How to improve as a teacher and as a researcher - a conversation with Professor Priscilla Dunk-West — Transcript

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1. 0:01[music]
2. 0:05>> There are influences all around us
3. 0:08selling protein powder, weird contour
4. 0:12eye shadow that transforms us into an
5. 0:14extra from Battlestar Galactica, and
6. 0:16those people on LinkedIn that appear to
7. 0:18be selling us something, but we're never
8. 0:21really sure what the product is.
9. 0:23Seemingly, the person is the product.
10. 0:27So, what happens to academics in this
11. 0:30type of environment? How do we learn?
12. 0:32How do we improve as a teacher and as a
13. 0:36researcher?
14. 0:37All sorts of courses and mentoring
15. 0:40programs are available, but what works?
16. 0:44This week, we talk with Priscilla about
17. 0:46her career and how she embedded learning
18. 0:49in it to reach her goals.
19. 0:53A fascinating one. Let's talk with
20. 0:54Priscilla now.
21. 0:58>> [music]
22. 1:03>> Priscilla, as always, and I have missed
23. 1:05you and everybody's missed you, but can
24. 1:06I say, as always, this is a tough
25. 1:08conversation about how we improve as
26. 1:12academics in teaching and research? And
27. 1:14we now have an environment in our
28. 1:16universities where consultants are sort
29. 1:19of brought in
30. 1:21to offer professional development
31. 1:22programs. So, these people are often
32. 1:25outside of the university environment,
33. 1:27outside of education often, and are
34. 1:30brought in to teach academics about
35. 1:32teaching or about learning, about
36. 1:34research, or about impact, or about
37. 1:36writing, or publishing. Now, I I wonder
38. 1:39what your view is on that. When do you
39. 1:41think these sessions from outsiders of
40. 1:44our sector are useful, and when should
41. 1:47support and expertise be offered by
42. 1:50academics within the organization?
43. 1:53>> Mhm.
44. 1:54I know, it's a funny one, isn't it? But,
45. 1:56how did we get here? Where we've got
46. 1:59Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's
47. 2:01interesting. Look, I think consultants
48. 2:03in terms of delivering that training or
49. 2:06education
50. 2:08can be useful, right? Just like reading
51. 2:10an article or watching a film or you
52. 2:13know, it can be useful to our reflexive
53. 2:15engagement with ourselves as educators.
54. 2:17So, I don't think it's not helpful. I
55. 2:20think it can be really helpful. It can
56. 2:21offer a fresh perspective.
57. 2:23And that outside perspective, I think is
58. 2:26often helpful in in that it offers a a
59. 2:29new or different lens. Maybe it's coming
60. 2:32from more of a corporate perspective,
61. 2:33which is always interesting, or a
62. 2:35community-based perspective.
63. 2:37>> Nice. Nice.
64. 2:38>> But I do think that I do think that
65. 2:40sometimes
66. 2:42And I don't know if this is an
67. 2:44Australian thing, but we have this this
68. 2:46idea that that outside is better. That
69. 2:49you know, the further away the better.
70. 2:52And so
71. 2:54>> [laughter]
72. 2:54>> uh sometimes looking in the institution
73. 2:57and realizing that you've got fabulous
74. 2:59superstars in teaching and learning or
75. 3:01fabulous people who who are doing all
76. 3:02this fun stuff with creative methods or
77. 3:05you know, something different with
78. 3:06research in the institution. So, I think
79. 3:09having a scan of the institution
80. 3:12at that first level is really important.
81. 3:16And often, I think there's people within
82. 3:18the institution who are probably doing
83. 3:19gigs as a consultant for other
84. 3:21institutions. So, yeah, I think I think
85. 3:24looking at the landscape, seeing what
86. 3:26expertise is there, but also not
87. 3:28dismissing the idea of consultants as
88. 3:32not at all ever helpful. I think that I
89. 3:35think that, you know, we can we can look
90. 3:38outside the institution for a fresh
91. 3:41perspective. And if we're constantly
92. 3:43in that bubble of our own institution,
93. 3:45that can sometimes feel a bit airless.
