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How to Build Immense Inner Strength | David Goggins — Transcript

by Andrew Huberman · 27,385 words · 3,905 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast
0:02where we discuss science and science-based tools
0:04for everyday life.
0:05[MUSIC PLAYING]
0:09I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor
0:11of neurobiology and ophthalmology
0:13at Stanford School of Medicine.
0:15My guest today is David Goggins.
0:17David Goggins is a retired Navy SEAL who
0:20served in Iraq and Afghanistan.
0:22He's also a highly accomplished ultramarathon runner.
0:25For those of you that don't know,
0:27ultramarathons are distances longer
0:29than 26 miles and, in David's case, often longer
0:32than 200 miles.
0:34For his achievements in athletics,
0:35he has been inducted into the International Sports
0:38Hall of Fame.
0:39He also held a Guinness World Record for the most pull-ups
0:42completed in 24 hours.
0:44I should mention that not only was David a decorated Navy
0:46SEAL, but he also graduated from Army Ranger School.
0:50David is also a highly successful writer,
0:53having authored two books, the first entitled "Can't Hurt Me"
0:56and the second entitled "Never Finished," both of which
0:58are best sellers.
1:00David's books cover many topics, including
1:02his autobiographical description of what can only
1:05be described as an incredibly challenging child
1:09and young adulthood.
1:10His home was abusive.
1:12His school environment was abusive.
1:13He essentially had no positive resources directed his way and.
1:17In his 20s, he found himself to be obese, that is,
1:21more than 300 pounds working a job
1:23he despised for minimal pay.
1:25And it was at that point that David began an inner dialogue
1:30that forced him to explore the demons born out
1:32of his childhood but also the position that he found himself
1:35in as a young man and then began the journey
1:39to navigate that dialogue and transform himself into the Navy
1:42SEAL, the ultramarathon runner, the bestselling author,
1:45and the extraordinarily positive and influential man
1:48that he is today.
1:49As some of you may know, David has
1:51done various public lectures.
1:53He's a familiar face online because there are so
1:56many clips of him on YouTube.
1:58And he has done podcasts before.
2:00However, I'm certain that you'll find today's discussion
2:03to be very different than previous podcasts
2:06that David has been featured on.
2:08The reason is that-- of course, we
2:10get into his accomplishments.
2:11We talk about the mindset that allowed
2:13him to achieve those things.
2:15But, today, David really lets us under the hood.
2:17He lets us into the form of inner dialogue
2:21that he has to embrace, indeed that he
2:23has to grapple with on a daily basis, sometimes multiple times
2:26throughout the day and night in order
2:29to impose the sort of self-discipline
2:31that he is so well known for.
2:33We also get into some of the scientific mechanisms
2:35underlying willpower.
2:36And we talk about David's current endeavors
2:39that include, for instance, his own exploration of science
2:43and medicine for which he has become an intense scholar
2:46and practitioner.
2:47I should mention that multiple times throughout today's
2:50discussion you will hear curse words.
2:53Now David and I both acknowledge that cursing
2:55isn't for everybody and that cursing
2:58itself is different than cursing at somebody.
3:01Nonetheless, we do realize that many people, parents
3:05perhaps especially, might not want to hear cursing.
3:09If you don't want to hear cursing,
3:11well, then this podcast episode is probably not for you.
3:14However, if you are comfortable with cursing
3:16or if you can tolerate it, I assure you
3:19today's discussion is highly worthwhile.
3:22Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize
3:24that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research
3:26roles at Stanford.
3:28It is, however, part of my desire and effort
3:30to bring zero cost to consumer information
3:32about science and science-related tools
3:34to the general public.
3:35In keeping with that theme, I'd like
3:37to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.
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7:54And now for my discussion with David Goggins.
7:57David Goggins, welcome.
7:59DAVID GOGGINS: My man.
8:00Good to see you again, man.
8:01ANDREW HUBERMAN: Great to see you.
8:03It was late 2016, early 2017, I believe,
8:05when you were in my lab at Stanford.
8:06DAVID GOGGINS: Yes sir.
8:07ANDREW HUBERMAN: We did a little work later that day
8:10down in San Jose.
8:11And, gosh, see you everywhere, but it's not enough.
8:15So great to have you here.
8:16DAVID GOGGINS: Thanks for having me on, brother.
8:17ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
8:19You embody discipline and doing hard things.
8:23I think we should just start right off with--
8:24DAVID GOGGINS: Yeah.
8:25Let's just go there.
8:26ANDREW HUBERMAN: --the bold truth.
8:27But right before we went hot mics,
8:31we were talking about learning.
8:33Right now, you're spending some time learning and doing things
8:37that I think most people probably don't typically
8:39associate David Goggins with.
8:40DAVID GOGGINS: Right.
8:41ANDREW HUBERMAN: Why don't you tell us about that?
8:42DAVID GOGGINS: Well, most people just
8:44look at me as the guy that runs and yells as he's running.
8:48While I do that to motivate people,
8:51but people don't understand that my day is broken up
8:54into segments.
8:56I work out.
8:57I eat.
8:58I sleep, but I spend most of my time studying.
9:01So like I'm in the medical world.
9:02I'm a paramedic in Canada.
9:05But I spend a lot of my time trying
9:08to nuke every single thing about it because I'm not
9:11trying to just be a paramedic, learn about veins,
9:15and arteries, and how the heart pumps, and stuff like that.
9:17I'm trying to learn to the point where
9:19I can save someone's life.
9:21And even though paramedics are doing that all over the world,
9:24I'm trying to be that paramedic that can really
9:26dissect exactly what's going on and figure out what medication
9:29goes where, just trying to learn the algorithm of what's
9:34going on, man.
9:35So I spent a lot of time with it.
9:36ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love the word algorithm
9:38because when I teach biology or try and learn
9:40anything that's related to biology and especially
9:43the human body, I need to know the nouns.
9:46But it's the verbs that matter.
9:47And that's really what you're talking about.
9:49Just saying that sits there, that brain part there,
9:53doesn't tell you how it all works together.
9:55So what does your process for studying look like?
9:58If we dropped a camera in the room,
10:02brought a microphone into your inner dialogue--
10:06gosh, wouldn't we all love that.
10:08But if we dropped a microphone into your inner dialogue,
10:10are you waking up looking at the books and going,
10:12yeah, fresh day, let's learn or is some of the same resistance
10:16that you've talked about coming up around physical work,
10:20is that coming up from time to time?
10:22DAVID GOGGINS: You know what, I was nervous at first.
10:25I'm going to keep it real.
10:26I'm going to keep it real.
10:28So I'm not a real smart guy.
10:31And what I mean by that is I was born with ADD, ADHD.
10:35Like my brain cannot retain information.
10:38I'm not some genetic freak when it comes to running,
10:41when it comes to lifting weights.
10:42I am absolutely the bottom of the barrel.
10:44And people will never believe me.
10:47And they can just whatever.
10:49Believe what you want to believe.
10:51So when you ask me this question about what does studying look
10:55like for me, I have to go over the same page over, and over,
11:01and over, and over again, while Jennifer can look at that page
11:04while she's quizzing me, she'll learn it right then
11:08as she's-- she didn't know anything about it.
11:10She will quiz herself or quiz me and learn it
11:14as she's quizzing me.
11:15It's the most frustrating thing in the world
11:17how my brain works.
11:19So what I do is I literally sit there with a pen and paper.
11:23And I have my books.
11:24And I go through and have to write everything
11:27down every single day.
11:31I will study the same page until it's
11:34photographic memory from writing the same thing down.
11:38And then from there, I'll go back through and relearn it
11:40again.
11:41So I'll learn the bulk of it.
11:44But then I'll go through and learn the small things
11:49within that.
11:50So if it's a medication, I'll learn what the medication does.
11:54First, I'll learn how to even say
11:56the medication because these medications aren't
12:00like albuterol.
12:01No, it's very big words.
12:03So I'll go through, learn how to say the name.
12:05Then I'll go through learn what the dose is.
12:08Then I'll go through-- and this is like every single day.
12:11So it's not like, oh, I got it.
12:13Let's just go through-- no, nothing is I got it.
12:15Every single thing-- so I can't wait
12:19to get in this conversation because everything
12:21I do in life, it sucks.
12:24Everything I do in life, it sucks.
12:26That's why when I was 300 pounds and 24 years old,
12:30it wasn't like I had some big epiphany of let's just
12:34go be a Navy SEAL, and let's lose some weight.
12:36No, I knew my entire life was going
12:40to be a struggle, which is why I just ignored it.
12:43And I said, I'm not even trying to jump off any of this shit
12:48and learn how to read, how to write, how to memorize,
12:51how to become something I am not.
12:54But through that process, something happened to me.
12:57And I realized-- this is why I feel sorry for no one.
13:01In this podcast, they're going to really not like me
13:05because people are going to think
13:07that I am maybe lying or maybe fibbing or exaggerating.
13:14No, I am literally--
13:16I was the lowest form on Earth, no talent, no ability to learn.
13:22And I literally know what it is to be rock bottom
13:25and to build that up.
13:26So that question about learning is the pain in my ass.
13:29And I don't have to do it.
13:31Just think about it.
13:32I'm 49 years old, and I'm a multi-millionaire.
13:35I don't have to do anything.
13:37So all I thought about when I was growing up
13:39is, man, I can't wait to one day get to the point
13:44where I no longer have to do this stuff.
13:47But what happened as I got older,
13:49it became a way of living.
13:51So how I do every day is how I do every day.
13:54It's a discipline.
13:55It's a regimen.
13:57It was a choice I made.
13:59And the choice I made was what are you willing to sacrifice,
14:04and what are you willing to give up to find every bit of who
14:08you are as a human being?
14:09And I was willing to give up everything to do that.
14:11So studying is no joke.
14:13ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love that you're studying.
14:15I recall a few years ago, I heard some interview or podcast
14:20with you.
14:20And you just threw out like I don't know what I'll do next.
14:23Maybe I'll be a scientist.
14:24And I went yeah.
14:26Because I knew-- because I know you a bit.
14:29And I see your work out there, but we
14:30had met before, that if you decided
14:34that you were going to do it--
14:35and learning medicine, which is what you're doing,
14:38learning human physiology is so detailed.
14:41DAVID GOGGINS: Very.
14:42ANDREW HUBERMAN: And people out there
14:43have to understand when you look at a textbook
14:45and you see the veins and the capillaries different colors,
14:49when the body is open, they're not different colors.
14:51DAVID GOGGINS: Right, right, right.
14:53ANDREW HUBERMAN: So I mean, some things
14:54have different color contrasts, but it's not
14:56like it's all labeled when you pop it open.
14:58DAVID GOGGINS: Exactly.
14:59ANDREW HUBERMAN: And so the process of writing things down
15:01by hand is important for you.
15:03So you go back and read those notes.
15:04Do you think about that stuff on your runs
15:06too or are you segmenting your day
15:08like when you're done studying, are you heading out for a run
15:11and thinking about other things?
15:12Or are you still rehearsing the material in your head?
15:16DAVID GOGGINS: So when I write it down, I write it down,
15:19and I'm able to--
15:21I'm actually looking down at this table
15:22right now because I'm back to writing.
15:24So I'm actually there right now as I'm speaking to you.
15:27I write it down in a way that I'm memorizing page 69.
15:32So I'm writing it down.
15:34So then writing it down and that page sync together in my brain.
15:38So I'm looking at the book in my brain right now.
15:42That's just how it works for me.
15:44And I have to do it over and over again.
15:46So that page is stuck in my mind.
15:48So I'm literally flipping through pages
15:50as I'm taking these tests.
15:52And I'm taking these national tests to become a paramedic
15:55or become an advanced EMT or whatever.
15:57I'm literally as I'm taking that test I'm going through.
16:01And I'm like-- now I'm flipping pages in my head
16:05where that page was.
16:06And how I do that is just from how I write it
16:09and how it's on the page.
16:11When I run, I can't recall any of it.
16:16I cannot bring any of that because I'm running.
16:20How my mind is wired now is that everything I do is what I do.
16:25Because the focus it takes for me to-- right now, I'm running.
16:29I'm not like a great runner.
16:31I'm not like injury free.
16:33So like my first 20 minutes of the run I'm limping.
16:37I'm literally limping because I've
16:39had several knee surgeries.
16:41And my body was twisted.
16:43And so now it's untwisting.
16:45So people look at me, oh, looks, like he's limping when he runs.
16:49I am limping when I run.
16:50My body is jacked up so I'm focusing
16:52on how to get the best out of a broken body.
16:56So everything I do is a total focus
16:59on what I'm doing at that point in my life.
17:01ANDREW HUBERMAN: So it seems like you've really
17:03trained away or somehow gotten away from the ADD
17:07that you mentioned because what you described
17:09is like a deep trench.
17:10It's like a V shaped trench.
17:11I'm imagining like there's a ball bearing,
17:13and it's like, phewp, and it can only go forward in that trench
17:16or back.
17:17And it goes forward.
17:18It's not like sliding around at the concave at the bottom,
17:21zip-zip-zip, like a tension.
17:23So it's like you trained that up.
17:25Is there a similar feeling when you're
17:27in the full focus of running versus full focus of studying?
17:31Does it kind of feel like, oh yeah,
17:33that's the same groove but different thing or is it
17:36just completely different world?
17:38DAVID GOGGINS: It's a completely different world.
17:41Both of them for me is suffering,
17:43but it's suffering a whole different way.
17:45Like when I was going through school, I never forget--
17:48I think I was in third grade.
17:51And back then, ADD, ADHD, wasn't like here's this medicine
17:57or here's this thing.
17:58They want to put you in a special school.
18:00So for me, I was so far behind in learning
18:04that their big thing was let's just put him
18:06in a special school because he'll never learn.
18:09And through that process of like I
18:12don't want to be in a special school,
18:14I don't want to be treated any differently, it really--
18:18like I never took medication.
18:20I've never taken medication for this.
18:22That's why right now you see me looking right in your eyes.
18:24What the hell is Huberman saying right now.
18:28And that's why I don't feel bad for people who have ADHD,
18:32who have learning disabilities.
18:34And some are impossible because you just can't.
18:38But a lot of them you can.
18:41But people don't want to go through the process of focus,
18:45of teaching yourself how to truly focus.
18:47This is where my message gets lost.
18:49It gets lost because I may say MF or F because that's
18:54the passion that comes out of me.
18:57It takes everything for me to learn a sentence.
19:02So when I speak about David Goggins,
19:04I can't speak about David Goggins in a way that's
19:07just calm and cool.
19:09Because when I wake up, I know the journey
19:11that it takes for me to find my greatness.
19:13And it's hard.
19:15Nothing is easy.
19:17Nothing just like, oh, I wake up, and I just do this
19:19or I do that or it just-- no, I watch people every day
19:23go through life, and it's so easy.
19:25For me to be where I'm at today, it takes every bit of me.
19:30So when I speak about it, and as I get going here,
19:33you'll start seeing me-- the tempo will rise.
19:35The passion will come out because I'm back there.
19:38I'm doing what I do every day to become a human being.
19:41And so nothing is easy.
19:44Like running is running.
19:45It sucks.
19:46But you have a choice to make.
19:48Do you want to sit down and go back to that guy you once were?
19:52No.
19:53So this is what it takes.
19:55It takes that misunderstanding of people.
19:58And they'll never get it because they were never David Goggins.
20:01So that is what it takes for me to do what I do.
20:03It may take you something differently.
20:05So for me, everything has to be in the study.
20:07Everything has to be into this.
20:08Everything has to be in-- everywhere
20:10I am it has to be there, me, focused where I am.
20:13That's why you're my second podcast
20:15I've done since Rogan, since the book came out.
20:17I don't have time for that shit because if I want to be great,
20:21I'm not trying to maximize money or maximize people knowing me.
20:25I do these things because maybe someone out there will
20:29understand me and get it and say, I can grow from this guy,
20:33and others just won't.
20:35ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sounds like friction is something
20:37you're very familiar with.
20:39It's a word just I feel like is like cast above us
20:41right now in bold face, highlighted, underlined
20:44letters.
20:44DAVID GOGGINS: Friction is growth.
20:45ANDREW HUBERMAN: Friction, like you're up in the morning.
20:48And I imagine David Goggins going to the coffee maker,
20:51stretching out, good morning, sunshine.
20:53And you're telling me from eyelids open there's friction.
20:57DAVID GOGGINS: Yes, and that is the thing that people
20:59don't-- they don't fucking get.
21:02The biggest misunderstanding about David Goggins
21:04of all time--
21:05it's like whether you believe in God or not--
21:07I do-- he put this lab rat, which is me, on this planet
21:14and said let me fucking see what a beat up,
21:18abused kid who can barely learn, barely learn,
21:23who has a twisted body, messed up genetics, sickle cell, this
21:28and that, let me give him everything
21:31that pretty much disqualifies you from the military.
21:33But back then, it wasn't as-- and let's put him in this
21:38and see what comes out of it.
21:39So to do that, friction--
21:42you don't wake up in the morning time
21:43and go to the coffee maker.
21:45Matter of fact, sometimes you don't even sleep.
21:47What it requires is when I'm at--
21:502 o'clock-- it's 2 o'clock in the morning.
21:52And my brain is thinking about a fucking drug.
21:55And I got to get up and look in my book
21:57to see what that drug is, how I remember it.
22:00And this is every day of my fucking life.
22:04That's why when I train a fighter or I train someone,
22:06I'm like, you have no fucking idea how great you really
22:09are because you are using such minimal,
22:14minimal of what you have.
22:16And if people can learn to focus, this is what's possible.
22:21While it may not be pretty-- like
22:23people want to do a documentary on me.
22:24I go no.
22:26I don't want to do a documentary on me
22:28because I will have normal everyday people picking me
22:32apart.
22:33Oh, his life is miserable.
22:35Who wants to live like that?
22:38It's crazy how he-- it's almost like he's sick.
22:40He's psychotic.
22:44The most frustrating thing in the world for me
22:46is when normal people judge a man like myself
22:50on what it really takes to extract greatness from nothing.
22:57It takes every bit of who you are if you choose that route.
23:02If you don't, Merry Christmas, do what you got to do.
23:06But, yeah, all these things for me--
23:09like I told you, man, I'm going to keep it real.
23:12I'm not coming here to talk about perform without purpose
23:18because I go through--
23:19when I write these books, I go through,
23:22I try to dumb down David Goggins.
23:25How can I give normal people-- and I'm normal.
23:28But I found something that most don't want to find.
23:31How can I speak to people and give them
23:33something from this crazy psychotic brain that I've
23:36developed?
23:37How can I give them that?
23:38So I sit down with Jennifer for years
23:41and write down perform without purpose,
23:44callus your mind, armor your mind, the cookie jar,
23:48the accountability mirror, shit that people can fucking use
23:52in their lives.
23:53No, no, I'm glad it helps you.
23:57But the barbaric life that I live that you have to live,
24:02the almost obsession that you must have to be great,
24:06you can't put that shit in a fucking book, bro.
24:08You can't put in a book.
24:10You can't.
24:11You can't write about it.
24:12ANDREW HUBERMAN: It has to be experienced.
24:13DAVID GOGGINS: It has to be experienced.
24:15And you can't even--
24:16after you experience it, to write it in the book,
24:21it would seem like he needs to be locked up.
24:24ANDREW HUBERMAN: Too gory.
24:25DAVID GOGGINS: It's too gory.
