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How to Expand Local SEO Into New Cities (Without Getting Penalized by Google) — Transcript

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0:00Darren Shaw, you are one of the top
0:02people in local search engine
0:03optimization. This is your second time
0:05on the show. We had a phenomenal first
0:08episode. Um, you are the founder of
0:10White Spark, which is local search
0:12engine optimization tools and an agency.
0:15And again, like you are a local SEO
0:18mastermind. So, what we're talking about
0:21today is is well, thanks for coming on.
0:25um is how to expand local service area
0:29pages and especially if you want to
0:31expand into a location that's really far
0:34away, let's say across the country, what
0:36is the way to do that? Yeah.
0:40>> Which which one you want to hit first?
0:41You want to hit like expand your current
0:43radius across one location? What do you
0:46want to do first?
0:46>> I think let's actually talk about
0:48locations that are really far away.
0:51>> Okay, locations that are really far
0:52away. You absolutely well if you want to
0:55rank in the local pack or maps results
0:59and it's really far away. There's only
1:01one way on earth to do it. You must open
1:05a new location. Like you're too far
1:07away, you can forget it. Your single
1:09location, even if you're like in a in
1:11another city, it's not even that far
1:12away. It's not like on the other side of
1:14the country. It's just like you
1:16currently are a plumber. You work in a
1:20suburb of Denver. So, you work in
1:22Aurora, Colorado. That's that's where
1:24you registered your business. You live
1:25there. You you operate in Aurora,
1:28Colorado. You're like, I really want to
1:29rank in Denver.
1:31Forget it. Just give up. [laughter] It's
1:34not possible, man. You must open a new
1:36location in Denver because of the city
1:39barrier. So, Google will, you know, I'm
1:42looking for plumbers in in Denver. Why
1:44would Google return a guy that's in
1:46Aurora? Well, you would think they would
1:49because you set the service areas, but
1:50that's actually a really great topic.
1:53Service areas in Google do not impact
1:56your rankings.
1:58This is so annoying. They should you
2:00like why did Google give you that field
2:02if it doesn't have any if you're like,
2:04"Hey, yeah, I service this whole area.
2:06So, can you please make my business
2:09profile appear in the results in those
2:10areas?" And Google's like, "No, sorry."
2:13So, like, why do they give you that?
2:15They give you that field because
2:17it uh it draws it just shows customers
2:21where you're willing to travel to, but
2:23it does not factor into the local
2:26algorithm. So, you're you're want to
2:29rank in a far away place, you got to
2:32open a new location. So, if you're
2:34further than like 20 miles, like that's
2:37where you want to be ranking. And
2:38certainly a lot of service area
2:40businesses will happily travel 30 40 up
2:42to up to 60 miles to get a job. Then
2:47it's just almost impossible. You just
2:50got to there is there is a way have be
2:53in some weird industry that has no
2:55competition. Then you can expand your
2:57radius. Then you can actually have a big
2:58radius because there's nobody else. Like
3:01you're just kind of on your own. So
3:03that's that's one way. But that doesn't
3:05really apply to most businesses. How
3:06about um how about if it's actual pages
3:09on your site? So you're not Yeah, that's
3:12that's really I think there's a lot of
3:14people who are confused about this
3:16specifically.
3:17>> There are and so that is something. Yes,
3:20you let's say you are a I like this
3:23Aurora Denver example. So you are a
3:25plumber in Aurora, Colorado. You want to
3:28rank in Denver. So you make a page on
3:30your site called Denver plumbers, Denver
3:32drain cleaning. You make a whole like
3:34areas we serve. you make like a like a
3:36whole subsection of your website about
3:38Denver. Yes, sure. It helps you rank in
3:42your organic results.
3:44>> You will you will rank in the organic
3:46results like that.
3:46>> Sure, why not? Yeah, there's just a page
3:48on the internet, right? So you have the
3:49ability for those pages to rank, but
3:53they're buried under the ads and then
3:56the more ads and then there's another
3:57set of ads and then there's the local
3:59pack. And then if someone's
4:03finger is strong enough to scroll all
4:05the way to the bottom of the page, they
4:07might see what are called the localized
4:09organic results. And these are the blue
4:11links that live underneath the pack. And
4:14yes, you could have your page ranking
4:17there. Now, what about large language
4:21models? Chpt, Gemini. Those pages are
4:24great. So, you could actually start
4:25getting references and and leads from
4:28those pages. So, yes, yes, yes, yes. But
4:30we're talking about local search. And
4:31so, when we talk about local search,
4:33we're talking about the local packet
4:35maps. But yes, 100% you can make those
4:38pages on your site. And uh yeah, why
4:42don't we talk about how to make those
4:43pages?
