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How to Negotiate Your Job Offer - Prof. Deepak Malhotra (Harvard Business School) — Transcript

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0:08Deepak Malhotra is a professor in the
0:10negotiations, organizations, and markets
0:12unit at the Harvard Business School. He
0:15teaches negotiation in the MBA program
0:17and in a wide variety of executive
0:18programs including the owner president
0:20management program, changing the game,
0:22and families in business. Deepak has won
0:25numerous awards for his teaching
0:27including the HBS faculty award by
0:29Harvard Business School's MBA class of
0:312011 and the Charles M. Williams award
0:33from the Harvard Business School.
0:35In both 2011 and 2012, the MBA students
0:39selected Deepak to give the best of EC
0:41year speech to graduating students. So,
0:43without further ado, Professor Malhotra.
0:45THANK YOU.
0:49GOOD AFTERNOON. HOW ARE WE DOING? GOOD.
0:52ALL RIGHT. A COUPLE of quick points
0:54before we jump into the topic. I'm
0:56wearing a mic and the reason is the
0:58session apparently is going to be
0:59videotaped. And I'm not sure yet whether
1:02it will actually show up anywhere, but
1:04the few things that I do know is that
1:06the folks that are videotaping are under
1:09strict orders not to videotape any of
1:11you.
1:12And the reason I mention that is because
1:14a lot of what we're going to do is going
1:16to be some Q&A. And at that point,
1:18whatever question you have, you should
1:19feel comfortable asking. And I will try
1:21to address literally any question you
1:23may have. The only thing I'll ask on the
1:25questions is to the extent possible,
1:28make it a generalizable question.
1:30Make it a question that may be relevant
1:32to people that are you know greater than
1:35one in this room.
1:36And so, whether you're even if your
1:38question comes from a specific area, if
1:40you can put it in a way that's a little
1:41bit more useful to everybody, that would
1:42be great. I'm going to do this in a
1:44slightly different way than I've done in
1:45the past. I've held a session like this
1:48occasionally on my own, occasionally
1:49with a colleague of mine, Max Bazerman,
1:51for the last few years. And we typically
1:53launch into Q&A about 5 minutes into the
1:56session. This time I decided to do it a
1:58little bit differently. I'm going to
1:59start out with about 15 pieces of advice
2:03that are preset based on the kinds of
2:06questions I've heard often in sessions
2:08like this, in one-on-one conversations
2:10with my students or other folks, the
2:12kinds of things that you may run into.
2:14And so, as we go through those 15, my my
2:16guess is that some of those are going to
2:17be obvious to you or intuitive to you.
2:20Some of those may not be relevant to
2:21you, but my guess is also that there may
2:23be one or two things in that list of 15
2:26that everyone looks at and says, "Oh,
2:28you know, that's kind of interesting. I
2:29hadn't quite thought about that." Or
2:30that's actually quite relevant to what
2:31I'm doing. And the one thing that's most
2:33relevant to you may be different from
2:34the one thing that's most relevant to
2:35you, but I'll go through all of these
2:37because in the past they've been
2:38relevant to at least some people in each
2:40room. So, we'll do that and then we'll
2:41go into Q&A.
2:44The only other thing I'll say is a lot
2:46of the action that happens in the job
2:48market season
2:51isn't necessarily at the table. It's not
2:53when you're sitting across the table
2:55from the person you're negotiating with.
2:56It's a lot of the stuff that happens
2:58before or after. And some of the points
3:00I'm going to touch on are going to are
3:02going to hit those, but there may be
3:03additional questions that are relevant
3:05to you in that domain. If you're
3:08standing uncomfortably, feel free to
3:09just filter into the sides. There's more
3:11sort of sitting area at least on the
3:12steps.
3:14If you're comfortable standing, that's
3:15great. If not, then please move around.
3:17There's a couple seats in the middle
3:18here as well if somebody wants to to
3:19sneak in.
3:20All right. So, I'm going to go through a
3:22few things that I think may be relevant
3:24to you. Feel free to take whatever
3:25notes. Feel free to ask questions during
3:27if something is unclear. I'll try to go
3:29through this relatively quick. So, 15
3:31pieces of advice.
3:33The first thing I'm going to tell you is
3:36here's the equation for getting what you
3:37want.
3:38This is you know, just cutting to the
3:40chase. You want to get more. You want
3:42more money, a better offer, a better
3:44deal. Here are the components of what
3:46you need to do.
3:48First, uh
3:50they need to like you.
3:51All right. So, that's the first
3:53component. So, the things that you do
3:55that make them like you less make it
3:57less likely that you're going to get
3:58what you want. All right.
4:00That's not enough.
4:02They have to believe that you deserve
4:04it. It's not enough that you believe you
4:06deserve it. It has to be believable,
4:09justifiable to them. Another version of
4:11this is don't ever ask for something
4:14without giving the explanation for why
4:16you think you deserve it, why it's
4:18justifiable, why it's a legitimate thing
4:20to ask for. I'm going to pause here
4:22because even these two elements of the
4:25equation
4:26often end up conflicting with each
4:28other. Occasionally, people will tell
4:29me, "Here's what I'm planning to tell
4:31them."
4:33And a lot of what they're doing is
4:34element two.
4:36Explaining why they're so good,
4:38explaining how many other people are
4:39interested in them, explaining why
4:40they're the best MBA student and how
4:42although you've never hired an HBS MBA
4:44student before, I'm really going to
4:45bring a lot of value. But the way you're
4:47going about targeting number two is
4:49making them like you less. All right.
4:51So, you need to make sure you're
4:52balancing these two. They need to want
4:54to do it for you
4:55because they like you and they need to
4:57be able to want to do it for you because
4:59it makes sense to do it for you. All
5:01right.
5:02Next.
5:03They need to be able to justify and act
5:05on it internally.
5:07They may like you. They may think you
5:08deserve it, but if they have constraints
5:11that you haven't fully acknowledged or
5:13understood, you're still not going to
5:14get what you want. And different
5:16organizations, different people have
5:17different constraints. So, you want to
5:19spend a lot of time figuring out where
5:20they're flexible, where they're not
5:21flexible.
5:23Some of you will run into this when
5:24you're going towards a non-traditional
5:26job versus a more traditional job for
5:28HBS graduates.
5:29On the one hand, many non-traditional
5:31jobs
5:33are likely to offer lower salaries. If
5:35they haven't hired a HBS MBA or any MBA
5:38before
5:39and they're not used to these levels, on
5:41the one hand, they may start out
5:42offering less and may end up offering
5:44less. On the other hand, they may have
5:46much more flexibility on structuring a
5:48more creative deal, a more interesting
5:49deal, a more valuable deal for you than
5:51the standard folks that hire at HBS. So,
5:54understand where they can give. All
5:56right. And how they're going to justify
5:58it internally. The person at the table
6:00needs to like you and think you deserve
6:01it. They need to be able to go back and
6:03be able to sell it internally. If
6:05they're hiring 20 other people from your
6:07school or from similar schools, they
6:09maybe can't just give one of you a
6:11certain kind of a sweetheart deal, no
6:12matter how much they like you. All
6:14right.
6:15Next.
6:16You need to be to the extent possible
6:18flexible on which currency they pay you
6:21in.
6:21You shouldn't care about salary. You
6:24shouldn't care about
6:26you know, your bonus. You shouldn't care
6:27about your options. You shouldn't care
6:29about which city you're in. You
6:30shouldn't care about any one of those
6:32things. What you should care about is
6:34the value of the entire deal to you.
6:36And the more ways in which you give them
6:38to pay you, the more likely it is that
6:40you'll get paid.
6:42So, it's sort of
6:44as a corollary to the the point before
6:46it which is you know, they they may have
6:47constraints in some areas and not in
6:48others. They may be able to justify
6:50certain kind of movements but not
6:51others. They may have strong precedent
6:53concerns in some areas but not others.
6:56Understand those and give them the
6:58flexibility in rewarding you in many
6:59different ways including maybe not
7:01rewarding you today but rewarding you
7:03later on. Maybe you can set up a process
7:05by which you're not getting anything
7:06special today, but you're going to get
7:08something as you go forward. So, think a
7:10little bit more holistically in that
7:11way. And you add all of those up and you
7:13get a smiley face. I know it's kind of
7:14small, but you know, most of the things
7:17you're going to negotiate will be small
7:18relative to the bigger things in life.
7:20So,
7:21but you get your smiley face.
7:23As I was walking over here, I did think
7:25what there is one other thing which
7:27sometimes maybe doesn't fully fit into
7:29this equation but is important to keep
7:30in mind.
7:32And maybe this will come up at another
7:33point as well.
7:35They also need to believe that they can
7:37get you.
7:39All right. Nobody's going to go fight
7:41for you, go to bat for you, expend
7:43political or social capital internally
7:45for you if they think at the end of the
7:47day they're going to go all out for you
7:48and going to say, "Thanks, but no
7:49thanks."
7:50Nobody wants to be the stalking horse
7:52for the other job that you really really
7:54want. And that's understandable. You're
7:56going to be asking people to go out of
7:58their way if you're asking them to
7:59change what they originally gave you.
8:01So, you need to be able to deal with
8:03that concern as well. Again, these
8:05things sometimes
8:07are in tension with one another. There's
8:08a little bit of a contradiction here.