24:26Doesn't make sense for a guy that everything,
24:28every second of the day he is trying
24:31to extract more from something.
24:34He's constantly thinking.
24:36He's constantly, constantly disciplined,
24:38never going off the path.
24:40Whatever is injured on him, he figures away.
24:43It's a conquerors mindset.
24:46And very few people, if any, can really understand what that is.
24:52Like I'm almost 50.
24:55And I've been this way for almost 30 years.
24:58Like what do you do for fun?
25:02These questions, I don't get them.
25:04I don't understand them.
25:05I don't-- so yeah.
25:06ANDREW HUBERMAN: I get asked that sometimes,
25:08what do you do for fun.
25:08I start listing off all this stuff like podcasting, reading,
25:11working out.
25:13So some of that resonates.
25:15But I think what's so truly unusual about what
25:19you're describing, your process is that from go it's hard.
25:25And I have to ask was being 300 pounds, having essentially--
25:29I'm using the words you've described.
25:31DAVID GOGGINS: No, do it.
25:32ANDREW HUBERMAN: You've said it before.
25:33You had a tendency at one point in your life early
25:35on tell lies, try and get people's approval.
25:38DAVID GOGGINS: Lied my ass off.
25:40ANDREW HUBERMAN: Crazy haircuts, attention seeking,
25:43and yet all of that triggered something
25:47that now is extraordinary.
25:52Do you think those hardships were
25:56necessary to flip the switch?
25:58DAVID GOGGINS: I don't know if they were necessary,
26:00but it was something that made me feel--
26:04I didn't feel good.
26:06It was easy.
26:08The brain that I was given as a child,
26:12it was easy to go home and think about,
26:14how do I want to be a freak today?
26:17How do I want to show up to school today and be a freak?
26:19It didn't require me going home and opening a book up saying,
26:23it's going to take me all year to learn this fucking page.
26:26So instead of learning that page,
26:29I learned how to become a character.
26:33And maybe that character that I created,
26:36that 300 pound, insecure guy that
26:39used to fake it till I make it type of guy,
26:43let me become your friend, let me lie to you
26:45until you like me type of guy--
26:48when you have any manhood, womanhood, a human being,
26:55a soul, a spirit, any--
26:58I must have just this much pride because that's exactly
27:02what opened the door for me.
27:03Because every day, you were a character.
27:05Every day, you were a clown.
27:06Every day, you opened that Spanish book or that science
27:11book or English book, and you looked at it.
27:13It looked like a foreign language.
27:17And you're saying, where do I start?
27:20Where do I start?
27:21And, obviously, it was necessary.
27:24The more I talk about it, it was necessary because what
27:26happened is I became haunted by the mere fact
27:31that this is my existence.
27:33And you got to live with that.
27:35And I lived with it for a lot of years.
27:38And so I sat back and said, OK, all right,
27:41I know what this takes.
27:42And when you sit back, as fucked up as I was--
27:46and I had a laundry list, a table
27:50like this of what I have to do to become
27:53just a human being that can make ends meet,
27:57that can make $1,000 a month.
27:59Just to get there was like, oh my god, dude, like how--
28:03I'm 16, 17, I can't read.
28:06I can't write.
28:09Oh my god, I'm so behind the power curve.
28:11And my brain is about being depressed.
28:13And my dad beat-- my mom's not home.
28:15And kids are calling me nigger at school.
28:17And I'm like, oh my god, man, what the fuck do I do?
28:21And it wasn't like someone came around and said,
28:23hey, man, you can do this.
28:26This is all me.
28:28Some people want to know where does this cold man come from.
28:32I'm not trying to be cold.
28:34It's the reality of my life.
28:36It's the reality of a lot of people's lives.
28:39And so, yeah, that had to happen for me to be haunted,
28:43to be haunted, to pull out, to extract
28:46the guy that I am today.
28:47That haunting is something that's still there today
28:51because no matter how much you improve,
28:53no matter how much you change who you are,
28:57it's not permanent.
28:59You don't just wake up and say, oh my god, man,
29:03you're David Goggins.
29:04You break records.
29:05You do this.
29:05You do that.
29:06People want to know, how are you able to just be so hard?
29:12Because I never turn the fucking thing off.
29:14Because once it turns off, I go right back
29:17to the David Goggins that is.
29:19And that's the guy that I'm constantly fighting every day.
29:23And it's a choice.
29:24And that choice makes you misunderstood.
29:27It makes you crazy.
29:28That's why I hate fucking social media.
29:31In 2013, people wanted me to write my book.
29:35I did it in 2018.
29:37Took five years.
29:39And the reason why I didn't do it--
29:40I sat at the table, and Jennifer was there.
29:42This was before she started working for me,
29:45I started dating her or whatever.
29:47And all these people were there.
29:48And they're like, man, you got to go on social media.
29:51And I was like, fuck you, man.
29:54It's poison.
29:56It's poison because I knew what I did to get where I am.
30:00And I'm going to have these people,
30:01these normal, everyday people, fat, lazy,
30:06exactly who I was judging me.
30:11Because I know it because I was once them.
30:13All my hard work, all my dedication,
30:15I'm going to have some normal dude get
30:17his little brownie, his little Ding Dong, Ho Ho, Twinkie,
30:20sit there with his coffee picking me apart.
30:24Oh, he must be unhappy.
30:27Do you know how hard it is to put these shoes
30:29on every damn morning?
30:30And I'm gonna have you pick me apart?
30:33So, yeah, there's so much that goes into this
30:39that I was like fuck this.
30:42I never wanted anything to do with it.
30:44So anyway.
30:48ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm not a psychologist.
30:50But knowing your story from what you've written,
30:53what you've said on social media,
30:54and elsewhere, podcasts and here now especially, it's
30:58amazing to me, and, frankly, it pulls
31:00at my heartstrings a little bit I
31:02realize that's not what you're trying to do
31:04but that in the course of your childhood and in your young
31:07adulthood that no one ever got between you and the world.
31:11I forget where I heard it that if a kid has just one
31:14person that believes in them--
31:16and I had my trials and tribulations.
31:17But I had great coaches, great mentors.
31:20I attached to them.
31:21I found them if they didn't necessarily find me.
31:23But I'm realizing that your situation was no one's ever
31:28said, hey, I'm going to stand here next to you
31:30or get in front of you, put a shield up.
31:33And so it's almost like you've got these different--
31:39it's all you, but there's versions of yourself--
31:41that like you knew social media-- like I don't know
31:44that I have the wherewithal in 2013 '14, '15, '16,
31:47'17 to get in front of myself while doing
31:50all this because I've already got so much going on in here.
31:53Is that about right?
31:53DAVID GOGGINS: That is right.
31:55But I had developed a lot of anger.
31:57And I still have it.
31:58And it will never go away for the normal human beings
32:02of this world because when you put yourself in the sewer
32:06like I was in-- and please, if someone saved me,
32:09come out and announce it to the world.
32:12There was no one.
32:14There's no one.
32:16So when you know that--
32:18and then I'm sitting at the table
32:20with all these smart people who are telling
32:21me what to do and shit and guiding me through my life
32:24now when I'm 40 fucking years old.
32:27It's 2000-- I don't know 40-something years old.
32:30Now I'm 49.
32:31And I'm looking at them all.
32:32And they're now trying to guide me
32:34on what's right on this poison.
32:39And so, yeah, what you say is right.
32:41But for me, it was more of I know now.
32:46I don't need you to guide my future.
32:50I know what's good for me and what's bad for me.
32:53And for me, it took every bit of focus I could.
32:56And I know social media--
32:57that's why people love to go on there because they want to show
33:01you the good side of life.
33:05I'm not teaching good side of life.
33:07So I had to figure out a way when
33:09I came on 2016 of teaching you what life really is
33:14for the majority of us is hell.
33:17And so while people love to show you the cars, and the house,
33:22and the vacations and shit, all that's good.
33:25All that's happy.
33:27I'm going to show you the side that I know most of you
33:30are going through.
33:31And people hide very well.
33:33I don't want to hide anymore.
33:35I hid it for 24 fucking years.
33:38So that's why now when I told you
33:39we can talk about whatever you want
33:41because as human beings, the first thing we have to learn--
33:46I also stuttered real bad growing up.
33:47So if you hear me stutter every now and then,
33:49it's because that was part of my life also.
33:53So it's funny.
33:55Human beings want to show you the best side.
33:57And they want to hide the worst side.
33:59For me, I'm going to teach you how
34:01to be vulnerable because that's the only way you fix yourself.
34:05You don't fix yourself by coming out here
34:07and me selling you some fucking books.
34:09That's why I don't have them.
34:11I forgot them.
34:13I'm glad people got something from the book.
34:16I want you to learn that the only way you grow
34:21is how to look at yourself and say, OK,
34:24like I did, table longer than this, what the fuck I have
34:28to do to get somewhere?
34:30There was nothing good on there, nothing.
34:32Yeah, I loved playing basketball.
34:34I left that out.
34:35That's something I love to do.
34:37I don't care about that.
34:38That didn't make the fucking list
34:40because the list that I had to live by
34:42was the very list that was going to get me at this table
34:45with you to talk to you to the normal human beings, which
34:50I once was, about how you can get somewhere and how it looks.
34:55It looks very ugly.
34:58There's no fucking passion.
35:00There's no fucking motivation.
35:02There's no, oh my god, man, I fucking--
35:05no, it's every day of your life just doing,
35:11no passion, no discipline, no motivation, all these words.
35:15I hate that so many people fucking use these words now
35:17because it's watered.
35:20Someone sitting in the room by themselves
35:22and they figure themselves out and say, god, this
35:24is going to fucking suck.
35:27Where's passion when you're 300 pounds?
35:31Where's the motivation when you can't read and write?
35:33Where is it?
35:34So how did this happen?
35:36I just fucking did.
35:38I just did.
35:40I said maybe at the end of this journey,
35:41there will be something there for me.
35:43If not, I can read.
35:46If not, I'm 185 fucking pounds.
35:50There was no magic potion.
35:52There was no, oh, let me wake up and look at some shit.
35:55No.
35:56All those words are overused.
35:58They're bullshit.
35:59It's all bullshit.
36:01Just do.
36:02You're living.
36:03How do you want to live?
36:05How do you want to die?
36:06How do you want to fucking be remembered?
36:09That's it.
36:11That's it.
36:12Period.
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37:10The word haunted is ringing in my head.
37:13DAVID GOGGINS: Yep.
37:15ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think it's such a powerful word.
37:17DAVID GOGGINS: Yep.
37:18ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because I was about to m
37:21it seems like a huge part of your process, maybe
37:24the entire process, is it's all stick no carrot,
37:27you talk about the carrot, the positive thing.
37:29And then there's the stick, the thing you're trying to avoid.
37:32I feel like it's-- the way it's landing for me is it's all
37:38stick and gas pedal.
37:39DAVID GOGGINS: That's it.
37:40ANDREW HUBERMAN: There's no carrot.
37:41You're not imagining, oh, when I'm a paramedic, when
37:44the book is published.
37:45And, obviously, you set those goals,
37:47and you make those targets.
37:48But it's all stick.
37:49DAVID GOGGINS: All stick.
37:51ANDREW HUBERMAN: No carrot.
37:52DAVID GOGGINS: Think about that.
37:54I'm waking up right now studying.
37:56Like I have a test tomorrow.
37:59I already passed the fucking test.
38:01Think about that.
38:03Every day in my life, that's what I must do just
38:06to retain what I learned.
38:09Four hours plus a day, I go through and do that.
38:13There's no stick.
38:14Or there's only a stick.
38:16There's never been a carrot, which
38:18is why when I speak to people, I have to figure out
38:25a way to resonate with them.
38:27Because all I want to say to them
38:30is let me teach you the real life, how it really is.
38:35The reason why you're a loser and the reason why you're not
38:37fucking making it and the reason why you're
38:40trying to go to all these--
38:41I go to all these fucking conventions,
38:42speak all the fucking time.
38:44I look in the fucking audience.
38:46And these people sign up, sign up,
38:48sign up fucking every year go to a convention,
38:50thinking they're going to learn something fucking different.
38:53No, you're lazy.
38:55You know exactly what to do, exactly what to do.
38:58Because even me in my state of I can't read and write,
39:03I knew exactly what to do.
39:06It just sucks doing it.
39:08It sucks to do it.
39:10It sucks to wake up every morning of your life
39:13and say, god, man, I'm not smart.
39:16So guess what I got to do.
39:18I got to study the same shit that I got one of the highest
39:21scores in the nation on and do it again, and do it again,
39:26and do it again.
39:27It's not just there.
39:28It's not just there permanently for me.
39:30So, yeah, it's all stick.
39:33It's all stick.
39:35The only carrot you have is like maybe, maybe.
39:42Because whenever I take these tests that are real hard,
39:45the back of my brain is like a good chance
39:48you're not going to make it, Goggins.
39:50This ain't you, bro.
39:52This ain't you.
39:53You weren't born like this.
39:55This ain't you.
39:56The real you, bro--
39:58study all you want to.
39:59But the second that fucking computer
40:00comes on with 150 questions, this ain't you, man.
40:05And somehow, comes back.
40:07I passed.
40:08I passed again, passed again.
40:11But that real me back here every fucking time
40:14is saying that ain't you, bro.
40:17That ain't you.
40:19And I have to outwork that voice.
40:22When I'm taking that test and I get
40:24to a question I don't fucking know the answer,
40:26I'm like fuck, man.
40:27And then say, see I told you, man.
40:30That ain't you.
40:33You're 300 pounds, man.
40:34You sit at home.
40:34You figure out how to do your hair.
40:36That's what you do, how to come to school
40:38with the reverse baldness when you're 16.
40:42That's you.
40:44So there is no get out of jail free card.
40:49This is why I say stay hard.
40:51Because when you weren't given the gifts,
40:54the only thing you can do in life is stay hard.
40:58And I know people cannot stand me.
41:01They can't stand this talk.
41:04This is all you can do.
41:07There's no magic pill or a magic potion.
41:10All you can do is outwork the man
41:14that God created or woman in you.
41:17And what that looks like is unfun.
41:20That's why I said, do not do a documentary on me
41:24because people will not see the truth.
41:27They will see what they want to see is
41:29I don't want to live like that.
41:31Good, good.
41:33And you will live exactly the way
41:35you live now, questioning who you are,
41:38wondering what is possible, wondering
41:40what you are capable of doing.
41:42That's how that looks or you can be me, which am I happy?
41:48I don't know.
41:48Never really thought about it.
41:50Don't really care about it because all I really
41:51cared about was when I looked in that fucking mirror,
41:54I saw a piece of shit.
41:55Happiness wasn't on the mirror at 16 or when I was 300 pounds.
41:59It wasn't like, I'm looking for happiness.
42:02No, I'm looking at myself in the mirror and say, all right,
42:05motherfucker, you did it again today.
42:08You're a bad boy because that shit sucks.
42:11I have about a couple of minutes of that that I got the carrot.
42:16The second I lay down and go to bed, the carrots gone
42:18because I'm waking up all through the night to check
42:21the work I did that day.
42:24Did I get this drug right?
42:25Did I get this right?
42:26Did I get that right?
42:28What did I do?
42:29Oh my god, fuck, I'm already losing it.
42:33Stick.
42:35ANDREW HUBERMAN: That stick's haunting you.
42:37DAVID GOGGINS: Haunting me.
42:38ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's following you around.
42:39So no picture of Jordan on the wall.
42:41You're not listening to YouTube inspiration video.
42:43DAVID GOGGINS: No.
42:44ANDREW HUBERMAN: Those would be all your voice anyway.
42:46[LAUGHTER]
42:47You're not listening to your top 10 favorite songs
42:50just to get rolling and then lace the shoes, hit the books.
42:54It's all in here.
42:55DAVID GOGGINS: All in there.
42:56I used to do that when I was fat.
42:58Rocky, I mean, that was my thing.
43:01Round 14 was my thing.
43:03And as I got older and older and older, that started to go away.
43:09And I started to create--
43:13I had all these people that I used to watch.
43:15Rocky was one, Barnes, Elias from "Platoon,"
43:21Jack from "A Few Good Men" when he's on the stand going crazy.
43:25I saw a lot of these characters that I looked at
43:28and I was like, man, I ain't got none of that.
43:31But they were characters.
43:33After a while, I lived a life so disciplined
43:38that every body that I once looked
43:40to, these fake characters, I built that as a man.
43:46And when I was younger, I had this image in my mind
43:50of what does a man look like to me?
43:52And I got all these people who are badasses, characters.
43:58And in my mind, I became that.
44:01And that's what kept me going a lot was
44:04I had this pipe dream of becoming a little bit of this
44:07and a little bit of that because when
44:08you have no parents raising you and you
44:11have no role models growing up, it's not daydreaming.
44:16You start to create a reality like, mm, maybe I can be that.
44:25And after becoming this guy, that
44:31is the biggest thing I can ever do in my life is
44:33I became that guy.
44:35That I once looked at all these, guys and now
44:37I look at myself like, god, who the fuck can do that?
44:39I can.
44:41But what it takes is a discipline
44:43that no one can ever even--
44:48they don't understand it.
44:49They don't understand it.
44:50But everybody has the ability to do it,
44:52but they just don't want to.
44:53They want to keep asking questions
44:55and keep going to seminars.
44:57And the greatness is right in you.
44:59And that's why once again--
45:00I say this a million times here, I do not feel sorry for you.
45:04I will not sugarcoat what I'm going
45:07to say to you because all of you know
45:09what I'm saying is the truth.
45:12Everybody knows it's the truth.
45:14This is what it looks like.
45:15And you know it too.
45:16You know it too.
45:18If you ain't got nothing, I hate to tell you what it looks like.
45:20It's ugly.
45:21It's not a documentary.
45:22It's not an HBO special.
45:24You ain't going to watch me like, hey, man,
45:25you guys gotta watch this.
45:26No, it's like, oh, god, this looks like a train wreck.
45:28It's like a nightmare.
45:29This looks like this guy's got-- no, that's what it looks like.
45:32Hard work looks horrible.
45:34It's not motivating.
45:36It's not motivating at all.
45:37It ain't like Rocky round 14 where he gets knocked down
45:40and goes like this to Apollo Creed.
45:42Looks like a man being stuck in a fucking dungeon.
45:45And there's no fucking way out.
45:48But you have the fucking key.
45:52But you refuse to use it.
45:55And that's nothing motivating about that.
45:57So, yes, no documentary on David Goggins.
46:00ANDREW HUBERMAN: The real life--
46:01DAVID GOGGINS: The real life.
46:02ANDREW HUBERMAN: --David Goggins is the documentary.
46:04It's already being written.
46:07You're it.
46:08DAVID GOGGINS: Right.
46:08ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I'm going to share a little neuroscience
46:10tidbit.
46:11DAVID GOGGINS: Love it.
46:11ANDREW HUBERMAN: But I think it's one
46:13that you'll appreciate.
46:14Most people don't know this, but there's
46:16a brain structure called the anterior mid-cingulate cortex.
46:20As we pointed out before, that's a noun.
46:22It's a name.
46:22It doesn't mean anything.
46:23We could call it the Cookie Monster.
46:26But what's interesting about this brain
46:28area is there are now a lot of data
46:31in humans, not some mouse study, showing that when people do
46:36something they don't want to do like add three
46:39hours of exercise per day or per week
46:43or when people who are trying to diet and lose weight
46:46resist eating something, when people do anything
46:49that they, and this is the important part,
46:51that they don't want to do, it's not about adding more work.
