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How to Solve the Climate Crisis | Johan Rockström on Planetary Boundaries & the Path Forward — Transcript

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0:00In the mid-1950s, we humans shift from
0:02being this small world on a big planet
0:04to now being a big world on a small
0:06planet. We've simply filled up the whole
0:08space. When you've reached that
0:09saturation point, the old economic
0:11paradigm doesn't work anymore. We've
0:12come to the end of the road of this idea
0:15that you can exploit for free and then
0:17waste without any [music] consequences.
0:19>> Yeah.
0:19>> Actually, it's quite remarkable despite
0:21having breached seven of the nine
0:22boundaries, despite having this climate
0:24crisis, the scientific conclusion is
0:27that the planet is still dominated by
0:29dampening feedbacks, which means that
0:31it's not too late to turn this around.
0:32We can, as far as science shows today,
0:34definitely come back to a manageable
0:37future where much of nature can
0:39regenerate if we just release the
0:40pressure for that accelerator. But, the
0:42time is running out.
0:47>> [music]
0:49>> When you get the chance to interview one
0:50of the world's greatest climate
0:51scientists, you do it. But, I will
0:54admit, I was a bit worried about this
0:55one because my guest, Johan Rockström,
0:57has been sounding the alarm about the
0:59climate crisis for decades. In fact, he
1:01helped create the framework that many of
1:03my other guests have built their work on
1:04top of. We'll discuss it in this
1:06episode, but the reason I was worried
1:08about this conversation is that, as far
1:09as I can tell, the fight against the
1:11climate crisis isn't going so well. So,
1:13I thought this conversation might be a
1:15bit depressing. Well, it turns out I was
1:17wrong. As you'll hear, Rockström
1:19believes there is a clear path forward
1:21to solving the world's biggest
1:22ecological problems, from climate change
1:24to biodiversity loss. In fact, he's more
1:26optimistic now than he was a few years
1:28ago. In this discussion, we'll talk
1:30about why. And in the meantime, we'll
1:31get into climate science, the global
1:33economy, and the Earth system as a
1:35whole. All right, let's get into it.
1:37Johan, thank you so much for being with
1:38me today.
1:39>> Thanks for inviting me.
1:40>> Well, no one's talking about climate
1:41right now, and I thought it would be
1:43good to have a little conversation with
1:44you about what's happening in the Earth
1:47system and why no one's talking about
1:50it. My theory is that people are
1:54too worried about other stuff,
1:56shorter-term problems, to speak about
1:59climate, which is a is a longer-term
2:01issue. Is that your assessment as well,
2:04or what do you think is happening?
2:05>> Well, I would take it slightly
2:07differently. I mean, it for once, I
2:09think you're slightly biased coming from
2:10California. Coming to Europe, I would
2:13argue that climate is not entirely off
2:16off the stage, but I would also say that
2:18um it's not that climate is no longer in
2:21focus, it's that we are rapidly seeing a
2:24change in narrative, which is actually,
2:26in my conclusion,
2:27quite a good development, and is
2:29something that we scientifically have
2:30been arguing for a long time, namely
2:33that the climate crisis, that
2:35scientifically is well established, is
2:38not an environmental challenge, is not a
2:40moral question only,
2:43it's a question of security, it's a
2:44question of resilience, it's a question
2:46of
2:47the prosperity of tomorrow, and it's a
2:49question of equity.
2:51And um
2:52with uh all the geopolitical instability
2:54in the world, and all the populism and
2:56nationalism, and headwinds, and also a
2:59revival of denialism,
3:01we see a shift in how we are addressing
3:05the climate crisis, more articulated in
3:08terms of security and resilience. So, I
3:10don't think it's disappeared, it's just
3:11that it's changed features. It's kind of
3:14a chameleon behavior, and I think that
3:16is a maturity of the topic.
3:18>> Okay, it's good to hear you say that,
3:19and I think you're right. I am coming
3:21from a US perspective, where under the
3:23Trump administration, the climate issue
3:25has been marginalized. But, it's good to
3:27hear that that hasn't happened in
3:29Europe.
3:29>> It has not, and and uh to be honest, we
3:33um we feel with you uh on this side of
3:35the Atlantic.
3:36>> Good. Thank you for the solidarity.
3:38>> [laughter]
3:38>> Yes, it's it's rough over there. Well,
3:41so tell me what you mean about
3:42resilience and national security. Are
3:43you saying that
3:44countries are starting to view climate
3:47as a matter of protecting their economy,
3:51protecting their quality of life of
3:53their citizenry?
3:54>> Definitely. I mean, there are there are
3:55three
3:56>> [clears throat]
3:57>> pieces of evidence that are coming
3:59together right as we speak. I mean, one
4:01is
4:02not only that the science on climate
4:06risks is well established. We are
4:09unfortunately also seeing overwhelming
4:12evidence, which I think is sinking in
4:14also among citizens in general and
4:16policy makers, business leaders across
4:19across the world, actually. That is
4:21hitting faster, harder, and that the
4:25rate of warming is increasing
4:28faster than we had expected. So, the
4:30last 10 years we see that we're going um
4:34you know, shifting from one rate of
4:38warming, which is the one that has taken
4:40us to what we call the climate crisis,
4:42to an even faster rate of warming. We're
4:44going to inevitably go into overshoot
4:47and crashing through 1.5° C probably
4:49within the next few years. We're heading
4:51into a new
4:53most likely a really strong El Niño,
4:55probably already end of this year. We
4:57see coral reef systems collapsing. We
4:59see accelerated rate of melting of
5:01glaciers. We see
5:03all forms of droughts and heat waves and
5:06fires increasing not only in frequency,
5:08but also in amplitude. So, that is is
5:10one exponential in terms of the risk.
5:13The second one is that we have now
5:16established evidence that across the
5:18entire world it's simply cheaper and
5:20smarter to invest in renewable energy
5:24than particularly power
5:26the the rapidly developing
5:27electrification of our economies
5:30with with coal. It doesn't make sense
5:32anymore to use coal, not even oil and
5:34gas to generate electricity, and we're
5:37moving in in a in a very fast pace
5:40towards a modern, digital, electrified
5:43economy. So, that's the next second
5:45exponential. And the third one is of
5:47course what happened the next last few
5:49months with regards to the exponential
5:52rise in oil and gas prices. And when you
5:53put that all together, the exponential
5:56of the energy crisis, the exponential of
5:58opportunity on renewable energy, and the
6:00exponential or rapidly rise in risk, put
6:03that all together and the climate crisis
6:06turns rapidly into security agenda. It
6:08becomes a pathway towards independence.
