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How To Build High Status, Wealth & Powerful Relationships | Rob Henderson | FO577 Raj Shamani — Transcript

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0:00You've studied rich people and poor
0:01people both. Who craves status more?
0:03>> Rather than the poor craving status the
0:06most, it's actually the rich. People who
0:08have wealth and status crave more wealth
0:10and status. There's a really nice line,
0:12the more one has, the more one wants.
0:15>> Rob K Henderson is an author [music] and
0:17social scientist who studies wealth,
0:19class, and society. If you want to
0:21understand how these forces shape our
0:23lives, this episode [music] is for you.
0:26If we put 10 people in one house for a
0:29month, take away their identity, after
0:31the end of month, do you think people
0:33who are high status in real life will
0:35end up again rising to the top?
0:37>> I think um generally speaking, yes.
0:41>> What determines who rises to the top?
0:43>> People who are successful, look at their
0:44traits. You also need to be intelligent,
0:47to have formed good alliances, gain
0:49people's trust, do things that other
0:51people find valuable, or have some um
0:53ability to tolerate risk.
0:56>> I'm going to give you five things which
0:58are traditionally linked to high status.
1:01What do you think? Where do they stand
1:02today? Education, luxury goods,
1:05relationships, properties, and money.
1:07>> I'm tempted to to put the property at
1:09number one because it's so hard now and
1:12now it's so inordinately expensive. Yes.
1:14Then I would probably put relationship
1:17number two. Marriage rates are lower.
1:19It's so hard now for people to find
1:21steady committed relationship. Number
1:23three, yeah, education here because it
1:26shows you kind of like what type of
1:27person you are. Four, probably the goods
1:30and then money last.
1:33>> Tell me three immediate things which
1:35this person can do in next 12 months to
1:38take themselves from low status to high
1:39status.
1:40>> The thing that they could immediately
1:41do, physical fitness, visibly look
1:43better over time, but there's a
1:44psychological component, too, where you
1:46feel physically more confident and more
1:48capable and this can be reflected in
1:51your interactions, being more appealing
1:53as a friend or as a romantic partner,
1:55cleaning up your diet, and then um
1:57clothing, do some basic grooming, just
1:59so that when you step out into the
2:00social world, you look as high as your
2:02genetic ceiling will allow you to look.
2:05>> Tell me what kind of conversations on a
2:07dinner table people are having. Someone
2:09who's stuck versus someone who's in the
2:11top 1%.
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2:35as well.
2:40You know what was fascinating to me,
2:41Andre?
2:42About you.
2:44That
2:46you started with
2:49being very low status.
2:51>> Mhm.
2:51>> In a society which was
2:54not very high status at all.
2:56>> Mhm.
2:57>> Mhm.
2:57>> And then from there on, you've done
2:59couple of things in series in your life
3:01where
3:03you have entered the most elite
3:05institutions in the world.
3:07And then you became obsessed with this
3:08thing that
3:09>> Mhm.
3:10>> why some people earn status, why some
3:12people earn respect versus why people
3:15some people just stay invisible.
3:17>> Mhm.
3:17>> Right.
3:17>> So, I love this.
3:19>> Mhm.
3:19>> I just love this obsession of yours
3:21because you keep writing and talking
3:22about it. So, let's explore that.
3:24Welcome on figuring out Rob Henderson.
3:27It's a pleasure having you.
3:28>> Thanks, Raj. Great to be here.
3:29>> So,
3:30for the people who have no clue who you
3:32are, and they're watching you for the
3:34first time,
3:34>> Mhm.
3:36>> what do you do?
3:37And why should they watch this episode
3:40for next couple of hours?
3:42>> Oh.
3:42>> Tell us in next 60 seconds.
3:43>> Sure. Uh well, my name is Rob Henderson.
3:46I am a senior fellow at the Manhattan
3:48Institute. I write about social class,
3:52social status. I wrote a best-selling
3:56memoir that came out a couple of years
3:57ago called Troubled and I document my
4:00own personal experiences with upward
4:02social mobility. I grew up in foster
4:04homes in Los Angeles. Um lived in a
4:08series of 10 different homes growing up.
4:10I fled as soon as I could. I enlisted in
4:13the military when I was 17.
4:15Uh then from there went off to Yale on
4:17the GI Bill and then got a scholarship
4:19to get a PhD from the University of
4:21Cambridge studying social and
4:22evolutionary psychology. And so from
4:25both an academic perspective and a
4:27personal perspective, I've always been
4:28interested in class, in status, and what
4:31are the predictors of success, how do we
4:33evaluate one another.
4:35Uh and so I've written about this both
4:36in in books and in articles in my
4:38Substack.
4:39>> Tell me the first thing. We we should
4:40start at this point that you also got
4:42excited about.
4:44Uh why young people lie so much?
4:46>> Why young people lie so much? Uh and and
4:49it is the case. So I think anecdotally
4:51people notice that young people are more
4:55kind of fluid with the truth. Um and
4:59this is born out in the research. Uh
5:02survey data shows this that um
5:04the years that people uh tell the most
5:08lies is uh adolescence through the early
5:1120s.
5:13Um
5:13and you know, everyone to some extent
5:16regardless of age so you know,
5:18uh can tell falsehoods, but if you look
5:20at who tells the most, it tends to be
5:21young people. Um
5:24The people who tell the fewest lies tend
5:25to be very young children um
5:28and very old people. So kind of uh
5:30people, you know, younger than 10 years
5:32old and people who are kind of older
5:34than 60 years old. But this window of
5:36time when people are the most deceptive
5:38um
5:40Well, one reason for this is that those
5:42years, those adolescent and
5:45uh years in the 20s, That period of life
5:48coincides when certain personality
5:50traits spike. Um,
5:53so, personality, there's some stability
5:55throughout the lifespan, but it waxes
5:56and wanes. You know, things can change
5:58with age and with development and with
6:00experience. There are, um, three
6:03particular traits though that have
6:04gotten a lot of attention in personality
6:06psychology both from academics and from
6:08the public in general, the dark triad.
6:11Um, so, the dark triad, three
6:12personality traits. Uh, so, you have
6:15narcissism, psychopathy, and
6:17Machiavellianism. And so, narcissism, a
6:20lot of people are familiar with this in
6:21everyday life, but it's, you know, a
6:23sense of, uh, importance,
6:25self-entitlement, this belief that
6:27you're due maybe more than others, um,
6:30selfishness. Uh, and then psychopathy,
6:32which is, uh, callousness, disregard for
6:36others, a kind of cynicism, a
6:37willingness to step on other people to
6:39get what you want. And then there's
6:41Machiavellianism,
6:43um, named after the kind of infamous
6:45political philosopher, Machiavelli. And
6:47Machiavellianism is, um,
6:49the willingness to engage in strategic
6:51duplicity and exploitation, uh, for your
6:54own ends, for your own interests. And
6:57these three traits, these are not used
6:59in like a clinical setting, um, among
7:01mental health professionals to diagnose
7:03someone. These are The dark triad is
7:05meant to capture kind of ordinary
7:07variation in, you know, kind of, uh, the
7:09healthy,
7:10uh, population, ordinary people. We all
7:12have these traits to some degree. Um,
7:16but if you meet someone who would score,
7:18say, at the 99th percentile of all three
7:20traits, that might be someone you would
7:22want to avoid. Um, almost nobody scores
7:25kind of zero across the board. Those
7:27three traits peak during the late teens
7:30and the early 20s.
7:32Um, so, you kind of start off relatively
7:33low on the dark triad, and then you hit
7:36puberty, and you get a little bit older,
7:37and you reach young adulthood, and those
7:39traits spike. And then as you enter
7:41middle age and old age, they tend to
7:44decline with time. So, there are a
7:46couple of different possible
7:47explanations for why this is. And as you
7:49can imagine, people higher on the dark
7:51triad tell more lies.
7:52>> Yeah.
7:53>> But why is this? One possible
7:55explanation that has been put forth is
7:58that having some
8:01moderate
8:02scores on these traits, having a bit of
8:04propensity to indulge in those traits,
8:06can help you a little bit
8:09to succeed in the world. And when you're
8:11young and you are
8:15you know, as you say, maybe maybe a bit
8:16low status, you're seeking friendships,
8:18you're seeking alliances, you're seeking
8:20success in your career, you're seeking
8:22romantic partners. It can help to be a
8:25little bit strategic, you know, maybe a
8:27little bit kind of willing to
8:31be flexible with the truth, just a
8:33little bit. If you go too far, then you
8:35start to have serious problems in your
8:36relationships and you know, with
8:38employers and so on, if you're known as
8:39a serial liar.
8:41But having sort of moderate traits can
8:43be advantageous. Sometimes they can be
8:45advantageous when you are dealing with
8:46someone who's extremely high on these
8:47traits. So, example that some people
8:50will give
8:51is
8:52you know, during wartime, if you're
8:53going up against someone like like Adolf
8:55Hitler, maybe it helps to be someone
8:57like Winston Churchill who would not
8:59score zero on the dark triad traits,
9:01right?
9:02Um So, that's one reason. Maybe they can
9:04be advantageous in the realm of success,
9:06in the realm of status seeking, in the
9:07realm of attaining romantic partners.
9:09>> Okay.
9:10>> Um
9:11The other possible reason for why this
9:13occurs, it's not so much why does it
9:15spike in young
9:17in your younger years, but why does it
9:18decline with age? And there's an
9:22adaptive explanation for this. There's a
9:25clinical psychologist, Nancy McWilliams,
9:27who's described what she calls like like
9:29burnout,
9:30where these traits fade with time.
9:33And the explanation for this is that
9:36when you are young and healthy and
9:39strong and robust, you can take more
9:42risks. You can take more physical risks,
9:44you can take more social risks, you can
9:46bounce back from
9:48being in potentially hazardous
9:50situations as a young person.
9:52If you are a bit aggressive or
9:54confrontational or you
9:57potentially betray someone, but as you
10:00get older, your body ages physically.
10:03You know, you're a bit frailer frailer
10:04you're
10:06more vulnerable to all kinds of hazards
10:08and all kinds of risks. And so it
10:10actually can help to be less aggressive,
10:12less confrontational, a bit more
10:14passive, a bit more meek, a bit more
10:16complacent, and that keeps you from
10:18those dangerous situations. And you see
10:21this for example with with criminals.
10:23For a lot of
10:25prison inmates for example, you find you
10:27know that rates of
10:30indulging in crime they peak during the
10:32teens and 20s. And then often those very
10:34same people who were kind of dangerous
10:35and violent in their 20s, by the time
10:37they reach middle age and old age,
10:39they're perfectly fine. So there's a
10:40kind of an effect of burnout there.
10:42>> But see, this is
10:45you said that these are the traits that
10:46almost everybody has, right?
10:47[clears throat] But there are some
10:48people who show these traits way more,
10:51I'm talking about the general
10:53ordinary people
10:55who show this on a very
10:57regular basis, on an everyday basis,
10:59where lying is almost like a second
11:01nature for them.
11:02Right? In fact, I was reading some
11:04report that almost 60% of people report
11:07lying in the first 10 minutes of a
11:09conversation with anyone.
11:11>> Okay.
11:11>> And pathological liars, they say up to
11:1510 lies a day on an average.
11:17So
11:18and then when you actually dig deeper
11:20and you ask questions to these people
11:22who are lying in first 10 minutes of the
11:24conversation, they're saying
11:26they're just lying to smooth in the
11:28conversation. They're not even lying to
11:29actually get some unkind of a unfair
11:32advantage over somebody else.
11:33>> Mhm.
11:34>> [clears throat]
11:34>> So, why is it becoming such a habit for
11:37people to just lie little bit? It
11:41I can't directly relate it to
11:43dark triad traits, right? This is just
11:45probably a habit which people do either
11:47to elevate status
11:49or something else.
11:49>> Mhm. Well, [snorts] there's a part of it
11:51for sure. I mean, so much of social life
11:54is about avoiding conflict. You want to
11:56present yourself in a certain way. You
11:58have you there's some um
12:00uh reputation management going on
12:02anytime two people or more are
12:04interacting with each other.
12:05>> Reputation management going on,
12:07[laughter] yeah.
12:07>> Yes.
12:08>> That is true.
12:08>> Yeah, no, no, totally. No, it's it's
12:10it's critical. Um
12:12you know, how we are seen by others.
12:14It's it's important to people even when
12:16we interact with people we'll never see
12:17again. We still like to make a certain
12:19kind of impression on them.
12:21Um
12:22and so I have seen, you know, similar uh
12:25data on this that people, you know, will
12:28tell lies in the first few minutes, but
12:29often these are white lies. You know,
12:31you ask me how I'm doing and maybe my
12:33car broke down and this that and the
12:34other and I've had a bad day, but I'll
12:35tell you, "Hey, everything's good, you
12:36know, cuz I don't want to burden you
12:38with all of this stuff I'm going
12:39through." So, that, you know, that
12:40technically counts as a lie, but it's
12:42a lie to sort of smooth over social
12:45frictions and just help us to get along
12:46better. Um and there there are, you
12:50know, the pathological liar stuff is
12:52really interesting, too, that um some
12:55psychologists, there's a book by Robin
12:57Dunbar, um
12:59it's called, I think, The Social
13:00Connection, something like this. It's a
13:01Robin Dunbar book. He's a
13:03evolutionary psychologist at Oxford.
13:05He's looked at this.
13:06>> Dunbar effect.
13:06>> Yeah, oh, yeah. So, that's why you have
13:07the Dunbar number. He's done some other
13:09work on uh on on lying. He reports this
13:12in his book where he talks about how
13:13something like 1% of the population
13:16accounts for around 40% of the lies
13:19told. Um
13:21and so, you know, everyone lies to some
13:24degree, but there's this kind of power
13:26law, this uneven distribution where
13:28there's a small slice of the population
13:30that tell them you know, not the
13:32majority, but but a lot of lies.
13:35And you know, it's hard to hard to trust
13:37people like that. I mean, honestly, like
13:39so much of our you know, society is
13:41structured to protect ourselves from
13:43those kinds of people.
13:44>> What are the most common lies you think
13:46everybody
13:47tells maybe without even realizing that
13:49that this is a lie?
13:51>> I actually think we could take the
13:52example of
13:54you know, in American culture of you
13:55know, how's it going? I'm good. I think
13:57that is probably actually the most
13:58common.
13:59>> Lie.
13:59>> Yeah.
14:01If we can categorize it as a lie and
14:02it's not done for malicious reasons.
14:04It's like oh, I'm going to trick him
14:05into thinking I'm fine when I'm really
14:07not. It's more so just like hey, you
14:08know, I don't need to have this long
14:09conversation or I don't want to throw
14:11all of my issues onto you. I mean,
14:15you're seeing
14:16you know, if you if you believe what
14:17you're seeing on social media,
14:19people lying about you know, romantic
14:22relationships and that kind of thing.
