YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → How to Learn Better & Create Your Best Future | Tim Ferriss

How to Learn Better & Create Your Best Future | Tim Ferriss — Transcript

by Andrew Huberman · 38,419 words · 5,508 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00welcome to the huberman Lab podcast
0:02where we discuss science and
0:03science-based tools for everyday
0:05[Music]
0:08life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a
0:10professor of neurobiology and
0:12Opthalmology at Stanford school of
0:14medicine today my guest is Tim Ferris
0:17Tim Ferris is an author a podcaster an
0:20investor and is known for having a near
0:23Supernatural ability to predict the
0:25future which has allowed him to obtain
0:26success in a huge number of different
0:28Endeavors for instance he is a five-time
0:31number one New York Times bestselling
0:33author but perhaps equally or more
0:36important to that he's also
0:38exceptionally good at teaching people
0:39how to write the entire process of
0:41writing and marketing a book his books
0:43the 4-Hour chef and the 4-Hour Body and
0:46the 4-Hour Work Week not only explain
0:48his own exploration of how to optimize
0:50and prioritize his time and learn
0:52particular skills but he teaches you
0:54those skills as well this is really what
0:57sets Tim apart he is an exceptional
0:59learner and an exceptional teacher and
1:02today you learn why that is and in a
1:05characteristic Tim Ferris way he
1:07explains the process in a way that you
1:08can apply it he lists out for instance
1:11the specific questions that you should
1:13ask When approaching any Endeavor in
1:16order to get the information that you
1:17want and to make the process of learning
1:19and getting better at something and
1:21achieving great success in something
1:23that much more likely that ability that
1:25Tim has to identify the specific
1:28questions that one needs to ask and
1:29answer answer and the specific action
1:31steps to take in order to achieve
1:33success is really what I believe sets
1:35Tim apart from everyone else on the
1:37Internet or on the bookshelf that's
1:39giving advice as to how to become good
1:42at something Tim Ferris is also
1:44dedicated to various philanthropic
1:46efforts the most recent of which is the
1:49donation of several millions of his own
1:50dollars to research on psychedelics for
1:53the treatment of otherwise intractable
1:55psychiatric challenges such as major
1:57depression suicidal depression eating
2:00disorders and addiction and he's also
2:02brought together other philanthropists
2:04which has really galvanized the whole
2:05field of psychedelic research for the
2:07treatment of mental health transforming
2:09it from what was recently kind of a
2:12fringe area of science to a main stay
2:14that's actually funded not only by
2:16philanthropy but by the National
2:18Institutes of Health so he's really
2:19transformed this entire scientific field
2:21into one that now is transforming the
2:24laws around psychedelics and is
2:26providing mental health treatment for
2:27people that would otherwise suffer
2:29today's discussion was a particularly
2:31meaningful one because not only is Tim a
2:34Pioneer in the world of podcasting but
2:37it also marked the 9-year anniversary of
2:39his podcast the Tim ferah show now as I
2:42mentioned earlier Tim is known for being
2:44able to see around corners or predict
2:46the future he really does seem to be
2:48about five if not 10 years ahead of
2:50everybody else in thinking about tools
2:53for optimization in particular domains
2:55of life and so we were very fortunate
2:58that during today's discussion he shares
3:00with us his current creative Endeavors
3:01and how he's thinking about and
3:03approaching those and he also breaks
3:05down for us the process of how to think
3:08about and prioritize one's schedule not
3:10just on the order of the day not just on
3:12the order of the week but really
3:14thinking about one's life as a journey
3:16and how to organize and go about that
3:19Journey so today's discussion will
3:21provide with you tremendous insight into
3:24who Tim Ferris is and how that
3:25incredible mind of his Works in order to
3:27do all the amazing things that he's done
3:30and of course he teaches you how to do
3:33it he will tell you the exact questions
3:35that you should ask and that you should
3:37answer and how to step back and think
3:39about those questions and then
3:41prioritize so that you can decide how to
3:43best invest your time I'm sure many of
3:46you are familiar with the Tim ferah show
3:48however if you're not already
3:49subscribing to the Tim ferah show I
3:51highly recommend you do I still go back
3:52and listen to early episodes of the timf
3:54far show and I'm a weekly listener to
3:56the new episodes we provide a link to
3:58the Tim Fair show in the show note
4:00captions also in the show note captions
4:02you'll find links to Tim's many New York
4:04Times best-selling books and a link to
4:07his excellent weekly blog before we
4:09begin I'd like to emphasize that this
4:10podcast is separate from my teaching and
4:12research roles at Stanford it is however
4:14part of my desire and effort to bring
4:16zero cost to Consumer information about
4:17science and science related tools to the
4:19general public in keeping with that
4:21theme I'd like to thank the sponsors of
4:23today's podcast our first sponsor is
4:25Maui Nei venison Maui Nei venison is the
4:28most nutrient-dense and delicious red
4:29meat available I've talked before on
4:31this podcast about the key importance of
4:33striving to get 1 gram of protein per
4:36pound of body weight now when one
4:38strives to do that it's also important
4:40to maximize the quality protein to
4:42calorie ratio in other words you don't
4:44want to consume a lot of extra calories
4:46in order to get your quality protein
4:48Maui venison in having an extremely high
4:51quality protein and nutrient to calorie
4:54ratio allows you to do that very easily
4:56and in addition to that Maui Nei venison
4:58is delicious I particular like their
5:00bone broth which has an unmatched 25
5:02gram of protein per 100 calories I also
5:04love their ground venison and their
5:06venison steaks all of them are
5:08absolutely delicious if you'd like to
5:09try Maui neui venison go to mauii
5:12Venison
5:13docomo and get 20% off your first order
5:16again that's Maui venison docomond to
5:19get 20% off today's episode is also
5:22brought To Us by element element is an
5:24electrolyte drink that has everything
5:25you need that is the electrolytes sodium
5:28magnesium and potassium but nothing you
5:30don't which means no sugar it's critical
5:33that we get electrolytes because every
5:35cell of our body but in particular our
5:37nerve cells our neurons rely on
5:39electrolytes in order to function
5:40properly with element it's very easy to
5:42ingest the correct ratios of
5:44electrolytes they come in these little
5:45packets they're really delicious you mix
5:47them up with anywhere from 8 to 16 to 32
5:49ounces of fluid I like mine pretty
5:52concentrated so I'll drink a 16 o glass
5:55of water with element in it when I first
5:56wake up I'll also consume another one of
5:58those maybe 32 ounces with one packet
6:01when I exercise and maybe another one if
6:03I happen to sweat a lot during exercise
6:05or if I was in the sauna and sweating
6:07lot if it's a very hot day Etc if you'd
6:09like to try element go to drink element
6:11that's lnt.com huberman to claim a free
6:15element sample pack with your purchase
6:16again that's drink element lnt.com
6:19huberman today's episode is also brought
6:21To Us by levels levels is a program that
6:24lets you see how different foods and
6:25activities impact your blood glucose
6:27levels or blood sugar levels as they
6:29sometimes referred to with levels you
6:31can see how the specific foods you eat
6:34when you eat and exercise as well as any
6:36other activities impact your blood
6:38glucose and how those affect things like
6:40your energy level or your quality of
6:42sleep or your level of clarity and focus
6:45for mental work or your physical output
6:47for physical Endeavors I first started
6:49using levels about a year ago as a way
6:51to understand how different foods and
6:53activities impact my blood glucose
6:54levels and it's really impacted my
6:56entire schedule in fact I've shuffled a
6:58number of things around such that now I
7:00have more stable energy throughout the
7:02day yes I eliminated one or two Foods
7:04fortunately they weren't my favorite
7:05foods I've also added some new foods to
7:07my nutrition program that have allowed
7:09my blood sugar levels to remain much
7:11more steady throughout the day and to
7:13achieve better sleep at night levels
7:15even provides a simple score after any
7:17meal you eat so you can see how
7:19different foods affect you and develop a
7:20personalized nutrition program that's
7:22exactly right for you and that's really
7:24what levels is about it's really about
7:25tailoring things to your specific needs
7:28so if you're interested in learning more
7:29about levels and trying a CGM yourself
7:32go to levels. lhuin right now they're
7:34offering an additional two free months
7:36of membership again that's levels.
7:39linkhub and now for my discussion with
7:41Tim Ferris Tim
7:44Ferris I am nothing short of thrilled to
7:48have you here I've been reading your
7:51books reading your blogs listening to
7:54your podcast for a very long time and in
7:57preparing for today I was thinking you
8:00know who does Tim remind me of because I
8:02knew you reminded me of somebody but I
8:04didn't know who and then I realized it
8:06you remind me of the neurobiologist
8:09Ramon kahal you don't look anything like
8:11him he doesn't look anything like you uh
8:15he was a brilliant scientist he won the
8:17Nobel Prize in 1906 for essentially
8:20describing the structure of the nervous
8:22system he was the first along with
8:24another guy to Define synapses like it's
8:27fundamental connection the nervous
8:28system but the reason that you remind me
8:31of kahal is that it's a well-known or
8:35not so secret secret in Neuroscience
8:37that if you want to pick a really
8:40excellent project to work on you simply
8:43go and look at what kahal talked about
8:46or
8:47hypothesized and then you work on that
8:50you know he had this almost um super
8:53natural ability to look at fixed stained
8:57tissue of the nervous system much of it
8:58is incredibly beautiful by the way and
9:02think about how it worked when it was
9:05alive and he's considered the greatest
9:07neurobiologist of all time without
9:09question and it's really this feature of
9:12being able to like see around corners or
9:15into the future that establishes that
9:17link for me it's it's absolute truth
9:20that if you look back to what you were
9:22doing 10 years ago 15 years ago the
9:24kinds of things you were doing the kinds
9:25of questions you were
9:27asking that translates to much of what
9:29people like myself and people in the
9:32fitness space Tech space investor space
9:34mindfulness space psychedelic space all
9:37these different Arenas what they're
9:39doing now so um it's not hyperbole to
9:44say that you are the remon Cal of all
9:47those different spaces and podcasting of
9:50course is one of those so I owe you a
9:53great debt of gratitude and many others
9:55do as well so my first question for you
9:58is
9:59what was your mindset around the time
10:02that you wrote 4our
10:04Body 4our Work week but in particular
10:064-Hour Body because the protocols in
10:08that book are so very useful they were
10:11at the time it was published they still
10:13are now and so many of the things like
10:17ice baths the discussion around Brown
10:19fat thermogenesis um resistance training
10:22in its uh you know kind of basic form of
10:26just providing enough Progressive
10:27overload to get an adaptation not
10:29excessively long workouts weight loss
10:31slow carb diet um and on and on and on
10:36what were you thinking at that time like
10:38what if you can think back to then like
10:40what what were you foraging for what
10:42were you thinking about when you woke up
10:43in the morning think oh I'm going to go
10:44find all this stuff that at the time was
10:46really esoteric because it is all played
10:48out very well um what I'm basically
10:51saying is if you want to know what's
10:53going to be happening hot and useful in
10:565 years 10 years and onwards just look
10:59at what Tim's doing at any moment so
11:02there it is well thank you for the very
11:05generous comparison and intro I'm
11:07thrilled to be here so thanks for having
11:09me and the 4 our body represented an
11:13opportunity for me to do a few things
11:15the first was to diversify my identity
11:18from outside of the realm of the say
11:20business category so it was a deliberate
11:22move since the success of the first book
11:24book bought me permission to do
11:27something else that Publishers would
11:28still want to gamble on
11:30I wanted to see if I could maybe like a
11:32Michael Lewis take my audience with me
11:34to other topics so that was a lateral
11:37move that was very deliberate from a a
11:39career optionality standpoint and then I
11:42was doing I think what I've done for a
11:43very long time and what I enjoy doing
11:45which is looking at the most prevalent
11:50beliefs and maybe dogmatic assumptions
11:53in a given
11:54field could be anything if anyone says
11:57always never should I pay attention and
12:00take note of that they may very well be
12:02right but if anything is said in
12:05absolutes I like to stress test and in
12:08the case of say physical performance or
12:11physical
12:12manipulation
12:14tracking 2008 2009 was a very
12:17interesting time because a number of
12:19different Technologies were coming
12:22online meaning being adopted by small
12:25groups you had the very early stages of
12:27say accelerometers as variables you had
12:31a number of different Innovations and
12:33means of tracking that had never been
12:36available before you had for instance
12:39and this took a bit of fiing on my side
12:41it wasn't immediately on the road map
12:43for the 4our body but continuous glucose
12:45monitors at the time that was I want to
12:49say exclusively limited to type 1
12:52diabetics or maybe type two diabetics
12:54but largely type 1 diabetics and what
12:57captured my interest and I can't recall
12:59how I came across it but it was probably
13:01through the very earliest iterations of
13:04what later became the Quantified Self
13:06movement and I remember attending the
13:08very first gathering at Kevin Kelly's
13:10house in Pacifica California this is
13:13this was around 2009 12 people 13 people
13:17to discuss quantifying Health but the
13:22the example of a professional race car
13:24driver I can't remember the the form
13:26factor whether it was F1 or Nascar or
13:28other who who was using this continual
13:30glucose monitor
13:32for paying attention to glucose levels
13:35while
13:36driving and I thought to myself would
13:40that not be useful for healthy normals
13:43would that not have other applications
13:45if this if this is being used by high
13:46performer in this type of context might
13:49it have other types of applications
13:50which then led me to use the very early
13:54versions of Dexcom which were really
13:56painful to implant no longer the case of
13:58course that's changed a lot and I wanted
14:01to see how I might be able to find a
14:04handful of different categories of
14:06things there's the new like the
14:08genuinely new like CGM at that point was
14:11genuinely new the very
14:14old that might have some room for
14:18scientific investigation and I would say
14:21when I say scientific I don't
14:22necessarily mean randomized control
14:25trials at a university I do think as an
14:27N of one if you think about study design
14:31and you can even blind you could even
14:33Placebo control and I knew people in the
14:36small subculture of Quantified Self who
14:37did this you can I think approach things
14:40in a methodical way where you can make a
14:43lot of progress in trying to determine
14:46causality or lack thereof looking at
14:48very old things looking at orphaned
14:50things so for
14:52instance there are many examples in the
14:55world of doping where you have say Bal
14:59back in the day where famously Barry
15:02Bonds and others purportedly use things
15:04like the cream and the clear and these
15:07were based on anabolics that were
15:10sourced from Soviet literature or older
15:13literature from the 50s and 60s that
15:16might not be on the radar of say the
15:18anti-doping uh groups that would
15:20administer the testing so all of these
15:23different buckets were of interest to me
15:26and I begin where I usually do which is
15:28interviewing folks so I would interview
15:29one or two people in a given field and I
15:33might ask them any number of questions
15:36so one is what are the Nerds doing on
15:38the weekends or at night this is also
15:40really good for investing it's like all
15:41right what are the really technical
15:43nerds doing at night or on the weekends
15:47after they've put in a really long work
15:48day or work week let's take a really
15:51close look at that another one is and
15:54I'll I'll create a flow for this but
15:57what are rich people doing now
15:59that everyone or tens or hundreds of
16:02millions of people might be doing 10
16:05years from now and an example of that
16:08would be let's just say full-time
16:09assistant virtual assistant AI right so
16:13we've seen the needs and wants being
16:17addressed by different technology but
16:19it's an iteration of the same thing on
16:20some level in the case of say using chat
16:23GPT tied into zapier for various
16:26functions and then where are people
16:28cobbling together awkward Solutions so
16:31where are people piecing together
16:33awkward
16:35Solutions and is there room for some
16:37type of innovation there these are a few
16:39of the questions that I would not only
16:41ask myself but ask experts in different
16:43areas so if I end up spending time say
16:45this was a few years prior
16:48to writing the 4-Hour Body I spent time
16:51at Nasa as and was interacting with a
16:53number of scientists some people who
16:55were working on all sorts of biological
16:57tests and at
16:59genomics and had a very Frank discussion
17:02about where they thought if they had to
17:04push right so I'll ask questions
17:06like push a little bit into the realm of
17:09Science Fiction and speculation because
17:11I'm sure you can't support any type of
17:14projection like that with the literature
17:16with scientific literature but what do
17:18you think some of the risks are of say
17:20publishing your genome because at the
17:22time a number of high-profile folks had
17:24just made their full genomes available
17:26they're like well I think in the near
17:27future it' be possible
17:29to reconstruct someone's face based on
17:32their genetic data and they like high
17:35degree of confidence like zero 100% how
17:37confident yeah 80 90% I'm like okay I
17:40should pay attention to that because if
17:41you're making your data available let's
17:43just say and it's anonymized per se you
17:45still might be identifiable it's like
17:47okay that raises some interesting
17:48questions like okay well then how might
17:50you get around that how might you put in
17:53safeguards so that you are the one and
17:56only keeper of your data so to speak uh
17:59brought up all sorts of targeted
18:01Weaponry uh bi sort of bioweapons
18:04possibilities that I was interested in
18:06and then I would ask that person who's
18:08clearly like willing to step outside of
18:11the box of whatever he's working on
18:12dayto day who are two of your close
18:15friends or two thinkers you really pay a
18:18lot of attention to are kind of at the
18:19bleeding edge of something and
18:21unorthodox and then I would just
18:23continue to have these conversations
18:25over and over again and the the the the
18:28the dream of development that I paid a
18:30lot of attention to is something along
18:31the lines of the following so the the
18:34the very Beginnings are usually in some
18:37type of extreme case and I think the
18:40extremes and this goes for product
18:42design as well but the extremes inform
18:44the mean but not vice versa so you can
18:46actually learn a lot by studying the
18:47edge cases so race horses for instance
18:51uh you'll often see things start with
18:53say race horses uh or people with
18:55wasting diseases for instance or any
18:58type of chronic or terminal illness who
19:01are willing to try some more
19:03experimental
19:05interventions then let's just take one
19:07step further bodybuilding see a lot of
19:10interesting behavior in bodybuilding and
19:12high level athletes then billionaires
19:13then rich people then the rest of us
19:15right so my assumption is and was for
19:18the for our body that along the lines of
19:21William Gibson's quote you know the
19:22future is already here it's just not
19:24evenly distributed so I'm never
19:26predicting the future I'm just finding
19:28the seeds that are germinating that I
19:30think are going to bloom and end up
19:32spreading really really widely uh so
19:35that's that's that's generally where I
19:38start and I assume the practitioners are
19:39going to be ahead of the papers so
19:42studying say the coaches whose jobs are
19:45on the line who are getting paid based
19:47on Athlete Performance and assuming that
19:49a lot of that will
19:51eventually if it holds up make its way
19:53into say the peer-reviewed exercise
19:55science papers but it's going to have a
19:56lag time of three to five years at least
19:59at least at least takes a long time yeah
20:01science is often very slow to catch up
20:04yeah um you mentioned many things I have
20:07questions about um you mentioned paying
20:10attention to the new the very old or the
20:13orphaned um so interesting and I just
20:17thought I'd uh tell you that when you
20:19sit down with a graduate student or a
20:21postdoc and they're trying to come up
20:23with a project rarely do you say you
20:25know like what do you want to work on
20:27and they fire back like really
20:29interesting question sometimes they do
20:31but that's the rare person more often
20:34than not you'll send them to the
20:36literature and they'll come back with
20:37like okay there's this new technique
20:39that we can use to answer a set of
20:41questions better than ever before or
20:44there's a very old Theory I want to
20:46revisit or there's this theory that no
20:48one pays attention to in fact we had one
20:50guest on here ODed Ravi who is studying
20:52it essentially um inheritance of traits
20:54transgenerational inheritance of traits
20:56it's a little bit although different
20:58from Lamar
20:59uh uh Evolution but it's a lot like that
21:03um in some ways and you know these
21:05orphan theories that everyone assumed
21:06were wrong and there is a basis for them
21:08so I think there's Real Genius in that U
21:11analysis um it also struck me as you
21:14were um listing off some of your process
21:17Circa the the writing of the 4-Hour Body
21:20that I and many other people are are
21:23probably curious about what the
21:25operations around all that looked like
21:27so are you or were you at the time like
21:29waking up in the morning going okay I'm
21:31going to take a walk and think about the
21:33new the old and the orphaned or
21:36um I'm GNA take a walk or sit in a chair
21:39and think about like what are the Nerds
21:41doing right now what are rich people
21:42doing right now cobbling together
21:44awkward Solutions was was that
21:46exploration a structured practice for
21:49you or is this just something that um
21:51was the consequence of being Tim Ferris
21:53waking up in the morning and just like
21:55leaning into that because i' I've
21:57experienced both right you know but I
21:59think a lot of us are uh Curious I mean
22:02that there's a lot of Mystique around
22:03you um my best to dispell it whether
22:07whether you like it or not um it it it's
22:11there and um and we're not trying to to
22:13pry but pry away is the is the
22:16establishment of structure for you
22:19something that's the consequence of
22:21structure in the first place it's like
22:23okay now it's time to think or do you
22:26just allow things to geyser up to the
22:27surface
22:29I do both and I would say that in the
22:31case of the 4-Hour Body it's it's a bit
22:33of an
22:34anomaly compared to my later books
22:36because I had recorded effectively every
22:39work ad I had done since age 16 as a
22:41competitive athlete I just I had a lot
22:43of records and I kept copious notes on
22:46supplement use and everything imaginable
22:49so I have what you might call
22:51hypergraphia I just capture almost
22:54everything in writing and that was very
22:57useful because various points in time
22:59let's just say I looked at a photograph
23:00of myself from making this up but 2004
23:04and I think I would like to look and
23:06feel like that again okay let me revisit
23:07my workout logs let me just replicate
23:10the preceding three to six months of
23:13workouts and look at my intake and my
23:16diet at the time and lo and behold more
23:18or less I could replicate the same type
23:20of look and feel and performance so I
23:23had a lot already logged that I thought
23:26was worth examining and putting up under
23:28scrutiny trying to replicate with other
23:30people I do think replication is really
23:32important and then when it came time to
23:35commit to writing the book I thought
23:37about what types
23:39of mini books would be of great interest
23:42to me personally and that book like many
23:46of my other books was written in such a
23:48fashion that it could be a Choose Your
23:50Own Adventure book did not need to be
23:52read in fact in many ways it shouldn't
23:53be read linearly from page one to the
23:56end you get to pick and choose which
23:58chapter chapters are of Interest based
23:59on breath hold vertical jump endurance
24:03hypertrophy cold exposure for fat loss
24:05whatever it might be and then I began
24:08talking to people and at the at the very
24:11outer bounds of
24:14self-experimentation at least in the Bay
24:16Area it's a pretty small community so
24:19you're one or two lily pads from just
24:21about everyone and it's not accidental
24:23that I put myself in that environment in
24:25San Francisco
24:27specifically and more generally in the
24:30Bay Area Silicon Valley because there's
24:32just a high surface area for luck to
24:35stick to because you have so many
24:37serendipitous encounters you have so
24:39many people focusing on different
24:41disciplines that I think was the
24:45fertilizer and the fertile ground for
24:48everything else was actually the
24:50choosing the wear of writing physically
24:53being located in San Francisco and then
24:56when I'm structuring things
24:59maybe I'll get into some of the
25:00nitty-gritty but I was using at the time
25:03and I still like to use a program called
25:05scrivener which is actually designed
25:06predominantly for
25:08screenwriting it's used for many things
25:10now novels and so on it's expanded its
25:12reached quite a bit but it allows you to
25:14gather research and all of your
25:17documents and drafts so that you can
25:19move them around in very novel ways so
25:22you can view say a split pane of your
25:25research and what you're working on
25:27simultaneously with without having to
25:28toggle between a lot of different
25:30windows and I was very promiscuous in my
25:33gathering of data so I would gather from
25:37say the web using a Web Clipper from
25:39Evernote which I was involved with as a
25:41company and basically without bias
25:44capture as much as possible put three
25:47asterisks next to anything that I
25:49thought I really might want to revisit
25:51after I had read something a second time
25:52which I would always do then I could
25:54controll F to find just three asterisks
25:57because they don't occur much in normal
25:59writing just like people authors writers
26:02will you use TK meaning find such and
26:06such a date data needs to be inserted
26:08later but I don't want to interrupt the
26:10flow of writing let me put in TK because
26:11it doesn't really appear in natural
26:12English much uh in terms of structured
26:15thinking the way I approached it was
26:18during that period of time in my life it
26:21was interviews tracking people down
26:25conversations emails reading so
26:28ingestion let's just say for the workday
26:32then a break for training and and
26:36actually using myself as the human
26:38guinea pig for various things that had
26:39surfaced that might be on the docket
26:41where were you training at that time San
26:43Francisco is not uh famous for amazing
26:46gyms it's not famous for amazing gyms at
26:48the time I was training mostly at a
26:51Climbing Gym called Mission Cliffs they
26:53didn't have much but they had barbells
26:54and they had and they had kettle bells I
26:57also had in the in the walkway leading
27:00from the front door of the apartment I
27:02was renting it was more of a house the
27:04front door all the way to the first set
27:05of stairs there were 30 K kettle bells
27:08so various types and I was training for
27:10certification because I wanted to put
27:12myself on some type of deadline with
27:13accountability for that type of training
27:16to get a better understanding of it so
27:18trained for a few hours I also had
27:20developed a friendship with Kelly
27:22starett so San Francisco CrossFit who I
27:24have tremendous amount of respect for
27:26likewise on multiple levels and his new
27:29book yeah built to move his great book
27:32he's so good yeah he he really not only
27:35talks the talk but walks the walk and
27:38exemplifies many of the capabilities
27:40that he teaches which I take seriously I
27:43like
27:44practitioners not just the people with
27:47pretty theories although the theories
27:48are important I prefer to see someone
27:50who can actually put them into practice
27:52so Kelly served that function uh
27:54certainly and we're still very close
27:56friends and then
27:59after that all right shake off the
28:01cobwebs get the body moving get the
28:04brain moving also eat and then I would
28:07actually focus on synthesis so I would
28:09write generally from let's call it 900
28:13p.m. or 10 p.m. through to 4 or 5 a.m.
28:17and I would ride the wave if I happened
28:19to be in the zone if I weren't in the
28:21zone I wouldn't force it and I would try
28:23to get more sleep but I have always
28:27performed best with my writing in those
28:30witching hours of let's call it 10: p.m.