6:11Turns a pathway into being a much more
6:14stable in how you handle your nations.
6:17And remember that 75% of citizens in the
6:20world are consumers of oil and gas.
6:23They're not suppliers. So, it doesn't
6:25make sense to sit in the hands of very
6:27few suppliers of a very volatile,
6:30inefficient energy source, which
6:32moreover pollutes and risks the
6:35instability of the entire planet. So,
6:37you don't have to understand all the ins
6:39and outs of the science to come to the
6:41conclusion that hmm, this doesn't make
6:43sense anymore.
6:44>> Yeah. Well, let's talk about the science
6:46a little bit because you are a renowned
6:48climate scientist and you came up with a
6:50framework called the planetary
6:52boundaries, which has influenced a lot
6:53of the guests that I've interviewed on
6:54this podcast. It's It's the outside of
6:57the donut for Kate Raworth's donut
6:58economic system. It's something that has
7:00inspired Jason Hickel's work in terms of
7:02degrowth and sort of managing the
7:04transition to a more sustainable
7:07economy.
7:08And so, can you give me a brief overview
7:10of what the planetary boundaries are and
7:13how it can help us understand the Earth
7:16system we live in?
7:17>> The planetary boundary science, which is
7:18now, you know,
7:2015 years of scientific advancements
7:23under its belt, originates from from
7:26three, I would argue, extraordinary
7:28advancements in our understanding of how
7:31the planet functions. And the first one
7:34is that we understand today that the
7:35planet is is a biogeochemically
7:39complex, self-regulating system that has
7:42interactions and feedbacks, which means
7:44that in a healthy state, in a stable
7:46state, it remains in an equilibrium
7:49thanks to its feedbacks that can dampen
7:53and buffer stress. For example, stress
7:55from It can be a volcanic eruption. It
7:58can be earthquake. It can be solar
8:00radiation shifts, but it can also be
8:02fossil fuel burning.
8:03But if you push these systems too far,
8:06you can irreversibly push it to start
8:10drifting away from that equilibrium
8:11state.
8:13And the second line of science is that
8:14we today know
8:16that the past 12,000 years, since we
8:18left the last ice age, is an
8:19extraordinarily stable equilibrium state
8:22of the Earth system, a warm interglacial
8:24called the Holocene. And the Holocene is
8:26in itself the planet
8:29we depend on, the planet we have as the
8:31foundation for everything we love, but
8:33also everything we uh develop in our
8:36economies. But we have that as our as
8:38our measuring point of the desired
8:40planet. And the third
8:43and final set of scientific evidence is
8:45that we today understand that there are
8:47tipping point systems, a number of large
8:50biophysical systems that keep them on
8:52the on the safe side of the fence, and
8:55they will dampen and help keep the
8:57planet in a stable Holocene equilibrium.
9:00But if you push them too far, they will
9:02irreversibly self-amplify warming and
9:05move away from that state and undermine
9:07therefore life support. With these
9:09areas of science advancing, so how the
9:13planet operates,
9:15the Holocene as a reference point, and
9:17the tipping points being a real
9:19hardwired parts of the planet,
9:22the question arose, what are then the
9:25Earth system processes that can keep the
9:26planet in a stable state?
9:28And once we map those nine planetary
9:31boundary processes that regulates the
9:34the state of the planet,
9:36we then asked the question, can we
9:37quantify safe boundary levels
9:40that if we stay within them, we have a
9:42chance of having a high likelihood of
9:45keeping the planet
9:46in a life-supporting, resilient, and
9:48stable state. But go beyond that that
9:51boundary, we risk
9:53undermining the stability of the system
9:56that can start causing feedbacks that
9:59makes it less and less likely that we
10:01can maintain good livelihoods for
10:05species and humans on planet Earth.
10:07Right. And there you have the planetary
10:08boundary framework, and we've identified
10:10nine planetary boundary systems, and
10:12we've been able to quantify all these
10:14nine
10:15using uh, you know, 13 control
10:17variables. So, several boundaries have
10:19several indicators, and and these give
10:22us a quantification
10:24of a safe operating space that um,
10:28basically provides
10:30the the guidance for world development
10:33within a stable and resilient Earth
10:35system.
10:36>> So, it's almost like the quantifying the
10:39guardrails on how to maintain an
10:42ecosystem that we can thrive in.
10:44>> Correct. And why do we need that? So,
10:46we've been um, operating what we can
10:49call
10:50uh, the modern industrialized
10:54world
10:55for soon 200 years. And in the
10:57beginning, when we developed the
11:00macroeconomic theories, you know, from
11:02Adam Smith all the way to the uh,
11:05Keynesian
11:06macroeconomic
11:08market economy thinking,
11:11we could still in the beginning
11:14defend our unsustainable behavior by
11:16being a relatively small world economy
11:19on a very large planet.
11:21>> Mhm.
11:21>> So, we had, you know, ample
11:22biodiversity, ample forest, ample
11:25atmosphere,
11:27big oceans that we could exploit fish
11:29from without having any invoices sent
11:32back from the planet or any
11:34risks of causing irreversible damage to
11:37the planet.
11:38But then we enter in the mid-1950s what
11:41is now scientifically defined as the
11:42Great Acceleration,
11:44which brings us into the Anthropocene,
11:45which is that we humans shift from being
11:48this relatively small world on a big
11:50planet to now being a big world on a
11:52small planet. We've simply filled up the
11:54whole space. We've reached a saturation
11:56point and start hitting the ceiling of
11:58the hardwired processes that regulates
12:01the versability of the system. So, of
12:03course, when you've reached that
12:04saturation point, the old economic
12:06paradigm doesn't work anymore.
12:07>> Yeah.
12:07>> You cannot just exploit for free and
12:10waste without any repercussions. And
12:13that's why quantifying the guardrails,
12:17the dashboard for a world to thrive
12:21within a stable planet
12:23may not have been necessary, you know,
12:25in the 16th or 17th century when kind of
12:27many of the basic ideas of what we still
12:30operate under when it comes to our
12:31economic paradigm. But today, it doesn't
12:34work anymore. We've come to the end of
12:36the road of this idea that you can
12:38exploit for free,
12:40create value for human
12:43well-being, and then waste without any
12:45consequences. That era is over. Now we
12:47have to operate within the safe space.