94. 3:49>> Very strong. And can I say I loved what
95. 3:51you suggested there about involving
96. 3:54training from colleagues in the
97. 3:55community, too. So, we talk a lot about,
98. 3:58particularly at the moment, particularly
99. 3:59in the United Kingdom, impact and
100. 4:00engagement and stakeholders and so
101. 4:03forth. And I think we talk about
102. 4:05stakeholders rather than two
103. 4:06stakeholders. And that's a great example
104. 4:08where bringing in a consultant, a
105. 4:11stakeholder, a community representative
106. 4:14to speak through their needs would be
107. 4:16profound.
108. 4:18>> Mhm. Absolutely. Yeah, and that that
109. 4:20perspective of people with lived and
110. 4:22living experience, I think that we have,
111. 4:24particularly in social work, but
112. 4:25bringing in students into those spaces,
113. 4:28too. You know, what does it feel like to
114. 4:29be taught or what does it feel like as a
115. 4:31student with a disability? What what
116. 4:33what do they need in terms of their
117. 4:36specific disability? So, sometimes
118. 4:38some of that specialist knowledge, that
119. 4:40upskilling about particular
120. 4:42um
121. 4:43developments that are more sort of
122. 4:45cutting edge, they can come from the
123. 4:47institution, but also from consultants
124. 4:49as well who might be going out and and
125. 4:51delivering training about a very niche,
126. 4:53nuanced topic that might be relevant to
127. 4:56other sectors aside from education.
128. 4:59>> Love that. That's You've convinced me
129. 5:01again, okay. I was a bit I was a bit
130. 5:02staunch. I've I've I've suffered I've
131. 5:04suffered a lot of I've ever told you the
132. 5:06the weirdest story when there was a a
133. 5:08leadership problem in one of the
134. 5:10regional universities. I was at a couple
135. 5:12of the heads of school didn't get on.
136. 5:14And so, they brought in a consultant
137. 5:16who who trains prison guards.
138. 5:20And and conflict management between
139. 5:22prison guards. And so, I was very
140. 5:24interested in the translational
141. 5:26knowledge that comes from training
142. 5:28prison guards into heads of schools in a
143. 5:30regional university.
144. 5:32And I never I never really got the
145. 5:33answer to that question, Priscilla,
146. 5:34mate. So,
147. 5:35>> Did Did it work? Did it work is the the
148. 5:37question. Did were they successful?
149. 5:40>> No, at the end of the three days in the
150. 5:41airless room, those two heads of school
151. 5:43still hated each other's guts, sadly.
152. 5:45So, so the the the
153. 5:46>> They needed a relationship counselor or
154. 5:48someone some some other kind of
155. 5:50>> Yes.
156. 5:51>> area of expertise.
157. 5:52>> The the prison guard discourse didn't
158. 5:54quite translate effectively. So, that's
159. 5:56that was a great show. So, that's why
160. 5:57I'm always going, "Right. Okay. What's
161. 5:59the translatable skills here?" Right.
162. 6:02So, when you and I'm going to ask you a
163. 6:03personal question now and again there
164. 6:05may not be an answer here. Answer it all
165. 6:07as always to your level of comfort. But,
166. 6:09when you look back on your career,
167. 6:11Priscilla, how did you improve your
168. 6:14teaching or your research? Was there
169. 6:16sort of a key bit of information or
170. 6:18knowledge that enhanced or lifted your
171. 6:22understanding of curriculum, curricular
172. 6:24design, teaching, learning, or research?
173. 6:26Did Was there an intervention that made
174. 6:28a difference?
175. 6:30>> When I first started Yes. Yes, I think
176. 6:33so. When I first started teaching, it
177. 6:35was there I was in Whyalla. So, I was in
178. 6:38rural South Australia. And
179. 6:40>> Great job.
180. 6:41>> engineering students and IT students how
181. 6:44to use English in their written work and
182. 6:47like how they use language like it was a
183. 6:49sort of language
184. 6:51Um
185. 6:52>> Wow.
186. 6:52>> uh unit and I was so intimidated and so
187. 6:57it was my first you know, I only had an
188. 6:58honors degree in English.
