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How To Fix Your Negative Patterns - Alain de Botton on Chris Williamson — Transcript

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0:00Alanda Boton welcome to the show thank
0:01you so much where do bad inner voices
0:04come from well the way I like to think
0:07about it is that an inner voice is
0:09always an outer voice that got
0:12internalized you know we're very porous
0:14people the way in which we're spoken to
0:17becomes the way in which we speak to
0:20ourselves I mean if that if that sounds
0:22too weird think of language right all of
0:24us um arrive in the world not speaking
0:28any language and by the age of 3 4 5 6 7
0:31you know we'll have learned a lot of
0:33words but the fascinating thing about
0:35human beings is um we don't know we're
0:37learning so we can be doing other stuff
0:40like you know doing handstands in the
0:41garden or drawing buttercups in the
0:43kitchen and we're becoming expert
0:46grammarians hundreds of words are
0:48entering our minds complex um
0:51grammatical constructions are entering
0:53our minds now the way I like to think
0:55about it is that that language analogy
0:59um holds true for emotional life as well
1:02so at the same time as we're learning a
1:04language of you know words and
1:07declensions we're also learning a
1:09language of emotions um we're learning
1:11things like what's a man like what's a
1:13woman like what happens if you give
1:15somewhat something to someone what
1:16happens if you're vulnerable what
1:17happens if you want to play what happens
1:19if you say no what happens if you say
1:21yes all of these are the syntax they
1:25comprise the syntax of our emotional
1:27lives and um it's an invisible syntax
1:30just as our grammatical syntax is
1:32invisible but it's there and it will
1:35operate throughout our lives and it will
1:37be immensely hard to change I mean you
1:40know what it's like if you're you know
1:41if you grew up speaking English and then
1:43you want to learn a foreign language you
1:44suddenly want to learn Italian well good
1:46luck to you you're going to be learning
1:48a long time it's not impossible can be
1:50done but I think it's helpful to think
1:52of how hard it is because sometimes
1:55people get very impatient in their
1:57attempts to change things about
1:58themselves they go I you know I want to
2:01change how I relate to people um in
2:04relationship say uh and I've read a book
2:06and I've I've been to three therapy
2:08sessions and um I'm really annoyed
2:10nothing works you want to go okay
2:12imagine this was Italian so you you
2:15you've looked at a book on Italian
2:16you've taken three classes and you don't
2:17speak fluent Italian and you're
2:18complaining so we do need some modesty
2:22here just in order to be properly
2:24ambitious I mean as you know you know
2:27the the the root cause of sort of early
2:30Despair and early retirement from things
2:31is a false picture of what success
2:34demands in an area and I think in the
2:37area of emotional Improvement or
2:39maturation we sometimes let ourselves
2:41down by thinking it's going to have an
2:43ease which it won't have it's
2:46interesting thinking about how language
2:48shapes our experience of emotions and
2:50our experience of the world that German
2:53for instance has a colorful number of
2:56ways to describe certain emotions that
2:58you can't in other he said well does the
3:00fact that we have the word for it almost
3:01unlock that emotion in a way it allows
3:03us to do self investigation yes I I
3:06think you know philosophers philosophers
3:09watching this philosophers of language
3:10may have um arguments prone in it's it's
3:13a big thing but I definitely feel that
3:16the more words we have the more we can
3:18attend to what we feel and in some cases
3:21the more we can feel um you know I I
3:24remember I remember learning the word
3:26anxiety when I was a teenager um and
3:29thinking wow that's a really useful word
3:31probably nowadays people learn anxiety a
3:33lot earlier but you know in those days
3:35um it was a fascinating word to learn
3:38and the more one's vocabulary stretches
3:40the more you're able to put a flag in
3:43bits of your psyche that are perhaps
3:45painful and I think if you think about
3:47why people go to psychotherapy or or
3:49even frankly what motivates a lot of
3:51friendship it's somebody else helps to
3:54give you a vocabulary for bits of your
3:56mind and bits of your experience that
3:58have not till now um you that of eluded
4:01definition and that definition is not
4:03merely you know it's not really a fancy
4:06thing it's it's a life-saving thing
4:08because the more you can Define um the
4:12easier life gets um Freud speculated
4:16that the the the the origins of language
4:19lie in an ability to Bear
4:22frustration so that if a child can think
4:26um you know I'm currently frustrated but
4:29you know Mommy's coming back and I've
4:32got and the person's got those words
4:35then that can help you to Bear missing
4:38and and also bear excitement or you know
4:41all sorts of things things can become
4:42more bearable the more you can put them
4:44into language and I think you know
4:47adults know this when we we go about
4:49journaling right you know what why why
4:50is it so helpful to journal um to you
4:54know because we we know it is all
4:55research shows it it is um what is it
4:59about
5:00translating a feeling into a word for
5:02that feeling that's helpful and I think
5:04it tames it um
5:07contains and it Narrows the spread of
5:12difficult emotions it's very ephemeral
5:14right you've got these thoughts up here
5:16moving around floating about and then
5:18they have to be concretized and it right
5:21almost feels like it squeezes it through
5:23an aperture of some kind you say okay
5:25this is what I meant by that it's not
5:27this notion it's not this sort of
5:29ambient
5:30s somebody shouted a a noise in the Next
5:32Room like oh no it's here I can touch it
5:34you can see it yeah yeah that's right
5:37and and you know think of think of
5:39relationships couples the more their
5:41vocabulary for what they're going
5:43through increases the more they can say
5:46you know I'm feeling this I'm feeling
5:48you know when you do that I feel this
5:50Etc and the enemy you know the sort of
5:53normal word is people say communication
5:54but it's really language it's it's
5:56putting language to to feelings and and
6:00so much goes wrong in life because we're
6:03unable to do it it start it starts with
6:05ourselves we can't do it with ourselves
6:08um there's a useful phrase that
6:09psychotherapists use to disassociation
6:12it's a fascinating concept what would it
6:14mean to disassociate and the way it's
6:16understood sort of therapeutically is
6:17that you could feel an emotion it's so
6:20difficult tricky in some way and you
6:22then stop feeling it you you
6:25disassociate from the feeling that's in
6:27you it's still in you but you're no
6:29longer registering it tricky tricky and
6:32the argument is always the more you can
6:36associate um and the less you can
6:38disassociate the better off you will be
6:41um but look there are many bits of life
6:44that are unbearable to us let's let's
6:46remember this um you there's a wonderful
6:49quote in Middle March George Elliott big
6:52fat 19th century novel where she
6:56says if we could properly register the
6:59sound of the sounds the full sounds of
7:02life
7:04um we would lose our minds from the full
7:09richness of existence in other words if
7:11you were sensitive to everything that's
7:14around you would sort of go mad you know
7:18and I
7:19think if we think about what Madness is
7:22soal you what colloquially called
7:24madness think of people with severe
7:26mental illness very often what what has
7:29happened happened is that their ability
7:30to sequence thoughts is gone everything
7:33is coming at them and they can't grade
7:36thoughts they can't say this thought
7:38must go away now you know so they'll go
7:40I made a mistake 15 years ago and if
7:43you're balanced you'll go well that was
7:4515 years ago and it's just it's not it's
7:46not a problem we can we we don't have to
7:48have it pressing down um if your if your
7:51reason is is buckling often everything
7:55that is alarming comes at you at once
7:58everything that is difficult at once and
8:01um so in a way I'm I'm sticking up for
8:05the ability sometimes to take distance
8:07from our feelings so you know I started
8:08off by going it's really important to to
8:10know what you're feeling but let's also
8:11remember at points the ability not to
8:15feel the full force of everything also
8:18belongs to health so it's it's
8:20double-edged sword there what's your
8:22advice for how people can heal a
8:24negative inner voice we've got this odd
8:28artifact that we've carried with us
8:30this inheritance of our life but kind of
8:32almost some previous life of
8:35ours where should people begin if they
8:37want to have a more friendly inner
8:40voice such a good question I'd say you
8:42have to start by finding the inner voice
8:45because it doesn't announce itself as an
8:48inner voice so how are we going to you
8:51know we're not we're not talking here
8:52about literally hearing voices some
8:53people do but we're not talking about
8:55that here what we're talking about is a
8:58way of speaking to yourself or way of
9:00you know way of conducting yourself in
9:02your own mind that owes more to
9:05something from outside than from inside
9:07and that is more negative or you can put
9:10it this way unfair to you and your
9:13chances your hopes Etc so how do we how
9:16do we detect this is even going on
9:18because I don't think it's necessarily
9:20obvious here I think that it's quite
9:22helpful to get people to do what are
9:24call sentence completion exercises where
9:27you start off with a sub sentence
9:30and then you have an ellipsis dot dot
9:31dot so men are women are life is I am I
9:37want if dot dot dot because dot dot dot
9:40and you say to people right here's a
9:41list these
9:43things without thinking too much very
9:45important important prompt without
9:47thinking too much just say the first
9:48thing comes into your head men are women
9:50are life is I am Etc um or or even
9:54beginnings of stories story completion
9:57exercises when I meet someone that die
10:00dot dot dot just finish finish that
10:01sentence and what people will come out
10:04with is fascinating they'll go you know
10:06men are cruel wow wow wow men are cruel
10:09are they you know person might even be
10:10surprised that they've said
10:12that then you say okay why's that come
10:15from where what what led you to believe
10:18that and often what you'll find is a
10:20story that owes more to something
10:22outside there something inside you know
10:25or um you know when when I meet someone
10:28what will happen is dot dot dot you know
10:31um they'll be very friendly to me then
10:32they'll turn against me wow wow where
10:35did that come
10:36from it's it's going to be a specific
10:39story in the past that you know is is
10:43being carried forward isn't it
10:44interesting that we're talking about
10:46maybe the thing people identify with
10:48most you know the texture of their own
10:51experience the landscape of their of
10:52their own mind but you're then saying
10:55well this may not fully be
10:57self-generated this might be something
11:00which you've absorbed from the past from
11:02society from Norms from cultures from
11:04the way that you've compensated for past
11:05traumas Etc or just habits yeah but it
11:09brings up an interesting question which
11:10is okay so who are you where are you in
11:14this are you that voice in some ways you
11:17are because you're inexorably linked to
11:19all of the experiences you've had yeah
11:22but then we have this sort of
11:23transcendent us which is better it's the
11:26better us yeah if only I could it's the
11:28me without the compensation the trauma
11:32the ETC such a good question you know
11:34we're not sometimes this idea of you
11:37know the real me that is separate from
11:39everybody else we are penetrated by
11:42Society you know think of how we're
11:44speaking right we're using words as we
11:46speak to one another every one of those
11:48words is both spoken by us and was made
11:51by other people long before we were even
11:53a rumor in anyone's mind right we are we
11:55are penetrated by Society every one of
11:58the words that I am using is the result
12:01of generations and generations of people
12:03who've used those words refined their
12:05meaning Etc and then given them to me so
12:08that's literally the language we're
12:09permeated by social language um even our
12:12biology as we know you our gut bacteria
12:15is you know both us and not us so the
12:18the neat you know Chris Al we are we are
12:21these sort of um you know entities where
12:23where you can put a strict circle around
12:26now we're we're we're interpenetrated by
12:30Society biology history uh you know Etc
12:34so then the question comes well is there
12:35anything you know that's that's more me
12:38less me and I think here absolutely
12:41absolutely and I think
12:43that one of the journeys you know life's
12:45full of Journeys one of the journeys
12:47that I think we all are on is to start
12:51to separate out a little bit well what I
12:54I can understand there's a lot in me
12:56that was just put there by Society by
12:59the context in which I was
13:00born which of those bits do I want to
13:02keep or focus on and which of those bits
13:05do not fully represent you know my
13:09values my considered choices Etc and
13:13this is where life gets interesting
13:14because people start to say things like
13:17where I come from normal meant dot dot
13:19dot but the more I think about it the
13:22more I'm reflecting on who I really am
13:25the more I want to ditch that and that
13:27and that is a of editing process self
13:31authorship absolutely
13:34and you know I think that the more
13:38mature someone is I'll use that word I
13:41could have used others um the more
13:43mature someone is the more what they do
13:46what they think uh the values they hold
13:48are more to their own work their own
13:51sifting their own editing than it does
13:53to the context that they were born into
13:56um I think you know
13:59it's interesting if if you look at the
14:00Arc of a life right a a very small child
14:03is often remarkably authentic which is
14:06why we adults in small doses at least
14:09have such a great time with little ones
14:11because they they come out with stuff
14:12and you think oh my God I can't believe
14:14they've just said that thing you know
14:15they've just said that Granny's nose is
14:17too big or that this restaurant's boring
14:20or this very expensive thing is a load
14:22of rubbish you know Etc they'll come out
14:24with stuff that is non-normative and
14:26that's very interesting because as an
