35to be a lot of information in this
7:37podcast. And between me and you and our
7:40research team, I think we went through
7:41like what, 13, 14 books and
7:45100 research articles. So, to help
7:47everyone get through this, we've put
7:49together a companion PDF guide. It's 65
7:53pages, includes a full summary of the
7:55show, all of our citations and
7:56references, has book recommendations,
7:59and it includes some practical takeaways
8:00and lessons as well. So, if you're
8:02listening to this, you can get the PDF
8:04guide for free by going to
8:06solvedpodcast.com/procrastination.
8:10That's
8:11solvedpodcast.com/procrastination.
8:14The link is also in the description if
8:15you want to get it through there. All
8:17right.
8:18Let's get started. Okay. So, let's start
8:21off with
8:22a couple definitions first because it it
8:24I was actually surprised how hard it was
8:26to actually pin down a technical
8:29definition of procrastination. And even
8:31the one that I chose, as we'll see,
8:34there's a little bit of wiggle room with
8:35it. So, there's a researcher named Piers
8:37Steel in up in Canada. He did a big
8:40meta-analysis in 2007, which is
8:42basically what a meta-analysis is is for
8:45listeners is that it when a researcher
8:47takes all of the the relevant studies or
8:49data and then kind of like finds a way
8:51to combine them into like a super study.
8:53So, this guy Steel did this in 2007, and
8:57he crafted this definition of
8:59procrastination based on all the
9:01research at the time, which is this.
9:04Procrastination is the act of
9:05unnecessarily delaying something despite
9:08knowing that there could be negative
9:10consequences for doing so.
9:12And when I look at this, I kind of like
9:14break it down into three factors. So,
9:16the first factor is an unnecessary
9:17delay, right? I think this is important
9:19because prioritization is not
9:21procrastination. Like, if my plan is to
9:25write a script this morning, but
9:29then my wife gets in a car accident and
9:30I have to go to the hospital, like
9:32that's not procrastination because
9:33something more important has now
9:35interfered. It's only when the delay is
9:37completely unnecessary uh and
9:39fabricated. Um the second one is that
9:42there are negative consequences.
9:44So, a lot of times when you delay
9:45something, there are actually are not
9:46negative consequences. There are plenty
9:48of things that you can delay and
9:50there's actually nothing that
9:52immediately There's no immediate
9:53feedback that makes you feel bad for
9:55that. I think
9:56this is why so many people
9:58procrastinate uh things like working out
10:02or eating well because the that feedback
10:05loop is so insanely long. You know, it's
10:07like 10, 20, 30 years before you
10:09actually experience the repercussion for
10:11that decision. Uh it's very easy to
10:14convince yourself that like there is no
10:16downside to eating the pizza tonight and
10:19uh sitting on the couch for another day.
10:21Uh and then finally, the third factor is
10:23despite knowing. And
10:26this is where it gets tricky. Like I
10:28actually found this whole definition
10:30very interesting because all three of
10:31these factors are ultimately subjective.
10:33Like who says a delay is unnecessary?
10:36Mhm.
10:37Who's to decide what's necessary and
10:38what's not necessary, right? Who's to
10:40say what a negative consequence is? Like
10:42you say potato, I say potato.
10:44And who says that you're aware or that
10:47you know? My personal experience is that
10:49most of my procrastination is I'm I'm
10:52usually bullshitting myself on all three
10:54of these factors. I've I've convinced
10:57myself that there is no negative
10:58consequence that's going to happen or
11:00the negative consequence is very minor.
11:01It's not a big deal. I've convinced
11:03myself that the delay is actually
11:04extremely necessary. Like like when else
11:07am I going to be able to watch this
11:08Netflix show if if not for right now?
11:11And and then of course I I
11:13myself of saying that like I'm aware. I
11:15I know that this is going to cause a
11:16negative. It's like well, who knows,
11:18right? Like maybe, you know, a book will
11:20write itself.
11:22[laughter]
11:22Right? It happens all the time.
11:24I definitely ran into this, too, in
11:25talking with people about this, you
11:27know, can I prepping with this and just
11:28talking with people around my life, too.
11:29I definitely ran into this. They're
11:31They're like, well, is it so bad that
11:32you put this off?" Is there I There was
11:34a lot of that that goes into it. So,
11:35yeah, it's very subjective.
11:37It's Yeah.
11:39And it is
11:40there's a whole question around this of
11:42of awareness and knowledge,
11:45which is actually very much Well, we'll
11:47we'll get into that. We're we're getting
11:49getting a little bit ahead of myself.
11:50So, the other thing that kind of
11:51surprised me, and I guess Well, I guess
11:53it makes sense is that there there is a
11:55cultural element to this
11:57that I think is worth discussing, at
11:59least just for a few minutes, especially
12:01cuz I know that the audience for this
12:02podcast is extremely international. So,
12:04it turns out that procrastination is, to
12:07a certain extent, culturally defined or
12:09culturally relative. There are some
12:11cultures where showing up late is not a
12:13huge deal. Turning something in late is
12:16not really judged or viewed as as
12:18something negative. Um
12:20it actually reminded me so I lived in
12:22Brazil for a few years. My wife is
12:24Brazilian and and it's one of the things
12:26that drove me crazy as an American down
12:28there is that if you if you ever do a
12:29business meeting with a Brazilian, um
12:32first of all, they show up like 20
12:33minutes late. Uh then they spend the
12:36first 20 minutes like talking about
12:37their weekend and
12:39telling you about like their kids'
12:40soccer game and
12:42you know, asking you what kind of beer
12:44you like. And uh and then it's like not
12:46until like minute 45 that you actually
12:48get to the thing that you're supposed to
12:49be talking about.
12:50And what's interesting down there is
12:51that if you ever like try to cut that
12:54time down,
12:56they see it as as impolite and rude.
12:59Like, they see you as doing something
13:01wrong.
13:02Um whereas coming from American culture
13:04where I'm like, "Dude, I was here at
13:0510:00 a.m. It's 10:45. We still haven't
13:08even like talked about the the business
13:10thing."
13:11I see it as rude that they're like
13:12wasting my time. So,
13:14this concept of time and
13:17punctuality
13:18uh is very culturally dependent. And
13:22what I found interesting there there's a
13:24social psychologist from from the
13:26Netherlands named Geert Hofstede who did
13:28a bunch of work on just like cultural
13:30factors. He I think he called it
13:32I think it's called cultural dimensions
13:34theory or something like that. And um
13:37he talked about how
13:39certain cultures have different
13:41orientations towards time and they have
13:43different understandings of like
13:45what is something that's done on time or
13:47not. Um so some cultures very much
13:50prioritize so like Western cultures or
13:52like Anglo-Saxon cultures very much
13:54prioritize
13:55uh
13:56like following the clock. Like if I say
13:58we're going to do a thing at 11:30 and
14:01you show up at 11:35
14:03to me you've now delayed things
14:05unnecessarily. It's causing negative
14:06consequences so on and so on. It's
14:08procrastination.
14:10Some cultures if you say 11:30
14:13and they show up at 11:40 as long as
14:15they show up in a way that's like feels
14:18justified or is like emotionally
14:21consistent uh with the people around
14:23them it's not seen as being late. You
14:26know, it's like oh well yeah, we were
14:27going to be here 15 minutes ago but like
14:30uh I was hanging out with my my my
14:31brother and my cousin and we were having
14:33a great conversation um and so it just
14:36took longer. And like that's seen as a
14:38completely justified response. And so
14:40it's interesting that
14:42I guess coming back to the subjectivity
14:44of procrastination some cultures see it
14:46very strictly in terms of
14:49task getting completed on time and some
14:51cultures see it more in terms of like
14:53emotions and relationships. Like in
14:55Brazil if I don't sit there and kind of
14:58chit-chat for 20 minutes
15:00um
15:01that is seen as some sort of
15:03productive failure because I'm not doing
15:05the work to maintain the relationship
15:07with that person.
15:08Okay, yeah.
15:09Anyway, it's just very interesting.
15:11We're not going to spend a ton of time
15:12on this but I like I said I'm bringing
15:14it up simply because we do have a big
15:16international audience. There are going
15:18to be people listening to this in Latin
15:20America and the Middle East and the
15:21Mediterranean and some of these places
15:23that are not so rigid with the clock
15:25itself. They're more kind of emotional,
15:28social, and emotionally based. Um
15:30And it's just worth considering. And I
15:32think it it really just comes back to I
15:34think probably a more effective way to
15:37just frame this entire discussion is
15:40why do we consistently fail at doing the
15:43things we wish we could do? Right? Like
15:45we have things that we know are good for
15:47us.
15:48And we want to do them.
15:50Yet, we don't do them.
15:56Let's go back. I think the best way I
15:59decided the best way to do this is to
16:00just go start at the beginning. So, the
16:03first recorded discussion of
16:07procrastination and what what it is and
16:09why it happens does start with Plato. He
16:12has a few dialogues that get into it.
16:16The first one is uh called Protagoras.
16:19There's a quote from Socrates in there.
16:21He says, "Surely, no one goes willingly
16:23towards the bad or what he believes to
16:25be bad. Neither is it in human nature,
16:27so it seems, to want to go toward what
16:29one believes to be bad instead of the
16:31good." Plato puts forth like a really
16:33interesting argument. He kind of argues
16:35that procrastination like doesn't
16:36actually exist. They're like if you're
16:39not doing the thing, it's because deep
16:42down you actually don't think it's worth
16:43doing. That if you thought it was worth
16:45doing, then you would just go do it. And
16:48it's kind of interesting that the
16:49earliest take ever on procrastination is
16:52like super spicy like that. I wouldn't
16:54expect that.
16:55[laughter]
16:56I would expect something like, you know,
16:57uh
16:59uh I don't know, start small or um you
17:01know, like
17:03[laughter]
17:03give yourself a little reward, a piece
17:05of candy if you like if you do something
17:07that that you've been putting off. And
17:08it's like it Plato's like, "No. No, it's
17:11it's impossible to do something that you
17:13don't think is the best thing to do."
17:15Which
17:16I think just into like our gut
17:17intuition, everybody's gut intuition,
17:19it's just like
17:20that that doesn't feel true. Does that
17:22feel true to you?
17:23Absolutely not, no.
17:24Yeah, like definition you brought up
17:25earlier, we'll get into that a little
17:27more, too, but
17:27Right.
17:28despite knowing part, right?
17:29I just I feel like anybody you talk to,
17:33they've probably got at least
17:35a handful of things in their life that
17:37like they know are good for them and
17:39they don't do it. So,
17:41Plato's full of
17:43[laughter]
17:44No, let's So, okay. I I'm I'm being I'm
17:47being facetious. The interesting thing
17:49about Plato is so all almost all of his
17:53work is written in the forms of
17:55dialogues, and those dialogues revolve
17:57around it's usually Socrates having a
18:01debate, a philosophical debate uh with
18:04some other prominent person. And
18:08in most of the dialogues, Socrates just
18:10kind of like clowns the the person. And
18:14there there's there's a lot of ambiguity
18:16around Plato's work for a couple
18:17reasons. One is
18:19it's sometimes unclear cuz Socrates was
18:21a real person, and Plato was
18:24uh somebody who like followed and
18:26learned from Socrates. So,
18:28especially in in the early dialogues, it
18:31is hard to differentiate between what
18:33Socrates thought
18:35and what and Plato's just reporting what
18:38he thought versus like what Plato
18:39actually thinks and he's just putting
18:41his words in the Socrates's mouth.
18:44So, there's a lot of ambiguity around
18:46that. And Socrates
18:48uh had a reputation for being a bit of a
18:50troll. The second piece of ambiguity is
18:53that sometimes Plato would just create a
18:55dialogue to just kind of raise points
18:58and play with those ideas.
19:00And because they were it was a
19:02conversation between
19:03uh two historical figures, it's
19:06sometimes unclear if he actually
19:07believes what he's writing. So,
19:10later on in the Republic, which was
19:11actually uh
19:13seems to be very clearly
19:15Plato's thoughts and ideas. Um he kind
19:18of backtracked a little bit. And in the
19:21Republic is the first place that you see
19:22this idea of what he called the
19:24tripartite soul. And it's he basically
19:27says that the the mind is divided up
19:28into three different parts. And it And
19:30it's actually pretty incredible cuz this
19:32idea still persists today. Like you
19:33still see it all over psychology and
19:35philosophy today.
19:36So, the three parts of the mind is he
19:39called the the rational, the spirit, and
19:41the appetitive.
19:43One way to think about that is that
19:44there's like the animalistic self, the
19:46part of you that has hunger and impulses
19:49and cravings. There's the emotional part
19:52of yourself, that's the spirit, right?
19:54It's the anger, it's the love, it's the
19:56passion, it's the joy, it's the sadness.
19:58And then you have the rational, which is
19:59like the calculating and um the the
20:03logic and all that stuff.
20:05Plato's argument is that
20:07he used the metaphor of a chariot, which
20:10is that the rational part of yourself is
20:13like the
20:15driver in a chariot and he has two
20:17horses in front of him. One horse is the
20:20animalistic appetitive part of yourself.
20:22The other one is the spirit emotional
20:24part of yourself.
20:25And it is your job to guide those horses
20:29in the right direction.
20:31But
20:32they're wild horses. And so, sometimes
20:34they're going to buck and they're going
20:35to run and they're going to go try to go
20:36in different directions and it's going
20:37to be chaotic, right?
20:39And in the Republic, Plato said that it
20:43is
20:44essentially what procrastination is or
20:47back then they called it acrasia.
20:49Basically this experience of not doing
20:51the thing that you know you should do
20:53is when
20:55essentially your horses don't go where
20:57you want them to go.
20:58It's like
21:00hey, we should go to the gym and the
21:01horses just start going towards the
21:03fridge.
21:04[laughter]
21:05For another piece of cold pizza.
21:07And you're like, wait, no.
21:10[laughter]
21:11And then next thing you know, you're
21:13there. And so I feel like that is a
21:15little bit more relatable and a little
21:17bit more understandable, but I think
21:19that the takeaway from Plato is that
21:22he ultimately saw acrasia
21:26or procrastination as a knowledge
21:28problem. It was
21:30your problem isn't that you don't have
21:34willpower. The problem isn't that you
21:35don't have discipline. The problem is
21:36that you just aren't aware enough of the
21:40repercussions of your choices.
21:42He kind of puts forth this argument that
21:44like if people were just more
21:46knowledgeable and educated on
21:49what their choices were causing in their
21:52life,
21:53they wouldn't make those choices. And I
21:56personally think this is a very
21:57idealistic view. I think it's
22:00it feels nice. I mean, there's something
22:02to it clearly like knowledge certainly
22:05does help probably at the margins. But I
22:08also just think it's it's I don't know.
22:10It's too like roses and rainbows. It
22:13doesn't match my personal experience. Uh
22:15and I don't think it matches most of the
22:17people that I know who really struggle
22:19with procrastination and and not doing
22:20the right thing. Um
22:23but it is it's a nice
22:25it feels good to believe. It feels good
22:27to believe that like oh, if I just
22:30understood what I was doing when I was
22:33going back to the fridge instead of the
22:35gym, then I wouldn't do it so much. And
22:37you actually like you still see this a
22:39lot. It's funny. I'm going to I'm not
22:41going to name names, but um
22:43I was on social media the other day
22:46and I see this stuff all the time. So
22:48this is a very prominent person in our
22:50space posted this.
22:52They said, your entire life will change
22:54when you realize that you have to
22:55sacrifice short-term freedom in order to
22:58earn long-term freedom. Instant
22:59gratification will kill your dreams.
23:02It has over a quarter of a million views
23:05and 7,000 likes, right? No
23:09Sherlock.
23:09Right.
23:10[laughter]
23:11Like everybody knows that.
23:13the information that we
23:14We all know that. Like it it's not
23:16you're not moving the needle by telling
23:18us that. But I think there is a part of
23:21ourselves, a very idealistic part of
23:23ourselves, that just feels like if we
23:25were reminded of that
23:26then it wouldn't be so hard.
23:31to get up early you know, put on your
23:32workout shoes and you know, start with
23:36the hardest task of your day and you
23:38know, all those things that we wish we
23:39could do.
23:40So, that's kind of the first school of
23:43thought. We're going to return to it
23:44quite a bit. It it like most of Plato's
23:47ideas
23:48they never really go away. It's
23:50interesting, we actually you and I
23:52talked to
23:53pretty much the most prominent
23:54researcher on procrastination in the
23:56world, Fuschia Sirois.
23:59And even talking to her, she brought
24:01this up multiple times. This never
24:03really disappears, but it starts it
24:05starts with Plato.
24:07The second school of thought I want to
24:08bring up So, around the same time the
24:10Buddha was doing his thing and
24:13Buddhism has an interesting kind of
24:14spin-off of the the Platonic idea that
24:16that I think is worth talking about just
24:18briefly simply because I think when
24:21towards the end of the end of the
24:22episode when we talk about interventions
24:24and tactics and strategies, there is a
24:26little bit of the Buddhist
24:28approach that I think makes sense.
24:31So, Buddhism saw procrastination as
24:32ignorance of oneself. You know, Plato
24:34saw it as like an ignorance of the
24:36consequences of your action. The Buddha
24:38saw it as an ignorance of your own
24:40cravings and desires. Not understanding
24:43what your own motivations were, which I
24:45think is a really interesting twist and
24:47I
24:48I actually think there's probably a lot
24:49more value in the Buddhist approach.
24:53Like I just know from my own life you
24:55know, I like as you know, I went through
24:56this huge weight loss journey over many
24:58years and a big component of that was
25:01like really understanding
25:03where my food cravings were coming from.
25:06What was causing my distractions when I
25:07couldn't focus or or or get any work
25:09done. And sure enough usually there's
25:11like some emotion underneath the surface
25:14that's like driving things and becoming
25:16aware of that or mindful of that and
25:18then
25:19um learning how to how to deal or
25:21negotiate with that emotion is super
25:23useful. Uh so I I I thought like the
25:27Buddhist twist on the ignorance is is on
25:30the procrastination as a knowledge
25:32issue. Um I actually think there's
25:35it carries some water.
25:36Sticking with Eastern philosophy I just
25:38want to touch really quick on
25:39Confucianism. Um
25:41from I'm not I'm by no means an expert
25:43on Confucianism, but uh by the little
25:45bit of research I did it didn't seem
25:47like there was a whole lot directly
25:48written about it, but the interesting
25:50thing about Confucianism
25:52is that there's so much emphasis put on
25:55accountability and social pressure.
25:57Um everything in Confucianism is kind of
25:59written in such a way of like you have
26:02to do the right thing to honor your
26:04family, your society, your your country,
26:07your emperor, whatever.
26:09There's a nugget in there as well that's
26:10actually really important and useful
26:12that we will come back to much later,
26:13but that social pressure and
26:15accountability is like a legit thing.
26:18Um
26:19this finally brings us to Aristotle. So
26:22Aristotle
26:23in the Nicomachean Ethics wrote quite a
26:26bit about akrasia
26:28uh or procrastination. He wrote quite a
26:31bit about why people don't do the things
26:34that they they should be doing.
26:36And
26:37I have to say dude like as somebody who
26:41has studied the psychology around this
26:43for a decade
26:46going back and reading Aristotle's take,
26:48I'm like
26:50oh he nailed it. Mhm. Like the dude just
26:53nailed it.
26:53[laughter]
26:54Over 2,000 years ago.
26:56Yeah, like 2,300 years ago. He's just
26:57like
26:58in one chapter, just like here's why we
27:00don't do the things that we know we
27:02should do. So,
27:04Aristotle essentially, here's like the
27:06super condensed version of what he says.
27:09Aristotle essentially saw
27:11procrastination as a skill issue.
27:13He said like any other skill,
27:15we all are born terrible at it.
27:18Uh and then as we grow older, we develop
27:22and practice and and habituate ourselves
27:24to it. And anybody can learn to do it.
27:28Anybody can practice it. Anybody can
27:30develop the skill or discipline. And
27:33like any skill or discipline, some
27:34people are naturally extremely gifted at
27:36it. And some people are naturally
27:39not gifted at it, right? What's also
27:41interesting about this view is that he
27:42kind of puts his middle finger up to
27:43Plato. He's just like, "Dude,
27:46we all don't do the things we know we
27:48should do. Like we all know we should do
27:50certain things and we just fail to do
27:52them."
27:52you, yeah.
27:53Yeah, seriously. Like it's like wake up,
27:55man.
27:56[laughter]
27:57But what I like about Aristotle as well
27:59is that it's there was no moral judgment
28:02or shame attached to it. This is
28:04actually what's super unique and
28:05interesting and like way ahead of his
28:07time. With Plato, it was
28:10there was a little bit of like, "Well,
28:13they're not doing the right thing just
28:15cuz they're they're ignorant. They're
28:16uneducated. They're not as privileged as
28:18you and I are, right? They're not as
28:20enlightened as us." You know, in the
28:22Buddhist view, there's if you're not
28:23doing the right thing, like you got to
28:24get right with yourself, dude. Like, you
28:26know, sit on a mat and meditate for
28:29a few years and and and like figure out
28:32what the hell's going on in your head.
28:33You know, the Confucius system, it's
28:35like you're dishonoring your family and
28:37you're you're screwing up society. Like,
28:39get your together. Aristotle's
28:41like, "Hey, man,
28:42we all struggle with this. This is a a
28:45for all of us.
28:47And it's something that any of us can
28:48get better at. Any of us can practice
28:50it. We can develop the right habits. We
28:52can develop the right skills.
28:54And you can And you can improve upon it.
28:56And so, I think
28:57the first takeaway around all of this is
29:00that
29:01ultimately, there are like there's a
29:02little bit of truth in everything that
29:04each of those schools of thought said.
29:06There You know, some of it is knowledge
29:09of the repercussions that are going to
29:10happen if you
29:12I don't know, stay up till 4:00 a.m. on
29:13a Tuesday night.
29:15Some of it is understanding your own
29:17internal
29:19awareness and emotions and you know,
29:20what's motivating you, what's driving
29:22you. Some of it is finding good
29:24accountability systems and social
29:26pressure to like nudge you in the right
29:27direction. But ultimately,
29:30this is a skill issue. It's something
29:32that you can learn. It's something you
29:34can get better at. And
29:37it's something that you have to to try
29:38to get better at. So,
29:40I'm curious, Drew,
29:42have you seen
29:44your procrastination as a skill issue?
29:47Uh
29:48because I certainly haven't most of my
29:50life. I'm curious what your experience
29:52has been.
29:52Yeah, I I think there is just a lot of
29:54that self-judgment that goes into it.
29:55And I've always thought, yeah, if I just
29:57knew a little bit more had the the right
29:59information at the right time, then I
30:01would be a better person.
30:03Yeah, so [laughter] uh you know, morally
30:05corrupt.
30:05Yeah.
30:06Uh and and bankrupt in my ways. But um
30:09yeah, it's it's interesting that each
30:11one of these kind of schools of thought
30:12took one angle at it. And it's like,
30:14yeah, you got that right, but you got
30:15this completely wrong.
30:16Yeah.
30:17And I I feel that within myself even too
30:19today. So, yeah, definitely.
30:21Yeah.
30:22I think I started seeing it as a skill
30:23issue
30:25relatively late in my life. I would say
30:27like well into adulthood.
30:30Like I I have vague memories in my 20s
30:32of like starting my first business and
30:34just being like
30:36incredibly upset at myself for
30:39playing too many video games or
30:41[clears throat]
30:42not being able to finish a work task in
30:45the amount of time that I allotted for
30:47myself. Like just really chastising
30:49myself and beating myself up over it.
30:52Uh and I I feel like that's
30:55that's the default for most people.
30:56[clears throat]
30:56Like there is a shame and there's a
30:58moral judgment. And what I found super
31:00fascinating and surprising is that that
31:03moral judgment is is for the most part
31:06didn't exist in the ancient world. You
31:07know, Aristotle saw saw uh
31:10acrasia or or doing the right action. He
31:12saw he he had he had a
31:14a whole ethical system around virtue,
31:16right? The virtues were like the right
31:18way to live.
31:20But Aristotle was very aware that like
31:22nobody is virtuous all the time. The
31:24virtues are never achieved. They're
31:26They're just something that you work
31:27towards and you get better at over time.
31:29And everybody's going to screw it up.
31:31Everybody's going to fail to a certain
31:32extent. And so the only thing you can do
31:35is just try to fail less.
31:37And [clears throat] if you look at the
31:38Stoics, there's there's a very similar
31:40vein there, right? It's like you should
31:41try to be virtuous. The Stoics were a
31:43little bit more platonic in that they
31:44saw it as more of a a lack like a
31:47knowledge problem, but
31:49it it's still the same attitude of like
31:52nobody's virtuous all the time. Nobody
31:54gets it right all the time.
31:56Just get up each day and try to do your
31:57best and try not to dwell on on your
31:59failures and and things like that. And
32:01it's it's so fascinating
32:03like going back and looking at those
32:07takes
32:08because that doesn't feel like anything
32:11I heard growing up.
32:12[laughter]
32:13Right. I I I heard that you were a you
32:16were a a immoral piece of who's
32:18irresponsible and is failing yourself
32:20and failing your future and failing your
32:22family. And like it it is there's so
32:24much moral judgment, especially I guess
32:27in western culture, but I think eastern
32:28culture as well. There's so much moral
32:30judgment wrapped up in your ability
32:33to be disciplined.
32:35You know, like I I think about people
32:36who are obese or overweight. Like one of
32:39the huge judgments against them, it's
32:41not about the unhealthiness. It's about
32:44the apparent lack of discipline.
32:46Right? Like I've been around people who
32:48have
32:49said really mean things about overweight
32:52people and it's it's it's never about
32:54the weight. It's about the like why
32:56can't they control themselves? Why can't
32:58they like
32:59keep food out of their mouths?
33:00Right. How could you let yourself go to
33:01that extent, you know?
33:02Right. And it And we have similar
33:04judgments like if somebody loses their
33:05job or
33:07if somebody doesn't make a lot of money,
33:09um
33:10it it it's there's like a moral
33:13judgment. It it's And we just we joked
33:15about it earlier, right? It's like if I
33:17showed up an hour late for this shoot,
33:19you would judge me.
33:20Yes.
33:21[laughter]
33:21Yes, I would.
33:22Yes, you would.
33:24[gasps]
33:25So, it's interesting that that didn't
33:27always exist. Like [clears throat] that
33:29that is
33:30it started somewhere along the line. And
33:34drum roll, do you want to guess where it
33:35started?
33:36[laughter]
33:37I have a good idea, but why don't you go
33:38ahead?
33:39I'll give you one. It starts with a
33:41Chris and it ends with a Christianity.
33:43Yeah.
33:43Yeah. [laughter]
33:45One of the seven deadly sins, right?
33:47Yes, sloth. Exactly. Exactly.
33:50So, [snorts] interestingly, there's
33:52actually kind of a particular moment in
33:54time that I think you can point to
33:57Mhm.
33:58where you can
33:59you can actually say this is the moment
34:02that procrastination and a failure to
34:05act became a moral problem.
34:08It became a a shame-ridden failure that
34:11that signifies that you are a a piece of
34:14scum.
34:15[laughter]
34:15Essentially.
34:16Right.
34:17So, the story actually starts in in the
34:19late 4th century. St. Augustine of Hippo
34:23was born in what is present-day Tunisia
34:25and he would go on and become basically
34:27the most important theologian
34:29of pretty much anybody who didn't live
34:31during Christ's time.
34:33And but it's interesting because
34:36Augustine
34:38he was born pagan. He grew up, he was a
34:40rich kid. His parents were like
34:42aristocrats. He He was kind of like that
34:45douchebag with a Ferrari in high school.
34:46Like he just not a care in the world,
34:49screwed around, partied all the time,
34:52was drinking a lot, seeing a bunch of
34:54different girls. Just life was on easy
34:56mode. But the interesting thing about
34:58Augustine was that he was very smart.
35:01And he was very philosophical. And so he
35:03would he became curious about a bunch of
35:06different religions and
35:10I guess you call them cults
35:11uh throughout his early adult life. He
35:13kind of dabbled in a bunch of different
35:15schools of thought.
35:17Now, the interesting thing is that the
35:20Roman Empire had just converted to
35:21Christianity uh maybe 50 years prior.
35:25And you have this gigantic empire and
35:28what essentially was kind of this fringe
35:30cult religion, which was Christianity,
35:33suddenly becomes the state religion and
35:36is now expected to be followed by like
35:37tens of millions of people. So, there
35:39was kind of this vacuum of
35:42strong theological knowledge that didn't
35:45exist at the time. There was like an
35:47early opportunity to fill that void,
35:49that theological void. Like they they
35:51needed like very smart people to kind of
35:53like create frameworks and philosophical
35:56ideas that
35:58the masses could understand and
36:00implement into their lives. And so
36:02Augustine
36:04would end up filling that void to a
36:06great extent. And he would be the one
36:08who would take Christian thought and
36:11combine it with Plato and
36:15kind of turn it into
36:17early Christian theology and the the the
36:19Catholic theology as we understand it
36:21today.
36:23But the way he went about that is super
36:24fascinating. So, he was this playboy.
36:27he's screwing around all the time, and
36:29he's like drifting, you know, from this
36:32religious sect to this religious sect.
36:34And by the time he gets to his late 20s,
36:36he's he he becomes pretty self-loathing.
36:38Like I think he he's at this point he's
36:41self-aware that he is a very smart,
36:44talented guy who's been handed every
36:46privilege and advantage in the world,
36:49and he's done nothing with it. He's like
36:51absolutely wasted everything. So, this
36:54goes on for a number of years, and he's
36:55just he's really looking for something
36:58to commit himself to,
37:00and all the while he's like
37:02kind of disgusted with himself. He's
37:04like, "Why do I keep doing Why do I keep
37:05drinking? Why do I keep
37:08hooking up with all these women that I
37:09don't care about?" And like, "Why can't
37:12I just get my together?" And
37:15one day he's sitting in a garden,
37:17and he's reading,
37:19and
37:20he hears a child singing outside saying,
37:24"Pick up the paper and read it. Pick up
37:26the paper and read it." Singing this
37:27like little lullaby or something. And
37:29so, he happens to look down, and he sees
37:32a parchment paper.
37:34He's like, "Huh."
37:35So, he picks it up, and he starts
37:37reading it.
37:38And it's
37:39Paul's letter to the Romans,
37:41verse 13:13, and it says,
37:45"Let us behave decently, as in the
37:47daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness,
37:50not in the sexual immorality and
37:52debauchery, not in dissension and
37:54jealousy."
37:57And Augustine claims that he converted
37:58to Christianity right there on the spot.
38:01He was like,
38:02"This is it. This is a sign."
38:04Drops everything, immediately goes to
38:07seminary,
38:08trains to become a priest, and then
38:10within a couple of years goes on to
38:11become
38:13the most prolific and successful
38:15Christian preacher
38:17in the Roman Empire.
38:18Mhm.
38:19He gave I think 2,500 sermons or
38:22something like that, of which like half
38:24are still around today.
38:26He was just like a prodigy of preaching,
38:30I guess.
38:30[laughter]
38:32But what's super interesting is that he
38:35has this personal history of like he was
38:38kind of this He's like this playboy
38:40wasting his life, and then he finds God,
38:42and God saves him, right? Like he
38:45doesn't drink anymore. He doesn't
38:46fornicate anymore. He doesn't
38:49screw around anymore. He's like very
38:51diligent and disciplined, and he's
38:53working his ass off, and he's like
38:54achieving his potential, and he
38:56attributes all of this to God. So, in
38:59his book, The Confessions, he talks
39:01about acrasia. He talks about He gives
39:03an example of when he was a boy of
39:05stealing fruit from a local market, and
39:08he talks about how
39:10he stole the fruit. He didn't need the
39:12fruit. He wasn't hungry.
39:13Uh he didn't need the money. He wasn't
39:15going to sell it to anybody else. He
39:17stole it for the thrill of it.
39:18Mhm.
39:19He stole it because it was something
39:21exciting to do to kind of impress the
39:22other boys that he was hanging out with.
39:25And
39:27he looked at that
39:30and with a very Platonic lens, he said,
39:33there was a lower desire. They're the
39:35lower values of the excitement, the
39:37thrill, impressing the
39:40the people around him. But then there's
39:42this higher-level value of of fairness
39:44and justice and
39:46um
39:47you know, not being selfish, and
39:49his argument was that
39:52anytime we sacrifice that higher-level
39:55value for the lower-level value,
39:57that we succumb to our
40:00animalistic impulses or urges or desires
40:03at the cost of
40:06kind of the higher-level rational,
40:08intellectual, spiritual values.
40:12Not only is that a failure, that's a
40:13sin. That is
40:16you're not it's not You're not violating
40:18yourself. You're not violating your
40:20family. You're violating God because
40:23God's will is that you do these other
40:25things
40:26and you are
40:27failing God's will
40:29to indulge your animalistic
40:33behaviors and impulses and cravings. And
40:35as soon as God enters the picture,
40:38gets moral really quick, right?
40:41Like it's it's if you're suddenly it's
40:44like your procrastination or your
40:46failure to do the right thing for
40:47yourself,
40:48it's not about failing yourself. Like
40:50now you are actually sinning
40:54and becoming a corrupt individual. And
40:58that is shameful and you should repent.
41:01And you the the only path to salvation
41:03is to surrender yourself even further to
41:06God and to Jesus and to give even more
41:08of your life over to the church.
41:10And so this is where you see the shame
41:13indoctrination really began.
41:16And
41:17without getting into like too extensive
41:19of of a commentary on Christianity
41:21itself, it was interesting reading
41:23Augustine
41:25in this context because I couldn't help
41:28but but view it as like a it's like a
41:31multi-level marketing scheme or
41:32something where like it's basically like
41:35you create the problem for for people
41:38and then you sell them the solution,
41:40right? So it's it's it really felt like,
41:43you know,
41:44Augustine is basically going around and
41:46taking this experience that we all have
41:48and we all already kind of feel bad
41:50about and are a little bit sensitive
41:51about. And he's like, "Hey, that thing
41:54that you feel bad about, that means
41:56you're a piece of and God God hates
41:58you. And the only way he's going to stop
42:00hating you is if you come to church and
42:03uh
42:04confess all your sins." And I'm like,
42:06man, that is that's like that's
42:08aggressive, that's to say [laughter] the
42:10least. And and look, I'm we're not here
42:12to comment on religion uh or or make any
42:15sort of like theological arguments, but
42:19let's just say from a a mental health
42:21point of view,
42:22not optimal. Not optimal. From a
42:24productivity point of view, also not
42:26optimal.
42:27Okay, yeah, so we can't we can't get
42:29into the shame stuff then. Uh
42:31Yeah, I mean
42:31We can get into some of that right now.
42:32Cuz like I said, I think it's a big
42:34misconception that most people have.
42:35Most people What I have found is that a
42:37lot of people are afraid to relinquish
42:38that self-judgment.
42:40Right.
42:40Because they're afraid if they go easy
42:42on themselves, quote unquote,
42:45then they they won't do the thing.
42:47Right.
42:47Right? And it's like actually the
42:48research says the opposite.
42:50The exact opposite. So this happens a
42:51lot, yeah.
42:52So I I think this is like a useful
42:54place to make this point and kind of
42:56discuss like why this happens or what it
42:58is.
42:58Yeah.
42:59Yeah, well, they do find that, exactly.
43:01That that
43:02people who experience a lot of shame,
43:03especially around things like
43:04procrastination or any things that they
43:07deem to be character flaws, uh they
43:09actually end up putting things off more.
43:11They don't end up doing them more. And
43:13it's because that shame creates this
43:16kind of motivation for avoidance around
43:18these things. You don't want to feel
43:19that shame, and so you just avoid doing
43:20it all together in the first place. And
43:22you get this very very vicious cycle
43:25that goes along with it. So you there's
43:27this self-judgment cycle that comes with
43:29it, right? Like you feel ashamed for
43:32delaying.
43:33Then this shame makes you uncomfortable,
43:35and to escape that shame that you feel
43:37now,
43:38you further procrastinate.
43:39more.
43:40You distract yourself. You You give in
43:42to those lower values that that
43:44Augustine talked about. So that's
43:47the studies around this have really
43:48found that it's the exact opposite. This
43:50doesn't happen all the time, but a lot
43:52of times it will be Yeah, we have these
43:53intuitions around Oh, I I need to feel
43:55this way in order to get things done.
43:57Or I think my brain works this way, and
43:59so I'm just going to keep doing this.
44:01When it's like step back,
44:03there's actually a a
44:05a
44:05kind of deeper issue going on here.
44:07Yeah.
44:08Avoidance is really what what comes from
44:10that self-loathing and that shame. Yeah.
44:12Well, at least to me, some of the most
44:14interesting research that I saw around
44:15this was actually in workplace research.
44:18So, they actually there are a number of
44:19studies that they like looked at how
44:22shame-based the feedback is in certain
44:25workplaces. And then they tracked
44:27employee productivity and also
44:30absenteeism, how many people stuck
44:32around. Basically looking at like who
44:34who like who has the boss and
44:36like how how do employees respond to
44:38that boss? And
44:40uh
44:41surprise, surprise, shame-based
44:43workplaces,
44:44they did one study on nurses in a
44:47hospital and they looked
44:48at supervisors who would like shame the
44:50nurses for their mistakes and
44:52for for not completing all their tasks
44:55or whatever. And sure enough, those
44:57nurses
44:59showed up less often to work, they got
45:01through fewer rounds, they spent less
45:03time with the patients, and
45:06they quit more often. So,
45:08Yeah, I think [clears throat] some
45:08researchers too interpret that as you
45:10are violating your sense someone's sense
45:12of autonomy too, right? If you shame
45:14them, you're saying you're a bad person
45:15you don't have any um
45:17control over whether or not
45:20you can
45:21do something about this. Whereas if
45:23you're much more gentle and much more
45:24compassionate about it, you're like,
45:25"Okay, this is how we fix it." It goes
45:26back to the skills thing, right?
45:28just going to say we're going to come
45:29back to seeing procrastination as a
45:30skill issue a little bit later. And it
45:33it it is
45:34mind-boggling to me though that like
45:37that got lost Yeah. For thousands of
45:40years.
45:40Yeah, when when it was the norm before.
45:42That was just how people thought of it.
45:44And then it completely got destroyed.
45:46Right. Cuz it's it is what you do see in
45:48this whole kind of Christian era
45:51through the medieval period and
45:52everything is just like if you don't do
45:54the right thing, it's cuz you're a bad
45:56person. If you if you can't get your
45:58work done, you're a bad person. And you
46:01screwed up and I don't I don't want to
46:03be around you, right? Again, I still
46:06feel the residue of this, you know, of
46:08like growing up in a Western culture
46:10like and I I I I know
46:13people who grew up in Confucian cultures
46:15experience this a lot too cuz that that
46:16is also very shameful. It's it's less
46:18about God, it's more about family.
46:20Mhm.
46:20[clears throat]
46:20When you grow up in that, it's so hard
46:22to escape it and and it is like I still
46:24catch myself like judging people.
46:27yeah.
46:27Yeah, just being like, oh, look at that
46:29guy. Like can't even get his
46:30together, you know, like what a joke.
46:32Yeah, you're judging other people or
46:33judging yourself too, again, going back
46:35to the shame thing. And um and this
46:37isn't just applicable to
46:39procrastination, but anything where you
46:40kind of have this kind of self-loathing
46:42or self-criticism that's very loud
46:44Yeah.
46:45inside your head. It will It will create
46:47avoidance, not approach, right? And so
46:50that's something to keep in mind all
46:51throughout this.
46:52So what is the opposite of self-judgment
46:55or self-shaming?
46:56I self-acceptance, right?
46:58Self-compassion.
46:59Okay. What does that look like?
47:00Well, uh
47:01I hate myself, Drew. How do I stop?
47:04Well, [laughter]
47:05make make the self-loathing stop.
47:08Pretend I'm your friend, Mark.
47:10[laughter]
47:10Okay. Okay.
47:12If you heard me saying that, you would
47:13be like, "Whoa, dude.
47:15Yeah.
47:15God, take it easy on yourself, right?
47:17Totally.
47:17This is kind of the the standard advice
47:19to a lot of people is when you're when
47:21you want to be more self-compassionate
47:22and and kinder to yourself, treat
47:24yourself like a friend. Step back,
47:26detach yourself a little bit from the
47:28whole situation and be like, "Okay,
47:29what's really going on here? How can I
47:32be a little bit more understanding of my
47:34own actions?
47:35Yeah.
47:35And
47:37knowing some of these reasons, having
47:38some self-awareness around these reasons
47:39of why I'm doing this, and being like,
47:42"Okay, I need to address these. Let's
47:43move forward."
47:44Yeah.
47:44Which I think is kind of the way things
47:46were even with Plato and his
47:48maybe a little bit muddied of thinking
47:50around procrastination. I still think
47:52there was a lot of that prior to this
47:54whole injection of shame into the
47:56culture
47:56Yeah.
47:57doing getting things done.
47:58That would be an interesting exercise. I
47:59mean, if if if you're listening to this
48:02and this is something that you really
48:03struggle with, like that could
48:04potentially be a really useful exercise
48:07of like write down your self-talk around
48:10this stuff. And then go back later and
48:13read it and just probably be horrified
48:15by by it.
48:17I've been there, [laughter] yeah.
48:19But it's it's a
48:21it's one of those things that we don't
48:22notice it when we do it to ourselves.
48:24That that self-compassion does uh
48:26creates that space for approach, like I
48:28was saying, instead of avoidance. So, it
48:30if if you're if you know you're you're
48:32in a safe space, you know, in your own
48:34mind, that opens up a uh
48:36a a space for exploring what's actually
48:40going on. And then taking action.