4:43>> Talk about how to make those pages.
4:45>> Yeah. What What makes a good page? Yeah.
4:48So, this method of marketing is so
4:50effective, I had to make sure it wasn't
4:52against Google's rules before I kept
4:54doing it. It's a form of SEO I call
4:56compact keywords. Whereas most SEO
4:59focuses on putting up articles to answer
5:01questions, how, what, when, compact
5:03keywords focuses on putting up dozens of
5:05pages that sell to searchers who are
5:07actually looking to buy. These pages
5:10rank on Google and convert so much
5:12better than normal that when I
5:14discovered this years ago, I couldn't
5:16believe this was allowed. It's less
5:18work, too. The average compact keywords
5:20page is only 415 words. Compact Keywords
5:24is a 13-hour deep course on getting
5:27sales with SEO. A customer recently
5:29said, "Each lesson is dense with
5:32information. You're giving years worth
5:34of experience boiled down into 15 to 30
5:36minute lessons with no filler or fluff.
5:39I feel like I'm gaining a new
5:41superpower. Compact Keywords is about
5:43setting up an SEO funnel that brings you
5:45sales for years and years and years. It
5:48works with AI. It's less work than
5:50traditional SEO and it makes way more
5:53money. You can get it now at
5:55compactkeywords.com.
5:57Back to the podcast. You are a plumber
5:59in Aurora. You want to rank in Denver.
6:02You don't want to go to the trouble of
6:03going and creating a new location in
6:05Denver and and verifying it on Google
6:07and building out citations. That is the
6:10best move. Hands down, if you can afford
6:13the new office location,
6:16you can do it. And let let's sidebar,
6:19how do you get a cheap office location?
6:21So, the way you get a cheap office
6:23location is not a PO box. That's against
6:25Google's guidelines. You'll you'll have
6:27a major target on your back. Uh not a
6:30virtual office. Again, problematic
6:32against Google's guidelines. Uh
6:34co-working space is this gray area. It's
6:37like, oh, well, I'll just use a
6:38co-working like a wei work, right?
6:40That's also a little dangerous. You
6:42could get away with a a co-working if
6:44you have a dedicated lease and a and a
6:46signage within there. It's like I am
6:48renting this office. It's mine in this
6:51co-working space. That's fineish, but
6:55again, because it's in the co-working
6:56area, it's it's looked at very
6:58suspiciously by Google. So, your very
7:01best move is to get what I call a sub
7:04lease. I guess what the the world calls
7:06a sub lease. It's not me. I didn't coin
7:08this. So, a sub lease is someone's
7:10already got office space. They have a
7:13very expensive rent. And they are like,
7:15"We want to offset some of these costs.
7:17We're going to rent you a room in our
7:18office that we are leasing." So, rather
7:21than $5,000 a month, your office then
7:23now becomes $400 a month because you're
7:26getting a small little room in there. If
7:28you go on the internet and you look up
7:30office space, you're going to get all
7:32these office uh websites
7:35and you will not find these there. You
7:38find them on Craigslist and Facebook
7:42Marketplace. So, that's where you go to
7:45find the subleasases. It' be like office
7:47subleas. It's another word for it. just
7:50I don't know, ask your your favorite uh
7:53chat what to call this thing and it'll
7:56give you advice on how to find these sub
7:58leases. And so that's what you would do
8:01if you were going to open a location in
8:03Denver proper. You would get a sub
8:05lease, you would get signage. So signage
8:07for a sub lease is
8:10your name should be ideally on the
8:12outside of the building and on so then
8:16when you go to the office, your name
8:18should be on a slap up a piece of paper
8:21just like Bob's plumbing on the side of
8:23the main office door and then when you
8:25go inside you have your own door in the
8:28office again. Bob's plumbing on the
8:29door. So some kind of signage and there
8:32you go. That will help you get an actual
8:35real physical location which is another
8:37topic. You should ask me the question
8:39hiding your address versus not hiding
8:41your address. But
8:43>> yeah, is that
8:44>> Now I got to ask you now I got to ask
8:45you that. I feel like I'm going all over
8:48the place here though because we didn't
8:49get we didn't really finish the pages.
