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How To Heal The Catastrophic Rift Between The Opposite Sexes w/Dr. Debra Soh — Transcript

by Andrew Klavan · 6,331 words · 902 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00for boys there's such a emphasis on them
0:02in terms of you know the looks maxing
0:04trend and they really really want to
0:06impress women which is understandable
0:08but I don't think worrying about the
0:10size of your jaw or your mandible or
0:13thinking about taking anabol like
0:15steroids at such a young age it is
0:17necessary to to attract women but this
0:19is where we are unfortunately
0:36Hey everyone, it's Andrew Claven with
0:37this week's interview with Dr. Deborah
0:39So. Uh Dr. So is a neuroscientist who
0:42specializes in human sexuality. She has
0:45a book out called sex extinction which
0:48talks about the fact that people are not
0:49having sex and one of the many of you
0:52may not know this but one of the results
0:53of that is people are also not having
0:55babies which could mean the death of
0:57human society. So it is an important and
1:00interesting topic. You can find uh Dr.
1:03So at Dr. Deborah so that's deb.com
1:09and again the the book is called
1:11Sexinction. Deborah it's nice to meet
1:13you. But it's nice of you to come on.
1:15How are you?
1:15>> Hi Andrew. Thank you for having me. I'm
1:17very well. I hope you're having a good
1:18day.
1:19>> I am, thank you. And I Let's Let's begin
1:21at the beginning, I guess, and and talk
1:23about are people It seems like people
1:24are having less sex. Everybody says
1:26they're having less sex. Do we know
1:27that?
1:29>> I was similarly skeptical as to whether
1:31people are actually having less sex. And
1:32so this study came out in 2016 and it
1:35showed for the first time that Americans
1:37were having less sex than ever before
1:38across the board. But this was
1:40particularly the case for millennials.
1:42And this trend was expected to continue
1:44on for Gen Z. So since then, there have
1:46been multiple studies coming out showing
1:48that the same trend is happening around
1:50the globe. It's not just here here in
1:52the west, it's also in the east. Doesn't
1:54matter whether you're married or single,
1:56what age cohort or generation you're
1:57part of. It seems everyone is having
1:59less sex than before. But this is
2:01particularly pronounced among
2:02millennials and Gen Z, and especially
2:04among young men. So the statistic I keep
2:07seeing is that roughly one in three men
2:09and one in five women have not had sex
2:11in the past year which is very many
2:13people and so in extinction I went I
2:15looked at why is this a case? My
2:17interest in the decline in sex is
2:19partially because I used to study human
2:21sexuality scientifically but also
2:23because I lack of sex or lack of
2:26interest in sex is also a reflection of
2:28a lack of connection, a lack of
2:30emotional intimacy. And I do think that
2:32we as a society are much more
2:34disconnected and alienated than we have
2:36been previously. So each chapter in sex
2:38goes into a potential reason or
2:41technology as to why I think this trend
2:42is happening and what we can do to
2:44hopefully reverse things. And I wrote
2:46the book very much as a guide for
2:48parents in terms of trying to protect
2:50your kids from what's coming down the
2:52line in terms of the advancements and
2:54the ways in which we can push back
2:55because we see the negative effects of
2:58social media and screens and what that's
3:00done to young people in terms of their
3:01development. And we have new technology
3:03coming in like AI chat bots. I know this
3:05is something you've talked about before.
3:07Um,
3:08uh, I'm not sure how graphic I can get
3:09on your show, but basically we'll say
3:11simulations of human forms that will be
3:13replacing in person activity,
3:16essentially robots. Um, things like
3:19pornography and platforms like Only Fans
3:21and young women selling themselves,
3:23which is, you know, quite devastating.