48:41Whereas, again, the shame just creates a
48:43lot of avoidance around it, yeah.
48:45The the thing I like about
48:46self-compassion, too, is that it it's
48:48not And this is a point I made in Subtle
48:49Art is that, you know, it it's
48:52the flaw with self-esteem as a as a
48:55metric, in my opinion, is is like it's
48:58it became, through a lot of the
48:59research, it became a measurement of how
49:02people felt about themselves when they
49:04did good things. Whereas, like, what you
49:06really want to measure is like how do
49:07people feel about themselves when things
49:09go bad, right? And that's that's where
49:11the self-compassion comes in. It's like,
49:13okay, let's let's actually measure how
49:15you treat yourself when nothing is going
49:17right because
49:19that's actually a probably a better,
49:21more accurate metric of your mental
49:23health and your well-being and your life
49:25satisfaction and all that stuff. So,
49:27the other thing that's
49:28interesting with the the self-compassion
49:30research is that a big component of it,
49:32a big step in it, is
49:34finding shared humanity.
49:36It's funny cuz it's just
49:38again, thinking about this, 95% of
49:41people It's what you opened with, right?
49:42Yeah. Like, literally, a survey asking
49:45people, "Do you struggle with
49:46procrastination?" 95%
49:48of people said they do. Like, I don't
49:50I'm not aware of any other problem
49:53that that scores that high.
49:55No, yeah. I I can't think of any either.
49:56Yeah.
49:57Yeah. So,
49:58Yeah, and I think it's about 5% of the
50:00population is considered psychopaths,
50:02too. So, maybe that's where the 5%
50:03[laughter] are. I don't know.
50:06They're just or or they're like androids
50:07Right. Secretly walking among us. It was
50:11so interesting though that when we were
50:12talking to um
50:14to Fuchsia
50:15Sarah, like
50:17I actually asked asked her. I was like,
50:19"Do those 5% actually exist?" And she
50:20said, "Absolutely." Can you imagine?
50:24[laughter]
50:24Well, what that must feel like?
50:26I I wonder what that's like. There's
50:27some downsides to that though, too,
50:28right? Like sometimes you need to
50:29prioritize and sometimes you need to
50:31delay. Like what if you're jumping into
50:32things a little too much? So, maybe it's
50:35I don't know. Maybe it's on a bell curve
50:36or something. I don't I don't know, but
50:39Yeah.
50:39To me,
50:40okay, getting off on a little bit of a
50:42tangent here, but like to me
50:45a certain amount of procrasti- Yeah,
50:46like an optimal level of procrastination
50:48is probably not zero, right? Because
50:50there there is a certain weight
50:53that comes with like really really
50:55important tasks in your life. And that
50:57that weight is intimidating. And And
50:59sure, as a human, you find ways to delay
51:02it or put it off or avoid it in this way
51:04or that. I kind of like that. I don't
51:06know. Maybe maybe I'm being irrational
51:07here and like kind of playing the same
51:09game with the with the shame stuff where
51:10it's like I'm afraid that if if I don't
51:12procrastinate something, it means it
51:14doesn't have weight or importance. But
51:15like
51:16I don't know. I kind of like that there
51:18are certain things in my life that
51:19intimidate me a little bit that
51:22make me anxious. Because it it signifies
51:25to me that I'm doing something very
51:26worthwhile. And
51:29I don't know. Yeah, I worry that if I
51:30had zero procrastination that I would
51:32just kind of see everything in like you
51:33said, a psychopath. I would just see
51:34everything in my life is just another
51:36task to be done. And
51:38uh you just get on with it and you don't
51:40you know, what's the point in stressing
51:41over it.
51:42[clears throat]
51:42I I would be curious. Any listeners out
51:45out who Well, I don't know why they'd be
51:46listening to this, but like [laughter]
51:48if for some reason you are one of these
51:50freaks who who does not procrastinate,
51:52I'd be very curious to hear from them.
51:55Like what their experience is or why
51:58like what what is your thought process
51:59when when there's a really important
52:01task in front of you, what is the
52:03emotional experience of that task? I'd
52:04be very curious. I actually just thought
52:06of something related to the
52:07self-compassion as well.
52:09Something [clears throat] else like
52:11it's funny when we're judging ourselves,
52:13I think we we like get very skewed
52:16perceptions of what's actually normal.
52:17Like I remember I used to feel this
52:20back when I was writing all the time,
52:22which is like
52:24I would set a goal of for myself, right?
52:26Like I'm going to publish three articles
52:28a week of at least 2,000 words a piece,
52:31right? So 6,000 words a week.
52:34Which is a really good clip of writing.
52:35Yeah.
52:36And then if I didn't hit that
52:38expectation, I would judge myself. But
52:41then I'd go talk to other writers and
52:43they're like, man, I'm lucky if I get
52:45like 300 words in an entire day, right?
52:47So it's like our understanding of like
52:49what is normal and expected and and like
52:52reasonable can often get completely
52:55warped in our own heads, especially when
52:56we're judging ourselves.
52:58Uh and so it's again it kind of comes
53:00back to that subjectivity thing. Like
53:02the same way we can kind of
53:03ourselves in one direction and tell
53:05ourselves that, oh yeah, I can, you
53:07know, I'll do it tomorrow. It's not
53:08going to be a big deal. We can also
53:10ourselves in the other
53:11direction by saying like, oh you're
53:13you're absolutely horrible person.
53:16You know, you only worked out for 90
53:17minutes. You should be working out for 2
53:19hours cuz
53:20you're just lazy if you don't do that.
53:22So it's just
53:23it's useful to understand that I guess
53:25that
53:26our minds are just
53:28crazy and wrong in in all sorts of
53:30different directions and it can it can
53:31screw us up.
53:32Especially when looking at ourselves,
53:33yeah.
53:34Yeah. I have to say in prepping for both
53:36this episode and the last episode, I'm
53:38like, dude, Aristotle got everything
53:40right.
53:41Yeah.
53:42Like that guy nailed everything.
53:43Plato gets a lot of credit,
53:44[clears throat] but Aristotle actually,
53:46yeah.
53:46Between happiness, values, and virtues,
53:50uh and and this stuff, self-discipline,
53:53and acrasia, and procrastination,
53:54everything, like
53:56Aristotle nailed like half of psychology
53:58before there was such a thing as
54:00psychology. So,
54:01shout out to Aristotle.
54:05So, in like the 12th century,
54:07there was an Arab an Arab scholar living
54:10in present-day Spain named Averroes, and
54:13he translated He was the first person to
54:14translate Aristotle into
54:17Lat- back into Latin, which gave
54:19Europeans access to Aristotle again for
54:21the first time in almost a thousand
54:23years, which is mind-blowing.
54:25And sure enough, quietly, Aristotle
54:28started to go viral within
54:30European universities and among European
54:32scholars. It was just It was
54:34mind-blowing stuff to them. Keep in
54:35mind, too, that it wasn't just the
54:37psychology and the happiness and the
54:39virtue stuff. Aristotle like
54:41literally invented the scientific
54:42method. He like basically all of what is
54:45modern science
54:47started with Aristotle as well. So, you
54:48start to see the the scientific method
54:51begin to show up in around this time.
54:54People are thinking about empirical
54:55observation,
54:57experimentation,
54:58um
55:00documenting
55:02what they see, trying to measure,
55:04understand things. I mean, I I I don't
55:06think it's any coincidence that Galileo
55:08and Copernicus show up within a
55:10generation or two after Aristotle was
55:12translated back into the Latin.
55:14Of course, predictably, the church has
55:16this horrible reaction. They try to ban
55:18it. They say it's heresy. But, there's a
55:21young student at the University of Paris
55:24at the time by the name of uh Thomas
55:26Aquinas,
55:27and
55:29Thomas has like a very unique and
55:31interesting talent, which is he became
55:34famous very, very early in his life. He
55:36was He was a prodigy. I think he would
55:38ended up going to university when he was
55:40like 15 or something. And he studied
55:42theology,
55:44became very successful very quickly, and
55:46he became famous for being very good at
55:48taking people who
55:51were on two opposite ends of an argument
55:53and finding a way to synthesize them.
55:55Finding like the common threads and
55:56finding a way to like make things make
55:58sense for everybody.
56:01So,
56:02he studies Aristotle.
56:04His mind is blown.
56:06But, the rumblings going on around is is
56:09that the church is like not okay with
56:10this. But, in his mind he's like, "This
56:12stuff is so
56:15powerful. It's so world-changing.
56:17There's got to be a way to make this
56:19synthesize with Christian thought and
56:21theology."
56:23And so, that became his life's work. And
56:24eventually, he published uh
56:26Summa Theologica, which was his magnum
56:28opus, which is was essentially that. It
56:31was bringing Aristotelian philosophy
56:34into the Christian
56:37umbrella
56:38uh in a way that people could understand
56:40and that was acceptable to the church.
56:42Brought it essentially brought Europe
56:45out of its its medieval period
56:47intellectually into kind of what would
56:49eventually become the Renaissance and
56:51the scientific revolution and
56:52everything. So, I can't overstate how
56:55important it is to bring back the idea
56:57that this is a skill issue. This is not
56:59a character issue. This is not a
57:01theological issue. It's a skill issue.
57:04Procrastination is a skill issue. And
57:07and it it's interesting there's there's
57:09this concept in psychology
57:11uh called self-efficacy, which is
57:14basically a belief
57:16that you can get better at something.
57:19And it's fascinating because
57:20self-efficacy
57:22strongly correlates with success in
57:23almost anything you do.
57:25Essentially, the more you believe you
57:27can get better at something, the more
57:29likely you are to get better at that
57:30thing. And I don't know, I just like
57:33everything I know about psychology, I I
57:35I don't think it can be overstated the
57:36importance and the impact of bringing
57:39self-efficacy back
57:42to the public. That belief of like we
57:44can be better.
57:46We can do things in this life that are
57:48better, right? Like
57:50I I really do think kind of old school
57:54Catholic theology is is like
57:57it's fatalism. It's like
58:00God decides
58:01there's this kind of
58:04cosmological war going on between heaven
58:06and hell.
58:07We're all caught in the middle.
58:09All we can do is just ask for
58:11forgiveness, right? Like there's nothing
58:13We're all going to We're all sinners.
58:14We're all We're all doomed, but like if
58:17we pray enough and ask for enough
58:19forgiveness and like things are going to
58:20turn out all right in the next life, not
58:22in this life, cuz this life is going to
58:24be
58:25[laughter]
58:25It is It's going to be
58:27predetermined. Yeah. So, I think just
58:30reintroducing self-efficacy back into
58:33the population is just like I I I can't
58:37I can't overstate how impactful that
58:40probably was. And then sure enough, like
58:44a century or two later, you get the
58:45Reformation. You know, when Luther
58:47hammered the 95 Theses to the to the
58:49door,
58:51he was essentially saying that like we
58:52have control over the outcome.
58:56We can decide we can improve our
58:58relationship with God. We can improve
59:00our lot in this life. We don't have to
59:03depend on the clergy. We don't have to
59:05depend on uh
59:07on the church. There There shouldn't be
59:09an intermediary between us, right? And
59:11sure enough, as Protestantism arises,
59:13this is what they become known for,
59:15right? It's the old Protestant work
59:17ethic. Like because the idea is is that
59:20if our salvation is up to us in this
59:22life
59:23and we have control over it,
59:25then whoever works the hardest is the
59:27most likely to be saved, right? Like God
59:31God gives fortune to people who work
59:33hard and deserve it. And so you see you
59:35see these these kind of philosophies
59:37emerge like Calvinism where it's
59:40there's a huge amount of moral value
59:41attached to industriousness that if you
59:44are
59:45diligent and hardworking and
59:48you know do all the right things in this
59:50world you will be rewarded in this world
59:52and in the next world by God and you
59:55deserve it. So
59:57if you have nice things awesome you
59:59worked for it you deserve it. So on the
1:00:00one hand we've brought self-efficacy
1:00:02back into the equation we've brought
1:00:05you know procrastination as a skill
1:00:07problem back into the equation that's
1:00:08good but on the other hand we still have
1:00:11the shame, right? Because now it's like
1:00:12if you work your ass off and things
1:00:15aren't going well for you well God still
1:00:16is displeased with you. God God does not
1:00:19look out on you with with favor or
1:00:21fortune you you must be doing something
1:00:23wrong. There's still a there's still a
1:00:25moral attachment to material success to
1:00:28your ability to do what you say you're
1:00:30going to do or or accomplish things in
1:00:32the real world. So
1:00:34and in fact because there is so much
1:00:36moral and theological weight placed on I
1:00:39guess worldly outcomes these early
1:00:42Protestants you get this kind of insane
1:00:44perfectionism and I think the group that
1:00:46really illustrates this is like the
1:00:47Puritans who came to America. They were
1:00:49hardworking they were diligent they
1:00:51believed that you know if you did the
1:00:53right things and if you worked really
1:00:54hard you would get what you deserve and
1:00:56God would smile on you with good fortune
1:00:58but holy crap they like judged the
1:01:01out of each other. Like there was an
1:01:03insane amount of perfectionism
1:01:05self-induced onto those communities,
1:01:08right? And it it and it makes sense
1:01:11because it's like if you're if your
1:01:13worldly status
1:01:15is now being attached to your
1:01:18moral superiority or inferiority it just
1:01:21adds that much extra pressure to
1:01:23everything you do. And so, I think this
1:01:26is actually appropriate because I think
1:01:28as we'll talk about later, like a huge
1:01:31component of procrastination is
1:01:33perfectionism. Is this feeling that
1:01:35you're not allowed to fail?
1:01:37That
1:01:38you
1:01:40if things don't work out the way you
1:01:41want them to, then that is some sort of
1:01:44moral reflection on you as a terrible
1:01:47person. And so, I'm curious like I know
1:01:50you are a
1:01:51recovering perfectionist.
1:01:53Bonafide, yes.
1:01:54I'm curious how this is like come up in
1:01:56your own life
1:01:57[clears throat]
1:01:57and what the research says around this.
1:01:59Yeah. Yeah,
1:02:01definitely perfectionism,
1:02:03um, it feeds into procrastination. What
1:02:05they find in the research and I can
1:02:07vouch for that very much so in my life.
1:02:08Again, the research shows that, um,
1:02:11perfectionism
1:02:12it's just it's another form of shame,
1:02:15basically, that causes you to avoid the
1:02:17things you need to do. It's an avoidance
1:02:19mechanism.
1:02:20Yeah.
1:02:20Of sorts.
1:02:21It creates a lot of anxiety around
1:02:24certain tasks, so you end up avoiding
1:02:26them that way.
1:02:27You're so afraid of failing that you
1:02:29just don't even want to approach the
1:02:30task to begin with, or you come up with
1:02:33all sorts of mental gymnastics ways to
1:02:35to avoid those. Um, so I need to Wait, I
1:02:38need to have more information before I
1:02:40do this. I need to be better at this.
1:02:42So, we're into the skills set now.
1:02:44Yeah.
1:02:44I need to be better at this. I need to
1:02:45have the skills in order to do this and
1:02:47for that I need to step back and develop
1:02:49these skills.
1:02:49That that's an evil loop that I've
1:02:52gotten caught up in before. I'm like,
1:02:53"Oh, I need to be better at this before
1:02:55I go do the thing."
1:02:56Right.
1:02:57And so, [snorts] then I spend all my
1:02:58time trying to be better instead of
1:02:59doing like actually like doing the thing
1:03:01is what will make you better at it.
1:03:03Right.
1:03:03But instead of actually just doing the
1:03:05thing, I try to do all this other stuff.
1:03:07To prepare for everything.
1:03:08Exactly.
1:03:09Do your research. Something like
1:03:10[laughter] that. This goes right up into
1:03:12today. This this happens in all sorts of
1:03:15productivity systems.
1:03:17People, you know, like, "Oh, you need to
1:03:18just have the right system in place or
1:03:20have the right information in place and
1:03:21you'll you'll get there. And that can
1:03:23very much feed into the very common
1:03:25problem of perfectionism.
1:03:27So, what I'm hearing
1:03:29so far, it it sounds like the story so
1:03:31far is that
1:03:33if I was to really simplify this, is
1:03:35that we avoid things that are
1:03:37unpleasant.
1:03:38Mhm.
1:03:39No duh. Often the mechanisms by which we
1:03:42judge ourselves or the expectations we
1:03:44place on ourselves around that avoidance
1:03:48only makes us feel worse and therefore
1:03:50avoid even more.
1:03:51Yes.
1:03:51Right? And so, shame is one component of
1:03:53that, like, that's one form of it. It's
1:03:55like the the more
1:03:56ashamed I feel of my inability to do the
1:03:58things that I set out to do,
1:04:00um
1:04:02the worse I feel about doing them,
1:04:04therefore the more I avoid them, and you
1:04:06get in this downward spiral. Similarly
1:04:07with perfectionism,
1:04:09the unrealistic expectations that you
1:04:12set on yourself are make the task so
1:04:16intimidating and unpleasant that you
1:04:18find ways to avoid it,
1:04:20which then makes you even feel even
1:04:22worse and expect even more of yourself,
1:04:23and then you get end up in another kind
1:04:25of spiral.
1:04:26Mhm.
1:04:32Let's transition into the Freud. Yeah, I
1:04:33actually have a cool little tidbit
1:04:36to to to like swing into this section.
1:04:38it off. Okay.
1:04:39Yeah, um it's actually really
1:04:41fascinating. So, Freud Freud went to
1:04:43university in Vienna in the uh mid-19th
1:04:45century.
1:04:46Yeah.
1:04:46And at the time, like, psychology didn't
1:04:49really exist. It wasn't really a thing.
1:04:52So, Freud had a professor. His name was
1:04:53Franz Brentano.
1:04:56And Professor Brentano, his
1:04:59kind of obsession and the thing that he
1:05:01would eventually become most known for,
1:05:03uh
1:05:04he was really into Aristotle. And he
1:05:07loved the
1:05:09kind of subjective, what we would call
1:05:11today the psychological side of
1:05:13Aristotle, but he also loved the
1:05:14scientific side as well. And at the
1:05:17time, most mostly Aristotle's scientific
1:05:20stuff was studied and it was like the
1:05:21virtue stuff was I guess less prominent.
1:05:24But Brentano had had a theory, which is
1:05:27he believed that you could take
1:05:28Aristotle's scientific method and you
1:05:31could potentially apply it to human
1:05:33happiness.
1:05:33Mhm.
1:05:34And he called it an an uh an empiricism
1:05:37of the psychology.
1:05:40And he taught the he taught this idea in
1:05:42his courses, and Freud was one of his
1:05:44students.
1:05:44Oh, I did not know that.
1:05:45So.
1:05:46Interesting. And this was So this would
1:05:47have been late 1800s.
1:05:49So this was 1860s, 1870s.
1:05:52Yeah.
1:05:52Interesting. I did not know that.
1:05:53Yeah.
1:05:53Yeah. Freud um
1:05:56is a fascinating [laughter]
1:05:56To say the least.
1:05:59And yeah, whenever you bring him up, uh
1:06:02there's going to be
1:06:03a lot of
1:06:04A lot of dicks.
1:06:04A lot of dicks come out, right?
1:06:06of a lot of dicks and mothers. That's
1:06:08right. [laughter]
1:06:08That's right.
1:06:10To to say he was controversial is an
1:06:12understatement. Um he got a lot of
1:06:14things right. He got a lot of things
1:06:16wrong, some
1:06:17fascinatingly wrong, uh and just uh
1:06:20spectacularly wrong. But um
1:06:23the mark he left on Western thought and
1:06:27on psychology is undeniable. You can't
1:06:30You can't deny that. So we would be
1:06:32remiss if we did not bring up Freud in
1:06:34all of this, yeah.
1:06:36There's a few ideas that Freud
1:06:38introduced into the larger kind of
1:06:41intellectual culture at the time that we
1:06:42need to be aware of. For to that
1:06:44pertinent to procrastination, okay?
1:06:45Okay.
1:06:46So first we want to talk about the
1:06:48pleasure principle versus the reality
1:06:50principle, right? Okay?
1:06:51So Freud,
1:06:54uh he thought that we are basically just
1:06:57driven by these two principles. One he
1:06:59called the pleasure principle, which is
1:07:01uh
1:07:02we seek we seek out pleasure and we want
1:07:04to avoid pain. Um this is from birth,
1:07:07this is just part of our nature.
1:07:08Anything that's pleasurable, we
1:07:10gravitate towards it. Anything painful,
1:07:12we avoid it. Very basic, okay? Then he
1:07:14said, as we mature, though, um, we
1:07:16mature into what he calls the reality
1:07:17principle, where we realize that
1:07:20um, just indulging in whatever pleasure
1:07:22comes our way is can be can be uh,
1:07:25detrimental to us, especially in the
1:07:26long run. So, we start to realize this
1:07:28as we mature. And actually, one of the
1:07:29marks of maturity that he saw or that he
1:07:32he outlined was that we live more by the
1:07:35reality principle, right?
1:07:36Yeah.
1:07:36So, again, it goes back to this, you
1:07:38know, our evolution, like I mentioned
1:07:40previously, was such that we will uh,
1:07:43prioritize pleasure in the immediate uh,
1:07:46term over long-term uh, benefits that
1:07:49that if we delay gratification, right?
1:07:52So, that's the first one.
1:07:53Procrastination then can kind of be seen
1:07:55as giving into the pleasure principle
1:07:57over the reality principle, and this can
1:08:00happen chronically or it can happen just
1:08:02in in the moment like that, okay? So,
1:08:04that's the first first idea we need to
1:08:05think of we need to
1:08:07be aware of when it comes to Freud. Uh,
1:08:09and then he also has, if you go back to
1:08:11your psych 101, he has the the model of
1:08:12the psyche, too, the three-part. Again,
1:08:14the three parts, very platonic of him,
1:08:17right? You have the id, ego, and
1:08:19superego, okay? You want to go through
1:08:20each one of those?
1:08:21Sure.
1:08:21For everybody, okay. So, we have the id,
1:08:24right? And the id is like this that's
1:08:26Some people call it the lizard brain, I
1:08:27guess. That's probably an
1:08:27oversimplification, but it's basically
1:08:30your drives for
1:08:32uh, a lot of it is for the pleasures
1:08:33that we have, eating, sex, you know,
1:08:36whatever uh,
1:08:37joyful experience you might want to uh,
1:08:39indulge in, hedonism, basically.
1:08:42Yeah.
1:08:42You have the superego then, though, too,
1:08:44which is kind of the opposite of the id,
1:08:45which is all these moral standards that
1:08:48we obtain through socialization in our
1:08:51childhoods, through the people around
1:08:53us, our teachers, our parents, our
1:08:54siblings.
1:08:55Um, we start to form as we as we mature,
1:08:58we start to form this idea of what it
1:09:01means to be a good person, to do right,
1:09:04to be morally superior to others, or
1:09:06just to act morally out in the world.
1:09:09That's the superego.
1:09:11And then Freud had this other idea of
1:09:12the ego, which is kind of the mediator
1:09:14between the two. Like you need to
1:09:16satisfy some of your base urges, right?
1:09:18You need to eat and drink and have sex
1:09:20and all of those things in order for the
1:09:22species to survive and thrive and and
1:09:24propagate. Uh but we also need to temper
1:09:27that um
1:09:28in some way uh with our
1:09:31moral
1:09:32understanding of the world. Yeah. And
1:09:34that's the ego comes in and says, "Okay,
1:09:35I have a plan how we're going to get
1:09:37satisfied both of these." And the whole
1:09:40Freud said when these things were in
1:09:41balance and the ego was doing its job,
1:09:43then we had mental health. And whenever
1:09:44it's out of balance, we're screwed.
1:09:46Right?
1:09:46It feels very similar to the chariot.
1:09:49Very, very much so.
1:09:50driver with the two horses.
1:09:51Like you said, Plato, he'll come up all
1:09:53throughout Western thought.
1:09:55He's everywhere.
1:09:55And he's everywhere.
1:09:57Yeah.
1:09:57Procrastination then, kind of through a
1:09:59Freudian lens,
1:10:01is giving in to, like I said, giving in
1:10:03to the id. Or when the id can overpower
1:10:05the superego or the ego, I guess.
1:10:08Uh and the the superego is kind of left
1:10:10out uh to dry.
1:10:12That is uh you know, Freud never uh
1:10:15specifically addressed procrastination,
1:10:17but a lot of his uh people after him
1:10:19did. Uh a lot of his students did, the
1:10:20psychoanalysts who who were the the
1:10:23Freudian psychologists. They addressed
1:10:24procrastination through this lens.
1:10:26Another thing uh he brought up too and
1:10:30brought to our awareness, I think, more
1:10:32was the defense mechanisms.
1:10:33Yeah.
1:10:33Okay.
1:10:34Yeah, I was going to say cuz it doesn't
1:10:35the ego isn't part of the id when the
1:10:38ego is mediating between these two
1:10:39things, right? That the
1:10:41the the social obligations and and the
1:10:43cult- cultural values and versus the
1:10:46animalistic urges.
1:10:47[clears throat]
1:10:48Doesn't the ego kind of cuz like when
1:10:50people talk about an ego,
1:10:52we usually think of
1:10:54some sort of like
1:10:55self-identity or self-image.
1:10:57Yes.
1:10:58Right? So, isn't is the mechanism for
1:11:00mediating those two things? Like it is
1:11:01it kind of this mental construction that
1:11:03happens? Like how how does that all map
1:11:05out?
1:11:05You mean in terms of like how the ego
1:11:08mediates that relationship or or
1:11:10Well, I I am I'm imagining that the the
1:11:13mediation between those two things that
1:11:14happens through the construction of this
1:11:17self image, right? It's like this is the
1:11:19type of person I am. This is what I how
1:11:21I act in these situations. And then
1:11:25once we've constructed that identity, we
1:11:27need to protect it.
1:11:28Right. Yeah, so the ego does. It very
1:11:30much forms our basis of self identity,
1:11:32what you're
1:11:32Okay.
1:11:33saying. And how we navigate those that
1:11:35pull between the two horses, right? The
1:11:37ego is sitting in between in Freud's
1:11:39view. The ego sits in between those the
1:11:42poles to to be morally superior and good
1:11:45and pure versus, you know, a base
1:11:48creature of nature, right? So, yes, the
1:11:51the ego very much navigates and say this
1:11:53is how I act in these certain
1:11:54situations. These are here are here are
1:11:56my morals. Here is how I get what I need
1:11:59out of life and want to.
1:12:00Yeah.
1:12:00So, absolutely. Yeah.
1:12:02I want to make a quick point here, quick
1:12:04interjection cuz I always find this
1:12:06super interesting. Like in conventional
1:12:09wisdom or or typical parlance, like if
1:12:10you're just hanging out with a bunch of
1:12:11random people and somebody's being an
1:12:13Yeah.
1:12:13you're like, man, that guy's got too
1:12:14much of an ego.
1:12:15right?
1:12:15Yeah, he's got to get rid of his ego,
1:12:17man. Or if you go to like a meditation
1:12:18group or you know, go to some woo-woo,
1:12:21you know, incense burning temple here in
1:12:24Malibu. Like they'll tell you like, oh,
1:12:26we're here to dissolve our ego, get rid
1:12:28of our ego.
1:12:29It's interesting if you actually go back
1:12:31to Freud,
1:12:32you don't want to get rid of your ego.
1:12:34That's not what you want to get rid of.
1:12:35Yeah, it's like it's like
1:12:35[laughter]
1:12:35it's like your ego's actually really
1:12:37important.
1:12:37It's pragmatic, yeah.
1:12:38Yeah, it's like actually, you just want
1:12:40to have a good ego.
1:12:42Right.
1:12:42Like you want to have a functional ego
1:12:44Right.
1:12:44instead of a dysfunctional ego cuz a
1:12:46dysfunctional ego is probably giving in
1:12:48way too much to either the
1:12:50social pressures
1:12:51or the animalistic urges.
1:12:53Whereas a functional ego is able to
1:12:54balance everything effectively and and
1:12:57manage itself.
1:12:57Right. Right. And it can manage shame,
1:12:59for example, too. So, yes, you can There
1:13:02There's good ego to have. Ego is not a
1:13:04bad word in the
1:13:05Freudian, yeah.
1:13:06parlance, right. Yeah. Okay.
1:13:08Yeah.
1:13:08But it does What What happens is when
1:13:10the ego comes under threat,
1:13:12Yes.
1:13:12uh that can be a problem. So, this is
1:13:14where the defense mechanisms
1:13:16defense mechanisms come in.
1:13:18Okay.
1:13:18Right. So,
1:13:20if you um it if there is any sort of uh
1:13:24threat to the ego, threat to your
1:13:25self-identity in in these or threat to
1:13:27your your your view of yourself, I'm a
1:13:30good person. I This is how I act in
1:13:31these situations, then these defense
1:13:33mechanisms can kick in and protect your
1:13:37ego, right? And that's where some
1:13:39problems can come. Just As they relate
1:13:41to procrastination, a couple of common
1:13:43ones are, which we've already mentioned,
1:13:45uh rationalization.
1:13:47Right.
1:13:47We rationalize. Well,
1:13:49uh one of them is I work best under
1:13:50pressure, which I want to really talk
1:13:52about that one.
1:13:53Okay.
1:13:53Um or I need the adrenaline of a looming
1:13:56deadline or something like that, right?
1:13:57That that um we rationalize our way out
1:14:01of actually taking action towards our
1:14:04goals.
1:14:04Yeah.
1:14:04Okay. Another one is
1:14:05intellectualization. Um
1:14:08one I'm very fond of, which is We've
1:14:10already mentioned this one, too. You
1:14:11research. I need to research this more.
1:14:13I need to just I need more information.
1:14:15AKA this entire podcast.
1:14:17[laughter]
1:14:17Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I need to All
1:14:20right. I need to listen to more podcasts
1:14:21on this.
1:14:22to listen I need to listen to a 5-hour
1:14:23podcast before I can do this.
1:14:25Right. [laughter]
1:14:26So, yes, that one's very much in our our
1:14:28wheelhouse, where you you think you just
1:14:31need
1:14:32More information.
1:14:32information, or you need to stop and
1:14:36understand it more in some way, right?
1:14:38So, that's a very common
1:14:39That That's um
1:14:41I mean, as you know, like one of one of
1:14:42my favorite things to say is is that uh
1:14:44learning more is a smart person's
1:14:46favorite way to procrastinate.
1:14:47100% and that I mean I think a lot of
1:14:49people listening to this will identify.
1:14:51I do and I mean for sure so they'll
1:14:53relate to that. Uh another really common
1:14:55one too is just denial which we've
1:14:57already mentioned this one too. It's
1:14:58like ah it's not that important. I'm
1:15:00just going to put it off. It's fine.
1:15:01Yeah, what's what's one more day? It's
1:15:03not a big deal.
1:15:03What's what's one workout? What's you
1:15:05know, that sort of thing. So those are
1:15:08some common ones. What those are
1:15:09designed to do in the Freudian school of
1:15:11thought is to protect this ego, the
1:15:13self-identity that we've constructed
1:15:15over time.
1:15:16Yeah.
1:15:16So um the ego sitting in the middle
1:15:18trying to balance all these pulls that
1:15:20we have and then all of a sudden
1:15:21something comes along to threaten that
1:15:23and we need to protect that. That's what
1:15:25the idea of the um uh of defense
1:15:28mechanisms are and that's I mean, you
1:15:30know, for all Freud's flaws, I think
1:15:32defense mechanism are definitely one of
1:15:34those things that he brought to um the
1:15:36cultural conscience that
1:15:38we absolutely needed.
1:15:40And the the funny thing about Freud to
1:15:41me is is that
1:15:44it's he got the big stuff right.
1:15:45Yeah, he got the details horribly wrong.
1:15:47the details were horrible and and and
1:15:49not only horribly wrong but like
1:15:50hilariously wrong. So and it and it's
1:15:52because they're hilariously wrong,
1:15:54that's what everybody focuses on and
1:15:56remembers but like
1:15:57the ego is just it is such like
1:15:59everything you just described is so
1:16:01profound
1:16:03and tracks, right?
1:16:04And it it is like it is such an
1:16:06incredible insight into human nature and
1:16:08and not only like you know, talking
1:16:10about these defense mechanisms and
1:16:11protecting the ego, like not only do we
1:16:13protect the ego, we protect our ego as
1:16:15if it is our physical body.
1:16:17Yes, oh yeah, you get you get you like
1:16:19revolt back into yourself. You you
1:16:21You will have crunching You will have
1:16:23physical physiological responses to an
1:16:25ego threat the same way you would have
1:16:27responses to a physical threat. You will
1:16:29have uh emotional responses to an ego
1:16:32threat
1:16:33that track exactly as the emotional
1:16:36responses you would have to a physical
1:16:37threat. It is so incredible, like such
1:16:40an incredible realization. Yeah, because
1:16:43we all need we all need a sense of a
1:16:46self-identity to navigate the world
1:16:47from. And and so it is very threatening.
1:16:50Uh
1:16:51you have this kind of humans have this
1:16:53need um to explain things and the and
1:16:56make sense of the world. And one way we
1:16:57do that is through a self-identity. And
1:16:59when that gets threatened, that's very
1:17:00very scary, like you said. So I I do
1:17:02think that that's one of Freud's biggest
1:17:04contributions, definitely just in
1:17:06psychology in general, but around
1:17:08procrastination especially is um when we
1:17:10get defensive. And like you said, you
1:17:12you'll you'll feel that in your body.
1:17:14You'll feel your yourself recoil
1:17:17um whenever your ego is is threatened in
1:17:20any way. So yeah.
1:17:20So I I think this raises an interesting
1:17:23point of
1:17:25self-definition as
1:17:27a component of procrastination. And I've
1:17:29noticed this
1:17:31uh
1:17:32I mean, I've noticed this in my own life
1:17:33quite a bit where it's like it as soon
1:17:36as I decide that I am something,
1:17:39suddenly the emotional
1:17:41valence around that thing becomes way
1:17:43more intense, right? At the surface,
1:17:44yeah. So like
1:17:46before I wrote Subtle Art, I didn't
1:17:48really see myself as an author.
1:17:51So I just wrote a book. It was just kind
1:17:53of like, oh, this is just another thing
1:17:54I'm going to do. This is like one of
1:17:55like five things I'm going to do over
1:17:58the next few years. Uh but then all of a
1:18:00sudden it takes off and I become
1:18:03socially known as an author,
1:18:05which then affects my self-perception of
1:18:07myself of like, oh, I guess I'm an
1:18:09author now. And as soon as I am {quote}
1:18:11{unquote} an author,
1:18:13now writing is a completely different
1:18:15experience for me.
1:18:16Because now this is the thing that I'm
1:18:17supposed to be good at. This is the
1:18:19thing that I'm most known for. This is
1:18:21the thing that I'm most respected for.
1:18:24I've been most rewarded for.
1:18:25And so that is a much more intimidating
1:18:28experience.
1:18:29And it actually took me a number of
1:18:30years to like revise that
1:18:32self-definition and remember like
1:18:35yeah, dude, you weren't always an
1:18:36author. Like you you you just kind of
1:18:38like decided one day that like oh, I
1:18:40guess I'm an author now. And then like
1:18:42that added a mountain of stress
1:18:44to my life. And like I can just as
1:18:46easily decide I'm not an author. It's
1:18:48just like one of many things I do. And
1:18:50suddenly as soon as I that that
1:18:52self-definition switched,
1:18:54a lot of that stress went away.
1:18:56James Clear talks about this a little
1:18:58bit in in Atomic Habits about how like
1:19:00the ultimately the only thing that makes
1:19:02a habit stick over a long like over the
1:19:04long term is when it's adopted as an
1:19:06identity.
1:19:08You know, and and it's that adoption as
1:19:10an identity that is that's the ego,
1:19:12right? It's like when you go from a
1:19:15person who
1:19:17uh
1:19:18is happens to be running three times a
1:19:21week to a runner.
1:19:23Or [clears throat] you go from a person
1:19:24who is taking a painting class to a
1:19:26painter, right? It's like once you
1:19:29define yourself as I'm a painter,
1:19:32then suddenly you don't need willpower
1:19:34discipline or to overcome
1:19:35procrastination to paint cuz that's just
1:19:37the thing you do, right? So,
1:19:39um
1:19:40Anyway, I love this topic.
1:19:42Well, but there there's you're you're
1:19:43saying there there's stakes attached to
1:19:44that as well, too. There's stakes when
1:19:46you attach your identity to that. And
1:19:48so, would you say from your transition
1:19:50to being well, I'm just somebody who's
1:19:51going to write a book to I'm an author.
1:19:53You haven't written a book in a few
1:19:54years, Mark. Have you been
1:19:55procrastinating on this because it
1:19:57threatens your identity now? Or
1:19:59I think well, it's funny cuz it's it's I
1:20:02let go of
1:20:04Okay.
1:20:05I let go cuz it's like I let go of that
1:20:07identity. It did cause me a lot an
1:20:09immense amount of stress.
1:20:11And this isn't to say I I don't like the
1:20:13books that I wrote. It's just that like
1:20:15I I wouldn't have necessarily written
1:20:17them
1:20:18when I did or the way I did
1:20:22if I had had a different self-identity
1:20:24at the time. And by freeing myself of
1:20:27that identity,
1:20:29part of freeing myself is realizing that
1:20:31like I don't have to write a book. Like,
1:20:33I'm not just an author. So,
1:20:36I can write a book if I want, and I I'm
1:20:38sure I will write a book again soon, but
1:20:41I don't have to. It's not the thing I
1:20:43do, right? It's like if you and I
1:20:45decided like, "We're podcasters now."
1:20:47Yeah.
1:20:48Right?
1:20:48Right.
1:20:49Like, this is who we are and what we do.
1:20:51I got caught up in that for a little
1:20:52while, yeah.
1:20:52Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure. It's It's It's
1:20:55It's tough. Like, it's
1:20:57it draws you in. And I I guess this is
1:20:59kind of coming back to like the the ego
1:21:01intermediating between, you know, the
1:21:03social pressures and the moral values
1:21:05and then also kind of like the
1:21:06animalistic instincts. Like,
1:21:08we have a fundamental drive for social
1:21:10acceptance and social approval, right?
1:21:11And so, it it's like our our ego's part
1:21:15of our ego's role is to like take that
1:21:17social acceptance and be like, "Yeah,
1:21:19I'll be that. This is what rewards me
1:21:21socially. This is what gets me respect
1:21:23from the tribe. I'm going to be that
1:21:25person, right?" And so, it it is a
1:21:27natural reaction. But,
1:21:30when you decide that that's who you are,
1:21:33it it adds a whole 'nother layer of
1:21:37I guess of of stakes, you know? Like,
1:21:40I'll say this.
1:21:42I think adopting the coming back to the
1:21:43James Clear thing of like adopting a
1:21:45habit as an identity,
1:21:47he is correct that like, if the goal is
1:21:50to just do the thing,
1:21:52then adopting it as an identity
1:21:55essentially solves that problem.
1:21:56Yes. Cuz it's like if that's who you
1:21:58are, that's just what you're going to
1:21:59do, and it's going to feel like it's
1:22:01going to feel weird to not do it.
1:22:02The The tradeoff of that that I think is
1:22:05not mentioned in that book is that when
1:22:07you adopt a habit as an identity,
1:22:10you are now adding a whole layer of
1:22:13social pressure, judgment, validation
1:22:17to that, right? So, it's like if we if
1:22:18we decide now like we are podcasters,
1:22:20like now we That's That's the yardstick
1:22:22we're going to start measuring ourselves
1:22:24with, right? If you decide I am a
1:22:26runner,
1:22:27well, yeah, now it's not going to be
1:22:28hard to get up and run in the morning.
1:22:29Now you're going to be judging yourself
1:22:31by how your run went every morning.
1:22:32Ah.
1:22:33So, it's like you you
1:22:34[laughter]
1:22:35you trade one
1:22:36God, it never [clears throat] ends.
1:22:36It never ends. You trade one problem for
1:22:38another essentially. Yeah.
1:22:40Okay.
1:22:40Well, yeah, okay. Yes, I
1:22:43I do think again, Freud and his uh uh
1:22:47conceptualization of the psyche, the
1:22:49three parts, and the defense mechanisms,
1:22:51and all that. That's that's useful in
1:22:53terms of yeah, tying yourself identity
1:22:56to what you do, how you behave in the
1:22:58world. Obviously,
1:23:00um that is that that's now in the
1:23:03zeitgeist and now very much a part of
1:23:04our culture, too. I think the other
1:23:06thing though, too, uh is Freud was one
1:23:10of the first people to really emphasize
1:23:13childhood.
1:23:13Yeah.
1:23:14Well, how our childhoods affect the way
1:23:16we develop into adulthood. It's funny,
1:23:18when I was in college and I was I was
1:23:19taking psychology, I think I was either
1:23:21a freshman or sophomore at the time. So,
1:23:22I was taking some pretty lower-level
1:23:24psychology classes and was talking with
1:23:26um somebody in my dorm who wasn't a
1:23:29psychology major and they're like, "Oh,
1:23:30you're psychology major major, tell me
1:23:31about that." And I was like, "Oh, we're
1:23:32going over Freud right now, you know."
1:23:34And I tell them all this. And I I get to
1:23:35the part about childhood. And I'm like,
1:23:37"Oh, yeah, and Freud, you know, he's the
1:23:38one who kind of came up with this idea
1:23:39of that childhood, you know, affecting
1:23:42us as we get older." And she goes,
1:23:44"Well, doesn't everybody know that?" And
1:23:45[laughter] I didn't have a good answer
1:23:46at the time. I was like, "Well, yeah,
1:23:48it's really [snorts] obvious, isn't it?"