8:10They maybe the way you get them to like
8:12you most
8:13maybe the way you get them to really
8:14want you is by explaining to them that
8:16everybody wants you. But the more
8:17strongly you play that hand, the more
8:19they may think, "Well, they're not going
8:20to get him anyway. We're not going to
8:21get her anyway. She's too in demand."
8:23So, you have there's going to be some
8:24judgment at the end of the day. There's
8:25going to be some tension. It's not very
8:26easy to just add them all up. But these
8:28are the things you want to be doing. All
8:30right. So, that's that's the first big
8:31point.
8:33Number two. Don't negotiate just to
8:35negotiate.
8:36This is especially important if you are
8:38taking a negotiations class while at
8:40Harvard Business School.
8:42You take a class on negotiation, feel
8:43like, "Well, I took the class. I need to
8:45to justify having taking it. So, I need
8:48to go out and and show something for
8:49it." It's not the way to go about it.
8:51There's many more important areas in
8:53your life where what you learn in a
8:55negotiation class or at a business
8:56school are more usefully applied than in
8:58your first job with your first boss just
9:01trying to prove that you can get
9:03something. All right. So, if something
9:04is important to you, absolutely. If you
9:07truly think you deserve something more
9:09or something different, absolutely.
9:11Think about the interests that are
9:13really important to you, but don't
9:15haggle or negotiate over every little
9:17thing.
9:18You don't want to you know, fight fight
9:21fight in order to get a little bit more
9:24in order to feel like, "All right. I got
9:25something." And then have a lot of
9:27negative consequences down the line. All
9:29right. So, don't negotiate just to
9:30negotiate. But if it's important, if it
9:32seems relevant, if it's justifiable, by
9:34all means. Okay.
9:36Uh
9:38This is perhaps the most important
9:39thing.
9:40Well, it's probably the second, third
9:42most important thing I'm going to say in
9:43these 15. But it's it's the most
9:44important thing
9:46for negotiations as you start out.
9:48People often have the sense that
9:49negotiation is about walking into the
9:51room, walking up to the negotiation
9:53table, and convincing the other party
9:55about X, Y, or Z. About influencing
9:57them, about persuading them, about
9:58getting them to move in the direction
10:00you want them to move, that plays a
10:01part. But nothing is fundamentally more
10:04important than understanding the person
10:06on the other side of the table from you.
10:08Who are they? What do they like? What
10:09are their interests? What are their
10:10constraints? Learn as much as you can,
10:12not just at the table, before you get
10:14there and after you leave. You shouldn't
10:16be negotiating with a company or even
10:18interviewing with a company without
10:20exhausting all sources of information
10:22that you can before even walking in.
10:25Talking to folks in the career and
10:26professional development department,
10:28talking to friends who have either
10:30interviewed there or have worked there
10:31or are planning on working there,
10:33talking to folks that are in that
10:34organization who you may be able to have
10:36access to. Learn as much as you can, not
10:38just in order to have a good interview.
10:41All right, so I can say the right words,
10:42I can hit all the the key things, I I
10:44know their culture, but to to fully
10:46understand what they're looking for you
10:48in terms of the value you'll bring to
10:50the table, in order to understand where
10:52they may or may not be flexible, in
10:54order to understand why they're
10:55interested in you specifically, the more
10:56you get the better you're going to be as
10:58you start negotiating down the line.
11:01Okay, next. Uh negotiate multiple issues
11:04or interests simultaneously. Um
11:07here's what that means.
11:09You get an offer and there's two or
11:11three or four or five things you don't
11:12like about it.
11:14So you decide to let them know that you
11:15want a different offer.
11:18What's not a good idea is to send an
11:19email that says, you know, the salary is
11:21kind of low, could you do something
11:22about it? And then they work at it and
11:24they come back to you and then you say,
11:25okay, and there's these two other things
11:27that I'd like you to work on.
11:29And then they do those and then you come
11:30back, okay, just one more thing.
11:32All right?
11:33Uh you can imagine why that's really
11:35annoying. All right? It's also not very
11:37productive.
11:38Again, they're going to go to bat for
11:40you. If you ask them to do A, B, C, D,
11:42and E, what's often implied is if I do
11:45A, B, C, D, and E, we can get you. If
11:47all you do is send them a request for a
11:49salary or a change in city and that's
11:50the only thing you mention,
11:52and they start working hard towards it,
11:54they're not going to be particularly in
11:56a giving mood when you go to the next
11:57stage.
11:59The other reason to do this or the other
12:00way to do this, when you mention the
12:02two, three, or four, or five things that
12:03you think need addressing, and hopefully
12:05it's not as many as five or six things,
12:07but the few things that you need, it's
12:09also important to signal to them what is
12:11most important and what is less
12:12important.
12:14And the reason is this, if you talk
12:16about salary and start date and and you
12:18know, your bonus and and your stock
12:20options or your the city you're going to
12:22be in,
12:23and you mention four or five things,
12:26you don't tell them what's most
12:27important, they may pick two things that
12:29are pretty easy to give you.
12:30And they give those to you.
12:32And now they feel that they've met you
12:34halfway and you feel like they gave you
12:35something not very important. So if
12:37there's one or two really important
12:38pieces of
12:40of interest for you,
12:41you want to signal that to them. You
12:42know, these are really important.
12:44I'm a little bit more flexible here, but
12:46if you can do something that's great,
12:47but I really was hoping we'd get some
12:48movement on these. All right? Now again,
12:50you want to do it in the appropriate
12:51way, you don't want to barrage people
12:54with you know, a list of demands. So you
12:56want to limit the demands anyway,
12:57perhaps, but when you're doing it, don't
12:59just go into the and one more thing and
13:01one more thing and one more thing. If
13:02you have legitimate concerns or
13:04interests, present them
13:06together.
13:09There are occasions where these rules
13:11are not appropriate, so there's again
13:12some judgment, but this is in general
13:14how you want to be thinking about it. So
13:15I'll always leave a little bit of an
13:16exit there.
13:19Remember that what is not negotiable
13:21today may be negotiable tomorrow.
13:23This comes in a few different forms. One
13:25I alluded to earlier.
13:27Maybe there's not much movement today
13:29because they're hiring 20 people just
13:30like you
13:32and it's hard for them to differentiate
13:34the 20 of you. Every one of you thinks
13:35you're better than the other 19.
13:37Uh and in their experience, it's hard to
13:39tell which one's better. All right? And
13:41they definitely don't want to play play
13:43the game of annoying some people in
13:44order to make some people happy.
13:46But it may be possible to negotiate
13:47those same issues six months down the
13:50line or a year down the line once a
13:51number of things have changed. Maybe
13:53you've had the opportunity to convince
13:54them that you are different, better,
13:56more unique.
13:58Or maybe simply they're in a different
14:00phase in the employment, so they just
14:01happen to have more flexibility. They
14:03can do a lot more things once you're one
14:04of them than they can do when you're
14:06just shopping around.
14:07So that's one version of what may not be
14:09negotiable today may be negotiable
14:11tomorrow. There's another version of it.
14:13What may not be negotiable
14:16on day one during the job interview
14:18process may be negotiable on day 30.
14:21For example, they make you an offer
14:23and they have a deadline. We need to
14:25know by November 15th or November 20th
14:27or December 4th.
14:29And you ask them, is there any way I can
14:30get more time?
14:32The answer may be no. It may be yes. The
14:34answer may be no.
14:36Okay, well that doesn't mean that it's
14:38no forever.
14:39When somebody says no in a negotiation,
14:41what they're saying is no
14:44today.
14:46No in parentheses, the way I see the
14:48world today.
14:51But that same person, as you get closer
14:53to November 15th or November 20th or
14:55December 5th, may suddenly have the
14:57ability to do things they didn't have
14:58the ability to do before. So you want to
15:01maybe continue that conversation, not in
15:03the annoying way of calling them up
15:05every day and saying, how about now?
15:08What about now? I know you said
15:09yesterday, but it's a new day.
15:11You know, hope springs eternal. Not one
15:13of those. But if they've mentioned to
15:15you, listen, you know, we we can't
15:17change the deadline, you know, we need a
15:19certain number of hit rate by November
15:2115th. We may need to make sure that our
15:23numbers are looking pretty good. We
15:24can't just allow people to have a few
15:26more months, otherwise we can't go to
15:27our second list of folks. Well, maybe by
15:29November 10th or 12th, they've already
15:32met their numbers. Maybe they have some
15:33more flexibility. Maybe other things
15:34have changed. So what may not be
15:36negotiable today may be negotiable
15:38tomorrow. And in a reasonable,
15:40understanding way, you can broach
15:43conversations again.
15:45You're only going to do that if when
15:46they said no the first time,
15:49you asked them,
15:50and can you help me understand why
15:51that's hard to do?
15:54Now you're in a better position to know,
15:55well, what might change those facts on
15:57the ground?
15:58So that goes back to the learning
15:59mindset, number three.
16:01They say no,
16:02you can say, okay,
16:04but you can also say, okay, I understand
16:05that may be difficult to do, can you
16:07help me understand why that is?
16:09Well, that's interesting. In the past
16:10I've seen that some companies are able
16:11to do it and other companies are not. Uh
16:13can you help me understand under what
16:14situations you can and can't? Have you
16:16ever made that kind of a change?
16:19All right? Has there been any experience
16:21in the last few years or this year where
16:23you have managed to allow people to to
16:25agree later? So explore, understand,
16:27figure out exactly what's going on on
16:29their end.