189. 7:00And I was so intimidated and so nervous
190. 7:03and I used to like my voice used to
191. 7:05shake and I'd go bright red and I'd just
192. 7:07stand there and I'd think, "I've just
193. 7:08got to get through it." Um [snorts] I've
194. 7:10just got to get through it. And it was
195. 7:12it was it was when
196. 7:14I think I used to lecture at night and
197. 7:17the engineering students one time
198. 7:18brought in beers into the classroom. I
199. 7:21was like, "Guys, beers in the bin." And
200. 7:24they were like, "Oh, sorry. Sorry,
201. 7:25Priscilla." You know, they were big big
202. 7:27big dudes. And it was then that I
203. 7:31started to kind of go, "I can kind of be
204. 7:33myself and be a bit informal and go
205. 7:36actually no, cut it out." You know, that
206. 7:38sort of stuff.
207. 7:39And then they'd ask me you know,
208. 7:40questions about you know, where I was
209. 7:42from and and I just I started to then
210. 7:45engage with this idea that teaching
211. 7:47isn't putting on a performance,
212. 7:49but there's needs to be something about
213. 7:51your authentic self that comes through.
214. 7:54Um but then I sort of got myself into
215. 7:56knots about teaching and used to
216. 7:57overthink and and worry that things
217. 8:00didn't go well and was really really
218. 8:03really
219. 8:05critical of myself. And I remember I
220. 8:07used to say to a colleague,
221. 8:09um you know, I don't know if my
222. 8:11teaching, you know, and they just said,
223. 8:13"Who cares?" They used to say to me,
224. 8:14"Who cares?"
225. 8:16And at the same it was around the same
226. 8:18time that I was engaging with lots of um
227. 8:20women academics in social work and they
228. 8:22used to they used to say like teaching
229. 8:24is often seen as women's work. And so I
230. 8:26got this gendered lens and went,
231. 8:28"Huh, maybe you can be too reflexive in
232. 8:31a critical way that of yourself.
233. 8:34And maybe it's more about
234. 8:36letting go rather than trying to
235. 8:38control. So, letting go of this idea of
236. 8:41being the perfect teacher, but just this
237. 8:44who cares? Like in the scheme of things,
238. 8:46who cares that you had a bad class?
239. 8:49You're you're doing your job, you're
240. 8:50slogging away, you love it, you're
241. 8:51passionate, and that will sustain you.
242. 8:54And so, yeah, I think those three sort
243. 8:56of moments
244. 8:57>> Wow.
245. 8:58>> for me helped me improve my teaching.
246. 9:01>> Giving yourself the permission to to be
247. 9:03a whole human is is a great teaching and
248. 9:07life learning andragogical moment, I
249. 9:09think.
250. 9:10>> Yes, and also just recognizing that
251. 9:13your teaching identity evolves over
252. 9:16time. It is different with different
253. 9:18cohorts. It is different in different
254. 9:20classrooms. There's different dynamics,
255. 9:22and that that's okay. It's a movable
256. 9:25identity that shifts over those
257. 9:27contexts.
258. 9:28And it's okay to get things wrong. It's
259. 9:30okay that you might do an exercise that
260. 9:33doesn't work.
261. 9:34>> Yeah. And the great thing the great
262. 9:36lesson for teachers is always teaching
263. 9:38learning is not about you.
264. 9:40>> Yeah.
265. 9:40>> It's about the students. Start with the
266. 9:42students are. That's what matters.
267. 9:44Powerful. Wow, that's amazing.
268. 9:46>> Now, let's let's go there. And again,
269. 9:48this is one of those words I'm just
270. 9:49going to take a breath. Mentoring.
271. 9:52Now, you're much nicer on this. You're a
272. 9:53very decent ethical lovely human being.
273. 9:55But mentoring programs still dominate
274. 9:58our university and often with specific
275. 10:00focus on early career researchers or
276. 10:02women or LGBTQ I scholars. Now, I've
277. 10:06never asked you this question. What is
278. 10:08your view of these programs and when do
279. 10:11you think they're useful?