1:23:49And I didn't have a good answer at the
1:23:50time. But no, actually, before Freud,
1:23:53nobody thought that like it was just you
1:23:55were just a bad person, period.
1:23:57you you are what you are.
1:23:59You are what you are. There was nothing
1:24:00that from your childhood or the way you
1:24:02were raised that was necessarily uh like
1:24:05indicative of why you are the way you
1:24:07are at this point.
1:24:07Even the concept of parenting
1:24:09Yes.
1:24:10is like less than 100 years old.
1:24:12Yeah.
1:24:13Yeah, which [snorts] is mind-blowing.
1:24:14Yeah.
1:24:15[laughter]
1:24:15Well, I think yeah, probably a lot of
1:24:17that was parenting in well, it was
1:24:20probably more uh of a collective effort
1:24:22than it is now. So, yeah.
1:24:23It was a collective effort. Also, like
1:24:25half of your kids died before the age of
1:24:27seven, so.
1:24:28So, [laughter]
1:24:29it was just like, well, they're like,
1:24:30obviously obviously God had something to
1:24:32say about this.
1:24:33God God decided. Yeah, yeah.
1:24:34But but Freud did he introduce the the
1:24:36idea of
1:24:38parenting styles and how
1:24:40experiences we had in childhood, how
1:24:42they affect our development throughout
1:24:44our lives, all the way into adulthood,
1:24:45right?
1:24:46Right.
1:24:46Um a few of these now this was this came
1:24:48from some of his contemporaries. It
1:24:50wasn't directly from Freud, but they
1:24:52took these psychoanalyst psychoanalysis
1:24:55principles and they applied them to uh
1:24:57parenting and procrastination.
1:24:59Mhm.
1:25:00Um there are kind of these three big
1:25:02ideas that I came across anyway. One of
1:25:04them being when your parents kind of
1:25:07equate love with achievement.
1:25:09Mhm.
1:25:09Um so, this gets into the perfectionism
1:25:11thing. Definitely, this can kind of
1:25:14encourage someone to develop a more
1:25:16perfectionist personality.
1:25:18Well, this this ties into the confusion
1:25:21stuff.
1:25:21100%. Um but parents who who set these
1:25:24unrealistically high expectations on
1:25:26their children, you'll often get um
1:25:28children who are kind of perfectionist
1:25:30and big time procrastinators at some
1:25:32point at least in their lives if they
1:25:33don't manage it well anyway. Um the the
1:25:36child feels fear around taking any sort
1:25:40of action around the failure. And
1:25:42procrastination then as an adult it'll
1:25:44manifest in a way as to just avoid that
1:25:47emotional pain. Through the Freudian
1:25:49lens, what you're doing when you're
1:25:50procrastinating if you had these types
1:25:52of parents is that you're avoiding those
1:25:53memories of of being chastised for not
1:25:57doing the right thing or for not for not
1:25:59doing a good enough job,
1:26:00Right.
1:26:01Another one is kind of internalizing
1:26:03parental anger. So, if you grew up
1:26:05around very reactive parents who
1:26:07got angry whenever you did something
1:26:08wrong, you know, you spilled the milk or
1:26:10whatever it was and they immediately got
1:26:12on you about that. That
1:26:14a child according to the Freudian school
1:26:17of thought, would internalize those uh
1:26:19that anger from those parents, and they
1:26:21would feel blasted
1:26:23directed towards themselves. So again,
1:26:26the procrastination is avoiding any
1:26:29uh situation in which you could fail.
1:26:32And so, uh you you you don't you've
1:26:35already internalized that anger, and you
1:26:36just want to avoid it altogether. Again,
1:26:38it goes back to it comes back to the
1:26:39avoidance a lot with these.
1:26:41Um and then, the last one I came across
1:26:44with parenting and where there's two
1:26:45different uh parenting styles. So you
1:26:47have permissive parents or authoritarian
1:26:49ones.
1:26:49Yeah.
1:26:50And on the permissive side, if if you
1:26:52grew up in a very kind of like
1:26:54rules-free environment, more or less, um
1:26:58you
1:26:59according to the Freudians again, they
1:27:01this produces that nervous
1:27:03underachiever, right? They they feel
1:27:06overwhelmed by self-imposed deadlines or
1:27:09work or whatever it is. They So they
1:27:11just they're like, "Well, that's just
1:27:12that's too many rules, too much
1:27:13structure. I'm just not I'm just going
1:27:15to avoid it altogether."
1:27:16Yeah.
1:27:16The flip side being authoritarian, where
1:27:19you you grew up in a very strict
1:27:21household with lots and lots of rules.
1:27:23And to the the psychoanalyst, they think
1:27:26that uh there's like a rebellion against
1:27:29that, right? Uh for some children.
1:27:31Yeah.
1:27:32So, um whether these are, you know,
1:27:34whether that's actually what's going on
1:27:36or not, that's obviously the topic of
1:27:37debate, and we'll
1:27:38go over some of this. But again, the
1:27:41idea that the way we were raised affects
1:27:44the way that we develop throughout our
1:27:45lives,
1:27:46Yeah.
1:27:47specifically around procrastination, it
1:27:49does have
1:27:50uh
1:27:51it could have an effect this way. Now,
1:27:53was it was is it because we're like
1:27:55avoiding those emotional memories, like
1:27:57deep emotional memories that we want to
1:27:58avoid? I don't know.
1:27:59It it's funny cuz the the parent thing
1:28:02I mean, there's definitely something to
1:28:03it. It's so hard to know where that line
1:28:07begins and ends, you know? How much of
1:28:08that is just
1:28:10personality, natural disposition, how
1:28:12much of that is like how mom and dad
1:28:13treated you? Like it's such a fuzzy
1:28:15area. Like it the the boundary between
1:28:18those two things is very fuzzy. It is
1:28:20funny I have never I had never heard
1:28:21that permissive parent thing
1:28:23in the what what did you say it was the
1:28:25timid underachiever?
1:28:26Uh yeah, nervous underachiever.
1:28:27Nervous underachiever.
1:28:30Dude, that that I feel called
1:28:32out.
1:28:32Oh really?
1:28:33My parents were [snorts] super
1:28:34permissive. Like grew up in no
1:28:35structure, no rules. Which you know, it
1:28:38was a a real double-edged sword. Like
1:28:40there's a lot of things that
1:28:42I think it forced my brother and I to
1:28:44develop a lot of traits.
1:28:46Self-reliance was a big one, right?
1:28:48Independence.
1:28:49Uh
1:28:50comfort with autonomy, comfort being
1:28:52alone.
1:28:53So there there are a lot of things that
1:28:54I developed at an early age that I'm
1:28:56like actually very grateful for, but it
1:28:58is funny I
1:28:59both my brother and I were spectacular
1:29:01underachievers. I you know, pretty much
1:29:03up until maybe my second year of
1:29:05college, I was very much an
1:29:07underachiever and
1:29:08it's funny I I
1:29:11I had a really good friend in high
1:29:12school
1:29:14who
1:29:16called me out on my once and it
1:29:18was like very uncomfortable. It was one
1:29:20of those moments where like somebody
1:29:21says something to you and it like
1:29:24because it hurt so bad, you know it must
1:29:26be true.
1:29:27[laughter]
1:29:28[gasps]
1:29:28But like I you know, I used to be a
1:29:30pretty arrogant teenager. You know, I
1:29:32was a smart kid who never did his
1:29:33homework.
1:29:34Yeah, okay. Yeah.
1:29:34It so it it
1:29:36I think I was like just talking
1:29:38once and I said something I was like
1:29:40I was like, you know, I if I really
1:29:43cared I you know, I could easily get an
1:29:44A in that class and then I think my
1:29:46friend was like, well why don't you do
1:29:48it? And I was like it's not worth my
1:29:49time and he was like he said, no I I I
1:29:51think you don't do it because I think
1:29:52you're afraid of trying and then not
1:29:54actually getting the the A.
1:29:56And he said you'd rather not try at all
1:29:57and I
1:29:59Kick in the stomach.
1:30:00Dude, it was like getting
1:30:01stabbed in the chest and I was like
1:30:03Whoa.
1:30:05[laughter]
1:30:05Yeah.
1:30:05I had no comeback for it, you know?
1:30:08But I think it there really was
1:30:09something to that. Like I very much
1:30:12there was something about the permissive
1:30:14environment that maybe as a defense
1:30:17mechanism had a very inflated perception
1:30:20of my my own
1:30:21ability and potential.
1:30:23And
1:30:25actually doing anything threatened that.
1:30:28Ah.
1:30:29Yeah, so if I actually did try in a
1:30:32class and didn't get the A, I'd have to
1:30:34reevaluate my ego. I'd have to
1:30:37reevaluate
1:30:39how I see myself and that was just too
1:30:40scary and too So it's just easier to
1:30:42smoke pot and not do your homework. Yes.
1:30:45Which is interesting like, you know, you
1:30:47mentioned the the pleasure principle
1:30:50segueing into the reality principle.
1:30:54I imagine
1:30:55I'm not aware of Freud talking about it
1:30:57in these terms, but I imagine like part
1:30:59of that process it it part of it looks
1:31:02like
1:31:03almost ego flexibility. Like developing
1:31:05an ego flexibility. Like when I think
1:31:07about my younger self and I think about
1:31:08young people in general or immature
1:31:10people in general, they have very rigid
1:31:12egos. They have very like I think what
1:31:14people mean when they say you have a big
1:31:16ego or you you need to get rid of your
1:31:18ego. What they mean is that your ego is
1:31:20rigid, which is that you have a
1:31:21self-perception that is not open to new
1:31:24information, right? Like if you
1:31:27if you fail at something or something
1:31:28doesn't go well, instead of reevaluating
1:31:31how you see yourself, uh you blame
1:31:34everybody else.
1:31:35Right, and double [clears throat] down
1:31:36on your
1:31:36And double down on how you on your your
1:31:38self-image. And so I think
1:31:41that that ego flexibility is actually
1:31:45what we should be going for. And I think
1:31:48that is also a skill that we naturally
1:31:51develop as we get older. Like I I I
1:31:53definitely find that
1:31:56I'm much better you know, at 40 I'm much
1:31:59better at kind of looking at myself and
1:32:01being like, oh,
1:32:03yeah, maybe I wasn't as good at that
1:32:05thing as I thought I was. Whereas like,
1:32:06you know, when I was 20, that felt
1:32:08cataclysmic that to have that thought,
1:32:11right? So,
1:32:12super interesting. Yeah. Yeah, super
1:32:14interesting.
1:32:15One thing too about the whole parenting
1:32:18thing and and Freud's view, I think
1:32:19sometimes they get a little bit
1:32:20pigeonholed um when they think about
1:32:22this because when you were telling your
1:32:24story about permissive parenting and how
1:32:26it affected you,
1:32:27I had a friend who had a very permissive
1:32:31She was a
1:32:33um the daughter of a single mother.
1:32:34Yeah.
1:32:34Her and her mother just let her do
1:32:36whatever she wanted and she resented her
1:32:38for it. She wanted this structure. She
1:32:40Yeah, and she became a very high
1:32:41achiever, actually. So, it was the other
1:32:43way. So, I just don't think like a lot
1:32:44of times with Freud, I think they they
1:32:46have these neat little like explanations
1:32:48for it. Yeah.
1:32:50So, there there's that. Again, though,
1:32:52the larger takeaway, I think is that he
1:32:54did
1:32:55find these kind of big categories of
1:32:57influences on our behavior that nobody
1:32:59had really thought about before. And and
1:33:01brought them to to the
1:33:02to the surface.
1:33:03the surface in the cultural conscience,
1:33:04for sure. Yeah.
1:33:05So, just a quick reminder before we move
1:33:08on, if you're starting to get a little
1:33:09bit of information overload, uh we do
1:33:12have a PDF guide for all of this and all
1:33:14the Solved episodes. You just go to
1:33:16solvedpodcast.com/procrastination
1:33:19to get a full episode guide with
1:33:21accompanying notes, takeaways,
1:33:23references, and citations. We break
1:33:25everything down, help summarize all the
1:33:27most important information, and offer
1:33:28next steps if you want to start
1:33:30implementing what you're hearing. And
1:33:33of course, it's free. So, just go to
1:33:35solvedpodcast.com/procrastination.
1:33:38The link is also in the description. All
1:33:40right. Anyway, so yeah, speaking of
1:33:43other frameworks, behaviorism. This is
1:33:46the big psychological breakthrough that
1:33:47comes right after Freud.
1:33:49Yeah, kind of during Freud, even, too.
1:33:50Oh, is it?
1:33:51A bit of a backlash, I would say. So,
1:33:521930, John B. Watson, kind of regarded
1:33:55as the father of behaviorism, although
1:33:57there were some people before him, but
1:33:58he comes out with a paper called
1:33:59psychology as the behaviorist views it,
1:34:02okay?
1:34:03And right from the get-go, like the
1:34:04opening line is psychology as the
1:34:06behavioral as the behaviorist views it
1:34:08is a purely objective experimental
1:34:10branch of natural science. It's kind of
1:34:12like a slap in the face to the Freudian
1:34:14psychology and psychoanalysis at the
1:34:15time. It really is kind of a backlash
1:34:17that's going on. They They Watson and
1:34:19the other behaviorists at the time, they
1:34:21see all of this like oh, you know, let's
1:34:23talk about
1:34:24your dreams.
1:34:25Yeah, your childhood, your internal
1:34:28states that you want to like really
1:34:29navel gaze at, right? They saw this as
1:34:32wishy-washy. It wasn't useful, it wasn't
1:34:35helpful.
1:34:36Also keep in mind at the time, too, of
1:34:38what was going on like Einstein is like
1:34:40kind of starting to like become a name
1:34:43that's known in physics and there's all
1:34:44these breakthroughs in the material
1:34:46sciences at this time, too.
1:34:48And the behaviorists wanted to take that
1:34:51kind of philosophy, which was kind of
1:34:54rigorous scientific method, and apply it
1:34:56to the psychology. Um very much in
1:34:58contrast to the uh the Freudian
1:35:01psychologists.
1:35:02Which is just sit and talk for hours.
1:35:03Sit on a couch, talk, let's get under
1:35:05all these unconscious motives that you
1:35:07have. The behaviorists were very much
1:35:08the opposite, actually like almost
1:35:10exactly the opposite. They said, "No, we
1:35:12should not be studying mental internal
1:35:14mental states at all. We should only be
1:35:16concerned with what's observable, and
1:35:18what's observable is behavior." So,
1:35:19that's why it's called behaviorism.
1:35:20Got you.
1:35:21Um Watson
1:35:24also went on to say in that in that same
1:35:26paper that the behaviorist recognizes no
1:35:28dividing line between man and brute.
1:35:31So [laughter]
1:35:31This is where it's because what was
1:35:33going on is with all of these studies
1:35:35with animals were were starting to be
1:35:38incorporated into the the body of
1:35:40literature that was going on. And the
1:35:42behaviorists saw all these parallels
1:35:44between even, you know, a rat or a mouse
1:35:47and a human being and and how they can
1:35:48be very similar in a lot of ways.
1:35:50I feel so objectified, Drew. Well, that
1:35:53was
1:35:54[laughter]
1:35:54That is exactly what the behaviorists
1:35:57tried to do there was to make this an
1:35:58objective
1:36:00rigorous science. They wanted They
1:36:01wanted to really get at the heart of
1:36:03things and they thought, "If we could
1:36:04only just study things like a physicist
1:36:07studies atoms and particles, then we
1:36:09could get to some underlying truth
1:36:11around behavior and psychology and human
1:36:12nature, even too."
1:36:14So, that kind of puts it in the
1:36:15historical context of what's going on.
1:36:18Um
1:36:18you know, there's
1:36:20Watson was very much influenced by
1:36:21Pavlov and the Pavlov's dogs, you know,
1:36:23you ring a bell, give the dog food after
1:36:25a little while, the dog hears the bell,
1:36:27he just starts salivating. That was kind
1:36:29of the the the forerunner to this strict
1:36:32behaviorism that that came in the early
1:36:3320th century.
1:36:35That kind of conditioning, the Pavlovian
1:36:37conditioning, was was called classical
1:36:38conditioning by the behaviorists. They
1:36:40saw that as you're pairing this um
1:36:44neutral stimulus, which in this case was
1:36:45the bell, to um an a a natural um
1:36:50uh stimulus, which was the food, and
1:36:52then you get this um
1:36:54on
1:36:55this kind of innate response, which was
1:36:58the salivating. Okay.
1:36:59Would this be like the behavioral
1:37:01manifestation of the neuroscientific
1:37:03idea of like what fires together wires
1:37:05together? Or are those different things?
1:37:07Well, I mean, later on that's how it
1:37:09would be explained. Yes.
1:37:11Um and that was the That was the
1:37:14classical conditioning side, though. Um
1:37:16I think what you're starting to get a
1:37:17little bit more was the operant
1:37:19conditioning.
1:37:19Okay.
1:37:20Which is what the behaviorists really
1:37:21like that was their big kind of
1:37:23breakthrough was, "Okay, you have these
1:37:24classical conditioning experiments where
1:37:27you can make a dog salivate at the
1:37:28ringing of a bell. So, what?"
1:37:29Sure.
1:37:30But actually, when you introduce
1:37:31learning,
1:37:33um which is is relevant to the
1:37:34procrastination story, when you
1:37:36introduce learning into the equation,
1:37:38then it becomes what they call operant
1:37:39conditioning.
1:37:40Okay.
1:37:40Okay. And this was really um this really
1:37:44took hold. Watson kind of was was
1:37:47dancing around it, but it wasn't until
1:37:49Skinner came along, B.F. Skinner,
1:37:51Burrhus Frederic Skinner
1:37:53was his name. I did not know his real
1:37:55name. I was I was a psychology major. I
1:37:57did not know B.F. Skinner.
1:37:58I would go by B.F., too, if that was my
1:38:00name.
1:38:01[laughter]
1:38:01Yeah, he it's kind of a a dorky name,
1:38:03for sure. And he grew up in rural
1:38:05Pennsylvania. Yeah. But this was the
1:38:08idea of operant conditioning, where you
1:38:10learn through a series of rewards and
1:38:12punishments, yeah, okay.
1:38:14Um now
1:38:16Skinner, I don't know how much we want
1:38:17to get into how much do you want to get
1:38:18into Skinner? He's a fascinating dude.
1:38:20Okay.
1:38:21Okay. From a young age, he was very
1:38:23inventive.
1:38:24Uh he was always uh trying to come up
1:38:26with like new little inventions and
1:38:28contraptions. He had a very mechanical
1:38:29mind, which would later produce the the
1:38:32Skinner box, what we know as the Skinner
1:38:34box, right? You put the rat in the box,
1:38:37it pushes the lever, it gets a treat, it
1:38:38learns very quickly that pushing the
1:38:40lever gets a treat.
1:38:40Yeah.
1:38:41Skinner
1:38:42um
1:38:44actually found that you could get rats
1:38:46to do all sorts of things. He used rats,
1:38:48he used pigeons, those were his two main
1:38:49main animals, but he he found that you
1:38:52could get them to do all sorts of
1:38:54different complex very complex behaviors
1:38:56with just simple rewards and
1:38:57punishments, okay? Now um
1:39:01he so he invented the Skinner box. He he
1:39:05taught them to he
1:39:07he introduced the idea of shaping
1:39:08behavior, as well. Um so just little
1:39:11increments of you know, get the rat to
1:39:13press the bar. Okay, now get the rat to
1:39:14press press the wall, then press the
1:39:15bar. That kind of thing, and you could
1:39:16get these complex behaviors out of all
1:39:18of that. This is what again was called
1:39:20uh operant conditioning. Yeah. Skinner
1:39:22even got to a point where he coined the
1:39:25term radical behaviorism, which he
1:39:27thought even like internal states could
1:39:29be the result of rewards and
1:39:31punishments, okay? We'll get into that
1:39:32here in a little bit, but one of the
1:39:33reasons he thought that was because you
1:39:35could do some pretty complex behaviors
1:39:37with these simple animals and get uh
1:39:40just through a series of rewards and
1:39:42punishments, right? So for instance, he
1:39:44taught um
1:39:46He taught pigeons how to play ping pong.
1:39:48He taught them how to quote and quote
1:39:49read. It was more like a word
1:39:50recognition thing, but they could still
1:39:52It was kind of like reading. He's like,
1:39:53you know, now
1:39:54This is If I can teach a pigeon how to
1:39:56do these simple word recognitions, then
1:39:58taking a brain from a human you could do
1:40:00the same thing. Just reward and
1:40:02punishment. This is what this word says.
1:40:04You're rewarded through that through a
1:40:05little dopamine in your brain or
1:40:06whatever it is. And then you learn how
1:40:08to read. So he's like, all these
1:40:10behaviors can be reduced down to this
1:40:12very, very simple
1:40:14idea, which is you
1:40:16kind of like the wired together, fired
1:40:18together. You You repeat what you're
1:40:20rewarded for and you don't repeat what
1:40:22you're punished for.
1:40:24So to a a behaviorist procrastination
1:40:27really does just come down to
1:40:29um what you are rewarded or punished
1:40:32for.
1:40:33And uh in the case of procrastination,
1:40:36they would say something along the lines
1:40:38of, you know, you are One, you're
1:40:40rewarded for the the delay. You're
1:40:43anxious about whatever task this is. And
1:40:45then so in order to remove that anxiety,
1:40:48you just don't engage in it whatsoever.
1:40:50So there's your reward. Or the
1:40:51punishments aren't grave enough for you.
1:40:54We've kind of already touched on this,
1:40:55too, right? Like it's the the the
1:40:58consequence so far down the line that
1:41:00you're not even It's not even
1:41:01registering with you.
1:41:02you've discounted it, yeah.
1:41:03You discounted it completely. So it's
1:41:05really just a series of They just see it
1:41:07as a series of rewards and punishments,
1:41:09and that's what all animals, not just
1:41:11humans, but all of us are subjected to.
1:41:13That's like the law of nature for a
1:41:15behaviorist.
1:41:16Yeah. Yeah. So the solution for a
1:41:19behaviorist would be give yourself a
1:41:21worse punishment for not doing the
1:41:23thing.
1:41:24I think also a lot of
1:41:26Or reward yourself for doing the thing.
1:41:27Well,
1:41:28both, okay? As it Using punishments and
1:41:31rewards in your life strategically.
1:41:34Right? And this has definitely
1:41:36influenced a lot of the like the modern
1:41:37day productivity um space.
1:41:39Yeah.
1:41:40Um there's even a a law called Skinner's
1:41:42law. So, it's like make make the thing
1:41:44so um
1:41:46unpleasant not to do it that you just do
1:41:48it.
1:41:48Yes.
1:41:48Like that that's very much used in a lot
1:41:50of modern day
1:41:51uh uh productivity schemes and and and
1:41:53systems.
1:41:54there is something to that.
1:41:56100%.
1:41:57Again,
1:41:57Yeah.
1:41:58there's something to it.
1:41:59Yeah, yeah. It's It's
1:42:01It's
1:42:02I think about it a lot in terms of
1:42:03friction. Like adding and removing
1:42:06friction to certain behaviors, yes,
1:42:08right, in my environment. Um
1:42:10making it easier to do good be You know,
1:42:14it's like if you don't want to eat junk
1:42:15food, like just don't bring it in the
1:42:17house.
1:42:17Right.
1:42:18Right? So, you don't have to make those
1:42:19decisions in the first place or um
1:42:22if you want to do something like
1:42:25if you want to pick up a a new habit,
1:42:27like sign up for classes and get that
1:42:29accountability and convince a friend to
1:42:31go with you or whatever so that like not
1:42:34doing it becomes way more painful than
1:42:36doing it. It's funny because it it
1:42:38sounds so simple, but this is like for
1:42:40me personally, this is one of the the
1:42:42strongest levers that I have ever pulled
1:42:44Definitely, yeah.
1:42:44for my own behavior.
1:42:45Yeah. The environmental design is very
1:42:48much influenced by the behaviorist
1:42:49school of thought. The modern day
1:42:51environmentalist design, even go back to
1:42:54James Clear, setting up your environment
1:42:56in in such a way that rewards and
1:42:58punishes certain behaviors that you
1:43:00want. That's very much comes from the
1:43:02behaviorist school of thought, for sure.
1:43:03And uh also, there is even though, you
1:43:06know, they were a reaction to Freudian
1:43:08psychology, there is still kind of that
1:43:09pleasure-pain principle that carried
1:43:11over into behaviorism. They acknowledge
1:43:13that, um but they say that's it. We
1:43:15don't have to go any further than that.
1:43:16And we can just [clears throat] uh we
1:43:18can shape uh our lives and even society
1:43:20through a a series of rewards and
1:43:22punishments.
1:43:23Yeah.
1:43:24And yeah, so procrastination to them is
1:43:27uh really again, it's in terms of
1:43:29rewards and punishment, but there's you
1:43:31know, there's kind of like there's a
1:43:33refor- reinforcement of delay like I
1:43:35already said you um immediate
1:43:36indulgences that are in your environment
1:43:38are just easier to reach for, so we will
1:43:40reach for them.
1:43:41There's ineffective punishments um
1:43:44it's either distant or it's not a strong
1:43:46enough punishment for for us to not
1:43:48procrastinate on a any given task.
1:43:51Previous conditioning though too, they
1:43:53also bring that in. So, there is a
1:43:54little bit of you know, um if you were
1:43:57uh if previous uh experiences of nation
1:44:01went unpunished, then you're just more
1:44:03likely to do it, right? So, if you're in
1:44:05a job and you don't really face a lot of
1:44:06consequences for not getting something
1:44:08done, well, you're going to just going
1:44:09to continue doing that. That's a
1:44:10behaviorist view. And then there's an
1:44:12also they have this negative
1:44:13reinforcement loop. Um which there's
1:44:17greater anxiety as a deadline
1:44:18approaches, right? And it can make
1:44:21finishing that task more relieving. Like
1:44:24the the more pressure you put on
1:44:25yourself, the greater the relief you
1:44:27experience once you do finally do that.
1:44:30Well, it's funny cuz one of the one of
1:44:31the people I talked to in preparation
1:44:33for this podcast was Tim Urban who has
1:44:36the most watched TED Talk of all time
1:44:38about procrastination.
1:44:40And it's funny cuz I've I've been
1:44:41friends with Tim for over 10 years and
1:44:44and I I know him very well and it he is
1:44:46he's a chronic procrastinator, but he's
1:44:48also like
1:44:50I don't know. I I've known a number of
1:44:52people like him where
1:44:53it's they get in this pattern where
1:44:57you you kind of mentioned this earlier
1:44:58that that they
1:45:00they
1:45:01feel like they thrive under pressure and
1:45:04they need that pressure cooker
1:45:07experience going on around them, right?
1:45:09Like that's that's what actually gets
1:45:11them to perform. And so, they
1:45:12continuously throw themselves into that
1:45:14situation over and over again. And you
1:45:17know, doing the work weeks ahead of time
1:45:19and not stressing or worrying about it
1:45:22at all, like that's not a very
1:45:23interesting emotional experience. It's
1:45:25kind of boring and requires you know, a
1:45:28lot of forethought. Whereas waiting till
1:45:30the night before, having this super
1:45:33extremely stressful event, and then,
1:45:35like you said, the relief of
1:45:37accomplishing that stressful event, um
1:45:40that can easily be something that you
1:45:41condition into yourself.
1:45:4295% of college students right there.
1:45:45[laughter]
1:45:45That's what it is. That was That was a
1:45:46lot of my college experience. It totally
1:45:48probably exists. Yeah.
1:45:49Yeah. Yeah. It was like I I I would get
1:45:51an assignment and I'd be like, "Oh, the
1:45:53all-nighter for this is going to be
1:45:54interesting."
1:45:55Yeah.
1:45:55[laughter]
1:45:55Yeah. Yeah. And if you could pull it
1:45:57off, so you did, right? Like you Again,
1:45:59you were rewarded
1:46:01uh in in these ways that you weren't
1:46:02don't even realize you're being
1:46:03rewarded, which is
1:46:06a a good example is the relief of that
1:46:08stress that you put yourself under. But
1:46:10it's a self-self-reinforcing stress
1:46:12through it's just self-imposed stress, I
1:46:14should say. I This might be a good time
1:46:16to talk a little bit about that. Driving
1:46:17under pressure. You know I talked a
1:46:18little bit about this.
1:46:19I know I know you you have a bone to
1:46:21pick with this.
1:46:22a huge bone to pick with this because
1:46:23I've been
1:46:23Cuz I feel like I'm one of these people.
1:46:25Right. And in talking to people around
1:46:27this, like I would say, "Oh, yeah, we're
1:46:28doing this this big long podcast on
1:46:30procrastination." And everyone's like,
1:46:31"Oh, I need this." But
1:46:33almost all the time or good number of
1:46:35people immediately would say, "Oh, but I
1:46:37thrive under pressure. I need the dead-
1:46:39I need the pressure of the deadline."
1:46:41And I have thought a lot about that, and
1:46:44I think that's just
1:46:46[laughter]
1:46:47I To say to say that you thrive under
1:46:50pressure
1:46:50You're calling out our entire audience.
1:46:52I get No, no, no. Look, I I understand
1:46:54that it's motivating. I understand the
1:46:55pressure is motivating.
1:46:57Sure, but you don't need it.
1:46:58This is the more common thing that I
1:46:59hear. I do my best work under pressure.
1:47:02Mm. And that I think is total
1:47:04Okay. There are people who thrive under
1:47:05pressure, I get it. Like like a
1:47:06situation comes up that like something
1:47:09needs to get done, and people are boom,
1:47:10they just snap into that get done
1:47:12mode, right? I That I totally believe
1:47:14in. That's That's That's something
1:47:15separate. That's not what I'm talking
1:47:16about. When people say, "I do my best
1:47:18work under pressure,"
1:47:20I'm always My immediate question is
1:47:22compared to what?
1:47:23Right.
1:47:24Compared to not doing anything at all?
1:47:27[laughter]
1:47:27Cuz that's the only work you do, sure
1:47:29it's your best work, but it's the only
1:47:31work you do.
1:47:32[laughter]
1:47:32That's
1:47:33I I don't I don't agree with that at
1:47:35all.
1:47:35I feel so attacked right now.
1:47:37[laughter]
1:47:37I get it. I look, I get it sometimes you
1:47:39just have to. Sometimes like there's
1:47:41just so much going on in most people's
1:47:43lives that they use that pressure to get
1:47:46things done. I get that. Like there's
1:47:47just there's only so many hours in the
1:47:49day. That's fine. Don't tell me that's
1:47:50your best work when you're fearing the
1:47:53negative consequences of not getting
1:47:55something done, that's your best work.
1:47:57So yeah, yeah, are you really going to
1:47:58tell me that's your best work that you
1:48:00can produce?
1:48:00Let's let's back up the truck of just a
1:48:03couple a couple a couple feet.
1:48:05Okay.
1:48:06I hear what you're saying. I I don't
1:48:08think you're wrong. I I so here I'll
1:48:11I'll I'll kind of delineate what I think
1:48:13you're right about, which is that the
1:48:16people who say that, they have probably
1:48:18[clears throat]
1:48:18not had a healthy working experience.
1:48:22Cuz what you're saying is is like, okay,
1:48:23if these people budgeted their time,
1:48:26let's say they have a an assignment due
1:48:28in two weeks, right?
1:48:29Okay. Okay.
1:48:29If they were diligent, they budgeted
1:48:31their time, they're like, okay, I'm
1:48:32going to spend an hour to two hours a
1:48:34day every single day, and then the last
1:48:36day, you know, I'll have most of it done
1:48:38or whatever. And they'll have time to
1:48:40rethink things and go back and change
1:48:42things and do further research and like
1:48:44dig in the other stuff. Yes, they will
1:48:46probably have a much better result with
1:48:50much less stress. I guess maybe this is
1:48:52the funny thing is that budgeting of
1:48:53time and following that schedule and
1:48:56following that plan, they don't see that
1:48:58as part of the work. They see that as
1:49:00something different. And so that it it's
1:49:04it's
1:49:05all they experience is
1:49:09maybe they try to work on it a week
1:49:10ahead of time and they're like, this is
1:49:12boring, this sucks.
1:49:14Yeah.
1:49:14Uh there's no emotional stimulus
1:49:17happening and so they lose interest or
1:49:20they don't try very hard and then they
1:49:22get two days out and they start freaking
1:49:24out and panicking and then that forces
1:49:26them to like really focus and put in a
1:49:29lot of effort.
1:49:30And so they get that emotional
1:49:31stimulation which then gets channeled
1:49:33into the work itself and then yeah sure
1:49:35the the work that they do then is much
1:49:37superior to like the half-assed attempt
1:49:39that they had a week prior. So I agree
1:49:42with that yes.
1:49:42I can see how that is probably their
1:49:44experience and I I can also see your
1:49:46point that like if they were very
1:49:47diligent and budgeted out their time
1:49:49like say two weeks in advance and did a
1:49:50little bit every day and really thought
1:49:52were thoughtful and considerate about
1:49:54like the work they were doing yes they
1:49:55would produce a much better outcome. But
1:49:58they've never had that experience.
1:49:59They've never
1:50:00That's my point. Yeah.
1:50:01Yeah yeah yeah.
1:50:02Compared to what?
1:50:03Yeah no you
1:50:04you are correct in that regard. But I I
1:50:06I think
1:50:07you I think the point that you're kind
1:50:09of like
1:50:10subtly raising here is that a lot of
1:50:13people I guess maybe mistake the
1:50:15emotional stimulus
1:50:17for
1:50:18the work
1:50:19right like
1:50:21it is it is that anxiety fueled frenzy
1:50:25where they get a ton of stuff done and
1:50:28they are super focused
1:50:30that they they associate that with good
1:50:33work because it is enlivening it's
1:50:36it's exciting it's stimulating
1:50:40and they are way more focused on on a
1:50:42task or a goal than they usually are in
1:50:45most circumstances. So in their mind
1:50:47they're like yeah this is
1:50:48I'm doing great work right now.
1:50:51So
1:50:52I guess what I'm saying is it's it's
1:50:53more of a skill issue like
1:50:56if they knew how to budget things out
1:50:58well in advance and do a little bit
1:50:59every day and like thoughtfully look at
1:51:02their work every day
1:51:03they would agree with you but it's it's
1:51:05like I guess I'm just agreeing with you
1:51:07but it I'm like softening the
1:51:09There's a nuance to it. I don't get
1:51:10that.
1:51:10I'm like so I'm like I feel so attacked
1:51:13that I'm like
1:51:13[laughter]
1:51:15You're now recoiling. Your ego is being
1:51:17attacked.
1:51:17I exactly my ego my ego's being
1:51:18threatened. So no I I think it's just I
1:51:21think you are I think you are
1:51:23directionally correct. I do think it's a
1:51:24little bit more nuanced than I guess I'm
1:51:26kind of like diplomat as somebody who
1:51:29was that person
1:51:30for
1:51:31a lot of his life.
1:51:32And I have been too. That's I'm I'm I'm
1:51:34including myself in this too. I get
1:51:36that. I mean okay if you're if you're
1:51:38saying I do my best work under pressure
1:51:40I again what I think you're saying is I
1:51:44do my best work when only the threat of
1:51:46the negative consequences are on the
1:51:48line. And not only that but I'm I'm
1:51:51limiting myself to such a small time
1:51:53window that you're going to tell me that
1:51:55like all your first if creative work
1:51:57especially all your first ideas are
1:51:59going to be your best ideas because
1:52:00that's all the time you have to put down
1:52:02or to to to work out in whatever
1:52:04creative work you're doing. I don't
1:52:05think so.
1:52:06Some of this might
1:52:07come down to I I agree with that. Some
1:52:09of this might come down to the type of
1:52:10work as well. I mean here's a counter
1:52:12argument is that is that pressure
1:52:14a lot of pressure is is derived from
1:52:16high expectation right? So when the
1:52:19caliber of the work is not expected to
1:52:21be that high you don't feel the pressure
1:52:22and so you don't try very hard. But when
1:52:24the when the caliber of work is expected
1:52:25to be extremely high that's a lot of
1:52:27pressure
1:52:28and so you try a lot harder. I mean I
1:52:30think most people have had a
1:52:32I mean maybe this gets it a little bit
1:52:34into a discussion of expectation
1:52:37and procrastination. But like I think
1:52:39most of us most of us have had an
1:52:41experience at some point in our lives
1:52:42where like somebody has come to you and
1:52:44be like hey Drew I need you to do this
1:52:46thing
1:52:46and the first time you hear it you're
1:52:48like that's impossible.
1:52:50And they're like oh and by the way I
1:52:51need it in like four days.
1:52:53And then you do it and you're like holy
1:52:55I could actually do that right? So
1:52:57it it is like
1:52:58Okay.
1:52:59I'm just going to throw that element out
1:53:00there.
1:53:01I I'm not saying it's not motivating.
1:53:03I'm not saying you shouldn't like
1:53:05leverage that when it does happen. I I
1:53:07just don't think you should rely on that
1:53:09to do your best work. That's what I'm
1:53:11saying.
1:53:11I 100% agree.
1:53:12Thank you for bringing in the nuance. I
1:53:14was very angry about
1:53:15[laughter]
1:53:16And now you you've softened it. I do
1:53:18agree with that.
1:53:18You were on your soapbox and I I managed
1:53:20to kind of kick it out from under you.
1:53:22From [laughter] From the behaviorist
1:53:24point of view though, too. Again, going
1:53:26back to those what you're fearing is the
1:53:27negative consequences.
1:53:29Well, they've I mean, a lot of studies
1:53:31have shown that you know, punishments
1:53:32aren't
1:53:33really as effective at least not They're
1:53:35effective in the short term. They're not
1:53:36effective in the long term.
1:53:37Yeah. Right.
1:53:38Rewards are more effective, I think, in
1:53:40the long term. Part of that I do think
1:53:42goes back to something I mentioned
1:53:43earlier was about agency. We think we
1:53:46When we're just being punished for
1:53:47something, we don't feel like we have
1:53:48the agency to actually make decisions.
1:53:50But when there's rewards on the line, we
1:53:52can choose whether or not we like that
1:53:53reward. And I think that's that's
1:53:55something that came out of the
1:53:56behaviorist um
1:53:57well, an interpretation of the
1:53:58behaviorist view anyway, that I I think
1:54:01is actually very useful for people.
1:54:02So, where do you think behaviorism went
1:54:05wrong? What did they miss? Cuz
1:54:07everything you're describing, at least
1:54:08in the context of procrastination, I'm
1:54:09like, yeah, that works. That works. Yep,
1:54:12that works. So, what did what what did
1:54:15they fall short on?
1:54:16Yeah, I mean, all the environmental
1:54:17design stuff I think they nailed
1:54:19definitely. I think
1:54:21though, even though Skinner later in his
1:54:24life came to this what he called
1:54:25behavioral
1:54:26radical behaviorism,
1:54:28which was that even our mental processes
1:54:30and cognitions could be reduced to
1:54:32rewards and punishments, I don't think
1:54:34they ever fully showed that and I think
1:54:36they ignore a lot of the emotional
1:54:38states and cognitive internal processes.
1:54:42Not only do they ignore them, they
1:54:43explicitly ignore them. So, we're not
1:54:45going to worry about those kind of
1:54:46things because
1:54:48some method will come along where we can
1:54:49explain it in terms of rewards and
1:54:51punishments. Yeah. So, they ignore that.
1:54:54It We We can also We can override our
1:54:58sensibilities around rewards and
1:54:59punishments, too.
1:55:01To which I think is a cognitive, again,
1:55:03an internal cognitive process that
1:55:06happens.
1:55:06Yeah.
1:55:07That gets overridden by these principles
1:55:09of just simple rewards and punishments.
1:55:12I wonder what Skinner would think of
1:55:13David Goggins.
1:55:15[laughter and snorts]
1:55:16Oh, that's a thought experiment, God.
1:55:18What would he say about David Goggins?
1:55:19Yeah, of where he just constantly
1:55:22self-flagellating,
1:55:23punishing himself, yeah.
1:55:25Putting himself through the most pain
1:55:26that he possibly can.
1:55:27Yeah.
1:55:28Yeah.
1:55:28Well, man, you know, maybe they would
1:55:30say that it's a kind of a higher order
1:55:32of operate operant conditioning where
1:55:33you get some sort of reward out of it
1:55:35eventually, and he's just conditioned
1:55:36himself to to
1:55:39experience that reward over time.
1:55:41See, I I in the in the context of
1:55:43Goggins, I see the Freudian ego
1:55:46explanation is more effective, and and I
1:55:49mean I mean ego strictly in the Freudian
1:55:51sense, not as like, "Oh my god, Goggins
1:55:53has an ego." But in terms of it's a it's
1:55:55like Goggins has built an identity
1:55:57around
1:55:59doing incredibly hard and painful
1:56:00things. And so, to maintain and preserve
1:56:03that ego that he's built for himself,
1:56:05which has served him extremely well in
1:56:06his life, and he's like rewarded him in
1:56:08many ways, but to maintain that ego, he
1:56:11like needs to get out in front of
1:56:13punish himself. It's kind of
1:56:14what we were saying that it's like when
1:56:16the habit becomes the identity, you have
1:56:18to do the action. It feels It feels more
1:56:20painful to not do the action than to do
1:56:22it, right? And so, it's like Goggins has
1:56:24built an identity around
1:56:27doing incredibly difficult painful
1:56:29things. And so, he has reached this
1:56:32crazy place where he probably
1:56:35feels weird not doing painful things
1:56:38rather than doing them.