16:31Uh this leads into the next point, which
16:32is stay at the table.
16:34It's just a mentality. Stay at the
16:36table.
16:37Don't negotiate and then you're out of
16:39there and then there's no communication.
16:41Stay at the table. Stay in touch. You
16:44never know when you're going to learn
16:45more. You never know when they can give
16:46you more information. You never know
16:48when their constraints change, when
16:49their interests change. Stay involved.
16:51All right?
16:52Don't just check the box. Got that
16:54offer. All right, now let's move on to
16:56that next one. All right? Stay at the
16:58table, stay engaged, get more
16:59information. Often what they couldn't
17:01share with you before they gave you the
17:02offer, they may be able to share after
17:04they gave you the offer.
17:05What they couldn't share after they gave
17:06you the offer, they may be able to share
17:08with you once you've accepted the offer.
17:09Maybe what they can't share with you
17:11after you accepted the offer, they can
17:12share with you once you've been working
17:13with them six months or a year.
17:15So stay at the table. Don't just
17:16negotiate when it's time to negotiate
17:18because, hey, we need to reach a deal on
17:20something. Stay at the table with them.
17:22Learn as much as you can.
17:27As important as it is to come up with a
17:29good list of questions that you can ask
17:32them and learn as much as you can about
17:34where they're coming from, there's going
17:35to be times when the other side uh
17:38throw something at you that you were
17:39kind of hoping wouldn't be brought up.
17:42All right? And the only real solution is
17:45to be prepared for those tough
17:46questions. And it is
17:48frankly quite surprising how often
17:50people walk into negotiations hoping
17:52they don't bring that up rather than
17:54spending a good amount of time thinking
17:55about when they bring that up, what's
17:57the best way to respond? All right?
18:00This could be them asking you, do you
18:02have any other
18:04job offers? Or the company you worked
18:06with over the summer, did they make you
18:07an offer?
18:08And if the answer is no, you're kind of
18:11hoping they don't ask.
18:13But that's not good enough. Well, what
18:14are you going to say? And if you're
18:15unprepared, the most likely thing that's
18:17going to happen is you're going to come
18:18up with something that either sounds
18:19like a lie or is a lie or is too
18:23defensive or it looks like you're just
18:25trying to avoid the question. All of
18:27those are bad.
18:29In most cases, if the question is, you
18:31know, do you have any other job offers
18:32and the answer is no,
18:34a confident no is not a problem. You're
18:36not the first candidate they've ever
18:38worked with.
18:39Their only reason to hire you is not
18:41that somebody else is making you an
18:42offer, though I know there's some
18:43industries where that plays a much
18:45bigger role than others. Prepare in
18:47advance to answer the toughest question.
18:48Yes, go in with a game plan. All right?
18:50Here's what I need to learn from them,
18:51here's what I need to ask, here's what
18:53I'm going to ask them to improve. Here
18:54All of those things are great, but think
18:56about if you're them. What are the
18:58things they could ask that would put you
18:59in a slightly more defensive position?
19:02And you know, brainstorm with your
19:03friends. Talk to other folks, say, you
19:05know, how how should I respond to this
19:06in a way that I can do truthfully and
19:08convey the information they need and yet
19:10not look like I'm a bad candidate. All
19:12right? Uh there's a a quotation. I I
19:15shared this with my students early on in
19:17the course.
19:19I'll mention it here.
19:20Uh the story as I hear it go goes as
19:22follows. Uh
19:24How many of you know who Mike Tyson is?
19:27Mike Tyson, okay, everybody seems to
19:28know, okay. Uh Mike Tyson is a boxer,
19:31was a boxer.
19:32A rather aggressive boxer, had a lot of
19:34problems. Um not particularly the nicest
19:37guy you're ever going to run into in the
19:38ring or outside of the ring, perhaps. Uh
19:40but he was very successful.
19:42And at some point he was asked, uh the
19:44story goes,
19:46um you know, how do you manage to
19:47continue to be successful
19:49when you have to know that everybody who
19:51walks into the ring to fight you has
19:53prepared specifically to fight you.
19:56You know, they've watched your videos,
19:57they've read up on you, they've looked
19:59at every little piece
20:01of every little fight that you've had.
20:03They're coming in specifically with a
20:05game plan designed to deal with you.
20:08So, how do how do you deal with that?
20:09How do you deal with that?
20:11And Mike Tyson allegedly said, "Well,
20:14everybody has a plan
20:16until they get punched in the face."
20:20And then, the plan unravels.
20:22And
20:24that is generally true in negotiations.
20:27And it's true
20:28in job negotiations. You have a script,
20:30you have these great ideas, you already
20:32know you deserve it. Now, you've even
20:34come up with the language to, you know,
20:36tell them why you deserve it. You're a
20:38likable person, you have a list of
20:39questions, you have all these
20:41alternatives that you're going to throw
20:42out and sprinkle at the right time. You
20:44got it. And then they come up and and
20:45come at you with an angle that you were
20:47either hoping they wouldn't say or you
20:48hadn't expected. So, think about what
20:50they might be interested in finding out
20:51from you and how you might deal with
20:53those things, all right?
20:54Okay. Uh
20:59When they ask you questions that you
21:01wish they hadn't asked. Questions like,
21:03"Well, if we make you an offer tomorrow,
21:05will you say yes?"
21:07And you don't like that question because
21:09you would like to not have committed to
21:11an offer before you've seen it, much
21:13less negotiated with other people or to
21:14get other jobs.
21:16Don't get stuck on what they're asking
21:18you. Try and figure out why they're
21:20asking you that.
21:21Is it because they want to make sure
21:23that you can't negotiate and they're
21:24going to put you in a corner and get you
21:26to say yes and then, once they make the
21:28offer, you're stuck? Usually, that's not
21:29it.
21:31Why are they wanting to know?
21:33What's going on on their side? Did they
21:35just say it that way because they're not
21:37very good communicators and they're just
21:38kind of interested in finding out, are
21:40you excited about this job? Maybe that's
21:42all they want to know.
21:43Maybe they actually have some deadline
21:44by which they need to have a yes or no.
21:47Well, that's that's different.
21:49Maybe this person really doesn't buy
21:52that you're interested in them.
21:53All right? So, where is it coming from?
21:56They ask you a tough question or even
21:57not a tough question. Before you launch
21:59into an answer that targets what they
22:01asked, figure out what world you're in.
22:03What is their intent? Where are they
22:05going with this?
22:07Maybe the answer to the question doesn't
22:09even give them what they really need.
22:11And at the same time puts you in a in a
22:13difficult position. Step back. Can you
22:15help me understand
22:17where you're going with this? Oh, that's
22:18interesting. Well, you know, if if the
22:20question is, you know, how excited am I
22:21about this job? Well, that's easy. Dot
22:22dot dot.
22:24What do you need to know?
22:25You don't have to say yes or no. Uh and
22:27you don't have to say yes or you don't
22:29have to avoid saying yes or no and look
22:31like you're avoiding the question if you
22:32engage in a real general genuine
22:34conversation about what it is that
22:36they're after. So, what they're asking
22:37is important but nowhere near as
22:39important as why they're asking it.
22:40Target the why.
22:44Uh
22:45to the extent possible,
22:47uh
22:47avoid, ignore, downplay
22:50uh ultimatums of any kind.
22:53In both directions.
22:54Uh don't say things that sound like
22:57ultimatums.
22:58Uh
22:59don't say ultimatums. So,
23:01so not just things that sound like don't
23:02don't make ultimatums. Don't make them
23:03feel like you're making ultimatums. Is
23:05that a question?
23:07Oh, sorry.
23:10Uh
23:11you know, yeah, let me finish ultimatums
23:13and we'll go right back to your
23:13question. That's that's a perfectly fine
23:15thing to do.
23:16Uh
23:18People don't like ultimatums.
23:20People don't like being told do this or
23:22else. Sometimes we present things that
23:24sound like ultimatums even though that's
23:26not our real intent. We're just trying
23:28to come from a position of strength and
23:30it comes off the wrong way. But it's
23:32equally true in the other direction. If
23:34somebody says something to you that
23:35sounds like an ultimatum, like we will
23:37never do X.
23:39Or under no circumstances can we move in
23:42that direction. Or that's not possible.
23:45My personal uh
23:48advice, my personal approach in those
23:50situations is if somebody makes an
23:52ultimatum in any negotiation, I just
23:53ignore it.
23:55I pretend it was never said.
23:57And there's a real good reason for this.
24:00All right?
24:01It's possible that at some point they or
24:03someone else
24:05will discover that the position they
24:07took
24:08is going to end up in no deal.
24:10And really they could move if it came
24:12down to it. The last thing I want them
24:15to feel at that point is I made this big
24:17deal about this ultimatum and now I'm
24:19going to lose face
24:21by changing my mind.
24:23All right? It's easy to get people in
24:25negotiations to understand that they've
24:26said something they shouldn't have said.
24:28Or to they ask for something that you
24:30can't possibly give them. They've
24:31overreached. The hard part is getting
24:33them to admit it and change their
24:35behavior.
24:36They'll only admit it and change their
24:37behavior if they can do so without
24:39looking stupid or silly or losing face.
24:43If they make an ultimatum, we'll never
24:45do this, we can't do this, I don't make
24:46them repeat, "I'm sorry, did you say
24:48never? Under no circumstances? Are you
24:51sure?"