14:24There's probably some
14:26lying going on job applications. People
14:30will embellish their qualifications,
14:31that kind of thing and
14:33I think part of that is
14:37whenever you feel an increase in
14:40competition, an increase in scarcity of
14:42desired
14:44resources or positions, this puts
14:47pressure on people to maybe embroider,
14:50embellish, overstate their
14:52qualifications or their interest or what
14:54have you. So you could apply that to the
14:56professional realm where you know, a lot
14:58of people feel this crunch with
15:01globalization, with AI, with advanced
15:03tech that it feels, I don't know how
15:05true it is because I don't know if the
15:06unemployment data bear this out, but
15:07there's this feeling that the job market
15:10is becoming more scarce and so people
15:12are more willing to maybe lie there. And
15:15then in the romantic realm,
15:17you know, I'm sure you're familiar with
15:19the data on marriage rates cratering,
15:20relationships aren't forming, people are
15:22having a hard time dating, and so this
15:24is, you know, a place where people might
15:26um also
15:28uh uh lie and and uh you know, say
15:31things that um are not entirely truthful
15:33just because uh they feel this
15:35competition, this this um uh
15:38competitiveness.
15:39>> Do you think childhood and family,
15:41society, it shapes a lot
15:44when it comes to how much a person is
15:46going to lie? Because some behaviors
15:48might become baseline and normal in some
15:51families, and something would be very
15:53different in others. Like, for example,
15:56if
15:57someone's grown up in a family where
16:00everybody
16:03everybody talks about their status and
16:07their surroundings in a much higher way,
16:09and they they tell more than they have.
16:11It becomes a very normal thing for that
16:13young person to grow up and then talk
16:16about his or her status in the world,
16:18and just talk lot like you know, talk
16:21and show more than that that that the
16:22person has.
16:23>> Hm.
16:24>> And then [clears throat] on the other
16:25side, there are a lot of families and a
16:26lot of people
16:27who don't who show less than what they
16:29have.
16:29>> Hm.
16:30>> And then for a young person growing in
16:32that family actually starts
16:34telling less about things, and that
16:35person also lies.
16:36>> Would you consider that you So so you
16:37would consider that a lie then? So if
16:39I'm, you know, if I'm a rich, successful
16:40guy, but I tell you, "Oh, I'm just a
16:42normal person. I don't have much." Is
16:43that a lie?
16:44>> No, I'm saying
16:45>> Okay.
16:45>> when you see this,
16:46>> Yeah.
16:47>> it becomes your habit to do this in all
16:50every field of your life.
16:51>> Hm.
16:51>> So for example, when you're
16:52professionally applying to some company,
16:54>> Hm.
16:55>> right? [clears throat] If you have seen
16:56that, okay, just making it flowery and
16:58you know, talking about yourself in a
17:00boastful manner is [clears throat] not a
17:02lie, you'll do that on your professional
17:03career as well.
17:04>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
17:05>> So maybe you're a poor guy and
17:07pretending to be rich,
17:08>> Yeah.
17:09>> that is not, let's say, a lie, for
17:11example. You're just pretending because
17:13that's how you're living. You're not not
17:15telling anyone that, "Hey, I am this
17:16person and this my network, but that is
17:18psychologically become your baseline so
17:20that you so that then you start doing
17:22that in almost every area of your life.
17:24Do you think that happens?
17:26>> Uh
17:26it it yeah, it strikes me as true. I
17:28mean,
17:29one thing that I've noticed um
17:32through my experiences with social
17:33mobility, growing up in poverty and in
17:35foster homes, and then the military, and
17:38then off to elite institutions is um as
17:41a generalization,
17:42I would say that poor people pretend to
17:45be richer than they really are, and rich
17:48people pretend to be poorer than they
17:49really are. So, poor people will lie
17:52upward, and rich people lie downward.
17:55And
17:56>> Why?
17:57>> Well, so for the poor person, um you you
18:00know, you want to
18:02being poor is low status, right? And you
18:04don't want to signal to people that you
18:07are desperate, and that you need help,
18:10and that you're in this position where
18:13um you know, you're you're dispossessed
18:15in some way.
18:17And there's some awareness that uh in
18:20order, you know,
18:22it's kind of this paradox here where if
18:24you are very poor, the way to not be
18:26poor is to convince people that you're
18:27not poor, because people
18:30um
18:30are more willing to help winners,
18:32essentially.
18:33It's kind of this cool paradox here
18:35where success breeds success. People are
18:37familiar with the Matthew effect and
18:38Pareto distributions, and so on, that
18:41you know, you could imagine, you know,
18:42two guys arriving at the same event. One
18:44of these guys shows up in an old
18:46broken-down car that couldn't pass a
18:48smog test. He's wearing a you know, a
18:50shabby-looking suit. He looks really
18:51rough, and he arrives at this event, and
18:53people are going to see this guy, and
18:55maybe tiptoe around him, avoid him,
18:56like, I don't know if I want to talk to
18:57that person. And then another guy pulls
18:59up in a you know, $5,000 suit. He's in a
19:02Lamborghini. He seems like everything is
19:04going extremely well for him. Things are
19:06going well for him, and yet through that
19:08success, and through the you know, the
19:10the the presentation of that success,
19:11people are going to be drawn to him.
19:13They're going to be like, "Who's this
19:14guy in the nice suit? Who's the guy in
19:15the Lamborghini? I wonder what what he's
19:16interested in. What he's out What is he
19:17up to? What does he do for work?" And
19:19then more opportunities open. So, when
19:21you're a poor person, you lie upward in
19:22order to kind of improve your chances of
19:25not being poor anymore.
19:28On the other hand, um
19:29especially in Oh, yeah, [clears throat]
19:31I would say like especially in the
19:32modern US, you see a lot of this um
19:35modesty. Some of it is real, some of it
19:38is a bit fake, this kind of humility um
19:42of very successful people who will
19:44downplay their success. They will say
19:46that they actually don't have much or
19:48that um
19:50you know, they they downplay um
19:53you know, how hard they had to work, the
19:55um the effort that they've put in, or
19:57they'll say, "You know, I'm just the
19:58same as everyone else. I'm I'm middle
20:00class just like everyone else." even if
20:02they have a private jet. Now, this part
20:04about um whether growing up poor um
20:07makes people maybe more willing to lie
20:09about their status, something like that,
20:11that is interesting because it does tie
20:13into the dark triad. There's research on
20:16childhood instability.
20:18And researchers have found that children
20:19who have grown up in extremely unstable,
20:22unpredictable, dysfunctional homes, um
20:26they trace them over time and in
20:28adulthood they score higher. There's a
20:30correlation. They score higher on the
20:32dark triad traits. So, the one
20:35interpretation is that the more unstable
20:37your childhood, the higher you score on
20:39the dark triad later. And maybe this is
20:41because as a young child, um you're
20:43perhaps around a lot of adults who are
20:45willing to bend the truth and you absorb
20:47that from them.
20:49Um and then uh another part of this is
20:52maybe you're more short-term oriented,
20:54that you don't feel that you can uh rely
20:56on anyone or anything. Relationships
20:58don't last, so you might as well just
20:59get what you can uh
21:01in the moment without thinking long-term
21:03about um building enduring alliances and
21:06so on.
21:06>> Or maybe because you have grown up in an
21:09in an unstable unstable environment and
21:14there's so much uncertainty around you,
21:16so you want to control. And you feel the
21:18fastest way to build control over your
21:20life and the people around you is dark
21:23triad traits because that gives you a
21:24sense of control.
21:25>> Yes.
21:26>> Because you want certainty.
21:27>> That's a good Yeah, that's that's a good
21:29point. Um
21:30you know, it it it Yeah, the dark triad
21:32traits it
21:33you can you can fill you with this kind
21:35of ambition. Maybe it's a a misguided
21:37form of ambition, but yeah, when you
21:39when you feel lost and you feel you
21:41can't trust anyone, um
21:44you know, maybe it's better to sort of
21:46have those traits activate rather than
21:47being sort of complacent and passive.
21:49>> Yeah. Yeah. So, tell me because you've
21:52studied rich people and poor people
21:54both,
21:54>> Mhm. [clears throat]
21:55>> who crave status more?
21:57Rich people status rich people crave
21:59status more or poor people?
22:01>> It's it's a good question. Well, so you
22:03might think that poor people crave
22:05status more. You know, I grew up, you
22:06know, poor at least in the context of
22:08the US and I'm very interested in these
22:10topics. You might think that someone,
22:11you know, kind of you know, the the
22:13general abstract person in society, if
22:15they grow up low income, they don't have
22:17much status, that's the person who
22:19craves the most because they have this
22:21thing they lack. We want what we don't
22:23have, that kind of idea.
22:25But when you look at the research on um
22:28social status, who pursues it, who's the
22:30most uh covetous of it,
22:33um
22:33it tends to be people who already have
22:35status.
22:36Uh so, this has been a replicated study.
22:39There was one study in uh 2019 and one
22:42in 2022. Independent teams of
22:43researchers, they
22:45more or less conducted the same set of
22:47studies, so
22:49if you collect people's
22:51um
22:53uh metrics on status, so their income,
22:56level of education, occupational
22:58prestige, um
23:00and you find that people who score at or
23:04near the top of those measures are the
23:07most likely to agree with statements
23:09like it would please me to be in a
23:11position of power over others.
23:14Uh it's important for me to have
23:15influence over my peers. I enjoy when
23:17people look at me when I walk into a
23:19room. And so I rather than the poor
23:23craving status the most, it's actually
23:25the rich. People who are doing well in
23:27their lives, people who have wealth and
23:28status crave more wealth and status.
23:31There's a really nice line uh from the
23:3419th century sociologist Emile Durkheim
23:36who said, uh "The more one has, the more
23:39one wants since satisfactions received
23:41only stimulate instead of filling
23:43needs." And I remember the first time I
23:45read these studies, you know, 2019, I
23:47was in grad school. I was kind of still
23:49thinking through these issues.
23:51And I didn't know if I believed it at
23:52first, but you know, the more I dwelled
23:54on it, the more I realized that when I
23:56was poor, and most poor people, you have
23:58a very limited number of desires, right?
24:00You know, maybe you want warmth, you
24:01want shelter, you want food. Um you you
24:04know, you you want to not be arrested.
24:07There are a few things, you know, it's
24:08it's just a handful you're primarily
24:10focused on sort of your safety, your
24:11well-being, your health. Um
24:14And once all of those needs are
24:16satisfied, you know, you don't have to
24:19worry about where your next meal is
24:20coming from, you don't have to worry
24:21about paying the rent, you don't have to
24:23worry about uh you know, the cops or
24:25anything like that.
24:27Then you don't you you don't find that
24:29most people okay, when I I'm good. I
24:30don't have to think about anything
24:31anymore. All my needs are met. I can
24:32just kick back and lounge by the pool.
24:35Often you start thinking about the other
24:37desires that you've been neglecting
24:39because you've been so focused on basic
24:41survival. Suddenly you're thinking, you
24:42know, how do I um you know, I have
24:45money. How do I earn even more money?
24:46You know, I'm doing well in my career,
24:47but how do I do even better in my
24:49career? I have some friends, but you
24:50know, I wonder if I could get some
24:51higher status friends. You know, I
24:53wonder if I could you know, and and so
24:55all of these other desires start to to
24:57percolate upward. And to me this helped
24:59to explain
25:01Um
25:03almost no one in my life up until I got
25:05to college, up until I arrived at Yale
25:07at age 25, no one in my life talked
25:09about status. Maybe they talked about it
25:11in kind of indirect ways using other
25:13words like honor or respect, those kinds
25:16of things. Like you want people to
25:17respect you.
25:18Um
25:19but then when I get to college, you
25:21know, I'm hearing this word status, I'm
25:22hearing people interested in prestige,
25:24I'm hearing people talk about how they
25:27can't wait to
25:28get this internship, get this job, get
25:30to this next high-paying gig. And all of
25:32the people I was around, objectively
25:35they they were doing better than anyone
25:36I'd ever met in my life. You know, by
25:38the time you get to this kind of
25:39university
25:40you know, your life is going to be
25:42pretty pretty good, you know, compared
25:44to the average person. Um but that is
25:46when I started to interact with people
25:48who were just obsessed with this notion
25:51of accomplishment, achievement, doing
25:53more, doing better, you know, impressing
25:55more and more people. And I think that
25:58those interactions too kind of
26:00contributed to my own interest in
26:01status.
26:02>> What do you think what used to give
26:04people high status before but not
26:07anymore?
26:08>> Well, so historically
26:10if you look at you know, a lot of the
26:12the sociological work back in the day,
26:15people like Thorstein Veblen
26:17who wrote this amazing book The Theory
26:19of the Leisure Class.
26:20Historically, social status was
26:23exhibited through material goods, luxury
26:25goods, material possessions.
26:28And you know,
26:30prior to the 20th century
26:33you could walk around, you know, any
26:35major city, probably anywhere on Earth
26:37honestly,
26:38where there are any class distinctions
26:40whatsoever and you could immediately
26:41tell just by looking at someone how
26:43they're dressed and how they're groomed,
26:45who's rich and who's poor.
26:47It's much more difficult to do that
26:48today.
26:50You can still do it, you know, it's it's
26:51not an impossible task. But if you were
26:54to
26:54>> more difficult.
26:55>> Right. You walk around New York City in
26:58um you know, 1820 versus 2026, you'll
27:01tell you know, you could tell the
27:02difference who's rich and who's poor.
27:04Um
27:04And sometimes I'll tell this joke that
27:06San Francisco, maybe it's harder, you
27:07know, there's there's a game people
27:08play. What is it?
27:10Is this guy homeless or is he a tech
27:11bro?
27:12>> [laughter]
27:13>> But uh you know, that aside, that was
27:16the old way. Um there were some
27:18fascinating stories too about how elites
27:20tried to control um the exhibition of
27:23goods um because they were trying to
27:25protect their status. So, uh you see
27:27sumptuary laws, these laws about who's
27:29allowed to wear what kind of clothing.
27:31Um you look at feudal Japan in the 17th
27:33century, the samurai were the
27:35aristocrats of feudal Japan. You know,
27:38these were the nobility, the samurai,
27:39the warriors. They had their sword and
27:41they wear wore fine silks, their fine
27:43garments, and of course they had their
27:44armor too when they were going into
27:45battle. But they wore fine silks and
27:48that was what they were known for.