8:51>> No. And actually, I had a Okay, so I I I
8:53have another question. By the way, I
8:55want to say like when you when you're
8:56when you speak, I remember why I loved
8:59our first episode so much because every
9:02sentence that you give is a specific
9:06piece of easily understood, tangible
9:08advice. And I I love it. It's so clear.
9:11Darren, I I I really appreciate you have
9:14I really appreciate having you on the
9:15show. Um, have you encountered issues of
9:19people trying to rank service area pages
9:22very far away, but they don't have the
9:24topical authority for that location.
9:26Maybe Google just sees them as this one
9:29location because they've done marketing
9:30around this one location and now they're
9:32trying to expand into they're trying to
9:34do pages in normal pages in other
9:38locations, but Google's like we don't
9:39really see you as having like topical
9:41authority in that location.
9:43>> Yeah, 100%. Actually, you see this all
9:44the time with even like with you, you've
9:46done the work. You've created a whole
9:48new office. You have a you have a
9:50verified Google business profile in
9:52Denver with your uh with your address
9:57showing like dream scenario, right? You
9:59did it. Yes. Great. Now I'm going to
10:01rank number one. So you can you see this
10:03happen all the time with like law firms
10:04when they open up locations around the
10:06whole state. Um and they really do
10:09service those locations. They have
10:10people staffed in those offices. But the
10:13main location that they started 20 years
10:15ago in their main area that's where you
10:18know speaking of your topical authority
10:20and so they they just dominate in that
10:22area and they can't break into the other
10:25area and that is a very true thing that
10:27is very challenging and it's because
10:30Google's Google Google's knowledge graph
10:32everything Google knows about you is
10:34anchored to Aurora Colorado and so now
10:38it's like oh yeah also yeah we opened a
10:40new location in Colorado Springs it's a
10:42slot Oh, it's going to take a long time
10:43for you to build up Colorado Springs.
10:46And so, that's a real challenge for uh
10:48businesses. And to your question, it is
10:51true. It is. It is hard. And so, how do
10:54you do it? Well, these pages are great.
10:56You're going to build these very
11:00detailed. You're going to build them out
11:02very nicely. Uh these service area
11:06pages. We have a article on the
11:08Whitespark blog. We have I think a
11:10ultimate guide to building these service
11:12area pages. So you can look that up. You
11:14can go to whitespark.ca
11:15and click the guide section in our
11:18resources. And in there there's a guide
11:20to how to like make the ultimate service
11:22area pages, right? Um so those are you
11:28know foundational required you must do
11:31it. There are other things though that
11:33we could talk about which are offsite
11:36right. So,
11:39citations
11:41uh so mentions and links absolutely
11:43that's how Google works. That's also how
11:46LLMs work. They look for references for
11:48you. So, basically
11:51in those areas,
11:53we'll go back to the Aurora Denver
11:55example. You need references within that
11:58city. So, you need links. You need like
12:01So, sponsorship links are great. I'll
12:03give you a tip. I got all the tips. I'll
12:05give you a tip for how to find
12:06sponsorship links. So, uh, you do a
12:09search on Google for your city name. So,
12:12Denver space in title or you could use
12:16in URL. I actually kind of like in URL
12:18better. You go in URL colon sponsors.
12:21So, what that's going to surface in the
12:23organic results and actually then when
12:24you run that, hit the link at the top
12:26that says web. And then you just get a
12:28nice page. And then you can even go and
12:30edit your URL and go like numbum equals
12:31100. uh put a parameter num and say you
12:34got a 100 pages in Denver that have
12:38sponsors in the URL. So these are all
12:41pages
12:41>> Google deprecated num num equals 100.
12:45>> Okay, do it on Yahoo then which is true.
12:48Yahoo [laughter] is actually kind of
12:50amazing. Yahoo's index is like they
12:54never remove from the index as
12:56opposed to Google. And so Yahoo's index
12:59is a great place to go to search for
13:03this kind of thing. So anyways, in in
13:05URL sponsors and you will find all of
13:09these pages. You don't have to put the
13:10number equals on. You just click next
13:11next. And these are all organizations
13:14that will happily take your money. We'd
13:16be like, "Yes, give us give us 500
13:18bucks. We'll give you a link on our
13:20website."
13:20>> And then so in the language you're
13:22talking about this new location.