24:52No, that's irrelevant. The most I might
24:55say is, "I can see how that might be a
24:56difficult thing for you to do. Now,
24:57let's talk about X, Y, and Z."
25:00Ignore it. Now, if it's a real
25:01ultimatum, if they really cannot do it
25:03under any circumstances, don't worry,
25:05they'll repeat it
25:06over and over again. You don't have to
25:09make it a thing. Let them make it a
25:10thing if it's important. Often, people
25:12will say things in the heat of the
25:13moment, out of frustration, cuz they're
25:15busy, cuz they didn't think it through
25:17in a way that could trap them and you in
25:19the corner. And what you don't want to
25:21do is fuel that fire. Just get out of
25:22the way of those. Just move out of the
25:24way.
25:25Okay, your question, sir. Sorry to speak
25:27out of No, no, that's okay. There's
25:28there are no turns. There's only
25:30the question about trying to discern
25:31intent and answering to that. Yeah. Are
25:33you recommending that we try and keep
25:35that in mind as we passively process the
25:37question or should we actually ask the
25:39question back regarding
25:42the questioner's intent? Well, you know,
25:44uh
25:45obviously, there's no one
25:47right answer to every situation.
25:50That idea, which is actually not so
25:52different from idea number three up
25:53there, which is trying to learn as much
25:55as you can at every moment, uh could
25:56happen before they've asked you the
25:57question. They ask you the question,
25:59you're not exactly sure where they're
26:00going, so you ask for a clarification.
26:03Maybe you start answering it and then
26:04realize, "You know what? I've answered
26:05it, but I'm not exactly sure whether
26:07they liked my answer, didn't like my
26:09answer, got what they needed. They kind
26:10of nodded along. Well, I can ask a
26:12clarification now." At every point, if
26:15there's something you don't understand,
26:16if there's something that's ambiguous,
26:18if something surprises you, your goal
26:20should be to investigate. All right?
26:22That's the learning mindset. That's the
26:23thing you walk in with.
26:25Anytime anybody says anything I didn't
26:27expect
26:28or I think is a little bit strange or
26:29ambiguous, the number one goal is, let
26:31me figure out what game I'm playing.
26:33What world am I in? And I don't mean
26:34game in a sort of, you know, it's a game
26:36of us versus them, but what kind of
26:37situation am I in? All right? The better
26:39I understand the situation I am,
26:41the more wisely I'll deal with that
26:43situation. So, yes, sometimes a
26:44clarification is important. Sometimes it
26:46puts you in a situation where it seems
26:48like
26:49if I don't say yes or no, no matter
26:50what, it's going to sound like I'm
26:51dodging the question.
26:54There's a there's an example. Uh
26:55uh
26:56somebody once wrote a paper on this. I
26:58thought it was kind of a silly thing to
26:59write a whole paper on because it's a
27:00very small point, but it was a really
27:01interesting point. Uh how many of you
27:02watch Star Trek? Any of you watch Star
27:05Trek? Okay. Uh I don't really, but the
27:07story comes from
27:09uh Star Trek: The Next Generation.
27:12And uh who's who's the uh the head guy?
27:14Picard or
27:15All right. Anyway, so apparently, he's
27:17on some alien planet as uh he tends to
27:19be. And uh you know, he's gotten into
27:22some trouble and he's being uh he's
27:24brought in front of this court. And it's
27:26sort of a kangaroo court. They're going
27:27to convict him and they're going to kill
27:28him. All right? That's what it looks
27:29like. Of course, he doesn't die. That's
27:31spoiler alert. Uh
27:33Anyway, they bring him into this
27:34courtroom
27:35and he's prepared to make his his
27:38defense and his argument, but he knows
27:40this is kind of silly.
27:41And at some point, uh the judge says to
27:44him,
27:44"Now, I'm going to ask you a question.
27:47And if the first word that comes out of
27:49your mouth is not yes, I'm going to have
27:52these people shoot you on the spot."
27:55And then, he says, "So, and he the
27:57question is something like, are you
27:59guilty of crimes against, you know,
28:02humanity or something?" You know, just
28:05And he's like, "Well, that's a tough
28:06question to have to say yes to."
28:08And so, he says,
28:10"Yes,
28:11provisionally."
28:13And then he goes on to his long speech
28:16about why it's not really a yes. All
28:18right? So, the point, of course, is that
28:20the yes under these conditions, yes, but
28:23yes, if we assume this, is often a way
28:26to deal with situations where people are
28:28maybe even unfairly
28:30forcing you to take a a big position, a
28:32big stance on something.
28:34Now, that's the whole point. You don't
28:35need to write a whole paper about it, I
28:36think. But it's it's a really nice
28:37point.
28:39Uh okay, what do we have next? Uh okay,
28:42so I've sort of implied this. They're
28:43not out to get you.
28:44It sometimes seems that way,
28:46uh but you have to understand, these
28:48people like you.
28:49And they want to continue liking you.
28:51It's just that you're not the only
28:54concern they have in life.
28:56Uh
28:57which is bad and good. So, the bad part
29:00is, well, you know, they're not doing
29:02everything they possibly could or
29:03they're not being as responsive, they're
29:04not getting back to me in time even
29:06though I have other deadlines. Okay,
29:07that's bad.
29:09The good part is the part that they're
29:11not out to get you.
29:12You know, they probably don't have any
29:14bad intent. They have their own issues
29:15and concerns. And so, you can work with
29:17them in in in most cases. So, if they're
29:20not being responsive, if they're not
29:22being sensitive to your deadlines, if
29:23they're not exactly moving in the
29:25direction you want them to move,
29:27don't assume it's because they don't
29:29want to or they don't like you. It could
29:30be any of those other things.
29:32It could just be that they're busy.
29:34It could be that they're having a a hard
29:36time with their kids at home. You don't
29:37know what it is. But usually, it's not
29:39that they're out to get you.
29:40Uh and especially if you're dealing with
29:42your future boss, uh they're not out to
29:44get you. They may have a personality or
29:46a style you're not used to, which
29:48sometimes looks like they don't care
29:49about you. That may be true. It may be
29:51that they're really busy.
29:53But they like you, they want to keep
29:55you, they're trying to hire you, and
29:56they like you at least as much as you
29:58like them. All right? And the fact is
30:00you're also considering other options,
30:01and so it's kind of normal. So don't
30:02don't don't get too uh bogged down about
30:04that. Um
30:06keep in mind uh whoever you're
30:08negotiating with, companies don't
30:09negotiate, people negotiate.
30:11And every person is different, and part
30:13of that difference comes from the role
30:15that they inhabit in the company.
30:17Negotiating with your future boss is
30:19very different from negotiating with the
30:21HR person.
30:22They require different tactics,
30:24different assumptions.
30:25You can get different information from
30:27them.
30:29At the end of the day, it may not be as
30:31bad for you if the HR person is slightly
30:33annoyed with you. It will be very bad
30:35for you if your future boss is annoyed
30:37with you. All right?
30:39Your future boss may only be hiring you.
30:41The HR person may be responsible for 10
30:42different people.
30:44The HR person may be more concerned
30:45about precedent. Your boss may actually
30:47be willing to go to bat for you if they
30:48can justify it internally. So understand
30:51the person you're negotiating with. What
30:52are their interests? What are their
30:53concerns? Don't walk away thinking this
30:55company doesn't value me because of what
30:58one person is doing or saying.
31:00All right? Think about who in this
31:02company values you and why, and how you
31:04can leverage that value that you're
31:06bringing to the table for those folks in
31:08order to have a good negotiation with
31:09the different parts of the company. All
31:11right? Uh incidentally, this sort of
31:13goes along with Don't let one person in
31:15a company ruin your view of the company.
31:18Uh
31:18of course, if that's the person you're
31:20going to be working with, then you may
31:21choose not to work there. But even
31:22there, you know, don't don't
31:23over-inflate what what one person says
31:25or does.
31:26Okay. Um
31:28don't be in a mad rush to get offers.
31:31Uh this is a a quick point on this.
31:33Uh in the beginning of the job market,
31:35often we're sort of in a rush to try to
31:37get at least one job offer, hopefully
31:38many.
31:39Uh but then we get one, and then we find
31:41out that there's a problem.
31:42Which is we got one very quickly because
31:44we rushed it, and now they want to know
31:46in a week, or they want to know in a
31:47month, or they want to know in 2 months,
31:49and really I was kind of hoping to
31:50stretch this part of my life out a
31:51little bit. Uh so
31:53it's great to interview early, it's you
31:56know, but occasionally you want to slow
31:57down the process. Don't assume the
31:59process should always be sped up.
32:00Sometimes a the better process is a
32:02slower process.
32:03You know, again, there's some judgment
32:04calls, right? You don't want to slow it
32:05down so much that they lose interest, or
32:07they hire someone else, etc. But don't
32:09always be in a rush to get this
32:11negotiation done as quickly as possible.
32:13Think about the portfolio of
32:15negotiations you're doing. Again, that's
32:16a broader point. It's not just in job
32:18negotiations.
32:19You can't You can negotiate each deal
32:22perfectly well, but if you're not
32:24thinking through the portfolio of deals
32:25you're negotiating, you may end up in a
32:27place you don't want to end up. All
32:28right? So you may want to try, for
32:30example, in this case, to have those
32:32offers come in a little bit more close
32:33to each other
32:35uh than simply one in October, one in
32:37December, and one in in February. The
32:39other ones you might want to move
32:41sooner, these you might want to delay,
32:42to the extent possible, not always
32:43possible. All right, just a couple more
32:45to go here. Uh tell the truth.