27:51In the 17th century, merchants started
27:53to travel, they started to trade, they
27:54started to get wealthy, and the
27:56merchants suddenly could afford silks,
27:58and the samurai uh were infuriated by
28:01this, and they made requests to the
28:03authorities to essentially ban the
28:05purchase of fine silks, to limit it only
28:08to the aristocrats, the nobility, the
28:10samurai. No one else can wear this. It's
28:11a critically important, and you see this
28:13in um
28:14uh other times and places throughout
28:16history as well. Uh pointy shoes in
28:18Europe, there was this thing going on in
28:20medieval Europe about only certain kinds
28:21of uh social classes should be allowed
28:23to wear pointy shoes, and the pointier
28:24the higher status you were.
28:27Today, um things have changed, and you
28:29know, this is where my luxury beliefs
28:31idea comes in. That now that material
28:35possessions have become a noisier signal
28:38of one's social rank, uh
28:41and at as we've established, you uh
28:43high-status people crave status more
28:45than anyone, and
28:48you know, I'm simplifying somewhat here,
28:50but if you're a high-status person and
28:51you think, "Okay, well,
28:53you know, how do I exhibit my status?" I
28:54could do it through material goods, but
28:56that's harder, you know, a lot of other
28:57people can afford this, too. So, how do
28:59I show that I'm a high-status person?
29:01Well, you could do it through ideas,
29:03through beliefs, through opinions, uh
29:06through um what some sociologists call
29:08cultural capital,
29:10um which we can we can talk about here,
29:12too. You have um these three forms of of
29:14capital.
29:15>> Mhm.
29:15>> Um
29:16the most basic form is
29:19economic capital, which everyone can
29:21understand. That's essentially how much
29:22money you have, material resources. Do
29:24you have economic capital?
29:26But, um what you often find is that once
29:29people reach a certain level of economic
29:31capital, they become interested in these
29:32two other forms of capital. So, there's
29:34social capital, which is your network,
29:37you know, the kinds of people you know.
29:38Do you have uh impressive friends? Do
29:40you have friends who are also successful
29:42in their careers? Do you have friends
29:43who can open doors for you? That kind of
29:45thing. And it's not just for you, but
29:46for your children, as well. So,
29:48um knowing um you know, who runs the
29:51private school in your town so that your
29:52kids can get in, that's a form of social
29:54capital. Um and then there's cultural
29:56capital.
29:57Uh and this pillar of capital is um
30:01you convert your economic capital into
30:04displays of taste, of displays of um
30:08interest, of hobbies.
30:11And so, cultural capital, uh when this
30:14term was developed in the 1970s by uh
30:17this guy, Pierre Bourdieu, he um was
30:20writing about how the elites of his time
30:22in the 1970s, they were interested in
30:25knowing a lot about wine, you know, the
30:26different vintages of wine, where was
30:28this, you know,
30:29uh a vintage grown? Um knowing a lot
30:32about art, the history of art, you know,
30:34looking at a painting and being able to
30:35say something interesting and
30:37sophisticated about it, knowing about
30:39exotic locations, um
30:42kind of knowing like insider language,
30:44insider lingo.
30:46Um
30:46you know, like I as I mentioned though,
30:48I I moved to New York a couple of years
30:50ago and I'm learning oh, there's certain
30:51kinds of language in New York City that
30:53only people who grew up here know about
30:55where people will say um you know,
30:58they'll talk about going down the shore,
31:00which is like an area in New Jersey uh
31:02where people go for the summers. They
31:04talk about uh uh the Hamptons in a
31:06certain kind of way. They um will, you
31:09know, kind of mention clubs and gauge
31:11your reaction, do you know this club or
31:13not? I saw this um
31:15when I was a student at Yale. Uh there
31:17are residential colleges
31:19and each student is each undergraduate
31:23student is assigned to a different
31:24college. You know, you might go to
31:25Silliman College, you might go to Hopper
31:27College, Jonathan Edwards College. And
31:30there are other universities uh as well
31:33um
31:33around New Haven where Yale is located
31:35and students would interact and
31:37sometimes you'd meet other students from
31:38other universities. And um
31:42>> [laughter]
31:42>> sometimes the male students, we're
31:43talking speaking of lying, some of the
31:45male students who didn't go to Yale
31:46would tell girls, oh, I go to Yale. And
31:49if the girl went to Yale, uh she would
31:52ask the guy, oh, what college? And the
31:55guy would say, oh, I just said Yale,
31:57right? And this was kind of a test of,
31:59you know, if you really go here, you
32:00would be able to tell me one of the
32:01residential colleges you're based at,
32:02but that was I don't know if that's the
32:04explicit uh uh intent of having these
32:06colleges, but sometimes students would
32:08use that as a screening mechanism. Do
32:10you know this piece of information
32:13um so that I can evaluate, you know,
32:14what kind of person you are, how
32:15truthful you are, kind of thing.
32:17Um So, all of that falls under cultural
32:19capital. There's there's there's another
32:20form too uh uh what some anthropologists
32:23will call embodied capital.
32:25>> What is that?
32:25>> Uh which is um you're like literally
32:27your your health and your fitness. Um
32:30and so, if you are a healthy, fit,
32:32muscular person, we'd say, oh, you have
32:34a lot of embodied capital. Um and you
32:36are seeing this now where a lot of
32:38wealthy people become very interested in
32:41uh their health and their wellness and
32:42their fitness, which to me kind of goes
32:44to show that once you reach a certain
32:46level of achievement in your life, you
32:48want even more. How do you get it? Oh,
32:49I'm just going to become super jacked,
32:51super ripped, do the cold plunge, do the
32:53weightlifting, do all of these protocols
32:54to to look uh really fit. Which is which
32:57wasn't the case back in the day where it
32:59used to be that rich people were the
33:00lazy ones, right? You know, Thorstein
33:02Veblen wrote about the leisure class.
33:03These were people who ate a lot of food,
33:05went to these lavish banquets, um, you
33:07know, purchased you know, they they
33:09golfed, they just, you know,
33:10>> Quincy Adams talked about stupid stories
33:12of the world.
33:13>> Yeah, yeah. They would just kind of
33:14[laughter] kick back and smoke their
33:15cigar and and they they were the they
33:17were the fat ones. And today you have
33:19this inversion where now the richer you
33:20are, the more people are interested in
33:22health and wellness and fitness. Yeah.
33:24>> That is true. And recently
33:27world's biggest luxury company ended up
33:30acquiring Hydrow.
33:32LVMH.
33:33>> Huh.
33:34>> signals a lot of what
33:37the luxury people are interested in
33:39because or else the biggest luxury
33:41company won't acquire something which is
33:43related to fitness.
33:44>> Huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that that I
33:46mean that makes so much sense. That's
33:47kind of the final frontier. So one way
33:50that um
33:52you know, this this idea of signaling
33:53works, you know, we want to signal our
33:55status. We want to signal certain um
33:58uh
34:00certain kinds of information about
34:01ourselves. And you know, we're
34:04constantly leaking out information.
34:05We're signaling even when we don't know
34:07that we're signaling. And you know, with
34:10with fitness, um, this is a very hard to
34:12fake signal. The way the only way that
34:14the signaling as a as a concept and as a
34:16mechanism works is if they're honest.
34:18>> Mhm.
34:18>> Um
34:19and because we're constantly, you know,
34:21kind kind of gauging one another. You
34:22know, are you who you really say you
34:24are? You tell me certain things, but I'm
34:25not really going to believe you until I
34:27see evidence for it.
34:29And so, um, you know, you can tell me
34:31you're rich you're this, that, and the
34:33other. Um, and by now we know that there
34:35are ways to, um, you know, maybe you've
34:38seen some of this like like Instagram
34:39influencers who will,
34:41um, like pay for these like lavish, um,
34:44social media sets. It's like, you know,
34:45it looks like it's a private plane, but
34:47it's really just a TV set in LA
34:48somewhere and they're taking all these
34:50glamorous pictures and they put it
34:51online and it makes them look super
34:53successful. And so there are ways now to
34:55to, um, misrepresent yourself. Fitness
34:58is very hard to do this with. It's kind
35:00of the final frontier. Things are
35:01changing technologically with all the
35:02the treatments and so on. But, you know,
35:05still if you see someone who's muscular,
35:07who's glowing, who looks healthy, um,
35:10that is an indicator that they probably
35:12really are. They spend a lot of time at
35:13the gym, they're conscientious, they
35:15take care of their diet, they are
35:16focused on health and wellness. Um, you
35:18can't really buy, uh, a physically fit
35:21body, at least not yet.
35:22>> True. True. What do you think? What's
35:24the most
35:25rare
35:27and expensive cultural capital today?
35:30>> Oh, [clears throat] the most rare and
35:31expensive form of cultural capital.
35:34Um,
35:35gosh, there
35:37people may disagree with me on this.
35:39There there's one
35:40There's one that immediately comes to
35:41mind. Um,
35:43I'm thinking about this quote from, uh,
35:45from Scott Galloway, uh, Galloway who
35:48few years ago, uh, he was at what I
35:51believe was an academic conference and
35:52he said something interesting which he
35:53said something like, um,
35:55the strongest brands in the world today
35:58are not Apple and Mercedes. The
36:00strongest brands in the world are
36:02Oxford, Harvard, Princeton, uh, these
36:05kinds of, uh, institutions of higher
36:08learning. Now, there's, you know, I I've
36:11written a lot of critiques about these
36:12kinds of elite institutions. I have my
36:15concerns with them. I think they've made
36:17a lot of missteps over the last few
36:19years. Um, but still, uh,
36:22they're they're hard to get into and
36:25they, especially for someone who grew up
36:26the way that I did, they can completely
36:28change the course of your life. And so,
36:31Paul you know, arguably education is
36:34because it's it's scarce by design
36:37um and because these name brands are
36:39recognized all over the world that
36:41arguably this is one uh
36:44of the rarest and most difficult and
36:46coveted forms of status is um
36:49attending one of these institutions or
36:50trying to get one of your kids into
36:52these institutions. You still see it.
36:54>> Do you think these rare clubs
36:56and membership clubs
36:58>> Mhm.
36:58>> are a strong form of cultural capital?
37:01Uh because that a lot of people can't
37:03get in even though I would argue that
37:05it's
37:06there are few
37:08clubs or membership
37:09>> Mhm. Mhm.
37:10>> kind of groups [clears throat]
37:11>> Mhm.
37:12>> or conferences or things that people do
37:13these like really large CEOs,
37:16billionaires, or
37:17top 0.001%
37:19people in the world or tech bros will
37:20actually attend and do and become part
37:22of.
37:23>> Mhm.
37:23>> That is way harder
37:25than even getting an Ivy League.
37:27>> That's true. Yeah, I mean so
37:29>> And that is becoming like something to
37:30talk about and then they talk about it
37:32all year.
37:33>> Haha.
37:34>> [laughter]
37:35>> One day conference and maybe I don't
37:37know Sun Valley or somewhere
37:38>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
37:39>> This what we doing or some club at
37:41Malibu Point which only 20 people are
37:43member of they'll just talk about that.
37:45>> I mean what I'm thinking about here Raj
37:47is there there kind of two forms of
37:49prestige. I don't you can think about
37:51these as cultural capital. So, there's
37:54um uh
37:55kind of classic prestige and lay
37:57prestige. So, um lay prestige is I tell
38:00you something I I I tell kind of anyone
38:03in society about this thing and they
38:04know what it is and they're impressed by
38:05it. Um so, yeah yeah yeah yeah I got to
38:08go to I go to Oxford or something like
38:09that. People know what that is and
38:10they're oh, that's very impressive.
38:12Classic prestige is
38:15um most more or less like kind of
38:17unknown by the typical person. So, oh I
38:19went to to fancy conference in Sun
38:21Valley or something, and only the
38:22insiders would know. So, maybe 95, 99%
38:26of the population would be unimpressed
38:28or have no idea what I'm talking about,
38:29but only insiders, you know, people who
38:31have heard of this conference and have
38:32always wanted to go, but they've never
38:33been, but they're kind of in proximity
38:35to the people who do attend, and would
38:37really like to go, and they know like
38:39part of the reason why it's so
38:40prestigious is because so few people
38:42know of it, and and uh so few people are
38:44able to get into it. Um
38:47So, that's that's one. And then the
38:48other one, as we're as we're speaking
38:49now, um I'm sure you've seen uh the
38:52survey data on Gen Z, how
38:55a lot of these surveys show that the
38:57number one most desired job is
38:59influencer.
39:01Young people want to be famous. And so,
39:03I think, yeah, having uh
39:05uh a large following online, a popular
39:07show, a popular podcast, um you know,
39:10being you know, famous or micro famous,
39:13uh internet celebrity type, um I think
39:16among young people that that might be,
39:19you know, at least as valuable if not
39:20more so than getting into the right
39:21college. I think if you talk to like an
39:23average 20-year-old today, would you
39:24rather be a super famous influencer or
39:26get into you know, one of these fancy
39:27colleges, I think I I think more of them
39:30would probably say influencer. Yeah.
39:32>> Because that will open more doors today.
39:35>> And you know, people are more impressed
39:37by it. I mean, it's it's it's harder,
39:38you know, there more people who get into
39:40an Ivy League school every year than uh
39:42blow up and become, you know, the number
39:44one podcaster in the world or the number
39:45one most followed person on Instagram.
39:48>> True. True. And I think the status might
39:52it keeps changing, right? It keeps
39:54changing. If you're
39:56an average person from a middle-class
39:57family from somewhere in the world,
39:59probably getting in the top most college
40:02of your country becomes status. If you
40:04are from the top most college, or if you
40:06have done at at least basic college,
40:08then the top college in the world
40:09becomes status for you. And once you are
40:12amongst the people who are everyone's a
40:13status, then these kind of clubs and
40:15conferences and fame and everything
40:16becomes like much bigger.
40:18>> Mhm. Mhm.
40:18>> So like someone who's not famous
40:21probably getting into million follower,
40:23two million follower, 10 million
40:24followers will be status for them.
40:25>> Mhm. Mhm.
40:26>> But amongst everyone who has 10 million
40:28followers, getting into that exclusive
40:30club becomes more status.
40:32>> Right. No, that's that's a great point
40:34and I think that, you know, that that
40:35relates to
40:36>> from context to context.
40:37>> [laughter]
40:38>> Well, that's the thing. We're we're
40:39never satisfied.
40:41Um especially the people who are the
40:43most interested in status.
40:45And I've I've had so many conversations
40:47with successful people. I know you have,
40:48too. Where, you know, I remember when I
40:50was just kind of um starting my writing
40:53career, I had this conversation um
40:55with this, you know, well-known doctor
40:57who became kind of a celebrity doctor.