46:54It's about adding more work that you don't want to do.
46:58This brain area gets bigger.
47:00Now here's what's especially interesting about this brain
47:02area to me.
47:03And by the way, I'm only learning this
47:04recently because it's new data.
47:07But there's a lot of it.
47:08The anterior mid-cingulate cortex
47:11is smaller in obese people.
47:14It gets bigger when they diet.
47:17It's larger in athletes.
47:20It's especially large or grows larger
47:23in people that see themselves as challenged
47:27and overcome some challenge.
47:30And in people that live a very long time,
47:35this area keeps its size.
47:38In many ways, scientists are starting
47:40to think of the anterior mid-cingulate cortex not just
47:43as one of the seats of willpower but perhaps actually
47:48the seat of the will to live.
47:50DAVID GOGGINS: See, now we're talking.
47:52ANDREW HUBERMAN: And when I learned
47:52about the anterior mid-cingulate cortex,
47:54I was like almost out of my seat.
47:56And I've been in the neuroscience game
47:57since I was 20.
47:58DAVID GOGGINS: Now we're talking.
47:59ANDREW HUBERMAN: We're the same age.
47:59And I was so pumped because I've heard of the amygdala, fear,
48:02prefrontal cortex.
48:03It's planning an action.
48:04I could tell you every brain area and every--
48:06I teach neuroanatomy to medical students.
48:08But when I started seeing the data
48:11on the anterior mid-cingulate cortex, I was like, whoa,
48:16this is interesting.
48:18And all the data point to the fact
48:20that we can build this area up.
48:22But that as quickly as we build it up,
48:25if we don't continue to invest in things that are hard for us,
48:29that we don't want to do-- that's the part that
48:31feels so Goggin-esque to me, that we don't want to do.
48:35Like if you love the ice bath-- yeah, I love the ice bath--
48:38and you go from 1 minute to 10 minutes,
48:40guess what, your anterior mid-cingulate cortex did not
48:42grow.
48:43DAVID GOGGINS: None.
48:44ANDREW HUBERMAN: But if you hate the cold water,
48:46if you're afraid of drowning and you get into water
48:49and put your head under and survive,
48:54then the anterior mid-cingulate cortex gets bigger.
48:56But if you don't do it the next day or if you do it the next
48:59day and you enjoy it because, hey, hey, I did it yesterday,
49:02woo-hoo, happy me, Merry Christmas as you would say--
49:04DAVID GOGGINS: Right.
49:05Merry Christmas.
49:06ANDREW HUBERMAN: --guess what, the anterior
49:07mid-cingulate cortex shrinks again.
49:10To me, this is one of the most important discoveries
49:12that neuroscience has ever made because it's
49:16that I don't want to do something but do it anyway
49:19that grows this area.
49:21And it's almost like--
49:22I have a friend.
49:23He's been sober 30 years from alcohol.
49:25And he always says, the amazing thing about addiction
49:27is there's a cure.
49:29The problem is it only works one day at a time.
49:32And so you have to renew it every day.
49:34DAVID GOGGINS: That's right.
49:35ANDREW HUBERMAN: So the anterior mid-cingulate cortex to me--
49:37when I learned about it, two things went off in my head.
49:40Whoa, this is super interesting.
49:41And, two, I got to tell David Goggins about this.
49:43And I waited until now--
49:45DAVID GOGGINS: I'm glad.
49:46ANDREW HUBERMAN: --to tell you because I felt like, well,
49:48for obvious reasons I wanted to tell you
49:50and I wanted to tell you here.
49:51DAVID GOGGINS: Well, I love that because that's
49:54how I've lived my entire life.
49:55I don't know anything about that.
49:57But people go, man, you have such a strong will.
50:01It's something that you build.
50:03Like I never forget I was on a podcast one time.
50:05And this dude goes you were blessed with a strong mind.
50:10Like the hell are you talking about I
50:15was blessed with a strong mind?
50:17That's something that you have to develop.
50:20You develop that over years, decades of suffering
50:25and going back into the suffer.
50:28That's why a lot of people who graduate Navy SEAL training,
50:31they want to know--
50:35I talk about it very openly all the time.
50:39A lot of guys don't want to go back into that water,
50:42don't want to go back into the hard stuff.
50:44And maybe not-- anything hard, anything hard
50:47in life, once you get through it, it's like you become a POW.
50:52Like how many POWs you know want to go back to POW camp?
50:55None.
50:56When something sucks so bad in life--
50:59this is on this that we're talking about now--
51:03very few people want to go back.
51:05They're happy they graduated.
51:09I realized I'm the same way.
51:12I don't want to go back.
51:14I have to go back.
51:16I must go back because that is exactly where all the knowledge
51:21of my life exists was back there in what you're exactly
51:25what you're talking about.
51:26Well, I didn't know anything about this.
51:28But how I grew a will was constantly doing these things
51:33to now it's just life.
51:37I wake up.
51:37While it still sucks, it's just life.
51:40You don't sit back and like, oh my god.
51:42Like I have days I don't want to do.
51:44But I know I'm going to do it.
51:46I know from years of just doing it.
51:49So that's beautiful.
51:51And this is why I came on here with you today.
51:53And I'm glad that you're talking about this because human beings
51:56need to hear this.
51:58They need to stop hearing these hacks on this and that.
52:03There's no fucking hack, bro.
52:05There's no fucking hack.
52:06Yeah, you may this and that and saunas and all this shit
52:11that they-- yeah, it's great.
52:13There is no fucking life hack.
52:16To grow that thing-- how do you grow it?
52:19Do it, and do it, and do it, and do it.
52:23That's the hack.
52:24The hack is going to fucking suck.
52:26And that's what I realized.
52:28That's what I realized.
52:29That's why I wanted to come on here today.
52:31I didn't want to come on here and talk
52:33about no fucking passion and purpose
52:35and how to get the fuck out of bed
52:37and how to hit a fucking alarm clock,
52:39all this catchphrase bullshit because that wasn't how
52:43I lived, wasn't how I lived.
52:46I lived, I woke up like every human being does
52:48and goes fuck, man.
52:49I'm a fucking piece of shit today.
52:51How the hell is this going to work out for me?
52:53And you fight that.
52:55And you fight that.
52:56You don't override it.
52:57There's no override button.
52:59It's the conversation in your head.
53:02So how do you do that?
53:04We don't have enough of these conversations
53:06about the real conversation that every human being is having.
53:10And they have no idea how to get out of it.
53:12But they do is that shit right there, man.
53:16You got to build your will.
53:18How you build your will?
53:20Exactly what you said, man.
53:21Exactly what you said.
53:23ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I feel like knowing
53:25the name of something, anterior mid-cingulate cortex,
53:27doesn't fundamentally change us.
53:29But one thing I like about biology
53:31is that willpower, if somebody feels they don't have it,
53:36feels like this thing that other people have.
53:38But everybody, unless they're brain-damaged,
53:40like a hole through their head, has two anterior
53:45mid-cingulate cortex, one on each side of their brain.
53:48Everyone has one.
53:49They have two.
53:50So I feel like it's just a question of opening the portal.
53:55And the portal-- again, I'm going to say 10 times,
53:59and forgive me-- is I think people
54:00go, oh, I do hard things.
54:01I do sets to failure.
54:03And then I do forced reps.
54:04I love training with weights.
54:06I love doing sets to failure.
54:07I even like forced reps.
54:08But guess what?
54:09I like forced reps.
54:10So I'll tell you, they don't build
54:12my anterior mid-cingulate cortex because I like to do it.
54:16Anything you like to do is not going
54:18to enhance this aspect of willpower.
54:20And it seems so obvious once you hear it.
54:22You kind of go, oh yeah, of course.
54:24But I think you really close that loop for people
54:29when you share what you're sharing today
54:32and what you've shared elsewhere before as well.
54:34When you're trying to explain the friction
54:36is the critical ingredient.
54:38And I think people think, oh, if it's effort, well,
54:40then I'm getting better.
54:41That's part of it, necessary, but not sufficient,
54:44as we say in science.
54:45But the suck part, the haunt, being haunted, the stick,
54:52they're really unpleasant terms.
54:53These are probably the most unpleasant terms we've ever
54:56used on this podcast.
54:58Those are the-- those are the levers.
55:01Those are the gears.
55:02And without those, this thing that you're talking about,
55:05David Goggins, as a verb--
55:08I sometimes make the joke, but it's not a joke.
55:11Goggins is a name, and it's a verb.
55:15People go, I'm on to Goggins that.
55:17But that's, I think--
55:20again, I'm not a psychologist.
55:21But I think that's what you're talking about,
55:23the stick, the friction, being haunted.
55:26It's the suck part that grows this anterior mid-cingulate
55:29cortex.
55:30DAVID GOGGINS: So now you know why
55:32there's so many people that fail in this world
55:35to figure out their purpose, their purpose in life.
55:40Where do I go?
55:41Because to grow that, now, you may not look like me,
55:48how my daily life looks.
55:50It don't look fun.
55:53Don't look fun.
55:56So it's a choice that people have to make in life.
55:59But what's so funny about it is even the richest of rich,
56:02who have everything, they always ask me this question.
56:07I feel like I'm missing something.
56:10I don't feel like I'm missing shit.
56:13I don't have what you all have.
56:15But you will never in my life hear me tell you
56:20I'm missing something.
56:21And everybody is.
56:23They're missing this feeling.
56:26I found it a long time ago.
56:29And I found it right there in that willpower thing.
56:32When you're nothing, nothing, and change yourself
56:36into something, like me, you call it happiness, peace,
56:43whatever the fuck you want to call it,
56:47people are missing exactly what went on with David Goggins.
56:51Why don't you smile?
56:52I do.
56:53I do.
56:54But I figured something out.
56:56That's why I am never--
56:58you never hear me say, I'm missing something.
57:00I found it years ago.
57:02You find it in the suck.
57:06You find it in the suck.
57:07And you find it repeatedly in the suck to the point
57:10where you know exactly who you are.
57:12Most people are missing something
57:13because they don't know who they are.
57:17They never examined themselves.
57:19They've never done this experiment on themselves.
57:23The lab rat.
57:24We're all lab rats.
57:25But you're also the scientist.
57:28You create your own self.
57:30Most people are missing something
57:32because there's so much trapped in there.
57:35I don't even want to say potential.
57:37I think that's a word-- it's used out too much too.
57:39There's so much in you that God or whoever the hell
57:42you believe in or if you're an atheist in you
57:44that you have not unlocked, that you walk around
57:48with this gorgeous wife or great husband and all this money.
57:51You're like, god, I feel like I'm missing something.
57:54Yeah, because it's about 75% of you
57:58is still fucking in there, still chained up because you just
58:03didn't want to find your willpower,
58:05didn't want to find your soul, your will, your heart,
58:07your determination, your guts, your courage.
58:10And what that looks like, it looks scary,
58:12like you're little scary lab that went in.
58:14Scary to wake up every day and say, I'm stupid,
58:18but I'm going to figure out a way
58:19to be smarter versus saying, man, I just can't do that.
58:24So you limit this box.
58:25So your box becomes so small of things you can do.
58:29My box wasn't even a box.
58:31It was a fucking little pinhole.
58:35And then through examining myself,
58:38getting some willpower, some courage,
58:41it became bigger than this table.
58:42But that's what we all do.
58:43That's why I wanted to come here today and talk
58:45to you about real shit, not no fucking hacks.
58:48There's no hacks, bro.
58:50It's you against you.
58:52You against you.
58:54And if you misunderstand that, you
58:56have a real problem, real problem.
58:59I can understand you misunderstand
59:00me, running down the street, shirt off, fuck this, no.
59:03Yeah.
59:04I can get it.
59:04I get it.
59:05If you misunderstand what I'm saying right now today,
59:09the problem is you.
59:11And you don't want to fix it.
59:13ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, the children of wealthy people
59:15are a case study in how not having enough friction
59:20can destroy a life.
59:21DAVID GOGGINS: True statement.
59:23ANDREW HUBERMAN: I mean, I could list off
59:24prominent names in the press.
59:26But those are actually the least interesting.
59:28What's probably more interesting, as an example,
59:30is all the ones we don't hear about because we never
59:33hear about them.
59:34They just dwindle and wither.
59:36Or I think there's this big category of people,
59:39I'm realizing, as we have this conversation today that they're
59:44not super successful.
59:45They're not struggling.
59:48They're successful enough that they never have to--
59:52you can get to the point where you
59:54don't have to impose friction.
59:56You even said it.
59:57Your bank account is in a place where you don't really
59:59need to do all the things you do,
1:00:01probably not even a small fraction of them.
1:00:02DAVID GOGGINS: Do nothing.
1:00:03ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.
1:00:04But you realize the stick and being haunted
1:00:06is the fuel and the engine.
1:00:09And you'd be a-- you'd be truly crazy to give that up
1:00:13because you've internalized all that.
1:00:15But most people, they're good enough for them.
1:00:19And so they don't actually want to be better badly enough
1:00:23in order to start going rung after rung.
1:00:28DAVID GOGGINS: Well, think about when you build willpower.
1:00:30And think about how much I've built.
1:00:33Now that you know about this--
1:00:35I didn't know about this.
1:00:36But think about how much I've built.
1:00:38Everything I've ever done in my life, I didn't want to do.
1:00:42Everything every day.
1:00:44I'm a lazy piece of shit.
1:00:48And I'm one of the hardest working people to ever step
1:00:50foot on this planet Earth.
1:00:51And I'm saying that very proudly because I know what I do.
1:00:54It's not cocky.
1:00:55I'll tell you I'm stupid.
1:00:57And I'll also tell you the exact opposite of what I've done.
1:01:01It's the truth.
1:01:03It is the truth.
1:01:04So imagine how much I've developed in that time frame.
1:01:07But this is the scary thing.
1:01:10Why most people don't want to do that and build that willpower
1:01:15is because it is scary.
1:01:18It unlocks a whole bunch of things about who you are
1:01:20and who you're not.
1:01:22And a lot of people don't want to go down that journey
1:01:24to discover who they are and who they're not
1:01:27because it's not a pretty journey.
1:01:30I mean, I've gone down it.
1:01:31It's not like I went down it once.
1:01:34I go down it all the time.
1:01:36And when you unlock that-- and you can't just turn it off.
1:01:39Like, people say, hey, how come you haven't retired yet?
1:01:43I built all this willpower.
1:01:47Do you think it's going to let me just
1:01:50retire because my knees hurt?
1:01:53It is telling me every morning--
1:01:55I wake up, and I'm like, man, my knees hurt.
1:01:58My legs hurt.
1:01:58My body hurts.
1:01:59But you can still run.
1:02:01So why aren't you running?
1:02:04If you can still run--
1:02:05there will be a time when you can't lace them up anymore.
1:02:07But you can still run.
1:02:10So I still run.
1:02:12When the time comes I can't run, the body will say,
1:02:16you just can't run.
1:02:17But if I can still do something, that
1:02:20willpower that I have created, it
1:02:23makes me do it every fucking day.
1:02:26And that's what they don't get.
1:02:27What builds a human being is you start with the small building
1:02:31blocks.
1:02:32And before you know it, man, you become something
1:02:34that it doesn't even make sense to most people
1:02:36because it's just who you are now.
1:02:38That's why I can still run at 50 with broke--
1:02:41at 49 with broke down knees and broke down body
1:02:43because my body knows you still can.
1:02:46Therefore, I do.
1:02:47Second you stop, the willpower is gone.
1:02:50And that's beautiful.
1:02:51I'm so glad you brought that to me because I always wondered,
1:02:55what's this separation thing now?
1:02:58At 24 years old, I started building something
1:03:00that I didn't even know was going
1:03:01to be what it is now at 49.
1:03:03And that's all it was.
1:03:05It was just that.
1:03:07ANDREW HUBERMAN: This structure, anterior mid-cingulate cortex,
1:03:10has inputs and outputs from a bunch of places.
1:03:12But you'll probably not be surprised to learn
1:03:15that it's strongly activated when we move our body when
1:03:20we don't want to move our body.
1:03:23I feel like it's like the David Goggins structure.
1:03:25DAVID GOGGINS: It really is.
1:03:27ANDREW HUBERMAN: It is.
1:03:28And it also has strong connections
1:03:30to the dopamine reward pathway.
1:03:31And everyone goes, yay, dopamine.
1:03:33Everyone loves dopamine.
1:03:34I'm partially responsible for people knowing a bit more
1:03:38about dopamine.
1:03:39But dopamine's badly understood.
1:03:41Everyone thinks dopamine, dopamine hits.
1:03:43It's about reward.
1:03:44It's about motivation and drive.
1:03:47And there are pain inputs to the dopamine centers of the brain.
1:03:51No one talks about that.
1:03:52Everyone's like, oh, you want the chocolate, chocolate, sex,
1:03:55cocaine.
1:03:56Yeah, that's all true.
1:03:57It'll release dopamine.
1:03:59Pain releases dopamine.
1:04:00The anterior mid-cingulate cortex
1:04:02can trigger the release of dopamine in response
1:04:05to this thing that we're calling friction.
1:04:07And that's a learned thing.
1:04:10That's something that no animal or human being
1:04:12comes into the world learning.
1:04:13We all are averse to pain.
1:04:16And like pleasure, like sugar, fat.
1:04:19Don't like hot surfaces.
1:04:21But this is a structure that learns.
1:04:25It has neuroplasticity, the ability
1:04:27to change throughout the entire life span.
1:04:29And here's the part that I think,
1:04:31again, is just neuro nerd speak for what you already know
1:04:34and have done and exemplify, is that people say,
1:04:38oh, it has plasticity.
1:04:39You can change it.
1:04:40But guess what?
1:04:40It has plasticity in both directions.
1:04:42It can grow.
1:04:43But just as easily as it can grow, it's like Silly Putty,
1:04:46it can shrink.
1:04:47So it requires constant upkeep.
1:04:51And that answer isn't one that people are going to like.
1:04:54They're like, give me the energy drink.
1:04:56Give me the supplement.
1:04:57Give me the-- give me the sauna protocol that's
1:04:59going to make my anterior mid-cingulate cortex-- there's
1:05:02someone out there right now who's going,
1:05:03wait, if I took transcranial magnetic stimulation
1:05:05and I stimulate-- yeah, you'd probably-- actually, they've
1:05:08done that.
1:05:08They stuck a little wire during neurosurgery
1:05:10into this structure.
1:05:12This was actually discovered by a colleague
1:05:14of mine, Joe Parvizi.
1:05:17Stimulate.
1:05:17And the patients go, I feel like there's a storm coming.
1:05:21And they go, oh, is it scary?
1:05:23And they go, no, I want to go through it.
1:05:25They come off the stimulation, and people are like--
1:05:28this is the seat of what we're talking about.
1:05:30DAVID GOGGINS: Right.
1:05:31Exactly.
1:05:32ANDREW HUBERMAN: And it learns.
1:05:33So the fact that you've kept this brain structure--
1:05:36I'm convinced if we imaged your brain, it'd be large,
1:05:40and it would be larger in two years, in a year.
1:05:44But this is the no days off rationale because it can grow,
1:05:48and it can shrink.
1:05:49DAVID GOGGINS: I know.
1:05:50What you're saying right now, I didn't know any of this.
1:05:54And I never-- and I always talk to you.
1:05:55But I wish I could just put this on paper.
1:05:59And you're saying it in a way that people can understand.