32:47Uh
32:48I'm not sure how much more I need to say
32:50about this uh
32:51because that's the whole point, but
32:54you know, resist the temptation to tell
32:56even a small lie.
32:58Uh this is where everything everybody's
33:01been trying to hammer into the the
33:04course load
33:05uh not just in your uh
33:07you know, leadership and corporate
33:09accountability or whatever the course is
33:11called uh
33:12you know, or or the ethics discussions
33:13in this class, that This is what it
33:15comes down to.
33:16This is you know, I teach negotiations,
33:18so this is your first negotiation. All
33:20right? This is the first company you're
33:21going to be working with after your MBA.
33:22These are the people you're going to be
33:24working with in the long term. Even if
33:25it was a one-off thing.
33:27Don't get into the habit of just saying
33:30whatever needs to be said to get the
33:31deal done, to make a little bit more
33:33money. In most cases, because they're
33:36not really out to get you, because what
33:38really matters and not what they're
33:39asking you about the intent, because
33:40there's lots more questions you can ask,
33:42because you can do all those things on
33:43the equation, in most cases, you can
33:46tell the truth
33:47smartly,
33:49and have a good discussion, and end up
33:50where you want to get. That's
33:52negotiating.
33:55Yes, there will be occasions where you
33:56have to choose between well, I can tell
33:58the truth, and I'd probably lose a
34:00little bit, or I can lie and get it.
34:03Now is the time to get in the habit of
34:05never doing that.
34:06Don't lie in any negotiation. I know
34:08that it's it's kind of like a stupid
34:09thing to say because you are who you
34:11are, and and and you may not even
34:14have to think about it, and it may sound
34:15kind of preachy, which it is. Uh but
34:18it's important. So so so don't do it. Uh
34:20next.
34:22Shoot for an 11 out of 10. What do I
34:23mean? Uh occasionally uh
34:26in a negotiation class, we'll we'll do a
34:28negotiation, and and afterwards we'll
34:30ask people to rate their negotiation
34:32partner
34:33on a variety of dimensions. So imagine a
34:35dimension like how much you look forward
34:36to working with this person in the
34:37future.
34:39When you're negotiating with your future
34:40boss, or with the company, anybody from
34:42that company,
34:43imagine that they're going to go back
34:45into their office
34:46after having the negotiation with you,
34:48or after reading your email, or
34:49whatever,
34:50and they're going to do two things. One,
34:52they're going to either give you or not
34:53give you what you asked for.
34:55But in addition, they're going to write
34:56down on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do
34:58I look forward to working with this
34:59person?
35:01And you should really be shooting for an
35:0211 at that point.
35:04You don't want a nine.
35:06You certainly don't want an eight, a
35:07seven, a six, a five, or a four, any of
35:09those. You don't want a nine, heck, you
35:11don't even want a 10. You want even that
35:14negotiation to actually make them want
35:16to work with you even more than they did
35:19before you asked them to give you stuff.
35:22That's the goal. To negotiate in a way
35:25openly, honestly,
35:27with empathy, with understanding, with
35:29give and take, with due deference to
35:32their constraints and what they can't be
35:34flexible on, so that when they're done,
35:36even having improved your offer, they
35:38like you more than they did before
35:40because of the way you interacted with
35:42them. That's the goal.
35:44More than before.
35:45Um and finally,
35:47uh
35:52everything I've said is less important
35:54when it comes to job negotiations than
35:55this point.
35:58If you're thinking about how happy
35:59you're going to be in life, how well you
36:01negotiate your job offer
36:03uh is almost, if not completely,
36:06unimportant.
36:08What is important is which job you take,
36:11and what kind of industry you go into,
36:12what kind of career path you decide to
36:14go down.
36:15Those decisions are going to be worth so
36:17much more to your ultimate happiness,
36:19peace of mind, etc., than anything else
36:22you do at the negotiation table. There's
36:24just no denying that. All right? We know
36:26from significant experience, research,
36:29etc., that many of our MBA students are
36:32not particularly happy a few years out.
36:34And many of them continue to not be very
36:36happy many years following that,
36:38especially when it comes to the career
36:40side of things.
36:42And you're never going to have as much
36:43opportunity and time to reflect and and
36:47and options, not just opportunities and
36:49jobs, but options to consider who you
36:51really are, as you do now. Some of you
36:53will. Occasionally, hopefully you can
36:54build that into your life, but this is a
36:56pretty good time to figure out who you
36:58are and what you want to do. If there's
37:00something that you always kind of
37:01thought you might want to try, if
37:02there's a part of you that you haven't
37:03been able to really really manifest in
37:05in in your career so far,
37:07get that part right.
37:09Don't Again, nobody thinks they're
37:11following the crowd, but at the end of
37:13the day, there's a crowd, and everybody
37:14seems to be in it. So uh you know,
37:17you know, think about who you are. You
37:18know, I don't think anybody here thinks
37:19they're the average Harvard Business
37:21School MBA student.
37:23And so don't end up behaving like the
37:26average Harvard MBA student. And so
37:28think about who you are, what you want
37:29to do, and if you can pick that
37:31correctly, and make some tough decisions
37:33there now, you're going to end up in a
37:34pretty good space. Uh the point I'm
37:36making here is simply the first step
37:38matters. What you do now matters because
37:39usually the second step is just a
37:40continuation down the same path. We take
37:43the first step, and then we take the
37:44second step, and we take the third step,
37:45and the more steps we take, the harder
37:47it is to pivot, to turn around, change
37:48course, etc., for a whole host of
37:50reasons that should be obvious. All
37:51right?
37:52Okay, I'm going to stop here. Uh we have
37:55still plenty of time, and what I'll do
37:57is uh I'll take any questions you may
37:59have. Uh hopefully some of this was
38:00useful.
38:02Uh undoubtedly, there's other questions
38:03that each of you have that are perhaps
38:05idiosyncratic, but maybe even uh not so
38:08idiosyncratic that that I can touch on.
38:09So if anybody has any questions, uh what
38:11I'll do is I'll take a couple of
38:12questions, and then I'll just try to hit
38:14all of them as as efficiently as I can.
38:16So if I can just get two or three
38:17questions. Yes, ma'am. Um this is a
38:19really tactical question, but like when
38:20your boss or or HR or whoever says, "How
38:23can we make this offer more attractive?"
38:25Like what are you supposed to say? Are
38:26you supposed to talk numbers, or do you
38:27say like, "Let me get back to you?" Like
38:29how long should the timeline be for that
38:31conversation? So like what do you
38:32actually say in that moment? Okay, let's
38:34get a couple more questions.
38:35Yeah. Yeah, just on the negotiation
38:37side,
38:38how do you
38:39find out information about what is on
38:41the table for negotiation?
38:43Okay. And either as I said, either
38:44before you get the job offer, or when
38:45you're in the job, when you've been
38:46offered it.
38:47All right, so so let's let's do the two
38:48of these together cuz they seem to be
38:50pretty well related. Okay, uh on the
38:52tactical side,
38:53when somebody asks, "How how can we make
38:55this better for you?" Uh
38:57it it could be that they're asking for
38:59at least some answer in the next 15
39:02seconds.
39:03Uh but I don't know of anybody who would
39:05be offended if somebody said, "Uh you
39:07know, I think that's a great question.
39:08Obviously, I've given it some thought,
39:10but I've learned so much more in during
39:11the interview process. Would you be okay
39:13with me coming back to you after I sleep
39:15on it a little bit more?"
39:17I I mean, would you be offended if
39:18somebody said that to you? No, I don't
39:19know anybody who would be offended by
39:20that. So if you don't have a good
39:22answer, and the honest answer is I need
39:24some time, then that's the answer you
39:26should give them. All right? Uh if the
39:28question is, you know,
39:30"Is this good enough, or are there
39:31things that we could improve?" You say,
39:32"Well, you know, I I I appreciate the
39:34offer, it's very nice. There are some
39:35things that I might want to Again, if
39:36you're prepared, you launch into it. If
39:38not, you take your time. All right?
39:40Whether you need a day or a week, again,
39:41what's the honest truth? What do you
39:43need it for? Right? Would it be okay if
39:46I came back to you a week later because
39:47that gives me the opportunity to talk to
39:48some of the other folks that I got to
39:50meet today. So, can we I think I'd be a
39:52better person to answer that question
39:54after that rather than right now. So, I
39:57think those are all perfectly
39:58appropriate. Don't feel compelled to
40:00answer it right away.
40:01Unless, of course, their intent is they
40:03need to write something down. Well, you
40:04know, okay. So, again, now uh
40:07now what do you ask for in some sense?
40:09How do you find that out? Well, again,
40:11uh
40:12in general, if it's a company that hires
40:15tons of people from uh a school like
40:17this, well, you can probably find out
40:18just by talking to other folks.