41:00And uh I was talking to him and his wife
41:03over dinner and uh he was telling me,
41:06you know, Rob, like you think like, "Oh,
41:07once I, you know, once I write a book,
41:08once I do this, once I do that, I'll be
41:10satisfied." And he said, "I had this in
41:11my mind for years. You know, I graduated
41:13from medical school and I thought, you
41:14know, once I achieve this rank at this
41:16hospital, I'll be happy. Once I hit this
41:18number in my bank account, I'll be
41:20happy. Once I live in this neighborhood
41:22in this town, I'll be happy." And each
41:24time I hit that benchmark, I was like,
41:25"What's next? What's the next thing?
41:27What's next?" And his wife was sitting
41:28there nodding like, "Oh god, like you
41:30would always say like Yeah, yeah, I'd
41:32say like, "When are you going to come
41:32home? Like when are you going to spend
41:33more time with the kids, the family?"
41:35And and he would always say, "Once I do
41:36this, it'll be good. Once I hit this and
41:38and it always the the goal post kept
41:40moving."
41:41Um
41:41and yeah, I see this now where I'm
41:43around, you know, successful people and
41:46so much of the conversation is around
41:48They they don't explicitly say, "Hey
41:50guys, how do we become more successful?
41:51What's the secret to the" It's more so
41:53like, you know,
41:54"Yeah, what's next for you?" Or um you
41:56know, "What's your routine? How are you
41:57thinking about this strategy, marketing,
42:00publicity, this, that, and the other?"
42:02And so they're not outright saying like,
42:03"How are you boosting your status? What
42:04are the steps you're taking to be even
42:06more impressive than you are?" It's more
42:07so like, "Hey, walk me through how
42:08you're handling this or this." And but
42:10the the information is often more or or
42:13or at least partly about uh um
42:15you know, becoming more successful,
42:17right?
42:18>> That's
42:19that's true. I'm I'm thinking about all
42:22of these things and it's funny that
42:25I've never thought about
42:27once I achieve this and then I'll be
42:29happy
42:30>> Mhm.
42:30>> and I'll then retire.
42:31>> Mhm. Mhm.
42:31>> For me it's about the game.
42:33>> Ah, okay.
42:33>> Like
42:34>> That's probably the healthiest attitude.
42:35Wait, as long as you're being honest
42:36with yourself.
42:37>> Yeah, like I know at I don't think at
42:40any point
42:41>> Mhm.
42:41>> I will be very satisfied and be like,
42:43"Oh, now I'll retire and I'm happy."
42:45I've always been happy.
42:47>> Mhm. Okay.
42:48>> And then
42:48>> Okay.
42:48>> Always, I mean, like since last, let's
42:50say, 4 5 years.
42:51>> Okay.
42:52>> Right?
42:53But since I was 16, I knew that
42:55there's not a point, like there's
42:56nothing which will give me like eternal
42:59joy. I think just the pursuit of doing
43:02gives me maximum amount of joy. And I
43:03know there's no point that I'll think of
43:05retirement and then think of, "Okay,
43:07this is it." And was like I I don't lie.
43:10I don't myself because I know I
43:11won't do that.
43:12>> [laughter]
43:13>> No, that's great.
43:15>> At least I'm aware.
43:16>> And that's that's No, it it and it's I
43:18think that is a rare insight. There are
43:20people
43:22uh older than you would be who have this
43:24belief in that uh they they've never had
43:26that realization. They always have, "Oh,
43:28what's the next thing? Once I reach this
43:29point, then I can kind of ease off the
43:30gas and kind of take it easier or focus
43:33on other things." But um
43:35No, that's a
43:36that's a kind of an itch that can never
43:38be fully satisfied. There's a
43:40psychologist uh William von Hippel. He
43:43wrote a great book uh years ago called
43:45the the social leap. And it's an
43:48evolutionary psychology book, but he has
43:50this analogy, uh why is it that
43:53you
43:55achieve your desire, you get the gold
43:57medal, you get you know, you you get the
43:58award, you get the thing that you
43:59wanted, and most for most people, you
44:03know, they achieve this boost. They
44:04believe once they get it, they'll be
44:05happy. Then they do get it and they're
44:07like, "Wow, I'm as happy as I expected.
44:08Like, this is amazing. People are
44:10applauding, and I'm I have this
44:11impressive award or this thing, this
44:13milestone that I've achieved." And then,
44:15the days go by, the weeks go by, the
44:16months go go by, and suddenly, that uh
44:19excitement and that happiness has
44:20dissipated, and they're kind of back to
44:22their pre-success
44:24baseline. Um
44:27The analogy here is to getting into uh a
44:30hot tub or a bubble bath. Where you step
44:33in, and initially, you're like, "This
44:34feels good. It feels amazing. Like, I
44:36feel so tingly and warm." And then, 5
44:39minutes later, 10 minutes later, 20
44:40minutes later, it feels like nothing.
44:42You know, you're just sitting in the
44:43tub, and it doesn't feel like uh uh
44:46not nearly the same kind of feeling as
44:47when you first stepped in. And so, for
44:50that reason, we're constantly chasing uh
44:53uh a status.
44:54Um and the evolutionary logic here is
44:56that um if you go back tens of thousands
44:58of years ago,
45:00uh you know, maybe there were some
45:01humans who, you know, they did one uh
45:04impressive thing, they caught the fish,
45:06or they were able to navigate to the
45:07water, they did something, the community
45:09says, "Oh, we applaud you. Thank you so
45:11much. We give you some status for what
45:13you've done for us." Um and then, this
45:15person just sits back on their laurels,
45:17and, you know, doesn't ever do anything
45:19impressive again. They're permanently
45:20satisfied for their whole life. Um that
45:23person is going to be less likely to um
45:28>> [clears throat]
45:28>> reproduce, to find partners, to find al-
45:30allies, to um
45:32maintain that high reputation compared
45:34with someone who they do the one
45:36impressive thing, and they enjoy the
45:37applause, and they're like, "I got to
45:38get more of this. I like what's the next
45:40thing I got to do?" And they just keep
45:41chasing it and keep doing more
45:43impressive things because uh they enjoy
45:45the approval of their community.
45:47>> That is That is so true. But But I'm
45:49good like that.
45:50>> I am, too.
45:50>> I'm good like that because the
45:53anticipation of achievement makes me way
45:55more happier than achievement.
45:57>> Oh. Oh, wow. Okay, I wish I had that.
46:00Like, I I enjoy the antici- You know, as
46:01I become more aware of it, but the
46:02achievement itself is still
46:04>> [laughter]
46:04>> I still I still like a good
46:05>> For me the it's the anticipation. It's
46:07It's when I'm filling the tub.
46:09Not the tub, when I'm getting into the
46:11hot bubble tub.
46:12>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so so it's like
46:14right before you dip your toe and you're
46:15like I'm feeling amazing.
46:16>> the tub, right? Like the the tap is on,
46:18I can see the bubbles coming in, going
46:19up. All that
46:21>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:21>> Like 20 minutes later I'm going to be in
46:23it. That gives me the maximum anti like
46:25happiness. And the moment I'm going to
46:27do it I think, yeah.
46:28>> Yeah.
46:29>> Okay, so here's what I'm going to do.
46:30I'm going to give you five things
46:32>> Okay.
46:32>> which are traditionally linked to high
46:35status,
46:36>> Mhm.
46:36>> materialistic goods.
46:38>> Mhm. Mhm.
46:38>> [clears throat]
46:38>> What do you think where do they stand
46:40today? Rank them as per today's status.
46:42>> So from like one to five?
46:43>> Yeah, one to five. Okay, so I'm going to
46:45just going to put it here. All right. So
46:47it's like education, luxury goods,
46:50relationships, properties, and money.
46:53>> Okay.
46:53>> So what in today's world? Because
46:55>> Yeah.
46:56Let me
46:56>> Firstly, it used to be money, then it
46:58became property.
47:00>> Okay.
47:00>> Then recent times it became luxury
47:02goods. Education was always there, but
47:05never like the primary driver.
47:07>> Mhm.
47:08>> Right? But [clears throat] today I think
47:09it's changing. So
47:10>> Yeah.
47:11>> What do you think is
47:12the biggest signal of status today?
47:15>> Yeah, this is this is interesting
47:16because in in in a way, Raj, I almost
47:18want to like, let me see here. I almost
47:20want to do something like this, you
47:22know, cuz these are all kind of tied
47:23together.
47:25Um
47:25so but but if we have to if we have to
47:27rank them
47:28>> different, right? Like they're
47:30There can be people who
47:32>> Like inherit properties
47:33>> Like no, no,
47:34like they they would think that putting
47:37all their wealth in making a grand house
47:40and properties is status. And there are
47:42people who are like, I'm living in a
47:43modest apartment, but then everything
47:45that I wear from top to bottom is rare
47:47watches and then rare this and I drink
47:49the fancy wine and then all that
47:51like that's luxury goods and show off
47:53signaling of luxury goods.
47:55>> Yeah.
47:56>> So they can be like two different
47:57things. Yeah. Well, I mean
47:59in in in the context we're in New York
48:01right now, the US as a whole there's
48:02this ongoing discussion around housing
48:04costs.
48:06Um
48:07and so I think at least among young
48:09people I'm I'm actually you know, I'm
48:12I'm tempted to to put the property at
48:14number one because
48:15>> status?
48:15>> because it's so hard now. So so you
48:18know, I'm thinking mostly about young
48:19people let's say like under 40 under 30
48:22under 40
48:23>> that having a home now is because it's
48:25so rare. Very few people I don't know
48:28what the average age of home ownership
48:29now, but it keeps creeping up. It used
48:31to be you know back in the 1970s
48:34uh you know, couples would get married
48:35in their early 20s and buy a home and
48:37now it's so inordinately expensive.
48:39>> Yes.
48:39>> So I'm thinking this might be number
48:41one.
48:42>> So you think for a young person
48:44>> Yeah.
48:44>> highest amount of
48:46status
48:47>> Yeah.
48:48>> is
48:49shown through properties? Like if you
48:51have like a crazy ass big apartment.
48:55>> [laughter]
48:56>> Especially if you own it.
48:57>> Yeah. Like if you own like a Central
48:59Park
48:59>> Yeah.
49:00>> in front of a Central Park like a large
49:01penthouse.
49:02>> Yeah.
49:03>> You know.
49:04>> I'm playing out the scenario in my mind.
49:05So I'm talking to a 26-year-old guy and
49:07he tells me oh I have some money, I have
49:09relationships, I have a nice watch, I
49:11went to a good school.
49:12Um and I was oh that's great. But if he
49:14tells me, you know,
49:15he's started saving when he was a kid
49:18and then worked really hard and made
49:19some good decisions and you know, maybe
49:21had some help from his family and he has
49:22a house. That is much more rare than
49:25it's far rarer to meet a young person um
49:28say you know, reasonably kind of the
49:30youngest you could possibly expect this
49:32probably mid-late 20s at the very
49:34earliest to buy a house. Um and if you
49:36tell me that I'd be like wow, okay. Like
49:37that's great. And you know, of course
49:39like the value of the home will
49:40appreciate in a way that maybe the value
49:42of of an expensive watch wouldn't. Um
49:46or in the way that that you know,
49:47getting getting a degree wouldn't. So
49:48I'm I'm tempted to put that as number
49:50one of of having a house having a
49:52property simply because it's so rare
49:55um
49:56and then okay
49:58if we're thinking about
50:01>> [clears throat]
50:03>> okay, I would probably put relationships
50:06if we're we're talking specifically
50:07about marriage number two
50:09um
50:10>> I was not this as well.
50:11>> Yes, yeah, I'm
50:13I'm not quite tempted to flip it almost
50:16um because they're more probably more
50:17married people than people who own homes
50:20but
50:21there has been a lot of discussion and I
50:24have contributed to you know writing
50:25articles and so on talking about how
50:27marriage is increasingly a status
50:29symbol. Um if you look at the patterns
50:33uh in the United States
50:35um
50:35and I would guess you know this is
50:36probably true in many other countries as
50:38well
50:39that marriage used to be this very
50:42accessible institution. Everyone got
50:44married rich people and poor people
50:46alike um is very common. So
50:49yeah, there there's been this discussion
50:51of marriage as a status symbol because
50:52when you look at
50:54um who tends to get married now, it
50:56tends to be people who are educated,
50:59people who are successful and so on that
51:01um you know marriage is increasingly
51:04seen as this capstone in one's life of
51:06you know, I've achieved everything in my
51:08career. I'm on the right track then you
51:10meet someone and you get married and
51:12people say that um
51:15the reason why if you were people are
51:17getting married now is because it's
51:18prohibitively expensive
51:21uh which I find um
51:23hard to believe because if you look at
51:25developing countries
51:27um some of these places marriage rates
51:29are higher than they are in the US and
51:30then when you look at the history of the
51:32United States back when the US was much
51:34poorer the marriage rates were higher um
51:37so you know materially speaking in many
51:39ways we're we're wealthier than we've
51:40ever been but the marriage rates are
51:43lower and the people who continue to get
51:44married are uh affluent people and you
51:47see this now with um um
51:50you know, it's so hard now for people to
51:51find steady committed relationships and
51:54there's a lot of uh I think kind of
51:56low-level envy and jealousy now of
51:58people who when they find someone it's
52:00like, you know, you can be happy for
52:02them but I'm seeing now increasingly
52:04among young people just like, "God, like
52:06well, you know, how how how do you like
52:07how did you find this person and how do
52:08I do it?" And there's this kind of, you
52:10know, negativity there.
52:12So, I would yeah, I think I would put
52:15>> Relationships.
52:16>> Yeah, committed a committed relationship
52:17but not like not a situationship, not
52:19like, you know, I'm talking about like
52:20we're married kind of thing at number
52:22two. Number three
52:25Mhm.
52:27Mhm. I think I would still yeah,
52:28education here
52:30is I think generally education is still
52:33seen as a pathway to get these two
52:34things, right? To get money and luxury
52:37goods. Not always and things are
52:38changing but for the most part people
52:41think of education as a stepping stone
52:43toward
52:45um
52:45improving their prospects materially.
52:48>> You think there'd be more people owning
52:51luxury goods than
52:53who have been to
52:55let's say a good good college.
52:57>> Uh yeah, I think I think that's right.
52:59>> Are you calling good college or are you
53:00calling this prestigious college? Those
53:02are like two very different things.
53:03>> [laughter]
53:04>> Uh I mean I think I think just education
53:06in general um yeah, like higher
53:08education college, university, that kind
53:10of thing.
53:11Um but yeah, I would say, you know, kind
53:13of any any
53:15well-known good college doesn't have to
53:18be the most prestigious but I think most
53:22young people still want to go to
53:23college, they still long for it and not
53:26not just for
53:28material goods but also because it shows
53:31you kind of like what type of person you
53:32are, you know,
53:34education signals so many um underlying
53:38attributes, your level of aptitude,
53:41intelligence,
53:42um
53:43Conscientiousness, can you stick to
53:45something? Can you complete it?
