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How to Grow an SEO Agency from $0 to 8 Figures (with Lessons from 21 SEO Experiments) — Transcript

by Edward Sturm · 12,631 words · 1,756 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00You wrote this article, the 21 SEO
0:03experiments, and I have read all 21 SEO
0:06experiments on this podcast.
0:09All 21 of them. I've given a separate
0:12episode to each experiment covered in
0:17your 21 SEO experiments article. It's
0:19it's seoserpa.com/seo-experiments.
0:23I remember the URL. simple URL, but also
0:26I've read it so many times and it when I
0:29first read that, it changed my
0:31understanding of SEO. I think you wrote
0:33it a long time ago. You've been in the
0:35space for a long time and and so I I
0:38messaged you on LinkedIn and I said,
0:39"Hey, come on the show." And and you're
0:42like, "Let's do an episode about how to
0:45grow an agency." And I'm like, "That's a
0:47great idea. You have an SEO a agency.
0:49It's a successful SEO agency. You're
0:51well known and respected in the space.
0:54I I thought that sounded really cool.
0:56So, if for anyone who's listening, if
0:58you have an agency or you're a
1:00consultant or a contractor or you're
1:03doing SEO work for other people or any
1:05other types of service work for other
1:07people and you want to learn how to
1:08grow, this is going to be a fun episode.
1:10We're also going to talk SEO because
1:12that seriously the SEO experiments
1:15article that you wrote so good and the
1:18first the first experiment was Ran
1:20Fishkin sharing his going sharing him
1:24posting on Twitter. Everyone clicked on
1:27my results. I want to see what happens.
1:29And then like 3 hours later he's ranking
1:31number one from all the clicks. Yeah.
1:33And and then the last one too which
1:35which I shared on the podcast recently
1:38was the shared hosting experiment.
1:42Do you remember that one? Cuz you wrote
1:43this a long time ago. The the CR
1:46experiment I remember very well because
1:48it was timely and there was a lot of
1:50misconception around it. Um at that
1:53particular point which for context for
1:55our listeners was 2016. Um so that post
1:59has stood the test of the time. I think
2:01a lot of what's in there is still
2:03relevant today. Um, but the shared
2:06hosting one I don't if you can jog my
2:08memory and remind me who ran that and
2:11what the outcomes were. Yeah. So, I want
2:13to say I I want to say I don't think any
2:15of it was outdated because before I read
2:19each one on the show, before I shared
2:21each one on the show, I actually I don't
2:23think I I did all 21 of them. Maybe it
2:26was like 18. Maybe there were like three
2:28that I decided not to do, but most of
2:30them were completely up to date.
2:32Especially Ran's experiments with
2:34clicks. Yeah, that one is still
2:36extremely relevant. You want your site
2:39to get clicks in the search results.
2:41That's going to make that's going to
2:42make your results perform better. You
2:44want your pages to get clicks. Yeah. The
2:46shared hosting experiment was it was I
2:49believe Okay. So, two sites with pretty
2:53much identical content.
2:56Both. Yeah. Yeah. And they're targeting
2:58the same keywords and one is one has a
3:02dedicated IP and the other is on shared
3:06hosting and the SER the search engine
3:08results page is crazy because the one
3:11with the dedicated IP takes up nine out
3:14of 10 spots on the search engine results
3:17page. Yeah. Yeah. And this is this
3:20concept of Yeah. You can essentially be
3:22uh you know classified or labeled in a
3:25bad neighborhood. So if you are going to
3:27adopt shared hosting, it's a good idea
3:29to see who you are sharing with. That
3:32would be a a good step to to take. But
3:34ultimately, if you can create your own
3:36real estate and make sure that
3:38everything that is sitting underneath
3:39your website is nice and clean, then
3:41that's definitely going to give you um
3:43yeah, performance benefits of course as
3:45well for load times and those sorts of
3:46things. But uh also make sure that
3:48you're not classified amongst some other
3:50let's say uh less um above board or you
3:55know quality websites that you wouldn't
3:56want to be labeled alongside. Did you
3:58write that article entirely yourself or
4:00like it's such a thorough in-depth
4:03article. Do you I don't know if you even
4:04remember. Yeah, you said 2016 because I
4:06I remember sitting on my couch and
4:09reading that into the middle of the
4:10night just like like oh my god this is
4:13amazing. Yeah, I wrote that one myself.
4:16Um I think it was an article that gave
4:20me a lot of traction at the time and it
4:22was really great for networking uh in
4:24the community. I had contributions um
4:27from the likes of Eric Enga who was a
4:30very notable name at the time also doing
4:33a lot with labs and running experiments
4:36um himself. I then also sort of ran it
4:40past Rand before I shared it because a
4:43number of the experiments that I
4:45featured were from him. Um, and they
4:48really got behind it and gave it a good
4:50push. So, it was great for link
4:51acquisition. It was great for
4:54um, let's say relationship building and
4:57networking. Um, and I wrote it all
5:00myself. It was off the back of sort of I
5:02think at the time I was I was relatively
5:04still young in the space at that stage.
5:06I'd read up on a lot of sort of Brian
5:07Dean's content and creating these great
5:10sort of skyscraper long form assets and
5:12I put my heart and soul into that that
5:14post and managed to find a huge amount
5:17of really let's say uncovered
5:20experiments you people that had done
5:21some great work really pushing the
5:23boundaries in the industry and it hadn't
5:25really been given the exposure that it
5:26deserved and I you know really just
5:28scoured the internet and spoke to a lot
5:29of people and and tried to you know give
5:32those experiments the light of day and
5:33make sure that you know SEOs could
5:35really see the result of great work that
5:37was being done and apply it to their
5:39their day-to-day execution and and real
5:41life SEO work. Really, it was super
5:44informative and even for me who was just
5:46head deep in the space, there were so
5:48many things in that post that I that I
5:50didn't know in 2016 when I when I saw
5:53it. Um, and actually I checked before
5:55the show. So, it has uh it has 213 back
5:58links from 109 websites. So, 109
6:02different domains linked to it. It's
6:04very solid performing and yeah,
6:06skyscraper technique was popping off at
6:08that time and that is a skyscraper
6:10article. It is a long article. Actually,
6:12I'm very curious. I didn't plan to ask
6:14this, but I this is a a very interesting
6:16thing because I talk on this show a lot
6:18about linkable assets. These are
6:20creating things that are so cool,
6:22useful, or interesting, people have to
6:24share them. And your SEO experiments
6:26article 21 SEO experiments that is 100%
6:29a linkable asset. You didn't make that.
6:32You didn't spend all I don't think you
6:34spent you spent all that time on this
6:36post just so you could rank for SEO
6:38experiments. I mean, yeah, you you're
6:40ranking for SEO experiments, but I think
6:42you did it because it's going to bring
6:44you back links. It's going to bring you
6:45awareness. It's going to bring you
6:46clout. It's going to get you clients.
6:48It's going to get you networking, all
6:50speaking opportunities, all these
6:52things, which it did. And and so you
6:54made it for that. You made this amazing
6:56post. I'm so I'm actually curious. Did
6:59you have a go to market planned for the
7:03post before you put the work into it or
7:05did you put the work into it and then
7:07you're like, "Oh crap, how do I how do I
7:09actually get people to find out about
7:10this?" Yeah. Um, it's a great question.
7:13So, I I did plan to do like a pre-launch
7:17on it. Um, and ultimately that's what I
7:20did. Um, those people that were
7:22featured, I let them know ahead of time
7:24that they were featured in the post. Um,
7:28I gave them the opportunity to give
7:30feedback, add extra context, maybe
7:34contribute a little bit as a bunch of
7:36them did. Um, so that built awareness
7:38and then as soon as the post was ready
7:41to publish, I was then able to go back
7:42to those people and say, "Hey, the post
7:45is now live, you know, um, if you feel
7:47that it's worth sharing, then then
7:50please do." And a number of those, you
7:53know, quite notable SEOs really got
7:54behind it. Rand being the the main one.
7:57I mean, he was he really was, you know,
7:59the man um in the SEO community at that
8:02particular time. And he pushed it out
8:04across all of his channels. They made it
8:07um the number one post on Moz. Moz used
8:11to round up. I can't recall what it was
8:13what it was called now, but they had
8:14like a top 10 list each week and they
8:16made it their number one post. Pushed it
8:18out to their, you know, 500k plus email
8:20list. It brought a lot of exposure. So,
8:22I didn't actually have to do any really
8:24like conventional outreach for it. Um,
8:26that you might typically do for, you
8:28know, a pillar piece of content like
8:30that. The distribution basically took
8:32care of itself once um I'd included
8:35those people that actually were, you
8:37know, the the promoters, the the
8:39distributors that I could rely on.
