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How to Communicate With Confidence & Ease (From Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor) — Transcript

by Mel Robbins · 14,502 words · 2,207 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Every person you know, every
0:02relationship in your life is a repeated
0:04sequence of conversations over time. So
0:06even if each of those conversations
0:07[music]
0:08gets a little bit better, this short
0:10time that we have on the earth,
0:11everything about it is going to get
0:13better.
0:15Communication is everything. [music]
0:16Everything. It's a series of tiny
0:18choices that you're making at every
0:20moment of every conversation.
0:22>> And you have a fourpart [music]
0:23framework that helps us communicate more
0:26effectively. Can you tell me what the
0:28four-part framework [music] is?
0:30>> Yes, very briefly. T stands for topics,
0:33A stands for [music] asking, L is for
0:35levity, and K is for kindness. In my
0:38[music] class, we do an exercise called
0:40neverending follow-up questions.
0:41>> Uh-oh. I have a feel like we're about to
0:43do this.
0:44>> Do you want to try it?
0:45>> Yes.
0:47>> Like, we're all on these journeys
0:49looking for those magical moments of
0:51connection, and sometimes they happen.
0:53This is where real power and authority
0:54and influence come from. When we think
0:56of people who are charismatic and
0:58competent, [music] this is what they're
1:00doing.
1:00>> And that's what you're going to teach us
1:01today.
1:02>> That's what I'm going to teach you
1:02today.
1:04>> Professor Allison Woodbrooks, welcome to
1:06the Mel Robbins podcast.
1:08>> I'm so happy to be here, Mel. Thank you.
1:10>> I am so excited to just dig into your
1:14research and learn everything that we
1:16can learn from this crazy popular class
1:18that you teach at Harvard Business
1:20School. But here's where I want to
1:21start. There is a person listening right
1:23now who has no time
1:25>> and yet they found time and made time
1:28>> to be with you and me right now. What
1:32can the person listening expect to
1:35change about their life? If they take
1:36everything that you're about to teach us
1:38and they try it and they put it to use
1:41if they really take what we talk about
1:43to heart, I think everything about their
1:46life could get better. your love life,
1:49your relationship with your children,
1:51your relationship with your parents,
1:53your work, your relationships with your
1:56colleagues, what you're able to get done
1:57together, everything, every person you
1:59know, every relationship in your life is
2:02a repeated sequence of conversations
2:04over time. So even if each of those
2:07conversations gets a little bit better,
2:09this short time that we have on the
2:11earth, everything about it is going to
2:12get better.
2:14>> Wow.
2:15You just said our whole life is going to
2:17get better. Why does communication
2:18matter so much?
2:20>> Communication is everything. Everything.
2:22So really, you can think of every
2:24relationship in your life as this
2:25repeated sequence of conversations. And
2:28if you zero in on each one of those
2:30conversations, it's a series of tiny
2:32choices that you're making at every
2:34moment of every conversation. And we're
2:36about to do it right now, Mel. Um, every
2:39moment you're making these choices. What
2:41should we be talking about? What should
2:42I be asking the other person about? When
2:45should we be laughing? When should we be
2:46crying? Uh when should I ask a question?
2:49When should I share something of myself?
2:51We're making these tiny micro decisions
2:53all the way along. And it's going to
2:55determine what we're able to do
2:57together, what we're able to accomplish
2:59together, what we're able to learn about
3:01each other. How we talk is who we are
3:04and what we're able to do in the world.
3:07I love how you framed it because I was
3:09sitting here thinking, I hope that she
3:11can help me not have so many regrets
3:13because I think a lot of us leave a
3:15conversation, you're like, "Oh, I wish I
3:16hadn't have said that." Or, "Oh, I wish
3:18I would have brought that up." But
3:19you're also talking about the power of
3:22forward momentum.
3:24>> Yeah.
3:24>> By small shifts in these interactions
3:28that we have with people at work, in our
3:30love life, in our families that can
3:32change everything. And you have earned
3:35the right to talk about this and to
3:37teach us this because you created and
3:40you teach a wildly popular and
3:43award-winning Harvard Business School
3:46course. It is called Talk: How to Talk
3:48Goodter in Business and Life. And I'm
3:52not that good with grammar being
3:55dyslexic, but I know that goodter is
3:58probably not the right word. So, but I
4:00have a feeling it's intentional. Why the
4:01hell do you call it how to talk goodter
4:03in business and life?
4:04>> I have to tell you getting that that
4:06course title approved by the administr
4:08by the powers that be at Harvard is one
4:10of the greatest accomplishments of my
4:12professional life. It's sitting next to
4:14so many serious courses like democracy
4:16in America and capitalism in today's
4:18age. Um it was intentional. It has a few
4:22different meanings. Of course, it's
4:23grammatically incorrect which drives
4:25some people up the wall, but there's two
4:27meanings. uh a huge part of the course
4:29is about balancing gravity and levity.
4:33>> And so I really wanted to signal that in
4:35the course title. We're going to take
4:36conversation, we're going to take our
4:38work very seriously, but in order to do
4:40that, we need to also maintain a spirit
4:42of play and fun. We have to have fun
4:44together or we aren't going to feel
4:46safe. We're not going to be able to make
4:47progress. Uh the word goodter also is
4:51really rooted in this word good. Um
4:53we're going to work towards a goal of
4:55kindness. We want to be good people when
4:57we're talking to other people and
5:00hopefully a little bit goodter.
5:02>> So I want to hear the story behind what
5:04made you want to even create this
5:07course? Because if you're really
5:08thinking about it, you've got Harvard
5:10Business School 11% acceptance rate.
5:12Aren't the people going to Harvard
5:14Business School already good at
5:15communicating?
5:16>> I know this is what everybody thinks and
5:18and in a way yes and in a way no. Okay.
5:20Okay. Uh when I was originally recruited
5:22to be on the faculty at Harvard, I was
5:24recruited to teach a course on
5:25negotiation.
5:26>> And by the way, the negotiation course
5:28at Harvard is like legendary.
5:31>> Yeah. Some of the some of my colleagues
5:33were sort of the founders of this
5:35framework that is now taught at every
5:37business school, at every law school. Um
5:39it's really an incredible course.
5:41>> Why were they recruiting you? I don't
5:42mean to be rude, but like what were you
5:44doing at the time that made them go, "We
5:45got to have Professor Brooks here."
5:47[laughter]
5:47>> Um well, I went to grad school. I went
5:50to grad school in a business school at
5:51Wharton in Philadelphia. I was obsessed
5:54with humans and people and figuring us
5:57all out. And I was a behavioral
5:58scientist. And in grad school, I spent
6:01my time studying emotions, the way that
6:03we feel on the inside, but also how we
6:06talk about our feelings with other
6:07people. And one of the places that I
6:10studied emotions was in negotiations.
6:13When you put people in these difficult
6:14situations, how do they feel? How are
6:17their feelings influencing their
6:18behavior? and what they're able to do
6:20when they're negotiating.
6:21>> Well, that's super cool. So, this is
6:23your area of expertise. You get
6:24recruited to go to Harvard Business
6:26School to teach this course in
6:28negotiation. What happened?
6:29>> Yeah. So, I was there. I taught
6:30negotiation for about four years. It's
6:32an amazing course. You spend time
6:34practicing in doing these role plays of,
6:37okay, you're going to be you're the
6:39manager of a factory and you need to
6:40negotiate and procure some of these hard
6:42things or oh, now you're going to
6:44negotiate for a new house. Okay, let's
6:46do that. Let's go practice. So you do
6:48these role plays,
6:49>> you learn great frameworks about how to
6:51do it better.
6:52>> But even as I was teaching this great
6:54class and I could feel that my students
6:56were getting so much value from it, I
6:58realized that we were missing something.
7:00>> Okay.
7:01>> When I think about negotiations, you
7:03realize how often am I doing that? How
7:05often are you doing this? Um maybe
7:08you're negotiating for a new car or a
7:10new house or a higher salary. I don't
7:13know, maybe once every two months,
7:16maybe. And what I started to realize is
7:18like, wait, but we have to talk to
7:20people all day long, every day. And I
7:24don't think of those as negotiations.
7:25That seems like a different nut to
7:27crack.
7:28>> Yeah.
7:29>> And many of our students at Harvard are
7:31actually already quite strategic. So,
7:33some of the lessons that we're teaching
7:34them in negotiation are pretty intuitive
7:37to them. We're taking strategic people
7:38and like teaching them to be even more
7:40strategic. And I was like, whoa, whoa,
7:42whoa, whoa. I think what these people
7:45need might be how do we teach them to be
7:47more engaging and fun and funny and
7:50interesting and dynamic and more
7:52empathic. Um where's the course that can
7:56help them to do that?
7:58>> And there wasn't one.
7:59>> Uh they've tried many ways over the
8:01years and none of them have really
8:03stuck.
8:04>> Okay. So you come up with this course
8:06called talk.
8:07>> Yeah.
8:08>> And based on your research, why is
8:11communication so challenging for people?
8:13Oh my gosh, communication is challenging
8:15for a million reasons. Um, when you
8:18think if you asked me to make a list of
8:20the mistakes that people make in
8:23conversation, I would go on and on. We
8:25choose the wrong topics. We forget to
8:26raise the topics that we should talk
8:28about. We don't ask enough questions. We
8:30ask too many questions. We're talk too
8:32much about ourselves. We don't focus
8:34enough on the other person. We brag. We
8:36humble brag. We give backhanded
8:38compliments. We we do all of these
8:40things. The laundry list is so long it
8:44feels almost insurmountable.
8:47And I'm in my mind I'm like, wait, but
8:49people can't keep all of those things in
8:51their heads all the time. What they
8:53really need is a simple framework that
8:56can help them wrap their arms around
8:58this vast ocean of complexity that is in
9:02every conversation. And when you look
9:04under the hood of every conversation,
9:06you start to realize how complex it
9:08really is.
9:08>> And that's what you're going to teach us
9:09today. That's what I'm going to teach
9:10you.
9:10>> This simple framework. Um, Professor
9:13Brooks, before we jump into
9:16the takeaways from this class and all of
9:20the research that you've done on the
9:22science of communication, can you just
9:25tell me and the person who's listening,
9:28how exactly does becoming a better
9:31communicator impact you for real? Yeah,
9:34becoming a better communicator is going
9:36to help you gain and maintain higher
9:39status.