14:29adult you recognize a kind of you know
14:32you recognize your own spontaneity
14:34that's been lost normally so it's kind
14:36of Bittersweet you think o you know you
14:39don't want exactly the child's version
14:40of it as that would lead you into
14:42trouble but you want an adult version
14:43and it's very hard to get and and and
14:45probably the high Watermark of the
14:46opposite is when you're 14 and a half
14:49and you're at school and your most
14:51fervent wish is to be like everybody
14:52else you you want your parents to be
14:54like everybody else you want your name
14:55to be like everybody else you want your
14:56appearance Your Hair Etc you cannot bear
14:59difference and then slowly slowly you
15:02you individuate you know um and and
15:05that's a very
15:07exciting Journey
15:10seeing I don't think anyone everyone
15:13anyone individuates in all areas so I
15:16think the first choice is what are the
15:17areas that matter a lot to you um I'm
15:20interested in individuation but when it
15:22comes to clothes you might have noticed
15:24um I kind of you know it's a really
15:26interesting area but I just just that
15:29one for another time you know I'm just
15:30not engaging with that um similarly food
15:35fascinating area you know very
15:37interesting yeah not quite on my radar
15:39yet but you know other areas what I'm
15:42reading very you know opinionated very
15:45individual so I don't think all of us
15:47can do it in all areas but we choose and
15:50that's also part of what makes someone
15:52an
15:53individual I love the idea of uh
15:55children being unencumbered by sort of
15:59expectation in that way and uh yeah
16:01trying to find the balance between what
16:04would the mature childlike version of
16:06ourselves do or say in this moment where
16:09we found ourselves
16:10too swayed by the opinions of others by
16:14Expectations by societal Norms Etc do
16:16you remember that story of Picasso who
16:18was going around an art school like
16:20little kids were doing art and some kid
16:22was s scrolling you know mummy whatever
16:24and and this kid was seven and he
16:28Picasso said famously when I was this
16:31when I was his age I was painting like
16:33Raphael you know one of the great
16:34Renaissance artist and it was sort of
16:36true I mean young Picasso um and then he
16:39went and it's taken me all my life to
16:41remember how to paint like this unreal
16:44um now he didn't you know an adult
16:48painting like a child is not a child
16:51painting like a child it's something
16:52different you know which is why when
16:53people go oh a child could have done
16:55that well when a child does it it's one
16:57thing and when an adult does it it's
16:59another thing and I think it's quite
17:00different and I think that's why you
17:03know when you look at Picasso and there
17:03are lots of artists and lots of figures
17:06you could sort draw that analogy with
17:07but you know when you're looking a a
17:09painting that Picasso did when he was 90
17:10what 90 you know at the end of his life
17:13and it it's got elements of stuff that a
17:16child might do but it's gone through you
17:18know that this guy has been doing so
17:20much other stuff so he's got deeper
17:22reasons did you ever read his dark
17:24materials by Philip pman no okay uh
17:29of children's books sensibly I guess
17:31this was my favorite series when I was a
17:32kid uh and in it the protagonist Lyra um
17:37finds this truth teller uh it's called
17:40an leomer and for some reason uh this
17:44particular device it takes an entire
17:46lifetime of study to be able to read it
17:47and as a child she can do it immediately
17:49so it's this beautiful Arc and it's the
17:51first time I ever thought about it and
17:52pman takes you through unconscious
17:54incompetence to unconscious competence
17:56to conscious incompetence to conscious
17:58competence
17:59and one of the final scenes of the
18:01entire book at the very very end uh she
18:03goes back to the uh n where she was
18:07being raised 5 years ago before the
18:11Story begins and uh she's lost the
18:14ability to read it she hits puberty and
18:15it's kind of this fall it talks about
18:17kind of the awareness that her and her
18:19partner now have and she says I can't
18:21read it anymore and then none turns to
18:22her and she says uh my dear it's going
18:24to take you an entire lifetime but the
18:27depth of knowledge you have will be
18:28greater than never was before and it's
18:30that Arc unconscious incompetence
18:32unconscious competence conscious
18:33incompetence conscious competence and
18:35that finishing side something that's
18:38been earned you found your way there
18:41through effort agency self-authorship is
18:44um yeah yeah it's it's it's special yeah
18:47and I think you know it's it's
18:48interesting isn't it
18:51when when people who read a lot thought
18:54a lot Etc come out with stuff and it
18:56sounds very very simple
18:59and I think our society gets a bit
19:00puzzled by that
19:02because the the sort of obvious respect
19:06goes to people that speak in a very
19:08dense way and you can't quite understand
19:10what they mean so you know philosophy
19:12discipline I started out in you know the
19:14heroes there or like Vicken Stein or um
19:17Hegel K Etc it's very very hard not
19:20superbly accessible to make Headway and
19:23then you know you turn to the east you
19:25look at Eastern philosophy um you you
19:28look at the Poetry of someone like baso
19:30in um Japan medieval
19:33Japan it's so simple it's you know it's
19:36four words on a piece of paper and um
19:40very easy to go mumbo jumbo or or or or
19:43Child's Play or
19:45whatever and to be kind of mature enough
19:49to go okay I'm going to bear with the
19:51anxiety that this is very simple
19:55sounding simple sounding um
19:59in the East the idea is that um poetry
20:03for example can sound very very simple
20:06the point is that it's an interaction
20:08between the reader and the work so not
20:12everything is in the poem or the saying
20:15you bring yourself to it and therefore
20:18the ultimate impact of that work is a
20:20collaboration between you and the work
20:22fascinating so the Western of you might
20:24be go there's not that much in there uh
20:27and it's the artist's fault job um
20:29whereas in East views well it's a
20:32collaboration so if you're not seeing
20:34anything it's because you're not
20:35bringing enough of yourself so very
20:38interesting to get you know lots of the
20:40Arts I me think of that Eno you know in
20:42in in in uh you know just a circle this
20:46is the whole of Life whole of life it's
20:48just you know you're just doing a circle
20:49with your your brush and um amazing
20:53amazing the the courage to say okay
20:56we're going to go with this we're gonna
20:58you know the whole of existence is this
21:00circle and if you meditate profoundly
21:04enough on this you will see the world
21:06not just in a grain of sand but in a
21:08circle Etc and we really meet a fault
21:12line here in the western understanding
21:14of depth and profundity where this takes
21:17a bit of time for the Western mind to
21:19kind of get grips of that we're like
21:20come on is this a joke and they you know
21:22they just pedaling us something yeah
21:24probably not why do you think we
21:27struggle to connect with our emotions
21:30fully um come on let's be honest here
21:34with the audience and you know we know
21:35what emotions are like they're not just
21:37lovely cuddly things they're absolutely
21:38terrifying a lot of the time um think of
21:41what it takes think about love right
21:45so
21:46people we think that people spend their
21:49lives looking for love
21:51and half true that's a half truth is
21:55spend a good deal of time running away
21:57from love as well in all sorts of forms
22:00we are as assiduous in our Escape From
22:02Love as we are in our Pursuit perhaps
22:05more so why because it's terrifying it's
22:09especially terrifying if you come from a
22:13childhood an A young world where there
22:17was some kind of disruption in your
22:19attachments in your you know in your
22:22experience of Love um the next time you
22:24then meet love as an adult half of you
22:27is just wanting to run away away and I
22:29think people don't still not fully
22:32appreciate enough the the strength with
22:36which we are going to resist love if our
22:40earliest experience of it was in any way
22:42in any way difficult um and this
22:46explains a great deal of the misery of
22:49the
22:52world it's very interesting to think
22:54about how much we try and push away the
22:56thing that we're also wanting like how
22:58we are implicit in creating the scenario
23:00that was so terrified of having happened
23:03been thinking a lot about um second
23:04order emotions third order emotions so
23:07um you have a thing that happens you
23:09feel agitated and then you begin to tell
23:12yourself a story and you become stressed
23:14at your agitation and then you become
23:15resentful at your stress about your
23:16agitation and then you become anxious
23:18about and I that additional layering uh
23:23this you know kernel that we began with
23:26with regards to the emotion sort of
23:27explodes out and before you know it
23:29you're feeling an emotion that's not
23:31only the thing that started but it's an
23:33entire Universal way yeah and this is
23:35now the problem not this yeah that's
23:38right and and I'm not sure if I
23:40understand you fully but is it is it
23:42really the case that you are not
23:44accepting the the Primary Emotion you
23:47know so let's say uh you go somewhere it
23:50should be nice you're disappointed you
23:52can't be disappointed it's meant to be
23:54nice you you can't accept that
23:56disappointment and then you're angry
23:58with your yourself for feeling
23:59disappointed um and then you know and
24:01and on it whereas if one could just go
24:03okay maybe it's it's all right to be
24:05disappointed I mean it's not it's not
24:06brilliant but but there it is or I'm
24:09feeling sad okay well that's not
24:11wouldn't be what I wanted but let me not
24:13be sad that I'm sad or angry that I'm
24:15sad I think this is why we have certain
24:17signature emotions that feel like home
24:19base yeah there's ones that we're
24:20intimately familiar with and there's
24:22ones that scare us a lot more yeah and
24:25uh a unsat satisfactory but familiar
24:30emotion is often more safe to us than a
24:34slightly novel more exotic but uh
24:38scarier one and and also I think happier
24:41one I mean you know talking just a
24:43minute ago people escaping love people
24:45also Escape happiness I mean the way I
24:48think about it is that very often we're
24:49in a situation of it's like being a
24:51prisoner you've been in kept in jail for
24:52a very long time your diet's been
24:54restricted it's not been much fun then
24:56the gate opens and you're allowed to
24:58walk out um it should be a great day
25:00fantastic you're free nah you know we
25:03know what happens uh let's say you've
25:05been on calor restricted diet suddenly
25:07someone says you know here's a buffet
25:08you can eat anything you like you don't
25:10want to eat it you can't you can't
25:11digest it you can't process it it's too
25:13much so you know something similar goes
25:17on in our attitudes to to happiness
25:20often I mean it's useful to say to
25:21yourself ask
25:23yourself in the circumstan in which I
25:25grew up what did it mean to be happy and
25:28for some of us it meant upsetting a
25:30parent it meant challenging the dominant
25:33mood in a household it meant taking away
25:36attention from somebody else it meant it
25:38meant danger um and that's odd because
25:40we think why would it be dangerous to be
25:43happy well but there are all sorts of
25:46risks associated with it and so in our
25:48deep Minds sometimes in adulthood um we
25:52simply cannot um accept the
25:55circumstances of our lives and and
25:57therefore go back spoiling them um so
25:59that they so that we put them more you
26:02know there's a wonderful paper called
26:04something like a criminal psych but
26:06criminal in search of an offense um a
26:09sense that you've done something
26:11wrong if you carry that from your past
26:14and you think how am I going to get rid
26:15of that feeling oh I know I'll do
26:17something wrong and then and then I
26:19won't feel that feeling anymore some you
26:21know it's a bit like that it's like
26:23saying um I'm feeling happy but I
26:25shouldn't be happy what should I do oh
26:27yes I'll make myself unhappy or you know
26:29I'm feeling love someone's offering me
26:30love that's not normal I don't I don't
26:32recognize that feeling oh what should I
26:34do oh I'll drive them away yeah I'll um
26:36I I'll I'll go and be rude to them or go
26:38and have an affair with somebody else or
26:39whatever it is something to spoil
26:41something that's nice so the impulse to
26:43spoil is really deep happiness and love
26:47are hard to bear I suppose
26:50if reality is not delivering our model
26:54of the world our expectation of the
26:56world our prediction of the world we
26:57have discordance between the two and
26:59there are two things that we can try and
27:01do we can try and bring our model of the
27:02world up to reality or we can try and
27:04bring reality back down to our
27:05expectation exactly beautifully put is
27:08there a danger of
27:11intellectualizing challenges of emotion
27:13for smart people people that like to
27:16read and consume YouTube channels like
27:18yours or podcasts like mine and like to
27:22investigate ourselves we want to
27:23understand ourselves in the world around
27:24us and maybe we've even got the theory
27:27from evolutionary psychology that
27:29explains why this is adaptive and and
27:31and we ancestrally we are made up of
27:33blah blah blah
27:34blah
27:36how how much is that a prophylactic
27:39against us actually having to feel
27:41things and how can we better break
27:43through this intellectualizing of
27:44emotions and rationalizing of them
27:47away let's start with compassion you
27:50know we are the way we are you know for
27:53poignant reasons not you know we didn't
27:54get to be that way you know think of the
27:56think of the bookish chart
27:58you know think of the child who's
27:59reading a lot
28:02um often it's cuz life's life RS quite
28:04difficult now it's great to read good to
28:06read Etc but if you spend all your time
28:09in books um it's often a sign things are
28:12things are challenging and so often the
28:14people who excel at intellectual
28:17Pursuits Etc are in flight from an
28:21overwhelming situation
28:25um I'd wish them well um in that in time
28:29the overwhelming situation could get a
28:31little less intense and they could get a
28:33little more of reality into their
28:36intellectual world I mean I'm describing
28:37myself perhaps you you know you you want
28:40to try and see reality for what it is
