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How to Find the Meaning You’ve Been Looking For - Jordan Peterson (4K) — Transcript

by Chris Williamson · 35,245 words · 5,101 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00you say you are morally obligated to do
0:03remarkable things
0:07why well I think partly because life is
0:11so difficult and challenging that unless
0:15you give it everything you have the
0:19chances are very high that it will
0:21embitter you and then you'll be a force
0:24for darkness and not good and
0:27so you know the the fact that life is
0:31short and can be brutal can terrify you
0:36into
0:38hiding and avoiding but it it can also
0:42you can flip that on its head and
0:44understand that since you're all in
0:46anyways you might as well take take the
0:50risks that are
0:51adventurous and that's a very good thing
0:54to
0:55understand and what is also useful to
0:58understand in that is that there isn't
1:01anything more adventurous than the
1:03truth this is something that took me a
1:05long time to figure out well you can
1:08craft your words to get what you want
1:11you know and people do that all the time
1:13they craft their words so they can avoid
1:15taking responsibility for things they
1:16should take responsibility for they can
1:18craft the words to gain an advantage
1:21that they really don't deserve that's
1:23what you do when you
1:24manipulate and the problem with that you
1:26might say well why not do that if I can
1:28get what I want and the answer that is
1:31you aren't necessarily the best judge of
1:33what you need and it's easy to be
1:36diluted in what you want and that's the
1:38sort of delusions that people chase if
1:40they chase
1:41power if you decide instead that you're
1:44going to just say what you believe to be
1:47true you have to let go of the
1:49consequences and you might think well I
1:51don't want to let go of the consequences
1:52because I want to control what's going
1:54on but what you miss then is Adventure
1:57because if you don't control what's
1:59going on you don't know what the hell's
2:00going to happen and maybe that's
2:02exciting and actually there's no doubt
2:04about it and then you have the
2:06additional Advantage if you're
2:07attempting to say what you believe to be
2:10true and attempting to act in the manner
2:12that you think is most appropriate
2:14that's genuinely you and you have the
2:17force of reality behind you and
2:19obviously that's what you have if you're
2:21trying to say live in the truth is you
2:23have the force of reality behind you
2:25that seems like a good deal then you
2:26have the reality and the adventure so
2:29why is that a moral obligation well if
2:32you hide and you don't let what's inside
2:35of you out and you don't bring into the
2:37world what you could bring and you
2:38become cynical and bitter you will start
2:42doing very dark things so you'll start
2:44in not only will you not add to the
2:47world what you could add but you'll
2:49start being jealous of people who are
2:53competent and doing well and work to
2:55destroy them
2:57so that's the pathway to hell
3:01really so one of the trends that I've
3:04been railing against most recently has
3:06been cynicism is this pervasive belief
3:10that everything is terrible and it can't
3:13get better and the people who believe
3:15that it can improve a dumb and
3:17delusional and the problem
3:20and I I don't know where it comes from I
3:23don't I don't it's the beginning of
3:25wisdom cynicism this is part of the
3:28reason why it's hard to combat
3:30you know because people start out naive
3:33and naive people are optimistic but not
3:36really they're just naive and naive
3:39people have no idea that there's say
3:42malevolence in the world they have no
3:44idea that there's malevolence in their
3:46own heart they're sheltered and
3:48dependent and when that breaks it often
3:52breaks into cynicism and so cynicism is
3:55actually an improvement the veils have
3:57fallen from your eyes exactly exactly
4:00the problem with cynicism is that
4:02especially if it's allied with a kind of
4:03arrogance is that you can end there and
4:05that's a big mistake so then the
4:07question becomes what once you once
4:09you've been bitten hard and you're no
4:12longer naive well that is very hard on
4:14your optimism let's say so then the
4:16question is how do you restore that
4:19without reverting to the naivity which
4:21you can't do anyways without blinding
4:23yourself once you've been bitten and the
4:25answer to that is you substitute courage
4:27for naivity and you and you regain your
4:29optimism as a moral imperative right so
4:33one of the things you might ask yourself
4:35is well if the future is likely to be
4:38catastrophic in a variety of different
4:40ways which is definitely the case both
4:42socially and personally then what
4:45attitude should you bring to bear on
4:47that and the answer might be well if you
4:49were courageous and faithful and I can
4:52explain what that means then you would
4:55conduct yourself in in a manner that met
4:58the future headon with the presumption
5:00that you can manage it and this is the
5:03presumption we should bring to bear
5:04politically now
5:07these the people who are using fear to
5:11Garner
5:12power point to the various apocalypses
5:15that might befall us and it's difficult
5:18to counter them because the future is
5:20always an apocalyptic Horizon like
5:22everything can fall apart and and has
5:25before and might well again and will in
5:27fact in your life as you age and die and
5:30so it's very easy to conjure up an
5:33apocalypse then the question becomes the
5:36question becomes not is that apocalypse
5:38potentially real because the answer to
5:39that is yes but what attitude should you
5:41have towards that naive that's not good
5:45cynical that's that's better but it's
5:47still not good it's another form of hell
5:49and it also tends to make the potential
5:51apocalypses more likely well so what do
5:54you have when you move Beyond cynicism
5:56and what you have when you move Beyond
5:57cynicism is wisdom and that's not naive
6:01it's Courageous one of the things that
6:03religious people have done relatively
6:05badly especially in recent years is
6:07theyve failed to delineate the
6:09relationship between faith and courage
6:11you know people like Dawkins and the new
6:13atheists they point to Faith and they
6:15describe it as something like belief in
6:17foolish
6:18superstitions but that isn't really what
6:21faith in the deepest sense means it
6:23means that you are willing to act out
6:27the proposition that you can ride the
6:30wave no matter how big it becomes and
6:33that we can all do that together
6:34especially if we do that in Good Will
6:36and I think that's that's a much more
6:39it's a much more appropriate way to
6:41confront the future and it's also the
6:45proper medication for cynicism now the
6:47other thing the cynics see the other
6:49thing about cynicism that's interesting
6:51too is that cynics aren't cynical enough
6:53about their own cynicism right because
6:57you can get doubtful enough to start
6:59doub
7:00the validity of your own cynicism it's
7:02like what makes you so smart what makes
7:05you the judge of being and the Coline
7:08kids were like that you know they
7:09decided that existence itself was
7:11unsustainable given its cruelty and that
7:14the proper response was to put up a
7:16giant middle finger to man men and God
7:20right
7:22well here's a way of being cynical about
7:25cynicism how does your cynicism let you
7:27off the hook right how does your
7:29cynicism justify your desire to avoid
7:33necessary responsibility and to pursue
7:35your own short-term hedonic gains it's
7:37like why aren't you cynical about your
7:39own doubt and that's that's another
7:42place where wisdom begins it's like that
7:46so that's two
7:47right cynicism beats naivity but it's
7:50not the ultimate destination and you
7:53should be cynical enough to question the
7:56moral validity of your own of your own
7:59resentment and your own what would you
8:01say your own turning away from the world
8:03the way that I see it given that we
8:05don't know the future given that much of
8:07our motivations are invisible to
8:10us we're not a Crystal Pond that we can
8:14see
8:15into you have to have some form of
8:18delusion about what's going to happen in
8:19the future you're trying your best to
8:21see the way that it's going to be but
8:23given that the glass could be half empty
8:25or half full why not have a delusion
8:26that's going to be useful to you one of
8:28Hope even in the face and the
8:31understanding that things might be
8:32difficult and that there's going to be
8:33obstacles yeah there was a there was a
8:35line of social psychology that pursued
8:37that argument for quite a while that
8:39made the argument that people had to
8:41have positive Illusions about the future
8:43and that that was the fundamental way
8:45that people staved off Despair and
8:47bolstered their self-esteem but I don't
8:50think I don't
8:52think we need to separate out the
8:55distinction between fantasy and
8:57delusion you do have a fantasy about the
9:00future you have to because like you said
9:02it's not structured so you have to you
9:04have to provisionally map the future
9:07that's what a plan is what a strategy is
9:10right but that doesn't make it a
9:12delusion like it becomes a delusion when
9:15the map Bears no relationship to the
9:17underlying territory so if you have a
9:19strategy for the future you know maybe
9:21let's say that your strategy for the
9:23future just for the sake of argument is
9:25that you have 5 million YouTube
9:27subscribers in 3 years well well you
9:30have no
9:32evidence of the strict sort that that's
9:35how it's going to be because Anything
9:37could happen between now and 3 years
9:39from now let's say
9:41but
9:43you there's no reason to call that a
9:46delusion it's a it's one it's one
9:50hypothetically possible path of
9:52potential and then you can make the
9:54sacrifices necessary to bring that about
9:57so even though it's a fantasy because it
9:59something that isn't there it's not a
10:01delusion it's a delusion when you're
10:05ignoring elements of your own experience
10:08that would inform your fantasy more
10:10effectively you're ignoring them so that
10:12you can live in a positive
10:14representation of the future without
10:16having to pay the appropriate price for
10:18it one of my favorite ideas I learned
10:20over the last couple of years is the
10:22inner Citadel from isai bin do you know
10:24this MH so isai bin says when the
10:28natural Road toward human fulfillment is
10:30blocked human beings Retreat into
10:32themselves become involved in themselves
10:34and try to create inwardly that world
10:36which some evil Fate has denied them
10:38externally that's a delusion often if
10:40you cannot obtain from the world that
10:42which you really desire you must teach
10:44yourself not to want it if you cannot
10:46get what you want you must teach
10:48yourself to want what you can get this
10:51is a very frequent form of spiritual
10:52retreat in depth into a kind of inner
10:54Citadel in which you lock yourself up
10:56against all of the fearful ills of the
10:58world mutual friend Henderson explained
11:00it in a simpler way if your leg is
11:01wounded you can try to treat the leg MH
11:03and if you can't then you cut the leg
11:06off and announce that the desire for
11:08legs is misguided and must be subdued
11:10and I think that we see this everywhere
11:12well okay so you so imagine that you lay
11:15out a plan and it meets with an
11:17impediment and it knocks the slots out
11:20from underneath the plan okay now you
11:22Retreat okay now you have an option when
11:24you're retreating and one option is to
11:26construct a world in fantasy where
11:28you're taking revenge on those who
11:30wronged you and getting what you want
11:32that's that's a pathway to Madness so
11:34often people who develop serious
11:36delusions do develop um what would you
11:40call them their their compensatory
11:42fantasies and then they start to dwell
11:44in them and often for hundreds of hours
11:47so the the kids again who shot up the
11:49Coline high school they dwelt in a
11:52fantasy world for hundreds of hours
11:54before they undertook their Dreadful
11:56actions right but you can also flip back
11:59back into yourself let's say and you can
12:02this is like this is like confession and
12:04atonement it's the proper way to think
12:06about it is you can think about what it
12:09is that you did wrong or insufficiently
12:13that led to the collapse of your plan
12:16right so that's the first investigation
12:18I made some sacrifices I attempted to
12:20bring about a particular form of the
12:22future it didn't happen okay why well
12:25the world is set against me and the
12:27cosmos is evil and there's no God and
12:29I'm bitter and cynical that's one
12:31potential explanation right poor me
12:34right and and I'm not trying to be
12:35flippant about this because sometimes
12:37people's dreams are quite realistic and
12:39they still fail catastrophically you
12:41know it can be brutal you know maybe you
12:43did make a lot of good decisions and you
12:44suddenly got ill or someone in your
12:46family did and everything went to hell
12:48on you it doesn't have to be because
12:50you've done something cardinally foolish
12:53that you fail you know it's built into
12:55the structure of the world but doesn't
12:57matter you can also Retreat into and you
12:59can say something like all right I need
13:01to retool my conception of strategy but
13:06also potentially my conception of goal
13:09you know maybe I'm looking in the wrong
13:10place maybe I have to look somewhere
13:11else and you can open yourself up to a
13:14revelation so there's a gospel statement
13:16that's very relevant to this so Christ
13:18tells his followers that if they knock
13:20the door will open if they ask they'll
13:22receive and if they seek they'll find
13:25and so it sounds like it sounds magical
13:28it sounds like like the sort of thing
13:30that the new atheists would have a field
13:31day with but that isn't that's not an
13:35wise interpretation of that saying the
13:38proper interpretation is something more
13:40like a recognition of the way thought
13:43works so imagine your plans didn't work
13:45out okay now you sit down and you say to
13:48yourself I'd like to
13:52know even if the world was conspiring
13:54against me and my failure was 95% % the
13:59fault of external occurrences and other
14:02people what did I do that wasn't as good
14:05as it could have been and where did I
14:07fail to look so that the probability of
14:10my failure was higher now now to ask
14:14that question you have to want the
14:16answer that's that's what it means to
14:18knock or to ask or to seek this this is
14:20no joke it's like you have to want to
14:22know and it's a very painful thing to do
14:24because especially if you had given it
14:27you're all to the degree you are
14:31able and you have reason to be
14:33bitter you're going to be searching for
14:36the errors that you still made and
14:38discovering your own errors is always
14:40extremely painful right especially if
14:42they're errors that you're in love with
14:44and so you have to be willing to strip
14:46yourself down that's what humility means
14:49fundamentally and then but the advantage
14:52is this is why it's so useful to listen
14:54to people you might find out where
14:56you're
14:57stupid and then you could start stop
14:59being stupid and so one of the reasons
15:01you confess your sins let's say is
15:03because you want to discover where
15:06you're insufficient now it's painful you
15:09know it's painful to encounter an
15:11impediment in the form of someone else's
15:13opinion that might show you where you're
15:15blind and ignorant or willfully blind
15:18even but the advantage to that is you
15:20can rectify the error and then as you
15:22move forward you're stronger you know
15:24one of the things I taught my kids and I
15:26hope Le at least somewhat successfully
15:28was that
15:30you should always ask a stupid question
15:33and and that doesn't mean the sort of
15:35question that someone who wasn't paying
15:36attention would
15:38ask if you're listening to
15:41someone and you don't understand what
15:43they're saying and you reveal that
15:47you're revealing your ignorance you know
15:49and maybe you're in a room full of
15:50people and you think you're the only
15:51person stupid enough to not get it which
15:53is very rarely the case by the way the
15:55thing is though if you if you reveal
15:57that ignorance to yourself and to the
15:59other person they can Rectify it and if
16:02you do that a thousand times you're not
16:04ignorant anymore and and this is a real
16:06Pathway to success too you see it you do
16:08this because you ask real questions in
16:10your podcast and Rogan does this okay
16:12Rogan's always trying to be a little
16:14smarter than he already is and then that
16:17works iterated like if you ask a
16:19thousand dumb questions and you listen
16:21to the answer then you know a thousand
16:23things some of them deep that you didn't
16:25know before so that's the that's the
16:28advantage to searching your soul let's
16:31say for the for unrequited sins and
16:34attempting to atone that's not a
16:36delusion right it's an attempt to set
16:38yourself right it's the opposite of a
16:40delusion even though there can be a
16:41Fantastical element to it yeah the uh
16:45conversation around people who try their
16:47best do as many things right as they
16:50could and yet still fall short because
16:52the world is random and and unfortunate
16:54things happen happiness as far as I can
16:57see it sits in the gap between
16:59your expectations and
17:01reality but the problem here is that
17:03people who have high standards often end
17:06up feeling a lack right how can people
17:11who strive like this avoid feeling
17:15despondent at falling short of their own
17:17high standards I've heard you talk about
17:19the Statue of David saying something
17:21like you are not all that you could be
17:24yeah and as soon as you posit an ideal
17:26you begin to compare yourself to that
17:27ideal so well part that's a good
17:30question I mean um the ultimate ideal is
17:34also the ultimate judge because the
17:36ultimate ideal is is something against
17:39which you fall far short and that might
17:42be so painful that you can barely stand
17:45it but then what you do is you you you
17:48two things I suppose is you lower the
17:50ideal and you raise your estimation of
17:53your Poss of your potential and what do
17:55I mean by lower the ideal well if you're
17:58you're comparing yourself to someone or
18:01even to a future self and the Gap is so
18:04painful that it paralyzes you then
18:08you've created a dragon that you don't
18:10have the tools to master and so what you
18:12have to do is you have to scale the
18:14dragon down to size and you want to
18:16scale the dragon down to size until it's
18:18a size that you are willing to move
18:23toward however small that is now you
18:26know if you're here and you're deal is
18:29here and that Gap is unbearable then you
18:32reduce the Gap and you reduce the Gap
18:34and you're going to have to do that
18:35anyways because you're not going to move
18:36from where you are to perfect in one
18:38Fell Swoop right there's going to be
18:40incremental steps so you have to fill in
18:43that that hierarchy of
18:45progression
18:47with with a high enough resolution
18:50representation so that you can start to
18:52move forward and and then you should be
18:54butress there's another gospel comment
18:56that's very interesting it has to do
18:58it's called the Matthew principle and
18:59the Matthew principle is to those who
19:02have everything more will be given and
19:04from those who have nothing everything
19:05will be taken now it's brutal because it
19:08implies that reality works like this
19:11when you're moving up you go like this
19:13right and that's pretty nice that's a
19:15lot better than this but when you're
19:17going down you go like that right it's
19:19like downhill downhill Cliff okay so you
19:23want to avoid the downhill path well if
19:26the uphill path is like this which is
19:28like exponential let's say or geometric
19:31then what that means is
19:33that it doesn't matter how big the first
19:37steps you take uphill are even if
19:39they're trivial even if they're shameful
19:42in their in their size because you're so
19:45useless that if you're if you're
19:49disciplined in that you'll speed up
19:52extraordinarily rapidly and so that's
19:54the good news you might say is that you
19:57can take very small step STS even ones
19:59that might be shameful in their size and
20:01you have to admit that to yourself but
20:04once you get the ball rolling it doesn't
20:06roll in a linear fashion it rolls in a
20:08geometric fashion and this is a really
20:10good thing to know because it can take
20:12the sting out of the realization of your
20:14own stupidity it's like yeah you know
20:18everybody has their weak sides let's say
20:22things they're embarrassed about when I
20:23first started going to the gym I was
20:26like how old was I 198 5 23 and I think
20:31I weighed 135 lbs and I was F 6'1 very
20:35very thin a TW right 27 inch waist
20:38something like that I smoked like mad
20:40and I drank too much like I wasn't in
20:42good shape the
20:44first the first attempts forward I took
20:47in the gym I went to this swim sze class
20:50Jesus it was me and this like really fat
20:53guy young guy probably not in any worse
20:56shape than me and like seven old women
21:00over 70 and they could outswim me like
21:03it was pretty damn humiliating and so I
21:05did a semester of that and got myself in
21:07somewhat better shape and then I started
21:09to go to the gym to work out to lift
21:12weights and that was also rough because
21:15you know I'd be underneath the bloody
21:16bench press trying to lift 75 lbs off
21:20the off the rests and you know some
21:22muscle-headed bastard would come over
21:24and tell me how to do it and it's like
21:27yeah thank you but you know it's
21:28embarrassing and lots of times people
21:30won't do things like go to the gym
21:32because they're so embarrassed about how
21:33they look or what sort of shape they're
21:34in and it's a pain to start at the
21:37bottom
21:38but you start at the bottom where you're
21:40weak and if you want to rectify what's
21:44weak you have to accept the fact that
21:46you're at the bottom and that the first
21:47steps are going to be painful you know I
21:50it took me about 3 years but I stopped
21:53smoking and then I stopped drinking and
21:56I gained 40 lbs of in like 3 and a half
21:59years something like that I basically
22:01had to stop doing that cuz I had to eat
22:03like six times a day it was crazy but I
22:06got a lot more physically confident and
22:09a lot
22:10more coordinated cuz working out with
22:13dumbbells makes you coordinated right
22:15because it it exercises all the small
22:16ligaments and the tendons and so my
22:19lower body in particular got a lot more
22:20coordinated then I could dance so that
22:22was better when I was going out dancing
22:24because I did a lot of that in graduate
22:25school and but the point of all this is
22:28if you're going to rectify your
22:29weaknesses you have to admit your
22:33insufficiency to your own shame now if
22:36the gap between you and your ideal is so
22:38great that it paralyzes you you shrink
22:40that right we'll get back to talking to
22:41Jordan in one minute but first I need to
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23:42checkout one of the things I've been
23:44talking about in the live shows is your
23:46comparison group is incorrect the fact
23:49that you know we have the opportunity to
23:51sit down and listen to anybody on the
23:53planet right the best Minds the best
23:56athletes the best thinkers the most
24:00articulate that are alive right now or
24:03listen to the people that have died that
24:04were around when video cameras existed
24:06and you can compare yourself to that
24:08group yeah but that's not your
24:10comparison group if you have the impetus
24:13to sit down and listen to me and you
24:16waffle on for three hours about these
24:20deep topics these interesting ideas you
24:22are so already selected out of the
24:26normal group you're already already
24:28asking yourself questions that almost
24:31nobody almost nobody else is right but
24:33because your comparison group of people
24:35that are unbelievably High performing I
24:37remember before I started my podcast I'd
24:38listen to to you or to Sam or to Joe and
24:43I'd think God that recall is is amazing
24:46it's so it's like that they they've just
24:48got this identic memory and everything
24:50that they've ever read is able to come
24:51to the surface and they're able to say
24:53it in this way that's completely
24:54seamless and all the rest of it you go
24:56okay well are you really person that's
24:58never recorded a podcast before going to
25:00compare yourself to Joe Rogan man that's
25:03recorded a thousand and spent 10,000
25:05hours on stage and done all of this UFC
25:07commentary and done all of this stuff in
25:08terms of TV is that really who you're
25:10going to compare yourself to and it's
25:12unfair and the problem that I see is
25:15people who have big dreams for
25:16themselves and want to do great things
25:19they like to set their sights High yeah
25:21and yet they feel despondent In the
25:24comparison so I think well there's a
25:26pride in that too e like can be I want
25:29to be well or that's who I should be
25:31comparing myself to right that's the
25:34pride and the pride is something like I
25:36should be that or even I could be that
25:38it's like well maybe you could but
25:40you're certainly not going to do it as
25:41you already pointed out without the
25:43apprenticeship right so you could say
25:45that the despondency is actually is is
25:48in proportion to the to the false Pride
25:52now I wrote a chapter in I think my
25:54first book which was compare yourself to
25:56who you are today not to who someone
25:58else is it's sorry I I mangled out to
26:01some degree but you get the point the
26:03proper comparison group for you is you
26:07yesterday because you can make first of
26:10all you're the you're your you're the
26:12only control group that's appropriate to
26:15you because you have a certain set of
26:18talents and possibilities and
26:21limitations and tragedies that are truly
26:24unique to you and so you might be
26:28comparing yourself to someone else on