1:56:39Well, he was also socially rewarded for
1:56:41doing those things though, too, right?
1:56:43The culture he grew he he
1:56:46kind of forged all that was Navy SEALs,
1:56:49socially rewarded.
1:56:50Totally.
1:56:51So, the behaviorists would say, "Ah, no,
1:56:52there's actually a big
1:56:54behaviorist
1:56:56lens we can put this to it." And we
1:56:57don't it doesn't have to be reduced to
1:56:59identities and
1:57:00So is the behavior I mean
1:57:02I like the
1:57:03maybe I'm naive but I I like to try to
1:57:05see everything as like a puzzle and see
1:57:07where everything fits together. You know
1:57:08I you
1:57:09I guess are we seeing the behavior the
1:57:11behaviorist perspective is
1:57:14kind of the interaction between the
1:57:15super ego and the ego like
1:57:17the the rewards it's like how the world
1:57:20is rewarding you and punishing you and
1:57:21how like
1:57:23I suppose you could see it that way
1:57:24yeah.
1:57:25Um
1:57:25I mean
1:57:27I I I would think I would say that the
1:57:28behaviorist saw human nature as finely
1:57:32tuned to social rewards.
1:57:34Yeah.
1:57:35Uh and so those are big big rewards that
1:57:37have a very high valence with a very
1:57:38high salience when you think about them.
1:57:40There's
1:57:42you will approach those a a lot more
1:57:44readily.
1:57:44Yeah.
1:57:45Um
1:57:47So I mean
1:57:49anything just like with operant
1:57:51conditioning anything can be turned into
1:57:53a reward almost
1:57:55the operant part is that you're learning
1:57:56about these rewards or punishments. So
1:57:59almost anything can like with the
1:58:00Goggins example punishment can be its
1:58:02own form of reward at at some level. And
1:58:05so I think the the even the behaviorist
1:58:06would go so far as to say that yeah it's
1:58:08all just comes down to this
1:58:11seeking pleasure avoiding pain you know.
1:58:13I I think really though the the big
1:58:16takeaway from the behaviorist was these
1:58:18practical tools that we've kind of
1:58:19already
1:58:20environmental stuff.
1:58:21the environmental stuff
1:58:22So useful.
1:58:22setting up
1:58:24teaching yourself about the rewards and
1:58:25punishments that you're being aware of
1:58:27the the environment and how it rewards
1:58:29and punishes you in different ways. The
1:58:31refrigerator example with the junk food
1:58:33is a good example of that.
1:58:35Yeah.
1:58:35Um I I think that's the biggest takeaway
1:58:37and um
1:58:39you know even today all of like the
1:58:40productivity systems and and gurus who
1:58:43preach the kind of environmental and
1:58:46only environmental side they draw from a
1:58:47lot of this but they're not wrong.
1:58:50It's just incomplete.
1:58:51It's incomplete yeah.
1:58:52So, I think we're getting closer.
1:58:55Um this is part of the puzzle. Yeah, the
1:58:57rewards and the punishments along with
1:58:59the identity stuff from Freud. Yeah,
1:59:00sure. That's all there. The skills stuff
1:59:03we got from from Aristotle. We're
1:59:05starting to build a little bit of a
1:59:06picture where, okay, these things fit
1:59:07together.
1:59:08It doesn't have to be a war between all
1:59:10of these things and we can take the best
1:59:11parts of it. And I think that's I think
1:59:13that's where we're we're headed with it,
1:59:14yeah.
1:59:15Cool. [music]
1:59:16Awesome.
1:59:21Well, let's move on to the next thing
1:59:22then.
1:59:24Which is time management.
1:59:25Ah, yes.
1:59:27So, as we move into the mid-20th
1:59:29century, it's actually interesting to me
1:59:31that there's there is so much credence
1:59:33to what the behaviorists were saying.
1:59:35Like all this environmental design
1:59:36stuff, it actually does work for
1:59:38productivity.
1:59:39Yet, what we got
1:59:42was a bunch of time management
1:59:44consultant So, how did this
1:59:47how did that happen?
1:59:48[laughter]
1:59:48Well, okay, you put it Let's let's put
1:59:50it a little bit in historical context
1:59:52here. So, yeah, the earliest early 20th
1:59:55century you you have the Freudians and
1:59:57the behaviorists battling it out. Um
2:00:00what changes though as we start to get
2:00:02into the middle of the century, so
2:00:03starting the '40s, '50s, '60s, is
2:00:05there's a a big shift in the economy,
2:00:07right? The post-war economy shifts much
2:00:10more towards kind of the knowledge work
2:00:12the beginning of the knowledge work.
2:00:14Especially get into the '60s, think of
2:00:15like Mad Men, you know, the ad agencies,
2:00:17corporate drones. All of that starts
2:00:20So,
2:00:20people start going from the farms and
2:00:21the factories. We have been urbanizing
2:00:24for, you know, several decades since the
2:00:26Industrial Revolution started in the
2:00:281800s.
2:00:29Slowly urbanizing and we're getting a
2:00:32new economy out of this. Knowledge work
2:00:34becomes a thing.
2:00:36So,
2:00:37the ad agencies, the design designing
2:00:40products for consumer products for
2:00:42the masses, all of that starts to crop
2:00:44up, right? So,
2:00:46if you think about that, that's a very
2:00:48different work environment, right? You
2:00:50go from a factory or a farm, you know
2:00:51exactly what you need to do, it's right
2:00:52in front of you, it's very tangible.
2:00:54You're in a factory, especially too,
2:00:55somebody else is telling you exactly
2:00:57what to do, you don't have to think
2:00:58about it. Whereas, if you're getting
2:01:00into more creative work in the the new
2:01:01knowledge economy, now you have all of
2:01:04this
2:01:06there's all these tasks that are
2:01:08nebulous kind of and they're even the
2:01:10end goals a lot of times are nebulous.
2:01:12It's creative work, they're not really
2:01:13sure what you're producing.
2:01:15You're given a little bit more autonomy,
2:01:16too, in those spaces. And so, now you
2:01:18have to manage your own time. Okay? Up
2:01:21until this point, too, like I said, a
2:01:23lot of the things you were supposed to
2:01:24do had kind of been outlined for you.
2:01:26Somebody else told you what to do, for
2:01:27the most part, for the the average
2:01:29worker. Now, you're you're managing your
2:01:31own time and you need a way to organize
2:01:33all this and decide, what do I need to
2:01:35be working on right now?
2:01:37And so, for a lot of the the the
2:01:41industry, I don't know if there were
2:01:42really gurus around this time, but this
2:01:44is kind of their their predecessors,
2:01:46they thought, "Oh, well, these people
2:01:47just need to be taught how to organize
2:01:49their time, how to manage their time."
2:01:51So, this is where kind of the time
2:01:52management philosophy really starts to
2:01:53take hold and and rise to the collective
2:01:56conscious.
2:01:56Yeah.
2:01:57There's a lot of the like techniques
2:02:00that come out of this, too, um at least
2:02:02started here, even the ones we use
2:02:03today, Pomodoro techniques and time
2:02:07boxing and all that. We can get into
2:02:08those here in a little bit, but that's
2:02:09kind of that sets the stage, anyway, the
2:02:11historical stage for the time management
2:02:13crowd.
2:02:14Okay.
2:02:15So, you you had your bone to pick like
2:02:1720 minutes ago. Okay. This this
2:02:19section's going to be my bone to pick.
2:02:22I just think most of this is nonsense.
2:02:24I'll pile on with you, I think, for the
2:02:26most part. [laughter]
2:02:26Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have a few
2:02:29observations here.
2:02:30First of all,
2:02:32is this is a very subtle
2:02:35Plato back with a vengeance type
2:02:37situation, which is like we have all
2:02:40these office workers, we have all these
2:02:41worker bees,
2:02:43they're they're it at their desk,
2:02:45they're doing they're typing,
2:02:46[clears throat] they're doing things,
2:02:47but like the output is completely
2:02:49unpredictable, and a lot of people are
2:02:51underperforming. Uh
2:02:53what's the problem? Oh, they must not
2:02:55know the right things, right? And it I I
2:02:58find it so interesting that repeatedly
2:03:00throughout history, that is our default.
2:03:03Like it it's like if I just knew the
2:03:05right system, if I just knew how to
2:03:08organize my time, if I just knew how to
2:03:10use my calendar, if I just knew how to
2:03:13time box my week, you know, like it
2:03:16then everything is going to be fine, and
2:03:19I don't know, it's like what is so
2:03:20seductive about that?
2:03:22It's simple.
2:03:23It's simple. It's It's you can point to
2:03:24one thing and say, "Oh, I just need to
2:03:26know how to organize better. I just need
2:03:27to know how to
2:03:29uh manage my time more effectively and
2:03:32and and box this little bit of time over
2:03:34here for this little thing and and this
2:03:35little thing over here." It's a simple
2:03:37story.
2:03:38It's also, I would say, it's
2:03:40unemotional. Yes.
2:03:41Yes.
2:03:42Like it we
2:03:42rational.
2:03:43It's very very rational. It's very
2:03:44rational, and you know, we just talked
2:03:46about, you know, with Freud and Skinner,
2:03:48like we just spent 45 minutes talking
2:03:51about how
2:03:52defense mechanisms and resistance and
2:03:55rationalization and like all these
2:03:57excuses that you come up with and how
2:03:59uncomfortable it is and
2:04:01It's exhausting.
2:04:02It is exhausting. Like emotions are
2:04:03exhausting. But it it there is
2:04:06something alleviating, there's something
2:04:08relieving about uh just being like,
2:04:11"Well, I just need to get the right
2:04:12calendar system." Or or or if I if I get
2:04:15the right morning Like these days it's
2:04:16the morning routine, right? Because
2:04:18everybody's self-employed, so it's like
2:04:20I just need the right morning routine,
2:04:21and then and then my day is going to be
2:04:23great. I'm going to get so much done.
2:04:25I I think here here's a spicy take. I
2:04:27think 90% of the time this is just
2:04:29another subtle form of procrastination.
2:04:32100% I agree with that.
2:04:33It It is It is let me study the
2:04:35techniques and systems that are going to
2:04:36make me more more productive so I don't
2:04:39actually have to go be more productive.
2:04:40Mhm.
2:04:41Yeah. Because [clears throat] being
2:04:41productive is actually uncomfortable and
2:04:43scary and I all these emotions start
2:04:45happening and I don't want to deal with
2:04:46those. So let me let me study this
2:04:48calendar system and try to get it down.
2:04:49Absolutely. And exhibit A, look at how
2:04:51many productivity apps are out there.
2:04:53Those are all come from the the time
2:04:55management kind of philosophy. They they
2:04:57start there at least.
2:04:59And correct me if I'm wrong cuz you did
2:05:00more research on on this section than I
2:05:02did but like
2:05:04most of the research around this stuff
2:05:05is like not
2:05:07there's no not a whole lot of there.
2:05:08Oh yeah, no. They they tried to do some
2:05:10research I think kind of in the 70s is
2:05:12when they and they're just like we're
2:05:13not finding anything here. I mean just
2:05:15anecdotally too, look at it. There's
2:05:17people who are highly organized uh
2:05:20professionally, personally, whatever,
2:05:21they still procrastinate.
2:05:23Yeah.
2:05:24It isn't it is not just about the
2:05:25system. And that's speaking from
2:05:27somebody who's tried every system there
2:05:28ever was out there. [laughter] Maybe not
2:05:29everyone but I've tried a lot of
2:05:31[snorts] different systems. I have my
2:05:32little system. I do have a time
2:05:33management system, don't get me wrong.
2:05:35Right.
2:05:35I I think too if you go from somebody
2:05:37who's never had a
2:05:38uh it's just been told what to do at all
2:05:40times and then you just tell them,
2:05:42"Okay, now go do whatever you need to do
2:05:44without any structure." Yeah, they
2:05:45probably need some time management
2:05:46skills. Right. Absolutely. It is nowhere
2:05:49near the uh
2:05:51uh the underlying cause of what causes
2:05:53people to not get things done.
2:05:54Yeah.
2:05:55Some of the tenets of time management,
2:05:57you know, setting clear priorities and
2:05:58goals. Well, sure, okay.
2:06:00Yeah.
2:06:00Um
2:06:01people often they underestimated how
2:06:03long tasks would take. So getting better
2:06:04at managing your time.
2:06:05Struggling. Yeah.
2:06:06Struggle you struggle to structure your
2:06:08day.
2:06:09Um
2:06:10and so you end up working on less
2:06:12important tasks over more important
2:06:14tasks. So prioritizing. Sure, all of
2:06:15these things obviously you need to have
2:06:16those skills but it's not getting at the
2:06:18root cause right at all.
2:06:20You know, there
2:06:21but there are still
2:06:23going to your point too, just recently
2:06:25actually I I tried a new system. A new
2:06:28um way of kind of capturing my to-do
2:06:30lists and organizing my time and even
2:06:32time boxing and stuff like that. And it
2:06:34uh it was AI-enabled. So, of course I
2:06:36was really excited to try it. Um when I
2:06:38tried it, it was very disappointing.
2:06:40[laughter]
2:06:41Because I'm like, oh, this is just the
2:06:42same the same I've already tried,
2:06:44just repackaged and they put AI in front
2:06:46of the the name of it.
2:06:47Yeah.
2:06:48And so I got on a forum and I asked them
2:06:49about a couple of things. I'm like, what
2:06:50about, you know, X, Y, and Z?
2:06:52And somebody immediately jumped in and
2:06:54they were like, they're like, look, this
2:06:56community and the the team uh for this
2:06:59app are just so dedicated and devoted.
2:07:01And they had this long long response to
2:07:03my thing that had nothing to do with
2:07:05actually getting done.
2:07:06[laughter]
2:07:07But that's where that's where this leads
2:07:08though, too. You're right. The people
2:07:09it's it's another form of
2:07:10procrastination. Like, I learned so much
2:07:12from this app. That was one of the lines
2:07:14they said. I've learned so much from I
2:07:15don't want to learn about an app. I just
2:07:17want to get done, right?
2:07:18Right.
2:07:19I think that is the big risk with this.
2:07:22These apps and other systems and people
2:07:25who wrote books on this, they've made a
2:07:26lot of money and we still haven't found
2:07:28the time management solution.
2:07:29Cuz they're they're they're they're
2:07:30feeding that seduction, that that that
2:07:33Plato seduction of like, if I just knew
2:07:35the right thing. I mean, this kind of
2:07:37dovetails into just the self-help
2:07:39industry in general. I'm sure this is
2:07:40going to come up on a lot more episodes
2:07:42of like
2:07:43people thinking knowledge is the
2:07:45solution when it's really a like it's an
2:07:47emotional problem. I'm
2:07:49kind of spoiling the the ending here,
2:07:51but like procrastination is an emotional
2:07:53problem and
2:07:56sure, knowledge can like nudge you
2:07:58slightly in this direction or that. A a
2:08:01a framework a time management framework,
2:08:03you know, a
2:08:04certain system that you build for
2:08:06yourself can nudge you in this direction
2:08:07or that. Your environment nudges you in
2:08:09this direction or that. Ultimately, it's
2:08:11an emotional problem. I I have a couple
2:08:14thoughts. One came up just while you
2:08:16were talking, which is like, yes, you're
2:08:19you are correct. Like, I think every
2:08:20productive person develops some sort of
2:08:22system for themselves.
2:08:25What people mistake is that that system
2:08:27is not the cause of their productivity,
2:08:28it's the effect.
2:08:29Uh-huh. Yes.
2:08:30Right? You like you learn what your
2:08:32personality is, what your proclivities
2:08:34are, what your emotional pitfalls are,
2:08:37the the things that you get anxious
2:08:38about and that you worry about and that
2:08:39you stress about and the way you like to
2:08:41get things done and the sorts of things
2:08:43you like to do first thing in the
2:08:44morning versus last thing in the
2:08:46afternoon.
2:08:47And you build your own system around
2:08:49that to optimize for yourself. And
2:08:53eventually, once you spend enough time
2:08:55doing it, you know, you you get 10, 15
2:08:57years into your work life, uh
2:09:01you figured out pretty well what works
2:09:03for yourself and what doesn't. And
2:09:06that does make you very effective on a
2:09:07day-to-day basis. But then other people
2:09:09show up and they're like, "Oh, what what
2:09:11system do you use?" And they just assume
2:09:13that like if you if they just adopt your
2:09:14system that it's going to work perfectly
2:09:16for them. Yet, uh you know, a lot of
2:09:18people have built multi-million dollar
2:09:20businesses around that. So, that's
2:09:21that's the first thought. Um
2:09:23the second thought, I thought what you
2:09:24said, you know, you while you were
2:09:27describing knowledge work, you raised a
2:09:29really good point that I hadn't really
2:09:30thought about before, which is uh you
2:09:32know, in the kind of the industrial
2:09:34economy or agrarian economy, the
2:09:37measurement of the output is like
2:09:39predetermined, right? Like if you're a
2:09:40factory worker, you go in, your boss is
2:09:43like, "Hey, I need 50 of these widgets
2:09:44per day."
2:09:45Mhm. It's very [clears throat] tangible,
2:09:46yeah.
2:09:46Super tangible and it's very measurable
2:09:48and you know what your progress is. So,
2:09:50it's like, you know, if you break for
2:09:52lunch and you only have 22 widgets done
2:09:54instead of 25, you know you're behind
2:09:56schedule and so you know to like catch
2:09:58up in the afternoon. When you go into
2:09:59knowledge work, as you pointed out, a
2:10:01lot of it's creative, a lot of it's
2:10:03intangible, a lot of it is like involves
2:10:05negotiation, it involves like,
2:10:08you know, discussing committees and
2:10:11meetings and dealing with clients and,
2:10:14you know, taking somebody to the golf
2:10:16course and like all this stuff that is
2:10:18completely unmeasurable. What I know
2:10:21about human nature is that
2:10:24things that are not legible or
2:10:25measurable or or are uncertain, they
2:10:28they generate anxiety. And
2:10:31I imagine that there are lots of people
2:10:33in the knowledge work world. I know I I
2:10:34experience this all the time
2:10:36in my own work. I'm sure you do, too.
2:10:39Where it's like you want to feel like
2:10:40you're making progress on something.
2:10:42Yes. You know, you can like spend days
2:10:43or weeks on something. It is not
2:10:45necessarily clear to you that you've
2:10:47made any progress whatsoever.
2:10:50And so I've noticed it
2:10:51uh
2:10:52that on projects like that, I start
2:10:55measuring my time. You know, it's like
2:10:57uh books are a perfect example because
2:10:59books like literally take 2 years to
2:11:01write. So there are whole stretches in
2:11:03the middle of a book where you actually
2:11:05don't know if you're making any progress
2:11:06or not. Like
2:11:08you're like this entire chapter could
2:11:10end up deleted, right? You know, like
2:11:12everything I've worked on this month
2:11:13might be for nothing.
2:11:15So
2:11:16that doesn't feel good. So what do you
2:11:18start doing? You start measuring the
2:11:20hours you put in.
2:11:21You know, you start measuring like,
2:11:22"Okay, I did I've done
2:11:2411 days in a row of at least 3 hours a
2:11:27day, right?" So it's like I'm
2:11:29I'm doing a good job. I'm a good author.
2:11:31Right. Are you? [snorts] Like
2:11:33Yeah. [laughter]
2:11:34But the same thing with to-do lists,
2:11:36too, right? Like I keep a to-do list and
2:11:38stuff like that. I love checking things
2:11:39off and sometimes I'll keep their
2:11:41completed
2:11:42task list there so I can see it and it's
2:11:44looks tangible. I'm making progress on
2:11:46something, but am I? I don't know. Or am
2:11:48I just checking boxes?
2:11:49Yeah.
2:11:49And it can get to that. Just that that
2:11:52box checking can become its own little
2:11:54task of your
2:11:55A conditioning, right? Yeah.
2:11:57Yeah. There are, you know, a a number of
2:11:59things I I mentioned a few of these that
2:12:00already came out of this era
2:12:02um or at least were inspired by this era
2:12:04that we still even use today. One of the
2:12:06kind of famous ones amongst the kind of
2:12:08productivity crowd anyway like the
2:12:10Eisenhower matrix, right?
2:12:12Dwight Eisenhower was president after
2:12:14World War II. Was this this time frame
2:12:15was very popular. So we had this
2:12:17quadrant, right? Uh on one side you had
2:12:20what was it? Importance and then on the
2:12:22other side was urgency. So, it could be
2:12:23highly important and highly urgent, low
2:12:25on each.
2:12:26Yeah.
2:12:26You get these four four quadrants. And
2:12:28he said the quadrant two, which was
2:12:30important but not urgent, are were the
2:12:32tasks that typically got procrastinated
2:12:34on. So, his advice was to do those
2:12:35first. Not bad advice, don't get me
2:12:37wrong. But it still doesn't solve the
2:12:38problem of why is it not urgent? Why is
2:12:40it not important, right?
2:12:42just going to say like that's just the
2:12:441950s Eisenhower version of that that
2:12:46tweet I read at the the top of the show,
2:12:48which is like, you know, you have to
2:12:50give up short-term freedom to gain
2:12:52long-term freedom. Like all of your
2:12:53dreams are behind sacrifices. It was
2:12:55like, well, no Sherlock. Like this
2:12:57is I know this. This is not helping me.
2:13:00Uh so,
2:13:01I don't want to dog pile on this stuff
2:13:02because like
2:13:04it is useful
2:13:06Mhm.
2:13:07information.
2:13:08Absolutely.
2:13:08It's just not sufficient whatsoever.
2:13:11Like it is not the solution.
2:13:13Right. You shouldn't start there. I
2:13:14think a lot of people where when they're
2:13:16like, "Okay, I need to get a system
2:13:18together. I need to get something
2:13:19together where I can get stuff done."
2:13:20they'll start here. I don't think this
2:13:22is where you should start.
2:13:23Th- This is when you're optimizing
2:13:25what's already working.
2:13:26Right. Right. Yeah, find something that
2:13:27works first and then that go to this
2:13:28kind of stuff. Like I said, I've tried
2:13:30all the different systems, all the big
2:13:31ones and um you made this point already,
2:13:35but I it does ring true for me, too, is
2:13:37that I took the the one good thing from
2:13:39doing all that is I took the things that
2:13:41worked from each one of those and made
2:13:42it my own my own personal way. I just
2:13:44don't think there's any one system out
2:13:46there.
2:13:46No.
2:13:47Cuz every time again, like this this one
2:13:48app I just tried to use recently, I'm
2:13:50like, "Oh, this is it. This is the one.
2:13:52I found myself already like falling into
2:13:54that trap." and it's like, "Oh, no.
2:13:55There's there's no single system out
2:13:57there that's perfect for everybody."
2:13:58Yeah. And even even if you find a system
2:14:00that works for you today, like
2:14:023 years from now it'll be slightly
2:14:04different, you know?
2:14:043 weeks from now it'll be slightly
2:14:05different.
2:14:06[laughter]
2:14:06I can I can almost guarantee you that.
2:14:08Once you think you found the solution,
2:14:10it's yeah, there's something hiding
2:14:11around the corner that you didn't plan
2:14:12for.
2:14:13Yeah, for sure.
2:14:14For sure. [clears throat]
2:14:15Okay, but there are Okay, can we There
2:14:17There are some good things like we said.
2:14:19There are some good things that did come
2:14:20out of this. So, providing structure and
2:14:21clarity around what you need to do, that
2:14:23is a useful step.
2:14:25Yes.
2:14:25Obviously.
2:14:27Um I I think another thing that came out
2:14:29of what kind of a behaviorist um view,
2:14:31but also the time management crowd was
2:14:33breaking things up into smaller chunks.
2:14:35Mhm.
2:14:35Um and we'll talk about maybe a little
2:14:36bit later why that's um useful. It's not
2:14:39It's not because it just manages your
2:14:40time better. It's because it gives you a
2:14:42better emotional uh container for it,
2:14:45right?
2:14:45Yes. Correct.
2:14:46Yeah. Yeah. I also think too, one thing
2:14:48one benefit I got out of
2:14:50all these different time management
2:14:52systems is the ability to accurately
2:14:55assess how much work I can get done in a
2:14:57day. I I think that did actually come
2:14:59from
2:15:00trying and failing over and over and
2:15:02over. Because um for instance, you know,
2:15:04I time box or
2:15:06and I am by no means perfect at it and I
2:15:08change it constantly throughout the day
2:15:10even too. So, I'm not a rigid time
2:15:11boxer. But, I've gotten a lot better
2:15:13about okay,
2:15:15it used to be like I'd have 10 things on
2:15:16my to-do list and I'd try to time box
2:15:18them all and it's like I'm on thing two
2:15:20by 3:00 in the afternoon. And I'm like,
2:15:22"Okay, I got to be realistic about
2:15:23this." So, there is kind of even though
2:15:26you're approaching it from the more
2:15:27cognitive quote unquote rational side of
2:15:30your brain, I think there's some benefit
2:15:31in in the time boxing systems and
2:15:34methods that you can get out of that.
2:15:36They're not Again, it's not the base
2:15:38underlying cause, but yeah.
2:15:39Yeah, I mean again, I think a lot of
2:15:41this stuff is useful at the margins,
2:15:42right? It like what you just described,
2:15:44like gaining an accurate assessment of
2:15:48which part what parts of your job take
2:15:50what amounts of time. Like that's
2:15:52something that is just It's good to
2:15:54learn that over time. Like ultimately,
2:15:56procrastination
2:15:58is an issue of going from doing nothing
2:16:00to doing something. Yes. Even if that
2:16:02something is completely imperfect.
2:16:04Whereas I feel like time management is
2:16:05just
2:16:06is taking somebody who's already doing
2:16:07something and just helping them do it
2:16:09slightly better or more efficiently or
2:16:11in a slightly shorter amount of time.
2:16:13And
2:16:14uh
2:16:16And so yeah, I it comes back to what you
2:16:17said earlier. It's like this is not the
2:16:19place to start. This is this is not even
2:16:21the place to like go
2:16:23second or third. Like this is the place
2:16:24to go
2:16:26you know, when you're are
2:16:28when you're you're moving along and
2:16:30you're doing a lot of things really
2:16:31well, but you're just kind of wondering
2:16:32like how can I fit more stuff in or like
2:16:34how can I be more efficient with my
2:16:36time? Then you start taking a look at
2:16:38this stuff.
2:16:39Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
2:16:40Do we want to risk going into some of
2:16:42the things we do?
2:16:43[laughter]
2:16:44Do we What do we want to um throw those
2:16:46out there? I I might be a useful
2:16:48exercise for somebody with all of the
2:16:50caveats and the warnings we've already
2:16:51issued, but
2:16:52Sure. Yeah. Why don't you go first
2:16:55because um I'm weird.
2:16:56Yeah.
2:16:57And you know that.
2:16:59[laughter]
2:16:59I know, but I it actually it might be it
2:17:01might be a a useful segue as well just
2:17:04because um you know, as as someone with
2:17:07ADHD like my productivity function is
2:17:09like strange.
2:17:11Right.
2:17:11And so people who other people people
2:17:13who are listening who maybe have ADHD
2:17:15and are cuz I know procrastination
2:17:18disproportionately people with ADHD
2:17:19struggle with it. So um it might be
2:17:21useful to get into that.
2:17:22Okay. Okay.
2:17:23So why don't you go first?
2:17:24No, sure. So I mean
2:17:26for me I try to keep it as simple as I
2:17:28can. That That's one gripe I have with
2:17:30so many of these apps uh is that they
2:17:31get complicated way too quickly. They
2:17:33usually start out fairly simple and then
2:17:35I think what happens is they kind of get
2:17:36a like a
2:17:37audience capture a little bit. They're
2:17:38like, "Give me this feature. Give me
2:17:40this feature." and they just keep adding
2:17:41things. So
2:17:42So my one of my principles is to keep it
2:17:44as simple as possible. Have something
2:17:46Have a to-do list of some kind. Um I use
2:17:49Notion. That's what we use on the team.
2:17:50So I put all my tasks into a a a
2:17:53personal database that I have and
2:17:54there's a way to organize it. But then
2:17:56on a day on a daily basis when I'm
2:17:58trying to decide what to do, I do time
2:17:59box.
2:18:00Okay. For me this works
2:18:02Yep.
2:18:02Because um again, I I
2:18:05the most useful exercise out of all of
2:18:07this isn't like, okay, this is what I
2:18:09need to get done. Now, I'm going to go
2:18:10and get it. It's thinking about, okay,
2:18:12realistically,
2:18:14what can I get done in this amount of
2:18:15time? And after you time box for a
2:18:17while, again, like I was saying, you get
2:18:19you get better at this. And you get
2:18:20better at estimating how much time any
2:18:21given task is going to take you.
2:18:24Um
2:18:24Just describe really quick what time
2:18:26boxing is in case people don't know.
2:18:27Yeah, sure. So, time boxing is uh you
2:18:30you use some sort of system. In my case,
2:18:32I just use pencil and paper. I actually
2:18:33use Cal Newport's um time boxing Okay.
2:18:36journal that he has. Uh you could you
2:18:38could use any um journal to do this. I
2:18:40just I like his at this way it's
2:18:42formatted and everything like that.
2:18:44Essentially, the way I do it is I will
2:18:47write down, you know, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00
2:18:50down one side of the side of the paper.
2:18:51And then I make a box around any given
2:18:54say it's a 1-hour or 2-hour time box
2:18:55from 8:00 to 10:00, let's say, every
2:18:57morning.
2:18:58Um and uh I put on whatever task I need
2:19:01to get done. And I'm saying, I'm
2:19:02allotting 2 hours to this task or
2:19:04whatever it is.
2:19:05Mhm.
2:19:06Uh and so, I give myself those 2 hours,
2:19:08and I'm only going to work on that
2:19:10during those 2 hours. Now, life happens,
2:19:13and this it it's not a perfect system.
2:19:15And so, like I already mentioned, I will
2:19:17revise this throughout the day. I'm
2:19:19like, okay, this task took longer or
2:19:21something came up that was urgent that I
2:19:23needed to do address. Why I like Cal's
2:19:26uh notebook, too, is cuz there's
2:19:27different columns for that. You can you
2:19:28can change it as you go.
2:19:30Essentially, though, what the the goal
2:19:31is is to plan out your day ahead of time
2:19:34so that you um have something to aim at
2:19:37and say, you know, I'm working on this.
2:19:39I'm Am I doing what I said I was going
2:19:41to do?
2:19:41Yeah.
2:19:42It's kind of like a an internal
2:19:43accountability system a little bit.
2:19:46Um
2:19:47And again, it also just keeps you very
2:19:49realistic. Like, you know, you have
2:19:51an 8-hour to 10-hour work day every day.
2:19:53What can you honestly get done in that?
2:19:55And then um it also for me, anyway, too,
2:19:57it does give me that, okay, I actually
2:19:59did get something done. This is what I I
2:20:00can look back at it and say I used this
2:20:02time block to
2:20:03uh, to actually get done what I said I
2:20:05was going to get done.
2:20:05Okay.
2:20:06So, I use a combination of to-do lists
2:20:07and and time boxing. Uh, I use a
2:20:10calendar, too, obviously. We have, uh, a
2:20:12shared calendar with the team. I also
2:20:14have my own personal calendar. I look at
2:20:15that pretty much every day, what do I
2:20:17got going on, any events. I got dinner
2:20:19with friends, I'll put that in there,
2:20:21you know, that kind of thing. Just kind
2:20:22of keep me, these are the things that I
2:20:23know I have to get done today. That
2:20:25that's what I put in the calendar. But,
2:20:26to-do lists is more just like these need
2:20:28to be done at some point. The time box
2:20:30is what am I doing right now. That's
2:20:31kind of my system.
2:20:32Do you have any sort of like rules or
2:20:34principles do you do you like do the
2:20:35hardest thing first in the morning? Do
2:20:37you like do easy things in the morning?
2:20:39Like
2:20:39So, I I try to uh, I I am a big fan of
2:20:42Cal, of Cal Newport. Um, and uh, I do
2:20:46try to get I
2:20:47get deep work in every day, what he
2:20:48calls deep work. If you don't know, go
2:20:50read his book, Deep Work. It's
2:20:51fantastic. Um, I try to get that done
2:20:54and for me it's mornings. For most
2:20:55people it's going to be mornings. Um, so
2:20:57usually I try to schedule about 2 hours
2:20:59of deep work in in the mornings where
2:21:01I'm getting like, okay, this is
2:21:02something that's going to require a lot
2:21:04of my attention and focus. So, I'm going
2:21:06to sit down and uh, for 2 hours, usually
2:21:09from like 8:00 to 10:00 um, or something
2:21:11like that. I usually get up around 6:30
2:21:13or 7:00, do, you know, I'll read, I'll
2:21:16kind of get warmed up for the day and
2:21:17then I start working around 8:00-ish,
2:21:187:30-ish. Try to get my 2 hours of deep
2:21:21work in. Um, and that is usually the
2:21:23hardest
2:21:24Yeah.
2:21:24that I have to do for the day. And
2:21:26honestly, if I get those done, that's
2:21:27like a win for the day, too. You know
2:21:29what I mean? Like if I get 2 solid hours
2:21:31of deep work, I mean, there's all sorts
2:21:32of other tasks that are important that I
2:21:33need to do that I will get done. But, if
2:21:35I get those 2 hours in, I I feel pretty
2:21:37accomplished. Yeah.
2:21:39Yeah.
2:21:40So, I again, that's a realistic
2:21:42expectation. You can get about 2 to 3 to
2:21:44maybe 4 hours of real deep solid work in
2:21:46if you're in a knowledge work industry.
2:21:49Yeah.
2:21:49Yeah.
2:21:50And for those listening who haven't read
2:21:51the book like deep work is generally
2:21:53something that requires intensive
2:21:55creativity or problem solving. Right. So
2:21:58something that takes like a lot of
2:21:59mental energy and effort like you know
2:22:01writing an article or programming or you
2:22:04know whatever design something like
2:22:05that. Like generally we kind of max out
2:22:07at three to four hours a day. Right.
2:22:09Intense research you know stuff like
2:22:10that. Yeah.
2:22:11Yeah. That sounds very
2:22:12I think that's it. Like I said though
2:22:14what the other principle I have is just
2:22:16keep it as simple as possible
2:22:17as soon as I add any sort of
2:22:20complexity to it and all I just I don't
2:22:22So no Pomodoro no like break times.
2:22:26No I mean I will schedule in with my
2:22:28time boxing I'll schedule in
2:22:30breaks
2:22:30breaks sometimes what I call flex and
2:22:32just like I just I know I just need a
2:22:34bunch of stuff I need to get done and
2:22:35I'll put like a 30 minute box it's just
2:22:37called flex and I
2:22:38do whatever I need to get done in that
2:22:39time.
2:22:40Yeah.
2:22:40But I don't do no I don't get hardcore
2:22:42on the Pomodoro or the
2:22:44um
2:22:45Pomodoro never worked for me.
2:22:47never quite got that one.
2:22:48Yeah. Man sometimes I wonder if somebody
2:22:51just made that up.
2:22:52[laughter]
2:22:53I wonder that with a lot of things.
2:22:56If it works for you great but yeah.
2:22:58Yeah sure try it whatever.
2:23:00What's your ADHD
2:23:02Ritalin
2:23:03[laughter]
2:23:05system look like Mark if you could call
2:23:07it that.
2:23:08So okay I would divide it up into two
2:23:11kind of classes of work. So
2:23:14for deep work I would say it's not very
2:23:16different which is I try to block off X
2:23:20number of hours
2:23:22eliminate as many distractions as
2:23:23possible. You know I used to use
2:23:25software that would block things like
2:23:26social media and you know
2:23:28sports websites and stuff like that. I I
2:23:31I did that for a number of years and it
2:23:32was very helpful especially when I was
2:23:34writing a bunch of books.
2:23:35These days I don't do it as much. I kind
2:23:37of I'll let myself if I kind of feel the
2:23:39need to get distracted for a little bit
2:23:41mentally I'll I'll let myself do that.
2:23:43The biggest difference Um, this is where
2:23:46the ADHD comes in This is And this is
2:23:48what's going to sound crazy to people
2:23:50and also I think is a good case study of
2:23:52of like how productivity is just very
2:23:55personal and it
2:23:57what works for you may be something that
2:23:59like does not work for any productivity
2:24:02guru out there.
2:24:03That should be the highlight of the
2:24:04section actually.
2:24:05Absolutely. As we're going through the
2:24:06all these details
2:24:07Absolutely. That's the highlight of the
2:24:08section.
2:24:09As somebody with ADHD um my brain kind
2:24:12of has a disproportionate need for
2:24:14novelty. I actually I wouldn't say need,
2:24:16I would say a disproportionate
2:24:17susceptibility to novelty. Like it gets
2:24:20bored extremely easily and it gets
2:24:22excited by something shiny very quickly
2:24:25and very like very strongly. What I
2:24:27noticed and I noticed this as far back
2:24:29as when I was in university
2:24:31is that
2:24:32to a certain extent and if it's not deep
2:24:35work
2:24:36task switching actually works in my
2:24:38favor. I wouldn't call it multitasking
2:24:40cuz I don't I never do two things at the
2:24:42same time but I'll give a a simple
2:24:43example
2:24:44which is
2:24:46I had a university lecture that I used
2:24:48to go to and without fail I would fall
2:24:50asleep every single time.
2:24:52And I would have to like end up asking
2:24:54my friend for her notes and I would like
2:24:57scramble and freak out and have to like
2:24:58go read the textbook, you know, two days
2:25:00before the the exam and
2:25:03it was a disaster and then at some point
2:25:05I don't remember when or how uh I
2:25:07started picking up Sudokus and crossword
2:25:09puzzles
2:25:10from the student union and I would take
2:25:12them to this lecture and I found that if
2:25:14I like sat there and did Sudokus while
2:25:17the guy was lecturing I not only did I
2:25:19stay awake the entire time but I paid
2:25:21attention to the entire lecture.
2:25:23That [snorts] makes no sense.
2:25:24I mean I know that makes no sense. That
2:25:26makes no sense.
2:25:27I didn't understand this for the longest
2:25:29time and it it's true to this day. So
2:25:31like sometimes when I'm like
2:25:34listening to somebody give a talk or
2:25:36even if I like pull up a podcast or
2:25:38something. Like I can't just sit and
2:25:39listen to a podcast. I have to like open
2:25:41up like a game on my phone. And if I
2:25:43have the game going on my phone, then I
2:25:44can pay attention to the podcast.
2:25:46I know.
2:25:47Yeah. You are weird, man.
2:25:50But it's You know what it is? So, this
2:25:53is what I figured out. It took me a long
2:25:55time to figure this out, but it's
2:25:57So, it's not multitasking. I thought it
2:25:59was that for a long time.
2:26:01What it is is is it's task switching or
2:26:03it's like I guess
2:26:05cognitive switching. Let's go back to
2:26:07the crossword in the the college
2:26:08lecture. So,
2:26:10I'm in the I'm in the the classroom. I'm
2:26:12listening to the professor
2:26:14lecture. I pay attention, let's say I
2:26:16make it 5 6 minutes. My brain starts
2:26:18getting bored. And as an person with
2:26:20ADHD, when I start to get bored, it's
2:26:22like I'm really bored.
2:26:24And
2:26:25when I have the Sudoku there, I'm like,
2:26:27cool, switch to the Sudoku. And I start
2:26:29doing the Sudo- Sudoku.
2:26:31And while I'm doing the Sudoku, I'm like
2:26:32kind of passively listening and hearing
2:26:35him in the background.
2:26:37And then after a few minutes, when he
2:26:39says something interesting, I'm like,
2:26:41ooh, that's shiny and new. Hey, look,
2:26:44novelty. Go back to the lecture. And so,
2:26:47now I'm back in the lecture for another
2:26:485 or 6 minutes. And then when the
2:26:49lecture starts to get boring again,
2:26:52I can like use the Sudoku to keep the
2:26:54novelty
2:26:56engine going in my brain so that I never
2:26:58just shut down and go to sleep.
2:27:01And
2:27:02I I bring all of this up because I do
2:27:05this every day.
2:27:06Yeah.
2:27:07In my actual day-to-day
2:27:08you do this, yes.
2:27:10And as you know, I'm I am strangely
2:27:12somehow extremely productive. So,
2:27:14anything that is not deep work, I will
2:27:16very intentionally do this. Like, we
2:27:18took a break between shooting this.
2:27:21We were out in the office.
2:27:24We're talking about this podcast. While
2:27:26we're talking about it, I am looking at
2:27:29the design for
2:27:31podcast covers
2:27:33and fonts
2:27:34for the website and thinking about
2:27:37feedback that I'm going to give from all
2:27:38that and it I'm doing the exact same
2:27:40thing. So, it's like you know, while you
2:27:42and Jess are talking, as soon as that's
2:27:44that conversation starts to get boring,
2:27:46I look at the designs and start thinking
2:27:47about the designs. And then as soon as I
2:27:49hear one of you say something
2:27:50interesting, I like stop looking at the
2:27:52designs and I go back to the
2:27:53conversation and it keeps the novelty
2:27:55engine going in my brain. So, anybody
2:27:56listening to this with ADHD, the thing
2:27:59to know is that
2:28:01you you have this kind of constant
2:28:03disproportionate craving for novelty,
2:28:05for new [clears throat] stimulus. And if
2:28:07you don't feed your brain that stimulus
2:28:10uh you you shut down essentially. Like
2:28:13you just lose interest completely and
2:28:16in my case go to sleep. If you can find
2:28:18productive ways to feed yourself that
2:28:20stimulus, if you can In In my case, it's
2:28:22kind of task pairing things.