28:42and if you're warding it off with
28:44intellectual structures um you know
28:48let's let's say thank you to those
28:49structures I think I think it's really
28:50important whenever whenever you look at
28:53people doing stuff that seems a bit
28:55suboptimal or a bit strange they're
28:56reading too much they're jogging too
28:58much they're trying to make too much
28:59money whatever um that they're feeling
29:01too much they're feeling too little all
29:03all of these departures from so-called
29:05Health normality Etc always ask yourself
29:07why are they doing it and it's normally
29:09a defense it is a defense against a
29:12situation that was very difficult at
29:14some point they learned that defense and
29:16even though it would be optimal now to
29:19let go of that defensive structure
29:21they're still clinging on to it because
29:23that's what feels safe it feels safe to
29:26make jokes all the time it feels safe to
29:28be very serious all the time it makes it
29:31feels safe to be depressed it feels safe
29:33to give up um it feels safe to try and
29:35win at all costs including your own
29:37health ET all all these are defensive
29:41structures that once kept us safe that I
29:44think in order to evolve we almost want
29:45to say thank you thank you to your
29:47younger self for working this out for
29:49finding a way of coping with reality but
29:51but could we learn to cope in a slightly
29:53different
29:54way so
29:56great I'm interested just taking that
29:58one step further in the difference
30:00between knowing ourselves intellectually
30:02and knowing ourselves
30:03emotionally uh I
30:05think even I I've in my less equanimous
30:09moments uh when I do journaling uh I
30:12find
30:13myself writing more of an essay than a
30:16personal inquiry and uh yeah the
30:18difference between knowing ourselves
30:20intellectually and knowing ourselves
30:21emotionally again for the cerebral
30:24minded praying at the altar of cognitive
30:27horsepower people yeah um yeah it's a
30:30coping mechanism it's a a way to
30:32distance yourself from this yes and I
30:34think I think our minds it's it's it is
30:36much easier to um have the the headline
30:42than the meat of the topic and very
30:46often we we reach a sort of uh an
30:49uncomfortable state of half knowing
30:53ourselves and we think oh i' I've
30:55covered it I know in my childhood there
30:56was this and you know then there was
30:58this then there was that and you You'
30:59got to go to a headline you know tension
31:02with my dad or you know tricky with my
31:03mom or whatever it is and we think oh
31:05I've got that I've got that I know it
31:07now let's go back to the the Eastern you
31:11know Enzo Circle right and the East says
31:15meditate for hours repeatedly on the
31:18thing that looks obvious the thing that
31:20you know so they're saying the whole of
31:23life is that Circle so look at that
31:25Circle and keep coming back to it and
31:27the more more you look at it the more
31:28you will see in it now the
31:30Western approach is bit bit in it's too
31:33impatient it'll say all right yeah it
31:36was tense with my dad I know that and go
31:39hang on hang on hang on that's an Enzo
31:40of its own I it was tense with my Dad we
31:43you could meditate around that for you
31:46know an hour a day or an hour a week or
31:48whatever is you can keep coming back to
31:49that it's never there are so many things
31:52still to be discovered there it's not
31:54dead and so I think I'd almost want to
31:56excite you know those who are listening
31:58to think okay I think I know something
32:01do I really know it might I go back
32:03there um are our real experiences tend
32:08to be so much richer than our work a day
32:11sense of them um think about think about
32:14a holiday right say have you ever been
32:16to Greece oh yeah I went to Greece um oh
32:19right have you been to Santorini yeah
32:20I've been to sanini okay so so we think
32:21we covered that one person's spe to
32:24Center really hang on first of all our
32:26minds are am amazing mechanisms of
32:30capture you know we got cameras around
32:32sound equipment Etc nothing beats the
32:34human mind for capturing absolutely
32:36everything um often the time to explore
32:39this is is sort of Twilight um your mind
32:42is you're going to sleep or waking up if
32:45you say to yourself yeah centori what
32:47was that like what was it what was it
32:50really like and you realize oh my God I
32:51remember there was a tiled hallway that
32:54led to a blue door and I actually
32:56remember there was a flower in a little
32:58vase and there was a light coming in
32:59from I think it must have been from the
33:00left and actually if I looked to the
33:02right there was a little window and it's
33:04all there it's all in your mind just
33:06waiting to be asked waiting this is the
33:10famous can I talk about PR what muscle
33:13PR great French novelist 19th early 20th
33:16century Etc came up with this fam idea
33:18of the prian moment some of you know it
33:20some of you won't it's basically a
33:22moment when you take something sensory
33:25like a sip of water or a smell
33:28imagine the smell of concrete after rain
33:31or the smell of snow just after a
33:33snowfall Etc and suddenly you you you
33:36get that sensory experience and a world
33:40opens up you think oh my God I'm 5 years
33:42old again and I've just gone outside of
33:44the garden of the yard where I grew up
33:47and there was a brick wall and there was
33:49that exact smell and I'm there again and
33:52suddenly your world becomes so much
33:54richer and these are just little moments
33:57of of of expansion around a topic like
34:01after a snowfall or first a of spring or
34:03Santorini or whatever it is so in other
34:06words many of the things that are in our
34:08minds in intellectually compressed forms
34:11can be
34:13expanded with the addition of I mean you
34:16know the sort of fancy trendy modern
34:18word is meditation but but you know some
34:20people don't get on with the word
34:21meditation let's just say by giving it
34:23some time by allowing an experience to
34:26assume its proper shape
34:28and we we do Rush past our experiences
34:30things are very compressed and that's
34:33why at the end of an average day my
34:36goodness how much we've seen how much
34:38we've felt how many little things cross
34:41Consciousness if we were able to give
34:43some of that space how much lighter we
34:45would start to feel but we we live so
34:48much and we experience so little we see
34:51so much and we notice so
34:54little what would you say to the
34:57obsessive person who wants to learn to
34:59let go a little more a lot of what I
35:02see in the circles that I move in is a
35:04need for control a desire to limit down
35:08the potential paths that the future
35:10could go down to sort of constrain how
35:12unpredictable reality could be and I
35:16think the optimization life hacking
35:18productivity world is very much a part
35:21of this plus a denial of death if I can
35:22fit more life into less time then maybe
35:24kind of like living longer um but yeah
35:27that that need to control that obsessive
35:30sort
35:31of
35:33uh requirement to be able to Wrangle
35:36reality As You Wish can people learn to
35:39take their hands off the wheel a little
35:40bit more easily well I think I mean I
35:44think um the simple answer is that these
35:48people are running away from something
35:50um which is painful and difficult Etc
35:53and they're not allowing themselves to
35:55think about it they're not even allowing
35:57it inside ious so think of the think of
35:59mania you know but when we say so and so
36:02is in a manic mood or so and so is doing
36:04something manically what we really mean
36:07is that they're doing something in order
36:09not to do something else normally not
36:12think about something or feel something
36:15and we all end up in certain points in
36:17manic states where you know we're we're
36:20scrubbing the kitchen just a little bit
36:21too assiduously or we're jogging a bit
36:23too hard or we're scrolling our phones a
36:26bit too much and
36:28really the question to ask ourselves at
36:29that time is a very simple one which is
36:32if you weren't able to do what you're
36:34doing now what might you need to think
36:37about or to feel and the answer is there
36:39waiting for you if you can if you can
36:41bear is could be a very very awkward
36:43question to ask yourself in other words
36:44you know if you weren't able to clean
36:47the kitchen manically or go jogging Etc
36:50but you just sit with something what
36:52what do you need to sit with you know
36:54the old saying you don't just sit there
36:55do something don't just sit there and
36:57think do something well imagine you
36:59don't just do something sit there and
37:01think you reverse it you reverse it and
37:03what is it that you need to think about
37:06yeah yeah uh the coping mechanisms that
37:09we have and the inventive ways that we
37:13come up with
37:15alchemizing and and justifying
37:17well a lot of the time uh people will
37:20say better to be addicted to the gym
37:22than be addicted to drugs I don't think
37:24that's a particularly controversial stat
37:26if that's if that's the binary Choice
37:27yes of course um but then I realized
37:30recently but maybe over the last year so
37:32I spent a lot of time meditating toward
37:34the end of my 20s and um trying to turn
37:38myself out of the adult infant into
37:40maybe an adult
37:41Adolescent and
37:43um most people would look at meditation
37:46you know sort of an emotion arises
37:47inside of you you notice it you release
37:49and allow like that's you know a common
37:51sort of tempo that you have brilliant
37:53you know you you you are no longer as at
37:56the mercy of this particular emotion uh
37:59but it was only when I started doing
38:01therapy uh as first ever suggested by
38:04Charlotte one of your ex staff from the
38:07school of Life uh it was only after
38:11doing quite a lot of that that I
38:12realized that even meditation or maybe
38:15breath work or going to the gym or
38:16whatever it might be is still another
38:19way of not having to actually
38:21investigate where that emotion has come
38:23from and meditation particularly or or
38:25something more like breath work perhaps
38:28is a not nefarious but it's a a very
38:32it's it's so close it's internal it
38:34feels sort of self- investigative uh
38:36it's
38:37mindful this is brilliant you go yeah
38:39but that is going to continue to come up
38:41and you now have a coping strategy it's
38:43not drugs it's not even as obvious as
38:45you running 50 miles a week but there is
38:48another strategy which is not forcing
38:51you to turn the eye back down to where's
38:54this coming from and why does it keep on
38:56arising and if you have this very good
38:58strategy to release these things as they
39:00move through you uh that will that cycle
39:03will continue and I don't think I think
39:05that uh those emotions are worthy of
39:07Investigation so so Chris how do you
39:09define therapy or how do you how do you
39:11define what therapy might might bring
39:13you that's bit different from meditation
39:16in this I mean my my I did uh twice a
39:19week Psychotherapy for the last year or
39:21so um
39:23and it was I've said this before it I
39:28learned more about myself in a year of
39:30twice weekly Psychotherapy than I did in
39:331500 sessions of meditation and if you
39:36could characterize what what was
39:38different how therapy operates you have
39:41another party investigating your
39:44statements the language that you use I
39:46used the analogy that it felt like um
39:49living in a house your entire life and
39:51then one day just inviting somebody else
39:53in yeah and they're walking around and
39:55they start pointing out doors in a house
39:58that you know intimately well every inch
40:01and they start pointing out doors that
40:02you never even knew existed and you go
40:04what's that over you go and you open the
40:07door and you realize that the back of
40:08the kitchen actually leads into I always
40:10wondered how those two things came
40:11together and it's this sort of odd it's
40:13very humbling I found it very humbling
40:15experience to see somebody else who
40:17knows me for 100 hours yeah Point yeah
40:21and say what about yeah what about that
40:24that but I think I think one has to be
40:25really I mean that's a beautiful way of
40:26putting it um um why should be totally
40:28relaxed about that and just say in the
40:30same way that you you can't see the back
40:31of your head it's just one of those
40:32things um it's not it's not you know we
40:35just we can't see some very obvious
40:38things I mean a therapist a trained
40:40therapist can see within minutes things
40:42that have eluded someone for their whole
40:45life um very humbling very humbling but
40:48but but you know someone can do it for
40:49the therapist as well it's it everybody
40:51is like this we're just that's how we're
40:53wired and best thing to do is laugh it's
40:56it's funny I mean it's how inept we are
40:58um but as everybody's in on the joke um
41:01we can we can laugh together you said uh
41:05talking about the emotion thing just
41:06from before and I think that this sort
41:07of comes into when
41:08you're regulating opening up with
41:12someone whether it be a therapist friend
41:13a partner or whatever the sort of Need
41:15for uh comfort and reassuring kindness
41:17look you can say these things yeah I I'm
41:21not running away I don't find you
41:22despicable it's actually kind of
41:24interesting maybe it's Charming for you
41:26to do this
41:27I mean this is so you know this is
41:29really very much at the core of what we
41:31could understand by the word love you
41:33know if a think of it in childhood a
41:36loving parent right the the the child a
41:39young child gets an experience that who
41:41they really are is acceptable to someone
41:44else so you know child little child will
41:47go I hate the teacher and the parent you
41:50know good parent is able to bear that
41:52even though it's not perfect the parent
41:54is able to go oh okay what Wonder wonder
41:57why what what's you know why why they
41:59upset you sounds like they might have
42:00upset you rather than someone would go
42:03don't be so silly the teacher the
42:05teacher and they work very hard to give
42:07you an education so don't complain wow
42:09that's you know that's a tough comment
42:12your emotion is not valid your emotions
42:13not bad I mean you know parents do their
42:16best but goodness me stuff happens in in
42:19that Crucible of childhood that is a bit
42:21suboptimal um but you know love come
42:23back to love what love is is is
42:25accepting you know um I don't want to
42:26see granny okay you don't want to see
42:28Granny all right or or I really love you
42:30or I really hate my sibling or I really
42:32like the dog or I want to live forever
42:34or you know all the stuff that little