1:06:02I can never put it into words on what I built
1:06:06and the power that is within all of us.
1:06:10But you put it so in a scientific way.
1:06:14Most people, for me, he's just crazy.
1:06:16That's why I don't like talking about it, man.
1:06:19I know I'm not crazy.
1:06:21I know what I had to do to get where I had to go.
1:06:24People look at it as crazy because there are people
1:06:26that just--
1:06:27if you can't imagine yourself doing something,
1:06:31if you can't imagine yourself doing something,
1:06:33the person that's doing it is crazy
1:06:36because in your mind, the logic behind it, it doesn't compute.
1:06:41Therefore, you have to give somebody a title.
1:06:44And the title for me is usually he's crazy
1:06:47or he's this, he's that.
1:06:48No.
1:06:49No.
1:06:51For some reason, me wanting to be somebody
1:06:53so fucking bad in my life, I created that.
1:06:57And I've been trying to figure out
1:06:59years of my life trying to explain to people.
1:07:02But even though you're explaining it now,
1:07:06this is the easy fucking part.
1:07:09Them listening to this shit is the easy fucking part.
1:07:13The part that why they're always be the ones of ones
1:07:18is because putting that practice,
1:07:22putting that into actual work, no, man.
1:07:26No.
1:07:27No.
1:07:27That's where the demons come in.
1:07:29That's where you're like, I don't want to be better.
1:07:33I don't want to be better.
1:07:34If this is what it takes to be better,
1:07:35I don't want to be better.
1:07:36So everybody's-- that's why there's a lot of average.
1:07:40And it makes me so fucking mad.
1:07:43Every day I walk this Earth, and I see average
1:07:46all over the fucking place.
1:07:48And they want to ask me, how did you do it?
1:07:51I can't tell you how because you're not going to fucking--
1:07:53you're not going to do it.
1:07:55You're not going to do it you.
1:07:56You're just going to--
1:07:57You're going to continue being like this every day
1:07:58you wake up.
1:07:59Like you said, it's like, get the coffee.
1:08:03Make the pancakes.
1:08:05Kiss the girl.
1:08:06Kiss the kids.
1:08:08You wake up, right to work.
1:08:10Immediate, your mind is in action.
1:08:13No one wants to do that.
1:08:15No one.
1:08:15And I don't blame them.
1:08:17But don't be mad when you're laying there
1:08:19in your fucking bed, and you're in the fucking hospital,
1:08:22and you're 70, 80, 90 years old.
1:08:24And you're thinking, man, I feel like I
1:08:27didn't fucking do something.
1:08:29Because you did.
1:08:30You didn't do it.
1:08:31You didn't do shit.
1:08:33You may have lived a great life, man,
1:08:35but you're always going to feel empty inside.
1:08:37I don't feel empty.
1:08:38So call me what you want.
1:08:39There's not one empty bone in my fucking body
1:08:44because I have figured out that really--
1:08:47the magic potion, at least to my life.
1:08:50And it's very rewarding.
1:08:52ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'd like to take a quick break
1:08:54and thank our sponsor, InsideTracker.
1:08:56InsideTracker is a personalized nutrition platform
1:08:59that analyzes data from your blood and DNA
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1:09:55People like to talk about what they used to be able to do.
1:09:58I hear this a lot.
1:09:59You should have seen me in high school.
1:10:01I always laugh.
1:10:02Like, yeah, OK.
1:10:03Got it.
1:10:04And it's not just guys.
1:10:05You should have seen me working out in high school.
1:10:08I was super fit.
1:10:09People will look back to a time where
1:10:11they felt like they were capable of something.
1:10:14And now they're not.
1:10:15And you kind of want to just grab them and go, wait.
1:10:18That was you then.
1:10:18It's you now.
1:10:19And but people tend to think about how
1:10:21the conditions that were around success
1:10:25must have been part of it.
1:10:27And you can understand why.
1:10:28It's very rational.
1:10:30I was in that situation.
1:10:31I was successful.
1:10:32I'm in this situation.
1:10:33I'm not.
1:10:34That was the past.
1:10:35This is the present.
1:10:37Ergo, capable.
1:10:39You see how people get into these loops.
1:10:41And as you mentioned, you spent the first 20 years of your life
1:10:43in extremely challenged circumstances.
1:10:46And then you can see how people get to a point
1:10:48where everything feels hard.
1:10:52Like, when you're 300 pounds--
1:10:53I haven't ever been 300 pounds.
1:10:55But I can't imagine it feels good to get up and move around.
1:10:59DAVID GOGGINS: It's defeating.
1:11:00ANDREW HUBERMAN: I got a friend.
1:11:01He's in excess of 300 pounds.
1:11:04We've been trying on him for years.
1:11:05But no win.
1:11:07And he's got crazy psoriasis on the back of his calves.
1:11:10And he actually smells bad sometimes
1:11:13because he can't wash as well as he would.
1:11:15He's big, big.
1:11:17And it pulls all my sympathy.
1:11:20But life is very hard for him and getting worse.
1:11:23He's a young guy with a lot of medical issues
1:11:25now, for obvious reasons.
1:11:27And so I think people like that think, well, it's already hard.
1:11:31Why would I make it harder?
1:11:34Your message is a little different.
1:11:36And you have the life experience.
1:11:38DAVID GOGGINS: It's a lot different.
1:11:38ANDREW HUBERMAN: You've been there.
1:11:40So for me, saying, oh yeah, lose weight--
1:11:44I was a skinny guy who got to be a less skinny guy.
1:11:47So I don't really have a foot to stand on.
1:11:53What do you say to those people who are like,
1:11:55listen, getting up in the morning is hard.
1:11:58Trying to not dissolve into a puddle of my own tears
1:12:00and my own misery is hard.
1:12:03DAVID GOGGINS: You know why people connect with my books
1:12:06so well?
1:12:06For some reason, God put me in almost every fucked up
1:12:09situation on the planet Earth.
1:12:11So when I talk to people, it's not sugar-coated
1:12:14because I'm not saying it from I was a 175 pounds my whole life.
1:12:21I don't say much to those people.
1:12:24Maybe you're a piece of shit.
1:12:27Maybe you want to be nobody.
1:12:29Maybe you're happy exactly where you are in life
1:12:31because obviously, you are.
1:12:33Maybe you don't have the determination
1:12:35to be somebody better than who you are.
1:12:37And if you want to live with that, I'll support you in that.
1:12:42If you're good with being who you are, that every day you
1:12:46wake up, and every day, you smell like shit because you
1:12:48can't wash your body well, and your skin is messed up
1:12:51because your health's so bad, and you
1:12:53can't put your clothes on right, you need help with that.
1:12:54You need help like-- when I was 300 pounds,
1:12:56I needed help wiping my ass.
1:12:59That makes you feel good?
1:13:02Nothing I can say to you.
1:13:04If every day you wake up with this-- see, people are haunted.
1:13:08But they obviously like horror films
1:13:10because they keep watching the same fucking movie.
1:13:13I don't like horror films.
1:13:14A lot of people like horror films.
1:13:16So I don't say much to them.
1:13:18I say exactly what I said to you right there
1:13:21because I was once you.
1:13:24I didn't like horror films, so I changed it.
1:13:26Some people are just--
1:13:28they become-- like you said, it gets real small
1:13:31when you're lazy and you're fat, your will.
1:13:35Their will is so small that they don't have any.
1:13:39And you can't give it to them.
1:13:41There has to be something-- this is
1:13:42what I'm talking about now because this isn't a hack.
1:13:47This has to be in you.
1:13:49Something in you has to wake up.
1:13:53And usually, the only person that can wake it up is you.
1:13:56Sometimes you can read a David Goggins book
1:13:58because I was all this shit and then a lot more of fucked up.
1:14:03But if you don't have a little flame, just barely--
1:14:08you're done.
1:14:10I can't light it for you.
1:14:13And that's the harsh reality of this life
1:14:15that I want to get across so fucking bad.
1:14:18You can watch me.
1:14:19You can watch you.
1:14:20You can watch fucking Rogan and Cameron
1:14:22Hanes, all these motherfuckers.
1:14:23You can go to Tony Robbins's fucking bullshit,
1:14:26all this shit.
1:14:27You can do all this shit.
1:14:30You're going to keep going back and keep
1:14:32spending money and spending money and spending
1:14:35money with no results.
1:14:36You're going to wonder, wow.
1:14:37Maybe let me go try out David Goggins.
1:14:39He ain't going to fucking help you.
1:14:42You have to explore, examine the insides of yourself.
1:14:47And what do you really want out of life?
1:14:49Your friend and a lot of people out here
1:14:52just don't fucking want it.
1:14:54So guess what?
1:14:56Have fun with your life.
1:14:58Go from 300 to 350 to 400 to 450 to 500
1:15:03because you don't want it.
1:15:07And that's the harsh reality.
1:15:09I can't give you shit.
1:15:11You can't give them shit.
1:15:12We can give you ideas.
1:15:14But end of the day, when I was losing the weight,
1:15:18I had to miserably wake up every morning in the cold
1:15:22because it was Indiana, November, when it started.
1:15:25I was miserable.
1:15:28This is your new life.
1:15:31Take it or leave it.
1:15:33There's no happiness about it.
1:15:35There's no peace behind it.
1:15:37It sucks.
1:15:38It just fucking sucks.
1:15:41And that's the one thing, if I could teach anybody anything,
1:15:46it just fucking sucks.
1:15:48And it's going to continue to suck.
1:15:51And then one day, you'll get to a special part in your life
1:15:54that it might get a little bit better.
1:15:56But to lose the weight you have to lose, my friend, sorry.
1:16:02It's going to suck every fucking day because then when
1:16:05you're 300 pounds, you're going to go out to lose weight,
1:16:07you could probably get injured.
1:16:09So then you got to work on the injury.
1:16:11And then you get even more depressed.
1:16:12This is what I went through.
1:16:13And then you're hungry because now you're depressed.
1:16:16It's just a vicious cycle.
1:16:18And if you're not strong mentally
1:16:21and you have no willpower, you're
1:16:23going to continue falling back in this hole
1:16:25versus the man that sits back and goes,
1:16:27all right, motherfucker.
1:16:28This is why I cuss because this is what is in me.
1:16:31This is what it took for me to be me.
1:16:34Sorry.
1:16:35It didn't take, hey, OK, we're going to do this today.
1:16:37No.
1:16:37This fucking really sucks.
1:16:39This is real, dude.
1:16:41This is real.
1:16:43And every day, I'm set back.
1:16:46I'm set back.
1:16:46I'm set back.
1:16:47I'm set back.
1:16:48So this is what I would tell your boy.
1:16:50This is exactly what I'd tell him.
1:16:51Every day you wake up, you're going to probably
1:16:53be set back for the first four weeks
1:16:55before you lose significant weight because the mind is
1:16:58going to be fucking with you the whole time.
1:17:00There's no dopamine.
1:17:02There's no dopamine in there at 300 pounds.
1:17:05You got nothing.
1:17:06Your hormones are shot.
1:17:08You have to envision something that is more powerful than you.
1:17:13Something has to get you out of bed.
1:17:17And you have to create it.
1:17:18It has to be false because you're not it.
1:17:21You're a fat piece of shit.
1:17:23And that's the reality of it.
1:17:25So you have to create a false reality, to live in that
1:17:30just to get to work on yourself.
1:17:35That's the reality.
1:17:36ANDREW HUBERMAN: He'll see this, and he'll
1:17:38appreciate that message.
1:17:39We'll see what he does.
1:17:40DAVID GOGGINS: We'll see.
1:17:41ANDREW HUBERMAN: So far, last 13 years, it's been no movement.
1:17:44But I have had other friends who were
1:17:48drug and alcohol addicts who quit after one conversation.
1:17:52Never went back.
1:17:53DAVID GOGGINS: That's awesome.
1:17:54That means they want it.
1:17:55ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, just one guy, I won't out him,
1:17:58but walked up to me at a party in 2019, July 4th party,
1:18:01and said, I'm a pile.
1:18:04And I go, what?
1:18:05And he goes, I'm a pile.
1:18:05Look at me.
1:18:06I'm 60 pounds overweight.
1:18:07And I go, do you drink?
1:18:08He goes, every day.
1:18:08I go, how much?
1:18:09He goes, a case.
1:18:11He goes, I smoke a lot of weed.
1:18:12But he's successful in other areas of his life.
1:18:15And so I said, well, here's what I know.
1:18:18Quit alcohol and weed for you.
1:18:20I'm not telling people what to do.
1:18:22Don't eat until 2:00 PM.
1:18:24Get on an exercise bike, and pedal
1:18:27in the morning like someone's chasing you with a poison dart
1:18:31until you want to puke.
1:18:33And I was kind of half-joking.
1:18:35And then two months later, he was, like,
1:18:39I haven't had a drink.
1:18:40I lost 30 pounds.
1:18:41He lost those 60 pounds.
1:18:42He never went back.
1:18:42Now, he's super fit.
1:18:44It's amazing.
1:18:45So some people flip the switch.
1:18:47He is very self-critical by nature.
1:18:50DAVID GOGGINS: That's what flips--
1:18:51ANDREW HUBERMAN: He's super self-critical.
1:18:53DAVID GOGGINS: Yep.
1:18:53That's what flips the switch.
1:18:55Think about it, man.
1:18:57We know what to do.
1:18:59We don't need Andrew Huberman to tell us what to do.
1:19:02We know what to do, every one of us.
1:19:05That's why he flipped it so fast because he knew what to do.
1:19:10He didn't go by your exact protocol.
1:19:13He didn't go by the exact--
1:19:15no.
1:19:15He knew exactly what to do.
1:19:19And you just saying some shit to him, it woke something up.
1:19:24He knew what to do.
1:19:25And that's the thing that people need to get that.
1:19:28You know what to do.
1:19:29Why aren't you doing it?
1:19:31ANDREW HUBERMAN: And I'm talking about myself now.
1:19:34Those modes of just kind of passive consumption,
1:19:37they're so easy to wash over us.
1:19:39I used to have this thing, and I'm fighting this
1:19:41now because I knew we were going to have this conversation
1:19:43today, where I like to start things
1:19:44on the hour or the half hour.
1:19:46Worst practice in the world for me
1:19:50because if I miss that half hour, I'm like, oh, it's 12:33.
1:19:55I'll start at 12:45.
1:19:58Ah, it's 12:45.
1:20:00I'll start at 1:00.
1:20:01I just lost time.
1:20:03And so this is so stupid.
1:20:05And the other day, I was like, man, I
1:20:07got to tell David about this because my new thing is I start
1:20:10no matter what time it is.
1:20:12If I wake up in the middle of the night--
1:20:13I got a friend.
1:20:14He paints in the middle of the night.
1:20:15I'm like, you're an insomniac?
1:20:16He's like, I don't know.
1:20:17I just do it.
1:20:18Then sometimes he goes back to sleep.
1:20:19Sometimes he doesn't.
1:20:20Everyone's got their thing.
1:20:21But I thought about this.
1:20:22I'm like, no more am I going to say I'm starting
1:20:24at 1:00 because I know me.
1:20:26If I miss the 1:00 ding and then my pen's not hitting the paper
1:20:30or I'm not typing on the keyboard,
1:20:32I'm not going to do it.
1:20:33But That's a self-admitted weakness.
1:20:36DAVID GOGGINS: I love it, man.
1:20:37I had that for a lot of years.
1:20:40I know I'm going to do it.
1:20:43That's the haunting part is that it's going to happen.
1:20:48It has to happen.
1:20:51And that's a fact.
1:20:52Like, there's no get out of jail free card, bro.
1:20:55None.
1:20:56Like, that is a life that I don't know.
1:21:00I don't have that ability.
1:21:03Or I have the ability.
1:21:04I don't have the--
1:21:07I'm not good enough, smart enough.
1:21:11I'm not talented enough to do that.
1:21:16Some people are.
1:21:18Some people can start at 1:00.
1:21:19Some people don't have to start at all.
1:21:22If you lack talent, you can't sit back and say,
1:21:27I'll start in half an hour.
1:21:30I can't do that.
1:21:31I got to start now.
1:21:32And after I get back from starting, I got to start again.
1:21:35And then when I get done with that run or that study session,
1:21:38if it wasn't good enough, I got to go back again
1:21:41because repetition is what taught me everything.
1:21:45So you can honestly outwork anything.
1:21:48But it's that you, obviously, are a very talented man.
1:21:53ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I have worked hard at certain things
1:21:56and built up some things that I've
1:21:59been good at most of my life.
1:22:00DAVID GOGGINS: You're amazing.
1:22:01ANDREW HUBERMAN: Gathering, organizing, and disseminating
1:22:03information's something I've been
1:22:04doing since I was a little kid.
1:22:05I used to give lectures at school on Monday about stuff
1:22:08I learned over the weekend.
1:22:09DAVID GOGGINS: See, check that out.
1:22:10ANDREW HUBERMAN: But they took me to a psychiatrist.
1:22:12We're the same age.
1:22:13Back then, if you got sent to a psychiatrist,
1:22:14people thought you were crazy.
1:22:16DAVID GOGGINS: I was one.
1:22:16ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, exactly.
1:22:17DAVID GOGGINS: I was one.
1:22:18ANDREW HUBERMAN: Exactly.
1:22:19So I remember feeling like a freak.
1:22:20Also, I didn't have a stutter, but I had a grunting tic.
1:22:23It comes back when I'm tired.
1:22:24And the only thing that helped that was hitting
1:22:27my head on something, shaking my head,
1:22:31which is why skateboarding was good because I'd slam,
1:22:33and I'd feel like, oh.
1:22:34I feel good.
1:22:35But that's not healthy.
1:22:37That's not good.
1:22:38Or just work.
1:22:39Work is what gets it out.
1:22:40It's like an-- it's like an RPM or high.
1:22:42[REVVING SOUND] Anyway, that's me.
1:22:45But yeah, I think certain things over time,
1:22:47I feel like talent or gifts or whatever you want to call them,
1:22:50but there are many things that are
1:22:51exceedingly difficult for me.
1:22:54And I have learned from your example.
1:22:55I know that you are very both humble and very clear
1:22:59that you don't have-- you say, you're
1:23:01not going to get it by examining you.
1:23:03But I think the way you're sharing today
1:23:06and the way you've shared it on other podcasts before,
1:23:09there are pieces that really help
1:23:11people feel into the process of what
1:23:15you're talking about today.
1:23:16We're elaborating on it, I think, a lot, this notion
1:23:19of being haunted and the stick.
1:23:21I mean, of course, of course, now it makes so much sense why
1:23:25you don't want to talk about sleep or rest or recovery
1:23:27because that's--
1:23:28sure, that's important.
1:23:30I've heard you say, yes, you sleep.
1:23:31Yes, you eat.
1:23:32Yes, you hydrate.
1:23:33Yes, you will stretch your psoas or whatever.
1:23:35But it's funny how that becomes the viral message.
1:23:37DAVID GOGGINS: That's why I said fuck that today.
1:23:38ANDREW HUBERMAN: But that's not the unique--
1:23:40that's not the unique message that you carry.
1:23:44Like, anyone can talk about that.
1:23:46So do I have that right?
1:23:47That you're acknowledging sleep is important.
1:23:49Recovery is important.
1:23:50DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.
1:23:50ANDREW HUBERMAN: But that's not what you're about.
1:23:52DAVID GOGGINS: You have to forego something.
1:23:54Yes.