9:39>> What does that mean?
9:40>> When I use the word status, what I mean
9:42is um likability, respect, um power, uh
9:47what the kids these days would call riz,
9:49right? It's these pe people who have
9:51high status are the ones we admire that
9:53we like that have power in their groups
9:55at work, in their friend groups, in
9:57their families. And so when you hear me
9:59say high status, I'm not talking about
10:01like fancy or high fallutin or what
10:04social class you're in. Literally in
10:06your social group, are you respected? Do
10:09you have power? Do you have influence?
10:12>> Well, that's everything.
10:13>> Yeah, it's everything.
10:14>> Wow. So learning to be a better
10:17communicator by really taking all this
10:20science of communication that you teach
10:22at Harvard Business School and applying
10:24it means you'll have more respect.
10:26You'll have more influence whether
10:28you're talking about in your home with
10:29your family or you're talking about with
10:31your colleagues or you're talking about
10:32in the classroom or the hospital you
10:34work with.
10:35>> We're really talking about your ability
10:38to not only communicate but to be
10:40respected and admired by your peers and
10:42listened to.
10:42>> That's right. and have a little fun
10:43while you're doing it.
10:45>> All right. Well, let's dig in to all of
10:47your research. Um, what do you think is
10:49the single biggest reason
10:52>> why most people can't communicate
10:54effectively?
10:55>> Probably, if I was forced to choose the
10:57single biggest reason is our human
10:59nature of egoentrism. Uh, our
11:01>> that's a big word. What does that mean?
11:03>> Yeah. Self-centered. We're
11:04self-centered. We're self-focused. Our
11:06brains are built for survival. We're
11:09focused on what is my perspective? How
11:11can I stave off dangers and fears and
11:14stay alive and sort of proliferate my
11:16own life and protect my family? And
11:19egoentric that that self-focus is good
11:22for survival back when we were hunters
11:24and gatherers, but in today's day and
11:26age, it also holds us back from really
11:28connecting with other people. You have
11:31to relentlessly sort of fight against
11:33your self-centered instincts to really
11:35focus on another person. M Well, that's
11:38true cuz you go into a conversation sort
11:40of with that default mode of like what's
11:43in this for me?
11:44>> Yeah.
11:44>> And if you're thinking about it from
11:47what's in it for you, you're probably
11:50already starting off on the wrong foot
11:52>> in a bad place. Yes.
11:54>> You know, I recently read research,
11:56Professor Brooks, that every generation
11:58is getting worse at communicating. Do
12:01you think that's true?
12:03>> I don't know. I don't think every
12:04generation is getting worse. I think um
12:08people human beings have probably always
12:10struggled with conversation. Let me back
12:12up for a moment.
12:13>> In the book, we talk about conversation
12:15as a coordination game. And a
12:18coordination game is any sort of
12:20decision you need to make independently
12:22between two or more people uh where you
12:26can't communicate. So the game of
12:28chicken is a good example where you're
12:29sort of hurdling towards each other and
12:31you have to choose do I veer left or
12:32veer right and both people have to
12:34choose without talking to each other.
12:36They have to coordinate. Okay. So a
12:39conversation is like this game of
12:40chicken except you're making these
12:42relentless coordination decisions.
12:44You're deciding what are we going to
12:45talk about? What am I going to disclose
12:47about it? How are we going to talk about
12:48it? Are we going to be silly? Are we
12:49going to be serious? Are we going to
12:51>> am I going to talk about it at all?
12:52Because now when you said chicken, I
12:54thought,
12:54>> wait a minute, the person listening, I
12:56know me, has somebody in their life they
12:59have to deal with that they can't quite
13:01communicate with.
13:02>> It can get very frustrating.
13:04>> Yes.
13:05>> And you know, we don't even think about
13:06it. We just then start to avoid the
13:08person that we're having trouble
13:09communicating with.
13:10>> What do you think all of us get wrong
13:12when it comes to communication?
13:14>> Oh, so there's this. So there's this
13:16focus on the self which starts you from
13:18a place of getting you off on a bad foot
13:21and you're f often focusing on yourself
13:23the whole way along. Uh researchers have
13:25sort of found consensus on this idea
13:28that failures and perspective taking
13:30being able to understand the other
13:32person's point of view and their mind is
13:34the single greatest barrier to conflict
13:37resolution and to connection. And that's
13:40true at every moment of every
13:42conversation. We struggle to understand
13:44what the other person is thinking and
13:46feeling and what they're going to say
13:47and do next. We rely on our own beliefs,
13:51our own opinions, our own feelings to
13:53guess how somebody else is is feeling.
13:56And we're really bad at guessing.
13:57>> You know, I've already learned
13:58something, which is I assumed, and I I'm
14:02sure we'll get into it, that being a
14:04better communicator is about you
14:07speaking differently.
14:09And what you're already kind of
14:11signaling is, wait a minute, if you
14:13can't actually understand that
14:14communicating is about connecting with
14:16somebody. Yeah. And being able to stop
14:19yourself and truly step into somebody
14:22else's shoes and imagine what they might
14:25be feeling. If you can't do that, you
14:27can't communicate. Is that what you're
14:28basically saying?
14:29>> That's exactly right. Because
14:30conversation is co-constructed. It's
14:32between two people or more. It's not a
14:35you thing. It's not it's it's completely
14:37separate from public speaking which
14:40where it's like one person standing on a
14:42stage not getting a response. Dialogue
14:45is about back and forth. You take turns
14:47speaking and listening and you don't
14:49know what your partner's going to say
14:51next, but you're going to have to
14:52respond to it. It's cocreated. So, it's
14:55really not about you. It's about you
14:57plus the other person and what you can
14:59build together.
15:00>> I love that. And so, you've taken a
15:02decade of research.
15:03>> Yeah. And you have a fourpart framework
15:06that helps us communicate more
15:08effectively. Can you tell me what the
15:10four-part framework is?
15:11>> Yes, very briefly. T stands for topics,
15:15A stands for asking, L is for levity,
15:18and K is for kindness. I realize you
15:21take an entire semester at Harvard
15:23Business School to unpack the four-part
15:26framework, but today, Professor Brooks,
15:29you are going to teach us this four-part
15:31framework step by step. So, let's start
15:35with the first part. T is for topics.
15:39So, topics are the things we talk about,
15:42right? If I asked you after this
15:44recording to look back and say, "What
15:46did we talk about?" You could your brain
15:48would be really good at organizing and
15:50categorizing. Oh well, we first we
15:52talked about your course and then we
15:54talked about topics and then this.
15:56>> So your bra our brains are really good
15:57at chunking things into segments into
16:00topics.
16:01>> Okay,
16:02>> which is so helpful in practice because
16:05it means that we can use that ability to
16:08steer topics while we're talking to each
16:10other.
16:10>> But don't you have to be really good at
16:12communicating in order to steer the
16:14topics?
16:14>> You do not have to be good. You just you
16:16just have to know that it's happening.
16:18And so I think often when you say like
16:20top what topic you're going to talk
16:22about, people think about the opening
16:23topic like
16:24>> well let's put us at the scene. How
16:26would you use the t topic part of the
16:29four-part framework to let's say you're
16:32going out on a date.
16:33>> Yeah.
16:33>> Okay. How do you use topic to help you
16:36be a better communicator? Anyone who's
16:38going out on a date is already thinking
16:40about what they're going to wear, how
16:42they're going to do their hair, what
16:43makeup they're going to put on, where
16:44they're going to what restaurant they're
16:45going to meet at, what activity they're
16:47going to do.
16:48>> We do all of this prep work ahead of
16:50time.
16:50>> Uhhuh.
16:51>> Only 10% of people think about what
16:54they're going to talk about once they
16:55get there.
16:56>> You're spending so much time showering
16:59and getting dressed and making the
17:01reservation at the restaurant. At the
17:03same time, you should be thinking about
17:05what are some things that'll be fun for
17:06us to talk about once we're together.
17:08So, topic prep.
17:10>> That's step number one. Think ahead.
17:12>> Wow. And you could do that for anything.
17:15You could do that if you're getting
17:16together with your family. So, if you're
17:17tired of the same old same old with your
17:20family,
17:20>> like think about interesting things that
17:23you could talk about or questions to
17:24ask. How do you even teach yourself to
17:26be good at topic prep if you've never
17:28even thought about this?
17:29>> You just have to start doing it.
17:30>> What do you mean? So, a lot of people
17:32are very averse to topic prep,
17:34especially with people they know well.
17:36They feel like they shouldn't need to
17:38plan topics for someone that they're
17:40very close to. They'll just know what to
17:42talk about once they're together.
17:43>> I'm guilty of that.
17:44>> Yeah, it's normal. A lot of people feel
17:45that way,
17:46>> which is why we then go, "How are your
17:47kids and how is work and what's going
17:49on?
17:49>> The weather, oh, let's talk about the
17:51appetizer in front of us on this table."
17:54We tend to grab things that are right
17:56there in our environment that are easy
17:57to talk about, but it doesn't mean it's
17:59the right thing to talk about. It's not
18:00the most fun thing to talk about a
18:03little bit of forethought. So, we have
18:04research on this. We've studied uh
18:06people who we ask to even spend 30
18:09seconds 30 seconds ahead of a
18:11conversation brainstorming possible
18:13topics that they could talk about. Then
18:15we let them go and have their
18:17conversation versus people who just walk
18:19in and have the conversation like you
18:21normally would have. The people who have
18:23prepped, even for 30 seconds, even if
18:26they don't end up raising those topics,
18:29their conversation is better. It's more
18:31enjoyable. It's more fluent. You're less
18:34anxious. You know those little panicky
18:36moments when you're not sure, you know
18:37that something's getting boring and you
18:39need to switch, but you don't know where
18:40to go. Yes.
18:41>> That doesn't happen anymore. You've got
18:43options like in your back pocket, in
18:44your mind. Oh, yeah. If there's a lag, I
18:47need to remember to ask about their kid
18:48who'd had tried out for the hockey team.
18:50Right. So you've always got an option, a
18:53backup plan for the panicky moments.