8:41Basically, it makes a lot it makes
8:42sense. You're you're targeting SEOs.
8:44SEOs know the uh the importance of a
8:47backlink. And you're like, "Hey, can I
8:48have a quote for this article I'm
8:50writing? I'm going to give you a link."
8:51They're like, "Yep." And then you
8:53actually made something great. So then
8:57when they see it, when they see what
8:59they're in, they're like, "Oh, this is
9:00actually good. Yeah, I'll definitely
9:03share this cuz I'm proud of this. I'm
9:04proud to be in this." This method of
9:07marketing is so effective, I had to make
9:08sure it wasn't against Google's rules
9:10before I kept doing it. It's a form of
9:12SEO I call compact keywords. Whereas
9:15most SEO focuses on putting up articles
9:18to answer questions, how, what, when,
9:20compact keywords focuses on putting up
9:22dozens of pages that sell to searchers
9:24who are actually looking to buy. These
9:27pages rank on Google and convert so much
9:30better than normal that when I
9:31discovered this years ago, I couldn't
9:33believe this was allowed. It's less
9:35work, too. The average Compact Keywords
9:37page is only 415 words. Compact Keywords
9:41is a 13-hour deep course on getting
9:44sales with SEO. A customer recently
9:46said, "Each lesson is dense with
9:49information. You're giving years worth
9:51of experience boiled down into 15 to 30
9:54minute lessons with no filler or fluff.
9:56I feel like I'm gaining a new
9:58superpower. Compact Keywords is about
10:00setting up an SEO funnel that brings you
10:02sales for years and years and years. It
10:06works with AI. It's less work than
10:08traditional SEO and it makes way more
10:11money. You can get it now at
10:13compactkeywords.com.
10:15Back to the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. And you
10:17use a lot of Dan Petrovic as well who
10:19when the Google API leak came out last
10:22year. Dan Petrovic knew about it. No one
10:24no one knows this. He knew about it
10:25before before anybody. And he even
10:27messaged Google. He's like, "You guys
10:29should put this back in the box."
10:30They're like, "No, it's fine." And then
10:32they realized too late that it wasn't
10:34that it wasn't fine. And the Google API
10:36leak happened. But yeah, you had a lot
10:37of experiments by Dan Petrovic. Yeah, he
10:40ran some really great stuff. I mean, he
10:42was on the bleeding edge at the time. He
10:44was doing some pretty risque stuff,
10:45which I really appreciate. Um, because
10:48it's only when SEOs pushed the
10:50boundaries that we really understand and
10:51and learn what's actually happening
10:53within within our space. Um, and and Dan
10:56was definitely one who really pushed the
10:58envelope. Um, you know, uh, at that
11:01time. Yeah. So, he was a great he was a
11:02great supporter. I think I probably
11:04included three maybe four of of his
11:06experiments as well. Yeah, there was
11:08some some good contributors there. That
11:10was amazing. Okay, so I want to I want
11:12to ask you this now for like uh let's
11:14say this this is now for people who
11:16maybe they're starting their SEO journey
11:19and they're also like they're like okay
11:21I'm learning SEO I find it really
11:22fascinating and while I learn it I want
11:24to start making money with it and the
11:26easiest way to do that is to just get
11:28some clients. Yeah. So my question,
11:31okay, my first question to you is, if
11:33you had to start from scratch today with
11:36zero dollars and no clients, what would
11:38your first 90 days look like?
11:42Well, it wouldn't look too dissimilar to
11:44what I did um now
11:49nearly 15 years ago, which is when I
11:51first started off in the consultancy
11:53space. Service set might be different um
11:56but conceptually I would do a lot of the
11:58same things. Your biggest opportunity
12:01first of all to capture clients is
12:03always going to be relationships that
12:05you already have. Um people that know,
12:08like, and trust you. Doesn't matter if
12:10they're not in the same industry
12:11vertical. You could know them for
12:13something entirely different. If you've
12:14got a strong relationship um with that
12:16person or business, and they trust you
12:19for what you do, you can go to them and
12:21say, "Hey, look, got this new venture.
12:23Um I would love to have you as a
12:27client." Now, that client relationship
12:29to begin with may not even be a paid
12:31relationship. You can do some comp work
12:33for them, build up a, you know, a case
12:35study, build up a bit of a portfolio,
12:37and then you can go from there. You do
12:38need to have proof if you really want to
12:40start to, you know, capture more clients
12:42and scale. I would also strongly suggest
12:46that um it's probably a good idea to um
12:50begin with a little bit of breadth. So
12:53niching down and specialization
12:55um is is a really good thing to do
12:57because when you can be known for one
13:00particular area or vertical or skill or
13:03service um it makes you much more
13:05referable. But often when you're
13:07starting out cash flow is king, right?
13:09So you need to be able to generate some
13:11sales um and generate new business. So
13:13when I began I started off by selling
13:18websites. I did SEO services. I did a I
13:22did a bunch of stuff in and around the
13:24kind of the website optimization space
13:27and then over time as I started to build
13:30up a portfolio of clients some nice
13:33residual um revenue coming in month by
13:36month I was then able to um specialize
13:38and and go a little bit more niche. So
13:41those would be a a couple of a couple of
13:44things I would also generally recommend
13:47and this is good advice for really
13:49anyone who um is a practitioner in
13:52particular is um think about actually
13:56just adopting a middleman model. So what
13:59I did when I first began was I did the
14:03marketing, I did the sales but I didn't
14:06do the implementation. I worked with a
14:08trusted SEO partner who actually did all
14:11of the execution work. Um,
14:15basically found clients, charged them a
14:17retainer, and then paid someone else to
14:20execute the work. And because of that, I
14:22could scale so much more quickly than if
14:23I was also trying to work out how to do
14:25the execution work myself as well. Um,
14:28why do that as opposed to hire
14:29freelancers? Well, one, if you work with
14:31a a partner or or a sort of wholesale
14:33agency, they've already got the systems
14:35and processes. they can scale much more
14:37effectively. Um it gives you one point
14:39of contact um instead of having to deal
14:42you know with multiple different people
14:44for different like you know aspects of
14:46aspects of the service and they'll
14:48typically have redundancy built in so
14:50that you know if someone's off sick then
14:52there's other people to pick up the
14:53work. So it basically is your sort of
14:55outsourced engine so to speak and and
14:58that's what I did when I got started. Um
15:01I was so successful in that model that
15:04about
15:06Three years into my journey, I became
15:08the number one customer for that
15:11wholesale agency.
15:13And as a result of that, the owner then
15:16had um obviously a high level of risk in
15:21his business where I was pretty much
15:22buying all the supply from him. So when
15:24he wanted to sell the business, he came
15:26straight to me and I ended up buying my
15:28supplier and then vertically integrating
15:30that business. And that was in 2017.
15:34And as a result of that, I on boarded
15:36like 20 people into my company and had a
15:38readym made business that I just flew
15:40with. That was that was after the 21 SEO
15:42experiments article. That was shortly
15:44after the 21 NCO exper. In fact, in
15:46fact,
15:48in fact, funnily enough, um, if I think
15:51back now to to that time, um, putting
15:54all of the time frame together, I think
15:57I actually
15:59featured that post in a talk in Sydney,
16:03Australia that announced the purchase of
16:06that business from my mentor who's
16:08Australianbased. Um, and then a month
16:10later, we integrated the team. Um and
16:13then went on from there. So it all Yeah,
16:15that funny enough all happened around
16:16the same sort of time. Funny.
16:19How did you how did you meet him?
16:22Um I met him. Um he's name's James
16:25Shanco. He's now also sorry to interrupt
16:27that that's my first question. And then
16:29for people who want to do this, what did
16:31uh what did your payment model look
16:33like? Like how are you getting
16:34compensated?
16:36Yeah. So the compensation model was
16:38essentially just as a middleman model.