26:29some Dimension but it's not a reasonable
26:31comparison because you don't know what
26:33talents they were blessed with and you
26:35also don't know what opportunities they
26:37had that you didn't Etc it's just not a
26:39reasonable comparison it's a lot better
26:42to think about who you were and then to
26:44think well could you be somewhat better
26:47in some Dimension and the the positive
26:50thing about that is the answer is almost
26:51always yes now you can Orient that
26:54transformation towards some Stellar
26:57Target and that a reasonable thing to do
27:00but that doesn't exactly mean that you
27:03should compare yourself to that Target
27:06aiming at something and comparing
27:07yourself to it are not exactly the same
27:10thing plus your bloody comparison is
27:12also a delusion you know that's another
27:14thing that you have to understand is
27:15that you look at the person you're
27:17jealous of and really what you're doing
27:20is you're you're looking through a very
27:22narrow aperture at a very thin slice of
27:25their life you're looking at the thin
27:28slice of their life that's turning out
27:30the best but you're also looking at a
27:32thin slice of their life that's marketed
27:35to be the best right and you have no
27:37idea what the horror of that person's
27:40life might be in its totality and you
27:43have no idea if like if the deal was say
27:47you wanted to
27:48be Russell Brand there's a good example
27:52you want it to be Russell Brand you want
27:53it to be as charismatic and as famous as
27:56he is well your real
27:59wish is that you get to have everything
28:01Russell Brand has but none of his
28:03problems well come on I mean that's just
28:07it's just it's no wonder that a vision
28:09like that would make you despondent
28:11because it's it's naive it's resentful
28:14it's jealous it's bitter and it's
28:17unreasonable you have to take the good
28:19with the bad you have to take the bad
28:21with the good and people very rarely
28:24think about that when they're thinking
28:25about you know the famous people they
28:27think they'd like like to be there was a
28:29recent interview with Elon Musk where he
28:32said something my mind is a storm I
28:35don't think most people would want to be
28:38me right they may think they would want
28:40to be me but they don't they don't know
28:43they don't understand what do you think
28:46of that elon's someone that people
28:47probably look up to and admire and
28:49aspire to be one of the downsides to
28:53high level genius is you might describe
28:56it as hypermania
28:59so here's a simple test that people can
29:02do so this is a test of something called
29:05verbal fluency and verbal fluency is
29:07associated with creativity and so a ver
29:10here's a simple verb verbal fluency test
29:12write down as many four-letter words as
29:15you can in three minutes that begin with
29:17t okay that's that's pretty constrained
29:20four letters and T or or write down as
29:22many words as you can in three minutes
29:24to begin with S that's less constrained
29:27all right so
29:28there's quite a powerful correlation
29:31between the sheer number of words that
29:33you produce and your lifetime creative
29:35achievement right especially in the
29:38artistic and verbal
29:40domains that's different than vocabulary
29:42vocabulary is how many words you
29:44understand fluency is how many words you
29:47can produce in a given Dey of those
29:49words yeah well people vary to a degree
29:52that you can hardly imagine so some
29:54people if you get them to do the
29:56four-letter test in 3 minutes they'll
29:58write down like 12 words and some will
30:00write down
30:02150 and the ones who are writing down
30:05150 their minds are going at a hypomanic
30:09rate they're just thinking five times as
30:13fast yeah without any remission
30:17whatsoever and you know when that gets
30:19completely out of control you have manic
30:22you have someone who's Manic and there's
30:24nothing fun about manic that's where the
30:26word maniac comes from from and someone
30:28whose manic has a thousand different
30:30plans Each of which are one sentence
30:32long that they're hyper enthusiastic
30:34about they'll spend every scent of their
30:36money pursuing them and things just go
30:39immediately to hell and so that's the
30:42that's the outer limit of pathology on
30:44the creative front and someone like musk
30:47who's clearly a genius that's what he's
30:49contending with in his internal
30:50landscape now I'm not saying that he's
30:52manic because I see no signs of that but
30:54someone that creative is on that edge or
30:57you see someone like Ben Shapiro I mean
30:59it's very interesting to talk to Ben
31:01because and Russell Brand is the same
31:05way Shapiro speaks I think more rapidly
31:08than anyone I ever met but if you're
31:10with him you see very clearly that he's
31:11probably thinking five times that fast
31:14and that's a lot and when I was writing
31:16maps of meaning which was my first book
31:18I had a very difficult time shutting off
31:20my mind I was obsessed with that book
31:22and so I was writing about three hours a
31:24day and then I was thinking about the
31:26material like for 12
31:29hours as and the thoughts came
31:33as way faster than thinking they
31:35probably came about as fast as I can
31:37read I can read about 12200 words a
31:40minute if the material isn't
31:41overwhelmingly dense and so it was just
31:45nonstop thought for like 16 hours a day
31:48that's part of the reason I started
31:50lifting weights because if I was lifting
31:53heavy enough think 12200 words a minute
31:55while I've got 100 pound on my back it
31:56was enough it was enough to shut it down
31:59and it was also one of the reasons that
32:01I drank because that was another thing
32:03that would shut it off yeah well I I
32:05think the price that people pay to be
32:08the person that you admire is just such
32:10an interesting frame to look at someone
32:12like Elon Musk my mind is a storm I
32:15don't think most people would want to be
32:18me the price that you would have to pay
32:20in order to be me is not one that you
32:21would but you're one of the richest men
32:23on the planet and you get to you know
32:24dance on stage and and release cars that
32:27bu proof and put rockets in space and
32:30stuff well yeah but what about all of
32:33the baggage what's the price what's well
32:34he also he also appears to me to be
32:36hyper conscientious and I know people
32:38who've worked with him like musk isn't
32:42just a creative genius he's also an
32:44extremely conscientious engineer which
32:46and really conscientious Engineers they
32:49have very interesting Minds I like
32:50talking to Engineers because my
32:52brother-in-law is a great engineer and
32:54when when he understands something Jim
32:56when he understands something thing he
32:59understands how to build it out of atoms
33:01right like he understands it at every
33:03single level and musk appears to me to
33:06be someone who's this rare combination
33:09of hyper creative but also hyper
33:11conscientious and I know that he works
33:13all the time yeah does that sort of uh
33:16hypertrophied executive function help to
33:18Wrangle some of the diffuse Creative
33:20Energy oh we're going to put it into
33:22this one thing at least for a while and
33:23then we'll move on to another thing yes
33:25yes definitely definitely you Eric
33:28Weinstein's a good example of someone I
33:31hope Eric isn't annoyed by this but Eric
33:33is unbelievably creative but he's not
33:34particularly conscientious and so his
33:38and and I think he found an occupation
33:39where that works extremely well because
33:41he's he I don't know if he's still doing
33:43this but he worked with Peter teal for
33:45quite a long time as his idea man right
33:48and Eric's an extremely interesting
33:50person musk is hyper creative and as far
33:54as I can tell hyper conscientious and
33:56the conscientiousness does Focus you
33:58know it it and and that lots of people
34:02who are creative aren't conscientious
34:03well it's rare like if you're one in the
34:05there's no correlation between
34:07creativity and
34:08conscientiousness okay so if you're one
34:11in a thousand if you're the most
34:13creative person in a thousand and you're
34:15the most conscientious person in a
34:16thousand you're one person in a million
34:19and musk is probably more like one
34:21person in a 100 million right something
34:24like that maybe more but or maybe a
34:27billion right
34:29maybe yeah it's interesting to consider
34:32the changes that happen to people as
34:34well as they as that their platforms as
34:36the scrutiny around them continues to
34:39increase obviously this has been a
34:41journey for you over the last you know
34:43nearly approaching 10 years now of was
34:46it 2006 was that pH c16 2016 2016 yeah
34:50sorry um how have you found Fame change
34:55you what's been impacted or changed due
34:58to the the scrutiny and the surveillance
35:01and the Adoration and the
35:06criticism well the first thing that
35:08changed I think was that I saw misery on
35:11a scale that I hadn't really seen it
35:13before you know I had worked as a
35:15clinician for a long time and i' worked
35:18with say 20 people a week and I was
35:22always in the realm of difficult
35:25existential problems wrestling
35:28with my clients's problems alongside of
35:30them and I liked that a lot and then I
35:32had my research and I had my family and
35:35various business interests and so that
35:38misery in some ways was contained and
35:40boxed in and I had a lot of structure
35:43around that to be able to function
35:47despite the fact that you know I was
35:49neck deep in 20 people's serious
35:52problems which I really like by the way
35:55when when I started speaking on a larger
35:59scale and meeting more and more
36:03people this scale of demoralization
36:06really hit me I didn't know that I
36:09didn't know how deep the demoralization
36:11in our culture had become and I think
36:13that was especially obvious to me at
36:15that point among young men now it looks
36:19like this is Jonathan Height's research
36:21is indicating this that possibly young
36:23women are even in worse shape but for
36:26whatever reason most most of the people
36:28I was meeting at least to begin with
36:29were young men I think it was probably
36:31because most of them far more people on
36:33YouTube are young men and
36:37so the it was shocking and brutal to see
36:43how much
36:45demoralization
36:47how widely spread the demoralization in
36:50our culture
36:51was other than that and that that was a
36:53real shock and it it was very hard on me
36:55I would say um
36:58everything else about it has been at
37:01minimum ridiculously
37:04interesting I have an unbelievable
37:07wealth of opportunity I'd be a fool to
37:09be anything but abjectly grateful I mean
37:12the misery that I saw was a shock and it
37:14hurt me and it it was part of what made
37:16how did that how did that impact you did
37:17it change the way that you see the world
37:19at
37:26all it made me understand more deeply
37:29how important it was to offer people an
37:33encouraging
37:34word I could see that so many people
37:37were
37:38dying psychologically or actually for
37:42lack of an encouraging word and so it
37:46made being in the position to provide
37:50that much
37:52more necessary mean part of the reason
37:55that Tammy and I too are const
37:58LLY is because it seems to be good it
38:02seems to be a good thing you know we've
38:05even seen changes in the audience so
38:08five years ago six years ago when we did
38:11our first tour a lot of the people who
38:14came to the talks were in pretty rough
38:16shape there were more men than there are
38:18now like the proportion of men to women
38:20was higher and the men were generally
38:23there alone and they were a lot of them
38:24were looking pretty ragged around the
38:26edges and now five years later half the
38:30audience comes in suits like it's as if
38:33they're dressed for a wedding most of
38:35the guys are there with some woman um
38:39the the audience members are doing much
38:42better and the lecture events are
38:45extremely positive you know if you
38:47looked at my life from the outside you'd
38:49think that I was in a constant storm of
38:51you know aggravated controversy but all
38:54of that virtually all of that is virtual
38:57it's just in the online world now it
38:59touches the actual World from time to
39:02time because I am being pursued by my
39:06regulatory College inario yeah yeah yeah
39:09which is you know mostly just an
39:11annoyance and a Preposterous annoyance a
39:14Preposterous expensive and timec
39:16consuming annoyance but apart from
39:19that everything that's happened around
39:22me has
39:23been positive H that's a strange thing
39:27too
39:28positive at such an intensity that even
39:30that is
39:31daunting you know you'd
39:34think it's hard to imagine that you
39:36could be in a situation where things are
39:38so positive that you can barely stand it
39:40but but I am in that situation and it's
39:43quite something to contend with I I was
39:47fortunate I suppose to some degree that
39:49it didn't happen to me till I was old CU
39:51I've never really I've never really got
39:53accustomed to it I've had a thought
39:56about this observing what's happened to
39:58you and you know the Weinstein are a
40:00good example of this too we often hear
40:03the Perils of getting Fame too young the
40:05McCoy Culkin of the world the Britney
40:07Spears of the world you know uh
40:09individuals who don't have any sense of
40:11identity being thrust into a
40:14non-representative experience of the
40:16world and they're completely
40:18unmowed but I think that there's an
40:20equally interesting question to ask okay
40:22and what happens if you think you know
40:25who you are if you've spent de decades
40:27five decades six Decades of your life
40:30understanding your place your status the
40:32trajectory that you're on and then out
40:34of nowhere you get ripped away from all
40:38of the areas of reference all of the way
40:41markers that you thought you knew and
40:42now you're just floating in the air I
40:44imagine that could be even more
40:46disquieting in some ways
40:50well when everything blew up around me
40:52to begin with it was stressful I would
40:55say because my job was on the light my
40:57university job and I never thought that
40:59would happen I
41:00mean my when I worked at Harvard Anna at
41:04the University of
41:05Toronto that was all positive like I
41:08really liked working with my graduate
41:09students I had at least cordial
41:11relationships with my with my fellow
41:15faculty members at Harvard they were
41:17more than cordial at the University of
41:19Toronto most of the faculty members that
41:21I started to develop friendships with
41:24were also those who ended up moving away
41:27and so and they were often people who
41:29got offers from other places and you
41:31know they they would disappear and so a
41:33lot of the friends I developed at the
41:35University of Toronto went elsewhere and
41:37so I didn't get as tightly tied
41:40in with regards to Friendship networks
41:43among my peers as I had at Harvard for
41:45example but I had great relationships
41:47with undergraduates and with my graduate
41:49students that was plenty like I loved
41:51working with my graduate students and so
41:52it wasn't like I was pining and alone
41:54not at all and I had a good network of
41:56friends and
41:58um and so then that was threatened and
42:02really disappeared in
42:042016 um and my clinical practice was
42:07threatened and so that was
42:10unsettling I think there were things
42:13that continued though even when I was
42:16teaching as a university Professor the
42:18way I taught
42:20wasn't
42:21typical the things I taught weren't
42:24typical I thought for decades you know
42:26eventually someone's going to find out
42:28what I'm teaching and and you know
42:30there's going to be trouble I couldn't
42:32believe I was allowed
42:34encouraged to teach what I was teaching
42:38um but you know the universities and
42:40this was particularly true of Harvard in
42:42the
42:4490s that's how they were structured what
42:47was so rebellious about what what you
42:49were
42:51teaching well there wasn't really
42:53anybody who was concentrating on the
42:55Nexus between say architect
42:57ideas archetypal and religious ideas in
43:00Neuroscience so that wasn't a thing I
43:04mean there was a few people Yak panp was
43:06one of them who a lot of the researchers
43:09who were interested in the Neuroscience
43:11of emotion became interested in deep
43:13narrative because they started to
43:16understand that our emotional life is a
43:19story that's a good way of thinking
43:21about it and that we're guided you know
43:24we're Guided by our emotional instincts
43:26and what are emotional instincts do is
43:28put us into certain stories that's what
43:30it means to be in love for example is
43:32that you're in a love story and it's not
43:35it's not uh a particular balance of
43:37oxytocin and endorphins that you are
43:39aware of it's not broken down to its
43:41constituent Parts no definitely not part
43:42of a narrative that you tell yourself
43:44about what this means and how this feels
43:45right right well and it's interesting
43:47that the Instinct manifests itself as a
43:49story and so I was very interested in
43:52narrative and story and I and also see
43:57no psychologist study Carl Yung like
44:00literally virtually none really now oh
44:03yeah yeah oh definitely not I mean
44:08psychology psychology really developed
44:10in some ways as the materialist
44:12antithesis to
44:14psychoanalysis so Freud and Yung and
44:17even Adler to some degree they were off
44:20limits for
44:22for scientifically trained behavioral
44:25psychologists and that's what I was and
44:27am like I trained at Migel there were no
44:30courses in psychoanalytic theory at Mill
44:32I read Freud and Yung completely on my
44:35own uh flying in the face of the advice
44:38that I was getting even from my
44:40well-meaning graduate supervisor who was
44:42a great guy and who never got in my way
44:44in the least quite the contrary but I
44:47was warned for example when I went on
44:49the job market not to talk about the
44:52things that I was truly interested in
44:55and I ignored that by the way and what
44:57that meant was some places that I went
44:59to apply for a job didn't want me but
45:02then Harvard did so that worked out
45:04quite nicely you know and that's one of
45:07the advantages too also of being true to
45:10your own vision is that you won't get
45:13what you don't want see I didn't want to
45:15go work somewhere where they wouldn't
45:18want me I wanted to go work somewhere
45:21where they wanted me so my strategy was
45:23well this is who I am and if you don't
45:26want me you know that's a drag because
45:28I'm looking for a job but by the same
45:30token I'm not going to pretend to be
45:32someone other than who I am so I can
45:35work here what a stupid way of starting
45:37your career well that goes back to the
45:38truth right telling the truth what are
45:40you going to if you tell a sufficiently
45:43seductive lie what is the best that you
45:45can hope for right the person that
45:47you're telling the lie to falls in love
45:49with a projection right right absolutely
45:51well when I applied to graduate school I
45:53wrote a crazy admissions letter and I
45:56basically out who I was flaws and all
45:59and what I was interested in and two
46:03people three people bit and the one that
46:08I liked best partly because he was at
46:10Mill and I wanted to be in Montreal was
46:12my graduate supervisor Robert Peele and
46:15he knew what he was getting and we had a
46:18great time I still work with him like I
46:20had one of the best relationships with
46:22Bob that I've ever had with anyone in my
46:24life and it's lasted four decades and it
46:26was because
46:27like Bob's a very honest person we were
46:30very different he's very practical he's
46:32a very good administrator managerial
46:34type although he's he's super smart he
46:37had an exhaustive knowledge of the
46:39relevant
46:41research psychology literature and I
46:43came in you know flying on a mat of
46:45psychoanalytic theory and philosophy and
46:48religious ideas very very different
46:50although we shared a real deep interest
46:53in the practicalities of research and he
46:55taught me how to fall in love with the
46:57more scientific end of the research
46:59distribution but the point I'm making is
47:02that he knew he knew what he was getting
47:06right from the beginning and so did I
47:08and that worked like a charm there was
47:10no re reason for any sort of subterfuge
47:13and it turned out that our his talents
47:16and mine dovetailed extremely well so
47:19and we had a blast I loved working with
47:21well like that's why we been working
47:23together for 40 years I traveled all
47:25over North America with because we also
47:28started a business and uh it was great
47:31it was
47:32great the thing is you know if you tell
47:34people who you are and an opportunity
47:37opens up it opens up for you yes not for
47:40this thing you've created this lie this
47:42this story that Douglas Murray told me
47:44about one of his first bosses at an
47:46early newspaper that he worked at I
47:48can't remember the gentleman's
47:50name this guy is a legend within the
47:53industry he's been working for a long
47:54time he's accumulated a number of uh
47:57haters and and fans and toward the back
48:00end of his career as Douglas is starting
48:02his he decides that he wants to release
48:04a West End play about the life of Prince
48:07Charles in rhyming
48:09couplets adventurous as as West End
48:12plays go and obviously there was all of
48:13this scrutiny because he was this very
48:16welln individual within the publishing
48:18world and uh opening night by the
48:21halftime interval there was no one left
48:24in the entire Auditorium including the
48:26cast
48:27and this guy was devastated right and he
48:30was mocked in the press and all the rest
48:32of it apparently Douglas saw him shortly
48:34afterward and asked him kindly he was
48:36like look like what were you thinking
48:40West End play about the life of Prince
48:42Charles and [ __ ] rhyming couplets he
48:45said well Douglas I followed my
48:47instincts and instincts that may
48:49sometimes Lead You Wrong mhm but they're
48:51the only thing that's ever led you right
48:54right right and that stuck with me
48:56because yeah well well there there
48:58there's something very relevant there
48:59too on the instinctual front Okay so
49:04things will beckon to you and call to
49:06you and you'll have intuitions about
49:09which pathway to take and you will in
49:12all likelihood follow those because what
49:14else do you have you have these
49:15orienting
49:17instincts this is another reason why you
49:19don't
49:20lie CU if you lie and you practice lying
49:24you pathologize your instincts and then
49:26your intuitions lead you wrong and so
49:29there's a sin that's laid out in the
49:30gospels it's the sin against the Holy
49:32Ghost and it's unforgivable and people
49:35have been debating for like 2,000 years
49:37about what this particular sin is but
49:40it's something
49:41like the pathologization of the
49:45instincts that Orient you if you
49:47sacrifice your relationship to the truth
49:49you warp your vision and then you can't
49:51see and then one day it'll be dark and
49:54there'll be sharp things in the fall in
49:57front of you and you'll wander right
49:58into them because you've pathologized
50:00your own Vision yeah you don't want to
50:03lie because you you program yourself
50:07falsely and then you automatically see
50:10what isn't there and then of course the
50:12world will slap you in the face
50:13continually and you'll think oh my God
50:15the world's such a pathological place
50:18when the truth of the matter is is that
50:20no you just keep running into things
50:22that you refuse to see and then you
50:25think well the world's made of nothing
50:26but obstacles it's like well you put the
50:29obstacles in your own path and you did
50:32that by developing these complex
50:35self-serving delusions a story that you
50:38tell other people about who you are that
50:40isn't true you're trying to lay out a
50:42map that bears no relationship to
50:44reality and you keep wondering why you
50:46wander off the path and into a pit it's
50:48like well how could it be otherwise if
50:51see if you really un this people have
50:55commented to me many times about my
50:57bravery and I I I don't like that I it's
51:01it's it's not
51:03right I'm afraid of different things
51:06than the typical person maybe that's a
51:08good way of thinking about it I'm way
51:10more afraid of the consequences of
51:13saying something that's false or
51:16wandering off the appropriate path than
51:19I am of whatever consequences might come
51:21for saying what I believe and doing what
51:23I believe to be the case I'm way more
51:26afraid of that you
51:28know I've been reading the gospel of St
51:31Matthew I'm I'm writing a book at the
51:33moment called we who wrestle with God
51:35and one of the things Christ says to
51:39people continually is to not damage
51:42their vision is to not
51:45put that's the best way of putting it
51:49don't olude your eye you can see what's
51:52in front of you if you're willing to see
51:54it and if you're willing to see it the
51:56terrible OB many of the terrible
51:58obstacles in life you can just walk
52:00around but if you blind yourself
52:03purposefully to follow your own narrow
52:06self-serving delusion you're going to
52:09run into terrible things and terrible
52:11people and the terrible part of your own
52:13soul all the time that's what you should
52:16be afraid of well the best thing that
52:18you can hope for if you do do that is to
52:21fluke success living somebody else's
52:24life right right great wonderful
52:27yeah exactly you get to be you get to be
52:29a successful fraud I remember this
52:33documentary about Ron Jeremy I think
52:35they called him the Hedgehog he was this
52:37famous porn star I've seen a music video
52:39with him in yeah yeah okay not one of
52:41the world's most attractive people
52:42physically and you know he lived in this
52:45very interesting world he lived in this
52:47world he was stopped constantly on the
52:49street by people who thought Ron Jeremy
52:51was a
52:52hero right so he was in hell because
52:56the people who admired him were the
52:58people who