18:55Turns out it makes a conversation much
18:57more enjoyable as well. You tend to
18:59switch topics a little more frequently
19:01and you're more likely to land on things
19:03that are mutually interesting to
19:05everybody involved. So, if the person
19:07listening right now is super
19:08introverted,
19:09>> yeah,
19:09>> very shy, and they're now having a panic
19:11attack about this idea of I got to come
19:14with topics, what is the best way to
19:19help you become good at doing this if
19:23you don't think that this is going to
19:24come naturally to you?
19:26>> Totally. I think the first thing is
19:27don't have a panic attack. This might be
19:29the greatest ar tool that you've ever
19:31added to your arsenal as an introvert in
19:33your life because so much of why
19:35introverts feel panicked once they're in
19:37social situations is that they don't
19:39know what to say. They don't really want
19:41to approach these difficult moments.
19:43Having some topics prepped eases all of
19:46that.
19:46>> And once you experience the magic of
19:48topic prep in action, you're like, "Oh
19:50my god, this is it. I should have been
19:52doing this my whole life." For the most
19:54part, you know who you're going to see
19:55in a day. M
19:56>> you might know the specific people
19:58whether it's your kids and your spouse
20:00and then the this set of colleagues and
20:02then knowing who you're going to see
20:04means that you can prep topics for all
20:06of them in a personalized way.
20:08>> So walk me through the day.
20:09>> Yeah. Okay. So we're going through the
20:10day. You wake up, you see your kids
20:12before they get on the school bus and
20:14you're talking to your spouse. Um you
20:16can think about ahead of time what are
20:18each of my kids doing today? Where what
20:20are their pain points? What are they
20:22probably feeling excited about? What are
20:24they nervous about? what's going on in
20:26their life? Do they have band at school?
20:28Um, instead of just being like, remember
20:30your trumpet? You could be like, you
20:32know, how is band? What's going on? When
20:33you're in band, how do you feel? What
20:35are you looking forward to about it?
20:36Right? Like get that's going to be so
20:38much more interesting than just like
20:41don't don't forget your trumpet and they
20:42rush out the door.
20:43>> Then you get to work and your colleague
20:45who's kind of quiet. What's a topic that
20:47you could bring up with a colleague?
20:48>> Anything. I mean, it depends on the
20:49colleague, right? Let's imagine that
20:51it's a colleague that you love and you
20:53are thinking about their life. Um, they
20:56[snorts] just had a new child. I mean,
20:58ask how that's going. You know, having a
21:00new child is a traumatic and dramatic
21:02thing. How's it going? Are you changing
21:04so many diapers? Whatever. Or they had a
21:07big, you know, they had a big
21:08presentation last week. Um, how did it
21:10go? What was good about it? What was
21:12hard? Anything I can help you with on
21:13it?
21:14>> Now, give me one for my mom and dad
21:15because I have the same conversation
21:17with them over and over and over. How'd
21:18it go? What'd you do? How was golf? What
21:20are you doing tonight?
21:21>> You know what? So, my my sister just did
21:23the most amazing thing with my for my
21:25parents. She actually uh used chatbt to
21:28ask to prep topics with them.
21:29>> How do you do that?
21:30>> Um, so she she typed in to chatt. She
21:33was like, "What do you think people who
21:36live in upstate New York in their 70s
21:38who have nine grandchildren? What are
21:39the types of questions that they want me
21:41to ask them?"
21:42>> What?
21:42>> Yeah. Yeah. Because you know the
21:44internet knows that demographic better
21:47than we as individuals could possibly
21:49know that demographic.
21:50>> I can literally hear the person
21:51listening tap tap tap tap tap tap tap
21:53about everybody in their life.
21:55>> Everyone in your life. You could use it
21:56to prep topics. You could even say um
21:58chat tpt uh what do you think this
22:01colleague who doesn't really like me
22:03because of this reason uh we got in an
22:06argument once about this thing and now
22:08they're mad at me. What would they want
22:09me to do? What would they want to talk
22:11about with me if anything? It's It's
22:13wild.
22:13>> You know, you're really smart. You
22:15should consider teaching a class on
22:17this. [laughter]
22:18>> What is the second part of the talk
22:20framework for communicating better?
22:22>> Yeah. So, A is for asking.
22:24>> Okay.
22:25>> Yeah. Ask more questions, ask better
22:27questions.
22:28>> Now, you're making me panic because I
22:30don't know if my question is going to be
22:31better. What is a better question?
22:33>> You're already a great question asker. I
22:34mean, look, you've prepped topics and
22:36you're asking so many questions. We're
22:38already off to a great start, Mel. Um,
22:41so what's so funny is a pattern that you
22:44might pick up on here is that in every
22:46conversation once you're in it, it's
22:49very overwhelming. There's a you're
22:51making tons of choices. You're trying to
22:52listen to what the other person is
22:54saying. You're trying to process it.
22:55You're trying to do this tiny creativity
22:58task of how do I come up with something
23:00interesting to say back to them. That's
23:02really hard on your brain. That's a lot
23:04of cognitive effort. So, anything you
23:07can do ahead of the conversation like
23:09topic prep is helpful. And any sort of
23:11trick that you can have during the
23:13conversation can also be helpful. And
23:15that's why asking questions is such a
23:18superpower. You don't need to have
23:20prepped it ahead of time. All you need
23:22to do is listen to what your partner is
23:24saying and ask about it. Ask more about
23:26it.
23:27>> Huh. Well, how can asking better
23:30questions or asking more questions
23:32improve connection and make you better
23:34at communicating? Our inability to
23:36understand other people's perspectives
23:38is a huge barrier to conflict management
23:41and connection. The antidote to that is
23:44question asking. It is a direct pathway
23:47to get what's in your head out of your
23:49head and share it with me. Um, in my
23:52class, we do an exercise called
23:54neverending follow-up questions.
23:55>> Do you want I have a feel like we're
23:57about to do this. Yes.
23:58>> Do you want to try it?
23:58>> Yes.
23:59>> Okay. I'll ask questions and you answer
24:01and then maybe we can switch roles.
24:02Okay.
24:03>> Okay. Um, Mel, what did you have for
24:05breakfast this morning?
24:06>> Uh, a smoothie.
24:07>> Oh, what was in your smoothie?
24:09>> Uh, it was this protein powder and a
24:12little bit of honey and two lemons that
24:14we squeeze and then some water and then
24:17zip it up and then slurp it down.
24:19>> That sounds so healthy. If you had your
24:22dream breakfast, would it be this
24:24protein smoothie? What would be in your
24:26dream breakfast?
24:27>> Um, it depends on the day. I'm a very
24:30kind of not picky is the wrong word. I'm
24:32the kind of person that I eat based on
24:35my mood. So some morning's dream
24:37breakfast would be scrambled eggs,
24:40avocado, kimchi. Another day it might be
24:43the smoothie. Another day it might be
24:45something else.
24:46>> Amazing. So you like variety. Uh where
24:48do you think that like need for variety
24:50comes from every day? Why would you be
24:52happy having the same thing every day?
24:53>> I got to share how I feel.
24:55>> Tell me tell me how you're doing it.
24:56Tell me how it's going.
24:58>> It's amazing because I can tell you're
25:00really interested. And so as every
25:02question you ask, I'm like, "Oh, she's
25:04really interested in what I had for, oh,
25:06my breakfast is very interesting." And
25:09so you're demonstrating that saying, "In
25:13order to be interesting, be interested
25:15in somebody else."
25:16>> Exactly. And you know, we both know, we
25:18have this common knowledge that I'm
25:19doing this very extreme thing. I'm
25:21asking a follow-up question every time I
25:24talked just then.
25:25>> Yes.
25:25>> That sounds so extreme. That sounds like
25:27a lot of questions. And it also, some of
25:30my students are like, "Isn't this
25:31manipulative? If you know that that's
25:33what you're going to do, doesn't that
25:34undermine our authenticity? Do is the
25:37other person going to actually feel like
25:38you want to learn about their
25:40breakfast?" And I'm like, "Guys, even if
25:42you know that's what you're doing, I
25:43still really care. I really want to hear
25:45about your breakfast and your habits and
25:47what you what you like. It's just a
25:49nudge to do it a little bit better."
25:52What if you get really good at asking
25:53questions and you notice most people you
25:56talk to never
25:59ask you a question about you?
26:02>> Listen, we've all been on that
26:03[clears throat] date, Mel. We've all
26:04been on a date with We call these people
26:06ZQS.
26:07>> ZQS.
26:08>> Zero questions. Zero questioners. Um my
26:12hope and what I want to say to the
26:14people listening is don't leave a
26:16conversation having asked zero
26:18questions. But what do you do if you're
26:20the one who's just poured into somebody
26:22else?
26:23>> Yeah.
26:23>> And that it's like crickets.
26:25>> Yeah. Well, as in all things in life,
26:27you don't have control over what other
26:29people do in a conversation. Reflecting
26:31about what you do have control over,
26:33like, okay, well, let's try and shift to
26:34a new topic that maybe they're more
26:36likely to ask me a question. Maybe we
26:38shift to something where you have some
26:40expertise and they know you have
26:42expertise, so they should ask you even
26:44more that you have um ask you questions.
26:47So, you shouldn't like say something
26:49insulting back or there's no backhanded
26:51compliment that you're teaching in at
26:52Harvard Business School to say to
26:54somebody.
26:54>> I No,
26:55>> I I know that was kind of a joke, but it
26:58is annoying as hell, though.
26:59>> It's really annoying. It's really
27:00annoying.
27:01>> I guess you're just saying make a mental
27:02note.
27:03>> I mean, when And in the context, let's
27:04go back to this context of dating. If
27:06you're on a date with somebody, they go
27:07a whole date, two whole dates, three
27:10whole dates, not asking you much at all.
27:12That could be a legitimate reason to not
27:14keep dating them. Well, why would you?
27:16>> Yeah,
27:17>> if after two dates they don't ask you a
27:19single question.
27:20>> Yeah.
27:20>> I mean, I think that's a gigantic red
27:23flag.
27:24>> I left a date in the middle after like
27:2620 minutes once because
27:27>> How did you do that?
27:27>> I excuse myself to the bathroom. I
27:30looked right into the mirror and I was
27:31like, "This is never going to work. I
27:33can't be with someone for the You can't
27:34be with someone for the rest of your
27:36life who within 20 minutes has made you
27:39feel infuriated that they're not
27:41interested in you." And so that was
27:43that. And what we all want to know,
27:46Professor Brooks, when you walked back
27:48to the table, what did you say?