42:37children come up with or I'm terrified
42:38of daddy actually I don't like Daddy oh
42:40okay well let's think about that you
42:41what does that mean so being able to
42:43accept and then in later life again
42:46having someone it could be a therapist
42:47it could be a friend um who's able to
42:51Bear the really difficult bits of our
42:53psyches which we all have I mean we're
42:56all so much weirder than we're supposed
42:58to be so much sadder so much more
43:00worried Etc and to be able to have
43:04someone you know it might only be one
43:06person or two if we're really lucky and
43:08three if we're you know God's Gift um
43:12who can bear and who we've allowed into
43:15that sort of private um sanctum that was
43:18one of the realizations that Charlotte
43:21first taught me and then I learned
43:23through my therapy over the last year
43:26one of the the very unique uh parts of a
43:29therapeutic relationship is that you're
43:30allowed to be as small or boring or
43:32Petty as you want and those are areas
43:34that with a friend or a partner it's
43:36really difficult to do yeah because
43:39you're managing Optics in some way
43:42you're thinking well it's my job to kind
43:43of entertain this person even if they're
43:45there to to sort of sit and listen with
43:47me like not that not the fact that the
43:50way that the lady in the canteen ladled
43:53my beans today seemed a little bit
43:55disparaging or dismissive or something
43:57and like oh my God how shameful for me
43:59to think that that's something that
44:00should play on my mind so small I you
44:03know the story I tell the second third
44:04fourth order emotions
44:06coming and um that is one of the very
44:10few it's that and your mom are kind of
44:13you know not even your M because most as
44:15you say most relationship it's all
44:16relationships you have to manage and you
44:18have to curtail the fear of being
44:20abandoned you know if you if you are too
44:22honest this again the the canteen lady
44:24and the beans again this is the third
44:26time in two months think of how this
44:28plays out in couples right so people
44:29come together um because they're fed up
44:31with being lonely right you know you you
44:33it's lonely so you try and find a
44:35special person and we we dignify this
44:37concept by saying I'm in a relationship
44:39you know I'm I'm a special friend I'm
44:41getting married Etc we got these words
44:43but really what this means is I'm no
44:44longer so alone in a terrifying world so
44:47you have a special person and in the
44:49early days of love it's thrilling that
44:51you can say stuff that you wouldn't say
44:54to anyone else and it's so delightful
44:56you can say say things like you know I
44:58still long for my teddy bear and they go
45:00I long for them too and then you know
45:02hug to the teddy bear and it's so
45:03amazing because you know you're you're
45:04the CEO and you know you're an important
45:06lawyer doctor banker and actually you're
45:08clutching your teddy bear and it's it's
45:09amazing or you can go I really want to
45:11put you know mayonnaise on the pizza and
45:14that's great and then you know you you
45:15push it further and and and then you go
45:18I'm G to go to a museum but I don't like
45:19any of the art I don't like it either or
45:21I've never read that book but I always
45:22pretended I did and it's just thrilling
45:24and you know and then and then sex gets
45:25invited into you go I I like this
45:27strange sounding thing and they go I
45:29like it too I like this other thing Etc
45:31and you you're building a wonderful
45:33universe but um you know this is the the
45:37challenging thing about love because you
45:39know let's imagine you're with this
45:40person and you shared all this stuff Etc
45:42and then you go to a a cafe say and you
45:45you
45:45say weight is hot and then you look at
45:48their face and they're like look really
45:50quite heartbroken that you've just
45:52commented on the you know visual appeal
45:54of waiting staff and they they feel hurt
45:57and they feel jealous and they feel
45:58upset and suddenly you think oh my
46:00goodness there's a choice here between
46:03you know kindness and
46:06honesty and I think that's what we're
46:09circling around which is can you be you
46:12know what what moment does honesty run
46:14up against the limits of kindness or the
46:16the you know the requirements of
46:18kindness I think what you're saying
46:19about therapy is you don't have to be
46:21kind to the therapist because it's
46:2350-minute session you're giving them
46:25money and people go oh it's a boore that
46:27you're giving the money well you know
46:29Freud thought long and hard about this
46:31about the role of money in therapy and
46:33his view was it's an agent of Liberation
46:36it's a good thing you can pay the
46:38therapist and that's why you want people
46:40to bring cash and leave the cash on the
46:42table uh at the end of every session now
46:45nowadays you might you know put your
46:46card on but but the point is um it's
46:50it's a way of saying um I can be fully
46:54myself because I have earned this
46:57person's attention some people go but
46:58they don't really love you Etc and you
47:00go maybe they don't really love you but
47:03that's a Liberation correct there's no
47:05obligation no obligation obligation just
47:08lingering on that uh balance between
47:12transparency emotional openness and um
47:15you said kindness but I think that
47:17there's other reasons to edit too is
47:19there a place for editing yourself in a
47:21relationship should we not be open
47:24honestly communicating all the time this
47:25is how I feel you want to see the inner
47:27texture of my mind don't you I mean
47:30you're putting your finger on on a big
47:31Paradox I I think the idea that you
47:32should be yourself in a relationship is
47:35one of the most disastrous ideas um
47:38because the untrammeled self uh is a
47:41frightening Spectre um Best Kept For You
47:44know you and your therapist you in the
47:46mirror you know um if you if you have to
47:49confront your partner with your stream
47:53of Consciousness at all times um you
47:57can't do this you know parents don't do
47:59this with their children obviously our
48:00partners are not children but it's
48:03telling us something about love in a
48:04loving relationship at points you edit
48:07yourself you know it's 11: at night I'm
48:09not going to bring that issue up they're
48:11very tired I'm not going to bring that
48:12up um I'm feeling stressed and raw I'm
48:16not going to start a subject that I
48:17won't know how to handle Etc no all of
48:19us fail at points all of us fail in this
48:22area but as I think as an ideal it's
48:25it's a good ideal I mean I could stick
48:27up for a word which sounds very odd in
48:29the context of Love politeness you know
48:31it's it's a good idea to try and be
48:32polite I'm like oh that's fake that's
48:34fake well it's also kind you know to
48:39edit yourself to uh put a veneer of
48:42civilization on certain things yeah why
48:44not there's a a very slippery slope with
48:47that though a lot of people especially
48:51if they have started doing therapy some
48:52self- inquiry some emotional work than
48:54God like I I I should push the uh amount
48:58that I'm emotionally open I should
49:00improve my transparency for so long i'
49:02played a role I was terrified of making
49:04my my needs known my desires putting
49:07myself first realizing I even have needs
49:09and putting those out there and now
49:12there's these odd bits of territory that
49:14I shouldn't stray into yeah what happens
49:16if I Stray over there and the tendency
49:19for you to overcorrect and go in the
49:21other direction uh Neil Strauss says uh
49:25unspoken expectations are premeditated
49:27resentments right and you know we have
49:31this yeah balance between the two yeah
49:34you're absolutely right there are some
49:35people who need to work on being more
49:38transparent more communicative and
49:40others who need to be less technical
49:42where I think for it is reactive you
49:44know they're not you shouldn't come out
49:46with whatever it is that you that you're
49:47feeling at all times in its full force
49:50it just depends I mean you know that
49:52classic anxious avoidant attachment
49:54pattern we might say that on the whole
49:56avoidant people need to work on their
49:58communication skills you know and they
50:00need to to be more transparent and
50:02avoidant and anxious people need on the
50:04whole to contain certain feelings you
50:07know and it's just yeah horses for
50:09courses on this one what would be your
50:11advice to uh people in the classic
50:14anxious avoidant relationship the two
50:17polarities coming
50:19together understand understand
50:21understand where each one's coming from
50:23I mean why is someone in avoidant
50:24they're not evil they're not mean
50:26they're not you it it it can be pretty
50:28horrible to be on the receiving end of
50:30certain kinds of pattern of behavior but
50:32let's TR remember why why does this
50:34exist uh someone becomes avoidant when
50:36they've grown up in a calorie emotional
50:37calorie controlled diet uh environment
50:40where they have had to get used to very
50:43little the way they survive is Mom's not
50:46so interested dad's not interested no
50:48caregiver around um lot of
50:50disappointment I'm just going to hunker
50:51down and get used to very little
50:53literally like a like an animal that
50:55gets used to a very very thin diet um
50:59that is what has happened to an avoidant
51:01person um and then when they get to to
51:03love and someone goes I adore you let's
51:05spend every evening together let's you
51:07know um you're you're marvelous um they
51:10feel and but often they don't even
51:12understand that they're feeling it
51:13totally engulfed they feel overwhelmed
51:15they feel their very identity is in
51:17threat of dissolution by by something
51:20that's lovely but it's too much too soon
51:22and what they need is an experience of
51:24Love titrated they need the titration of
51:27Love um but often they don't know how to
51:29ask for it they don't even know often
51:31they they might smile through it and and
51:33go I'm I'm not really feeling this and
51:35then they can't bear they can't bear and
51:36then they run away um or just act become
51:38weird or something you know so so
51:40explanation you know hello I'm somebody
51:43who had to get used to a very you know
51:46calorie controlled diet emotionally um
51:49uh you know I really feel warmly this
51:51relationship is matters a lot to me but
51:53the kindest thing is not to be too kind
51:56to me in an overwhelming way the most
51:58generous thing is not to be too abundant
52:00not because I don't want this but
52:02because I grew up in a situation
52:04deprivation so that's our avoidant
52:06friend anxious friend similar kind of
52:08story of explanation why did people
52:10become so-called anxious normally
52:12because unlike the avoidant person they
52:14have had an experience of love so some
52:17ways the anxious person's had a better
52:18childhood better journey through life in
52:21a way they have experienced love but
52:23they've also experienced loss and the
52:25disruption of that attachment
52:27so someone died someone went away
52:28someone had to go to you know the Army
52:30someone had some something happened to
52:32disrupt the bond it was very intense but
52:34it was
52:35disrupted and um that person needs to
52:38understand that they are you know there
52:39a wonderful sentence from Donald winot
52:41great psychoanalyst who said the
52:44catastrophe you fear will happen has
52:46already happened and the key thing is
52:50it's been forgotten you forgot the
52:51catastrophe and that's why you keep
52:53seeing it in the future whereas actually
52:55it belongs in the past
52:57so what you need to do is understand
52:58this structure and repatriate the
53:01emotion um and put it back where it
53:03belongs so the avoidant person at dinner
53:07you know on an early date needs to go
53:09um you know I really want to believe in
53:12your love um but if you say you love me
53:15I might not be able to believe it very
53:17easily and what I will do is test it and
53:20the person might go oh test oh fine fire
53:22away and the anxious person should go
53:25yeah this test can be quite healthy
53:27quite quite horrible you know it's it's
53:29going to mean that when you
53:30say um I love you I'm going to start to
53:34act up because I want to see if it you
53:37really do so I'm going to be really
53:39difficult around you because not because
53:41I don't want you but because I want to
53:43test whether your affection is really
53:45real and the only way I know how to do
53:46that CU I'm carrying this stuff from
53:48childhood is to act up play up and so
53:53when we're in a nice restaurant and you
53:54tell me that you know things are great
53:56I'm going to say actually the food's not
53:58that nice and I don't really like the
53:59clothes you're wearing and I'm going to
54:01cause a drama why to test whether the
54:04Love is Real very unfortunate so the
54:06more the anxious friends can get on top
54:09of their anxiety the more they can
54:10translate everything I've just said into
54:12something that sounds like it's been
54:15processed and can be understood by
54:16another person then the better it can be
54:18so
54:20um you know anxious and avoidant people
54:22are walking wounded and they need to be
54:24able to explain the nature of their
54:26particular wound so that appropriate
54:28care can be uh set up awareness
54:32awareness which is why you know it's
54:35great for people to go to therapy it's
54:37great for people to explore themselves
54:40um it's not merely fancy it's not really
54:42whatever it's a serious indicator of an
54:46easier life with them I mean if you're
54:49if you're with a partner who's able to
54:51go okay hang on a minute I think I'm
54:53slipping down I I I think I'm confusing
54:55you with my mother at the moment uh or I
54:58think I think an anger that actually
54:59belongs to my father is is weirdly in
55:02the room because that's what happens
55:04when you start to explore your past you
55:05see the intermingling of past and
55:07present all the time um and the more
55:09you're able to get a handle on that and
55:11warn your partner the easier it is I
55:13mean we don't need people to be perfect
55:16we need people to understand how they're
55:18imperfect and warn us of the coming
55:21imperfection or retrospectively
55:23apologize for it in relatively civilized
55:26terms that's what we need how malleable
55:29are our attachment styles are the
55:31foundations of them able to genuinely be
55:34moved or is it a case that the best we
55:36can hope for is to just compensate for
55:38them in adult life um I'm hopeful here
55:43that you know we can definitely make
55:45progress from wherever we start we can