53:00admired he was surrounded by the people
53:02who thought that he was an avatar of of
53:05success right and so he got what he
53:07wanted I
53:09suppose he had easy access to easy women
53:12in other news this episode is brought to
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54:15wisdom and wisdom at checkout well let
54:19me give you let me give you this this is
54:20why I think the beginning of the incel
54:24movement and the black pill movement was
54:26born out of pick a partistry the origin
54:29if you trace it back using internet
54:30history of the incel blackpill uh
54:34ideology was a I think it a subreddit or
54:37a website called Pua hate pickup artist
54:40hate and what it was was a group of men
54:44who had been through the pipeline of
54:46pickup Artistry yeah and come out the
54:48other side with a very jaded and even
54:51more jaded view of the world even more
54:53jaded yes and I'll tell you why so what
54:56happened Happ s if a guy learns old
54:58school mid2 norts pickup
55:02Artistry is you realize that there is a
55:05particular set of actions a script that
55:08you can run which makes it more likely
55:11that a woman is going to go to bed with
55:12you right right right right but what you
55:14realize when you do that as you learn
55:17how to neg and do Kino escalation and
55:20tell them that story about the [ __ ]
55:21fight outside or whatever your script is
55:23that you're running you then begin to
55:25see just how far away that person is
55:30from the person that you actually show
55:31up as right who you are and this
55:35extravagant Persona that you need to
55:37convolute into existence in order to get
55:39this woman into bed makes you feel worse
55:43even F the gap between where you are and
55:46what you have to do in order to achieve
55:47the thing that you want now what you
55:48don't realize is that there are a
55:50million other ways that you could become
55:52sufficiently Charming to get this person
55:53to like you this is by actually doing it
55:56example this is just one that happens to
55:58be robust and easy enough to write down
56:02in a book and easy enough for it's
56:04basically a form of scripted
56:06psychopathy so what a psychopath does is
56:09feain competence right so most
56:12psychopaths are very emotionally stable
56:15and so one of
56:17the early stage markers for competence
56:22is self-possession and calmness and so
56:25if you're not an anxious person you've
56:28got an edge on that already and most
56:30psychopaths are very high in emotional
56:32stability and so they look confident
56:35because confident people tend not to be
56:37that nervous like if you're doing
56:38something you're expert at well you're
56:40not nervous because you know how to do
56:41it okay so the lack of nervousness is a
56:44hint to competence well you can feain
56:47that you can feain competence you can
56:50feain confidence that's what the pickup
56:52artists teach now I would say there's
56:55even some utility and what they do right
56:57because if you're dependent and bitter
57:00and resentful and charmless and
57:04self
57:07destructive and nervous and socially
57:10unskilled the probability that you're
57:12going to be successful with women is
57:14very very low okay so you should be
57:16other than who you are now if you start
57:19putting on this Persona then you could
57:22think about that as a new suit of
57:24clothes and you could learn through
57:26through that how to fill in the gaps
57:28take it until you make it absolutely
57:30absolutely but if you take on that
57:33without doing the effort necessary to
57:35integrate that in a genuine way then all
57:38that's happening is that you're you're
57:40being rewarded for being fake yeah right
57:43and that's part of the problem with that
57:45too is that you're practicing learning
57:47how to manipulate people in a
57:49psychopathic way and if you practice
57:51that of course you're going to become
57:53jaded like there's nothing more jaded
57:55than a psychopath
57:56I mean that's that's the ultimate
57:59extreme of jadedness and if you practice
58:02manipulating especially if the women
58:04happen to be reasonably good women if
58:06you practice manipulating them and
58:08you're successful then you're learning
58:10to be one you're learning to be one
58:13horrible person now you know as your
58:15completely useless unproductive and
58:18undesirable former self you weren't
58:20exactly Stellar to begin with but
58:23substituting psychopathy for that what
58:25sort of like substituting cynicism for
58:27naivity now that's a complex problem I
58:31mean part of the reason that people like
58:32Andrew Tate are so attractive to young
58:35guys is because they do put up
58:39that
58:44confident that false confidence Tate's a
58:48complicated guy because it's not all
58:49false you know real people are
58:51complicated the way that like villains
58:53in in comic books
58:55aren't hates a fighter it's clearly the
58:58case that he's got a certain degree of
58:59physical bravery that's real all
59:03right there's an element of what he says
59:05that's very attractive to bed bedroom
59:09basement dwelling losers because he's at
59:13least there out in the world you know
59:15taken the blows and he's got a fast car
59:17and he's flashy and he's attractive to
59:19women but a lot of what he's done
59:22especially with women doesn't just
59:23border into the psychopathic it crosses
59:26the line and that's not a good model
59:29it's not an optimal model for people who
59:31are trying to progress but it's a
59:33strange thing because just as cynicism
59:35is an improvement over naivity right the
59:38capacity to be dark is an improvement
59:41over the lack of ability to be dark at
59:43all and so Tate is attractive in the way
59:47that the shadow beckons to people who
59:50are undeveloped right because it does
59:52it's like you're you're neurotic and
59:56you're dependent and you're repressed
59:58because you're immature and harmless
1:00:01well one way out of that is to stop
1:00:03being harmless and one of the things you
1:00:04can say about Tate is that he's not
1:00:06harmless right well that's that's a it's
1:00:09a virtue now it's a virtue that has to
1:00:12be bracketed it's like cynicism is a
1:00:15virtue compared to naivity but it's not
1:00:17it's not virtuous in and of itself it's
1:00:20a step on the way and so maybe you can
1:00:24learn how to Fain confidence and you can
1:00:26learn how that works and maybe that's an
1:00:28improvement I had a guy in my clinical
1:00:30practice who got involved with the
1:00:32pickup artist community and he told me
1:00:33taught me a lot about it and one of the
1:00:35exercises that their initiates had to do
1:00:38was to go out and ask 50 women for their
1:00:40phone number in one day and that's a
1:00:42great exercise you know and I'm not
1:00:44exposure therapy approach anxiety
1:00:46absolutely absolutely getting over your
1:00:50fear of rejection right and 50 times
1:00:52they'll do that because you're going to
1:00:53get rejected the vast majority of times
1:00:56likely 50 times although generally that
1:00:58wasn't people's experience you know if
1:01:00if they were even vaguely skilled they'd
1:01:03at least get a false phone number out of
1:01:05the deal but then they could they learn
1:01:07that the rejection wasn't as
1:01:09catastrophic as they thought but more
1:01:10importantly they learned that they could
1:01:12continue moving forward in the face of
1:01:14rejection so the thing that it makes me
1:01:16think about there is intellectual
1:01:19humility and how tightly people hold on
1:01:21to their beliefs that if you believe
1:01:24that you are always is going to be right
1:01:27that there is nothing to learn outside
1:01:28of you and that any kind of admission
1:01:30that you might be wrong is tant amount
1:01:32to destruction it does exactly the same
1:01:34thing you need to and it goes back to uh
1:01:37asking stupid questions being prepared
1:01:39to ask the stupid questions and look not
1:01:42like the most informed person in the
1:01:43room but also importantly nowhere near
1:01:46the most stupid person in the room
1:01:47because you're the one that's asking the
1:01:48question well the stupidest person in
1:01:50the room is the person who doesn't know
1:01:51and won't ask or even worse who doesn't
1:01:54know and won't ask and acts like they
1:01:56know that's not good at all yeah there's
1:01:59a from your see that's part of that idea
1:02:01that you should love your enemy so you
1:02:04might say well why should you do that
1:02:05well your enemy is going to be your
1:02:07harshest
1:02:09critic now it's possible that if you
1:02:11have a very good enemy that he will show
1:02:13you flaws in your character that you
1:02:15didn't know were there and so that's a
1:02:17it's a
1:02:20very it's a very strange way of looking
1:02:22at the world to think that you should
1:02:24welcome an attack you should it and this
1:02:27is but this is right it yeah I'm saying
1:02:30that with all due caution let's
1:02:32say the most the more vicious the
1:02:38attack the more of your potential hidden
1:02:42flaws might be revealed have you found
1:02:44that to be true oh definitely but I've
1:02:47also found
1:02:51that the attacks force you to contend
1:02:54with it to to see if it's there right to
1:02:57to test it I suppose the attacks that
1:03:00have come after me that have been most
1:03:02successful they they're almost always
1:03:04journalists and they're usually British
1:03:06female journalists but not always we
1:03:08produce a a nation of hardhead
1:03:12journalists yeah well and faith in
1:03:14journalists is the lowest in the UK and
1:03:16anywhere in the western world and I can
1:03:18see why you know but there's some
1:03:22Advantage there's some real advantage to
1:03:24facing someone it's a Pharisee problem
1:03:28in in the
1:03:29gospels Christ was always contending
1:03:31with these Pharisees and what the
1:03:34Pharisees were always trying to do was
1:03:36to lay a verbal trap for him so is a
1:03:38Pharisee a person Pharisee was a was a
1:03:41Jewish sect okay and the Pharisees were
1:03:43very legalistic in their interpretation
1:03:46of Mosaic law and so they were sort of
1:03:48they were hypocritical the way they're
1:03:49portrayed in the gospel S as they're
1:03:51hypocritical by the book moralists and
1:03:54part of what and most of their morality
1:03:57was for show they like to pray in public
1:03:59they like to be seen being holy at least
1:04:02that's the criticisms that are levied
1:04:03against them and what they're always
1:04:05trying to do in the gospel accounts is
1:04:07to lay a verbal trap for Christ so that
1:04:10they can expose him as a heretic and
1:04:11kill them right so every single thing
1:04:14they say is a snare of some sort and
1:04:17there's lots of journalists like that
1:04:18Nelly Bulls who wrote an article about
1:04:20me for the New York Times which was a
1:04:23very devastating article in many ways
1:04:26and
1:04:27very Serpentine and and
1:04:30subtle she 3 years
1:04:33later she wrote another article about
1:04:37what it was like to work for the New
1:04:38York Times when she was working there
1:04:40and the tricks that the journalists
1:04:42played including her and she said that
1:04:46the game was to devastate someone else's
1:04:50reputation in the attempt to boost yours
1:04:54right so you could think about it as a
1:04:55game of comparative moral standing so
1:04:58the journalist's trick is to trick you
1:05:00into saying something that will end your
1:05:03career essentially their social status
1:05:05stands on the shoulders of yours AB
1:05:07absolutely absolutely and so now the the
1:05:11advantage to being in a situation like
1:05:13that is that you have to step if you
1:05:15step extremely
1:05:19carefully and you're fortunate then you
1:05:22evade the traps and then the interview
1:05:25tilts hard in your favor yeah and so the
1:05:27most the interviews that have done me
1:05:29the most good in the long run were the
1:05:32two interviews that were most hostile
1:05:35one
1:05:37by channels 4 Griffin Kathy Kathy new
1:05:40Kathy Newman Cathy Griffin and Kathy
1:05:43Kathy at least had a sense of humor
1:05:45another one by Helen Lewis who had no
1:05:47sense of humor at all and doesn't seem
1:05:49to have learned anything at all in the
1:05:50interim but I think that I think that
1:05:52one has 80 million views now twice as
1:05:55many as the Kathy Newman interview like
1:05:57it just keeps racking up views and it
1:05:59was because Helen
1:06:02Lewis she has like 50 tricks or 100
1:06:05tricks Kathy had like four you know and
1:06:08they were pretty blunt and she had a
1:06:10sense of humor about them but Helen
1:06:12Lewis she was just all tricks and lots
1:06:14of them and smart you know and it's
1:06:16quite something to talk to someone who's
1:06:19quite smart and quite educated but all
1:06:22tricks and so but how does it feel
1:06:25looking back on those too they were very
1:06:26formative time it was kind of the
1:06:27inflection point or one of the
1:06:28inflection points I suppose for yourself
1:06:30as well yeah how does it feel looking
1:06:32back on that I remember you said at the
1:06:34time it took you many days to recover
1:06:36from that kind of cantankerous sort of
1:06:38adversarial interview is that does that
1:06:41seem like a different lifetime or is
1:06:42that still very much sort of with you
1:06:44well I'm a lot healthier than I was then
1:06:47so those sorts of things wouldn't have
1:06:49the same effect on me now as they did
1:06:51then because I was Ill it took me a long
1:06:53time to recover from you know serious
1:06:56bout I mean the first time I talked to
1:06:57Sam Harris not that Sam played tricks
1:07:00like I like Sam and we've had very
1:07:02productive
1:07:03conversations I was so ill when the
1:07:05first time I talked to Sam that I could
1:07:07barely sit in my chair talking to Sam
1:07:09Harris makes you ill that's the No No
1:07:12not not at all no no Sam and I have had
1:07:14very productive conversations that was
1:07:16another good example I suppose of the
1:07:18utility of an adversarial conversation
1:07:20yeah you know I mean Sam comes to a
1:07:22conversation like that pretty well armed
1:07:25but it's very helpful because it forces
1:07:29you to look in nooks and crannies that
1:07:32you might not have looked in and to be
1:07:35crystal clear to the degree that that's
1:07:37possible about what you're actually
1:07:38saying the idea of of loving your enemy
1:07:41is something I've been playing with a
1:07:42little bit recently there been I guess
1:07:45my platform's getting to the level now
1:07:46where uh there's a reason for someone to
1:07:49have a bullseye pointed at least
1:07:52remotely in my direction because there's
1:07:54no point in trying to take somebody down
1:07:55that's got nothing that's got no status
1:07:57why would you why would you invest the
1:07:58time your the step that you're going to
1:08:01get in terms of your status standing on
1:08:02their shoulders is so small that no one
1:08:04so it's a backhanded compliment yeah in
1:08:06some ways yeah um but you're right man
1:08:08some of the some of the criticisms that
1:08:10I've got I was reminded by a friend
1:08:12recently about this uh have been some of
1:08:16the best inflection points very
1:08:19uncomfortable and to see it as a gift to
1:08:22think about that thing as a gift it's
1:08:23like I know that you weren't doing this
1:08:25to make me better yeah I know that you
1:08:27weren't doing this to try and to try and
1:08:29benefit me and yet and yet yeah in
1:08:33reflection it's like Alchemy it's like
1:08:34how Rory Sutherland calls it Alchemy
1:08:36taking something that was bad I I had
1:08:38this reflection as well well we we've
1:08:40learned my family's learned like when
1:08:42when a public attack occurs there's a
1:08:45massive opportunity nested in it if you
1:08:48can reorient it's like okay this is bad
1:08:50this is vicious this is not this does
1:08:53not look good and maybe it could take me
1:08:56out take us out is there a way is there
1:08:59a way we can play with this that will
1:09:02not only neutralize it but twist it in
1:09:05the other direction I think the thing we
1:09:07did that was most effective on that side
1:09:09of things was when I was written into
1:09:13Captain America as I spoke to you that
1:09:15day I spoke to you that day that it
1:09:17happened yeah the magical magical super
1:09:21Nazi floating Nazi or whatever yeah yeah
1:09:23yeah well it was shocking right it was
1:09:25it was very shocking and then Olivia
1:09:26wild yeah the that was shocking too yeah
1:09:29yeah there's a Litany of yes yes well
1:09:32and it it became increasingly
1:09:34Preposterous and and the Olivia wild
1:09:36episode was one of the that was so
1:09:38Preposterous that it was almost
1:09:40immediately laugh mercifully that film
1:09:42was so badly made and I'm pretty sure
1:09:44that she'd cast her boyfriend as one of
1:09:46the got rid of someone that was super
1:09:48competent and put somebody in that was
1:09:50pretty incompetent uh and I think that
1:09:51that kind of caused it to flub but yeah
1:09:53man the the the thing I've ended up
1:09:56becoming really good friends with one of
1:09:58my harshest critics it's so strange uh
1:10:01and yet makes complete sense afterward
1:10:04uh you had a how did you end up making
1:10:06friends so I got criticized uh by a pair
1:10:11of podcasters who um do this they they
1:10:15kind of take down or or they have a very
1:10:18critical eye of much of the of the
1:10:20podcasting world and they they did an
1:10:23episode about an episode that I'd done
1:10:25and have a right of reply thing oh yeah
1:10:27uh Sam's been on to do it uh who else
1:10:29has been on to do it I I did it couple
1:10:32of other Constantin kiss being to do and
1:10:34um I I went on and there was a bit of
1:10:37like I listened to their show I think
1:10:39it's a very Illuminating way to see how
1:10:41people that have a different perspective
1:10:42about what's going on in in your world
1:10:44see it and uh I was like yeah I got the
1:10:46opportunity to go on and have a
1:10:48conversation and I did and I found them
1:10:51to both be like way more Charming than I
1:10:53thought that they were going to be and
1:10:55uh I've ended up both Chris and Matt all
1:10:58Matt l so but with Chris like we must
1:11:01speak once a month every couple of weeks
1:11:03we one of us will just ring and we'll
1:11:05catch up about what's been going on in
1:11:06the world and he has a very different
1:11:08sort of worldview to me he lives in a
1:11:09different area of the world he's a a a
1:11:12psychologist studying religion I think
1:11:15and and uh sacred rituals and stuff like
1:11:18that rituals rather than
1:11:20religion and now he points out blind
1:11:23spots that I don't see and that one
1:11:28particular
1:11:29instance was and it was really
1:11:31uncomfortable because this was still
1:11:33this was three years ago or something
1:11:34now maybe and I'm still you super
1:11:36uncomfortable about it and oh my God
1:11:38these people are going to take me down
1:11:39and they're both academics and they're
1:11:40really really well educated and they're
1:11:42going to be smart and they're going to
1:11:42say things that make me look silly and I
1:11:44said things that made me look silly and
1:11:46picked a particular episode where blah
1:11:47blah blah and yet in reflection it's
1:11:51been that one instance and the
1:11:55subsequent rumination about it was one
1:11:58of the biggest inflection points for me
1:12:01going
1:12:02from having blind spots that I hadn't
1:12:04seen to that and I I almost think that
1:12:07the degree of discomfort that I went
1:12:08through was mandatory because had I not
1:12:11felt so much like fear and anxiety and
1:12:14embarrassment about the fact that I'm
1:12:15going to it's going to be out there and
1:12:17there's going to be all this focus and
1:12:18attention in not a nice way and there'll
1:12:20be tweets and all the rest of the
1:12:22stuff that was sufficient uncomfortable
1:12:25to force me to actually genuinely look
1:12:27at the things that I was doing that I
1:12:28was getting wrong and I'm sure that
1:12:30there's a million things I'm still
1:12:31getting wrong but yeah it was it was as
1:12:34much a gift as it could be we'll get
1:12:35back to talking to Jordan in one minute
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1:13:36slod wisdom here's another thing I spoke
1:13:39to David gogins about this last year
1:13:41about how uh I was bullied as a kid and
1:13:44I was quite unpopular in school and I
1:13:45was an only child so I didn't really
1:13:47have many people to back me up you know
1:13:50in the schoolyard or whatever and I for
1:13:54a long time had a chip on my shoulder
1:13:56about the kids that mistreated me in
1:13:57school as you might
1:13:59expect and then I got toward you know
1:14:03maybe a few years ago and I really
1:14:04really started to reflect on it and
1:14:06realized that so many of the things that
1:14:09I valued in myself were the light side
1:14:12of something dark that had been created
1:14:14during that time in school so um my
1:14:19complete preparedness to just spend time
1:14:21on my own means that I don't mind about
1:14:23moving out to a country where I don't
1:14:25know anybody and trying to make this
1:14:26podcast thing work or spending hours and
1:14:29hours working or researching or
1:14:31recording podcasts or doing intros or
1:14:33whatever it is like all of those things
1:14:35um not having a super tight social
1:14:38network as a kid meant that I wasn't
1:14:40beholden to anybody when I grew up that
1:14:43I I didn't feel the need to have as much
1:14:46uh um support as I go along to do stuff
1:14:51now other sides of it haven't been so
1:14:52great because I still seek validation I
1:14:54still a lot of validation because that
1:14:56was something that I was missing as a
1:14:59kid um but yeah realizing not only you
1:15:03probably wouldn't be here if it wasn't
1:15:05for the things that you went through
1:15:07okay there's step one and then step two
1:15:10is and I'm quite grateful for what I've
1:15:13done and then step three would be
1:15:15something like wow I'm proud of myself
1:15:18for having turned something that was
1:15:19negative into something that's positive
1:15:21but then another level above that would
1:15:23be
1:15:25wow so maybe I should be thankful yeah
1:15:28right well we know we were talking
1:15:30earlier in the podcast about what is the
1:15:34appropriate attitude towards the future
1:15:37and I would say well we could put past
1:15:40present and future in the same bin say
1:15:43well one of the things that you want to
1:15:45do is practice gratitude that's one of
1:15:47the primary religious rituals you might
1:15:50say is the practice of gratitude and you
1:15:52might say well my life is so horrible do
1:15:55I have to be grateful for and I would
1:15:57say that's
1:16:00that's for better worse that's still a
1:16:02form of
1:16:03blindness right I mean people can have
1:16:06very very difficult situations can be in
1:16:08very very difficult situations and it's
1:16:11in those difficult situations where the
1:16:13search for gratitude becomes something
1:16:16that is by necessity deeper and more
1:16:18difficult but that doesn't mean it's not
1:16:20appropriate you know and there is there
1:16:23is a very tight association between
1:16:26loving your enemy and being
1:16:28grateful in spite of the terrible things
1:16:31that occur in your life I've been
1:16:32writing about the Book of Job and job is
1:16:35a story of unjust suffering
1:16:39fundamentally God deems job a good man
1:16:42so we have it on God's word that job is
1:16:44actually a good man and then all hell
1:16:45breaks loose partly because God makes a
1:16:47bet with Satan which is you know a hell
1:16:49of a thing to do and says do your worst
1:16:52he's not going to turn on me no matter
1:16:54what you do and so job despite his
1:16:59torment he becomes very ill he loses
1:17:02everything he has his friends he becomes
1:17:05ill in a way that's disfiguring his
1:17:06friends come around and laugh at him and
1:17:08tell him that he's a bad man and that's
1:17:10why all these terrible things have been
1:17:11happening to him and it's brutal and job
1:17:14refuses
1:17:15to lose faith in himself he says look
1:17:19I'm I'm not perfect I'm but as far as
1:17:22men go I've done what I should do
1:17:27and it I'm not being punished in some
1:17:30manner that's obviously related to my
1:17:33sin it's more like the random play
1:17:36of tragic forces in the world I'm not
1:17:40going to lose faith in myself no matter
1:17:42what and I'm also not going to his wife
1:17:46says shake your fist at God curse him
1:17:49and die because things have gone so
1:17:51badly for job she thinks that's all
1:17:52that's left to him and he refuses to do
1:17:54that so he maintains
1:17:57Faith regardless of what's happened to
1:17:59him and that's really the moral of the
1:18:01story of job which is that you are
1:18:04morally obligated to maintain Faith no
1:18:06matter what happens to you and there's a
1:18:08practical side to that so imagine that
1:18:13God and Satan conspire against you
1:18:15there'll be times in your life where it
1:18:16feels like that's happening and then
1:18:19imagine that your reaction to that is to
1:18:21become bitter and resentful and hostile
1:18:24well then whatever hell you're in merely
1:18:28as a consequence of the Confluence of
1:18:30tragic events you have opened a whole
1:18:32other hell underneath it the hell of
1:18:34bitterness and resentment and
1:18:35ingratitude and well and that turns into
1:18:39the desire for Revenge very very quickly
1:18:41you think things are bad just because
1:18:44they're bad you wait till you see how
1:18:46bad they can become if you allow
1:18:49yourself to be corrupted by your unjust
1:18:52suffering right and so it's a and I I I
1:18:56do think that this is the most practical
1:18:59possible advice that can be given to
1:19:01people which is that you are morally
1:19:03required to maintain Faith to aim up and
1:19:07to treat other people the way you would
1:19:09want to be treated no matter what's
1:19:11happened to you you know and that's a
1:19:13hell of a thing to say and you know you
1:19:15might say well that's impossible PE some
1:19:18people have such brutal lives that
1:19:20they're destined to be corrupt but I
1:19:22would say that's not true like I've met
1:19:24many many people particularly in my
1:19:26clinical practice who had lives that
1:19:28were so brutal that you couldn't even