40:20Uh and you can know that they'll
40:21probably be a little bit less flexible
40:22on certain issues. Um it becomes more
40:24interesting if they may have some
40:26flexibility. And talking to the people
40:29that are at that company, learning about
40:31their culture and what they seem to
40:32value, uh looking at how long people
40:34stay, uh all of those things give you
40:36some information. But, at the end of the
40:38day,
40:39there's nothing wrong with asking the
40:40person you're negotiating with. Listen,
40:43uh there are certain things that uh I
40:45was hoping would be a little bit
40:46different. Uh we discussed this earlier,
40:47you know, this the salary's obviously a
40:49little bit lower than my other offers or
40:50than what I was making before. Uh in
40:52addition, you know, I was kind of hoping
40:53to start here two or three or four
40:55things. Can you give me some idea as to
40:57where you may have greater or less
40:58flexibility? Right? At the end of the
41:00day, I want to work at a company that
41:02not only do I love and for whom I can
41:04create a lot of value, but I want to
41:06create uh the kind of package that works
41:08for both of us. And I know what I need
41:10maybe overall, but I'm flexible on how
41:12we get there. So, can you help me
41:13understand what's easier? Or
41:15you know, maybe they've already signaled
41:16to you for quite a while that they can't
41:18be flexible on X. Fine, explore a little
41:20bit more. Uh when is there flexibility
41:23on that? Has there ever been flexibility
41:24on that? If not, where do you tend to be
41:26more flexible? Or talk to the current
41:28employees there. Did you negotiate your
41:30offer?
41:31Did people take to it okay? Were they
41:32okay with that? Okay, and and what
41:35worked and what didn't work? I think
41:36people are usually okay
41:38uh with that kind of conversation. All
41:40right. Got a couple more. Uh yes, sir.
41:42Yeah, so um the company I interned with,
41:45um so, by the time I I finished the
41:47internship, they told me we like you. Um
41:49if you make up your mind, um we'd be
41:51happy to have you.
41:52Um
41:52but, you know, when is the open offer or
41:55when when is the best time for me to go
41:57back? You don't want to go back when you
41:58have only like one option and let them
42:00know that you have do you not really
42:02have any alternatives? Um that was a
42:04pretty unique situation.
42:06A pretty unique situation. Okay.
42:08Uh let me ask you a couple quick
42:09questions. So,
42:10uh
42:11are there other companies that you think
42:13might give you an offer that you would
42:14like more than these folks or
42:16Okay, so, you're still shopping around
42:17and some of them may beat this. Or are
42:19you shopping around, but this is still
42:20your going to be your best, you think?
42:22Yeah, we want to know. So, so, you're
42:23waiting more than any reason because
42:25there may actually be some that are even
42:26better than this. Uh
42:33Okay,
42:34so, so, one of the things uh that this
42:37gets to is this notion of staying at the
42:38table.
42:39I think you want to stay at the table.
42:41If you are at all concerned about them
42:44having made a verbal offer, but then,
42:46you know,
42:47over time that just sort of dissipates,
42:49they they sort of lose their commitment
42:51to it, they're already fully looking for
42:52other people, you may miss the boat. If
42:54there's any risk of any of that, you
42:56want to make sure you stay at the table
42:57and at least stay engaged. You don't
42:58necessarily have to rush if written
43:00offer, but if every week or every couple
43:02of weeks or every month you're talking
43:04with your boss from the summer and
43:06saying, "Hey, listen, I just wanted to
43:07update you on how things are going. Just
43:09wanted to see how things are going over
43:10there. Can you help me understand what
43:11the process tends to be for you folks
43:13when you have a summer intern?"
43:15Learn what their process tends to be.
43:16When do they need to make hiring
43:17decisions? Don't push them on an offer
43:19if you're not in any rush to get one,
43:21but just make sure there's no chance
43:23that you get tossed from the list simply
43:26because you didn't seem interested. So,
43:27if there's any risk of that, stay at the
43:29table, learn more about their process,
43:31make sure they know you're still
43:32interested, but don't push them for
43:34something in writing unless they say,
43:35"Well, you know what? Actually, I'm kind
43:36of glad you called. We had kind of
43:37started to think that maybe you're not
43:39that interested. We're actually in the
43:40process of giving offers now." Oh, well,
43:42glad I called. What's the process
43:44typically? You make offers and then
43:45what? Oh, would you be flexible in that?
43:47Oh, okay. Uh what do you need from me?
43:49Etcetera, etcetera. So, stay engaged.
43:52Yes, sir. One here and then I'll take
43:53one over there. I graduated here in '94.
43:56I didn't I didn't expect you to talk
43:57here today. Sorry, say again? I
43:58graduated here in '94. You graduated in
44:00'94.
44:01Yes, I didn't expect you to come to your
44:03conference here today. So, I just wanted
44:04to hear you listen.
44:06I've been in the workforce 20 years. I
44:08think your point number
44:13Which one? Uh number don't rush your
44:16offers. Uh-huh. That's that's the best
44:18point. That's the best one? Yes, it's
44:20the easiest to say. Should I put that
44:21number one next time or just
44:23put it in bold maybe or I don't try to
44:25tell you. No, I appreciate that.
44:28Uh
44:28okay, good. Uh more questions like more
44:31questions like that would be welcome. Uh
44:34Yes, ma'am.
44:35Um I'd like to talk on when and sort of
44:37when to know to walk away or when to
44:40know
44:41like when you actually know that like
44:43it's over and when you should sort of
44:45step back or and know to stop versus to
44:47keep Sorry, when is what over? That that
44:49you're not getting the job or they're
44:50not improving the offer?
44:54Uh
44:54well, there are some sure signs. Uh
44:57if they're really annoyed at you, uh you
44:59know, stop. Uh but,
45:02you know, here here's the the general
45:05rule. And then, how you apply it
45:06tactically
45:08differs.
45:09So, my view is this.
45:11You never want a negotiation to end with
45:14a no.
45:15You want it to end in one of two ways.
45:18Either a yes or an explanation as to why
45:21not.
45:22So, when somebody says no to me, that's
45:23okay. Sometimes they can't do anything.
45:25I I get that. Uh this may be out of
45:27bounds. It may not be possible. Too many
45:28constraints. No, they don't
45:30What I want to do is if I get a no, I
45:32want to at least understand why not.
45:35Once I have an explanation for why they
45:36think they can't do it, then I can make
45:38up my mind as to, "Okay, this is
45:39probably not beating uh worth beating my
45:42head over." All right? So, if they're if
45:45I have no idea why not, then maybe the
45:47conversation should continue. But, once
45:48they've explained to me why not and
45:50there doesn't seem to be much that I can
45:51do about it, that's great. So, that's
45:53one S answer.
45:54Make sure you're not just getting no
45:56five times. Make sure you're getting no
45:58once and then four explanations, if
46:00anything. All right? And the second
46:02piece of it is uh often they'll be
46:05signaling to
46:06we really can't do anything. And you'll
46:09push back a little bit more and they'll
46:10say something like, you know, uh you
46:13know, I thought we kind of made it clear
46:14that that's not possible. Okay, well,
46:16take that as a hint. You know, if
46:17they're having to repeat themselves, uh
46:20and it's not because you're asking the
46:21same question over and over again, then
46:23then that's maybe another signal. But,
46:24again,
46:25keep going until you get what you want,
46:27which may not be the case, but at least
46:30you understand why they're not giving it
46:31to you. And then, it's perfectly fine to
46:33say, "Okay, it's not worth doing." All
46:34right.
46:36Sir. Uh what is what are the best ways
46:38of using an offer to negotiate another
46:41offer to negotiate?
46:43Do you kind of just I mean, can you say
46:45that like, "Oh, my other offer is paying
46:46me X, you should also pay X" or what is
46:48what is the best way to do it? Uh
46:50okay. So, um
46:52as a So, it depends. So, if the other
46:54offer is paying you a lot less, uh
46:56that's probably not the right thing to
46:57do. Uh
46:58so,
47:00uh
47:00listen. So, uh
47:03in a world where your other offer is
47:04pretty good
47:06or more. And the other offer And again,
47:08you may not have any other offers, but
47:09the other things that you can bring to
47:10the table.
47:11Um
47:12What you used to make before you started
47:13your MBA is a perfectly fine thing
47:15perfectly fine thing to bring up. What
47:17the average MBA student makes is a
47:19perfectly fine thing to bring up. What
47:20the average person in this job or
47:22industry makes is a perfectly fine thing
47:23to bring up. These are all
47:25types of justifications for what you
47:27want to ask for.
47:29So, yes, one good one is my other offer
47:32is offering X. Whether you have that or
47:35not, what you're probably going to do is
47:36say, "How can I make a compelling case
47:38that I deserve more?" And you just
47:40happen to have picked one of the four or
47:42five or six ways in which you can do it.
47:44And you bring it up depending on whether
47:46it's worth bringing up, whether it helps
47:48make the case, and what's relevant to
47:50the people on the other side. Some
47:52people
47:53are glad you brought that up because
47:54when they go back to their committee and
47:56they have to say, "Hey, we got to give
47:57this guy more because, you know, he's
47:59got offers from X, Y, and Z and at least
48:02two of them are significantly higher
48:04than what we're paying and it's we could
48:05stretch and make it." Great. Other
48:07people don't even care to know about
48:08that.
48:09They're in a different industry. They
48:10say, "I know you're making a lot more
48:11there." You may still bring it up
48:13because
48:14you want to push them up a little bit.
48:15There's no doubt about that, but it
48:17won't necessarily play the same role.
48:19So, what you want to think about is what
48:20are all the justifications I can make
48:23to justify the offer I want to ask for.
48:25So, they're offering me this,
48:27I want this.
48:29What's the story I need to tell them?