13:24>> Yes. So, you want it to be like if you
13:28can when you're getting these links like
13:30Denver plumbers as the anchor text and
13:33it goes to your website and it's from a
13:34Denver organization. It's really more
13:36about the you usually can't manipulate
13:38the anchor text. If you could get a
13:40blurb that goes with it, then that's
13:42helpful. So, like a nice little chunk of
13:44text about your business. It' be like
13:46Bob's Plumbing is a Denver plumbing
13:49company servicing the whole region,
13:51right? So, those are the kinds of things
13:53that you could do. So you want to use
13:54that. That's actually called a semantic
13:56triple
13:58subject predicate object. Bob's plumbing
14:02is a Denver plumbing company. Say that
14:05on the internet all over the place if
14:08you want to rank in Denver. So that
14:11helps peel helps the engines understand
14:15what your business is, who you are, what
14:17you do, what services. Den Bob's
14:20Plumbing provides drain cleaning
14:22services in Denver.
14:24>> Have you um have you seen people making
14:26pillar pages for different locations so
14:28they can have individual services for
14:31each uh location? Like
14:33>> Yeah.
14:34>> Yeah. Yeah.
14:35>> I have. And so yeah, there's it's like
14:37silos, right? Content silos. So
14:39>> let's say I'm in Aurora. My website's
14:41got a services section and every one of
14:43those pages, drain cleaning, hot water
14:45tank installation, hot water tank
14:47repair, you know, u pipe replacement,
14:50all of these services, they're currently
14:53focused on Aurora because I built my
14:56website 10 years ago, right now I'm
14:59like, I got to break into Denver. So I
15:01start making these pillar. So I'll be
15:03like locations and then you know or you
15:06what you do is you have this you have
15:07services and it's a drop down that has
15:10Aurora and Denver and then when I click
15:13Denver submen of all the drain cleaning
15:16pages but each one of those pages is
15:18hyperfocused on Denver not Aurora. So it
15:22is valuable to do those pages. Uh in the
15:25world of AI it's not hard to rework
15:28those pages. So like you take your
15:30content from your Aurora page, rework
15:33it. So it's not it's not a copy paste
15:35whether you just change the the name,
15:36you just kind of rework each paragraph,
15:39uh rebuild it. Ideally, you will do that
15:41in the business owner's voice and you
15:44can get that through transcript. So you
15:47just ask the business owner questions
15:48about each section and they will answer
15:51it because business owners love to talk
15:52about their business. And then they will
15:55then you transcribe that. That's the
15:57very best way to get real authentic
15:59content that doesn't come across as AI
16:03generated.
16:03>> Yeah. And and you don't want it to be
16:05like doorway pages where everything is
16:07just Yeah. And actually the cool thing
16:09about pillar pages with different
16:11locations is it makes it a lot easier to
16:13build topical authority for that
16:14location. Because now when you're doing
16:16link building and you're saying, you
16:18know, we exist in this new city, you
16:20send it to the pillar page and then that
16:22spreads the link equity across all the
16:24uh all the Yeah. all the service area
16:27pages within that that location.
16:29>> Yeah, it's just like it's if you think
16:31about it, it's pretty it all makes
16:32sense. I want to establish my presence
16:36in Denver. Ideally, I will open a new
16:38location. If I don't, at least I've got
16:40these pages. So, you're going to build
16:41out a whole page structure on your
16:43website. Then you're going to try and
16:45get links from Denver related websites
16:48to those pages and that will you know
16:51with internal linking uh trickle down to
16:54all the other service pages that are in
16:56Denver. Um and then there's another big
16:58one which is reviews. So if you can get
17:01reviews from people located in those
17:04areas, you service those areas. I mean,
17:06like, okay, you're in Aurora and you hit
17:09the jackpot. You got a job in Denver.