12:49And the Planetary Science is the first
12:51paradigm
12:53to to develop that safe space, which is
12:55then a a positive way of of creating
13:00constraints, indeed, but giving us the
13:02budgets that we have to respect.
13:03>> Right.
13:05So, this is sort of a framework in which
13:07to think about a new economic operating
13:09system, where it's not so much about
13:12extraction and infinite uh pollution and
13:16and growth at all costs, but a an
13:19economy that actually sort of
13:22has feedback loops itself and is more
13:24circular. Mhm. Um which is something
13:26we've talked about a lot on this show,
13:27so it's great to hear like the
13:29scientific framework for a lot of the
13:32the economic theory we've been
13:33discussing. So, thanks for that. Before
13:35we move on to like what should we
13:37actually do and what are some of the
13:38solutions to this problem, let's talk a
13:41little bit about where we're at and then
13:42what tipping points are. You said there
13:44are nine planetary boundaries and the
13:45last I checked we've breached seven of
13:47them. Is that the current state of
13:49things?
13:50>> Yeah, this is the the latest the October
13:522025 assessment. We today update the
13:56planet about the science every year
13:57actually in what we call the planetary
14:00health check and in the latest
14:01assessment, yes, we conclude
14:03unfortunately that
14:05not only are the the six planetary
14:08boundaries that were breached in the
14:09peer-reviewed scientific paper published
14:11in 2025, they continue moving in the
14:14wrong direction.
14:15The seventh boundary is the ocean
14:17acidification boundary that has just
14:19crossed the safe boundary level. So,
14:21this is a a really deep concern that the
14:24conclusion is that we have a planetary
14:27crisis on our watch and and
14:31one way of articulating this is that
14:33we're doing it a double mistake and
14:35taking a big risk that we're breaching
14:38the climate boundary, one of the nine,
14:40which means that we're loading
14:42greenhouse gases causing
14:45this energy imbalance on planet Earth
14:47and we're injecting massive heat into
14:50the system and at the same time we're
14:53undermining what I call the biosphere
14:55boundary. So, among these nine
14:57boundaries you have biodiversity,
15:00overconsumption of fresh water,
15:02changes in the configuration of large
15:04biomes, the land use change boundary,
15:06which is predominantly about how much
15:10deforestation do we have in tropical
15:11rainforest and temperate forest and
15:13boreal forest. We're overloading with
15:15nitrogen and phosphorus, which is the
15:17biogeochemical boundary, overconsumption
15:20of fresh water as I said, overloading of
15:22chemicals, and finally then
15:24acidifying the ocean.
15:26And this is,
15:27you know, remarkable that we're allowing
15:29ourselves to not only add more
15:31greenhouse gases causing greenhouse gas
15:34emissions and global warming,
15:36we're also undermining the resilience of
15:38the Earth system by breaching the nature
15:41boundaries. And the nature boundaries
15:42are so fundamental because a healthy
15:44planet
15:46with the ability
15:48to buffer
15:49provides and has been providing since we
15:52started burning fossil fuels just a
15:54remarkable free service to humanity by
15:56removing 90% heat in the ocean. So, can
16:00you imagine 90% of the heat
16:02injected by our fossil fuel burning is
16:04not in the atmosphere causing the
16:05temperature rise that has created all
16:07the droughts and the floods and the
16:08fires and the real human reinforced
16:10storms, it's in the ocean. It's being
16:12buffered in this enormous thermostat.
16:14>> It's absorbed.
16:15>> And it's absorbed, and but it's not it's
16:17not disappearing, it's there. It's
16:18stored in the ocean, which
16:20um leads to stronger storms, leads to I
16:23mean hurricanes and and typhoons. It
16:25leads to um
16:27um more frequent and and and more severe
16:30El Niño events. So, it's starting to
16:32show signs of of
16:35not being entirely stored away, but can
16:38actually hit us back. But, the second
16:40buffering uh service from the
16:43healthy boundaries is that 50% of the
16:45carbon dioxide that we emit from fossil
16:47fuel burning is absorbed in nature on
16:50land and in the ocean.
16:52And this can only [snorts] be maintained
16:55if we stay within the safe planetary
16:57boundaries. So, we see, for example, now
17:00that the deforestation in the Amazon
17:02rainforest has gone so far that the
17:05Brazilian part of the Amazon basin has
17:08tipped over from no longer being a
17:09carbon sink, it's a net carbon source.
17:12And we see the similar signs in
17:14temperate forests in Canada, in the
17:16Nordic region, and in boreal forests.
17:19So, here you have a situation where it
17:21boils down to our responsibility to keep
17:24the resilience of the planet intact, and
17:26that's what the planetary boundaries try
17:27to protect, the ability of the planet to
17:30buffer stress, to avoid that we cross
17:33too many thresholds that could lead to a
17:36drift away from stable conditions. We're
17:39not there yet. Actually, it's quite
17:40remarkable, despite having breached
17:42seven of the nine boundaries,
17:44despite having this climate crisis, the
17:47scientific conclusion in this latest
17:49planetary boundary health check is that
17:51the planet is still, despite all these
17:54unsustainable pressures, dominated by
17:57dampening feedbacks, which means that
17:58it's not too late to turn this around.
18:00But, the time is running out.
18:02>> That's good to hear that it's not too
18:04late. I think a lot of people have lost
18:06hope and feel like it's too late cuz of
18:07the alarmism of the climate movement, to
18:11be honest. I mean, of which I consider
18:13myself a part, but sometimes it can feel
18:16like we're
18:17talking about a world that's basically
18:19over, and I I don't think that's the
18:21right message to share
18:23to get people inspired about being able
18:25to turn the ship around and actually get
18:27back into safe a safe space for for life
18:30to thrive. So,
18:31>> No, but I agree with you, and and this
18:32is why I think that, you know, while the
18:35planetary boundaries science is a kind
18:37of a diagnostic tool, and it sends, of
18:39course, a very dire message,
18:42but I would also argue it's one of the
18:43most hopeful frameworks we have. Because
18:45isn't it fantastic that we now have the
18:47safe boundaries? We we have the playing
18:49field where we can be successful, and we
18:51can have a prosperous, equitable,
18:54responsible future, and it isn't too
18:56late to return back. We can, as far as
18:58science shows today, definitely come
19:00back to a manageable future where much
19:03of nature can regenerate if we just
19:06release the pressure for that
19:07accelerator.
