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How to Pray the Seven Sorrows w/Immaculée Ilibagiza | Ep. 177 — Transcript

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0:05Welcome to the Catholic Theology Show,
0:06sponsored in part by Annunciation
0:08Circle, a community that supports the
0:09mission of a Maria University through
0:11their monthly donations of $10 or more.
0:13If you'd like to support this podcast in
0:15the mission of a Maria, please go to a
0:17Maria.edu/donate
0:18for more information. I'm your host,
0:20Michael Doffany, and today I am so
0:23pleased uh and happy to have Emac Elie
0:26Giza again on our show. Oh, welcome to
0:29the show.
0:29>> Thank you so much.
0:31>> Really happy to be here on a big day.
0:33>> That's right. That's right. This is one
0:34of the times where we're going to uh
0:36open up the kind of veil and I'll let
0:39you know the day we're recording this
0:40because we're recording this on the
0:42feast of the Immaculate Conception,
0:44December 8th.
0:45>> Yes. This is really one of my the
0:47happiest day of the year for me.
0:49>> Yeah. And your father named you Immacula
0:52right after the immaculate conception.
0:54>> Yes. Exactly. So in school people used
0:57to think my birthday was December 8th
0:59because it was just like a day like is I
1:02mean like every feast but especially the
1:04feast of our lady I think she just throw
1:06flowers to her children. A that's
1:08beautiful.
1:09>> So I think today people who remember her
1:11she really gives a lot good.
1:13>> That's great. And uh we do have anyone
1:15who's interested we have a earlier
1:17episode
1:19>> um and on with immaculiza
1:22on the especially telling your story of
1:24surviving the Rwanda genocide in 1994
1:29>> uh and really the miracles of grace and
1:32healing and forgiveness
1:34>> amidst the uh really just horrific
1:37suffering undergone um in Rwanda. um you
1:41know so so much what like 85% of the
1:45Tootszie tribe
1:46>> were killed
1:47>> that were killed and murdered in the
1:49genocide. So um it's just an amazing uh
1:53story and I would definitely encourage
1:54anyone who's uh interested to go back
1:57and listen to that episode.
1:59>> Uh I think it was I don't know if it was
2:00I can't remember the name of it. It was
2:02something about like finding you know
2:03maybe finding purpose and suffering.
2:06I'll let you your words are the um are
2:08the ones we really need need on that.
2:10But it's really just a powerful story.
2:12>> Um so humbling and uh yet inspiring.
2:16>> Thank you.
2:16>> Thank you. end up
2:18>> and it is all I really wanted to share
2:20writing left to tell and there's always
2:23something in behind like
2:24>> I want to tell people how good God was
2:27so real in that story and you just feel
2:30like how you know you never I never
2:33thought nobody told me that when you are
2:35suffering that God was so much closer
2:37even if we know from our church you know
2:40the teaching of the church you know
2:42suffering our lord gave himself to us
2:44saved us through suffering through the
2:47Our lady suffered in her sorrows in
2:50order for us to be saved today. So, but
2:54going through it during the genocide and
2:55still see the hand of God even much more
2:58purpable was like, "Wow, I want to tell
3:01people."
3:01>> Wow. So,
3:02>> yeah, God is real. God is real in in our
3:05sufferings and God is real in all
3:06sufferings. I remember especially and
3:09ever since we've I think that was almost
3:11two years ago that we did that recording
3:14>> and I've always remembered just that
3:17sense of you're I remember after you s
3:19after you got through and you you came
3:21back to your home and you were
3:22devastated and
3:24>> um you didn't know exactly what to do
3:26and I think I remember you describing
3:28how you threw your rosary down and just
3:30got on the ground. Your house is burned,
3:32you know, like everything was destroyed
3:33and most of your family had been killed.
3:36M
3:36>> uh and uh and you um but it was just
3:39that sense of somehow like that you
3:41heard God's voice saying their journey
3:44is over
3:45>> your journey is not and life is short
3:48eternity is long
3:50>> and life is short eternity is long is my
3:51had been my beautiful prayer.
3:53>> Yeah. And it can end your journey can
3:55end any moment. So take advantage on
3:58moment by moment just to love to do your
4:00best. It wasn't like do big things just
4:03love who you are with care for people
4:06around you so you realize that I don't
4:08have time to lose even crying and
4:10screaming like give it to God but now
4:13what can I do around maybe somebody's
4:15hungry maybe somebody want to greet you
4:17but you busy crying so like no take care
4:21of now and that what will be asked for
4:24and um and then we don't know how long
4:27life will be for I mean every day we
4:29have people who drop down and die.
4:31>> Yes.
4:32>> So, which is not a fear for me. It's
4:34more that I need to be alerted like to
4:36use my time wisely but more carefully
4:41but lovingly. Take care of your family
4:43when you can you know cuz we the
4:46temptation of today especially the
4:48social media you know we can stay and
4:50now we're just scrolling through
4:52Instagram and Facebook this and that. So
4:56there's a lot of reminder that you have
4:58now you can do something good
5:01constructive more than just like being
5:03numb you know.
5:05>> Amen. So this uh we wanted to talk today
5:08about uh your book um on a blessing in
5:11describe uh sorry a blessing in disguise
5:14uh that describes the miracles of the
5:17seven rosaries seven sorrows rosary.
5:20Yes. Um, and this was something that I
5:22think you know we talked about before
5:24our lady's apparitions
5:26>> uh to uh the some young people in
5:29Rwanda, southern Rwanda in Kabo, Our
5:31Lady of Cavejo that was approved by the
5:33church in 2001.
5:35>> Yes.
5:35>> Uh those apparitions were from the early
5:38uh 80s.
5:39>> Yes. Uh and that one of the key things
5:42was that right she told one of the uh
5:45one of the key women right Marie Claire
5:47uh to uh if I have it here was to like
5:50help the whole world come to know
5:53>> the um help teach the whole world the
5:56seven sorrows rosary.
5:58>> Yes. A kid in high school.
6:00>> A kid in high school in southern Rwanda
6:02in a poor village.
6:03>> Yes. And she told our lady to that
6:06question. She said, "Mother, I don't
6:08even have money to take a taxi to go to
6:10the next city. How can I teach the
6:12world?"
6:13>> And our lady said, "My grace can do all
6:15things. You just do your part."
6:17>> So, she must ask, "Do your part."
6:20>> The grace will take it,
6:21>> but who you teach today maybe might be
6:24the one to teach the world.
6:25>> Yeah.
6:25>> With reach people, who knows?
6:27>> And and there's a prayer that's
6:28associated with the um the seven sorrows
6:32rosary, right? Or the rosary of our lady
6:35of sorrows. Mhm.
6:36>> the seven sorrows. And it's uh but it's
6:39this. It says, "Most merciful mother,
6:42>> yes.
6:42>> Remind us always about the sorrows of
6:46your son Jesus."
6:47>> Yeah.
6:48>> And I think that's so powerful because I
6:50do think, you know, certainly in the
6:51United States, uh there are many uh
6:53sometimes uh you know, Protestants who
6:55are nervous when Catholics talk about
6:57devotion to our lady
6:59>> as if it's kind of somehow taking away
7:01attention from Jesus or that it's
7:03idolatrous or something. And yet right
7:06at the heart of this is just Mary like
7:09none of Mary's sufferings were on her
7:11own.
7:12>> All of her sufferings were oriented to
7:16Jesus
7:17>> completely
7:18>> and to the ex to the sufferings of
7:20Jesus. And so this sense of most
7:22merciful mother remind us always about
7:25the sorrows of your son Jesus. Uh so
7:28could you say a word about how this
7:31devotion to our ladies seven sorrows uh
7:34helps us to or helps you to understand
7:38Jesus's sorrows.
7:40>> Oh yes very much so. And like you said
7:42beautifully that prayer was our lady who
7:44taught us to pray it. It's like the
7:47glory be right before every mystery,
7:50every sorrow. So pray this way. So, oh
7:53my, now that you said that, my mind goes
7:56to one time I remember when I was
7:58teaching my children the seven sorrows
8:00rosary. They were little, they were
8:02four, five. I'm like, okay, it's time.
8:04You know, even kids in Fatima, you know,
8:07our lady appeared to them and they were
8:08praying the rosary. So, when I started,
8:10I said, "So, what do you think our
8:12lady's sorrows are?" And very smartly,
8:15one by one was like, "Mom, was she sick?
8:19That's a sorrow." And my daughter was a
8:22little bit older than my son. I was
8:23like, "Mom, when her husband died, when
8:25her mom died,
8:27>> which is all true." Yes.
8:28>> When her father died, I mean, that's a
8:31sorrow.
8:31>> And that it really occurred to me that
8:34wait, our lady never spoke about this
8:37and those were suffering to lose your
8:39husband, lose your mom, to lose your
8:40dad, and now your only child. But it was
8:43about our Lord that she spoke. Every
8:46soul is about him. And because she knows
8:49this is the life, the truth, the way is
8:52the root is the is who we need. So as a
8:55good mother, she's guiding us to Jesus.
8:58Not again to say like, oh, you better
9:00love my son. No, for your own good.
9:02Jesus doesn't need us to be happy, but
9:05we need him. So as a good mother, she's
9:08saying that is the sun. That is where
9:10the light come from. That's where your
9:12peace is. This is where your joy is. So
9:14think about him. So really we were also
9:17shocked just like every sorrow again of
9:20Mary as the seven sorrows is about our
9:23lord. So that prayer alone remind us
9:26always it have touched me in many ways.