3:25Just these societal trends that are
3:26being pushed on young people that I
3:28think are leading us astray and also
3:30leading us to seek replacements for sex
3:33that are actually not healthy. So it,
3:36you know, one, one of the things that's
3:37always a little delicate about talking
3:38about this is that it used to be, I
3:41mean, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, that
3:43people worried about young people having
3:45sex too young, that they were getting
3:47involved before they were ready, that
3:49they were, uh, you know, losing their
3:51way and not finding their way to
3:53marriage or becoming, you know,
3:54depressed or pregnant when they didn't
3:56want to be. Is that less of a problem
3:58now? I mean, is that has that problem
4:00gone away and been replaced with this
4:02problem? Well, critics of the sex
4:04recession and critics of my book have
4:06said, "Well, actually, young people are
4:08making better decisions about sex and
4:09that's why they're not they're
4:10abstaining." It's not that they are
4:11disinterested or what have you. It's
4:13that when you do look at say teenage
4:16pregnancy rates, they are low. They've
4:18gone down, which is a good thing. But
4:19when you look at something like sexually
4:20transmitted infections, those cases in
4:23teenagers have actually skyrocketed. So,
4:25if you look at things like syphilis,
4:26chlamydia, gorrhea, all extremely high
4:29in teenagers. So this suggests that
4:32while there has been an overall decrease
4:33in sexual activity um of young people
4:36who are having sex, they're not doing it
4:38safely and they're probably not using
4:40contraception.
4:41>> So I would argue if people are not
4:43having sex and they're happier, then
4:45that's fine. But my sense is most people
4:47are not actually it's not necessarily a
4:49choice that's being made and it's not
4:51something that they're actually happy
4:52about. And another one of the chapters
4:55in extinction goes into endocrine
4:58disruptors and environmental toxins. And
5:00I do think there's something happening
5:01at a biological level because when you
5:03again look at say teenagers and
5:04adolescence. So there's one study done
5:07that was very carefully done. I'm always
5:09very concerned when there there's
5:10research done involving children or
5:12adolescence asking them questions like
5:14this. So it involves parental consent.
5:16So it was very carefully done. And what
5:18they found is that in adolescence,
5:20there's actually been a a widespread
5:23decline in masturbation as well.
5:25>> So that's very unusual because that is
5:27when adolescence are coming into
5:30adulthood and that's usually when they
5:32have the most interest in sex, at least
5:34crushes and on their same age peers. So
5:36the fact that that sexual activity or
5:39rather that behavior is at a decline as
5:42well speaks in my mind that there's
5:44something larger going on here that we
5:46may not even fully be aware of or be
5:48fully accounting for it because why is
5:50it that young people just seem to have a
5:52complete absence of interest in it?
5:54>> Yeah. Does is are there theories about
5:55what it might be that's causing that
5:57when you say environmental causes?
5:59>> Yes. Well, there's been a decline in
6:01testosterone in men for the past 40 50
6:04years. It's been especially pronounced
6:05in the last 20 years and researchers do
6:08believe it's something in the
6:09contemporary environment that it's not
6:11due to diet, exercise, alcohol or you
6:15know drugs or lifestyle choices. It's
6:18very much specific to this environment
6:20and uh they there's research suggesting
6:23that it could be xenoestrogens. So
6:26things that are synthetic or naturally
6:28occurring estrogens that feminize men.
6:30This has been shown in animals. So if
6:32you take male say fish or frogs and you
6:35expose them to them to things like
6:37pesticides or plastics or pharmaceutical
6:40waste, it can actually lead to interex
6:42conditions uh which is quite terrifying.
6:44So it makes me wonder at what level this
6:46is happening to humans. Um what else is
6:49there? I mean it's something like birth
6:50control, anti-depressants. So, these are
6:52actually wrote a piece for the Daily
6:53Wire recently about this and we don't
6:56actually know the long-term effects of
6:58either of these classes of drugs on
7:01adolescent sexual development. So,
7:04that's very concerning. There have been
7:06many research studies in animals
7:08suggesting that it can affect say um how
7:11the brain develops, but we would need
7:13more research to know definitively. And
7:16um so I find that very concerning
7:17because when those changes take place,
7:19you know, it's it's questionable. Can
7:20they be reversed? So the other causes
7:24you looked at were they mostly uh
7:26technological? Were the things that
7:28practices that have come upon us because
7:30you know we've got computers, we've got
7:31an iPhone. Is that is that the sort of
7:33thing you're looking at?
7:35>> I looked at a range of possible
7:37explanations. So yes, technology is a
7:39big piece of it. I think there are
7:40social um causes as well. Things like me
7:43too which really has terrified men and
7:46away from basically staying away from
7:47women and wanting to approach women they
7:49don't know or even women they do know.