27:50>> Yeah, I said, "This was really nice. Um,
27:51we'll follow up. Um, good luck." And I
27:54just I left. I did text him later and I
27:56did give him the feedback. I did say,
27:59you know, I really was It was a little
28:00frustrating that he didn't ask me
28:02anything about myself. I I don't usually
28:03do that with people, but in that case,
28:05it just seemed like he really needed to
28:07know.
28:07>> And what did he say?
28:09>> I think he was like, "Oh, I'm so sorry."
28:11>> Well, at least he he said something.
28:13Exactly.
28:14>> Wow. Okay.
28:15>> Still still no question though, M.
28:16>> But based on the fact that this is your
28:18area of expertise, what do you know
28:21>> about those situations?
28:23>> Yeah.
28:24>> Where you're either have a family member
28:28or you have a colleague or a boss or a
28:31friend that actually never asks anything
28:34about you.
28:35>> Yeah.
28:35>> Based on the research and your
28:37experience,
28:38what is the kind interpretation
28:41>> Yeah.
28:41>> of that situation?
28:42>> Yeah. There's a lot that holds people
28:43back from asking questions and it's not
28:45all disinterest. Okay.
28:47>> Um sometimes it's it's again this
28:49self-centeredness. They so there are
28:51some people who don't even think to ask
28:52questions because they're so focused on
28:54themselves and what's going on in their
28:56own mind and what they can share and
28:58dazzle you with. Um other times though
29:00people realize they should be asking
29:02questions and they struggle to do it
29:03because they're afraid. They're afraid
29:05of being too intrusive. They're afraid
29:08that they ask something that it makes
29:10them look incompetent, like they should
29:12already know the answer.
29:14>> Um, and these fears are usually
29:16misplaced. Um, but those fears do hold
29:18people back from asking questions.
29:19>> Got it. That is a kind interpretation.
29:21>> Yes, it is.
29:22>> Where does listening
29:24>> fall into your fourpart framework?
29:27Because we've talked about topic
29:29selection and asking questions, but what
29:32about listening? Yeah, it's funny that
29:33this framework is called talk because
29:35listening is the glue that holds it all
29:37together. Um, it's so very important.
29:42Um, I know that you have attention
29:44challenges. I also have attention
29:46challenges. Turns out most humans have
29:48attention challenges. Our minds, our
29:50resting state of our minds is in a mind
29:52wandering mode. And so the demand of
29:56conversation to try and focus our
29:58wandering minds on another person
30:00continuously for a whole conversation is
30:03incredibly challenging. It's takes a lot
30:05of hard work. Some people are better at
30:07it than others. But if you put in that
30:09hard work to be engaged with somebody
30:12even while your mind is wandering um you
30:15should get credit for it. And in our
30:16research we've studied the ways that you
30:18can get credit for your good listening.
30:19>> By get credit, what do you mean? So, get
30:21credit meaning you want your partner to
30:23know that you've that you've heard them.
30:25>> Oh god, I feel like you're in the middle
30:28of my marriage [laughter]
30:31because I can't tell you how many times
30:35I've been in a conversation with my
30:37husband and I'm doing something so I
30:40turn my back on him.
30:42>> Yeah.
30:42>> And he's like, "Are you listening to
30:44me?" And then I pair it back word for
30:46word what he just said.
30:47>> Good. And then we get into this little
30:51thing where he's like, "I didn't ask if
30:54you heard me.
30:55>> I asked if you're listening because I
30:57don't feel like you are."
30:58>> Okay, let's break down listening. This
31:00is so this is incredibly common. Okay.
31:03>> Um, so listening is three steps. The
31:06first step is hearing and seeing your
31:09partner. All of the cues that the person
31:12is giving to you, their words, the sound
31:14of their voice, their non-verbal
31:16behaviors, everything that comes in
31:17through your eyes and ears, that's the
31:19sort of physical part of listening. Then
31:21your brain does step two, which is I'm
31:23going to think about some of the stuff
31:25that I'm hearing and seeing. I'm going
31:27to elaborate on it in my mind. Step
31:29three is this unique thing that's
31:31offered by conversation, which is I can
31:34show back to you that I heard you and
31:36that I was thinking about it. Okay?
31:38>> And that's how we get our credit. And
31:39that's how you get our credit. So the
31:40decades of research on active listening
31:42have mostly focused on non-verbals. So
31:44the fact that you turned your back on
31:46your husband makes him feel like you're
31:48not listening to him cuz your
31:50non-verbals were sort of inongruent with
31:52what was going on in your mind.
31:54>> Correct.
31:54>> Okay. So he's sort of like, well, if
31:56you're going to put in the hard work to
31:57actually listen to me, like why don't
31:59turn your back on me? That makes me feel
32:00like you're not you don't care about
32:02what I'm saying.
32:03>> Okay. So many decades of focus on these
32:06non-verbal cues, making eye contact,
32:08nodding, smiling, facing someone,
32:10leaning forward as you're talking to
32:12them. Um, that's all great. That's like
32:15listening 101. All right. So, don't turn
32:17your back on your husband if you're
32:18listening to him.
32:19>> And I'm definitely not going to swivel
32:20this chair while we're talking.
32:21[laughter]
32:22>> Exactly. We could try it. Um, but the
32:25listening 2011 sort of more advanced is
32:28using your words to show someone that
32:30you've heard them. So while nodding and
32:33smiling and facing someone can be faked,
32:36right? Even if you were facing your
32:38husband, you could have been nodding and
32:40smiling and not listening to him.
32:42>> The fact that you were able to repeat
32:43back exactly what he said, he should be
32:46thrilled, right? Like you really were
32:48listening to him and you were able to
32:50repeat it back, but you didn't make him
32:51feel heard in that moment with your with
32:53your non-verbal cues.
32:54>> Yeah. Because the tone of voice was
32:55snarky. I heard everything that you
32:57said. So that was bad on you.
33:00>> That's part of it. Yep. That's part of
33:01it. But this using your words is really
33:04important. So the best listening often
33:06is spoken. It includes repeating back
33:08what someone has said to you. It can be
33:10invalidating or affirming them in their
33:12feelings, saying like, "Oh, I'm hearing
33:13that you sound a bit a little bit sad
33:15about that. Um, it makes sense that you
33:17would feel sad about whatever the fact
33:19that you didn't win the role in the
33:20school play." Just saying that it makes
33:23sense that you feel X about why is one
33:28of the most powerful phrases that you
33:29can say to another person.
33:31>> Well, one of the most powerful things
33:32that I hear my colleagues say at work is
33:35what I heard you say is this. Yeah.
33:36>> And this is what I'm going to do.
33:38>> Yeah.
33:39>> Is that right? And then the second I
33:40hear that, I'm like, "Oh my gosh."
33:42Heard.
33:43>> Yeah. It's it's exactly right. So,
33:44they're they're affirming they're
33:46acknowledging what you said. They're
33:47affirming what you said. They're also
33:48checking to make sure they've understood
33:50you explicitly. Linguists call this
33:52grounding. It's making sure that your
33:54shared understanding actually is shared
33:56and it's accurate. And if it's not
33:58accurate, it gives you the opportunity
33:59to repair it, to correct it and say,
34:01"Oh, that's not actually what I meant.
34:02What I meant was this." And we're
34:05constantly doing that checking and
34:07repairing process while we talk to other
34:09people. And so speaking, you're
34:10listening is so powerful. Follow-up
34:12questions do the same thing. You can
34:14only follow up if you've heard what they
34:16said before.
34:17paraphrasing. If you're in a group and a
34:19couple other people have said something,
34:21you can say, "Okay, what I'm hearing
34:23here is, I think we as a group feel like
34:26we want to have fun, but we also need to
34:28make this hard decision." Is that right?
34:30So, just kind of summarizing what people
34:33before you have said is another way of
34:35doing it in the sort of group context.
34:37>> Amazing.
34:37>> Yeah.
34:38>> Since you teach this at Harvard Business
34:40School, I would love for you to just
34:43explain why this matters. Yeah,
34:46>> because
34:48it may seem as though
34:55it's a really important skill at work.
34:58>> Yeah.
34:59>> Because if you're in a meeting and
35:02somebody all of a sudden is summarizing
35:05everything that they heard
35:07>> Yeah.
35:08>> you turn and look at that person are
35:10like, "Oh, that person's powerful."
35:12>> Yeah. And so how does the skills that
35:16we've talked about so far, topic
35:18selection, asking, this active listening
35:22that demonstrates something, translate
35:26to more authority and influence, whether
35:28it's at work or it's in your home or
35:30it's in a friendship.
35:32>> Yeah. This is where real power and
35:33authority and influence come from. When
35:35we think of people who are charismatic
35:37and competent, this is what they're
35:39doing. They are actually listening.
35:41They're putting in the hard work to
35:42listen to other people. They're putting
35:44in the hard work to think about it. And
35:46then they are saying it out loud. They
35:48are saying, "Wow, I really heard you say
35:50this and it seemed like you maybe feel
35:51anxious about this thing. Can you tell
35:53me more about that?" [gasps]
35:54>> Just being able to do that is
35:56incredible. It that is sort of the found
35:58what competence is when we're talking
36:01about interpersonal contexts.
36:03>> It's so true. So the four-part framework
36:06of talk, what is L?
36:08>> L is levity, Mel. Thank goodness. It's
36:11levity. And levity includes moments of
36:14humor, but also unfunny moments of
36:17warmth. And levity is the antidote for
36:20boredom.
36:21>> Why is humor such a powerful tool if you
36:26want to be better at communicating?
36:27>> Yeah. Listen, when we think of
36:29conversations that have gone off the
36:30rails or have not gone well, it's very
36:32easy to think of conversations that
36:35seemed angry or hostile or there was
36:37conflict or disagreement because it's so
36:40obvious. Like you're yelling at each
36:41other, you're arguing.
36:42>> Yeah.
36:43>> But what is a quieter killer of
36:45conversation and probably more common
36:47than conflict is boredom and
36:49disengagement. We're not interested in
36:51what we're saying to each other. And as
36:54soon as either person becomes
36:56disinterested, you can't have that good
36:58connection. You can't make progress
37:00anymore. And levity, these fleeting
37:02moments of sparkle and fizz, they pull
37:04us back in. They they fix the boredom.