9:29First is it's easy to lose hope when you
9:32think that it's all bad. Why me? I went
9:36through that during the genocide hiding
9:38in 3x4 ft with seven women in this tiny
9:42bathroom for 3 months. I remember
9:44thinking I don't even deserve a cell and
9:47like a a criminal yet I have done
9:50nothing wrong. This is so bad. But what
9:54took me out of that desperation was to
9:57realize that but what about my God who
10:02is God and who is pure who was put on
10:04the cross with nails? What about that
10:07beautiful mother was conceived without
10:09sin who had to stand there and hear her
10:13son dying saying her his last words. So
10:17you think you better than them. So that
10:19word will bring me back from getting
10:21into deeper desperation. So when our
10:23lady says always it's almost like that's
10:28why I call this book a blessing in
10:30disguise. It gives you hope like you are
10:33falling in this deep darkness and
10:35somebody grab you like hey remind me
10:38what my God went through. Remind me what
10:41the purest soul have endured so that I
10:44don't lose hope. I don't think it's too
10:46bad for me. And if that comes hold on to
10:50him he was way deeper than where you are
10:54and today he's a king. He can do all
10:56things. So hold on to him. Wow. So it
10:59touches me in both ways. Remind us
11:01always to remember that don't lose hope.
11:04Don't fall into desperation. And then
11:06second people really hurt many people
11:10from the stories many times I hear about
11:13suicide. I mean beside people get sick
11:15truly genuinely but many people commit
11:19suicide because they feel like nobody
11:20cares, nobody loves them. But anytime I
11:24hear those words which I say this rosary
11:26every day remind us it's almost like
11:29remember how he loves you remember how
11:32worthy you are remember how important
11:34you are that the king of kings will die
11:37for you like what then I'm suffering for
11:40somebody maybe who doesn't look at me
11:43when somebody the most important person
11:45literally die for me so that was really
11:49what also helped me during the genocide
11:51every rosary especially the sorrows was
11:54he loves me this much. He was born on
11:57Christmas the third joyful mystery. He
12:00came from paradise. Who does that? Who
12:04leaves a good place to go to a bad one?
12:06Because he loves me. Am I that important
12:09even when they trying to kill me? So you
12:12go to every mystery was in mind but
12:15especially the sorrows. He went through
12:17that. I'm one of those people where God
12:20can I can say God knows the number of my
12:23hair. He does. He's the one who placed
12:26me in the womb of my mother. So those
12:28are the things we need to think about
12:30every day. Thankfully through the rosary
12:33she gives us and gives her the
12:35instruction do this and the sorrows
12:37remember what I went through what he was
12:39going through. And as a mother just ask
12:42me to help you because that what we do
12:44today when we have a friend who have
12:46gone through something we want to hear
12:48from that when a parent is telling a
12:50child oh you don't know how hard it was
12:52for me really good parents what they
12:55mean is be strong you know don't worry I
12:59was there and here I am I'm still
13:01standing so I think that's how to me our
13:04ladies giving us hope through her
13:06sorrows her tears and again because
13:09today she's a queen of heaven heaven on
13:11earth. She's not suffering. I mean, she
13:13does like any good person suffer for the
13:15one going astray. They love, but she's
13:18not now standing under that cross. She's
13:20in heaven. She have been rewarded.
13:23>> So, I love the sorrows for me selfishly.
13:26>> Yeah, that's beautiful. I love in your
13:28in your introduction, you talk a little
13:30bit about how um accepting suffering is
13:33not the same as approving the evil that
13:36causes it.
13:37>> Yes.
13:38>> Uh and I think some people have a
13:39resistance. says, "I don't want to
13:40accept that. I don't want to accept that
13:42my child died. I don't want to accept
13:44that that this happened. I don't want to
13:46accept that God could allow this."
13:48>> Uh, and it seems to be like uh a way to
13:52honor their pain and their suffering.
13:54>> Um, but it is
13:56>> true that the evil is not good. That's
14:00it's it's it is evil. the fact that
14:02people, you know, that that that
14:04innocent die, that uh people murder, the
14:07fact that just
14:08>> um I don't so many different things that
14:10that we suffer. The evil is bad. So,
14:12we're not condoning the evil. We're not
14:14approving the evil. No,
14:16>> but but we are but but it is a choice to
14:19accept
14:20>> yes
14:20>> that this has happened. So could you say
14:22a little bit more about what is what's
14:24like h how do how do you walk someone
14:27through this journey of acceptance which
14:31>> you know I'm you've you've done so many
14:33times. How how do you help someone in
14:35that journey to accept
14:37>> suffering?
14:38>> Yes. I think is maybe by examples and by
14:42cuz it's really it makes you feel like
14:44you honoring the person by holding on to
14:47that pain. I remember being angry during
14:50the genocide towards the people who were
14:51killing my family who were looking for
14:53me too and I felt I was a hero. So it
14:56gives you this sense of force, sense of
14:59justice that here I am, I'm tight, I'm
15:02not sleeping, look because I'm in pain,
15:04because I love. But that's not it
15:07really. You are suffering. Your nerves
15:09are suffering. Your body is suffering.
15:12And when it came to accepting it was or
15:15forgiving, it was more like I can see it
15:18and not be competing with evil, not be
15:21drawn into that evil and holding on to
15:24it. I realized that I was thinking about
15:27people who even hated me more than
15:29people who loved me. So when you were
15:31out of that darkness, that's when you
15:33see like oh this is not really condoning
15:37and this is actually I can see much more
15:39clearer than being obsessed with this
15:42and keep thinking about it. The worst
15:44thing about anger or like pain like that
15:46when you are holding on to ill you
15:48thinking about it again thinking I'm
15:50honoring it becomes like a sickness you
15:53mind you go on over and over and over I
15:56always say with the story of left to
15:58tell I feel like God push me in the
16:00corner and give me a chance to be more
16:02angry okay honor them as much as you
16:05want and be angry as much as you want to
16:08the maximum because I thought I have a
16:10good reason don't you see the whole
16:12world with a with agree with me but then
16:15what I have a headache even that I
16:17justified where I know what is going on
16:20that's why I have a headache then the
16:22headache became worse and worse I
16:24couldn't remember how to smile I was
16:26twisted I was just angry person I
16:29remember even thinking God I just wish I
16:31can smile again and then I remember what
16:34our lady taught us in KBJo her whole
16:36teaching one of the main message was
16:38offer your suffering accept it and work
16:42through it give it to God so that you
16:44can see clear what you can do in a
16:46situation like when I was able to let go
16:48the anger I had towards the killers when
16:50before I was I would kill them I would
16:52do this I really realized that I was
16:55even thinking about things I can't do in
16:57real life in my anger that was becoming
17:00more and more oh I could have killed the
17:03whole country or I thought about flying
17:05planes and throwing grenades and bombs
17:08over the country just like kill them too
17:10as they were killing us but can you
17:12really do
17:14How many people am I going to kill
17:15before they catch me? So, but in my head
17:17I was doing it and the worst thing I
17:19will go back again and again. I'm like
17:22my heart is tired. Can I just be done
17:24with this obsession? So, when you are
17:27holding on to that pain thinking you are
17:29honoring the person, you are really
17:31holding yourself a prisoner. But you
17:34offer it to God all of a sudden you say
17:36like, "Oh, I can do this. I can do
17:38that." When I was able to let go the
17:40anger I had towards the killers which
17:41became like a healing tool of my mind of
17:44thinking about them in this horrible way
17:47how bad how bad they are. The first
17:49thing that happened was the healing of
17:51my mind. Then I had freedom to think of
17:54me to think what I can do in my life. Oh
17:57I started to think I better learn
17:59English because what if I meet people
18:01who speak English? So what is it going
18:04to happen? So I have to keep quiet
18:06because I have to hide from these
18:07people. They're still crazy. But I
18:10wasn't crazy anymore like them because I
18:12would have maybe gone to throw myself in
18:14their hands to fight them with my anger
18:17thinking I can defeat them and then they
18:20kill you or maybe hurt one person. So
18:22accepting pain. I remember one time I
18:24heard I made a man just again some
18:26examples shows you what that is and he
18:29told me his son was killed in accident
18:33and he really was angry but not only
18:36angry but sad towards God how can you
18:40how can you make this happen and he said
18:42one time he literally raised his fist to
18:45the cross and he have refused to go to
18:47mass I don't want to go to pray to you
18:50after all your love happened he raised a
18:52fist to the cross. He said, "You could
18:54have prevented it. You could have spared
18:57my son, but you just let him die." And
19:00he said he heard audible voice, "I did
19:03not spare mine either."
19:06God was watching when Jesus was dying,
19:10when he was being tortured. But that
19:13what evil does that what our sins do.
19:17Sometimes we think our sins are
19:18something, oh, to flirt with easy. and
19:21not only our sins but the sins of our
19:24neighbors. That's why we cannot just
19:26pretend our neighbor don't concern us,
19:29the next country don't concern us. We
19:31have to pray for one another. Not just
19:33to pray for me and my kids, but for
19:35other families too. Because when the
19:38devil, somebody told me this, when um
19:42the devil can't get you as a wife, he
19:45try your husband. When he can't get the
19:47husband, he tries the kids. when he
19:50can't get her the kids, he try family
19:52member, your mother, your father, a
19:54sibling or even a a coworker. So he is
19:59unleashed to hurt, to destroy. So when
20:03you realize that we're in this battle,
20:05this is the world we live in, foreign
20:07world, then you know what is going on,
20:10you do the best to fight, but to fight
20:14smartly, to fight wisely.