19:08>> Yeah. And, like I said, we're about to
19:10get into that. I I I do want to make one
19:12comment about what you just mentioned on
19:13the boundaries that I appreciate is that
19:15there's a focus on
19:17eight other boundaries, not just global
19:20temperature, right? I think that the
19:21climate discussion often fixates so much
19:24on global warming, and that might be a
19:26residual effect of everyone hearing
19:28about global warming from Al Gore with
19:30the the inconvenient truth, and then
19:32that kind of being the their frame of
19:34reference for
19:35the climate crisis. But, what I
19:37appreciate about your work is that the
19:39it actually shines a light on the eight
19:40other boundaries that we have, and
19:43biodiversity being one that's very near
19:44and dear to my heart that often gets
19:46ignored, but is so important. And it
19:48actually there's feedback between
19:49biodiversity and temperature. And so, I
19:51think that's really helpful because it
19:52does feel like sometimes we fixate too
19:54much on just temperature.
19:55>> Absolutely. I totally agree. And it just
19:57so happens that today when we meet here,
20:00we published a paper in nature showing
20:03that
20:04we can still
20:06protect the Amazon rainforest, planet
20:09Earth's richest ecosystem on land,
20:12by far in terms of biodiversity, but
20:15also in terms of its fantastic role in
20:18generating 40% of its own rainfall and
20:21providing fresh water supply across the
20:23entire continent, and being a massive
20:26stock of carbon. So, it's an interest
20:28for all of us in the world to keep a
20:31healthy, thriving Amazon rainforest. And
20:34we show in a in a nature research
20:36article today
20:37that unfortunately,
20:39if we continue losing biodiversity at
20:42the pace of today and continue cutting
20:44down the forest, we've lost 17% of the
20:47cover of the Amazon forest. 17.
20:50>> Okay.
20:50>> And if we exceed 25% and we're moving in
20:53that direction,
20:54then the temperature level, the global
20:56warming level at which the system is at
20:59risk of crossing a tipping point where
21:01it would irreversibly become a degraded
21:03bush savanna,
21:05goes down from if you look only at
21:07climate, the risk level is put somewhere
21:10between 3 and 4° C of warming, so low
21:13risk, but if you factor in loss of
21:14biodiversity, loss of canopy cover, and
21:18and changes in hydrology, so three
21:19additional planetary boundaries, the
21:21temperature risk goes down to somewhere
21:23between 1 and 2° C.
21:25So, the planetary boundaries
21:27are fundamental to understand the
21:29ability of these precious system that we
21:32all depend on for the stability of our
21:34economies and the planet to stay stable.
21:37So, to express it another way, even if
21:39we would stop burning fossil fuels
21:42entirely tomorrow morning, we would
21:44still breach the 1.5° C limit if we
21:48continue losing
21:50biodiversity, over consuming fresh
21:52water, overloading nitrogen phosphorus,
21:54changing land systems, changing the
21:56ocean, because those feedbacks would
21:59themselves amplify the warming. So, we
22:01we have no choice. We have to become
22:03stewards of the planet. I mean, you
22:06could argue that for moral reasons we
22:07should do it, but even if you focus only
22:10on your security and your economy, you
22:12want to go down a sustainable route to
22:15be successful. And and and I would even
22:18to me, that is the winning path today.
22:20>> Yeah. You mentioned tipping points. Can
22:22you explain what what a tipping point is
22:23because it sounds like there's a certain
22:25amount of biodiversity loss, canopy
22:27cover loss, temperature change that
22:29would cause the Amazon rainforest to
22:31basically not be a rainforest anymore?
22:33>> Correct. Yeah, so tipping points is the
22:36understanding today that we have a large
22:39number of of large biophysical systems
22:42on Earth like the Amazon rainforest,
22:44like the Greenland ice sheet, like the
22:46permafrost systems
22:48that have multiple stable states
22:50and they're separated by a threshold.
22:54And it just so happens that over the
22:57past 12,000 years, all these systems
22:59have landed and being configured in a
23:02state that we depend on we can call that
23:05the healthy state, the state we need.
23:07So, rainforest is one for example.
23:09And they stay in this stable state
23:11because they're dominated by a set of
23:13feedbacks that makes them
23:15remain [clears throat] in this stable
23:16state. And the feedback for the Amazon
23:18rainforest is this ability to generate
23:2140% of its own rainfall. And if you push
23:25these systems too far, they will cross a
23:28threshold. That's what we call the
23:29tipping point. And the moment they cross
23:31a threshold, the the feedback that keeps
23:34them in a rainforest state
23:36turns off. And instead, you go from
23:38self-moistening therefore to
23:40self-drying. And this is what
23:42irreversibly pushes this system to
23:44become a degraded savanna system.
23:46Perhaps even more pedagogic is is is ice
23:49sheets. The Greenland ice sheet
23:51is in an equilibrium state that is, you
23:55know,
23:56where it lands after we left the last
23:58ice age. It reaches this equilibrium
24:00because it is 3 km high. And anyone
24:04who's walked up a mountain knows that
24:06the higher up you walk, the colder it
24:07is. So, it's really cold up there.
24:10And also it's a white surface. And a
24:12white surface reflects 90% of incoming
24:16heat back to space. So, it's a cooling
24:19system. When this system starts melting,
24:22the surface gets darker because liquid
24:24water is darker than the ice. And it
24:26gets lower and lower in altitude. So, at
24:30a at a very specific point, it crosses a
24:33threshold where it goes from being net
24:36cooling to becoming net warming. And
24:39that's the tipping point. And at that
24:41point, it's like pressing an on button.
24:43The system
24:45cannot be turned back. It's it's an
24:47irreversible point where it will simply
24:49self-amplify
24:51the melting journey, whatever you do.
24:54And this is the tipping point. Yeah. And
24:56it's important to recognize that tipping
24:57points is when you press essentially an
25:00on button and you commit yourself to a
25:03state shift. An a rainforest becomes a
25:06savanna, an ice sheet becomes a liquid
25:08surface.
25:10The overturning of heat in the North
25:12Atlantic is switched on or off
25:14basically. And it may take um
25:17the Greenland ice sheet, which
25:18represents 6 to 7 m sea level rise, it
25:21would be a catastrophe if we did press
25:23that on button,
25:25but it may take 1,000 years for it to
25:26completely melt, but it would be
25:28irreversible. So, we would commit
25:30ourselves very soon, but it could take a
25:32long time it will take a long time
25:34before it's
25:35the full impact is is felt.
25:37But my conclusion is
25:39that what matters is the commitment
25:41time. That's what our responsibility is.