16:40So he um sold SEO services um a
16:45wholesale rate um and he would deal with
16:49consultants and agencies. You know, he
16:50didn't want to do the retail model where
16:52he was going out and doing client
16:53management and that sort of thing. He
16:55basically just wanted to do the supply
16:57and then have agencies and consultants
16:59basically be his front end and resell
17:02his services. So literally what I would
17:04do is go out and find a client. I would
17:06charge them a retainer fee which would
17:09be about three times the fee that I was
17:11paying James for his services and I
17:14would just take the markup um in the
17:16middle. So basically get a client, get
17:19the cash, then spend part of that cash
17:21on then the execution of the services
17:23and then he would do the delivery.
17:25Meanwhile, what I would do is basically
17:26find the clients, do the sales and then
17:28do the account management. So the client
17:30relationship. So as far as the client's
17:31concerned, you know, my team is doing
17:34the SEO, but actually my team is really
17:37an outsourced um wholesale supply
17:40source. So there's plenty of those
17:41around now. I mean, you know, there's uh
17:43the one that comes to mind is like is it
17:45the Hoth? I think they're a big
17:47wholesale agency. You've got then like
17:50specialists within, you know, link
17:52building um as well. Um what's the one
17:54that comes to to mind
17:57um
17:59off the top of my head now? I forget,
18:00but yeah, there's a bunch of them out
18:01there if you if you want these kind of
18:03wholesale supply sources.
18:06And how did you meet your mentor?
18:09So I met James, another James very early
18:12in my digital marketing journey whilst I
18:16was still employed and he was speaking
18:19at an event in Dubai that I was invited
18:22to and at the time he was teaching
18:28uh online marketing,
18:31affiliate marketing, traffic arbitrage,
18:33that sort of thing. Um on one side of
18:35the business he had this sort of like
18:37community and mentorship that he was
18:38sort of teaching teaching these digital
18:40marketing sort of concepts and then on
18:43the other side of his business he he
18:44then had this um wholesale supply source
18:48for web development and and SEO
18:50services. So when I first met James I
18:53was still employed. I was then
18:58um in the nicest possible way to to say
19:01it is kind of pushed out of that
19:02business in a bit of like a a hostile
19:04takeover um and was left sort of without
19:08out work. And I then had these
19:11aspirations to become an affiliate
19:13marketer. I wanted to sort of work from
19:16my laptop, sit on the beach, um drink
19:19cocktails, um travel the world, that
19:21sort of thing. And I tried that for a
19:23month or two and realized it was very
19:25difficult. So I went to James and said,
19:27"Look, you know, I'm trying to make this
19:29affiliate marketing thing work. Um,
19:31it's, you know, it's taking time to to
19:33gain traction. What do you recommend?"
19:35And he was the one that recommended that
19:37business model to me. He said, um, I've
19:40got a supply source. You go out and win
19:42customers and you just take the profits
19:44as the as the middleman. Um, and that's
19:46what I ended up doing. And you know as I
19:48said I grew very very quickly after that
19:50sort of capturing clients and and scaled
19:52up from there. Actually I think um
19:55something that people might want to know
19:57is like what what advice do you have for
20:00people who want mentors? I have a lot of
20:02people ask me will I mentor them? I'm
20:06sure you still get that and uh if you're
20:08experienced in any space you you totally
20:11get that and but if you're in the
20:13position where you want mentors how do
20:15you go and get them?
20:17The first thing I would say is you
20:18definitely want to think about it in the
20:20plural sense and look for mentors in
20:24each area of your life and business
20:26where you have identified that you need
20:28to improve and grow. So, you know, I
20:31have had and do have mentors in the
20:34spaces of like sort of physical health
20:36and nutrition, um, relationships,
20:39um, general business mentorship, um, and
20:42then, you know, certainly multiple times
20:44through my business evolution, I've gone
20:46out and found mentors to master
20:49something that I was not good at. So, I
20:53went out and found a mentor when I
20:54wanted to scale um, like Facebook
20:57advertising for the agency, for example.
20:59I went out and found a mentor who I
21:02could learn from when I really wanted to
21:03enhance and improve our sales process
21:06for example. So it's important to seek
21:10out specialists in areas that you need
21:14to improve and grow. And then ultimately
21:17I think it's always best just to pay for
21:20mentorship. It's very very difficult to
21:23find someone who is at a level that
21:26would just be willing for you to give
21:28them some form of time in exchange for
21:32let's say coaching. It's it's very very
21:34rare because the best at what they do um
21:38honestly they don't need help and
21:39resources. But if you're willing to sort
21:41of pay your way into the game and invest
21:44as a student, and most of these do have
21:46programs, um that's the best way to get
21:48access, you know, to these people. I
21:51would I would also add that just by by
21:55just pinging them and showing them
21:57something you're doing that you think
21:59maybe they'll think is cool, they'll
22:01give you an okay, that's cool. And then
22:03like a month later, you have like an
22:05update. Oh, sweet. That's great. Yeah,
22:07continue to update me. And then like a
22:09month later, you have another update. Oh
22:11my god, but maybe you should change
22:12this. And then that person that you want
22:14to become your mentor after a few months
22:17of updates, they're just giving you
22:18advice for free because they see you
22:20going after it. And I mean, like I love
22:23surrounding myself with energy like that
22:26with with people who are people who are
22:28just excited, who are pursuing it. And
22:31it's like, oh, I see this obvious flaw,
22:33but you're excited. here's like a one-s
22:35sentence piece of advice that will just
22:37like save you a lot of headache and I'm
22:40and I'm totally open to giving that to
22:41you because your energy is helping me.
22:44Yeah. Yeah. That's that's solid advice.
22:46I mean the best thing not to do is just
22:49DM someone through LinkedIn or or email
22:52and just say like um I'm in this pick
22:56your brain. Yeah, exactly. Can I pick
22:57your brain or can you offer me some
22:59advice? Like just makes it very sort of
23:01difficult to to actually as someone who
23:04could help actually offer anything
23:06contextual and and and valuable. So I
23:08think if you can yeah you can make it
23:11very very easy on the person that you
23:13want to seek advice from um that is a
23:16very good good first step and once
23:18you've built a relationship absolutely
23:19it can snowball and develop if you if
23:21you show willing and and and motivation.
23:24I remember um this is like uh you it's
23:28like yeah I think you said it it's like
23:30they don't you might offer free help but
23:32they don't need they don't need free
23:33help like they can afford it and uh
23:36there one of my one of the people who
23:38I've learned a lot in terms of marketing
23:40from is Ryan Holiday and I read uh I
23:43read Trust Me I'm Lying that was one of
23:45the earlier marketing books that I read
23:47and I'm like whoa this is crazy I can
23:50get so many backlinks with this method
23:52this is insane such a Have you read
23:54trust me I'm lying?
23:57Uh that's the that's the short book that
24:00he wrote. I think I he's quite a short
24:03by Ryan Holiday standards. He wrote he
24:06wrote like a growth marketing handbook
24:07which was pretty short but trust me so
24:10much of his stuff but uh but mostly on
24:12stoicism. I love his his work like stoic
24:15philosophy is the enemy that yeah
24:19obstacle is the way. All of those are
24:20great. So before he was into stoicism,
24:23he literally was gaming the media. He he
24:26he was manipulating the media. And so
24:29like the subheading I think for trust me
24:31I'm lying was confessions of a media
24:34manipulator. I think that was that was
24:36the subheading for it. He he popularized
24:39helper reporter out I believe like
24:41within especially within the SEO
24:43community he popularized helper reporter
24:45out. He's like, "There are these
24:47journalists who need sources for their
24:49articles and you can just tell them
24:52stuff and say you're a source and
24:55they'll believe it. And here's 10
24:57examples of how I have done it and how I
25:00have lied to the media." And he so so he
25:02wrote this book which is a crazy book
25:04and it changed a lot of people's lives
25:06in uh just all over marketing and
25:08digital marketing. Trust me, I'm lying.
25:10But this was uh this was early in my
25:12career and I was doing I was doing SEO
25:17for these like uh these what's the word
25:21these like tit the they were for it was
25:23this couple it was this power couple
25:25from Vietnam they were like titans in
25:28Vietnam and they paid Ryan Holiday for
25:32so I was helping them with SEO and they
25:34were telling me the story they paid Ryan
25:35Holiday and uh for an hour call and I'm
25:39like how much did you pay him. And I was
25:41still like early on in my career and I'm
25:43like, "How much did you pay him?" And
25:44they're like, "Oh yeah, he charged
25:46$10,000 for that hour for that hourong
25:49call." And and I'm just like, "Oh man,
25:51there's so you can go so far in this
25:54industry." Like that's
25:57that's crazy. Um, but anyway, yeah. So,
26:00so to the point, it's like someone like
26:02Ryan Holidayiday, if you want him to be
26:03your mentor, he has enough like free he
26:06can just get he can just pay people to
26:08help him. He doesn't need he doesn't
26:09need free help. Free untrained help to
26:12your point. Yeah. I mean it's actually a
26:14cost to those people to spend the time
26:16respond. Yeah. It's a total cost. Yeah.