37:07>> Sparkle and fizz. [laughter]
37:10>> How do you create that? Because you have
37:12some really interesting research about
37:13how making fun of yourself
37:16really is a powerful thing to do. Can
37:18you can you share a bit of this research
37:19for us?
37:20>> Yes. Yes. So, this is something people
37:22think about all the time. Should I
37:24should I make fun of myself? Will that
37:26make things feel more fun and funny? Um,
37:29so you can do it in a way, you can
37:30deliver it in a way that's like
37:32self-deprecating humor. You're making
37:33fun of yourself. You can also do it in a
37:35way that's not funny at all, but you're
37:37sharing your whole self, right? You're
37:39not just talking about your successes,
37:41but also uh the failures and struggles
37:44that you encountered on your pathway to
37:46success. This is a particularly
37:48effective strategy for people who
37:50already have high status, who are
37:52powerful, who are respected, who are
37:54known as competent, for leaders. It's a
37:56way to say to everybody, "Hey, look, I'm
37:58like you, too. I'm a human being. I'm I
38:00don't do this thing right. Here's some
38:02negative feedback that I got on my way
38:04to success." Um, it's so so powerful. It
38:08is riskier for people who are low status
38:10to use self-deprecating humor or to rel
38:12or to reveal their failures. When you're
38:14low status, you have a narrower range of
38:18options available to you that will be
38:20seen. People might actually start to
38:22question your competence.
38:24>> Oh, and that's why being low status
38:26feels so limiting and so constraining.
38:28>> So, how do you as a Harvard Business
38:31School professor
38:33>> define low status? Cuz I I would imagine
38:36if we cracked open people's heads, a lot
38:38of people are so punishing to
38:42themselves.
38:43>> Totally. that they believe that they
38:46have a low status based on self-doubt.
38:48But what are you talking about?
38:50>> So status for scholars is defined as
38:54liking and respect and prestige in the
38:57eyes of other people.
38:58>> Okay.
38:59>> Okay. So it's liking and do people
39:01respect me? There's really good news
39:03here, Mel, which is
39:05>> every group has a sort of status
39:07hierarchy. Okay. People pretty easily
39:10know who's high status, who's low
39:12status, who's in the middle. But the
39:14good news is it changes much more
39:17frequently than you think. It changes
39:19not only from one conversation or one
39:22place to the next. It changes from one
39:24topic to the next. So imagine you're in
39:26a group, you're having a meeting,
39:28>> you're talking about something you don't
39:30know anything about. Mhm.
39:32>> You're low status on that topic and
39:33there might be some rockus experts in
39:36the room and that's intimidating and
39:37you're like, "How can I contribute to
39:38this? It's a terrible feeling. You feel
39:40invisible and marginalized.
39:42>> Yep."
39:43>> All of a sudden, the conversation shifts
39:44to talking about, "Oh, should we update
39:46our maternity leave policy?" And all of
39:48a sudden, if you're the only woman in
39:49the room, you're all of a sudden you're
39:52at the top of the heap. Okay? You have
39:54the most lived experience, the most
39:56knowledge to bring to this conversation.
39:59So even if you're feeling low status on
40:02many topics, if all of a sudden it
40:04switches to something else, you might
40:06all of a sudden become high status. And
40:08we shouldn't underestimate the value of
40:10that when we have value to bring. If
40:12you're sitting in a conversation with
40:14friends or something at work and you're
40:17feeling that low status moment like I
40:19got nothing to contribute, is there a
40:22Harvard Business School sentence I can
40:24say that is like preemptive, raises my
40:27status without revealing that I don't
40:28know what the hell I'm talking about?
40:30>> I think the magic trick is asking
40:32questions really. Okay.
40:34>> Okay. So, if you're on a topic and
40:35you're feeling like you don't know
40:36anything, it's always valuable to ask
40:38questions about even people who know
40:40everything about it. It's helpful for
40:41them to have a sounding board and
40:43someone who's asking questions. They
40:45don't know what other people don't know.
40:47So sometimes when you're at low status,
40:49you're in this privilege position to
40:50say, "Look, nobody here knows what
40:52you're talking about. Define this for
40:54us. What What do you mean by status?"
40:56Okay, let me just highlight that because
40:59the person listening, I really want you
41:01to understand this. Do you know the
41:04confidence it displays
41:07to be a person who really doesn't
41:10understand what people are talking
41:11about? And to say out loud, "Hold on a
41:14second. You're 15 steps ahead.
41:17>> You've lost some of us in this room. Can
41:20you please back up and explain this
41:24because I'm not tracking?"
41:26>> Yeah. And it's not always going to be
41:27appropriate, but sometimes it is. Well,
41:29and what that says is first of all, I
41:31value that I'm tracking along. And
41:33number two, you can trust me because I'm
41:36going to tell you when I don't know
41:37something. And number three, I am
41:40following with you, but I'm going to
41:42slow you down and make sure everybody
41:44comes along. I mean, that right there,
41:46>> yeah,
41:46>> that's how you raise your status because
41:50it demonstrates a huge level of
41:52confidence.
41:53>> Before we get on to K, I have one more
41:55thing to say to these low status
41:56friends.
41:57>> Yes,
41:57>> we are with you. We have all been low
41:58status. Our status changes constantly.
42:01Um, one thing before we move from away
42:03from levity, one of the most effective
42:05ways to raise your status is to make
42:08people laugh. It is it I think we have
42:11an instinct that we think of humor as
42:13this like extra bonus thing like, oh,
42:16there's that funny guy. He made a good
42:18joke. We're all laughing. That's great.
42:19Now, back to the real stuff. [sighs]
42:21When we look at what's really going on
42:23with social dynamics in our research, if
42:26you can make people laugh even one time
42:29in a conversation, they are so much more
42:31likely to vote for you as the leader of
42:33that group. Just one joke, if you just
42:35make people laugh, it's just a core
42:38determinant of status, earning status,
42:41and then keeping it once you've once
42:42you've earned it.
42:43>> I love that. So, what is the fourth
42:46element of your four-part framework for
42:49better communication? The fourth part is
42:51K for kindness. And it's really this
42:55virtue that we all learn as kids that we
42:58should all be kind. I don't know. I
43:00don't know about you, Mel. I I spent my
43:01whole life really think like what do
43:03kind people do daytoday, moment to
43:06moment. What are they thinking about?
43:07What are they saying? How are they
43:09behaving? And I think one of the great
43:11privileges of this new emerging science
43:13of conversation is we're figuring it
43:16out. what kind people who really care
43:18about others how they communicate with
43:20the people around them. So we attack
43:22this in a very concrete way.
43:24>> So what do they do?
43:25>> Yeah. The first part is using respectful
43:28language, right? So as soon as you cross
43:30over into that zone where people are
43:32feeling hurt or harmed or otherred or
43:34excluded or bullied,
43:35>> you have lost this kindness goal. Yep.
43:38>> You've moved beyond it. It's gone.
43:40>> And the second piece again is this uh
43:43responsive listening. So putting in the
43:45effort to hear other people, caring
43:47about what they're sharing with you and
43:49showing that you're listening to them
43:51with your words and with your
43:52non-verbals.
43:53>> So how can you use this framework with a
43:56colleague?
43:58>> Every time all the time I mean you can
44:00use it over email, over text and face to
44:03face. Every time you interact with a
44:05colleague, you should be thinking what
44:07topics are valuable to them? How can I
44:09bring value to them? What what are they
44:11going to find interesting and exciting?
44:13If you don't know ahead of time, you can
44:14just ask them, "What are you excited
44:16about lately? How can I be helpful? What
44:18can I do? Um, what's going on? What are
44:20you struggling with right now that I
44:21might be able to help with?" Right? It's
44:23just incredible.
44:24>> How do you use the kindness part with
44:26your partner?
44:28>> Oh my gosh. The thing that makes
44:30kindness so hard is that it is effortful
44:33and it's constant. We have to battle
44:35against all of these other things that
44:37are draining our resources, especially
44:39with someone you live with, right?
44:41you're you see them all the time.
44:43>> And so it's it's a big ask to say, well,
44:47be kind all the time to this person. Put
44:49in all of this effort all the time. But
44:52I think trying to get over our
44:54self-centered, our self-focus and really
44:57trying to understand what our partner
44:59cares about, figure out what they need,
45:02whether it's just a hug or it's just a
45:04cup of coffee, um figure out what they
45:07need and help them get it. So, if
45:09somebody is listening right now and
45:13they're in a relationship where the
45:15communication isn't working,
45:17>> yeah,
45:18>> you're frustrated, you misunderstand
45:20each other, everything becomes some
45:22stupid thing.
45:25What is your advice based on your
45:28research on the science of
45:29communication?
45:30>> Yeah, it sounds like that kind of
45:31relationship sounds like you're stuck in
45:33a bad equilibrium, a bad sort of
45:35>> What does that mean? So, you're stuck in
45:36the you've developed habits in a
45:38specific relationship that aren't
45:40working for you. Yep. Right. And you and
45:42then every time you see that person, you
45:43might fall back into that same habits
45:45where you're getting defensive. You're
45:47lashing out. You're making accusations
45:50rather than these ideals that we're
45:52trying to live up to of like, I want to
45:53be interested in you. I want to figure
45:54out your needs and help you. You've
45:57fallen into the opposite. Yes. Right.
45:59>> So, there's a couple of things. One is
46:01uh we talk a lot about the power of
46:03apologies. Um, and and this would be an
46:06example when you could say, "It seems
46:07like we've really fallen into some bad
46:09habits where we're really getting
46:11defensive or lashing out and arguing all
46:13the time. What would it take for us to
46:15sort of shift that? How can we get into
46:17a different pattern? How can we change
46:19our habits with each other?
46:21>> It's going to require that both people
46:23buy into it
46:24>> because conversation is co-constructed.
46:27It means that they have to buy in, you
46:29have to buy in, and you both have to
46:31try. And if you can't shift out of that
46:33equilibrium, that's often when you know
46:35relationships part ways.
46:36>> Of course, cuz why would you want to be
46:38in a relationship where
46:39>> it's not rewarding.
46:40>> It's not rewarding. You're both not
46:42working on it. I want to go into some of
46:43the most asked questions on a
46:45communication. I mean, these are the
46:46things that people write in about. They
46:49go crazy viral and they want to know.