17:11That is a review. You must hound. You
17:14must hound that person to leave you a
17:16review. And ideally, they will say words
17:19like, you know, Denver or I had them
17:22come out to my home in Denver to leave a
17:24review uh to to get my drains cleaned,
17:27right? That kind of thing is really
17:29really valuable. So if you can get
17:31reviews from people located in those
17:32areas, Google tracks every movement that
17:36we ever make, all of us. And so Google
17:38knows that you're located in that area
17:40and that review coming from that person
17:42is helpful. Uh speculatively, no one's
17:45ever proved that, but we believe that
17:47Google does look at those signals. Um so
17:50getting reviews from those areas is
17:53another thing that becomes really
17:55valuable and especially getting keywords
17:57in reviews. I just want to quickly
17:59mention another local search myth. The
18:01first myth I mentioned earlier was that
18:03the service areas impact ranking. They
18:05don't. And then the second myth is that
18:09people think that if you leave a review
18:12someone you get a review from someone
18:14and they oh dang they didn't say my
18:16favorite keywords. So then when you
18:17reply to the review you say hey yeah
18:20thanks for using our drain cleaning
18:22services in Denver. So, Google doesn't
18:26use the owner response in the local
18:29search algorithm at all. So, putting
18:31keywords in your owner responses has no
18:34impact on ranking. So, don't bother.
18:36Just just respond to that person like
18:38you're a human, not an SEO. And so, that
18:41would that's just one thing worth
18:43mentioning. But getting reviews from out
18:45from the area. So, you get so you got
18:47the nice pages. Ideally, you have an
18:49office and an actual Google business
18:51profile. That's the dream. But if you
18:52don't have that, then you got the pages,
18:54you got links and mentions. So, you're
18:56looking for localized citations like
18:58chambers of commerce, uh, business
19:00organization, meetup groups. If you're
19:02just trying to find localized links in
19:04those areas, getting those to your hub
19:07pages, your Denver hub pages, and then
19:09getting reviews from those areas, those
19:11are the key things that you can do.
19:13Yeah. Yeah. And you said something
19:14actually, this is I don't know if you've
19:16seen me talking about this like
19:17non-stop, but I basically I bring it up
19:19on on so many episodes and it it was
19:22something it stuck with me the most out
19:25of everything that you said in our first
19:27episode, which was I don't know, I think
19:28it was like an hour and a half or two
19:30hours, our first episode, but this was
19:31the thing that really stuck with me the
19:33most, which was whenever you update your
19:35Google business profile,
19:37>> it goes and crawls your entire site and
19:40you see it in the log files. Yeah,
19:43>> crawls the whole damn thing. That That's
19:45That was your language verbatim. And I
19:47Yeah, I don't know if it's true anymore.
19:49That was likeing eight years ago when I
19:52tested that. But it is so cool to see
19:54it.
19:54>> Yeah. So, that's a great point. Okay,
19:57you just made all these new pages on
19:58your website. You want to connect those
20:01pages to your existing Google business
20:03profile. How do you do it? Just go and
20:05make an edit to your Google business
20:06profile. Now, be careful. There are what
20:09we call the sensitive fields on your
20:10Google business profile. If you edit the
20:13address or phone number, those are like
20:16major reverification fields. Don't touch
20:19those.
20:21Categories can be a little sensitive.
20:23So, if you change your primary category,
20:25that can sometimes trigger like, hey,
20:27are you actually a towing company
20:29because you were a plumber before? Can
20:31you reverify? So, primary category is a
20:34little sensitive. Additionals are
20:36usually fine. Uh name is usually fine.
20:38Actually, Google doesn't seem to give
20:40two craps about the the name. Even
20:43keyword stuffing. It is hard to report
20:46someone for keyword stuffing in the
20:47business name. There were egregious
20:49cases where the name was just like
20:52absolutely stuffed with keywords, like
20:55one of those like ones that you would
20:56laugh at cuz it's so bad. Multiple
20:59people reporting that to Google and
21:00Google saying, "We don't see a problem."
21:03Like, no joke. Keywords in the business
21:05name Google doesn't seem to care too
21:07much about. So anyways,
21:08>> I have a question. Do you do you find
21:10that keywords in the business name make
21:12a difference though in terms of
21:14conversions with people? Like, oh, this
21:16sounds like a scammy company cuz like
21:19Yeah.
21:19>> Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Like
21:21it's it's not it's not like a real
21:23>> and now I'm not saying, you know, if
21:25you're like a bicycle repair shop, you
21:27call it Joe's Bicycle Repair. That's
21:28fine. That's But but if you call it just
21:31like Bicycle Repair Shop Brooklyn, New
21:33York, you know,
21:35>> near me.
21:35>> Yeah. Yeah. You call it you call it
21:37that. Is that going to is actually going
21:39to hurt conversions?
21:42>> I don't know if there's any studies on
21:43that.
21:44>> I would say
21:46>> no.
21:46>> Branding is important. I think branding
21:48is I personally I think branding is
21:49important.