48:32Sometimes a part of that is, "Yes, I
48:33have other offers and they're here."
48:35But, just remember, if your other offer
48:37is here,
48:38you may lose them on are we ever going
48:40to get this guy? So, if you're going to
48:41bring up that offer, it better be
48:43followed by, "And of course, I know you
48:45can't match at that level, but I did
48:48want to suggest to you, you know, I am
48:50willing to give up a fair amount of
48:51money to work with the kind of company
48:53that you are and the kind of opportunity
48:55you give to folks at this stage in the
48:56career.
48:58But, to the extent that you can bridge
49:00that gap a bit, it would be pretty
49:01useful for me." All right? So, so, yes,
49:03by all means use it. Don't throw it in
49:05their face too hard. Give it to them as
49:07information.
49:10Is there any specific guidance you would
49:12offer to a student that might be
49:13sponsored or while they're negotiating
49:14table on what they're going to do next
49:16if the company has significant financial
49:18leverage over over them and
49:20their opportunities?
49:22So, what's the question?
49:23Um does does any of this change if
49:25you're you don't really have the ability
49:27to walk away as easily um
49:29if the one who might, you know, have two
49:31or three job offers the ability to talk
49:33them on to the other?
49:34Yeah, you know,
49:36where you come off on the trade-offs
49:38changes depending on your situation.
49:41You've given one version of what makes
49:43it hard to walk away.
49:45All right, some people don't walk away
49:46because they're too risk-averse. Some
49:48people can't walk away because they have
49:49young kids. 5 years from now it may be a
49:51different reason. So yes,
49:53the principles I think are all still
49:55relevant. They don't change, but the
49:57trade-offs you make may change.
49:59If what they've offered you is this
50:01offer plus implicitly $150,000
50:05or $100,000 on on tuition, well, that's
50:08part of the offer they're giving you.
50:10All right? And so
50:12it's going to be a judgment call. Now,
50:13what I think is if you don't fall into
50:15the category of folks who
50:17um
50:18you know,
50:20if you take on that debt, you're going
50:21to be, you know, on the street or or you
50:23or you have young kids to feed or or
50:24anything else, then then number 15 is
50:27still the most relevant piece of advice,
50:29which is
50:31you know, do I want to be stuck here for
50:32the rest of my life or am I willing to
50:34take that hit and do the one thing I
50:36really really wanted to do? So if
50:37anything, I would say you end up having
50:39to pay more attention to that. It
50:40becomes more salient that you're going
50:41to have to give up more than your
50:42friends will.
50:43Uh on the other hand, if they already
50:45paid the tuition, then you're really no
50:47different. Uh the last thing I'll say is
50:49the framing matters.
50:51When they've paid for it and you're
50:52thinking of it as an additional $100,000
50:54hit or more, um
50:57it just seems much worse and dumber to
50:59say no to that money than if you'd paid
51:01your own way
51:02uh through loans.
51:04Uh
51:05And yet it's really the same thing at
51:06the end of the day.
51:07So
51:09yeah, you're all you're you're making uh
51:12you have a job offer. Forget you're
51:13sponsored. You have a job offer and they
51:16threw on, you know, your loan
51:18forgiveness or something. Well, how much
51:20do you value that? It's just one of the
51:21five or six or seven things you value.
51:23Just like you value which city you're
51:24going to be in, just like you value your
51:26salary and your bonus and the job and
51:29the boss and the industry, it's just one
51:31more thing you value. Don't overvalue it
51:33because sometimes people put that in
51:34just a totally different category. Oh,
51:36but sponsorship. Oh, but I'm sorry, I
51:39got my hands tied. I'm not like
51:41everybody else. No, you're just like
51:42everybody else. You just happen to have
51:43identified yet one more interest that
51:45you have.
51:47And now weight it appropriately rather
51:49than everything else and then 50% of the
51:51variance goes to this. No, it's probably
51:53a lot less than that.
51:55All right?
51:56Yes, sir.
51:57What would be the advice on discerning
51:59between constraints on
52:01another party? Uh some of the
52:03constraints that they're putting might
52:04be real, but some of them might be just
52:05posturing and artificial. So what would
52:07be advice for us to how to discern
52:09between those? Yeah, uh lots of judgment
52:11here, but I'll give you just one piece
52:13of advice on this. So I find that
52:17the kind of the way in which you ask a
52:19question has a huge impact on what they
52:21share with you even controlling for how
52:23much they intend to share with you. So
52:24they either want to share a lot or not,
52:26we can't necessarily change that uh in
52:29in a moment, but how we ask can make a
52:30difference. So when somebody says, "No,
52:32we just can't do that." Questions that
52:34sound like one of the following. Uh I'll
52:36give you two examples, I guess. I often
52:38ask people, "Imagine a situation where
52:40you could do that. Imagine a world in
52:42which that was possible.
52:44Describe that world to me.
52:46What would have to be different about
52:47that world in which you'd be able to do
52:48it?" And then people have to
52:51paint that picture for you. And it gives
52:53you a little bit of better idea about
52:54what is causing that constraint. All
52:56right?
52:57Another possibility a a little bit along
52:59the lines of of what we've already
53:01discussed is, "Can you give me an
53:03example of situations where you've done
53:04that?"
53:05Now,
53:07it's easy to make you say, "Ah, I just
53:09can't do that." When people say, "I just
53:10can't do that." in their mind they're
53:13interpreting as I'm telling this person
53:15this would be very hard for me to do.
53:17I'm not really lying to this person. I
53:18just said I just can't do that.
53:21But when you ask them, "Have you ever
53:22done that before in any conditions?" and
53:24they have, they're a little bit more
53:26likely to then have to
53:28quote unquote fess up.
53:30And say, "Well, there have been extreme
53:31cases where we've ended up doing that."
53:33Uh you know, "Can you tell me when that
53:34happened? I know I may not fall into one
53:36of those categories, but it's just kind
53:37of useful to know how how the the
53:39process works." And then sometimes
53:41they're a little bit more open to it,
53:43right? Now, there's other things you can
53:44do. You can talk to other folks. You can
53:46triangulate. You can say, "Well, the HR
53:47person told me this. What do you think?"
53:49You have to be careful that you don't
53:50look like you're going over someone's
53:51head, but you can still try to get
53:53information from different angles and
53:55see if that helps uh as well.
53:57Do you have like um different type of
53:58advice for um
54:00negotiating in like really small company
54:02where it's like
54:03five to 10 people, no HR at all, and
54:07where if if you have like really close
54:08relationship with the person that you're
54:10negotiating with?
54:11Well, you know, in some ways everything
54:14we're saying becomes even more
54:15important, right? So it probably means
54:16that the the range of outcomes is much
54:18higher.
54:20You could end up getting a lot less or a
54:21lot more
54:22uh because there's very little
54:24precedent. Uh they're not concerned
54:26about the other people they're hiring
54:27that year potentially. Uh you have a
54:29relationship, so there's already some
54:31goodwill there. Uh so I would say, you
54:33know, being more honest becomes more
54:35important. Learning more about what they
54:36can and can't do becomes more important.
54:38Making sure they like you becomes more
54:39important. And the range of things you
54:41can get from them is a lot more. Now,
54:43keep in mind I'm saying the range is
54:44bigger. I'm not saying the upper end of
54:46that range is higher than what you can
54:48get with a traditional offer. But if in
54:50a traditional offer the range is this,
54:53in a non-traditional setting the range
54:55may be this.
54:56All right? And so you want to play your
54:58cards
54:59right even more so. And by playing your
55:01cards, I mean
55:03learning as much as you can about where
55:04they're coming from. And
55:07there's one more thing. It's not Here
55:08influence and persuasion does matter.
55:11A person who's never hired a Harvard
55:13Business School MBA or any MBA uh
55:15is maybe even more open to learning from
55:17you what it is that you can bring to the
55:19table.
55:20Maybe they're undervaluing you not
55:21because they don't have as much money,
55:23they're undervaluing you because they
55:24don't know what you can do well.
55:25All right? So if you can make the case,
55:28if you can advise or inform them about
55:30how much other people make in companies
55:32like this or in with uh the kind of
55:35experience you have, they may be more
55:37persuadable. So maybe that range goes
55:38from here to even here. So so that may
55:40be possible as well. So it becomes more
55:43of a two-way conversation, not just
55:45understanding and structuring, but
55:47educating them as well about what's
55:48possible. The last thing you want is to
55:51be underemployed
55:53by the same company that could have
55:54given you full employment.
55:55All right? If they're going to put you
55:57in a role in a position because they
55:58think that's their need, but you can do
55:59even more for them, have that
56:01conversation. That's the best
56:02conversation you can have.
56:04What if we were to increase the scope of
56:06what I can accomplish? Maybe not today,
56:08but over the next 3 years. Could we
56:09structure a deal that if we do this,
56:10this, and this, I'm in this position? So
56:13so all of this I think just becomes more
56:14important because
56:16where you can end up is so varied.
56:18Yes, ma'am.
56:20Um so you mentioned the currencies, the
56:22flexibility of currencies. What are some
56:24creative and often overlooked types of
56:26currencies that MBAs don't bring to the
56:28table or or you know
56:30Everything except salary.
56:33Uh I mean I think people are overly
56:34focused on salary more than they're
56:35underfocused on any one thing. I think
56:37that's definitely a piece of it. Um
56:40But what's the the standard stuff? I
56:41mean
56:43I mean
56:44so
56:46So like I'll I'll maybe I'll add one
56:47thing which I briefly touched on before.