53:47Um
53:48which like, you know, depends on the
53:49field you're you're in um and what you
53:51want to do, but those are still
53:54generally valued traits.
53:57So,
53:58>> That's three.
53:58>> Yeah.
53:59Four.
54:01Hm.
54:04Hm,
54:05I would Yeah, probably the goods and
54:07then money last, which I know is it's a
54:09little counterintuitive, but I would say
54:11So, the reason is because
54:14it's not that anyone can get money,
54:16but it's easier to accumulate capital
54:20than it is to
54:22um
54:23have good taste.
54:24And so, just because you have money
54:26doesn't mean you have taste. So, I'm
54:27thinking of luxury goods here. This
54:29isn't just, I don't know, a knockoff uh
54:32it's a piece of good.
54:33>> branded logo t-shirts.
54:35>> Yeah.
54:36It doesn't just say, you know, Gucci
54:37across my chest or something. [laughter]
54:39It's, you know, I'm I'm thinking of this
54:40as like a tasteful piece of uh of uh you
54:44know, jewelry or a watch or whatever,
54:46handbag, um sports car.
54:49And
54:51there are there are kind of um
54:54higher and lower ways to exhibit your
54:57taste through material goods. So, yeah,
54:58if you're very flashy, you're very
54:59gaudy, you're wearing, you know, logos
55:01and brand names and everything, you're
55:02driving a really loud, flashy, expensive
55:05car.
55:06Um you know, people will know that you
55:08have money when you do that or they'll
55:09suspect you have money.
55:11Um but that that won't always convert
55:14into that person's high status. It could
55:15also just be like, that person's kind of
55:17trashy. That person's kind of like, you
55:19know,
55:20um
55:20>> I think it signals that these days more
55:22than
55:23>> Yeah.
55:24>> Like
55:25these days, if you're like very flashy,
55:28I don't think you're considered high
55:29status. I think that's changing.
55:31>> Yeah, there's this
55:31>> It used to be like that. It used to be
55:33that if you're rich and you've made some
55:35money, you want to be flashy, you'll
55:37wear all logos all around you, buy the
55:40most expensive watches, and drive like
55:43fancy as hell cars with weird colors.
55:46>> Yeah.
55:47>> Now,
55:48it's like it I think it's changing. I
55:50think quiet luxury gives you much higher
55:53status than loud luxury.
55:55>> Yeah. No, agreed. Yeah, and the quiet
55:58luxury is interesting. So, I you know, I
55:59didn't grow up in this world and I come
56:01to New York and I'm hanging out with
56:02friends who grew up in and I'll see
56:03someone and to me the guy is just
56:05wearing a t-shirt. It looks like a
56:06t-shirt. And then my friend leans over
56:08and he's like, "Oh, no, that that
56:09t-shirt costs like $400. It's from this
56:11brand. It's this, that, and the other."
56:12And I'm like, "How do you even know all
56:13of this?" Like, that's just a t- It's a
56:15black t-shirt. But, because of the
56:17design or the stitching or there's like
56:19a very subtle tiny logo, barely
56:21perceptible, they can pick up on all
56:23these things. Um
56:24>> Or just by the quality of
56:27the material or cashmere, you can find
56:29that.
56:29>> Right. Yeah. And if you didn't grow up
56:30around it, you don't know, right? And
56:32so, I think that's why I would rank this
56:34higher than money because you can get
56:35money, but then you have to be able to
56:36convert it in a tasteful way to some
56:39kind of quiet luxury. There's also like,
56:41you know, stories of uh if you want to
56:44get in certain kinds of handbags,
56:45certain kinds of jewelry, um
56:48you have to build a relationship first
56:50with the company
56:52>> uh before they will allow you access to
56:53those goods. Um
56:55and so, you know, I think yeah, this is
56:57uh maybe counterintuitive, but I would
56:58put money literally last.
57:01Um but, the thing is you know, you can
57:02get the money and then and then you need
57:04to you know, if you want to raise your
57:05status, you have to sort of play these
57:06other games well of you know, you know,
57:08understanding how to buy properties and
57:10what to do and then navigating
57:12relationships. I've met so many guys,
57:14Raj, with relationships. Um
57:16they you know, these are successful
57:18guys. They've gone to the right
57:19colleges, they did made all the right
57:21steps in their career, and now they're
57:23in their 30s and they've done some
57:25casual dating here and there, but
57:27they're like, you know, I tried to meet
57:28someone, I did the apps, I did this, and
57:29I'm like realizing, "Oh, this is a
57:31full-time job." Like, that's where we
57:33are now in society where it used to be
57:35you would just kind of live your life
57:36and relationships would just kind of
57:38fall into place. You'd meet someone, you
57:39go on a couple dates, you make each
57:41other laugh, and you get married, or
57:42whatever. I'm simplifying. Now, if you
57:44try this, you know, let's just see what
57:46happens approach, you could be single
57:48forever.
57:49Uh and so now I talk to young guys who
57:51on paper are doing very well and they're
57:52like, "Oh, I took, you know, I took 6
57:54months off. You know, I had a successful
57:56exit. I took 6 months off and now I'm
57:58just like How do I, you know, I hired a
58:00dating coach, whatever this, that, and
58:02the other." And these are not like, you
58:04know, incels. They're not like the
58:06bad-looking guys. They're they're
58:08they're fine, but they are just um
58:10realizing that to find a compatible
58:12suitable partner,
58:13um you know, it takes effort, it takes
58:15strategy, it takes planning. Um and so,
58:18you know, that's why that's why I put
58:19this here. So.
58:21>> I also believe
58:22not believe, I just got to know this
58:25very recently in last couple of years
58:27that
58:28for a lot of rich people
58:30finding a partner is not about
58:32compatibility, is it has to do a lot
58:34more with status.
58:36>> Meaning the status of the partner or
58:39>> it adds up to their status or reduces
58:41their status.
58:43>> Ah, so it's like I'm not marrying this
58:45person because I like them or cuz we get
58:47along, it's because how is this going to
58:49look to other people?
58:51Or how is this person going to help me
58:52in my career kind of thing?
58:54>> And more than that, so there was a study
58:56done by um I think some
58:59some society in America.
59:01They found out that majority of men,
59:04they marry a partner and their status
59:07goes up and down based on how pretty
59:09their partner is when they enter the
59:10room.
59:11Right? Um majority of women, their
59:14status in their feeling goes up and down
59:16based on how powerful the man is with
59:18them.
59:19>> Right.
59:19>> So when you enter a room and you're
59:21entering with, let's say
59:24a man who's a loser amongst all the
59:26other friends and all the other friends
59:27are doing really well in their careers.
59:29The women automatically will start
59:30feeling low status no matter where women
59:32is in her in her career.
59:33>> Mhm.
59:34>> And similarly, when a man enters, no
59:37matter how secure and
59:39great and successful the man is, the
59:41moment they enter a room and they he
59:43feels that probably his partner is not
59:45as good looking as the other friend's
59:48partner, he will start feeling low
59:49status.
59:50>> Ah.
59:51>> of people report. I'm not saying
59:52>> Yeah.
59:53>> this is
59:54like thumb rule, but majority people
59:56have that. Only minority people are very
59:58secure with the relationships and they
1:00:00see other partners as compatibility.
1:00:02>> Mhm.
1:00:02>> Majority of them see this as status.
1:00:04>> Interesting.
1:00:05>> And it is you always happen in the rich
1:00:07class, right?
1:00:07>> Yeah, yeah.
1:00:08>> The rich, classy families, all these
1:00:12elite class families will only marry
1:00:14their kids into other elite class
1:00:15families. They wouldn't marry anyone
1:00:17from low status, which they perceive is
1:00:19a low status. Or somebody who from who
1:00:22comes from family wealth
1:00:24wouldn't want their kids to be married
1:00:25to someone who's who's first generation
1:00:27wealth. You know, like there are so many
1:00:29combination and permutation combination
1:00:31these guys play around. And it's all
1:00:32about status and it's coming down to a
1:00:34lot of young people as well. It used to
1:00:35be a rich people's game. Now it's
1:00:36everybody's game.
1:00:37>> That makes so much sense. Yeah, no, no,
1:00:39I was I was thinking about this
1:00:40yesterday. There are historical
1:00:41precedents to this where
1:00:43I was kind of explicit of, you know,
1:00:45this is a good family, that's a bad
1:00:46family. You're going to marry someone
1:00:47from this kind of, you know, place, this
1:00:49kind of school, this kind of,
1:00:51you know, background. And, you know, now
1:00:54people don't talk about this in polite
1:00:56society in such transparent terms of,
1:00:59oh, you can't marry this person or I
1:01:00don't want to marry her because she's
1:01:02not rich enough or I don't want to marry
1:01:03him because he doesn't come from the
1:01:04right family or whatever.
1:01:06Um, but that mentality is still
1:01:09simmering under the surface. You can see
1:01:10this through, um, this is often
1:01:13referred to as assortative mating where
1:01:15birds of a feather flock together. We
1:01:17tend to marry people who are similar to
1:01:18ourselves. And
1:01:21what's interesting is that, you know,
1:01:22psychologists who are interested in
1:01:23mating and relationships, they look at
1:01:25what are the predictors of two people
1:01:26getting together and they look at
1:01:28physicality, you know, height and
1:01:29weight, appearance, those things have
1:01:31some effect. They look at personality
1:01:33traits, they have some effect, too. But
1:01:35the the number one factor
1:01:38or the strongest correlation between two
1:01:40people
1:01:41when they get married is education
1:01:42level. So, people who go to selective
1:01:46colleges, elite colleges tend to they're
1:01:48far more likely to marry one another
1:01:49than they are to marry someone else. And
1:01:50then and then but but then college in
1:01:52general, college graduates
1:01:54overwhelmingly marry other people who
1:01:56have at least a bachelor's degree and
1:01:57then people who don't go to college are
1:01:59more likely to marry people who, you
1:02:00know, don't have bachelor's degrees. Um
1:02:03I once wrote this piece on my Substack
1:02:05called The Hidden Marriage Market where
1:02:06I claimed that that's what a lot of that
1:02:09that's like one um unspoken function of
1:02:13the university system. Um
1:02:16you know, because you could imagine uh
1:02:17you know,
1:02:18I have a son or a daughter and I want
1:02:20and I'm evaluating suitors for this
1:02:22person
1:02:24um and I ask all of the suitors, all of
1:02:25the people who are interested in dating
1:02:26my, you know, my kid,
1:02:28um I need you to submit your IQ scores.
1:02:33I need all of you to submit um three
1:02:36recommendation letters from people who
1:02:38can attest to your character and your
1:02:39values. I need you to write a personal
1:02:41statement about your ambitions in your
1:02:43life. Um and then we're going to have an
1:02:46interview with you. That's literally
1:02:48what colleges do.
1:02:48>> Yeah.
1:02:49>> Right, colleges do those things. They
1:02:50give you a standardized test, they look
1:02:51at that your academic record, they ask
1:02:53for um your your family income, too.
1:02:55They like your family has to submit
1:02:57their income. Um
1:02:58and and yeah, recommendations and your
1:03:00own personal statement and then you do
1:03:02the interview. And so, by the time these
1:03:03people enter the campus, they've passed
1:03:05through this intense screening mechanism
1:03:07and now you're around all of these
1:03:09people who are the same age as you,
1:03:11roughly the same social class, level of
1:03:12intellect, interest, and so on. And even
1:03:15if they don't like get married while
1:03:16they're in college, they go off into
1:03:18their careers and are mostly around
1:03:20other people like themselves.
1:03:22Uh and so my claim here was just that,
1:03:24you know,
1:03:25official arranged marriages
1:03:29um in the US don't exist anymore, but we
1:03:31have this implicit soft kind of
1:03:34inadvertent version of this with the
1:03:36education system. And I think that this
1:03:38is one,
1:03:39you know, unspoken reason why
1:03:42um upper middle class and rich parents
1:03:45try so furiously hard to get their kids
1:03:48into private schools and into elite
1:03:50universities. Part of it is for status,
1:03:52for career reasons, professional
1:03:53reasons, but another reason is because
1:03:56like I want my kid to marry someone who
1:03:58is also like they're thinking about
1:04:00status, right? Like I want someone who
1:04:02is an equivalent social rank to our
1:04:04family.
1:04:05>> Let me in middle of everything, you used
1:04:08the word called luxury belief. What are
1:04:10luxury beliefs?
1:04:11>> Luxury beliefs are ideas and opinions
1:04:15that confer status on the affluent while
1:04:19often inflicting costs on the less
1:04:21fortunate members of society.
1:04:24And a core feature of a luxury belief is
1:04:27that the believer is sheltered from the
1:04:29consequences of his or her belief. And
1:04:33so we've spoken about luxury goods, you
1:04:36you know, the elites of the past, they
1:04:38would exhibit status through loud
1:04:40luxury,
1:04:41um through their clothing and cars and
1:04:44fancy uh belongings.
1:04:46And now that, you know, goods are not
1:04:52seen in the same way anymore, material
1:04:53possessions, we're in the era of quiet
1:04:55luxury.
1:04:57Everyone can get an iPhone, everyone can
1:04:58go to an outlet and buy nice clothes.
1:05:01What is the way to exhibit your social
1:05:05rank?
1:05:06Uh now it's through luxury beliefs.
1:05:10Uh and so if you
1:05:13historically [clears throat] wanted to
1:05:14distinguish yourself from the masses,
1:05:16from the commoners, you would dress in a
1:05:18certain way, for example. Now, if you
1:05:20want to distinguish yourself from the
1:05:21masses, you express an unconventional,
1:05:24atypical, peculiar opinion that to most
1:05:28people would sound strange, peculiar,
1:05:31maybe crazy,
1:05:32but to your own social circle it makes
1:05:34you seem interesting, educated,
1:05:36sophisticated, compassionate.
1:05:39Um
1:05:39>> Give me an example.
1:05:40>> So one example of a luxury belief
1:05:44is the defund the police movement here
1:05:46in the United States. So defund the
1:05:48police was extremely popular among
1:05:51elites in the US from 2020 to 2021, that
1:05:56era. Uh there was this massive push
1:05:59against law enforcement. There were some
1:06:01cities that did reduce funding for
1:06:04police in the wake of this movement.
1:06:06There was a famous headline in the New
1:06:08York Times that said, "Yes, we literally
1:06:11mean abolish the police."