280. 10:13>> I personally have never found mentoring
281. 10:17useful. I've been paired up with
282. 10:19somebody as as an early career
283. 10:21researcher a couple of times and have
284. 10:23had coffee with people like other women
285. 10:26and they've said things like, "Oh, yeah,
286. 10:29no, I was just lucky cuz I was working
287. 10:30with a bunch of people and then we got
288. 10:32an ARC and then da da da." And it's
289. 10:33like, "Well, how does
290. 10:34>> [laughter]
291. 10:35>> that help to me? What do I do with
292. 10:36that?"
293. 10:38>> Wow.
294. 10:38>> And so And [clears throat] the other
295. 10:40thing was that in both instances they
296. 10:42were from the pure sciences. So, it just
297. 10:45we didn't have a common language. We
298. 10:47didn't have a common way to think about
299. 10:49research.
300. 10:51You know, it is completely different
301. 10:53context and
302. 10:54And so, I suppose
303. 10:57as from a being on the receiving end of
304. 11:00mentoring
305. 11:02in those very two I mean, I don't know
306. 11:03if you can count that, but it was a
307. 11:05mentoring meeting that I had. Um that
308. 11:07wasn't helpful to me at all. Like, I get
309. 11:10inspiration by
310. 11:12um talking to other people, connect
311. 11:15making connections, thinking,
312. 11:18understanding the context in which I
313. 11:20work, understanding the rules, seeing
314. 11:22what other people do, seeing that seeing
315. 11:24how other people kind of push past the
316. 11:27boundaries.
317. 11:27>> Lovely.
318. 11:28>> So, some of the public intellectual sort
319. 11:31of stuff that I really love, you know,
320. 11:32the
321. 11:33the kind of like what we're doing here,
322. 11:36we're kind of talking about our work. Um
323. 11:39that sort of stuff to me is
324. 11:40inspirational. However, I will say I do
325. 11:44think there are some people who would
326. 11:45probably say that I was their mentor.
327. 11:47>> Yeah.
328. 11:48>> Um or that I had a mentor role, but it's
329. 11:51much less formal and it's more me being
330. 11:55a cheerleader for their careers and just
331. 11:58kind of
332. 11:59really trying to offer advice, you know,
333. 12:03from my experience. So, it's more of a
334. 12:05personal thing rather than a formal sort
335. 12:08of
336. 12:09um
337. 12:10a structured thing where somebody's
338. 12:11matched you with somebody else. It's
339. 12:13more of a
340. 12:14it's emerged through relationships where
341. 12:16I've had um you know, a role as a PhD
342. 12:20supervisor, for example, or um I've
343. 12:22worked with somebody or I've supervised
344. 12:25somebody. And so, that's that's I think
345. 12:28more of that mentor role that I play.
346. 12:30So, I'm mixed about it. I don't know.
347. 12:32>> But I think you're wonderful on that see
348. 12:33that cuz again, always with you it's
349. 12:35authentic connectivity. That's the key.
350. 12:39>> And I think the problem we've got when
351. 12:41when particularly women are in mentoring
352. 12:43situation, the assumption is if you have
353. 12:46a vagina and this other person has a
354. 12:48vagina, then the vaginas intrinsically
355. 12:51mean there's something in common. You
356. 12:52might be radically different
357. 12:53disciplines, all sorts of different life
358. 12:56experiences. And I'm not sure one
359. 12:58sociological variable is enough to build
360. 13:01that connective tissue. And I think it
361. 13:03can also reify situations, particularly
362. 13:06since women have experiences now are so
363. 13:08incredibly diverse. And assuming that
364. 13:11that that can simply move into something
365. 13:14of relevance to another woman, I think
366. 13:16is almost a bit of meta-sexism, really.
367. 13:18>> Mhm. And and you know, a woman who's
368. 13:21cisgender is not going to you know, like
369. 13:23all of the variables. So, this, you
370. 13:25know, intersectionality is so important
371. 13:28in this space. But, also class is such a
372. 13:30big
373. 13:32big, you know, one of those identity
374. 13:34markers. And for me as first in family
375. 13:37um to go to university
376. 13:39um
377. 13:41I just had you know, I had I know people
378. 13:43whose parents are professors. And you
379. 13:45know you know what I mean? So, it's just
380. 13:47super different for different people.
381. 13:49So, I think if those contacts and those
382. 13:52relationships that you have with people
383. 13:54close to you within your discipline or
384. 13:57close to your discipline I think for me
385. 13:59have been more helpful.