20:17You want to look at the devil who is
20:19actually stronger than you and just like
20:21watch him with bad eyes and refuse to
20:24follow Jesus. You're going to remain
20:26there on that side of bitter. You hurt
20:29me, I hurt you back. You hurt me, I get
20:31hurt, I reject God. And the devil makes
20:34you feel like, oh, it's all good. You
20:36see here, I understand you. But he
20:38really doesn't. But the moment you
20:40opened the door to God in forgiving in
20:43offering to him like that man he said
20:46after I heard the voice I said you're
20:49right you did not spare yours and for me
20:53and then he started to go to church and
20:55with that come came crying feeling
20:59relieved and that what I felt when I was
21:02able to let go the anger of my the
21:04killers of my family who were looking
21:06for me. Finally, I can cry. Finally, my
21:10heart can have a break from this
21:13tightness I had in. You hurt me, I hurt
21:16you more. And then I can breathe. That
21:18the nature of who we are. Tears have a
21:20chance and know have a tears. Our tears
21:24have a way of actually communicating
21:27love and healing and that comes again
21:30that the nature of man comes by
21:32accepting. There's something also that
21:34really helped me to accept that like
21:37because of course everyone is like
21:38really how do I accept it's okay to
21:40suffer offer suffering again I don't
21:43know what it is but anytime I fast I
21:47feel stronger spiritually
21:50when I am able to make a sacrifice in
21:53the name of God prevent myself from
21:56doing again whatever I want and even
21:58eating a big meal like let me just eat
22:01enough let me make this little sacrifice
22:03is somehow I am I feel better. We have
22:07um a proverb in French that says
22:12when the body is to is too satisfied
22:15this the spirit
22:17is paralyzed
22:20>> paralyzed.
22:20>> Paralyzed feels paralyzed.
22:22>> Wow.
22:23>> And that is the truth.
22:25>> I studied you know electrical
22:27engineering. I remember in school when I
22:29had an exam of math, if I ate much, I
22:32wouldn't think right.
22:33>> But if I didn't eat and I fasted, I did
22:36real good. So how do you explain that?
22:39So suffering has a way if you suffer
22:42with God willingly, not willingly you
22:45want to put yourself to suffer, but when
22:47you prevent this bad from having
22:50or accept, you know, there's something
22:53good that comes out of that. But that
22:55the journey Jesus showed us. We have to
22:57carry our crosses. Our lady told us
22:59something that really helped me in a
23:01funny way too. She said in Rwanda, she
23:04said in KBJo, she said every single
23:07person carries a cross. Every single
23:10person.
23:10>> And she said when you see somebody
23:13crying, be with them. Support them
23:16because you don't know their moment of
23:18joy will come of course. But if you see
23:20somebody smiling, cheer for them. you
23:22don't know what they are carrying the
23:24cross to. And she also even used to
23:26teach us don't show your crosses to
23:28everybody. Make sure that wisely you
23:31know who you communicate your crosses.
23:33Maybe because you want them to help you
23:35to pray for you but be joyful. Be happy
23:39even when you're carrying a cross. Give
23:41it to our Lord. But that the way we life
23:45is I guess
23:46>> that's amazing. And I um just beautiful
23:48to have you walk us through that journey
23:50of healing. I remember listening to a
23:51talk once on suffering and forgiveness
23:53and the woman I remember always just
23:55said uh she went through the whole story
23:58but the the the kind of punchline was
24:01just that hate is heavy and love is
24:04light.
24:04>> So
24:05>> hate is heavy and just that sense of
24:06falling into resentment and hatred that
24:08is that is a huge burden that kind of
24:11closes our soul and love
24:14>> and turning to God is enlightened. I
24:15also remember father Jacques Phipe uh
24:17writes in a book I think interior
24:19freedom where he says that sometimes we
24:22use our free will in choosing things. He
24:24says most often though we use our free
24:26will in consenting to what we did not
24:29choose right and we really say what our
24:30lady said in Luke 1 to the to to the uh
24:34angel archangel Gabriel who appeared to
24:37her right let it be done to me according
24:39to your word. Now, uh, one of the
24:41stories you include here because I think
24:43it is amazing. So, this poor woman,
24:46>> Yes.
24:46>> young 18-year-old girl, Marie Claire,
24:49>> Mhm.
24:49>> receives this message from our lady to
24:52uh spread the seven sorrows rosary
24:54around, teach the whole world.
24:56>> Yes.
24:56>> And she's like, "How can I do this? I
24:58have no money." All this sort of stuff,
24:59right? And yet here we are and you are
25:01helping, you didn't even know, you
25:03didn't even know English at the time,
25:04right? Now you know English. You are
25:05helping to communicate this. Yes. And uh
25:08but I love one of the stories you told
25:10uh of the pumpkin seeds. So would you
25:12tell me a little bit about the pumpkin
25:13seed story and how this uh how this
25:17relates to what you're doing today?
25:18>> I know right. God really have a way of
25:20sending
25:22a hint almost about your life about what
25:26will come even as simple as I still
25:29remember when I was young I used to sit
25:31somewhere across the the highway because
25:34Rwanda is very hilly and I will see
25:36buses going back and forth and I'm like
25:38I just wish I was able to see like a
25:40city every day somewhere you know like
25:43the driver of the buses like how blessed
25:46they are to be able to see new cities
25:49which I really don't like to travel much
25:51but that's what I'm doing you know I see
25:54a city every two days somewhere
25:56somewhere and feel is like yeah I guess
25:58that what he was saying so when I was
26:00young I happened just we used to I mean
26:04we start teaching kids how to plant a
26:06little seed here and there so when it
26:08comes to the pumpkin I remember my
26:11parents made us plant a seed which was
26:13amazing this is a very simple place you
26:16know where you plant a on and every day
26:19you go to look it grew and like you see
26:21the ground started to to swell a little
26:23bit. The next day, next two days you see
26:26like wow look at me. I put a a grain. So
26:29for the pumpkin we planted a seed with
26:31my brothers and we make a little place
26:33for us. My pumpkin I put it took over
26:37the whole field. It was just like people
26:40like who planted that like yeah that's
26:43her. It looks like her hand is you know
26:45Emma is like four years old I think. So
26:47it became so big. My mom would be giving
26:49pumpkin to the whole village every day.
26:52But that became a cross because now the
26:54whole village wanted me to be the one to
26:56go to plant their pumpkin. Like
26:59literally my mom will take me out of bed
27:02in the morning like 4 in the morning
27:04because it looks like there is I don't
27:06know it is tradition or I don't know but
27:09they said it's good to to plant pumpkin
27:12seeds before the sun comes out. So they
27:15will wrap me in clothes like 4 in the
27:17morning, 5 before the sun come up to go
27:20to plant for neighbors. I'm like I don't
27:22like this. I'm like well the neighbors
27:24are asking they're hungry. But with that
27:27of course I loved it when I grew up that
27:29everyone was like your hand is good. So
27:32later here I am now really planting a
27:35seed around the world. [clears throat]
27:38Yeah, I have gone to every continent and
27:41everywhere I go to Catholics,
27:43non-atholics, I still tell them about
27:45the seven sorrows. This is the story
27:47that happened and I tell people I'm not
27:49trying to convert you but this is really
27:50what have helped me and this is what
27:52have I can smile because I pray the
27:55rosary because I can understand even my
27:58God have gone through suffering. Who am
28:00I to be a prisoner of that pain? When
28:04he's asking me, smile, teach others,
28:06learn from whatever you suffer. Don't
28:09let it take over you. Don't harm
28:11yourself. So people go like, "Oh, okay.
28:14Teach us, where do we get those seeds?
28:15What is that exactly?" Recently, I had a
28:18lady who came to me cuz I again I have
28:21the privilege to be invited in many
28:23different places, not necessarily
28:25Catholic. She came to me. She said like,
28:27"You reminded me of my grandmother."
28:30I'm like, "What is it?" She said, "She
28:32used to have these beads all the time,
28:34the beast of the rosary." I don't know
28:36if it was the seven sorrows, but even if
28:38some people like this weekend somewhere
28:40was in Witchita, some nuns told me like
28:43showed me the beast of the seven
28:44sorrows, really old beasts. They're
28:46like, "Yeah, we we have been praying
28:48this for the past years." Anyway, this
28:50girl told me like you my grandma used to
28:52and I said tell me what your grandma was
28:56in the family because obviously she has
28:57passed away. What do you remember of
29:00her? She started crying. She said she
29:03was the glue of the family. I said and
29:07what's going on now? Who is the glue?
29:09She said after she died we fell apart.
29:12Nobody want to see another. We are
29:14fighting. And I told her do you know
29:17your grandma had pain just like
29:19everybody but our lady have taught her
29:22to see even love into the suffering and
29:26love beyond the suffering and appreciate
29:29even suffering because through suffering
29:32God gives us blessings
29:34if you accept when I mean accept no
29:37anger rebelling why this or fight to God
29:40and if you need explanation of why you
29:42are suffering ask God I don't understand
29:45God will find a way to give you peace in
29:47your heart. But she had her own
29:50suffering, but love was much more
29:52stronger. She saw the blessing in every
29:55situation to love her family. She did
29:58her part, but she had her own suffering.