1:19:30listen to them without it like breaking
1:19:32you into pieces brutal brutal childhoods
1:19:36of of a depth of malevolence you can
1:19:39hardly conceptualize who decided despite
1:19:43that that they were going to aim up and
1:19:44they were going to maintain faith in
1:19:46themselves and the world and so it's
1:19:49like that's on the table for people it
1:19:51seems like an odd Paradox that the
1:19:53people who have brought up under lives
1:19:55of the most privileged uh often the ones
1:19:58that have the most complaints about the
1:19:59world and people who have been brought
1:20:01up in deprivation a lot of the time are
1:20:02able to be perfectly in gratitude seems
1:20:05very strange that that that's the way
1:20:08yeah well
1:20:09I
1:20:12having so one of the things I saw at the
1:20:15University I saw the faculty members my
1:20:18peers retreat in the face of the
1:20:21advancement of the administration over
1:20:24like three decades to the point where
1:20:25the universities really became corrupted
1:20:28and it didn't really happen at Harvard
1:20:31when I was there in the 1990s although
1:20:33it was starting to fray around the edges
1:20:35slightly but I really watched it at the
1:20:37University of Toronto in the 20 years I
1:20:39was there the administration kept making
1:20:42demands on us and every time they made a
1:20:45demand we would fold every time 10,000
1:20:49micro Retreats so then the
1:20:50administrators took over the university
1:20:52and then the woke types took over the
1:20:54administr ation and that was that well
1:20:58the reason what I saw my faculty members
1:21:01do the academics that I worked with is
1:21:04that this is how the corruption starts
1:21:06it's like when you're an undergraduate
1:21:08you write down what you think the
1:21:10professor wants to hear to get the grade
1:21:12and then you're a graduate student and
1:21:15you you have to let's say get along with
1:21:17your professors and your supervisor you
1:21:19have to tell them what you think they
1:21:20want to hear so that you can get your
1:21:23PhD and then maybe you are on the
1:21:26academic track and you're an assistant
1:21:28professor there's three levels of being
1:21:29a professor you're not tenured as an
1:21:31assistant so you really can't say what
1:21:33you think or do what you think you
1:21:35should do then because you have to get
1:21:37tenured and then when you're tenured
1:21:39well you're not a full Professor yet and
1:21:41so you don't speak then and back in the
1:21:44back of your mind you have this idea
1:21:46well at some point I'll have enough
1:21:49security so that I'll be able to tell
1:21:52the truth but that's based on this weird
1:21:55idea that the courage to tell the truth
1:21:57is based on
1:21:59security well courage isn't based on
1:22:01security that's a stupid Theory you're
1:22:04not courageous if there's no risk so
1:22:06your notion is you'll be
1:22:09courageous when there's zero risk well
1:22:13obviously that's a contradiction in
1:22:15terms you're only courageous if there's
1:22:17a risk and not only that by the time
1:22:19you've sacrificed your word for illusory
1:22:24sec security for 15 years there's
1:22:27nothing left of you that's true you've
1:22:30already that's gone a long time ago you
1:22:33you probably look back at the former
1:22:34self who was naive and thought that you
1:22:37could say what you think as
1:22:39just well you're bit you're cynical
1:22:41about it you know that person just
1:22:43didn't know how the way didn't know how
1:22:45the world worked and then it's the same
1:22:47thing that you pointed out the idea that
1:22:52you become good because you
1:22:55have material plenty that's a silly idea
1:23:00why would that be the case it's like the
1:23:01same as assuming that all rich people
1:23:03have got taste right there poor people
1:23:06who've got beautifully designed
1:23:08interiors and rich people who've got gy
1:23:12messes right right right right there was
1:23:14yeah well then the poor people are
1:23:15actually
1:23:16rich absolutely uh there's a a report I
1:23:20wanted to bring this to you it's so
1:23:21interesting so recent report was
1:23:23released by The Harvard Graduate School
1:23:25of Education detailing the drivers of
1:23:27anxiety for young adults aged 18 to 25
1:23:3134% reported feelings of loneliness 51%
1:23:35said achievement pressure negatively
1:23:37impacted their mental health 58%
1:23:39reported lacking meaning or purpose in
1:23:41their lives in the last month 50%
1:23:44reported their mental health was
1:23:46negatively influenced by not knowing
1:23:48what to do with my life there has been
1:23:50much examination of the well-being of
1:23:51teens aged 14 to 17 not much has been
1:23:55known about those occupying the critical
1:23:57young adult years and yet young adults
1:24:00report roughly twice the rates of
1:24:02anxiety and depression as teens the
1:24:04young adults are not
1:24:07okay yeah I believe that I saw even with
1:24:10my own kids that the the mo like when I
1:24:13was a
1:24:14kid probably the time between 13 and 15
1:24:17was the most difficult transition but I
1:24:20saw that become older by the time my
1:24:23kids my kids are 30 now basically by the
1:24:26time my kids were young adults I could
1:24:29see that that transition into adulthood
1:24:31was the place where the difficulties
1:24:33were starting to
1:24:36mount I think perversely that the
1:24:40therapeutic world has a fair bit to do
1:24:43with this partly
1:24:45because therapists who are
1:24:48basically secular liberal
1:24:52Protestants that's a good way of
1:24:53thinking about them tend to
1:24:55conceptualize mental health as mental as
1:24:58subjective right it's like mental health
1:25:01is something you carry around in your
1:25:02head like you carry around your identity
1:25:05that's why we have these ridiculous
1:25:06ideas that you can just Define your own
1:25:08identity I am whoever I say I am well
1:25:11obviously you're not because other
1:25:13people other people have to go along
1:25:15with your game they're buddy and they're
1:25:17either going to do that they're not
1:25:19going to do it or they're going to do it
1:25:21voluntarily or they're going to do it by
1:25:23force if they're not going to do it
1:25:25you're screwed if you have to use Force
1:25:28that's not going to work and if you want
1:25:29them to do it voluntarily then it's not
1:25:31going to be all about you obviously even
1:25:35no four-year-old can find someone to
1:25:37play with if he always gets to pick the
1:25:41game okay
1:25:43so why might young adults be lost well
1:25:46part of it is that they're
1:25:50thinking I'm not trying to be judgmental
1:25:52of a whole generation it's a it's a form
1:25:55of
1:25:57thought your mental health isn't
1:25:59dependent on you that's not the right
1:26:03way to think about
1:26:04it you I don't think you can be mentally
1:26:08healthy in the absence of a long-term
1:26:10stable relationship so you have to be
1:26:13married let's put let's let's make that
1:26:15part of the precondition for successful
1:26:18adaptation as a young adult you have to
1:26:20be married so you have to establish a
1:26:23relationship with someone that
1:26:24integrates sexuality that's there for
1:26:26the long run because there for the long
1:26:28run is the same as
1:26:31Saye there for tomorrow they're for the
1:26:34next minute that's not sanity that's
1:26:37impulsiveness that's aimlessness they're
1:26:40the same thing if it's what if it's all
1:26:42about what you want right now or more
1:26:45accurately all about what something in
1:26:47you wants this moment that's the
1:26:50definition of immature Insanity you have
1:26:53to commit so you commit to someone else
1:26:55you commit to your family you commit to
1:26:58your community like there are multiple
1:26:59levels of identity that stretch out into
1:27:01the social world and voluntarily
1:27:05adopting those levels of hierarchical
1:27:08responsibility gives you an identity it
1:27:11gives you a purpose it protects you from
1:27:13anxiety it does that in all sorts of
1:27:14ways like you know you said earlier that
1:27:17one of the things you do is seek for
1:27:19validation and you related that to
1:27:21uncomfortable experiences you had when
1:27:22you were very young well
1:27:25it might not be precisely that you're
1:27:27seeking for validation you might be
1:27:30properly investigating how you should be
1:27:33embedded in a social
1:27:35hierarchy at every possible level it's
1:27:38like well people think their mental
1:27:40health is something that they just carry
1:27:42around in their head and that if they
1:27:43just got the way they looked at the
1:27:45world right or if other people just
1:27:47played their game that all of a sudden
1:27:49they'd be mentally healthy it's
1:27:52like there's no difference between
1:27:54thinking about yourself and being
1:27:56miserable technically if you if you if
1:27:59you look at you can you can
1:28:04group descriptive statements about
1:28:07yourself
1:28:10statistically all the all the
1:28:14descriptive all the descriptors that are
1:28:16reflective of self-consciousness load on
1:28:19negative emotion can you not think about
1:28:21yourself in a positive way
1:28:24probably not really
1:28:28not well let's take that
1:28:31apart you like doing your podcast and
1:28:34you feel positive about it okay but your
1:28:36podcast isn't about
1:28:38you right so if you're thinking about
1:28:42how you're of utility to a broad number
1:28:45of people you know maybe you would take
1:28:47some satisfaction in that but that isn't
1:28:50exactly thinking about yourself is it
1:28:52it's thinking about the relationship
1:28:54you've established with other people and
1:28:55it's a relationship of responsibility
1:28:57why do you like your podcast you can
1:28:59pursue what you're curious about but you
1:29:02wouldn't have to do that publicly okay
1:29:04so why do you do it
1:29:07publicly for a few reasons first one
1:29:09being that it keeps me accountable that
1:29:12was one of the main reasons that it kept
1:29:14me accountable because I knew that if I
1:29:15didn't do it if I wasn't rigorous and
1:29:18precise and uh aligned with what I'd
1:29:22said and done previously that is an
1:29:25external eye that's watching keep okay
1:29:28okay so well that's very interesting so
1:29:30I would also say that's not exactly
1:29:32about you that's about your ability to
1:29:36live to establish Harmony between what
1:29:39you say and the way you act and the
1:29:41expectations that an increasingly Broad
1:29:44Social Community has of you as a
1:29:46consequence of what you say and how you
1:29:48act okay that's not about you that's
1:29:50about your nesting in a social hierarchy
1:29:54right and so I think I think you can and
1:29:58then you might say too well maybe you're
1:30:00thinking about yourself when you're
1:30:01establishing an aim or a goal well not
1:30:04if they're good aims or
1:30:06goals because if they're good aims or
1:30:08goals and and I would say what good
1:30:11means technically is an aim or goal that
1:30:14will play out
1:30:17well in the medium to long
1:30:20term across a multitude of situations
1:30:24including many many people so the a
1:30:28solution that iterates across
1:30:30time that and that
1:30:33is situation independent and that's
1:30:37broadly socially inclusive is a better
1:30:40aim right it's a higher aim because it
1:30:42integrates more all right now you might
1:30:45want to be setting up aims and you might
1:30:47be pleased about how you're progressing
1:30:50in relation to those aims but if those
1:30:52aims aren't don't have the
1:30:54characteristics that I just
1:30:56described
1:31:00then if the Asim have the
1:31:02characteristics I just described they're
1:31:04not about you and then we could also ask
1:31:07what do you mean about you exactly what
1:31:10you are you talking about here you know
1:31:12and so we play these identity games in
1:31:14the modern world that are making people
1:31:17anxious and hopeless and one identity
1:31:20game is I'm defined by my sexuality okay
1:31:24so let's take that I'm defined by my
1:31:25sexuality okay but what do you mean by
1:31:27your sexuality exactly do you mean the
1:31:31opportunity to engage in sex like are
1:31:34you reducing sexuality as such to the
1:31:37act of sex okay let's say you are so now
1:31:40what you're telling me is that who you
1:31:42are is who you are when you're sexually
1:31:44desirous that's what you've reduced
1:31:46yourself to but it's even more than that
1:31:48it's the kind of sexual desire that
1:31:50wants gratification right now with no
1:31:54relationship whatsoever so not only have
1:31:56you now reduced who you are to your
1:31:58sexual desire you've reduced your sexual
1:32:01desire to the minimal set of
1:32:03preconditions that would satisfy it well
1:32:05then the first question that might come
1:32:06up there is why not just use porn it's a
1:32:09lot simpler and the answer to that is
1:32:11that is what people are doing well it's
1:32:13no wonder that they're anxious and
1:32:15Lonesome and aimless because they've
1:32:18they've reduced themselves to a
1:32:19short-term desire they found the easiest
1:32:21possible way of gratifying that and
1:32:23they've abandoned everything that would
1:32:26be a much broader conceptualization of
1:32:29what sexuality would be if it was
1:32:30embedded properly in well how about a
1:32:33relationship to start with and I'm not
1:32:36just these aren't just opinions
1:32:40so there are two different strategies of
1:32:44reproduction broadly in the animal world
1:32:48one is zero
1:32:51investment fish m mosquitoes million
1:32:55Offspring they all die but one right so
1:32:59you can reduce reproduction in
1:33:00mosquitoes basically to sex and you make
1:33:03a million mosquito Offspring all you
1:33:06need is one to survive problem solved
1:33:08okay on the opposite end of the spectrum
1:33:10literally are human beings because we
1:33:13have the longest dependency period of
1:33:15any animal by a large margin we have a
1:33:18high investment strategy sexual
1:33:20reproduction strategy so whatever sex is
1:33:23for human beings
1:33:24isn't you're off and that's over that's
1:33:27not what it is for human beings it's
1:33:28embedded in a relationship now you might
1:33:30say well we could pull sexuality out of
1:33:33the relationship and just indulge in it
1:33:37for the pleasure okay so now let's
1:33:38forget about all the other animals now
1:33:40we've got two types of human being we've
1:33:42got the one night stand human being
1:33:45repetitive one night stands and we've
1:33:47got the long-term committed relationship
1:33:48human being and then we might ask okay
1:33:51what are the personality characteristics
1:33:54of the people in those bins so let's go
1:33:56to the short-term one night stand
1:33:59sequential relationship types okay who
1:34:02are they Psychopathic narcissistic
1:34:06mauian and sadistic all one night stand
1:34:12people if they don't start out that way
1:34:15they're going to end that
1:34:16way right because you can't use yourself
1:34:19or other people for short-term
1:34:21gratification look the definition of a
1:34:24psychopath is someone who uses someone
1:34:26for short-term
1:34:27gratification okay so it's definitional
1:34:30right so and then you might say well I'm
1:34:32not like that I just like sex it's like
1:34:35yeah but if you practice that for five
1:34:37years you're not going to become what
1:34:39you practice you know
1:34:44and I talked to Russell Brand about this
1:34:47a little bit on and I can say this
1:34:50because it was on his podcast so it's
1:34:52not like this is Secret you know Russell
1:34:55had what Andrew Tate promises his
1:34:57followers he had Fame he was
1:35:01charismatic and he had more or less
1:35:03unlimited access to short-term sexual
1:35:06gratification okay in combination with
1:35:10you know the chemicals that make that
1:35:12even more likely alcohol and cocaine
1:35:15let's
1:35:18say so what are the consequences well I
1:35:21asked him what were the consequences you
1:35:22had this he said uh despair anxiety and
1:35:26hopelessness right but but not just that
1:35:29because you know Russell got himself in
1:35:31trouble here month and a half ago just
1:35:33about took him out well it was his past
1:35:36coming back to haunt him like and he had
1:35:38to scroll through his psyche and see you
1:35:41know well in with all these short-term
1:35:46relationships these
1:35:48short-term sexual gratification binges
1:35:51that I indulged in did I ever cross the
1:35:53line well the answer is well you're
1:35:56going to have like 200 encounters like
1:35:59that you're not going to cross the line
1:36:00when you're drunk when you're on cocaine
1:36:03you're going to cross a bunch of lines
1:36:05and then it's going to come back and
1:36:06haunt you and
1:36:15so it's very interesting to see in our
1:36:18culture back to the hopelessness and
1:36:20despair that you were mentioning that's
1:36:23character in young adults life it's like
1:36:26well it's all about me that's the
1:36:28self-esteem movement but then me becomes
1:36:30it's all about what I want and then that
1:36:32becomes it's all about what I want right
1:36:34now then it's it's what the lowest part
1:36:37of me wants right now and to hell with
1:36:39everyone else it's like
1:36:42okay how are you going to play that game
1:36:44without being desperate you're going to
1:36:46be desperate as soon as you start
1:36:47playing that game and the other thing
1:36:49it's even worse than that because you're
1:36:50going to end up with
1:36:51the Jeremy
1:36:54the the the porn star problem anybody
1:36:57you're not going to be very happy about
1:36:59being with the people who want to play
1:37:00that game with you because they're not
1:37:03going to be the people that are really
1:37:04going to make you feel that life is
1:37:06worth living they're going to be the
1:37:08people especially on the female
1:37:11side women who are willing to take
1:37:13advantage of themselves for short-term
1:37:14sexual gratification those aren't happy
1:37:17women they're usually damaged women and
1:37:21if they're not damaged when they start
1:37:22playing that game game they're going to
1:37:24be plenty damaged by the time they're
1:37:25done with it the last time that we spoke
1:37:27me you talked about population Decline
1:37:30and the Census Bureau just released
1:37:32today predicting that the US population
1:37:35will decline for the first time ever by
1:37:37the year 201100 after peaking in 2080 so
1:37:40their estimates showed that the US
1:37:41population which is about 333 million at
1:37:44the moment is expected to reach 370 by
1:37:462080 but will be back down to 366 by
1:37:502100 and even immigration can't offset
1:37:54this birth rate
1:37:55decline over the last two years do you
1:37:58think things have got better or worse
1:38:00than you anticipated from birth rate and
1:38:03marriage rate standpoint I think they're
1:38:05probably still getting
1:38:07worse uh and I think
1:38:11musk musk is one of the few people Elon
1:38:14Musk is one of the in case anybody was
1:38:16wondering um he's one of the few people
1:38:19who who's called out the danger of you
1:38:22know a one child policy or the idea that
1:38:25we should decrease the population I
1:38:28mean things that don't grow die but they
1:38:32die for all sorts of reasons and we
1:38:34could we could tie this back to Identity
1:38:36you know what's my identity I could say
1:38:38well it's how I feel about myself that's
1:38:40that's the line that's used everywhere
1:38:42now you don't get to tell me who I am I
1:38:45know who I am I can I'm who I feel I am
1:38:48well first of all I don't even know what
1:38:49you mean by feel like what the hell what
1:38:51does that mean you're your emotional
1:38:54state at the moment and you can just
1:38:57impose that on everybody that's your
1:38:59theory is it that's the theory of a
1:39:002-year-old literally that's a very bad
1:39:03Theory
1:39:08well where could your identity be other
1:39:11than that well one of my identities when
1:39:13I taught at Harvard was Professor
1:39:15obviously and that was a good identity
1:39:17but you know that wasn't exactly it
1:39:19wasn't something I was carrying around
1:39:20in my head it was a pattern of
1:39:23relationship that I had with a whole
1:39:25bunch of people all my students right it
1:39:27wasn't inside my head now there was a
1:39:30concordance between my representation of
1:39:33myself and how I was acting in the world
1:39:35and that concordance was the health it
1:39:38wasn't what I thought of myself you
1:39:43like part of the reason that you can
1:39:45take some let's call it gratification
1:39:48from being a successful podcaster is
1:39:51that you're actually a successful
1:39:52podcast
1:39:53it's not in your head it's in 1.5
1:39:57million subscribers it's how many
1:39:58podcasts have you done 700 okay so it's
1:40:01in 700 podcasts it's not something
1:40:03you're carrying around in your head do
1:40:05you remember I love the 42 Rules that
1:40:08created the 24 that you ended up coming
1:40:10up with but there's one that you didn't
1:40:11use uh if you have to choose be the one
1:40:14who does things right not the one who is
1:40:17seen to do things exactly absolutely I
1:40:19love that rule oh yeah that's a great
1:40:21rule that's a great rule yeah well the
1:40:23thing is is that you can do almost
1:40:25anything you want if you're willing to
1:40:27take responsibility for it if you don't
1:40:29want credit one of the most effective
1:40:30political maneuver I've ever seen woman
1:40:34who's she's so brilliant I won't tell
1:40:36you who she is but she's so sharp she's
1:40:37so brilliant and she told me the last
1:40:39time I saw her she's had her finger in
1:40:41pies for like 30 years popping up in
1:40:44places you'd never expect I thought I
1:40:46asked just like how the hell did you
1:40:47pull this off and she said oh I decided
1:40:4930 years ago that I could do whatever I
1:40:52wanted if I didn't want credit and so
1:40:55that's exactly what she's done and she's
1:40:56had a stellar career stellar and I've
1:41:00worked with other people who've done the
1:41:01same thing it's very interesting it's
1:41:04very interesting thing to realize you
1:41:06might say well why would I want the
1:41:07responsibility without the glory it's
1:41:09like hey do you want the glory are you
1:41:11so sure that that wouldn't just get in
1:41:12your way you know there's something to
1:41:14be said for anonymity and second maybe
1:41:17you want the responsibility because
1:41:19that's the adventure you actually get to
1:41:21do the thing that someone else just
1:41:23wants to take credit for well maybe
1:41:25doing the thing is plenty of reward in
1:41:28and of
1:41:29itself with regard to
1:41:31Identity you know when when I was a
1:41:34professor I was also a husband and I was
1:41:36also a father well those were identities
1:41:39but they weren't in my head they were
1:41:41embedded in the relationship I had with
1:41:43my kids and that was a meaningful
1:41:44relationship embedded in the
1:41:45relationship I had with my wife you
1:41:47can't be you know it's almost heretical
1:41:50to say this in the modern world
1:41:54you can't be isolated alone without
1:41:59responsibility and pursuing your
1:42:01hedonistic
1:42:02nonsense and not be insane and miserable
1:42:06those are all the same thing right and
1:42:10so you know it's got to the point i'
1:42:12I've said things that have made me
1:42:14somewhat unpopular like it's very
1:42:15difficult for people to mature until
1:42:16they have a
1:42:21child you find a huge part of what you
1:42:24are in that relationship it makes you
1:42:27responsible makes you grow up it gives
1:42:29you the opportunity to Mentor someone
1:42:31you have someone around who's more
1:42:33important than you well that's part of
1:42:35being mentally healthy it's a huge part
1:42:37of it this is this Enterprise that I put
1:42:41together in London helped put together
1:42:43Alliance for responsible citizenship
1:42:45we're trying to put forward a model of
1:42:48governance it's called subsidiary model
1:42:51and the idea is that
1:42:53people have multiple social roles that
1:42:56scale know there's you should take care
1:42:58of yourself integrate yourself which
1:43:01means you can conduct yourself properly
1:43:04across the medium to long run you're
1:43:06self- sustaining then you can maybe
1:43:08extend that to your partner and then to
1:43:10your family and then to your local
1:43:12community and then to broader
1:43:14communities as you become more and more
1:43:16competent and able to take on that
1:43:19responsibility that's the alternative to
1:43:22isolated Hedon slavery you slave to your
1:43:25own whims and it's the alternative to
1:43:27tyranny because if you take on all that
1:43:30responsibility you don't have any need
1:43:32for someone to govern you and so that's
1:43:36another example of
1:43:38how I blamed it on the therapists a
1:43:41little bit I called them liberal
1:43:43Protestant
1:43:45secularists and that's
1:43:47because they think about the Locust of
1:43:50the psyche as in
1:43:53interior subjective that's what a
1:43:55liberal would do it's just not accurate
1:43:58that isn't that isn't the way the psyche
1:44:01works it's not in your head you know
1:44:05it's it's in your head and in the world
1:44:08at the same time it's truly the case
1:44:10that your sanity is the
1:44:13concordance between you as an individual
1:44:16and the world that's the sanity it's not
1:44:19the proper structuring of your psyche or
1:44:22your brain for that matter inside your
1:44:25skull you're distributed out into the
1:44:27world and you should be and that's you
1:44:30want to be that's where the adventure is
1:44:32you want to be
1:44:33solipsistic the solipsistic porn
1:44:36masturbator Jesus it's no wonder you be
1:44:39aimless and miserable well God it's so
1:44:42pathetic why am I so unhappy it's
1:44:45because you think about yourself no you
1:44:48think about the lowest impulses in
1:44:51yourself all the time that's why you're
1:44:54miserable whilst being Arc what I
1:44:56thought was particularly interesting was
1:44:58your live event that you guys did at the
1:45:00O2 on the evening time and everyone was
1:45:03great but Douglas I thought was just a
1:45:06tour to force that evening what have you
1:45:09learned since being friends with Douglas
1:45:12how's he impacted you or influenced
1:45:15you well douglas douglas is very very
1:45:19disagreeable you know and he enjoyed
1:45:24combat and that isn't something that