1:23:55Ice baths.
1:23:57Saunas.
1:23:58Sleep.
1:23:59Nutrition.
1:24:00All this shit's so fucking important, dude.
1:24:03I don't have time for some of it.
1:24:06To extract what I had to extract, something had to give.
1:24:10Like, you talk about you when you were younger.
1:24:12You would give these speeches and stuff.
1:24:15The same age you were giving speeches,
1:24:17I was trying to figure out how to say the without stuttering.
1:24:21And I realized, as I got older, that all these things are
1:24:24important.
1:24:26But for me to stop stuttering, I got
1:24:28to build fucking confidence.
1:24:32And speech therapy didn't help that.
1:24:34Nothing helped that.
1:24:36I have to forgo a lot of shit to be as fucked up
1:24:40as I am to build confidence, for me
1:24:43to stand in a fucking room of 10,000-- of one person, and not
1:24:46[STUTTERING SOUNDS] and be like, oh, and put my head down.
1:24:49Let me look around.
1:24:51Let me read these paragraphs first.
1:24:54And then before I read the paragraphs,
1:24:56because they're calling me next, let
1:24:57me just leave the room because I'm going to stutter.
1:25:00That's a miserable life.
1:25:02And that's one of many things I did besides lying,
1:25:05besides being insecure, besides being immature,
1:25:07besides being fat, besides being one of the only Black kids
1:25:11in my school.
1:25:11There's a lot of things I had to overcome to gain confidence.
1:25:16And in doing so, a lot of that had to go.
1:25:20A lot of it.
1:25:21So I became the guy that became, once again, misunderstood.
1:25:24You only sleep four hours a day, two hours a day?
1:25:26Sometimes you don't sleep at all?
1:25:28Like, what's this, and what's this, and what's this?
1:25:31I know it's all important.
1:25:35I can't.
1:25:35Something's got to go.
1:25:36For me to get confidence, because confidence
1:25:39is the building block of where I'm trying to go,
1:25:41for me to gain confidence in myself,
1:25:44this fucked up kid has got to do a lot of fucked up shit
1:25:46to gain confidence.
1:25:48And along the way, the stutter went away.
1:25:51And I gained confidence.
1:25:52And now, my life is a little bit more--
1:25:56there is no balance.
1:25:59There is no balance.
1:26:01It's a little bit more what it should be for a lot of people.
1:26:05But there'll never be balance because confidence is something
1:26:07that you're constantly--
1:26:09confidence and belief you're building every day.
1:26:13And so something's got to give.
1:26:15And I'm willing to forego a lot of things
1:26:17to have that because I know if you
1:26:20want to give somebody kryptonite,
1:26:23take that shit away from them.
1:26:25So yeah, I don't sleep sometimes.
1:26:27And sometimes I don't eat the right way.
1:26:29And sometimes I don't do this and do that and whatever, man.
1:26:31But you put me in a room of 10,000 people any time
1:26:34of the day, and I'll walk in there thinking
1:26:36I'm the baddest motherfucker in here
1:26:38because I know what it took to be on this stage.
1:26:40And a lot of people would not do that.
1:26:42So that's what it takes.
1:26:44ANDREW HUBERMAN: There's a question
1:26:46I've been wanting to ask you since we started.
1:26:48And I thought about coming in here.
1:26:50And I've been thinking about in the weeks ahead of this.
1:26:52And I'm going to just come clean and say I don't exactly
1:26:54know how to ask the question.
1:26:56DAVID GOGGINS: Just ask it.
1:26:58ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's about relationships.
1:26:59DAVID GOGGINS: Oh, do it, man.
1:27:01ANDREW HUBERMAN: So I know in myself
1:27:05that my discipline is much higher when it's just me.
1:27:09But that's because I had certain things early on.
1:27:12But then I was a terrible student.
1:27:14Barely finished high school.
1:27:15But then when I got serious, I got serious.
1:27:16But I did that by staying away from everybody.
1:27:20And anyone's who's ever had a relationship of any kind,
1:27:25but in particular, romantic relationships,
1:27:27knows that, yes, you can derive tremendous support from those.
1:27:30Like, you got this, baby.
1:27:31You can go.
1:27:32And you're like, yeah.
1:27:33I got this.
1:27:34She said I got this.
1:27:35Feels great to finish something and share with someone,
1:27:38share a meal, get the hug.
1:27:40But there's another side to all of that
1:27:43that I'd like to learn more about from you,
1:27:45which is there's a warm body next to you
1:27:48in bed in the morning.
1:27:49You don't want to get up.
1:27:50They also have needs.
1:27:52You've got your mission that people sometimes
1:27:56need things from us.
1:27:58But also, oftentimes, the people that
1:28:00love us most, that truly love us and that want to support us,
1:28:04don't understand this thing.
1:28:07And they're the first people to tell us, like, listen.
1:28:12Take a day off.
1:28:13And then this whole cycle, at least in my head,
1:28:15goes off, like, you just want a vacation.
1:28:17And then it's almost like a paranoia.
1:28:19I'm not saying anything nice about myself right now.
1:28:21DAVID GOGGINS: All good, man.
1:28:22ANDREW HUBERMAN: Former girlfriends
1:28:23are going to be like, yeah.
1:28:24Like, they remember that.
1:28:25And so support of people close to you is critical.
1:28:29This could be friends.
1:28:30Could be romantic partners.
1:28:31Whatever.
1:28:31But they're also-- the knife cuts both ways.
1:28:35It can be the thing that can really
1:28:37undermine this thing that you're talking about because people
1:28:40that care about us also want to see us comfortable.
1:28:42They want to see us happy.
1:28:43They want to see us peaceful.
1:28:45They want to see us wake up from a great night's sleep.
1:28:47And they want things too.
1:28:49So how do you untangle that whole bit?
1:28:51DAVID GOGGINS: Well, it's funny, man.
1:28:53I'm unbalanced, but I'm mostly unbalanced
1:28:55towards the family side, which people don't get about me.
1:28:58I'll start being unbalanced.
1:28:59I get all my stuff in.
1:29:01But what I do is I make sure that my family has everything
1:29:04they need, everything they need, those who
1:29:08want to be part of my family.
1:29:10Some don't.
1:29:11Some family members don't want to be part of David Goggins.
1:29:14I get it.
1:29:14I got it.
1:29:15That's life.
1:29:16Those who are part of my family, I
1:29:20give them everything they need so they
1:29:22can leave me the fuck alone.
1:29:25I make sure you're happy as fuck because I got to go to work.
1:29:27And I don't mean smokejumping.
1:29:30I don't mean running.
1:29:32I mean all of it.
1:29:34It takes every--
1:29:35I can't have you in my fucking shit.
1:29:38I can't.
1:29:39So I know for me to have a family,
1:29:42I gotta make sure that you realize I'm going to give you
1:29:44everything you need.
1:29:44So when you start bitching at me,
1:29:46I'm going to say, look, hang on.
1:29:48I dedicated my life to give you everything you need.
1:29:51I need this time right here for me
1:29:54to be the best I can be because this journey started
1:29:56without anybody.
1:29:58And I make sure everybody knows that who comes in my life.
1:30:00I've been left-- think about it.
1:30:03I was left alone at a young age to figure this shit out.
1:30:09I figured it out for myself and have been very successful
1:30:13for myself.
1:30:14No one's going to come in here and fuck with my shit.
1:30:17That's why I make sure I will take care of whatever you need.
1:30:20Whatever you need from me, you got it.
1:30:22Money, house, my love, my support,
1:30:25I'm going to give you everything you need.
1:30:27That said, I do it the highest level possible.
1:30:31And I'm saying that with Jennifer in the next room.
1:30:33So please come here and say something
1:30:34if it's wrong, Jennifer.
1:30:35I don't give a fuck.
1:30:36Say what you got to say.
1:30:37So then when it's time for me to go to work,
1:30:40I expect you to do the same for me
1:30:43because it takes every bit of me to do what I have to do.
1:30:48So I make sure that I'm very unbalanced from my family
1:30:52so I can be exactly that unbalanced for myself.
1:30:56And that's how I do it.
1:30:58I let people know right up front,
1:31:00I'm not what you want in a man.
1:31:06I guarantee that.
1:31:07There's going to be a lot of late nights,
1:31:09a lot of early mornings, a lot of times
1:31:11where I got to be by myself thinking about the process that
1:31:14is next in my mind.
1:31:16I can't have aggravation.
1:31:17I can't have this.
1:31:18Can't have that.
1:31:18There's a lot of things.
1:31:19But I let them know up front.
1:31:21I'm very vocal about that.
1:31:23Sometimes relationships work for me.
1:31:25Sometimes they didn't.
1:31:27But that's who I am.
1:31:28One thing I did wrong in my life was I tried for so many years
1:31:32to please people.
1:31:35And I did it at the expense of myself.
1:31:40I was leaving a lot in the tank.
1:31:42And when you do that, you stop living.
1:31:45But the person in your life is happy as fuck
1:31:48because you're giving them everything they want.
1:31:50They have their-- their life is full.
1:31:53But you feel empty.
1:31:55And that's not a relationship to me.
1:31:58So for me, it's important that you
1:32:00know exactly who I am because this is what life made.
1:32:05And I'm not trying to change it because I just figured it out.
1:32:10So I'm not trying to compromise David Goggins.
1:32:13I would never, ever compromise David Goggins.
1:32:17That doesn't mean I won't give you what you need
1:32:19and what you want and what you desire.
1:32:22But I don't need money.
1:32:23I don't need fame.
1:32:24I don't need shit.
1:32:25So I give it all away.
1:32:28What I do need is to make sure that that willpower is worked
1:32:33on every fucking day and every night for the rest of my life
1:32:36because that's the one thing that's
1:32:38going to keep me feeding you, keeping you where you need
1:32:41to be, because once that willpower is gone,
1:32:44300-pound David Goggins, he may not look like it,
1:32:47but I will walk around with it.
1:32:51So the things that are important to you in life,
1:32:53you must do always.
1:32:55Or you're nobody.
1:32:57And that's how I handle relationships.
1:33:00ANDREW HUBERMAN: Amen to that.
1:33:01Something I could personally work on
1:33:03is that upfront, clear communication
1:33:06because it resonates that feeling of there's something
1:33:09inside that's not getting worked out that, when I'm on my own,
1:33:13it's a lot easier.
1:33:14But then, of course, wanting relationships and family,
1:33:17I think that's a healthy part of being human too.
1:33:19And obviously, you've worked it out.
1:33:20So I appreciate you sharing that.
1:33:22I don't think I've ever heard you
1:33:23talk about it that way before.
1:33:25DAVID GOGGINS: People are scared of that conversation
1:33:27with their wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend.
1:33:30But why are you scared of it?
1:33:33Why are you scared to tell a motherfucker, your wife,
1:33:36your husband, who you are, who you are, exactly who you are?
1:33:42And that was the problem I had-- that's a problem
1:33:44that a lot of us have in life.
1:33:46No one knows who you really are.
1:33:49No one knew who I really was.
1:33:52I went to a school where there were a lot of Black kids.
1:33:55A lot of Black kids didn't want to be in special ops.
1:33:58I never talked about special ops to Black kids.
1:34:01Why?
1:34:03I was wondering what--
1:34:04I'm not going to fit in.
1:34:07That's not what they do.
1:34:08A lot of Black kids don't do that kind of shit.
1:34:10So whatever I wanted to do, no one really
1:34:13knew the real me growing up because I never wanted anybody
1:34:16to know the real me.
1:34:17I was always afraid of what you might say
1:34:19or how you're going to feel or whatever.
1:34:21You got feelings.
1:34:24You have a life that you have to live.
1:34:26So it's important that whatever's on your mind,
1:34:29you let that person know.
1:34:30Therefore, you're giving them the option
1:34:32to be with you or not.
1:34:34This is who I am.
1:34:36If you don't like it, that's good, man.
1:34:37I got it.
1:34:38But this is David Goggins.
1:34:40So that honest conversation is very important, man,
1:34:43so everybody knows where they stand.
1:34:45That person may not be for you.
1:34:48And that's all good.
1:34:49ANDREW HUBERMAN: This world could
1:34:50use a lot more of that upfront, completely honest conversation.
1:34:53I feel like so much of the world's problems
1:34:56are because everyone's dancing around these issues.
1:34:59DAVID GOGGINS: It takes a lot.
1:34:59ANDREW HUBERMAN: Recently in the news,
1:35:00seeing people losing their job because they
1:35:02won't say something publicly.
1:35:03You can tell they kind of what it.
1:35:04It's like, people just, I think, deep down really
1:35:07crave the direct message.
1:35:08Like, what are you about?
1:35:10What are you not about?
1:35:10But I think now, everyone's afraid of getting canceled.
1:35:14It's a big deal, getting canceled, that people think,
1:35:17oh, I can't work if I am who I am.
1:35:19Or if I'm not pretending to be somebody else,
1:35:23then silence is considered agreement.
1:35:28There's all sorts of complicated stuff.
1:35:30And I do feel for the generation coming up
1:35:33because we didn't have social media and all of that.
1:35:36Again, just walled off from that.
1:35:38There's a real benefit from just not paying attention.
1:35:40DAVID GOGGINS: People love to lie.
1:35:42People love to lie.
1:35:43You know, I thought I was only a person--
1:35:45when I was growing up, I thought I
1:35:47was the only person that lied because I lived in a bubble.
1:35:49And people love to lie about who they're not.
1:35:53They love to lie about who they're not, dude.
1:35:55And that's, for me, the reason why I'm so vulnerable,
1:36:00and I'm so real and honest.
1:36:04Find somebody to come out and tell me
1:36:06I'm lying about my fucking life.
1:36:08And for me to come where I came from
1:36:10and have the resume I have now, you
1:36:12know the confidence you get?
1:36:14How I don't care who-- you're going to-- you're
1:36:17going to judge me?
1:36:18You're going to judge me?
1:36:19What have you done in your life?
1:36:20So me, being so honest and so upfront and so truthful,
1:36:25that came with me finally figuring out who I was,
1:36:30but also conquering David Goggins, the demons of David
1:36:34Goggins.
1:36:35Therefore, now, you're just an open book.
1:36:37You look at somebody, look them right in the eye.
1:36:39Tell me exactly who the fuck you are.
1:36:41You walk away.
1:36:42I'm good, bro, because I know exactly what this journey took
1:36:45to get here.
1:36:46And that gives you a fire and a passion that people
1:36:49can call you nigger, they can call you--
1:36:51if you're a lesbian or gay or bise-- call me
1:36:54whatever the fuck you want.
1:36:55If you put yourself in the fire and you come out
1:36:59every fucking day like this, brush it off, not scared
1:37:01to go back in there again, come on, man.
1:37:04Your truth is real.
1:37:06You come out every day, man, with a way
1:37:08of talking to people that people don't have because there's
1:37:11no truth behind them.
1:37:13And the truth is the starting line.
1:37:14When you sit down the ugly mirror and say, I'm this,
1:37:16I'm this, I'm this and this, you finally started your life.
1:37:19Maybe 40 years old.
1:37:22Maybe 40 years old, five, six kids, wife.
1:37:25But the second you look in that mirror and you say, I'm this,
1:37:28I'm this, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this, well, basically,
1:37:31I'm not this, I'm not this, I'm not this, I can't do this,
1:37:34I can't do this, I'm all these insecurities,
1:37:37your life finally started.
1:37:39And once you start that life, man, the truth
1:37:41comes out big time because you no longer care.
1:37:43So that's the problem.
1:37:44Most people just don't want to have that conversation
1:37:47to the point where they can go on stage and a million people
1:37:49and say, I'm all of this.
1:37:54And have a good day.
1:37:56See you.
1:37:57It's empowering.
1:37:59It's very empowering.
1:38:00ANDREW HUBERMAN: I feel like the way we're educated in school,
1:38:04but also outside of school, is we're trained, as human being,
1:38:07as these young brains, to try and figure out
1:38:09how to get positive feedback from other people.
1:38:11It's like we're little dogs.
1:38:14You have a bulldog.
1:38:15DAVID GOGGINS: That's right.
1:38:15ANDREW HUBERMAN: I had a bulldog.
1:38:17Saw the picture of your bulldog.
1:38:18She's great.
1:38:19DAVID GOGGINS: Charlie dog.
1:38:20ANDREW HUBERMAN: They're an amazing species.
1:38:21DAVID GOGGINS: They are.
1:38:22ANDREW HUBERMAN: I think of them economy of effort
1:38:25or amazing breed, excuse me.
1:38:26They're an amazing breed.
1:38:27Economy of effort.
1:38:28They don't do anything unless it's necessary.
1:38:31It's the exact opposite of everything we're talking about.
1:38:33It's kind of interesting.
1:38:34And they're kind of hedonists.
1:38:36Now, it is true that they'll die to protect you.
1:38:39DAVID GOGGINS: Oh, yeah.
1:38:40ANDREW HUBERMAN: And it's an instinct.
1:38:41I saw that with Costello.
1:38:42I'm sure that--
1:38:43DAVID GOGGINS: I saw it with Charlie.
1:38:43Yeah.
1:38:44ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's an instinct.
1:38:45But if they're not in that position,
1:38:48if there's no need to exert effort--
1:38:50DAVID GOGGINS: They're resting.
1:38:50ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.
1:38:51So your bulldog's resting for you.
1:38:53DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.
1:38:54Got it.
1:38:54ANDREW HUBERMAN: Exactly.
1:38:55So you don't need to rest because--
1:38:56DAVID GOGGINS: Active recovery Charlie.
1:38:58ANDREW HUBERMAN: Perfect.
1:38:58DAVID GOGGINS: That's it.
1:38:59ANDREW HUBERMAN: Perfect.
1:38:59That's going to be your answer from now on.
1:39:01People go, does he sleep?
1:39:02Does he rest?
1:39:02Go, no.
1:39:02He somehow worked it out so his bulldog does it for him.
1:39:05DAVID GOGGINS: Right.
1:39:06ANDREW HUBERMAN: But we're sort of
1:39:08indoctrinated into this way of being
1:39:10from a time that we're young, where, of course,
1:39:13praise feels good.
1:39:15Someone tells you, hey, I like that shirt, or good job today,
1:39:19or nicely done.
1:39:20Or for me, because growing up in a big pack of friends growing
1:39:24up, and I was never the greatest athlete, wasn't terrible,
1:39:27wasn't great, et cetera, like, a fist bump, or, like, feeling
1:39:30crewed up.
1:39:30And you're just like, yeah.
1:39:32But you've talked about this before in reference
1:39:34to the SEAL Teams.
1:39:36We both know a lot of people in that community.
1:39:38And the Teams component is a big part of it for a lot of people.
1:39:40And it's a wonderful thing.
1:39:43But there's a danger to that dopamine hit,
1:39:47for lack of a better way to put it,
1:39:49from we can only derive when it's coming from the outside.
1:39:55You're talking about being able to either say, good job,
1:39:59but also, just look to one's own personal history and say,
1:40:03I've done hard things.
1:40:05And I can do it again and again because I do it again and again
1:40:08and again.
1:40:08You're talking about parenting yourself, inspiring yourself,
1:40:15scaring yourself, all of that from the inside.
1:40:18So very different than the way we're
1:40:21raised, which is to figure out how to get the biscuit.
1:40:23DAVID GOGGINS: It's funny, man.
1:40:24People want to know how I'm always motivated.
1:40:29It's the unseen work, which you just said is a true statement.