28:32to 4:00 a.m. and my experience is
28:35that the writers I've interviewed the
28:39the writer friends I've become close
28:42with if you look at when they made
28:45themselves not necessarily what they do
28:47now right but what they did that
28:49eventually got them to escape
28:51velocity they're almost always doing
28:54most of their writing very late at night
28:56or very early in the morning when the
28:58rest of the world or their social group
29:00is inactive wow yeah and I say wow
29:03because uh of course all of this was
29:05prior to the publication of Matt
29:07Walker's seminal book right why we sleep
29:10which I really see as the book that
29:12shifted a lot of people fortunately from
29:15the I'll sleep when I'm dead mindset uh
29:18to I'll you know to really paying
29:20attention to it and um you know I don't
29:22think that gets enough credit I mean
29:23there uh there's been a revision of a
29:25few points within that book but the
29:27majority of it is just spot on and Hyper
29:30legitimate so good and um and yet what
29:33you're describing is a schedule that you
29:35know starting to write at 900 p.m. and
29:37finishing up around 4:00 a.m. but you
29:38talked about research earlier that day
29:40and training and eating so were there
29:41naps in there I would sleep from say 4:
29:45to maybe 11 or 12 so I would be getting
29:48up later and I've had conversations with
29:51Matt about this and there
29:55are night owls and morning Larks and
29:59there are certainly differences in the
30:01code meaning the genetics but that
30:03worked very very well for me for a very
30:05long time it is however a very
30:09challenging social schedule so once you
30:12have a significant other and every
30:14girlfriend I've ever had is a morning
30:16person if you want to spend time
30:19together that schedule just does not
30:20work so I made compromises later for the
30:24social side of things but if if you put
30:26a gun to my head and said you need to
30:28write the best book humanly possible
30:29that is your only priority outside of
30:31some exercise and fuel I would follow
30:34the same schedule I know several um very
30:37successful podcasters Lex fredman in
30:39particular who I think he's trying to
30:41follow a more normal schedule now but
30:43he's pseudo nocturnal at least by my ex
30:45my read yeah um and there are couple
30:48other uh online content creators um
30:51Derek from more plates more dates who's
30:53hyperproductive in his domain and is
30:56mostly nocturnal
30:58um and then as you're describing your
31:01writing routine and your overall routine
31:02I was thinking that you know the the
31:04great skateboarder everyone knows Tony
31:05Hawk who is obviously a great
31:07skateboarder no doubt about that but
31:09Rodney Mullen who invented the all on
31:12Street the kickflip the all like Rodney
31:14is basically nocturnal and has been for
31:16a long time and would you know
31:17skateboard up and down the bordwalk in
31:19Santa Monica in the middle of the night
31:20because lack of distraction is really
31:22was and he's been doing that since his
31:23teens I don't know what he's doing these
31:25days but I think a lot of creators just
31:28need space and and I always wonder if
31:31that's because when they at least the
31:33ones that are not uh socially
31:36dysfunctional like yourself who when
31:38they are around people there's this
31:41almost hopefully a desire to interact so
31:43you almost have to remove the stimulus
31:45completely yeah it it it removes the
31:48plausible deniability which might not be
31:51the perfect use of that phrase but in
31:52the sense that you it's harder to fool
31:54yourself into thinking you're doing
31:56something important when you're checking
31:58your messages or social media at 2: in
32:01the morning who are we kidding folks you
32:03should be writing in this case right and
32:06writers will do anything to avoid
32:07writing I remember IR Rand wrote a book
32:10about writing which is actually
32:12fantastic I can't remember the exact
32:14title it might just be on non-fiction
32:15writing something like that and she
32:17talked about polishing the sneakers or
32:19the shoes before writing like I really
32:20just need to do this one thing which is
32:22to just clean up that shoe because
32:23somebody should really clean it up and
32:25at some point I should clean it up and
32:26therefore why don't I just do there's no
32:27time like the present I'll just do that
32:29it's all to avoid writing which is the
32:31harder thing and in my conversations
32:34with Matt also I should say
32:37that as someone who has self-described
32:41as a person who struggles with onset
32:43insomnia Matt made the point and
32:46sometimes we need to relearn things
32:47maybe you should just go to bed
32:50later sure and that might address some
32:53of this onset insomnia and I don't know
32:55the causes for that but I do get a
32:57Second Wind very late could be related
33:00to some cortisol release abnormality or
33:03just different scripting in my system
33:05who knows I'd like to take a quick break
33:08and acknowledge one of our sponsors
33:09athletic greens athletic greens now
33:12called ag1 is a vitamin mineral
33:14probiotic drink that covers all of your
33:16foundational nutritional needs I've been
33:19taking athletic green since 2012 so I'm
33:21delighted that they're sponsoring the
33:23podcast the reason I started taking
33:24athletic greens and the reason I still
33:26take athletic greens once usually twice
33:28a day is that it gets me the probiotics
33:31that I need for gut health our gut is
33:33very important it's populated by gut
33:35microbiota that communicate with the
33:37brain the immune system and basically
33:39all the biological systems of our body
33:40to strongly impact our immediate and
33:42long-term health and those probiotics
33:45and athletic greens are optimal and
33:47vital for microbiotic health in addition
33:50athletic greens contains a number of
33:52adaptogens vitamins and minerals that
33:53make sure that all of my foundational
33:55nutritional needs are met and it tastes
33:58great if you'd like to try athletic
34:00greens you can go to athletic greens.com
34:02huberman and they'll give you five free
34:05travel packs that make it really easy to
34:06mix up athletic greens while you're on
34:08the road in the car on the plane Etc and
34:10they'll give you a year supply of
34:12vitamin D3 K2 again that's athletic
34:14greens.com huberman to get the five free
34:17travel packs and the year supply of
34:19vitamin D3 K2 I'll mention one other one
34:23other maybe shuris that I use for trying
34:26to peek around Corners which
34:29is if I find an example of an outlier
34:34trying to find two or three right
34:35because one is an exception two is
34:37interesting three is worth investigating
34:39that's sort of how I think about it and
34:42I recognize the plural of anecdote does
34:43not equal data however a lot of
34:47interesting discoveries begin as case
34:50studies or case histories and so there
34:53are some things we could talk about that
34:55that I've paid attention to over the
34:56last few years that are not in the for
34:58our body that I think are quite
35:00interesting and raise very very exciting
35:03questions uh but I'd love to hear about
35:05those yeah and and along the lines of
35:08what I call anic data I mean most of
35:10what we know about human memory stems
35:12from one patient hm who had his
35:15hippocampi removed for epilepsy and of
35:18course there have been Millions probably
35:20close to millions of studies in animals
35:22and humans focusing on the hippocampi
35:24but most of what we know about human
35:26memory is from one guy yeah yeah exactly
35:29so there's there's there's a lot to be
35:33examined not all of it will get funding
35:35for rcts let's be realistic this is
35:37especially true if you're hoping for any
35:40type of directive data and notice I'm
35:42not saying conclusive but if if you are
35:44a human who's going to be making
35:45decisions about diet Health exercise if
35:49you want any consensus you're doomed
35:51you'll be you're not going to get any
35:53answers before you die can you say that
35:54twice so that the internet can hear it
35:56extra loud and clear for those of you
35:58that are arguing about nutrition on
36:00Twitter like it it might actually be
36:03life wasted yeah I mean I'm not being
36:05judgmental I mean I think that there's
36:07validity in lots of those Pockets
36:09there's stuff that's wrong in lots of
36:11those Pockets yeah um their diets that
36:13work extremely well like you know 4-Hour
36:16diet or slow carb I always call the 4our
36:19diet but the Slow Carb Diet it works
36:21extremely well anytime I've followed it
36:23you I get much leaner and stronger and
36:25all that stuff um uh that it's uh
36:27purported to do it it works um but yeah
36:30maybe you could just uh explain what you
36:33mean by that because I think there are
36:34some argument slf friction spaces that
36:38that are truly an energy sync yeah I
36:42would just say focus on what works for
36:44you and your family or your team and if
36:47you're arguing on the internet recognize
36:49that you're just doing it because you
36:50like arguing on the internet you're not
36:51going to convince anyone of anything and
36:54uh
36:57you're just going to make yourself uh
37:00more frustrated if you plan on changing
37:02any opinions so for me it's Live and Let
37:05Live and uh the more people who engage
37:10in that type of behavior the more
37:12competitive Advantage do you have if you
37:13don't so for me I'm like okay if you
37:16want to spend this vital non-renewable
37:20resource of yours called time on that if
37:22I ever compete against you I'm going to
37:24win so great I'll just uh I'll I'll also
37:26not even try to convin you to stop doing
37:28that unless you see the logic in it
37:30which I have which is why I also don't
37:32have at least for two years have mostly
37:34had no social apps installed on my phone
37:37uh and we could talk about that because
37:39I think recognizing that these things
37:41have been engineered to overcome any
37:44type of self-discipline with billions of
37:47dollars at stake uh should lead you to
37:50believe that you're bringing a a knife
37:51to a gunfight so I just don't have the
37:53apps on my phone to begin with and I
37:56find it much more gratifying
37:58to
37:59see disproportionate
38:02change from small inputs so that's what
38:05I'm looking for and I'm also looking for
38:09changes that are easy to make that can
38:12have high adherence that have very
38:14limited downside which is very different
38:16from proving something for instance in
38:19the 4our body took a look at the
38:22potential effect of cell phones or the
38:26proximity of cell phones to say gadal
38:28function and reproductive
38:30health and the literature that was
38:33available at the time was very limited
38:37had some animal studies mice rats Etc I
38:41recognize humans are not just large mice
38:44so they don't always translate but I
38:45looked at I said okay looking at this
38:48simplistically is it plausible that
38:51there could be similar effects on humans
38:54seems to be the case also based on
38:56conversations with people people who are
38:58Specialists but would never go on record
39:01therefore if your phone is in your
39:02pocket just have it on airplane mode I
39:04mean it it does not have a high cost and
39:09and then pending any revision we can see
39:13but while the jury is still out I'm
39:15going to risk mitigate by taking this
39:18step yeah well and I just want to say
39:20thank you there too I read that
39:22recommendation I followed the
39:24recommendation of not keeping the phone
39:26on in my front pocket or back pocket um
39:29and that's anic data um my sperm
39:33analysis isn't relevant to this
39:35conversation but worked out but you know
39:38you could say well that's not
39:39necessarily because you had the phone
39:40off but um I did a very long detailed
39:42episode on male and female fertility
39:45there is now a what I view as a really
39:47quality metaanalysis and it's pretty
39:50clear that there are effects of the
39:52smartphone on proximity of the
39:55smartphone when it's turned on
39:58uh that are not good for sperm isn't
40:00necessarily going to render somebody
40:01sterile but um on sperm that can be
40:05separated out from the heat effects and
40:07so essentially this is another instance
40:09in which uh you were you were right um
40:12and I think more data will come out and
40:14am I a EMF conspiracy theorist uh no um
40:18do I wear tinfoil underwear no um but uh
40:23I think it's interesting I think it's
40:24important and uh thanks to you
40:28um queued my attention to it in fact I I
40:30teach about that in a a course on on
40:33neural circuits and biology and health
40:35and disease amazing and I don't expect
40:39to get everything right at all that
40:41would be crazy i' like to think I'm not
40:44totally crazy and it's very important if
40:47you are going to do self-
40:48experimentation or experimentation in
40:50small groups which the Quantified Self
40:53community did quite well and I think
40:55still does quite well
40:57you should really make every effort to
41:01not fool yourself which is hard it's
41:05it's challenging at times but read books
41:07like bad science read books like How to
41:09lie with Statistics ensure that you are
41:12able to read studies well you don't have
41:15to be the best in the world but that you
41:17can on some level identify the strengths
41:20and weaknesses of studies this doesn't
41:22take a long time certainly our friend
41:25petera Dr petera has studying studies
41:27which is a multiple part blog series
41:30dedicated to this there are other ways
41:32to approach it I took one of his
41:33podcasts republished it on the Tim Farah
41:35show because it talked about how to
41:37examine studies what powering refers to
41:40things like this in the span of one or
41:42two weeks you could really become
41:44literate with the building blocks of
41:47scientific literacy with respect to
41:50reading studies and that gives you such
41:53an enormous life Advantage it's hard
41:57hard to overstate yeah I agree and I
41:59also think that there are a lot of
42:00things that just simply will not ever be
42:02explored in a randomized control trial
42:05um one of the things that Peter and I
42:06have talked about before is he texts me
42:08you know what are your thoughts on
42:09bpc157 this is a gastric peptide that's
42:12now been synthesized so people will
42:14inject it into a tissue that they're
42:16trying to heal or improve lots and lots
42:19of anic data on bpc157
42:22making injuries heal faster Etc again
42:25anic data I've used it I took an
42:27injection of it yesterday in fact
42:31um Peter basically is not a Believer
42:35because there a lack of published data
42:37on this which is perfectly fine or I
42:39should say he's um skeptical um and so
42:42there's always that possibility of a
42:43placebo effect but I don't think there
42:46will ever be a really nice controlled
42:49trial on bpc 1570 because the financial
42:51incentives aren't there and no smart
42:54graduate student is going to go do a
42:55thesis on this that so that's a reality
42:57I mean maybe one will do it now that
42:59we're having this conversation but it
43:00just doesn't that the payout isn't there
43:03yeah and that last one you mentioned is
43:05one that people miss a lot people doing
43:07these studies are people with careers
43:09who are planning their careers and so
43:11they choose what they're going to invest
43:13time in very carefully so that's another
43:15limiter on what will end up in an RCT or
43:19not right so uh I think that's good for
43:22people to hear and as you get more
43:26involved with science and in my case
43:28through a foundation you know Cay
43:30Foundation funding a lot of early stage
43:31science you realize how expensive it is
43:33and how long it takes it is a long-term
43:37investment and if you are looking to
43:40make behavioral changes or
43:44modify aspects of yourself cognitive
43:46physical psycho emotional or
43:48otherwise
43:50identifying interventions right options
43:52that seem to have some plausible upside
43:55like there is a
43:57a mechanism that might make sense in
44:00humans if you feel fairly certain
44:03there's very limited downside which
44:04should include talking to people who are
44:07presenting their results as anic
44:10data then maybe you consider using X if
44:14you can cap your downside right and I
44:16recall for instance looking at trans
44:19Resveratrol specifically not for
44:21longevity but in potentially increasing
44:23endurance for for our body and I ended
44:28up testing it and there's a funny story
44:31associated with that didn't quite work
44:33out as planned and I don't use it any
44:35longer but what I experienced prior to
44:39actually finding this on forums was
44:41joint pain elbow pain the one most
44:44consistent side effect was what felt
44:46like tendonosis in the elbows and then I
44:49went online and I'd already done this
44:51but I hadn't come across I think it was
44:52the 500 group people have been using 500
44:55milligrams of trans res trol daily for
44:57long periods of time and one of the most
45:01common reported side effects is joint
45:03pain and I was like okay I'm not willing
45:05to make that trade-off yeah and makes
45:09sense to me yeah I think um it would be
45:13fun if ever you were willing that we
45:15could do uh a hybrid podcast on
45:18supplement
45:20fails I have some spectacular failures
45:22as do I and I'm thinking I'm thinking
45:24about a few of them I mean some that
45:26were really
45:27um like took me off course like there's
45:29one supplement uh called bulbine
45:32natalensis this is another another one
45:34of these shrubs sounds like an infection
45:36I mean this thing will really spike your
45:39testosterone and free testosterone I'm
45:41talking back acne like huge strength
45:43gains aggression it's really wild and
45:45then after about seven to 10 days it all
45:49crashes and you go below Baseline oh
45:52sounds Terri yeah even testicular pain
45:54so it was unclear so you if you're a
45:55smart person you use right so I can
45:59understand why people are skeptical of
46:00certain things and then of course there
46:01are supplements that I'm a big fan of
46:03and that you're a big fan of we talked
46:04about those things elsewhere but um it
46:06might be fun to do supplement fails
46:08podcast if ever you were willing that
46:10would I could do just experimental fails
46:12oh yeah yeah n of one experimental fails
46:15which include things that people might
46:16not think about for instance for our
46:18body had quite a bit of real estate
46:22dedicated to looking at things like PRP
46:25so PL rich plasma I think there's a
46:27rooll for it it's not useful for
46:29everything but for certain types of
46:31injury or repair I think it's very
46:34interesting um
46:35but uh every time you get injected this
46:39is where you have to be careful because
46:40there are very few free lunches out
46:42there there's there's usually some type
46:44of feedback loop your system is very
46:47smart at Auto regulating things this is
46:50this is outside of that a consideration
46:52that I hadn't made which is every time
46:54you have an injection there's a chance
46:56of an infection
46:57particularly if the sight in my case was
47:00the elbow and the injection was made for
47:03the
47:04PRP not quite where it should have been
47:07slightly to the rear of the elbow where
47:10the the skin is very thick and so it
47:13pushed uh staff bacteria from a mid
47:17layer of the skin into the joint capsule
47:19not good and that really could have
47:21ended very poorly I ended up having to
47:23go to the ER and get it get it all
47:25removed and so on but that could have
47:27ended up uh in a in a much much more
47:31severe situation so you do have to be
47:34careful with this stuff I've become a
47:36little more conservative with some what
47:38I do including injections I'm like all
47:41right like let me think twice about the
47:44injections if I'm going to swallow
47:45something let me make sure I'm really
47:47looking at the implications for the
47:48liver yeah smart very smart I'm curious
47:52about some of the things that you talked
47:55about in the 4-Hour Body and the that
47:56you've mentioned today things like
47:59accelerometers continuous glucose
48:01monitors deliberate cold
48:03exposure how many of those things are
48:05you still doing on a regular basis and
48:08how many do you um you know use a couple
48:10times a week or a couple times a month
48:12or go through phases of using and not
48:14using cold exposure I use as
48:17consistently as is practical so if I'm
48:19traveling it's a little harder but we're
48:21in LA right now one of the first things
48:23I did was find a few options for
48:25contrast therapy MH one of the first
48:27things I did and by contrast I do not
48:31mean infrared sauna and cold plunge I'd
48:35much rather have hot and cold water just
48:37in terms of sort of speed of heating the
48:39Japanese approach right for just speed
48:41of vasod dilation particularly for
48:44injury recovery I think it's incredibly
48:47helpful for mood regulation certainly
48:49that's the case and cold water for mood
48:52regulation or the treatment of say
48:55depression or as a pre Ive intervention
48:58to avoid or mitigate depression is old
49:03used to be prescribed for melancholy and
49:06people like the Vos of the world would
49:08be prescribed cold baths so that was
49:11something I was like well let's take a
49:13look at some of the old history read
49:15about that and then look into PubMed and
49:17so on to see what might be supported so
49:19the cold I'm still using I become
49:22increasingly interested this was not in
49:23the 4-Hour Body but whole body
49:25hyperthermia
49:27often excluding the head
49:29for depression which I know there's some
49:33some research UCSF ex right now yeah
49:36really interesting studies too early to
49:38report I'm not involved in these but I
49:40think these are really important studies
49:42because for all the people saying oh
49:44well you know it's ice bath stuff you
49:47know metabolism this metabolism that one
49:49thing that's very clear is long lasting
49:52very significant increase in the catacol
49:54means dopamine epinephrine
49:55norepinephrine um not a replacement
49:58perhaps for anti-depressant medication
49:59but as you said to to move the needle
50:01toward anti-depressant States um that's
50:03the cocktail and um heat as well yeah
50:07yeah and the hypothermia especially the
50:09way is formatted right now with some of
50:11the research is is very early stages
50:13there's going to be less adherence it's
50:15not as readily available say cold shower
50:17cold bath so I do think about the
50:18Practical implications of that but right
50:20now it's it's very interesting slow carb
50:22diet still use it all the time it is not
50:24my default 247 as it us used to be so
50:28maybe I'm just getting older and more
50:29self-indulgent but if I find myself
50:32going off the rails a bit and I'm like
50:34okay I'm getting closer to Muffin Top
50:36here let's stage an intervention then I
50:39will go immediately back to slow carb
50:40diet and within within a matter of
50:42weeks it's it's pretty easily corrected
50:45and just a cue for people I know it's um
50:48you know slow carb diet um achieved
50:51great prominence in fact wasn't it
50:52featured on uh or mentioned in an
50:54episode of Orange Is the New Black I it
50:57might have been it's made it's made
50:58appearances on a handful of shows great
51:01I realized that I've been referring to
51:02the Slow Carb Diet several times
51:04throughout this discussion so for those
51:06that aren't familiar with the Slow Carb
51:07Diet I know they can go look up what
51:09that is but so that we can keep them
51:11here uh for the rest of this discussion
51:13and not have to send them out and back
51:15uh just yet um could you give us just a
51:18brief top Contour of what the slow carb
51:20diet is sure so slow carb diet is
51:23intended to be a simple easy to adhere
51:27to diet for people who have perhaps
51:29failed other diets that allows you to
51:32recompose your body so improve muscle
51:35mass decrease body fat percentage and
51:38the rules are really simple and that's
51:41part of what makes it work it's not
51:43ideal for every sport in every
51:45circumstance but broadly speaking it
51:47works for a lot of people who've had
51:48trouble with dieting in the
51:50past so rule number one don't drink
51:54calories that's it very simple so black
51:57coffee unsweetened tea great juice out
52:00anything with calories out you could add
52:03a little bit of heavy cream to your
52:05coffee let's say uh but that's that's
52:07also bending the rules in a way that I
52:09don't like so in the beginning it's like
52:11follow the rules so you can break them
52:12later so in the beginning let's just say
52:14you can't drink calories number two
52:16don't eat anything white sounds pretty
52:19basic right just don't eat anything that
52:20is the color of white or that could be
52:22white basically that means you're going
52:23to be avoiding starches and uh things
52:27that are are similar to starches that
52:29includes things like oatmeal that
52:31includes things like oatmeal so roughly
52:34speaking just avoiding things that are
52:36white or that could be white will get
52:38you pretty far and yes there are
52:40exceptions like cauliflower fine you can
52:41have cauliflower but again don't get
52:43fancy right it's it's very easy to
52:45outsmart yourself when it comes to
52:47behavioral change keep it simple so for
52:50at least two weeks forget about the
52:52exceptions
52:54right don't drink calories don't eat
52:57anything white and then eat 30 grams of
53:01protein within 30 minutes of waking up
53:04okay got that and then there are a few
53:07buckets you can choose from right so you
53:09have
53:11vegetables beans and
53:13lentils uh and then some type of protein
53:16so you're going to come up with meals
53:18that you can
53:19follow without deviating for a period of
53:22one or two weeks just come up with the
53:24same meals and that's going to sound
53:26boring yes but guess what you do it
53:28already you just might not realize it
53:31and the the lentils and the beans
53:33specifically as a prere we can get into
53:37some of the reasons but add a lot of
53:38fiber and also inhibit appetite right so
53:42that's actually a very important
53:43component of these meals and there may
53:46be a handful of other rules but those
53:47are the basics and then the Redemption
53:51is take one day off per week and just go
53:55crazy that that's cheat day
53:57there are some epic cheat days out there
53:59some I've captured for myself and
54:02anything goes when I say anything I do
54:04mean anything so if you want to consume
54:06multiple pizzas pints of ice cream
54:09whatever indulge I left one out no fruit
54:13during the week so avoid fruit avoid
54:15fructose so agave nectar anything that
54:19is sort of hidden sugar avoid all that
54:23uh it's a no added sweeteners obviously
54:25but avoid avoid fruit and fructose and
54:28again it's not going to kill you guess
54:30what if you're from European ancestry
54:33your ancestry did not have like
54:36blueberries in the middle of winter
54:37generally speaking right so you'll
54:39you'll be fine for a few weeks um and
54:42then there's that cheat day and cheat
54:43day anything goes the amount of damage
54:45you can do on cheat day is pretty
54:46limited and there are ways you can
54:48mitigate that there's a whole chapter
54:50called damage control in the 4our body
54:53but focusing just on that diet and
54:55having one one day off where you know
54:58you can do anything means when you are
55:00controlling yourself for those six days
55:02of the week you're not giving up your
55:05favorite foods forever you can even keep
55:07a list of all things you want to eat on
55:08cheap day and then you have free license
55:10to eat on cheap day and that provides
55:14you with a release valve so that you can
55:17build in the cheating as opposed to
55:19having it occur as a failure point there
55:22are a handful of other things there if
55:24you have Domino Foods in the house for
55:25instance
55:27if you eat a lot of almonds or mixed
55:29nuts and you're just going to sit there
55:31compulsively eating them while you're
55:32sitting at your laptop don't have what I
55:35call dominoe Foods in the house which
55:36are going to really create some portion
55:39control issues but broadly speaking
55:41don't drink calories don't e things that
55:42are white take from three categories and
55:45build your meals out and those are the
55:46meals that you follow do not eat fruit
55:50or fructose and then cheat one day a
55:53week and Saturday is a nice day or cheat
55:55day for most folks FKS and uh just to
55:58answer some questions people are going
55:59to have no that doesn't mean 24 hours
56:01that you can spread out over two days
56:03that will actually say you back but the