30:01And then she said, "So what should I
30:04do?" He said, "Pray the rosary. Pray the
30:06seven sorrows rosary. Offer God your
30:09suffering. Because through the seven
30:11sorrows we are given a chance to even be
30:14able to open that pain when people not
30:16understanding how how you go through the
30:19first the prophecy of Simeon a spear
30:22will pierce your heart. This was the
30:25most beautiful woman who was born
30:27without sin and yet imagine what that is
30:30and the more you love the more you
30:32suffer. The flight into Egypt want to
30:35kill your baby and you are innocent.
30:38What did she do? Did she stay behind
30:40throw stones or or curse or gossip? How
30:44dare angry? No. She had to follow the
30:47what God said to her husband St. Joseph
30:51run to Egypt. They left with all the
30:53suffering of the coldness, the suffering
30:55of the hunger in Kib. She told us to
30:58hear my child crying, shivering and I
31:01have no clothes to give him. And we know
31:04we are going somewhere. We don't have
31:05anyone to greet us. They just had say go
31:08to Egypt. God will be with you. So with
31:11that you learn hm I think I've gone
31:13through that maybe in my life especially
31:16you know remember when my dad said go go
31:19to the neighbor but but what what about
31:21you go now God will take care of the
31:23rest just go and they went and never saw
31:26them again. So that pain I said it's
31:29unfair. How can this be through the
31:31sorrows? You remember the mother went
31:33through the losing [clears throat] her
31:35child for three days with the third
31:37sorrow just today it every single day
31:40when I pray the seven sorrows I'm
31:42reminded to pray for people who have
31:44their kids who are kidnapped you know
31:46trafficked because you can't really go
31:48there unless you have a chance to think
31:50about it your own pain maybe a friend
31:53you lost a brother I lost you know
31:57meeting your son her son on the way to
31:59the cross the fourth sorrow imagine to
32:02see somebody you love being tortured and
32:04you know he's innocent. So that's we
32:07suffer a lot because we think it's
32:09unfair. Why my son was an accident like
32:12that man? Why did you not protect him?
32:15But when you go through that like oh
32:18okay he was innocent and this existed
32:22because you have to come from a place of
32:24belief. I always remind people please if
32:27you don't believe fully in God and and
32:30doesn't mean that to believe that you
32:32have seen everything but this is the
32:34decision you have to make if you don't
32:36believe then you won't make the next
32:37step and if you don't understand at
32:40least you know who to ask because you
32:42already have said I believe in you and
32:44with that you have to believe this is
32:46real and if you don't believe it's okay
32:48ask people read about it then you can be
32:51sure I mean this is the most important
32:54thing our faith
32:56that our heaven you know you don't have
32:59I mean I pity a taste because
33:02what is alternative really you you you
33:05losing something there's the possibility
33:07of a paradise you're going to just like
33:09oh I don't want to believe I don't care
33:11and if you don't believe genuinely I
33:13believe God knows how to work with us
33:15obviously he's going to ask us from what
33:18we have been given sometimes people
33:20don't believe truly genuinely because
33:22nobody explained to them And that's why
33:25we have a big job to share you know to
33:28do something like what you're doing to
33:30have a podcast you know share because
33:32that people kindly truly genuine kind
33:35people who don't know anything about
33:37Jesus I come from Rwanda I know some
33:39bushes where people are just like
33:42surviving every day behind the mountains
33:44never going to school never going to
33:46church like one of the visionary I wrote
33:48about the boy who made Jesus so the
33:51fifth our lady uh standing under the
33:55You cannot think about this every day
33:58and still and we believe that these
34:00people existed are real and meditate on
34:04what they went through in their
34:05innocence and still feel like oh how
34:08pity me too bad for me look what
34:10happened to me every day there's like
34:12your pain is accepted the grace is given
34:16the grace is given but you have to make
34:17that step start praying and one of the
34:21best thing I love about our lady she
34:23have shared with us. I can't tell you
34:26how I almost want to dance of joy saying
34:29like, "Yes, thank you for giving me the
34:31secret. Pray, pray, pray." Those are the
34:35words she always say three times. Pray,
34:38pray, pray. My children, I want you to
34:41have peace, but you really can't have
34:43peace unless you pray, pray, pray.
34:46Unless you're connected to my son who is
34:48life, who is the way, who is everything,
34:50the breath we take. So if you can't
34:53communicate with him and open your heart
34:55to him, you won't have him. She even
34:59told us the most pious person, this
35:01really scared me cuz I used to think
35:03like you know you are there everything
35:05is good now but she said the most pious
35:08person can lose their faith if they stop
35:10praying. What I thought it was a
35:13knowledge like you are supposed to have
35:15and you're done. Nope. It's a
35:17relationship just like husband and wife
35:19you stop you know talking communicating
35:22listening to the other person you are
35:25driven apart and you forget even how to
35:28love each other like a friend you don't
35:30communicate with yes maybe somebody
35:32knows you you can still communicate but
35:34when it comes to a connection it comes
35:37from prayer for that communication and
35:39if we are supposed to love Jesus above
35:42everyone which is a commandment not a
35:45suggestion
35:46We supposed to talk to him more than we
35:48talk with any other human being. We're
35:51supposed to stay with him more. We're
35:53supposed to adore him, read more about
35:56him. Because how do we tell people we
35:58love most? We want to be around them.
36:01And many times it comes naturally. But
36:04again, we know in the family, our kids,
36:06we love them. But we make an effort to
36:08hear them, to want to be around them, so
36:11we can know what is going on. Not
36:12because we're attracted to them, we
36:14can't help it. But we make an effort
36:16because the love is real. So if Jesus is
36:19prayer also that open that heart that
36:22really comes with the grace even to help
36:24people open the heart to heal. Yeah. The
36:28question you asking me earlier about how
36:29do you even help somebody to accept
36:31their suffering? When you can't find
36:33words, you're like just start praying.
36:35Start talking to Jesus. Make more time.
36:39Believe. If you can't believe search,
36:42find doctors like you. You know, ask
36:45theological questions. This is
36:47important. Number one question anyone
36:49should be asking about about faith. And
36:52don't pretend like, oh, it's all good. I
36:53do believe. But ask if you don't. And
36:57sometimes all you need is a sign. I
36:59remember in the bathroom asking God, are
37:02you there? Just give me one sign that
37:04you are real. And I remember what I
37:06asked. I cuz of course you won't ask
37:08forever. I said the killers were there
37:11in the house searching
37:13a house of four bedroomedroom and the
37:16three to 400 people outside in my
37:18humanic capacity to think. I knew there
37:21is no way they will not find us. They
37:23have every right they were in the
37:25ceiling with flashlights on the roof of
37:27the house. The man of the house they
37:29threw him out. So obviously they are now
37:32the owners of that house. Four bedroom
37:34and there's two bathrooms in the house.
37:36They won't open one door. It's
37:38impossible
37:40until of course I start to hear the
37:42voice in my heart that is always there
37:44of God asking you to trust him because
37:47with him all things are possible and I
37:50remember asking him so you mean there's
37:52a possibility they might not find me but
37:55I'm not even sure if you exist and then
37:57I ask him if you exist
38:00then don't let them find the door if
38:03they don't open this door I will know
38:06for sure you are here and I will not
38:08question you again unless I am
38:10disappointed by something but I will
38:13throw myself in you. And that day they
38:15came and searched and stopped at the
38:17door and turned around. So I couldn't
38:20ask. So show me another thing because
38:22sometimes we're not really sincere in
38:24our asking God show me. No, it was like
38:27okay
38:28>> until now here I am. I believe in you.
38:31And that was the best thing ever to act
38:34like you believe 100%. And if I fall,
38:38which I do,
38:40especially to love, to love better, to
38:42love more, to do what I'm supposed to
38:44do, I have to go to confession because I
38:46know the one I believe in who is all
38:49love, I failed. So yeah, so through this
38:52suffering of our lord the under the
38:54cross receiving the body of our lord you
38:57know one of the genius thing I think our
38:59lady does through these sorrows every
39:01sorrow you think about she always said
39:05ask yourself what if it was me so with
39:08that comes h let me think about
39:10somewhere maybe I have felt the same
39:13like receiving the body of a lord I
39:15didn't receive the body of a loved one
39:18but I remember going to find the bodies
39:20of my parents where they killed them and
39:23my friends refused me to see them to see
39:26my mom but I saw my brother his bones
39:29and that pain you don't even know how to
39:32explain it to see the bones the ribs of
39:34somebody you love naturally we suppose
39:37somebody dies you bury them you never
39:39see their bones unless you are a saint
39:42but to see the feet of your brother it
39:45was a pain like just like you you shake
39:48inside your blood but Every sorrow our
39:51lady through the body of our lord on the
39:54sixth sorrow I always cried thinking
39:58yeah my brother like that's where my
40:00mind goes and slowly when before I
40:04couldn't even think about it without
40:06shaking slowly it's like the wound was
40:09being healed the more I prayed the more
40:11the wound is healed the seven sorrow the
40:14placing of the body of our lord to bury
40:17against somebody you love sometimes the
40:19suffering you can't explain to people. I
40:21know somebody recently who who lost a
40:24friend and he wouldn't go to the finer
40:26to after the church. She say I don't
40:28want to see him under the ground because
40:30it's a new suffering a human being have
40:33to to struggle with. You don't just make
40:36sense is really suffering to see your
40:38friend somebody you love underground but
40:41our lady went through it. So she's
40:43giving you a chance almost like a
40:45therapy. That's again the reason why I
40:48call this a blessing in disguise. It's a
40:50healing is a spiritual therapy. You get
40:54to know things you don't know until
40:57after you start to pray, pray more, read
41:00the word of God more, question more,
41:03make friends, you can talk about it.