1:40:32Those are false dopamine hits that people
1:40:34are giving you, man.
1:40:36There's no belief in that.
1:40:38These are teamwork dopamine-- like, I'm out
1:40:41running at 2 o'clock in the morning, 1
1:40:43o'clock in the morning in the gym, long sessions by myself.
1:40:48That's real.
1:40:50I'm able to extract dopamine, the good dopamine whenever
1:40:54I want.
1:40:55Man, I've trained 99% of my life alone.
1:41:01No one patted me on the back.
1:41:03I did all of the work alone.
1:41:07And while I'm still hard on myself, I know what I did.
1:41:11So whenever times get bad for me,
1:41:13people are all this, who's going to carry the boats and lo--
1:41:16that's real.
1:41:17I hate that people know me for that guy
1:41:20because that guy is not every fucking day.
1:41:23When they see me, they want that energy.
1:41:26That's not me every day.
1:41:27I can extract it immediately when I need to
1:41:30because when you train alone--
1:41:32and I lived alone for so many years in this misery.
1:41:35And you're able to get out by yourself.
1:41:38I can take myself to such a level of real passion
1:41:42and purpose.
1:41:43And the feeling I get is something
1:41:46I can't even explain by mys--
1:41:48I don't need anyone.
1:41:50That's why people come to me to motivate them.
1:41:52No one can motivate me.
1:41:55I have a resume full of fucking motivation
1:41:58that whenever I'm down, I'm like, oh hang on, motherfucker.
1:42:02Oh, you know the truth.
1:42:04You know the truth.
1:42:05You know the darkness of the fucking dungeons
1:42:07and the fucking demons that fly.
1:42:09And then from there, it's like, OK.
1:42:12You were there.
1:42:13You know this.
1:42:14There was no one there to pick up
1:42:15the rucksack, to pick up the boat, to pick up
1:42:17the log, to go in there.
1:42:19It was you.
1:42:20It was you.
1:42:20There was no pat on the fucking back at 300, at 275, at 250,
1:42:25at 220.
1:42:25No.
1:42:26That was you.
1:42:28So those things that come out of me,
1:42:30that extract from me in the darkness, people
1:42:33are looking for that pat on the back.
1:42:34Where is it?
1:42:35Oh, I don't need it because what I've done
1:42:40is in the fucking unseen work.
1:42:44I built Frankenstein.
1:42:47So whenever shit gets nasty, David Goggins
1:42:50goes, you had nobody anyway, motherfucker.
1:42:53So see how I'm talking to myself right now?
1:42:55That's me.
1:42:57That's shit fires me the fuck up.
1:42:59That shit makes me fucking nuts.
1:43:00You had nobody anyway, motherfucker.
1:43:03Look around you.
1:43:04There was no fucking team.
1:43:06It was you.
1:43:07There was no weight loss program or mom and dad waking you up,
1:43:11saying you can do it, you can be better, trying to build belief.
1:43:14You built belief when you had nothing.
1:43:17Rock bottom.
1:43:20You did that.
1:43:20So as times get hard for me, the truth comes out.
1:43:26And my truth is powerful as fuck.
1:43:29It's real.
1:43:31It's tangible.
1:43:32I feel it.
1:43:33It comes out of my brain as I speak about it.
1:43:36I'm reliving every single dark moment of my life to be here.
1:43:43So that is what people don't get.
1:43:46That is what motivates David Goggins is the unseen work.
1:43:50But everybody needs that pat on the back.
1:43:53They need that training partner.
1:43:54They need that accountability coach.
1:43:57I don't need that shit.
1:43:58And neither do they.
1:44:00But it's what we've trained ourselves
1:44:02to believe that we need.
1:44:03ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's almost like there's
1:44:05this pill on the shelf.
1:44:06I'm speaking in analogy.
1:44:08And we take it, and we get jazzed up.
1:44:11And we're like, yeah.
1:44:13But there's this other medicine cabinet behind there.
1:44:16And it's in us.
1:44:16You're saying the real medicine cabinet is inside.
1:44:19DAVID GOGGINS: Oh, yes.
1:44:20When you continue to overcome--
1:44:23and I had so many obstacles to overcome.
1:44:25So it's actually a benefit to me.
1:44:27But the benefit, it's not like a benefit like that.
1:44:29You have to have the courage and the patience
1:44:32to overcome and overcome.
1:44:34Before you know it, man, you have a whole medicine cabinet.
1:44:38But there's no medicine in the motherfucker.
1:44:40There's no pre-workout.
1:44:42I don't take none of that shit.
1:44:44All I got to do is flip my brain.
1:44:48Put my finger in there and say, OK, that's a good one.
1:44:51It's all I got to do, man.
1:44:52I got the Rolodex.
1:44:53I'm just like, go fuck yourself, Goggins.
1:44:55And oh, but you won.
1:44:58Let's do that one today.
1:44:59There's nothing I need.
1:45:02And this is the thing that people
1:45:03don't get about David Goggins.
1:45:05I can't teach it in a 1-minute video.
1:45:10We all have this ability to have our own medicine cabinet.
1:45:15But unless you go in there and put the medicine in there,
1:45:21it's always going to be fucking empty, man.
1:45:23You're always going to need the pre-workout.
1:45:25You're always going to need the--
1:45:26I don't drink coffee.
1:45:27I don't do ca--
1:45:28I don't do none of that.
1:45:28I don't need it.
1:45:29I can run for 70 hours, and I have before, no caffeine.
1:45:35I got all this wonderful shit that I overcame on my own,
1:45:40by myself, in the darkness, that, man, when it's cold,
1:45:44I'm hot.
1:45:46When it's hot--
1:45:48I can feed myself all the time.
1:45:52That's why when people say, man, why aren't you
1:45:54missing anything, I can't explain it to you, man.
1:45:58Can't explain it to you.
1:45:59You'll never understand.
1:46:01That's why I don't do all these podcasts, dude.
1:46:04I love you, man.
1:46:05That's why you-- my first book, you did a blurb for me.
1:46:09That's why I'm here.
1:46:10I love what you're doing for people, man.
1:46:12But I can't explain this.
1:46:15I can't.
1:46:15I can't explain this because people don't want to do this.
1:46:18They don't want to do this, man.
1:46:19But I don't know, man.
1:46:22I get jazzed up even talking about it,
1:46:23man, because so many people think my life is just so, oh
1:46:27god, his life is horrible.
1:46:29Don't follow him.
1:46:30He's crazy.
1:46:30Really?
1:46:31ANDREW HUBERMAN: But there are a good number of people,
1:46:34I would say, and that's an under-- that actually do.
1:46:36I think what I'm hearing today, and it's really sinking in, is
1:46:40that a great many people either partially or completely
1:46:43misunderstand you.
1:46:45DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.
1:46:46ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'll put myself in the partially category.
1:46:48DAVID GOGGINS: Big time.
1:46:49ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because I thought
1:46:50it was about just forward center of mass, carrot, carrot,
1:46:55carrot, carrot.
1:46:57But it's the stick.
1:46:58DAVID GOGGINS: It's the stick.
1:46:59ANDREW HUBERMAN: And it's being haunted.
1:47:00And you know, I do have examples from my own life, which is not
1:47:03what today is about, about being really afraid
1:47:06and then turning things around.
1:47:08My biggest fear is getting comfortable.
1:47:10I do not have as much of a stick-oriented approach.
1:47:14But today's conversation's changing the way I think.
1:47:18I'm not going to step away from this
1:47:19and think, OK, there are 25 neural circuits that
1:47:22can explain 10 of the things that David's talking about.
1:47:24And what I'm thinking about is the fact
1:47:27that everybody has a brain.
1:47:28They have a mind.
1:47:30Forget the brain.
1:47:31The brain's just the physical structure.
1:47:32But what that manifests, what that creates is the mind.
1:47:37And everybody has that.
1:47:39So I do believe that everyone has the capacity
1:47:42to do what you're talking about at some level.
1:47:46I also will be the first to confess
1:47:49that I think you are highly unusual.
1:47:51Let's just say maybe even n of 1, as we say in science.
1:47:56Sample size of one.
1:47:59Somebody who has created this process for themselves
1:48:01and keeps them in this-- themselves
1:48:03in this forward center of mass with the stick
1:48:06battering the back of their head all the time.
1:48:09Highly unusual.
1:48:12But this internal medicine cabinet
1:48:14that you're talking about building up,
1:48:15true confidence, not needing anything from the outside,
1:48:18I like to think that people want that.
1:48:23They want to be known.
1:48:24They're afraid.
1:48:26But that they want to be known for who they really are
1:48:29and that you're describing the path to do this.
1:48:31And I will say I'm immensely grateful that you're
1:48:34talking to us this way today about things
1:48:36that you've talked about before.
1:48:37But we're hitting it a little differently, I like to think.
1:48:40DAVID GOGGINS: Very differently.
1:48:41ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because what you're talking about
1:48:45is a process.
1:48:46It's verbs.
1:48:46It's all verbs.
1:48:47DAVID GOGGINS: All action.
1:48:49ANDREW HUBERMAN: And it's not about success.
1:48:51It's more, actually, about keeping
1:48:54that friction dialed to 10.
1:48:57And no energy drink, no supplement.
1:48:59People often misunderstand me.
1:49:00They think-- like, I'm big on people getting sunlight
1:49:03in the morning so they set their circadian rhythm
1:49:04and get better sleep and so they can-- et cetera.
1:49:06But then people always think-- they go straight
1:49:08to the supplements.
1:49:09What should I take?
1:49:10And then, of course, people think
1:49:11I'm all about supplements.
1:49:12And supplements are one piece for me.
1:49:14But it's like tiny fraction compared to the doing,
1:49:17the do's and don'ts.
1:49:18DAVID GOGGINS: That's why I didn't
1:49:19want to talk about that today.
1:49:20That's why I'm glad we're talking about this.
1:49:22This is it.
1:49:23This is it.
1:49:24Like, the brain is the most powerful weapon in the world.
1:49:27And it's crazy how a kid that wasn't real smart,
1:49:33I was forced to go only internal.
1:49:37External had to go away.
1:49:39The external world had to go away.
1:49:41In living so deep inside myself, it was me in this brain
1:49:46and figuring out how this thing works.
1:49:48And so many people are doing exactly that, the supplements,
1:49:54the this, the that.
1:49:55And I agree, it helps.
1:49:58But once you figure out your brain,
1:50:03you become unstoppable to almost anything.
1:50:07Yeah, you can't beat death.
1:50:09You can't whatever, whatever.
1:50:10Your brain is amazing.
1:50:12Once you feed it the right conversation, the right mental
1:50:17nutrients, the right mental supplements,
1:50:21the right internal dialogue at the right time
1:50:25with the right hit, with the right proof of what you've
1:50:29done in the past, and you send that right
1:50:32to the right circuit, dude, you're a fucking beast.
1:50:36A beast.
1:50:37But once again, you just can't read about it.
1:50:43You can't sit back and be a theorist.
1:50:46You have to be a fucking practitioner.
1:50:49And in that practice is where that becomes proof-positive
1:50:53of what I'm saying.
1:50:54It's like, god, David Goggins is blowing my mind.
1:50:58What is this?
1:50:59He's not crazy.
1:51:00And so many people, a lot of people,
1:51:09have listened to me the right way.
1:51:10And they come back, and they're like, I'm totally on board.
1:51:14It happened.
1:51:16It happened.
1:51:16I'm like, it'll keep going, man, if you keep doing it.
1:51:20But that is it, man.
1:51:21There's no sun.
1:51:24There's no glory.
1:51:25There's no carrot.
1:51:27There's no victory.
1:51:29But there is all of it in one.
1:51:30I just can't explain it real well to people, man.
1:51:32But what you get the other end is something
1:51:36that you're always found.
1:51:39You're never lost anymore.
1:51:41Doesn't mean the journey is easy.
1:51:43Doesn't get any easier.
1:51:44But you're always found.
1:51:46ANDREW HUBERMAN: I love that.
1:51:47I just want to hover on that for a sec
1:51:49the same way we hovered on haunted and the stick.
1:51:53I think people feel lost.
1:51:55I've certainly felt lost at times in my life, many times.
1:51:59And yeah, there's that thing.
1:52:01I don't think there's a neuroscience or a psychology
1:52:04term for it.
1:52:04Someone will put it in the comments and say, oh yeah,
1:52:06that's what so-and-so said.
1:52:08But like you said, we're not trying to be theoretical here.
1:52:10We're trying to be practical.
1:52:11The business of finding yourself and knowing, oh.
1:52:16But it's sort of like I'm safe because I'm in danger,
1:52:20and I've been in danger before, and I got myself out.
1:52:23It always seems to come back to verbs.
1:52:25Again, I don't have a language for this.
1:52:27For once, I'm lost for words.
1:52:29There's like-- it's about a process, the algorithm.
1:52:33And the reason-- here, I'm just kind of trying to make sure
1:52:36I'm understanding things correctly.
1:52:38One of the reasons why it must be uncomfortable
1:52:40for you to be who you are publicly
1:52:42is because people want to focus on the running or the swearing.
1:52:46And by the way, the swearing is welcome.
1:52:49I'll tell you, I came up through laboratories
1:52:51where all three people I worked for swore a lot.
1:52:56But there was one rule.
1:52:58I couldn't swear at people.
1:52:59So my graduate advisor, brilliant woman,
1:53:02unfortunately, she died early, they all died early--
1:53:05I'm the common denominator.
1:53:07I had that internalized for a long time.
1:53:08Anyway, she said, but if you swear at people, you're out.
1:53:12But you can swear as much as you want.
1:53:13So that's the rule I have.
1:53:15It's like, you can swear as much as you want.
1:53:16Just don't swear at people.
1:53:17And if you swear at people, better be ready to fight.
1:53:20Definitely not going to fight you.
1:53:21So you can swear at me, get away with it.
1:53:22But the fact of the matter is that it must
1:53:25be frustrating that people--
1:53:27because I know people go, oh, it's
1:53:29all about supplements and ice baths.
1:53:31Listen, I like supplements.
1:53:32I love supplements and ice baths.
1:53:33But that's not the full picture.
1:53:34It's just a gravitational pull.
1:53:36It's the swearing.
1:53:37It's the running.
1:53:38It's his feet that are all messed up.
1:53:40It's the fact that he got a Triton.
1:53:42He's a SEAL guy.
1:53:44Talk about that too.
1:53:46And there's a gravitational pull for people.
1:53:49And they're missing-- that's the tip of the iceberg,
1:53:53is what I'm realizing.
1:53:53I'm realizing that today thanks to the way
1:53:56you're phrasing things because the bigger vessel
1:53:58is all in here.
1:53:59And as you said, how do you put that in a book?
1:54:01DAVID GOGGINS: It's impossible.
1:54:03ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because it's highly individual.
1:54:04You do it your way.
1:54:05And you're saying, everyone needs
1:54:07to go figure out how to do it their way for them.
1:54:09DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.
1:54:10And the thing about being misunderstood,
1:54:13it's very frustrating, more than I can even imagine.
1:54:17I can't even express how frustrating
1:54:19it is when the cussing and everything comes
1:54:24from a place of real.
1:54:27I can't explain what I do without it.
1:54:31The passion comes out of me.
1:54:32It's almost like speaking in tongues because when you put
1:54:35that much work-- and people go, oh yeah,
1:54:37there's been this basketball player, this football player,
1:54:40this--
1:54:42dude.
1:54:44No.
1:54:45No.
1:54:46Everything, everything is work.
1:54:51Everything.
1:54:51And people don't believe it.
1:54:53So when I speak, the motherfucker and the fuck
1:54:59and the shit, that is what it took for me,
1:55:05what it takes for me, the anger, the passion, the jaw-dropping--
1:55:15just it takes that because I'm not that.
1:55:20This is how I look at it, man.
1:55:23What built this guy?
1:55:25Let's imagine being in the coldest
1:55:26water you can possibly take.
1:55:28I always go back to Hell Week with this.
1:55:30I hated that water.
1:55:32Hated it.
1:55:34You're sitting there locked arms, and you're in the water
1:55:36all the time.
1:55:37And they're bringing you in and out of the water,
1:55:39in and out of the water.
1:55:42When you have this dialogue in your head,
1:55:44and these people are judging me off a freaking 1-minute video,
1:55:49and you're constantly your whole life,
1:55:51when you figured it out at 24, that I got to--
1:55:54I just got to, just fucking got to,
1:55:57and this is just going to suck.
1:55:58Every day it's going to suck.
1:56:00And live like that to be better.
1:56:03And I put it this way.
1:56:04I'm in the water.
1:56:05The water is going over my head, the Pacific Ocean.
1:56:07It's freezing.
1:56:09February.
1:56:10Cold as shit.
1:56:11Been through three Hell Weeks.
1:56:15For you to constantly win, win, win,
1:56:19when this voice over here, the real you,
1:56:22is saying get the fuck out of here, go, you're nobody.
1:56:27You've always been nobody.
1:56:29And it's true.
1:56:31People don't hear that.
1:56:33That's a true voice.
1:56:34That's a real reality of David Goggins at 24 years old.
1:56:39It's not a false reality.
1:56:41And then you had to create another voice over here that
1:56:46is saying, you're better than that other voice.
1:56:48And you're in the freezing cold water
1:56:51that both voices don't want to fucking be in.
1:56:56But you win.
1:56:59Then goes from the water to the studying
1:57:02to the running to the losing weight
1:57:04to how you eat to how you function as a man.
1:57:06Every day of your life, you're winning these battles.
1:57:10And then I have normal people who only have one voice.
1:57:16Never created the second voice.
1:57:18The winning voice is the second voice.
1:57:19They have one voice.
1:57:22And that's just, I'm a piece of shit.
1:57:25And that's all they hear.
1:57:28And then they judge people like me
1:57:31who are out here trying to be better.
1:57:35It's something that I can never really--
1:57:39it's a frustrating thing for me because I
1:57:43know the majority of people.
1:57:45I know what goes on in the brain because I studied the mind
1:57:48more than almost-- more than you because I'm a practitioner.
1:57:53So for you to be a piece of shit and come out of that,
1:57:56you don't just come out of it.
1:57:58You spend decades studying your mind and the human mind
1:58:05on how it functions in good environments, bad environments,
1:58:09stressful environments, patient environments.
1:58:12You study it all because you had to put all this
1:58:14together to create the mind to become successful.
1:58:18So I had to-- it wasn't like God blessed me with this brain.
1:58:22I had to create a mind.
1:58:24And so in doing so, I figured out
1:58:26every piece of shit human being in the world
1:58:28because that's what I was going off of for myself.
1:58:32So I know why you go on Instagram.
1:58:34I know why you-- because you just have the time.
1:58:39You have the time because you don't
1:58:42want to put that time into bettering oneself.
1:58:46So I know why I'm misunderstood.
1:58:49I'm misunderstood by people who have plenty of time
1:58:53on their hands to misunderstand me because they are exactly
1:58:56where I once was, which is a low-life, lazy piece of shit.
1:59:01And it's the harsh reality of people who troll you,
1:59:04who go after you.
1:59:06They have nothing better to do with their lives.
1:59:09It's not some after school special.
1:59:11It's the truth.
1:59:12But I once was that way.
1:59:15I know where it all comes from.
1:59:17That's why it's frustrating to me
1:59:18now because I'm not so frustrated at the fact
1:59:20that I'm being trolled.