26:19Yeah. What are some uh Oh, actually no.
26:21I also want to know so you're you're in
26:23Dubai right now. We we said that. Yeah.
26:26So when you were actually getting uh
26:30when you were getting clients before you
26:33were doing the implementation, were you
26:36doing that in Dubai? Yes. Yeah. The
26:39business was started in Dubai and has
26:41sort of blossomeen from there. Um but
26:44yeah, Dubai born and bred um agency was
26:47launched. I mean really like first
26:49iteration like 2010 SEO Sherper which is
26:52you know the the the agency that I have
26:56now is is now dating back to 2012. So
26:59yeah, it's going back a little while
27:01now. How are you how are you getting I
27:03mean you said you started with people
27:05that you knew, relationships that you
27:06had. Yeah. But I mean, were you going
27:08I'm just I'm curious because like I know
27:10I know what I did. I went to tech and
27:12business events in New York City every
27:13night and and I learned and I learned
27:16very I wouldn't even say quickly because
27:18I'm a I was a slow learner with this. I
27:21tried bouncing around night after night
27:23just saying hi do SEO, hi do SEO, hi do
27:25SEO, not even getting to know people and
27:27that didn't work and it was a lot of
27:28pain. And then I started creating actual
27:31relationships with people and and and
27:34real friendships with people, listening
27:36to people and not selling myself and and
27:39only talking about myself when people
27:41asked about me and then that's actually
27:44what helped me get get clients. Yeah.
27:46But were so when you were in Dubai, were
27:49you going to a lot of networking events
27:50to meet people or like how were you
27:52especially before you were a name, how
27:54were you doing it? Yeah, I did a lot of
27:56that also. Um,
27:59I was a member of uh BNI. I'm I'm sure
28:04many of the the listeners would have
28:06heard of that. I think it's a pretty
28:07international organization. Um, and that
28:10too was very very successful. I mean
28:13really for the same reasons that going
28:15back to my existing network was also
28:18successful because it's the type of
28:20environment where you can build high
28:22levels of trust and become known you
28:25know for a particular discipline. So
28:27therefore you can become more referable.
28:29So those things I did a lot of um I did
28:34then off the back of that um whatever
28:36sort of speaking opportunity I could get
28:39like however small to whatever group it
28:41would be. So I remember speaking to you
28:44know the Scandinavian business
28:46organization, the British business
28:48organization. I really did the rounds
28:50early days to sort of try and build up.
28:52Were you pitching people to being like,
28:54"Hey, I do SEO. I'd love to speak at at
28:56your event or like how are you doing
28:57that?" Um, yeah, I did some outbound.
29:01Yeah, for sure. I understood like who
29:02was putting on events and typically
29:04whether those events had some form of
29:07guest speaker and then I put together um
29:10a very simple like onepage like speaker
29:14like promo leaflet um which would cover
29:17like the topics that I would speak on.
29:19It would link to some recordings of some
29:22presentations that I'd done before and I
29:24pushed that out. Um, I would always ask
29:26for referral after I'd done one speaking
29:29event, like who else do you know that
29:31has other opportunities similar to this
29:33that you could refer me to? Um, and it
29:36snowballed uh from there. How are you
29:39finding the events?
29:42It's a good question. I think uh
29:44probably things like Eventbrite or
29:48whatever the equivalent was, you know,
29:50of that time. I'd also just find out
29:52about them because, you know, a lot of
29:54people that might be, let's say, part of
29:56a BNI group would also be part of uh
29:59another organization that's also
30:01business focused, right? So, I'd find
30:03out from them, well, like what else do
30:05you go to that is sort of business
30:08networking orientated? Um, and I kind of
30:11find out about a lot of stuff through
30:12the grapevine that way. You know why?
30:14You know why I love that? Because so I
30:18don't I don't know about you, I get so
30:20many especially now that like my
30:23followers have grown- on social media,
30:25but even with this podcast, I just get
30:27so many people pitching DMing me,
30:31pitching me their services. It's and
30:34it's it's there there are people and all
30:36they do is they spend their time just
30:39DMing people hoping they'll say yes. And
30:42the percentage of people who are going
30:43to say yes. Very very very very slim.
30:46And it also it hurts it hurts your your
30:48algorithms hurts your social media makes
30:50it so your content might be seen as
30:53spammy and and might actually like
30:54underperform. And instead,
30:57you could do what you what you just did,
31:00which is or what you said you you did,
31:02which is find events that are happening
31:04in your area that are in your niche,
31:08put together basically a press kit and
31:11then and then instead of pitching these
31:13people who don't who most likely are
31:16going to say no to what you are selling
31:19and hurting your algorithm, pitch
31:21yourself to people who are a lot more
31:23interested in in having you and having
31:26an expert as a speaker and then
31:30in in a relevant event and then actually
31:33getting clients from that because you
31:35are literally if you're standing on a
31:36stage and you are talking Yeah. you are
31:39being framed as the expert in in in this
31:41thing and people are going to come up to
31:42you afterward after afterwards and
31:44people are going to contact you and
31:45that's just how it works. You are being
31:46framed as the expert. Yeah. Oh, 100%.
31:50Yeah. It's like crazy social proof.
31:53Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And there's al
31:56also so much more follow through that um
31:58you get from speaking at these events
32:00too, right? So once you've
32:03been uh on stage and you've got
32:05photographs for it or you've got some
32:07video clips, those things have great
32:09traction across social media and
32:10position you as an expert there. It's as
32:13much about what you do after the event
32:14sometimes um as much it is about the
32:17event and the opportunity that's in the
32:19room, I think. But yeah, so I think
32:21whatever level that you can start at,
32:24you have you definitely have knowledge
32:26and expertise that many people could
32:28learn learn from. However new or novice
32:32you think you are right now in this
32:34space, you are going to know a lot more
32:37than the general public and therefore
32:38you can you can teach and you can
32:40demonstrate your expertise and you can
32:41be positioned as a expert or a thought
32:44leader comparative to those people. Um
32:47and yeah, generate a lot of business as
32:49a result of it. That's such a good point
32:51which is like yeah you might you might
32:53feel imposter syndrome but you still
32:56most likely know a lot more about the
32:58subject matter than the people who are
33:00in the audience. Yeah 100%. Also I like
33:04what you what you said. So yeah you
33:06share it you shared on LinkedIn after
33:08you shared on Instagram. It's like look
33:10I spoke at this thing one time and and
33:12you might like maybe someone's listening
33:14well what if nobody shows up. One time
33:16we actually were premiering a product
33:19and we we were on stage and the the main
33:23stage had like a ton of people and we
33:25were off on the side stage that had I
33:27think like two people in the audience.
33:29Funny enough, one of the people ended up
33:31investing in our company but like the
33:34two people didn't Yeah, it was it was
33:35crazy. But the still like two people in
33:38in an audience meant for like 50 people
33:41looked really really really really bad.
33:43And so we we we tal we like used this in
33:48our in our company press so much, but we
33:52never showed the audience. We only
33:54showed the stage and you couldn't you
33:57couldn't tell that like and and it's
33:58funny because the presentation was great
34:00and you would watch it and you would
34:01never be able to tell that there was
34:03nobody in the audience. And actually now
34:06with AI, you could probably just like
34:08you could probably just just paint it
34:11and uh and make something really
34:13convincing. But um yeah, what you do
34:15afterwards is so important. The speaking
34:17thing the speaking thing is was great.
34:20Yeah, that's all good. All good
34:22marketing. I remember some instances
34:24when I first got started sort of
34:26speaking on stage and I would be, you
34:29know, part of these sort of multi-
34:30speakeraker events and my, you know,
34:33press kit then would always mention who
34:36I'd shared the stage with. Um, even if I
34:38didn't directly share the stage with
34:40them, they might happen to have been on
34:41a slot like three slots before or the
34:43previous day or something. I I would
34:46really leverage that. It's all about
34:47positioning and framing, right? Um, and
34:50uh, that's what's going to give your
34:51potential, you know, customers the
34:52confidence to invest in you. So, that's
34:54a good thing. I uh, I I I went on stage
34:58one time directly after Gary Gendler who
35:02became I think was head of the SEC of
35:05the Securities and Exchange Commission.