56:05amount of fat that you can store in a
56:09handful of sittings over 24 hours which
56:13legitimately is more like 12 to 18 hours
56:16pretty limited um so that's slow grab
56:19diet great thank you for that I also
56:22want to ask is it okay to take the day
56:26after cheat day and fast or do one meal
56:30that day when I followed the Slow Carb
56:32Diet I benefited from it tremendously
56:34lost fat gained muscle tons of energy
56:36sleeping great uh required less caffeine
56:40all sorts of wonderful things stable
56:41blood sugar I felt so so good um really
56:44enjoyed the cheat days I really really
56:46enjoyed the cheat days so much fun um at
56:48some point there's some gastric distress
56:50that comes from you know not regulating
56:52intake um which led me to not want to
56:55eat the the next day MH um so I tended
56:58to do the cheat days on Sunday in my
57:01case um and then I would fast most of
57:03Monday just water black coffee tea and
57:06then I might have a small meal in the
57:08evening and then by Tuesday I was back
57:09on the Slow Carb died does that seem
57:11like a um an uh sort of a detrimental
57:15deviation from the from the plan I think
57:19that if that is what works for you then
57:21that is what works for you so this is
57:23this this the Slow Carb Diet template
57:25for me is a starting point
57:27and generally I'll say I think this is
57:29from Picasso right it's like learn the
57:31rules as an amateur so you can break
57:33them as a professional but it's like I
57:35recommend most people kind of stick with
57:37the format for a handful of weeks and
57:42measure the results right there so there
57:43are guidelines for how to measure the
57:46the scale is a bit of a blunt instrument
57:48so there are other ways but if you're
57:50extremely overweight you can just use
57:52the scale and fasting I think is fine or
57:56just ratcheting back your chloric
57:58consumption
57:59significantly uh and what happens over
58:01time for most people also is for the
58:04first say four weeks on cheat day you're
58:06going to go completely insane and I
58:10remember I was doing something much
58:12stricter called the cyclical ketogenic
58:14diet which is a whole separate thing
58:17it's much more limiting in terms of what
58:20you can eat but I was training for
58:22ultimately the Nationals in Chinese
58:24kickboxing this was happening in 99
58:26so I was training super hard I was
58:28following a cyclical ketogenic diet
58:30which meant I could eat very few things
58:32but I did have this one cheat day and I
58:35would do a glycogen depletion workout
58:36beforehand which is one of the things
58:38you can do to limit the damage on cheat
58:40day do a glycogen depletion workout
58:42beforehand and then I would just go
58:45crazy I mean I would drive to like
58:47crispy K cream by 12 donuts and they
58:49would be gone by the time I got home and
58:51it wasn't an hour away it was like a
58:5210-minute Drive Donuts would be gone
58:54right I would go to Safeway and I would
58:56buy a bag of those funsize Snickers and
59:00that would be just a tiny portion of my
59:02calor stuff for you huh a lot of sweet
59:05stuff I also did the Savory stuff I mean
59:07I had my favorites nothing was safe
59:09Pizza nothing was safe nothing was safe
59:12my my Paws got into everything and then
59:15over time because the next day you're
59:16going to feel like you got hit by a
59:18diabetic dump
59:20truck you start ratcheting back and
59:22you're like okay maybe I don't need to
59:24do that maybe cheat day will just be two
59:26meals or maybe cheat day will just be
59:28like the pastries in the morning with
59:29the coffee and you start to regulate a
59:33bit generally you don't have to but over
59:36time you generally will and I think
59:40after you've followed it to the tea just
59:42follow the Commandments for say four to
59:44eight weeks then you can certainly
59:46deviate and I'm not saying if you're not
59:48hungry don't eat however in many cases
59:51people
59:52have they have acclimated to not eat
59:56eating in the morning and then they end
59:58up overeating later in the day if you
1:00:00have that habit right if you're
1:00:02consuming 50% of your calories or more
1:00:04at
1:00:05dinner and you want to lose body fat I
1:00:09would say get some cottage cheese or
1:00:12something that will give you 30 grams
1:00:15easily in the morning worst case
1:00:16scenario use a protein of some type just
1:00:19don't make it hypercaloric you mean
1:00:21powdered protein like could be powdered
1:00:23way powdered way protein whole food is
1:00:25going to do a lot more MH and no calorie
1:00:28counting correct no calorie counting
1:00:31tends to be self-limiting when you're
1:00:32eating this much fiber and this much
1:00:35protein it tends to be very
1:00:36self-limiting what you'll want to
1:00:39consume and what you can consume yeah
1:00:41once again I had great experiences with
1:00:43slow carb diet and um I'm going to go
1:00:45back on yeah and nobody and uh nobody
1:00:48needs to buy anything to figure it out
1:00:50if you just search on tim. blog slow
1:00:52carb diet there you'll get everything
1:00:54that you need to get started no purchase
1:00:58necessary well it works very very well
1:01:00I'll say that and it's very
1:01:01straightforward to follow and it does
1:01:03include the the notorious uh cheat day
1:01:06uh Infamous cheat day um uh and it can
1:01:10be done um on a on a very reasonable
1:01:13budget and so if people want to learn
1:01:15more about that they should go to Tim's
1:01:16blog on 4our uh um 4our body and um slow
1:01:20carb diet we'll provide a link but it's
1:01:22you know I think it's worth highlighting
1:01:24again just how effective that is you
1:01:26know as you pointed out thousands and
1:01:27thousands of people um using it to great
1:01:30success some of whom were um quite obese
1:01:34and um yeah any updates on those folks
1:01:36are they still keeping the weight off I
1:01:37would like to do a followup uh it's I
1:01:41think with diets in
1:01:43general there's a lot of reversion to
1:01:45the mean you know regression to the mean
1:01:47so I would expect that that some have
1:01:49kept it off and some have not that would
1:01:50be true of I think every possible diet
1:01:53especially for people who are overcoming
1:01:55beh avoral inertia of having gained
1:01:57hundreds of pounds but uh I'd like to do
1:02:00some followup what was fun about the
1:02:01post I put together called how to lose
1:02:03100 pounds on the Slow Carb Diet we had
1:02:06we profiled say four or five people but
1:02:09there were dozens and dozens and dozens
1:02:11and dozens and this was a very long time
1:02:14ago so I would say
1:02:17that a long-term followup would be super
1:02:20interesting and we did at one point
1:02:22track several thousand people through a
1:02:25platform of the time I think it was
1:02:27coach.me as they follow the Sol carb
1:02:29diet for the first four to 12 weeks and
1:02:32that was fascinating because I want the
1:02:33data and I'm happy to be proven
1:02:36incorrect with any of my assumptions I
1:02:38mean I I don't view that as a failure me
1:02:40I view that as as a huge net gain and uh
1:02:45it has a very high adherence rate so I I
1:02:48pay attention to not just is something
1:02:50effective does it get you the outcome
1:02:52you want not only is it efficient from a
1:02:55Time and resource perspective but how
1:02:58high is the adherence rate right so if
1:03:00you take a random sampling of a thousand
1:03:02people from the US across socioeconomic
1:03:04classes Etc how many people practically
1:03:08speaking will be able to or willing to
1:03:10follow this for say an eight-week period
1:03:12of time or four-week period of time and
1:03:15I try to optimize for the widest
1:03:17adherence because I know the the sil CB
1:03:19I people come on they're like what but
1:03:21what about intermittent fasting what
1:03:22about this and what about endurance
1:03:23athletes I'm like this is not for
1:03:25everybody in cases it just happens to be
1:03:27a good default diet with a high
1:03:29adherence rate and like you said it's
1:03:31very inexpensive it can be followed very
1:03:33very inexpensively could sorry to
1:03:35interrupt you one thing that I really
1:03:36like about it is that um many uh
1:03:40variants on caloric restriction which is
1:03:43because laws of thermodynamics
1:03:45definitely apply folks we're not we're
1:03:46not trying to say they don't um but one
1:03:50of the issues with a lot of things
1:03:51including intermittent fasting which I
1:03:53sort of do some variant of because I'm
1:03:54not really hungry to eat until about
1:03:5611:00 I like to train in the morning if
1:03:57I can
1:03:58Etc is that they can sometimes prevent
1:04:02best performance in terms of especially
1:04:04resistance training high-intensity
1:04:05resistance training so very low carb
1:04:07diets I've tried them um even if you're
1:04:10paying attention to you know other ways
1:04:12to restock glycogen it performance drops
1:04:14off whereas a slow carb diet I feel like
1:04:16I can think I can work I can exercise I
1:04:19can sleep like everything just works
1:04:21well but there's one thing in it that I
1:04:22wanted to raise that I when I heard this
1:04:24I thought there's no way this is true
1:04:26which was uh making sure that you get 30
1:04:29or so grams of protein within 30 minutes
1:04:31of waking yeah and I thought how can
1:04:33that be like how can adding protein
1:04:35early in the day actually make a
1:04:36difference and it really did work I was
1:04:38I still track my numbers so in terms of
1:04:40dropping body fat percentage increasing
1:04:42muscle it really does work now whether
1:04:44or not that's simply because it's
1:04:45offsetting food intake that I would have
1:04:48um food that I would have taken in later
1:04:50in the day I don't know I I don't I'm
1:04:52not going to make myself my own control
1:04:53experiment to the point that I drive
1:04:55myself crazy yeah but um it really does
1:04:57work quite well um to get past sticking
1:05:00points to just get that 30 g of protein
1:05:02early so violate the the uh um Tim
1:05:05restricted feeding component
1:05:06deliberately with some protein in the
1:05:07morning y then still train and do all
1:05:10the other things and you know carry on
1:05:12as usual and it's just so it seems so
1:05:14peculiar like eating more and and losing
1:05:16body fat but it works yeah it's
1:05:19counterintuitive and a lot of approaches
1:05:22can work for a lot of different people
1:05:24right to State the OB
1:05:26but this particular aspect of this low
1:05:28carb diet is helpful for let's just say
1:05:32the majority of the people in that
1:05:34thousand person sample I was talking
1:05:36about the hypothetical Pole from
1:05:38different parts of say the us or
1:05:40anywhere because it it it seems to help
1:05:43with a few things first there's just the
1:05:46thermic effect of food and for protein
1:05:48there's a greater thermic effect you
1:05:51also have and I think there's there's
1:05:52decent at the time there was decent
1:05:54literature to support this so I don't
1:05:56know if it's changed that the protein
1:05:59intake along those lines has an appetite
1:06:02suppressing effect so the The Net Daily
1:06:06calories consumed tends to be less when
1:06:09someone has a higher protein meal
1:06:10earlier in the day and last but not
1:06:14least I will say one of the risks and
1:06:16there are many people who execute well
1:06:18on this but you have to be very
1:06:19meticulous which is true of the
1:06:20ketogenic diet as well you can get
1:06:22yourself into a lot of trouble if you do
1:06:24it 60% right or 70% right you're really
1:06:28you can get yourself in there massive
1:06:29psoriasis I mean my scalp you know
1:06:32slopping off from like when I'm in
1:06:34ketosis and going like what the hell is
1:06:35going on you're going back on some
1:06:37complex carbohydrates and it going away
1:06:40yeah I exactly I don't need I don't need
1:06:41a randomized control trial to know I
1:06:43simply don't want to run that experiment
1:06:45your scalp yeah so in the case of say
1:06:48Tim restricted feeding some people who
1:06:51do intermittent fasting lose a lot of
1:06:54muscle mass and there are multiple
1:06:57reasons for this I I think people should
1:06:59make use of relatively widely available
1:07:02tools like dexa and so on to ensure that
1:07:05your composition is actually moving the
1:07:07way you think it's moving uh make sure
1:07:09you standardize your hydration for that
1:07:11as well as time of day just Pro tip
1:07:14that's true for blood tests as well
1:07:16but it seems to get net net better
1:07:20effects than trying to teach people how
1:07:22to fast effectively which you can do and
1:07:24we can talk about fasting that's
1:07:26something that was not included in the
1:07:274-Hour Body that were I to rewrite it
1:07:30today I would include a section and
1:07:31there was a bit in tools of Titans to
1:07:34address that on more extended fasts
1:07:37let's just call it three to 7 day fasts
1:07:39uh so that's an area that's of of great
1:07:42interest to me as is ketosis and
1:07:43metabolic Psychiatry I'll Chris Palmer
1:07:47yeah who we both know incredible I mean
1:07:49what he's what the Awakening that he's
1:07:53uh created through his book and going on
1:07:55your podcast my podcast and others and
1:07:57and you know letting people be aware
1:08:00that changes in diet can impact mental
1:08:03health so I think in two three years
1:08:05it's going to be a duh and we're not
1:08:07just talking about the difference
1:08:08between you know um slamming back
1:08:10horrible Foods horrible for US Foods
1:08:13versus eating really clean I mean really
1:08:16specific diet protocols to treat mental
1:08:18health incredible yeah super exciting so
1:08:21that's that's one of the things that I'm
1:08:22paying a lot of attention to right now
1:08:23they're a handful in that r
1:08:26within the just say the the interplay of
1:08:29Mind and Body since The cartisian
1:08:32Duality and separation of this too makes
1:08:34no sense from a biological standpoint so
1:08:37um that's that's something that
1:08:38certainly captured my attention and I
1:08:40paid a lot of attention to even as far
1:08:42back as early
1:08:442000s uh for mental health and just
1:08:47cognitive performance I'd like to take a
1:08:49quick break and thank our sponsor insid
1:08:51tracker insid tracker is a personalized
1:08:53nutrition platform that analyzes data
1:08:55from your blood and DNA to help you
1:08:57better understand your body and help you
1:08:59reach your health goals I've long been a
1:09:01believer in getting regular blood work
1:09:03done for the simple reason that many of
1:09:05the factors that impact your immediate
1:09:06and long-term Health can only be
1:09:08assessed with a quality blood test the
1:09:10problem with a lot of blood in DNA tests
1:09:12out there however is that they'll give
1:09:14you information about certain lipid
1:09:15markers or hormone markers but no
1:09:18information about what to do with all of
1:09:20that data inside tracker makes it very
1:09:22easy to look at your levels of hormones
1:09:23metabolic factors lipids ET ET and then
1:09:26to assess what sorts of Behavioral
1:09:28nutritional supplementation or perhaps
1:09:30other interventions you might want to
1:09:31use in order to bring those numbers into
1:09:33the ranges that are optimal for your
1:09:35health for this week only the week of
1:09:37June 19th 2023 insid tracker is offering
1:09:40a buy one get one free on their ultimate
1:09:42plan this is their best discount of the
1:09:44year you can get this offer by going to
1:09:46insidetracker
1:09:48docomo again that's insidetracker
1:09:52docomo thanks for uh revisiting some of
1:09:55the 4-Hour Body and slow carb diet and
1:09:57elaborating on um some of the process
1:10:00that went into that and I think uh
1:10:02creators of all kinds thinkers of all
1:10:04kinds and people who are interested in
1:10:05the contents of the 4our body are going
1:10:08to be uh very grateful for that
1:10:09information I certainly am fascinated by
1:10:12your process um one of the things that
1:10:14you mentioned along the lines of process
1:10:16was you know the power of places and
1:10:20where one happens to live I think
1:10:21there's a essay by Paul Graham that
1:10:24talks about this it's a little outdated
1:10:27um you know and it talks about the
1:10:29messages that you um the tacit messages
1:10:31of being in certain cities I think it
1:10:33was you know like Boston you're not
1:10:35smart enough um uh what was it it was
1:10:39New York uh you're not powerful enough
1:10:42uh and not you I just thinking and um or
1:10:45you should be more powerful is the
1:10:46message like the tcid message um Los
1:10:49Angeles um what you're what you're doing
1:10:52people aren't paying attention paying
1:10:54enough attention to it like that
1:10:56messages these are stereotypes about
1:10:58cities certainly cities change um the
1:11:00role of places is an interesting one
1:11:02like you know you mentioned you know
1:11:04small gathering Kevin Kelly's house
1:11:06Quantified Self and I think for people
1:11:08who don't know people like that right um
1:11:12maybe we could get your thoughts on you
1:11:14know how would one think about where to
1:11:17live and and maybe even curating their
1:11:19own Gatherings useful Gatherings because
1:11:22it's not that uh I have to imagine it's
1:11:23not that you guys sat back and like I'm
1:11:25Tim Ferris he's like I'm Kevin Kelly
1:11:27let's have a gathering so we can talk
1:11:28about it in a few years on a podcast
1:11:31this stuff happens MH that word you know
1:11:34it's dangerous word organically um when
1:11:37people who have common interest decide
1:11:39to get together and talk and listen and
1:11:42brainstorm and I'm yet to do that in a
1:11:46you know with good people and not have
1:11:49something really incredible come out of
1:11:51it not necessarily that day yeah but
1:11:53looking five years looking back five
1:11:54years later and just God that was really
1:11:56worthwhile totally
1:11:58yeah few thoughts in no particular order
1:12:00I would say the first is it depends my
1:12:03recommendations depend a lot on where
1:12:05you are in the Arc of your career in
1:12:07life if you are in full
1:12:12growth hyperdrive mode and you are
1:12:15trying
1:12:16to build both yourself and your
1:12:20capabilities in a very concentrated way
1:12:22where you're not necessarily focused on
1:12:24family maybe have fewer
1:12:27obligations then if you're serious I
1:12:30think many people should consider moving
1:12:33to an area of high density for a period
1:12:36of time it could be three months it
1:12:38could be six months could be longer but
1:12:42putting yourself in a New York or an LA
1:12:45or San Francisco or Chicago or as new
1:12:50places develop I'll I'll give you one
1:12:52you might not expect say in Ottawa
1:12:54Canada where Shopify is based and the
1:12:57presence and growth of Shopify has
1:13:00spawned an entire ecosystem of startups
1:13:03so there may be options outside of the
1:13:05usual cast of characters Pittsburgh and
1:13:08dualingo similar effect so there are
1:13:11more options than people might recognize
1:13:14but taking a journey and placing
1:13:19yourself in a place where you can be in
1:13:22a very active pinball machine where you
1:13:24may interact act
1:13:26serendipitously with many different
1:13:28people from many different worlds I
1:13:29think is is is hard to overstate the
1:13:32value of and my drive and my filtering
1:13:38function let's just say because when I
1:13:40first got to the Bay Area nobody cared
1:13:42about me I was nobody I was driving my
1:13:43mom's used minivan hand me down that had
1:13:46the seats stolen out of the back it
1:13:47Terri were you in the South Bay I was I
1:13:50was working in San Jose yeah I mean no
1:13:53disrespect to San Jose I'm from the
1:13:54South Bay yeah but there's a there's a
1:13:57bleakness to the South there is there is
1:13:59a little bit of bleakness and then I
1:14:00lived across the street in this tiny
1:14:02apartment lived across street from the
1:14:03Jack in the Box in Mountain View so it's
1:14:05not like I was strolling onto the big
1:14:07stage and just blowing people away oh I
1:14:10I I I grew up right near Mountain View
1:14:12I'm very familiar probably skated the
1:14:14curbs at that Jack did you train at the
1:14:16Golds Gym in off rang store did actually
1:14:19amazing that was a great gym that was a
1:14:20great gym that was a great gym I don't
1:14:21think it's still there I'll go there
1:14:23super late before my writing sessions
1:14:25okay and it had the benefit of being
1:14:27open really really late and wow rang St
1:14:30haven't thought about that in a long
1:14:31time so the point is I also started
1:14:34where a lot of people are starting and
1:14:37what did I do I put myself in a high
1:14:40density environment next what did I do
1:14:43knowing no one I started to
1:14:45volunteer at events where they had
1:14:48interesting speakers and interesting
1:14:51people coming to hear those speakers so
1:14:53I put myself in Silicon Valley and then
1:14:55then I began volunteering for groups
1:14:57like svas I don't know if it exists
1:14:59anymore the Silicon Valley Association
1:15:01of startup entrepreneurs I think it was
1:15:04Tai the indust entrepreneur which is a
1:15:06very sort of Indian or
1:15:08indian-american focused organization
1:15:10that does a lot in the realm of
1:15:13startups and I would carry water I would
1:15:15take out garbage I would check name
1:15:17badges I would check people in nothing
1:15:20was too low for me and I'll give you
1:15:23guys a tip that will be obvious to some
1:15:26but nonobvious to many when you're are
1:15:29volunteering a lot of folks who
1:15:31volunteer do the absolute bare minimum
1:15:34because they are not getting paid this
1:15:36is not going to get you noticed but it
1:15:39sets a very low bar so that if you
1:15:41volunteer at these events and someone's
1:15:43dropping the ball or there's something
1:15:45happening that needs fixing and you just
1:15:47proactively do it the producers of these
1:15:49events will notice you and this is what
1:15:52happened over time over a few months and
1:15:55then I got invited to join in on
1:15:57meetings that were planning future
1:15:58events and I eventually got to the point
1:16:00where I was recruiting speakers and able
1:16:03to set the agenda for an entire main
1:16:05event and then that's how I got to know
1:16:08say Jack Canfield who is the co-creator
1:16:11of Chicken Soup for the Soul and many
1:16:13others who introduced me to my book
1:16:15agent many many many many years later
1:16:18Jack
1:16:19Campfield but I was a nobody then you
1:16:22have to play the long game but you can
1:16:25be methodical on how you play that and
1:16:28that is one approach just as an example
1:16:30for how to build your network which
1:16:32snowballs over time don't hump every
1:16:35vip's leg within 10 minutes of meeting
1:16:37them play it cool you know and and
1:16:40Gatherings where that person is uh has a
1:16:43lot of Demands on them is the last place
1:16:46you want to do that the way you're going
1:16:47to make yourself saleny to that yeah the
1:16:49way you're going to make yourself
1:16:50memorable with people like that is to be
1:16:52very professional always on time predict
1:16:55what they are going to need or problems
1:16:57they'll run into beforehand and address
1:16:58them before they even think of them and
1:17:01be easy to deal
1:17:02with and people like that high
1:17:06performers notice these things they will
1:17:08make note of it yeah the being easy to
1:17:10work with is something that um I used to
1:17:14tell my graduate students posts I mean
1:17:16it because the opposite of that nobody
1:17:19wants yeah right nobody wants that yeah
1:17:21especially in the beginning like later
1:17:22okay great you're Steve Jobs you want to
1:17:24be difficult
1:17:25here and there or a lot no problem right
1:17:28but in the beginning that can be a real
1:17:31liability you can make up for that if
1:17:33you're the best in the world but in the
1:17:35very beginning you probably won't be uh
1:17:37so try to stack the deck in your favor
1:17:40volunteering is a shortcut and that
1:17:43would be one way of doing it another now
1:17:45especially given the virtual communities
1:17:46that exist so you have subreddits you
1:17:48have online communities you have Twitter
1:17:51groups you have Clubhouse you've got a
1:17:52million different options which can be
1:17:54over overwhelming is Clubhouse still
1:17:56going maybe not I have no idea oh no I
1:17:58don't know I'm not saying it's gone I
1:17:59just I remember during the pandemic
1:18:00there were some Clubhouse Gatherings
1:18:02that hopped on there and but I've sort
1:18:03of forgotten to to get on maybe the the
1:18:06platform Affinity is really fickle which
1:18:08is why I think to the extent possible if
1:18:12you want to build a worldclass and I use
1:18:14that term very deliberately Network in
1:18:17record time just to give you a nice
1:18:19headline I would say focus on the
1:18:22uncrowded channel which is in person
1:18:23it's out of fashion it's out of Vogue
1:18:26going to a conference and actually
1:18:29interacting with humans in the hallway
1:18:31approaching panelists this is another
1:18:33thing that I did I'll give it I'll give
1:18:35another tip so very early on I would go
1:18:37to conferences nobody cared who I was
1:18:39nobody knew who I was fine and I would
1:18:43study the panels let's say I'm going to
1:18:45a big event like South by Southwest and
1:18:48I would this is what I did in 2007 which
1:18:51was just prior to the first book coming
1:18:53out and and I would go to these various
1:18:56in-person events I was focused mostly on
1:18:58events that had uh the Thematic focus of
1:19:02blogs we could come back to that but
1:19:03blogs were what podcasts were a few
1:19:06years ago right they drove incredible
1:19:08traffic but they were undervalued by
1:19:10mainstream media undervalued by
1:19:12mainstream Publishers Etc which meant
1:19:14there was an Arbitrage opportunity in a
1:19:17way and I would pick say a handful of
1:19:22panels with topics I thought were super
1:19:24interesting
1:19:25and then the panel would end and what
1:19:27would happen the panelists would get
1:19:29rushed by various folks because many of
1:19:32them were wellknown who was not getting
1:19:34rushed the moderator I would go straight
1:19:37to the moderator and I would talk to the
1:19:39moderator I'd thank them for the panel
1:19:40i' would be very genuine none of it was
1:19:42made up and talk to them for a bit they
1:19:44would generally ask why I was there what
1:19:47I was interested in I would mention
1:19:49whatever that happened to be in this
1:19:50case it was I'm finishing my first book
1:19:52or I had my first book coming out soon
1:19:53I'm here to hopefully meet people uh who
1:19:56are involved with a or C and then if we
1:19:59hit it off which was not true every time
1:20:01but if it seemed to be going well I
1:20:03would say is I don't know anyone
1:20:05here I'm really sort of orphaned here
1:20:08making my way through uh this entire
1:20:12event is there anyone else here you
1:20:13think I would get along with who maybe I
1:20:15could buy a drink or coffee and vast
1:20:18majority of the time they like oh yeah
1:20:19you should meet so and so and then I get
1:20:22the introduction and then I would meet
1:20:23that person I would have a genuine
1:20:26interaction with that person and if it
1:20:28made sense if things were going well I'd
1:20:30do the same thing is there anybody else
1:20:33here you think I should just say hi to
1:20:34and I get along with not who I can ask
1:20:37for
1:20:38something and that wasn't deception I
1:20:40was being honest like someone I could
1:20:43actually Vibe with and if so would you
1:20:47mind making the intro yeah sure no
1:20:49problem many of those people are still
1:20:51my
1:20:52friends uh and by being surgical in that
1:20:56way not trying to gather business cards
1:20:59to use a really
1:21:01Antiquated metaphor people still hand
1:21:03them out yeah people still hand them out
1:21:04I guess depends on where you are
1:21:05especially like Boston but uh if if
1:21:08rather than trying to collect people as
1:21:11Pokemon
1:21:13cards developing say five three to five
1:21:18deeper relationships through longer
1:21:20conversations at an
1:21:22event that is what directly LED
1:21:24ultimately to the hockey stick for the
1:21:274our work week within Tech within
1:21:30specifically San Francisco um so those
1:21:32be a few approaches for for building
1:21:34your network when you don't have the
1:21:38ability to just walk up to say Kevin
1:21:39Kelly and have a conversation that came
1:21:41over time yeah whether or not it's um
1:21:45Health practices or uh nutritional
1:21:48practices or at meetings seems you're
1:21:52oriented toward the crowded but very
1:21:56interesting people in spaces MH but the
1:21:59key word there I think is uncrowded and