1:45:26really characterizes I don't enjoy
1:45:28combat at all I mean part of the reason
1:45:31that it's perverse I suppose in some
1:45:34ways part of the reason that I will
1:45:38engage
1:45:39in difficult conversations is because I
1:45:42don't want to have them
1:45:44forever and so you know one of the rules
1:45:46I had in my marriage and it was a rule
1:45:49that my wife also was pleased to follow
1:45:52was that if we have a problem we're
1:45:54going to deal with it right now and
1:45:56we're going to deal with it right to the
1:45:58bottom and that's very unpleasant but if
1:46:01you do
1:46:03it sometimes you only have to do it once
1:46:06and the problem goes away and then you
1:46:07don't have that Bloody problem every day
1:46:09for the rest of your life and sometimes
1:46:11it takes you know 20 times before it's
1:46:14fixed before you've got to the bottom of
1:46:16things and that can be very
1:46:19unpleasant Douglas is very very good at
1:46:25not letting people off the hook he's
1:46:27very tough and he's very good at
1:46:29defending himself
1:46:32and and he there's a pitilessness about
1:46:36him that's extraordinarily admirable
1:46:38it's a judicious pitilessness you know
1:46:41and it's a dangerous game to play
1:46:43because there's another gospel
1:46:45realization let's say is the standards
1:46:48you judge other people by will be the
1:46:51standards that you yourself are judging
1:46:52judged by and the reason for that is
1:46:55well how are you going to judge everyone
1:46:57else and not apply the same standards to
1:47:00yourself like that's not going to happen
1:47:02because you become what you practice and
1:47:04you'll turn the eye the Hostile eye that
1:47:07you turn on others you will absolutely
1:47:09turn on yourself there's there's no way
1:47:10around that and so Douglas plays a
1:47:12dangerous game because he's very
1:47:15combative but he's also extremely
1:47:17careful he's very careful with his words
1:47:20and we've had a he toured with through
1:47:23Europe I think we did nine shows
1:47:25together we we split the Q&A he intro he
1:47:28did a little bit of an introduction
1:47:30before my lectures I really liked it I
1:47:33thought it was great it's been a
1:47:34privilege to get to know him super sharp
1:47:37um very cultured person um very witty so
1:47:41he has a great sense of humor which is
1:47:43also fun which also was one of the
1:47:44things that makes him a very dangerous
1:47:47opponent in a debate because not only
1:47:50does he have the facts at hand
1:47:53like Bjorn lomberg but he's
1:47:55devastatingly witting witty and cutting
1:47:58and it's fun to watch that he's a master
1:48:00at it so it was uh it's interesting to
1:48:03think about the fact
1:48:05that all you need really in a live
1:48:08debate I think I learned this from you
1:48:09and Sam ages ago if you're doing a live
1:48:12debate now that's not a proper
1:48:14intellectual formatted opening remarks
1:48:17so on and so forth if you manage to get
1:48:18sort of two or three real zingers you
1:48:21won regardless of the content if you do
1:48:24two or three real Zinger whole crowd
1:48:27laughs guess what you you got yeah well
1:48:30the great public intellectuals have a
1:48:32vicious sense of humor right and I mean
1:48:35I also think that's why so many of the
1:48:36successful podcasters have been
1:48:38comedians well at the ark conference I
1:48:41think Constantine Ken's speech was the
1:48:44overwhelming hit of the convention I
1:48:47think it's got 600,000 views as of today
1:48:50650 on the ark side in about 600 on his
1:48:53own channel and Constantine did a
1:48:56beautiful job of merging intellectual
1:48:59content with wh well the thing the
1:49:02interesting thing about uh my live tour
1:49:04that I'm about to start doing bunch of
1:49:06my comedian friends have said to me dude
1:49:08I am so jealous of the tour that you get
1:49:11to do because no one's expecting you to
1:49:13be funny if you managed to be funny four
1:49:15times in 90 minutes you've killed if I'm
1:49:18not funny once every seven seconds I'm a
1:49:21[ __ ] comedian right so the bar is set
1:49:23and obviously coming in with
1:49:26Constantine's background of Comedy means
1:49:29that he is able to be by far the you
1:49:31know Far and Away way funnier than most
1:49:33public speakers uh but doesn't get held
1:49:37necessarily to the same standards that
1:49:38he he's not expecting to be one liners
1:49:40all the time one of the things that
1:49:41Douglas brought up when you guys were
1:49:43talking on stage that I thought was
1:49:44particularly interesting was The Perils
1:49:47of smart people getting captured by
1:49:50culture wars [ __ ] do you ever
1:49:53think about how much time over the last
1:49:55decade some of the smartest people on
1:49:57the planet have had their attention
1:49:59their cognitive horow just yeah taken
1:50:02away arguing about whether men are men
1:50:04and women are women or not or whatever
1:50:06the idea the jure of the day is yeah
1:50:09well this is so I've been partnering
1:50:12with the daily wire for about a year and
1:50:14a half so far that's been very
1:50:16successful they've been a pleasure to
1:50:18work with but what they wrestle with
1:50:21constantly all them all of the
1:50:23principles all of the principles at
1:50:25Daily wire would rather in some real way
1:50:28be be concentrating on philosophical
1:50:31theological or dramatic matters so which
1:50:34is partly why the daily wire is turning
1:50:36towards entertainment for kids but also
1:50:39for adults starting to make movies for
1:50:41example and TV shows they'd rather be
1:50:43doing that I had Ben
1:50:46Shapiro um he participated in this
1:50:48seminar on Exodus that I produced with
1:50:51about nine other um extraordinarily
1:50:54interesting thinkers and Ben is Shawn
1:50:58you know he he's he's
1:51:00wasted is he wasted on the
1:51:04political the political is necessary but
1:51:08it's it's one nation under God for a
1:51:10reason because the political the
1:51:12political isn't the Pinnacle never it's
1:51:14never the Pinnacle and if you're capable
1:51:16of discourse at the Pinnacle political
1:51:19discourse is secondary there's also
1:51:22evanescent right there's ways that it
1:51:25can tumble as well there's uh how would
1:51:27you say degrees of depth of political
1:51:30stuff too because what works on YouTube
1:51:33a lot of the time is in reacts to insane
1:51:36woke Tik toks or does whatever and it's
1:51:38easy to get pigeon H holded that way
1:51:40yeah yeah and it is is it a
1:51:44waste it's nonoptimal but it's a
1:51:47question it's an interesting question to
1:51:48be asked right about how much sort of
1:51:51ankle or skirt need you need to show
1:51:54from an algorithmic perspective in order
1:51:56to keep the numbers churning because
1:51:58ultimately you're producing what people
1:52:01click on you don't want to be completely
1:52:02beholden to your audience that's
1:52:03audience capture but you also don't want
1:52:05to be so unaware of having your finger
1:52:09on the pulse of what is trendy that you
1:52:10become obscure and obsolete right right
1:52:13well in that well in that line that
1:52:16you're trying to walk when you're
1:52:18dealing with matters that are the
1:52:20highest and also making them publicly
1:52:23accessible that's a very very tight line
1:52:25to walk I mean Jonathan Paso has done a
1:52:29good job of that although his Market is
1:52:31still relatively Niche and he certainly
1:52:33is more esoteric let's say than the
1:52:36daily wire guys who tend to devolve into
1:52:38the political and that devolves into the
1:52:41cheap political from time to time right
1:52:43the hit for hit sake or the or the
1:52:45chasing the algorithm and I mean that's
1:52:48the danger that all politicians have too
1:52:50is that and I've seen this with lots of
1:52:51political
1:52:52who have developed a
1:52:55Persona this is particularly true in the
1:52:57United States I would say because
1:52:59Americans are so sales money and I don't
1:53:01say that dismissively it's really hard
1:53:05to sell to Market to
1:53:08communicate I I saw the Elvis movie
1:53:10recently and I thought it did a
1:53:11beautiful job of laying this out because
1:53:13Elvis was a stellar talent but his
1:53:15manager who was a real Shyer was also a
1:53:18stellar Talent like Elvis wouldn't have
1:53:20been who he was without his corrupt
1:53:22manager and you know it's sort of a deal
1:53:25with the devil but you have to give the
1:53:27devil is due too and the salesman part
1:53:29of American culture can easily devolve
1:53:32into a kind
1:53:33of
1:53:36narcissistic manipulativeness that's
1:53:38that's where it would go if it becomes
1:53:40pathological but as you said you have to
1:53:44be aware of your audience and you have
1:53:46to be delivering what there's a market
1:53:48for and it's very difficult to get those
1:53:51things right this is a question question
1:53:52that I've got about your new book coming
1:53:54out next year I haven't seen any of it
1:53:57and it sounds like based on what you're
1:53:59reading at the moment you're trying to
1:54:00Grapple with religious texts especially
1:54:02the Bible we who wrestle with God is the
1:54:04name of the book we who wrestle with God
1:54:05yeah which is the that's what the word
1:54:08Israel means Israel means we who wrestle
1:54:11with God and so well it's very
1:54:13interesting because it means the chosen
1:54:15people are the people who wrestle with
1:54:17God and you might say well who wrestles
1:54:19with God and the answer to that is well
1:54:21everyone wrestles with god well why
1:54:24because you can't act without making
1:54:26moral decisions like every every step
1:54:30forward is predicated on a moral
1:54:32decision and so we're all wrestling with
1:54:35God is God a moral
1:54:41decision God is the spirit that guides
1:54:44you when you make the proper moral
1:54:46decisions so I wouldn't say God is a
1:54:49moral decision he's the spirit of he's
1:54:52the Spirit of moral decision that's
1:54:54that's actually not a bad definition
1:54:56like part of what I'm trying to do with
1:54:59this book is to point out that a lot of
1:55:01what's happening in the biblical Corpus
1:55:02is actually
1:55:04definitional right
1:55:06well people modern people think the
1:55:09fundamental issue is do you believe in
1:55:11God but that's not the fundamental issue
1:55:13the fundamental issue is what do you
1:55:15mean by God and so let me give you an
1:55:18example of this that will make it
1:55:19clearer so there's no there's a medieval
1:55:21idea that that God is the sum bonum
1:55:24which means the sum of all that's good
1:55:26or the essence of all that's good okay
1:55:29you might say well I don't believe in
1:55:31that now remember this is a definition
1:55:34of God right God is the sum of all
1:55:37that's good okay all right so you don't
1:55:39believe in that all right let's take
1:55:41that
1:55:42apart do you believe that some things
1:55:44are better than other things well people
1:55:46will say yes okay so then you believe
1:55:48that there is a scale of good
1:55:52okay is there something that all things
1:55:55that are good share in common and the
1:55:58answer that has to be yes because
1:56:00otherwise you don't have a conception of
1:56:01good right the word good implies that
1:56:05across good things there's some Essence
1:56:08okay well the definition the medieval
1:56:10one medieval definition of God is the
1:56:12essence of good well okay let's say you
1:56:15don't believe in that okay does that
1:56:17mean you don't believe in anything
1:56:18that's good okay then how how do you act
1:56:23then because to act means to do
1:56:26something that's better than what you're
1:56:27doing now right there's no action
1:56:30without movement towards the the good
1:56:32and well you might you might say well I
1:56:34don't believe that there's a unitary
1:56:35good okay you believe there's there's a
1:56:38fractionated good well then what do you
1:56:39do when those things oppose one another
1:56:42right which would be in a conflict of
1:56:43Duty what how do you refer to what do
1:56:47you refer to to help you adjudicate
1:56:49between different Goods well generally
1:56:51what you do is if you could pursue a
1:56:54which is good or B which is good and
1:56:56they conflict then you pick the higher
1:56:58good okay do you believe in a higher
1:57:00good well if you don't you can't decide
1:57:03between goods which means you're
1:57:05paralyzed if you do believe in the
1:57:07higher good then do you believe in the
1:57:09highest good well the highest good is
1:57:12God what do you mean by that by
1:57:15definition okay so now you have a
1:57:17definition now then the next question
1:57:19might be well what's your relation ship
1:57:22with the highest good and you might say
1:57:24well I don't have a relationship it's
1:57:25like well actually you do because you
1:57:27act in relationship to it you can't help
1:57:30it you one of the interesting things
1:57:33about the biblical Corpus is that it's
1:57:37based on the insistance that you have a
1:57:41relationship with being and becoming a
1:57:43relationship like a personal
1:57:45relationship when you say biblical culus
1:57:46do you mean the collection of texts that
1:57:48makes up the Bible yeah because it's a
1:57:49library of of books essentially right
1:57:51the Bible is actually the first library
1:57:53of books it's written by a v a very
1:57:56large number of different people and
1:57:58aggregated over thousands of years and
1:58:00then
1:58:01sequenced actually sequenced into a
1:58:03narrative interestingly enough because
1:58:06no one really sequenced it or by no one
1:58:10I mean no individual person it was the
1:58:13Endeavor of the collective or the spirit
1:58:17that possessed the collective over
1:58:19thousands of years but the narrative is
1:58:22coherent which is really quite something
1:58:25and so the narrative is an investigation
1:58:27number one into the nature of God number
1:58:30two into the nature of relationship with
1:58:32God and then number three into the
1:58:35nature of the proper relationship with
1:58:38God all of those things and God
1:58:41is the sum of all that's good so the
1:58:44Bible is an analysis of H the human
1:58:46relationship with the
1:58:49good what what would have to happen
1:58:53after the publishing of we who wrestle
1:58:55with God for you to look back on that
1:58:58publication and consider it a success
1:59:01what is it that you want to happen what
1:59:03do you want people to feel or to take
1:59:05away from that
1:59:08work I think we're at the beginning of
1:59:11the counter
1:59:14Enlightenment the the propositions the
1:59:17enlightenment view of man is wrong and
1:59:21this you know out of the Enlightenment
1:59:23view came science but the Science Now
1:59:25indicates that the enlightenment view of
1:59:27man is wrong what do you mean well the
1:59:30enlightenment types believe that we
1:59:32could Orient ourselves in the world
1:59:34let's say empirically that and this is
1:59:37Sam Harris's
1:59:39proposition you can abide by the facts
1:59:43you can Orient yourself as a consequence
1:59:45of the dispassionate analysis of the
1:59:48facts you can't and I would say the
1:59:54artificial intelligence Engineers have
1:59:56figured that out the postmodern literary
1:59:59critics have figured that out the
2:00:01psychologists and physiologists of
2:00:04perception have figured it out and the
2:00:06neuroscientists have figured that out so
2:00:09it's not just the evidence that that
2:00:12view is necessarily incorrect is
2:00:15overwhelming and
2:00:16multi-dimensional you can't Orient
2:00:18Yourself by the facts why because there
2:00:21are as many facts as there are things in
2:00:25fact if you combine
2:00:28things the nature of the combination is
2:00:30also a fact so there's as many facts as
2:00:33there are things and combinations of
2:00:34things well you can't Orient Yourself by
2:00:37that that's you drown in chaos it's like
2:00:41you're standing in the desert and
2:00:42there's an infinite number of directions
2:00:44you could go well how do you choose a
2:00:46direction and that's showing up in that
2:00:49most recent survey that I just mentioned
2:00:51people feeling meaninglessness
2:00:53purposelessness I overwhel lost in the
2:00:55desert they're lost in the desert that's
2:00:58and the desert is the desert of fact
2:01:00it's dead facts especially given how few
2:01:03people can agree on is this a fact or is
2:01:06this counter the well that's also a
2:01:09problem is it's not like the facts are
2:01:11necessarily self-evident some facts are
2:01:14and I suppose to some degree what the
2:01:16scientific Corpus is is the elaboration
2:01:19of a set of
2:01:24incontrovertible facts I've read
2:01:26recently that the whole big bang
2:01:28narrative is starting to come apart you
2:01:30know that was a fact for a long time now
2:01:32I don't know if that's the case I don't
2:01:33know enough about it but my sense is
2:01:36that the new discoveries from the web
2:01:38telescope have made many of the
2:01:39presumptions upon which the Big Bang
2:01:42model was based questionable so now I
2:01:46don't want to you know fall down a
2:01:47postmodern rabbit hole
2:01:50because alth the issue of what
2:01:52constitutes a fact is a very complicated
2:01:55issue anyways you can cut to the chase
2:01:58by pointing out that we organize facts
2:02:01in a hierarchy of value and you see the
2:02:04thing about I'm trying to make this case
2:02:05in the
2:02:07book you do this when you look at the
2:02:10world you can't look at the world except
2:02:13through a hierarchy of value so for
2:02:14example as we're sitting here there's an
2:02:17infinite number of places we could be
2:02:19pointing our eyes like I could be
2:02:22talking to you and looking at this
2:02:23little spot on the concrete floor or the
2:02:26spot beside it or the infinite number of
2:02:28spots surrounding it constantly but I'm
2:02:30not I'm looking at your eyes okay why
2:02:33because I'm prioritizing them so the
2:02:37fact that dominates in this landscape is
2:02:39the fact of your eyes
2:02:42why I can use your eyes to evaluate our
2:02:47shared Focus right and that's why we
2:02:50look at other people's eyes it's also
2:02:52why humans have got white around the
2:02:54exactly it's so that we can see what
2:02:55other people are attending to so that we
2:02:57can get insight into the story a story
2:03:01is a
2:03:02description of a hierarchy of value
2:03:05stories can be Fantastical though right
2:03:07if they're untethered to anything I can
2:03:09make up Harry Potter's a story now this
2:03:11if they're untethered to anything you
2:03:13won't find them interesting because they
2:03:15won't resonate they they won't grip you
2:03:19yeah they're they're tethered stories
2:03:21are are Tethered to reality in a very
2:03:24very complicated way because reality
2:03:28isn't what presents itself moment to
2:03:31moment
2:03:39it's our
2:03:41math there's a huge debate among
2:03:43philosophers about mathematical
2:03:45abstractions are they real well you
2:03:47could make a case that a mathematical
2:03:49abstraction is more real than the thing
2:03:51from which it's abstracted how would you
2:03:53make that case if you're a master of
2:03:56mathematics you master the world so are
2:03:59the mathematical abstractions more or
2:04:01less real narrative abstractions are
2:04:04abstractions but you could
2:04:07say this is what an archetype is an
2:04:10archetype is a narrative abstraction
2:04:12that's more real than the world than the
2:04:14apparent world it's behind the scenes
2:04:18and the biblical Corpus is a is a
2:04:21narrative narrative it's a hyperreal
2:04:24narrative that's the right way to think
2:04:26about it it's more real than real it's
2:04:28more real than reality how could
2:04:30something that isn't the thing be more
2:04:31real than the thing well that's exactly
2:04:33the problem with
2:04:35abstraction right is the idea of a
2:04:38church more real than a given
2:04:40Church well it is in some ways because
2:04:43it encapsulates what's similar across
2:04:46all churches right so it it's like a
2:04:48platonic ideal a category is like a
2:04:51platonic ideal is it more or less real
2:04:54well you could say that the reality this
2:04:56is what Plato said the reality is a dim
2:04:59shadow of the essence the reality is
2:05:02less real than the
2:05:04ideal and we we
2:05:06certainly and that's actually in some
2:05:08ways built into our perception like we
2:05:12we
2:05:13criticize we criticize the things that
2:05:15present themselves to us because they
2:05:17are poor reflections of the hypothetical
2:05:19ideal you might say well the ideal isn't
2:05:21real it's like
2:05:23well you could make the opposite
2:05:26argument which is that the ideal is more
2:05:28real than the thing itself and I mean I
2:05:30can give you an example of these
2:05:31patterns so in the story of Cain and
2:05:33Abel you have two patterns of
2:05:35sacrifice okay why is sacrifice an issue
2:05:40the reason it's an issue is because
2:05:42people exist in a sacrificial
2:05:44relationship to the world what does that
2:05:47mean it seems to mean something like
2:05:50human beings are aware of their extended
2:05:52self you know you're going to be around
2:05:54tomorrow and next week and next month
2:05:56and next year and 5 years from now and
2:05:5810 years from now now it's less certain
2:06:00as you go out but you do have the sense
2:06:03of yourself as something that stretches
2:06:05across the decades okay and so what that
2:06:07means is that you have to conduct
2:06:10yourself in a manner that isn't merely
2:06:14immediate you have to conduct yourself
2:06:16in a manner that will work across time
2:06:18now how do people do that they work
2:06:22work is a sacrificial gesture so you
2:06:25work by definition virtually work is the
2:06:30sacrifice of the present for the future
2:06:33I mean maybe someone can come up with a
2:06:34better definition of work than that but
2:06:36I don't think so it's like you you put
2:06:39in time and effort right now it's
2:06:40something even if it's something maybe
2:06:43not what you'd like to be doing at the
2:06:45moment you put in time and effort
2:06:46because you believe what the hell does
2:06:49that mean you believe it'll pay off
2:06:52well is that a
2:06:53contract with the future is it a
2:06:56covenant because the relationship that
2:06:59the biblical
2:07:01Corpus insists characterizes human
2:07:05striving is covenantal it's a bargain
2:07:07the bargain is you make the right
2:07:10sacrifices and they pay off that's the
2:07:13bargain now you might say well that's
2:07:15just part of the social contract but the
2:07:18biblical Corpus insists that it's deeper
2:07:20than that it's built into the the
2:07:21structure of reality itself and that if
2:07:23you got the sacrifices right the future
2:07:27would be
2:07:28paradisal I've got it in my head that KL
2:07:31young quote beware of unearned
2:07:33wisdom that feels like that feels like
2:07:37it plays a role here like
2:07:40how the work that you need to put in in
2:07:43order to be able to arrive at genuinely
2:07:45knowing the thing the difference between
2:07:47actually being attractive because who
2:07:49you are is attractive and you being able
2:07:50to be a pickup artist that is able to
2:07:52make the mouth noises and the hand
2:07:54gestures that caus those those are the
2:07:56fruits of false sacrifice you could say
2:07:58that unearned unearned moral reputation
2:08:02is the consequence of false sacrifice
2:08:05well this is performative empathy right
2:08:07sure
2:08:09exactly definitely that's the same as
2:08:11praying in public look at how good I am
2:08:14if the look at if the look at comes
2:08:17before the how good I am right right
2:08:20right right it really
2:08:22re's havoc on the good claim it's also I
2:08:25spoke to Douglas about this it seems to
2:08:27almost be a predictor it's an identifier
2:08:31that you should be a little bit more
2:08:32cautious about what this person is do
2:08:34definitely you know if every single
2:08:36person that's super sweety and nicey
2:08:38nicy lizo do you see lizo was in the
2:08:41news recently no so she is a uh artist
2:08:45singer uh she the one that that got in
2:08:47trouble for abusing her close
2:08:50compatriots dancers she made her dancers
2:08:52eat bananas out of the vaginas of amster
2:08:54Damian strippers um Douglas said that he
2:08:57oh yeah that's a little on the
2:08:58hedonistic power mad side well she was
2:09:00supposed to be you know this bass like
2:09:02for the girls and body positivity and
2:09:04all this stuff but it turned out behind
2:09:05the scenes that she was treating her
2:09:07dances terribly body shaming them all of
2:09:09the time but she was the one up front
2:09:11that was the Vanguard of this particular
2:09:13movement but you'd seen the same with uh
2:09:15was it Jimmy Fallon I think he was uh
2:09:18caught up in a fural recently that he
2:09:20was a tyrant to work for and yet out
2:09:21front Ellen degenerous again the same
2:09:24it's almost actually like if somebody is
2:09:28it's very much like that overloading on
2:09:31the sweetie nicey I am here for the
2:09:34underlings that you go I'm a little bit
2:09:37suspicious of what's going on
2:09:39there if you need to Proclaim your
2:09:42Purity and your good
2:09:46standing if it's all words and opinions
2:09:49and not Deeds one of The Commandments
2:09:51one of the Ten Commandments is do not
2:09:53use God's name in vain okay now people
2:09:56think that means don't swear and it sort
2:09:58of means that that's one of its like
2:10:01tangential meanings but what it really
2:10:03means is do not
2:10:06claim Divine motivation for self-serving
2:10:11Behavior right and that's performative
2:10:13compassion so what you do is you elevate
2:10:15compassion to the highest place so you
2:10:17make it your God which is big mistake
2:10:19because whatever God is
2:10:21he is not merely compassion you elevate
2:10:25compassion to the highest place and then
2:10:27you say I feel sorry for people and what
2:10:30that does is elevate your moral status
2:10:32to the highest possible place right it's
2:10:34completely unearned
2:10:36because this is something JK Rowling got
2:10:39so accurate with her Dolores Umbridge
2:10:41character right he was an absolute power
2:10:44mink with little kittens had the kittens
2:10:47on the plates it's like this toxic
2:10:49sentimentality I'm so nice it's like
2:10:51yeah I'd like to stay away from you and
2:10:53you're devouring niceness and the
2:10:56freudians knew about that very very in a