7:50there's no flirting in the workplace. I
7:52mean, understandably, I think, you know,
7:53sexual harassment is not ever a good
7:55thing, but at the same time, it's to the
7:56point now where the sexes really don't
7:58want to and also to some extent don't
8:00know how to engage with one another
8:02anymore. Um, I think also just small
8:05talk and chatting with the strangers is
8:08seen as uncou or uncomfortable. And
8:10especially with Gen Z, I'd say because
8:11they grew up so immersed online, digital
8:15interactions, text interactions are very
8:18much the norm for them. And I don't
8:19blame them for this. I don't blame their
8:20parents for this. You know, we I don't
8:21think we had any idea back then what the
8:24long-term effects were going to be
8:26potentially, but I do think it has
8:28affected their development in some ways.
8:30Many of them struggle with anxiety.
8:32There are there's research coming out
8:33now showing that in terms of say brain
8:36structure and function, there are
8:37changes associated with ex excessive
8:39screen time. So that can affect
8:41functioning that can affect something
8:43called executive function. So, it's
8:44planning, attention, emotion regulation,
8:47communication, language acquisition, all
8:48these really important skills you need
8:50to sui survive and thrive in society.
8:54And then things like AI chat bots. Um,
8:57more research showing that this is
8:58becoming more popular, especially among
9:00teenage boys, because they are scared to
9:01talk to girls and don't want to get into
9:02trouble. So, they're actually preferring
9:04these chat bots to their same-aged
9:06peers. Um, pornography I think has also
9:08done a lot of damage to this generation
9:11and and also social media more broadly
9:13in terms of affecting both sexes in
9:15their self-esteem, their body image, how
9:18they think they should look to the
9:19opposite sex and what they want their
9:21partners to look like and also for boys
9:24there's such a emphasis on them in terms
9:26of you know the looks maxing trend and
9:27they they really really want to impress
9:30women which is understandable but I
9:32don't think worrying about the size of
9:34your jaw or your mandible for thinking
9:37about taking anabolic like steroids at
9:40such a young age is necessary to to
9:42attract women. But this is where we are
9:44unfortunately.
9:45>> You know, one thing I I can't help but
9:47notice uh is that at least I won't say
9:52on the extremes but further out than the
9:56center there seems to be real hostility
9:58between men and women. I noticed this
10:00when I I first came to work here at the
10:02Daily Wire like about 10 11 years ago
10:04and I was suddenly surrounded by young
10:07men. You know, I was working with a lot
10:09of young men and I was shocked at the
10:11things they would say about women. I
10:12mean, I've been an athlete most of my
10:14life. I've been in a lot of locker rooms
10:16and I heard I've heard all the things
10:17that men say in locker rooms. I never
10:19heard a man say anything disrespectable
10:22disrespectful about his wife. I never
10:24heard anybody say anything like that in
10:26a in a locker room. And I I suddenly
10:29noticed that people were say making the
10:31same kind of comments that young men
10:33would make when I was a kid. Oh, women
10:35they're like they're emotional, they're
10:36crazy, they're this, they're that. But
10:37they weren't saying it with affection.
10:39We were always saying it like, you know,
10:40it was women are strange creatures, but
10:43we love them. They were saying it with
10:44real anger. Uh I don't know whether
10:46that's feminism. I don't know whether
10:48that's changes in the law. Is that
10:49something that appears in your research
10:51at all?