25:43And our economic system cannot deal with
25:46impacts that hit 100 years in the future
25:49or 1,000 years in the future, but what
25:51matters is when do I press this on
25:53button
25:54>> Yeah.
25:54>> to to cause a situation where we hand
25:56over to
25:57>> [clears throat]
25:58>> our children and all future generations
26:00a less and less livable planet.
26:01>> Right.
26:02>> That's what tipping points really
26:03represents. And we've today mapped 16 of
26:06these so-called climate tipping element
26:08systems. These are the large tipping
26:10point systems that we scientifically
26:12today know contribute to regulate the
26:14climate stability and that they have
26:16multiple stable states. And the Amazon
26:18rainforest is one of them. The Greenland
26:20ice sheet is another one of them. The
26:22ocean circulation system in the North
26:23Atlantic, the AMOC, is the third one.
26:26>> So, these are the big biophysical
26:27systems that that can, if we push them
26:30too far, can tip over,
26:32but that they help us and actually
26:35buffer and and cool down the system when
26:38they are in the state that we depend on
26:41and that happens to be the state that
26:42they've been in since we left the last
26:44ice age.
26:44>> Got it.
26:45>> And now we're pushing ourselves and what
26:47I what I should end by saying is that
26:50among these 16 that we've mapped, one of
26:53them
26:54is concluded to be essentially at the
26:57tipping point today, and those are the
26:58tropical coral reef systems. So, this is
27:01very likely victim number one.
27:03>> Mhm.
27:04>> And these are key [snorts] regulators of
27:07the biology and the health in the ocean.
27:11And they are livelihoods we know of
27:14probably over 400 million people today.
27:16So, these are this is a really big
27:18system.
27:19And then, the second in the line,
27:22there's a whole set of of tipping
27:25elements system that are scientifically
27:27now shown to be at risk if we when we
27:30exceed 1.5° C of global mean surface
27:33temperature rise, and the Amazon
27:35rainforest is among those. But, we also
27:37have the Greenland ice sheet there, the
27:39West Antarctic ice sheet, abrupt thawing
27:41of permafrost. So, big systems that that
27:45shows scientifically
27:47that we have everything to gain from
27:49moving away from that danger. But, we
27:51use this science on tipping points to
27:54quantify the boundaries. So, the
27:55planetary boundaries is an Earth system
27:58science grounded methodology of setting
28:02the guardrails to avoid that we cause
28:05these kind of
28:07many times irreversible damage to to the
28:10life support systems.
28:12>> So,
28:13I can hear some people, especially back
28:15in my country, who are a little bit
28:16misinformed on this topic,
28:18saying,
28:20"Okay, the perceived risks of of the
28:23climate crisis are overblown. That
28:25humans can adapt, and in some places,
28:28uh a warmer climate is actually going to
28:30be a good thing." What What are they
28:31missing? Are they missing this this
28:33tipping point sort of understanding that
28:36it it's a it'll be a runaway problem?
28:38>> No, they're missing much more than that.
28:40>> [laughter]
28:41>> I would say that you don't even have to
28:43go as far as understanding the risk of
28:46irreversible tipping points
28:48to to argue that they misunderstood the
28:52basics and the very basics is that, you
28:54know, we leave the last ice age 12,000
28:57years ago and we enter the Holocene,
29:00which is a 14° C
29:02average temperature on Earth. And the
29:04maximum variability during that entire
29:0712,000 year period is plus minus 1° C.
29:11Okay? So, that's what I call the
29:12corridor of life. And why can I call it
29:15the corridor of life? Well, it's because
29:17you know,
29:18who are we
29:20when we live in deep ice age? And we've
29:22been around on planet Earth for 250,000
29:24years as modern humans, fully fully
29:27developed modern humans.
29:28We've lived through essentially ice ages
29:32during that period and it's been a
29:34tremendously variable environmental
29:36conditions. We did not have the
29:38stability that we could use to develop
29:40the economies as we know. We were
29:41hunters and gatherers, a few million
29:43people. We leave the last ice age
29:45and we barely enter this corridor of
29:47life. And what do we do? Well,
29:49everything settles down so stably,
29:52freshwater, air temperatures, natural
29:56resources,
29:57all the ecosystems, all the
29:59biodiversity, the fish in the oceans,
30:02rainy seasons come and go predictably
30:04year after year. So, we go through the
30:06Neolithic Revolution. We become farmers.
30:09We domesticate animals and plants, which
30:10becomes the starting point of the
30:13journey that takes us to the modern
30:14world of today. So, we know today that
30:17we thrive on a planet that has 14° C
30:22plus minus 1°. And now we're heading
30:24towards 1 and 1/2°. So, conclusion
30:27number one is that
30:29breaching 1.5° C boundary is a big
30:33number, is big danger, and we haven't
30:35been there
30:37since we left the last ice age. It's the
30:38warmest temperature on Earth since we
30:39left the last ice age. And we know with
30:42essentially zero uncertainty that that
30:45leads to more heat waves, more droughts,
30:47more floods, more fires, more extreme
30:50events. And just the heat waves will, if
30:53we start approaching 2° C of warming,
30:56and we're heading in that direction very
30:57rapidly, will be life-threatening to
31:00over 1 billion people in the world. So,
31:03you know, it's happening rapidly. It's
31:06affecting globally and it's affecting at
31:08an unacceptably large number of citizens
31:12in the world. And even if you think that
31:14you can adapt, even if you think that
31:16you live in a privileged corner of the
31:18planet, you know, if 1 billion people
31:21are climatically in a social disruption,
31:26this will cause instability in supply
31:28chains, in the stability of the global
31:32geopolitical situation.
31:33>> to say in politics.
31:34>> can hit back very dramatically in
31:36migration flows, et cetera. So, you
31:39don't want that to happen. So, even
31:41before we even come close to discussing
31:44tipping points,
31:45you have so many unwanted outcomes
31:48already early on the journey, already at
31:511.5° C,
31:53it starts costing. You know, just in
31:55we've experienced 1 year where we
31:57touched 1.5° C, and that was 2024. That
32:00was an El Niño year, the warmest year on
32:03record so far. Insurance companies in
32:05the world estimate that that cost the
32:07global economy over 200 billion US
32:09dollars. In many parts of the US, along
32:12the coast, you cannot even today get
32:16insurance for your houses.
32:17>> my part of California, insurance is
32:19pulling out, basically. Yeah.