2:28:25So, uh it's like if I have to do
2:28:27something extremely boring like check
2:28:30like go through my inbox and clear it
2:28:32out,
2:28:33then I will just pair that with
2:28:34something else I need to do, right?
2:28:36Which is like I don't know, have a
2:28:37meeting about like a production meeting
2:28:39for the YouTube channel, right? And I'll
2:28:41just kind of casually like flick through
2:28:43the emails while people are talking.
2:28:46And I'm not being rude.
2:28:47Yeah, I know. I know exactly when that
2:28:48happens, yeah.
2:28:50I am paying attention, but it gets uh it
2:28:52helps me get everything done cuz it it's
2:28:54like if I just tried to do the email and
2:28:55nothing but the email, it would never
2:28:57get done. I would get bored and I'd
2:28:58start watching YouTube after 10 emails.
2:29:01And if I just did the meeting and I
2:29:02tried to
2:29:03pay attention through the meeting, I
2:29:05would get bored and I would like zone
2:29:06out and probably start watching YouTube
2:29:08videos. So, it's
2:29:09Okay.
2:29:10by pairing them together. And this is
2:29:13So, we have not talked about something
2:29:14yet,
2:29:15which you and I I think it's like the
2:29:17main thing on this episode that you and
2:29:19I disagree on.
2:29:20Okay.
2:29:22And it's probably because of this.
2:29:24It which is the active procrastination.
2:29:26There is something in the research
2:29:29called active procrastination.
2:29:30Mhm. Big debate over it, actually. Yes,
2:29:33which
2:29:34I personally call my wife and I we we
2:29:36lovingly call it productive
2:29:38procrastination.
2:29:39Yes, that's common, yeah.
2:29:40[laughter]
2:29:40Yeah.
2:29:41[gasps]
2:29:42Which is essentially this. It's like
2:29:43let's say you have a big hairy task
2:29:45that's really intimidating and scary and
2:29:46so you're you're putting it off. Uh
2:29:48well, one way to get it done is to go
2:29:51find an even bigger hairier task that's
2:29:53even more scary than that one and then
2:29:55procrastinate by doing the less scary
2:29:57task that you've been putting off,
2:29:58right? So, it's like simple example is
2:30:01you've been meaning to clean the garage
2:30:02for months and
2:30:05you know, you just keep putting it off.
2:30:07But then suddenly it's uh
2:30:09you know,
2:30:10you need to go buy a new car and that's
2:30:14terrifying and you're really anxious
2:30:16about it.
2:30:18So, you put it off like so it's
2:30:19Saturday, you're supposed to go to the
2:30:20lot, you're supposed to go look at the
2:30:21cars and instead of doing that, you
2:30:23decide, you know what? It's time to
2:30:25clean the garage.
2:30:26Okay.
2:30:26And so [snorts] you spend the entire
2:30:27Saturday cleaning the garage. Now, on
2:30:28the one hand, you just put off a really
2:30:30important task. On the other hand, you
2:30:33finally clean the damn garage.
2:30:35[laughter]
2:30:36And as somebody with ADHD, I feel like
2:30:38my entire life is this. It's just like
2:30:40[clears throat]
2:30:41finding like here's the task I'm
2:30:43supposed to do. Here's my level of
2:30:44intimidation with it.
2:30:46What is something I can find that is is
2:30:48more or less intimidating than this
2:30:51to either do instead or to force me to
2:30:53do this, right? And it's just like this
2:30:55constant negotiation with my own brain.
2:30:57Like you, I do have a to-do list. I
2:30:59don't time box because as you can
2:31:01imagine,
2:31:01Yeah, that's
2:31:02my life is chaos and
2:31:05the time boxes are completely useless.
2:31:07If you're going to be task switch
2:31:08switching, that's yeah, that's useless.
2:31:10It's And it's not just that, but it's
2:31:11also like given, you know, my role in
2:31:13the business, like my days are
2:31:16crazy. Like it's there's so much
2:31:18unexpected stuff that happens throughout
2:31:20the day. So, yeah, time boxing just goes
2:31:22out the window. But
2:31:24I do do to-do lists
2:31:26and task lists and I I'm actually like
2:31:29quite religious about it because I think
2:31:31it's the only thing that keeps me like
2:31:32tethered and like streamlined cuz
2:31:34otherwise I just forget stuff.
2:31:36But outside of that, I don't do a whole
2:31:39lot else. The other thing that I do that
2:31:43is strange about me that's different.
2:31:45You know, the conventional wisdom is
2:31:46always like knock out the most difficult
2:31:48task of the day first. That goes all the
2:31:50way back to Ben Franklin. There was a
2:31:52best-selling book in the '80s called Eat
2:31:53That Frog. That
2:31:55crazy crazy
2:31:56It was basically it's one of those like
2:31:58books that should have been a blog post.
2:31:59Like the entire book is just like do the
2:32:01most important thing. Eat the frog first
2:32:03thing in the morning and then you like
2:32:04like you said, you feel it feels like a
2:32:05win for the rest of the day.
2:32:07I can't do that.
2:32:08Yeah.
2:32:08Like I got
2:32:09You need to do some warm up or
2:32:10Yeah, my brain it feels like my brain
2:32:11needs warm up. So I I usually actually
2:32:14do the the the least important stuff
2:32:17first thing in the morning.
2:32:18I love mornings. It's one of my my
2:32:20morning routine is literally wake up,
2:32:22grab an energy drink, and sit down at my
2:32:25desk and start working like within 100
2:32:29100 seconds of waking up.
2:32:30Oh, wow.
2:32:30So it's
2:32:31Woah, wow. Really?
2:32:32Yeah, I don't do anything. I don't I
2:32:34don't stretch. I don't meditate. I don't
2:32:36walk. I don't I I literally wake up,
2:32:38walk to my desk, start working.
2:32:40Okay.
2:32:41But I need to start with like low impact
2:32:45work. So it's like usually first thing
2:32:46in the morning is email.
2:32:48Then I catch up on Slack messages.
2:32:51And then usually by then it's been like
2:32:5230 40 minutes. Um and my brain's like
2:32:55functioning and I can start kind of
2:32:56doing creative stuff. Um
2:32:59and then I'll I'll and if anything is
2:33:01kind of intensive and creative and I
2:33:02need to like dedicate more than a couple
2:33:04hours to it, then I'll like do the deep
2:33:05work thing where I'm like, okay,
2:33:07close all the windows, close all the
2:33:08tabs, put the phone on the other side of
2:33:11the room and like now we're locked in.
2:33:12We're writing a script or we're writing
2:33:14an email or whatever.
2:33:16That's kind of it.
2:33:16Yeah. Okay.
2:33:17That's it.
2:33:18Well, okay, what it sounds like is you
2:33:20have figured out a way to leverage your
2:33:21impulsivity.
2:33:22Yes.
2:33:23Uh which I think is is probably useful
2:33:25for people even if they don't have ADHD
2:33:26if they're just an impulsive person. And
2:33:28I consider myself to be impulsive at
2:33:29times too.
2:33:31Um and I I've heard you talk about that
2:33:32before where um to your your task
2:33:35switching, cognitive switching,
2:33:36whatever. And I've experimented with it
2:33:38in recent weeks as well. And yes, every
2:33:40now and then like if I am getting bored
2:33:42with something, I'm like, "Okay, I need
2:33:43I need just need a a jolt of novelty."
2:33:45And I don't have any ADHD.
2:33:46Yeah.
2:33:47Um so I think that could be useful um
2:33:49for for a lot of people.
2:33:50The important thing I think is going
2:33:52back. Like
2:33:53Yeah, yes.
2:33:54When I talk to ADHD people who
2:33:57who are dysfunctional, they do the task
2:34:00switching thing,
2:34:01but then they'll just leave six things
2:34:02half completed and they never go back
2:34:04and complete it. And so like
2:34:07and this is where the to-do list come in
2:34:09that I'm like religious with my to-do
2:34:10list because it's like
2:34:12I I
2:34:14Yeah, you have to go back. You have to
2:34:17go back.
2:34:17so that's what when you talk about the
2:34:19productive procrastination.
2:34:20Mhm.
2:34:21I think that's the point where I get um
2:34:24a little sticky with it because
2:34:26um it's so easy for me like if my if my
2:34:30house is a disaster, I've been
2:34:32procrastinating, putting off, but I got
2:34:33some work tasks I need to do. I'm like,
2:34:35"Ah, time to clean the house now." And
2:34:37I'll go do that. And then 2 hours go by
2:34:39and I got a hell of a clean house, but I
2:34:41I'm nowhere closer to working on what I
2:34:42want to work on. I think this is where
2:34:44you just have to be very very careful
2:34:45with.
2:34:46Yes.
2:34:46Yeah.
2:34:46If the task should probably be in the
2:34:48same domain, ideally, right?
2:34:50of yeah. I mean, you're sure like, "I'm
2:34:51going to do something completely
2:34:53different." Yeah.
2:34:53It's It's like if
2:34:55if I was supposed to prepare for this
2:34:56podcast and instead I like decide to go
2:34:58mow my lawn, like that's useless.
2:35:00Right. Okay.
2:35:01Whereas if it's like, you know, I should
2:35:02be preparing for the podcast,
2:35:05but maybe instead what I'll do is I'll
2:35:06like start doing research for the next
2:35:08podcast.
2:35:09Like that's what I try to do cuz then
2:35:10it's like, "Okay, at least that's like
2:35:12adjacent to what I should be working
2:35:13on."
2:35:14Even emails So, that point, yeah.
2:35:15Right. Okay.
2:35:16And the idea too, that the whole the
2:35:18importance of coming back to the thing
2:35:20and finishing it, it's like let's say I
2:35:22start
2:35:23you know, prepping for this podcast. I
2:35:24get bored halfway through, so I start
2:35:26doing another thing.
2:35:27What I do is I wait for the moment that
2:35:30the initial task starts to feel novel
2:35:32again. It's like, oh yeah, I was
2:35:34prepping for the podcast this morning
2:35:36and now it's 6 hours later and
2:35:38yeah, I should go finish that. That
2:35:39sounds kind of interesting actually. I
2:35:41was in like I was at a really
2:35:42interesting place with that. So, it it's
2:35:44like
2:35:45tricking your brain into finding old
2:35:47things to feel new again.
2:35:49Yeah.
2:35:50If that makes sense.
2:35:51That does make sense. No, I I found the
2:35:52same thing, too.
2:35:53We've been working on this particular
2:35:56episode for so long that I got
2:35:57procrastinating this one.
2:35:59I'm just like, oh my god, I cannot with
2:36:01procrastination anymore. I've read these
2:36:02studies or whatever it's so many times
2:36:04or whatever. And if I just put it away
2:36:05for a week or whatever and came back to
2:36:07it, I'm like, boom, there's all this
2:36:08novelty to it again.
2:36:09novel again.
2:36:09Yeah. Yeah.
2:36:11Yeah.
2:36:11The big takeaway here though, is not to
2:36:13get caught up on what we do, because you
2:36:15and I have very different systems. We we
2:36:17have except for the to-do list, I think
2:36:18we we have pretty different systems. And
2:36:19I try not to work on too many things at
2:36:21once, where where you
2:36:22leverage that in your favor.
2:36:23I need to work on a lot of things at
2:36:25once, yeah.
2:36:25The the key takeaway here is just you
2:36:28can try these things out, figure out
2:36:29what works for you,
2:36:31pick, choose, borrow. That's great.
2:36:33Yeah.
2:36:34But, this is not going to solve your
2:36:36procrastination [laughter] problem. This
2:36:38is only after you're self-aware enough,
2:36:40right, of of why you procrastinate in
2:36:42the first place, that these things
2:36:43actually will work.
2:36:44Yeah.
2:36:45Yeah.
2:36:45Let's move on to another
2:36:47mid-century school of thought. This one
2:36:49that went completely under the radar
2:36:52in the productivity space and is
2:36:53actually one of the most effective
2:36:56things when it comes to dealing with
2:36:58procrastination and productivity, and
2:36:59that is purpose. This doesn't get talked
2:37:01about. In fact, we almost missed this.
2:37:03Yeah.
2:37:04This was a late addition to our our
2:37:06guide and our outline.
2:37:07Mhm.
2:37:08I was I was kind of I was embarrassed
2:37:10actually when you brought it up. You're
2:37:10like, "Why aren't we talking about
2:37:12purpose?" I'm like, "Oh god." I
2:37:14[laughter] was like,
2:37:14it was a huge face palm for me.
2:37:17Yeah, this is the fascinating thing is
2:37:19like
2:37:20so much has been written on time
2:37:21management. There's not a single person
2:37:24in the corporate world that is like you
2:37:26know, walking around cubicles like
2:37:28reminding people of their purpose.
2:37:30Yet, when you look at the research, this
2:37:32is like one of the most important things
2:37:34is that people feel a sense of meaning
2:37:35and purpose in the work that they're
2:37:35doing. Right? Like, if if you feel like
2:37:38your work is meaningful, you're much
2:37:40less likely to delay doing it. Right?
2:37:40Cuz it aligns with your values. It
2:37:42you're much less likely to delay doing
2:37:44it. Right? Cuz it aligns with your
2:37:46values. It feels important. It feels
2:37:48useful. So,
2:37:49this actually comes out of I'm not going
2:37:51to harp on it for too long, but like
2:37:53it comes out of the mid-century
2:37:54existentialist movement, right? Which is
2:37:57just wonderful and and bleak and French.
2:38:01And [laughter]
2:38:02that they they basically said like, you
2:38:04know, they they start with nihilism,
2:38:06which is like nothing means anything.
2:38:08After gray start.
2:38:09We're all just a bunch of dirt and atoms
2:38:11and and we're all going to die and
2:38:13there's nothing you can do to stop it.
2:38:15But, from there
2:38:17they make a very important leap, which
2:38:19is that
2:38:20you know, meaning and purpose is not
2:38:21preordained.
2:38:23So, Jean-Paul Sartre had this great
2:38:24saying where he said, "Existence
2:38:26precedes essence." Which is actually
2:38:28taking Plato and flipping it on its head
2:38:30because Plato said, "Productivity is a a
2:38:33form, a concept that we try to live up
2:38:36to and whether we are exist or not,
2:38:38productivity always is always there and
2:38:41it's it's just a question of whether you
2:38:42embody it or not. Sartre's like, "No,
2:38:44dude, that. Like, you get to decide
2:38:47what productivity is. You get to decide
2:38:48if it's even worth pursuing at all. You
2:38:51get to decide if it's meaningful."
2:38:53Existence precedes essence. That
2:38:54basically meaning is constructed after
2:38:56the fact. That essentially like we are
2:38:58all writing our own stories and we are
2:39:00all deciding what is useful and
2:39:02meaningful and what is not. And
2:39:05it's a simple idea. It's incredibly
2:39:07profound. I think it's it's most
2:39:09popularized
2:39:10from the experiences of Victor Frankl.
2:39:13In his book Man's Search for Meaning, he
2:39:14wrote about his experiences surviving
2:39:16the Holocaust and he talks about how,
2:39:18you know, it's a sense of hope and
2:39:19purpose for the future that
2:39:22not only drove him to survival, but like
2:39:25he noticed among the other prisoners was
2:39:27kind of the deciding factor of their
2:39:29fates as well. And so you get kind of
2:39:30this
2:39:31this whole philosophical movement
2:39:33through the '60s and '70s of just really
2:39:37thinking and paying attention to the
2:39:39meaning that's being described to
2:39:40certain behaviors or functions or
2:39:43or groups or relationships. And
2:39:46strangely, it's funny cuz
2:39:47existentialism, I mean, it was
2:39:49everywhere. It was in culture, it was in
2:39:51art, it was in film, it was in politics.
2:39:55Um
2:39:56it never made its way into the business
2:39:58world. Which is funny because when you
2:40:01look at the research on
2:40:04productivity and procrastination as an
2:40:06extension, people who feel a sense of
2:40:09meaning and purpose in their work,
2:40:11they're more productive, they're more
2:40:12resilient to setbacks, they're more
2:40:14willing to take risks, they're more
2:40:16willing to hear feedback, and they they
2:40:19procrastinate less. And so it's just
2:40:21like
2:40:22it's so stupidly simple,
2:40:25but it is worth considering,
2:40:27why am I doing this?
2:40:29Right. [laughter]
2:40:29Like, why do I care?
2:40:31Well, do you think it didn't make its
2:40:32way into the say corporate culture
2:40:34because
2:40:36it's almost
2:40:38it's almost antithetical to a lot of
2:40:40corporate culture because it's it's kind
2:40:42of hard I think most people would kind
2:40:46of see what's going on there. If you
2:40:47brought a consultant in to say, "Okay,
2:40:49we're here today and from 8:00 to noon,
2:40:52we're going to talk about your purpose
2:40:53here in this corporate setting." And
2:40:55people would be like, "Wait a second,
2:40:57what?" I will Okay, let me back out. Or
2:40:59is that too cynical, I guess, yeah.
2:41:01That is pretty cynical.
2:41:02Yeah.
2:41:03I would also say that it did make its
2:41:04way into the corporate world. It just
2:41:06took about 50 years. I would say with
2:41:08our generation
2:41:09Ah, okay, yeah.
2:41:10With it I would say really just in the
2:41:11last 20 25 years. Like really the
2:41:13millennials and Gen Z. Like if you if
2:41:15And I remember seeing uh survey data
2:41:17around this years ago of like
2:41:20one of the big things about the
2:41:22millennial generation is like they like
2:41:23millennials really gave a about
2:41:26what they did for a living. They needed
2:41:26to feel like
2:41:27what they did for a living. Like they
2:41:28needed to feel like their job was
2:41:31contributing value to the world in some
2:41:33way and they weren't they weren't
2:41:35satisfied just, you know, getting a
2:41:36paycheck. And that's a relatively new
2:41:39thing throughout history. Like it's a I
2:41:41would say it's actually a very
2:41:42privileged thing
2:41:44in history. But it's also uh
2:41:48I mean it it it is purpose is is
2:41:50productive, right? Like it's
2:41:53And if you look at all of the businesses
2:41:55and companies over the last 20 years,
2:41:56like they really push some sort of
2:42:00social value or uh cause or mission
2:42:03behind whatever they're doing. You know,
2:42:05everything from like like then Nike
2:42:08commercial like focusing on female
2:42:10athletes or um Apple being the first to
2:42:14pioneer like recycling electronics and
2:42:17like there's just so many examples from
2:42:19the last 20 years of of large
2:42:20corporations who have like adopted
2:42:22specific missions, certain meanings,
2:42:24aligning themselves with certain
2:42:26political causes. And it's like very
2:42:28much like it's not an accident. It's
2:42:30more profitable, right? Like it's it's
2:42:32like we want to we want our employees to
2:42:34feel like they're doing something
2:42:35important and worthwhile. Um and because
2:42:39when you feel like you're doing
2:42:40something important and worthwhile
2:42:42you work harder.
2:42:43Yeah.
2:42:43And you around less. And you're
2:42:46willing to to
2:42:48make mistakes and and embarrass yourself
2:42:51because it's for some higher cause. You
2:42:52know who's the master of this?
2:42:54Elon Musk.
2:42:56Oh.
2:42:57Like think about it, dude. Like, if
2:42:58you're an engineer interested in space,
2:43:00what feels more important than taking
2:43:03humanity to Mars? Right? Right?
2:43:05Like, if you're an aeronautical engineer
2:43:08and you hear that, like, you're 25 and
2:43:09you hear that, you're like, "Whatever,
2:43:11dude. I'm all in. Like, tell me what to
2:43:13do.
2:43:14I will grind all day, all night.
2:43:17I will work my ass off. You know, Tesla,
2:43:19you know,
2:43:20climate change and yeah.
2:43:21bringing bringing the renewable economy,
2:43:23you know, into America.
2:43:25It is
2:43:27it really is a superpower.
2:43:28Right.
2:43:28And it is a real I think it's an
2:43:30overlooked talent of Elon's of like
2:43:33finding these kind of
2:43:35almost like civil- civilizationally
2:43:38important causes to align his companies
2:43:41with.
2:43:43Uh you're seeing it now with with the AI
2:43:45stuff. Like, he's he's pushing this
2:43:47narrative of like, "We need an AI that's
2:43:50aligned with with uh valuing human life,
2:43:53or else like, we could all go extinct."
2:43:56Um
2:43:57it is absolutely existential. It is
2:44:01existentialism, you know, just in
2:44:03corporate form. So, it is um
2:44:05Okay.
2:44:06It is a super overlooked thing. And it
2:44:08and and I understand why
2:44:11it it it feels hand-wavy and clich-
2:44:13there's like there are a lot of clichés
2:44:15around it, but it is a thing. And I
2:44:18think to bring it back home to people
2:44:20listening to this who are struggling
2:44:22just to like, you know,
2:44:23eat healthy or
2:44:25apply for that job that they want or
2:44:26whatever, like, really ask yourself, why
2:44:29do you want it? I'd say what I notice
2:44:31the most often is that people who are
2:44:32primarily motivated to do things
2:44:35not because they actually care about the
2:44:37thing, but because they care about the
2:44:39attention or the result the thing will
2:44:41get them, those are the people who who
2:44:43lose motivation very quickly, right?
2:44:45Like, if you're doing something for the
2:44:47approval of others, that is not a sticky
2:44:49motivation. Like, that is a very
2:44:51short-term motivation.
2:44:53Uh so you're not going to stick through
2:44:55all the challenges and setbacks and
2:44:57failures and you know, false starts.
2:44:59Whereas if you actually really believe
2:45:01in in a higher like a like a higher
2:45:03meaning or purpose around something,
2:45:05um
2:45:06then you will have that patience. You
2:45:08will have that resilience and you will
2:45:09stick with it even if you you don't get
2:45:11it right the first or second time. What
2:45:13do you think too though about you're
2:45:16you're talking about purpose kind of in
2:45:17a grander sense and a um you have this
2:45:20higher grand purpose that that aiming
2:45:23for whether it is somebody like Elon
2:45:25Musk and they're
2:45:26um it his grand designs that he has on
2:45:29humanity, I guess.
2:45:30Right.
2:45:32Is that overcomplicating it so too
2:45:34though for some people cuz we can't all
2:45:35have those jobs, right? So
2:45:37what I'm thinking of is
2:45:39I think a lot more
2:45:42jobs and work in general had it just an
2:45:45inherent purpose tied to them and it was
2:45:46usually taking care of your family.
2:45:48Yes. Like so a miserable job, you could
2:45:50be shoveling
2:45:51Yeah.
2:45:52And you could say, "Ah, this is a
2:45:53meaningless job. I'm shoveling shit." Or
2:45:55you could say, "This job allows me to
2:45:58put food on the table for my family or
2:46:00you know, whatever it is." Another
2:46:02example, I had a friend
2:46:04who wanted to start his own business. He
2:46:05was he had a you know, pretty decent
2:46:07corporate job that he had and didn't
2:46:09really like it though and there was no
2:46:10purpose behind it. But he wanted to
2:46:11start this business and as soon as he
2:46:13decided, "I'm going to start this
2:46:14business."
2:46:16the job that his corporate job actually
2:46:18took on a new meaning because he needed
2:46:19the money from that corporate job.
2:46:20Interesting.
2:46:21the connections and he needed so he
2:46:24started to like his job more
2:46:26[laughter]
2:46:26because there was a new purpose around
2:46:28it which is insane and it wasn't some
2:46:30high pie in the sky purpose that he had.
2:46:32It was more just like
2:46:34I mean it is treating it as a means to
2:46:35an end but there was a a bigger purpose
2:46:37behind that means to an end if that
2:46:39makes sense. So um
2:46:41I think there's just a way to
2:46:43you know, not we don't all have to to
2:46:46uh engineers for uh space or NASA or
2:46:48whatever to find that purpose and to
2:46:51motivate us and to not procrastinate on
2:46:53these things.
2:46:53Yeah, there you you don't need these
2:46:55civilizational
2:46:57cataclysmic existential reasons.
2:47:00It's interesting. I was talking to a guy
2:47:02recently, you know, we did a
2:47:05a podcast an old podcast episode last
2:47:07year on my my health journey and I in
2:47:10that episode I talked about how
2:47:13it was
2:47:14really important for me to find a way to
2:47:16make exercise fun. Like that was one of
2:47:17my big challenges is that I just I hated
2:47:20doing it and so I I really had to find
2:47:23like gamification or groups or you know
2:47:26competitions or whatever just like keep
2:47:27it interesting for myself.
2:47:29He said it's funny I've worked out
2:47:30religiously for 20 years and I've I've
2:47:33always hated it. Never enjoyed it. I was
2:47:35like wow that's actually
2:47:36Wow.
2:47:36sad.
2:47:37Yeah, well I was like
2:47:38[laughter]
2:47:38I was like first of all sorry.
2:47:41I'm sorry I feel feel a little bad for
2:47:42you. But I was like wow that's actually
2:47:45that that's atypical.
2:47:46Generally when you meet somebody who's
2:47:48like exercised religiously for
2:47:50forever it's it's because they they
2:47:53enjoy it in some way or they found a
2:47:54thing that they enjoyed.
2:47:55And so I asked him I was like well what
2:47:57drives you like why do you keep doing
2:47:59it? And he said oh well you know
2:48:01everybody everybody in my family dies
2:48:03super early and as soon as my kids were
2:48:06born I was absolutely determined that I
2:48:07was not going to die early. I was going
2:48:09to I was going to live to an old age and
2:48:11I was going to see him grow up and I was
2:48:12going to see my grandkids. And I was
2:48:14like
2:48:15There you go.
2:48:16There you go. Yeah [laughter] yeah it's
2:48:17like it doesn't need to be fun.
2:48:18actually hate it probably at some level.
2:48:20Exactly.
2:48:20On a deeper level you didn't hate it.
2:48:21Right. And I I think that's
2:48:24that is the power of of finding some
2:48:26sort of purpose in in something is that
2:48:28it it makes
2:48:31like the suffering in anything is going
2:48:33to be inevitable. You know, we've talked
2:48:34a lot in this episode about
2:48:36the pleasure principle and avoiding
2:48:38pain.
2:48:39To me it's like purpose is the one if
2:48:42there is a hack it's the one hack there
2:48:44is because it's purpose is the only
2:48:46thing that can take pain
2:48:49and make it
2:48:50feel worthwhile.
2:48:51Right. Yeah.
2:48:52Right? And it like it can make you feel
2:48:55like okay that sucked but
2:48:58I'm glad I did it.
2:48:59Going back to the Goggins thing too I
2:49:01think that's that's I think that's
2:49:03actually what's going on
2:49:04with him is there there's just a higher
2:49:06purpose to his pain.
2:49:07Totally.
2:49:07What do you think too about though
2:49:10if you
2:49:11if you do start out kind of at a
2:49:15a not very good reason or not very good
2:49:17purpose for something. I I'll give you
2:49:18an example like I've always been fairly
2:49:21healthy but you know
2:49:22like you over the last few years I've
2:49:24focused more on my health and I started
2:49:25out was I just I just want to look good.
2:49:27That's I was it was a vanity purely.
2:49:29It's it switched to a a bigger purpose
2:49:31though. I like
2:49:33I was just telling you a little while
2:49:34ago about an great uncle that I had who
2:49:36in his 80s was able to like spread his
2:49:39legs and bend down and get put his head
2:49:41on the floor like he could stretch
2:49:43insanely and he was skiing in his 80s
2:49:45and all of that and I'm like well
2:49:47I want to be able to do that. I want I
2:49:48and I want to be able to live a healthy
2:49:50life when I'm older now. It's very much
2:49:51switched to that but it started out as a
2:49:54a very vain purpose. I
2:49:56some jobs can start out that way too.
2:49:58This is a just a means to an end
2:50:00pay my rent and then it turns into
2:50:02something
2:50:03bigger later on too. Are there examples
2:50:05of that that you can think of in your
2:50:06own life or
2:50:08what's going on when that happens I
2:50:09don't know.
2:50:10I mean this career started out that way.
2:50:13Like I I I was I read Tim Ferriss's Four
2:50:16Hour Work Week and I was like I just
2:50:17want to make some money on the internet
2:50:19so I can go party in Argentina. Like
2:50:20that's
2:50:21That was the dream by the way.
2:50:22That was [laughter] like literally the
2:50:24my entire bar. It was like 2000s man
2:50:26they were awesome. If I could just clear
2:50:28that bar [laughter] I'm good. It's so I
2:50:30just started I just started a bunch of
2:50:31websites. Like I didn't really think
2:50:33about it. I didn't care about it and
2:50:35you know eventually as you know one of
2:50:36those websites was a dating advice
2:50:38website, and
2:50:39that started to take off and do pretty
2:50:41well. And
2:50:44and then people started asking me for
2:50:45advice. This was 2007, 2008.
2:50:49And I was like, well, if people
2:50:50are going to ask me for advice, I should
2:50:51probably like know what I'm talking
2:50:52about. So, I started researching all
2:50:54this stuff. I started, you know,
2:50:56buying a bunch of books and downloading
2:50:58psychology papers and reading journals
2:51:01and
2:51:03and pretty soon, next thing I know, I'm
2:51:04like, this is a I could do this forever.
2:51:06Yeah. Like, this is it. I'm
2:51:08I'm so in on this. And
2:51:11I I just feel like that that actually is
2:51:13probably the more common story. I I
2:51:16think this is people's biggest mistake
2:51:17with this, too. And and and I am
2:51:20100% sure we will do an episode on
2:51:21purpose at some point.
2:51:23Uh but it it
2:51:25people mistakenly assume that you find
2:51:28the purpose
2:51:30and then you become super motivated to
2:51:31do all this stuff. Where it's like, no,
2:51:33you do the stuff, and as you do it, you
2:51:36find the things that feel very
2:51:37meaningful and impactful.
2:51:40And then that's where the purpose is.
2:51:41And you know, so again,
2:51:43I guess this might be a little bit like
2:51:45the time management thing, where it's
2:51:46like, if you're trying to go from zero
2:51:47to one, then purpose is probably less of
2:51:50a factor unless there's, I don't know,
2:51:52there's like some major external force,
2:51:54like a
2:51:55a kid's born or something like that.
2:51:57Generally speaking though, it's like you
2:51:59need to have actually be doing
2:52:01something, and then you look for the
2:52:03purpose in the things that you're doing
2:52:04and then and like cuz that's the thing
2:52:05that's going to sustain you over the
2:52:07long run. Like, the the purpose
2:52:09the thing that the purpose solves is
2:52:11going from short-term to long-term.
2:52:12Yeah.
2:52:13It it won't get you from zero to
2:52:14short-term.
2:52:15Okay. Yeah, that makes sense to me. And
2:52:18and checks out. Um where I I have found
2:52:20purpose in all sorts of places I never
2:52:22thought I would have. So, 100% that that
2:52:25checks out.
2:52:25Yeah.
2:52:26Yeah.
2:52:26Yeah. So, just really quick, before we
2:52:28get into the takeaways, I just I remind
2:52:30the listeners that we do have the free
2:52:31downloadable guide that goes along with
2:52:33this episode. Most podcasts put their
2:52:35show notes on the website. Our show
2:52:37notes are so freaking long and thorough,
2:52:41we actually had to turn them into a PDF.
2:52:43The show notes for this episode is over
2:52:4565 pages long. So, if you want to see
2:52:48those show notes including full summary
2:52:50of the episode, all the takeaways, all
2:52:52the research,
2:52:53book recommendations, all the above, go
2:52:56to solvepodcast.com/procrastination
2:52:58to get it.
2:53:04All right, let's let's get back to to
2:53:06the theory and the research. So, like
2:53:07we're at this point we're pushing into
2:53:09the '80s and '90s.
2:53:10Mhm.
2:53:12Everybody realizes the time management
2:53:13stuff doesn't really work.
2:53:16Uh
2:53:16where are we at here? What what what's
2:53:18next?
2:53:19Well, a group of researchers were very
2:53:23observant that the time management was
2:53:24not working. And so, they set out to
2:53:26figure out, "Okay, what is it about
2:53:28procrastination motivation in general
2:53:30that gets people to actually do what
2:53:32they want to do, say what they want to
2:53:34do." One researcher in particular, his
2:53:36name is Piers Steel, who you've already
2:53:38brought up,
2:53:39and he gave us the definition, our our
2:53:41modern definition of procrastination. He
2:53:44also formulated what's called
2:53:46the temporal motivation theory, okay, or
2:53:49TMT for short. I might refer to it as
2:53:50TMT every now and then. Temporal
2:53:52motivation theory.
2:53:53Um
2:53:55essentially what he did he tried to
2:53:57marry a few different areas
2:53:59around things like motivation.
2:54:03There was this idea about temporal
2:54:05discounting and hyperbolic discounting
2:54:07that he kind of developed to throughout
2:54:09this he borrowed from others.
2:54:10Which we've talked about. And just for
2:54:11for listeners, temporal discounting is
2:54:14we tend to devalue things far in the
2:54:16future, right? So, if there's a
2:54:18consequence 20 years from now, we tend
2:54:20to not really care.
2:54:21Right. Right. That will factor in really
2:54:23big into temporal motivation theory as
2:54:25we go through this. but his the big
2:54:27innovation
2:54:28through his theory was this equation
2:54:31that he came up with, okay? And I'll go
2:54:33through it real quick, won't bore you
2:54:34with the details, and you know, there's
2:54:36no
2:54:37obviously you're not going to be able to
2:54:38have to plug in numbers for this or
2:54:40anything like that, but
2:54:41Aw.
2:54:41I know.
2:54:42His [laughter]
2:54:43I brought my calculator and everything.
2:54:46He came up with this this
2:54:48equation, which is motivation equals
2:54:50expectancy times value divided by 1 plus
2:54:54impulsiveness times delay. Okay, that's
2:54:56all right. So, if you're not
2:54:57mathematically inclined, no big deal.
2:54:59The important thing to take away is
2:55:01there's kind of four big factors that go
2:55:04into this equation on whether or not you
2:55:06are going to procrastinate or not, if
2:55:08you're motivated enough to not
2:55:09procrastinate, right?
2:55:10Yeah.
2:55:11Uh so, expectancy, right? This
2:55:14this first variable,
2:55:15which is the perceived likelihood that
2:55:17you think you can actually achieve what
2:55:19you're trying to achieve. This goes back
2:55:21to the self-efficacy thing. We already
2:55:22talked about that. So,
2:55:23they he's already bringing in stuff that
2:55:25we know.
2:55:26If you expect you're you're going to be
2:55:27successful, you're more likely to be
2:55:29successful.
2:55:29Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's
2:55:31that's one of the first factors that up
2:55:33in the numerator of the equation, right?
2:55:35Mhm.
2:55:36Then you have the value. Uh it's your
2:55:38perceived how how rewarding the
2:55:42perceived outcome is to you.
2:55:44Okay.
2:55:44And there's a subjective component to
2:55:46that. Um but essentially, if it's
2:55:49something that you actually value
2:55:50highly, you're going to be more
2:55:51motivated, right? Makes total sense.
2:55:54Okay, multiply that by your expectancy,
2:55:55if you think you can achieve it, and
2:55:57it's highly valuable to you, then you're
2:55:59going to have the synergistic effect
2:56:00where motivation goes up, you're going
2:56:02to not procrastinate on it.
2:56:04But then we have some things that might
2:56:06detract from your
2:56:08motivation as well. Impulsiveness. Okay,
2:56:10so here we're kind of getting at some of
2:56:11the emotional side of things, right?
2:56:13We've talked already about our own
2:56:15impulsiveness and how that's factored
2:56:17into our procrastination.
2:56:19And so, impulsiveness this how prone you
2:56:20are to seek out and succumb to
2:56:22distractions or immediate gratification,
2:56:25too, right? So, your ability to postpone
2:56:28gratification or delay gratification.
2:56:30Uh and then that last one is delay. How
2:56:32far away is the outcome of whatever is
2:56:37associated with the task that you're
2:56:38about to perform, right?
2:56:39Right.
2:56:40So, the further a task is or the further
2:56:42the um
2:56:44The reward is.
2:56:44the reward or the result of of the
2:56:46behavior that you're going to engage in,
2:56:48the less motivation you have.
2:56:50Right.
2:56:50And that's the temporal discounting that
2:56:51you talked about. That was one of the
2:56:52big uh innovations of temporal
2:56:54motivation theory was including that in
2:56:58our our calculus. I mean, literally uh
2:57:01the equation to procrastination.
2:57:03Now, I'm going to guess just from my
2:57:04experience with
2:57:06other psychologists who have tried to
2:57:08create equations is that this equation
2:57:10is just not going to work in every
2:57:11situation. So, that's fine. What I like
2:57:14about what I really like about TMT is
2:57:17that it finally breaks down and
2:57:18acknowledges a lot of these
2:57:21emotional factors. The expectancy, we've
2:57:23already talked about that. Not just in
2:57:25terms of the self-efficacy, but also the
2:57:26perfectionism, right? Like if your
2:57:28expectation is that you know
2:57:32that it needs to be perfect to be
2:57:33accomplished, then that is going to
2:57:36be far more intimidating than if you're
2:57:39your expectation is that like, oh, yeah,
2:57:40I just need to do, yeah, a decent job at
2:57:42it. Um
2:57:44I like the temporal discounting and then
2:57:46I I like the It's amazing that we've
2:57:49gotten this far and not talked about
2:57:50distraction yet. Especially given this
2:57:52day and age, like I mean, younger
2:57:54listeners will probably will have
2:57:55trouble believing this, but like
2:57:58procrastination and distraction were not
2:58:00two things that you people really
2:58:02related to each other until like maybe
2:58:0415, 20 years ago. Like when we were
2:58:06kids, it was never like the issue with
2:58:09doing our homework was never because
2:58:11like we couldn't get off our phones. It
2:58:12was just we just didn't want to do our
2:58:14homework.
2:58:14Maybe TV, but even that was, yeah.
2:58:16Yeah, like it's
2:58:18Dad was probably watching TV anyway, so
2:58:19you
2:58:19You don't [laughter] choose what you
2:58:21watch. Like my memory of childhood is is
2:58:23long periods of boredom and
2:58:26but I still didn't do my homework. So
2:58:27So it it's it's
2:58:29this idea that procrastination is is
2:58:32directly proportional to distraction is
2:58:34a relatively new concept and
2:58:36I I know we're going to get into
2:58:38distraction
2:58:39deeply at some point here soon. Um but
2:58:42it's interesting to me that it's really
2:58:44only coming up now.
2:58:45Yeah.
2:58:45Well, look at it in the historical
2:58:47context again, like you just said. It
2:58:49Piers Steel was doing most of his the
2:58:51bulk of his research was in the '90s and
2:58:532000s and he's continued since then, but
2:58:56that is when information technology
2:58:58really started to
2:58:59take off.
2:58:59take off and get like embedded into the
2:59:01culture
2:59:03to where we see it today. And so the
2:59:06impulsiveness part of that
2:59:08you're right, it captures that
2:59:09distraction element.
2:59:11That
2:59:12the it's a simple equation, but it is
2:59:14pretty flexible still at the same time
2:59:15because that impulsiveness
2:59:17one of the benefits and the strength of
2:59:18the equation is that it can these these
2:59:21terms can capture a lot,
2:59:23but it those terms can also become
2:59:25imprecise then too. We we can get into
2:59:27that in a little bit, but
2:59:28Yeah.
2:59:28So like just some examples of this like
2:59:30your expectancy could be really high.
2:59:32Like you like yes, I can do this, but
2:59:34your impulsiveness
2:59:36might override that and then your
2:59:38deadline might be a long ways away. So
2:59:40you can start to see all these different
2:59:41really complicated kind of calculations
2:59:43that happens with just these four
2:59:45variables which is really
2:59:47pretty interesting and again, it was a
2:59:50an innovation at that time that to marry
2:59:53all these different things and start
2:59:54putting these things together in a way
2:59:57that's more interactive cuz we when we
2:59:58started out we were talking about the
2:59:59ancient world. There's this one school
3:00:01of thought that that this thing and then
3:00:03there then the psychologist come along
3:00:04and they're like no, it's this thing.
3:00:06This is finally we're starting to get a
3:00:08more integrated approach at this point
3:00:10and I think that's
3:00:12what another big innovation of TMT was
3:00:15that it started looking at it in a kind
3:00:17of multi-disciplinary way that we just
3:00:19hadn't seen up until till this point.
3:00:21Yeah.
3:00:22Yeah.
3:00:23If we may take a quick detour,
3:00:25Okay.
3:00:26I think the assumption up until this
3:00:28point is that
3:00:30to be productive or to
3:00:33defeat procrastination, it is about
3:00:36summoning willpower. It's about just
3:00:38mustering up enough energy or
3:00:42motivation to just brute force your way
3:00:45through it.
3:00:47And I definitely like
3:00:48especially in the the the ancient times
3:00:51and and throughout
3:00:53you know, in my second book I called it
3:00:54the classical assumption. Like if you
3:00:56look at all of the discussions around
3:00:58acrasia and like why people don't do the
3:01:00things that they should do and why
3:01:01people fail at things. Like it is very
3:01:04much seen as like it is the job of the
3:01:06higher level of your mind,
3:01:08the
3:01:09the chariot driver to whip the horses
3:01:13into shape until they do the right
3:01:14thing. And so you're just expected to
3:01:16like brute force your way through it.
3:01:19I think it's really only in the last few
3:01:22decades that our understanding of
3:01:25psychology has gotten developed enough
3:01:27that we've realized that it's like A,
3:01:29that doesn't really work in the long
3:01:31term. Like you can brute force your
3:01:32yourself into I mean everybody's had
3:01:34this experience. You can brute force
3:01:36your way into the gym once, maybe twice,
3:01:38maybe even a couple weeks, but like by
3:01:40week three or four you're done. You're
3:01:42just tapped out. You don't care anymore.