41:05Sometimes I have invited people in my
41:08home and really I did few times which of
41:10course people look at you crazy until I
41:13made good friends who love God. We're
41:16talking you know for fun you know this
41:19going on the game this after like can we
41:22talk about Jesus it just he like you
41:25miss it we spend two hours there's
41:27nothing about him we're just talking
41:29about who what happened the school this
41:32can we talk about Jesus it feels so good
41:35you know what do you think about this
41:36miracle he did you know and then you
41:39just feel like life come comes to to the
41:42bones when you are
41:44>> yeah that is Um, wow. That was just a
41:47beautiful way of right planting those
41:50seeds, planting those pumpkin seeds in
41:52our hearts and walking through those
41:53seven
41:55>> sorrows of our lady. Uh, we're going to
41:57take a a break in in a minute and uh
41:59just I want to say thank you to a
42:01sponsor uh Catholic Mass Times app, the
42:03Orange Icon app.
42:05>> Uh it's great for traveling around the
42:07world, right? whenever wherever you are,
42:08you can find a a local Catholic church
42:11where our lady our our Lord is present
42:14in the blessed sacrament.
42:16>> Amen.
42:16>> And uh you know where where our lady is
42:19honored and we can ask our lady to help
42:20us uh remember right the sorrows
42:23>> of of her son. So we we'll be back in a
42:26moment.
42:27>> You're listening to the Catholic
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42:51And now, let's get back to the show.
42:55Mlay is the author of Left to Tell, uh,
42:59Discovering God Amidst the Rwanda
43:01Holocaust. Uh, they came out with that
43:03was 2006, I believe. Uh and then uh this
43:07most recent book, A Blessing in
43:09Disguise, Miracles of the Seven Sorrows
43:12Rosary, um published by Hay House and uh
43:15thank you so much for walking us through
43:18um right this aspect. I have a family
43:19member who has started praying uh with
43:21his wife
43:22>> the seven sorrows rosary and he said in
43:25a way he said it helps to
43:26anthropomorphize Mary.
43:28>> Yeah.
43:29>> Right. But it makes Mary seem more
43:31human.
43:32>> So we can see her as a like an older
43:34sister, a mother who can help us.
43:38>> And you mentioned two uh prayers or two
43:41quote quotes from sayings from Mary
43:44>> in her apparitions to in our Lady
43:47>> Cabo
43:48>> and these were the two that struck me.
43:50One was like, do you want me to bring
43:53God's healing into your life?
43:55>> Right? This idea that we we're we're
43:57children. We really have to give up the
44:00illusion that we can stand on our own
44:02two feet. Uh we are fundamentally
44:04children of God adopted by the free gift
44:06of grace. Uh one by Jesus on the cross
44:09given in the Holy Spirit, right?
44:11Communicated through faith and baptism.
44:13Right. Absolutely. But God doesn't just
44:16like adopt us as individuals. He adopts
44:18us into his family.
44:20>> Yes.
44:20>> And so we have of course, right, Mary is
44:23a mother. We have all these siblings,
44:24right? We have cousins. We have all the
44:26saints, right? And but this idea that do
44:29we really want can we do we want Mary to
44:32help us bring God's healing into our
44:34life?
44:35>> And the second one was this one. I
44:36wanted you to to look at this is she
44:38said pray the rosary not as Catholics
44:42but as my children
44:44>> and you will experience my help and
44:46heavenly peace in your lives. Yes.
44:48Right. Pray the rosary not as Catholics
44:50but as my children. Yes. And you will
44:53experience my help and heavenly peace
44:56>> in your lives.
44:57So true. She said that and with that I
45:00have convinced many of my Protestant
45:03friends to pray it and sometime they
45:06resist until they're going through a
45:07hard time and then they start praying it
45:10and they really experience her help.
45:13She's really a mother. This is what
45:15again the best thing I ever experienced
45:17in Nik who I love is to come to
45:20understand that God, our Lord, our lady
45:23are so intertwined with us. They live
45:26with us. we just can't see them. I
45:28remember one time the visionary she told
45:30our lady was telling her they are
45:32recording you. So the professor of
45:35French that time put took brought like
45:38the tape recorder during the apparition.
45:40So for her she can see her alone. She
45:43said but mother nobody is here. Nobody
45:46would even know where we are. We are so
45:48far away in this amazing place. And our
45:51lady will smile and she would say like
45:53why do you keep smiling? I'm telling
45:55you, I know there's no one here. And
45:58[snorts] then our lady said, "Child, the
46:00same way you can see me and they can't
46:04see me and yet they can see you. The
46:07same way you can't see them and yet you
46:11can see me." So she said, "What do you
46:14mean? You mean like somebody's around
46:15us? I can smell the grass. I can see the
46:18light. I can see you. I can hug you. And
46:20there's somebody we cannot see." Again,
46:23our little smile. Yes, that how the
46:25spiritual world is. That's how God is
46:28powerful. So all of a sudden I'm like,
46:29"Oh my, you know, what is here we can't
46:32see because God can see our thoughts,
46:34our actions, but he works with us. Our
46:37guardian angels are here with us and
46:41that reality we know it but somehow we
46:43think we are alone. So our mother, her
46:46role is to guide us to Jesus. She's
46:49given to us as a mother to help us. I
46:52mean look at us human being we help each
46:54other like we help each other I can come
46:57to ask you for help and I'm praying to
47:00Jesus but I can come to you and I'm sure
47:01he would use you to help me something
47:03I'm asking but mother Mary is his mother
47:07just like Arana you know what she did do
47:11whatever he tells you she knows him more
47:13than we can ever know but the reality to
47:16to grab the reality that they are with
47:19us and they're real so one time So the
47:23in investigators of the church they
47:26asked the visionary Mary Cla the same
47:28one who spread the seven sorrows. So
47:30they they told her why you act like you
47:32are talking to Mary your mother. Yes she
47:35is your mother. Fine. Yeah we know that
47:37theologically you know but she's a queen
47:40of heaven and earth. So you have to be
47:42respectful because they got used to her.
47:45They will say darling mom. And then the
47:49lady said, "I don't think we're talking
47:51about the same woman." But the one I
47:54see, she's a queen of heaven and earth.
47:56You can't even stand in front of her
47:59without going to knees. That how
48:02glorious and how beautiful and too good.
48:05But her sweetness, her gentleness, her
48:08humility is like having the most
48:10beautiful queen asking you, "Come
48:12closer. Don't be fearful." She would
48:15even ask them take a deep breath because
48:18she knew they were scared to come closer
48:20to her. Take a deep breath cuz their
48:22heart would be beating. So to this day
48:25it had been 40 years 45 almost now since
48:28our lady appeared in
48:30>> I don't think there is two days goes by
48:32without having to say okay let me wake
48:35up early in the morning close my eyes
48:37and try to feel how that feels like
48:39because I want it to be real. I want to
48:42feel that love, that person that I can
48:46put my hands up. I'm like, "Mom, can you
48:47touch my hand?" You know, like don't
48:49take it too much just like, "Okay, let
48:51me read what Jesus said 2,000 years
48:54ago." And it's true what he said, but
48:58it's today that he's speaking to us.
49:01It's today that his mother is there and
49:03I think he's there watching you, you
49:05know, saying like, "I love you." with
49:07the new challenges we have 2,000 years
49:10ago they didn't have but the same words
49:13the same principles are the same
49:15>> so our sweet mother really when she say
49:18pray the rosary every day pray the
49:19rosary not as Catholics she's inviting
49:22the whole world to pray it at least
49:24those who believe in Jesus
49:26>> I was one time recently praying I told
49:29my friend she's a Mormon so she helps in
49:32Rwanda and charities so we went together
49:35and then I'm like oh we're going to take
49:374hour drive I usually pray the rosary so
49:40she's like anyway tell me about it maybe
49:42we do together so I start to explain to
49:44her I started from the beginning joyful
49:47mysteries sorrowful glorious and then I
49:50said let's start I'm not kidding we did
49:53two hours we were on a second joyful
49:56mystery because I explained a lot on
49:59wrong road and the second we started the
50:03second joyful mystery our lady goes to
50:05visit her cousin Elizabeth. All of a
50:07sudden on the street we have just
50:10arrived on a church of the visitation
50:14and outside of near the street there is
50:17Mary and Elizabeth hugging each other
50:19big statues lifesize. So the moment I
50:23said I got like oh wait that's them. And
50:26then she said did you think about it?