2:10:59very sophisticated way very early
2:11:01because the devouring mother the edle
2:11:02mother is the shadow side of compassion
2:11:06I've been trying to come up with the
2:11:08term for this for a while I like Ming
2:11:10things into existence giving them names
2:11:12useful uh and at the moment the best one
2:11:15I've got is the the shallow Pond of
2:11:17empathy which is at the moment
2:11:21something which appeases people and does
2:11:24not cause them any discomfort
2:11:26immediately is always prioritized even
2:11:29if the net effect of that over the
2:11:30longterm results in their suffering
2:11:32absolutely that's exactly what that's
2:11:35exactly what the edle situation is it's
2:11:38the prioritization of short-term
2:11:40emotional Comfort over medium to
2:11:43long-term thriving right cuz the mother
2:11:46who kicks the child out of the nest says
2:11:48this is going to hurt now
2:11:52but the iterating consequences are
2:11:54positive Michelangelo's PA right exactly
2:11:57that's right that's right and it's
2:11:59that's exactly right and the and the
2:12:01moral of that story is is that if you
2:12:03give up your children to the world you
2:12:05will keep them right that's the
2:12:08sacrifice of Abraham is Abraham is
2:12:11called upon by God to sacrifice his son
2:12:14and he says yes so he doesn't have to
2:12:17right you have to offer up your children
2:12:19to be broken by the world or or you lose
2:12:21them you undermine them you destroy them
2:12:24it's very it's a very paradoxical truth
2:12:28we were talking about
2:12:30patterns Cain is the pattern of
2:12:32inappropriate sacrifice he does
2:12:35everything second rate he lies he omits
2:12:40he prevaricates he pretends he doesn't
2:12:43offer his best ables the opposite he
2:12:46offers his best which means he's comp
2:12:48his light is shining on the hill right
2:12:51there's no hiding he's giving it
2:12:53everything he's got the Covenant with
2:12:56God is that if you give it everything
2:12:57you've got you will prevail and that's
2:13:00what God tells Cain which to go through
2:13:03some of the threads from today Instinct
2:13:05staying true to that instinct honesty
2:13:08saying what you mean not prioritizing
2:13:12avoiding uh someone else's or your
2:13:15discomfort in the short term in order to
2:13:17believe that this is something which is
2:13:18going to make you feel better over the
2:13:19long term I have a well that's a kind of
2:13:22sacrifice right there is that you're
2:13:23willing to sacrifice your
2:13:26shortterm physiological and
2:13:28psychological comfort for a medium to
2:13:31long-term benefit it's the essence of
2:13:33sacrifice to offer the this is this is
2:13:36something the atheists don't understand
2:13:38about the biblical narrative is that the
2:13:40narrative insists that we live in a
2:13:42sacrificial relationship it's the
2:13:43essence of humanity to live in a
2:13:45sacrificial relationship it's like well
2:13:47is that true or not
2:13:49well as you m
2:13:51sure your relationships are more
2:13:54sacrificial it's less about what you in
2:13:57your narrow sense want right now and
2:14:00it's more about what's good over the
2:14:01medium to long run including other
2:14:04people well that's a sacrificial
2:14:06relationship now the Covenant you know
2:14:08and this is a matter of Faith it's the
2:14:11matter of the deepest
2:14:13Faith do you are you willing to act out
2:14:16the proposition that the way to make the
2:14:20world reveal itself to you in its most
2:14:23positive guise is for you to adopt the
2:14:27most appropriate sacrificial
2:14:28relationship well it's a big risk isn't
2:14:30it because you have to give up
2:14:32everything that's the that's the deal
2:14:34you give up everything that's low
2:14:37everything everything well that's what
2:14:38the Christian passion is because the
2:14:41Christian passion is an archetypal story
2:14:43because Christ is the person who
2:14:46sacrifices
2:14:48everything thoroughly
2:14:51100% And the biblical notion is that
2:14:54there's no difference between that and
2:14:57the Descent of the god of the Old
2:14:59Testament
2:15:01into into into the space of human
2:15:04reality so God is elaborated as a spirit
2:15:09in the Old Testament that's way of
2:15:11thinking about it fleshed out right into
2:15:14the law and the prophets and Christ
2:15:16presents himself as the embodiment of
2:15:18that so imagine here's a way of thinking
2:15:20about it
2:15:21you can invite various spirits to
2:15:24possess you that's what you do when you
2:15:26give way to Rage that's what you do when
2:15:29you give way to lust let's say you allow
2:15:34spirits to possess you well what would
2:15:37you be like if you did nothing but allow
2:15:40the highest of spirits to possess you
2:15:43well that's the question that's put
2:15:44forth in the New Testament and part of
2:15:47the answer to that is
2:15:51if you allowed the highest of all
2:15:53possible spirits to possess you you
2:15:56would be able to confront everything
2:15:58that life could possibly throw at you
2:16:00and that's what happens in the Christian
2:16:01passion because the worst that life can
2:16:04throw at you is the worst tragedy and
2:16:06the worst tragedy is the worst death the
2:16:09worst and most painful death inflicted
2:16:11on the least deserving person right
2:16:14that's the ultimate reach of tragedy
2:16:17okay that's not enough Christ has to
2:16:19confront that and and he has to confront
2:16:21malevolence that's the harrowing of hell
2:16:24so the idea is that to adapt fully to
2:16:26life you have to allow yourself to be
2:16:29possessed by the spirit that will enable
2:16:31you to voluntarily face unjust suffering
2:16:35and death and evil it's like well you
2:16:39got an argument against that how could
2:16:41it be any other way one of the things
2:16:44that I think I see people respond to
2:16:46this degree of pressure when they think
2:16:49about what is going happen long term uh
2:16:53I have discomfort that is in front of me
2:16:55now that I need to face that I need to
2:16:57go through if I'm going to get to
2:16:59Something in the future that I think
2:17:00that I'm supposed to do and one of the
2:17:02solutions that they come up with which
2:17:03isn't a solution but it kind of is to
2:17:05them is I'm not going to do anything
2:17:07yeah you know that uh no decision is
2:17:12kind of the same as a neutral a neutral
2:17:14Choice one of my friends Alex has got
2:17:16this quote which I love and he says the
2:17:18heaviest things in life aren't iron and
2:17:20gold but unmade decisions the reason you
2:17:23are stressed is that you have decisions
2:17:25to make and you're not making them yeah
2:17:28yeah that's yeah yeah no doubt about it
2:17:31well there's no
2:17:34indecision right there's
2:17:37only because you
2:17:40age like you pay for your you pay for
2:17:44your indecision it's a decision it's a
2:17:46decision to avoid
2:17:48fundamentally no and part of the
2:17:51moral that's embedded in the story of
2:17:54Job And in the Christian passion is that
2:17:57you can Master what you'll
2:17:59face and maybe that's true maybe that's
2:18:03true I mean the clinical literature
2:18:05seems to indicate that it's true because
2:18:07one of the things you do if you're
2:18:10a competent
2:18:12clinician is you look at what people are
2:18:15attempting to accomplish and and maybe
2:18:18that needs some retooling but let's
2:18:20assume that they have a goal in mind
2:18:22that would work right you've talked it
2:18:25through with them strategically they
2:18:27have a well-laid out Vision okay now
2:18:29they're laying out the vision and they
2:18:32encounter impediments that stop them and
2:18:34maybe they're impediments that make them
2:18:36afraid and paralyze them and so then
2:18:38what you do is
2:18:40you decompose the impediment just as we
2:18:43talked about earlier until you find a
2:18:46way they can
2:18:47advance that constitutes a genuine
2:18:50advance that they'll actually do so what
2:18:52you do is you take the problem and you
2:18:54narrow it until they'll face it okay
2:18:56then they face it then what happens they
2:18:59get more competent that's what happens
2:19:02and then they get better at facing all
2:19:04problems so they don't just learn how to
2:19:05deal with that specific problem they
2:19:08learn a lesson that generalizes across
2:19:10problems they get braver when you do
2:19:12when you use exposure therapy people
2:19:15don't get less afraid they get braver
2:19:18that's way better cuz braver braver
2:19:20moves from situation to situation okay
2:19:22so the question is here here's the
2:19:25question if you faced everything that
2:19:28was put in front of you who would you be
2:19:32well the answer the biblical answer is
2:19:34you'd be a true Son of God that's the
2:19:36biblical answer it's like well do you
2:19:38believe that well it depends on what you
2:19:40mean by
2:19:41believe do you think that you do you
2:19:44have a better bet than facing what's
2:19:47there well you just have to be sensible
2:19:49about it for a moment it's like is your
2:19:52theory that you're going to adapt better
2:19:55using falsehood and
2:19:56avoidance because that's the contrary
2:19:59Theory you either face
2:20:02it and you do that predicated on the
2:20:05faith that something in you will respond
2:20:07if you do or you don't face it those
2:20:10that's it those are the options if you
2:20:13don't face it that's Faith too that's
2:20:15faith in the notion that avoidance and
2:20:18deception will
2:20:21suffice I think that for a lot of people
2:20:23it's it's born out of fear it's born out
2:20:26of being a people pleaser yeah and not
2:20:29wanting to hurt other people around you
2:20:31and not wanting to tell them things that
2:20:32they don't want to hear or not doing or
2:20:33saying things that you know are going to
2:20:35upset the people that are around you
2:20:36right but in the short term again yeah
2:20:38in the short term again you know if if
2:20:40you look at a good mother a good mother
2:20:43upsets her kids a lot quit doing that
2:20:46why well why why not just let your
2:20:48children do exactly what they want when
2:20:50they answer to that is well first of all
2:20:52it terrifies them because kids actually
2:20:54want they want walls they don't want to
2:20:57be in the desert doing anything they
2:20:59want they want a wall space in which
2:21:02they have the optimal amount of Freedom
2:21:05so a person who truly loves someone else
2:21:10doesn't strive at all cost never to
2:21:12upset them that's that's the devouring
2:21:16mother if if you love someone well
2:21:19that's the biblical quote you chastise
2:21:22them well what does it mean it's like
2:21:24look if you love someone and they're
2:21:25doing something stupid and
2:21:26self-destructive and you can see it it's
2:21:29incumbent on you to say you know this is
2:21:31going to upset you but as far as I can
2:21:33tell you're doing something stupid and
2:21:36self-destructive and then there's going
2:21:38to be a tussle about that because
2:21:40they're going to say well who are you to
2:21:41judge and that's a perfectly good
2:21:43question is what makes you think you're
2:21:45right and here's the reasons I'm doing
2:21:47this and you know these are the Terrible
2:21:50experien that I've had that have led me
2:21:52to take this path and sometimes that can
2:21:54be really compelling you know you meet
2:21:56people who are bitter and resentful and
2:21:57then they tell you about their life and
2:21:59you think well yeah
2:22:02but but then you meet people who've had
2:22:05just as terrible a life who aren't
2:22:06bitter and resentful right and they're
2:22:08doing better and so even if it seems
2:22:11justifiable maybe even if it is
2:22:13justifiable it's not justifiable one of
2:22:16the most common situations I think that
2:22:18this people pleasing tendency would show
2:22:20up is someone who maybe thinks that they
2:22:22should break up with a relationship but
2:22:24doesn't do it and sticks about in order
2:22:25to protect their partner and I found a
2:22:29thread on Reddit that was five questions
2:22:32to ask yourself if you're unsure about
2:22:34your
2:22:35relationship if someone told you you're
2:22:37a lot like your partner would this be a
2:22:39compliment to you are you truly
2:22:42fulfilled or just less lonely are you
2:22:45able to be unapologetically yourself or
2:22:48do you feel the need to show up
2:22:49differently to police is your partner
2:22:51are you in love with who your partner is
2:22:53right now as a whole or are you only in
2:22:55love with their good side their
2:22:57potential or the idea of them and would
2:23:00you want your future or imagined child
2:23:02to date someone like your partner and
2:23:05this thread was just filled with people
2:23:07having existential crisis and it seemed
2:23:09to me to
2:23:10be a collection of people who had
2:23:13managed to believe that continuing to
2:23:17Manana Manana the short-term MH
2:23:19postponement of the discomfort of the
2:23:22decision that they wanted to have around
2:23:24their partner uh was somehow the noble
2:23:28thing to do or the good thing to do or
2:23:30The Virtuous thing to do or the thing
2:23:31that ultimately would result in the best
2:23:33outcome even though they knew that if
2:23:35they spread it out long enough and then
2:23:37it's just hidden we just shov under the
2:23:38rug so yeah that uh list of five
2:23:41questions I think uh well in most
2:23:43relationships you can break up or you
2:23:44can have a thousand
2:23:46fights you know and if you have a
2:23:48thousand fights then you don't have to
2:23:50fight
2:23:51you make peace that way you know because
2:23:54you're different than your partner so
2:23:55there's things to work out there and you
2:23:58might think about that as a compromise
2:24:00but it's not it's
2:24:01that you're different than your partner
2:24:04and you have to find a game that you
2:24:05both want to play that's not a
2:24:07compromise that's a solution it's like
2:24:09you bring your skills to the table and I
2:24:12bring my skills to the table and then we
2:24:13figure out some game we can play where
2:24:15we're both optimally utilized and it's a
2:24:17better game than we can play alone
2:24:19that's not a compromise
2:24:21well but getting to that very difficult
2:24:23and people bring all sorts of baggage to
2:24:25a relationship and you have to it's just
2:24:28like disciplining children really it's
2:24:30the same thing your children are you
2:24:34note your children are annoying you you
2:24:35can note that oh there I'm being annoyed
2:24:37by my child okay so what questions do
2:24:39you ask am I a tyrannical son of a [ __ ]
2:24:42who's touchy well that's why you need
2:24:43your wife cuz you can go ask her my kids
2:24:46are annoying me am I a tyrannical son of
2:24:48a [ __ ] who's touchy and she said said
2:24:50yeah you probably need something to eat
2:24:51or you're a bit of a prick that way and
2:24:53you got to listen because maybe it's you
2:24:55or maybe she says yeah that goddamn
2:24:57child's been getting on my case too and
2:24:59then you ask each other are we mutually
2:25:01tyrants it's like no that kid's annoying
2:25:06okay do we want him to be
2:25:08annoying well if you love your child
2:25:11then the answer to that would be no
2:25:14because if he's annoying you he's going
2:25:15to annoy other people he's going to
2:25:17annoy his potential friends he's going
2:25:18to annoy other adults he's going to go
2:25:20through the world being annoying and
2:25:22everyone's going to frown at him that's
2:25:24not helpful so then you could just fix
2:25:27it and you're that's going to cause some
2:25:29short-term upset you know you're maybe
2:25:32you have a like a 13-month-old child
2:25:34who's very extroverted and disagreeable
2:25:37who like rules the roost and every time
2:25:39the mother goes more than a foot away
2:25:41from her she has a squawk fit because
2:25:44she's learned to control maybe the
2:25:47mother you know was still tied up with
2:25:49infant care and can't put down a
2:25:51boundary and so now you have to do
2:25:54something about this emerging monster of
2:25:55a 14-month-old child and one of the
2:25:58things you do is every time the child is
2:26:00bossy first of all you note it and you
2:26:03note that you're not very fond of
2:26:04yourself for being tyrannized by a
2:26:0714-month-old that's a bit of a status
2:26:10hit like it should be so you have to
2:26:12notice I'm annoyed by this child then I
2:26:14should do something about it well it's
2:26:16going to cause short-term emotional
2:26:18distress the same thing UR when you're
2:26:20dealing with your partner it's like
2:26:22you're annoying me okay now maybe that's
2:26:26me so I should bloody well maybe we
2:26:28should have a talk about that you're
2:26:30annoying me convince me that it's me and
2:26:34I should listen because maybe it's me
2:26:36and if I'm annoyed about you and I
2:26:38shouldn't be I should fix that but maybe
2:26:40it's you so let's find out exactly
2:26:43what's going on you know and that'll
2:26:44usually man that's that'll there's just
2:26:47constant thrust and counter thrust in
2:26:49the discuss discussion like that and
2:26:51usually you know the conversation will
2:26:53circle around whatever the hell the
2:26:55issue is till you get to the bottom of
2:26:56it and God only knows where that is but
2:26:59then maybe you can sort it out you know
2:27:01and if you sort out enough of those
2:27:02things you live in peace and that's
2:27:05something worth attaining you know and
2:27:07I've thought forever in my marriage
2:27:09there's nothing there's nothing too
2:27:11small to fight about now you know I put
2:27:15in some rules that I used to have with
2:27:16my clients too it's like if someone bugs
2:27:19you you should note that and you
2:27:23shouldn't do anything about it probably
2:27:25if they bug you twice the same way then
2:27:28you think oh okay that's twice but
2:27:31probably still you shouldn't do anything
2:27:33about it but if they bug you three times
2:27:34then you can
2:27:36say here's what you just did and they'll
2:27:39say well no I didn't do that and then
2:27:40you say yeah you did and you did exactly
2:27:43the same thing in this other situation
2:27:46and you did exactly the same thing in
2:27:47this other situation so don't be telling
2:27:49me you didn't do it cuz you did it three
2:27:51times and I watched okay now they come
2:27:54up with reasons they did it and maybe
2:27:56some of them have to do with what a
2:27:57stupid son of a [ __ ] you are and you
2:27:59should listen because maybe they're
2:28:02right but that's at least the beginnings
2:28:04of the process by which you unravel the
2:28:06problems you want to figure out well we
2:28:08don't want to do this this isn't the way
2:28:11we want to treat each other we want to
2:28:13get to a place
2:28:16where we want to get to a place where
2:28:19our whole life is like the best moments
2:28:21of the best dates we ever
2:28:23had that's a good goal and that's that's
2:28:27that's attainable it you got to work man
2:28:32there's there's a the scene in the in
2:28:36Genesis God throws Adam and Eve out of
2:28:39paradise because of their pride their
2:28:42sin of
2:28:44Pride they each have their own
2:28:46particular version of that sin Eve's sin
2:28:48and Adam's but they get thrown out of
2:28:49paradise anyways for pride and God puts
2:28:53cherubs at the gates of paradise and the
2:28:56cherubs they're kind of these monstrous
2:28:58Angels terrifying figures and they hold
2:29:01swords that are on fire that turn Every
2:29:03Witch Way and burn and you might say
2:29:06well what does that mean and it means
2:29:08that well a sword is something that cuts
2:29:11away right a sharp blade and a and fire
2:29:15is something that burns and a sword that
2:29:18Burns Burns and cuts away and a sword
2:29:21that burns and
2:29:23turns every which way is a burning sword
2:29:27from which nothing can
2:29:29escape okay now you want to walk into
2:29:32Paradise everything that isn't worthy in
2:29:35you has to be burned and cut away right
2:29:37well that's what that conflict is in a
2:29:39relationship you know it's like that's
2:29:43not suitable for Paradise what does it
2:29:46have to do it has to be cast into the
2:29:48outer Darkness where there will will be
2:29:50nashing of teeth right it has to be cut
2:29:53away and destroyed and everything that
2:29:56isn't worthy has to go well the
2:29:59Michelangelo effect is all about you and
2:30:02your partner becoming the idealized
2:30:03version of each other right you are
2:30:06going to do for me the things that I
2:30:08want within your parameters of control
2:30:11that you want to be the best partner for
2:30:12me and I want to do the same for you and
2:30:14we're both going to communicate to each
2:30:16other and we're going to stand our
2:30:18ground where we have boundaries and
2:30:19we're going to Contin to compromise
2:30:21that's what love should do that's what
2:30:23love should do like if you love
2:30:25someone if it's genuine love you
2:30:30see you see their hidden Soul that's a
2:30:33good way of thinking about it you get a
2:30:35glimpse of the light that they could
2:30:37reveal to the world if they revealed it
2:30:39that's what you see and then to act in
2:30:42love is to encourage that to come
2:30:44forward and to discourage anything that
2:30:45gets in its way that's why I love the
2:30:49the Michelangelo effect heard of and I'd
2:30:50been using it okay so why the
2:30:51Michelangelo effect this is why
2:30:53Michelangelo sees this huge massive UNH
2:30:57block I see I see and inside of that he
2:31:00is able to see davidh and over time
2:31:03slowly he will chip away and he will
2:31:04chip away and he will chip away so you
2:31:06see something that isn't there that's
2:31:08inside of the thing which is rough and
2:31:10UNH and uncivilized and undomesticated
2:31:13and rambunctious and and sometimes
2:31:16terrible and you were able to from that
2:31:19Al that's actually part of the daing the
2:31:22uncarved block so a child is an uncarved
2:31:25Block in in in the dowst view and and
2:31:29you remove everything that's excess
2:31:32until what's perfect remains right and
2:31:35that's see the the logos in the Old and
2:31:39New Testament the logos that creates the
2:31:41world is the judging faculty
2:31:46that what would you say that separates
2:31:49the wheat from the
2:31:50chaff right and it's not it's compassion
2:31:54in a sense because if you're
2:31:56compassionate towards someone you want
2:31:58what's best for them all things
2:31:59considered but that compassion in the
2:32:02highest sense can't exist without
2:32:04judgment because the judgment is this
2:32:07part of you isn't worthy to continue and
2:32:09certainly that's what you're doing with
2:32:11your children when you see them
2:32:12misbehaving you think no that's no not
2:32:16that not that something more
2:32:18sophisticated even with my little
2:32:20granddaughter the other day she's very
2:32:22very playful and she's a very nice
2:32:24little girl she's very playful and very
2:32:26fun and funny and not neurotic and so
2:32:29she's a pleasure to be around but she
2:32:31hasn't seen me for a while and so she
2:32:33was poking me getting me to chase her
2:32:35around and poking me and she'd come up
2:32:36and give me a whack you know and at one
2:32:39point she whacked me too hard and she
2:32:41knew it and I said that's not fun that's
2:32:44not acceptable and then she stopped but
2:32:46she was playing with that edge trying to
2:32:49find out where fun is and you know can
2:32:51how hard can I hit Grandpa she doesn't
2:32:53bloody well know she kind of knows but
2:32:55she needs to know exactly well I can't
2:32:58let her get away with it because then
2:33:00she's not fun to play with she has to
2:33:02learn to come and give her Grandpa a
2:33:04whack and exactly the way that elicits a
2:33:06playful response and that isn't annoying
2:33:09and so there's a very you know you might
2:33:11think well it's pretty harsh judgment to
2:33:13lay on a 5-year-old it's like no it's
2:33:15not I would like her to be the most fun
2:33:17kid to play with that she could be right
2:33:19and so I'm not going to pretend that
2:33:20it's okay when it's not not setting that
2:33:22boundary is almost like a curse it is a
2:33:25curse yeah there you go away we would
2:33:27because then how's she going to play
2:33:28with other with other kids if she
2:33:30doesn't know the they're not going to be
2:33:32as forgiving as Grandpa definitely not
2:33:35yeah we were talking before we got
2:33:36started I had this conversation with
2:33:38Robert spolski and it it was really
2:33:41really profound I mean I know that he's
2:33:42a brilliant guy and this new book of his
2:33:44is about sort of Free Will and
2:33:45determinism which has got an upper bound
2:33:47on how interesting that is for me but he
2:33:51gave this quotee to Andrew hubman where
2:33:53he said dopamine is not about the
2:33:55pursuit of happiness it is about the
2:33:57happiness of pursuit right that's
2:33:59definitely right and I I haven't been
2:34:01able to stop seeing this everywhere so
2:34:03uh Morgan housel um a friend told me
2:34:05this great story uh he is an investor
2:34:09he's got a fund he's an author he's got
2:34:10a family he's got all of these things
2:34:12they plan to go away in holiday and
2:34:15they've been planning it for a long time
2:34:16and with the kids and the wife and him
2:34:18and all of his businesses it was a
2:34:20arduous thing to go through to get
2:34:21themselves out there and finally they
2:34:24get there after the journey and the
2:34:25plane and the children and the crying
2:34:26and all the rest of it and he walks out
2:34:28on the balcony on the first night of
2:34:30this holiday that they've planned for
2:34:31forever and his first thought to himself
2:34:34was wouldn't it be great if we came back
2:34:36here next year it would be so great if
2:34:39we could come back here next year so
2:34:41literally during the supposed enjoyment
2:34:44of the destination he was already
2:34:47thinking about the journey and you know
2:34:49it's not the journey it's not the
2:34:50destination it's the journey is kind of
2:34:52TR but it it puts a new perspective on
2:34:53it there is no destination each
2:34:56destination is simply the beginning of
2:34:58the next journey and I haven't not been
2:35:00I haven't not been able to see it I see
2:35:02it I see it everywhere I see it
2:35:03everywhere in my own life well there's
2:35:04there's technically two different forms
2:35:06of reward there's consumatory reward and