21:50>> I would say that you got the brand with
21:54Joe's bike repair shop.
21:56>> So it's there. Now you want to get the
22:00SEO benefits of the other stuff. And you
22:03I feel like you don't really hurt
22:04yourself too much. So, if you're Joe's
22:06Bike Repair Shop
22:08near me in Brooklyn
22:11offering tuneups, like [laughter] I
22:13don't know, like you're really you're
22:14really going with it with the keywords
22:16there. I don't actually think it hurts
22:18you. I think
22:18>> you might be right cuz you're going to
22:20be like, "Well, I need a tuneup." I
22:21mean, obviously I'm going to go here.
22:23>> It's kind of it's kind of like when
22:24people talk about optimizing title tags
22:26and metad descriptions, it's like you
22:27want those keywords in there because
22:29when people see it, they're like, "Oh,
22:30>> it's for me.
22:31>> Tuneups. Perfect. That's what I'm
22:33looking for." Yeah.
22:34>> So, I actually I would say I think it's
22:36it benefits you from both a ranking and
22:39a conversion perspective.
22:41>> And as I said earlier, Google doesn't
22:42give two crap. So, here I am telling you
22:45to spam your your business name.
22:47>> I'm going to tell you something nuts
22:49right now.
22:49>> Oh my gosh.
22:50>> You ready to hear?
22:51>> I don't know if I am, but I'm I'm I'm
22:52like uh holding on my desk. Here we go.
22:55>> This is something I just recently
22:57learned about and I was like, "Oh my
22:59god, this is insane." So basically,
23:04you can sue Google. So let me let me
23:08take a step [laughter] back. So
23:10>> are you trying to give me deplatform?
23:12Darren, what are you doing?
23:13>> Let me take a step back. So we're
23:15talking about stuffing keywords in the
23:17business name, right? So one of the
23:19tactics that SEO agencies do is they
23:23report other businesses that are
23:25stuffing keywords in the business name.
23:27So it's like, you cheaters, I'm going to
23:29report you. So, I go to Google and I
23:31suggest an edit and I say that's not
23:33their real business name. Their real
23:34business name is Joe's Bike Repair and
23:38all that other stuff they put in their
23:41business name, that's not in there. So,
23:42what I do is I suggest an edit. I take
23:44all that out. I hit save. Google usually
23:46accepts that save. And so, now they no
23:49longer rank for tuneups and they're
23:50like, "Curses you. Someone on the
23:53internet ruined my business name and now
23:56I'm losing business.
24:00You can find out who was messing with
24:02your profile.
24:04This is the I'm like I had what? You can
24:07sue Google. There's there are people out
24:10there that specialize in this kind of a
24:11lawsuit. You file a subpoena like a
24:14lawsuit a subpoena to Google a request
24:17for information. Tell me, give me a list
24:20of all the people that were editing my
24:22Google business profile. And you're
24:24like, and Google through the laws of the
24:28United States is required to give you
24:29this. So, it's insane that you can now
24:33get a list of all the emails and their
24:34IPs of who has been messing with your
24:37profile. And then, I don't know what do
24:39you do with that data if you have it.
24:40You could potentially sue the people
24:41that were editing your business name.
24:44This flips the concept of spam fighting
24:47on its head. It becomes
24:50dangerous. like you want to put yourself
24:52liable because you are hurting someone's
24:55business by taking keywords out of their
24:56business name even when Google doesn't
24:58really seem to care too much about it.
25:00That's this is a new revelation for me
25:02that I'm like holy crap. Well, honestly,
25:05at my agency, we have stopped spam
25:06fighting because of this. There is a way
25:09if you want to keep trying to report
25:11these cheaters that are stuff in their
25:13business name, there is a way. You have
25:15to use what's called the redressle form.
25:19So just look it up like Google business
25:20profiles redressal form you can submit
25:23them through there and then I think you
25:25are safer but it's suggest and edit
25:27which is a it's a dangerous one for
25:29changing business name so sidebar but
25:31this is new information that I'm like
25:34wow I didn't know that was a thing and
25:35so now I know
25:37>> I didn't know that was a thing either
25:39>> yeah it's new
25:40>> that's that's crazy that's that's good
25:42though
25:43>> it's good to know it's good to know and
25:44actually it does make you it should make
25:46you hesitate if you're going to suggest
25:48an edit on someone else's profile,
25:50particularly the law firms. Be careful
25:52about those law firms.