386. 14:01>> Terrific. I think that's a great answer.
387. 14:03And look, this one again may not be
388. 14:05relevant to you. I'm asking you
389. 14:06questions. I don't know the answer this
390. 14:07week, but this may not be relevant to
391. 14:09you, but was there an example in your
392. 14:11life of a colleague
393. 14:13where
394. 14:15you were able to intervene at the right
395. 14:17time in their career or you intervened
396. 14:19at the right time in their career? So,
397. 14:21did they offer a key bit of information
398. 14:23to you that made a difference to you? Or
399. 14:26were you aware that you offered a key
400. 14:27bit of information to them? One way or
401. 14:29the other. Do you remember that moment
402. 14:31of intervention?
403. 14:33I I have had one moment where I was
404. 14:36thinking of leaving an institution and I
405. 14:39had a conversation with a dean who said,
406. 14:42"Priscilla, leave."
407. 14:44>> [laughter]
408. 14:44>> I said, "Okay, great."
409. 14:46It's like I needed permission. And so,
410. 14:48it wasn't really a piece of advice. It
411. 14:50was a
412. 14:51a kind of just a permission to you don't
413. 14:55have to you don't have it you know, you
414. 14:56can go on and do other things. You don't
415. 14:58have to sort of stay here. And so,
416. 15:01I think
417. 15:02that was a that was a pivotal moment in
418. 15:04my career, actually, cuz
419. 15:06I could have stayed
420. 15:08and I I was sort of a bit I was in a a
421. 15:11place of being stuck. And so, I think
422. 15:13that if if people are in and I know that
423. 15:16I have talked to people when they're in
424. 15:18this position, too. If you're in a in a
425. 15:20position where you're stuck or you're
426. 15:23not sure or you're considering a career
427. 15:25in academia or you know those really
428. 15:27pivotal moments, everything that you
429. 15:29hear at that point I think is really
430. 15:33um
431. 15:33pivotal, right? It can be pivotal. It
432. 15:35can really influence you. So, you know,
433. 15:37when people ask me advice, I often think
434. 15:41I often will say, you know, like this is
435. 15:42your decision or this is your
436. 15:45your thing, but what do you you know,
437. 15:46what do you want or what do you So, it's
438. 15:49it's it's all relative to people's
439. 15:51situations. But yeah, that's the only
440. 15:53thing I can think of that was really
441. 15:55pivotal.
442. 15:55>> I think it's a great one because when we
443. 15:56are in those life pivots pivotal life
444. 15:59moments, we are hypersensate.
445. 16:02And all I'd say to people too is I mean
446. 16:05that dean did you a favor, did the
447. 16:07planet a favor. But it is I think great
448. 16:09people if you have got those trusting
449. 16:11colleagues around you, ask the question
450. 16:14and ask them to be a benevolent mirror
451. 16:16to you.
452. 16:17>> Yes. Yes.
453. 16:18>> And just so you're getting a second data
454. 16:19point a third data point so that you're
455. 16:22not making a catastrophic error.
456. 16:24>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And if you do make an
457. 16:27error, who cares? Like you know, like if
458. 16:30you if you go to the
459. 16:32wrong institution, there's other
460. 16:33institutions like particularly at the
461. 16:34moment. I mean, there's a lot of
462. 16:36movement I think at the moment around
463. 16:38institutions. So,
464. 16:40yeah, I think I think hearing the advice
465. 16:44from other people, but also knowing in
466. 16:46your heart what what you want to do. I
467. 16:48think for women and for me as a woman,
468. 16:51that piece of advice was really linked
469. 16:53to that. It was a sense of if I do this,
470. 16:55then will I have less time for caring
471. 16:57responsibilities or will I you know,
472. 16:58will this influence this? So, it was a
473. 17:01it was more of that piece of advice
474. 17:02really. So, thinking about why you're
475. 17:05stuck, what is having you in that you
476. 17:09know,
477. 17:09sticky sort of place I think is also
478. 17:12important cuz it's not always just about
479. 17:15thinking about your career and what
480. 17:16makes sense logically. It's all the
481. 17:18other stuff that, you know, and
482. 17:19particularly if you think about mobility
483. 17:21and moving around and those sorts of
484. 17:22things. So, yeah, tricky.