35:07And um, I went on literally directly
35:10after him. And he's not really a popular
35:13figure in in business at all, but he's a
35:16very reputable figure. is a big name and
35:19and so I would use that and everything.
35:21Yeah. Shared a stage with Gary Gendler
35:23and I would yeah I would say that I
35:25would say that to everybody. Um it's
35:27yeah like you said all about all about
35:29positioning. Uh oh yeah and so what was
35:32it like actually uh what was it like in
35:35Dubai doing this? Like were the people
35:38this was in 2010 you were go you're
35:40going to business events in Dubai. The
35:42city is developing. I'm just like I'm
35:45just very because Dubai 15 years ago I
35:48mean and going to business events that
35:51must have been a trip that must have
35:53been crazy.
35:54Yeah, Dubai as you might expect for a
35:57new city has changed rapidly over that
36:00time frame. Um and if I rewind the clock
36:04to like the yeah the 20 the 2010 period
36:09it it really was a wild west at at that
36:12stage. in our industry space it was I
36:16mean it was many steps behind the
36:19developed markets like the UK and the
36:22US. So stuff that I was sort of able to
36:26do here in this market might seem as
36:29being sort of like relatively advanced
36:33but maybe by sort of US, UK, European
36:36standards um probably wasn't. And also
36:40it was at that at that time not really a
36:44digitized market. I mean yes you know
36:46people had websites but like a lot of
36:49companies didn't even in like 2010 like
36:51it was crazy. So a lot of what we were
36:53talking about conceptually when it um
36:55spoke to SEO was totally new to people.
36:58like it was really a market that we
37:00needed to um educate a lot in like
37:04really not just explain what SEO was but
37:07also you know what value it had. Um
37:11um so yeah it was really interesting. I
37:13mean it's it's very very different now.
37:15I mean as you might expect it's one of
37:16the most sort of advanced markets in the
37:18world and it's doing some really um
37:20really crazy and innovative things but
37:22that wasn't Dubai in 2010. was um you
37:25know almost a sort of a first world um
37:28sort of infrastructure with bit of a
37:30third world mentality at that particular
37:32time. It was a really interesting place
37:33to be a part of. Would you say it was
37:35easy? You're like SEO and they're like,
37:37"Oh, I've heard about that. I need
37:39that." Or would you say it was you had
37:40to actually educate people?
37:43Um yeah, I think it it I mean it
37:46depends. It depends how you look at it.
37:48I mean, you know, now you would say
37:50there's a lot more competition. So you
37:53know that of course brings its
37:54challenges. There wasn't so much
37:56competition you know at that time but
37:58there also wasn't so much demand you
38:01know people were not actively looking
38:03for SEO services in the way that they
38:05would be um today. So we had to do a lot
38:09more of this kind of educational stuff
38:11which is why I would you know focus a
38:14lot on going to these events and
38:15speaking. I would produce video content
38:18every single you know week doing these
38:20kind of industry updates. I would be
38:22really active with my email list. I mean
38:24there was a there was a real yeah sort
38:27of nurturing process that took place. A
38:30huge amount of content marketing that
38:31was done really just to you know educate
38:34um our potential you know uh clients
38:37into what we did and and how it might
38:39affect them really.
38:42What were some mistakes that you made
38:44that caused you to lose to lose clients
38:46early on? Some somewhere some mistakes
38:48where you're like, "Okay, I need to
38:50learn from this. Okay, I'm going to
38:51internalize this. I'm not going to make
38:53this. That one hurt."
38:55Um what would be some big ones? Um first
39:00one that would come to mind would be um
39:05expectation management and also like
39:09contract lengths.
39:11I really wore it as a badge of honor in
39:13the early days that I was like, you
39:15know, there's all these other agencies
39:17trying to lock you into like long-term
39:20plans, you know, 6 12 month contracts.
39:23We don't do any of that. You can come on
39:25board with us as long as you commit to,
39:27you know, 3 months we'll work with you.
39:30Um, I mean, great as a sales hook,
39:32really bad in terms of client retention
39:34because the expectations you set are
39:37completely wrong. um you know people
39:39think that they're going to get the
39:41outcome that they want within 3 months
39:42and also attracts the wrong sort of
39:44client and as a result of that of course
39:46you know churn was really high which um
39:48is really expensive when you have to
39:50replace a client after 3 months with
39:52another client um it's both expensive on
39:55time and also expensive on cash in terms
39:58of marketing and opportunity and that's
40:00definitely that would definitely be one
40:04um secondly I would say also payment
40:09terms. Um we lost a lot of clients
40:12through that. Um so you know we would in
40:16the early days sort of invoice monthly.
40:19That has two problems. One is you know
40:22you are
40:24um you basically ensuring that there's a
40:26really tiny look back window. So every
40:29single month they have to you know
40:32actually make a decision to pay and if
40:34they haven't seen enough work or seen
40:35enough results in that month they can
40:37choose um not to. Um and it also it
40:41forces a decision in and of itself
40:43right. So, you know, as soon as we then
40:45switch to, you know, sort of
40:47subscription credit card billing or
40:49incentivizing longer longerterm payment
40:52plans like, you know, pay for three or
40:53six months or even a year at a time and
40:55get incentives that made a made made a
40:57huge difference. But I would say the the
41:00biggest thing and and it's still the
41:01case today is really managing that on
41:06boarding period is starting as strong as
41:11you can. And that's not necessarily in
41:14terms of results because we all know
41:16that with SEO results take time, but
41:19it's really ensuring that you um
41:22overindex on things like communication
41:26and speed of execution and like
41:29frequency of updates, frequency of
41:31deliverable. So almost overwhelming them
41:33with like the pace and the volume at
41:36which you execute that they can then
41:38enter into that relationship early on
41:40and go, "Right, okay, I'm in safe hands
41:41here. I'll give these guys a little bit
41:43of a um a free reign to get on and do
41:45their work. The very worst thing that
41:48you can do, you know, when you on board
41:49a client is go silent. Um even for one
41:52or two days, you really need to make
41:54sure that you're, you know,
41:56demonstrating that you're, you know,
41:58you're working on stuff, you're moving
41:59the project forward. And if you can get
42:01off to a really good start where you
42:02build confidence um with the client,
42:04that will that will buy you a huge
42:06amount of time then to actually generate
42:08results, which is ultimately what the
42:10clients come for and what they'll stick
42:11around for.
42:13I uh so not long after I read your SEO
42:18SEO experiments article, I started
42:20working I started doing SEO at Densu
42:22Eegis and uh it was I was at I prospect
42:25under Densu and I was doing uh SEO for
42:28clients like Proctor and Gamble and for
42:32uh for Lexodica just some of the biggest
42:34companies in the world and it was
42:37nonstop communication about everything.
42:41I learned so much about how to manage
42:46clients and and how to show that you're
42:49serious to clients. And it's not just,
42:52you know, your keyword moved up this
42:55amount or down this amount. It's this is
42:58the news in the industry today and then
43:01the next day this is the new news in the
43:03industry today. And even if there's no
43:05news, you're still you're still figuring
43:07out how to spin up news so that it's
43:10like, okay, this guy is on top of it.
43:12This company is on top of it. Any
43:15anything that is changing, they are
43:17managing it all. I don't even have to
43:19think because they're so on top of it.
43:21Yeah. And yeah, I mean, a lot of people
43:23watch my show just to learn what's going
43:25on in the industry. So they can tell
43:27their clients, hey, this is what's going
43:28on. This is what we're looking at.
43:31like and the these are the changes that
43:33are happening and yeah it's constant
43:36communication and I mean you're you're
43:38totally right. I mean think about if
43:40you're paying somebody for a service and
43:43then you start paying them and then you
43:44don't hear from them. That's the worst
43:47thing that's the worst thing in the
43:48world. You you want to know that your
43:51money is being put to good use. Yeah. I
43:53mean all of us that have an agency are
43:55in a client servicing business that also
43:57happen to do a service on the back end.