50:29Okay did you did you know we were going
50:31to reach there? I'm like how in the
50:33world will I know? Do you know rosary
50:35takes 15 minutes 20? But because I
50:37explained it took this long. We just
50:39arrived here. Oh, she was right. She's
50:42like, "Okay, who who is around us?" I'm
50:45like, "I'm kid. I'm not kidding. Our
50:46lady told us she's listening to us and
50:49they have that capacity to be in every
50:51place to be able to see everyone." So in
50:54the end she said I just wish in our
50:57region we have some scriptures we can
51:00meditate on every day that kind of like
51:03close the story not just like about his
51:06birth that's the day that we can go
51:09through his death can go through his
51:11resurrection he's like this is really a
51:13gift so anytime we are together she's
51:15like well I don't mind if you pray we
51:18can pray the rosary and oh I I've seen
51:21healing I've seen prayer I answered one
51:24of my protest and friend we prayed the
51:26rosary her brother was about to be
51:28deported from the country she was so
51:30scared she said do you really think she
51:33you really mean it our lady said it's
51:35okay for us too and those promises
51:37concern us before she was like you crazy
51:40Catholics I said yes she does I told her
51:43the rosary on the phone and all night
51:46she prayed the rosary non-stop they were
51:48going to see the judge the next day and
51:50she called me laughing the next day
51:52she's You won't believe what happened.
51:54The church accepted and gave permission
51:57to my brother to stay in the country and
51:59actually gave him proper papers and
52:01whatever permission. So she was like I
52:03don't promise you to be Catholic but I
52:05will pray the rosary all my life.
52:07>> So when our lady says you shadow of 10 I
52:12always tell people just don't give up.
52:14And when you pray it pray the rosary of
52:17the heart when you say forgive us which
52:19is a part of the rosary. Our Lord is
52:21prayer. Make sure you forgive when you
52:24say our father. He's a father of
52:26everybody. So whatever sin have tented
52:29in our mind like when I was praying
52:31during the genocide I'm our father but
52:34you are just the father of our tribe and
52:36the fooliness not the bad guys. No he is
52:39the father of everybody. So like a good
52:42rosary first transforms you. And with
52:46you transforming, listening to those
52:48words, there's no way God doesn't come
52:51to help you. Either he comes to give you
52:53what you want or to give you better or
52:55to change your mind. There are many
52:58things I prayed for. And after time of
53:01praying and fasting and going to
53:03confession every week, every twice a
53:05week, just to make sure my heart is
53:06clean and I am in good terms with God,
53:09my daily rosary. All of a sudden, I'm
53:11like, why didn't I care so much about
53:13that? You see, God is good. He can
53:16change even our mind. Yeah.
53:18>> Yeah. That's a beautiful and I love that
53:21aspect too, just of um like our our
53:24Catholic identity is is really just to
53:28be a child.
53:29>> And so it's um it it is also it is
53:31definitely also right a formal
53:33institutional right you know that the
53:35church can't exist and not exist as an
53:38institution right there there's we're
53:40we're human beings we're political.
53:42We're historical. If Jesus founds a
53:45church, it's going to have to exist and
53:46it's going to be visible and
53:48identifiable. But just like my family is
53:50visible and identifiable and even has a
53:53legal thing, right? The the reality of
53:56my family is just is is that legal
53:59structure, but as it's experienced in my
54:02heart,
54:02>> it's the connection that I feel towards
54:05my wife, my parents, you know, siblings,
54:08children, grandchildren, right? You
54:09know, that's the and and and it's like
54:12that's that sense that you know, in some
54:13ways, you know, that that that word
54:15Catholic really just means whole,
54:17universal. And so it means right God is
54:19right
54:20>> the my my God is my father, right? That
54:23is that beautiful thing. And that God
54:24who is my father is also our father.
54:26>> Yes.
54:27>> Uh and that's really the be beautiful
54:29message of of Jesus. You know, one thing
54:31I wanted to uh just say for people who
54:34you go through this a little bit in the
54:35book. I've done some um research on it
54:37as well. So the uh the devotion to our
54:40lady of sorrows right you as you point
54:42out goes back to scripture itself that
54:44talks a lot about Mary and her sorrows
54:46and her sorrows related to Jesus
54:48>> uh right you know all the seven sorrows
54:50are just ones that are in the gospels
54:53especially this uh the gospel I think
54:55it's Luke and two the um after you know
54:59a sword you're will also pierce your
55:02soul Luke 2:34
55:04>> um
55:05>> but then it's in the uh 13th century I
55:07think like 12:38
55:10that the seven uh seven uh kind of
55:13wealthy men devote themselves to prayer
55:15>> and our lady appears to them and asks
55:18them to begin praying uh and making
55:20known the seven sorrows of our lady.
55:23Yeah.
55:23>> Uh they become the servants of our lady
55:25or the servites and then in the 14th
55:28century
55:29>> St. Bridget of Swed Sweden also, right,
55:32has this um our lady appears to her and
55:35asks her to make known the seven sorrows
55:39of our lady and the seven sorrows
55:41rosary. And then that's present in the
55:44church for 800 years, right? And then
55:47our le of cabjo, right, is kind of the
55:50current um time when our lady really
55:52says pray the seven sorrows of of uh
55:54rosary. Yes. Uh, and so how would you
55:58kind of just for people who might be,
55:59you know, uh, I don't know, who just
56:01want to kind of like begin learning how
56:02to do this? Now, you of course had a
56:04little bit of a shortcut. You'd heard
56:05about this as a child. You were 12, I
56:06think, when you heard about the
56:08apparitions,
56:09>> uh, and when you heard about the, uh,
56:11Seven Sorrows rosary. You also, um,
56:15according to your book, you were, uh,
56:17you couldn't figure out how to memorize
56:19the the, um, the rosary, the Seven
56:22Sorrows rosary. So you were going to bed
56:24one night and you said that you were uh
56:26taught in a dream and when you woke up
56:27you had it memorized.
56:29>> Yes. You know I thought about it. I I
56:31used to teach people about the seven
56:33sorrows. I will speak about it but I
56:35would always have a book. So I think God
56:38was like enough is enough. Now you have
56:40to be able to memorize it. I truly this
56:42is what happened. I woke up in the
56:44morning my mouth was literally somebody
56:46almost like touching it like making me
56:48repeat
56:50every prayer. every prayer and then I
56:52realized it was a story. It was our Lord
56:56the first sorrow the prophecy of Simeon
56:59our Lord was 40 days. So with that comes
57:03the beginning of the sorrows of Mary. Of
57:05course she had many other suffering but
57:07now that is really when Simeon said
57:10espir will pierce your heart and then
57:12you go his 40 days. Then the second
57:14sorrow he's 12 years old when he went to
57:16the temple to preach and um he stayed.
57:19He's excited. A friend of mine we pray
57:21together. I have a prayer group of the
57:23seven sorrows. She told me Immaculate
57:26our Lord was not lost. our lady just
57:29couldn't find him. I'm like, you're
57:31right. Yeah, because he was excited
57:33about his work and but this is the
57:36perspective of his mother again teaching
57:38us too what was he doing then you
57:41meditate why was he what was he talking
57:44to them and uh how she dealt with her
57:46pain because that's life we live in the
57:48third now so 40 days 12 years old and
57:53the third is when he no the loss the
57:55loss when he was 12
57:57>> that's the third the second is the
57:58flight to Egypt
57:59>> the flight to Egypt when he's under
58:00three years remember when Herod said,
58:02"Okay, kill every child under one." No,
58:05under two years.
58:06>> So then we know for sure he won't
58:08escape. So he was in that range there.
58:11So 40 days consecration to the father in
58:14a temple under two years old and now 12
58:17years old and um now he's the last
58:21sorrows are all in one day the good
58:23Friday meeting Jesus on the way to the
58:26cross standing under the cross receiving
58:29him after he died and placing him in the
58:32tomb. So the four sorrows are all in one
58:34day which by the way one day the
58:38visionary woke up with red eyes and
58:41swollen like she said it was like a
58:44wounded was like a cut inside so she
58:46went to the nursery she said I don't
58:48know what happened my whole eyes my
58:49whole face is swollen and our lady
58:51appeared to her that day she said today
58:54I gave you a gift of my eyes when my son
58:58was placed in the tomb that's how my
59:01eyes were So she was giving her all her
59:04sorrows to connect more to her and
59:07that's again how we are you know when we
59:09love people we want to understand them
59:11what happened how did it happen what did
59:13you do you know that's a sign of love so
59:16I already gave her that sorrow so she
59:18understand what she went through so for
59:21anyone who is really trying to know the
59:23rosary the seven sorrows it is a it is
59:26in chronological order you start when
59:29Jesus is little again this is the
59:31perspective of his mother and you think
59:34what if it was me? What do you think she
59:36felt? So that's where she want us to go.
59:38The six when she received the body the
59:41same day again and the seventh when they
59:43place him in a tomb. So you can
59:44literally tell somebody like your friend
59:47somebody happened. I can tell you the
59:48story of my my dad what happened the
59:51night before and my brother came home
59:53and when he gave me a rosary he asked me
59:55to run and the eyes I saw in his face
59:58and the fear about polishness and the
1:00:01pain. So like people you love you can go
1:00:03through the story even talking about it
1:00:05except that our lady said between every
1:00:08sorrow after you think about what you
1:00:10think I went through say seven
1:00:12headmaries and our father and then the
1:00:14beginning prayer most merciful mother
1:00:17remind us always never let us lose hope
1:00:21remind us how I am loved remind us who
1:00:24saved me remind us who he is and what he
1:00:27did for me it is all about the sacrifice
1:00:30the love in that sacrifice ice and we
1:00:33have to love him just like we love
1:00:35anyone who is kind to us. Remember what
1:00:38Jesus did, gave his life willingly. We
1:00:41can all suffer. Oh, I remember during
1:00:43the genocide telling Jesus, I can't lie
1:00:45to you. If you gave me power for one
1:00:47second, I would kill 8 million people
1:00:50from the other tribe. How did you do it?