1:22:02of course the other key word is
1:22:03interesting right I mean it's not like
1:22:05you're standing in the parking lot
1:22:06talking to whoever happens to be there
1:22:08although that can be interesting right
1:22:09there's a Serendipity there and you know
1:22:11there's always um things to learn from
1:22:13people but in terms of uh career
1:22:15advancement and and building new ideas
1:22:17and forging for information I'm just
1:22:19struck how you've done that over and
1:22:21over um and again thank you for uh
1:22:24giving giving us some insight into the
1:22:26process please all right here's another
1:22:27one so I think there's a tendency among
1:22:31people who want to develop their
1:22:33networks or their
1:22:36relationships to be star not to
1:22:38get too technical but that's a technical
1:22:40term yeah yeah and they want to tell
1:22:43other people they are friends with
1:22:45someone more than they want to develop
1:22:47skills or learn from someone this puts
1:22:49you in a very disadvantaged position
1:22:52because then that means all right you
1:22:54want become friends with Elon Musk good
1:22:56luck or you want to become friends with
1:22:58this a-lister celebrity who everyone
1:23:01else wants to meet good luck it's going
1:23:04to be a crowded bloody path to get there
1:23:08and by the way they've also certainly
1:23:10developed really attuned defenses
1:23:13against people like you so it's G to be
1:23:16hard on the they have staff to prevent
1:23:19they have a fance of protectors to
1:23:22prevent you from ever getting to that
1:23:23person on on the other hand if you're
1:23:25approaching it from the standpoint of
1:23:26developing skills learning and actually
1:23:29becoming potential friends with someone
1:23:32give you an example you could go after
1:23:35you want to become better
1:23:37at boxing let's just make that up all
1:23:41right maybe not the greatest example
1:23:43skiing would be another one but let's
1:23:45let's stick with boxing just because of
1:23:47the way I'll explain it if you wanted to
1:23:49say get personalized lessons from Floyd
1:23:52Mayweather it can happen okay let's go
1:23:55then maybe a step down out of the pro
1:23:57ranks to gold medalist okay if it's a
1:24:00brand new gold medalist let's just say
1:24:01like Oscar De La Hoya when he was really
1:24:03The Golden Boy and it just thrashed
1:24:05everyone still going to be hard what
1:24:07about the silver medalist who just had a
1:24:09bad day when he had that last bout
1:24:12against Oscar De La Hoya potentially
1:24:14right from a technical
1:24:16perspective from a personal connection
1:24:19perspective you may have more in common
1:24:20with that person or bronze medalist and
1:24:22they can get you 70 809 0% of the way
1:24:25there and by the way you probably don't
1:24:27have the physical attributes to make it
1:24:28to 100% anyway if you're coming to it
1:24:31this late
1:24:33and you could get in many cases
1:24:36one-on-one lessons whether in person or
1:24:40virtually with someone who is of that
1:24:42caliber they're in the same front of the
1:24:45pack as the names I just mentioned maybe
1:24:48not as famous 100 bucks 200 bucks per
1:24:52hour for a lot of people that is Within
1:24:55Reach yeah I'm not sure what the value
1:24:57of saying one knows somebody very famous
1:25:02is it's just never been something that
1:25:04I've oriented to it's a common
1:25:05orientation though yeah and uh I think
1:25:08that's true for a lot of things like
1:25:09many people use say psychedelics because
1:25:11they want to tell other people the story
1:25:14that they have of doing psychedelics
1:25:17right they're not doing it intrinsically
1:25:19for what they hope to get out of that
1:25:21experience maybe there's part of them
1:25:23but it's more more the social signaling
1:25:25and validation they get when they
1:25:27project that out at a group dinner into
1:25:29a story that they can tell and that's
1:25:31true for many things so one of the
1:25:33questions I ask myself with all sorts of
1:25:35things if I could never talk about this
1:25:37would I do it what a what a great great
1:25:41right thing to think about right like if
1:25:43I could if I could have let's just say
1:25:45we didn't know each other and I was like
1:25:46okay I'm earlier in my career let's
1:25:49apply some constraints so I'm not where
1:25:51I am I still want to do abnc in the
1:25:53public eye maybe I want to build a
1:25:55podcast
1:25:56whoever if I could meet with you but I
1:25:58could never tell a soul would I do it I
1:26:00don't know would you I would I would I
1:26:04would too but but for a lot of folks if
1:26:06they meaning I'd meet with you I'm not
1:26:07saying I'd meet with me by the
1:26:10way I'd mean with me you know the
1:26:13believe me I meet with me all the time
1:26:14and sometimes it's pretty unpleasant
1:26:16yeah and and that can be applied to all
1:26:17sorts of things right it's like and it's
1:26:19it's a useful question because I as
1:26:20myself this for examining your
1:26:23motivations and I'm not saying one
1:26:25motivation is always better than another
1:26:27but it's it's you should at least be
1:26:29aware of your driving motivations
1:26:31because you can end up playing games
1:26:33you're not even aware you're playing and
1:26:34that's how you end up I think getting
1:26:36into a lot of trouble in life one of the
1:26:38ways so that would be a question I might
1:26:41apply I apply other questions like
1:26:42there's a great question uh that Seth
1:26:45Goden applies who really I admire
1:26:47tremendously and has built an
1:26:51incredibly unorthodox unique life for
1:26:54himself and his family he's he he's
1:26:56zigged when everyone would expect him to
1:26:58zag and I I and he always has a
1:27:00defensible logic behind it and much like
1:27:03Derek cers but most people have probably
1:27:06heard the hypothetical question like
1:27:08what would you do if you knew you
1:27:09couldn't fail right or what would you do
1:27:11if you couldn't fail and Seth turns that
1:27:14around I think that's a good question
1:27:16but he turns around he said what would
1:27:17you do if you knew you were going to
1:27:20fail in terms of identifying what you
1:27:22would do for the process
1:27:25right what would you do if you knew it
1:27:27was going to fail okay you're
1:27:28considering these five different
1:27:29projects let's say they're all going to
1:27:30fail but you still have to choose one of
1:27:31the five which would you choose yeah
1:27:34that's a great question um much harder
1:27:38to answer yeah and you know at the same
1:27:40time I'm called back to uh when I was a
1:27:44graduate student and still now with the
1:27:46podcast uh I have this um litmus test um
1:27:50which is you know is the experiment that
1:27:52I'm working on the one that I want to be
1:27:55working on most is the podcast that I'm
1:27:57working on the one that I want to be
1:27:58working on most I mean there's truly no
1:28:00other podcast I'd rather be having today
1:28:01than this one right and the moment I'm
1:28:03starting to think oh I wish I was doing
1:28:05that thing over there I realize I'm off
1:28:07Target I'm off Target and um uh I think
1:28:11that asking really good questions is
1:28:14something clearly that you're very good
1:28:15at and uh getting a little bit deeper
1:28:17into your process around that do you
1:28:19write those things down like is there a
1:28:21Notebook someplace in the Kingdom of uh
1:28:24of Tim Ferris in Austin or elsewhere um
1:28:27that says you know those questions that
1:28:30that essentially those questions are
1:28:32written are they yeah I collect I I
1:28:34literally have a document with questions
1:28:36that I've gathered from Seth printed out
1:28:38and at the Airbnb where I'm staying here
1:28:40so you brought it with you I printed it
1:28:43out here and then I went through and I
1:28:44read it last night and I was
1:28:45highlighting questions from past
1:28:48interviews I've had with him on my
1:28:49podcast to revisit his questions so I I
1:28:53was literally doing that last last night
1:28:54over dinner and I collect questions I
1:28:57collect questions if I am reading a
1:28:59magazine and I come across a good
1:29:01question I take take a photo or I
1:29:03capture it somehow in notes or in
1:29:05Evernote which I know is kind of
1:29:06oldfashioned these days but I've used it
1:29:08for everything so the critical mass is
1:29:10beyond
1:29:11enormous and I do collect and revisit
1:29:15these things I capture them in journals
1:29:17as well but I I absolutely capture good
1:29:20questions when I find them questions are
1:29:22so powerful for the brain I don't want
1:29:24to go into this in too much detail
1:29:26because I have a lot more questions for
1:29:27you but uh we just wrapped a series on
1:29:30Mental Health um that will come out
1:29:32later this year with Paul kti and he um
1:29:34is brilliant as we both know and uh does
1:29:37truly important work and um and he
1:29:39pointed to the value of asking really
1:29:42good questions about oneself and the
1:29:45because of the way that questions that
1:29:49are really directed at self-inquiry ceue
1:29:51up the subconscious so you asked the
1:29:53question question and unlike a statement
1:29:55or a meme um the brain works with that
1:29:59in in the days and hours after asking
1:30:01the question in ways that um simple
1:30:03declarative statements probably don't
1:30:06ping the system the same way which is
1:30:08probably why we can see so many points
1:30:11of wisdom and Truth everywhere and it
1:30:13doesn't necessarily transform us but
1:30:14asking really good questions really does
1:30:16seem to transform us yeah there there's
1:30:20uh I think judging people by their
1:30:23questions is
1:30:24it's also a shortcut to assessing and
1:30:27learning a lot about how someone
1:30:29functions and what makes them tick I
1:30:32think it was volter who said you know
1:30:33judge a man by his questions not by his
1:30:35answers something along those lines but
1:30:37when in doubt attribute to volter it
1:30:39sounds good does sound good and I I
1:30:41think about this a lot I do think about
1:30:43the questions and I refine the questions
1:30:46that I ask myself especially while
1:30:48journaling because it's easier to
1:30:51cross-examine and stress test your own
1:30:54certainty and beliefs when they are
1:30:57captured on
1:30:58paper or digitally on a laptop for
1:31:03instance so I I do routinely revisit
1:31:07certain questions that I found helpful
1:31:10over time I mean one that people can
1:31:11play with is with whatever is really
1:31:15causing you consternation or stress at
1:31:17the moment some kind of decision a
1:31:20relationship business could be anything
1:31:23just what might this this look like if
1:31:24it were easy right what might this look
1:31:27like if it were easy if it had to be
1:31:29easy if that were possible what might it
1:31:31look like and that could apply to
1:31:33anything it could apply to anything you
1:31:35know could apply to could apply to
1:31:36Fitness it's like look if you do really
1:31:38intense kettle bell swings twice a week
1:31:42with proper weight and load and time
1:31:43under tension and you do push-ups a few
1:31:47times a week and handle a couple of
1:31:49other elements you can get in pretty
1:31:52good shape it's so simple
1:31:55but hits a lot I mean hits your entire
1:31:57posterior chain okay fine do some
1:31:59push-ups and some core work but if
1:32:02you're not exercising at all because
1:32:04you've made the assumption that it's
1:32:07four hours five hours a week rather than
1:32:11completely remove that
1:32:14objective and call it just impractical
1:32:19can you ratchet down the scale how far
1:32:21can you ratchet down the scale until you
1:32:23have no excuses right that would just be
1:32:26one one example language learning Tech
1:32:29investing applies to everything making
1:32:32life easier is something that definitely
1:32:34gets my vote yeah making it easier and
1:32:36making it more
1:32:37elegant right the more pieces in your
1:32:40life you have floating around the more
1:32:41contacts the more extraneous loose
1:32:43connections the harder your life is
1:32:45going to be the cognitive overload or
1:32:48overhead is really high so I'm always
1:32:51looking for maybe like Japanese a flower
1:32:54arranging it's like okay how how many
1:32:56pieces can I remove while still like
1:32:58maintaining the essence of what I'm
1:32:59trying to achieve you and Rick Ruben man
1:33:02I'm telling you you know two people I am
1:33:04fortunate enough to know personally and
1:33:06that I have tremendous respect for and
1:33:07you know the work and uh is self-evident
1:33:11you know it's really remarkable so uh
1:33:14rewind that and listen to that segment
1:33:16right there folks I'm telling you I've
1:33:18worked hard to apply it because it's not
1:33:20my default and boy does it make a
1:33:22significant Improvement to simplify
1:33:25simplify simplify take some thought and
1:33:27question asking it's like you just can't
1:33:28delete things at random so you get down
1:33:30to some fixed number but um I'd like to
1:33:33ask you about another area where you
1:33:36really have seemed to see around corners
1:33:40and this is one that actually carried
1:33:43with it significant risk um not
1:33:45necessarily risk to health and to life
1:33:48but risk in terms of outside perceptions
1:33:51and that's psychedelics MH you know I've
1:33:54substantially changed my view on this uh
1:33:57we don't need to go into my former
1:33:58stance on I talked about that when you
1:34:00were gracious enough to host me on your
1:34:02podcast for a second time uh done some
1:34:04psychedelics recreationally as a kid it
1:34:06was correlated with um not so great
1:34:08times in my life stayed away from them
1:34:09then eventually Revisited MDMA in
1:34:12particular from a therapeutic standpoint
1:34:13found tremendous benefit again
1:34:15therapeutically with a medical doctor
1:34:17again these drugs are illegal uh soon to
1:34:21change perhaps hopefully and we'll talk
1:34:23about that but uh it's becoming clear
1:34:27from the controlled Studies by Robin
1:34:30Carter Harris uh there are many others
1:34:33okay Nolan Williams others um that these
1:34:36drugs have enormous potential to help
1:34:39relieve depression trauma uh help people
1:34:43explore their psyche their mind for sake
1:34:46of feeling better doing better in the
1:34:47world for leaning into life not tune in
1:34:49drop out but um you know to really lean
1:34:53into life with more purpose and more
1:34:55satisfaction in some cases they've
1:34:56really have saved lives I think um what
1:35:01was your mindset around psychedelics
1:35:03when you first started exploring them
1:35:06what led you to overcome the inevitable
1:35:10you know fear Gap there uh because you
1:35:13do seem like somebody who takes value in
1:35:16your health right you're not Wreckless
1:35:18you may have been more adventurous in
1:35:20the past with things like I hate the
1:35:22word but biohacking and self
1:35:23experimentation than you are now but but
1:35:25you obviously have some
1:35:26self-preservation mechanism intact we
1:35:28learn we learn we learn um what was your
1:35:31mindset around it at the time and then I
1:35:33want to get to what you've learned from
1:35:35it um and frankly the
1:35:38tremendous efforts that you've put that
1:35:41are now translating to tremendous value
1:35:43for really millions of people and
1:35:45ultimately I think it's going to be
1:35:46billions of people um by establishing
1:35:50funding for the pioneering research in
1:35:52this area helping to promote the
1:35:54movement of these compounds from illegal
1:35:57to legal in the therapeutic setting so
1:36:00on and so on so take us back to um your
1:36:04first thoughtful exploration of
1:36:06psychedelics what would that look like
1:36:07you're like oh mushrooms all eat them
1:36:10was that it or was it um or or was it a
1:36:14a dedicated uh research process and who'
1:36:17you talk to what was it all
1:36:19about so let's go way back to my grad
1:36:24experience and there were many reasons
1:36:27that I ended up going to Princeton I
1:36:29think I was very lucky to get in my SAT
1:36:32scores because I could never finish the
1:36:33damn test I was so much of a
1:36:34perfectionist I get stuck and ended up
1:36:37not doing terribly well but through S
1:36:39and other things ultimately was able to
1:36:41go part of the draw let me interrupt you
1:36:43and just say I think at this point we
1:36:45can say they were lucky to have you well
1:36:47thank you for saying that thank you for
1:36:49saying that great institution and you've
1:36:50done great and you're a a a great um
1:36:54poster on the wall for them yeah really
1:36:57really really yeah I just want to say it
1:36:59because you're not going to and I think
1:37:01it's important that these are great
1:37:02institutions have great minds go through
1:37:04there and you know Einstein went through
1:37:07there and uh and their success rests not
1:37:10just on the Einstein but also on the
1:37:12student body and what they go out into
1:37:13the world and do and not just in the
1:37:15realm of science so really they're
1:37:17they're lucky to have had you yeah thank
1:37:18you Andrew I studied Chinese in a room
1:37:21where Einstein used to teach it's pretty
1:37:22cool t set foot and spend time weekly in
1:37:26a space that was shared by some of these
1:37:28people amazing it really it really gets
1:37:30the imagination firing if we go back to
1:37:34that chapter in my life I was initially
1:37:37a Psychology major with focus on
1:37:40Neuroscience so I want to be a
1:37:42neuroscientist and there are many
1:37:44reasons for that I have
1:37:46neurodegenerative disease on both sides
1:37:48of my family so Parkinson's and
1:37:50Alzheimer's so that was certainly a
1:37:53personal driving interest in terms of
1:37:56looking at mechanisms understanding what
1:37:59Therapeutics existed or did not exist
1:38:02how things were developing in the
1:38:03research and while I was
1:38:06there which later I ended up uh
1:38:09Switching gears and transferring to
1:38:11focus on language acquisition and East
1:38:13Asian studies hence the Chinese that I
1:38:15mentioned earlier and Japanese and
1:38:16Korean but on the Neuroscience side
1:38:19there were a lot of cool breakthroughs
1:38:21also that came out of uh Princeton
1:38:24around that time looking at the amazing
1:38:27discovery of say uh neuronal uh I want
1:38:32to say Regenesis but neurogenesis in the
1:38:34hippocampus remember exactly exactly so
1:38:38there was quite a bit happening at that
1:38:39time I was a subject I loved
1:38:41volunteering for studies just to try to
1:38:43get an inside look at how things were
1:38:46done in some of Daniel Conan's
1:38:49experiments so it was a cool time to be
1:38:51there and
1:38:54within the first two years I want to say
1:38:56I had my first experience recreationally
1:38:59with
1:39:00mushrooms
1:39:01and looking back now I mean I'm
1:39:04horrified by just the lack of control
1:39:07and meaning not control but lack of
1:39:09supervision right I mean the setting the
1:39:11set and setting ended up being fine
1:39:13nothing terrible happened but there were
1:39:15a lot of ways it could have gone
1:39:16sideways but that first experience and I
1:39:19must have consumed in retrospect just a
1:39:21dizzying amount of mushrooms I mean be
1:39:23in excess of five gram it would have
1:39:25been more yeah just knowing what I know
1:39:27now it would have been kids don't do
1:39:29this at all don't do that I'm not I'm
1:39:31not gonna say don't do it at home don't
1:39:33do it at all yeah yeah please I don't
1:39:34think I actually don't think uh the
1:39:37young developing brain should be exposed
1:39:39to psychedelics we could talk about we
1:39:41could talk about that I'm GNA to take my
1:39:43stance I'm gonna take my stance for now
1:39:46yeah I mean in in the world in which we
1:39:48live in the US um I would I would
1:39:51totally agree with you um there are some
1:39:53interesting cultural exceptions in other
1:39:55places uh where there things are more
1:39:58set up
1:39:59to provide for that type of use but I
1:40:02certainly would not recommend it but but
1:40:05coming back to my my recreational
1:40:06experience my my subjective experience
1:40:09was so
1:40:11bizarre and my experience of time so
1:40:14nonlinear my experience of
1:40:17self so different from anything I had
1:40:20experienced up to that point
1:40:24and therefore my construction of reality
1:40:26being so completely unlike anything I
1:40:30had experienced was enough to make me
1:40:32want to learn about these compounds and
1:40:36very early on I still have a scan of it
1:40:38somewhere I think it was in 1998 or 99 I
1:40:42actually wrote a paper one of my junior
1:40:44papers was focused on examining
1:40:47potential similarities between RM sleep
1:40:50and uh LSD MH
1:40:53lsd2 uh
1:40:55and looking at some of the patterns of
1:40:59of neural activity of course we can do a
1:41:01lot more now with with the tools that we
1:41:03have available but from a scientific
1:41:06perspective I was very curious about how
1:41:09much we knew and how much we didn't know
1:41:13and I would say that latter category
1:41:15gets me more excited in a way I'm like
1:41:18okay how how much room is there for
1:41:21growth here right because if if we're
1:41:23just putting on the finishing touches
1:41:24with marginal you know incremental
1:41:27improvements on something that we feel
1:41:29like we've largely figured out that's
1:41:30less interesting to me than something
1:41:32that baffles most people examining them
1:41:36on some level and there was a professor
1:41:38named Barry Jacobs who was doing some
1:41:40very interesting work he did a lot of
1:41:41work looking at the Ser energic systems
1:41:44and uh did a lot of work with cats
1:41:46ultimately I could not do personally the
1:41:50animal work required of the sort of
1:41:53indentured servitude that I would I
1:41:56think you wrote someplace once you know
1:41:58you you said you know when confronted
1:41:59with the uh the prospect of um
1:42:02installing a a a computer printer into
1:42:05the head of
1:42:06ACK on the back of a cat head they they
1:42:08Lally had those like those little VGA
1:42:11ports on the back of these cats heads
1:42:13because cats sleep a lot and so they're
1:42:15interesting study a lot that cats very
1:42:18few Laboratories work on cats any longer
1:42:20it's mostly a mouse still some non-human
1:42:22primate work my lab is essentially shut
1:42:24down um or is in the process of shutting
1:42:26down even our Mouse work I much prefer
1:42:28to work on humans they can give consent
1:42:30and they house themselves and um the
1:42:32animal research thing is tough for any
1:42:34for any sentient being yeah it's it's
1:42:36tough the cat for what it's worth the
1:42:38cats seem pretty happy like they were
1:42:39just sleeping I mean the the ports were
1:42:41for tracking so the cats were pretty I
1:42:44mean they were just normal cats the cats
1:42:45were fine but I would have been we would
1:42:47have been injecting retroviruses into
1:42:49rats and then perfusing them which means
1:42:52bleeding them to death
1:42:54uh to avoid bruising of the tissue
1:42:56because then if you're going to take
1:42:57thin slices and scans you didn't want to
1:42:59have bruising and I just couldn't I just
1:43:02couldn't do it I think it's important I
1:43:04do
1:43:05think I do think there's a place for it
1:43:08but I couldn't do it so that's why I
1:43:09transferred out but the the point I was
1:43:11trying to make is that I had the
1:43:13experience and then I had that drive the
1:43:16scientific interest and then I
1:43:19had probably one experience per year
1:43:23for a few years after that
1:43:26and what I noticed for myself personally
1:43:29because I've suffered from major
1:43:30depressive disorder and extended depre
1:43:33depressive episodes let's just say on
1:43:35average three to four a year and by by
1:43:37extended even before you had started
1:43:39even before from from a young age yeah
1:43:41from a very young age and I would say so
1:43:43let's just call it three to four on
1:43:44average a year those could last each a
1:43:47few weeks or a few months I mean this is
1:43:49this is a a very high percentage of my
1:43:51total year
1:43:53and when I had these higher dose
1:43:55experiences with with mushrooms so we're
1:43:58talking about COC mushrooms and then if
1:44:01we're looking at the molecule that's
1:44:03being examined scientifically
1:44:05psilocybon I noticed this Afterglow
1:44:08effect that was really durable and that
1:44:12was an anti-depressant effect or a mood
1:44:15elevating effect that lasted far longer
1:44:18than the halflife could explain right
1:44:20because four to 6 hours you're you're
1:44:22you're kind of on the other side and I
1:44:25would experience this this Afterglow
1:44:28effect for 3 to six months and that
1:44:30raised all sorts of interesting
1:44:32questions what the hell is going on here
1:44:34is it the content is it some structural
1:44:36change there were a lot of unanswered
1:44:38questions for me and then I had a very
1:44:40very scary experience that led me to
1:44:44completely stop use of psychedelics
1:44:46where again uncontrolled environment
1:44:49ended up in rural uh in rural New York
1:44:53York coming out of my trip standing in
1:44:55the middle of the road in the middle of
1:44:56the night with headlights coming at me
1:44:57goodness gracious so you don't want to
1:44:59do that yeah and I was like okay too
1:45:01dangerous were you taking them alone is
1:45:02that how that is I was taking them with
1:45:03two friends and my two friends without
1:45:06telling me just went for a walk and left
1:45:07me
1:45:08alone points to the you know I mean
1:45:11there're these are powerful compounds
1:45:12yeah you're you're you're playing with
1:45:14nuclear power like these these are the
1:45:17this is the nuclear power
1:45:19of like psychological or uh
1:45:23psychoemotional
1:45:25surgery is is the way I encourage people
1:45:27to think about them and I stopped using
1:45:31any psychedelics completely I was still
1:45:33very interested in them and but I
1:45:37basically hit pause and I didn't revisit
1:45:40that until let's call it 2012 2013 where
1:45:43I was still struggling with major
1:45:45depressive disorder and I saw my
1:45:47girlfriend at the time completely
1:45:48transformed by supervised facilitated
1:45:51use of in this case iasa which uh was
1:45:55not quite as common as it is in
1:45:59conversation at the time and she did
1:46:02that in South America but
1:46:05she not only explained her experience
1:46:08but I was able to see the transformation
1:46:11in her that seemed to have some
1:46:13durability over time and that is when I
1:46:16started stepping back
1:46:18into researching psychedelics looking at
1:46:21what had been published in the last
1:46:24let's just call it 10 years uh as of
1:46:27that point in time
1:46:30and thinking about how I would approach
1:46:32it
1:46:34systematically with safeguards with
1:46:37proper supervision basically approaching
1:46:39it the way I would have approached any
1:46:40of the topics in the 4our body and that
1:46:44is what led me back into along with a
1:46:46number of other interventions I should
1:46:48say so I wasn't betting the farm on
1:46:50psychedelics I also started teach at
1:46:53that point I was I was just some people
1:46:55might uh trans uh transcendal these are
1:46:58like 4 to 10 day meditation Retreats
1:47:02this was actually much shorter it was a
1:47:03two or three day training and you're
1:47:06visiting the instructor I want to say
1:47:08it's once or twice a day probably once a
1:47:10day and getting up to speed and I did
1:47:12this because I was going through an a
1:47:15period of acute stress this is finishing
1:47:19the 4our chef this is actually probably
1:47:22in the Years preceding that and I had
1:47:25one friend who I'd seen really change
1:47:28from let's just call hyper kinetic high
1:47:31anxiety to low anxiety and he said you
1:47:35have the time you have the money pay for
1:47:37the course just take it yes there are
1:47:39all these criticisms of TM yes there are
1:47:42all these weird historical anecdotes of
1:47:44people trying to levitate and all this
1:47:45weirdness just ignore that I'm trying to
1:47:47levitate nothing against that if you
1:47:49actually levitate then we got to have a
1:47:50discussion but trying to levitate seems
1:47:52like why you know every kid every kid
1:47:54tries all sorts of things give it a go
1:47:56uh he's like just put that aside because
1:47:58I I kept coming up with push back and
1:48:01he's like look all I'm saying is it's
1:48:03like a warm bath for your mind that you
1:48:05take twice a day and it'll chill you the
1:48:06out so try it and I was like okay
1:48:08fine it's a good endorsement I was like
1:48:09I was like at this point I was i' had
1:48:10been burning the candle at both ends so
1:48:13intensely it's like okay so there was TM
1:48:16and then I began examining how I might