3:01:44So,
3:01:45you really do have to negotiate these
3:01:47other factors. Like you have to you
3:01:49really have to look at like what is how
3:01:51are you measuring yourself? Like when
3:01:53are the benefits coming?
3:01:55How do you feel about it? How do you
3:01:56feel about your ability to accomplish
3:01:58the thing? What sort of standards or
3:01:59expectations are you holding yourself
3:02:01to? Are those reasonable or not? Like
3:02:03it's kind of negotiating these other
3:02:05factors within your mind that help you
3:02:09you know, when you combine that with the
3:02:11environmental stuff
3:02:13like that that's you almost just like
3:02:15grease the skids
3:02:18for the behavior to happen naturally as
3:02:19a byproduct of all these things.
3:02:21Yeah, and I think maybe what you're kind
3:02:22of getting at too is that you're not
3:02:23denying
3:02:26that part of you that part of your
3:02:27nature too you're working with it
3:02:30more so and this these more recent
3:02:33theories start to really acknowledge
3:02:35that and incorporate that incorporate
3:02:37that into their their frameworks. Yeah.
3:02:39And I think you know
3:02:41for the longest time it was very much
3:02:43like the reasoning the writer you know
3:02:45on the chariot the reasoning part of
3:02:47your brain developed so you can overcome
3:02:49all of these terrible nasty brutish
3:02:51things about you and well yes it can be
3:02:53used for that but it it's also
3:02:56those things probably evolved in our
3:02:57minds as well
3:02:59in order to serve those two chariot
3:03:02chariot driving horses right? There's
3:03:05there's a an acceptance of
3:03:08who we are in a lot of these it's like
3:03:10okay look there is your there's
3:03:12impulsivity we're impulsive by our
3:03:14nature. [snorts]
3:03:15How does that factor into
3:03:17getting things done in in our
3:03:18procrastination? We you know there's we
3:03:20have this weird kind of
3:03:23temporal discounting where we we put off
3:03:25things that are further that are due
3:03:27further in advance for for whatever
3:03:28reason. Yeah.
3:03:29This starts to incorporate that and like
3:03:31really acknowledge human nature on a a
3:03:32more realistic level in my my view.
3:03:35It it's a much healthier view of
3:03:38how to actually get yourself to take the
3:03:40action that you want to take.
3:03:41Right.
3:03:41You know, cuz it is
3:03:43coming back to the shame piece
3:03:45I was just going to say shame is gone
3:03:46shame is out of the equation.
3:03:47Right. You're not judging yourself.
3:03:48You're not like God why why am I like
3:03:50not why am I discounting things that
3:03:53happen in the future
3:03:54You don't do that.
3:03:55Yeah, it's it's like you're human this
3:03:56is we all do this and and coming back to
3:03:59Aristotle this is the skill right? The
3:04:02skill you could you could almost look at
3:04:04each of these four factors and and see
3:04:06the skill in each one of them, right?
3:04:07It's like managing your expectancy,
3:04:10managing like like
3:04:12being mindful of the value that you're
3:04:14going to get out of something and and
3:04:15there are ways I I'd love to talk to you
3:04:17like there are ways of manipulating that
3:04:19value as well. Like you can
3:04:20[clears throat] gamify things, you can
3:04:22create social accountability around
3:04:24things, you can reward yourself for
3:04:26things, you can create things in your
3:04:27environment that make it more enjoyable,
3:04:29right? So it's like learning to
3:04:30manipulate the value aspect of the
3:04:32equation, learning to implement I think
3:04:34with the purpose stuff that we talked
3:04:36about really factors into the time
3:04:38discounting, right? Like it's it's like
3:04:39when you remember what is the cause or
3:04:41mission that is driving my motivation to
3:04:44do this thing
3:04:45that helps you counterbalance that time
3:04:47discounting. It's like It's like I'm
3:04:49doing this for my kids. I'm doing this
3:04:50so that when I'm a grandfather I can
3:04:52play with my grandchildren. That's why
3:04:54I'm going to the gym today, right? It's
3:04:56like that counterbalance that time
3:04:58discounting that naturally happens in
3:05:00everybody's brain. So
3:05:02it's we're finally starting to see
3:05:04everything come together.
3:05:06Right. Right. Yeah, and you can you can
3:05:09look at each one of these like the
3:05:10expectancy thing you can work on things
3:05:13around self-efficacy
3:05:15or
3:05:16break the task down to a point where it
3:05:18is you do feel like you have some agency
3:05:21and some ability to
3:05:23Where where did that start?
3:05:24Uh like the the the breaking down tasks.
3:05:27Actually that a lot of that kind of came
3:05:29from time management. So there was there
3:05:31was glimmers within that where it's like
3:05:34oh
3:05:35you don't know how to
3:05:37one of their one of the big kind of
3:05:39uh
3:05:41I don't know not a revelation or even an
3:05:42innovation but they were like oh yeah
3:05:44people need to be able to see a big task
3:05:45and break it down into the component
3:05:47parts.
3:05:48Um and it is just a lot more explicit in
3:05:51something like TMT where yeah they they
3:05:53found that breaking that down into
3:05:56you've talked about this so many times.
3:05:58This this is my go-to advice for
3:06:00Yeah, this is this is one of the first
3:06:01pieces of advice you always say. So, if
3:06:03you got this huge daunting task, you
3:06:04know, start with the most dead simple
3:06:06obvious thing that you can do and that
3:06:09gets your momentum going and then on to
3:06:11the next one and on to the next one.
3:06:12Yeah.
3:06:12That's the other thing about the
3:06:13equation, it's very dynamic. If you
3:06:15really apply it, you will see that these
3:06:17factors can change over time a lot. It's
3:06:19most most obvious in the delay thing as
3:06:21the time approaches, the motivation goes
3:06:23up, but the others can do the same
3:06:24thing, too. My value
3:06:26a a task or the the benefits of a task
3:06:28differently throughout the stages of uh
3:06:31the process of doing it as well. So,
3:06:33yeah.
3:06:33It is the breaking down thing I I feel
3:06:35like it works on so many levels. You
3:06:37know, part of it is
3:06:40just the intimidation factor. You know,
3:06:41when you have this huge hairy goal, it
3:06:44it is scary and it feels impossible and
3:06:46it feels you don't get that sense of
3:06:49progress and movement, you know, in just
3:06:51a single day or a single week of action.
3:06:54But if you can break it down into that
3:06:55single day of action, then you get to
3:06:56feel the sense of accomplishment, it
3:06:58feels less intimidating and then like
3:07:00you said, you do get that sense of
3:07:01momentum, right? Like
3:07:03there's like a old thing from that Jerry
3:07:05Seinfeld said that you know,
3:07:07when he writes, he
3:07:09X's out a day on his calendar.
3:07:11Yeah.
3:07:12And he said that you know, the initially
3:07:13the goal is to just X out a few days in
3:07:15a row, but he said once he's got a few
3:07:17days in a row, his only goal is to don't
3:07:20stop the streak.
3:07:21Don't break the chain.
3:07:22Keep it going as long as possible and
3:07:24you I get that's like a a beautiful
3:07:27example of like
3:07:29manipulating these factors within your
3:07:31own head and redefining what the metric
3:07:34is and re like
3:07:37breaking down tasks in the constituent
3:07:39tasks or like lumping tasks together
3:07:40into some larger task in a way that
3:07:43feels more doable, feels more exciting,
3:07:45feels more fun and feels less
3:07:47intimidating for yourself.
3:07:48Yeah, so that's the expectancy component
3:07:50of the the equation. I think for the
3:07:52value one like you already mentioned too
3:07:54is like having some
3:07:55What? You you said it with with respect
3:07:58to delay, but I think value can also be
3:08:00manipulated through your purpose as
3:08:01well. Like if if you do have a purpose
3:08:03again, it goes back to
3:08:05if I have a job I don't really
3:08:06necessarily like,
3:08:07Yeah.
3:08:08I'm probably going to be procrastinating
3:08:09this and that, but if I have an a
3:08:11purpose attached to that job, that same
3:08:12job,
3:08:13Yeah.
3:08:13now the value could shoot up at that
3:08:15point too. So again, it's just these
3:08:17little mind tricks just it's all within
3:08:19your head too, which is crazy, you know?
3:08:21There's some external factors as well
3:08:23obviously, the the delay and all of
3:08:25that, impulsiveness, distractions in
3:08:26your environment. But again, yeah, we're
3:08:29putting it all together at this point.
3:08:30Yeah.
3:08:31And it is
3:08:32it is a skill. It is something you you
3:08:34work on and develop and
3:08:36I mean, we'll we'll talk at the end of
3:08:38the episode about how to work on and
3:08:39develop it, but it it is
3:08:42it's not something you you know, cuz
3:08:43again, it's like purpose is subjective,
3:08:45value is subjective,
3:08:47um expectation is subjective. These are
3:08:49all things that you get to decide. You
3:08:50get to decide like what success looks
3:08:52like. You get to to decide what is
3:08:54meaningful, what is valuable, what what
3:08:56is worth pursuing, um how long you
3:08:59pursue it, you know, do you want to
3:09:01pursue it for a week, a month, a year,
3:09:0210 years?
3:09:03Um
3:09:05these are all decided within your head,
3:09:06and the skill is learning to draw the
3:09:09lines in such a way
3:09:11that makes it easy to move forward.
3:09:13Right. That it that it stops being
3:09:14intimidating or feeling difficult.
3:09:17I was uh I listened to a podcast that uh
3:09:20Piers Steel was on in preparation for
3:09:21this too, and he made a good point and
3:09:23you actually alluded this earlier, uh
3:09:25was that to um
3:09:27TMT, a lot of it is about being very
3:09:29realistic, too.
3:09:30Mhm.
3:09:30And he said the people he's noticed that
3:09:32do the best with procrastination are
3:09:34very very honest with themselves. And I
3:09:36think it applies to each one of these
3:09:38variables, but he you know, he gave the
3:09:40example that we've already given too of,
3:09:42you know, he doesn't buy junk food.
3:09:43Yeah.
3:09:44And it's because he knows what happens
3:09:47when he has junk food in the house. And
3:09:49I've I've been very like with my friends
3:09:51they all know like I'm a sugar fiend,
3:09:53I'm a junk food fiend, and that's why I
3:09:54don't buy it. You know, um
3:09:57and but I think that you
3:09:59um
3:10:00that's part of like reducing
3:10:02distractions part maybe or it is uh
3:10:05even increasing expectancy. Like I know
3:10:08I cannot eat junk food if it's not
3:10:10around me.
3:10:10Yes.
3:10:11Boom. That's like a
3:10:12immediate unlock for me. Immediate win
3:10:15for me. So it is just getting into the
3:10:16kind of minutia and and dialing these
3:10:18things around uh to fit your personality
3:10:20and be real honest with yourself about
3:10:22it. Yeah.
3:10:22Yeah. How do you how do you feel like
3:10:24this maps with uh
3:10:26Nir Eyal's
3:10:28indistractable stuff? Because I you
3:10:29know,
3:10:30one of the things I quibble with Nir on
3:10:32sometimes I sometimes I feel like you
3:10:34know,
3:10:35it is a two-sided coin. One is
3:10:38just don't have temptation in your
3:10:40environment. Yeah. Like be aware of your
3:10:42triggers and get rid of them. But then
3:10:44some of it too is like being aware of
3:10:46your own internal triggers, like being
3:10:48aware of when you get bored or antsy or
3:10:51anxious
3:10:52and not choosing the the avoidance in
3:10:55the moment. Sometimes I feel like he
3:10:57leans too much on the latter, but like
3:11:00I'm wondering I'm wondering if you like
3:11:02if you if his framework kind of fits
3:11:04into the the TMT stuff like
3:11:07So specifically around environmental
3:11:09design or um more about the emotional
3:11:11trigger stuff?
3:11:12Uh the emotional trigger stuff.
3:11:14Yeah. Well, so I think that's actually
3:11:16kind of one
3:11:18I would say fair criticism about TMT is
3:11:20that it kind of is a little it it is not
3:11:25specific enough around the emotional
3:11:26triggers necessarily. Yes, there's
3:11:28impulsivity in there.
3:11:30Um and there's some subjective uh
3:11:33constructs like value and expectancy and
3:11:35all that, but the emotional side I don't
3:11:37think it's quite it kind of tries to
3:11:40boil down these very complex emotional
3:11:42processes that we go through into four
3:11:44variables. And that that's one of the
3:11:48the criticisms of it that I think is
3:11:50fair.
3:11:50Yeah.
3:11:51Um
3:11:51It feels like it should be like six or
3:11:52seven variables.
3:11:53Well, yeah. And while while the
3:11:55variables are pretty well clearly
3:11:57defined, like actually measuring them
3:11:59and defining them in in the real world
3:12:02is much harder.
3:12:04Yeah.
3:12:04Um so I think it's a fair criticism of
3:12:06it. Um and we'll get to more of the
3:12:09emotional side of things, but yeah, it
3:12:11oversimplifies some of the
3:12:13the complexity of human behavior, I
3:12:15think, to some extent, which all
3:12:16equations will, you know.
3:12:18and it's
3:12:19This is This is the problem with this
3:12:21field is like anytime I see an equation
3:12:22in psychology, I'm like
3:12:24Yeah.
3:12:24You know, it is probably directionally
3:12:26correct,
3:12:27Yeah.
3:12:27but it probably doesn't not measure a
3:12:28single thing.
3:12:29have It can't capture everything, yeah.
3:12:30Yeah.
3:12:31And really what they found in the
3:12:32experimental studies is TMT does a very
3:12:34good job of predicting procrastination
3:12:36in the short run, but it's not super
3:12:38great about like chronic
3:12:39procrastination, let's say, or just like
3:12:41repeated procrastination in the same
3:12:43domain.
3:12:43Yeah.
3:12:44Um you I'm I'm sure you've experienced
3:12:47this before, too. Sometimes you're like
3:12:48highly motivated
3:12:50and you still procrastinate. Like I like
3:12:52a surge of motivation, I'm going to get
3:12:53this done, and you still find a way to
3:12:55procrastinate.
3:12:56Um and so that's
3:12:58the one thing the output for this, if
3:12:59you notice in the the equation, is
3:13:01motivation. It's motivation equals the
3:13:04expectancies times value, yada yada.
3:13:06There's can still be times where you
3:13:07feel highly motivated and still
3:13:08procrastinate.
3:13:09still don't do it.
3:13:10And it just doesn't It
3:13:11This doesn't fully capture that.
3:13:13Yeah. Yeah.
3:13:13So that's one of the criticisms, for
3:13:15sure. I and there just isn't really a
3:13:18lot of focus on the emotional and
3:13:20affective triggers.
3:13:21Yeah, cuz I'm just thinking about the
3:13:23impulsivity piece.
3:13:25Like everything else makes sense to me,
3:13:26right? The expectancy and the value,
3:13:28um
3:13:29delay, yeah.
3:13:30the delay. I feel like the impulsivity
3:13:32you could actually break out into
3:13:34probably three or four of its own
3:13:35variables, right? Like there's how many
3:13:38distractions are in your environment?
3:13:39Like how easy is avoidant? Like this is
3:13:41the near IL thing or which is like he
3:13:43it's
3:13:44it's your level of distraction is
3:13:46proportional to both how many
3:13:48opportunities for distraction is there
3:13:50in your environment and how prone are
3:13:53you to distraction through your own
3:13:55internal emotional triggers, right? Like
3:13:57you want to work on both sides of that
3:13:59coin,
3:14:00right? You want to reduce your internal
3:14:01emotional triggers and you also want to
3:14:03reduce your external environmental
3:14:05triggers so that you're you're kind of
3:14:07like hitting it from both sides.
3:14:09Um so that feels like it's missing. And
3:14:12then also I know we're we're going to
3:14:13get to emotional regulation in a second,
3:14:15but it it's a huge piece. Like if you
3:14:17are not good at managing your emotions,
3:14:20right? Like if you are the type of
3:14:21person who
3:14:23when you get angry, you just
3:14:25lose your for an entire day
3:14:28and become extremely impulsive or when
3:14:31you get anxious, you just like panic and
3:14:33like run to, you know, whatever the the
3:14:36nearest bucket of chocolate is. Like it
3:14:38is
3:14:39the the intensity of your emotions plays
3:14:42a huge factor in this and
3:14:45the ability to regulate your emotions,
3:14:47to come down from them, to
3:14:49to cope with them effectively
3:14:52is a huge part of this as well.
3:14:53Yeah. And this doesn't even get into the
3:14:55physical side. Like it's like if you
3:14:56haven't slept,
3:14:58right? Like if you haven't if if
3:15:01you know, if you've got an injury or if
3:15:03you're sick, um I mean like there there
3:15:07it's well documented and everybody's
3:15:08experienced it that it's like if you are
3:15:10physically not in good shape, um
3:15:14your willpower is just basically gone
3:15:17entirely.
3:15:17Yeah, and cultural norms, too. Those
3:15:19aren't captured in this
3:15:20either, you know? So it's really hard to
3:15:23that impulsivity one I agree is kind of
3:15:25like it's a catch-all
3:15:27category for any sort of emotional
3:15:29influence that would go into
3:15:31procrastination or whether you or
3:15:33motivation.
3:15:34Yeah.
3:15:34So, yeah, it's limited in that regard. I
3:15:36definitely think so. Yeah. I
3:15:39It is kind of
3:15:40I I [snorts] really want human behavior
3:15:42to be boiled down to like an equation.
3:15:45[laughter]
3:15:45That would be awesome.
3:15:46Wouldn't it be nice?
3:15:47Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure there are there
3:15:50like this equation, it does capture a
3:15:51lot of
3:15:52Sure.
3:15:52uh procrastination or motivation in
3:15:54certain situations, but it's not it's
3:15:56still not complete. And I you know,
3:15:58whether we ever get to a fully complete
3:15:59view of it or not, I don't know. But
3:16:01this is definitely a step in the right
3:16:02direction. So, I don't want to knock it
3:16:03by any means.
3:16:05So, where are we at now? What what is uh
3:16:07what's our current best understanding of
3:16:09procrastination and why it happens?
3:16:11Well, Mark, I hate to tell you, but it
3:16:13comes down to emotions.
3:16:15I know.
3:16:15I know. We have to get squishy with it.
3:16:17Why?
3:16:19[laughter]
3:16:19See, you just need to be hugged more.
3:16:21That's why you're not That's why you're
3:16:22not doing your term paper. You haven't
3:16:24had enough hugs.
3:16:24Well, [laughter]
3:16:27that could be part of it, yes.
3:16:30In the early 2010s, late 2000s, early
3:16:322010s, uh there was one researcher in
3:16:35particular, uh Tim Pychyl, who started
3:16:37to notice that actually this isn't just
3:16:41uh a problem that boils down to these
3:16:43four factors, it's a much deeper
3:16:45emotional mood regulation problem.
3:16:49And in 2013 he wrote a book about it and
3:16:51um it's very accessible and great book
3:16:54if you want to check it out. And then
3:16:55his uh one of his protégés was Fuschia
3:16:58Sirois, who we interviewed
3:17:00Um
3:17:00for the show, too. And she has kind of
3:17:02carried the torch since then. Tim's
3:17:03Uh retired.
3:17:05He's retired now. Fuschia is now living
3:17:07in England and she's carried on she's
3:17:09kind of the world's foremost researcher
3:17:11on procrastination. And their uh
3:17:14the core
3:17:16premise of the emotion regulation theory
3:17:19of procrastination is that it is first
3:17:21and foremost procrastination is a mood
3:17:24regulation strategy that we use and an
3:17:26emotional regulation strategy that we
3:17:28use to avoid these nasty negative
3:17:31feelings that we associate with any
3:17:32given task. That a lot of what we've
3:17:34already talked about. But they said that
3:17:36is the point. That right there is where
3:17:38procrastination starts and where we need
3:17:40to focus um our our resources and our
3:17:44ability and our higher cognitive powers
3:17:45and everything we've been talking about.
3:17:47This is actually where we really need to
3:17:48focus on. Um the the research findings
3:17:52point to
3:17:53the negative affect triggers that we
3:17:55have around um we're more likely to
3:17:57delay tasks that we just find
3:17:58unpleasant.
3:17:59Mhm.
3:17:59Makes sense, right? There's task
3:18:01aversion as well. Anything we perceive
3:18:03as unpleasant or overly challenging, it
3:18:06gives us this kind of urge to
3:18:07procrastinate almost. Um we also
3:18:09prioritize mood repair.
3:18:12Right? So
3:18:13procrastination typically serves to like
3:18:17kind of quickly improve our current mood
3:18:20that we have like ooh this feels bad I
3:18:21just want out of this. I want to escape
3:18:23basically.
3:18:24Um research backs all of that up.
3:18:26There's a lot of individual traits too.
3:18:28Um we've kind of we've kind of mentioned
3:18:29that your uh if you're more impulsive or
3:18:32not that's like one individual trait
3:18:33that might um uh influence the way you
3:18:37procrastinate or whether you
3:18:38procrastinate on anything.
3:18:39Um
3:18:41and uh there
3:18:43as opposed to something like
3:18:44conscientiousness which we haven't
3:18:45really talked about but that's an
3:18:47individual trait a personality trait
3:18:49that can influence all of this.
3:18:51There's varied personal experiences too.
3:18:53We've talked a little bit about them you
3:18:54know your childhood upbringing or
3:18:55anything like that. They incorporate
3:18:56that into this uh framework as well.
3:18:59There's also just uh uh kind of a a
3:19:01personal nature to all this. So it's
3:19:03both universal emotional processes but
3:19:07then also the individual differences. So
3:19:08it's kind of trying to tie all of that
3:19:10together into this um picture of
3:19:13how we regulate emotions on a even
3:19:16moment to moment basis. Not just day to
3:19:17day basis but a moment to moment basis.
3:19:20Procrastination is a strategy for mood
3:19:23repair and just wanting to not feel bad
3:19:26essentially.
3:19:27Yeah.
3:19:28So when you say procrastination is a
3:19:29strategy to for mood regulation
3:19:32Um.
3:19:32like explain that like I'm five.
3:19:34Okay.
3:19:35What does that mean?
3:19:36Okay. So
3:19:37Mark.
3:19:38[snorts]
3:19:39[laughter]
3:19:40Marky. Marky.
3:19:41Marky poo. Uh in case people like don't
3:19:44really emotional regulation is one of
3:19:46those things that like everybody's heard
3:19:47the term but like
3:19:48Right. It's fuzzy.
3:19:49Yeah.
3:19:49It what what does it actually mean?
3:19:51Yeah. Let's just take an example of when
3:19:53you are going to procrastinate on
3:19:54something. You have a work task you want
3:19:56to do or you're you need to do. Okay.
3:19:59You don't want to do it. That's kind of
3:20:01the point, right?
3:20:02When you approach this task like you
3:20:04might get an anxious feeling.
3:20:06Um.
3:20:07Dread.
3:20:08Dread.
3:20:09Boredom.
3:20:09Yeah. Or you know the perfectionism can
3:20:12even come in at that point too. Like oh
3:20:13my god am I not going to do a good job
3:20:15at this and if I fail
3:20:16Anxiety.
3:20:17Anxiety boils up and it
3:20:18Anger. Why the do I have to do
3:20:19this?
3:20:20Yeah.
3:20:20Any any negative emotion associated with
3:20:23the task will um
3:20:25increase your likelihood of
3:20:27procrastinating in that moment. And so
3:20:29what we do is we look into usually into
3:20:31our immediate environment or past
3:20:34strategies that we might have used as
3:20:36well
3:20:37to alleviate those um uncomfortable
3:20:40feelings that we have. And that's when
3:20:42procrastination takes over. Okay, I I've
3:20:45approached this is a task that I find
3:20:47unpleasant.
3:20:49Don't like that unpleasant feeling. Get
3:20:50me out of here. Let me do something
3:20:51else. Let me distract myself with you
3:20:54know these days it's your phone or
3:20:55whatever it is.
3:20:56Yeah.
3:20:56Uh or you know this is why you can also
3:20:59like people will procrastinate by
3:21:00cleaning their houses or something like
3:21:02this. Something some boring task because
3:21:04they find that even less awful than
3:21:07whatever they're they're going to be
3:21:08working on, right?
3:21:09Right.
3:21:09Does that make sense, Marky?
3:21:10Yes.
3:21:11Okay.
3:21:12[laughter]
3:21:13I was going to call you Daddy Drew
3:21:15No. No. No. No. No. No.
3:21:16I was like we're not going to go there.
3:21:18Yeah. Yeah. that gets weird. [laughter]
3:21:20That gets really weird.
3:21:23Please do not call me that.
3:21:26[laughter]
3:21:29ever
3:21:31Early on in this this when this
3:21:33framework was being developed a lot of
3:21:34this the psychologist called it giving
3:21:37in to feel good.
3:21:38Mhm.
3:21:38Right? So you look for whatever feels on
3:21:41a relative basis whatever feels better
3:21:43in the moment than whatever you're
3:21:45uncomfortable with.
3:21:45Yeah.
3:21:46go and you go to that and you give in to
3:21:48that urge.
3:21:49Yeah.
3:21:49There's some impulsivity around that
3:21:51as well. There's environmental factors
3:21:53that go into this. But at at its base at
3:21:56its core it is that
3:21:59that emotional regulation that moment
3:22:02when you choose between do I need to do
3:22:05the thing that needs to be done or do I
3:22:06need to I just want to remove this
3:22:08anxious uncomfortable
3:22:11angry feeling that I'm bored feeling
3:22:13painful feeling whatever it is.
3:22:14Yeah. Yeah I I still it's funny cuz I
3:22:17didn't think about this when we were
3:22:18researching the episode but like now
3:22:20that we're talking about it I'm kind of
3:22:21like seeing it in my mind
3:22:23again it's kind of two sides of a coin.
3:22:24Yeah.
3:22:25One is managing the environment managing
3:22:29giving yourself fewer opportunities for
3:22:31that avoidance right? Like clearing the
3:22:33junk food out of the fridge.
3:22:34[clears throat]
3:22:34Turning your phone off.
3:22:35Turning the phone off leaving the phone
3:22:37in the other room all those things. And
3:22:39then the other side of the coin is is
3:22:41that that emotional management the
3:22:44awareness
3:22:45understanding the emotions that are
3:22:46coming up and then understanding
3:22:49perhaps why those emotions may be
3:22:51arising for
3:22:53unnecessary reasons right? Like are you
3:22:55being too perfectionist? Are you
3:22:58protecting your ego?
3:22:59Um
3:23:00are you rationalizing past behavior?
3:23:03Um are you trying to impress somebody?
3:23:05Do you is the reason you're motivated
3:23:08the reason you want to do this thing a
3:23:10shitty reason and it's actually not very
3:23:11motivating at all. Um like all of those
3:23:14fact All those things that we've talked
3:23:15about. Do you Do you have a lot of shame
3:23:17around this, and you just like don't It
3:23:18makes you feel icky and horrible about
3:23:20yourself, and so you just find any any
3:23:22way you can to get away from it? All of
3:23:24these factors that we've been talking
3:23:25about up to this point,
3:23:27almost all of them are factored into
3:23:30that emotional negotiation of like "Why
3:23:33do I feel this way? Is it reasonable to
3:23:35feel this way? And now that I feel this
3:23:36way, how do I manage it well?"
3:23:38That's one side of the coin.
3:23:40And then the other side of the coin is
3:23:42the
3:23:43"How do I give myself as few escape
3:23:45routes as possible?"
3:23:46Exactly. Yes.
3:23:47Right? And that's the behaviorist stuff,
3:23:49the environmental design stuff.
3:23:51Right.
3:23:51Coming back to the skill thing, that it
3:23:53that it's the two sides of the the
3:23:55procrastination skill coin, right? It's
3:23:57like on the one side it's the
3:23:58environmental design, the uh
3:24:02managing your triggers, managing your
3:24:03nudges, and then on the other side it's
3:24:05managing your own emotions.
3:24:07Right.
3:24:07Understanding why you you you associate
3:24:09certain things with a task, and how to
3:24:12kind of manipulate the levers or dials
3:24:15in your head to make the task feel
3:24:17easier. Whether that's through breaking
3:24:19it down in the smaller chunks, whether
3:24:21that's gamifying it, whether that's
3:24:23finding accountability with somebody,
3:24:25rewarding yourself with something.
3:24:27There's all sorts of levers you can pull
3:24:28to like manage those internal emotions.
3:24:30Right. Right. That everything we've
3:24:32talked about does It crosses that point
3:24:34of emotion regulation that you have to
3:24:36manage, right? Exactly.
3:24:38Yeah.
3:24:39Um there's uh it's And it does It goes
3:24:42back to It's a short-term relief
3:24:44Mhm.
3:24:45for uh long-term uh um detriment.
3:24:49Right.
3:24:49Right? It All of this is It What it
3:24:52comes down to is I don't have to feel
3:24:53that discomfort right now if I just do
3:24:55something else.
3:24:56Yes.
3:24:57All of those things are kind of like
3:24:58getting at that, right? Like if whether
3:25:00it's in your environment or just an an
3:25:02emotional
3:25:03Well, and what's amazing, too, is that
3:25:05like all of the thinkers that we talked
3:25:07about through throughout this entire
3:25:08episode from Plato to Augustine to to
3:25:11Aquinas to to everybody
3:25:13it's not that they got it wrong.
3:25:15Right.
3:25:15It was just incomplete, right? It's like
3:25:17Augustine said, he's like it's it's the
3:25:20failure is is you are you are
3:25:22sacrificing your higher level value, the
3:25:24thing that is more important to you but
3:25:26difficult to do for the thing for the
3:25:27lower level value, the thing that is
3:25:29easy to do but much less and less
3:25:31valuable and less important. You know,
3:25:33Plato saw it as like a a a an ignorance
3:25:36of the repercussions of your decisions
3:25:38of like not understanding like how your
3:25:40behavior like the what what you are
3:25:42doing in that that very moment. Uh even
3:25:45to like the Buddhist perspective of like
3:25:47not being aware of what your internal
3:25:49triggers are. Like this is this is what
3:25:50I found really interesting when I looked
3:25:52at the Buddhist side of it. Like again,
3:25:54it's correct, it's incomplete, but it's
3:25:56completely correct. Like and in fact, I
3:25:58actually found a meta-analysis uh of
3:26:0014,000 participants of who practice
3:26:03mindfulness and meditation. Um and they
3:26:06showed
3:26:08significant improvements in time
3:26:09management, task initiation, and uh and
3:26:12also a sense you you talked about that
3:26:14sense of like how long it would take to
3:26:15complete something. Their sense of how
3:26:17long it would take to complete a task
3:26:19actually got more accurate after the
3:26:20mindfulness as well. And so again, it's
3:26:22like
3:26:22That makes total sense.
3:26:24Emotions
3:26:25tend to be funhouse mirrors in our
3:26:27brains, right? So like when you're angry
3:26:31things that are small appear very large
3:26:33and things that are large appear very
3:26:34small, you know? It's like when you're
3:26:35anxious, there are other things that are
3:26:37things that appear
3:26:38very close are actually very far away
3:26:40and vice versa, right? So it's
3:26:43it's understanding that you're looking
3:26:45at a funhouse mirror. You know,
3:26:46meditation is a practice of like
3:26:48developing the ability to recognize the
3:26:50funhouse mirrors and adapt to them and
3:26:52still navigate through them.
3:26:54And uh
3:26:55whereas when you're just you know, I
3:26:57think
3:26:58where Plato was correct is that the the
3:27:00actual ignorance is just believing the
3:27:03funhouse mirror is real. Yeah, like
3:27:05that's the ignorance.
3:27:06Yeah, definitely. And the the
3:27:08one of the big recommendations from
3:27:12this group of researchers, Tim Pychyl
3:27:14especially and and Fuchsia Sirois,
3:27:16uh is more mindfulness around these
3:27:18things. So, um we can talk about this
3:27:20this now, the uh the RAIN method. Uh
3:27:23this is what
3:27:25this was an article that Tim Pychyl
3:27:26wrote and he's written about it in his
3:27:28books as well.
3:27:29Um but it's a mindfulness tool
3:27:32um that gets you
3:27:34um figuring out that funhouse mirror
3:27:36kind of brain that we all have.
3:27:38Yeah.
3:27:39And and being able to deal with it. And
3:27:40it it calls it the RAIN method because
3:27:42it's an acronym. It's recognize, allow,
3:27:44investigate, and non-identification.
3:27:47Okay, so it's just a a very basic kind
3:27:49of I I believe it's from Zen Buddhism
3:27:51even maybe actually too, but it's
3:27:52recognizing in the moment when you do
3:27:55feel that resistance, those those
3:27:57uncomfortable feelings that that pop up.
3:27:59I think most people like when those that
3:28:01pops up, your initial reaction is to
3:28:04look for a distraction.
3:28:05Mhm.
3:28:05This says, "Okay, wait. Just recognize
3:28:06when it's happening. That's all you have
3:28:07to do at first." This is I'm approaching
3:28:10a task I don't like. I'm just going to
3:28:12sit with that. Right. And that's
3:28:13actually the second step is allowing
3:28:16those emotions to just exist and not
3:28:18push them away, not reach for a
3:28:19distraction, just allow them to be there
3:28:22um
3:28:22and don't flee from it.
3:28:24The I in it is investigate those
3:28:26emotions.
3:28:27Get curious. Why why do I feel this way?
3:28:30You That's something you just said too.
3:28:31Like, why am I feeling ashamed about
3:28:33this? Why am I feeling anxious about it?
3:28:34Angry about it?
3:28:35Are my expectations reasonable? Am I
3:28:37blowing things out of proportion? Am I
3:28:39just tired? Did I sleep last night?
3:28:41Like, yeah. Start asking all those
3:28:43questions.
3:28:43Ask those questions, investigate, and
3:28:44get and get deep with it, too, right
3:28:46there. And the last one is
3:28:47non-identification
3:28:49with the emotion. This is a very
3:28:50Buddhist thing.
3:28:51Very Buddhist thing.
3:28:51Yeah, which is uh you know, I am not
3:28:53this anxiousness. I I feel anxious, I am
3:28:56not this anxious.
3:28:57Yes.
3:28:57Don't you don't want to fuse your
3:28:59identity. Like you just said, if you
3:29:01fuse yourself with that funhouse mirror
3:29:04image that you have in your mind, then
3:29:06everything becomes like a funhouse
3:29:08mirror room, right?
3:29:10And to Freud's point, you'll protect it.
3:29:12Yeah, right?
3:29:13If you feel threatened
3:29:13If you decide that you are anxious and
3:29:15perfectionist, then you will you will
3:29:17actually protect that self-definition.
3:29:20Yes.
3:29:20Uh which will cause you to like actually
3:29:22your procrastination will become part of
3:29:24your identity,
3:29:26right? And it's it's we talked about
3:29:27that earlier about people who identify
3:29:29as like, "Oh, I just work better under
3:29:31pressure." What they probably don't
3:29:32realize they're doing is that they are
3:29:34they are incorporating their
3:29:35procrastination as a part of their
3:29:37identity. And so now they will start
3:29:39unconsciously protecting it, right?
3:29:40Right. And and continue to procrastinate
3:29:42to show like, "This is my identity."
3:29:44to themselves and others, yeah.
3:29:46Yeah, yeah. So that uh for as far as
3:29:49practical takeaways go, I think that for
3:29:50me after realizing that I I realized I
3:29:53did some kind of version of this or bits
3:29:55and pieces of it
3:29:56when I really did need to get something
3:29:58done. I would kind of like, you know,
3:29:59buckle down be like, "Okay, I I don't
3:30:01like this. Why don't I like this? All
3:30:02right, I'll just get going." Putting it
3:30:03all together like that though has been
3:30:05super super useful for me.
3:30:08Um and especially the non-identification
3:30:09part, that last part is very important I
3:30:11think too. Like you just said, don't
3:30:13wrap your identity up in whatever you're
3:30:14doing.
3:30:15Totally.
3:30:16For sure.
3:30:17Yeah. Well, speaking of identities, I've
3:30:19got like a fun exercise for us before we
3:30:21wrap up with like the the the tactics
3:30:24and strategies for everybody.
3:30:26Linda Sapadin, she's a clinical
3:30:27psychologist. She wrote a book in the
3:30:29'90s
3:30:30called the six types of procrastinators.
3:30:32And so she has six types that she has
3:30:34identified through her clinical
3:30:35practice. Fun. And I thought it could I
3:30:38I thought it would be fun to kind of
3:30:39like now that we understand all the
3:30:40frameworks, right? Like I think it'd be
3:30:42fun to go through these six types and
3:30:44kind of identify what the factors are
3:30:46like that lead to their procrastination.
3:30:49And I imagine that listeners will see
3:30:52themselves in at least one of them. So,
3:30:54the first one, which I know I know
3:30:57you've dealt with is
3:30:58[laughter]
3:30:59the perfectionist. Right. Fears
3:31:01imperfection, sets unrealistic
3:31:03standards,
3:31:04um
3:31:04refuses to accept good enough.
3:31:07[laughter]
3:31:08And um
3:31:10ends up having to use time limits to
3:31:12avoid endless revisions or redos.
3:31:15Do you feel attacked?
3:31:16Yeah.
3:31:17[laughter]
3:31:18I actually I feel like I'm getting
3:31:19better at it. I I mean this was kind of
3:31:21my this is my beast to slay this year, I
3:31:23think, was the perfectionism. I I
3:31:25actually feel like as I'm getting older
3:31:27I'm letting more things go. I'm like,
3:31:28all right, that's not going to be
3:31:29perfect.
3:31:30that's just from accumulating so many
3:31:33imperfect experiences?
3:31:34Yeah. I I don't I don't think I've
3:31:36actively worked at
3:31:37[laughter]
3:31:37like getting over it. It's just been I
3:31:39like now accept reality for what it is.
3:31:40Yeah. Yeah.
3:31:42All right, the second one is the
3:31:44dreamer.
3:31:45Loves big ideas, but struggles with
3:31:47details. Breaks goals into steps and
3:31:50needs to use structured plans to
3:31:52maintain consistent habits.
3:31:54Tends to wait for inspiration rather
3:31:56than just take action.
3:31:58I relate to this one a little bit. Like
3:32:00I I my mind definitely I like to dream
3:32:02big and like have these kind of giant
3:32:04aspirations and
3:32:06that's fun and that I think that is like
3:32:09overall it's a net positive to have like
3:32:11big goals and dreams, but the the
3:32:15drawback of that is the intimidation
3:32:17factor because it's like if you have
3:32:18this massive world-changing plan
3:32:23that is going to take 10 years to
3:32:24execute and then you wake up on day one,
3:32:27it just feels so minuscule and
3:32:29insignificant. And so yeah, it says here
3:32:32that that these the dreamers have to
3:32:34break break their goals down into steps.
3:32:35I I am like as you know, I am
3:32:38an evangelist for this. Like this is my
3:32:41number one go-to
3:32:42for any anytime I'm procrastinating. I
3:32:45mean it I to the point where like if I'm
3:32:48procrastinating writing
3:32:51this outline for this podcast, I will
3:32:53tell myself, "Literally just write one
3:32:55word." Yeah, that's all it takes. Start
3:32:57with a word and then go to a sentence
3:32:58and then go to the paragraph, right?
3:33:00Like
3:33:02it's it it creates the momentum, it
3:33:04removes the intimidation, it like
3:33:06generates
3:33:07emotional momentum. Um
3:33:10it's
3:33:11it's the way to go. Like my
3:33:14my brain tends to just want to make
3:33:15everything as big and ambitious as
3:33:17possible and so it's it's like I'm the
3:33:19work for me is constantly breaking
3:33:21things back down and making them
3:33:22smaller. Yeah.
3:33:24Well, so that makes sense to me when
3:33:25it's something like do a
3:33:26podcast outline. Where I struggle with
3:33:29that though is okay, I'm breaking
3:33:31something down, makes sense, it's
3:33:33doable, I have self-efficacy around it,
3:33:35I can do this thing.
3:33:37My problem
3:33:38often comes in when it's tying that back
3:33:40to the bigger picture, you know? It
3:33:42makes sense with like a a podcast
3:33:44outline cuz that's a tangible thing, but
3:33:45it's like if it's more abstract, further
3:33:47in the future maybe,
3:33:49and I'm doing this one little task, I I
3:33:51have a really hard time
3:33:53marrying what I'm doing like writing a
3:33:56sentence about something with some grand
3:33:58goal that I have.
3:33:59So I'm I'm actually I didn't expect to
3:34:01do this, but I'm I'm going to bring
3:34:02Eisenhower back into this.
3:34:03Oh, okay.
3:34:04So Eisenhower has a great quote that I
3:34:06love uh where he says uh "Plans mean
3:34:09nothing, but planning is everything."
3:34:11Okay.
3:34:11And I truly believe that like planning,
3:34:15projecting, forecasting,
3:34:1799% of it's
3:34:18Okay.
3:34:19You know, it's like none of it's going
3:34:20to come true. Um it's funny cuz I just
3:34:23uh
3:34:24I just worked with uh uh our head of
3:34:27operations on on like a projection for
3:34:292025 and 2026. And
3:34:32I mean, I've been doing this long enough
3:34:33that I'm like, "This is bullshit." None
3:34:35of this is None of this is going to come
3:34:36true.