55:47make progress that you know a
55:50temperament where we're inclined to
55:52close ourselves off because we
55:54constantly think that no one will be
55:55able to understand us once we start to
55:58think okay this is what I do I feel very
56:01easily misunderstood and I go and
56:03essentially sulk once you notice that
56:05that's a big step you know and we're so
56:09good at marking Milestones it's
56:10somebody's birthday let's throw a party
56:12it's you know somebody's just run a
56:14marathon Let's uh give them a medal Etc
56:17we we need different kinds of medals you
56:18know the medal for the avoidant person
56:20who understood that they sulk rather
56:22than explain dong let's put them on
56:24television let's give a game show in
56:26there honor these are major Milestones
56:28let's give a party let's give a party to
56:30the person who's understood that that's
56:32going on to Mark there's much more
56:33significant than their birthday you know
56:35what I mean which might not be tracking
56:36anything significant that's a
56:38significant Milestone so we we
56:42should you know give more
56:45public within our circles public
56:48recognition of moments of emotional
56:50maturation and how much is that you know
56:53I
56:54think lots of people
56:56uh Envy the other side if only I could
56:59have a little bit of a little bit more
57:01of that anxiousness if only I could
57:02actually lean in a little bit more if I
57:04could feel a little bit more easily if I
57:06could communicate or God if I could just
57:08be a little bit more distant if I didn't
57:10need the reassurance in this way if I
57:12didn't have this requirement to feel
57:14safe in order to be able to feel
57:15comfortable I wasn't externalizing my
57:19own sense of selfworth onto somebody
57:21else quite in this sort of a way uh yeah
57:25I think it's a question you attachment
57:27styles are kind of the the hot new girl
57:29in school psychological emotional work
57:31at the moment very trendy um it's been
57:34around a while in a good way and it's
57:37based on very solid science you know
57:39it's we've been going at this for 50
57:41years I looked at some really
57:42interesting stuff recently that um
57:44attachment Styles like everything
57:45psychologically uh genetically
57:47predisposed not necessarily
57:48predetermined but predisposed uh and
57:51given that you are raised in the
57:52environment which is probably the uh
57:55breeding ground for that very
57:58predisposition it gets reinforced yeah
58:01so not only have you got the raw
58:02materials to make this thing happen but
58:04unless your parents have somehow managed
58:06to sort of pivot in the opposite
58:07direction you then get this additional
58:09boost which is oh well the environment
58:13uh nature came along and nurture then
58:15enhanced it yeah uh yeah it's um it's
58:19interesting it's going to be interesting
58:20I think over the next few years to see
58:22what sort of interventions we have to be
58:23able to help people to
58:26ameliorate yes and I think um not not
58:30trying to sound trendy and you know
58:32think but I think AI is going to have a
58:34real impact on us uh in the sense that
58:38so often what happens is we lose sight
58:42in the moment of things we know but are
58:45no longer in our minds right and so
58:48people will have you know let's say a
58:49couple have a rather sort Torrid time
58:51difficult time and then each one goes to
58:52therapy in in the week and then they all
58:53come back and they're kind of they're
58:55starting to you know they're back on
58:56track they can they can see things more
58:58clearly again or they spent some time
58:59alone they've journaled Etc
59:02um I can imagine a world where we allow
59:05technology to nudge Us in the same way
59:07that you know we've learned that
59:08technology can nudge us awake nudge us
59:09asleep nudge us to eat this nud you know
59:12um you know Imagine A little nudge for
59:14an avoidant A little nudge for an
59:17anxious person Etc a little reminder
59:19hang on hang on hang on what you know
59:22you're slipping you're sliding um and
59:25you knows talk about the window of
59:27Tolerance where it's a window in which
59:29you're you're in charge emotionally or
59:31you're kind of in control and you slip
59:33out of the window of Tolerance into
59:35something you know you you lose command
59:37of of yourself and and you can imagine a
59:40little AI helper just nudging you to
59:43stay within the window yeah your
59:45attachment strap has piped up and said
59:48notice you're a little bit stressed at
59:49the moment this might be because of X Y
59:52and Z yes and you know it sounds
59:53Supernatural and strange and you know a
59:54lot of people would say things like oh
59:55it's it's not you know I don't want to
59:57give my data blah blah okay I grant all
59:59of that and you know it could be spooky
1:00:01Etc it's no different from think of the
1:00:04people who got their first were
1:00:05religions religions understood that if
1:00:07you want to keep people on track you've
1:00:08got to get them repeating stuff it's not
1:00:10enough to tell someone something once
1:00:12you need rituals systems of
1:00:15memorializing the important things
1:00:17that's why you know if you're in Islam
1:00:19um if you're Muslim you know you'll be
1:00:21praying a num multiple times a day
1:00:23you'll be saying the same words
1:00:27because those words have as it were been
1:00:28forgotten not intellectually but
1:00:30emotionally their full resonance has
1:00:32been forgotten um in Judaism uh you're
1:00:35reading the Torah every Saturday in
1:00:38synagogue you're reading the Torah and
1:00:40you you just go back over it you don't
1:00:41just read it once you keep reading you
1:00:44keep going back to to to to the same
1:00:46important text we're very bad at that in
1:00:48the modern world we think oh well I read
1:00:50this book on attachment it was quite
1:00:51interesting and and now that's it I know
1:00:53it now I know know it now no you don't
1:00:55you need to go back you need to read it
1:00:57all the time that's why you know the
1:00:58idea of nudging is not as strange as it
1:01:01might sound not as futuristic it's a
1:01:02very old idea that you might give you
1:01:04life to one of the most uh shameful or
1:01:09humbling realizations of going down a
1:01:12personal development Journey for a while
1:01:14is that the tool that you're looking for
1:01:17to the problem you're encountering now
1:01:19is not only something that you know it's
1:01:21one of the first things that you ever
1:01:23discovered when you began this journey
1:01:25it's maybe something you wrote about
1:01:26it's maybe something that you practice
1:01:27for a very long time and I often get
1:01:30asked I was doing these Live Events
1:01:32recently and one of the most common
1:01:33questions is um what advice would you
1:01:35give yourself 10 years ago the
1:01:36interesting thing about that question I
1:01:38think is that the answer that you give
1:01:41what you would tell yourself 10 years
1:01:42ago is almost always invariably the
1:01:44answer that you right now need to hear
1:01:45as well because the big problems Remain
1:01:48the big problems because they're so
1:01:50fundamental to who you are if they
1:01:51weren't fundamental to who you are they
1:01:53would probably not be the big problems
1:01:55if you were able to detox that it's it's
1:01:57the anciliary stuff it's the extraneous
1:01:59outsides that you end up tinkering with
1:02:02but the core you know the the middle of
1:02:04the cake is this chocolate is it
1:02:05strawberry uh that's really where it is
1:02:08and um yes to
1:02:11think not only is this challenge that
1:02:14I'm encountering you know to uh break
1:02:17the fourth wall I've used a number of
1:02:19videos from the school of Life over the
1:02:22last decade when I've encountered the
1:02:24same situations like
1:02:26I already I I've not only have I watched
1:02:29this there's been periods where I've
1:02:30learned entire passages from this as a
1:02:33little Mantra that I can reflect on I go
1:02:35I'm going back to the
1:02:37same but that you're right this
1:02:39temptation novel new there is a there is
1:02:41a better answer well we're 5 years hence
1:02:43there must be something that's come out
1:02:45in the last however long and um I guess
1:02:48this is what art and Heritage History uh
1:02:51does that it helps to sort of strip that
1:02:54away yeah what's stood the test of time
1:02:56what's been sufficiently Lindy that it's
1:02:57still with us now yeah you know it's TSL
1:03:00is in the four CeX is you know we return
1:03:02to the place where we started it's the
1:03:04idea of that that's kind of part of
1:03:06every journey is you come back to the
1:03:08place where you started the entire story
1:03:09of The Alchemist by Paulo qua right
1:03:11right exactly and so I notic also when
1:03:14you were speaking just now you had a
1:03:16smile on your lips and and that's not
1:03:18coincidental I think the more you know
1:03:21one Journeys through life um the more
1:03:24there's really only one may Maj solution
1:03:26which is a smile on one's lips at the
1:03:28sheer let's put it bluntly idiocy
1:03:30absurdity absurdity of oneself you at
1:03:33the school of life we we we did a class
1:03:36on confidence and we wrote a little book
1:03:38about confidence great book and thank
1:03:40you
1:03:41and the I remember sitting with my
1:03:45co-author great friend of mine called
1:03:47John Armstrong and I said to John cuz we
1:03:51we started the topic she's like okay
1:03:52what what makes us confident you know
1:03:54and we we'd read a few books each of us
1:03:56are like bestselling books and you know
1:03:58saying things like repeat yourself how
1:03:59great you are repeat to yourself your
1:04:01potential get in touch with you know
1:04:03what's and I said I've read all these
1:04:05books and I'm starting to feel
1:04:06humiliated I feel a bit depressed like I
1:04:09know that I know that it's kind of wise
1:04:11but I don't know and then I remember
1:04:13John saying to me okay what makes you
1:04:17for confident and I said if somebody
1:04:19goes it's okay you can just be a total
1:04:21idiot it's all right you you're a bit of
1:04:23an idiot and it's okay not you're an
1:04:25idiot OT but we're all idiots that makes
1:04:28me
1:04:29feel I'm ready to play I'm ready to have
1:04:32fun I'm ready to take risks removes the
1:04:35seriousness remove well remove the an un
1:04:39an inhuman expectation of what a human
1:04:41life can be pressure and and accept that
1:04:43we're all of us Blockheads who can't
1:04:46really make very much progress and um
1:04:49and you know there's a wonderful
1:04:53painting which we put in the book by
1:04:54brle um this ship at Sea yeah well the
1:04:57Ship of Fools and and anyway forget this
1:05:00exact title but it's showing people
1:05:02doing Mad things silly things one person
1:05:03is eating his foot the other one's
1:05:04walked into a wall the third one's
1:05:06jumping off a cliff and it just shows
1:05:07human Folly in all its exaggeration and
1:05:11and you think yeah that's us that's we
1:05:13humans and that opens up such an Avenue
1:05:15of compassion you just think okay
1:05:17compassion for yourself compassion for
1:05:19the other uh we're all flailing back in
1:05:21the darkness
1:05:23and if we can have a a relax
1:05:25relationship to our foolishness uh and
1:05:28our blindness that's a huge confidence
1:05:31booster yeah I wanted I want to try and
1:05:33Linger on that as well I think um again
1:05:36the sorts of people that listen to the
1:05:37show the sorts of people that that read
1:05:39your work um they'll probably take life
1:05:42seriously they think it's a a thing that
1:05:44you're supposed to apply Earnest
1:05:47pressure to perhaps a kind of sort of
1:05:49dynamic persistence but maybe more
1:05:50persistent than Dynamic and
1:05:53um what's your advice for for people
1:05:57to try and embrace some more playfulness
1:06:00when it comes to life serious serious
1:06:02things I want to be taken seriously I
1:06:04want to do things I want to make an
1:06:05impact in the world I don't want to grip
1:06:07too tightly I know that when I grip too
1:06:09tightly it kind of ruins the entire
1:06:11Point well I think I think the way is
1:06:13not to not to say oh what you need is
1:06:15bit you know lighten up and and tell a
1:06:16few jokes because I think that's not
1:06:18going to that's going to rile people up
1:06:20I think the thing to do is to um push
1:06:22some pessimism their way because it's
1:06:24actually if you think about what a joke
1:06:25is a joke is always basically a bit of
1:06:27pessimism wrapped up in in you know
1:06:29artfully wrapped but it's basically
1:06:31pessimism um one of my favorite sayings
1:06:33by the stoic philosopher senica he goes
1:06:36what need is there to weep over parts of
1:06:38life he says the whole of it calls for
1:06:40tears and everyone who hears that sort
1:06:43of gets a smile on their face and you
1:06:45think the guy wasn't trying to tell a
1:06:46joke he wasn't trying to make it funny
1:06:48he was just trying to be Bleak um and or
1:06:52say it how it is and then it makes a
1:06:54smile out of relief and the relief is
1:06:58it's not just me um Arthur schopen how
1:07:01another great pessimistic German
1:07:03philosopher said uh today it is bad
1:07:06tomorrow it will be worse until the
1:07:08worst of all happens death um you know
1:07:12totally Bleak and you read that and you
1:07:13think I feel a bit better about today
1:07:16already I'm starting to cheer up um I
1:07:19think we really get it wrong but we
1:07:20think we think the only way to cheer
1:07:22someone up is to tell them someone cheer
1:07:23something cheerful I think the the Brits
1:07:25have understood this you know right we
1:07:27you know great this country's got lots
1:07:29of problems but one thing it understands
1:07:31is melancholy and the the relief
1:07:34available in dark humor um and and you
1:07:38know bless our American friends but they
1:07:41don't get it um as as much you know if
1:07:45if you pitch up in LA and someone goes
1:07:46how are you and you go you know it's bad
1:07:48today tomorrow be wor the worst of all
1:07:50happens they have you sectioned it's not
1:07:53you know your life in Los Angeles is not
1:07:55going to take off you know what I mean
1:07:57yeah I I've heard you refer to
1:07:59Melancholy as tragedy well handled
1:08:01absolutely tragedy well handled I I
1:08:04Adore that I think it's so great you
1:08:06know Sam Harris has something he says
1:08:08something very similar you know you you
1:08:10have to smile at the absurdity of life
1:08:15these situations just as things were
1:08:17smooth something comes along and
1:08:19completely sideswipes what you had
1:08:20planned yeah um and an interesting
1:08:23Insight I suppose that
1:08:27the volume that you complain is probably
1:08:30proportional