10:52>> 200%. Oh my goodness. It's the animosity
10:56between the sexes is unreal right now. I
10:59really like the commentary you've done
11:00on this because I feel it's very
11:01balanced and I tried to in sex be very
11:03fair as well and to say okay it doesn't
11:05matter which sex it is if you guys are
11:07acting like lunatics I'm going to tell
11:08you this is these are the things we need
11:10to think about to try and heal this
11:11divide and so I definitely think you see
11:15this this rage and hostility between the
11:18sexes and I think part of it is yes
11:20feminism that feminism especially
11:22because it's so deeply ingrained in the
11:24education system and also mainstream
11:25culture young boys understandably feel
11:28agrieved. They feel it's unfair that
11:30they're being penalized. I think
11:32feminism at the core um did some good
11:34things for women's rights and equality,
11:36but it's gone way too far off the mark
11:38now to the point where it is openly
11:39discriminating against men and it's
11:41actually advocating that women hate men
11:43and that we don't need men and you know
11:46quote unquote or # unalifeall men,
11:48things like that. So young men
11:51understandably say, well, we don't want
11:52to be discriminated against. That's not
11:53fair. What did we do to to uh deserve
11:56this? So then you see these manif
11:57manosphere type influencers coming in
11:59and saying, "Well, we'll show you what
12:00it's like to be a man. You don't need to
12:02listen to all these awful feminists,
12:03these feminazis." Well, we we you know,
12:06we like you. We like your your
12:07masculinity. Here's what it means to be
12:09a man. Which but their portrayal of
12:11masculinity and manhood is just as
12:13toxic. I think they're mirror images of
12:15each other. And so then what happens is
12:17young feminists say, "See, we can't
12:19trust men. Look what they're doing.
12:20They're trying to still subjugate us."
12:21And so it goes back and forth like that.
12:23I think the solution really is that the
12:26mainstream culture hopefully we might be
12:28waiting a while but you know in
12:30mainstream institutions take this issue
12:32seriously that you cannot sit here and
12:34and insult men and say that men are
12:37worthless or whatever have an absolute
12:38no empathy for men, no compassion for
12:40men and uplift women and give them tons
12:43of opportunities and think that that's
12:45okay and that these men are not going to
12:47be really upset about this and push back
12:50against it. And the other thing is
12:51another issue in terms of the dating
12:52market is that because women tend to
12:54date up, so they're hypergamous. Um,
12:57they are going to be very reluctant to
12:59date or marry someone who is less
13:01successful than they are. But women are
13:03far out succeeding their male peers in
13:05terms of education and occupation. And I
13:08don't think this is purely because
13:09societyy's biased. I do think women are
13:10obviously very capable of being
13:12successful and ambitious. But there are
13:13some cases in which men, especially
13:15white and Asian men, are openly being
13:17penalized in terms of education, in ter
13:19in terms of hiring. And so what you have
13:21then instead is this very small pool of
13:23men who are very successful who can pick
13:25whomever they want in terms of partners
13:27or have very many partners and not
13:29really have to invest anything. And then
13:30you have women who are all fighting over
13:32the same pool of men. And then very many
13:34other men who've been shut out
13:35completely who have no chance of really
13:37dating. And so they go down the route of
13:39these all other alternatives to real
13:42life partners, but then also I think
13:43deeper into this ideology of hating
13:45women. So yeah, it's it's quite a mess.
13:48And if you it really doesn't take much
13:50of an excavation on social media to see
13:52the evidence of this because there's no
13:53end of the amount of toxicity and people
13:56just venting about how awful dating is
13:58and how much the opposite sex is
14:00terrible. But what I found interesting
14:01is there was a poll that was published
14:02more recently. um it was probably in the
14:04last month or two showing that
14:08there's actually more young women under
14:10the age of 25 actually show more
14:14radicalization and hatred of men than of
14:17the same age of young men showing hatred
14:20of young women. So of women aged 18 to
14:2425 it was onethird of them they said
14:27they had a positive view of men which is
14:29not very many whereas roughly 70% of
14:31young men said the same of women. So
14:34almost twice basically what or more than
14:37twice uh young men have more favorable
14:40views of young women. So I I'm a little
14:42butchering the the results. I'm not
14:43saying the most clearly, but
14:45essentially, you know, there's a lot of
14:46talk about how the manosphere is so
14:48toxic and and men are all misogynistic
14:50nowadays, but there's an equal movement
14:51on the other side that is really
14:53invigorating young women into hating
14:55men. And I think we need to call both
14:56sides out because it's it's really not
14:59going well.
15:00>> Yeah. No, it's it's obviously a
15:02disaster. We're talking to Dr. Deborah.
15:04So, the name is spelled S O. The book is
15:07Sexinction: The Decline of Sex and the
15:09Future of Intimacy. And I've talked a
15:12lot on the show about pornography, and
15:14it's a a huge topic. I mean, I think
15:16it's like a having some kind of a
15:18culvert just gushing poison out into the
15:21into the psychology of people. So, I
15:24guess I guess let's hit on that. At
15:26least it seems silly not to talk about
15:28it. Is that it's hard to believe. It is
15:32hard for me to believe when you tell me
15:34that a young man prefers pornography to
15:37an actual living human being, but that
15:39does seem to be happening. Is that is
15:41that a true?