1:48:18approach notice I didn't just jump into
1:48:20using them I was like how could I
1:48:21approach taking adelic in a sequence in
1:48:25a logical
1:48:26sequence with proper protections with
1:48:29safety assurances and that took
1:48:32me probably a month or two and I was
1:48:35right in the middle of things in
1:48:36Northern California you have access to a
1:48:38lot and only then did I start looking at
1:48:42having my own
1:48:44experiences and lo and behold I mean
1:48:47I'll I'll cut to the chase but the the
1:48:49personal outcome and there there are
1:48:52many different benefits uh and risks I
1:48:55should make very clear these things can
1:48:57be extremely dangerous in certain ways
1:49:00generally not physiologically but they
1:49:01can be
1:49:03dangerous I would say instead of three
1:49:06to four times per year on average I
1:49:08probably have one depressive episode
1:49:10every two years that's a significant
1:49:13Improvement yeah right I mean from a
1:49:15quality of life perspective those are
1:49:17two different people and uh that then
1:49:22led me to and I as I did with all my
1:49:24workouts right I took copious notes over
1:49:28the span I mean now we're looking at 10
1:49:31plus years uh so if I were to ever write
1:49:33another book uh it would probably be
1:49:35related to all of the
1:49:38really fine details of the experiments
1:49:43and my learnings including some of the
1:49:45more Biz bizarre things over the last 10
1:49:48years but it would be a it would be just
1:49:50a beast to create so with with
1:49:52psychedelics experiences with
1:49:53psychedelics psychedelics and sort of
1:49:55psychedelic
1:49:57adjacent uh
1:49:59non-ordinary experiences of
1:50:01Consciousness uh which I think often are
1:50:05touching at edges of the same thing uh
1:50:08which which is going to be controversial
1:50:10for some folks but to to come back to
1:50:12the storyline just to put a bow on
1:50:14that when I saw the personal outcomes
1:50:19for me the anic data from friends who
1:50:22are facilitators who have worked with
1:50:24thousands of people right which is a
1:50:26pretty good sample size still anecdote
1:50:29but these are people who are very smart
1:50:31who keep records and I I believe that
1:50:35these people have spotted patterns that
1:50:37are only going to be possible to test
1:50:40and verify over the next 5 to 10 years
1:50:42so I at least as a as a means of
1:50:46generating hypothesis I take these
1:50:47people very seriously uh and then I
1:50:52started to connect with Scientists whose
1:50:54work I had read like Roland Griffith and
1:50:56John's Hopkins began looking at the most
1:50:59compelling data related to say MDMA
1:51:01assistant Psychotherapy and complex
1:51:05PTSD I I made the commitment to myself
1:51:10that as soon as I had enough money to
1:51:11move the dial because I really felt like
1:51:14these tools were so outside of the
1:51:17normal Paradigm of Psychiatry and
1:51:20pharmacology and that made me very
1:51:22excited because it was uncrowded there's
1:51:24very little funding coming into the
1:51:26space it was high leverage and I looked
1:51:28at it just as I've looked at my many
1:51:30startup Investments uh limited downside
1:51:33risk really high upside potential and I
1:51:36should say before that I had already
1:51:38been funding in a very small way science
1:51:42so the first check I ever wrote was
1:51:44personally to Adam gazali's Lab at UCSF
1:51:48yeah great lab which at the time was
1:51:51looking at soft Ware he's not going to
1:51:53like this description but I'm going to
1:51:54simplify it software that might
1:51:57attenuate or reverse age related
1:52:00cognitive impairment uh spe specifically
1:52:03related to various aspects of of
1:52:06attention
1:52:08and that was my first for into funding
1:52:11early stage science which was very
1:52:13analogous to me of uh to to funding
1:52:15early stage startups and then later on
1:52:18to touch on the reputational thing I
1:52:20know this is a TED talk so thank you for
1:52:21listening no this is great please please
1:52:24you're always so gracious on your
1:52:25podcast this is what people want this is
1:52:28certainly what I want to hear so so on
1:52:29the reputational side you're right that
1:52:32at the time especially let's just call
1:52:34it 2013 to 2015 this was not a na a
1:52:39comfortable National conversation of any
1:52:41type yeah I wouldn't have had this
1:52:42conversation back then no way I'd lose I
1:52:44I don't know that I would have lost my
1:52:46job it just would have raised a lot of
1:52:47eyebrows now that such studies are
1:52:49happening at Stanford the perception
1:52:51yeah the perception was
1:52:54these are a professional third rail at
1:52:57the very least right also illegal
1:52:59therefore if I talk about them am I
1:53:01giving someone probable cause am I going
1:53:03to get myself in some type of really
1:53:05tricky legal situation Etc there are a
1:53:07lot of considerations but I tested that
1:53:11just like I was saying I like to capture
1:53:13my assumptions on paper so I can stress
1:53:15this I was like okay I think that might
1:53:18be true most people I know think that is
1:53:20true but is it true how could we test to
1:53:23see if that is true or not and I decided
1:53:27to
1:53:28crowdfund
1:53:30for a Hopkins pilot study looking at
1:53:32psilocybin for treatment resistant
1:53:34depression and I thought to myself okay
1:53:38we have we have a couple
1:53:40of couple of things falling in our favor
1:53:42here number one depression does not
1:53:44discriminate so cross soio economic
1:53:47classes across gender across race this
1:53:49is a
1:53:51problem almost everyone knows someone
1:53:53who takes anti-depressants who is still
1:53:55depressed okay treatment resistant
1:53:58depression therefore is the indication
1:54:00siloc cybin is the
1:54:04intervention let me crowdfund and I did
1:54:07that throughout the time crowd rise
1:54:08which was co-founded by Edward Norton
1:54:10who had become a friend and was the
1:54:12actor Ed who's very smart very very very
1:54:15smart also one of the best investors
1:54:17I've ever met which a lot of people
1:54:19don't know very bright guy and so crowd
1:54:22funded and I also like to put my uh
1:54:26money where my mouth is so I said okay
1:54:28guys I'm going to seed this like I'm
1:54:29putting in X the goal is to raise I
1:54:31think it was 880,000 something like that
1:54:33for the following study and then I was
1:54:36like let's see let's see what happens
1:54:38and there
1:54:40was basically zero negative blowback and
1:54:45Not only was was there no discernable
1:54:47negative blowback a number of people and
1:54:49this was deliberate I wanted to see this
1:54:51a number of people came came out of the
1:54:52woodwork to support in a bigger way and
1:54:55I was like oh okay I see you bunch a
1:54:57handful of folks I knew and I was like
1:54:58oh interesting okay there are at least a
1:55:00half a dozen folks who are studying the
1:55:04same thing or paying attention to the
1:55:06same thing and then I just got Boulder I
1:55:08was like okay if I tested that let me
1:55:11push and then let's see what happens and
1:55:13I'll wait and lo and behold I realized
1:55:18that the perception did not match the
1:55:20reality the reality was if you're
1:55:21talking about IND indications that cause
1:55:23an incredible amount of suffering for a
1:55:25very large number of
1:55:28people even those who are anti-drug per
1:55:32se just say no to drugs want Solutions
1:55:35and the current treatments for many of
1:55:37these things do not work very well and
1:55:40in the best of cases are often masking
1:55:42symptoms and not addressing root causes
1:55:45I would say so at that point I just went
1:55:48whole hog and I said okay look I like to
1:55:51think that I am a exactly what you see
1:55:53is what you get right the person you
1:55:55talk to off camera person you talk to on
1:55:57camera same and if I start feeling like
1:56:01I have too much to protect I want to do
1:56:04something to counteract that in other
1:56:06words if if if I feel like I need to
1:56:09censor my true feelings and beliefs
1:56:12maybe not share my hardships perhaps not
1:56:15promote certain things because I have a
1:56:17reputation to lose that's a fragile
1:56:19position I want to be as antifragile as
1:56:21possible
1:56:22and so by talking about this I viewed it
1:56:25as a way of inoculating myself against
1:56:27fear of reputation loss like okay let me
1:56:29push this like I'll ride this horse
1:56:31other people might not but I wanted to
1:56:33remove the stigma for funding purposes
1:56:36hopefully open up federal funding that's
1:56:38starting to happen now from different
1:56:41agencies and then to focus on access and
1:56:47reduction of cost and insurance
1:56:49reimbursement and so on so I set a game
1:56:51plan let's call it maybe five years ago
1:56:53and I've just been slowly methodically
1:56:56executing on that since and uh the
1:57:00reason I chose this to focus on and I've
1:57:02funded other things but I've really
1:57:03focused on this mental health
1:57:05Therapeutics which is not limited to
1:57:07psychedelics we could talk about some
1:57:09other things that I find interesting but
1:57:11psychedelics are like I said what makes
1:57:13it attractive very uncrowded you can do
1:57:17a lot with a small amount of money
1:57:19unlike saying cancer research can be
1:57:21very hard like okay you're Deca
1:57:22billionaire great maybe you can do
1:57:24something interesting and I'm sure other
1:57:26people could but if you have 20,000
1:57:28$50,000 it's going to be hard to make a
1:57:30dent there in psychedelics you can
1:57:31actually still make a difference and
1:57:34very high leverage in part because these
1:57:37compounds seem to challenge much of what
1:57:39we assume to be true about treating
1:57:41mental
1:57:42health and uh so that's uh that makes
1:57:46for an attractive bet so that's where
1:57:47I've been been going yeah I'm so glad
1:57:51you shared that with with us and that
1:57:52you did that
1:57:54exploration um and that you've been
1:57:57spearheading the funding efforts uh you
1:57:59know this podcast has a um a premium
1:58:03channel that's for raising funds for
1:58:05scientific studies we are in the process
1:58:07now making our first four uh
1:58:09contributions one of those includes uh
1:58:11work in Nolan Williams laboratory at
1:58:13Stanford combining trans cranial
1:58:15magnetic stimulation with um studies of
1:58:18ibigan and uh 5 Meo DMT maybe a few
1:58:21other things but basically that he's
1:58:23free to do what he wants with the funds
1:58:24we trust him to do great work but that
1:58:26again was inspired by you right uh
1:58:30podcast with a scientific um slant
1:58:32certainly um this podcast obviously has
1:58:35a scientific slant but the idea of doing
1:58:38philanthropy for the sorts of work that
1:58:40uh really deserves funding and
1:58:42exploration and um by the way um and
1:58:45thinking about other hybrid things that
1:58:47would be fun to do I mean I would love
1:58:49to uh contribute and join those efforts
1:58:52that you cu the work to continue to
1:58:54raise funding for psychedelic studies
1:58:56and all these great Laboratories
1:58:58continues right it continues and you've
1:59:00rallied a collection of um some pretty
1:59:03uh powerful people to contribute to this
1:59:05and I know you've joined arms with
1:59:06Michael pollen in many ways do you want
1:59:09to talk about the fellowships that you
1:59:10guys put together I find that really
1:59:12cool you you've got fellowships uh in
1:59:14the works or maybe already happening at
1:59:16UC Berkeley is that right at UC Berkeley
1:59:18yeah so the what what I try to do and
1:59:20for people who want to check it out it's
1:59:22it's the name of the foundation is Cay
1:59:24foundation and let me explain that for a
1:59:26second so it's S A II so Cay
1:59:29foundation.org I speak Japanese I went
1:59:32there as an exchange student and speak
1:59:34read and write it still to this day
1:59:36pretty well sa can mean a lot of things
1:59:38it means rebirth in Japanese and I've
1:59:41seen what can only be described or can
1:59:44certainly be described as rebirth and so
1:59:46many clinical
1:59:48outcomes that I thought it was
1:59:49appropriate to use and
1:59:52what I've tried to do with the
1:59:54foundation
1:59:57is I think do what I'm pretty good at
1:59:59which is trying to peek around corners
2:00:01and find something to prototype right so
2:00:04just like the CGM and like all right how
2:00:06can I just getting a hold of a Dexcom
2:00:08back then when it was just for type 1
2:00:10diabetics was was hard it was is the
2:00:12thing that you have to actually go under
2:00:13the skin so it's like taking a barbecue
2:00:15prong and putting it under your ab
2:00:18abdominal skin it was not comfortable
2:00:20can you describe your um cortisol level
2:00:23and uh subjective terms when you're at
2:00:25home you got this thing and you're about
2:00:27to implant it and you don't have any
2:00:28precent it's not like this is you know
2:00:30like levels or one of these other uh
2:00:32cgms that are out there you know stamp
2:00:34the thing in you can look on Instagram
2:00:36and see someone else do it there's
2:00:37nothing like that so you're at home
2:00:39wondering if you're going to skew your
2:00:40liver yeah I I'm I'm at home doing it
2:00:42myself and I'm sweating like a stuck pig
2:00:45I'm sitting there I'm like my God I
2:00:46don't even know if I can hold is your
2:00:47girlfriend there like to support you in
2:00:49case you I think at the time wasn't
2:00:52because she was squeamish and didn't
2:00:53want to see it and I'm so I'm sitting
2:00:56there at my kitchen table I remember
2:00:57this God I'm sweating just thinking
2:00:59about it and no videos to watch and uh
2:01:04wasn't really supposed to have it in the
2:01:06first place and uh the device for
2:01:09readout by the way no iPhone right so
2:01:12it's like this
2:01:14janky pager looking thing that had a
2:01:16readout that made you think you were
2:01:18playing pong or something I mean it was
2:01:19very the green the green tint screen
2:01:22yeah green tin screen do font it was so
2:01:25primitive and uh put this thing under my
2:01:29skin would tape uh I would cut a Ziploc
2:01:32bag and put it on top and and masking
2:01:34tape it to my skin to take showers
2:01:36because otherwise it wouldn't
2:01:38work and it was it was great and I'll
2:01:42just say that I don't use a c it was
2:01:44great you realize you said it was great
2:01:46I did I did say it was great because
2:01:47sweating and it was I was afraid but it
2:01:49gave me a lot of insight okay and uh
2:01:52then once I had the Insight over a
2:01:54course of a handful of weeks then I felt
2:01:55like I didn't really need it anymore and
2:01:57that was also just a a heavy tax to pay
2:02:01to have to wear that thing around look
2:02:02like you have a you know what is it
2:02:04called a colostomy bag or something it
2:02:05just like it was big it was bulky um so
2:02:09just like I did that I wanted to do
2:02:12proof of concept right the goal was can
2:02:14I use this for healthy normal
2:02:18applications will the insights be
2:02:21actionable
2:02:22and they were lo and behold similarly
2:02:24with the
2:02:25foundation since I'm dealing with
2:02:27smaller amounts of money you know I'm
2:02:28not uh in the billionaire club by any
2:02:31stretch of the imagination and science
2:02:33can be expensive I'm looking for small
2:02:35bets where can I pilot something that if
2:02:39successful will be emulated or can be
2:02:42scaled and so and say the crowdfunding
2:02:45for for the Hopkins treatment resistant
2:02:47depression pilot study we ended up
2:02:49exceeding the goal they were able to
2:02:51recruit more subjects in the case of UC
2:02:54Berkeley Michael poen and I partnered on
2:02:57this and my Foundation funded it the
2:02:59ferris UC Berkeley journalism Fellowship
2:03:02psychedelic journalism Fellowship is
2:03:04providing funding to up-and-coming
2:03:07journalists who want to focus on
2:03:09psychedelics as their beat which to this
2:03:12date has not been financially
2:03:15feasible you just don't have the space
2:03:18to do really long for investig
2:03:23investigative
2:03:24work the Hope being that these
2:03:28journalists can apply their skills and
2:03:31their dedication to examining different
2:03:33facets of the Psychedelic ecosystem
2:03:36therapeutic
2:03:37potential uh regulatory issues ETC in a
2:03:41way that can shape and inform National
2:03:45and international discourse in a in a
2:03:48very critical way because these things
2:03:50are not a Panacea there's a lot of
2:03:53claims that are made about these that
2:03:54are totally unbacked by any type of
2:03:56Science and there're a lot of charlatans
2:03:58and so I want wanted to also invite
2:04:02really competent really good journalists
2:04:04to the table who might want to watch for
2:04:07Bad actors I think that's really
2:04:09important and so this Fellowship has
2:04:13been been uh has been awarding fellows
2:04:16with these grants and I think it's a
2:04:19relatively small amount of money it's
2:04:20like $10,000 per something like that but
2:04:22the outcomes have been amazing we had a
2:04:25huge I want to say was 7,000 word piece
2:04:27that was one of the main features in
2:04:29Rolling Stone magazine huge piece in
2:04:31National Geographic focused on iboga and
2:04:34fair trade and some of the implications
2:04:38for uh local harvesting and or over
2:04:42harvesting all the Dynamics present in
2:04:45that which I think has some incredible
2:04:48promise for particular forms of um
2:04:52opioid use opioid use disorder in
2:04:54particular but uh that has been a huge
2:04:57success so the hope is that other
2:04:59journalism schools will say that's a
2:05:00great idea and I will have DER risked it
2:05:03for some other philanthropist or
2:05:05Foundation or government say director at
2:05:08an agency to say okay well green like
2:05:10that right because I've done it and it's
2:05:12been received very well and it's had a
2:05:15real impact on how things are moving
2:05:17along another one would be say at
2:05:19Harvard popper this is at Harvard Law
2:05:21School was the first is the first
2:05:24dedicated team focused on law policy and
2:05:27regulation related to psychedelics from
2:05:29a legal perspective super important
2:05:31super important super super important
2:05:34also another pilot let's just call it uh
2:05:38proof of concept that Cay Foundation
2:05:40funded
2:05:41was helping to develop curricula for I
2:05:45think it was Yale John's Hopkins and NYU
2:05:50effectively an creditation or module
2:05:52that they could put into their existing
2:05:54Psychiatry
2:05:56MD uh programs such that people could
2:06:01develop the skills necessary and the
2:06:04understanding necessary to administer
2:06:06psychedelic assist therapies if and when
2:06:08they become legal prescribable which it
2:06:11if I understand correctly it sounds like
2:06:14within the next 12 to 24 months MDMA
2:06:18assisted Psychotherapy for the treatment
2:06:20of trauma is is likely to become legal
2:06:24in the hands of uh psychiatrists at
2:06:27least and maybe certain clinical
2:06:28psychologists as well in the US is that
2:06:30right through the M through the efforts
2:06:32of the maps group yeah through through
2:06:34the efforts of maps.org and Rick doblin
2:06:36and many others that is the tip of the
2:06:38spear so I think anyone who's interested
2:06:41in psychedelics should have a vested
2:06:44interest in supporting those
2:06:47efforts not because we know everything
2:06:50works I want to be clear
2:06:52not because we know a priori that all
2:06:54these things do all the things no but if
2:06:57if MDMA fails it's going to be very hard
2:07:00to draft it'll be impossible to draft on
2:07:02that with commands that are more
2:07:05difficult to administer like psilocybin
2:07:08which would be next in line for alcohol
2:07:10use disorder also major depressive
2:07:12disorder so I I I really feel that just
2:07:16like everything I've talked about
2:07:17whether it's
2:07:19networking putting together the 4our
2:07:21body or trying to change National policy
2:07:25and say uh uh
2:07:29reclassification of these compounds
2:07:31getting them out of schedule one to some
2:07:34extent you want to break it down into
2:07:37its constituent pieces you want to do an
2:07:388020 analysis figure out what the
2:07:40critical few are and then put them in a
2:07:42logical sequence and execute the plan
2:07:45one of the greatest weaknesses in the
2:07:46Psychedelic ecosystem is there are a lot
2:07:48of people who just want to do all the
2:07:49things and save all the people and the
2:07:51animals and all the places all at once
2:07:54and that just doesn't work very well
2:07:55there are also some really good people
2:07:56who are executing um and we could talk
2:07:59about the for-profit side and so on but
2:08:01uh I've been very very very pleased with
2:08:05the outcomes that Cay Foundation has
2:08:07been able to achieve with very limited
2:08:10money I'm prouder of those outcomes than
2:08:12I am of the startup record and the
2:08:13startup record is pretty good um and
2:08:15it's the same lens I'm using the
2:08:18same the same filters and the same
2:08:21approach which uh which is kind of what
2:08:23I'm always looking for I'm looking for
2:08:24stuff that'll translate across Fields if
2:08:26possible and then you mentioned one like
2:08:28TMS I think TMS very interesting
2:08:31transcranial magnetic stimulation yeah
2:08:33which at one point was um more commonly
2:08:35used to inhibit specific brain areas
2:08:38this is a non-invasive technique uh I've
2:08:40had it done where it's over my motor
2:08:42cortex and you're tapping your finger
2:08:43and all of a sudden you can't tap your
2:08:44fingers it's pretty eer but now it can
2:08:46be used to stimulate at particular
2:08:48frequencies enhance neuroplasticity and
2:08:50and in combin with psychedelics is the
2:08:53that's kind of the burning question now
2:08:54can you get a uh a synergistic effect of
2:08:57TMS and and uh psychedelic maybe um not
2:09:01just during the the psilocybin or uh
2:09:04iboga Journey but in the days and weeks
2:09:06after when we know for sure a lot of
2:09:08plasticity is still occurring so keep
2:09:09the plasticity on board or accelerate it
2:09:12yeah yeah so T TMS uh also is a
2:09:15monotherapy very interesting to me for
2:09:18depression anxiety even substance use
2:09:20disorders super interesting and there
2:09:23are many different protocols all sorts
2:09:24of different
2:09:25technology uh I would say low intensity
2:09:28or low power ultrasound also super
2:09:31interesting uh for various various
2:09:35applications potentially to addiction so
2:09:38I'm not to be clear
2:09:41a card
2:09:44carrying evangelist for psychedelics I
2:09:47am a proponent of looking for high
2:09:50leverage on crowded Bets with limited
2:09:53downside and testing them out and very
2:09:57optimistic about
2:09:58psychedelics if anyone listening has a
2:10:01family history of say schizophrenia
2:10:03borderline personality disorder uh which
2:10:06we might which this is being very
2:10:09simplistic but categorize or describe as
2:10:13more chaotic conditions compared to
2:10:16hyper rigid conditions like an OCD or
2:10:19anorexia nervosa
2:10:22uh chronic depression Etc and we can
2:10:25talk about why some of these
2:10:27psychedelics at least some of the
2:10:28classical psychedelics seem to have
2:10:30cross efficacy with multiple conditions
2:10:34but psychedelics seem very helpful for
2:10:36certain types of hyper rigidity when you
2:10:39get into schizophrenia borderline
2:10:41personality disorder they can be really
2:10:44heavily contraindicated not to say that
2:10:46they cause those cons those conditions
2:10:48but they can precipitate the onset of
2:10:51those symptoms and for that reason can
2:10:54be very destabilizing and dangerous for
2:10:56for certain people however that's where
2:10:59something like metabolic Psychiatry
2:11:02comes in and the use of ketosis and the
2:11:04ketogenic diet which appears to be very
2:11:08effective in some patients for that
2:11:11grouping of say more chaotic conditions
2:11:14which is very exciting so I'm interested
2:11:17in in in any tools that are off the
2:11:19beaten path that seem to raise
2:11:22interesting questions that have not been
2:11:24answered in a satisfying way yet in
2:11:27medicine uh and I think we're still
2:11:30largely in the Dark Ages with respect to
2:11:33Psychiatry oh I think um the best
2:11:36psychiatrists would agree with you yeah
2:11:38and and the best psychiatrists uh and
2:11:42the best scientists and the best fill
2:11:44inth the blank are acutely aware of the
2:11:47limitations of our current methods and
2:11:49the limitations of our current knowledge
2:11:51uh so I think the mark of a good thinker
2:11:53the mark of a good scientist the mark of
2:11:55a good fill-in theblank anything is
2:11:57someone who says I'd have no idea or we
2:12:00have no idea a lot and hopefully they
2:12:03also say let's go figure it out or try
2:12:05some things and I I I really want to
2:12:08thank you for sharing um that narrative
2:12:10especially because it makes clear that
2:12:11you brought the same systematic process
2:12:14of using and asking excellent questions
2:12:18to arrive at Solutions to arrive at more
2:12:22questions to fund areas of inquiry and
2:12:25to do it all in this really structured
2:12:27way as you said from policy all the way
2:12:29down to like how many grams or uh you
2:12:33know X of of some substance somebody
2:12:35might take I mean I think Matthew
2:12:37Johnson's laboratory at Hopkins uh
2:12:40Roland Griffith uh Robin cardart Harris
2:12:42at UCSF uh Nolan Williams the maps group
2:12:46Rick doblin Peter Hendrick at University
2:12:48of Alabama looking at cocaine addiction
2:12:51things yeah you Michael pollen um you
2:12:53know I'm leaving some names out here and
2:12:55I don't want to take anything away from
2:12:56the um classic uh as they're called um
2:13:00explorers of psychedelics and and
2:13:02writers about psychedelics but we are in
2:13:04the moment of a Renaissance now and it's
2:13:07important that this have a lot of uh
2:13:08fuel so we'll put a link to um your
2:13:11philanthropy efforts and and the
2:13:13journalism uh fellowships as well
2:13:15because I think there's going to be a
2:13:16lot of interest there and I'm huge
2:13:17supporter of what you're doing as as you
2:13:19know and I just think it's the way great
2:13:22science and clinical progress is made so
2:13:25you um thanks Andrew yeah it's which
2:13:28brings me to another parallel topic you
2:13:30know it used to be that meditation and
2:13:31psychedelics were have nested in the
2:13:33same territory this would be in the late
2:13:3560s early 70s the birth of places like
2:13:37esselin Etc or the consequence of the
2:13:40Dual exploration of those things
2:13:42meditation sort of escaped from the
2:13:45psychedelics umbrella and vice versa um
2:13:49starting sometime in the you know mid
2:13:512000s when neuroimaging became a little
2:13:54bit more accessible and you know I think
2:13:56nowadays if you told anybody okay um you
2:13:59know meditation is good for you it can
2:14:00help uh ratchet down your anxiety give
2:14:03more self-awareness um you know improve
2:14:06sleep and on and on maybe even give some
2:14:08insight into Consciousness no one's
2:14:10going to bulk there just a lot of
2:14:11studies there are thousands of studies
2:14:13um my laboratory's done a few of them
2:14:15there are other Laboratories who have
2:14:16done uh far more the book altered traits
2:14:18is the one that comes to mind group out
2:14:20of Wisconsin was early to early to the
2:14:22game on this um in any event you talked
2:14:26about
2:14:27TM um I'm curious from a practical
2:14:30standpoint do you still meditate daily
2:14:33do you do meditation Retreats um what
2:14:36sorts of meditative practices do you
2:14:39have because I realize this can be done
2:14:40walking writing as its own form of
2:14:42meditation what sorts of formal
2:14:44practices do you still engage in now
2:14:46yeah I do 10 to 20 minutes in the
2:14:47morning so I am not currently doing the
2:14:51TM twice daily 20 minutes I think that
2:14:53would be better for me probably do you
2:14:55set a clock and you or yeah I'll set a
2:14:58clock uh which would be more of the
2:15:00concentration practice of say a TM where
2:15:02you're repeating a mantra honestly it
2:15:04could be any in my opinion some TM
2:15:07purists will bulk at this but uh it
2:15:09could be really any nonsense syllable
2:15:11could be a word although I think
2:15:13something without any attached meaning
2:15:15is probably more beneficial for a host
2:15:16of reasons so con could be a
2:15:18concentration practice with 20 minutes
2:15:20of sitting
2:15:22it might also be a guided meditation and
2:15:24I have no vested interest in this app
2:15:26but I think the waking up app by Sam
2:15:28Harris is fantastic I have do I I have
2:15:31used the introductory course which is