1:06:13And
1:06:14you know, I was on social media. We were
1:06:16That was it was kind of during the COVID
1:06:18lockdown period. I was sitting there
1:06:21scrolling like everyone else and I'm
1:06:23like, "How is this like How is this even
1:06:25>> a thing
1:06:26>> a discussion? Obviously, we need
1:06:28police." I grew up poor, like I you
1:06:29know,
1:06:30when I was a young guy, I didn't like
1:06:31the cops that much, but sometimes I
1:06:33liked having the cops, you know, kind of
1:06:34depends like are you the one in danger
1:06:35or you the one causing the danger?
1:06:37>> [laughter]
1:06:37>> Uh whether you want the cops around. Um
1:06:40but sometimes it was good to have cops
1:06:41around, especially in a poor
1:06:42neighborhood where there's a lot of
1:06:44people who misbehave and could
1:06:46potentially threaten you.
1:06:48It's especially important for um elderly
1:06:50people and for women to have cops
1:06:52around. Um
1:06:54and so I was looking at this the the
1:06:56headlines and the posts online and the
1:06:58news articles, the opinion pieces.
1:07:01And then I was looking at the survey
1:07:02data. You know, I was you know
1:07:04waist-deep in my PhD program, you know,
1:07:07social scientist. Okay, well, you know,
1:07:08what did the actual data say? What is
1:07:10public opinion on this discussion of
1:07:11defund the police?
1:07:13Overwhelmingly, most Americans were
1:07:14against it. But then when you broke down
1:07:16the responses, should we defund the
1:07:18police? Break down the responses by
1:07:20income category, it was always the the
1:07:22highest income Americans were always the
1:07:24most in favor of defunding the police.
1:07:25The lowest income Americans were always
1:07:27the least in favor. And then when you
1:07:28broke it down by political orientation
1:07:31and by race,
1:07:33it was always white progressives who
1:07:35were the most in favor of defunding the
1:07:36police.
1:07:37Black and Hispanic Democrats much less
1:07:38in favor of it. Asian Americans much
1:07:41less in favor. It was you know, people
1:07:43who were
1:07:45you know, to use their kind of like
1:07:46privileged. You know, people who were
1:07:48educated, had six-figure incomes, who
1:07:51were advantage in many ways. They lived
1:07:54in gated communities, safe
1:07:56neighborhoods, and they were not
1:07:59threatened by crime, but
1:08:01a lot of these neighborhoods during that
1:08:03same period when funding for police
1:08:06declined and the attitude around law
1:08:07enforcement became more hostile,
1:08:10you would read about how rich
1:08:11neighborhoods in Chicago, they were
1:08:14hiring off-duty cops to patrol their
1:08:15neighborhoods.
1:08:17You read about how
1:08:18people in Manhattan were fleeing to the
1:08:20Hamptons because things got a little bit
1:08:22disorderly here and the police weren't
1:08:24enforcing the law. So, these a lot of
1:08:26these people who publicly would say, "We
1:08:28need to rethink policing. We need to
1:08:29remove law enforcement." And then they
1:08:31hire their off-duty security guards,
1:08:33police. They would go to their you know,
1:08:35safe place in the Hamptons. They would
1:08:36find places where they could remain
1:08:37safe.
1:08:39There are other examples of luxury
1:08:41beliefs. You know, I you mentioned tech
1:08:43bros. I have a lot of tech bro friends,
1:08:44too, but I have sometimes been hard on
1:08:47them
1:08:48because you know, there is an example of
1:08:50a luxury belief among a lot of the tech
1:08:52titans, which is um
1:08:55they publicly have profited
1:09:00by advertising addictive technologies.
1:09:03Um, you know, phones, apps, social
1:09:06media, all of these kinds of things.
1:09:08Um, they have elevated their status,
1:09:10their visibility, their wealth.
1:09:12Um, but then when you look at their own
1:09:14personal lives, a lot of them exercise
1:09:16very strict control over their
1:09:18themselves and their own families for
1:09:19how much they use these devices.
1:09:21Um, Steve Jobs famously would not allow
1:09:23his children to use iPads. Um, and now
1:09:26you go to, you know, kind of any
1:09:27restaurant, especially in a restaurant
1:09:29in a low-income part of the US, and you
1:09:31see toddlers with, you know, they're
1:09:33glued to their iPad.
1:09:35Um,
1:09:36and you see this borne out in the survey
1:09:38data that children in families that earn
1:09:41less than $50,000 a year spend twice as
1:09:44much time on their devices as children
1:09:47in families that earn more than $100,000
1:09:49a year. So, it's the difference between
1:09:513 hours a day for those high-income
1:09:53families, kids spend about 3 hours a day
1:09:55on their devices. For low-income
1:09:56families, kids spend about 6 hours a day
1:09:58on their devices. In my book, Troubled,
1:10:00I write about, um, you know, what I
1:10:02think of as, um,
1:10:04maybe
1:10:05the most,
1:10:07um,
1:10:08uh, the most important, the most, uh,
1:10:10damaging luxury belief, which is, uh,
1:10:14this increasing,
1:10:16uh, increasingly relaxed and permissive
1:10:19attitude around the family,
1:10:22um, and marriage. So,
1:10:25you know, if you look at the outcomes
1:10:27for children raised in fragmented,
1:10:31unstable, deprived, dysfunctional homes,
1:10:35um, those kids have far worse outcomes
1:10:37than children raised in intact,
1:10:40two-parent, married homes. Uh, and yet,
1:10:43um, when you look at the survey data and
1:10:45you ask representative samples of
1:10:48Americans, um,
1:10:50you know, is it important for, um,
1:10:52the parents to be married before they
1:10:54have kids? Uh, high-income people are,
1:10:56um, the least likely to say yes. They're
1:10:58the most outwardly skeptical of marriage
1:11:01as an institution. I had these
1:11:03conversations with
1:11:05classmates at Yale for example, where
1:11:08they would say um
1:11:09you know, marriage is this outdated
1:11:11patriarchal institution. It's this thing
1:11:13some of them, you know, the more sort of
1:11:15feminist
1:11:16oriented ones would say it was this
1:11:17institution that men created to control
1:11:19women or something or it's this
1:11:20retrograde backwards
1:11:22primitive construct that we need to
1:11:25evolve beyond.
1:11:27We need to rethink or dismantle
1:11:29marriage. And then I would ask them,
1:11:31"How were you raised personally in your
1:11:33own life?" And overwhelmingly it was,
1:11:36you know, I was raised by my mom and dad
1:11:38in a two-parent home. They got married.
1:11:40And then I would ask, "How do you plan
1:11:42to you know, raise your own kids? Are
1:11:44you planning to have a family? What are
1:11:45you going to do in your life?" And they
1:11:48would say, "Look, I was raised by my mom
1:11:50and dad. I'd get married, have kids.
1:11:51I'll probably do the same for my kids.
1:11:54Um but personally I think like we do
1:11:56need to rethink this institution and get
1:11:58past it. And what I what I was hearing
1:12:01Raj as someone who didn't grow up with a
1:12:03family.
1:12:04Um
1:12:05not with any permanent family.
1:12:08These you know, these people at this
1:12:10elite college, they were saying, "I
1:12:13benefited from this institution marriage
1:12:16that allowed me to study at a place like
1:12:18Yale. I plan to carry this benefit
1:12:20forward for my own kids.
1:12:22But my official public position is we
1:12:25shouldn't do this thing. We should get
1:12:26past it. Don't don't do this." All
1:12:28right, so how does this actually work?
1:12:30You know, you have these elites, you
1:12:32have the luxury belief class. They're
1:12:33espousing all of these ideas. But how
1:12:36does that actually affect behavior? Like
1:12:38how is it that, you know, some, you
1:12:41know,
1:12:41rich educated person says something and
1:12:44then people in a poor neighborhood, like
1:12:46how does it change their behavior? What
1:12:47is the mechanism here?
1:12:49And
1:12:51there's a lot of interesting research on
1:12:54how the behavior and the attitudes and
1:12:57the expressed opinions of elites do
1:12:59change policy, change culture, change
1:13:02attitudes. But I like to
1:13:05I like to just give people a concrete
1:13:07example of how luxury beliefs might
1:13:09work.
1:13:10Um
1:13:11you know, imagine, you know, we wake up
1:13:14tomorrow and you start to see
1:13:18you know, politicians, CEOs, founders,
1:13:21influencers, journalists, academics,
1:13:24people with some kind of a platform,
1:13:25some kind of influence,
1:13:27um a certain degree of prestige in
1:13:28society, and they all start voicing some
1:13:32version of the same idea, the same idea
1:13:35here being um
1:13:36littering isn't a big deal.
1:13:38>> Mhm.
1:13:38>> Um you know, we need to rethink
1:13:41littering.
1:13:43Um
1:13:43right now it's stigmatized, but maybe we
1:13:45should remove that stigma from
1:13:47littering.
1:13:48Um you know, you start reading in glossy
1:13:50magazine pieces or you see short-form
1:13:52video reels of you know, very
1:13:54high-profile people saying, you know, if
1:13:56you want to throw your trash out the
1:13:57window, it's totally fine. We need to
1:13:59stop judging people for this.
1:14:01Um you turn on your favorite television
1:14:04show on Netflix or whatever, and you're
1:14:06seeing the characters casually throw
1:14:08trash on the ground and keep moving. And
1:14:11you know, the the messaging seems to
1:14:13converge on this idea of either I'm
1:14:16it it's perfectly fine to litter or
1:14:19um you know,
1:14:21it's one choice among many. You want to
1:14:22litter, that's okay. You don't want to
1:14:24litter, that's fine, too. We should just
1:14:26stop judging people for doing this.
1:14:29Would anyone be surprised if
1:14:315 years from now, 10 years from now, a
1:14:33generation from now, you start seeing a
1:14:35divergence in terms of the cleanliness
1:14:38of different neighborhoods. You go to a
1:14:40rich neighborhood, still clean, still
1:14:42pristine, people are still taking care
1:14:44of their garbage in the usual way,
1:14:46throwing it in the trash can and
1:14:48recycling and everything. And then you
1:14:50go to the poor neighborhoods and you
1:14:52just see filth and squalor and trash
1:14:53everywhere. Well, that's that's the
1:14:55mechanism. That's how it works is, you
1:14:57know, people who, you know, come up with
1:14:59this uh interesting idea,
1:15:01non-judgmental, it makes you look
1:15:02interesting, compassionate, um
1:15:05there's a maybe there's even a bit of
1:15:06pleasure at provoking people.
1:15:09Um
1:15:10And
1:15:12this is a way of achieving distinction.
1:15:13Oh, the ordinary person says, "We should
1:15:16throw trash away in a bin and recycle."
1:15:19Well, you know, I'm going to say the
1:15:20opposite of that and it'll make me look
1:15:22different and you'll be able to know I'm
1:15:23not a normal commoner
1:15:25>> the opposite thing.
1:15:26>> Yes. And and so this is how it works
1:15:29with a lot of the luxury beliefs. Not
1:15:30all of them, but but many of them. Yeah.
1:15:33Um so I think this happened with
1:15:34marriage. I think it happened to some
1:15:36degree with um
1:15:38uh drug legalization, decriminalization.
1:15:41A lot of people believe uh that drug
1:15:44decriminalization is favored mostly by
1:15:46poor people. Actually, they're the least
1:15:47in favor of decriminalizing drugs
1:15:49because they live in the neighborhoods
1:15:51where there's a lot of drug use and a
1:15:52lot of squalor. Um whereas, you know,
1:15:55for a lot of rich people, they want to
1:15:56be compassionate and so they oh, let's
1:15:58just decriminalize it. They tried this
1:15:59experiment in Oregon and uh other places
1:16:03and
1:16:04you know, it just uh increased human
1:16:05suffering. Um
1:16:07so, you know, the the luxury beliefs
1:16:09idea to me is
1:16:11people are chasing status in a certain
1:16:13kind of way.
1:16:15And unlike the productive kinds of
1:16:18status games you and I were talking
1:16:19about before, the kinds with spillover
1:16:21benefits, you do this thing for selfish
1:16:23reasons, but other people are benefiting
1:16:24as a consequence. This is the inverse of
1:16:26that where I'm chasing status for
1:16:28selfish reasons and other people are
1:16:29being harmed. And that's actually to me
1:16:32um
1:16:33it's a toxic status game.
1:16:35>> You know, this gets me to a point. Tell
1:16:36me
1:16:39what kind of conversations on a dinner
1:16:41table people are having.
1:16:43What kind of conversations a person
1:16:44who's stuck and broke and probably is
1:16:47middle class not able to get out of this
1:16:50the situation where he or she is. What
1:16:52do they talk on a dinner table versus
1:16:55someone who's in top 1% already is an
1:16:57elite. What do they talk? Because a lot
1:17:00of things
1:17:01whether it's hypocrisy, seriousness,
1:17:04their
1:17:05attention, intention,
1:17:07or beliefs,
1:17:09all of this also will manifest into the
1:17:11kind of life that they're living, right?
1:17:12And the kind of conversation that they
1:17:14will do around all of these things
1:17:17might
1:17:18have some consequence or might have some
1:17:20effect on the success that they're going
1:17:22to achieve, right? So what kind of
1:17:23conversation these two different people
1:17:25are having?
1:17:26>> talking about like a middle class family
1:17:27and like a very wealthy
1:17:29>> who's stuck versus someone who's in the
1:17:31top 1%.
1:17:33I like bunch of these different things
1:17:35though.
1:17:35>> Okay. Okay.
1:17:36>> These are the topics.
1:17:37>> Okay, I see.
1:17:38>> I'd say someone who is
1:17:40>> stuck in 1%
1:17:42>> Interesting.
1:17:44Um
1:17:46I'm
1:17:49Okay, I'm going to assume this means
1:17:50formal education.
1:17:51Um not not just sort of
1:17:53>> of dinner table conversation these guys
1:17:55are having? So do you think Oh, the
1:17:56someone who's in middle class stuck
1:17:58they're talking about education?
1:17:59>> Right.
1:18:00>> Someone who's top 1% is gossiping?
1:18:02>> Yeah. Yeah. I I hear far more gossip
1:18:04among well-known people. I they yeah.
1:18:07It's uh you you maybe wouldn't
1:18:09necessarily expect it, but um no, the
1:18:12>> They are the ones who gossip more than
1:18:14you.
1:18:14>> The topics of yeah, who's doing what in
1:18:17their careers or who's dating who.
1:18:20Um I think it yeah, there's more gossip.
1:18:22Um
1:18:23>> In top 1%.
1:18:25>> Um
1:18:26status status. Um I think this would be
1:18:29a 1% uh discussion here.