25:54>> Oh my gosh.
25:56>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You So, you said there
25:58was something that I that I should ask
26:00you about. Was it changing your address?
26:02Was that or changing your name,
26:04>> changing your signature?
26:05>> I'm trying to remember.
26:07>> You don't remember? It was It was
26:09changing something. You're like, "Oh,
26:10you should ask me about this." And then
26:12and then I'm like And then then you're
26:14like, "Oh, but we're going too far off
26:16topic."
26:17Dang it. I wish I could remember.
26:19>> I can't remember. [laughter]
26:20>> Somebody in the comments, leave a
26:22comment, remind us what it was, and I
26:24will answer it on in the comments.
26:27>> Anyway, this was this was great though.
26:28Um, this was a very good discussion of
26:31uh expanding local service area pages
26:33and uh
26:34>> I think so too. Yeah, I think we covered
26:36everything really. It's like that's what
26:37it comes down to. Get the sub lease if
26:39you can, get a new actual location, your
26:41topical authorities is a challenge. I
26:44think we talked about how to expand that
26:45and and do all the things. I probably
26:48missed a couple things that you could do
26:49that might help. You know, we didn't
26:50talk about things like schema, but
26:52that's I'm a little on the fence about
26:54that.
26:54>> Well, actually, oh my. So, so, um, Jay
26:57Hundley, you spoke to him. I don't know
26:58if you saw the episode, uh, that Jay
27:01Hundley and David Quaid and I did called
27:04Schema is worthless. Like, or useless.
27:06It's crazy.
27:06>> Oh, I didn't. I now I want to watch it.
27:08>> And and so, very interestingly, um, Jay
27:11Conundley is doing a study on this and
27:13he
27:14>> he told me. Yeah.
27:14>> So, he tagged he probably tagged you,
27:16too. He tagged all these people, but
27:18Joy, he tagged Joy Hawkins and Joy
27:20Hawkins was like, "Yeah," she even left
27:23in a comment. She said, "We haven't seen
27:25much of a difference."
27:26>> And but she's talking about So Joy lives
27:31in a very local search world. We're
27:33talking about ranking in local packs and
27:34ranking in uh maps. So very like focused
27:38on local results. And oh, we added
27:40schema. It did not impact that. Cool. I
27:43I would agree with her. In a world of
27:46large language models though, that's the
27:48question and organic results, LLM based
27:51results. I think that there's some
27:53schema benefits in that, but it's so
27:56it's pure speculation. No one's really
27:58I've never seen like anyone prove it
28:00prove some benefit of schema. So that's
28:02why I'm I'm on the fence about it. And
28:04I'm very interested in uh Jake's study
28:06and uh he sent me the documents. I'll
28:08give it a review and see if I have any
28:09suggestions. But yeah, I think it's
28:11great. Jake did such a good job on the
28:13geotagging study
28:15>> that I just have real confidence in him
28:18to to do a great job on this schema
28:20study. So excited to see what he comes
28:22up with.
28:23>> Yeah, he's very thorough.
28:24>> Yeah.
28:25>> Yeah. He's very thorough. And it's just
28:28um I don't know personally like I don't
28:31like that it's the type of thing where
28:34it to me it seems like the benefits are
28:36are very negligible and it's it's
28:41agencies charge a lot and use it to
28:43confuse clients
28:45>> in into like whereas like people like us
28:48people like you we we try to make search
28:51engine optimization easily understood so
28:54it feels like you can do it too, Right.
28:58But 100% agencies will use this and
29:01that's what they also use things like
29:02geotagging photos which is just it
29:04sounds amazing. It's like you are what
29:06kind of genius are you? You put the you
29:08put the location in the photos. Wow,
29:11you're a genius, right? [laughter]
29:13That's actually a myth. It doesn't
29:14impact rankings. But same thing with
29:16schema. It sounds all technical. Ah, we
29:18got some hidden code on the page. We are
29:20masters of the hidden code on the page.
29:22And so it sounds like a big deal. But I
29:24do think I actually saw so if for me
29:28like Dan Petravich is an absolute
29:30genius.
29:31>> Yeah, he's great.
29:31>> And so he he did do a post not too long
29:34ago where he's like I was wrong.
29:36>> The LMS are someone challenged him on
29:39that. Someone challenged him on so he he
29:41actually updated that post and he's like
29:43yeah he he said somebody challenged me
29:45on this and made a very good point so
29:47I'm not sure anymore.