1:59:22I'm frustrated by the fact that you
1:59:23don't have the courage, the courage
1:59:26to try to be somebody better than what you're not.
1:59:29And that's the frustrating part.
1:59:31ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's interesting
1:59:33because earlier, we were talking about relationships.
1:59:36And you said, in a very candid way,
1:59:39and I really appreciate you sharing that,
1:59:41that you make sure that the people close
1:59:42to you, your family, has everything they need
1:59:44and that they also understand that you're
1:59:46going to take what you need to continue to build you period.
1:59:49DAVID GOGGINS: Period.
1:59:50ANDREW HUBERMAN: In some ways, it
1:59:53seems you've also included the general public in that family.
1:59:57You're saying, listen, I'm going to give you what you need.
2:00:01I'm going to give you as much of myself as I can,
2:00:03except I'm going to stop right at the line
2:00:06that if I were to cross it is going
2:00:08to prevent me from continuing to build myself.
2:00:11And by the way, this relationship
2:00:13only exists because I don't cross that line.
2:00:17And I think as much as there are detractors out there
2:00:21or people that try--
2:00:23I mean, whatever they're doing is pretty feeble, in my mind.
2:00:26I mean, it's like cap gun fire, it that.
2:00:29DAVID GOGGINS: Very feeble.
2:00:32ANDREW HUBERMAN: So many of us, men and women, old and young,
2:00:37hear something and feel something in your message.
2:00:41Like, yeah, it seems kind of crazy.
2:00:43Gosh.
2:00:44Doesn't he ever just relax?
2:00:46What about his sleep?
2:00:47Look at his feet.
2:00:48He's going to-- he's going to injure himself.
2:00:50Listen, I'll be very direct.
2:00:51I got friends who were in the Teams who just go, what's he
2:00:54going to do when he can't run?
2:00:55And I know the answer is keep running.
2:00:57DAVID GOGGINS: That's right.
2:00:58ANDREW HUBERMAN: But it's more comfortable
2:01:00for people, even high achievers--
2:01:02DAVID GOGGINS: Especially high achievers.
2:01:04ANDREW HUBERMAN: --to believe that if you
2:01:05took one thing away, that it would all go away.
2:01:07It's absolutely clear that's not the case with you.
2:01:10I'm 100% convinced.
2:01:12I just know that because we're talking about this.
2:01:14DAVID GOGGINS: Do you know how many times
2:01:14I haven't been able to run?
2:01:16Two heart surgeries.
2:01:17Multiple knee surgeries.
2:01:18And after every knee surgery, they said,
2:01:20you're not going to run again.
2:01:22And I'm fine with that.
2:01:24There's no running up here, bro.
2:01:26None.
2:01:27This was what it was all about.
2:01:29That's what they lost.
2:01:30What if you can't run?
2:01:31Give a fuck.
2:01:33It was never about running.
2:01:35Why do you think I run?
2:01:37It's the worst thing.
2:01:39I hate doing it more than anything.
2:01:43Hence the willpower.
2:01:44ANDREW HUBERMAN: Right.
2:01:45Your anterior mid-cingulate cortex
2:01:46DAVID GOGGINS: Hence the willpower.
2:01:47ANDREW HUBERMAN: --would start to regress
2:01:49if you loved running.
2:01:50DAVID GOGGINS: Think about it.
2:01:51Every day, I wake up.
2:01:53I don't just run a mile, two miles.
2:01:56It's the one thing I hate the most to do.
2:02:00And I do it like I love it.
2:02:03250, 260, 300-mile runs at one time.
2:02:08No sleep.
2:02:09And every step, when I get to the-- think about this.
2:02:11I get to the fucking start line cussing at Jennifer.
2:02:16Why the fuck am I here?
2:02:17I hate this shit.
2:02:21After 70-some hours of running, every fucking
2:02:24question I ever had is answered.
2:02:27Every question I had is answered.
2:02:29I capped success.
2:02:33People go, what do you mean, you capped success?
2:02:37For me to be who I am--
2:02:41so when I go smokejump, I smoke jump three to four months out
2:02:47of the year, sometimes five.
2:02:48ANDREW HUBERMAN: Could you, just for those
2:02:50that aren't educated about-- just
2:02:52give us a brief description of what smokejumping entails.
2:02:55DAVID GOGGINS: So basically, you jump into fires.
2:02:59Not into them, but you jump by fires that people can't get to.
2:03:02ANDREW HUBERMAN: So out of planes and helicopters.
2:03:04DAVID GOGGINS: Right, out of planes.
2:03:06I parachute.
2:03:07It's all parachuting.
2:03:08So you parachute out of airplanes.
2:03:10And then you fight the fire, you and sometimes four other guys
2:03:13or maybe eight other guys, guys and gals.
2:03:15And you're putting this fire out.
2:03:18So I lose millions of dollars every summer to do this.
2:03:23It blows people's minds.
2:03:24Why the hell are you doing this?
2:03:25ANDREW HUBERMAN: And you're breathing soot.
2:03:27DAVID GOGGINS: I'm breathing soot.
2:03:28Knees are jacked up.
2:03:29Hitting the ground.
2:03:30Hurting.
2:03:31Whatever.
2:03:32Talking to normal people, they'll never get it,
2:03:34so I don't even explain it to them.
2:03:37But this is why-- this is why I call it capped success.
2:03:40I'm talking financial success.
2:03:42For me to continue having that willpower, the second I just
2:03:48become a speaking monkey and travel around
2:03:52and speaking gigs 12 months out of the year,
2:03:54put camps on, do this, put on lectures, get supplement lines
2:03:59and do this and write more books and shit,
2:04:01I've ruined the exact thing I worked on my entire life.
2:04:08And while I didn't know it until the day,
2:04:10but something always told me, this
2:04:13is a very, very, very perishable skill, this willpower
2:04:17that you have, because I do have a willpower that I have never
2:04:20seen in anybody in my life.
2:04:22It is a haunting force that just keeps me going.
2:04:25And I know that that is my strength.
2:04:28If you have that-- so that's worth every dime I've ever
2:04:33made in my life is the fact I can look a man in the eye
2:04:37finally and have a real conversation
2:04:39without going like this because I'm lying,
2:04:42or I'm a piece of shit.
2:04:43Or I know-- you know how a person--
2:04:45and so many people do this shit.
2:04:47They're talking to you on who they want to be.
2:04:51They're lying to you.
2:04:54And they walk away--
2:04:55I've done it so many times.
2:04:56You walk away like, god, man.
2:04:57If I could just tell them the truth.
2:04:59Why the hell can't I just tell him the truth?
2:05:03Know how good it feels for me now
2:05:04to look at you in your eye and every man
2:05:08I see because women won't get this.
2:05:10Women will not get this.
2:05:13Man to man, that man shit, when you
2:05:15look another man in the eye, and you
2:05:17know that everything you're fucking saying is real,
2:05:19and it comes from a real working place, something
2:05:22that you earned, it's the best feeling in the world.
2:05:25ANDREW HUBERMAN: You can say that actually happened.
2:05:27Like, I know with certainty what I'm saying actually happened.
2:05:30DAVID GOGGINS: Actually happened.
2:05:31Who I am and who I say I am, I am.
2:05:34No more lies.
2:05:36No more skirting the truth.
2:05:38No more bullshit.
2:05:39And that is worth every dime I've ever made in my life.
2:05:43And I swear to God on that.
2:05:47Every dime I've ever made in my life, building who I built,
2:05:51so I capped success because I know
2:05:54that if I ever go 12 months out of the year
2:05:58and don't put several-- every day, I'm going at it.
2:06:01But several months out of the year,
2:06:03I go right back to ground zero, which means
2:06:06I'm just fucking David Goggins.
2:06:09No Goggins.
2:06:10No carry boats, fucking logs bullshit.
2:06:13It's just pick up that fucking Pulaski and dig.
2:06:17Hey, get that fucking pump.
2:06:20Walk down a mile.
2:06:21Put it in the fucking water.
2:06:22Mosquitoes beating-- you're just David Goggins.
2:06:25You're nobody because that's where my growth is.
2:06:28That's where my willpower comes from.
2:06:31And that's where it stays.
2:06:32That's why when I talk to you now-- and can't nobody
2:06:35talk like this, dude.
2:06:36People don't talk with this kind of passion
2:06:38because it ain't there.
2:06:39It ain't there.
2:06:40They're regurgitating some shit from 30 fucking years ago.
2:06:44I'm regurgitating shit from an hour ago.
2:06:47Hour ago.
2:06:49Come on, man.
2:06:49It's just be real.
2:06:53And I can't be on these podcasts.
2:06:55I can't talk to anybody without being real.
2:06:57I'll go away.
2:06:59I'll just go away because I can't give you
2:07:02what I want to give you.
2:07:05ANDREW HUBERMAN: You said perishable skill.
2:07:07I think that's another set of words
2:07:09I want to highlight because skill implies behavior.
2:07:12And when we were just talking a second ago
2:07:14about the deep, true bedrock sense of confidence that
2:07:19comes from looking someone in the eye
2:07:21and telling somebody something that you absolutely
2:07:23know it's true because it happened,
2:07:25you're talking about actions.
2:07:27Not talking about perceptions.
2:07:29You're not talking about what you believe happened.
2:07:32You know it happened.
2:07:33And there's something really concrete about actions.
2:07:35I mean, that's what's so interesting is
2:07:37we're talking about the mind.
2:07:38But actions are the manifestation of the mind.
2:07:42And the stuff that just stays in here, people die with that.
2:07:47It doesn't go anywhere.
2:07:49Long ago, somebody said--
2:07:51I forget what the context was.
2:07:52It was a neuroscientist.
2:07:53He said, most emotions, they're just emotions.
2:07:57They're just in there.
2:07:58You don't have to do anything with them.
2:08:00And I think certain emotions you want to do something with.
2:08:03But I think people forget this.
2:08:04They feel miserable, like they're
2:08:05going to dissolve into a puddle of their own tears.
2:08:07No one ever died from an emotion.
2:08:09But they feel-- they overwhelm us as if it's a tidal wave.
2:08:13It's going to pull us under and drown us.
2:08:15It's so interesting to me because I think what people--
2:08:18listen, you have a gravitational pull.
2:08:20People can feel the energy.
2:08:22I think, yes, you're either completely badly
2:08:26or partially understood.
2:08:27There's only one guy on the planet
2:08:29that truly understands you.
2:08:30I think there's one woman, Jennifer,
2:08:32who probably understands you as much as anyone's going to.
2:08:34And then the rest of us are kind of grasping,
2:08:36trying to figure it out.
2:08:38But you're saying, go inward.
2:08:40So first, go inward.
2:08:43And then it's actions.
2:08:45Inward and actions.
2:08:46Now, the inward piece is something
2:08:47I'd like to just spend a little bit of time on because there
2:08:50are a couple of characters from history, people that
2:08:52were in concentration camps.
2:08:53Nelson Mandela.
2:08:55I mean, I'm not sure he had Instagram in there.
2:08:57I'm pretty sure he didn't.
2:08:58And I don't think there was anyone coaching him on,
2:09:01hey, you're going to get out someday.
2:09:02And actually, you're going to lead an entire country.
2:09:05I'm pretty sure that's not how it worked.
2:09:07He had to find it here.
2:09:08He had to find it between his ears.
2:09:10And there are other examples.
2:09:12But that's an important one.
2:09:14So the process of going inward, does it, for you--
2:09:19and here, I will ask for suggestions
2:09:21because I think people want--
2:09:22there are those of us who want to build this skill.
2:09:27Wall yourself off.
2:09:29Phone off for big portions of the day, perhaps.
2:09:34Texting off.
2:09:36The requests, the this, the that.
2:09:40Anyone that knows you knows that-- we've
2:09:42communicated a few texts, but most of it
2:09:44comes through a filter.
2:09:45She's great.
2:09:46She knows you.
2:09:47And she knows how to protect your time.
2:09:49DAVID GOGGINS: And that hurts people's feelings.
2:09:50People get mad about that.
2:09:51ANDREW HUBERMAN: Hey, God bless--
2:09:52God bless you, Jennifer.
2:09:58Cutting oneself off, when you're in there,
2:10:01you say it's just you.
2:10:05And the voices that come up are not pleasant.
2:10:10And then at some point, it converts to action.
2:10:14OK.
2:10:17What is the process of picking the action?
2:10:19That's the piece that I feel like there's,
2:10:21like, a bridge to build here, if you can, if you would.
2:10:25DAVID GOGGINS: So the action being, like, what's next?
2:10:27ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, so when you
2:10:29go to sleep at night, when that happens,
2:10:32you know what you're going to do the next day?
2:10:34It's pre-planned?
2:10:34DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.
2:10:35ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.
2:10:35DAVID GOGGINS: Yes.
2:10:36It's always the same thing.
2:10:37ANDREW HUBERMAN: You're not building it on the fly.
2:10:39DAVID GOGGINS: No.
2:10:39Nothing's on the fly.
2:10:41So how it works internally for me is I'll
2:10:45put it exactly how it is.
2:10:47I'm an artist.
2:10:49And every day, I'm painting Mona Lisa.
2:10:54Every day.
2:10:55And but it's a different one.
2:10:56It's not the same painting.
2:10:58So every day I wake up, even though I'll do the same thing,
2:11:00it takes a different way to get there.
2:11:02So every day, in my mind, I'm going through my mind.
2:11:04I'm just like-- and a good painter will not just paint.
2:11:11He needs to create.
2:11:12And you can't create with phones and everything
2:11:15going around you.
2:11:16So you got to block yourself off.
2:11:18You only do two podcasts in a year.
2:11:21You block yourself off.
2:11:22And you're painting this thing inside.
2:11:25And you're going through all these different colors
2:11:27of paint and everything else.
2:11:29And you can only figure out the right painting
2:11:32if you spend the correct amount of time in your brain.
2:11:35So every single day, I'm literally
2:11:37going through my mind, and I'm painting.
2:11:39I'm creating this masterpiece.
2:11:42And the masterpiece is always myself.
2:11:44And but to do that, you cannot have any distractions
2:11:48because if you're talking to an artist and he's trying to think
2:11:51about the next painting, he can't.
2:11:54It's impossible to listen to you and listen
2:11:57to what your mind and body are telling you we must do.
2:12:01Because people don't do enough of.
2:12:02They don't do any of it.
2:12:05They don't have passion.
2:12:06They lack passion, drive, determination
2:12:08because you haven't spent time with yourself.
2:12:11Your mind will tell you what is next.
2:12:14But you haven't spent the time to go,
2:12:18all right, let me just figure this out.
2:12:23You're looking for let me Google this, and let me Google that,
2:12:27and let me-- you're not going to find it there
2:12:29because there's billions of people in this world.
2:12:35And they're all supposed to be individuals.
2:12:39But we have a pack mentality.
2:12:42That's why you're so fucking lost.
2:12:44Why am I so unique?
2:12:48I'm being exactly what the fuck I was supposed to be.
2:12:50I ain't follow shit.
2:12:52And when I did follow shit, I was like everybody else.
2:12:55The second I said, OK, man, hang on, dude, you don't like this,
2:12:59you don't like this, you don't like this, who are you,
2:13:03David Goggins?
2:13:04Who are you supposed to be?
2:13:07Miraculously, all these things just--
2:13:10I couldn't even-- the list of shit I had to do, just, wham.
2:13:15It's like, fuck.
2:13:16OK.
2:13:17Wow.
2:13:18Once you sit down with yourself and say, OK, I
2:13:19don't want to be like Michael Jordan or Jim Brown--
2:13:22they're both born on my birthday.
2:13:23So I looked at their birthday.
2:13:24I said, oh, maybe I can be one of the--
2:13:26I can't.
2:13:27I'm going to be David fucking Goggins.
2:13:31And that looks like this.
2:13:34It just came.
2:13:36Everything flooded.
2:13:37So every single day of my life, there's
2:13:41a different thing that comes up that I have to do.
2:13:44But no one knows what to do because everybody else is
2:13:46following steps.
2:13:49Like the Republican and Democratic parties.
2:13:51I'm not political--
2:13:52ANDREW HUBERMAN: Neither am I.
2:13:53DAVID GOGGINS: --at all for this reason.
2:13:55Republicans are going to vote Republican.
2:13:59Democrats are going to vote Democrat.
2:14:02You're not even a human fucking being, bro.
2:14:05No way all you fuckers agree with all the same fucking shit.
2:14:09And I know I don't.
2:14:10So once you figure out yourself and who you are,
2:14:14all the answers come.
2:14:16So every night, a different painting is being painted.
2:14:20And it's a beautiful painting for myself.
2:14:22I'm like, OK.
2:14:23That's it.
2:14:23It may look the same to most motherfuckers.
2:14:26But the end result is very fucking different.
2:14:29That's why my-- if you look at what I've done in 49 years,
2:14:34it's more than most people will ever do in their life
2:14:36because they were a race car driver.
2:14:39And that's what they did.
2:14:41They drove a fucking car.
2:14:42It's great.
2:14:45I was all kind of shit because that's exactly what
2:14:49the painting was saying to do.
2:14:50It's what the mind was saying to do.
2:14:52Wasn't saying just drive a car, so then that race car driver
2:14:54didn't know what the fuck to do.
2:14:55He retires from being a race car driver, and they're lost.
2:14:59People go, how are you still--
2:15:01I don't get it.
2:15:03Dude, you're never going to fill your list.
2:15:06But you never found your list because it never
2:15:09was presented in front of you because your head was
2:15:11cluttered with shit because you never just stopped
2:15:15for lots of minutes, lots of years, and just said,
2:15:20all right, it's me and you.
2:15:22Let it go.
2:15:23And it just-- bam.
2:15:25It's right there.
2:15:26It's right there.
2:15:27ANDREW HUBERMAN: I'm not a psychologist,
2:15:29as I mentioned before.
2:15:32But I'm going to venture a hypothesis here.
2:15:37I think that you've mastered the process of internal dialogue.
2:15:44But when I say dialogue, I think most people think, oh,
2:15:47the inner voice, the chatter.
2:15:50But that's just one half of a dialogue.
2:15:52A dialogue is a two-way street.
2:15:55So I completely agree because I know from experience
2:15:59that when we go inward, oftentimes, we hear things,
2:16:01if we're really honest with ourselves, it's like, oh no,
2:16:03I don't want to think about that.
2:16:05No.
2:16:05And then we start looking outward.
2:16:07Or we start trying to shift our attention or distract.
2:16:11And there are a million reasons that
2:16:13are handed to us, excuses, and seemingly good justifications
2:16:17to be able to do that.
2:16:19But dialogue is a two-way street.
2:16:21And it hit me while you were just
2:16:22saying what you were saying, I was
2:16:24paying very close attention.
2:16:25And I realized David Goggins is talking about the voice that
2:16:31comes up, including the terrible stuff that no one wants
2:16:34to hear about themselves from themselves.
2:16:36But then he's also got the dialogue down where
2:16:39he knows the counter voice.
2:16:41He goes, yeah, you're right.
2:16:42And so I'm going to do this.
2:16:43Or maybe no, remember this.
2:16:47You're in a dialogue, a two-way dialogue in there, not
2:16:51a one-way chatter dialogue.
2:16:53There are books written by famous psychologists
2:16:55about chatter, trying to shift your internal narrative.
2:16:58You're like, bring the internal--
2:17:00the internal narrative, that's what going inward is about.
2:17:03But it's not one voice.
2:17:05Again, there's a hypothesis.