1:18:35You know, the reason being as we've as
1:18:36we've discussed, um people who have lots
1:18:39of status are interested in obtaining
1:18:40more and even if that word itself
1:18:43doesn't come up, it is a lot of
1:18:44discussion around career, success,
1:18:47investments, properties, what's next,
1:18:51you know, how's how's your company
1:18:52doing, how's your book doing, how's your
1:18:54thing going, how are your kids doing,
1:18:56kids are kind of a status symbol as
1:18:58well, how successful your kids are. Um
1:19:01>> Where did you go for vacation? What kind
1:19:02of things you're buying? What
1:19:04>> Exactly. What are you talking
1:19:05>> traveling this year?
1:19:06How much did your kid achieve?
1:19:08>> [snorts]
1:19:08>> Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, no, totally.
1:19:11Definitely more ideas here. I mean, I I
1:19:13I I think this is also So, ideas can be
1:19:15kind of intertwined with status, talking
1:19:16about interesting things, but also um
1:19:19Oh, people who are interested in ideas,
1:19:24um
1:19:25you know, they tend to be more
1:19:27uh
1:19:28introspective, thoughtful,
1:19:31um
1:19:32academically inclined, and all of those
1:19:34things also predict kind of professional
1:19:37success as well.
1:19:38Um and then often what I find uh
1:19:41around you know, like like founders and
1:19:43and people who have
1:19:45built a successful career, no longer
1:19:47have to worry about money, suddenly, you
1:19:49know, they're asking me for reading
1:19:50lists. You know, they'll see you know,
1:19:52something I post or something I've
1:19:53written about and you know, they'll
1:19:54email me or ask me, you know, like,
1:19:56"Hey, like, can you send me a reading
1:19:57list on this or this or that topic?" And
1:19:58it's not for um
1:20:00formal education reasons, it's for their
1:20:02own edification, their own
1:20:04self-development.
1:20:06Um they've done the thing in the
1:20:08professional career, now they want to
1:20:09develop themselves internally and learn
1:20:11about psychology or history or
1:20:12philosophy, literature.
1:20:14Failures. Ooh. Hmm.
1:20:18This is a tough one. I I'm So, I'm
1:20:20tempted to put it
1:20:23in
1:20:24maybe this side.
1:20:26>> Who talks about failure? Do you think
1:20:28the past traumas, the failures, oh, I
1:20:30failed here, I failed there, and I'm
1:20:32they're just always stuck in these
1:20:33conversations.
1:20:35Who's talking about that more?
1:20:36>> I think publicly
1:20:39I think there's a a public private
1:20:41difference here, and this is why I'm
1:20:42torn. So, publicly, I think the top 1%
1:20:44will talk about their failures more
1:20:46because it humanizes them.
1:20:47>> Okay.
1:20:48>> It makes them seem modest. It makes them
1:20:50seem relatable. You know, people love,
1:20:53you know, oh, like uh if uh I don't
1:20:55know, Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or
1:20:56someone super successful says, you know,
1:20:58hey, like when I applied for this job, I
1:20:59got rejected. When I tried this, I
1:21:01failed. You know, some
1:21:02>> Yeah, it was a visual show back then.
1:21:03Yeah.
1:21:03>> Yeah, visual show or yeah, like a a
1:21:06Sometimes I'll listen to podcasts with
1:21:07comedians, and they're hilarious, but
1:21:09they'll talk, you know, they'll talk
1:21:10about the early days, getting booed off
1:21:11the stage. Um and there's something, you
1:21:14know, just uh uh uh humanizing about
1:21:16hearing about that.
1:21:18But privately, I don't think they talk
1:21:19much about failure. Um I think it's the
1:21:22reverse
1:21:23among people who are not doing as well,
1:21:26where publicly, they don't want to talk
1:21:27about their failures. They want to
1:21:28conceal. They want you to think maybe
1:21:30they're doing better than they really
1:21:31are. But privately,
1:21:33uh among trusted friends or family, it
1:21:35is like, you know, how are we going to
1:21:37pay the bills? How are we going to make
1:21:39ends meet? Um
1:21:41relationship problems.
1:21:42>> Interesting.
1:21:43>> So, at a dinner table, these guys are
1:21:45talking. On a stage, these guys are
1:21:46talking.
1:21:47>> About failure, yes. Yeah, failure. Maybe
1:21:49Should I put it here?
1:21:50>> Yeah, put it in the middle here.
1:21:51>> Okay. Um debt. Oh, that's an interesting
1:21:55one. Um
1:21:56>> What is it?
1:21:57>> I think debt.
1:21:58>> Okay.
1:22:00>> Donald Trump loves to say like, I'm the
1:22:01king of debt. I love debt. But, you
1:22:03know, that's you know, for for
1:22:04business-related reasons, whereas like I
1:22:06think like kind of personal debt,
1:22:08credit card debt,
1:22:09>> Yeah.
1:22:09>> um that kind of thing is more people who
1:22:11are stuck. Health.
1:22:13Um
1:22:15I mean, there are probably more actual
1:22:17health challenges on this side. Um
1:22:21>> talking more about
1:22:23the
1:22:25negatives of health. These guys are
1:22:26talking more about optimizing the 1%
1:22:29athlete performance sort of health.
1:22:30>> Yeah, cuz I'm thinking here, you know,
1:22:32there's probably discussions around
1:22:34medical bills, insurance,
1:22:36illness-related things, but
1:22:40um
1:22:41I still you know, cuz I I still spend
1:22:44time around you know, family and friends
1:22:45that I grew up with and I'm just anec-
1:22:48you know, relying on anecdotes and
1:22:49personal experience. I still think
1:22:50health is more discussed.
1:22:52>> Double income.
1:22:52>> Yeah, the top 1%.
1:22:55Um
1:22:55>> Even I think so.
1:22:56>> Yeah, risks.
1:23:00Hm.
1:23:02Risk, risk, risk.
1:23:04I'll hold off on that one. All right,
1:23:05criticism.
1:23:07Uh so, is this like uh criticizing
1:23:09others? You know, like sort of related
1:23:11to the gossip uh
1:23:12>> Yeah.
1:23:13>> Okay. Um
1:23:15>> Or self-criticism.
1:23:16>> Self-criticism.
1:23:18Um hm hm.
1:23:22I think I would put it here, um
1:23:23criticism.
1:23:24>> Okay.
1:23:24>> Top 1%. Uh
1:23:26you know, discussing yeah, uh
1:23:28their failures or things that they're
1:23:30doing wrong or criticizing other people,
1:23:32employees or colleagues. Um cuz gossip
1:23:35[clears throat and snorts] would be
1:23:36>> Yeah, so maybe I should put next to the
1:23:38next to gossip.
1:23:40>> They complain.
1:23:40>> Yes, and more complaining.
1:23:43Relationships, probably here because
1:23:45there's more challenges around you know,
1:23:47when you when your relationship's happy,
1:23:48you don't talk about it. When you have
1:23:50options and that kind of
1:23:52>> stability is a big part of how good your
1:23:55relationship's going on.
1:23:56>> Yes, yeah. Oh, no, that's totally yeah,
1:23:58that's it smooths things out. It's one
1:24:00less thing you have to argue about.
1:24:03Job, probably here, you know, I mean
1:24:07>> Yeah, these guys are not talking about
1:24:08job for sure.
1:24:08>> Yeah, uh competition.
1:24:12Interesting.
1:24:13Oh, how would I put in competition? I
1:24:16mean, there's there's there's
1:24:17competition here to get jobs or to get
1:24:20um you know, valued resources, things
1:24:22that they couldn't otherwise get, but
1:24:24here, because competition is so tightly
1:24:27intertwined with status, I'm almost
1:24:28tempted to put it here.
1:24:30>> Yeah.
1:24:30>> Um, where they're more concerned with,
1:24:32um, yeah, their their uh competitors,
1:24:35who's getting ahead of them, who's doing
1:24:37better, who's doing worse, whose kids
1:24:38got into which school, and you know,
1:24:40what your kids, how are they doing?
1:24:43Identity.
1:24:45>> [sighs]
1:24:46>> I think it I think it would belong here
1:24:47as well.
1:24:48>> belief thing and all of those things.
1:24:50>> You know what's interesting, Raj, on the
1:24:51identity point? So,
1:24:53um, my biological mother, uh, was
1:24:57Korean, and she suffered from drug
1:25:00addiction. And I was born in LA.
1:25:02Uh, and she came to the US from Seoul.
1:25:04And I went my whole life not knowing my
1:25:06father's side. My father was Mexican,
1:25:08but I didn't learn that until later when
1:25:10I took a genetic ancestry test as an
1:25:11adult. But, I grew up in kind of a
1:25:14Hispanic and white working-class area in
1:25:17California, and I never once really
1:25:19thought much about like being
1:25:21Asian-American in any way.
1:25:24Um,
1:25:25it wasn't until I got to Yale,
1:25:27uh, that and there's a lot of Asians on
1:25:29campus and uh, suddenly like it became a
1:25:32question people would ask me about,
1:25:34like, how do you relate to being Korean
1:25:35or your Asian identity? Or like, you
1:25:38know, how attached do I feel? Uh, when I
1:25:41became a writer, outlets started editors
1:25:43would approach me, "Hey, there's this
1:25:45thing in the news about affirmative
1:25:46action or or, you know, the Asian
1:25:48students suing Harvard or this that and
1:25:49the Do you have anything to say about
1:25:50it?" And the issue around identity is
1:25:54far more, I think, among kind of
1:25:56upper-middle class and above of, you
1:25:58know,
1:25:59being preoccupied with this thing,
1:26:01taking pride in it, having um, an
1:26:03opinion about it. Whereas, I think,
1:26:05yeah, when you're stuck, when you're
1:26:07struggling, it's, you know, it's it's
1:26:08not unimportant, but you're more focused
1:26:11on, you know, survival, getting ahead,
1:26:13doing doing good well for yourself, and
1:26:15then trying to set your kids up for
1:26:17success and you don't have as much time
1:26:18to kind of navel gaze and think about,
1:26:21you know, these these broader abstract
1:26:23issues. Politics here.
1:26:26Uh it's much more uh dinner table
1:26:29conversation.
1:26:31You know what's funny about politics,
1:26:32Raj, is um
1:26:34you know, I grew up around poor and
1:26:36working class people and they thought
1:26:39and I remember I absorbed this both
1:26:41where I grew up and then later in the
1:26:42military too, there was this belief that
1:26:45um
1:26:46you know, to the elites politics is just
1:26:48a game. It doesn't matter who wins the
1:26:49presidency because the same people
1:26:51control the country anyway and they all
1:26:53want you know, they they make you think
1:26:55politics matters, but really, you know,
1:26:57whether whether this person or that
1:26:58person gets elected, this person or that
1:27:00person's in power in the end like, you
1:27:02know, it's the same people.
1:27:04Um
1:27:06and so it's kind of this
1:27:08uh smoke screen.
1:27:09And so I grew up thinking like, oh,
1:27:12elites don't care about politics because
1:27:13they all have power anyway. And then I
1:27:15start entering these elite institutions
1:27:17they're obsessed with politics. They're
1:27:19yeah, you know, we have all this
1:27:20education and income that correlate with
1:27:22likelihood of voting, likelihood of
1:27:23posting about politics online,
1:27:25um sending donations to favorite
1:27:27political candidates. It's way more
1:27:28politics is it's like literally the
1:27:30opposite of what I thought growing up is
1:27:32like actually the low information voter,
1:27:34the people who don't care about
1:27:35politics, they're lower income, less
1:27:37educated, whereas the higher up you go,
1:27:40the more likely you are to hear about
1:27:42people who are concerned and preoccupied
1:27:44with politics and speak about it a lot.
1:27:46Investments here.
1:27:48Uh
1:27:50and then I think uh just because um I
1:27:52feel like this side's so heavy and this
1:27:54side's so light. I mean, risk,
1:27:55[laughter]
1:27:56you know, it's it's I guess there are
1:27:58different ways of thinking about it.
1:27:59Like obviously I think like financial
1:28:01risk,
1:28:02maybe career risk here,
1:28:05but then in terms of like,
1:28:08you know, actual
1:28:10um
1:28:11impulsive risk taking, gambling, drug
1:28:15addiction, life risk, health risk, um
1:28:19you know, run-ins with law enforcement.
1:28:22Um there's a lot more kind of risk and
1:28:23discussion of risk here. You know, I had
1:28:25sort of friends and cousins and people
1:28:27who would take very um uns- you know,
1:28:30unsafe and and um
1:28:33foolhardy risks. Um and then that would
1:28:35often become a topic of conversation of
1:28:37>> So, tell me, if you look at this right
1:28:39now, what is one pattern you can
1:28:41understand about conversations which
1:28:44is being done on tables of
1:28:46top 1% versus what is one pattern here?
1:28:51>> Hm.
1:28:54We we I think these are generally more
1:28:56abstract and these are more concrete.
1:28:59Um this is more sort of how to get
1:29:02ahead, how to survive, how to take care
1:29:04of yourself and your family. Um and it's
1:29:07more
1:29:09um focused on on people, you know, I put
1:29:11relationships here.
1:29:13Whereas this one, it's focused more um
1:29:16it's kind of what? More individualistic
1:29:19and more abstract simultaneously, where
1:29:22there's more selfishness here about your
1:29:24own success and your own accomplishment
1:29:26and your own ways of getting ahead. Um
1:29:29but then it's also very distant from the
1:29:30person when you think about ideas and
1:29:32identity and politics. These are very
1:29:33abstract, distant things. Whereas here,
1:29:37um it's less sort of individualistic and
1:29:39selfish, but it is sort of about your
1:29:41own life and your relationships and the
1:29:43people around you.
1:29:45Um less about appearing
1:29:47important or
1:29:50um
1:29:51being seen in a certain way and more
1:29:53just sort of, you know, paddling, you
1:29:55know, sort of to to to stay afloat and
1:29:57and hopefully find ways to to get ahead.
1:30:00>> Do you think like this side is
1:30:03they mostly focus and talk about things
1:30:05which will affect them immediately or in
1:30:07a short term.
1:30:09And this side they don't.
1:30:11>> Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that makes it
1:30:12especially on this side that this is
1:30:14more sort of long-term, future-oriented,
1:30:16and this is more maybe present-oriented.
1:30:18>> Mhm.
1:30:19>> Um
1:30:20that yeah, there's uh
1:30:23more concerned with what's immediately
1:30:25in front of you. You're not thinking in
1:30:26terms of
1:30:28years or decades.
1:30:30Um whereas here, uh you know, people are
1:30:32they're thinking about their legacy or
1:30:34their children or their grandchildren
1:30:35setting up their their not just their
1:30:37futures, but the future for their
1:30:39um you know, their descendants.
1:30:41[clears throat]
1:30:42So
1:30:43>> Yeah.
1:30:44>> Yeah.