1:08:32to the amount that you aren't that
1:08:35you're inable to see life for what it is
1:08:37which is not at your whim life is going
1:08:40to have problems thrown at you yeah
1:08:42because let's let's not do down
1:08:43complaining I mean it's one of the great
1:08:45Pleasures it's one of Britain's great
1:08:46pastimes well you know it's one of
1:08:48everybody you know and and you know
1:08:49being able to complain to a loved one
1:08:51and and you know you'll have to listen
1:08:52to their complaints too but um to comp
1:08:55complain without expectation of a
1:08:57solution I mean the big complaint that
1:08:59every Mortal uh you know directs to the
1:09:02sky ultimately is why do I have to die
1:09:04and you know and then you work your way
1:09:05down from that to why do I have to go to
1:09:07work why you know all these things but
1:09:10um yes life would be a poor thing if we
1:09:13if we weren't allowed to spend a good
1:09:14deal part of it complaining I've heard
1:09:16you say that uh adult relationships are
1:09:18a litmus test of our emotional
1:09:20development that there um a moment where
1:09:22your past catches up with your present
1:09:25how so why is that the case so the way
1:09:28we love as adults always Bears the
1:09:30imprint of the way which we were loved
1:09:33and we loved as children and that hugely
1:09:37restricts how we're able to behave and
1:09:40explains the very peculiar often
1:09:43nonsensical often counterproductive ways
1:09:45in which we love um we're not free to
1:09:48love just anyone and and this you know
1:09:52I'm sure you all have had this in your
1:09:53life met people Etc who will say things
1:09:56like I seem to have ended up with quite
1:09:57a difficult person for me you know
1:09:59they're really they're quite challenging
1:10:01for me why can't I go in love somebody
1:10:03else why am I so in love with this
1:10:05person who's quite challenging and often
1:10:08it's because what's challenging sits on
1:10:11the very area that was challenging in
1:10:13your past and that's what makes them
1:10:15attractive now before you know we want
1:10:17to jump off a cliff at the pessimism
1:10:19involved let's be a little optimistic
1:10:21here um in a good relationship um we are
1:10:26drawn towards people who yes carry some
1:10:28of the puzzles some of the knots some of
1:10:30the challenges of a parental figure or
1:10:34figure of a a caregiver um but they hold
1:10:38out the promise of a different ending so
1:10:41whereas in the relationship with parent
1:10:43or caregiver it ended up with shouting
1:10:45and you stormed out of the house and
1:10:47you're no longer in touch with
1:10:48them Imagine The Joy imagine the sense
1:10:52of triumph over sort of adversity and
1:10:56non-communication if you are together as
1:10:58a couple able to move towards
1:11:01understanding and mutual growth I think
1:11:03that explains why people hang in there
1:11:07with people who you might think you know
1:11:10take you know talk about um attachment
1:11:12uh Theory you know an anxious person who
1:11:16who teams up with an avoidant one you
1:11:17might want to go why why are you with
1:11:19this avoidant person you look at this
1:11:21other I'm going to present you with a
1:11:22perfectly securely attached person and
1:11:23you go oh they're a bit boring don't
1:11:25really want them you think why what's
1:11:27going on is this pure
1:11:29perversion let's be generous towards
1:11:31that impulse they're trying to find a
1:11:33different ending to probably a very
1:11:35painful early situation um and to be
1:11:39able to do that to be able to grow
1:11:40together is literally I think one of the
1:11:43most exciting and lovely things it's
1:11:45rare which is why successful love is
1:11:47rare um but yeah to grow together away
1:11:52from your early attachment wounds powers
1:11:55a lot of the ambition of love seems like
1:11:59deciding whether to stay in or leave a
1:12:02relationship can sometimes be a
1:12:04protracted decision uh which might be
1:12:07surprising given that we have this short
1:12:08time on Earth and and we don't want to
1:12:10waste it I think a lot of people have
1:12:12problems breaking up with someone even
1:12:15though they they might not make them
1:12:16particularly very happy yeah why do
1:12:19people get stuck in unhappy
1:12:21relationships in that
1:12:23way um
1:12:25there are you know I I think the the
1:12:27mood of the modern world the mood of
1:12:29modern Instagram I've observed is all
1:12:32about ditch them Chuck them run away
1:12:33it's it's a pure pathology you are you
1:12:36are sticking around someone's suboptimal
1:12:38for purely pathological reasons um
1:12:41that's got to be true in some cases it
1:12:43is definitely true in some cases but
1:12:46because it's so well known nowadays that
1:12:48that's true let's stick up for the other
1:12:50side
1:12:51um sometimes it's hard sometimes we we
1:12:55stick around very challenging situations
1:12:58because
1:13:00um we want to try and grow together we
1:13:04want to try and make progress um and
1:13:07sometimes we can sometimes we can't so
1:13:09you know it's a balance I don't want to
1:13:11Advocate you know an end as the
1:13:12unfulfilling relationship but
1:13:15but good relationships will be marked by
1:13:20a heavy dose of what Psy
1:13:21psychotherapists call rupture and repair
1:13:24a break and a a repair um and the
1:13:27ability to you know the thing crashes at
1:13:30night but the next morning it's fixed
1:13:32you know our friends in the East you
1:13:34know the Japanese tradition of kins sui
1:13:35fixing that that bowl with golden
1:13:38lacquer fixing the break it's a very
1:13:42very important and satisfying part of
1:13:45all
1:13:46relationships
1:13:47um yeah yeah what about the what about
1:13:51the people who are in a relationship but
1:13:54don't have the courage to leave they
1:13:57probably have this they feel stuck sort
1:13:59of stuck in
1:14:01this unsatisfactory not abusive not
1:14:04terrible but just they have that fear
1:14:07pulling the pin making that move you
1:14:09know you talked about primary secondary
1:14:10emotions let's not shame these people
1:14:14right let's not add to their woes that
1:14:16they are deficient and Ill in some way
1:14:19um they're finding something very hard
1:14:21and that's okay let's bear with how
1:14:24difficult it is you know again I it I
1:14:27I'm frustrated by the modern temper
1:14:29which is like get out shoot the awful
1:14:32person you know and and join the
1:14:34liberated
1:14:35Uplands maybe maybe and maybe that is
1:14:38what they're going to do but you know
1:14:41let's be very thoughtful about why
1:14:43they've ended up there let's not you
1:14:45know this might just
1:14:48be they might find hundred things in
1:14:50life quite easy this is what they're
1:14:52finding difficult and let's acknowledge
1:14:54that M let's be very kind to that um and
1:14:58let's hold their hands through it you
1:14:59know why what's what's difficult for
1:15:02them is it that they think that um
1:15:06they'll be judged by other people right
1:15:09what's the fear what's the fear I'll be
1:15:10judged by okay how does that fear stuck
1:15:12up with what might really happen or I'll
1:15:15never meet anyone new okay let's think
1:15:17about that let's not immediately say oh
1:15:18you will maybe they won't you know let
1:15:21take it calmly Etc I just I'm really
1:15:23resistant to some of this narrative
1:15:26which is you know get out get rid of the
1:15:29awful underperforming people and get
1:15:31into that golden relationship that's
1:15:32been promised to you in heaven it's not
1:15:34you know that may be the direction of
1:15:36travel but let's just acknowledge the
1:15:38bumps yeah I think it's unrealistic you
1:15:40know there's a lot of people who just
1:15:41don't want to make a fuss that there's
1:15:44this sort of fear this question is it
1:15:46fair to want what I want you mentioned
1:15:48before how do people that from the
1:15:51outside you go why why her with him M
1:15:55him with her why why would that Union
1:15:59happen and
1:16:01um we don't get to choose what we love
1:16:03in many ways you know absolutely not we
1:16:06are we are you know we we think we've
1:16:07done away with the arranged marriage no
1:16:09we haven't it's just become an
1:16:10emotionally arranged marriage internally
1:16:13arranged rather than arranged by our
1:16:16parents yeah I think uh again for the
1:16:20cerebrally uh
1:16:22predisposed you kind of rail against
1:16:24that why can't I why if only I could can
1:16:28you not get in line with you please all
1:16:30of the things they're there in front of
1:16:32me they they have the and and we get
1:16:34literally irritated and and just to be
1:16:36able to understand it it's it's like
1:16:39saying you know why can't Mount Everest
1:16:40be small or why can't the sky be less
1:16:42blue whatever we're trying to change a
1:16:44constituent element of reality and and I
1:16:47think we need to have as much respect
1:16:49for the inner architecture as we do for
1:16:52the outer architecture you wouldn't look
1:16:53at a building and go want to get rid of
1:16:55that Wing immediately you you'd
1:16:57understand that it was incredibly
1:16:58difficult it's the same thing just
1:16:59because it's intangible doesn't mean
1:17:01it's not incredibly stubborn and hard
1:17:04you know it's hard to change do we need
1:17:07to uh build create the capacity to give
1:17:10up on people in that way does that help
1:17:13um yes I think some of us do you know
1:17:16the you know again it's life's all about
1:17:18finding what's the thing that what's the
1:17:20lesson that you need to hear so there
1:17:22are some people um not everyone but some
1:17:25people really need to hear um a little
1:17:28lesson about how sometimes they should
1:17:29give up on people that sometimes making
1:17:31excuses for people or trying to
1:17:33understand where people are coming from
1:17:34Etc it can go too far that that those
1:17:37very nice traits can go too far and that
1:17:39the next best thing that you need to do
1:17:41is to be able to say goodbye without too
1:17:44much regret that might be the lesson
1:17:46that you need to do and let's remember
1:17:49the people who on the whole find it very
1:17:51hard to give up on people are people who
1:17:53couldn't give up as children can't on
1:17:55parents who are very unsatisfactory you
1:17:57can't expect a 5-year-old child to give
1:17:59up on a parent so a parent can be
1:18:01beating the child every night and the
1:18:04child will think oh maybe it's my fault
1:18:07because the child cannot bear to give up
1:18:09on the parent and do the thing that
1:18:11would be natural to do which is to say
1:18:12I'm in the hands of an abusive parent
1:18:14you can't do that when you're five got
1:18:15no access to lawyers youve got no money
1:18:17you can't go anywhere you are trapped
1:18:19and therefore you become a world expert
1:18:21in not giving up on people but some of
1:18:24adulthood require is precisely the
1:18:25opposite
1:18:27sometimes getting perilously close to
1:18:29people pleasing here uh and that sort of
1:18:32tendency to put other people's emotions
1:18:35y ahead of our own make their emotional
1:18:37state our responsibility if you're not
1:18:39okay I'm not
1:18:42okay how how can we better alchemize
1:18:47that and understand that that tendency I
1:18:49mean look let's remember so the
1:18:51psychology of the so-called people
1:18:52pleasing person is someone who
1:18:55no one tried to please for themselves
1:18:57right in other words they were in an
1:18:59asymmetrical relationship probably with
1:19:01a caregiver or parent who um didn't care
1:19:04about their feelings they didn't
1:19:05prioritize their their needs Etc and
1:19:08they had to adjust to to to them so you
1:19:11know if you've got a parent with a
1:19:12volcanic temper where anything might set
1:19:15them off well what you say or think is
1:19:17going to Disappear Completely because
1:19:19all you're going to be doing as a child
1:19:20is managing the mood of a parent they
1:19:22will be an infant essentially and you
1:19:24will have to be in the parenting role
1:19:26and you'll have to put aside your needs
1:19:28and um children are great Geniuses at
1:19:31reading the room and doing what needs to
1:19:33be done to survive it's a survival
1:19:36strategy I will become a people pleaser
1:19:38not in order to annoy people in later
1:19:39life but in order to survive in order to
1:19:42get to the next stage of existence in
1:19:43order to reach adolescence let's face it
1:19:46and um the problem with in this as in so
1:19:49many other neurotic structures is a very
1:19:51good idea outlives its use and so it's
1:19:54still oper ating in circumstances where
1:19:55it's no longer needed so what we need to
1:19:57tell what the what the people needs to
1:19:59tell themselves is it was amazing at the
1:20:02age of five I cleverly worked out that I
1:20:04needed to people please in order to cope
1:20:06with my intemperate father but that
1:20:08Situation's now gone and if I keep doing
1:20:11this with my partner with my colleagues
1:20:13Etc it's going to annoy everybody and
1:20:15it's going to create serious problems um
1:20:17so what needs to be done is that person
1:20:19shouldn't feel shamed they should be
1:20:21made to feel proud there should be a
1:20:23little ceremony where they're able to
1:20:25say to their 5-year-old self thank you
1:20:27thank you little whatever it is um thank
1:20:29you for carrying me to a later stage um
1:20:32and working out something so clever and
1:20:34this this applies for all defensive
1:20:37neurotic structures I mean let's imagine
1:20:39somebody who can't feel very much who's
1:20:41invulnerable doesn't open themselves up
1:20:42to other people and in relationships
1:20:44that person may be shamed oh oh so and
1:20:46so oh they they they're afraid of
1:20:48intimacy you want to go okay shaming
1:20:51this person's not going to help you have
1:20:52to ask a another question which is in
1:20:54what circumstances did their current
1:20:56behavior make sense first question and
1:20:59they it always will make sense you go
1:21:01back in time and you say right in those
1:21:03circumstances of course it may you know
1:21:06your father was dying your mother was
1:21:07absent of course it made sense not to
1:21:09feel anything you would have been
1:21:10destroyed by your feelings therefore
1:21:13very clever five sixy old you to work
1:21:16out that it's best not to feel problem
1:21:17is you're now 35 or 45 and there's lots
1:21:20of reason to feel because there's
1:21:21someone loving nearby or there's you
1:21:23you've got children or whatever
1:21:25um and therefore we need to say thank
1:21:28you to the younger self and then we can
1:21:30move on but shame is not going to do it
1:21:32to to wag a finger and go oh another one
1:21:34who's afraid of intimacy there no one
1:21:36ever changed like that yeah the