32:20>> Because the premium is going up so much
32:23because of the risk that has been
32:26increasing so fast of of floods,
32:30droughts, massively intensified
32:33hurricanes. So, you know, this this is
32:35real and it's today and I haven't even
32:38started to talk about the risks on
32:40freshwater security and on food
32:42security. You know, when you start
32:44having impacts on the stability of food
32:47supply chains, this is another social
32:50instability factor that can hit very
32:53very rapidly. So, you know, and then on
32:56top of that comes the tipping point
32:57risks, which is the risk of
32:59destabilizing the overall system and
33:03having a self-amplified warming. What is
33:05self-amplified warming? Well, that is
33:07the following. Over the past 200 years,
33:10it's us causing the warming and the
33:12planet has been buffering. So, the
33:14planet has been removing 90% of heat and
33:1650% of the carbon dioxide.
33:18What we are at risk of happening is that
33:22we continue the forcing, but suddenly
33:24the planet shifts from being our a
33:26friend, which it has been for 200 years,
33:28to becoming a foe and becoming an
33:30emitter in its own right. Then, of
33:33course, it gets really scary if the
33:35planet and us starts amplifying together
33:40by losing methane from permafrost
33:42thawing, by fires that release carbon,
33:46degraded Amazon rainforest that release
33:48carbon, bark beetle outbreaks in
33:50temperate forests in Canada that
33:51releases carbon. You know, all these
33:54factors can can lead to a situation
33:57where we accelerate the journey
33:59[clears throat] in the wrong direction.
34:01Of course, that is something
34:03we need to avoid and then
34:05you may then say, "Well, but you know,
34:08that is um a risk that
34:11may be correct, but it's somewhere far
34:13in the future."
34:14>> Yeah.
34:14>> But, the the answer, unfortunately, is
34:18that science shows it's not in the
34:19future, it's now.
34:21It's happening faster than we had
34:22expected.
34:24There's one critique to be posed on
34:26science and that is that we've
34:27underestimated the risk and we've
34:29underestimated the pace of change. It's
34:32unfortunate, but that is the reality.
34:33>> Yeah.
34:34>> So,
34:35>> first of all, thanks for responding to
34:37what is just relatively common climate
34:40misinformation. I've heard you say
34:41before that the climate movement, by
34:44speaking so much of the risks, we can
34:46make it feel like a movement that's not
34:48very fun to join because we're just
34:49talking about we need to stop we need to
34:51stop harming the planet. I share this
34:53view and part of the reason I call this
34:55the better future podcast is cuz we want
34:57to talk about like how how much better
34:59the future can be if we solve these
35:00problems.
35:02And you've you've said that the the
35:04solutions aren't actually mysterious at
35:06all. We know exactly what we need to do.
35:09Um and so I do want to talk about that
35:12world that we want to live in and what
35:14it's going to take to get there and how
35:16great it could be to live there.
35:17>> Let me actually start in in the economic
35:19side of this because all economists
35:23recognize and agree
35:25that
35:26constraints is the mother of innovation.
35:29It's like the constraints that puts a
35:31value
35:32on any any capital. And what what the
35:35planetary boundaries does is that it
35:38puts a constraint on on our space. So,
35:42every boundary translates to a budget.
35:44So, you have a carbon budget, which is
35:47today well understood, but you also then
35:49have a budget on biodiversity, on
35:52nitrogen, phosphorus, fresh water,
35:55air pollution, ocean, and all these
35:58budgets translate to the need to be more
36:01innovative, more resource efficient.
36:04It's not possible to to operate on
36:06linear economic models. You have to have
36:08circularity in your system.
36:10And that takes us to the point where we
36:14have a chance to and we see so much
36:16evidence of this of moving away from
36:19inefficient fossil fuel-based energy
36:21provision to much more effective
36:24electric ways of mobility, producing,
36:27you know, all forms of from steel to
36:30built environments to
36:33all forms of consumer goods and and
36:35replacements of plastics. And so, that
36:39is really exciting to see how
36:42how the constraints when we
36:44scientifically can quantify these
36:47boundaries can translate to
36:50trigger innovations that can make us
36:54smarter and more competitive for
36:56industries, but also create a future
36:59which
37:00gets multiple win-win outcomes. It's not
37:03only about solving an environmental
37:05problem, you also have massive benefits
37:08for human health. I mean, remember that
37:11fossil fuel-based driven way of driving
37:13the economy prematurely kills over 5 to
37:166 million people annually per year. Now,
37:19that is a frequency which is higher than
37:22the number of people that died during
37:23the COVID pandemic. So, we're talking
37:26big numbers here.
37:27>> And that's due to pollution?
37:28>> That's due to air pollution. That's the
37:30air pollution related to to fossil fuel
37:32burning. And it's the same essentially
37:35across all these these transitions that
37:37you can see so many benefits that go
37:41across health, security, prosperity, and
37:43equity. So, that that's kind of
37:46the the starting point. This is a
37:48constraint that that can be a lever, can
37:50unleash a a new modern sustainable
37:55future, the future we want. Secondly,
37:58we know today the two most important
38:00transformations we need to urgently
38:03embark on to bring us as close as
38:05possible back into the safe operating
38:07space of planetary boundaries. And the
38:08first one is the energy transition.
38:10>> Right.
38:10>> I mean, phasing out fossil fuels and
38:12having a a renewable green energy power
38:16global economy. It's basically an
38:18electric solar driven future ultimately.
38:20And secondly is the food system
38:22transition. Uh we we got almost shocked
38:24ourselves when we published the second
38:26EAT-Lancet Commission report
38:28uh showing that um
38:30the way we produce and consume food
38:33today is the single largest cause for
38:36breaching planetary boundaries. It's
38:38quite remarkable. It's 30% of greenhouse
38:40gases. It's by far the largest cause of
38:43biodiversity loss. It's by far the
38:45biggest reason for loading the earth's
38:48system with reactive nitrogen and
38:49phosphorus because of overuses of
38:51fertilizers.
38:52It's the largest consumer of fresh water
38:54because of irrigation in particular.
38:57It is the predominant cause of expansion
38:59of land into natural ecosystems. Still
39:03the biggest driver of
39:05area lost in the Amazon rainforest is
39:07for beef and soya, for example. So,
39:10however you turn this, you have two
39:12large transformations.