1:00:53You had power and you held it and you
1:00:56still used it willing. I mean like
1:00:59wisely not hurting a person and I'm
1:01:02crying. You have nails in your body. Too
1:01:05bad I I don't know if I would do that.
1:01:07No, I won't. You know, I would just tell
1:01:09him and that really made me love him and
1:01:12respect him too. Jesus had to come real
1:01:14for us. A friend we walk with otherwise
1:01:18we never connect to him and we not
1:01:20benefit from the true what he did for
1:01:24us. So I would tell somebody learn how
1:01:27to do it. Go on Google, get my book left
1:01:30to hell. I mean, our lady of Kho, I have
1:01:32the rosary there or to my website
1:01:34makra.com. I mean, you can go to Google
1:01:37just find out how to pray the seven
1:01:38souls rosary. But do it and please teach
1:01:42somebody please because our lady used to
1:01:45tell us my children help me help me and
1:01:48I really thank you for what you're
1:01:49doing.
1:01:50>> Absolutely. Last last thing I want to
1:01:52just address is some of the miracles
1:01:53that you've associated. Obviously, I
1:01:55think the greatest miracle and uh Dr.
1:01:57Robert Redfield who was on the show
1:01:59about the power of redemptive suffering.
1:02:01>> Uh he was the head of the CDC but he
1:02:03spoke about that really what he began to
1:02:04see the real miracle at was at Lords was
1:02:07not um was not the healings
1:02:10>> but it was the acceptance of suffering
1:02:12and finding joy in it. Um
1:02:15and there also sometimes are heal our
1:02:18our external healings as well. Yes.
1:02:20>> Uh so but we need to pray for the
1:02:22acceptance. I think sometimes people
1:02:23think I can't accept and of course you
1:02:25can't. Mhm.
1:02:26>> Of course, you can't accept suffering on
1:02:28your own. Of course, you're filled with
1:02:30resentment and anger. You need, it's a
1:02:31miracle. You have to ask our lady
1:02:34>> to intercede as she did at, you know,
1:02:36we're water and we're drying out, right?
1:02:39You know, we're we're empty jars,
1:02:42>> right? You know, and we need to ask her,
1:02:43as she did at Kaa, to Jesus,
1:02:46>> like they're they're running out.
1:02:49>> Jesus, you need to give them wine. You
1:02:51need to give them the the wine of the
1:02:52Holy Spirit, this gift. And uh but you
1:02:56mentioned three three things. I just
1:02:57wanted to share this because uh one is
1:02:59uh recovery from addiction.
1:03:01>> Yes.
1:03:01>> A second thing is uh um infertility.
1:03:04>> Yes.
1:03:04>> Uh and also incurable illnesses. Would
1:03:07you just say a word about the some of
1:03:09the blessings that our lady has
1:03:12>> uh done or some of these things that we
1:03:14can people might go to? Obviously one
1:03:16praying for acceptance and that miracle
1:03:18and gift and yet also other things and
1:03:20just trusting that
1:03:22>> God has the best plan. Right. I always
1:03:23think it's sometimes that idea is like
1:03:24God's plans are the best plans. So
1:03:26>> I don't understand it but I do believe
1:03:28that God has a plan and that he will
1:03:30bring it about in this life or in the
1:03:32next
1:03:33>> completely and also acceptance really
1:03:35again just to come back to that it
1:03:37doesn't mean that okay fine I guess I'm
1:03:40I'm doomed to fail you know let's say
1:03:42you are a student like oh it looks like
1:03:44math is really hard for me so
1:03:46>> let me just accept it not that way you
1:03:49accept that this is hard for me some
1:03:51people are blessed by math
1:03:53[clears throat] becoming so easy for
1:03:54them but for you is hard. So this means
1:03:57maybe I'm going to work harder. So in
1:03:59acceptance there is also wisdom that
1:04:01comes. Accepting that I'm sick. I'm
1:04:04accepting that I don't have that skill.
1:04:07Acceptance that I don't have that gift
1:04:09another person have. And if that comes I
1:04:12will work harder and I even have to see
1:04:14do I need that. So that is really good.
1:04:16So miracles that happen, I love them
1:04:20because again as people I mean if my
1:04:23friend comes to me and say I'm hungry
1:04:25I'm not going to say like yeah pray
1:04:27about it. I'm going to try so hard to
1:04:29give them food. And sometimes hey
1:04:32there's no way we can find the
1:04:34restaurant no food. Just pray. Don't
1:04:36worry be patient or maybe it's good for
1:04:39you because sometimes somebody can get
1:04:41sick and the doctor said don't give them
1:04:43food. If you do it will be bad for them
1:04:46or this is better you know a kid want to
1:04:48go to party I'm like you have an exam
1:04:50tomorrow make that sacrifice you better
1:04:53study so again what is suffering is not
1:04:56always for a bad outcome sometimes it's
1:04:59better to suffer so that's why when we
1:05:01ask our lady for healing we have open
1:05:04heart by I'm rich I'm bad I I would
1:05:07guess when I mean this I always tell our
1:05:09lady so if you don't like it change my
1:05:11desire don't don't let I keep hungering
1:05:15for something and for anything I want
1:05:17I'm praying for and I think I'll tell
1:05:19anyone please make sure it's not sinful.
1:05:22I'm not praying for another person to
1:05:24get hurt. That's not a prayer you
1:05:25address to God or I can just take that.
1:05:28No, it's not a prayer. You wish good God
1:05:30is love. So if it is somewhere love and
1:05:33even if I don't understand well I ask
1:05:35God to to help me. But if I'm really
1:05:38wanting that job so badly, I'm going to
1:05:42ask God to help me. And if he doesn't
1:05:45like it, give me better maybe. I
1:05:47remember one time looking for a job. And
1:05:50I was praying. I was fasting. I really
1:05:52wanted that job. And then after time, we
1:05:55were only two who had to compete for the
1:05:57job. So how do you pray for the other
1:05:59person not to get it when God is love?
1:06:02So I'm like, hm, let me see how I can
1:06:03pray for this. So I start to pray for
1:06:05that girl to find a better job somewhere
1:06:07else because you have to love that
1:06:10person is a child of God too. So you
1:06:13can't say like I hope she fails so then
1:06:15I can get it. That's not from God.
1:06:17That's not a nor good prayer. So it's
1:06:20like when is love how can I wish the
1:06:22other person have even more better you
1:06:25know but it's okay to tell God cuz he's
1:06:28author of all good things. If that what
1:06:31he want you for, he want you to pray
1:06:33more. He will plant that desire too. So
1:06:36I met people who are sick and who ask me
1:06:38pray for me that I die soon. I never
1:06:41thought I will meet people like that.
1:06:42One man recently a few years ago. He
1:06:45called me in his room. His wife have
1:06:48died and his children were in the living
1:06:50room or married. You know I was speaking
1:06:52that area. He said so I just wanted to
1:06:55ask you pray for me that I die soon. I'm
1:06:58like are you depressed? Are you sad? No,
1:07:01I did everything. I pray my daily
1:07:03rosary. I go to mass every day. I'm good
1:07:05with the church. I just miss my wife and
1:07:08I just want to see our lady. I'm like,
1:07:10I'm don't think I'm going to pray for
1:07:11that. And then he said, if things go
1:07:14well, I have asked her to take me next
1:07:16week. I'm not a part of this. So anyway,
1:07:20not everybody's praying for the same
1:07:22thing, you know. And that when the devil
1:07:25tells you like, oh, you are selfish for
1:07:26praying for that job. you see how many
1:07:28people who want it no wish them good but
1:07:31if there in your heart pray for it
1:07:34>> so one of the thing people again I have
1:07:36seen people who don't want to get
1:07:38pregnant and who are married and I've
1:07:40seen people dying suffering so badly
1:07:44pray that God gives you that kid so one
1:07:46of the thing our lady promised in Ko
1:07:48through the seven sorrows she said I
1:07:50will hear the tears of mothers
1:07:54>> for their children for the prayers
1:07:55concerning their
1:07:57I will heal the tears of parents for
1:07:59their children. For whatever pain
1:08:01they're going through, I will hear them
1:08:04more than any through any other prayer.
1:08:06So again, this is what I have seen. I
1:08:10have about 150 emails or people who
1:08:13write to me sometimes end up calling
1:08:15their children my name because of course
1:08:17they remember that I may become you know
1:08:20introduced them to that rosary. But
1:08:23that's one prayer our lady never refuse.
1:08:25I truly only one couple told me they
1:08:28were praying for a child and within six
1:08:31months they told me actually they
1:08:33realized they don't need so God changed
1:08:35their hearts too but children oh I have
1:08:39a couple who tried for four years seven
1:08:41years from all over the world and who
1:08:44pray who tried 10 years one girl from um
1:08:47from Rwanda she actually not Catholic so
1:08:50this she's so cute she she's a born
1:08:53again a very good Christian and Then she
1:08:55came to me she said so I've been trying
1:08:58for 10 years and somebody told me that
1:09:00there is some prayer you teach people
1:09:03maybe I just said I I'm going to ask you
1:09:05I will do anything I spend all the money
1:09:08we have now I just want to do naturally
1:09:10in prayer I'm like okay you are born
1:09:12again so it concerns Mary and I know
1:09:15maybe you guys don't like her much which
1:09:18is so sad but it concern her she's like
1:09:20I will do anything and then we pray the
1:09:22whole rosary and then this The word I
1:09:25find so cute. She said, "You know, I've
1:09:27been telling Jesus, my Lord, I've been
1:09:29asking for a child for 10 years. You're
1:09:32not giving it to me. Now I am way to
1:09:34turn to your mother. What do you know
1:09:36about having children anyway?"