15:43>> Yeah. Yeah. It's much more common than I
15:45think. Well, it's actually no, it's out
15:47in the zeitgeist now. I would say that's
15:49you would think that'd be something that
15:50people would want to keep to themselves.
15:51But no, there are very many at least in
15:53my experience from the research I've
15:54done and people I've talked to and also
15:56what I see online is in forums and
15:58people discussing this men are saying we
16:01are done with women. We'd rather have
16:03our AI girlfriends, which is basically
16:05customized pornography, or you know,
16:07buying pornography through platforms
16:09like Only Fans or uploading our AI
16:11girlfriend into a a doll eventually so
16:13that it can simulate a real life partner
16:15or some semblance of a real life partner
16:17because they're so fed up with women.
16:19Part of it again I think is due to this
16:21animosity that they've been ingesting
16:22but also because it is scary for men to
16:26they don't want to get uh they don't
16:27want to have their life ruined if they
16:28say talk to the wrong woman or if they
16:30engage with the wrong woman and she
16:31decides after that it's non-consensual.
16:33So um I it's it's sad but at the same
16:38time in terms of the mechanisms why
16:40pornography activates the same brain
16:42network that is activated during actual
16:44sexual activity. So what happens is when
16:46someone is looking at porn, they are
16:48essentially their mind's being tricked
16:49into feeling as though they're
16:51experiencing the sex they're watching on
16:52a screen. And I think especially for Gen
16:54Z, they were exposed to porn at such a
16:57young age. You know, the average child
16:59today sees porn at age 12. One in seven
17:01kids sees it at the age of 10 or
17:03younger. And researchers in the field
17:05have said it's much younger. It's
17:06getting younger and younger. And so they
17:10they see that. They don't know what it
17:11is. But I think some of them are quite
17:14scared by it. But others are curious and
17:16they will come back to it and that
17:17becomes something that they frequent
17:20even before they have their first crush
17:21or their first kiss or their first date
17:23or their first experience in any
17:24capacity. So that becomes the the
17:26baseline for them. They've never
17:28experienced it with a real person.
17:29They've never experienced maybe even
17:31like flirtation really. So from that
17:34perspective, I can only imagine what
17:36it's doing to children's development.
17:37And so that could also speak to why in
17:40this cohort of younger men may really
17:42prefer these images or say a much more
17:46sanitized
17:47um interaction. But I also think again
17:50going back to you know when you're
17:52watching porn and you're having an
17:53orgasm if any of this is too graphic you
17:55can just bleep me out.
17:56>> No but
17:58>> essentially they're they are getting
18:00gratification from something that
18:02previously would have taken a lot of
18:03work and effort. So, usually for say if
18:06a man were to have a sexual experience,
18:08he would need to dress nicely, have
18:10social skills, um have the courage to
18:13ask a woman out on a date, have her say
18:15yes, then take her out, plan the date,
18:18make sure she gets home safely
18:19hopefully, and then follow up and say,
18:21"Would you like to go out again?" And do
18:22this a bunch of times and not know if
18:24she was ever going to actually sleep
18:25with him. And there's a chance that he
18:27might do all those things and still have
18:28her say no at the end. So now instead
18:30you don't have to do any of that when as
18:32a man if you feel frustrated sexually
18:34frustrated you can just pull out your
18:36phone and take care of things. And so
18:38for I think a generation of young men
18:40they're thinking well why am I going to
18:41bother with all this other stuff if I
18:43can just get the instant release. But I
18:45don't think they realize that you know
18:48there's a cost to that as well and that
18:50the more you have an orgasm from
18:52watching porn it sedates you. So that
18:54frustration that would have motivated
18:56you to go out into the world and build
18:58things and be productive and achieve
19:00goals and do difficult things, it
19:02actually uh disincentivizes you from
19:05doing those things which then also makes
19:07it more difficult you for you to attract
19:09real life women because those are the
19:10things that women look for in a partner.