2:35:09so that's the reward that's what an
2:35:11orgasm is it's consumatory reward it's
2:35:14it it brings the behavioral and
2:35:17perceptual sequence to a halt it ends it
2:35:20right at the climax it ends it but then
2:35:22it's over that journey is over right
2:35:26then there's the dopaminergic reward
2:35:28that spolski was talking about and
2:35:30dopaminergic reward is evidence of
2:35:32advancement towards a goal right okay so
2:35:36so there's a corollary to
2:35:38that well how do you become optimally
2:35:42engaged because dopamine facilitates
2:35:45engagement and focus which is why drugs
2:35:48like amphetamines can be used for kids
2:35:51who
2:35:52are attention deficit disordered you T
2:35:56tap up the dopamine response they lock
2:35:58on right okay so they're locking on to a
2:36:00goal directed Pursuit the problem with
2:36:03amphetamines is that they can lock you
2:36:05on so hard you can't get out of the
2:36:08frame so like kids on amphetamines will
2:36:11obsess for example about cleaning up
2:36:12their closet they can't switch to the
2:36:14next activity okay dopaminergic reward
2:36:17is reward that's accured in relation
2:36:19ship to a goal okay so what what's an
2:36:22implication of that well pursue the
2:36:24highest possible goal well why because
2:36:27the kick from advancement is higher now
2:36:30you have to balance that it can't be you
2:36:33have to advance right because imagine
2:36:35the rewards got two components number
2:36:37one is you're moving towards something
2:36:40valuable okay so you want it to be as
2:36:42valuable as possible okay but you have
2:36:45to be moving so it can't be so valuable
2:36:48that it's out of your reach to the Moon
2:36:50I'm not going to be able to see every
2:36:51single increment that I make yes you
2:36:54want to get to the moon that's right you
2:36:56can't walk there so it's a bad plan you
2:36:58need something extremely valuable that
2:37:00you can move towards okay so part of the
2:37:03reason that you establish a relationship
2:37:06with God let's say is because that's
2:37:09what sets the upper bound to your vision
2:37:12it's like I want things to be the best
2:37:14they could be that's a vision of
2:37:16paradise well that has to be
2:37:17fractionated into you know your proximal
2:37:21decisions but lurking behind that should
2:37:23be this continual movement towards what
2:37:26would you say a heaven that Reeds as you
2:37:28approach it that's a proper vision of
2:37:30Heaven A Heaven is a place that's
2:37:32perfect and getting
2:37:34better both at the same time that's what
2:37:37music shows you because a great piece of
2:37:39music is perfect but it's just getting
2:37:41better as it unfolds and and you need
2:37:44that this is part of the problem with a
2:37:46static utopian Vision something dovi
2:37:48criticized
2:37:50if you gave people Nothing But
2:37:52consumatory reward he famously says so
2:37:55that they can do nothing but sit in tubs
2:37:57of hot water eat cake and busy
2:38:00themselves with the with the
2:38:01continuation of the species human beings
2:38:04would break that all to Hell in a moment
2:38:06just so they have something interesting
2:38:08to do what was that quote that you said
2:38:11on Rogan years
2:38:13ago if we were to make the world
2:38:16sufficiently perfect the only desired
2:38:18lack would be for the desire of lack
2:38:20itself what's that kard what's the
2:38:22what's the proper can you remember the
2:38:23prop well kirkgard pointed out that if
2:38:27we if as we make the world easier and
2:38:30easier so this is perhaps part of the
2:38:32problem with the material plenty that's
2:38:34at hand is that at some point what
2:38:37becomes lacking is lack itself yes right
2:38:40yes exactly exactly it's optimal
2:38:43deprivation you know and if everything
2:38:45is delivered to you on a platter it's
2:38:46like what the hell are you even doing
2:38:48there this happens in the the story of
2:38:50Abraham so Abraham who's the father of
2:38:53Nations right so Abraham gets it right
2:38:57he has everything at the beginning of
2:38:58the story he has Rich parents he has
2:39:02he's he's got nothing that he has to do
2:39:05he's like 70 when the story opens he's
2:39:08been taken care of hand and foot his
2:39:10whole life and the voice of God comes to
2:39:13him and says I'm the god of your
2:39:14ancestors telling you get out of your
2:39:17zone of comfort get out into the world
2:39:20and Abraham's pretty old by this point
2:39:22but for whatever reason he decides that
2:39:24he's going to forgo the comfort for the
2:39:28adventure and then as Abraham progresses
2:39:31he makes the requisite sacrifices each
2:39:34becoming more difficult as he ascends
2:39:37and he adopts this pattern of
2:39:38relationship with the god that calls him
2:39:41to Adventure that literally makes him
2:39:43the father of Nations and so you can
2:39:45even think about that biologically if
2:39:47you want you might as well
2:39:50people like Dawkins think reproduction
2:39:52is
2:39:54sex and that's why he can talk for
2:39:57example about the selfish Gene making
2:39:59itself manifest in sex reproduction
2:40:01isn't
2:40:02sex sex is a necessary but insufficient
2:40:06precondition for
2:40:07reproduction Abraham adopts a motive
2:40:11being a sacrificial motive being that
2:40:14establishes the optimal environment for
2:40:16his sons who then establish the op
2:40:19optimal environment for their sons and
2:40:21their sons and their sons so you can
2:40:23imagine that what Abraham is doing this
2:40:25is what the story means is he's adopting
2:40:27a mode of behavior that works best All
2:40:31Things Considered across multiple
2:40:33generations and he sacrifices everything
2:40:36to that it's this incredibly expansive
2:40:38Vision given that we're in a world which
2:40:40is comfortable
2:40:43and we we have created buildings in
2:40:46which there are heavy things that you
2:40:48pick up and put down in in the same
2:40:49place because it's simply so rare that
2:40:51you have to pick up heavy things
2:40:54right bumps on our roads for the same
2:40:56reason proliferation of ice baths and
2:40:58sauner and and and and even reading to
2:41:02some extent you know difficult reading
2:41:04difficult
2:41:04things where should people go given that
2:41:08they are in a a world which is more
2:41:10comfortable than ever before where
2:41:13should they go to encourage them to find
2:41:16difficult things truth
2:41:19truth is what's optimally difficult the
2:41:22truth is optimally difficult that's a
2:41:25really wonderful thing to know the truth
2:41:27is Adventure there's no there's no
2:41:29distinction partly
2:41:32because if you're going to just say what
2:41:35you believe to be true you have to let
2:41:36go of the consequences you can't predict
2:41:38the
2:41:39consequences well there's no difference
2:41:41between not being able to predict the
2:41:43consequences in having an adventure
2:41:45they're the same thing right if you knew
2:41:48the consequences it would be an
2:41:49adventure it's not an adventure if if
2:41:51the if the consequences are forgone the
2:41:53same as it's no sacrifice or courage if
2:41:55there's no risk right right right it's
2:41:59exactly the same and so it's a it's a
2:42:03wonderful thing to know that optimized
2:42:06Adventure is to be had in the truth I
2:42:08think in every given situation so Christ
2:42:12says in The Sermon on the Mount that to
2:42:14orient yourself properly and it's often
2:42:16viewed as this hippie pay on take no
2:42:19thought of the moral the moral will take
2:42:20care of itself you know God takes care
2:42:23of The Sparrows he'll certainly take
2:42:24care of you it's like a hippie wet dream
2:42:27it isn't what that isn't the that isn't
2:42:30the core of the message the the core of
2:42:32the message is very straightforward
2:42:34Christ says aim up to the highest thing
2:42:37you can possibly imagine so that's the
2:42:39relationship with God you put what's at
2:42:42the Pinnacle properly at the Pinnacle
2:42:44and you aim at that and
2:42:47then you
2:42:50concentrate that and it's that and
2:42:52treating other people like you would
2:42:54like to be treated yourself that sets
2:42:56the moral frame then you attend to the
2:42:59day and the cares of the day it's like
2:43:02once you've established the proper moral
2:43:04frame you pay attention to the day and
2:43:05you live in truth and that moves you
2:43:08towards that destination you have to
2:43:10have the orientation right you have to
2:43:11be aiming up but then it's just a matter
2:43:14of what would you say abiding by the
2:43:17truth that's the logos that sets people
2:43:20free and that's right doing it properly
2:43:22right there was one of the other rules
2:43:24that didn't make it into your book uh
2:43:27nothing Well Done is insignificant right
2:43:29right right right yeah well you acrew so
2:43:32Christ tells his followers in the
2:43:34gospels to to store up treasure in
2:43:37heaven not in the places that MTH can
2:43:40eat and rust can destroy well what is
2:43:42that what is meant by that well it's
2:43:44meant by the same it means the same
2:43:47thing that you just pointed to which is
2:43:48that
2:43:49if you run yourself through a disciplin
2:43:51disciplinary process so you accomplish
2:43:54something maybe it doesn't you don't
2:43:56attain the goal you were aiming at but
2:43:58you acrw a new way of looking at the
2:44:00world and a set of skills well if you
2:44:02just keep doing that you have multiple
2:44:04ways of looking at the world in more and
2:44:06more skill well that's that's your
2:44:09Storehouse of treasure you
2:44:11know the reason women use wealth as a
2:44:15proxy for attractiveness is because
2:44:17wealth is a proxy for competence it's
2:44:20not competence because you can be rich
2:44:22and useless now it's not that easy but
2:44:24it can at least happen temporarily but
2:44:27women use markers of wealth to assess
2:44:30competence and the competence is the
2:44:32treasure not the wealth because if
2:44:35you're competent you could be thrown
2:44:36into the desert and you'll make it Bloom
2:44:39I've said this about uh people that go
2:44:40to the gym so from the outside someone
2:44:43that goes to the gym and has got a good
2:44:44body or whatever there the body and it
2:44:46this is what you get to touch during sex
2:44:48when you're into
2:44:53but they is more important I think than
2:44:58the way that it manifests physically
2:45:00it's someone who is reliable who is able
2:45:02to overcome hard things who is self
2:45:05disiplined it's just this whole big long
2:45:07laundry list of things that they're able
2:45:09to uh deal with pain and discomfort
2:45:11which is kind of sexy in a way uh well
2:45:14it's the perfect it's the perfect
2:45:16materialist disciplinary strategy right
2:45:19because it's very concrete well you
2:45:20change your body it's like is that a
2:45:22spiritual Pursuit well it is in so far
2:45:24as it requires you know long-term
2:45:27discipline and and sacrifice and you
2:45:30might hope and I think this is likely
2:45:31the case that you know you can get stuck
2:45:34in the bodily self-improvement Niche and
2:45:38and focus on that too obsessively but
2:45:40you can also use it as a stepping stone
2:45:43to discipline Pursuit itself and lots of
2:45:45people do that I think I told you the
2:45:47last time that we chatted about Mano
2:45:49pause this thing that I'd come up with
2:45:51so I noticed toward the end of my 20s
2:45:54that lots of guys who had been training
2:45:57with a particular modality usually
2:45:59bodybuilding usually exclusively for the
2:46:01way that they looked realized as they
2:46:03approached their 30s that they were
2:46:05getting out of breath going up a set of
2:46:06stairs and that they maybe couldn't
2:46:07touch their toes and they looked
2:46:09fantastic but I know they they just felt
2:46:12like they should maybe start to Value
2:46:13different things and they then changed
2:46:16their training and they would go and do
2:46:17Brazilian jiu-jitsu or yoga or CrossFit
2:46:20or you know some other form of whatever
2:46:23and that precipitated a change in
2:46:26everything else and I saw this in myself
2:46:29right I get toward the end of my 20s
2:46:30I've achieved success in many of the
2:46:32ways that Society tells a young man that
2:46:34he should value success there was a
2:46:36discordance something fell off and you
2:46:39then think okay
2:46:40well maybe I need to assess whether or
2:46:43not the things that I've been told I
2:46:45should want are things that I actually
2:46:47want to want and very quickly you
2:46:50realize and I don't know it feels like a
2:46:52quarterlife crisis I think so many men
2:46:54go through this they go I either
2:46:56succeeded or didn't succeed at a game
2:46:58that I was told that I was supposed to
2:46:59Value playing and upon reflection I
2:47:02really don't care for it as much as I
2:47:04thought I did maybe there was some
2:47:05elements I was so proud of what i' done
2:47:07with my business partners I was so proud
2:47:09of the things that we'd achieved but
2:47:10then there was other stuff where I was
2:47:11like why have I attach so much of my
2:47:13sense of self worth into this and this
2:47:15and this and then you start you have to
2:47:18assess and M the so this is what happens
2:47:20in the story of Exodus when Moses en
2:47:23encounters the burning
2:47:24bush so he's just going about his
2:47:26business as a shepherd and he's doing
2:47:29all right he's got two wives he likes
2:47:30his father-in-law he's well regarded in
2:47:33this new country that he's in he's left
2:47:35Egypt where there's a price on his head
2:47:37essentially for killing a Egyptian who
2:47:39was Tor tormenting a uh one of the
2:47:42Hebrews anyways Moses is just going
2:47:44about his business as a Shepherd which
2:47:46was a very tough job in those days and
2:47:48this thing catches his eye this this
2:47:51glimmer this gleam and he goes to
2:47:53investigate okay so what what does that
2:47:54mean it means as you're progressing
2:47:56through life something will capture your
2:47:57interest and in the story you just told
2:48:00it's like somebody decides they're going
2:48:01to start going to the gym there's
2:48:03something about becoming physically fit
2:48:05that calls to them right which is an
2:48:08interesting thing right because it calls
2:48:10to them it's not even necessarily a
2:48:12decision they make it's more like a
2:48:15possibility that makes itself manifest
2:48:17that's of Interest so they decide to
2:48:19pursue it so they look into it more
2:48:21deeply well so Moses approaches the
2:48:23burning bush and he gets closer and
2:48:25closer right and a bush is a symbol of
2:48:28life right like it's a tree a tree of
2:48:31life and a tree of life that's on fire
2:48:34is being that's the life the tree and
2:48:37becoming that's the fire the
2:48:38transformation so a burning bush is a
2:48:40symbol of being and becoming as such now
2:48:43it's something that beckons okay so now
2:48:45you pursue your physical fitness cuz
2:48:47it's called to you and you concentrate
2:48:49more and more on it you get more and
2:48:50more disciplined but as you get more and
2:48:52more disciplined you start to transform
2:48:54right and so your vision starts to
2:48:56change now what happens to Moses is that
2:48:59as he gets closer and closer to the
2:49:00burning bush he starts to realize that
2:49:02he's on sacred ground so he's going
2:49:05deeper the investigation is taking him
2:49:07deeper so he takes off his shoes and and
2:49:09continues to approach he's still going
2:49:11down the same Trail right pursuing this
2:49:13thing and then the voice of God itself
2:49:15speaks to him from the midst of the
2:49:17burning bush and that's what turns him
2:49:19into a leader and so what does the story
2:49:21mean it means that as you walk through
2:49:23life in your normal mode things will
2:49:26call to you and if you pursue them they
2:49:29will take you deep it doesn't really
2:49:31matter what it is that calls what
2:49:33matters is that you pursue it and you
2:49:36you pursue it to the depths and as you
2:49:39pursue it to the depths you will become
2:49:41transformed and if you do that without
2:49:44reservation that will turn you into that
2:49:47will turn you into the person who frees
2:49:49the slaves and opposes the tyrants and
2:49:52that is how it works that's the call and
2:49:56that can happen in any direction
2:49:59virtually any
2:50:00direction you just have to pursue it
2:50:02with sufficient Faith
2:50:06right one of the things that's been I
2:50:09guess derogated a lot by pretty much
2:50:12everybody uh at the moment is University
2:50:14education
2:50:16and I had such an interesting time at
2:50:19University almost exclusively outside of
2:50:22my education right all of the good
2:50:24things that happened to me while I spent
2:50:255 years at
2:50:26Newcastle didn't include what I was
2:50:28taught it was never inside of the
2:50:30lecture theater it was everything I was
2:50:31doing outside of that and lots of my
2:50:34friends it's very trendy on the internet
2:50:36to mock higher education as useless
2:50:39pieces of paper uh it's not you don't
2:50:41need it in order to be able to be
2:50:43successful it's certainly the thing that
2:50:44I've ended up doing this podcast didn't
2:50:46require me to go to university maybe in
2:50:48some ways it did M but also from a
2:50:51definitely from a qualification
2:50:52perspective it didn't but I I think I'm
2:50:56still relatively Pro University
2:51:00experience uh and yeah you know you've
2:51:03got Peterson Academy launching which is
2:51:04your new thing I wondered how you
2:51:08thought well basically are universities
2:51:11salvageable given that so much that's
2:51:14good about the university experience has
2:51:16almost nothing to do with the education
2:51:18side of it
2:51:20H are they
2:51:22salvageable some are I
2:51:24imagine um
2:51:27Hillsdale does great it's a conservative
2:51:31College in northeastern us run by Larry
2:51:34AR they have a 1% dropout rate as
2:51:38opposed to the typical 50% dropout rate
2:51:42and they they provide a
2:51:45classical what used to be a liberal
2:51:47education Arts education it's a more
2:51:50conservative Enterprise given how the
2:51:53Overton window has shifted but
2:51:57Larry's students concentrate on physical
2:52:00fitness his philosophy Department tends
2:52:03to meet in the weight room which is
2:52:05pretty interesting he has weight benches
2:52:08scattered all around the campus about a
2:52:09third of the students take music courses
2:52:12so the place is very musical um it's a
2:52:15very disciplined place the quality of
2:52:17education is Extreme extremely high so
2:52:19there are institutes that are holding to
2:52:23their mandate I think that's rare and I
2:52:28think overall the universities have
2:52:29become irretrievably corrupt as far as I
2:52:32can tell and
2:52:35so
2:52:36we had hoped that we could provide
2:52:39something approximating an alternative
2:52:41but you put your finger on one of the
2:52:43complexities in doing that it's easy to
2:52:46think that a university is the
2:52:49transmission of Knowledge from experts
2:52:51to empty vessels the students let's say
2:52:54so it's lectures tests and accreditation
2:52:59but that's not really what a university
2:53:02is it's an apprenticeship if you're
2:53:04fortunate when you go to university you
2:53:05find a professor or two that you can
2:53:07work with who really teach you how to
2:53:11think they're usually those professors
2:53:13are gen generally quite rare and you're
2:53:16fortunate if you do establish a
2:53:17relationship like that especially at a
2:53:19big university where the student to
2:53:21faculty ratio is absurdly high like 200
2:53:24to one I was in lecture theaters that
2:53:25were 300 to one I didn't I didn't get a
2:53:28relationship like that with any of my
2:53:30right right and that's that's that's
2:53:32really not good because you need you
2:53:34need an apprenticeship relationship to
2:53:36become educated fundamentally um we
2:53:39started this we're formulating Peterson
2:53:42Academy we're hoping that we can provide
2:53:45people with extremely high quality
2:53:48lectures I'm fortunate as you are to be
2:53:52able to reach out to people who are
2:53:54charismatic and well educated and we
2:53:57offer them a good Financial deal and we
2:53:59treat them very well and they come down
2:54:01to Miami and they record a relatively
2:54:03short lecture series eight hours and
2:54:07uh we're implementing state-of-the-art
2:54:11testing procedures and we're going to be
2:54:13giving out a certificate that you will
2:54:16have to earn to AC ire and so we're
2:54:20hoping that the quality of our graduates
2:54:22will be such that the certificate will
2:54:24speak to for itself as a marker for
2:54:28conscientiousness and educated expertise
2:54:31we'll see we're also building out the
2:54:35social side of it because as you pointed
2:54:37out a huge part of what happens to you
2:54:39when you go to university is social and
2:54:43socialization you get to make a whole
2:54:46new group of friends it's a big deal
2:54:49right it's a huge it's one of those
2:54:50times in your life where you
2:54:52can parcel off who you were and you can
2:54:55become something new you remember every
2:54:57single summer at least for me maybe this
2:54:59is because I was chronically so
2:55:00unpopular in school I would come back
2:55:02every summer uh imagining that I would
2:55:04be able to reinvent myself I'm going to
2:55:06be the cool kid this year I'm going to
2:55:07be the sporty kid this year or whatever
2:55:08whatever but the big one is a 18 because
2:55:13you're not even in the same town no one
2:55:15even knows who you are no one even knows
2:55:16what to think about who you are right
2:55:18and uh that for me was the big
2:55:22inflection point of me going from the
2:55:24child that I was to the sort of young
2:55:26adult that I was going to end up right
2:55:28right well if you're fortunate you have
2:55:30a number of times where that happens in
2:55:32your life where you can make a
2:55:33relatively clean break and you can
2:55:35Invent Yourself a new right this is just
2:55:38just to interject that
2:55:40like there's an idea called monk mode uh
2:55:43which has kind of become a bit of a meme
2:55:44online but I first read about this years
2:55:46ago uh and it involves uh extended
2:55:48period of um isolation to work on
2:55:52yourself uh to reflect on your flaws to
2:55:55kind of do the inner work to introspect
2:55:59um it's
2:56:00usually tied in with meditation with
2:56:03improving your diet with improving your
2:56:04F physical fitness your mental Fitness
2:56:06all of these different things and uh
2:56:10that I've almost seen it as if doing
2:56:14that and focusing on yourself for a
2:56:16short space of time that's very very you
2:56:18know it's maybe a couple of months
2:56:19really really focusing on you still
2:56:21going about and doing your work and
2:56:22doing the rest of the things but outside
2:56:23of that just really really trying to
2:56:25make yourself as good as possible
2:56:26periodizing that for me was one of the
2:56:30most powerful inflections aside from the
2:56:32lifestyle change well that's what
2:56:35confession is supposed to be
2:56:37fundamentally I mean when you take stock
2:56:40of yourself you
2:56:42confess you confess to yourself and
2:56:49you make your sins a
2:56:52reality you assess yourself for your
2:56:54insufficiency and you Proclaim your
2:56:57insufficiencies and that well then you
2:56:59can start working on them it's like it's
2:57:02painful here's all the things that I'm
2:57:04not here's all the things that I'm not
2:57:07that I would like to be right that's
2:57:09painful self-examination but the
2:57:11advantag is you get all your problems on
2:57:13the table and the advantage to that is
2:57:17that Problem by
2:57:19problem there's likely some hope like
2:57:22for example you said you were unpopular
2:57:24when you were a teenager but that
2:57:26doesn't mean that you had to carry that
2:57:28forward into University right there was
2:57:30a possibility that so how did you get
2:57:33out of that what did you
2:57:35do the main reason I think was that I
2:57:38didn't really understand how to relate
2:57:40to other kids so I found myself
2:57:43obsessing over the way that other kids
2:57:45would wear their shirts or tie their
2:57:47ties or the sort of shoes that they
2:57:48would wear or the right so you were
2:57:50looking at external models
2:57:52or why that's why they had friends and I
2:57:55didn't right and I didn't realize that
2:57:57it was just I
2:58:00wasn't socially Adept I didn't
2:58:03understand how to relate to other kids
2:58:04very well and I think I just got to the
2:58:08stage especially when I went to
2:58:09University that I'd spent enough time
2:58:14for me to have learned at least some
2:58:18rough HED social skills and now finally
2:58:21was able to sort of cast off some of the
2:58:24uh presuppositions that uh had maybe
2:58:27been following me uh because what were
2:58:29the opening points for you like do you
2:58:31remember the first friendship you made
2:58:33in University oh yeah the guys that I
2:58:35lived with so okay so these were these
2:58:37were roommates yeah yeah yeah okay so
2:58:38yeah that's a good op see that's a thing
2:58:40that's hard to duplicate online right
2:58:42because it's a having a group of
2:58:45Roommates is a
2:58:47formative experience it was crazy for me
2:58:49I didn't know because again only child
2:58:51two parents living in a small house I
2:58:55didn't know that he was supposed to
2:58:56knock on someone's bedroom door before
2:58:57you were to go in I'd never done that
2:59:00I'd spent my did 18 years I'd never had
2:59:02to knock on anybody's bedroom door CU
2:59:03like Mom and Dad are down like who else
2:59:05is there I'm going to knock on the dogs
2:59:07like the kitchen door to see if the dogs
2:59:08are mind me going into the kitchen uh
2:59:11and so many of those things looking back
2:59:13on it now are just so ridiculous not
2:59:14knowing that that was something that he
2:59:16was supposed to do yeah well not knowing
2:59:17those Elementary skills though that can
2:59:19be a huge impediment you know I had
2:59:21people in my clinical practice we spent
2:59:24hours practicing how to introduce them
2:59:27and to shake hands because you want to
2:59:29be expert at that because if you're not
2:59:32good at that at all like if you're
2:59:34really bad at it you're
2:59:35screwed you can't even tell someone your