2:15:33Sam leading you through my catnip which
2:15:36is a logical progression of skill
2:15:38development from day one to three and
2:15:41and forward I have gone through that
2:15:44course multiple times when I'm getting
2:15:46back on the horse for meditation as a
2:15:48bit of a reboot once you develop I think
2:15:50a certain degree of awareness and
2:15:53mindfulness I do think there are other
2:15:56activities that
2:15:59probably allow you the parallel
2:16:01experience of doing one thing while
2:16:04experiencing some of the benefits of
2:16:05meditation and so for me I wonder at
2:16:09times are the benefits of meditation the
2:16:12concentration practice itself is it just
2:16:14sitting still with my eyes clo closed
2:16:18downregulating my system a little bit
2:16:19activating my Paras sympath atic and not
2:16:22rushing or doing anything for 20 minutes
2:16:25is that it maybe is
2:16:28it simply correcting my posture for 20
2:16:31minutes how do I wait these different
2:16:34inputs and the the short answer is you
2:16:36probably don't need to know but I have
2:16:39found that spending time in silence in
2:16:44nature without anything to do
2:16:47disallowing myself from doing things no
2:16:50note take no reading Etc and spending I
2:16:54I have spent a number of extended fasts
2:16:56in nature just like water only by myself
2:16:59no talking no reading no writing what's
2:17:01extended seven days generally wow so
2:17:04you're camping in nature MH with just
2:17:07water yep that's it by
2:17:09myself and there are risks associated
2:17:12with that right you gotta be careful not
2:17:13stupid about it but uh that does a lot
2:17:16for me with some persistent benefits are
2:17:21there some favorite places that you've
2:17:22gone uh into nature it doesn't have to
2:17:24be to fast like for instance I'm a big
2:17:26fan of um some of the national parks up
2:17:28in the Pacific Northwest because it's
2:17:30like being transported to a different
2:17:31planet Y is obviously amazing but any
2:17:34favorite spots um where we won't go
2:17:37people won't go looking for you there
2:17:38don't worry yeah I you live in Austin
2:17:41all the time so they right yeah so I
2:17:43would say uh Colorado Utah New Mexico
2:17:48spending time in mountains around River
2:17:50rivers lakes I find very therapeutic and
2:17:56just gorgeous I I I do think we suffer
2:17:58from uh awe deficiency disorder you know
2:18:02a bit of add when we're trapped in the
2:18:05mundane for too long with too much
2:18:07distraction with too many to-dos with
2:18:10too many
2:18:11relationships and there's no space for a
2:18:13there there isn't the room necessary a
2:18:16isn't from my perspective generally a
2:18:19quick hit that you get in the 30 seconds
2:18:22between using two apps there's there's
2:18:25more Breathing Room required for a
2:18:26genuine Transcendent experience of awe
2:18:28so I try to on a yearly
2:18:31basis as one of my top priorities block
2:18:34out these weeks of time in nature yeah
2:18:37last year was the first year I did that
2:18:38I went out to
2:18:39Colorado um in August and just took
2:18:42daily hikes I stayed in a hotel was I'm
2:18:44not as beasty as you doing water fast I
2:18:47was eating every day but um it was spect
2:18:50acular one thing I noticed and I'd like
2:18:52to know your process on how do you
2:18:55handle going back into life um great
2:18:58question you know because those days
2:19:00were and are amazing right you like
2:19:02detached and you know maybe one text
2:19:04message here or there in between hikes
2:19:06or something and then you just really
2:19:07clued in even the the process of
2:19:09watching a show at night like one felt
2:19:12so rich and like enough so I wasn't um
2:19:14as aesthetic as you were and uh like
2:19:17really cleaned all the Clutter but once
2:19:19you return to life mhm it's almost like
2:19:21get being a wash in demands and and I
2:19:24can see from a place of more Equanimity
2:19:26how one could make better choices but
2:19:28how do you handle those transitions the
2:19:29re-entry yeah so before getting to the
2:19:32re-entry I think it might make sense for
2:19:34me to talk about what comes before so
2:19:36let's say it's like pre during
2:19:40post part of the reason I do these one
2:19:46week or longer periods Off the Grid is
2:19:49because it forces me to put better
2:19:51systems in place so there's the benefit
2:19:54that you derive from say that week and I
2:19:56have three weeks coming up right after
2:19:58this interview where I'm going to be off
2:20:00the grid to set myself up for three
2:20:02weeks off the grid I have a team I have
2:20:06the podcast I have a lot of things that
2:20:07are in motion at any given point in
2:20:10time if you disappear for say a two to
2:20:144-we period generally you cannot let the
2:20:16whole house catch on fire then come back
2:20:18and put it out effectively which means
2:20:20you need put some policies and rules and
2:20:22so on in place in advance and there's a
2:20:26carryover effect that has a host of
2:20:28benefits and makes things smoother for
2:20:30the re-entry so they're related like the
2:20:32more you set up the pre the easier the
2:20:35post is going to be and then you have
2:20:37this beautiful expansive experience in
2:20:40nature whatever it might be whether
2:20:42you're making it a sufferfest like I do
2:20:45or at a hotel at night either way these
2:20:48things can work and nature in and of
2:20:50itself is super helpful I do think that
2:20:51a lot of the time we like to imagine
2:20:55because we're driven smart accomplished
2:20:58people that our problems are very
2:20:59complex and at the end of the day it's
2:21:01like you just need some time in nature
2:21:03and a cold shower and some
2:21:05macadamia nuts and you'll be fine you
2:21:08don't need to solve like all the
2:21:09existential dilemmas of humankind
2:21:11actually or fancy Pharmaceuticals
2:21:14so you have this experience over this
2:21:17week and what I will do then is set at
2:21:21least a let's call it integration period
2:21:25of two to three days where I will slowly
2:21:27Edge back in to my previous routine I
2:21:32will not within 12 hours of getting back
2:21:36to so-called civilization have a day
2:21:38full of calls or meetings I will not do
2:21:40that it's too much of a shock to the
2:21:42system and I think it robs you of a tail
2:21:44end of benefits which would also be the
2:21:46case with say fast or ketogenic diet or
2:21:49any number of interventions you can
2:21:52squeeze out a longtail of benefits if
2:21:54you make a handful of changes for
2:21:56instance after an extended fast what if
2:21:58you started with a subc caloric
2:22:02ketogenic diet for a few days you get to
2:22:04extend some of the benefits as opposed
2:22:06to going straight back to say a diet
2:22:09that includes a lot of carbohydrates
2:22:11similarly when you create more of a
2:22:14vacuum more space for awe Insight
2:22:17reflection
2:22:19recovery I I think you're doing yourself
2:22:21a disservice if you jump from park into
2:22:23sixth gear and so I plan for that and
2:22:27it's a function of scheduling I also
2:22:29have a predictable weekly schedule so I
2:22:32tend to schedule podcast recordings on
2:22:34Mondays and Fridays in preparation for
2:22:38an extended trip I will batch a lot of
2:22:40similar activities that we have say a
2:22:43bunch of episodes in the bank that are
2:22:44prescheduled everything is figured out
2:22:46in advance and over time the more you
2:22:49take these breaks the better your
2:22:51systems become and the more liberated
2:22:53you are from the day-to-day which means
2:22:55when you get back you also don't need to
2:22:58rush as much into hyperactivity and if
2:23:01you do you know that that is more from a
2:23:04compulsivity than from a
2:23:07necessity while you on these nature
2:23:10Retreats are you writing on a daily
2:23:12basis are you just thinking and allowing
2:23:14thoughts to enter and leave your system
2:23:17depends on the retreat so sometimes I'm
2:23:21writing but writing I think can
2:23:24underscore for me a desire to be
2:23:28compulsively
2:23:29productive and I think that is inversely
2:23:33correlated to my happiness or sense of
2:23:35well-being a lot of the time so there
2:23:37are many areas in my life now so if you
2:23:39were to ask me like what has changed
2:23:41significantly since the time that you
2:23:42wrote for our body I would say that
2:23:45rather than looking for areas to
2:23:48optimize I am looking where I can very
2:23:52deliberately de optimize certain areas
2:23:54to increase sense of well-being where
2:23:56can I de optimize where can I stop
2:23:58measuring where can I stop reading books
2:24:02which areas can I ignore completely what
2:24:06types of information can I just excise
2:24:08from my life altogether for a period of
2:24:11time delete Twitter stop reading about
2:24:13books in X related to say
2:24:16AI or whatever it might be like where
2:24:19can I de optimize selectively to sort of
2:24:22optimize the whole does that make sense
2:24:24makes good sense yeah and before we
2:24:27started recording I gave you a book
2:24:28which is a short collection of
2:24:30poetry by uh haliza Gori which is called
2:24:34gold it's a collection of roomy poetry
2:24:36reading poetry is an activity almost by
2:24:40definition which
2:24:42is is the antithesis of optimization so
2:24:46I've tried to also integrate more of
2:24:48those activities into my life and this
2:24:49relates to your question
2:24:51because there are times when I will just
2:24:53force myself to sit on my goddamn hands
2:24:56and not write not read just do the thing
2:24:59that is so uncomfortable sometimes which
2:25:01is just sitting there with
2:25:03yourself you know it can be incredibly
2:25:06uncomfortable and in part because of the
2:25:09fear that it could become comfortable
2:25:11yeah right especially for proactive
2:25:13people with a yeah strong to use Paul
2:25:16K's words generative drive you know
2:25:18you're going to that's a uh you know the
2:25:21which is a good thing uh I believe it's
2:25:24a good thing and it it can be a good
2:25:27thing it can
2:25:29indicate really
2:25:32incredible
2:25:33adaptations it can also sometimes I
2:25:36think indicate Mal
2:25:39adaptations right and so I think it's
2:25:41it's helpful to take a break from that
2:25:42generative drive or at least just put it
2:25:46in park position to see if that
2:25:49generative Drive
2:25:52is is perhaps indicative of you leaning
2:25:55towards something in a healthy proactive
2:25:58way versus running from something in a
2:26:03long-term destructive way yeah well and
2:26:05I think Paul would say that part of the
2:26:07generative Drive process is um Peace you
2:26:11know not as necessarily even as a still
2:26:13state but as a um you know being able to
2:26:16experience peace even in the Transitions
2:26:18and there's a lot more to say about that
2:26:19and would say it far better than I ever
2:26:21would so I'll uh leave it at that and um
2:26:24I mean for people who have the
2:26:26option getting in nature it doesn't have
2:26:28to be all day every day on a water fast
2:26:30I just take certain things to an extreme
2:26:32because that's who I am but sorry when
2:26:33you say water fast that means fasting
2:26:35with water right it just fasting but yes
2:26:38drinking water it just means you're
2:26:40allowed to have water and nothing else
2:26:41for for a long time I thought it meant
2:26:43that you're not drinking water oh yeah
2:26:45no don't do that some people do that
2:26:47right they do these crazy food water
2:26:48fasts um as a weight I think they
2:26:50believe it clears senent cells or
2:26:52something but um probably clears a lot
2:26:54more than just cocin cells yeah I uh
2:26:58there might be something to it I mean
2:27:00look there are people who recycle by
2:27:01drinking their own urine not my jam uh
2:27:04but I would say it's like three hours
2:27:07without shelter three days without water
2:27:08three weeks without food general rule of
2:27:10thumb so be careful with dehydration you
2:27:14can go a long time without food if you
2:27:16have I don't care how ripped you are you
2:27:17get 8% body fat man you got plenty of
2:27:19time you can go couple weeks no problem
2:27:21you got calories St 9000 calories per
2:27:23pound stored body fat you got plenty
2:27:25don't
2:27:26worry uh so for people who have the
2:27:29option to be in nature and just exercise
2:27:34several hours a day to
2:27:37exhaustion see how many of your problems
2:27:40seem to just go away just try that yeah
2:27:43well my Sunday routine uh is to try and
2:27:46get outside and move as much as possible
2:27:48yeah I don't always succeed but um I'm
2:27:51going to try a longer retreat into
2:27:53nature I think um Olympic National
2:27:56Forest is is calling me again it seems
2:27:59like once a year I just want to get back
2:28:00up there it's uh it's calling you you
2:28:03you should get back out there it's
2:28:04spectacular I have a question about
2:28:08mentors I'm a big believer in mentors
2:28:10either uh mentors that know us and we
2:28:13know them or U people that we assign as
2:28:15mentors without them realizing it um
2:28:17this sort of thing uh do you have
2:28:20mentors at this stage of life um for
2:28:23particular areas of life are you uh you
2:28:26mentoring yourself are you flying with
2:28:29um a few voices in your head uh that
2:28:32serve you well who are your
2:28:34mentors I definitely have people I
2:28:36consider mentors it's I think at this
2:28:40point rarely one way in the sense that
2:28:44they tend to be
2:28:46friends I spend time with they get
2:28:49something from it I get something from
2:28:51it not in a transactional way but they
2:28:53find it fun or beneficial or amusing in
2:28:57some way redeeming to spend time with me
2:28:59that's the hope but how is that
2:29:01different from like traditional
2:29:03friendship you know just sort of
2:29:04standard friendship are you focus are
2:29:06you spending time with some orientation
2:29:09toward like their embodying areas of
2:29:13life that you would like to emulate
2:29:15totally I mean I spend I spend time
2:29:17around people I hope to be more like in
2:29:21some way because guess what you're going
2:29:24to average into say the the just the the
2:29:29sum holistic ho of the five or six
2:29:32people you spend the most time with so
2:29:33you should choose that very carefully
2:29:34that includes virtual parasocial
2:29:37relationships like okay if you're
2:29:38listening to fill in- the blank person
2:29:41for four hours a week five hours a week
2:29:43two hours a week whoever that
2:29:46group is comprised of is going to
2:29:49influence who you become come
2:29:51and for me then I think carefully about
2:29:54my friendships and they could be older
2:29:57like a Kevin Kelly who's become a good
2:30:00friend who has a wealth of life
2:30:03experience that I don't have and so I
2:30:06might just call him and say Kevin I have
2:30:07question for you but I do that with my
2:30:09younger friends too and they could be
2:30:10younger than I am and I might still view
2:30:12them as a mentor in xwi Z I think Mentor
2:30:15has a heavy weight to it it has a
2:30:19connotation
2:30:21of maybe NeverEnding time consuming
2:30:25obligation so I I would never for
2:30:28instance and I know a lot of people try
2:30:30this ask someone to be my mentor it's
2:30:32like would you like to be my free life
2:30:33coach forever you know it's like that's
2:30:35kind of how it sounds to the recipient
2:30:37it it sounds very formal yeah it sounds
2:30:39very formal and so for me I would say
2:30:43there have certainly been mentors I've
2:30:44had wrestling coaches I've had teachers
2:30:47I've had resident advisor who were
2:30:50reverence who had a huge impact on my
2:30:52life and followed up with me and paid
2:30:54attention to me and cared for me in more
2:30:58of a one
2:31:00directional sense right I I view myself
2:31:03as the beneficiary of course they they
2:31:05certainly got something out of it if
2:31:06they had that job I they probably found
2:31:07it to be very gratifying in its own way
2:31:10and teachers like Professor Ed sha at
2:31:12Princeton I feel in incredibly indebted
2:31:17to these days
2:31:21and for a long time I've believed that
2:31:23you can learn
2:31:25something powerful from almost anyone
2:31:28probably anyone you interact with could
2:31:31be an Uber driver could be someone
2:31:33taking garbage out of a restaurant if
2:31:36you really take the time to dig you can
2:31:37find something
2:31:40and before you can I think as an
2:31:45adult effectively think about who you
2:31:47would like to learn from if I put it
2:31:49that
2:31:50way it's helpful to have a baseline of
2:31:53self-awareness that you know what you
2:31:55might want to work on to either amplify
2:31:59strengths develop skills address
2:32:02weaknesses and so for instance one of my
2:32:04close friends Matt mullenweg is younger
2:32:06than I am he's the he's the founder of
2:32:09automatic which runs wordpress.com he
2:32:11was the leite developer of Wordpress
2:32:13although was an open source project of
2:32:15course with many many contributors he
2:32:17was one of the lead developers Now power
2:32:19something like 32% of the internet and
2:32:23he exemplifies a cool and calm
2:32:28temperament even in the most chaotic
2:32:31periods imaginable during the most
2:32:32chaotic events imaginable
2:32:35and when I find myself
2:32:38getting disregulated to use a fancy term
2:32:42losing my or getting carried away
2:32:44by emotion getting righteously angry or
2:32:47whatever it might be and I recognize at
2:32:49some some point that it's really not
2:32:50serving me that I am being owned by the
2:32:54emotion right like I'm the dog on the
2:32:56leash not the other way
2:32:57around then I think of Matt I'm like
2:33:00what would Matt do what advice would
2:33:03Matt give me right now how would Matt
2:33:05act in these circumstances and I do that
2:33:09with with with many friends I
2:33:12also think a lot about and this is
2:33:15borrowing from someone named Kathy
2:33:17Sierra a long time ago focusing more on
2:33:21just in time information as opposed to
2:33:22just in case information so just in case
2:33:25information is like I'm going to read
2:33:26these 20 books because in two years I
2:33:28might be interested in X Y and Z that I
2:33:32think is often a waste of time because
2:33:35if it ever becomes relevant you're just
2:33:36going to have to reread those books
2:33:38people do the same thing with humans
2:33:40they're like I want to meet so and so
2:33:42and have them as my mentor because maybe
2:33:45five years from now I'll do X Y and Z
2:33:47and then they'll be useful for ABC
2:33:50that's too speculative and I think it
2:33:52ends up in a lot of wasted energy so the
2:33:55podcast for
2:33:56me writing the books and doing the
2:33:59interviews even prior to the podcast
2:34:02becoming involved with
2:34:04startups delving into the world of
2:34:06science and
2:34:07scientists all helps me to develop a
2:34:11confidence that almost any question I
2:34:15could ask I can find some semblance of
2:34:18an answer for by just reaching out to a
2:34:21few people and saying who do you know
2:34:22who might be able to answer
2:34:24this and that's very reassuring and it
2:34:27it relieves some of the anxiety or
2:34:31pressure that people might feel to
2:34:33assemble some personal board of
2:34:35directors of like X-Men and women who
2:34:37can help them with everything uh and and
2:34:41then there are people I hire to be
2:34:43accountable to right so I might work
2:34:44with coaches therapists and so on who I
2:34:48would view as they just Happ to get
2:34:50getting paid for it right yeah the
2:34:52reason I asked the question is because
2:34:54we were talking about the meditative
2:34:56process going into nature and even with
2:34:58psychedelics there you know they can be
2:35:00viewed a lot of different ways but I
2:35:02think of them largely as going inward to
2:35:04explore I mean you're out in nature and
2:35:06learning from nature um there's such a
2:35:09core truth to Nature I know that sounds
2:35:12a little bit you know uh wishy-washy but
2:35:16it's uh it's true like if it's there
2:35:18it's concrete it's really something uh
2:35:21it was there long before any of us and
2:35:22it'll be there a lot longer than any of
2:35:24us will ever be we hope um uh certainly
2:35:29if it goes we go so um but the process
2:35:33of learning from others and paying
2:35:35attention to others is is really an
2:35:36outward-looking thing I mean we have to
2:35:38bring that in but I was just curious how
2:35:40you balance those and as a way to really
2:35:43understand not just your time allocation
2:35:45right I think uh we could talk about
2:35:47that you know what's how's your morning
2:35:48structured Etc which I think there's
2:35:50Great Value in in in knowing but more um
2:35:54what what's your mind allocation right I
2:35:56think about this you know like where's
2:35:58my brain is it am I focus on what's
2:36:00going on in here and you know is that is
2:36:02there a need to excavate there sure you
2:36:04know but how much time am my out of my
2:36:06head and bringing things in from the
2:36:07outside world and back and forth so do
2:36:09you have some sense of um across the
2:36:12year across the day how you mind
2:36:16allocate I don't know if um that's the
2:36:18best phrase but I can't think of any
2:36:20better one if you can think of a better
2:36:21one please please uh table it cuz I I'm
2:36:24happy to to use that how do I think
2:36:25about mind allocation or attention
2:36:29[Music]
2:36:30allocation I try
2:36:34to and most frequently think of my mind
2:36:39share across a
2:36:41year and
2:36:43across week a weekly time frame
2:36:48and I
2:36:50find that to be manageable in the sense
2:36:53that on a yearly
2:36:59basis on New Year's Eve or roughly
2:37:01around New Year's every year I'll do a
2:37:04past year review pyr past year review
2:37:07where I'll go back and I'll look at my
2:37:08entire last year have a piece of paper
2:37:11in front of me line down the center plus
2:37:14negative and I will go through every
2:37:18week in my calendar for the pre previous
2:37:19year and I will write down the people
2:37:24places activities commitments
2:37:27Etc that produced Peak positive
2:37:32emotional experiences so right we're
2:37:34doing an 8020 analysis here like what
2:37:36are the big rocks that really move the
2:37:37needle in a meaningful way and
2:37:39conversely who are the people what are
2:37:42the things what are the places that just
2:37:45made me go g and we're draining produced
2:37:48Peak negative experiences why the hell
2:37:50did I commit to this type
2:37:52experiences and that presents me with a
2:37:56do more of do less of list then I look
2:37:59forward to the next year and I did this
2:38:01I suppose just a handful of months ago
2:38:03around New Year's with the Positive I'm
2:38:05like okay here's my list of do more of
2:38:09it's not real until it's in the calendar
2:38:11let's get these things in the calendar
2:38:13and then I will start talking to people
2:38:14booking things having people help with
2:38:17organizing if that is qu ired and
2:38:20getting things blocked out so I have
2:38:23already this year and we're in the
2:38:25reasonable beginning stages of the year
2:38:28I have things blocked out until November
2:38:30of this year and those provide the
2:38:34breaks in the action not just the breaks
2:38:37in the action but the fun stuff because
2:38:38by the way guys I thought for a long
2:38:41time like yeah you take care of ab andc
2:38:43and the good stuff just takes care of
2:38:44itself I have I do not any longer
2:38:47believe that to be true unless you
2:38:49schedule these things that you claim are
2:38:51important they're going to get crowded
2:38:52out by
2:38:54and maybe not but just
2:38:56less important things the Urgent will
2:38:59crush the important so I get these
2:39:02things on the calendar and then I back
2:39:04up and I look at optimal
2:39:08weekly mind allocation right attentional
2:39:12allocation and there's a there's there's
2:39:15an Incredible cost to cognitive
2:39:17switching if you're just test switching
2:39:19all day so I will try my best to format
2:39:24a
2:39:25weekly Rhythm a weekly sequence that
2:39:28allows me to focus on certain types of
2:39:31tasks so Monday is very frequently admin
2:39:36of some type just bits and ends flats
2:39:38and jets them all the miscellaneous
2:39:41pieces that are part of life you got to
2:39:43deal with them that tends to be Monday
2:39:46whenever possible and especially if I am
2:39:49focused on physical activity let's just
2:39:52say um in a place like Colorado I will
2:39:54try to schedule most of that for after
2:39:59lunch to ensure that I get in a lot of
2:40:02exercise and movement in the first
2:40:04portion of the day not everybody has
2:40:05that ability but I will say more of you
2:40:07have that capacity than you might think
2:40:10because most of what we all do is just
2:40:12not important yeah time on social media
2:40:15first thing in the morning is probably
2:40:17the most poisonous activity that I could
2:40:20take part in I I don't want to you know
2:40:23point fingers at anyone else but oh yeah
2:40:25I think if people ask you know what is
2:40:27the you know amount of time it takes to
2:40:29get in a really good workout it's going
2:40:32to be about an hour you know but a lot
2:40:34can be done in 45 or even 30 minutes you
2:40:36think about how quickly that time goes
2:40:38by on social media like I'm sure I'm not
2:40:41the only one uh that this part of the
2:40:43reason I deleted a lot of these apps
2:40:45from my phone it's like I would be I'd
2:40:47go into the bathroom to take a you know
2:40:50quick bit of business and then 45
2:40:52minutes later I'm like how have I been
2:40:54looking at Instagram 45 minutes yeah
2:40:56lines in for restrooms have gotten very
2:40:58long in the last 10 10 years has anyone
2:41:00noticed that the wait for the restrooms
2:41:02has gotten very long so you have time
2:41:05for the important stuff it's like and
2:41:07and just look at some of the extreme
2:41:08over cheers out there they have the same
2:41:10amount of time that you do have you I
2:41:12was gonna ask this later about just
2:41:13we'll just quickly interject this now um
2:41:16I saw perhaps it was on Twitter maybe I
2:41:19overheard this that you're back on
2:41:22Instagram it's uh I mean you've always
2:41:24had an account yeah that posts but are
2:41:27you back in there are you out of there
2:41:29um I mean look my the Dirty Little
2:41:31Secret I'm single again and that's a
2:41:32great way to connect with with eligible
2:41:35ladies who might be of interest is
2:41:37Instagram so you're on um so you're on
2:41:39Instagram I'm willing to pay the tax of
2:41:42dealing with the brain damage of using
2:41:45Instagram as a result hey look finding a
2:41:47great life partner is exactly EXA
2:41:51exactly so that's that is the reason for
2:41:54that but otherwise it would not be on my
2:41:57phone it's too it wouldn't even be on
2:41:59your phone absolutely not it's too welld
2:42:01designed these companies are very smart
2:42:03they have very good data scientists they
2:42:05have very good UI Specialists if anyone
2:42:08out there thinks that they can look
2:42:10maybe maybe Joo can can discipline his
2:42:12way through it I'm sure he can because
2:42:14he's he is Joo but in my case and in the
2:42:17case of most people like you're bringing
2:42:18a knife to gunfight if you think you can
2:42:20use your self-control to keep your use
2:42:24of Instagram to say 10 minutes at a clip
2:42:27good luck yeah and even if you can
2:42:30people say ah but I do that anyway I'm
2:42:31like all right how much time do you
2:42:32spend sending memes and links from
2:42:35Instagram or fill-in the blank platform
2:42:37to your friends and group chat how much
2:42:39time does that consume I spend a fair
2:42:41amount of time on Instagram and Twitter
2:42:43posting things related to the podcast
2:42:45but um I don't have someone to do that
2:42:47for me and I I actually enjoy doing it
2:42:48and it challenges me in certain ways but
2:42:51I completely agree with everything
2:42:52you're saying I also want to note that
2:42:54you didn't say that you're on Twitter uh
2:42:56possibly to meet somebody um which is
2:42:58more a statement about Twitter yeah yeah
2:43:00it's not the it's not the not the
2:43:02friendliest neighborhood I've found and
2:43:05uh I would say Twitter has its use cases
2:43:08I I find it useful in some respects it
2:43:10has become much less useful and much
2:43:13less practical in the last year with a
2:43:14lot of the product changes but it has
2:43:18its place it's it's not on my phone it
2:43:20was on my phone for a very brief period
2:43:21of time I do not want I find that my
2:43:26ability to be still and
2:43:29calm is
2:43:31eroded if I
2:43:33am too easily able to escape
2:43:37boredom if you cease to have the ability
2:43:40to be bored for 5 to 10 minutes I think
2:43:43that makes you very fragile it makes you