19:12You know, the the other side of this
19:14though is I mean, one one thing that has
19:16been told to me by people who deal with
19:19younger people like school teachers and
19:21things like that is that the struct you
19:23know the structure where a man is trying
19:26to get something that a woman has sex
19:29and has to do all the things you just
19:31listed has completely dissolved and
19:34women are taking as the def yes as the
19:37default setting. And Louise Perry has
19:39written about this about how this is
19:41puts women in this terrible position
19:44where there if you go out with somebody
19:46you're expected to sleep with them. And
19:48I have heard people say that yeah that's
19:50the way the the world is. I mean it's
19:52it's so different. I I grew up in the
19:54transition point where as a young young
19:57man I assumed I would marry a virgin.
20:00Went through the 60s and then that all
20:02fell apart. But still, you had to do the
20:04work to to uh get a woman to be
20:08attracted to you and care about you
20:09enough to sleep with you at all. But now
20:11apparently that is gone. And I wonder um
20:14I hear a lot of women talking about
20:16their body count and it's mind-boggling.
20:19Um and you think I I don't know. I would
20:23be put off by that. I just being honest
20:24about it. I would probably not even want
20:26to go out with a girl who had a body
20:29count of like a hundred or something
20:31like this. So, so isn't is that a
20:33problem too or is that is that just the
20:35way things are?
20:36>> Oh, for sure. I mean, I don't think
20:38casual sex is good for either sex. I do
20:40advocate in sex for less promiscuity for
20:42both sexes.
20:44>> I can understand a little bit I try to
20:46why women might take pride in
20:48promiscuity because I do think to some
20:50extent the previously the the view has
20:53been okay men can sleep with however
20:55many women they want and women will be
20:58castigated for that so-called
21:00shame. I could see why some young women
21:02or women in general will rebel against
21:04that and say, "Well, no, I should be
21:05allowed to sleep with whomever I want
21:07and not be judged for it. But at the
21:09same time, what is the cost of that? And
21:11what is that doing to you?" And the
21:13reason why I think shaming or the
21:15reason why shaming exists is
21:16because people say it's predominantly or
21:19the I guess the left-wing narrative is
21:20that this is something that men do to
21:22women, but women do it to each other as
21:24well. women will denigrate their
21:26competitor competitors their sexual
21:28rivals essentially call them promiscuous
21:30so that men will lose interest in them
21:31because they know that sexual chastity
21:33is something that men value in women. So
21:36I think this message of of promoting
21:38promiscuity in young women especially is
21:41to some extent women trying to cut out
21:43their competition by telling other women
21:45to be promiscuous so that other men
21:46won't take them seriously. So I I do
21:49think, you know, taken too far, that's
21:51why you have these menosphere guys
21:52saying all they care about is body
21:54count. They all they, you know, they
21:56only care about a woman's body count and
21:57all women, especially educated women,
21:59they are all promiscuous and they're all
22:01feminists and they're going to be
22:02horrible to deal with and they're going
22:03to cheat on you and and cuckold you and
22:05things like that. There is some truth to
22:07what they're saying. I just don't think
22:08that it needs to go so far in either
22:10direction. And then the other thing with
22:11young women is that it's not good for
22:13you to be having casual sex with very
22:15many partners. I like that doesn't make
22:18why would that ever be good for anybody,
22:20right? Sex is such an intimate process.
22:22And then the other thing is with women
22:24more oxytocin is released during sex
22:26than for men. So women get more attached
22:28to a man after sex. And the other thing
22:30is for men after they have an orgasm
22:34their bonding hormones go down to zero,
22:36go back to baseline. So they actually
22:38disengage after sex. So it's a
22:41completely different experience for men
22:42on average. And so if you as a woman are
22:45having sex with someone you don't know
22:46very well and their risks like
22:48pregnancy, sexually transmitted
22:50infections or actually are at a higher
22:51risk to women due to the anatomy of
22:53their bodies. So if you are going into
22:56these situations thinking that you're
22:58going to behave or feel the same way a
23:00man does, you're going to be very very
23:02mistaken. And I think this is also
23:04adding to the polarization and the
23:05hatred that women feel towards men
23:06because if they have a bad experience
23:08like this, a man just gets up and leaves
23:10after and doesn't care. Uh if anything
23:12shames her after, she's going to be
23:14really upset and she's not going to
23:15understand why this has happened. And
23:16it's not that she needs to keep having
23:18sex with men that she doesn't know in
23:19order to get over these feelings, but
23:21it's actually that it's really not
23:22designed for women. M you know aside
23:25from the the fact that young people are
23:28missing out on one of the great
23:30pleasures and comforts and bonding
23:32experiences of life the human race seems
23:35to be dying. I mean that people aren't
23:37having babies which I I understand is
23:40I've heard is connected to sex and I I
23:43>> not anymore.