1:21:40uh realization that doing that
1:21:43internally being a tyrant to yourself
1:21:45also isn't necessarily the best way to
1:21:47encourage you into Behavior change
1:21:49whipping yourself into submission yeah
1:21:52it's it's it's missing the logic of of
1:21:55why you're doing what you're doing as I
1:21:56say so much of what we do as adults
1:21:58makes no sense even to us you know why
1:22:00am I worried every morning again ask
1:22:03yourself the question a key question for
1:22:05your viewers listeners um when did the
1:22:08current behavior which now doesn't seem
1:22:10to make sense when did it once make
1:22:12sense in what circumstances did this
1:22:15pattern develop this pattern that is now
1:22:17in verom is mad or destructive or boring
1:22:21or counterproductive when did it make
1:22:23sense and if you you can start to see a
1:22:25logic again there always will be one I I
1:22:27would suggest there almost always will
1:22:29be one there will be a moment when to
1:22:31feel anxious every morning was bound up
1:22:34with your safety and your survival to
1:22:35the next stage of life so if you can
1:22:38recover contact with what that stage was
1:22:41you'll then be in a position to honor
1:22:43the defensive strategy but also say
1:22:46goodbye to it what are some of the uh
1:22:48best and worst ways to tell somebody
1:22:50that it's over in a relationship h
1:22:55um look one of the worst ways is not to
1:22:58explain at all why something come to
1:23:01feel necessary in other words just
1:23:03running away and leaving someone no
1:23:06sense because that then leaves the
1:23:08person to imagine everything and most of
1:23:10our imaginations are dark places in this
1:23:11Regard in other words we think that
1:23:13someone hates us boundlessly or is
1:23:15trying to humiliate us or deliberately
1:23:18wanted to be cruel to us or Etc and in
1:23:21many many cases I venture to say most
1:23:23cases when someone leaves someone it
1:23:26isn't those things it's the truth is the
1:23:29truth is better than we think it's still
1:23:33tough you know it's very very tough um
1:23:36you know those attachment ruptures uh in
1:23:39everyone's life there some of the most
1:23:40painful things we will ever have to go
1:23:42through to to to build a life with
1:23:44someone and then see that life disappear
1:23:47I mean we need we need space to mourn
1:23:50you know in in Judaism when someone dies
1:23:54you lose a um a spouse you you're
1:23:57allowed a year of mourning you're
1:23:59allowed you wear black and you allowed a
1:24:01year of mourning where not too much is
1:24:03expected of you both professionally and
1:24:04personally you can go a bit mad and
1:24:06that's all right everyone looks after
1:24:07you they know you're in
1:24:09mourning we kind of need that when we're
1:24:11heartbroken when we're serious because
1:24:12we're dealing with something that is
1:24:14from an emotional point of view as
1:24:15serious this is as serious um as a as a
1:24:19I mean this literally is a loss someone
1:24:21has died you know and um so we need we
1:24:24need that space so so to come back to
1:24:25your question how to break up um to to
1:24:29be able to explain diplomatically kindly
1:24:34generously some of the real reasons why
1:24:37and as the person who's leaving not to
1:24:40feel that those reasons not to be
1:24:41ashamed of those reasons you know people
1:24:44feel relationships don't have to go on
1:24:46forever sometimes relationships have a
1:24:48cell by date they are there they were
1:24:50formed for a particular purpose
1:24:52unconscious to to carry us to an next
1:24:54stage and maybe that stage has come to
1:24:56an end for for someone and we can
1:24:59explain that we can try and you know
1:25:02verbalize that um but also Clarity and
1:25:07sometimes people try to be kind in ways
1:25:10that end up being very very cruel um I
1:25:13want to leave you but but let's go on
1:25:14holiday together really is that is that
1:25:16a wise thing or um I w't leave you but
1:25:19you know let's be in touch every day you
1:25:20know and I'll just still call you what I
1:25:22used to call you you know when we were
1:25:23very intimate tough that's tough so we
1:25:26may you know couples May out of kindness
1:25:28out of mutual respect go you know
1:25:31there's still a lot of love there's
1:25:32still lot of affection but probably
1:25:33shouldn't be in touch that much for a
1:25:36little while you think it's a bad idea
1:25:38for exes to try and be friends um look
1:25:41it depends but I think I think you know
1:25:44there needs to be healing doesn't there
1:25:45there needs to be um a break that's
1:25:48marked and honored so that two people
1:25:51can um recover
1:25:55how do you come to think about the
1:25:57balance
1:25:58between fixing our patterns
1:26:00investigating them and and dwelling on
1:26:02them it seems like a lot of criticism is
1:26:04thrown at sort of reflecting on our past
1:26:08as akin to indulging in it in a way uh
1:26:11not allowing us to move forward yeah
1:26:13this is a a common debate that I'm
1:26:15seeing online at the moment yes some
1:26:17people I think are very afraid about
1:26:18responsibility here aren't they they're
1:26:20very afraid that someone will go oh I'm
1:26:22sorry I did that thing but the thing is
1:26:24it's childhood and that's why it you
1:26:25know and the people will evade um basic
1:26:29responsibility so I think one can take
1:26:31full responsibility full ownership while
1:26:33still explaining it people are also very
1:26:35worried about blaming parents often
1:26:38that's another one that comes up a lot
1:26:39you know people will go um if I start to
1:26:41investigate patterns Etc the only
1:26:43solution is then to get angry with my
1:26:45parents well again there's a real you
1:26:47know people are lied was like anger
1:26:49blame Etc you can you can say this
1:26:52happened because of childh Dynamics no
1:26:54one really wanted it maybe no one's evil
1:26:57but it definitely happened and you know
1:26:59we can't evade that um you know is the
1:27:03result anger Fury it doesn't have to be
1:27:05sometimes it could be um uh yeah
1:27:10so look it's so many of these lessons
1:27:13it's it's horses for courses we we we
1:27:15need broad Strokes are very difficult
1:27:17with stuff like this I understand that
1:27:19but yeah I think
1:27:21um dealing with an unhappy childhood
1:27:25retrospectively not resenting things
1:27:27that happened to us then and we're now
1:27:29at the mercy of uh wanting to be able to
1:27:33investigate why we are the way we are
1:27:36whilst not allowing that to Define us
1:27:41um I don't know there's there's an
1:27:43interesting movement at the moment
1:27:45almost towards denial we've got you know
1:27:47the horeshoe was horses shoed back
1:27:49around it it's been rotated a couple of
1:27:50times and uh I wonder whether this is
1:27:53just a a requisite push back to some of
1:27:56the over pathologization of normal human
1:27:58emotions you know the use of therapy
1:28:00Language online that somebody hasn't
1:28:01been mean to me they've caused me trauma
1:28:03that that person isn't selfish they're a
1:28:05narcissist exactly and um yeah I I'm
1:28:08starting to see now a little bit more of
1:28:12a lean away from reflecting on why you
1:28:15are the way you are uh and again it's
1:28:18very much this is just one cohort of
1:28:20people saying that cohort of people over
1:28:22there their strategy doesn't work for me
1:28:23and vice versa yeah um look I mean we're
1:28:26a car that needs different gears you
1:28:28know some we need to go forward some we
1:28:29go backwards we need to turn right we
1:28:31need to turn left we we need full
1:28:33maneuverability right and I think when
1:28:35people discover an exciting idea the
1:28:38great tendency is to go well this tool
1:28:40kit will explain absolutely everything
1:28:41and and this will be the only thing I
1:28:43need and you know this is why we need
1:28:46the whole history of ideas this is why
1:28:49well stocked mind has got in it you know
1:28:52some some books on the stoics as it were
1:28:54some ideas from the stoics some ideas
1:28:55about you know resilience and about
1:28:57shutting down emotion and about turning
1:28:59towards pain and all that we need that
1:29:02sometimes we need an aristocratic side
1:29:03we might have read NE and his
1:29:05aristocratic sense of you know needing
1:29:07to overcome and you know what doesn't
1:29:09kill you makes you stronger Etc
1:29:10sometimes we need n but if you're only
1:29:12dieting on nature you may also need you
1:29:14know John Balan attachment Theory but if
1:29:16you're only snacking on John BBY so we
1:29:18need a well stocked mind and I think
1:29:21that um as I say I I appreciate that
1:29:24people fall so in love with certain
1:29:26ideas that they think that's all they're
1:29:28going to need it's rather you know it's
1:29:30it's monotheism um you know only one God
1:29:33correct and you know the great thing
1:29:35about paganism you know ancient uh Roman
1:29:38or or or or Greek religion but you know
1:29:40finally in India too and other parts of
1:29:41the world there were many gods there was
1:29:43the god of the river but there was also
1:29:45the god of the sky and there was the god
1:29:46of the cloud and there was the god of
1:29:47rain and there was the god of sunshine
1:29:49and God many many gods and we need many
1:29:52gods um and uh just as in our social
1:29:54lives let's remember um you know total
1:29:57monotheism doesn't you know it's like I
1:29:59need one lover and they will answer all
1:30:00my needs that's quite tough on the lover
1:30:03um you may also need a friend who's
1:30:04brilliant at that thing and there's a
1:30:05friend who's also good at this so we
1:30:07need a um a paganism of
1:30:11ideas yeah my friend ginda has this idea
1:30:14called the golden Hammer when someone
1:30:16usually an intellectual who has gained a
1:30:18cultish following for popularizing a
1:30:19concept becomes so drunk with power he
1:30:22thinks he can apply that concept to
1:30:23everything thing exactly uh exactly we
1:30:26think it's the yeah the hammer that the
1:30:28one size fits all yeah this is
1:30:30everything looks like a nail slots into
1:30:32your very specific very fancy gilded
1:30:35yeah uh piece of work look you know we
1:30:37can forgive it it's it's very exciting
1:30:40when you come across an idea that you
1:30:41think ex and does explain a lot of the
1:30:43world I this what happens when people
1:30:44discover Marxism they think oh my
1:30:45goodness this model explains everything
1:30:48and then no it's really good explain
1:30:49certain things and then they discover
1:30:50Freud freudianism it explains everything
1:30:53and no go steud we need multiple tools I
1:30:57wonder
1:31:00whether this helps to constrain some of
1:31:03the complexity of the world as well well
1:31:05if I have one book if it's meditations
1:31:09or if
1:31:13it's if if if it's some ancient Chinese
1:31:16text if if we're looking at some Lau or
1:31:18something and you think well that one
1:31:21thing answers everything I don't need to
1:31:22look elsewhere yes and the the problem
1:31:24is that we're finite creatures
1:31:26surrounded by infinite complexity so the
1:31:30the battlefield is stacked somewhat the
1:31:32deck is is offset against our favor and
1:31:35if we can constrain down the complexity
1:31:37that we're fighting with we say well
1:31:38we've got this one person and he's got
1:31:39all of the one guy has all of the
1:31:41answers why I don't necessar and you
1:31:44know we see it in religion we see it in
1:31:46politics one person has got you know
1:31:48it's got everything and and it can't be
1:31:50true but you're right I mean we're
1:31:52drowning in inputs and that leads us to
1:31:55a certain kind of um yeah remorseless
1:31:59quest for the one input um and I
1:32:03remember remember there was a um reading
1:32:05a book there's a line say something like
1:32:07all of us are going to die with a book
1:32:09half red on our bedside may not
1:32:12literally be true but there capturing
1:32:14something important there that um our
1:32:17exploration will be unfinished it's
1:32:19quite daunting it's very sad very sad
1:32:22thought you know that we won't and of
1:32:24course the book that we really won't
1:32:25have finished reading is the book of
1:32:26ourselves we won't have understood more
1:32:30than a a share of ourselves that's
1:32:33that's very frightening we all have you
1:32:36know on an average gravestone it should
1:32:38say you know here lies do you know who
1:32:39half understood who they were they only
1:32:42half understood that's very weird like
1:32:45you have you know you're you're on your
1:32:47deathbed and you don't really know who
1:32:49you have been was it Gerta that on his
1:32:51deathbed pronounced uh nobody really
1:32:54knows me I don't really know anybody
1:32:56else nobody knows anyone really yeah
1:32:58yeah yeah yeah so that kind of Despair
1:33:01um surrounded by friends and family what
1:33:03a way to C call see you later on yeah
1:33:08speaking on that do you think it's
1:33:09inevitable for deep thinkers to be more
1:33:12lonely is the the Deep or sensitive
1:33:15thinker kind of fated to have a bit of
1:33:19distance you know it's a ticklish topic
1:33:20isn't it because to say um
1:33:24you know I'm I'm not doing so well in
1:33:25life I'm a bit isolated from think
1:33:27because I'm so marvelous you know could
1:33:29go come on you know um however let's
1:33:32face it
1:33:34um you know look it's like imagine
1:33:37imagine you had a very sophisticated
1:33:40diet and you walk through you know we're
1:33:42in London now you walk through average
1:33:44Street of London um there would be fewer
1:33:47restaurants and eating places and and
1:33:49supermarkets that you could go into to
1:33:51get the food that you need because
1:33:53because your dietry needs will be quite
1:33:55complicated there's a version of this
1:33:57around social ability um if you only
1:34:01need to talk about certain things you
1:34:03know if you are I don't know let's
1:34:04imagine you're Brian Cox we don't I
1:34:06don't know Brian Cox personally and you
1:34:07really just really love interplanetary
1:34:10phenomena
1:34:12um you're not going to meet that many
1:34:14people who who will Who will really be
1:34:17able to meet you on on those topics I
1:34:19mean or even be that interested they
1:34:20might go oh Brian I loved your show but
1:34:23just you know enough of the black holes
1:34:25enough of the black holes you know and
1:34:26so he might find himself a little bit
1:34:28lonely I mean who knows about his life
1:34:30I'm sure he's you know but but used to
1:34:32be a rockar you know that yes yeah yeah
1:34:34yeah but you know or or or imagine if
1:34:36you are I don't know imagine if you were
1:34:38Freud and um Freud was you know he had
1:34:41some collaborators but he also fell out
1:34:43with a lot of them and um didn't get on