46:51Okay, so small talk
46:56is so draining.
46:58Everybody hates it. What does your
47:02research have to say about small talk
47:05and why it matters?
47:06>> For all of the people who hate small
47:07talk, you're right. It sucks. It's It's
47:10shallow. It's meaningless. It feels like
47:12there's this alarm bell going off on
47:13your mind of like, why can't we get past
47:15this? Why can't we get to the real
47:16stuff? I want We all want the real
47:18stuff. How can I get there? But also,
47:21you cannot avoid small talk. It's how
47:24every conversation starts between
47:26strangers, between people who haven't
47:28seen each other in a while, even people
47:30who've seen each other earlier in the
47:32day. You usually start when you see him
47:34at night and say, "How was your day?"
47:35>> Right?
47:36>> It is a well-worn social ritual and it's
47:39important because it's the place where
47:41we search for better things.
47:43>> Okay.
47:43>> Okay. It's the It's the easy warmup.
47:45>> It's the warm-up. It's the It's where we
47:47are. It's the pregame, right? It's a
47:48it's the warm-up and we're searching for
47:51ways to get to more meaningful talk. We
47:54talk about in in my course and in my
47:55book, we talk about a topic pyramid.
47:58Okay, the topic pyramid has three
48:00layers.
48:01>> Okay, the bottom layer is small talk
48:03topics. These are topics you can talk
48:05about with anyone. It's the weather,
48:07it's the weekend, whatever you're
48:09eating, easy stuff that you could talk
48:11about with anybody.
48:12>> Yep.
48:13>> They're not evil. They're not bad. They
48:15are often unrewarding, but they're a
48:17place where you are should be searching
48:19to climb the pyramid to the second tier,
48:21which is more tailored talk. It's more,
48:24it can be include more disclosure about
48:26your own life. It can be more
48:27personalized. It might just be a topic
48:29you're excited about. Has nothing about,
48:31you know, sharing about your life.
48:32You're just some, it's something your
48:34partner's really jazzed about.
48:35>> So, this this second layer of the
48:37pyramid is where your topic preparation
48:39comes in. Correct.
48:40>> And asking questions come in.
48:42>> You could prep small talk topics, too.
48:44that could that are more likely to be
48:46launch pads to the second lay. So a
48:48question like Mel, what are you good at
48:50that you really hate doing?
48:55>> Picking up the dog poop.
48:56>> Yeah, exactly.
48:57>> Hate it. [laughter]
48:59>> But I bet you're great at it. I mean,
49:01how
49:01>> Yeah, cuz I don't want to step in it,
49:02but I don't like it.
49:04>> And then I would ask a question like,
49:05uh, how many dogs you have or like how
49:07often do you have to pick up its poop?
49:08Or like right now we're
49:10>> It's amazing how much dogs poop. Like
49:12it's unbelievable.
49:13>> Absolutely. Has it ever made you feel
49:15like you just don't want dogs anymore?
49:16Yes. So, we're very quickly going to get
49:18to a place where I start to figure out
49:21how you really feel about animals, how
49:23you really feel about caretaking, how
49:25you feel about cleaning up your kids
49:27dirty diapers. Like, we're going to get
49:29to a place that feels much more
49:30personal. And that opening question is
49:34that was a small I could have asked.
49:35>> What was the question again? I've
49:36already forgot it because I was
49:37interested in what we were talking
49:38about.
49:38>> Interesting. Yeah. So, it was um what
49:40are you good at that you don't like
49:41doing? What are you good at that you
49:42don't like?
49:43>> You could also ask um what are you bad
49:45at that you'd like to get better at?
49:48>> Uh Spanish.
49:49>> Great.
49:49>> I don't know it, so I'm really
49:51[laughter] bad at it.
49:53>> Buenos.
49:56That's So anyway, so there are there are
49:58open-ended questions that would that are
50:00small talk topics that should be thought
50:02of as sort of like launching pads that
50:04we're moving to the second tier that
50:05becomes more personalized. I'm learning
50:07so much about you and your life so
50:08quickly. What are you good at that you
50:10don't like doing?
50:11>> Oh, giving birth.
50:13>> Oh, [laughter] I guess you popped out
50:15three kids, so you are pretty good at
50:16that.
50:18>> I think what do I what am I good at that
50:19I don't like doing? Oh, man. Running.
50:23Probably. I love walking. I don't love
50:26running. Yeah, same.
50:27>> Yeah, I
50:28>> Why do you run if you don't like it?
50:29>> Exact hard on myself. I want to be in
50:32good shape. But I stopped. As I've been
50:34getting older, I'm realizing you don't
50:35need to do those things.
50:36>> Nope. Especially as your hormones
50:38change. Exactly. And walking is so
50:40lovely. I I love walking. And so now I'm
50:43gentler with myself and like it's not a
50:46failure to walk.
50:47>> Nope.
50:47>> It's a win.
50:48>> What is the top layer of the pyramid?
50:50>> Top layer of the pyramid is um deep
50:52talk. We were getting there. We were
50:54getting really close. Um the more
50:56follow-up questions you ask, the more
50:58likely you are to get to that top. You
51:00know it when you're there, Mel. It feels
51:02>> I almost pretended to be your therapist.
51:04I was about to go deep into them. Why
51:05you're so [laughter] hard on yourself?
51:07And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know if
51:08Professor Brooks wants me to go there.
51:10>> We could we could do it." [laughter] Um,
51:13but you know, when you're at that deep
51:14talk with a friend, with a therapist,
51:16with your parents, whatever. It's not
51:18every conversation is bound to go there.
51:20You don't need to have a deep
51:21conversation with, you know, your
51:22barista or even your work colleagues
51:24>> because people would file a restraining
51:26order against you for [laughter] like
51:28really making them uncomfortable.
51:29>> Sometimes it's not their business,
51:31right? There are some contacts where
51:32it's appropriate and called for and
51:33magical and some where it's not. But
51:35when you do find yourself there, you
51:37should appreciate it. It's really
51:39special. It's like we're all on these
51:40journeys looking for those magical
51:42moments of connection and sometimes they
51:44happen. Professor Brooks, what do you do
51:47if you're in a situation where someone
51:50is dominating the conversation and it's
51:53really hard to get a word in? Like how
51:56do you effectively communicate with
51:57somebody who's a bit of a bulldozer? Can
51:59I ask you a follow-up question before I
52:01answer, which is
52:02>> when you're thinking of people
52:03dominating a conversation,
52:06>> it's almost always in a group. Are you
52:08imagining a group?
52:09>> Yeah, I guess I am. Cuz I'm imagining
52:12being at like a cocktail party.
52:14>> Yeah.
52:15>> And people are kind of standing in a
52:17little bit of a circle.
52:18>> Yep. Maybe a work meeting.
52:20>> Or a work meeting.
52:21>> Yep.
52:22>> And you know, of course, my fear is that
52:24most people that I know think it's me.
52:26>> I was going to say, have you been guilty
52:27of this yourself? Oh, in the past, of
52:30course, when I've had too much to drink.
52:32Definitely. Um, I work hard at listening
52:37at work rather than talking.
52:39>> That's right. And it is hard work,
52:40especially for someone who has a lot to
52:41say, has a lot of ideas, who is high
52:43status or is in the habit of sharing uh
52:46what's on their mind. So, I ask you this
52:48question because when we think of
52:51dominating airtime, it's almost always
52:53in a group. M when you are in a
52:56one-on-one conversation, we have easier
52:59tools to interrupt someone or to sort of
53:02plow over them and or even a little bit
53:04signal that they're talking too much,
53:06right? It's easier in a group. It's
53:09maddening. You have way less control
53:11over stopping someone. And it's really
53:14hard for high status people to give
53:16other people that space. I too have to
53:18work very hard to not talk too much in a
53:22group setting. I got a lot to say and a
53:25lot of energy, right? And that takes
53:27effort and it's like a skill unto itself
53:29to give other people that space.
53:30>> So, let's say that you're going to a
53:32family gathering.
53:34>> Yeah.
53:34>> And there's a particular person in your
53:36family.
53:37>> Yeah.
53:38>> Who just holds court.
53:40>> Yeah.
53:40>> Nobody can get in a word edge-wise.
53:42>> We all know. We all know Uncle Paulie.
53:44Yeah. Yeah.
53:45>> So, based on your research, Professor
53:47Brooks, what do you do?
53:50One idea is going back to the asking
53:53maxim. When you're in a group, you have
53:56these opportunities. You can turn the
53:59attention to someone else very
54:02deliberately and say, "Sarah, I was I
54:06wanted to hear about what I wanted to
54:08hear about that basketball team you're
54:09coaching. What can you tell us about
54:10that?" you are able to literally turn
54:13the entire group's attention to someone
54:15else and to a new topic so that that
54:18person cannot cannot continue to
54:20dominate the conversation.
54:21>> And if you're listening and not watching
54:24this on YouTube, I want to make sure you
54:26know that what Professor Brooks did is
54:28she literally turned her body and held
54:31up her hand and pointed at another
54:33person.
54:34>> Yeah. both verbally and physically just
54:38directing the traffic in a different
54:40direction
54:41>> and that's what we're doing in groups.
54:42We are d we are all directing traffic.
54:44We are stewards of the conversation
54:47especially non-verbbally. Okay. So we
54:49have some research about eye gaze in
54:51particular. This is something high
54:52status people can do really really well.
54:55Human beings have a tendency to look
54:58with their eyes at the highest status
55:00members of the group. You expect them to
55:02speak more. they do speak more and you
55:05tend to look at them for their
55:06reactions. This makes the low status
55:08people in the group feel invisible
55:10because they literally are invisible.
55:12Nobody's looking at them and it makes
55:14them feel like even when they have
55:16something great to say, they shouldn't
55:18say it. They're not welcome to say it.
55:20No one's inviting them to speak with
55:21their gaze. So, we ran experiments where
55:24we had leaders of a group very
55:26purposefully make more equitable eye
55:28gaze with everyone in the group. And it
55:31meant that later in the conversation,
55:33those low status group members were more
55:35likely to speak without the leader
55:37saying a word, without them cold calling
55:39them and saying, "Hey Sarah, we haven't
55:41heard from you in a while. What's on
55:42your mind?" Which is mortifying, by the
55:44way, if you call on them in a moment
55:46when they don't have something to add.