43:59Like that is the number one thing that
44:01you have to take care of is the client
44:03service first because you know if they
44:06if if they like feel that you you've not
44:09got everything lined up and you're on
44:12top of things then they're going to drop
44:13you like a drop you like a stone. Um and
44:16I've seen you know great account great
44:18account managers you know carry
44:20underperforming accounts for a long time
44:22until we've been able to get results. Um
44:25whereas if those relationships hadn't
44:27have been built, the client would have
44:28looked at the numbers and then they
44:29canceled the contract, you know. So it's
44:32a it's a huge skill and one of the most
44:34important let's say functions in the
44:36business, the most important hires you
44:37can make is those people that are really
44:39managing those client relationships and
44:41expectations.
44:42Okay? So you're uh so okay, you're
44:44starting with zero dollars. And you know
44:47what? I'm going to make it hard on you.
44:48You have no you have no connections to
44:50go to.
44:51Maybe like I don't know, maybe you have
44:53like a few thousand dollars in savings.
44:56Okay. And and yeah, so now you you need
44:58to get clients. You're going to events.
45:01You're you you have some SEO knowledge.
45:04You're you're you're pitching to be a
45:06speaker at at other events. You're going
45:08to events every night or every day.
45:10You're meeting people. You're getting
45:11referrals. How are you structuring your
45:14business for new clients? What are what
45:17do your deals look like in terms of like
45:19this is how are you managing
45:21expectations? How are you invoicing? How
45:24are how are you doing that if you're
45:25just starting?
45:27Yeah. So,
45:29um you want to just keep I mean keep the
45:31process as simple as as possible. I mean
45:34typically you'll you'll sell a client
45:37with some form of um sort of diagnostic
45:40sales process. Um so, you know, you'll
45:43have conversations with with
45:44opportunities. you'll understand where
45:46they're at now, where they want to get
45:47to. And then typically um if that client
45:51is a good fit for you in terms of client
45:54fit, budgets, those sorts of things,
45:56then um you know, typically then you'll
45:59do then some form of sort of highle
46:02strategy where you can demonstrate your
46:03expertise and the general approach and
46:05off the back of that then you'll make a
46:06sales offer, right? Um so what that
46:09would lead to then is some form of
46:13service agreement. I think that's really
46:15really important that you have a good
46:18well ststructured yet simple um service
46:21agreement that lays out the expectations
46:23of both parties. Um so we will do this
46:26but we also expect you will do that. Um
46:28that will include your your payment
46:30terms um the deliverables,
46:33client servicing expectations, those
46:36sorts of things. And then once that's
46:38signed of course you'll you'll you'll
46:40get them um on boarded. Um, I would
46:43always recommend, as we've kind of
46:44alluded to, to to get paid up front. You
46:46don't want to be um cash flowing or or
46:49or um bankrolling a client. So, make
46:53sure that you get paid up front. at
46:57minimum if you're on a monthly retainer
46:59type relationship which is what I would
47:01recommend for most people getting
47:03started um that you at least get you
47:05know one month up front but where
47:07possible as I said earlier try and
47:09extend that uh window out as far as
47:12possible and you would be surprised
47:14there is a lot of clients who will pay
47:17um annually upfront if you ask um and
47:20you'll certainly be able to get clients
47:22to pay quarterly and if you can do that
47:24one it's much better for your your cash
47:26flow, right? Because it's money sitting
47:28in your bank that you can dispose as you
47:30need to. Uh but also, as I said before,
47:34it also increases that look back window.
47:36So now when they next have to pay you,
47:39you've got three months under the belt
47:41and all of that additional time um and
47:44relationship building and work execution
47:46done um that they've got to, you know,
47:49consider before they make a an next
47:51payment. Um so those would be some of
47:53the important things in terms of team
47:55structure. I mean, if you get started
47:56with a sort of white label outsource
47:58model, you know, you could get started
48:00on your own, no problems. Um, you just
48:03need to have some, you know, sort of uh
48:06nicely structured sort of account
48:08management processes and probably some
48:10sort of like help desk or account
48:12management email that you do everything
48:13through. Once you've got a, you know, a
48:17pool of clients, and I would strongly
48:19recommend that anyone's first hire is
48:21someone that can do the account
48:22management who basically is the point of
48:25contact for the client that then works
48:27as the conduit between the client and
48:30then the outsource partner that you're
48:32using to to actually deliver the work.
48:34And that's probably the simplest
48:36structure uh to get started with.
48:39Who do you have uh giving updates like
48:41industry updates or or updates progress
48:45updates? Is it the account manager?
48:47Yeah, in our agency now, yeah, I mean
48:49we're like 65 people now. Um we have um
48:53yeah, many many account managers um sort
48:56of each leading their own sort of mini
48:58agency within the agency. Um and they
49:01will be the ones that are the primary
49:04point of contact. So, not only are they
49:06going to be updating the client on,
49:08well, where's the project at, what have
49:10we delivered this week, what do we need
49:12your feedback on, all that sort of
49:13stuff, they're also the one that's, you
49:15know, driving those conversations as
49:17well. So, here's what's happening in the
49:19industry. Here's some great results
49:20we've got for you since last week. Um,
49:23they're leading all that all that sort
49:24of stuff. Yeah.
49:26Are you um are you doing anything with
49:28AI now, especially AI agents?
49:31Yeah, I mean we're we're doing um a lot
49:34in the agency and and that's only going
49:36to increase over time. So we have uh an
49:39AI lead. um we actually have someone
49:42who's who's solely responsible for that
49:43function within the agency and what they
49:47are tasked with is um essentially
49:52simplifying process and replacing
49:55repetitive human-driven
49:58um work with AI wherever possible. And
50:01we've got like loads of use cases for
50:03it. everything from like execution work,
50:05you know, tools that, you know, use AI
50:08to write alt tags for instance, um, as
50:11one use case all the way through to like
50:13client intelligence stuff. Um, last year
50:16for instance, we built a huge model
50:20internally
50:21um, which allows us to evaluate the
50:27client risk of churn. So we call it like
50:29churn prediction modeling based upon all
50:31these sorts of different data points
50:33like um client sentiment um like how
50:38long since you know how long does it
50:39take them to pay their bill beer like
50:40all of these different inputs to then
50:42understand okay is this client at risk
50:44you know do we need to be reaching out
50:45to them building strong relationships
50:46those sorts of things so um yeah we've
50:49got many different use cases in the
50:50agency right now that is so cool that is
50:53so smart that so and it's that's easy
50:55data that's the the AI is sitting in on
50:58meetings. You have you have meetings
51:00meetings know you have transcriptions.
51:01You have emails. You have the the it
51:04knows the pricing. It knows the
51:05progress. It knows everything. How how
51:08often have you had uh AI make like have
51:11you had to deal with AI making bad calls
51:13very frequently and that costing you a
51:15lot of time and money or or has that
51:17been managed pretty well in that
51:19context? No. Um I mean in the example of
51:23what we call the CRPM, the client
51:26retention prediction model, um it's been
51:29crazy accurate. Um I mean we have had
51:34instances where we've seen clients hit a
51:37risk status of 8 or 9, which is like a
51:40risk status out of 10. Um and then no
51:44kidding like a week later we've got an
51:45email to say like we're handing in our
51:47notice. So it's given us the confidence
51:49that actually okay this is picking up on
51:51things that may be outside of our field
51:53of vision. Therefore we should use this
51:55data to really get in front of those
51:58things. And in that example I mean
51:59there's no there's no there's no
52:02downside to then like overd delivering
52:05on like clientled activities right just
52:09giving a client a little bit more love
52:10and attention making sure they're
52:11getting results if we see that score go
52:13up. So that's also helped just the
52:15general client sentiment and
52:16relationship building that that we've
52:18had. Um in terms of like other execution
52:20tools, not that I'm aware of, but I'm
52:23sure the team would probably be able to
52:24highlight some or they're bit more close
52:26to it than I am. If I mean I don't know,
52:30it seems like you just answered this,
52:31but I I'll ask anyway. So like if Yeah.
52:33If you were if you were starting, if you
52:35were starting again and maybe you were a
52:38few months into it now, you had, let's
52:40say, you had just a couple clients, you
52:42didn't have zero dollars in the bank
52:43anymore or or a few thousand in savings
52:46anymore, would you build would you build
52:49AI agents like at this point or would
52:51you wait to build AI agents? And if you
52:53would build AI agents, what what sort of
52:55things do you think you would make early
52:56on?