1:34:45with you know lot of people so one might
1:34:49argue that complexity of mind um
1:34:53militates against um easily finding um
1:34:58few people like you you going have to
1:35:00work harder in order say that's fair
1:35:02enough that's fair enough
1:35:05yeah I we mentioned we sort of touched
1:35:07on it earlier on I think it's maybe
1:35:08worth just revisiting a little bit
1:35:10trying to the deeper thinker the more
1:35:14serious person the earnest person how
1:35:17can
1:35:18they find more fun inject a little bit
1:35:22less of that um uh loneliness in they're
1:35:26in an area where maybe people don't
1:35:28resonate quite so much they don't have
1:35:30quite so so many of the conversations
1:35:32that they can I ask a slightly different
1:35:34question just because look I think it's
1:35:37really important to think that the deep
1:35:39thinker the the earnest person Etc
1:35:43um I want to I don't want to suggest
1:35:46that there are these people called
1:35:47Geniuses wandering around the world and
1:35:49they've got they're so different from
1:35:50everybody else I love this quote from
1:35:52Emerson where he said says in the minds
1:35:54of geniuses we find our own neglected
1:35:58thoughts so key in the minds of geniuses
1:36:02we find our own neglected thoughts I
1:36:05think what he was saying there was
1:36:07Geniuses don't have thoughts are
1:36:09categorically different from the ones
1:36:11everybody has what's different is they
1:36:13hold on to them they look at them they
1:36:15feel them um you could say in the minds
1:36:17of artists lie feelings that you know
1:36:21lie our own neglected feelings in other
1:36:23words artist genus Etc they're just
1:36:24paying more attention to the stuff
1:36:26that's in everybody's mind it's not that
1:36:28their stuff in their mind is completely
1:36:30radically different which is why often
1:36:32when you when you hear a great song or a
1:36:35great um piece of poetry or whatever or
1:36:38read a great book sometimes you think I
1:36:40kind of knew that that was already in me
1:36:42that I'm merely being put back in touch
1:36:44with something that's in me already
1:36:46because what the so-called clever person
1:36:48has done is just pay it more attention
1:36:50so let's not deify these people and
1:36:53let's also open up you know quickest way
1:36:55to become a genius pay more attention to
1:36:57your own neglected
1:37:01thoughts I'm interested you know having
1:37:04followed your work for a very very long
1:37:05time and it's been one of the most
1:37:07reliably influential things I think on
1:37:09my intellectual Journey so I want to
1:37:10thank you for uh parasocial guiding me
1:37:14through an awful lot of of situations uh
1:37:18I'd like to say that I remind myself of
1:37:21your work when things are good but it
1:37:22does tend to be sort of thing that I go
1:37:24to when I need a little bit more
1:37:26guidance uh but I'm interested in what
1:37:28drives you the sort of primary
1:37:31motivating forces that are behind your
1:37:34studies and sort of thinking over the
1:37:36years so it's brutally and horribly
1:37:40simple um just to help me get through
1:37:43the day it it is um extremely personal
1:37:49um and motivated entirely by you know a
1:37:53desire for
1:37:55selfhelp um if it helps anybody else I
1:37:58mean people some to say things like gosh
1:37:59did you you must have studied a lot um
1:38:01how did you know that about me and I'm
1:38:03like frankly I have no clue it's just I
1:38:06was just doing my stuff and it's
1:38:08beautiful and lovely that it should Echo
1:38:10into somebody else but that's not how I
1:38:12started it started always with me um and
1:38:17you know I became a writer I wrote my
1:38:20first book when I was 22 and it was not
1:38:23you know it it was a it grew out of
1:38:26writing a diary it grew out of trying to
1:38:28solve my own confusions it was um a way
1:38:32of trying to stay afloat uh emotionally
1:38:35psychically um and it had nothing to do
1:38:38with a career in that sense later on
1:38:40became some of the accoutrements of a
1:38:42career but uh as I say it began and it
1:38:45still is to this day an an emotional
1:38:48necessity I would say it's a way of
1:38:49coping I am I'm an intellectual not
1:38:53fancy fancy thing but I'm intellectual
1:38:55in the sense that I intellectualize pain
1:38:57I you know if something horrible
1:38:59happens my immediate impulse is not to
1:39:02jog or drink or or do all sorts of
1:39:04things people do but it's it's to try
1:39:07and think about well what is this thing
1:39:09what can we what what lesson is there
1:39:13here um and that lesson is is being
1:39:15fished out for me if it helps anybody
1:39:18else fantastic but I do it I do it
1:39:20anyway that's how I operate
1:39:24I've found an odd resonance with what
1:39:25I've done with the show as well um you
1:39:28know in many ways there is a a
1:39:31temptation to do what may be popular or
1:39:35trendy or accumulate the most exposure
1:39:38or status or make you look good and
1:39:39that's always there and uh neither of us
1:39:42are immune to uh those
1:39:46incentives um but I think one of the
1:39:49reasons that I resonated with your work
1:39:52and hopefully
1:39:54some microcosm of people resonate with
1:39:56mine
1:39:57is it very research very much is me
1:40:00search in this situation and the fact
1:40:04you're right how could you have seen The
1:40:07Human Experience has been really sort of
1:40:09shown to me it's like you've turned the
1:40:10mirror around on myself that's it's
1:40:12almost like you're speaking to me well
1:40:13because there's broad buckets of people
1:40:16that sort of fall into similar kind of
1:40:17cohorts and it would appear that perhaps
1:40:19me and you are in a nonto dissimilar
1:40:21cohort and this I think it's a reason
1:40:24for confidence uh in our own work and in
1:40:27listening to our instincts um rather
1:40:30than trying
1:40:32to work out what the market the audience
1:40:36the reader wants yeah just saying okay
1:40:40well what would be useful to me right
1:40:42now what would have been useful to me
1:40:43previously especially given the fact
1:40:45that the thing you need to hear right
1:40:46now is probably the thing that you would
1:40:48tell yourself 10 years ago so it's still
1:40:49it's the same lessons over and over it's
1:40:51what looking at that Circle
1:40:53um and I think it is a it is the best
1:41:00justification for selfishly following
1:41:02your instincts when it comes to an
1:41:05intellectual investigation of yourself
1:41:07of the world around you uh because if
1:41:10you think a thing if you feel a thing if
1:41:12you're challenged with a particular
1:41:14issue it's probably reliable that some
1:41:17non- insignificant absolutely majority
1:41:20perhaps of other people are feeling the
1:41:22same how
1:41:24narcissistic do you need to be
1:41:26to the only one me me this is because
1:41:30that's too mean that's too mean because
1:41:31we don't think of it nastily we think of
1:41:33it shamefully we think I've been singled
1:41:35out for particularly person curse yeah
1:41:37we don't think I'm so great and I'm
1:41:38alone we oh god I've been cursed broken
1:41:41yeah yeah I'm uniquely broken yeah and
1:41:44and you're absolutely right it's so
1:41:45important to bear that in mind by the
1:41:47time you're feeling it other people will
1:41:49be feeling it too and it's so hard to
1:41:51hold on to that thought because we what
1:41:53frankly because we see no visible
1:41:54evidence of it we don't see people
1:41:56talking about it in our vicinity in the
1:41:58in the hundred people we know and move
1:42:00around no one's talking about it openly
1:42:02they're feeling it but they don't talk
1:42:04about it and um and and so we have to
1:42:07hold our nerve and you know there's a
1:42:09there's a uh a lesson here about um
1:42:12capitalism here and business you know
1:42:14which is fascinating I mean it's not
1:42:15naturally area fall into more you know
1:42:17you've talked a lot about this
1:42:19but so many great businesses start
1:42:23precisely like this that somebody thinks
1:42:25there's this thing I really want and
1:42:27need or or that Thrills me and it sounds
1:42:30quite weird to everybody else and the
1:42:31person just sticks with it and just has
1:42:33a hunch about it just as many many
1:42:36business failures are all about someone
1:42:38going someone doing something and then
1:42:41if you if you say to
1:42:42them do you want this does would you buy
1:42:46this thing and then they go actually no
1:42:48I wouldn't you know so why are you
1:42:49making it for somebody else if if it's
1:42:51got no resonance with you you know
1:42:53careful careful you know the biggest
1:42:56business disasters are people making
1:42:58stuff that they haven't asked themselves
1:43:01would I really want this yes the word uh
1:43:04grift is thrown around on the internet a
1:43:06lot and I was I've asked people to
1:43:08Define it you know this person is
1:43:10grifting or Shilling for a particular
1:43:12product or company or or ideology
1:43:15whatever it might be and um I ask the
1:43:17best definition that I've ever heard one
1:43:19that I actually accept I don't like the
1:43:20word because I think it gets patent
1:43:21matched incorrectly almost all the time
1:43:24but the best definition is uh somebody
1:43:25promoting something that they themselves
1:43:27would not use or believe right I think
1:43:30and that's good and and there's an
1:43:32intellectual version of that when
1:43:33someone reads a book Etc and they've
1:43:35lost touch and they and they're spouting
1:43:37K or Hegel or fiton or whatever it may
1:43:40be or attachment to and it's not fitting
1:43:43them and therefore there's something you
1:43:45know wrong but I think many hours ago
1:43:48now we began in in this place which is
1:43:51how difficult it is to
1:43:53hone that authentic muscle where you
1:43:56feel something you hold on to it you
1:43:57think no one else is talking about it
1:43:59but let me let me stay with that because
1:44:01I think it's a thing for me so it may be
1:44:04a thing for somebody else even though no
1:44:05one's mentioning it takes a lot of
1:44:06Courage how much better have you become
1:44:08at understanding yourself over the years
1:44:10how much have you been able to nudge
1:44:12those fundamental physics of of your
1:44:14system um I made some progress yeah
1:44:18definitely made some progress and I'd
1:44:19say that I understand myself more than
1:44:21I've been able to change myself
1:44:23and one could go oh so nothing's really
1:44:25changed well understanding is a thing as
1:44:27well that is its own legitimate thing
1:44:30you know do I always make you know wise
1:44:31choices now am I always you know no but
1:44:34I do understand things better yes I
1:44:36think I've um also better understanding
1:44:39my unconscious and by that I mean you
1:44:41know it's also what people call their
1:44:42gut instinct um I do think that there
1:44:46are things we know without fully knowing
1:44:49why we know them or how we know them and
1:44:51to allow a little bit more for that
1:44:54slightly mysterious form of knowing um
1:44:57you know we talking about sentence
1:44:58completion exercises where you're
1:45:00completing a sentence just letting
1:45:01something Bubble Up from your
1:45:03unconscious um I try and do that more
1:45:05and more um but I ask myself simple
1:45:07questions like you know what's what's re
1:45:10what am I really feeling here don't
1:45:12don't overthink this what's really going
1:45:14on you know you've met this person what
1:45:16do you really feel around them just say
1:45:18it say it to yourself don't you know
1:45:19what do you feel and then and then
1:45:21holding on to that that something quite
1:45:23important's gone on there that your
1:45:24answer captures something that a more
1:45:28thought Laden answer might not um and
1:45:31and trusting that a bit more um in love
1:45:35in work in friendship in in areas of
1:45:38daily
1:45:39life
1:45:41I would say that one of the biggest
1:45:44contributions at least that I've seen
1:45:46from your work for me personally is
1:45:50that Stark assess of The Human Condition
1:45:55uh a very
1:45:57sanguin uh some would say British
1:45:59slightly
1:46:01self-deprecating honest admission of how
1:46:04flawed how insane how
1:46:07irrational uh how silly shameful we can
1:46:10be a lot of the time and uh yourself
1:46:14Oliver burkeman if you're familiar with
1:46:16Oliver as well yeah um again you know
1:46:18sort of really embracing that British
1:46:20melancholic sort of tragedy well-handled
1:46:22type thing yeah uh you know I this has
1:46:24been a very long time coming I've wanted
1:46:26you on the podcast since before I began
1:46:27it uh I went back and looked at my first
1:46:30ever set of notes that I had that has
1:46:31your name in I'm sure there's stuff
1:46:33that's a little bit earlier than that
1:46:34and that was 2017 so it's late to the
1:46:37party perhaps in the broad scheme of
1:46:39things but very early to the party in my
1:46:41intellectual trajectory and uh making
1:46:46people feel less alone in the challenges
1:46:49that they face the
1:46:51day-to-day mination this personal curse
1:46:54that huh I didn't know anybody else felt
1:46:57like that at least I'm not at least it's
1:46:59not just me at least I've not had this
1:47:02thing sort of thrown down on me from
1:47:03above and uh yeah I definitely when I
1:47:06find myself embracing that with the show
1:47:09uh with the content that I create with
1:47:10the thoughts that I have with the way
1:47:12that I try to direct things with the way
1:47:13that I try to uh push people forward um
1:47:16especially in my age I'm 36 and this is
1:47:20there's a number of different directions
1:47:21that I can kind of go down um and the
1:47:24one that's pulling me the most at the
1:47:25moment is a much
1:47:29more Stark assessment of the silliness
1:47:34and irrationality and shamefulness of
1:47:35The Human Condition and I just want to
1:47:37say thank you very much for helping to
1:47:39be a uh a role model for me to be able
1:47:41to do that more thank you so much Chris
1:47:43lovely words so generous thank you where
1:47:46should people go if they want to keep up
1:47:47to date with more of the stuff that
1:47:48you're doing um so uh School of Life
1:47:51organization that I started um if you if
1:47:55you follow our stuff every every day I'm
1:47:57writing stuff for the for our website
1:47:59for our app Etc so there's content
1:48:01coming out all the time and we got a lot
1:48:02of books I've written 15 books under my
1:48:04own name I've written about 70 books uh
1:48:07under the School of Life uh together
1:48:09with my colleague John uh so we got a
1:48:11lot of stuff out there um yeah I
1:48:14appreciate you so much thank you mate
1:48:16thank you thank you Chris

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