23:44>> Yeah. Not anymore. So you you've got all
23:46these devices where you can watch porn.
23:48You've got this animosity uh between men
23:50and women. You've got philosophies on
23:52both the the male and the female side
23:55that denigrate the opposite sex. Do you
23:59have some path back to a world where
24:01people can act like sane human beings
24:04and come together and reproduce and so
24:06forth?
24:07>> I do. So I have one chapter in sex that
24:10is focused on solutions in terms of
24:11helping to heal this divide. as you you
24:13were saying, you know, before sex was
24:15needed to have a family, but nowadays
24:18you can choose to be a single parent by
24:21electively essentially. And so the book
24:23is very critical of these solutions that
24:26don't actually deal with the underlying
24:28problem. So in this case, if women are
24:30seeking to get married and have a family
24:31and they can't find someone with whom
24:33they'd like to pair up, society says,
24:34"Well, here's some technology. We can
24:36allow you to freeze your eggs, use them
24:39at a time that's convenient for you, and
24:40then
24:41>> buy sperm off the internet, which is
24:43actually possible. This is part of an
24:45investigation I did for sex extinction,
24:46and insert it yourself, and you know,
24:48there you go. You have a baby. You don't
24:50need a man. So, my point in saying this
24:52is not to criticize, you know, women who
24:54decide to go this path, but just to say
24:56I do think it's impos it's important to
24:58think about um doing things that just
25:03make sense from a common sense
25:04perspective. and listening to biology
25:06and not necessarily getting tied up in
25:09um what's shiny and convenient for us.
25:11And so one one definitely solution I
25:13would say is get off of screens as much
25:15as you can. Don't be reliant on
25:17technology like dating apps and social
25:19media to meet people. really I hope that
25:21we can normalize meeting people in real
25:22life again and to have a more positive
25:26view about the opposite sex to be very
25:28aware of the content you're consuming
25:30and to spend more time with people who
25:33are happy in relationships and who are
25:35not looking to demonize other people for
25:37what's going wrong in the world. I also
25:39say because because young men are on the
25:41whole struggling a little bit more than
25:42young women to focus on both your
25:45physical and mental health because those
25:46two things are combined. And so if you
25:49eat unprocessed or non ultrarocessed
25:52foods, try to be aware of what you're
25:54putting into your body onto your skin
25:56because in many cases there are
25:58potentially toxins in personal care
26:00products or endocrine disruptors in um
26:03other things that we use on a daily
26:04basis or that we eat, food additives,
26:07things like that. Um
26:10being physically active. Trying to think
26:12what else. And for women, just to always
26:14be smiling. If you're single and you
26:15want to find a husband, always be if you
26:17see a man who's attractive, smile very
26:18widely at him. That will compel him to
26:20come and speak to you. And and for for
26:24both sexes to know that what you see on
26:26social media and the most extreme cases
26:28are not reflective of how most people of
26:31the opposite sex are. And really, I
26:33think even though human relationships
26:34are so messy and you don't always get
26:36what you want, that's still better than
26:38going the route of a machine that's
26:39programmed to love you.
26:41>> Yeah. Uh you you mentioned in there that
26:43you think people should get off dating
26:45apps. I mean the question I get asked
26:48almost more than any other is how do I
26:50meet people? Uh and and I don't know the
26:52answer. I mean I if you're not in a
26:54large church, you know, like you're
26:56probably in a church with like old
26:58people in it. So so you know it's I I
27:01where do why shouldn't people use dating
27:04apps? Well, I was going to say even if
27:06you're at a church with older people,
27:07surely they have sons and daughters or
27:10grandkids. Um,
27:13>> I guess it's about deciding, you know,
27:14what your priorities are and especially
27:16because I hear from very many people who
27:17say are conservative, but they're in a
27:18blue city and they're just thinking, "Oh
27:20my god, I goodness, I don't know how I'm
27:22going to find somebody." But maybe it's
27:23time to look for a change. One thing I
27:25will say in my own experience is
27:27something about health food stores.