55:48But I gaze is this much more gentle,
55:50more subtle way of saying, "Hey, I see
55:52you. I care about you. I want to hear
55:54from you."
55:55>> Professor Brooks, how do you handle
55:57being interrupted?
55:59>> [laughter]
56:00>> I love being interrupted. Um
56:02>> I mean like a person who doesn't. So
56:04most women as you know are interrupted
56:07at work and by their families more than
56:09men.
56:09>> Yeah.
56:10>> And so how do you handle somebody who
56:13interrupts you?
56:14>> So let me make the distinction that you
56:16even we just had a little moment of
56:17misunderstanding I want to call out
56:19which is there are two different types
56:21of interruptions. One is an on topic
56:24interruption. You're staying on the same
56:26topic. You're just like finishing each
56:28other's sentences. It's bubbling. It's
56:31fun. It's exciting. It's great. That's a
56:34great type of interruption. We should do
56:35more of that. And I love interacting
56:37with people who are so engaged in what
56:39I'm saying that they're they interrupt
56:41me before I can finish. That's great.
56:44Off-topic interruptions are the ones
56:46that give interruptions a bad rap. It's
56:48like somebody doineering cuts you off,
56:50is clearly not interested in what you're
56:52saying, and shifts the conversation to
56:54something else entirely. It's rude. It
56:57makes you feel devalued and disrespected
57:01and no one should be doing that. Um, if
57:04someone does that, I would try and make
57:06a joke about it uh in the moment. I if
57:08you're feeling like upset about it, you
57:11could be like, "Well, let me uh I was
57:12just going to finish my thing." You
57:14know, you could kind of make a joke
57:16about it because everybody else who's in
57:18the group has seen this dynamic now play
57:20out and you're all in on it. And are you
57:22going to call it out or are you going to
57:24let it slide and sort of be happy to sit
57:26in this low status position? I'm not
57:28happy to sit there and I really don't
57:30want other people to sit there either.
57:31>> What would your counsel be to the person
57:33listening? Because I think most people
57:35that it gets done to, you feel so
57:37disempowered you can't make a joke about
57:39it. M
57:40>> so is there something if you're going to
57:43a family function or you have meetings
57:46at work and you just know that this is a
57:48dynamic with a particular person that
57:51you can rehearse that not only gives you
57:55a response but actually raises your
57:59status or somehow makes you feel a
58:03little bit more powerful.
58:04>> Here's what I would do really. Um, I
58:06spent so many years of my career in a
58:07low status position. And I think one
58:10thing I found very comforting is knowing
58:12that you have good relationships with
58:14the other people in the room. And so
58:16what you could do is go to your work
58:18bestie who's also going to be there and
58:20say, you know, this guy always cuts me
58:23off. It's really upsetting. I don't feel
58:25comfortable making a joke out of it. I
58:27do not feel comfortable giving him that
58:29feedback, but it really is upsetting to
58:30me. So, I'm wondering if if the
58:32opportunity presents itself, if you
58:34could say something like, and it doesn't
58:36need to be offensive. It doesn't need to
58:38be aggressive. It could just be like,
58:40"Oh, I'd actually really love to hear
58:41what Allison was going to I would love
58:43to hear Allison finish what she was
58:44saying."
58:45>> Oo, that's
58:46>> And now you're really collaborating in
58:48the conversation. And it's and and
58:50friends want to do that for you, right?
58:51And it's sincere. She probably does want
58:53to hear what you were going to
58:53[laughter] say. And by the way, that's
58:55an example of tea in the four-part
58:57framework, which is you just thought of
58:58a topic and you've prepared for it and
59:01now you're ready for it.
59:03>> Um, Professor Brooks, what are some
59:05strategies you can use based on your
59:07research if somebody belittles you,
59:10>> you know, whether it's like your mom
59:11commenting on your weight or
59:14I'm the primary bread winner and there
59:16are these little digs that family
59:18members make at my husband Chris. Like
59:21what is the response to belittlement?
59:24>> You know what? It's it it's so often
59:26that the people we love the most and are
59:28closest to are the victims of these
59:30little moments of belittlement because
59:32they kind of leak out. Usually when
59:35someone
59:36>> is making a belittling comment, it's
59:38really not about whatever they're
59:40talking about. It's about something
59:41deeper that they're it's it's really
59:43it's usually about them, right? That
59:45they're feeling insecure about something
59:47and they're taking it out on you. Mhm.
59:50>> This is true of all moments of
59:52difficulty in conversation is for
59:54whatever reason we have the tendency to
59:56have these moments that shoot down to
59:58these hurtful parts of our identities.
1:00:01When I used to teach negotiation, it was
1:00:03so, you know, when you're negotiating
1:00:05for a house, it's so obviously fraught
1:00:07and hard. But what I find so much more
1:00:09interesting are these little moments and
1:00:11conversations that should be easy and
1:00:13fun. and all of a sudden someone makes a
1:00:15little belittling comment and you're
1:00:17like, "Whoa, I thought this was supposed
1:00:18to be fun and easy and sort of routine.
1:00:21What's going on here?" That can shoot
1:00:23down to our identities of this sort of
1:00:24hot magma at the core of who we are in
1:00:27hurtful ways. And in those moments, we
1:00:29tend to be very defensive.
1:00:31>> Yeah. Or quiet, silenced,
1:00:33>> attacked. So, there's a really exciting
1:00:36emerging science of receptiveness here
1:00:39that can help us. um scientists Hannah
1:00:42Collins, uh Mike Yman's, Julia Mson have
1:00:45studied what good conversationalists,
1:00:48kind people, how they manage these
1:00:50moments when all of a sudden things get
1:00:52heated for whatever reason.
1:00:53>> What do you do?
1:00:54>> Um and they looked at the language that
1:00:56people use uh to confront this. And
1:00:59there's a really concrete recipe of
1:01:02being receptive to an opposing viewpoint
1:01:04that can help so that the conversation
1:01:06doesn't escalate and get overheated in
1:01:08that moment. And it's quite a a skill
1:01:10set to develop. It makes me feel more
1:01:13confident to engage.
1:01:14>> What is it?
1:01:15>> So the first piece is acknowledgement.
1:01:17Saying I think I heard you say here what
1:01:19I'm hearing is right. So going back to
1:01:21this acknowledgement affirmation. It
1:01:23makes sense that you would feel that
1:01:25way. Like maybe sometimes I'm not doing
1:01:27enough. It makes sense that you feel
1:01:29that way, but you saying that also makes
1:01:30me feel a certain way. But affirming
1:01:33their feelings before you go on to
1:01:35disagree with them
1:01:36>> and say you're a piece of for
1:01:37saying that. No, you're not supposed to
1:01:38say that [laughter] part. [gasps]
1:01:40>> No, I mean I think you can even say that
1:01:42like it makes sense that you feel that
1:01:43way and also it's not a particularly
1:01:46kind you can see why I would be upset by
1:01:48it. It both can be true, right? It makes
1:01:50sense that you feel this way. It makes
1:01:52sense that you're stressed or tired and
1:01:53you said something that you probably
1:01:55wouldn't say if you were not stressed or
1:01:56tired. That all makes sense. You're I
1:01:58realize you're a human being and I love
1:02:00and respect you, but also what you just
1:02:03said was hurtful to me. if you can come
1:02:05with that mindset. So acknowledgement,
1:02:07affirmation, um positive framing. There
1:02:11are words that they call um oh gosh,
1:02:14it's like dogmatic or explaining words.
1:02:16So words like because and therefore are
1:02:19very hard to be on the receiving end of
1:02:22that express too much certainty. Like
1:02:24you're wrong because of this, therefore
1:02:27I'm not talking to you anymore. Those
1:02:29are escalation words. They're expressing
1:02:31too much certainty, too much sort of
1:02:34righteousness, and they're very hard to
1:02:36hear. On the other end, there's a
1:02:38strategy that I like to use that
1:02:40combines all of these receptiveness, all
1:02:42the receptiveness language, and that's
1:02:44dividing yourself into multiple parts in
1:02:46the moment.
1:02:47>> Let me give an example cuz I think this
1:02:48is something a lot of people struggle
1:02:50with.
1:02:50>> Yeah. Let's just say that
1:02:53it's coming from a place of concern,
1:02:56but it is, you know, some sort of
1:02:59comment like, "I just don't understand
1:03:01why you can't meet somebody."
1:03:03>> Mhm.
1:03:04>> Or,
1:03:05"Why do you stay in that job
1:03:08when they don't pay you what you
1:03:10deserve?"
1:03:10>> Yeah. And you know what's funny? These
1:03:13comments that are so hurtful, it's
1:03:15coming from a place of love. They want
1:03:17you to meet somebody because they want
1:03:18you to be happy and they think you're
1:03:19great.
1:03:20>> But it's still annoying that they're
1:03:21saying it. And so how can I use this
1:03:23framework if I'm saying to you like why
1:03:25haven't you met somebody? I just don't
1:03:27understand it.
1:03:28>> So you in that moment could say as your
1:03:31daughter I am so grateful that you love
1:03:33me so much that you want me to meet
1:03:35somebody and you think I'm so great that
1:03:37I deserve to be with somebody. at the
1:03:39same time putting on my whatever
1:03:42therapist hat, friend hat, feedback
1:03:44giver hat, um you could see why maybe
1:03:47that like saying this to me isn't
1:03:48actually that helpful to me in this
1:03:50moment. So saying like affirming them
1:03:53before then going on and saying also I
1:03:56don't find that very motivating. Like I
1:03:58don't find this very helpful to me. I
1:04:00find this dividing yourself into
1:04:02multiple parts so helpful because it's
1:04:04true. I always feel that way. I always
1:04:07want to support my friends and loved
1:04:08ones. I always understand where they're
1:04:10coming from and also what they're saying
1:04:14is often not nice. So, being able to
1:04:18express both of those sentiments within
1:04:20the same breath can be really, really
1:04:23empowering. And if you're going to be
1:04:25going into a situation where somebody
1:04:27does this a lot, you can kind of
1:04:29prepare.
1:04:29>> Yes, you can. and know that if they say
1:04:32this thing, whether it's about your job
1:04:34or about your health or about your
1:04:36relationship status, that you can
1:04:38acknowledge and then go and not that
1:04:41helpful.