39:14And the energy transition, moving away
39:17from fossil fuels, is today, I mean,
39:20when we've not had that situation many
39:22years. I mean, I would say somewhere
39:24between 5 to 7 years, where we can today
39:26conclude that replacing oil, coal, and
39:29gas
39:31to power the economy is doable
39:34essentially across all sectors, and
39:36particularly in terms of
39:37electrification,
39:39there is, to begin with, the lowest
39:40hanging fruit here is that it makes no
39:42sense in any economy in the world to
39:45produce electricity from coal. That era
39:48is essentially can only survive with
39:50massive subsidies. And we know that
39:52we're subsidizing fossil fuel-based
39:55uh production systems with over 3
39:57trillion US dollars per year. On the
39:59food system transition, we also have
40:00solutions. We have scalable solutions
40:03that can maintain productivity levels,
40:05not sacrificing on yields, not
40:06sacrificing on incomes for farmers,
40:09delivering more localized, seasonally
40:12adapted, healthy diets with sustainable
40:15intensification practices that exist
40:18today. And and that is quite remarkable
40:21for a sector that represents up to 30%
40:25of the greenhouse gas emissions. So,
40:27it's not utopia.
40:29It's possible to achieve. And the reason
40:32why we're locked in to this
40:34inability to to really accelerate these
40:36transformations is largely that we have
40:39so strong vested interest, so large in
40:42subsidies that kind of keeps us
40:45>> Yeah.
40:45>> stuck in the old paradigm. But if we
40:48start really changing policies, getting
40:51the right incentives, it's not utopia to
40:55get these practices in place because
40:58these are technologies that we that we
40:59know exist.
41:01>> Yeah. First of all, I'm glad you
41:02mentioned this point about innovation
41:04because I feel like there's this myth
41:06that we need to have this profit at all
41:09cost, growth at all costs economy in
41:11order to have innovation. But it's just
41:13so silly to me because to your point, I
41:15love I wrote this down, constraint is
41:17the mother of innovation. There will be
41:18so much great innovation if we simply
41:21aim our economy towards
41:23a safe space for for human health and
41:25and and the health of other species,
41:27that will force us to innovate more
41:29quickly. But what we're getting now is
41:31just innovation for profit. We see
41:34effectively the the degradation of the
41:37quality of services
41:39in order to get as much money from the
41:42the end consumer as possible. That's why
41:44you see things like planned
41:46obsolescence, of products actually
41:48getting worse because it means we have
41:50to buy new ones more quickly and that
41:51drives more profit for the companies
41:53that are producing those products.
41:54That's the type of innovation we're
41:55seeing.
41:56>> Mhm.
41:56>> It's not innovation that's actually
41:58making anyone's life better. So, I
41:59really appreciate you making that point.
42:00But you talked about the the two, you
42:03know, main areas of solutions. Let's
42:06maybe maybe wrap up with a discussion
42:08about the political economy of how to
42:09make that happen because ultimately I
42:12feel like like you said, there's the
42:14vested interests and the geopolitics of
42:16it. It's a major challenge to making
42:18this transition happen. Not only do you
42:19have big sectors of the economy that
42:22have vested interests in keeping things
42:24the way that they are, who are pouring
42:25money into politics to keep things the
42:27way they are, but you also have
42:29uh countries that operate on a model of
42:33international competition in order to
42:35preserve their power and their ideology.
42:37On the geopolitical level, you have this
42:39kind of myth of endless competition with
42:42China that I hear all the time back in
42:44the States between the US and China,
42:46Russia and its imperial ambitions. So,
42:49how do you
42:50uh
42:51you know, I'm not asking you to solve
42:52the entire world here. I know you're a
42:53scientist and not necessarily the the
42:55ruler of the world. How do you think
42:57about
42:58these solutions getting getting adopted
43:02in a political economy like this that
43:03doesn't seem capable of enacting these
43:06transitions? Well,
43:08I I'm I'm glad that you made that point
43:10that yes, I'm merely an Earth system
43:12scientist. So, so why ask this question
43:13to me? And but it's a it's it's it's an
43:15unfair defense line.
43:17I say this just because I think your
43:19question is perhaps the most important
43:21question we have today. And it's a very
43:24frustrating and challenging question
43:25because what the planetary boundary
43:27science shows, what the tipping point
43:29science shows, what all sustainability
43:31science shows is that we need more
43:35collective action than ever before. We
43:37need
43:38>> [clears throat]
43:39>> we need planetary stewardship. We need
43:41to basically recognize
43:43that we're such a large world on such a
43:45small planet, which is under so much
43:47pressure, that we need to manage the
43:49whole planet as one collective.
43:52And we have that evidence exactly the
43:55same time point in history
43:57where we have an all-time low in trust
44:00and such an inability
44:02to work together as a world. So, this is
44:05this is such an unfortunate timing with
44:09all the geopolitical conflicts in the
44:11world. So how do you handle that when we
44:14know that we will not get a consensus
44:16decision at the global level? We can't
44:18even we don't even have the US anymore
44:20joining the climate
44:22>> Yeah.
44:22>> discussions. We have a such a weak uh
44:26United Nations Security Council at this
44:29at this time step. I see though that
44:31there is a way through this, which is
44:35not my favorite way, I would have wished
44:37that we could have stronger global
44:40governance in a democratic, well
44:42transparent, and representative way. But
44:44the way that I think we need to accept
44:47as a as a pragmatic way forward
44:50is to create
44:52coalitions of the willing
44:54that are large enough minorities in the
44:56world
44:57that can start to really implement the
45:01pathways back to the safe operating
45:03space
45:04and to start communicating that and
45:07documenting that journey
45:09so that
45:10the success that very likely will be
45:13generated can be communicated to the
45:16world at large. So you create a kind of
45:19a FOMO
45:20>> Yeah.
45:21>> situation at the planetary scale. And
45:23can that work? Well, actually when you
45:25look historically at large social
45:28transformations, I mean abandoning
45:30slavery or women's voting rights or how
45:34we solved acid rain or how we in the end
45:38came to terms with the risks of
45:40destroying the stratospheric ozone layer
45:42when we signed the Montreal Protocol
45:44it was never a consensus decision.
45:47>> Mhm.
45:48>> It was never a kind of a majority of
45:50countries that agreed. It was always a
45:52large enough minority that that led the
45:56way
45:57and and when they became a large enough
45:59minority
46:01often exceeding 25%
46:04then they become such a strong force
46:07that they could not be neglected by the
46:09passive majority because in the majority
46:11one should remember and that is
46:13definitely the case when it comes to the
46:15unwillingness to move away from oil,
46:17coal and gas not all of them are denial
46:20skeptics or strong vested interest but
46:23they're quite agnostic so they're
46:24sitting on the fence
46:26and they're betting on two horses at the
46:28same time
46:29>> Right.