56:49So certainly you can just list all the
56:51things you care about, you know, which
56:52city you're going to be on, what kind of
56:53project you're going to be on,
56:55um
56:55what kind of responsibilities you're
56:56going to have, what your start date is,
56:57you know, if you want to take the summer
56:58off or whatever else you want to do. Uh
57:00people may be able to give you some
57:02money for your uh MBA, you know, the the
57:04loan stuff. Um
57:06but
57:07it's putting yourself in position for
57:09the next negotiation, which is often
57:13a good thing to do and maybe the last
57:14thing that you could ask for is to say,
57:17"I can't do this. I understand you can't
57:18give it to me today, but can we do
57:20something about this in 6 months or a
57:22year?" And people are often more open to
57:24that. Now, uh the easy one is being in a
57:27different office or a city. Sometimes
57:28you can work that conversation in. Fine,
57:30we can't start there today, but can we
57:32do that in X amount of time? Uh but
57:34that's also true about your first
57:35performance review. It's also true about
57:37the kind of bonus you may get. Uh you
57:39know, I know I'm starting halfway
57:40through the year uh and my year-end
57:42bonus is going to be prorated
57:43accordingly, but could we make a case
57:45for getting the full year because {dot}
57:47{dot} {dot} {dot} {dot}. All right? So
57:49there is some of that that you can do. I
57:50think one of the things that we often
57:52forget to do is
57:53uh
57:54negotiating for things that they can
57:55give us in the future. It's often a lot
57:57easier for people to say yes to
57:58something that they don't have to give
58:00you for a year
58:01than to say something a yes to something
58:03they have to give up right now when
58:05they're in the middle of a very
58:06bureaucratic process. Um
58:08the only uh thing to keep in mind is
58:11they may just promise that and say it,
58:14but you need to stay at the table over
58:15that next 6 months to a year to make
58:17sure they don't forget it. To make sure
58:18that they didn't leave the company and
58:20now nobody in the company owes you that.
58:21To make sure there was no
58:22misunderstanding. To make sure that as
58:24the com- company's needs change, they
58:25don't conveniently ignore it. So again,
58:28in a respectful sort of way, you want to
58:30make sure you're at the table and and
58:31and making sure those things happen. So
58:36Let's say in a situation where
58:38we have another offer and the other
58:40company is asking you for what the offer
58:42from the competitor is.
58:44Uh going forward, let's say you have two
58:45options. You can give that offer and
58:48hope that they would match it or beat it
58:50or something like that and come back. Or
58:51we can say,
58:53"No, I'm not going to tell you what your
58:54offer is. I'd rather hear first what you
58:56have to say." Um
58:58and
58:59taking the second option, the HR person
59:01sort of advises you not to take that
59:03route, rather says,
59:05"This is a larger company, you know, the
59:07people who actually can make the
59:08decisions are only able to see the ones
59:09a week.
59:10Uh we would be free to give you a sub
59:12right now. Still, if you don't want to
59:14do it, it's fine, but I would highly
59:16advise you uh you know, Well, when
59:19somebody highly advises you to do
59:20something, you know,
59:22it's probably a good idea, especially in
59:24a in a conversation where they're not
59:26out to get you really. Uh but the the
59:28question was, you know, you have an
59:29offer from company A. Company B wants to
59:32know what company A is offering before
59:34they really structure their offer.
59:36Uh and
59:38uh you know, ideally that doesn't come
59:39up.
59:40Uh but if it does, again, it if A is
59:43pretty good,
59:44you tell and and I mentioned this to you
59:45a little bit where when we were talking
59:46offline, but the way I would think about
59:48it is a couple things. One,
59:50uh
59:51if offer A is also negotiable, you can
59:54signal that when you tell them what it
59:55is. So, I say, "Well, I have
59:58X as my salary from offer A, but as you
1:00:01know, even that's negotiable and we
1:00:03haven't discussed those, so it it's
1:00:04going to be this or higher. So, that
1:00:06gives you some leverage for the future.
1:00:08The other thing is, don't let them walk
1:00:10away thinking all you care about is that
1:00:11one issue, either.
1:00:13At the end of the day, you should have
1:00:14the ability to say,
1:00:16"I know you're offering the same amount
1:00:18as them, but for the following reasons,
1:00:20I could use some more." All right? Now,
1:00:22you have to think about what those
1:00:23reasons are and what it is, but you
1:00:24know, uh or less. You know, they should
1:00:27also be able to know whether you can
1:00:28accept a deal that's different on salary
1:00:30than the other one. So, I would say,
1:00:31"Listen, uh you're asking me to to say
1:00:33something that I feel uncomfortable
1:00:34about, not because I have any problem
1:00:36with the transparency element, uh but
1:00:38because I think if I'm transparent, I'm
1:00:39just one element. You may over weight
1:00:42that in your own discussions."
1:00:43Right? So, you know what they're
1:00:45offering me on salary because and you
1:00:46can compare those, but there's lots of
1:00:48other things about that job that I wish
1:00:50you could understand as well, so that
1:00:51the package of offers you make me is
1:00:53compelling. So, here's the offer. Here's
1:00:56Here's what it is. It's higher than what
1:00:58maybe you are used to, but uh let's have
1:01:00this be a conversation. So, if you're
1:01:02wel- welcome to having this as a
1:01:03conversation rather than a one-off
1:01:05thing, then here's the information you
1:01:06need. Again, if you can avoid having to
1:01:08give up too much information before you
1:01:10get an offer, great. But if they're
1:01:12saying, "Listen,
1:01:13uh everybody knows you have this other
1:01:14offer and they'll know you didn't want
1:01:15to tell us what it is."
1:01:17Bad taste in people's mouths.
1:01:19Number one is the problem. They don't
1:01:20like you.
1:01:21Uh and
1:01:23everything else is almost secondary. And
1:01:24this is before they've given you the
1:01:25offer. So, uh it's one thing to be
1:01:27disliked after they've given you the
1:01:28offer, very bad. Uh much worse to be
1:01:31disliked before they've even chosen to
1:01:33hire you. Um we're we're at 4:30. I'll
1:01:35take just maybe one or two questions
1:01:39Any advice on how to deal with things
1:01:42like uh
1:01:44exit clauses and things like that and
1:01:45then non-competes and things like that.
1:01:46Those are kind of unpleasant things to
1:01:47talk about while you're getting an
1:01:48offer. Any advice on how to navigate
1:01:50stuff like
1:01:51It depends on what you mean by how to
1:01:52navigate that. What when when they're
1:01:54Like
1:01:55like is there a lot of room to negotiate
1:01:56that? Is that how do you I guess any
1:01:58tips on how to negotiate that without
1:02:00them not liking you because you're
1:02:01talking about a pre-nup or divorce
1:02:02before you get married. Because you're
1:02:03talking about a non-compete. So, like is
1:02:05there any way to have that conversation
1:02:07without leaving a sour taste in Uh yeah,
1:02:09I mean, it's it's maybe a little more
1:02:10idiosyncratic to you, but so we can talk
1:02:11about this afterwards, but um
1:02:14in general, uh keep in mind
1:02:17both sides tend to know these are
1:02:19uncomfortable conversations and
1:02:21legitimate conversations. I don't know
1:02:23people who don't at some point, you
1:02:26know, people who are hiring understand
1:02:27that folks don't like to be too tied
1:02:29down because it may not work out. It may
1:02:30just be a bad match, etc. At the same
1:02:32time, if you look like you just want all
1:02:34the flexi- flexibility in the world,
1:02:36you've never signaled real commitment
1:02:38anyway, you might fall into the category
1:02:39of the people that they're most worried
1:02:40about. It's about striking the balance.
1:02:42It's about understanding what exactly
1:02:44their core concerns are. Maybe you can
1:02:45carve out some kind of non-compete
1:02:47that's not a very broad non-compete.
1:02:49Say, "Listen, what's your real concern?"
1:02:51"Well, our real concern is you end up
1:02:52with company X." Okay, what if we carve
1:02:54that out? "Well, our real concern is you
1:02:56get training in the first 6 months,
1:02:58you're gone in the 7th month, and all of
1:03:00our investment is gone." What if we made
1:03:01the non- the the non-compete a little
1:03:03bit shorter than the 4 years you
1:03:05proposed? Understanding where they're
1:03:07coming from, why exactly they want
1:03:08something gives you more options always.
1:03:11Then you can maybe meet halfway or
1:03:13target their core concerns, still show
1:03:15some flexibility, and work on all the
1:03:16other elements that they're worried
1:03:18about. And maybe you can reach some sort
1:03:20of deal. I'm going to be mindful of of
1:03:21where we are in the time, uh and I also
1:03:23have to go home and and and and on the
1:03:25way I'm picking up my kids, so I I
1:03:26definitely don't want to lose that
1:03:27negotiation. Um there's a little I'll
1:03:29stick around for another just maybe uh
1:03:31you know, 5 minutes here if you just
1:03:32want to stop in and and and either say
1:03:34something or ask something really
1:03:35quickly on the way out. Uh
1:03:37good luck with your negotiations, good
1:03:39luck with your career search and your
1:03:41career,
1:03:42uh and uh you know, stay in touch if
1:03:44something really interesting happens. Uh
1:03:46you know, uh and and be happy. All
1:03:48right. Take care.

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