52:58Um I mean I would be I would be looking
53:01at it very seriously. Um as I am also
53:06now um in fact we've just come out of
53:07our uh monthly leadership team meeting
53:10and I've really set a directive for the
53:13team that now any hiring decision must
53:16be validated by proof that we can't have
53:20AI do what you're asking that new hire
53:23to do before we make that like hiring
53:25decision. So if I was also at that point
53:28where I was thinking about building a
53:30team, I would be looking very very
53:33closely at can I actually have AI
53:35perform this function because AI pitch
53:37your pitch your speaking engagements for
53:40sure. Absolutely. I mean it it it can do
53:44so much. It it's it's crazy. And if
53:48you're in an agency business, I mean,
53:50the historic agency business, by far,
53:54your biggest cost is going to be your
53:56people. I mean, for us, um, I mean, our
53:59wages to sale ratio, it's something that
54:01we actively really, really track, um,
54:03for profitability is at about 50%. So,
54:0750% of what the agency bills clients
54:11then go straight out in staffing. So if
54:15you could remove that, what does that do
54:17to your profit margins and your ability
54:19to scale? Like increases it massively.
54:21So I think everyone's really facing that
54:24at this point. I think there's
54:25definitely a huge advantage to someone
54:27coming into the market and starting an
54:30agency now is because they haven't got
54:33um that legacy constraint of probably
54:36having a very people intensive business.
54:38they can actually be very very agile and
54:40adopt this technology probably easier
54:43than maybe a larger organization than
54:45us. Um so yeah, I would I don't I
54:49definitely wouldn't have
54:51um let's say a plan to build a 65
54:54headcount agency if I was getting
54:55started now. Um I think I would be
54:57looking um a lot more efficient methods
54:59to get that sort of scale and
55:00effectiveness.
55:01What are your uh what what are your best
55:03acquisition channels now? And are are
55:06there any acquisition channels where you
55:08feel you're lagging in that you're
55:09really excited about?
55:12Um
55:13yeah, so our biggest ones uh currently
55:16are
55:18funnily enough what we do. So we get a
55:20lot of inbound through paid and organic
55:23search um as we should at an SEO agency.
55:27Um but we are really I mean we we're
55:29investing in a lot of a lot of areas and
55:32we are seeing a much greater
55:33diversification
55:35of the lead flow which is really good
55:37news for me because um you know I don't
55:40ever want to be you know single point
55:42sensitive um especially when it relates
55:45to search and all the changes that
55:47happening within within our space. Um so
55:50we're definitely seeing more of a shift.
55:52Um there's definitely a lot more volume
55:56coming through organic social. Um so
55:59that's both searchled, organic so social
56:01and sort of communityled and followerled
56:04stuff. Um we're seeing a big uptick in
56:07AI as well. So chat GPT is one of our
56:11fastest growing um lead sources at the
56:15moment. Um we're doing a lot more. Could
56:17you share could you share an example of
56:19uh of like a chat GPT query leading to
56:22awareness for SEO Sherpa leading to
56:26maybe how how this person or company
56:29would convert into a client. Um most of
56:32what we've seen through AI so far has
56:36actually been very much like botfunnel
56:37bottom of funnel type queries. So it's
56:40been you know best SEO agency in target
56:43location that type of stuff. Um that's
56:47generally what we've seen what we've
56:48seen so far. Um can't put my finger on
56:52too much that's kind of more kind of
56:53like um top of top of funnel. Um but
56:58we're definitely seeing some more kind
56:59of interesting conversion path. I mean
57:02there's there's far greater degree of
57:05messiness in the middle of the of the
57:08conversion journey than there ever was.
57:09It's definitely not a one or two click
57:12sort of transactional um conversion path
57:14these days. So um what is coming up in
57:17our discovery calls when we're speaking
57:18to prospects is just um the variety and
57:23number of different touch points that
57:26people are being exposed to now before
57:28they actually choose to reach out and
57:30and have a conversation with us. Um so
57:34this concept of search everywhere which
57:35we're really trying to kind of pioneer
57:38um is becoming increasingly important.
57:40And I mean, you do literally have to be
57:41in in many different places to stand a
57:43chance these days.
57:45Yeah. Actually, um, you know, the
57:47biggest I made a recent episode about
57:49this. The the most clicked sites now
57:51from Google are UGC places like
57:55Instagram or Tik Tok and and how I think
57:59video is just the craziest. Short form
58:01video is the craziest channel because
58:03you can make one video, it
58:04simultaneously comes out on every
58:06platform as at once. It ranks really
58:09well. If you know how to target keywords
58:11with video, it ranks really, really
58:12well. Like, you're putting in 5 to 20
58:15minutes of work to have a video, a piece
58:18of content, targeting a keyword that has
58:20a high chance of ranking coming out onto
58:24every major platform that is getting the
58:27most clicks from Google at the same time
58:30for 5 to 20 minutes. That is that is
58:32incredible.
58:34Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say I'd love
58:36to know what you think because I'm sure
58:38you know these podcasts that you do you
58:40probably slice and dice those and and
58:42distribute them across these short form
58:44video platforms. What what are you
58:46seeing in terms of your visibility
58:48across you know maybe Instagram, Tik
58:50Tok, YouTube shorts and and stuff. It's
58:53really high there there there are some
58:55there are some keywords where I
58:56literally have three out of the four top
59:00positions for the keywords and it's
59:02literally and it's all video. It's like
59:05I I find a keyword, I make three videos
59:07about it, and I have three out of the
59:10four top positions for that keyword
59:12because searchers want video, too. It's
59:15more engaging. Short form video, it's
59:17more engaging. It's faster.
59:20It's like and and if you target the
59:22keyword properly, it's giving searchers
59:24exactly what they're looking for. Yeah.
59:26Yeah. It's it's amazing. And then also I
59:28use uh I I use keywords in my
59:32descriptions as well for these podcasts
59:34or or or for my shorts and my videos
59:38rank really well within YouTube and uh
59:41Oh yeah, video is crazy. It's great. I
59:45still like Yeah, go on. I was going to
59:46say, what are you seeing then in terms
59:48of brand uplift? Are you noticing that
59:51as a result of this increased exposure
59:53that you're getting across these
59:54platforms, people are searching you or
59:57your show name more frequently? Um, and
1:00:00you're actually then influencing what
1:00:01happens inside Google search as well.
1:00:04People are searching the name of my SEO
1:00:05course, compact keywords, a lot. And uh,
1:00:09yeah, in fact, now that people are
1:00:11bidding on the bidding on the name of my
1:00:14course. Um so yeah so people are people
1:00:17are searching that um people are
1:00:20searching my name all the time. Uh in
1:00:23fact now I have if you search my name it
1:00:25it's called Google calls me an internet
1:00:27celebrity and so take that. Yeah I'll
1:00:30take I'll take it. Um but I mean just
1:00:33the amount of people who have discovered
1:00:34my content from search and then have
1:00:37started binge watching is enormous. It's
1:00:40like any industry that you're in, and I
1:00:43I say this so often because like imagine
1:00:45this, you could spend you could spend a
1:00:47few days, maybe one or two days, making
1:00:50a page to target a keyword. And and
1:00:53that's great. You should you should do
1:00:54that. I I still really believe in
1:00:56conventional search, especially for
1:00:58bottom ofunnel queries, like you said.
1:01:00Yeah. I I still think it is the most
1:01:02amazing thing because
1:01:05the only way the only other way to reach
1:01:07people who are looking to purchase right
1:01:09now for what you are selling they
1:01:12looking to purchase right now the only
1:01:13other way to do that is to spend money
1:01:14on ads. Yeah. But with botmafunnel
1:01:18organic search these queries are
1:01:20typically not very competitive. They
1:01:22don't take a lot of words to rank for.
1:01:24Um, and because they're not competitive,
1:01:26you target the keyword exactly, you have
1:01:29a high chance of ranking for it. And
1:01:31again, it's bottom of funnel. People are
1:01:32literally looking for what you offer and
1:01:35they just don't know. They don't know
1:01:36your brand. They don't know the brand.
1:01:38They don't know the brand that's going
1:01:39to satisfy their need, their need. And
1:01:41so, you target these keywords. Yeah. And
1:01:42that's like it's the most amazing thing.
1:01:44That's the it's the only thing where you
1:01:46don't have to pay spend money for ads.