46:29>> They're both going renewable but at the
46:31same time they're staying on the fossil
46:33fuels because you don't really know
46:34where the world is heading but because
46:37as we've been discussing you and I in
46:38this this part because we have so much
46:40evidence that indeed we are in a
46:43gauntlet one should not underestimate
46:45the challenges of going across the hump.
46:47I mean after all we've been powering the
46:48global economy for 200 years in an
46:50unsustainable planet
46:52threatening way and now we're shifting
46:54away to a new system so
46:56it isn't easy it isn't even easy even
46:58for the Nordics or for
47:00you know
47:01a country like Germany it is challenging
47:03but once you're through
47:05we have so much evidence that the
47:08outcomes will make you a winner
47:12in terms of prosperity, security
47:15equity and more independence. So in
47:19social transformations that has always
47:21been proven to be the way to get large
47:23enough minority to tip over the logic. I
47:25mean take take this mobile phone you
47:28know when when Steve Jobs showed up the
47:29mobile phone for the first time he was a
47:31minority
47:33but it took just a few years and Nokia
47:36collapsed, Motorola collapsed,
47:38Blackberry collapsed and
47:41Apple came out winning and why? It was a
47:43technology that gave a better offer. It
47:46was a better offer in the end but it was
47:47not a majority. So I think moving along
47:51these
47:52paths where we try to get
47:54large enough coalitions of the willing
47:57and and I mentioned this particularly at
47:59this moment when you and I meet because
48:01I just came from Colombia.
48:03And in Colombia for the first time the
48:05Santa Marta high-level meeting was held
48:09where a coalition of the willing of the
48:11countries in the world that want to
48:12accelerate the phase out of fossil fuels
48:14gathered for the first time. And what
48:16happened, which I would argue is very
48:19you know potentially promising, is that
48:21it was 57 countries.
48:24And 57 countries you know, you have 195
48:27countries in the world. So this is
48:28actually more than 25% of the world's
48:31countries gathered. They represent 30%
48:33of the global GDP. So you know,
48:35significant
48:36critical mass.
48:38And they
48:40agreed to commit to hold hands and
48:43collectively start moving away from
48:45coal, oil, and gas. Now, if they succeed
48:48and really start bending the curve, you
48:50could think of a situation already
48:51within 5 years where they start getting
48:54an absolute decoupling from economic
48:56development and planet-damaging fossil
48:59fuel emissions.
49:01And that this, if we then scientifically
49:03can map that journey and start producing
49:06syntheses of showing this is the
49:08benefits it gives economically,
49:10socially, health-wise, security. That
49:13can become it's a kind of a new theory
49:15of change of trying to come from this as
49:18as a you know, David hits Goliath kind
49:21of approach. And um
49:24again, I don't think that is my desired
49:26plan A
49:27>> Right.
49:28>> because I would have wished that we
49:29could be stewards of the entire planet
49:31in one step.
49:32>> Yeah.
49:32>> But I think this is the best we can
49:35offer today and I think we have to give
49:36that a chance to give a chance of
49:39of the coalitions of the willing to
49:41start showing that this can tip over in
49:44social trajectories that can give
49:47multiple benefits and that can be a way
49:49of accelerating the process.
49:51>> I love that and if they are able to
49:54deliver better lives for their citizens
49:55as well,
49:56>> Exactly.
49:56>> then it seems like something that
49:58everyone's going to want.
49:59>> It becomes that attractor. It's the
50:01future you want. It's the modern future
50:03you aspire to, and why why would I then
50:06go backwards into the future or dig
50:08myself deeper into the hole of fossil
50:10fuels? So, that I think is is one way of
50:13kind of saying that, yes, and back to
50:15the scientific diagnostic,
50:17we are in danger, but it's not too late
50:19to turn this around because the planet,
50:21despite all the abuse, is
50:23biogeochemically remarkably
50:26um forgiving still. So, so, you know,
50:29the the window is is closing, but it's
50:32not closed yet.
50:33>> Well, I hope that there's still time.
50:35Well, sounds like there is still time
50:36for her to forgive forgive us and for us
50:39to turn the ship around, and I really
50:40appreciate you sort of ending on that
50:42optimistic note. Also, since I'm here, I
50:45just want to thank you for a career of
50:46amazing work and inspiring not only me,
50:48but so many people I've interviewed and
50:49so many people who who are who are doing
50:51the work of making this transition
50:52happen. Thank you, and I I really look
50:56forward to this better future that you
50:58just described because I do think that
51:00that is starting to happen, actually. I
51:02am seeing that the countries that are
51:03that have made the most progress on the
51:06green transition and the the land use
51:10transition that you talked about are
51:12actually
51:13the better places to live in the world,
51:15it seems.
51:16Coming over here for from the US and
51:19taking uh public transportation to get
51:21here all the way and being in in like a
51:24really beautiful green environment, and
51:26uh you know, I'm I'm getting a little
51:27taste of what it's like to live in an
51:29economy that is actually uh making
51:31progress and not going in the wrong
51:32direction on on climate, and it feels
51:35like
51:36just better quality of life, lower
51:38stress,
51:39uh and it's healthy that the government
51:41here isn't, you know, starting wars left
51:42and right as well. So, maybe there's
51:44something to be said there for
51:46uh not only
51:48solving the climate crisis but also you
51:50know solving some of the other
51:51geopolitical problems that that we've
51:52created as well. So thank you for your
51:54work and thank you for your time.
51:56>> No, and thanks for inviting me. Great
51:57great.
51:58>> To learn more about the conference that
52:00Roxstrom mentioned at the end of the
52:01episode, the one where 57 countries met
52:03in Colombia to decide how to phase out
52:05fossil fuels, check out the link in the
52:07episode description where you can get
52:08information on the next one of those
52:10conferences scheduled for next year in
52:12Tuvalu. And if you want to follow
52:13Roxstrom's work, I've included links to
52:14that in the episode description as well.
52:16And finally, a reminder that Better
52:17Future is an independent podcast that
52:19depends on your support. So if you like
52:21this conversation and you want to hear
52:23more conversations like it, please
52:24support us with a paid subscription. If
52:26you can't do that, it's also really
52:27helpful to give us a five-star rating on
52:29your preferred podcast platform and to
52:31share this episode with a friend who you
52:33think [music] would like it. As always,
52:34stay curious, stay hopeful, and I'll see
52:36you next time. Ciao.

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