2:59:38name and so how are you going to make a
2:59:39friend then you you you announce
2:59:41yourself as incompetent with your first
2:59:44move and then if you do if that happens
2:59:46to you 10 times you're so terrified dis
2:59:48incentiv oh God terribly terribly and so
2:59:51you should become expert at that that's
2:59:53something you can do with your kids is
2:59:54so they can become expert at introducing
2:59:57themselves you know shake hands do it
3:00:00with a bit of a firm grip look at the
3:00:01other person try smiling you know match
3:00:05your Tempo to the other
3:00:07person another Dynamic that I've been
3:00:09thinking about recently I was at a
3:00:11retreat in La a few months ago and one
3:00:14of the guys that was there had said he'd
3:00:17stopped talking and writing on the
3:00:19internet because he noticed that the
3:00:21story he was telling in public he began
3:00:24feeling the necessity to live up to in
3:00:27private and I think that whether you're
3:00:30a a writer or just someone that's got
3:00:32500 followers on your Instagram and a
3:00:34Facebook from back in the day or
3:00:35whatever there is a there is an online
3:00:38Persona that people put forward that
3:00:41they then almost feel is more real than
3:00:43what they are and then they try and
3:00:44reverse engineer themselves to fit this
3:00:46new is this the problem with writing
3:00:49essays that contain what your professor
3:00:51wants to hear so you can't do that
3:00:53without altering your soul you can't do
3:00:55that you you cannot construct for
3:00:58yourself a false Persona designed to
3:01:02extract resources from the world without
3:01:05that becoming part of you like there's
3:01:08no one is that sophisticated no one can
3:01:11have two selves like that it's part of
3:01:13the reason why you have to be very
3:01:14careful about what you say and do is
3:01:17that you're
3:01:20when you when you practice falsehood you
3:01:22become false it's not like those are
3:01:25beliefs that are just in your head you
3:01:27rewire yourself so you start to
3:01:29literally see the world through the
3:01:30frame of your falsehoods that's a very
3:01:33bad plan I've heard you say if you say
3:01:35things long enough you're going to
3:01:37believe them you become them it's even
3:01:39worse than believing them it's deeper
3:01:41than that they they're built into you as
3:01:44unquestioned implicit axioms and as we
3:01:47said earlier on this can go in either
3:01:48direction right you can fake it until
3:01:50you make it one small step at a time
3:01:52moving toward a vision which you know is
3:01:53positive and you continually reassess to
3:01:55ensure that you're not getting hijacked
3:01:56and going in the wrong direction yes or
3:02:00or you generate a so look in the in the
3:02:02Pinocchio movie which I've analyzed to
3:02:05death in the Disney Pinocchio you're Mr
3:02:07Pinocchio yeah world's leading Pinocchio
3:02:10so Pinocchio exactly exactly part
3:02:13Pinocchio is trying to get rid of the
3:02:15strings that that that pull on him Every
3:02:18Which Way that aren't under his control
3:02:21and to become something genuine okay so
3:02:24he has three basic
3:02:26tempations one
3:02:28is to
3:02:31lie right so that's the
3:02:33nose the another is to be an actor and
3:02:37when I first came across that in the
3:02:38movie I thought what the hell's going on
3:02:40here one of Pinocchio's Temptations is
3:02:42to be an actor now why would the
3:02:44Hollywood people do that why would they
3:02:46denigrate the actor and then I thought
3:02:47oh it's not an actor it's a false
3:02:49Persona to be the actor instead of the
3:02:51real thing to be the appearance instead
3:02:54of the reality to take the credit
3:02:55instead of doing the work right to be
3:02:58false next temptation is to be neurotic
3:03:02it's so interesting especially in in in
3:03:04the world that we have now how
3:03:06perspicacious these animators were
3:03:09Pinocchio is literally enticed onto the
3:03:12island of pleasure by a false Doctor Who
3:03:16diagnoses him with an illness he doesn't
3:03:18have and the the story is look how sick
3:03:22you are you're working too hard you need
3:03:25to go to Pleasure Island well Pleasure
3:03:27Island is run by
3:03:28slavers right so it's
3:03:32perfect
3:03:34well be careful what you practice be
3:03:37careful what you practice right you can
3:03:40be the actor of your own ideal and
3:03:42that's a way of stepping forward but
3:03:44when you make false claims to who you
3:03:47are
3:03:48to gain status in consequence you are
3:03:52you are perverting your soul what's the
3:03:55soul the soul is something like the
3:03:58structure through which the world re
3:04:00reveals itself to you it's something
3:04:03like that so you don't see much of the
3:04:05world right you see it through narrow
3:04:06apertures you see what you allow in
3:04:09that's another way of thinking about it
3:04:11you better make sure it's the bright
3:04:12part of the world re revealing itself to
3:04:15you and that isn't going to be the case
3:04:17if you
3:04:18lie one of the problems I think that a
3:04:21lot of the people listening to this
3:04:22podcast and certainly a lot of my
3:04:24friends who are smart and cerebral
3:04:27encounter they think themselves into
3:04:29problems and they struggle to use their
3:04:31intuition because they are able to come
3:04:34up with a reason about why they should
3:04:36or should not at any moment and you know
3:04:38talking about the soul or the inner
3:04:40voice or the conscience or you know you
3:04:42might refer to it as God that's coming
3:04:44through the best version of
3:04:46yourself people that ruminate and
3:04:49introspect are very capable of talking
3:04:52themselves into or out of something that
3:04:54feels like they worship the
3:04:56intellect how would you advise somebody
3:05:00who enjoys thinking about things deeply
3:05:03to cast that off and be able to hear
3:05:04themselves a little bit more clearly
3:05:07there's a difference between attention
3:05:09and
3:05:12intellect there there's something to be
3:05:14said for paying attention it's not the
3:05:17same thing like the intellect let's say
3:05:20the intellect produces thoughts the
3:05:22attention gathers
3:05:25information right so if
3:05:29I'm well if I'm conducting a podcast
3:05:32let's say I'm paying attention to what I
3:05:35don't understand I'm not thinking it's
3:05:39not the same thing I mean sometimes I
3:05:41think because the person will say
3:05:43something and it'll set off a train of
3:05:44thoughts but often what I'm just doing
3:05:47is like well do I understand what you
3:05:48just said that's a matter of attention I
3:05:51have to note my ignorance I'm attending
3:05:53to my ignorance well this is what
3:05:55Rogan's great at this you're great at
3:05:57this as well if you attend to your
3:05:59ignorance then you know what to do you
3:06:01just ask the question it's like well I
3:06:03don't understand this that's a form of
3:06:05humility to attend to your ignorance
3:06:07that's a good thing for those who
3:06:09worship the luciferian intellect to do
3:06:12is to attend to their own ignorance it's
3:06:14not about what you know it's about what
3:06:16you don't know you already know what you
3:06:19know so why not investigate what you
3:06:21don't know well how do you do that you
3:06:23attend to your
3:06:25ignorance what's the definition of
3:06:27humility humility is attending to your
3:06:30ignorance and you can do that wherever
3:06:32you are is that not still uh an
3:06:34intellectual exercise here are the holes
3:06:37in what I know therefore I'm just going
3:06:39to continue ask to ask the questions
3:06:40until I fill
3:06:42them well it's not something completely
3:06:45divorced from
3:06:52it's the difference between questioning
3:06:53and
3:06:55answering like I would say this is let's
3:06:59say definitional the luciferian
3:07:01intellect has an answer what's when you
3:07:03say luciferian intellect what's that the
3:07:06luciferian intellect is the intellect
3:07:08that wants to place itself in the
3:07:09highest position and there's lots of
3:07:12people smart people tend to be
3:07:13luciferian because they think that their
3:07:15fundamental value is their intelligence
3:07:18and they think that intelligence is the
3:07:19fundamental value and then they're often
3:07:21very annoyed if they're very bright and
3:07:24the world doesn't lay itself out at
3:07:25their feet because they think well I'm
3:07:27so smart everything should just be
3:07:28coming my way because they've prided
3:07:31themsel on that it's like and
3:07:33intellectual Pride well that might be
3:07:35the cardinal sin the luciferian
3:07:38intellect is the intellect that wants to
3:07:39put itself in the highest position it's
3:07:41challenges God that's what Satan is
3:07:43that's what Lucifer is literally in the
3:07:45miltonian story is Lucifer is the spirit
3:07:48who attempts to usurp God that's what
3:07:51the Communists did that's what the
3:07:53fascists did that's what we do when we
3:07:55build towers of Babel and we can easily
3:07:58Elevate the intellect to the highest
3:07:59possible place especially smart people
3:08:01they do that all the time it's better to
3:08:03attend to what you don't know this is
3:08:06why Rogan's a very good example of this
3:08:08because Rogan is not an
3:08:11intellectual he's a Seeker those aren't
3:08:14the same thing Rogan is always
3:08:18like a blood hound he's on the path of
3:08:19what he doesn't know and the consequence
3:08:22of that is he knows a lot you know 2,000
3:08:25podcast 2500 podcasts he's done like
3:08:282500 highlevel graduate seminars
3:08:31something like that it's crazy and so
3:08:33his questions get better and better as
3:08:35he fills in the gaps is it
3:08:40intellectual no no it's not it's it's
3:08:44it's
3:08:48there's a difference between an
3:08:49intellectual Pursuit and a spiritual
3:08:51Pursuit and the remediation of your own
3:08:54ignorance is a spiritual Pursuit it's
3:08:56predicated on humility how am I stupid
3:09:00how can I fix that you know one of the
3:09:02things I really taught my kids tried to
3:09:04teach them was ask stupid
3:09:07questions right and that means you have
3:09:09to admit to your own insufficiency
3:09:11that's what humility is and then you
3:09:13have to publicly announce it here's how
3:09:15I'm stupid can you fix me and you know
3:09:17sometimes that is embarrassing although
3:09:19much less frequently than people think
3:09:21usually if you're in a crowd and you
3:09:23have a stupid question and you've been
3:09:24paying
3:09:25attention 80% of the crowd has the same
3:09:28question and they're relieved that you
3:09:30know you an you asked it in fact they'll
3:09:32think you're brave it's so interesting e
3:09:35because you're afraid when you ask a
3:09:37question if you're in a university
3:09:38seminar you're afraid that what you're
3:09:40going to do is expose your stupidity and
3:09:43be what would you say shamed and what
3:09:46happens is exactly the opposite is
3:09:47everybody who's too cowardly to ask that
3:09:49question now thinks that you're
3:09:50courageous it's exactly the opposite of
3:09:52what you think yeah that happens all the
3:09:55time always in my graduate Seminars the
3:09:59kids that
3:10:00asked the most ignorant questions
3:10:03assuming they were paying attention
3:10:04because you can ask a stupid question
3:10:06you know stupid question is you're I
3:10:09don't know you're fiddling with your
3:10:10phone and you and the class has just
3:10:13covered something and you didn't notice
3:10:14and you ask well you know clue in that
3:10:17that's not a real question that's just
3:10:19you're just wasting people's time but if
3:10:21you're genuinely
3:10:23ignorant I never had a student who asked
3:10:26a genuine question that I thought was a
3:10:29stupid question never and I'd never
3:10:31treat a student that way it's like no no
3:10:33if
3:10:34you're if you it's so cool too because
3:10:37sometimes the stupidest
3:10:39questions cut to the heart of the chase
3:10:42you know it's the kids who would ask a
3:10:44really basic question
3:10:48that also forced me to really understand
3:10:51what I was
3:10:54teaching and that's a reflection of
3:10:56their humility it's that humility in the
3:10:58pursuit
3:10:59of humility in the pursuit of the ideal
3:11:02that's not an intellectual exercise not
3:11:05not not in the strict sense it's
3:11:08definitely what generates knowledge
3:11:09though that seems to be a good stepping
3:11:11block toward earned wisdom as well
3:11:13that's earned wisdom y y earned wisdom
3:11:16through humility
3:11:18right what have you got coming up next
3:11:20what can people expect from you over the
3:11:21next few months well what I'm working on
3:11:24right now is I'm going to finish this
3:11:25book hopefully by the end of December
3:11:28it'll be published in November but I'm
3:11:29going to go on tour weirdly enough about
3:11:32the book probably starting in January
3:11:34I'm going to do an American tour and
3:11:35then I think I'm going to go to Africa
3:11:37and to South America and to Southeast
3:11:40Asia that's the plan and um I'm very
3:11:44excited about this new book um I'm
3:11:46hoping oping it'll be the best book that
3:11:48I've ever
3:11:49written it's it's going to be more
3:11:52difficult book than the last two were
3:11:54but not as difficult as maps of meaning
3:11:56which my first book yeah it's it's it's
3:12:00more it's heavy it's it's deeper have
3:12:04you been fighting with trying to make it
3:12:06accessible no not really right i' I've
3:12:08been I've been I've been just trying to
3:12:11lay the argument out as clearly as I can
3:12:13like and I think that'll do the trick
3:12:15and I I I have to go over it again and
3:12:18edit it and make sure that
3:12:20it's no more obscure than is absolutely
3:12:24necessary no I want to lay it out so
3:12:26that it's comprehensible and I've had a
3:12:29lot of success with the biblical
3:12:31Ventures that I've already embarked on I
3:12:34did a series on Genesis in 2017 which
3:12:37turned out to be quite influential and
3:12:39then I just did a seminar on Exodus with
3:12:42a group of thinkers and I know there's a
3:12:45hunger for
3:12:49analysis of deep stories
3:12:52and I also have good people around me
3:12:54that can help me grind my way through
3:12:57the stories and understand them and so
3:12:59I'm very much looking I've been having
3:13:01quite a good time writing this book
3:13:02actually it's very difficult to write
3:13:04but it's been extremely exciting and
3:13:06interesting
3:13:08and I'm hoping you asked me earlier what
3:13:11would I consider success with this
3:13:14book I don't think that you'll be able
3:13:17to read this book and understand it and
3:13:19be
3:13:20atheistic I think I can demolish the
3:13:23atheistic argument
3:13:25permanently and it's partly it's a weird
3:13:28thing because it's not like all of a
3:13:29sudden people are going to throw
3:13:30themselves at the feet of God In Worship
3:13:32it's like it requires a reconsideration
3:13:34of what we mean by belief and I walk
3:13:37through some of it it's like do you
3:13:39believe in the good well there the
3:13:43difference between believing in good and
3:13:47beleving in God is it's it's a very
3:13:49narrow
3:13:51difference now there are important
3:13:53differences but it's still a narrow
3:13:56difference and the thing is if you don't
3:13:58believe in the in good you're aimless
3:14:01and if you're aimless you're hopeless
3:14:02and if you're aimless and hopeless
3:14:04you're anxious and fractionated and
3:14:07people can't unite in their beliefs like
3:14:08the the alternative is not good
3:14:11reversing the enlightenment is no small
3:14:14task well hopefully we can save the best
3:14:16of the Enlightenment as well it's like
3:14:19uh the uh cheston's fence of cheston's
3:14:23fence like how many how many different
3:14:25fences are in the field so to speak and
3:14:27if we thrown this one out and we're
3:14:28trying to plug it back in but which bit
3:14:29of going back one of the things that's
3:14:31very interesting and I think I think
3:14:33people like Dawkins have started to
3:14:34realize this and I know that people like
3:14:36Douglas Murray and Ian hery Ali and Neil
3:14:39Ferguson have recognize this is
3:14:42that with the death of God many other
3:14:45things die things you don't expect and
3:14:48one of the things that dies when God
3:14:50dies is science and no one expected that
3:14:53how
3:14:55so because science as a practice is a
3:14:57religious practice it it's predicated on
3:15:00religious axioms is it well you have to
3:15:03believe that there's such a thing as
3:15:05truth you have to believe that the truth
3:15:07is understandable you have to believe
3:15:10that understanding the truth is good you
3:15:13have to believe that there is such a
3:15:15thing as good right so imagine to be a
3:15:18scientist you have to imagine that first
3:15:20of all that the world is comprehensible
3:15:22to the human intellect but more that if
3:15:25you investigate the mysteries of the
3:15:27material world that that will be
3:15:29beneficial right those aren't scientific
3:15:32claims those are metaphysical
3:15:34claims and that metaphysical claim is
3:15:36nested in a
3:15:38story you know and the the enlightenment
3:15:41types they've portrayed the Scientific
3:15:43Revolution as something contrary to the
3:15:45religious substr and that's not accurate
3:15:49that's a French Revolution that's a
3:15:52luciferian intellect history it's not
3:15:54true the universities grew out of the
3:15:57monasteries that's where the
3:15:58universities came from and science as a
3:16:02widespread Enterprise got its start in
3:16:04the universities and they grew out of
3:16:06the monasteries that's not
3:16:08questionable like if you go to Harvard
3:16:10or if you go to Oxford and Cambridge
3:16:13it's just starkly evident the layout of
3:16:16the UN of the college ol is a monastic
3:16:18layout so the idea
3:16:21that there's some fundamental
3:16:24contradiction between religious belief
3:16:25and the scientific
3:16:27Enterprise it's it's there's nothing
3:16:30about that that's true and part of the
3:16:33reason that we're Lo part of the reason
3:16:35that we're losing the scientific
3:16:36Enterprise right now is because we've
3:16:38unmowed it from its metaphysical
3:16:40substrate and it can't survive if you're
3:16:42going to be a scientist you have to put
3:16:43the truth Above All Else scientists are
3:16:46very rare
3:16:47you have to believe in the truth to be a
3:16:48scientist I think Dawkins believes in
3:16:50the truth by the way so he's an atheist
3:16:53but a
3:16:55very he's much less of an atheist than
3:16:58he thinks that's my
3:17:00impression lying scientists are
3:17:03atheistic or just malevolent Dawkins is
3:17:06a truthful scientist and in so far as
3:17:08he's pursuing the truth and in so far as
3:17:09he believes that pursuing the truth will
3:17:12set you free then he's walking down a
3:17:15path that's Christian to its core now I
3:17:18know he doesn't like that idea but he
3:17:20also doesn't like the fact that the
3:17:22scientific Enterprise seems to be
3:17:24collapsing in terms of its what would
3:17:26you call reliability and validity
3:17:28everywhere
3:17:31so I appreciate you mate I appreciate
3:17:33the time that we get to spend it always
3:17:36seems to be a very interesting
3:17:38inflection uh again this yeah the
3:17:40inflection this time is you're out on
3:17:41tour eh I am what's your advice for me
3:17:43how am I going to survive life on the
3:17:45road make sure that when you step on the
3:17:48stage that you understand how unlikely
3:17:50it is that you have the privilege to do
3:17:52this and make sure you remember that all
3:17:55those people who came to see you they're
3:17:56hoping for something from you they put
3:17:59in some time and energy to come and see
3:18:00you it matters what you do you go out on
3:18:04that stage with gratitude right that'll
3:18:07help a lot you got to remember that it
3:18:10keeps you on the ground too you should
3:18:11be grateful that they're not throwing
3:18:13rocks at you right how ridiculous ous is
3:18:17it that you get to do this how unlikely
3:18:19is it right exactly so you keep that
3:18:22first and foremost in your mind you
3:18:24remember that you should be stunningly
3:18:26grateful for the miracle that you have
3:18:28the opportunity to do this because it's
3:18:30ridiculously
3:18:33improbable yeah yeah trying to do that
3:18:36without getting overwhelmed is becoming
3:18:37an increasingly difficult task yeah well
3:18:39part of the way you handle that is that
3:18:41you parse off the jobs that other people
3:18:43can do you know when you're out on tour
3:18:46the social element of that can be
3:18:48overwhelming so you have to protect
3:18:49yourself from that to some degree but
3:18:53the other thing you do is anything
3:18:55anyone else can do get someone to do es
3:18:58and get someone competent and reliable
3:19:01so that all you're focusing on get to
3:19:04the next show on time in the right frame
3:19:07of mind that's your
3:19:09job other people have their jobs make
3:19:11sure you're surrounded by people who do
3:19:13their jobs like our tour so far they
3:19:17become increasingly well-run I don't
3:19:20worry about travel hotels meals
3:19:23Transportation none of that I worry
3:19:25about getting to the venue 1 hour ahead
3:19:28of
3:19:29time getting my head in the right place
3:19:31which has to do with this attitude of
3:19:34gratefulness that I described and then
3:19:36trying to address a serious problem with
3:19:39all the people who are participating in
3:19:41the audience and
3:19:43then if it's too much
3:19:47then distribute the responsibility some
3:19:49more how do you wind down after a show I
3:19:52watched the Trailer Park
3:19:55Boys of course you do yeah yeah well
3:19:58after being that good you have to not be
3:20:00so good for a while and the Trailer Park
3:20:02Boys is a very good way of doing that
3:20:03counteract a little bit Yeah I uh I
3:20:06texted Rogan about this yesterday and I
3:20:09thought that he would have you know God
3:20:10knows how many shows that guy's done I
3:20:11thought he would have some wisdom for me
3:20:13I said every time that I do a show I um
3:20:16I'm so excited after I finished that I
3:20:18find it difficult to kind of wind down
3:20:20and I've got four shows back toback then
3:20:22we fly to Dubai then we've got all these
3:20:23shows around the US and Canada and uh
3:20:26I'm nervous that I'm not going to be
3:20:27able to sleep and then if I don't sleep
3:20:28then I'm not going to be able to perform
3:20:29as well tomorrow and then it'll spiral
3:20:32uh and I thought that he would just have
3:20:33some wisdom and he said that's a tough
3:20:34one man to be honest I've never had any
3:20:36problem sleeping I well [ __ ] that I
3:20:38guess you know uh but no I'm excited I'm
3:20:41excited and I'll check back in with you
3:20:42once uh once everything's done we're
3:20:44going to record one of them properly
3:20:46fully properly record it uh like a
3:20:48special um so that'll be maybe we'll put
3:20:51it up maybe it'll just stay for
3:20:53posterity I don't know but uh we're GNA
3:20:55have it so yeah I'm excited yeah well
3:20:57good luck thank you man good luck should
3:20:59be a blast yeah yeah yeah I'm definitely
3:21:02going to learn a lot and as we've said
3:21:04today pushing through discomfort and
3:21:06doing different things uh and following
3:21:09something close to Instinct a lot of the
3:21:10things that I'm saying are uh like
3:21:13vulnerable in some regards I guess you
3:21:14know they things that are meaningful to
3:21:16me uh and yeah I hope that people take
3:21:18take a lot away from it and I hope they
3:21:20have done from today too so one of the
3:21:21things I do when I go on stage is like I
3:21:24spend the first 10 or 15 seconds looking
3:21:27at the audience like I don't mean I
3:21:30would I've seen you do this a lot I
3:21:31would I would technically refer to it as
3:21:33stalking um but it's not far from a
3:21:36stalk it's it's good I I look everywhere
3:21:40and this is a exposure technique you
3:21:42don't want to be afraid of the audience
3:21:43and so at all and you don't want to be
3:21:45talking to the audience
3:21:47so I look at people and I see you know I
3:21:49I look everywhere and as you know you
3:21:51can't see in the back rows if it's a big
3:21:53place but fundamentally I look
3:21:56everywhere I can and I look at
3:21:57individuals and I'm marking them out as
3:21:59people and then I'm remembering you know
3:22:01I'm talking to all these individual
3:22:03people who've come here and then that's
3:22:04easy because you can talk to individuals
3:22:06and they're your guests say that's
3:22:08another that's another thing for your
3:22:10staff to know too it's like everyone who
3:22:12comes to one of your events has to be
3:22:14treated in the most positive possible
3:22:16way cuz they're looking to you for
3:22:18something you know and it's very hard on
3:22:19them if they're treated inhospitably and
3:22:22so you know one of the things we've
3:22:24tried to do I travel with a fair number
3:22:26of people now but everyone knows that
3:22:29like rule number one is treat the
3:22:31audience members even the ones that are
3:22:34have some trouble and maybe even are
3:22:36Troublesome it's like treat them like
3:22:38their guests because they're guests and
3:22:40you're bloody lucky that they're here so
3:22:42don't get all high and mighty about it
3:22:44CU they put in their time and effort to
3:22:45come here and they're looking for
3:22:46something so that's part of that
3:22:49gratitude that that and then it's fun
3:22:52right that keeps it fun it's like you're
3:22:54so privileged to be there talking to
3:22:57them that's you got to have that in mind
3:22:58what a privilege it is that what is
3:23:01these people they're coming to listen to
3:23:03what you're doing that's a good deal man
3:23:05that's as good as it gets so you want to
3:23:08have that firmly in the back of your
3:23:10mind and the front too yeah I'll try my
3:23:13best Jordan Peterson ladies and
3:23:14gentlemen Jordan thank you so much for
3:23:16today I'm looking forward to the next
3:23:18time we get to catch up good to talk to
3:23:19you Chris thank you very much for tuning
3:23:22in if you enjoyed that episode with
3:23:23Jordan you will love my conversation
3:23:25with Douglas Murray which is available
3:23:27right here go on tap it

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