1:01:47You put up a page and then because these
1:01:49keywords are not competitive, it they
1:01:52rank number one for years, five years,
1:01:55six years, seven years, more like it's
1:01:57it's amazing. But you you you know, you
1:02:00spend a day or two making that page and
1:02:03then this content is top of mind for
1:02:05you. This keyword is top of mind. Spend
1:02:07five or or 20 minutes also making a
1:02:09video for it because the video has a
1:02:12high chance of ranking as well. Yeah. I
1:02:15think the age that we're in now where
1:02:17you know there is and obviously an
1:02:20overwhelming amount of you know media
1:02:23that we're exposed to each and every
1:02:25day. the amount of um touch points that
1:02:28we need to influence our potential, you
1:02:31know, customers, you know, now is is
1:02:32just growing and growing. And, you know,
1:02:35these sort of short form kind of like
1:02:37videos,
1:02:38um, YouTube, Tik Tok, wherever, it gives
1:02:41you that chance to actually sort of
1:02:43indoctrinate, if you want to kind of
1:02:44call it call it that, your, you know,
1:02:46potential audience. Um, and that makes a
1:02:48big difference. It's very very rare, you
1:02:51know, just to
1:02:54uh be able to influence to any great
1:02:55degree, you know, a distinction
1:02:57perspective. Yeah. The distinction,
1:02:59sorry to interrupt, is is with high
1:03:01ticket items like like agency work.
1:03:04That's where you need to have like a lot
1:03:06of like you're you could rank for a
1:03:08bottom of funnel query and say, you
1:03:09know, we do this, we do it well. here's
1:03:11like here's usea here's uh case studies
1:03:15and all this stuff like here's evidence
1:03:17but people are still going to want that
1:03:18social proof. They're going to want to
1:03:20see you quoted in publications. They're
1:03:23going to want to see those those
1:03:25speaking pictures and those speaking
1:03:26videos. They're going to want to see you
1:03:28on social media for for uh for in
1:03:32inexpensive items. People will convert
1:03:34right there which is which is amazing.
1:03:36But yeah, at the touch points,
1:03:38especially like with agency work, like
1:03:40you said, like you need to have a lot of
1:03:41touch points and that's also why like
1:03:44the best form of I I think the best form
1:03:47of link building that you can do is
1:03:49traditional external marketing. It
1:03:52brings you back links, but it also puts
1:03:54your brand in all these different
1:03:55places. So when someone is looking to
1:03:58convert for that high ticket item, they
1:04:00see all the external marketing that
1:04:01you've done that has also brought you
1:04:03the back links and then they convert.
1:04:05Yeah. and sounds like and also becoming
1:04:08increasingly important in the age of AI
1:04:10where you know frequency of co-itations
1:04:13or or co-mentions however we want to
1:04:14describe it is is really really
1:04:16important as well right so more of this
1:04:19sort of traditionally sort of PRled type
1:04:21activity is is more important now than
1:04:24probably it ever was super important I'm
1:04:27going to leave I want to leave people
1:04:29with uh this last question as we wrap um
1:04:32okay so again like especially for people
1:04:35who are learning SEO and uh you maybe
1:04:39they're they're just starting to to sell
1:04:41their expertise. People who are new who
1:04:43are newer um or or yourself, I don't
1:04:46know, or yourself 15 years ago,
1:04:49what would be your like top one or two
1:04:53pieces of advice
1:04:55for learning SEO for for people who are
1:04:58just beginning their journeys? They're
1:05:00they're learning SEO. They're starting
1:05:02by selling it. they want to have an
1:05:04agency at least for now or they want to
1:05:07get clients or maybe they have clients
1:05:09and they want to scale up.
1:05:12Um
1:05:14so the first one I would say would be to
1:05:18launch a side project. So have
1:05:23a website a small kind of side business
1:05:26of your own to practice on. Um it's
1:05:31going to put you at the cold face.
1:05:32you're going to understand the industry,
1:05:34you're going to understand what's
1:05:35working much better, and it will give
1:05:36you the context, the business, and the
1:05:39SEO context that would be needed to
1:05:41actually help um you know, people um so
1:05:44your potential clients and and
1:05:46prospects. Um and the second one I would
1:05:49give probably from an agency standpoint
1:05:51is would be to remove yourself um from
1:05:55the business as as soon as you can. In
1:05:57other words, remove yourself from the
1:05:59client management, the execution work,
1:06:02and focus as much of your time on
1:06:06getting clients
1:06:08um as you possibly can because otherwise
1:06:11you're going to get kind of stuck in
1:06:12this sort of capacity seesaw where
1:06:15you'll get a client and then you have to
1:06:16start executing on the work and then
1:06:19when that client goes, you then have to
1:06:21get back to selling again and you're in
1:06:22this like constant like sort of seessaw
1:06:25of of trying to go grow your business.
1:06:26So, as soon as you can get out and and
1:06:28really focus on actually growing the
1:06:30business, the better. And that's where
1:06:32the majority of your time should be
1:06:33spent. Man, that having your own project
1:06:38is such strong advice. It's underrated
1:06:42advice. When cuz when I was at I
1:06:44Prospect, a problem that I had is I felt
1:06:47like a lot of my colleagues just weren't
1:06:49serious about SEO.
1:06:51But I was I had been doing it with my
1:06:54own site for years.
1:06:56and and like it's no one even even if
1:07:00you have even if you have clients it
1:07:03it's different when you are trying to do
1:07:05SEO for your own thing you are so much
1:07:09you learn so much more you are so much
1:07:12deeper in it you're deep in it with
1:07:15clients as well but like when it's your
1:07:16own thing it's just um especially
1:07:19something because the thing about
1:07:20clients is clients come and go but your
1:07:23your own website you have that for I
1:07:25forever. And so you actually get to see
1:07:27how things change over years and you can
1:07:30make one little tweak and it'll it'll
1:07:32change something a year later. And you
1:07:34actually get to see that and you get the
1:07:36learnings like that and um but anyway,
1:07:38James, thank you for everything that you
1:07:40do. Thank you for the 21 SEO experiments
1:07:43that changed my life when I read it and
1:07:45uh for coming on the show. Um you have
1:07:47you you're oh actually I got to ask you
1:07:49about this because you are crushing on
1:07:51LinkedIn. You have I think 50,000
1:07:53followers on LinkedIn. you are such a
1:07:56notable person. Just uh if you could
1:07:59give if you could give a quick piece of
1:08:00advice for growing on it on LinkedIn
1:08:05LinkedIn growth uh tips. Um consistency
1:08:08is really important for the platform.
1:08:10It's also just important to kind of find
1:08:12your voice I think. So whilst I've not
1:08:15always been um let's say as consistent
1:08:19as I have been at least the last sort of
1:08:22year and a half or so I've been you know
1:08:24every single day posting there and
1:08:26that's kind of you know given me a kind
1:08:27of a style and a format and I think the
1:08:29second thing is you just really just
1:08:32stay in your lane. Um,
1:08:35I think I built a following on on
1:08:36LinkedIn because I really have just
1:08:39focused down on the SEO and the inbound
1:08:41marketing space. And because of that,
1:08:43I've become kind of known for it. And
1:08:46that of course then has so much more
1:08:47kind of sell through in terms of
1:08:49referability and people remembering me
1:08:52and and and so on and so forth. Um, so
1:08:54those would be yeah, those would be two
1:08:56things, consistency and um just really
1:08:58sticking to a niche. Niching down. Yeah.
1:09:01Where where should everybody find you?
1:09:04Yeah. So, as you as you mentioned,
1:09:06probably most active on on LinkedIn, so
1:09:08you can find me there by searching for
1:09:09James Reynolds. Um, I'm follow James on
1:09:13Instagram and all of the other social
1:09:16channels. And the agency, if people want
1:09:18to find out more about what we're doing
1:09:20there, is SEOSper, and that's at
1:09:22seossharper.com.
1:09:26Thank you again for coming on and uh
1:09:29stick around after while the video
1:09:30uploads when I hit stop recording. And
1:09:32for everybody who is watching and who is
1:09:35listening, this is episode 710
1:09:39of the Edward Show. This is my daily
1:09:41digital marketing show. 710 days in a
1:09:44row doing this show. No days missed.
1:09:47Crazy.
1:09:49Thank you so much for watching. Thank
1:09:50you so much for listening. And I will
1:09:53talk to you again tomorrow.

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This page contains the full transcript of How to Grow an SEO Agency from $0 to 8 Figures (with Lessons from 21 SEO Experiments) by Edward Sturm, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 12,631 words across 1,756 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

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Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.