3:34:37But it's still useful. I still do it
3:34:39every single year because it does
3:34:41exactly what you just said, which is it
3:34:42like it ties this individual podcast
3:34:46shooting this segment of this podcast is
3:34:49now tied to this episode, which is tied
3:34:52to the projection for the podcast this
3:34:54year, which is tied to the overall
3:34:56business strategy, which is tied to like
3:34:58our overall mission and goals, right?
3:35:00So, it's like it lines all those things
3:35:01up. Um that's what I find is that like
3:35:04it's like the numbers don't matter. Like
3:35:06it's nothing ever plays out the way you
3:35:07expect it to, but the act of creating
3:35:10that plan or projection
3:35:13ties all those things together in your
3:35:14head.
3:35:15That makes sense to me. Okay. Uh next
3:35:17one, the warrior avoids risk due to fear
3:35:20of failure,
3:35:22struggles to reframe fear as growth,
3:35:24needs to take small manageable step
3:35:26steps and challenge catastrophic
3:35:28thinking with more realistic outcomes.
3:35:31I am definitely not this person. I don't
3:35:33think you are either.
3:35:34No, maybe a little bit, but nah.
3:35:35I've definitely known people like this
3:35:37who are just like almost like
3:35:39uh
3:35:41doomsayers. Like they they just think
3:35:42everything's going to go wrong and worry
3:35:44about everything all the time. Um
3:35:46and it is
3:35:47It like freezes them in place kind of is
3:35:49it like a like a fight or flight
3:35:51response or um more of a fight flight
3:35:54freeze response or they're freezing or
3:35:55what what is it that makes them
3:35:56procrastinate about this?
3:35:58I definitely think uh you know, if you
3:35:59think
3:36:00fight or fight or flight, I think it's
3:36:02the flight side of it. Like I mean,
3:36:04procrastination is essentially just the
3:36:06flight in the fight or flight. Um
3:36:08but yeah, for people who are prone to
3:36:10worry and fear
3:36:12chronically, I could see how it's just
3:36:14like you just don't want to do anything
3:36:15because what if it goes wrong, you know,
3:36:18what if like they're just kind of always
3:36:19imagining worst case scenario.
3:36:21Yeah, which you would think it's kind of
3:36:22like almost a perfectionist thing, but
3:36:23it's not. It's it's more cuz the
3:36:25perfectionist is like, well, what if I
3:36:26don't do it perfectly? Well, what if I
3:36:28you know, what if I
3:36:29what if I'm embarrassed by or whatever.
3:36:31This is like what if it just everything
3:36:32just the worst case scenario comes to
3:36:34mind.
3:36:34Right. What if what if it goes wrong?
3:36:36What if it it What if I'm worse off than
3:36:38I am now? Like yeah, the perfectionist
3:36:39is like here my bar is way up here. What
3:36:42if I don't hit it? Whereas like the
3:36:43warrior is just like what if things get
3:36:45worse because I tried this thing? The
3:36:48crisis maker, so we talked about this.
3:36:50Thrives on last minute adrenaline,
3:36:52enjoys the emotional rush
3:36:55of doing things last minute.
3:36:57Needs to create earlier artificial
3:37:00deadlines, needs to work in scheduled
3:37:02sessions, and needs to reward themselves
3:37:04for finishing ahead of time. I think
3:37:06we've covered this person quite a bit
3:37:07here, but it is interesting to see them
3:37:09show up in the list here. The next one
3:37:10is the defier. I definitely relate to
3:37:13this one.
3:37:14Resists imposed tasks, dislikes
3:37:17authority, struggles to reframe actions
3:37:19as personal choices, needs to identify
3:37:22with the direct benefits,
3:37:24use autonomy to stay in control rather
3:37:26than react passively.
3:37:28I as a person who just chronically hates
3:37:30being told what to do to the point like
3:37:32is just like
3:37:33unnecessarily contrarian at times.
3:37:36Big cultural component that one though,
3:37:37too, you know, where if obedience or at
3:37:40least tradition or
3:37:43service to
3:37:44your family,
3:37:46society, whatever it is, there's there's
3:37:48a big cultural component
3:37:49Totally. This feels like maybe a little
3:37:51bit of a privileged procrastinator.
3:37:53Yeah, like it's
3:37:54Could be
3:37:55[laughter]
3:37:56surveying too many college kids, yeah.
3:37:58Yeah, exactly. Like it it's just I mean
3:38:00my personality has always been like if
3:38:02somebody tells me to do something, my
3:38:03first reaction is like no, I'm not going
3:38:04to do it.
3:38:05[laughter]
3:38:07And then finally the overdoer. Takes on
3:38:10too much, tries to accomplish too many
3:38:12tasks at the same time, unable to manage
3:38:15their energy effectively.
3:38:17They must learn to say no, delegate
3:38:21their tasks, focus on high impact tasks,
3:38:24prioritization, which we talked about,
3:38:25and then set boundaries to reduce
3:38:27overwhelm and burnout.
3:38:28This is me, yeah.
3:38:29[laughter]
3:38:31Definitely a little bit of me in there,
3:38:32too. Like, it just
3:38:34You You try to take on a lot, you do. I
3:38:36I have a hard time saying no.
3:38:37Yeah. Yeah.
3:38:38Yeah.
3:38:39I definitely see this one in myself.
3:38:41Mhm.
3:38:41I To me, this feels like the If there's
3:38:43one of these that I I imagine is has
3:38:46grown over the last 10, 20 years, I
3:38:49could see it being the overdoer. Just
3:38:50because there are the opportunity of
3:38:53things to do and engage in has grown
3:38:55exponentially.
3:38:56Yeah.
3:38:57So, the need to create boundaries and
3:39:00say no has also grown exponentially. And
3:39:02it And those are hard things to do.
3:39:04Like, it takes takes a There There's
3:39:05quite a cognitive load to like turning
3:39:08something down or
3:39:09Mhm.
3:39:10refusing to do something. So,
3:39:12So, yeah. Those are the six types of
3:39:14procrastinators. I think it's it's a
3:39:15little bit useful before we get into all
3:39:17like the specific tips and strategies
3:39:18and stuff. Like, I think it's
3:39:20it's useful to kind of
3:39:22ask yourself where you are and um
3:39:25what you need to fo- what each of us
3:39:27needs to focus on um
3:39:29to improve this for ourselves.
3:39:30Absolutely.
3:39:37All right, Drew. So, now that we've
3:39:39beat people over the head with a trash
3:39:43can full of information,
3:39:45it's time to bring this home. It's time
3:39:46to Now, we get to the end of the show.
3:39:48We get to the part where like, "Okay,
3:39:49what are the takeaways here? Like, what
3:39:51What do we actually use and implement
3:39:54into our lives? How do we actually fight
3:39:55procrastination within ourselves?" And
3:39:57so, you and I, we like to do this
3:39:59section. We like to start this segment
3:40:01of the podcast with a
3:40:03a section that we call the 80/20 of
3:40:05procrastination, which is What is What
3:40:07are the 20% of
3:40:09actions or behaviors that are going to
3:40:11give you 80% of the result? Like, what
3:40:13What's the highest leverage
3:40:14implementation here? So, you and I,
3:40:17we've got a list of a bunch of things,
3:40:18you know, we've
3:40:19we've talked through at this point
3:40:21dozens and dozens of different ideas.
3:40:24These are the most useful, the most
3:40:26verified, the things that have the most
3:40:28evidence behind them. And also the
3:40:30things that you and I have personally
3:40:31found the most leverage with when we've
3:40:33implemented them. So, let's let's go
3:40:35through them one by one. I think it it
3:40:37could be useful kind of returning to
3:40:38that external versus internal framework,
3:40:41like managing your external environment
3:40:42versus uh dealing with your internal
3:40:45environment. Let's start with the
3:40:47external first.
3:40:48Sure.
3:40:48Right? So, what why don't you kick us
3:40:50off? Let's talk about environmental
3:40:52design.
3:40:52That's right.
3:40:53What is a what's a good way to implement
3:40:56design to help with your
3:40:57procrastination?
3:40:58The core premise for of this is altering
3:41:00your surroundings.
3:41:02Um so that the desired behavior that
3:41:05you're targeting is just easier or the
3:41:07one that you don't want to do is much
3:41:09harder.
3:41:09Distractions and stuff like that. Well,
3:41:11so we'll talk about how to do that. So,
3:41:13set up your environment so that uh for
3:41:15success, basically.
3:41:16Um some of the ways like we've mentioned
3:41:19right now, if you've been
3:41:20procrastinating on your diet, don't buy
3:41:22junk food. Don't keep it in the house.
3:41:23That's like an easy win you can have
3:41:25right there. If it's more work related,
3:41:28get your work station set up.
3:41:31Put the phone in the other room.
3:41:33Get all distractions out of out of sight
3:41:35and out of mind. That's that's a good
3:41:37place to start with that. You can use
3:41:39like you you mentioned you use website
3:41:41blockers.
3:41:42There's a lot of software.
3:41:44Um so if you're the type of person who's
3:41:46like prone to just going down email
3:41:48rabbit holes or YouTube rabbit holes or
3:41:51sports website rabbit holes.
3:41:52Right.
3:41:53Um you know, one piece of software is
3:41:54called Freedom. There was another one
3:41:56called uh I believe it was called self
3:41:59or no, it was called Focus.
3:42:01Yeah.
3:42:01There was another one called Control.
3:42:03Uh there's a bunch of them.
3:42:04Use and then there's all sorts of
3:42:05accessibility things like on your
3:42:07phones, like you know, the iPhone and
3:42:08Android they have like these are working
3:42:10hours, so you turn off all the
3:42:12notifications. Honestly, just keep your
3:42:14phone in the other room if if you're
3:42:15really serious about that. But if you
3:42:16need to have it on you, um I would say
3:42:18definitely use those the
3:42:20hack back notifications on your phone,
3:42:22too. I don't know why people like I look
3:42:23at some people's phones and they're just
3:42:25there's like 90 notifications on them.
3:42:27Like why from like an app they
3:42:28downloaded 4 years ago that they don't
3:42:29even use.
3:42:30And turn crazy and turn off your
3:42:32notifications.
3:42:33Just turn them off, yeah.
3:42:34Your text messages, maybe a couple other
3:42:37things and that's it.
3:42:37Yeah, it's it's
3:42:39if your phone is chiming or buzzing all
3:42:42day like you're basically that's like
3:42:44putting crack in front of a crack
3:42:45addict. Like
3:42:46you're doing yourself zero favors.
3:42:49Yeah, I I think I think one thing that's
3:42:51really useful to think about this too.
3:42:52Like there's kind of I would almost put
3:42:54this in two different categories. One is
3:42:57there's actually physically altering
3:42:59your environment. Like I said, get rid
3:43:00of the junk food.
3:43:02One of the things that I like a really
3:43:04extreme example of this
3:43:07that my friend Nir Eyal did. And by the
3:43:09way, his book on this is excellent.
3:43:11Environmental design, go to that. That's
3:43:13the Bible for that.
3:43:14His book Indistractable, it's excellent.
3:43:16If you're if this is if distraction is a
3:43:18huge issue for you, like that is the
3:43:20best book that I can recommend.
3:43:22[clears throat]
3:43:22One thing that he did in his own house
3:43:24is that he put all of his Wi-Fi routers
3:43:27he put on these plugs that you could put
3:43:30on timers.
3:43:31And so he like programmed the timers to
3:43:35shut off I think at like 7:00 p.m. or
3:43:37something every night. And so his like
3:43:39the internet in his house just went off
3:43:41every evening at 7:00 p.m. And
3:43:43it's such a pain in the ass to get up
3:43:45and like replug in the router and like
3:43:47do all this stuff. So he just
3:43:49he never did it. And and he sure enough
3:43:51he stopped using the internet past a
3:43:53certain time and he would start he was
3:43:55reading more books and he was spending
3:43:56more time with his family and
3:43:58he was doing all the behaviors he wanted
3:43:59to do. So there's there's kind of like
3:44:01actual just physically alter your
3:44:03environment. That's kind of the first
3:44:04category. And then the second
3:44:05environment the second category I think
3:44:07is creating rules for yourself. You
3:44:10know, like when you were saying things
3:44:11like, you know, leave your phone in the
3:44:13other room or
3:44:15Um, know,
3:44:16people will say stuff like oh only check
3:44:18email after 2:00 p.m. or something like
3:44:19that. Like it's
3:44:21I think it's really useful to get
3:44:22explicit of like this is a rule that I
3:44:25live by. Like this is a rule that I have
3:44:27for myself
3:44:28um because if you try to I I think the
3:44:31the key principle here is that when you
3:44:33leave it up to your own decision-making
3:44:36you can't trust your own
3:44:37decision-making.
3:44:37Right. And not in the moment at least.
3:44:39Yeah. And not consistently over a long
3:44:41period of time. You might you might get
3:44:42it right the first day or the first
3:44:43week, but like eventually you're going
3:44:45to start making the bad decision. And as
3:44:47soon as you make the bad decision once,
3:44:49that's going to justify every future bad
3:44:51decision. So it's just like you have to
3:44:53create a rule.
3:44:54I'm not allowed to have my phone in my
3:44:56office.
3:44:57Period. [clears throat]
3:44:58Right. Or I don't check social media
3:44:59until after 4:00 or something whatever.
3:45:02Email, too. I only do email at 2:00 or
3:45:043:00 p.m. in the afternoon or at the end
3:45:06of the day once a day. Clear the inbox,
3:45:08then it's done. Yeah.
3:45:09Yeah.
3:45:09Yeah, but and then the physical side the
3:45:11physical environment side, too. There
3:45:12I've done things like
3:45:14well for a long time I really I didn't
3:45:15even have a TV, which just didn't have
3:45:17it in the house. It's like, you know,
3:45:18not having junk food in the house. Same
3:45:20type of deal.
3:45:21I've also in times where it's like okay,
3:45:23I need to get a lot of work done and
3:45:25since I do work from home there are
3:45:26those distractions. So I've taken like
3:45:28the the power cord to my TV and like
3:45:30given it to a friend, right? Like keep
3:45:31it at my friend's [laughter] house. Like
3:45:32I can't even have it. Like
3:45:33Hold on this for the next two weeks.
3:45:36Seriously.
3:45:36I'm just imagining you like ringing a
3:45:37doorbell and just like handing a
3:45:39[laughter] power cable to somebody be
3:45:40like I'm going to come back for this.
3:45:43I think not too far off.
3:45:45[laughter]
3:45:46Um again it goes back to I mentioned
3:45:48earlier that you know
3:45:50that interview I listened to with Piers
3:45:51Steel where he said the people who are
3:45:52most honest about these things
3:45:54Yes.
3:45:55about they they know themselves well
3:45:56enough to be like okay, I know I don't
3:45:59have the requisite willpower to fend off
3:46:02the TV or the fridge or whatever in
3:46:04these certain moments and so I'm just
3:46:06going to accept that. That was another
3:46:07thing is that there's a self-acceptance
3:46:09to environmental design that you have to
3:46:11be really
3:46:12okay with.
3:46:13Right, you have to accept that you're
3:46:14flawed and that and that you're not
3:46:17going to change your own nature. I think
3:46:18that's something, you know, I think a
3:46:20lot of chronic procrastinators, they
3:46:22like have this unreasonable expectation
3:46:24that there is going to be a day where
3:46:26like they are able to turn down every
3:46:28temptation and they are going to be
3:46:30impervious to distraction and they are
3:46:31going to be able to put their phone away
3:46:33whenever they want. It's like, "No,
3:46:34you're not."
3:46:34to happen.
3:46:35You're human. You're not You're not
3:46:36going to You're not going to defeat
3:46:39100,000 years of biology. You're You're
3:46:41just not. So, you might as well work
3:46:44with it
3:46:44Mhm.
3:46:44and create rules and structures and an
3:46:46environment for yourself that like
3:46:48nudges you towards success. I'm curious,
3:46:51like what is your personal
3:46:53biggest environmental design win that
3:46:55you've had?
3:46:56Yeah. Um besides the not keeping junk
3:46:58food in the [clears throat] house, like
3:46:59that's that's a That was a big one. Um
3:47:01but also separating my my workspace from
3:47:04other parts. So, I just have There's one
3:47:05room now in my house that it's just for
3:47:07work. And now I I've seen after a while,
3:47:10it's been a couple of years now that
3:47:11I've had that. It's when I enter that
3:47:12space, that's work space, right? And I
3:47:14try to keep the phone out. I try to do
3:47:16all that. So, uh uh separating your your
3:47:18workspace from your kind of like your
3:47:19play spaces, you know, I guess you could
3:47:21call them. That's been a big one for me,
3:47:23too. Um and then keeping that space So,
3:47:25I and I try to keep it clean because for
3:47:27me anyway, if I see clutter on a desk,
3:47:29that's a reflection of my mind.
3:47:31So, a a big one for me is just uh yeah,
3:47:34using those cues, too. So, it's like
3:47:36it's like I enter that room and my brain
3:47:38automatically goes into work mode.
3:47:39yeah.
3:47:40Yeah. I think that's a big win for me.
3:47:42And it's great cuz now when you leave,
3:47:43you're like,
3:47:44It's done. And I have yeah.
3:47:45Yeah, not worrying about it, not
3:47:46checking email, not yeah.
3:47:48That that [snorts] took a while. Um
3:47:50I've been working remotely for a long
3:47:51time and I've had
3:47:52a boundary issue a little bit of like
3:47:54where does work happen and where does
3:47:56leisure happen? So, yeah. What about
3:47:58you?
3:47:58For me,
3:48:00uh I mean, obviously the junk food
3:48:01stuff's big. The phone [clears throat]
3:48:02stuff has been big in the past. Uh Uh
3:48:06I would actually say a home gym
3:48:08was
3:48:08Oh, yeah. Okay.
3:48:09a absolute game-changer. And it's funny,
3:48:11too, because I remember
3:48:13you know, when I moved to my place here
3:48:15in LA
3:48:16and I started putting together a a
3:48:17little home gym.
3:48:19You know, it's a really small room. It's
3:48:20like half the size of this studio,
3:48:22probably. And so, there's not a whole
3:48:24lot in there. There's just some free
3:48:25weights, a bench, and like a small squat
3:48:27rack.
3:48:28Yeah.
3:48:28[snorts]
3:48:28And I was like, you know,
3:48:29it'll just be kind of cool to have this.
3:48:31I I At first, I did I was going to keep
3:48:33my gym membership, and the idea was like
3:48:35I just kind of work out at home as like
3:48:36the supplement.
3:48:37Yeah.
3:48:38It was such a massive game-changer
3:48:40because it
3:48:42the simplest thing is I no longer had
3:48:44any excuse, right? It's like come home
3:48:46at 5:30, I'm tired, long day of work or
3:48:49whatever, big day of shooting.
3:48:51And I'm like, ah, I should work out
3:48:53today.
3:48:54Like normally, I'd be like, well, I
3:48:56don't want to get back in my car and go
3:48:57to the gym and change and like do all
3:48:59this thing and shower and all this
3:49:00stuff. And then it's like, no, now
3:49:03the gym's like 20 ft away,
3:49:04Like
3:49:04You have no excuse.
3:49:06Go do it. It doesn't matter what time it
3:49:08is, it doesn't matter how tired you are,
3:49:10it's right there. You can get something
3:49:11in.
3:49:12And at first, it was a little bit of
3:49:14like a
3:49:16it's like, ah.
3:49:17Why did I do this to myself? But now I'm
3:49:19I'm just so happy it's there. And
3:49:20actually, I quit I canceled my gym
3:49:22membership like within a month or two
3:49:23cuz I'm just like, this is so easy and
3:49:25it's so even dumb things like um
3:49:29you know, like I'll be like sitting on
3:49:30my couch
3:49:31watching a TV show with my wife, and
3:49:34she'll get up, you know, we'll pause it,
3:49:35and she'll get up and have to go do
3:49:37something for 10 minutes. I'm like,
3:49:38wonder how many pull-ups I can do.
3:49:40Bust out a few girls.
3:49:42Yeah, and I just like walk into the gym
3:49:43and start doing pull-ups. I'm like, ah,
3:49:44all right. Yeah, it's not bad, you know?
3:49:46Like it's just it has been such like
3:49:48just having it right there, the
3:49:50convenience, the ease, and the
3:49:52elimination of like all the friction of
3:49:53like having to like
3:49:55get dressed, get in the car, go,
3:49:57get a gym bag, all that stuff. So,
3:49:59home gym, huge up. Even if it's like
3:50:02small and simple and like not not
3:50:05doesn't have all the equipment that a
3:50:07like a normal gym would have,
3:50:09huge game changer.
3:50:10Yeah. Yeah.
3:50:11Yeah, so I think the big kind of
3:50:13takeaway from this then is using
3:50:15friction strategically. Remove it for
3:50:17the things that you want to do, like
3:50:19have a home gym. It's friction less you
3:50:21get right into there.
3:50:22Yep.
3:50:22And then add it to places where you
3:50:23don't want to do a behavior. Don't have
3:50:25junk food and that there's a whole bunch
3:50:26of friction with not have I got to go
3:50:28all the way to the grocery store just to
3:50:29get a bag of chips or or you know,
3:50:31a candy bar or whatever.
3:50:33Strategic friction is really the key
3:50:35here, I think. Yeah.
3:50:36Yeah. And it can even go as far like
3:50:38one thing I learned
3:50:40when I was kind of going through my
3:50:41health journey, don't go grocery
3:50:43shopping when you're hungry.
3:50:44Oh, yeah.
3:50:45Yeah.
3:50:45Like that's a good that's an easy one.
3:50:46And then also another one like
3:50:49this this one my my health coach pushed
3:50:51onto me cuz I'm like, well, yeah, you
3:50:52know, and then I'm in the grocery store
3:50:54and I I've got my list, but then I would
3:50:55start walking through the aisles, I see
3:50:56all this stuff that looks good. And he
3:50:58was like, you know what? Don't even go.
3:51:00Mhm.
3:51:00[clears throat]
3:51:00Sign up for Instacart.
3:51:01Yeah.
3:51:02Put your list in when you're like while
3:51:05you're eating lunch, while you're full,
3:51:07put your list into Instacart. Don't even
3:51:09give your yourself the chance Again,
3:51:12it's like removing those decision
3:51:13points. Like the the the the more brain
3:51:16dead simple you can make the good
3:51:17behavior,
3:51:18the more likely it is to happen.
3:51:20Yeah. Absolutely.
3:51:20Cool.
3:51:22So, similar to environmental design,
3:51:25um
3:51:25another big one is social
3:51:26accountability.
3:51:27Mhm.
3:51:28We talked a little bit about the
3:51:29confusionism
3:51:31and you know, we've we've kind of
3:51:34skirted around this, you know, with all
3:51:36the talk of
3:51:37of emotions and behaviorism and
3:51:41conditioning and all this stuff, the ego
3:51:43stuff.
3:51:44We haven't addressed it really directly,
3:51:46but like it is worth understanding that
3:51:48probably the strongest driver of our
3:51:51emotions, period, is other people,
3:51:54right? It's the people in our lives that
3:51:56we like, that we trust, that we respect,
3:51:58that we want to win the respect of or
3:52:01the trust of, uh
3:52:03they are some of the strongest levers on
3:52:05our own behavior. And
3:52:08you can utilize that. I mean, first of
3:52:10all, on a very abstract level is
3:52:13being conscious of who you let into your
3:52:15life. You know, there there's this old
3:52:17saying that you are the average of the
3:52:19five closest people to you. Um I think
3:52:22there's a lot of evidence that that is
3:52:23true, right? It's like if the five
3:52:25closest people to you in your life have
3:52:26absolute habits and they get
3:52:28nothing done and they're always
3:52:31complaining and laying around on on the
3:52:32couch and brain rotting, like
3:52:35that is going to nudge you into those
3:52:37behaviors because that is what is going
3:52:39to get you social validation and
3:52:40approval. And fundamentally, we're
3:52:42human, we all need social validation and
3:52:44approval. So, surrounding yourself by
3:52:46people that you admire,
3:52:48people that have good work habits, good
3:52:50health habits, that have the habits that
3:52:53you wish you could have,
3:52:55just by spending more time with them,
3:52:56you are more likely to adapt a lot of
3:52:58those behaviors. But then on a very like
3:53:00tactical level,
3:53:02finding somebody who has the same goal
3:53:03as you and is also struggling with that
3:53:05goal is and then like working on it
3:53:08together, it it's just your your chance
3:53:10of success rises exponentially. Like the
3:53:12difference between, say, um
3:53:16I don't know, trying to learn a new
3:53:17language by yourself and trying to learn
3:53:19a new language with a friend, your
3:53:22chance of success is going to like five
3:53:24or 10x if you do it with a friend. And I
3:53:26think that's true of pretty much
3:53:27anything. And a big part of that is just
3:53:29more fun and interesting, which we'll
3:53:31get to in a second.
3:53:32But I think the biggest thing is just
3:53:33accountability. Like you don't want to
3:53:35be the who like
3:53:37skips French class. Like you don't want
3:53:39to be the You don't want to be the the
3:53:41dick that like paid for, uh you know,
3:53:44convinced your friends to like join a
3:53:46CrossFit gym with you and then never
3:53:47shows up. Like it just That's
3:53:49embarrassing. That loses respect. That,
3:53:52you know, people stop trusting you as
3:53:54much. And so like that is a huge lever
3:53:56that you can pull within your own brain.
3:53:58I do have a quick story about this. Um
3:54:00so that friend that we mentioned
3:54:01earlier, uh Nir Eyal and that book I
3:54:03recommended, Indistractable. So he he
3:54:06was writing that book while I was
3:54:08writing my second book, Everything is
3:54:10And we were both having trouble
3:54:11finishing our books.
3:54:13And so we agreed that we were going to
3:54:16meet up, I think it was twice a week,
3:54:19for writing sessions.
3:54:20And we set Basically we both gave
3:54:22ourselves the deadline of the end of the
3:54:24year. I think this is 2018.
3:54:26And we made a bet that if I don't
3:54:29remember how much money it was, but it
3:54:30was like if one of us finished our books
3:54:33and the other one didn't, we had to give
3:54:35whoever didn't finish the book had to
3:54:36give the other one, I think it was like
3:54:37$5,000 or $10,000. It was like a very
3:54:40painful amount of money.
3:54:42It was a very painful amount of money.
3:54:44Yeah.
3:54:44And we like wrote it down and like had
3:54:46like a contract and everything and and
3:54:49and we did it. And it it was
3:54:52I mean we both we both got it done. I
3:54:54mean like let's just put it this way, we
3:54:56we we were more effective I think in
3:54:58those four or five months than we were
3:54:59like the entire year prior to that. So.
3:55:02I I've heard Nir tell that story to
3:55:04people and he said his hand was shaking
3:55:06when he handed it to you.
3:55:07[laughter]
3:55:08Like I cuz I think you each wrote a
3:55:09check or something or a contract or
3:55:11whatever it was. He was like "My hand
3:55:12was shaking when I handed it I handed it
3:55:14over because it is that powerful." But
3:55:16think about that emotional space he had
3:55:18to be in for for that. He's like "Oh
3:55:19god, and and now my ass is on the line."
3:55:21Yeah, and it was it's funny because
3:55:24there was kind of that looming threat of
3:55:26like "Oh my god, I have to get this
3:55:27done." But it it actually turned I mean
3:55:29he and I are really close friends now
3:55:31and a lot of it is because of that
3:55:33because we started meeting up and
3:55:34writing together every week.
3:55:35[clears throat] And
3:55:36and it and it just became there was a
3:55:38lot of kind of soft accountability that
3:55:40happened in the interim, right? Like
3:55:41there were you know, it's like I'd go
3:55:43over there on a Monday and we'd spend a
3:55:45few hours writing and
3:55:47and then afterwards we'd have lunch and
3:55:48kind of look at each other and be like,
3:55:49"Well, how'd your session go?" And be
3:55:51like, "Oh man, I didn't
3:55:52it was a disaster. Like, I got nothing
3:55:55was usable, right?" And then we kind of
3:55:56talk through it and be like, "Oh yeah,
3:55:57that's how last week was for me, but
3:55:59like today was pretty good, you know?"
3:56:00And like it was just nice to like
3:56:03validate each other and reassure each
3:56:06other cuz you know, it's if stuff like
3:56:07that happens when you're by yourself,
3:56:09like let's say you have a horrible
3:56:10writing session or a horrible workout or
3:56:12something,
3:56:13again, the tendency is like the the
3:56:15inner funhouse mirror warps it so so it
3:56:18feels more catastrophic than it is.
3:56:20Whereas, when you're with somebody else,
3:56:21they're like, "Oh yeah, I've been there.
3:56:23Yeah, I felt that way last week, but you
3:56:25know, you you just try again, and it'll
3:56:27[clears throat] be fine." Um you know,
3:56:29it's like having other people around
3:56:30reminds you that it's not as big of a
3:56:33deal as you think it is or
3:56:35things aren't falling apart the way you
3:56:37fear they are.
3:56:38Yeah, and and I want to highlight
3:56:39something you already mentioned um with
3:56:41regard to that though, but finding
3:56:43people who are in a similar situation
3:56:44and and place that you are is really
3:56:46important in this case, too. Yes, you
3:56:47can find somebody who's like, you know,
3:56:48get an accountability coach, like
3:56:49somebody who's
3:56:51fitness or something like that who's
3:56:52really good and they're way advanced
3:56:53than you. There's some accountability
3:56:54there, but I think it's a lot more
3:56:57enjoyable and relatable when you find
3:56:58people who are at a similar um
3:57:01spot as you are. For example, too, like
3:57:03when I started CrossFit, it was me and
3:57:04two friends. Um we started and both of
3:57:06us all of us none of us had done
3:57:07CrossFit before. All of us kind of
3:57:09probably hadn't been in a gym for a
3:57:10little while.
3:57:12And so, there is that kind of
3:57:13commiseration that I'll do around it and
3:57:15you're like, "Oh, this person's in the
3:57:16same spot, struggling with the same
3:57:18thing that I am." And you kind of feel
3:57:19that sense of community around it. So, I
3:57:21think that's really important, too,
3:57:21something to highlight.
3:57:22Yeah, and it's funny cuz we talked a
3:57:24little bit about how like students are
3:57:25the biggest procrastinators, and it's
3:57:28funny because
3:57:30this is the easiest solve for them, you
3:57:32know? Like
3:57:33you are constantly surrounded by people
3:57:35who in the exact same situation as you,
3:57:37struggling with the exact same
3:57:38procrastination as you are. And my first
3:57:41two years, well, first year first year
3:57:44of college I I was at music school but
3:57:46you know first year out of music school
3:57:48my grades were okay like
3:57:51up and down
3:57:52um
3:57:53but then my last three years I I was
3:57:55like a straight A student and the
3:57:57primary reason it was two of these
3:57:58things that we've talked about already.
3:58:00The first thing that I did is that I
3:58:01realized that like if I went back to my
3:58:03dorm
3:58:04zero studying would happen like
3:58:06absolutely nothing would happen there
3:58:08you know the guys down the hall be
3:58:09playing poker or something and the next
3:58:10thing you know I'm at a party on a
3:58:12Tuesday night and then I'm like drinking
3:58:13till 4:00 a.m. So like nothing useful
3:58:15would happen at the dorm. So I
3:58:17eventually developed a rule for myself
3:58:19that when my classes ended
3:58:21I had to go to the library and I had to
3:58:24spend at least two hours at the library.
3:58:26Didn't matter if I just sat there like
3:58:28stared at the wall I had to go to the
3:58:30library and sure enough once I'm in the
3:58:32library it's like well I got all my
3:58:34books I might as well like start
3:58:36studying or you know do that as like
3:58:38start working on that assignment that's
3:58:39due in two weeks that you know I haven't
3:58:41really thought about and I started doing
3:58:44that and sure enough like grades
3:58:46immediately went through the roof and
3:58:49then you know jump a year to ahead later
3:58:51and I like started telling some of my
3:58:53friends like oh yeah I have this rule I
3:58:55just go to the library and a bunch of
3:58:57people I knew were like can I come with
3:58:58you?
3:58:59I'm like yeah sure I'll be there at 1:00
3:59:01p.m. on Thursday like I'll be there till
3:59:02at least 3:00 and like sure enough bunch
3:59:04of my friends started coming and meeting
3:59:06me at the library and and
3:59:08again it's that account accountability
3:59:10right? It's like well my friend's there
3:59:12she's studying for her history exam like
3:59:16I'm going to look like an idiot if I'm
3:59:17not studying for my exam so I might as
3:59:19well study for my exam and you just
3:59:21again you you start nudging yourself
3:59:23into the right behaviors.
3:59:25I had a very similar experience
3:59:26[laughter] in college too like yeah I
3:59:27wasn't very good at studying the first
3:59:29year or two and then after that I did
3:59:30find
3:59:31like especially in the more difficult
3:59:33classes you'd find a group of people in
3:59:35there and be like hey we're going to
3:59:36meet at the library It was always that.
3:59:37And that like I look back on college, I
3:59:39remember those study groups very, very
3:59:42vividly. Like and so leveraging that
3:59:44too, just the social connection that you
3:59:46get really brings it all home, too.
3:59:48It's strange how it like Yeah, it
3:59:50becomes fun. Yeah. I don't know, like
3:59:51when you when you're young, you kind of
3:59:53think like you need to be like drunk or
3:59:54doing something crazy to have fun.
3:59:57No, seriously, like a stats class that
3:59:59we took that was just horrible horrible.
4:00:01Our study group that went to the library
4:00:02all the time. Like I remember that we
4:00:03had a lot of fun.
4:00:04Yeah.
4:00:05About stats, you know, like yeah.
4:00:06Yeah, absolutely.
4:00:07Nerd.
4:00:08[laughter]
4:00:10Totally was.
4:00:12[gasps]
4:00:12Cool. All right, so that's the external
4:00:14stuff. Those are the external factors
4:00:15that we can manipulate to help our own
4:00:17procrastination. Let's start talking
4:00:18about the internal stuff. Um
4:00:20you know, so let's let's start with the
4:00:22big question. I think you
4:00:25let's take let's take opposite starting
4:00:26points. Why why don't you start with
4:00:28like the big hairy questions and then
4:00:29I'll I'll kind of like
4:00:31break it down into the small questions.
4:00:33Okay. Okay. Well, first we we talked
4:00:36about purpose and finding a why for your
4:00:38actions, [clears throat] right? And I
4:00:40think that's just foundational and
4:00:42fundamental as we already discussed to
4:00:44getting things done. And that there I
4:00:46mean, procrastination kind of becomes an
4:00:48afterthought when you really have a
4:00:49strong purpose tied to what your daily
4:00:51actions, right? Um so
4:00:54you reconnecting whatever task or job or
4:00:57whatever it is to a deeper sense of
4:00:59meaning and purpose and what is this
4:01:01doing for me in my life that is going to
4:01:03bring like a greater sense of purpose
4:01:04and all things. That I'm starting there.
4:01:07So kind of finding your why, the Simon
4:01:08Sinek thing, you know, you could
4:01:11dig into that. Why why is something
4:01:13important to you? Really digging into
4:01:16the reasons like, okay, why is this I
4:01:17have this job or I have this task or
4:01:20I have this creative project I want and
4:01:22finding the underlying drive and value
4:01:24that you associate with that. So go back
4:01:27and listen to the first episode on
4:01:28values, that'll give you a very good
4:01:30foundation for this as well.
4:01:31Yeah.
4:01:31Um, but starting there, starting with
4:01:34why, why am I doing any of this? And
4:01:36like really getting into and digging
4:01:38into, playing the why game with yourself
4:01:40like a 3-year-old, why why why am I
4:01:41doing this? Why why why? I think that's
4:01:43a really good place to start anyway,
4:01:44yeah.
4:01:45I think too like
4:01:47having a basic understanding of like
4:01:48what a good
4:01:50why is versus a bad why.
4:01:52Oh, yeah, we didn't really talk about
4:01:53that, did we? Yeah.
4:01:54Um,
4:01:55but I generally speaking I think I think
4:01:57the best way to characterize like a good
4:01:58why is that it's something that is
4:02:01bigger or more important than yourself.
4:02:03You know, I think if you if you dig down
4:02:05and ultimately you find that your why
4:02:08is just pointing back at you. It's
4:02:10[clears throat] like, oh, I'm doing this
4:02:11just because I want people to respect me
4:02:13or
4:02:14I'm doing this because I want to
4:02:16impress, right, you know, this group of
4:02:19people that I wish were impressed by me
4:02:21or, you know, whatever.
4:02:23You're that's going to be a weak why.
4:02:25And generally the strongest whys are the
4:02:27sorts of things that you're like, you
4:02:28know what? I don't matter.
4:02:30Mhm.
4:02:30Right?
4:02:30[clears throat]
4:02:31I will do anything for my kid or I will
4:02:33do anything for my church or I will do
4:02:36anything for
4:02:38the environment. You know, like it's
4:02:39it's like when you find something that
4:02:41is greater and more important than
4:02:43yourself that even if you die, you hope
4:02:46it continues on past you.
4:02:48[clears throat]
4:02:48Like that is generally indicative of of
4:02:51some some a good form of why. The other
4:02:54good form of why I would say is
4:02:56is around creativity. Like it it like if
4:02:58there's an action that you appreciate
4:03:01just in and of itself. Like if it's
4:03:03um, if it's something that you would do
4:03:06if nobody was watching and nobody knew
4:03:08you did it.
4:03:09Mhm.
4:03:10Right? Like [clears throat] it's it's
4:03:12then that's probably a good why. It's
4:03:13just like the pure enjoyment and
4:03:15satisfaction of that thing, right? It's
4:03:17like I would still
4:03:19play music if nobody ever heard me play.
4:03:22It's just because it's like the pure joy
4:03:24and satisfaction of playing is is
4:03:26fundamentally uh, enriching in my life.
4:03:30That's a good why as well. You know,
4:03:31it's like
4:03:33try to stay aligned with that.
4:03:34Right. Yeah, we talked a little bit
4:03:36about in this section too. We talked a
4:03:38little bit about this.
4:03:39Where if you do start out with a why
4:03:42that
4:03:43you later find that oh, this isn't very
4:03:45good why.
4:03:46The example I gave anyway was yeah, I
4:03:47started working out because I wanted to
4:03:48look good, right? And then but
4:03:50eventually did change into something
4:03:52else. Sometimes that can happen. So,
4:03:54sometimes we need to abandon something
4:03:56if we don't have a good why for it, but
4:03:57sometimes the why can change too, right?
4:04:00So, like in that case, it changed from
4:04:02my vanity
4:04:04which is if I'm honest, it's still
4:04:05important to me, right? On some level,
4:04:08but really the what it grew into was oh,
4:04:10this is a lifelong skill that I'm
4:04:12developing that's going to help me until
4:04:14the day I die.
4:04:15Right.
4:04:15Basically. Like hopefully I'm going to
4:04:17be one of those 80-year-old people like
4:04:18my
4:04:19great uncle who I'm out still out there
4:04:20skiing and I can, you know, do the
4:04:22splits and all of that kind of stuff.
4:04:23So, your your why can change, but
4:04:26sometimes you also just need to let
4:04:27something go because it's just there's
4:04:29no foundation for it. Your your why and
4:04:31your purpose.
4:04:31I think that's a really good really good
4:04:33point though is that like those those
4:04:35weaker whys don't go away.
4:04:37Yeah. Yeah.
4:04:38You just need to find the bigger
4:04:39stronger one. Like
4:04:41[clears throat]
4:04:41yeah, you you never will stop caring.
4:04:43You you will always want, you know,
4:04:46the cute boy or girl to like find you
4:04:48attractive. [clears throat] You will
4:04:49always want respect from your peers. You
4:04:51will always want to impress certain
4:04:53people. Like that that's a very natural
4:04:54and human thing. It's just like that's
4:04:56not sufficient. You need to find
4:04:58something bigger than that because if if
4:04:59that's your only why, then you're you're
4:05:02just on a very ugly treadmill and it's
4:05:05it's not going to get any slower.
4:05:06Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay, so yeah,
4:05:09zoom in a little bit.
4:05:10So, zoom in is so we're going that
4:05:11that's the super big picture. Now
4:05:13cutting in super super tight.
4:05:15[clears throat]
4:05:15Um
4:05:16I have this concept that I I've called
4:05:18for many years the minimum viable action
4:05:20which is this is this is the breaking
4:05:22down or or chunking down, you know,
4:05:24actions into a smaller component pieces.
4:05:26I call the minimum viable action because
4:05:28it's basically what you do is you take
4:05:30whatever you're procrastinating,
4:05:32you break it down into sub actions,
4:05:36and then you continue to break it down
4:05:38to the point where it stops feeling
4:05:39intimidating. And then the
4:05:41the point where it stops feeling
4:05:42intimidating, then you say, "Okay, cool.
4:05:44I'll go do that." So, really simple
4:05:46examples like let's say I want to
4:05:48develop a meditation practice.
4:05:50And I wake up one morning and I'm like,
4:05:52"Oh, man.
4:05:5320 minutes of meditation, like that's a
4:05:56huge pain in the ass." And it's like,
4:05:58"Okay, well, let's break that down."
4:05:59Like
4:06:00what about 5 minutes of meditation? It's
4:06:02like, "Uh
4:06:03yeah, it's still kind of like okay, what
4:06:05about 1 minute of meditation, right?"
4:06:07Like just go sit on the floor.
4:06:09You don't even have to
4:06:10Yeah, just sit on the floor and just do
4:06:12like 30 seconds. It's like, "Okay, yeah,
4:06:14that's not intimidating." So, then you
4:06:16go do that. And then what you find is
4:06:18that once you do the tiny action, once
4:06:20you're on the floor for 30 seconds, then
4:06:23you're like, "Well, I can do 5 minutes."