1:04:41>> Yeah.
1:04:42>> Not that helpful.
1:04:43>> Now, if it's somebody who you've tried
1:04:45this approach, you've tried to give them
1:04:46this feedback, they keep doing it or
1:04:48they keep, you know, raising topics you
1:04:50don't want to argue over, it is actually
1:04:52okay to not engage with them about it.
1:04:54You know, if your parents keep bringing
1:04:56up their different political views, you
1:04:58don't have to engage with them about it.
1:04:59That's fine. You don't have to.
1:05:00>> But how about you using the science of
1:05:01of communication?
1:05:03>> Yeah.
1:05:03>> Do that without just being like, I agree
1:05:06to disagree. I guess we see things
1:05:08differently. No, seriously, like there's
1:05:10so much stonewalling. Yeah.
1:05:12>> Of each other.
1:05:13>> It helps to have, again, back to this
1:05:15tea, if you have other good topics, it
1:05:17helps a lot to just move quickly to a
1:05:19different topic that is actually
1:05:21mutually rewarding for you instead of
1:05:24uh, you know, proliferating on this. I
1:05:26don't want to talk about this or
1:05:27arguing, arguing. No, no, just shift
1:05:29like, hey, have you what TV show are you
1:05:30watching these? I've been watching this
1:05:31really cool TV show. Can I tell you
1:05:33about it?
1:05:33>> So, direct the traffic in a different
1:05:35direction.
1:05:35>> Exactly.
1:05:36>> What does the science of conversation
1:05:38say about someone who's very
1:05:40argumentative or raise their tone of
1:05:42voice? What should you do if somebody
1:05:45starts yelling at you or they're or
1:05:46they're like I used to be. You get
1:05:48aggravated. You're like, ah. And the
1:05:49volume goes up.
1:05:50>> Yeah. So, we talk about this wheel of
1:05:53feelings. I've done so much research on
1:05:54these high arousal emot negative
1:05:56emotions, whether it's anxiety or anger
1:05:59or just being upset. Um, there are lots
1:06:03of emotion regulation strategies that
1:06:04you can use during a conversation as
1:06:06well. Um, you can try and just shift,
1:06:10reframe the situation, change the
1:06:12situation.
1:06:12>> Is it [clears throat] okay to ever just
1:06:14say, "I'm happy to talk to you, but not
1:06:17when you use this tone of voice."
1:06:18>> Yeah. A therapist will often talk about
1:06:20getting into the sort of like green zone
1:06:22and it can take like 20 minutes to for
1:06:24your body to calm down. Once someone is
1:06:26upset, it's almost like too late. You
1:06:28It's very hard to engage once once
1:06:30someone is angry or overheated.
1:06:32>> Yeah.
1:06:33>> Instead of saying like, "Let's just take
1:06:34a time out. Let's calm down a little
1:06:36bit. Let's circle back to this in a
1:06:37little bit when we're both okay. Let's
1:06:39take a break." Um and that's exactly
1:06:42right. You It's easy to do in a
1:06:43conversation. You can change it. Let's
1:06:45go for a walk. Let's go to a different
1:06:47room. I'm going to go get a drink and
1:06:49then I'm going to come back and we
1:06:50>> A very stiff one.
1:06:51>> A very stiff drink. [laughter]
1:06:52>> Just kidding. I'll make it worse.
1:06:53>> Come back and let's pick this up. Um or
1:06:56even see if you want to keep talking
1:06:58about it by then.
1:06:59>> How can you make it sure that you always
1:07:02have something interesting to talk
1:07:03about?
1:07:04>> Oh, so two answers to this. First, as
1:07:08always, topic prep is your friend,
1:07:11right? So, thinking ahead about things
1:07:12that the other person will find
1:07:14interesting or exciting to talk about.
1:07:16But the second part of my answer is that
1:07:18it's almost the wrong question. That's
1:07:19the it's the wrong mindset. Huh? The key
1:07:22to being a good conversationalist is not
1:07:24about being interesting. It's about
1:07:26being interested in the other person. So
1:07:28if you go in with this mindset of like
1:07:30how do I be, you know, Mr. or Mrs. cool?
1:07:33How do I be charismatic? How do I bring
1:07:34all the funny stories? Even the mindset
1:07:36of how do I be funny is not correct. The
1:07:39the goal is how do I be optimally
1:07:42interested in the other person? How do
1:07:44we together find the fun? Not not how do
1:07:47I be funny?
1:07:48>> And that feels a lot less full of
1:07:50pressure because if I look at you as the
1:07:52source of everything interesting to talk
1:07:54about, then all I have to do is ask
1:07:56questions and be interested.
1:07:57>> And every person on the earth is the
1:07:58ultimate source of being. Everyone has
1:08:00so many lived experiences that you can
1:08:02learn from everyone. And they are just
1:08:04like an endless font of things to be
1:08:07discovered through question asking.
1:08:09>> How can you exit a conversation
1:08:12gracefully?
1:08:13There's really nice research on
1:08:15conversational endings that has come to
1:08:16light in the last 5 years. When you
1:08:19think of conversation as this almost
1:08:20impossible to solve coordination
1:08:22problem, the final coordination decision
1:08:25is when to leave. It's why it always
1:08:27feels so awkward and weird because I
1:08:29can't possibly know when you want to be
1:08:31done. You can't know when I'm need to be
1:08:33done or want to be done. So, we just
1:08:35need to get comfortable with the fact
1:08:37that like you're never going to get it
1:08:38right. Nobody knows when to end a
1:08:40conversation. Most people are always
1:08:42going to be dissatisfied. They might
1:08:43have wanted it to be longer. They might
1:08:45have wanted it to be shorter. So,
1:08:47embracing and accepting that
1:08:49awkwardness, that difficulty, just
1:08:50saying, "Nobody knows." We're just going
1:08:52to say, "This was great. I loved it. I
1:08:54can't wait for the next one. Bye. That's
1:08:57it. That's it." End.
1:08:58>> This was great. I can't wait for the
1:09:00next one. I love it. So, if you could
1:09:03leave the person who's listening to us
1:09:07right now,
1:09:08>> Yeah. with one takeaway or one lesson or
1:09:11one thing to do that leverages the
1:09:16science of conversation
1:09:18and it will make their life a little
1:09:20better. What would that one thing be?
1:09:22>> Oh, it's so hard to pick just one. I
1:09:25think it would be thinking ahead a
1:09:27little bit more,
1:09:29>> prepping topics, giving even a little
1:09:32bit of forethought to the people you're
1:09:34going to see in a day. Think a little
1:09:36bit about what they're going to find
1:09:37interesting and productive to talk
1:09:39about. You could write it down in your
1:09:41Google calendar notes. You could write
1:09:42on a little piece of paper. Just think
1:09:44it in your head. You're more likely to
1:09:46have a better conversation once you're
1:09:47together with them.
1:09:49>> And what are your parting words?
1:09:51>> My parting words are about grace. So, I
1:09:57think because we learn to talk to each
1:09:59other when we're toddlers and we spend
1:10:00our whole lives talking to each other
1:10:02every day with a huge array of partners,
1:10:05by the time we get to be adults, we feel
1:10:06like we should be perfect at it or we
1:10:08should be great at it and it's second
1:10:09nature and we should be experts. But
1:10:12when you look under the hood of
1:10:13conversation, you realize actually
1:10:16conversations are kind of a train wreck.
1:10:18We're interrupting each other all the
1:10:19time. We have halffinish ideas and we're
1:10:22not making sense a lot of the time. And
1:10:24so I think giving yourself a little bit
1:10:26more grace that you're not perfect.
1:10:29You're never going to be perfect. Even
1:10:30the best communicators aren't perfect.
1:10:32And giving other people more grace.
1:10:34They're going to say they're going to
1:10:35say things that make you mad. They're
1:10:36going to say things that hurt your
1:10:37feelings. And it's okay. This is how
1:10:39this works. If it's born of love, count
1:10:42yourself lucky.
1:10:44>> Professor Allison Woodbrooks, this has
1:10:46been great.
1:10:47>> Thank you so much for looking forward
1:10:49[laughter] to seeing you again.
1:10:55>> [laughter]
1:10:57>> Bye. Bye.
1:11:00And I would uh be remiss if I also
1:11:04didn't say thank you to you. This has
1:11:07been great. And I'm really proud of you
1:11:10for taking the time to listen to
1:11:11something that will absolutely improve
1:11:14your life. And everything that Professor
1:11:17Brooks poured into us today, I hope you
1:11:20try it. I hope you plan your topics
1:11:22because being a better communicator will
1:11:25improve your life. And in case no one
1:11:27else tells you, I wanted to be sure to
1:11:29communicate and tell you that I love you
1:11:30and I believe in you and I believe in
1:11:32your ability to create a better life. So
1:11:35take everything you just learned and go
1:11:37use it to make your life better. And
1:11:39I'll be waiting for you in the very next
1:11:41episode as soon as you hit play. I'll
1:11:43see you there. Thank you for being here
1:11:46with me on YouTube and thank you for
1:11:47watching all the way to the end. Wasn't
1:11:49it so cool to get all of these
1:11:52strategies and insight from a professor
1:11:54at Harvard Business School? I love this
1:11:57kind of stuff and I know you love it
1:11:58too. So, thank you for watching. Thank
1:12:00you for being here till the end. Thank
1:12:02you for sharing this with people in your
1:12:04life who you know deserve this
1:12:06information too. And one more thing, it
1:12:08is a goal of mine that 50% of the people
1:12:11that watch this channel are subscribers
1:12:13and it's free. So, I know you're the
1:12:16kind of person that loves supporting
1:12:17people that support you. I know you love
1:12:19getting all these incredible videos with
1:12:21worldrenowned experts. And so, one thing
1:12:23you could do for me, just hit subscribe.
1:12:25It tells me that you really love what
1:12:26we're doing here, and it helps support
1:12:28my team in bringing you new videos every
1:12:30single day as a free resource for you
1:12:32and the people that you care about. All
1:12:34righty. I know what you're thinking.
1:12:35Mel, I love this. What's the next video
1:12:38I should watch? Great question. I think
1:12:40you should check out this one. I think
1:12:41you're going to love it. And I'm going
1:12:42to be waiting for you in it the second
1:12:45you hit play. I'll see you there.

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