29:49>> I know. No one's sure.
29:50>> No one knows.
29:51>> That's what I'm saying.
29:53I know. We're all We're trying to figure
29:55out. We'll let you know on a podcast
29:56episode once Jake has done his study and
29:58we have some solid data on this.
30:01>> Darren, thank you again for coming on
30:02the show. You are just one of my
30:03favorite people in the industry. You
30:05really I can't tell you how much I
30:06appreciate you and everything that you
30:08do and everything that you share.
30:10>> Thanks for having me. Let me plug our
30:12awesome software. We have a new uh White
30:15Spark local ranking grid software. If
30:17you are using some other ranking grid
30:20software, you should check ours out
30:21because damn is it good. It is like the
30:23most beautiful, easy to use, incredible
30:26competitive analysis in it. That tool, I
30:29am so proud of our team and it's it's
30:31like it's the best on the market. Just
30:32check it out. There's a free trial, no
30:34credit card. Just try it and see if you
30:36like it. If you want to switch, we'll do
30:37all the work for you. It's freaking
30:39great. So, anyways,
30:40>> what was it like what was it like
30:41building it? Why why do you like it so
30:42much?
30:43>> It took us like a year to build it. And
30:45the thing I like about it is we built it
30:48to
30:49solve the bad feelings we have using
30:51everyone else's software. We [laughter]
30:53use everyone else's software. It's so
30:55clunky and awkward and ugly. And it's
30:57like, why can't you guys make something
30:58nice and something good that's easy to
31:00use? It's delightful to use. And so that
31:02was the thing. It's like it kind of does
31:04the same thing as all the others do, but
31:07you might as well use the one. It's
31:09price is the same. Like we're we're
31:10competitively priced with everyone else,
31:12but you might as well use the one that
31:13looks great. Hey, it makes your reports
31:15look good. We have a lot of people using
31:16it for their agency sales side of
31:18things. Like they'll go to conferences
31:20and then they show people, oh, here's
31:21how you rank on the grid, but they've
31:23specifically switched us cuz it looks so
31:25great.
31:26>> And so those are the when I was when I
31:30was at Densou, it was like I when I got
31:32there, I couldn't believe how much time
31:34we were focusing on making things look
31:36nice.
31:38>> It's critical. Yeah, we're all about
31:40that at Weiss Park. We're like pretty
31:41obsessed with it. And I think it does
31:43set us apart from a lot of the other
31:45tool providers. Yeah.
31:46>> And you're very active posting.
31:49>> I'm pretty active. That's that's my job.
31:51>> All over the place. All over the place.
31:52>> Yeah. I can't keep up with you though,
31:54man. You are just like a machine. You're
31:56[laughter] you're all over every day
31:58posing multiple times. Yeah. Well, I
32:00mean, so are you. You you're you're you
32:02put up great stuff on IG, on LinkedIn,
32:05on threads.
32:06>> Um are there any other ch channels that
32:08you're active on? Oh, Facebook.
32:11>> Facebook. So LinkedIn is my biggest then
32:13Facebook. I'm on the Tik Tok. YouTube is
32:15huge, right? YouTube shorts YouTube
32:19>> and you have your own podcast or or no
32:22>> have a podcast. I run a podcast with
32:23Claire Carile which is just so fun to do
32:26and we talk about the latest news in
32:28local search. So yeah, check that out.
32:29The Whitespark Local Update. Fantastic
32:31podcast. Um and it's just it's fun. It's
32:35fun to listen to and you get to catch up
32:37on like news like I'll talk about these
32:38kind some of the things I mentioned on
32:40this call. Yeah. Darren, thank you again
32:42for coming on the show.
32:43>> Thanks for having me. It was fun. This
32:45is episode 930 of the Edward Show. 930
32:49days in a row doing this show. I was
32:51telling Darren before the show that I am
32:53coming down with a cold. I feel
32:54terrible. You can't tell cuz I'm like
32:56laughing and like, "Let's go, Darren.
32:58Darren's the best. This is great. I'm
33:00coming down cold. I do this show every
33:03day, no matter what." And so to
33:06everybody who watched this on YouTube,
33:09thank you so much for watching. If you
33:11listened on Spotify or Apple Podcasts,
33:14thank you so much for listening and I
33:16will talk to you again tomorrow.

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