2:43:45very easy to manipulate also and there
2:43:48are a lot of forces at play online that
2:43:50want to manipulate or shape your
2:43:52behavior in different ways so I feel
2:43:54like it is imperative for me to
2:43:57cultivate the ability to just sit still
2:44:00and not consume the five minutes in
2:44:03line waiting to get into a restaurant by
2:44:06hopping on Twitter or
2:44:08Instagram so that's part of the reason
2:44:11they're not on my phone could you tell
2:44:12us about
2:44:16punch yeah I can tell you about
2:44:18punch so punch is a creative
2:44:22project intended once again to make me
2:44:26less precious about protecting whatever
2:44:30brand I think I might
2:44:32have and this is an investment in my
2:44:34long-term mental health also and I think
2:44:37in my career flexibility my willingness
2:44:40to
2:44:41experiment punch could be a long
2:44:44story but the gist of it is I wanted to
2:44:47experiment with fiction writing I been
2:44:49saying this for years and I've never
2:44:50done it that's the backdrop on top of
2:44:54that I have wanted to get back into
2:44:56illustration and work in the visual arts
2:44:58which I did for a long time when I was
2:45:00younger and I've not done that
2:45:03consistent why not because I haven't had
2:45:05accountability I haven't had deadlines
2:45:07it hasn't been in the calendar this
2:45:09should sound somewhat familiar by now
2:45:13and at the same time I was becoming very
2:45:16interested in web 3 and what was
2:45:18happening in the world of nfts this is
2:45:20probably 2020 and I know theyve they've
2:45:22developed a fairly negative connotation
2:45:24for a lot of good
2:45:26reasons but I started to think about
2:45:29fundraising for early stage science and
2:45:33if I could do if I could conduct an
2:45:36experiment as a proof of concept with
2:45:39different novel approaches to
2:45:41fundraising so rather than just calling
2:45:44the rich friends who might sort of Bend
2:45:47to the pressure
2:45:49or be willing to fund I wanted to look
2:45:52at say crowdfunding back in the day then
2:45:55I wanted to look at different options
2:45:57for perhaps art auctions and I was going
2:45:58to do this with with Contemporary Art
2:46:01this is many years ago and in the
2:46:03process of wanting to fund the the
2:46:06Hopkins Center focused on psychedelic
2:46:08and Consciousness research which which
2:46:10the was the first of its kind in the
2:46:11United
2:46:13States and the technology gave me the
2:46:17opportunity to learn about a new let's
2:46:21just call it set of Technologies so to
2:46:24develop skills and knowledge it would
2:46:26give me the opportunity to reconnect and
2:46:28deepen friendships with a number of my
2:46:30very very smart friends who are playing
2:46:32in that
2:46:33area also test fundraising also get back
2:46:37into fiction and art and all of that
2:46:39combined into this thing that I end up
2:46:40calling punch because it made me
2:46:42laugh and you know
2:46:44what man if you take your work too
2:46:47seriously you're going to burn out
2:46:48before you get the really serious work
2:46:50done and I think it was uh berand
2:46:52Russell who said it's a sure sign of an
2:46:54impending nervous breakdown if you start
2:46:56taking your work too seriously or
2:46:58believing your work to be very very
2:47:00serious
2:47:02and for that
2:47:05reason I wanted to give it an absurd
2:47:07name that would also have some Word of
2:47:10Mouth
2:47:11benefit and that
2:47:13to see what would happen honestly just
2:47:16see what would happen because someone
2:47:17like all right look what is honestly the
2:47:19worst thing that happens like people
2:47:21write a bunch of pieces where they're
2:47:22like shaking their fist at the sky how
2:47:24dare Tim Ferris Co create a project
2:47:27called punch you could turn it
2:47:28around on them and just say that what
2:47:29they were doing is a punch no well
2:47:32attempting attemp that well that was
2:47:34kind of the thing uh that was kind of
2:47:37part of the thinking that it would just
2:47:38be entertaining to watch people
2:47:40seriously trying to critique something
2:47:41called punch and uh the upshot of
2:47:45that is it raised almost $2 million sold
2:47:48out out in something like 30 minutes or
2:47:5140 minutes for the foundation all that
2:47:53money went to cam Foundation all that
2:47:55money has already been distributed in
2:47:57the form of Grants wonderful and uh
2:48:00along the way I got to work with artists
2:48:04with programmers learn new
2:48:06technologies reconnect with old friends
2:48:09and now we're back in touch and it's
2:48:11it's extremely fun to be back in touch
2:48:12with these folks and I've written the
2:48:16equivalent of a short book in fiction in
2:48:19the form of short stories that are this
2:48:21Fantasy World building exercise for me
2:48:23and I'm having a blast so I'm exercising
2:48:26new creative muscles that has led me
2:48:28back into the worlds of comic books
2:48:31which I haven't created yet led me back
2:48:34into the worlds of gaming led me back
2:48:36into my fascination with tabletop gaming
2:48:38because I played D and D forever when I
2:48:40was a kid that was my refuge as a runt
2:48:42who got the crap kicked out of him left
2:48:43and right and I having just a blast and
2:48:48the
2:48:51the takeaway I think on some level is
2:48:54that you should do
2:48:56things should is should is a is a is a
2:48:59loaded
2:49:00term it's helpful for me to consider
2:49:03doing things that give me energy right
2:49:05because if we say all right time
2:49:07management is fine but time doesn't
2:49:10really have any practical value unless
2:49:12you have attention right so then there's
2:49:13attentional management but that
2:49:16attention is limited also phys
2:49:18physically and sort of metaphorically by
2:49:21energy right so you have like substrates
2:49:24diets neurotransmitters and so on if you
2:49:26do not have the the basic batteries
2:49:30required the rest of the things that are
2:49:33higher up on that pyramid can't really
2:49:37be executed properly so for me it's like
2:49:39okay let's say cockp punch doesn't do
2:49:41anything it's total failure right coming
2:49:43back to like it already raised $2
2:49:44million for Science and that science
2:49:46could be breakthrough science so so
2:49:49punch sorry I yelled sorry so punch
2:49:53is at least thus far a success it is but
2:49:57coming back to Seth Gooden's question I
2:49:59asked myself would I do this even if it
2:50:01turns out to be a complete failure
2:50:03financially and I was like yes because I
2:50:04think the relationships and the skills
2:50:07even if this quote unquote fails from
2:50:10the outside looking in those will
2:50:12transcend this project and be life
2:50:15affirming and helpful and fun in other
2:50:17areas and that's proven to be true even
2:50:19though the project is
2:50:20ongoing
2:50:22and I have more energy now because of
2:50:25this ridiculous project I'm very proud
2:50:28of the fiction actually this ridiculous
2:50:30project called punch people can
2:50:32find the legend of punch on uh any
2:50:35fine provider of podcasts and hired
2:50:38voice actors did the scripting the
2:50:40production I it hit number one fiction
2:50:43worldwide on Apple podcast for a while
2:50:44the whole thing's hilarious and um and
2:50:46if you could could you explain a little
2:50:48bit about the characters in Punch
2:50:50Yeah I gu who's who's punching who's
2:50:52yeah yeah or which are
2:50:54punching yeah which are punching
2:50:56which how does this work so here we go
2:51:00all right so Co The Legend Of punch
2:51:03takes place in this realm called varata
2:51:06and verata is being described through
2:51:09the
2:51:10narrator who we know as the seventh
2:51:12scribe we don't know much about the
2:51:14seventh scribe but the seventh scribe
2:51:15makes an appearance in episode one as
2:51:17the reliable but
2:51:19possibly sometimes unreliable narrator
2:51:21of this space and there's a there's a
2:51:23mind-bending Time component where
2:51:25there's something called restarts
2:51:27something like the edge of tomorrow if
2:51:28people have ever seen this movie where
2:51:30time restarts maybe like Groundhog Day
2:51:32time restarts and it's unclear as of yet
2:51:36in the story why that is the case but
2:51:38people basically snap into being they
2:51:40know who they are and what they do but
2:51:42they have no real memories to speak of
2:51:46so the world is constantly being
2:51:48constructed and pieced together by these
2:51:50scribes the seventh of which is the
2:51:53narrator so you can you you might read
2:51:55into this that I am a fan of fantasy
2:51:57tolken you name it URS Ursula kwinn the
2:52:01wizard of earthy Etc then there are
2:52:04eight
2:52:05primary houses these are the greater
2:52:07houses some might call them Clans and
2:52:10they have different
2:52:12characteristics just prior to this
2:52:14seventh scribe beginning his piecing
2:52:17together which turns into this story in
2:52:19the podcast there was a Waring States
2:52:20period this much he's been able to
2:52:22establish and the peacekeeping mechanism
2:52:26that was devised is something called the
2:52:28great games and the great games is a
2:52:33combat
2:52:34competition
2:52:36and the eight greater houses send their
2:52:39best fighters who've been vetted through
2:52:41preliminary competitions to the great
2:52:43games which is in the free trade zone
2:52:45which is this one place where all of the
2:52:46races mingle and trade and so
2:52:49on and all these characters happen to be
2:52:52anthropomorphized roosters so they have
2:52:57uh generally each one Gauntlet of some
2:53:00type and clearly they punch each other
2:53:03with this Gauntlet and they're many
2:53:04other types of weapons so the colloquial
2:53:07nickname for this Olympics of combat is
2:53:11punch and that is the that is the
2:53:14etymology uh so the scholars say of
2:53:18punch The Legend Of punch and
2:53:20there's a lot more to it and there are
2:53:21many wrinkles a lot of Easter eggs in
2:53:23this entire story the idea came to me
2:53:26and it started off as a bit of a farce
2:53:28right it was just going to be something
2:53:29funny see if it works maybe it raises
2:53:32some money very light lift but once I
2:53:35got into the fiction I started taking it
2:53:37super seriously so it's become very very
2:53:39elaborate it's become really really
2:53:41elaborate and I'm loving it it's great
2:53:44so who knows where it'll go I have no
2:53:46idea that's part of the reason why I
2:53:48called it an emergent long fiction
2:53:50project I didn't call it an nft project
2:53:52I was like this is an emergent long
2:53:53fiction project where I'm taking inputs
2:53:56from the audience I'm I'm watching very
2:53:58closely what people understand or don't
2:54:00understand or find interesting I'm
2:54:02looking at for instance what is
2:54:03generated when I host an an AI assisted
2:54:06art competition which I did with the
2:54:08fans and a lot of these bits and pieces
2:54:11get integrated in some fashion into this
2:54:13thing that chapter by chapter is
2:54:17coalescing so that's
2:54:19cockpunch amazing and I had to buy cockp
2:54:22punch.com in the at cockpunch
2:54:26Twitter you had to buy it from somebody
2:54:28oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah the whole
2:54:30process I don't want to ask what it was
2:54:31being used for prior to your purchasing
2:54:33it was not being used for uh Fantasy
2:54:36World building I'll put it that way got
2:54:37it amazing and for so many reasons I
2:54:41have so much to say about first of all
2:54:43your excitement about it is tangible
2:54:45yeah the energy you have around it is
2:54:49infectious um and while I don't want to
2:54:53go into the total um depth and Contour
2:54:56of uh what Paul kti has been telling me
2:54:59over the last week of preparing this
2:55:01mental health series about what's really
2:55:04great in life that we all should
2:55:06cultivate it has a lot to do with this
2:55:07generative Drive which has a lot to do
2:55:09with positive energy not just positive
2:55:11thinking but positive energy but this um
2:55:14this Triad of Peace contentment and
2:55:16delight and as you were explaining it
2:55:18it's clear that it brings you great
2:55:20peace contentment and Delight as action
2:55:22terms not like sit there and just hover
2:55:24in the Basking in it it's just so clear
2:55:26that this was a great idea um and I love
2:55:30that you started it as a way to kind of
2:55:33um uh I don't know like knock the fear
2:55:37out of yourself a little bit by knocking
2:55:38a little fear into the whole thing yeah
2:55:41like like what would happen if you let
2:55:42your mind go and and allowed yourself to
2:55:45explore this and and what permission
2:55:48would it by you if it's not a total
2:55:50disaster this is true for the 4-Hour
2:55:52Body too I'm like what if this partially
2:55:54works it's not even a home run but let's
2:55:56say I get on Bas what permission does
2:55:59this then buy me what other Impossibles
2:56:01in quotation marks am I willing to
2:56:03challenge and I was able to make the Hop
2:56:06from one category in the bookstore to a
2:56:08completely different category and then
2:56:10the sky's limit I was like I can do
2:56:12anything I can do whatever I want I've
2:56:13given myself permission and the market
2:56:15has given me permission but the most
2:56:16important first is you giving yourself
2:56:20permission and with say punch as
2:56:22ludicrous as it
2:56:24is now that I've done that my career
2:56:27hasn't ended hasn't had any negative
2:56:29impact on my career whatsoever I'm like
2:56:32okay that's actually kind of surprising
2:56:35to the contrary it seems like it gives
2:56:36you energy raised money for science is
2:56:39it still raising
2:56:40money is there still an opportunity for
2:56:43people to No it's contri it's sold out
2:56:46um if people want to contribute to to
2:56:48say the early stage science and let's
2:56:52just say specifically psychedelics I
2:56:53would say it's very very hard to get a
2:56:57very solid understanding of the field
2:57:02and the shifting Sands and the projects
2:57:05and so on it's it's very rapidly
2:57:06changing so I would say just provide
2:57:10money to a foundation that's already
2:57:11doing good work it could be riversticks
2:57:13Foundation it could be Beckley
2:57:15Foundation my Foundation Cay Foundation
2:57:17I think does pretty good work and Cay is
2:57:19not just the Jour uh the journalism
2:57:22fellowships they're also the it's
2:57:23funding for psychedelics oh there's tons
2:57:26of stuff there's a project page on Cay
2:57:28foundation.org you can see the projects
2:57:30they're probably 15 to 20 of them and
2:57:33they can see the basic science all the
2:57:35way from really basic science looking at
2:57:38possible mechanisms of action for
2:57:40something like dip which is a very
2:57:42strange compound that D yeah most people
2:57:45aren't going to know it that that
2:57:46produces
2:57:49profound auditory distortions and
2:57:51hallucinations in humans very hard to
2:57:54animal model
2:57:56and from that all the way up to really
2:57:59sophisticated Imaging studies from that
2:58:02to say at least a year or two ago
2:58:05supporting phase three trials for MDMA
2:58:07assisted Psychotherapy then the
2:58:09journalism then the this then the that
2:58:11but a lot of a lot of different uh
2:58:13scientific studies that are that are
2:58:15being supported so that's that's very
2:58:17exciting to me
2:58:18and but the the cockpunch side of things
2:58:20is all done Money's been distributed uh
2:58:24and maybe I'll do more of this kind of
2:58:26thing but I I might take a different
2:58:27approach I I feel like okay I learned
2:58:30what I feel I wanted to learn from that
2:58:34and maybe I'll try something new next
2:58:36time one thing's clear nobody tells you
2:58:39what to do um except you and but that's
2:58:43vetted through many important filters
2:58:45like structured filters and um
2:58:48very thoughtful filters are the words
2:58:50that come to mind when I think about
2:58:52yeah your process as you're sharing I
2:58:54one more thing which
2:58:56is one of the sources of Joy Of
2:59:00punch is that it is not over planned I
2:59:04set some initial conditions and now it's
2:59:07emerging and as someone who has hyper
2:59:12analyzed and meticulously planned most
2:59:15of my life for decades
2:59:19I think it's helpful to have an improv
2:59:22component so if you are a hyper planner
2:59:25if you're a hyper measurer if you like
2:59:27that degree of control maybe you should
2:59:29try something that's a little less
2:59:30controlled take an improv class try
2:59:33fiction writing do something that isn't
2:59:35totally scripted where you don't know
2:59:37the outcome I think it's really good
2:59:40medicine for people just like if you
2:59:42spend all your time in a yoga class
2:59:43maybe you should spend one day a week
2:59:46lifting weights see what that's like and
2:59:47if you spend all your time in the gym
2:59:49and you can barely touch your toes maybe
2:59:50you should do some more downward dog try
2:59:51some yoga similar I think the spectrum
2:59:55of hyper planned to completely free
2:59:59flowing and
3:00:00improv provides ample opportunity
3:00:04to uh enrich themselves and maybe
3:00:07address some weaknesses at the same time
3:00:08so for me punch has been incredibly
3:00:11therapeutic probably the first time that
3:00:14anyone has ever uttered that sentence
3:00:16but yes probably yeah but that's part of
3:00:18what makes it so cool yeah totally I
3:00:21love
3:00:22it I'm wondering if you'd be willing to
3:00:24share with us a little bit about your
3:00:28mindset um maybe even your motivation
3:00:31but um certainly your mindset around
3:00:33sharing some of the hard personal
3:00:36tribulations that you shared uh in
3:00:39preparation for this discussion today I
3:00:42went back to some of those posts that
3:00:43you did and the um podcasts that you did
3:00:47around this and um I listen to them at
3:00:49the time and um you know they deal with
3:00:52quite serious violations of childhood
3:00:56and of self and um they're hard I mean
3:00:59they're they're hard to listen to and I
3:01:01can only imagine they must be even far
3:01:05far harder to to experience and I was
3:01:09curious what led to your willingness to
3:01:11do that and
3:01:14um yeah I mean I have my own ideas about
3:01:17what might have motivated it but I'd
3:01:19like to hear it from you sure happy to
3:01:22talk about it uh and I think there are
3:01:24two particular examples that come to
3:01:26mind so one is my near suicide in
3:01:31college and uh if people search some
3:01:35practical thoughts on suicide and my
3:01:37name it'll pop right up I mean if you
3:01:39just
3:01:40search my name and suicide it'll
3:01:42probably pop right up pretty well
3:01:44indexed at this point which is very
3:01:46deliberate people can look at the URL
3:01:49structure for a little wink and uh hat
3:01:52tip uh it'll tell you something about
3:01:56optimizing for Google if you look at it
3:01:58I'll just tell you the URL is spells out
3:02:01how to commit suicide but clearly I'm
3:02:02not teaching people how to commit
3:02:03suicide but I wanted that to be a
3:02:06Honeypot for some of that traffic uh
3:02:09because it's a lot easier now to find
3:02:11that type of practical implementation
3:02:13advice and it's a bit harder to find I
3:02:16think compelling
3:02:18vention so first of all if you're
3:02:21feeling suicide obviously call Suicide
3:02:22Hotline please right uh that's sometimes
3:02:26the last thing that people want to hear
3:02:28when they are in a place of suicidal
3:02:30ideation and the reason I ended up
3:02:34writing a long post about this which was
3:02:36terrifying to write because I had never
3:02:39told my parents I had never told my
3:02:42closest friends this was a secret this
3:02:44is a dark dark secret and
3:02:50I wrote about it
3:02:51because I went to an event in San
3:02:55Francisco I was interviewed on stage by
3:02:57Jason calanis who's a friend and a very
3:02:59good
3:03:01interviewer at an event and after I got
3:03:05off stage a bunch of people approached
3:03:07me and I was saying hi and taking photos
3:03:09and signing things and so
3:03:12on and there was one young man there
3:03:15very well-dressed uh which isn't really
3:03:18relevant I just it was striking cuz in
3:03:19San Francisco sometimes people are very
3:03:22underdressed and he was he had dressed
3:03:24up for it like he' taken it seriously
3:03:25and he was in a suit and tie and he
3:03:29asked me if I could sign a book for his
3:03:31brother
3:03:32and I said sure no problem and I asked
3:03:36him what would you like me to write to
3:03:37your brother and he kind of blanked he
3:03:39didn't kind of blank he totally blanked
3:03:41but the look behind his eyes
3:03:43was unusual it wasn't just I don't know
3:03:47what to say blank there was something
3:03:49else behind it and I could tell that he
3:03:51felt under
3:03:52pressure and I said no problem take your
3:03:55time I tell you what I'll just chat with
3:03:56a couple of other people and I'll sign
3:03:58the book no problem I'm not going
3:04:00anywhere and chatted with the other
3:04:03folks and then he asked if he could just
3:04:06walk me to the elevator and then I could
3:04:07sign the book I was like sure and he
3:04:10explained to
3:04:11me as I walked to the elevator how his
3:04:16brother had been a huge fan of mine and
3:04:21that I'd really kept his brother afloat
3:04:23for a long time and eventually his
3:04:24brother killed himself and that they'
3:04:28kept his room exactly how it was and he
3:04:31wanted me to sign the book so that he
3:04:33could put the book in his brother's
3:04:36room
3:04:39and he asked me if I'd ever considered
3:04:43talking about mental health and mental
3:04:45health challenges publicly because he
3:04:47thought it would really help a lot of
3:04:48people and that just I mean I'm like
3:04:52feeling myself tear up right now I mean
3:04:54it's it it was so crushing to hear the
3:04:56story and totally unbeknownst to him I
3:05:01had a lot of history with depressive
3:05:04episodes and when I say near suicide I
3:05:07had it on the calendar I had a plan I
3:05:09was going to kill myself I knew exactly
3:05:10how I was going to do it I knew where I
3:05:11was going to do it I knew all of the
3:05:14variables that I needed to account for
3:05:16to get it done and
3:05:19and the only reason that didn't happen
3:05:21for people who don't have the contacts
3:05:22which most people W is I had tried to
3:05:26reserve a book at Firestone Library this
3:05:28is at Princeton which had something to
3:05:31do with suicide it was like assisted
3:05:32suicide like the the clinicians guide to
3:05:35euthanasia something like that and it
3:05:38wasn't
3:05:39in and I had forgotten to change my
3:05:42address at the register office I was
3:05:44taking a year away from
3:05:46school and that was to focus on
3:05:48finishing my thesis it was to try a few
3:05:50jobs but ID ended up in a very bad place
3:05:53and was feeling very isolated and my
3:05:55friends were graduating a year ahead of
3:05:57me and I was stuck on this thesis and
3:05:58there's a lot of backstory that I won't
3:06:00bore people with but it got to the point
3:06:04where I decided not that objectively
3:06:08objectively my life is bad I think this
3:06:09is where people who haven't experienced
3:06:11depression get a little confused or it's
3:06:14hard for them to identify when they give
3:06:15advice to a depressed person because you
3:06:18might say to a depressed person like but
3:06:19look your life is so great like there's
3:06:21this there's that there's this and for a
3:06:24lot of depressed people to say yeah I
3:06:25know I look at that and I can't fix my
3:06:28state because I am broken and if this is
3:06:31how I'm going to have to live forever
3:06:33with being this broken and dysfunctional
3:06:36and to have this internal hell that I
3:06:39live day by
3:06:41day I just want to escape it's like
3:06:44someone jumping out of a burning
3:06:46building it's like they don't want to
3:06:47kill themselves but they're jumping out
3:06:48of a burning building
3:06:51and so I had it on the calendar and
3:06:55thank God this was back when they would
3:06:57still send you a physical reminder in
3:06:58the mail a little postcard that says
3:07:00your book is in and that card went to my
3:07:04parents house and my mom saw it and
3:07:06panicked and called me and I lied I said
3:07:10it was for a friend who went to Rutgers
3:07:11who was doing a project on AB andc but
3:07:13it's it was just enough to kind of snap
3:07:15me out of the trance and realize that
3:07:19killing yourself is like putting on a
3:07:20suicide vest with explosives and walking
3:07:23into a room of all the people you care
3:07:24the most about and and blowing yourself
3:07:26up so that snapped me out of it but no
3:07:30one knew this this guy certainly didn't
3:07:32know
3:07:32that and that is when I went home and
3:07:37thought about it and just
3:07:39decided
3:07:41okay there's a chance if I write this
3:07:44it's not certain but there's a chance
3:07:45that this might help someone it might
3:07:48prevent someone from doing what I was
3:07:50almost about to
3:07:51do and so I spent months getting this
3:07:55post written and put it out and I and I
3:07:58know for a fact it has saved minimum
3:08:01dozens of lives and there are other
3:08:03things including a
3:08:05very extensive list of
3:08:09resources and uh so that gave
3:08:14me I suppose uh not a toe in the water
3:08:17but sort of jumping feet first into the
3:08:19deep end and experience of being that
3:08:21vulnerable and this was a long time ago
3:08:23I mean this is I want to say at least
3:08:26eight to 10 years ago when I put that
3:08:27post out and
3:08:30uh then uh I want to say it was just
3:08:35before covid
3:08:38lockdown I was in Costa Rica visiting a
3:08:41friend I was with my girlfriend at the
3:08:43time and she knew a secret of mine and
3:08:47she was one of maybe two or three people
3:08:49who knew that i' had been sexually
3:08:52abused when I was a kid by babysitter's
3:08:54son from 2 to four
3:08:56roughly and
3:08:59routinely all the time kind of thing
3:09:02and like what you're envisioning is is
3:09:05is is is what happens so it was not
3:09:08good and that had been compartmentalized
3:09:11and locked away for my whole
3:09:13life I was like that's in the past we're
3:09:17Focus on moving
3:09:19forward and uh nothing to be fixed
3:09:22nothing to fix and that was my my
3:09:25perspective on
3:09:27things
3:09:28uh it turned out wasn't quite that
3:09:32simple right and so I had done a lot of
3:09:36work a lot of therapy used psychedelic
3:09:38assist therapies as
3:09:40well uh which once again are not all
3:09:43upside potential there are some
3:09:44significant risks
3:09:47but I had come a long way and my plan
3:09:50had always been to wait until my parents
3:09:52passed because I didn't want them to
3:09:54blame themselves for
3:09:56this and then to write a book
3:09:59and there was something though at the
3:10:02time when I was having dinner with my
3:10:03girlfriend that was dissatisfying about
3:10:06that plan it there's something about it
3:10:08that bothered me and I couldn't quite
3:10:09put a finger on it and I was talking to
3:10:10her about it and she said that's going
3:10:14to take a long time she's like have you
3:10:15ever thought about how many people
3:10:17people are going to pass away or die or
3:10:23suffer between now and when you publish
3:10:25that
3:10:26book and
3:10:29uh I thought about it and it was at that
3:10:33dinner that I decided to at least record
3:10:35a
3:10:37podcast covering this terrain I was not
3:10:40at all convinced that I wanted to
3:10:42publish it I I I was terrified of
3:10:44publishing it also because it meant open
3:10:47myself up to a lot of
3:10:51conversations or maybe just uh hurtful
3:10:55commentary online who knows like people
3:10:57are there are a lot of idiots out there
3:10:59and a lot of otherwise fine people who
3:11:01are idiots on the internet so it's very
3:11:03hesitant ultimately decided I I didn't
3:11:06want to do it as a oneman show I didn't
3:11:09want to make it a monologue so I asked
3:11:13my friend Debbie
3:11:14milman who had been on my podcast she's
3:11:17amazing graphic designer and
3:11:19teacher but she had unexpectedly on my
3:11:22podcast based on some of my
3:11:23questions for the first time publicly
3:11:26told her story about being sexually
3:11:28abused and so I had leaned on her in
3:11:31years after that in private and I asked
3:11:36her if she'd be willing to have a
3:11:37conversation with me about
3:11:39our respective Journeys and what it felt
3:11:44like what it looked like what helped
3:11:46what didn't help what worked what didn't
3:11:48to provide at the very least a glimmer
3:11:50of hope for people
3:11:52who were keeping some of these dark
3:11:54secrets or contending with them not
3:11:57knowing what to do with them and we had