2:17:06And I'm not claiming to be all-knowing.
2:17:07Lord knows I'm not all-knowing.
2:17:10But you've mastered the dialogue.
2:17:12And if there are three voices, strong, medium, and weak,
2:17:16in there, you're like, let's all come to the table.
2:17:19So you've got a symphony of voices in there
2:17:22that are all you, that you know to be you.
2:17:24And you know how to have those convers-- you're not
2:17:27afraid to be in those conversations.
2:17:28And then you know what the outcome of that committee
2:17:32decision is, and you put it into real-world action.
2:17:35And the world only sees the action.
2:17:37DAVID GOGGINS: That's it.
2:17:38ANDREW HUBERMAN: And only you can
2:17:40know your internal dialogue.
2:17:42And only I can know my internal dialogue.
2:17:44And the only way to, quote unquote, "know it"
2:17:46is to spend a hell a lot of time there.
2:17:48DAVID GOGGINS: That's right.
2:17:49ANDREW HUBERMAN: OK.
2:17:50DAVID GOGGINS: A lifetime.
2:17:51ANDREW HUBERMAN: Got it.
2:17:51DAVID GOGGINS: A lifetime.
2:17:52Like, think about it.
2:17:55For me to be sitting here in front of you,
2:17:58you're not going to call 300-pound Ecolab
2:18:01guy to come sit here.
2:18:03You might.
2:18:03I don't know.
2:18:04Maybe.
2:18:04ANDREW HUBERMAN: Probably not.
2:18:05DAVID GOGGINS: Probably not.
2:18:06Think about this.
2:18:09What we teach people is kind, kindness to yourself.
2:18:16Do you think if I taught myself kindness--
2:18:19and I agree with it.
2:18:20God, so many people-- so many people take me out of context,
2:18:22it's ridiculous.
2:18:24Take it however the fuck you want to take it.
2:18:26When I was 300 pounds, where do you
2:18:30think that conversation would that got me
2:18:32if I spoke kindness to myself?
2:18:33I'll tell you where it gets me.
2:18:35Right back to 7-Eleven with another box of mini chocolate
2:18:38donuts and a chocolate milkshake.
2:18:41That's the one voice.
2:18:44That's the one voice that most of us have
2:18:47that you're talking about.
2:18:48If you don't have a conversation in there, the other voice
2:18:51that you create that says, OK, how does this look?
2:18:56Looks very ugly.
2:18:58That kind conversation for me went away a long time ago,
2:19:02which is why the dialogue is now what you see.
2:19:05A lot of action.
2:19:07Because most people have inaction because there's
2:19:11one person talking.
2:19:12And that one person is always leading you
2:19:14down the same path, the path that
2:19:16makes you feel very comfortable and happy with yourself.
2:19:22The second you create the other voice, there's conflict.
2:19:25Just battles.
2:19:26Just wars.
2:19:28Just defeat.
2:19:30One thing I learned, and I taught myself this,
2:19:32and people go, I don't understand what you're saying,
2:19:34I'm going to try to break it down real quick.
2:19:37I didn't teach myself victory first.
2:19:41I taught myself failure.
2:19:43I taught myself how to fail.
2:19:47And people like, that's so depressing.
2:19:50Is it?
2:19:50When you're 300 pounds and you can't read and write
2:19:53and you're fucked up, you know how many times
2:19:55you're going to fucking fail on that process?
2:19:58So if you don't know how to fail, there is no victory.
2:20:02I never talked about winning because I
2:20:04knew the path to winning was going
2:20:08to be years of failing first.
2:20:10So I taught myself how to fail properly.
2:20:14No one teaches you how to fucking fail.
2:20:18But if you're going out for insurmountable fucking
2:20:21odds that make absolutely no fucking sense,
2:20:24a Black kid that can't swim, 300 pounds--
2:20:26going to be a Navy SEAL.
2:20:28OK.
2:20:31You better teach yourself how to fail first
2:20:34because if you sit in failure for too long,
2:20:38you will never come out of it.
2:20:40So the first part of my success was
2:20:45learning how to fail properly.
2:20:48And then eventually, I started getting a few victories.
2:20:53But that's what people don't get.
2:20:55When you have buried yourself in such a deep fucking hole,
2:20:59you better first talk about the failures
2:21:01you're going to have first.
2:21:01And that's when that other voice comes up.
2:21:03It tells you, we've got to do something.
2:21:04But it also tells you, boy, I'm not
2:21:07going to lie to you, Goggins.
2:21:09You're in for a fucking climb, bro.
2:21:12You're going to get your ass handed to you,
2:21:14made fun of, the outside noise, the inside noise.
2:21:18Both voices are going to be fucking telling
2:21:20you to go fuck yourself.
2:21:22You are in for hell, bro.
2:21:26I am.
2:21:27So I better learn to fail.
2:21:28ANDREW HUBERMAN: So this is what you
2:21:30mean when you say that whatever anyone says,
2:21:32it's insignificant?
2:21:33DAVID GOGGINS: Insignificant as fuck.
2:21:34ANDREW HUBERMAN: It's the cap gun fire
2:21:36because it's just like it-- because the voice
2:21:38in your own head is far worse.
2:21:40And I should say, sorry, one of the voices in your head.
2:21:44I'm being very detailed, almost surgical
2:21:46about that because I think this thing about inner dialogue
2:21:49we think is one voice.
2:21:50But you're making it clear it's many voices.
2:21:53DAVID GOGGINS: It is.
2:21:54And the thing about it is, you have to be really--
2:21:59and sometimes all the voices are telling you
2:22:01the wrong shit, man.
2:22:03But through years, years, not a podcast or listening to a book
2:22:08or reading a book, years of sacrifice,
2:22:12of suffering, of diligent pinpoint fucking work
2:22:16on what you want to do for yourself,
2:22:18not like, oh, let me just do a bunch of shit.
2:22:23Let me-- I want to be in every task possible.
2:22:27No.
2:22:28Pinpoint what I want to do with my life.
2:22:33What happens is you have all these voices that
2:22:36are telling you you're fucked up,
2:22:38and this is going to be hard.
2:22:39But for some reason, you put so much practice into you
2:22:44that you can ignore every one of them that
2:22:47are telling you you're not going to fucking make it.
2:22:50And still be able to fucking make it
2:22:53because you have put the practice in that you
2:22:56know this is the process.
2:22:59It's such a daunting task that all the voices are saying no.
2:23:04But you still have the conviction
2:23:06that I know I can do this.
2:23:08And that's what it took for me to get here.
2:23:1320, 30 years ago, I had this--
2:23:1535 or whatever it was, 25 years ago, pipe dream.
2:23:21And ever since then, every voice was like, you're a fucking nut.
2:23:27But when you put that practice in every day, you lace them up.
2:23:30And I mean, run.
2:23:32It's just a metaphor for life.
2:23:34When you lace them motherfuckers up every day,
2:23:36pretty soon, you win.
2:23:38Pretty soon, you'll fucking win.
2:23:40If you have the courage and the heart and the dedication
2:23:42and the mindset of everybody can go fuck themselves,
2:23:45I know what I know.
2:23:46I've listened to myself enough to know.
2:23:49I know what I know.
2:23:51None of you can hear what I'm hearing.
2:23:53And that's what people don't do enough of.
2:23:55They don't listen to their journey.
2:23:58They listen to everybody else's shit.
2:24:00Before you know it, I'm crazy.
2:24:02But if I'm so fucking crazy, why am I so successful?
2:24:06How that happen?
2:24:09But I'm so misguided and fucked up.
2:24:13And don't listen to him.
2:24:17Why am I the only one to do a whole bunch of shit?
2:24:20Why am I a trailblazer?
2:24:23Why?
2:24:23How is that possible?
2:24:24How can you be fucked up and also self-made at the same
2:24:28fucking--
2:24:29no.
2:24:29No.
2:24:30Obviously, you're not looking at the truth in front of you.
2:24:34The truth in front of you is it sucks.
2:24:37It's painful.
2:24:39It's fucking mind-numbing.
2:24:41And that is the truth.
2:24:44And that's why a lot of people don't
2:24:46like listening to me because this is what it takes,
2:24:49creating another voice and sometimes going at it alone.
2:24:53All the time going at it alone because no one's
2:24:55going to believe in you.
2:24:57And that's that.
2:24:59ANDREW HUBERMAN: What I'm about to say is not conjecture.
2:25:01And I can say that with confidence
2:25:04because I did a four-episode guest
2:25:05series with a brilliant psychiatrist, a guy named
2:25:08Paul Conti.
2:25:09He's from Trenton.
2:25:10He's a Stanford, Harvard-trained guy.
2:25:12He's also got a lot of street in him.
2:25:13He's had his own hardship, real hardship.
2:25:16He's brilliant.
2:25:17And he said something that I'll never forget,
2:25:20which is, we think that the forebrain, the part
2:25:22of our brain that creates strategy, et cetera,
2:25:25is the supercomputer.
2:25:26He said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
2:25:28No, no, no.
2:25:29He's like, the supercomputer of the brain
2:25:31is the unconscious mind.
2:25:33It's the part of our mind that's controlling most everything.
2:25:38And most people, unfortunately, don't
2:25:40do the work to understand how their unconscious is
2:25:42controlling them.
2:25:43And that's a scary thing, this idea,
2:25:45like your mind is controlling you.
2:25:47And I'm not going to get into the free will debate.
2:25:49I believe in at least some will.
2:25:53I believe what you're describing and this internal dialogue,
2:25:59I think you have access to your unconscious mind
2:26:02by listening to the dialogue, going inward.
2:26:04We know this is true in sleep, in dreams, in meditation,
2:26:07and just by shutting out everything else, shutting out
2:26:10all the external noise, which is filled
2:26:13with things that pull us to it.
2:26:14Noise makes it sound bad, but it's the gravitational pull
2:26:16of all the things that allow us to distract ourselves
2:26:19without knowing.
2:26:22The ice cream.
2:26:23The have a cookie.
2:26:24The Merry Christmas.
2:26:26The unconscious mind, this huge piece
2:26:28of the iceberg underneath that Paul calls the supercomputer,
2:26:32he's saying that with knowledge as a neurobiologist,
2:26:35psychiatrist, psychologist, so he really knows,
2:26:37that's the piece that if one does real introspection,
2:26:41he calls it the cupboards.
2:26:42You got to look in the cupboards.
2:26:43And it's often really scary what you find in there.
2:26:45And most people are just like, I don't even
2:26:47want to know the cupboards are there.
2:26:48But you're pulling all the cupboard doors open.
2:26:52And then you're-- and you're extremely deliberate with what
2:26:55gets put into action.
2:26:58You're not just going, oh, like, I'm pissed,
2:26:59so I'm going to act pissed.
2:27:01Or I'm tired, so I'm going to act tired.
2:27:03It's you're picking very carefully what to do.
2:27:07And that's a process that I'm guessing came to you.
2:27:11Does it come to you as a, OK, it makes
2:27:13sense why running makes sense.
2:27:15It makes sense why smokejumping makes sense.
2:27:20So it seems like a huge portion of your time
2:27:25is spent understanding yourself and making sense to you.
2:27:30And so when people don't understand you,
2:27:32it's got to be extra frustrating because most people don't
2:27:34understand themselves.
2:27:35So then we're all running around going, you're this,
2:27:37and you're that because most people are just
2:27:39unwilling to look inward.
2:27:40And I'm including myself, by the way.
2:27:42I mean, I've done a fair amount of introspection.
2:27:44But I'm inspired today, that word, inspired, but it's true,
2:27:47motivated to start going inward further because it is scary.
2:27:53It's like, we don't know what's in those cupboards,
2:27:55and it's terrifying, especially because we don't know.
2:27:59DAVID GOGGINS: And those are the first ones to open up.
2:28:01And like you talked about, you got
2:28:02to go through those cupboards.
2:28:03I do spring cleaning every fucking
2:28:05day in those dark cupboards.
2:28:08Those dark cabinets are the ones I start with first.
2:28:10That's the real me, man.
2:28:13That's the real me.
2:28:13That's why I'm not ashamed.
2:28:16I don't hide.
2:28:17I used to hide.
2:28:19I don't hide anymore.
2:28:20He's exactly right.
2:28:21I don't know all the fucking science behind shit.
2:28:24I know what I know.
2:28:26That's why I don't listen to anybody anymore.
2:28:28I don't listen to shit.
2:28:28I think most people are full of shit because I know.
2:28:31I know the deep, dark secrets of those fucking cupboards.
2:28:35It's ugly, man.
2:28:36And every day, I'm talking to them.
2:28:38Every day, I'm cleaning them.
2:28:39I'm cleaning them, and I'm talking
2:28:40to the same demons that came out of those fucking cupboards
2:28:42as I'm cleaning them.
2:28:43Sometimes they go right back in them again.
2:28:46It's not easy.
2:28:48And this is why most of us just--
2:28:52why I am misunderstood because what comes out
2:28:56of those cabinets that I'm cleaning,
2:28:59sometimes they see on Instagram.
2:29:01Sometimes they'll see it in a podcast.
2:29:03Sometimes they see it in this one.
2:29:04I turn people off.
2:29:05Open up your own cabinets.
2:29:10And then go talk about it.
2:29:13Let me see how pretty it looks.
2:29:15Let me see how pretty you sound.
2:29:17Let me see how put together your words are.
2:29:20I bet you a fuck or a motherfucker comes out
2:29:22because for you to go back in there again
2:29:24to clean the same fucking cabinet that the demon came out
2:29:27of takes some big balls, bro.
2:29:30To do it every day of your life.
2:29:33To go back in there and spring clean every day, not once
2:29:38a fucking year, once every decade.
2:29:41Every day you know it gets dusty.
2:29:43And every day, you don't start with the victories.
2:29:47You don't go, oh, this is nice.
2:29:49Look at my-- look at my I love me wall.
2:29:51Let me clean up.
2:29:51This is a little dusty.
2:29:52No.
2:29:53I go right for the things that are going to keep me buried.
2:29:56And I go right there first because if I don't clean those
2:29:58out first, the day doesn't start.
2:30:01So what are you saying to me is truth.
2:30:06And like I told you many times today, I
2:30:09can never figure out how to explain this shit to people
2:30:13because I'm not neuro nothing.
2:30:16I'm just a guy that said, OK, we got to start in the dungeon.
2:30:21And we got to stay here for the rest of our lives.
2:30:25For you to become successful, the dungeon
2:30:27is a place that has to be clean.
2:30:30And it's the scariest place to be.
2:30:33That's why I'm misunderstood because I'm
2:30:35speaking from the dungeon.
2:30:37That's why I am successful because I
2:30:40go there every damn day.
2:30:41And that is the truth, what he says.
2:30:44It's the exact truth.
2:30:46Those cabinets are fucking dusty, dirty,
2:30:49and scary as shit.
2:30:51Broken glass, fucking dark, spiders, cobwebs.
2:30:58But most of all, your biggest fears,
2:31:01the biggest things that put you in a fucked up place you
2:31:04are today are in there.
2:31:05That's why we all like to keep them shut.
2:31:07You like to lock them up.
2:31:08Act like they never happened.
2:31:09That's why you never grow.
2:31:11You never improve.
2:31:13You never have real conversations
2:31:14like we're having right now.
2:31:15Never.
2:31:16Never.
2:31:17Oh no.
2:31:18No, no, no, no, no.
2:31:19Let's not-- no, no, no.
2:31:20Let's not go there.
2:31:21I talked to so many people who tell me that.
2:31:24Let's talk about this.
2:31:27Because they'll tell me, but they can only say it once.
2:31:31And they'll say it in passing.
2:31:32They won't get deep in the weeds with it.
2:31:34Like, you can't just clean it.
2:31:37Motherfucker, you got to spit shine that motherfucker.
2:31:40You got to relive it, every fucking detail of it.
2:31:45You can't just be like, oh yeah, yeah, my dad beat me.
2:31:47And it is what it is.
2:31:51It ain't is what it is, motherfucker.
2:31:52It's killing you.
2:31:54It's taken over your whole fucking life.
2:31:57But that's the conversation.
2:31:58Yeah, my dad beat-- but I'm fine now, though.
2:32:00I'm good.
2:32:01OK.
2:32:03All right.
2:32:04No, you ain't.
2:32:04You ain't fine.
2:32:06You ain't fine.
2:32:07This is real talk.
2:32:08People don't have that.
2:32:09So your boy's right.
2:32:11100% right.
2:32:12Scary as shit.
2:32:14It's scary as shit.
2:32:16But it makes you who you're supposed to be.
2:32:20And that's the test.
2:32:22We forget.
2:32:23We think we're supposed to breathe air and have kids
2:32:26and pay the bills and shit.
2:32:29But what's this life about?
2:32:31That makes no sense.
2:32:34We're being tested, my friend.
2:32:36Tests come when you have not studied.
2:32:41Tests come when you think that you're in a great place.
2:32:45That's the test.
2:32:46The test is every day of your life.
2:32:48And most of us fail because we don't
2:32:50know why we're here because we don't go inward to say, oh.
2:32:54You gave me a lot of shit to fix, man.
2:32:57And this test sucks.
2:33:00But then you start.
2:33:03ANDREW HUBERMAN: David Goggins.
2:33:07I don't think I could add to that.
2:33:08I know I can't.
2:33:12Thank you for sharing what you shared today.
2:33:17I mean, as much as your process or anyone's process
2:33:22can't be completely understood from the outside,
2:33:28you gave us a real window into this thing,
2:33:31this process that you--
2:33:35as you said, God put it on you.
2:33:37I believe in God too.
2:33:38People can believe what they want.
2:33:39But somehow, your life, God gave you these challenges early on.
2:33:45And then there was a point where you went internal.
2:33:50And like you said, you developed a skill.
2:33:53But it's a perishable skill.
2:33:55And you clearly live in the process
2:33:58of opening those cupboards, reopening those cupboards,
2:34:02trying to spit shine those cupboards,
2:34:04understanding that they're never, ever really done,
2:34:08but that you can gain ground on them, that you can win day
2:34:12after day after day.
2:34:14And you really shared a lot of concrete things
2:34:16that I know people are going to be
2:34:21able to apply if they choose.
2:34:23And I agree with you.
2:34:23I think most people will be like, whoa.
2:34:26That was a lot.
2:34:28It's heavy.
2:34:28I think I want to just kind of bake myself in Netflix and Chex
2:34:34Mix instead.
2:34:37But there's also the reality that there
2:34:40are men and women, boys and girls who hear that and go, OK,
2:34:46and start cracking the cupboards open.
2:34:49And I just know that for myself, I'm
2:34:52extremely grateful that you're willing to put it
2:34:54all out there.
2:34:55You're so brutally honest, so brutally authentic.
2:35:00That word authenticity gets thrown around so much.
2:35:03And I can tell you that for me and for everybody else, that's
2:35:07really what resonates.
2:35:09So whether or not you want to, whether or not it's
2:35:11the purpose behind it or not, you're lighting the path.
2:35:15So thank you.
2:35:17DAVID GOGGINS: Respect Thank you.
2:35:18Thanks for having me.
2:35:19ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank you for joining me
2:35:20for today's discussion with David Goggins.
2:35:22To learn more about David and to find links
2:35:25to his two fantastic books, "Can't Hurt Me,"
2:35:27and "Never Finished," please see the show note captions.
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2:37:20Thank you, once again, for joining me
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2:37:29[MUSIC PLAYING]

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