485. 17:24>> Exactly. I think that's amazing. And my
486. 17:26final question is and I I think about
487. 17:29this a lot at 1:00 in the morning and I
488. 17:32would welcome your view on this. We have
489. 17:35so many junior colleagues, many of whom
490. 17:36listen to this podcast whenever
491. 17:38Priscilla speaks and they're big fans.
492. 17:40They love Priscilla and I keep getting
493. 17:41emails going, "Where's Priscilla?" But
494. 17:43we've got a a number of junior
495. 17:44colleagues in short-term contracts and
496. 17:46very unstable posts. How can we best
497. 17:50support those colleagues? What can we
498. 17:52say? What can we do to make a difference
499. 17:56to these colleagues?
500. 17:58>> Well, I think the first thing is you are
501. 18:00part of the academic community. You are
502. 18:03an academic. You are, you know, you are
503. 18:05not your contracts. You are your, you
504. 18:09know, sense of identity as an academic.
505. 18:11We see you. You're part, you know, come
506. 18:14in, have a coffee with us. Um and so,
507. 18:17really, I think we've got a
508. 18:19responsibility to try and, you know,
509. 18:22advocate for ongoing work if that's what
510. 18:25is going to suit people. Some people
511. 18:27like the sessional um contracts, but I
512. 18:29think,
513. 18:31you know,
514. 18:32it's tricky because you need momentum,
515. 18:35right? You need momentum to get
516. 18:38for, you know, to drive forward research
517. 18:40plans and things. And and sometimes
518. 18:41those contracts can really interrupt
519. 18:43that and so I see that. And I guess,
520. 18:47you know, for people who for a while
521. 18:49there I was a research assistant for a
522. 18:52social research kind of center
523. 18:54when I was doing my PhD and I was also I
524. 18:56had all these gigs at one point and I
525. 18:59was, you know, doing social work. And so
526. 19:01thinking about how do they all connect
527. 19:03and what's the story that you can tell
528. 19:05about that? What what's, you know, is
529. 19:07translatable? What's, you know, what can
530. 19:09you bring across? But really integrating
531. 19:11that into your um
532. 19:13career. In social work it's a little bit
533. 19:16easier because I think social workers
534. 19:18can go in and out of practice.
535. 19:20Can sort of go into practice and then
536. 19:22come into academia and we'll go
537. 19:24fabulous. You've got recent practice
538. 19:26experience. How good is that?
539. 19:29But I think yeah, those short-term
540. 19:31contracts can be brutal
541. 19:33and
542. 19:34and connecting with others I think is
543. 19:37really important in that space and not
544. 19:38feeling like you're not quite a part of
545. 19:41that community because you're not
546. 19:43in an ongoing role and I think we have a
547. 19:46responsibility as as you know, I do as
548. 19:49an ongoing staff member to really see
549. 19:52those people with part-time contracts as
550. 19:53part of that academic community if they
551. 19:55want to be a part of it.
552. 19:56>> Exactly. We are now a very very diverse
553. 19:58workforce, a very diverse workforce and
554. 20:01if you know, it's all right to talk
555. 20:02about inclusivity and social justice,
556. 20:05but you know, social justice begins at
557. 20:06home.
558. 20:08And so recognizing the value and the
559. 20:10care and the decency of all the
560. 20:12different colleagues that exist with us.
561. 20:14I love your phrase, you are not your
562. 20:16contract. But I think the second bit of
563. 20:18crucial information you've given us
564. 20:19there for our colleagues putting
565. 20:21together these multiple gigs is tell the
566. 20:24story, work out the connections between
567. 20:27the gigs and tell that story.
568. 20:30I didn't know where we'd go today,
569. 20:31Priscilla. I've I've loved every second
570. 20:33of this and can I say once more,
571. 20:36your focus on connection
572. 20:38>> Mhm.
573. 20:39>> will change people's lives. So thank you
574. 20:41for your time.
575. 20:42>> Mhm. Thank you.
576. 20:45>> [music]
577. 20:49[music]