27:28People seem a lot friendlier at health
27:29food stores. So, I think there's a
27:32similar mentality there. or if there are
27:34other hobbies where people tend to uh
27:36congregate in terms of just wanting to
27:38live a little bit differently, be
27:40countercultural in terms of your values
27:42and and not feeling like you need to do
27:45what everyone else is doing. Cuz that's
27:47one one big theme of sex and I say, you
27:50know, going back to your point about
27:50pornography, like I really respect
27:52anyone who's willing to call it porn
27:54because it is so ubiquitous in society.
27:56And when you say to someone, have you
27:58thought about stopping porn? Have you
27:59thought about maybe that will improve
28:00your life? They think you're crazy. They
28:02really do, you know, and I understand
28:04why they do, but I what I previously
28:06wrote for a very well-known men's
28:08magazine that features nude women. So,
28:10my views on porn have completely changed
28:11since then. And it was something I too
28:13previously thought like what's the big
28:14deal is just entertainment for adults.
28:16It's benign. It doesn't affect everyone
28:17negatively. But when I sat down to write
28:19this book and I started really thinking
28:21about the conversations I've had with
28:22people over the years and looking at
28:24research and saying, "Wow, there's
28:26something going on here and this is
28:28something that needs addressing."
28:30>> Yeah, I know. You know, I I I felt I had
28:33the same uh transition. I mean, I
28:36because I grew up in a world where
28:37getting born was hard harder than
28:39getting a girlfriend. It was hard to get
28:41your hands on board. I didn't understand
28:43that when it was instantaneous, when it
28:45was pouring out of every device you
28:48held. Uh it's it's a toxin. It's such a
28:52powerful toxin. And the addiction to it,
28:55you know, I get people who write to me
28:56and say, "I'm struggling with a porn
28:57addiction." And I say, "No, you're not.
28:59you just have to stop watching porn and
29:01that that will solve your problem, you
29:03know, and but I do understand that it's
29:06so prevalent. It's like food. I mean,
29:08it's it's just right there anytime you
29:10want it. Um, and it really really is
29:13damaging, you know. Really interesting
29:15conversation, Deborah. The book again is
29:17Sex Tinction: The Decline of Sex and the
29:20Future of Intimacy by Dr. Deborah So,
29:23SH. Uh, you know, I I hope you'll come
29:26back again and talk about this more
29:27because I feel like when when you're
29:29talking about um it it's so interesting
29:31that when you talk about the problem,
29:33you're talking about societal things
29:35that go across society. When you talk
29:37about solutions, you're talking about
29:38personal solutions. Like each person has
29:40to solve the problem for himself, though
29:42the entire society is obviously out of
29:44its mind. And uh and I think that that's
29:46that's I think probably most things are
29:48like that. And it's just uh this one is
29:52so deadly and so dangerous for the
29:54entire for entire race of humans that I
29:57think uh it's it would be nice if we
29:59could come up with some general general
30:01plan, but I don't know if there is one.
30:03>> I totally agree with you. So I'd love
30:05that. I'd come back anytime.
30:06>> All right. Good. I hope to see you
30:07again. Thank you so much for coming on.
30:09Uh it's it's been great talking to you.
30:11Really interesting.
30:12>> Thank you, Andrew.
30:13>> Well, that I I found that fascinating. I
30:15find it disturbing. Uh it's nice to talk
30:17to somebody who actually uh has the the
30:19facts and is not just imposing their own
30:22uh ideology on this situation. Again,
30:24the book is sexion, the decline of sex
30:27and the future of intimacy, Dr. Deborah.
30:30So, SH and she has another book called
30:33The End of Gender. Uh but this I think
30:36is a truly a truly enormous uh problem
30:38and just a a deprivation that I think
30:40young people are going through and
30:42should get out of it one at a time if
30:45possible altogether if they can come to
30:47the Andrew Clayven show on Friday. I
30:49will be there and I will look forward to
30:51seeing you as well.

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