3:11:59that conversation and I sat on it I sat
3:12:02on it I sat on it and then I put it out
3:12:07and decided in advance that I would not
3:12:11look at any social media for at least
3:12:12several weeks
3:12:14afterwards if my team saw anything on
3:12:16social media or got email I didn't want
3:12:17to see anything other than positive
3:12:19feedback which is not my deao I I'm
3:12:24usually eager to solicit constructive
3:12:27feedback but in this case I I knew that
3:12:30my own position was too vulnerable I I I
3:12:34I didn't want
3:12:36to open up the possibility of of
3:12:40destabilizing
3:12:42myself and I put it out
3:12:45and I think it's the most important
3:12:47podcast I've ever put out so I kind of
3:12:50felt like my job was done from a
3:12:51podcasting perspective after that
3:12:56and it's been incredibly gratifying I
3:13:00think it has certainly helped a fair
3:13:03number of people and it was also really
3:13:05hard because what I didn't anticipate
3:13:07was I would say of
3:13:10my really super high performing close
3:13:14male friends
3:13:19maybe half reached out to me to tell
3:13:24someone for the first time about their
3:13:26extremely awful graphic firsthand
3:13:29experience of being sexually abused the
3:13:31percentages were mind-blowing like the
3:13:34the actual percentages were super super
3:13:36super high uh which is part of the
3:13:39reason I mentioned earlier I think it's
3:13:41good to spend a little bit of time in
3:13:43those empty spaces to see you know am I
3:13:47in a positive energetic sense pursuing
3:13:49something good or am I running away from
3:13:51demons whipping my back
3:13:55and for a lot of those guys I'm sure
3:13:58it's true for a lot of women too like
3:14:00they they find
3:14:04medication through intense focus and
3:14:09achievement uh which is super adaptive
3:14:11in a lot of ways but it doesn't always
3:14:14have lifetime reliability
3:14:17[Music]
3:14:19and that's the
3:14:21story um it's impossible to hear those
3:14:24stories your story without um feeling
3:14:27some substantial emotion I'm not trying
3:14:30to intellectualize it's
3:14:33um both both of those uh aspects of your
3:14:37history that you shared are huge they
3:14:39really are they're obviously huge for
3:14:41you and and they're huge in terms of the
3:14:43positive impact in the world I I know
3:14:46this because
3:14:47um I have read the comments right and I
3:14:51and I've talked to people who have
3:14:54listened to those podcasts and read
3:14:56those blogs and um and have similar or
3:15:00maybe different stories of trauma but I
3:15:02think uh as with your work in the
3:15:04Psychedelic space as with your work in
3:15:07um the physical augmentation space
3:15:09whatever you want to call it um it's
3:15:12apparent that you're willing to be first
3:15:14man in on a lot of things and really
3:15:16make you're sitting alone there in those
3:15:18moments and uh these categories of
3:15:21revealing trauma are in my mind anyway
3:15:24so much more substantial in terms of
3:15:26their impact positive impact and the
3:15:29other aspects forour body and
3:15:31psychedelic work etc is also
3:15:33tremendously impactful so that's saying
3:15:35a lot so just want to say thank you for
3:15:38for your uh bravery and um thanks Andrew
3:15:41yeah it's um it's crazy because I think
3:15:44that a lot of people um
3:15:47can imagine telling a story or to a
3:15:50close friend or something but you know
3:15:51to put it out into the world you know
3:15:53it's like it's huge like you don't know
3:15:55how that's going to Ripple um and you've
3:15:57been a real Pioneer and example for uh
3:16:00for me for for LAX for other people and
3:16:03revealing things not like that um but
3:16:05different and Peter AA has recently been
3:16:08opening up about some serious challenges
3:16:10that he's had in his in his book he does
3:16:12that on podcast he's been doing it so um
3:16:15you know yet another category
3:16:17um arguably the most important category
3:16:20for um exploration and sharing and you
3:16:23know thoughtful bravery right because
3:16:25you didn't just put it out there in any
3:16:26form so uh one thing I do know by
3:16:29experience is there's nothing weirder
3:16:31than being uh told thank you for the
3:16:33painful thing that you did so I don't
3:16:35want to push that too far but I'd be
3:16:36remiss if I didn't because it it really
3:16:38has its impact and for doing it again
3:16:39here today because um so yeah that huge
3:16:43thanks for doing that yeah my my
3:16:45pleasure and I also say you know I got
3:16:48advice from
3:16:49a very very experienced uh psychedelic
3:16:53facilitator at one point who
3:16:57said take the pain to make it part of
3:16:59your
3:17:00medicine and the way I think that
3:17:03applies
3:17:04here
3:17:06is we all experience pain we all
3:17:09experience
3:17:10suffering many of us have experienced
3:17:13trauma of one type or
3:17:15another and
3:17:17that can consume you I mean it can
3:17:20consume you but it's like fire right it
3:17:22can consume you but you can also harness
3:17:24it and use it for different things
3:17:27and I know for I think it's I'm not
3:17:31going to hedge I'll say I know for a
3:17:32fact that there are people I've spoken
3:17:34to who are suicidal and by the way I'm
3:17:37not inviting everyone who's listening if
3:17:40you are suicidal to reach out to because
3:17:42it won't work I've had to disengage from
3:17:44that because it gets too heavy right
3:17:46just to engage one-onone with people who
3:17:47are suicidal but there are resources in
3:17:50that post Dimension the Practical
3:17:51thoughts on
3:17:54suicide but let's just talk about closer
3:17:56friends people you would never suspect
3:17:59in a million years who were this close
3:18:01to blowing their brains
3:18:04out people folks would recognize in some
3:18:08cases the fact that I was also there
3:18:11once is why they listen to me because I
3:18:14have unfortunately I'm a sub matter
3:18:17expert right I have
3:18:18credibility and that actually is very
3:18:21redeeming it provides some meaning to
3:18:24the suffering that I experienced it's
3:18:25like okay here I am for whatever host of
3:18:30reasons I am put in this place and time
3:18:32with this
3:18:33person and they don't trust the input of
3:18:37these other people they're talking to
3:18:38because those people don't know what
3:18:40it's like but I can look at this person
3:18:42in the eye and be like oh I
3:18:45know and that's just a different thing
3:18:48so you can you can find a way to
3:18:51transmute that pain
3:18:55into something meaningful into a gift
3:18:58that hopefully you can share in some
3:19:01way not necessarily with the whole wide
3:19:04world just one person that's a big deal
3:19:07one person's a big deal there's a lot
3:19:09out there that is intended for Mass
3:19:11consumption that gets in front of
3:19:12millions of people doesn't really impact
3:19:14a single person very much so even if you
3:19:17don't have podcast you don't have books
3:19:19if you have the ability to sit down with
3:19:20one person and really make an impact
3:19:22that's actually more meaningful than
3:19:24most of the crap that gets put out there
3:19:26so take heart Amen to
3:19:31that i' like to spend a little bit of
3:19:33time talking about the roles you see
3:19:36yourself in you know I I had this list
3:19:39coming in here of okay you've done the
3:19:41um exploration of the health sphere you
3:19:44um self- experimentation you
3:19:47you're uh you've been an investor you
3:19:50are an investor you're podcaster you're
3:19:53you know I think these are more than
3:19:55titles I I
3:19:57think titles are great but titles are
3:20:00what we get from other people telling us
3:20:02what we do or deciding what we do
3:20:05um I'm more interested in how you think
3:20:09about yourself like your your own role
3:20:12identity and you know I have to assume
3:20:14you've spent a little bit of time on
3:20:15this like if when we to go through the
3:20:17the the checklist of possible roles yeah
3:20:20right okay I confess I do this I think
3:20:22like okay like I I think I call I think
3:20:24I check the box of animal because we're
3:20:26we're animals after all and we're you
3:20:27know humans you still pole dancing I
3:20:29think he's a pole dancer absolutely not
3:20:32um are you still Tango dancing I'm
3:20:36planning on getting back into it great
3:20:38that that does have some background I
3:20:40have Argentine lineage and I'm
3:20:41embarrassed to say I don't Tang uh know
3:20:43Tango but you got the you got the mate
3:20:46in the in the green room so you're s my
3:20:48my uh grandparents uh Tango into their
3:20:5180s I think late ' 80s yeah late 80s
3:20:54yeah ate steak and smoked cigarettes and
3:20:57uh lived until their 90s artine dieted
3:20:59Champions exactly um but I'm curious
3:21:03about the roles that you see yourself in
3:21:05like you know um role identity to me is
3:21:08so important um in terms of where we see
3:21:11ourselves now and where we see ourselves
3:21:13going forward and who knows maybe you
3:21:14don't have any Ro identity plan but you
3:21:17know what are some boxes that you see
3:21:19yourself in now that you really strongly
3:21:21identify with and then what are some
3:21:24boxes that um you'd like to check off
3:21:26going
3:21:27forward so current
3:21:31boxes I would say the two that I
3:21:33probably identify with
3:21:35most maybe
3:21:37three but I I'll I'll focus on two
3:21:41experimentalist which can take a lot of
3:21:43forms that can that can apply to a whole
3:21:47lot of different spheres so
3:21:50experimentalist and then
3:21:52teacher and for the longest
3:21:55time long long time I thought eventually
3:21:58I would go back and actually be a ninth
3:22:00grade teacher because I feel like that
3:22:02is such a critical window for so many
3:22:04kids where they can either hit an
3:22:08inflection point and go in a really good
3:22:09direction or they can go in a really bad
3:22:11Direction and I certainly saw that on
3:22:13Long Long Island with a lot of my
3:22:14friends a lot of overdoses bunch of
3:22:17friends who have died
3:22:18of opiate addiction and various things
3:22:21and I had some intervention with mentors
3:22:23early on that that sort of flipped the
3:22:27switch on the railroad track and sent me
3:22:29in a different direction so I thought
3:22:30for a long time I would go back and be a
3:22:32ninth grade teacher and my impulse to
3:22:36experiment leads to enthusiasm for
3:22:38teaching if that makes any sense because
3:22:41I feel
3:22:43like as good as I might be or decent at
3:22:46taking a complex subject deconstructing
3:22:49it applying 820 putting things in order
3:22:53and learning things very quickly uh
3:22:57which
3:22:58includes stress testing assumptions in
3:23:02that uh sort of assumed progression for
3:23:05skill like language learning there's so
3:23:07many myths in language learning as an
3:23:11example if it takes me say six months to
3:23:14become reasonably competent in field X I
3:23:18can usually get other people to that
3:23:20same point of competence in a third of
3:23:22that time so for me it's very gratifying
3:23:25to teach and I view all the books as
3:23:28teaching tools I'm no totoy I recognize
3:23:31I'm not the world's greatest writer I
3:23:33take the writing
3:23:34seriously uh I don't have asset I do
3:23:37many many many revisions even for
3:23:39punch it's like 27 revisions for a short
3:23:42story called cockp so I take it
3:23:45seriously but I recognize that I'm not
3:23:47the world's
3:23:50greatest
3:23:52Wordsmith but I am looking for
3:23:56outcomes in readers or listeners and I
3:24:00view my job as that of teacher so I'd
3:24:01say experimentalist and teacher of the
3:24:03two
3:24:05and those both go a long way
3:24:09and applies to say dog training you know
3:24:13lots ran lots of experiments and then
3:24:16for was listening to him just looked
3:24:17under the table one thing I should have
3:24:19said at the beginning and I did not is
3:24:21that um this is the first H Lab podcast
3:24:25to feature a guest who brought their dog
3:24:27so we have Molly is here as well and
3:24:30we're absolutely delighted uh there has
3:24:33not been a dog at on the hubman Lab
3:24:35podcast since uh Costello passed away
3:24:38and uh I'm you know practically floating
3:24:42in in Delight that Molly's here today
3:24:44she's she's amazing and you've done
3:24:45amazing job training her too so thank
3:24:47you yeah she's she's laying right next
3:24:49to my feet licking my hand as I speak so
3:24:52good and I'd say if I were to expand
3:24:54that by one I would probably say explore
3:24:57but the exploring goes hand inand with
3:24:59the
3:25:01experimentation uh so that could be
3:25:04Geographic exploration it could be
3:25:07spending time with people who are
3:25:08excellent at
3:25:11anything in any field MH and seeing
3:25:15where that gingerbread Trail leads me
3:25:19and I think the the the exploration and
3:25:21the experimentation are for me bed
3:25:25fellows they go
3:25:27together what about roles that you would
3:25:30like to explore or potentially see
3:25:33yourself in I mean I don't have a magic
3:25:35wand but if I did as a fellow podcaster
3:25:37and I consider you a friend uh I would
3:25:40say okay like if I could wand you to the
3:25:43success in given role that wouldn't be
3:25:45the way it would work that wouldn't be
3:25:46as gratifying as having to figure it all
3:25:48out cuz that's part of your your
3:25:50Machinery uh as you just told us so yeah
3:25:53what are some role life roles that
3:25:55you're interested in expanding and uh or
3:25:58stepping into that you haven't explore
3:25:59I'd say more more artists more
3:26:02Artistry especially in the
3:26:05visual sense because I wanted to be a
3:26:08comic book pencor for a really long time
3:26:10got paid as an illustrator uh towards
3:26:12the end of high school and during
3:26:14college so Illustrated books and
3:26:15magazines and so on then I just dropped
3:26:17it I dropped it when I graduated because
3:26:19I was kid stuff and it was time to get
3:26:20serious and be an adult and I just cold
3:26:22turkey just stopped all of it and so the
3:26:23skills have atrophied a lot but there's
3:26:26still there's still a bit in there I've
3:26:29seen some posts on Instagram that were
3:26:31yeah quite good so I'm still messing
3:26:32around I'm still messing around and
3:26:34especially when I have some structure I
3:26:36do well so I'd like to pursue that I
3:26:39would like to experiment with animation
3:26:43so I don't know if animator would be the
3:26:45right label CU I most likely would not
3:26:47be doing the animation myself but
3:26:49playing a role in visual art would be
3:26:52one uh father would be another one
3:26:56eventually and uh try not to be attached
3:26:59to it
3:27:00but we all play games of various types
3:27:04and if we get really good at certain
3:27:05games that are socially rewarded then
3:27:07you make money doing a podc or investing
3:27:11or whatever might be but when
3:27:15my when when when the sort of ramp of my
3:27:18learning starts to flatten out a bit I
3:27:21tend to get bored of those games and I
3:27:24think that certainly one of the biggest
3:27:29adventures must be Parenthood so at some
3:27:33point I think father would be on there
3:27:38and I should say this is very judgmental
3:27:39of me to say but I think there's a big
3:27:41difference between wanting
3:27:42to wanting to be a parent and wanting to
3:27:45have kids
3:27:46I'm I'm very cautious about saying I
3:27:49want to have kids because that doesn't
3:27:50automatically imply you want to be a
3:27:51good parent which is also why I thought
3:27:55it was very important for me to spend a
3:27:57lot of time training
3:27:58Molly and a lot of learning there right
3:28:01yeah to she's like all right am I going
3:28:03to do the heavy lifting and the hard
3:28:05work recognizing that kids are not
3:28:08deferred dogs but I do think there
3:28:11actually a lot of similarities uh in
3:28:14terms of just predictive ability if you
3:28:17see someone who has dogs that are
3:28:19terribly
3:28:20trained look at their kids you might see
3:28:23some similarity my my good friend um my
3:28:26good friend I'll out him here who's a
3:28:28mdp is their chair of Opthalmology at
3:28:31Stanford Jeff Goldberg I once asked him
3:28:33if he has any pets and he said that he
3:28:36and his wife had three children as
3:28:37preparation for having a dog that's
3:28:40there is there's a quote also from a
3:28:42book called Don't Shoot the dog which is
3:28:44terrible title but excellent book
3:28:46written by Karen PRI who was a an
3:28:49aquatic mammal trainer so she's training
3:28:52dolphins and whales and so on which
3:28:54don't respond to negative reinforcement
3:28:57you can't really hit them with a rolled
3:28:58up newspaper if they don't do what you
3:29:00want and there's a quote in that
3:29:03book which is something along the lines
3:29:05of I can't remember the attributions
3:29:06another trainer and it was people should
3:29:09not be allowed to have children until
3:29:11they've successfully trained a
3:29:14chicken because also chickens like they
3:29:17they just don't have the brain power to
3:29:18respond to uh much negative
3:29:22reinforcements so you have to coax them
3:29:24to do what you want them to do with
3:29:25positive
3:29:26reinforcement and I mean Opera in
3:29:29classical conditioning it's kind of same
3:29:30Sam across the board uh whether you're
3:29:32like uh the CIA trying to train
3:29:34cockroaches to flip light switches not
3:29:36making that one up by the way or
3:29:38training will or training a cat or
3:29:40training a human uh training sounds bad
3:29:44cultivating a wonderful human yeah then
3:29:47I think there's a lot to be learned
3:29:48across the board so I've successfully
3:29:51proven to myself that I can keep a dog
3:29:53alive and happy yeah and train up
3:29:55another happy nervous system yeah you
3:29:58know curate another nervous system
3:30:00that's a big deal oh yeah well she's
3:30:02also like my external nervous system so
3:30:04we we sort of work in tandem I pay a lot
3:30:07of attention to how she relates to
3:30:09different people I saw earlier today I
3:30:12mean as someone who is the owner of a
3:30:13Bulldog Mastiff who knew one command
3:30:16which was weight which is which is the
3:30:18the by default the easiest thing to
3:30:19train a bulldog because it when when you
3:30:22by the way folks if you stop a bulldog
3:30:24on the street to scratch them and they
3:30:25look delighted they might like you but
3:30:27chances are they're just really relieved
3:30:29that they get to
3:30:30stop
3:30:32so and um Costello he had a forbrain and
3:30:36he was smart about what he need to be
3:30:37smart about but Molly is exceptional
3:30:40like she knows where she needs to be and
3:30:42she's super connected to you and she
3:30:43knows a ton of commands it was
3:30:45ridiculous staff was like delighting in
3:30:47the number of things that Tim could get
3:30:49her to do just by looking at her yeah
3:30:51yeah yeah she's uh she's also quite calm
3:30:56out of the
3:30:57box uh which helps although it makes it
3:31:00harder in some respects to train because
3:31:02she doesn't have much food drive she
3:31:04liked those Maui Nei sticks we ma sticks
3:31:06yeah she loves the Maui NE venison
3:31:08sticks but
3:31:10she well okay I'll I'll give I'll say
3:31:12two things so first is if your dog is a
3:31:14spaz about food that's actually great
3:31:16news it will make your dog very easy to
3:31:18train in some respects uh read don't
3:31:21shoot the dog it's it's excellent and
3:31:24there are some others I could recommend
3:31:25I had a woman named Su uh Susan Garrett
3:31:28on my podcast because I wanted an
3:31:31objective measure of successful dog
3:31:33training and competitors have objective
3:31:36measures so she was an a dog agility
3:31:38Champion for many years which has a lot
3:31:41of metrics so anyway I had her on for
3:31:43people who are interested but the
3:31:46the the tip that I got from one dog
3:31:48trainer early on because I was trying to
3:31:50train Molly and I was using just some of
3:31:52her kibble I'd like put some kibble in a
3:31:53bag and carried around and she was like
3:31:56what are you doing and I said what do
3:31:57you mean what am I doing she's like is
3:31:58that kibble I'm like yeah it's kibble
3:32:01and she goes she's like hey pal she's
3:32:03like you're at a crowded bar you got a
3:32:04tip with 20s nice to get your dog's
3:32:06attention you take your to the dog park
3:32:09it's like squirrels other dogs grass
3:32:11piss on the pavement whatever it happens
3:32:13to be you have to have good treats so if
3:32:15your dog isn't responding chances are
3:32:16maybe you're trying to tip with singles
3:32:18I love it I love it well thank you for
3:32:21sharing the roles you see yourself in
3:32:23and the ones that you'd like to step
3:32:26into more uh I certainly feel I have the
3:32:28jurisdiction to say that you are an
3:32:31exceptional experimentalist and a
3:32:33phenomenal teacher we've seen this
3:32:36across so many you're welcome and and
3:32:38I'm not just speaking for myself I'm
3:32:39speaking speaking for so many other
3:32:41people as well we've seen this across so
3:32:43many domains it's like blogging podcast
3:32:46in book writing stage lecturing being a
3:32:49guest on a podcast you know and on and
3:32:51on and um in terms of the roles that you
3:32:55want to expand into more I can't wait to
3:32:58see the illustrations that that emerge
3:33:01yeah please do uh grow that flame
3:33:03because I I'm excited for what comes out
3:33:05um punch being um just the first of
3:33:09them leading the charge yeah um and uh
3:33:13you know I can say because I know uh
3:33:17because I have one and because I um uh
3:33:20have observed many uh kids and friends
3:33:22uh who are fathers you're going to be an
3:33:24exceptional father I'm absolutely
3:33:27confident of that yeah I appreciate that
3:33:31yeah and I want to say thanks for taking
3:33:33the time to talk with me today I've been
3:33:35looking forward to this so much my team
3:33:37knows this wait we were sort of buzzing
3:33:39like you we've had some Heavy Hitters on
3:33:41this podcast you know uh we only look to
3:33:45the top 1% in field and they are you
3:33:48know incredibly credentialed by whatever
3:33:50standards we happen to be exploring and
3:33:52they have to be people people that I
3:33:54really want to talk to so um I have so
3:33:58much respect for what you do and the way
3:34:00you do it uh you certainly inspired me
3:34:03this podcast would not exist I don't
3:34:05think the genre of podcasting would
3:34:07exist and look the way that it does had
3:34:09you not made the decision to start
3:34:12podcasting and um in anticipation of
3:34:15this episode did put out a ping on
3:34:16Twitter for questions and there were
3:34:18many many of them um that maybe we'll do
3:34:20a Q&A sometime maybe not who knows but
3:34:23you know one of the questions that
3:34:24really stood out to me was you know how
3:34:26does Tim feel about all these other
3:34:27people coming into all the spaces that
3:34:29he's worked and doing um successful work
3:34:32that builds off so much of what he's
3:34:34done and uh I'll let you answer but for
3:34:37me I can say that um I've been
3:34:39positively inspired and built so much of
3:34:41what we've been doing here and um and
3:34:44what I think about based on the ways
3:34:46that you've podcasted and communicate
3:34:48with the public to maintain your stance
3:34:49and integrity in the way that you
3:34:51interact with people it's really
3:34:53inspiring and you've always been so
3:34:55gracious to me and uh so humble and so
3:34:57giving and um and at the same time I
3:35:00know there's a fierce guy in there who
3:35:01likes to get it done so once again
3:35:03thanks for being first man in thanks for
3:35:06taking on all the roles that you have
3:35:08and that you are and that you will and
3:35:10thanks for being a giver we all benefit
3:35:13thanks
3:35:14Andrew uh really appreciate you saying
3:35:16all that
3:35:18and I want people to just get after it
3:35:23take things seriously have fun and be
3:35:25really really good so watching for
3:35:28instance what you've done which has been
3:35:30so spectacular so well executed makes me
3:35:34super happy and I don't view anyone as
3:35:40competition uh in the podcasting world
3:35:42for instance in the book world I don't
3:35:44view it that way either
3:35:47and I just hope that people keep
3:35:50experimenting pushing the
3:35:52envelope and if people aren't say
3:35:57getting better over time if people
3:35:58aren't following who are substantially
3:36:00better than me in all of these ways uh
3:36:03then I would be super disappointed so
3:36:05every time I see someone doing something
3:36:06really impressive or doing something I
3:36:08never would have thought of I get so
3:36:11extremely excited I I find it really fun
3:36:13to watch so appreciate you also just
3:36:17getting out there and hard charging and
3:36:19taking your podcast as seriously as you
3:36:21do I mean I I've seen the notes I've
3:36:23seen the setup I met the team it's it's
3:36:26very inspiring for me also makes me want
3:36:29to dust off my cleats and get back on
3:36:32the field so oh man you've never left
3:36:34the field and you've had a hand in it
3:36:35all so thank you so much and um hope
3:36:38you'll come back and visit us again here
3:36:41yeah I hope so it's been a real pleasure
3:36:43I've been looking forward to this for a
3:36:45long time time as well and I appreciate
3:36:48you inviting me on till next time till
3:36:51next time man thank you for joining me
3:36:53for today's discussion with Tim Ferris I
3:36:55hope you found it to be as informative
3:36:57and as actionable as I did for links to
3:36:59Tim's books as well as for a link to his
3:37:02weekly blog please see the show note
3:37:04captions you'll also find a link to
3:37:05Tim's podcast the Tim Ferris podcast and
3:37:08I highly recommend that you subscribe
3:37:10and listen to the Tim Ferris podcast if
3:37:13you're learning from Andor enjoying this
3:37:14podcast please subscribe to our YouTube
3:37:16channel that's a terrific zero cost way
3:37:18to support us in addition please
3:37:20subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify
3:37:22and apple and on both Spotify and apple
3:37:24you can leave us up to a five-star
3:37:26review if you have questions for me or
3:37:28comments about the podcast or guests
3:37:30that you'd like me to include on the
3:37:31hubman Lab podcast please put those in
3:37:34the comment section on YouTube I do read
3:37:36all the comments please also check out
3:37:38the sponsors mention at the beginning
3:37:39and throughout today's episode that's
3:37:41the best way to support this podcast not
3:37:44on today's episode but on many previous
3:37:45episodes of The hubman Lab podcast we
3:37:47discuss supplements while supplements
3:37:49aren't necessary for everybody many
3:37:51people derive tremendous benefit from
3:37:52them for things like enhancing sleep for
3:37:54hormone support and for Focus the
3:37:56ubberman Lab podcast is proud to have
3:37:58partnered with momentous supplements to
3:38:00see the supplements discussed on the
3:38:01hubman Lab podcast go to live momentus
3:38:03spelled ous so that's liv.com huberman
3:38:07again that's liv.com
3:38:09huberman if you're not already following
3:38:11us on social media I am huberman lab on
3:38:14Instagram Twitter Facebook and Linkedin
3:38:16and at all those places I discuss
3:38:18science and science related tools some
3:38:20of which overlaps with the content of
3:38:21the hubman Lab podcast but much of which
3:38:24often does not overlap with the content
3:38:26of the hubman Lab podcast so again it's
3:38:27huberman lab on all social media
3:38:29Platforms in addition if you haven't
3:38:32subscribed to our neural network
3:38:33newsletter it's a zeroc cost monthly
3:38:35newsletter that provides summaries of
3:38:37podcast episodes as well as toolkits for
3:38:40instance toolkits for optimizing sleep
3:38:42or toolkits for learning in
3:38:43neuroplasticity or for deliberate cold
3:38:45Expos exposure for dopamine and on and
3:38:46on to sign up for the neural network
3:38:48newsletter simply go to hubman lab.com
3:38:50go to the menu scroll down to newsletter
3:38:52and provide your email we do not share
3:38:54your email with anybody thank you once
3:38:56again for joining me for today's
3:38:58discussion with Tim Ferris and last but
3:39:00certainly not least thank you for your
3:39:02interest in science
3:39:06[Music]

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of How to Learn Better & Create Your Best Future | Tim Ferriss by Andrew Huberman, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 38,419 words across 5,508 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to translate the transcript into 100+ languages.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, translation to 100+ languages, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.