1:09:38[laughter]
1:09:39She's literally joking, talking to her
1:09:41like that and within a month she was
1:09:45pregnant. I was so worried she won't get
1:09:48pregnant. I mean, she won't get the
1:09:50gift. Maybe thinking, "Okay, not even
1:09:52traditional rosary. This is seven
1:09:54sorrows to meditate on a pain of a lady.
1:09:57I hope she takes it. She's got to do
1:09:59this every day. It's not magic. It's a
1:10:01prayer that comes from the heart. You're
1:10:03supposed to connect to her, love her
1:10:05through what she went through and her
1:10:07son, of course, what he was going
1:10:08through. Remember what he did for
1:10:10people. So that's what I was trying to
1:10:12direct her. So I met her five years
1:10:15later. Obviously, I was I was not even
1:10:17asking anything. What happened? I hope
1:10:19she's still praying. So 5 years later
1:10:22she broke into this house where I was I
1:10:24was visiting. She's like I have been
1:10:26looking for you for 5 years. I'm like
1:10:28tell me what happened. I remember who
1:10:30you are. She said I have a child of five
1:10:32years.
1:10:33>> So it's so good. It gives me the
1:10:35greatest joy. And obviously we we the
1:10:39gift of God is to reconnect to us to his
1:10:41love to remind us that I'm still here. I
1:10:45mean when our Lord said ask shall be
1:10:46given knock the door will be open. He
1:10:50meant it. He just want us not to give
1:10:52up. We have the parable of the rich man
1:10:55and the poor neighbor who have received
1:10:57the guests at night didn't have bread.
1:11:00And when our Lord said the when the poor
1:11:03neighbor went to knock the door of the
1:11:04rich man to ask for bread to feed his
1:11:06guest, if the rich man doesn't get up
1:11:09out of love, he would wake up out of
1:11:12being annoyed and give it to him. And
1:11:15that is right after that passage he said
1:11:17ask. Don't give up. If I'm not giving it
1:11:21to you because I think you even deserve,
1:11:24I'm a father. My heart will melt because
1:11:26of your insistence. You're begging.
1:11:29>> So, and also when I say that, I don't
1:11:31want to push people to say, "Oh, don't
1:11:33worry. Just pray for God's will." It's
1:11:36good to pray for God's will when you
1:11:37understand it because God's will is
1:11:40always good for us. But also maybe I
1:11:42have done it in my life where I said
1:11:44God's will be done because I didn't want
1:11:47to want anything so I won't get
1:11:50disappointed. So then I'm like okay
1:11:52we'll just pray you know as I'm praying
1:11:54God's will be done but there's a time
1:11:56when people are trying to kill you at at
1:11:58the door and you just don't want to be
1:12:01chopped by machetes and you are begging
1:12:04God. You're not going to tell that
1:12:06person or just pray for God's will to be
1:12:08done. And again, I know people doing the
1:12:10genocide, including my brother who wrote
1:12:13me a letter. He put I put in left to
1:12:15tell the night before they killed him
1:12:18and said, "If they kill me, don't worry.
1:12:20I will go to heaven because I'm
1:12:23prepared." Not once have I tell God,
1:12:26"Okay, it's fine. Take me." Why did he
1:12:29put that desire to live on him knows? So
1:12:32if you have a desire to for your child
1:12:35to believe from that addiction,
1:12:38don't wipe it off like, "Oh, that's
1:12:40him." You know, I tried. I'm tired. Pray
1:12:44for him. You know, when you're praying,
1:12:46you're also invited to love and to a
1:12:49long suffering. You don't know when it
1:12:51will happen, but you keep praying. In
1:12:54meantime, you're opening the heart to
1:12:56Jesus on the cross, to the tears of Mary
1:12:59under the cross. In the meantime, we're
1:13:01loving Jesus more. And then in due time,
1:13:05he's going to give you an answer. And he
1:13:07will not fail to give you a satisfying
1:13:10answer if you keep praying.
1:13:13>> People heal, in the end they die. All
1:13:16God want is to grab our love, our hearts
1:13:18to love him, to fall in love with him.
1:13:21>> And with that comes every gift. But the
1:13:24end result is not the gift, is the
1:13:26giver. is that love that he showed you
1:13:28that
1:13:29>> wow he loves me. He's there.
1:13:31>> Yeah. When we come to that recognition
1:13:33that God is real and that God is real
1:13:35and God is really our father that Jesus
1:13:37is really king and lord and friend. Yes.
1:13:41>> Right. You know um and that and that he
1:13:43has given us the Holy Spirit to make us
1:13:45children of God. He has given us the
1:13:48family, the church, right? Mary as a
1:13:51mother. so many wonderful other
1:13:53Christians who have right um who who
1:13:55have who have assisted us in who are
1:13:58alive today.
1:13:59>> Yeah.
1:13:59>> And those who are alive today in heaven,
1:14:01right? And that we we we are not alone.
1:14:03>> Yes.
1:14:03>> Uh so again, thank you so much, Emac,
1:14:06for walking us through just this
1:14:08beautiful vision of just this confident
1:14:11reality, right? that God is good, that
1:14:13God will hear our prayer, that he will
1:14:16bring us home,
1:14:17>> and uh the the journey may not be the
1:14:19one um we we expect.
1:14:22>> It's almost guaranteed not to be the one
1:14:23we expect. It may not be the one we
1:14:25want,
1:14:26>> but it will be the journey in a way that
1:14:29we need to come home to him. And in a
1:14:32way, we will eventually want it. We will
1:14:34eventually say that somehow, right? If
1:14:37this if this pain brought me to
1:14:41face-toface intimate communion with my
1:14:44God and maker and father,
1:14:47>> then in a way I can may I be able to say
1:14:50along with Mary, right? Let it be done
1:14:52to me according to thy word. Yes.
1:14:53>> Uh so I remembered our your f our first
1:14:56episode uh one of our um uh workers
1:14:58helped us uh it was called it was
1:15:00episode 92 uh the power of faith and
1:15:03suffering. Uh so I encourage any uh
1:15:06listeners or viewers to go back and look
1:15:08at that uh Catholic theology show
1:15:10episode 92. Uh and then also this book
1:15:13that you have a blessing in disguise
1:15:15miracles of the seven ro sorrows rosary.
1:15:19>> And you mentioned that people can go to
1:15:20immac.com
1:15:23>> yes
1:15:23>> to find more things.
1:15:25>> Yes. And I do take pilgrimages to kjo.
1:15:28>> That's right. Yeah. Three times a year.
1:15:29About times a year. It's not easy. But I
1:15:32always remember a lady telling us, "My
1:15:34children help me. Bring my children
1:15:36here." I'm like, "You know what? I've
1:15:38seen how life is short. Even if I take
1:15:41five people, I take them."
1:15:43>> Beautiful.
1:15:43>> As long as you feel you have done her
1:15:45will, you have put a smile on her face.
1:15:48>> What more?
1:15:49>> Yeah,
1:15:50>> that's beautiful. And uh what's that
1:15:52last line? Um Mary um what was the
1:15:56prayer from the
1:15:58um the prayer from uh the rosary?
1:16:01>> Oh most merciful mother remind us always
1:16:05about the sorrows of your son Jesus.
1:16:07Thank you for for thinking of that
1:16:10because I love it and sometimes it's
1:16:12like glory be we can go quickly yeah
1:16:15>> without thinking about it
1:16:17>> but that reminder helps me to accept
1:16:20every suffering. Yeah, that reminder
1:16:23>> of his sorrows reminds me how I'm loved
1:16:26and I'm a child of God and so is
1:16:29everybody and help me to love people.
1:16:32>> Amen. Amen. Most merciful mother, remind
1:16:34us always about the sorrows of your son,
1:16:37Jesus.
1:16:37>> Amen.
1:16:38>> So, thank you so much for being on the
1:16:40show today.
1:16:41>> Thank you. We made it happen.
1:16:43>> That's right. Yes. And and happy uh I
1:16:45know this will be released later, but
1:16:46happy feast of
1:16:48>> uh the immaculate conception.
1:16:50What? And and happy feast day to you.
1:16:52>> Oh yeah. Thank you. One time I remember
1:16:55we were looking for a house as a family.
1:16:56We couldn't find a home. We would liked
1:16:59and I am no kidding. I woke up in the
1:17:01morning. It was December 8. And I told
1:17:03our lady, "It's our day is your feast. I
1:17:07really need a house for the family." All
1:17:10of a sudden we saw a house came up on
1:17:11the market was exactly everything we
1:17:14wanted. The price range. I'm like, "Oh."
1:17:17Because somebody dropped it off
1:17:19something. and then go through. So,
1:17:21she's good.
1:17:22>> That's good.
1:17:22>> She helps. Yeah.
1:17:24>> Amen. Amen. Thank you so much for being
1:17:26on the show today.
1:17:27>> Yeah. Truly.
1:17:28>> Thank you so much for watching. If you
1:17:30enjoyed today's episode, please hit the
1:17:32like button and subscribe to the
1:17:34Catholic Theology Show. Thanks and God
1:17:37bless.

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