4:06:25And then you do the 5 minutes, and then
4:06:26you're like,
4:06:28"I could do 10." You know, and then you
4:06:29do 10, and you're like, "Ah, I could do
4:06:3120." Or maybe not, you know, maybe you
4:06:32just do the 10. But at least you did 10,
4:06:34cuz 10 before you were in a place where
4:06:37it was either zero or 20,
4:06:39if you sit down and do 5, that's better
4:06:41than zero, right? So, the minimum viable
4:06:43action is always it helps guarantee that
4:06:45something gets done. Even if it's not as
4:06:47much as you would hope or imagine,
4:06:51it's just that something gets done. I've
4:06:53applied this
4:06:54in almost every area of my business and
4:06:57my productivity. Like this is just
4:06:59this is my absolute go-to in my personal
4:07:02life. Anything that I am struggling with
4:07:04or I'm I'm delaying, this is the first
4:07:06thing that I go to. Because I'm like,
4:07:08"How can I break this down into
4:07:09something that's not intimidating?" So,
4:07:11with workouts, I did this just the other
4:07:13night. We had a long shoot day.
4:07:15I got home like 6:00 p.m.
4:07:17I'm like, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I'm
4:07:20supposed to work out today. I don't want
4:07:21to do this And I like looked at my
4:07:23workout and I was like, you know what?
4:07:25Just do one set
4:07:26Mhm.
4:07:26of each [clears throat] exercise. Like
4:07:27you don't have to do the full workout,
4:07:29just do one set of each exercise. And I
4:07:30was like, all right, I can do that.
4:07:32And yeah, I did one set of each
4:07:33exercise. And that's better than
4:07:35nothing, right? You know, when I'm
4:07:37writing a book, books are really
4:07:39intimidating. And some days you sit down
4:07:41and you're just like, I don't know how
4:07:42to start this chapter.
4:07:45I feel like this whole section is
4:07:46terrible. I don't want to deal with this
4:07:48right now. And I just look at it and I
4:07:50say,
4:07:52just write one sentence. Just to just
4:07:54put together one non-shitty sentence.
4:07:57Like doesn't have to be good, doesn't
4:07:58have to sing, you don't have to be
4:07:59Hemingway. Like just put together a
4:08:01sentence that like makes that is
4:08:04readable. Right? And then you start
4:08:05there and you're like, okay, well that
4:08:07I kind of know what the next sentence is
4:08:09and
4:08:10well, let me just finish this paragraph.
4:08:11And you know, next thing you know,
4:08:12you've got two pages written. So.
4:08:15Minimum viable action, use that momentum
4:08:17to carry you forward. To me, this is
4:08:20like the most the biggest tactical hack
4:08:22that I've kind of ever found, you know,
4:08:24aside from the environmental stuff. Like
4:08:25this is the biggest tactical hack that
4:08:27I've ever found for my own
4:08:28procrastination.
4:08:29Yeah. Yeah, you've been recommending
4:08:31this one for a very long time in
4:08:32a long time.
4:08:33many different ways. And
4:08:34what really clicked for me when doing
4:08:36this episode was that
4:08:40how that really helps with the the
4:08:43emotional side of this. So, what you're
4:08:45really addressing is kind of like this
4:08:47overwhelm
4:08:48Yes.
4:08:48that happens when you have this big task
4:08:49in front of you. And we mentioned in the
4:08:52previously, you know, it was actually
4:08:54this kind of came out of the time
4:08:55management crowd, which a little bit
4:08:57surprising.
4:08:58But if you think about it, they went
4:08:59from, okay, we're in a factory, you
4:09:01know, we're going to build a car, but we
4:09:02have to break that process down.
4:09:04Yeah.
4:09:04And so they're like, this is, you know,
4:09:05this is how you should do it. What they
4:09:07missed was it's because it's an
4:09:08emotional problem, not a tactical
4:09:10rational problem. It's an emotional
4:09:12problem. You have this big huge task in
4:09:13front of you and you need to break it
4:09:14down into more manageable emotions that
4:09:17are attached to this task, right?
4:09:19Like we keep saying, procrastination is
4:09:21an emotional problem.
4:09:23Self-control is an emotion emotional
4:09:24problem. Like this is not a it's not a
4:09:26problem of information, it's not a
4:09:27problem of motivation. It is a emotional
4:09:29problem. It's managing your own
4:09:30expectations, managing your own
4:09:32self-perception. And so yeah, this is
4:09:34just
4:09:35the most effective trick that I've ever
4:09:37come across to do that.
4:09:38Yeah, and with the minimum viable
4:09:40actions too. Don't underestimate like a
4:09:42small win.
4:09:43The impact of a small win.
4:09:45That can have an outsized emotional
4:09:46impact on you.
4:09:47Especially if you go from man, I'm just
4:09:49not feeling like I'm getting anything
4:09:50done to even just getting one or two
4:09:51things done, it's a huge don't don't
4:09:53underestimate that. It's not linear.
4:09:55It's it's exponential in how good that
4:09:57feels.
4:09:57Absolutely. Yeah, not not to get off on
4:09:59the too much of a tangent, but like I
4:10:00yeah, I've noticed that
4:10:02so much throughout my career that like
4:10:04you'll get these people who have been
4:10:06stagnant for a long time. And I think
4:10:09what happens when you feel stuck and
4:10:12stagnant is that you start developing
4:10:14the story in your head that like I've
4:10:16got to do this drastic thing to turn my
4:10:18life around. And it's like actually no,
4:10:19dude, you just need to go get like yeah,
4:10:22go get a couple small wins under your
4:10:23belt. Like [clears throat]
4:10:25that will actually that that will move
4:10:27mountains for you. Like it just it will
4:10:29open things up for you way way way more
4:10:32than you would ever anticipate. So
4:10:34absolutely 100%. All right, what's the
4:10:36next one?
4:10:37Okay, yeah. So the next one is
4:10:39addressing those underlying emotions.
4:10:41This is kind of the crux of it. This is
4:10:44where we want to end up and be able to
4:10:47really address what's going on, dig into
4:10:50what's going on. Why are we putting this
4:10:51task off? Why are we anxious about it?
4:10:53Why are we angry about it? Why are we
4:10:54bored? What's so painful about this
4:10:56task?
4:10:57And addressing those emotions that we
4:10:59attach to these dreadful tasks that we
4:11:01have to do or perceived [clears throat]
4:11:02dreadful tasks. So we talked about the
4:11:04the rain method. This is one way.
4:11:07It's really just more about mindfulness,
4:11:08though. Um being aware, so your your
4:11:10RAIN method, remember to recognize,
4:11:12allow, investigate, and non-attachment
4:11:14to those emotions. So, it it's just a
4:11:17way to be more mindful at every single
4:11:19stage of what's going on during
4:11:20procrastination.
4:11:21Yeah.
4:11:22And you can I mean, there's there's
4:11:23different ways uh you could be more
4:11:25mindful around this, but this I I've
4:11:27found anyway just on a moment-to-moment
4:11:29basis when that does pop up, this is a
4:11:31really good way to just get like really
4:11:33get in there and be like, "Okay, what's
4:11:34going on here? Why am I feeling this
4:11:36way? Where am I feeling this uh in my
4:11:38body? Why am I feeling it there?"
4:11:39Mhm.
4:11:40All the things you think about when you
4:11:41we hear about mindfulness practices
4:11:42that's uh yeah, that's how you can start
4:11:45to address the underlying emotions.
4:11:46And I I think it's important to
4:11:48emphasize
4:11:49cuz
4:11:50I imagine that there's some subset of
4:11:52listeners right now who like just went
4:11:55through 4 hours of
4:11:57information in the history of
4:11:58procrastination and acrasia. Uh
4:12:01and they get to the end and they're
4:12:02like, "Ah, it's about emotions."
4:12:04[laughter]
4:12:06Are you
4:12:06[gasps]
4:12:06You mean I got to go to therapy to like
4:12:08get my work
4:12:09Yeah.
4:12:09done?
4:12:09Yeah.
4:12:09like, "No No, you don't have to."
4:12:11No.
4:12:11Like
4:12:12Sure, it would help, but like you you
4:12:13don't have to. Like this is Ultimately,
4:12:16it's more about it's not about fixing
4:12:19your emotions or like solving your
4:12:20emotions. It's more about
4:12:23becoming aware and accepting of your
4:12:25emotions, like not being hijacked by
4:12:27your emotions.
4:12:28Just like as you said, like recognizing
4:12:31what's going on beneath the surface
4:12:33so that you can work with it instead of
4:12:34against it, right? So, if anxiety comes
4:12:36up, you can like
4:12:38alter the action or the expectation in
4:12:40your head and to until you get it to a
4:12:42point where it's not so anxiety-inducing
4:12:45or, you know, or if there's like a
4:12:47despair or sadness or whatever, like you
4:12:49can kind of play with you know, your
4:12:51goals or or your
4:12:53the the way you approach an activity to
4:12:56to try to find a way that makes it a
4:12:58little bit more exciting or fun for
4:12:59yourself. So, like it's just
4:13:01until you're aware of the emotion that's
4:13:03that's underlying the the
4:13:05procrastination, you can't really
4:13:08adapt to it or use [clears throat] it in
4:13:10any useful way.
4:13:11Yeah, and I mean, a lot of this, too,
4:13:13this
4:13:14these all tie together, right? And so,
4:13:16if you have like a an environment that's
4:13:18bringing up a lot of these emotions,
4:13:19too, fixing that will help. But again,
4:13:22it it still just goes back to the
4:13:23mindfulness part of that. You have to be
4:13:25aware of those triggers in your
4:13:26environment, or maybe it's a person or
4:13:28uh you know, work situation. That
4:13:30happens a lot, too. Um but yeah,
4:13:34becoming more self-awareness. We talk a
4:13:36lot about self-awareness in a lot of
4:13:37different areas. And um
4:13:39that's a skill too that you develop over
4:13:42time. And self-awareness around why you
4:13:45do and don't do things.
4:13:47I think that you have to find some
4:13:49method, whether that's through more
4:13:51meditation, or maybe you do need to go
4:13:52through to therapy just to get a little
4:13:54more self-aware around your emotions.
4:13:57But at the end of the day, yes, I'm
4:13:59sorry.
4:14:00[laughter]
4:14:00It's about emotions, and you do have to
4:14:02address them. You have to figure out a
4:14:03way to address them. And it it again, it
4:14:05goes back to being honest with yourself.
4:14:07Like, me, I just know that there's
4:14:09certain things that I do procrastinate
4:14:11that I like and I have these emotions
4:14:13that I don't like around them, but I was
4:14:15like, "Look, accept that. That's just
4:14:17how it's going to be, and it's probably
4:14:18never going to change. I'm never going
4:14:19to have this like real big excitement
4:14:21to, I don't know, clean my house or
4:14:23whatever it is, but
4:14:24that's okay. You got You got to work
4:14:26with that.
4:14:26So, you're telling me there's no Notion
4:14:28template to solve my my anxiety issues?
4:14:31I've tried them all.
4:14:32I have [laughter] tried them all. That's
4:14:34That's a good point you make, though.
4:14:35That's a million-dollar idea.
4:14:38Get this Notion template to solve all of
4:14:40your anxiety issues.
4:14:41[laughter]
4:14:42I I I think that's a way we avoid the
4:14:45underlying emotions around all of this.
4:14:47It's trying like we've we've talked
4:14:48about this, dude. Trying to find the new
4:14:50app or the new system or whatever it is.
4:14:52Oh, yeah.
4:14:52This that that is avoidance. That is not
4:14:55addressing the underlying emotions here.
4:14:56You're I recognize that what you're
4:14:58doing in that situation is you're
4:15:00saying, "I want a way around
4:15:02this uncomfortable feeling.
4:15:03Mhm.
4:15:04Please just [clears throat] give me the
4:15:05fix. Just give me the one thing, the one
4:15:06hack, the one trick." It's not there.
4:15:09It's the appearance of progress without
4:15:10actual progress.
4:15:11Yeah, 100% for sure.
4:15:13Well, let's talk about how I deal with
4:15:15my unpleasant emotions, which is I just
4:15:17find a way to make it fun.
4:15:18Yeah. Yeah.
4:15:20Party boy [snorts] Mark.
4:15:21Yeah, there you go.
4:15:22[laughter]
4:15:23Uh so,
4:15:25uh friend of the show Ali Abdaal has a
4:15:27great book about this called feel feel
4:15:28good productivity. And I I for me,
4:15:31my favorite thing about that book it it
4:15:33it's one of it was reading that book it
4:15:35was one of those things that that
4:15:37I had personally believed and felt for a
4:15:39long time, but I didn't really know how
4:15:41to say it and I'd never really seen it
4:15:43said well anywhere else. And I feel like
4:15:45he was kind of the first person to say
4:15:46it, which is like
4:15:47you can find a way to make boring things
4:15:49fun. There are actual ways that you can
4:15:52apply certain principles that just make
4:15:54something that's that's drudgery feel
4:15:56more interesting. I think you mentioned
4:15:58CrossFit earlier. I think CrossFit is
4:15:59like a prime example of this, right?
4:16:02Like most people don't enjoy working
4:16:04out. So, what did CrossFit do? They
4:16:06gamified it. Like they created systems
4:16:09and achievements and goals and and
4:16:11challenges and they have you track your
4:16:13progress over time and then they put you
4:16:15in a social environment. They put you in
4:16:17teams and the teams are competing
4:16:18against each other. Like these are all
4:16:20just like really basic how to make it
4:16:22fun 101
4:16:23Mhm.
4:16:24techniques.
4:16:25And you can do this with anything. You
4:16:26can gamify anything. You can track
4:16:28progress on anything. You can
4:16:30um
4:16:31again, if you've got social
4:16:33accountability, you know, you you can
4:16:34set up a little game with your friend of
4:16:36like, "Okay, let's see who can study
4:16:37more hours this week." or um "Who can
4:16:40learn more French words this month?" You
4:16:43know, create little friendly
4:16:44competitions between yourself and
4:16:45somebody and um
4:16:47track your progress over time, create
4:16:50little rewards and incentives for
4:16:51yourself. It It's, you know, human
4:16:54nature is pretty simple and if you
4:16:56understand how to how to leverage it,
4:16:59um,
4:16:59you know, you you can get a lot further.
4:17:01Yeah. What what are some of the
4:17:02examples? I don't use this one as much.
4:17:04Maybe I hate fun or something. I don't
4:17:05know. [laughter] But
4:17:07what are some examples of specific
4:17:08examples you've used or you've been on a
4:17:10big health journey? I know that just
4:17:11tracking in general you think is fun,
4:17:13which is, you know, some people might
4:17:15not think just tracking is fun.
4:17:17I think progress is fun.
4:17:18Progress. Okay, yeah.
4:17:19So, one thing that I find very fun. I
4:17:22I'm a very competitive person and one of
4:17:25like I agree tracking is annoying. I
4:17:27don't the tracking itself I don't enjoy.
4:17:30What I enjoy is the competition with
4:17:31myself. Right? So, it's like I I know
4:17:35uh, how much weight I lifted
4:17:38on every on every exercise last week,
4:17:40right? And so,
4:17:41it's fun for me to go into the gym this
4:17:43week and be like, let's see if I can do
4:17:45one more rep,
4:17:46right? Like let's see if [clears throat]
4:17:47let's see if I can do this. Let Let's
4:17:49see if I can add 5 lbs to this. Like,
4:17:51let's see how that feels. I mean, and
4:17:53don't get me wrong, I'm not like
4:17:54skipping to the gym every morning, you
4:17:56know, like hopping out of bed. But like
4:17:58it makes it interesting enough that it
4:18:00it's it it's not as hard to go and it's
4:18:03not [clears throat] as hard to finish
4:18:04the workout. It takes what would be
4:18:07a pretty dull and and boring workout and
4:18:10it makes it interesting and and
4:18:12[clears throat] exciting. The other
4:18:14thing you can do is you can pair, like
4:18:15you can batch activities with each
4:18:17other. So,
4:18:18um,
4:18:19you know, if you let's say there's a
4:18:21podcast you love, like
4:18:24[clears throat and cough]
4:18:25[laughter]
4:18:25two handsome men
4:18:27talking about procrastination for 4
4:18:28hours.
4:18:30You can You can
4:18:32[gasps]
4:18:32You can make a You can make a rule with
4:18:34yourself that like you can only listen
4:18:36to the Solve podcast while you're doing
4:18:38housework. Like this is I've got a
4:18:40couple podcasts that
4:18:41are just frivolous and fun and
4:18:44I they're my chores podcast. Like I
4:18:47don't listen to them at other time. It's
4:18:48like when I'm doing the dishes and
4:18:50taking out the trash and you know,
4:18:52cleaning the office. Like that's when I
4:18:54put this podcast on cuz it's kind of it
4:18:56takes what is normally just a painful
4:18:59boring experience
4:19:00and it makes it interesting for me. And
4:19:02you can lump activities together like
4:19:04that. You know, if if if you love
4:19:07audiobooks, you know, make a deal with
4:19:08yourself that you can you can only
4:19:10listen to audiobooks either while you're
4:19:12working out or while you're getting
4:19:14ready for bed. You know, and it's
4:19:16there's no other time.
4:19:17Okay. So, I did think of actually ways I
4:19:19have made things fun. Um for me though,
4:19:22it's more of a it combines the social
4:19:24aspect to it too though. So, CrossFit
4:19:26being the example that you you gave. But
4:19:28I I like it instead of having a home
4:19:30gym. I just I don't like having I need
4:19:31to leave the house for whatever reason.
4:19:33[laughter]
4:19:33But what I've realized is that it's
4:19:34actually really fun for me to go to
4:19:36CrossFit and see those people. The
4:19:38workouts themselves are brutal and
4:19:39they're, you know, intense. But you go
4:19:41and you start you kind of get your
4:19:42little CrossFit friends, you know, and
4:19:44um there's a social aspect to that. I
4:19:46used to do jujitsu too. Like you go and
4:19:48there's a very social aspect to that
4:19:49obviously too. Um so, yeah. For for some
4:19:53people for you, you have fun with
4:19:55competition with yourself.
4:19:57For me, even though I'm also introverted
4:19:59in a lot of ways, I that social there's
4:20:01still some social reward in a lot of in
4:20:04my yoga studio I go to too. There's
4:20:05yeah, there's that.
4:20:06Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's I mean
4:20:08So, what's fun for you could be fun for
4:20:10somebody else.
4:20:11Yeah, everybody's fun is a little bit
4:20:12different. But you know, the principles
4:20:14are the same.
4:20:15All even goes through this. He's like
4:20:16gamify it, make it social, and then like
4:20:19batch it with something that you enjoy.
4:20:21You know, so those like those are the
4:20:22three tried and true methods. I think he
4:20:24has a couple more in his book that I'm
4:20:26probably not thinking of at the moment.
4:20:27So.
4:20:28All right, last one and I know this is
4:20:30this is the the spicy one. But
4:20:33uh just really quick, productive
4:20:35procrastination with an asterisk. Yes.
4:20:38This is personality dependent.
4:20:40Uh if you are an ADHD person like me,
4:20:43you might get a lot of leverage out of
4:20:44this. Be careful. Like it is it is like
4:20:46juggling steak knives. Uh, you can hurt
4:20:49yourself.
4:20:50If you're not If you're not very focused
4:20:52and adept at like what you're doing, the
4:20:54productive procrastination, it can get
4:20:56out of hand very easily. So, just to
4:20:58review really quick, it's when you
4:21:01you procrastinate one task by doing some
4:21:03other task that is also intimidating or
4:21:05difficult to do. And, uh,
4:21:08it can be very effective if it's honed
4:21:10well and honed correctly. Uh, it can be
4:21:13extremely effective. But, you can also
4:21:17waste a lot of time
4:21:19spinning your wheels doing a bunch of
4:21:21that seems useful but is not. And,
4:21:25like you said, it's like
4:21:26a another subtle form of avoidance. Um,
4:21:29so the the difference between productive
4:21:31procrastination and just unproductive
4:21:33procrastination is like a very fine
4:21:35line. And, I would urge people to
4:21:38consider it but also be very very
4:21:39careful about it. All right, last
4:21:42section.
4:21:43A drum I've been banging on for a long
4:21:45time now is that everything in life is a
4:21:46trade-off. There's no
4:21:48There's no
4:21:50win No win is 100% a win. There's always
4:21:53some downside somewhere with a
4:21:55So, in that spirit, we like to finish
4:21:57every episode with what are the hidden
4:21:59costs or what is the hidden trade-off of
4:22:02solving this area of your life? And so,
4:22:04what What are the hidden costs of
4:22:06getting a handle on your
4:22:07procrastination? Like, what are the
4:22:08unnoticed sacrifices or things that
4:22:11you're going to have to give up if you
4:22:13actually get over this issue in your
4:22:15life?
4:22:17The first one that I put, and this is
4:22:19something that I've experienced quite a
4:22:21bit myself, is that you have to accept
4:22:23that you're you're probably going to
4:22:24lose hobbies, interests, or diversions.
4:22:27Like, there going to be certain things
4:22:28in your life that you do genuinely like
4:22:31and appreciate uh, that you're just
4:22:33going to have to let go of. And, And
4:22:35could be anything from like, you know
4:22:37the gaming Discord server that you hang
4:22:40out in to the sports websites that you
4:22:43frequent to
4:22:45you know the
4:22:47the Tik Tok
4:22:49channels that you you enjoy watching
4:22:51like you're just going to you're going
4:22:52to have to let some of those go.
4:22:54That's the price. That's the price of
4:22:56admission of just getting this area of
4:22:58your life handled and
4:22:59that can suck. I experienced this a lot
4:23:01with the video games like at one rule I
4:23:03had I discovered I had to create for
4:23:05myself
4:23:06was no multiplayer video games because
4:23:09I'm too competitive. A single player
4:23:11video game I can play for an hour and
4:23:12just put it down and like go on with my
4:23:14life. A multiplayer video game I'm like
4:23:16no, you dude. I'm going to
4:23:17practice. I'm going to like I'm going to
4:23:19grind. I'm going to get so good at this.
4:23:20I'm going to beat all of you.
4:23:22You can talk trash on your headset and
4:23:23you're going to
4:23:24I I I've literally wasted months of my
4:23:27life like trying to get good at at
4:23:29certain video games.
4:23:31Uh so I I just don't let myself do that
4:23:33anymore. And and I miss it
4:23:35Yeah.
4:23:35Like I really do miss it. Like I I have
4:23:37very fond memories of certain games that
4:23:39I did get very good at and
4:23:41uh
4:23:42but that's just that that's the price of
4:23:44you know it's not worth giving up uh
4:23:47my business and my career and my
4:23:49marriage. Uh so
4:23:51I've I've chosen those things. So yeah,
4:23:54[laughter]
4:23:55over it.
4:23:55That that we we talked a little bit
4:23:57already about trading a lower value for
4:23:58a higher value. We talked about it in
4:24:00the previous episode too, but um
4:24:02that it's it can be that's pretty a
4:24:04clear example where it's like okay,
4:24:06yeah, I probably shouldn't be playing
4:24:07these multiplayer video games or video
4:24:09games in general. I should be doing this
4:24:10other thing. There's a clear trade off
4:24:11you know you should make it. It's a
4:24:13struggle but you do. Sometimes though,
4:24:15you also like in my situation I've I've
4:24:17had to adjust where I don't feel like
4:24:20I'm necessarily trading a lower value
4:24:21for a higher value. I'm I'm sacrificing
4:24:23something that is genuinely genuinely
4:24:25meaningful for me, but I guess at the
4:24:27end of the day it is a higher one. So my
4:24:29example is when I did finally start to
4:24:32address my health stuff and stop
4:24:33procrastinating on working out and
4:24:35eating right and all of that. That takes
4:24:37up a lot of time. So, you work out and
4:24:39you usually work out in the middle of
4:24:40the day cuz it's just that's how my
4:24:41brain works and so it takes up kind of a
4:24:43a big chunk of time in the middle of the
4:24:45day and I've had to sacrifice
4:24:47um
4:24:48some of my like woodworking has kind of
4:24:50uh I haven't been able to do as much
4:24:51just because I do have less time now um
4:24:53for that. And that's kind of a big like
4:24:56I love woodworking and it's great and
4:24:57it's adds a lot of fun and enjoyment and
4:25:00meaning to my life. Um but I guess I did
4:25:04realize that
4:25:06uh taking care of my health long-term
4:25:09is probably more important right now
4:25:11and then will be more important in the
4:25:13future and I can woodwork longer
4:25:16hopefully, you know, it's a physical
4:25:17activity. I'm going to need that when
4:25:19I'm old, you know, when I'm an old man
4:25:20in the woodshop. And so, yeah, sometimes
4:25:23it's really clear that oh, I need to
4:25:24give up this kind of lower value this
4:25:26lower um fun that I have in my life
4:25:29Mhm.
4:25:30for something that's more important and
4:25:31sometimes it's not quite as clear-cut
4:25:33though, too. So.
4:25:35It can be ambiguous.
4:25:36[clears throat]
4:25:37All right, what what do you have?
4:25:38Yeah, um
4:25:39so this one might get a might ruffle a
4:25:41few feathers from a certain type of
4:25:43person, but you got to lower your
4:25:45standards and accept your limitations.
4:25:48I know there's a certain type of person
4:25:50out there that's going to say, "What?
4:25:52No, like I'm not going to lower my
4:25:53standards. Like that's not what
4:25:54productivity is. That's not what getting
4:25:56your life together means. It's raising
4:25:58your standards." And
4:25:59actually, you know, there are certain
4:26:01situations where you just have to accept
4:26:02reality. I think is really what it is.
4:26:05And like we already mentioned one thing
4:26:08celebrate those like little wins that
4:26:09probably don't look very sexy on the
4:26:12outside or to anyone else, but
4:26:15that's a that's a win. Like a win is a
4:26:18win here and like lower your standards
4:26:20from I'm going to get 10 million things
4:26:22done today, you know, to I'm going to
4:26:23get one or two things done today and
4:26:26they don't look like it's um
4:26:28making a whole lot of progress, but it
4:26:29is actually in the grand scheme of
4:26:31things when you step back. This is how
4:26:33it works.
4:26:33And you're you are speaking on this this
4:26:35one, you were speaking as a recovered
4:26:37perfectionist. Like this this is I think
4:26:39this is the one that the perfectionists
4:26:40like really struggle with is like
4:26:43Like like no, I it has to be excellent.
4:26:46It has to be perfect. And and it's that
4:26:49is
4:26:50that is self-defeating, you know, before
4:26:52you even get started. There is a
4:26:53fantastic book on this, friend of the
4:26:55pod, Oliver Burkeman's 4,000 Weeks.
4:26:57Ah, fantastic book. It's one of the most
4:26:59recommended books I I recommend to
4:27:01people.
4:27:01Yeah, it's just it is it it's called the
4:27:04the subtitle is called Productivity for
4:27:06Mortals, um which I love. It's it it's
4:27:10all about this. It's all about like
4:27:12you can't do everything.
4:27:13Yeah. You and and
4:27:14Accepting your finitude is the kind of
4:27:16way he puts it, yeah.
4:27:17Yeah, like not all and not only can you
4:27:19not do everything, but like A, coming to
4:27:21that realization and and B, like
4:27:22properly prioritizing the things you can
4:27:24do
4:27:25Mhm.
4:27:25is [clears throat] a very difficult
4:27:26thing. And this kind of like
4:27:29it it a lot of it's a critique of just
4:27:31kind of the the productivity industry in
4:27:33general or like the mentality of like
4:27:35bro, you just got to you just got to
4:27:37hustle, man. You just got to like get
4:27:38this new system like you can do it all,
4:27:40dude. Like you you don't have to don't
4:27:42make any sacrifices.
4:27:43need to sleep.
4:27:44Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then it's just
4:27:46like no, actually the game is sacrifice.
4:27:48Like that is the game. It's like what
4:27:50are you willing to give up for your
4:27:51goals? And by the way, you, you know, if
4:27:55you really are trying to do something
4:27:56ambitious and great,
4:27:58you probably only have the capacity to
4:28:01do a handful of things
4:28:03like that in your entire life, right?
4:28:06So,
4:28:06Yeah.
4:28:07You you
4:28:08you have to like get very realistic on
4:28:11on timelines and and capacity and and
4:28:14time management and everything. So, huge
4:28:16fan of that.
4:28:17Here's a drawback that I think a lot of
4:28:18people
4:28:20are won't consider, uh which is that if
4:28:23you handle your procrastination, you're
4:28:24going to have to give up your excuses.
4:28:26Ah, yeah. Oh, that we hold on to so
4:28:28dearly.
4:28:29You're going to have to own your
4:28:31You're going to have to own
4:28:34Suddenly, some of these stories and
4:28:35narratives that you've had maybe in many
4:28:38cases for your entire life it kind of
4:28:40explaining your own underperformance or
4:28:42why things didn't work out the way you
4:28:43thought they would or you know, why you
4:28:45haven't been able to dedicate as much
4:28:47time to this thing as you thought you
4:28:48would. Yeah, you're going to have to let
4:28:50that go.
4:28:50Yeah.
4:28:51Again, it comes back to the the pure
4:28:53steel thing about about reality. It's
4:28:55like the the best
4:28:57the best people
4:28:59at not procrastinating are the people
4:29:01who are the most realistic who
4:29:03[clears throat] understand they're like
4:29:04Yeah, that's just a story I tell myself
4:29:06to justify like not doing the thing I
4:29:08don't want to do. And that sucks. Like
4:29:11it's it's it's the sort of thing that
4:29:13like when you let it go, it's painful,
4:29:16but then once it's gone, it's
4:29:17liberating. Right. So
4:29:19Yeah, that goes back a little bit too we
4:29:21can
4:29:22sneak Freud back in here if we want to.
4:29:24The defense mechanisms, right?
4:29:26You have to let go of those. Recognize
4:29:28that that's what you're doing is you're
4:29:30just protecting your little ego and
4:29:31letting go of those. That can be a
4:29:32painful thing, too, because those
4:29:34defense mechanisms they're defensive.
4:29:35They protect you in some way, but
4:29:37they're protecting you in a way that's
4:29:38holding you back. So recognizing that,
4:29:41like you said at first, yes, it's
4:29:42painful. Rip the band-aid off. You
4:29:44adapt.
4:29:44Comes back to the the ego flexibility
4:29:47and
4:29:48um
4:29:48and and not building an ego around the
4:29:50lower values, building them over over
4:29:52the higher values.
4:29:53Yeah.
4:29:54All right, what's the next one?
4:29:55Uh disconnecting from bad influences.
4:29:57So, we mentioned this a little bit
4:29:58already, but
4:29:59there's going to be people and
4:30:01situations in your life that are not
4:30:03conducive to you getting things done and
4:30:05you taking care of
4:30:07what you really want to get done in your
4:30:08life. And you're going to have to remove
4:30:10yourself from some of those situations
4:30:12or some of those relationships that you
4:30:14have. And that's also painful. Those
4:30:15relationships have served some sort of
4:30:17purpose in your life. May I might not be
4:30:18a healthy purpose, but it's served some
4:30:20purpose in your life and you're going to
4:30:22have to
4:30:23uh leave those in some way, shape, or
4:30:26form and that will be painful.
4:30:28If there are, you know, certain work
4:30:30There's going to be situations too where
4:30:31it's like in work situations where you
4:30:32might not be able to get away from
4:30:33somebody. You're going to have to set up
4:30:34some boundaries. That might be a little
4:30:35bit have some uncomfortable
4:30:36conversations with these people. It's
4:30:38going to be There's a There's a more
4:30:40opportunities for you to manage
4:30:41emotions. Let's just say that in these
4:30:42situations. Yeah.
4:30:44Yeah, it's it's
4:30:45you know, in some cases it will be
4:30:47removing the people from your life or or
4:30:49reducing your exposure to the people in
4:30:50your life and in other cases it will be
4:30:52managing that relationship in your life
4:30:54and
4:30:55even more important than simply like
4:30:57who's in your life and who's not, it
4:30:59it's really paying attention to who are
4:31:01you seeking validation from? Ask
4:31:03yourself, are you Do you respect the
4:31:04person you're trying to win respect
4:31:06from? Because
4:31:07in a lot of cases you don't.
4:31:09So like why the are you trying to
4:31:11earn their respect? It makes no sense,
4:31:12but it is very human, right? Like we
4:31:15kind of default to just wanting to be
4:31:17approved by the people around us, right?
4:31:19So it it if the people around us are
4:31:21actually people that we don't really
4:31:23respect or
4:31:24uh value their judgment highly,
4:31:27we should have a difficult conversation
4:31:29with ourselves of like why am I trying
4:31:31to win the approval of this person? Like
4:31:34I should find somebody a little bit more
4:31:35admirable to uh try to get validation
4:31:38from. And
4:31:39I I I do think there is a little bit of
4:31:40a misconception in just self-help in
4:31:43general, which is that like there's like
4:31:45clichéd advice of like, you know, stop
4:31:48seeking validation from others. I I
4:31:49think that's impossible. It's it's not
4:31:51You don't stop seeking validations from
4:31:53others. You You seek validations for
4:31:55from better people and for better
4:31:57reasons.
4:31:58Right. That they're more in line with
4:31:59your values, more in line with what you
4:32:01want to get done.
4:32:02With who you want to be, right? So
4:32:04again, it's like finding that lever
4:32:07to push you in the right direction.
4:32:09[clears throat]
4:32:09All right, last one as we're talking
4:32:11about relationships with with other
4:32:13people and this is going to this is
4:32:15definitely a champagne problem.
4:32:16Yeah.
4:32:17You will have this problem.
4:32:20You will not mind having this problem,
4:32:22but it is a problem nonetheless, which
4:32:24is the more effective you become as a
4:32:26person, the more productive you are, the
4:32:28more successful you are, the more you
4:32:30get things done, accomplish your goals,
4:32:33the more the people around you will
4:32:34expect of you.
4:32:35Yeah.
4:32:35Yeah. [laughter]
4:32:36The higher the standard you will be held
4:32:39to by others. And in some cases people
4:32:41will not like holding you to that
4:32:43standard. They won't like that you're
4:32:44that productive or that effective and so
4:32:46they might there might be a little bit
4:32:47of backlash among some people, but for
4:32:49the most part people will respect and
4:32:52admire it, but they'll also
4:32:54you know, you'll set the bar high for
4:32:55yourself and that can be stressful and
4:32:57intimidating at times. It can feel
4:32:59unfair at times,
4:33:00uh but it's also again, I think it's a
4:33:03positive social pressure, right? Like if
4:33:05the people [clears throat] around you
4:33:06see you as somebody who performs well
4:33:09and is diligent and is reliable, that
4:33:12puts social pressure on you to be those
4:33:13things. And ultimately, that's a good
4:33:16thing. So, it's a it's an example of a
4:33:18desirable stress, I would say. In fact,
4:33:20I would say most of these are desirable
4:33:22stresses, I would say
4:33:24most of these in most cases are things
4:33:27that you would like to trade off. So,
4:33:29don't don't get the wrong idea that this
4:33:31these are any reasons to not fix your
4:33:33procrastination. We're [clears throat]
4:33:35just trying to be realistic of like,
4:33:37"Hey, if you get your procrastination
4:33:38handled, here's what you can expect on
4:33:40the other side."
4:33:40Yeah, I mean with the higher
4:33:41expectations one too, that you got to be
4:33:43careful because then you lead into the
4:33:44situations where you're not saying no
4:33:47and we talked about that the certain
4:33:49type of
4:33:50procrastinator who who takes on too much
4:33:53at that point too and then you just end
4:33:55up procrastinating more. So, yeah,
4:33:56that's
4:33:57It's a it's a hazard, but it's a good
4:33:59hazard, yeah.
4:33:59Good hazard, yeah.
4:34:00All right, we're at the end. Finally,
4:34:04before [clears throat] we sign off Drew,
4:34:07I'm curious in all the research and prep
4:34:09and recording that we've done for this
4:34:10episode,
4:34:12um
4:34:12has anything Have you been inspired to
4:34:15change anything in your life? Has there
4:34:16been any like kind of tangible takeaway
4:34:18for you
4:34:18Mhm.
4:34:19going through this process?
4:34:20Yeah, I'm I'm So, when we started
4:34:22researching this a long time ago, right?
4:34:24Um I did my own little experiment and um
4:34:28I borrowed a Nintendo Switch from a
4:34:31from a friend and I set it It's like not
4:34:34too far away from my office. So, it's
4:34:35really easy for me to go in and out. I
4:34:36was like, "Okay, how how bad are these
4:34:38distractions?" So, we're talking about
4:34:39the environmental side of it. It's bad.
4:34:42It's very, very bad. And it What it did
4:34:44for me is it really made me get again
4:34:46get honest. I knew that being honest
4:34:48with myself was actually a key to this,
4:34:49you know, don't don't buy the food,
4:34:51don't
4:34:51Yeah.
4:34:52don't buy the junk food and put in the
4:34:53fridge, all that kind of stuff. I
4:34:54already knew that. I though
4:34:58realized really the impact of
4:34:59environment really came home for me and
4:35:02and a lot of this. But, what the
4:35:05I took it one step further to and
4:35:09it was very surprising to me just to
4:35:10learn how important emotions are. I
4:35:13mean, I knew they were important. I knew
4:35:14procrastination on some level was
4:35:17wasn't an emotional problem, but I think
4:35:19we've come to the conclusion that it's
4:35:20all an emotional problem. It's not It's
4:35:23not There's an emotional component to
4:35:24it. It's just baseline an emotional
4:35:27problem that you have to deal with.
4:35:28Yeah, all this other stuff, environment,
4:35:30social
4:35:31connections, relationships, even ego
4:35:34stuff, like it's only relevant in so
4:35:36much as it alters and affects your
4:35:37emotions.
4:35:38Right. Right.
4:35:38Right? Like your ego's only a problem
4:35:40with procrastination
4:35:42if your ego's causing negative emotions
4:35:45to to prevent you from actually doing
4:35:46the thing you want to do.
4:35:47Yeah. In so far as though what I've I've
4:35:49changed specifically, I've used more of
4:35:51the mindfulness like the rain method and
4:35:53I've I've definitely implemented that
4:35:55into my daily
4:35:56habits and routines. Now, when I start
4:35:58to procrastinate on something, I'm I'm
4:35:59much better at it now, too, just
4:36:01stopping, catching myself. Okay, what's
4:36:02going on?
4:36:03Mhm.
4:36:04And achieving that last step in the rain
4:36:06model, which is non-identification. I'm
4:36:08like, oh, this is what I'm feeling right
4:36:10now. I'm not going to identify with it
4:36:11so much that it's going to just going to
4:36:12derail my next hour, day, or whatever.
4:36:15So, that's been a huge win for me,
4:36:17anyway.
4:36:17That's funny cuz it's Yeah, prepping for
4:36:19this episode is I mean, I've been
4:36:21thinking about it for a while.
4:36:23Like as you know, I've been
4:36:24I've gone in and out of meditation quite
4:36:27a bit throughout my adult life and done
4:36:29it very intensely for periods and done
4:36:31[clears throat] it not at all for
4:36:32periods. I'm currently in a not at all
4:36:34period, but it's funny that prepping for
4:36:36this episode
4:36:38it's
4:36:40making me think that I should kind of
4:36:42get back on the meditation train. Um
4:36:44you know, I I've done it on and off me
4:36:46mainly to kind of help manage the ADHD.
4:36:49I've definitely noticed over the last
4:36:50year, year and a half
4:36:52I am becoming a lot more distractible.
4:36:55Uh and I I am a lot like I'm
4:36:57the stimulus junkie in me is like
4:37:00is getting is is is becoming a little
4:37:02bit of a a dope fiend.
4:37:05And it was just interesting going
4:37:07through all this research and and really
4:37:08seeing the importance of
4:37:11that self-awareness, the importance of
4:37:13boredom, the importance of being able to
4:37:14sit in stillness and recognize emotions
4:37:17and and you know, that gap So, in
4:37:19Buddhism they they talk about the gap
4:37:21between the emotion and the action, you
4:37:23know, and it's like the more you
4:37:24meditate, the wider that gap gets. And
4:37:27I've definitely felt my gap shrinking
4:37:29over the past couple years and um
4:37:31I I don't think I I don't think it's
4:37:33resulted in a a huge problem with
4:37:34procrastination. I've I've been very
4:37:36productive recently, but just in terms
4:37:38of like mental health and general
4:37:41well-being and happiness, it's kind of
4:37:43inspired me a little bit to uh
4:37:45maybe get back on the mat and and put
4:37:47some time in again.
4:37:48Yeah. I recently
4:37:51uh heard that that gap
4:37:53Yeah.
4:37:53The way that was described was the gap
4:37:54between
4:37:56uh uh whatever happens to you and your
4:37:58reaction and between is your
4:37:59interpretation and that's what you can
4:38:01control and that definitely through all
4:38:04of this too has been kind of a a motto
4:38:06of mine as well it's like okay can't
4:38:08control what happens to you sometimes it
4:38:09can't like your reaction is sometimes
4:38:12not what you control either but the
4:38:13interpretation in between and then it
4:38:15can obviously influence the action that
4:38:17you take so that that's been a big one
4:38:18for me too and the mindfulness little
4:38:20trick that
4:38:21cool
4:38:22that's it
4:38:23I think so
4:38:24we made it we made it we will be back
4:38:26next month with an episode
4:38:29on emotional regulation yeah
4:38:31since it is we
4:38:33I think we realized researching this one
4:38:35we're like
4:38:36yeah if this is all about emotional
4:38:38regulation we should probably just do an
4:38:39episode on emotional [laughter]
4:38:40regulation
4:38:41be a foundation yeah for sure

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