1:30:44>> Let's do a thought experiment. If we put
1:30:4710 people in one
1:30:49house
1:30:50for a month and we remove their
1:30:53job title, income, followers, status,
1:30:57education, nothing. We just take away
1:30:59their identities and all these things
1:31:00which give them status away
1:31:02[clears throat] from them and put them
1:31:03in one room for one house for a month.
1:31:08After the end of month, do you think
1:31:10people who are high status in real life
1:31:12will end up again rising to the top?
1:31:15>> Uh okay. So you you strip the person of
1:31:17all of their accomplishments and
1:31:19everything.
1:31:20>> Like don't tell them like everybody
1:31:22lives anonymous in anonymity.
1:31:24>> Okay.
1:31:24>> But we all know who they are. Like you
1:31:26and I will know because there are 10
1:31:27people.
1:31:28>> That would be a great game show. That
1:31:29would be fun to [laughter] do.
1:31:31>> Like do you think people who have
1:31:33understood the game and they are in the
1:31:35top 1% high status people, they'll
1:31:37eventually somehow either through dark
1:31:40triad traits or the way they've been
1:31:42wired will end up figuring out a way to
1:31:45rise to the top or no?
1:31:46>> I think um
1:31:49yes. Generally speaking, yes. I
1:31:52if you live in more or less kind of a
1:31:56meritocratic society, which you know,
1:31:58there's no perfect meritocracy, but
1:32:00generally speaking, um
1:32:03if people are evaluated mostly by their
1:32:05skills and their ambition and so on, and
1:32:07you kind of strip them of all of their
1:32:09accomplishments, everyone, high and low,
1:32:11and put them together,
1:32:13I think you'll see the same patterns
1:32:15reemerge. Um
1:32:17And there's I mean, there's been a lot
1:32:18of interesting work on this. There's an
1:32:20economic historian, Gregory Clark, who's
1:32:21done this work of he finds, um that you
1:32:25can he he's done this through the study
1:32:26of surnames in the UK and Japan and in
1:32:30other countries where,
1:32:32you know, something like I think 25%
1:32:35of the CEOs in Japan have samurai
1:32:38ancestry. You know, and there's no
1:32:40there's no benefits to being a samurai
1:32:42or having samurai DNA today, but they
1:32:45are the descendants of the aristocrats,
1:32:47of people who, um you know, were at the
1:32:50top back in the day. And so, I think you
1:32:52you know, you would see something like
1:32:53that reemerge, the same kind of, um
1:32:56broad, you know, hierarchies.
1:33:00>> who determine what determines who rises
1:33:02to the top?
1:33:03>> Well, I think status seeking in and of
1:33:04itself, like interest in status. So,
1:33:06sometimes I'll I'll I'll draw this
1:33:08analogy to hunger, right? So, everyone
1:33:10experiences hunger, right? We all need
1:33:12food. Everyone gets hungry at some
1:33:13point. But, the
1:33:16um
1:33:17frequency and the intensity of that
1:33:19hunger varies from person to person.
1:33:21Some people, they they're not even that
1:33:23interested in food, they just need it
1:33:24because they have to. Other people, they
1:33:26can't stop eating, they love food so
1:33:28much, and they can't stop thinking about
1:33:29food. It's same with status, where
1:33:31everyone to some degree like status,
1:33:34they crave status, they're satisfied by
1:33:36status, but it varies where some people
1:33:37that's all they think about, that's all
1:33:39they can focus on, um it's their
1:33:41favorite topic, in the same way that for
1:33:43a foodie, food is their favorite topic.
1:33:44And then for status, there are others
1:33:46who are humble, like genuinely humble.
1:33:48They would be happy being a priest or a
1:33:50monk, or being someone who's just, you
1:33:51know, they like being liked, but it's
1:33:53not their number one priority. Um
1:33:56and I think the people who are at that
1:33:58extreme end, um
1:34:00you know, the the the status you know,
1:34:02the equivalent of the obese status
1:34:04seeking types, like they are going to
1:34:06pursue it with this kind of
1:34:08determination and ferocity. But status
1:34:11seeking alone is not enough. You also
1:34:12need um you know, to to to to be
1:34:14intelligent, to have um
1:34:17uh
1:34:19you know, form good alliances, gain
1:34:21people's trust, do things that other
1:34:23people find valuable. And yeah, be
1:34:26willing to put yourself out there. Have
1:34:27some um ability to tolerate risk uh as
1:34:30well. And you know, so I think if you
1:34:33you know, you just kind of see, you
1:34:34know, people who are successful, look at
1:34:36their traits and those are generally the
1:34:38traits that will predict success. Um
1:34:40there are exceptions to this if people
1:34:42uh
1:34:42with nepotism or inheritance or
1:34:44something like that. But if you look at
1:34:47self-made successful people, you'll find
1:34:49that they share a lot of the same traits
1:34:51in common. And you know, often you can
1:34:54see
1:34:55>> [snorts]
1:34:55>> these predictors. Um
1:34:57social mobility has been studied a lot
1:34:59in in the US and in other countries and
1:35:01you see, okay, here's a kid who's born
1:35:02into a low-income family, very
1:35:05unpromising circumstances. What are the
1:35:07predictors of, you know, the of the
1:35:09let's say you have 100 kids born poor,
1:35:11you know, 20 of them
1:35:13grow up and they're no longer poor. What
1:35:15do those 20 people have in common? And
1:35:17it's some combination of impulse
1:35:19control, uh conscientiousness,
1:35:21intelligence, uh patience, uh
1:35:24willingness to
1:35:26uh delay gratification, uh good with
1:35:28people, good at communicating, uh an
1:35:31interest in ideas, um
1:35:33following through on their promises,
1:35:35that kind of thing. And then you there's
1:35:37also some interesting work on downward
1:35:39mobility. Psychologists have studied um
1:35:43uh children born into uh higher-income
1:35:45families that um later in life oh, slide
1:35:49downward, slide downward. Um so they
1:35:51slip down the ladder. They do not
1:35:52replicate their own parents' level of
1:35:54success, and they also have traits in
1:35:56common, which are almost the opposite of
1:35:58those upwardly mobile people, which is
1:36:00um
1:36:01uh emotional impulsivity. Um so, they
1:36:04tend to be very dramatic in their
1:36:05emotional presentation. They have
1:36:06difficulty delaying gratification.
1:36:09They're often very confrontational with
1:36:11other people. They don't have
1:36:13um
1:36:14uh the ability to get along well with
1:36:15people. They're um you know, sort of
1:36:17exquisitely sensitive to um
1:36:19uh the feeling that other people don't
1:36:21like them. Uh explosive. Um
1:36:24and often, you know, they they are less
1:36:27uh intelligent than their parents, less
1:36:29academically inclined than their
1:36:30parents. Uh so, you can see this in both
1:36:32directions, and I think there are kind
1:36:33of lessons to be drawn on both sides.
1:36:35>> Steven, when you say that there are
1:36:38people who are status-seeking, and you
1:36:40that that is a big driver whether a
1:36:43person will end up
1:36:45getting status or no in life, right?
1:36:47This can also mean
1:36:49there's desperation. Mhm. A lot of
1:36:51people can be desperate to seek status.
1:36:54Can you smell desperation?
1:36:55>> Can you smell desperation?
1:36:58Oh, yeah.
1:36:59>> [laughter]
1:36:59>> Well, it it's sometimes Yes, there are
1:37:01there are cases where people are
1:37:03extremely transparent. Um almost to the
1:37:06point of um
1:37:09like yeah, like it become it can be
1:37:10comedic when someone is so openly uh
1:37:13like I've I've been to parties here in
1:37:15New York garage where someone will come
1:37:17up to they'll recognize me or something.
1:37:19And then they'll say like, "Who else
1:37:21Like, where are all the famous people
1:37:22here at this party?" They'll just say
1:37:23it. Like, they don't even, you know,
1:37:24they're just like, "Where are all the
1:37:25famous people here?" I'm like, "Damn,
1:37:27like just like that, huh?" Like, so
1:37:28transparently nakedly like, "I only want
1:37:30to talk to people who are high status
1:37:31here." Um
1:37:34so, in that case, you can, you know,
1:37:36yeah, you smell it, you see it, you
1:37:37taste it, it's right there.
1:37:38>> But, you want to stay away from them,
1:37:39right?
1:37:40>> Right. Oh, no, it's it's an immediate
1:37:41kind of like, you know,
1:37:43>> I'd advise.
1:37:43>> Yeah, like I don't want to be around
1:37:44this person anymore.
1:37:46>> So, tell me tell me a tasteful way of
1:37:47doing it. Like, what does some
1:37:50What does somebody do when they're
1:37:52actually desperate, but they don't want
1:37:54to show that they're desperate?
1:37:56>> Oh, I see. They They don't ask you for
1:37:58anything at first, and in fact, they may
1:38:00even um help you in some ways, right?
1:38:03Like, maybe they want something from
1:38:04you, so they They know that you have a
1:38:06connection to someone, and they want to
1:38:10get a job at that person's company, and
1:38:12they know that you know that person.
1:38:14Uh but for, let's say, you know, 6
1:38:16months,
1:38:18uh all this person does is like, "Hey,
1:38:20found this article, thought it was
1:38:21interesting, sending it your way."
1:38:23Um or hey, like, there's a There's a
1:38:24party over here. There are a couple of
1:38:25people I want you to meet. Like, come
1:38:27hang out. And you know, you kind of do
1:38:29this. Like, find benefits, don't ask for
1:38:31anything, just be helpful and cheerful
1:38:32and polite. And then, after a few
1:38:34months, you know, you sort of establish
1:38:36a rapport, and then it's like, "Oh, hey,
1:38:38you know this guy, and like, I saw there
1:38:39was a job opening. Would love if you
1:38:41could put me in touch." And, you know,
1:38:43and it feels organic. It doesn't feel um
1:38:46coercive.
1:38:48>> Yeah, exactly. And I think that's That's
1:38:49like a a better uh approach. More More
1:38:52chances of success. Higher chances of
1:38:53success.
1:38:54>> Interesting. Do people play status games
1:38:59all the time in their heads?
1:39:01>> Um
1:39:02I I don't think I don't think all the
1:39:03time. I think status is important, but
1:39:05it's not the only
1:39:07It's not the only
1:39:09um
1:39:09concern people have, but it's
1:39:12often uh an important one.
1:39:15Uh when you look at um
1:39:17you know, a lot of the neuroscience,
1:39:19neuroimaging research,
1:39:22um
1:39:23there's a part of the the brain they
1:39:24call it the default mode network. And
1:39:28when people are at rest, they're not
1:39:30actively engaged in a particular task.
1:39:33You know, you put them in an fMRI, and
1:39:34some some of them they're like, "Oh, do
1:39:35these puzzles, do these tasks. Tell us
1:39:37what you think about this, that, or the
1:39:38other." When you just like sort of let
1:39:39people, you know, let your mind wander,
1:39:41think about what you want, um certain
1:39:43regions of the brain activate and those
1:39:45are the same regions of the brain
1:39:47that are active when we are thinking
1:39:49about other people, when we're thinking
1:39:50about ourselves. It's very socially
1:39:52oriented our mind. You know, some people
1:39:54there are exceptions where they're very
1:39:55interested in material things, concrete
1:39:58things or abstract ideas. They're not
1:40:00interested in as in people as much, but
1:40:02most people when you just let your mind
1:40:04wander, it's you start thinking about
1:40:05your social circle, you start thinking
1:40:07about people, you start thinking about
1:40:08your reputation, you start thinking
1:40:10about your relationships, social
1:40:12connections and contact and so
1:40:15and and status is a huge part of that.
1:40:19But, you know, that I think status is
1:40:22not it's not the only thing. I don't
1:40:24want to overstate oh, it's all about
1:40:25status, but it's just one important
1:40:27thing among many.
1:40:28>> Interesting. And if somebody if they've
1:40:31put you in
1:40:32a low status box.
1:40:34>> Okay.
1:40:35>> Can you get out of that?
1:40:36>> What kind of box are we talking about?
1:40:38>> Let's say you
1:40:40you are someone
1:40:42and you go to an important networking
1:40:44event. You go to important people
1:40:46and then they've automatically or maybe
1:40:49because of some signs or maybe first
1:40:50time you're not dressed well or your
1:40:52accent the 10 words are not
1:40:54good enough. They've put you in a low
1:40:56status box already.
1:40:57>> Okay.
1:40:58>> Can you get out of it?
1:41:00>> Oh, sure.
1:41:00>> Because there are some people, right?
1:41:02They they're all in a group of equal
1:41:04people as well.
1:41:06They're always getting interrupted.
1:41:08They're always the ones who are not
1:41:10being taken seriously. They're always
1:41:11the ones who are being cut by other
1:41:12people. They they just
1:41:15somehow they end up being low status and
1:41:18nobody hears them.
1:41:19They're unseen people, invisible.
1:41:22>> Yeah, no, you're you're right. There's
1:41:25yeah, a lot of interesting research on
1:41:27this of
1:41:29you know, lower status people get
1:41:30interrupted more often. They they speak
1:41:33more softly. They take up less space
1:41:35with their bodies.
1:41:37Um
1:41:37But
1:41:38yeah, you can you can um find ways to,
1:41:42you know, repair some of those things
1:41:44where you you can learn uh take
1:41:45elocution lessons and learn to speak
1:41:47louder and more clearly. You can uh
1:41:48practice body language. You can take
1:41:50improv classes. There are, you know,
1:41:52there are successful stories of people
1:41:53who glow up. Maybe
1:41:56uh not in the same context, right? Like
1:41:58sometimes you can get stuck if you're in
1:42:00a social group and you're kind of like
1:42:02at the bottom at the office that you
1:42:03work at, for example.
1:42:06Sometimes it can just be easier to get a
1:42:07different job. You know, you're at this
1:42:09job, you're at the bottom, and then you
1:42:11work on self-improvement and developing
1:42:13yourself, and then
1:42:14it can still because people have
1:42:16categorized you, and it can be hard to
1:42:17break out of that box in that same
1:42:19context with those same coworkers. But
1:42:21then you move to a different job, and
1:42:22you're this person who has these newly
1:42:24acquired social skills.
1:42:26Uh and maybe you dress differently and
1:42:28carry yourself more confidently. Uh in
1:42:30this new place, you're in a different uh
1:42:32position in the hierarchy, and uh
1:42:35and so, you know, instead of trying to
1:42:37work in the same um
1:42:39uh space, you can just move somewhere
1:42:40else, and you'll find that uh
1:42:43you know, people respond to you in a way
1:42:44that you want.
1:42:45>> You know, let's do a fun thing. It's
1:42:48let's make some kind of audit.
1:42:49>> Okay.
1:42:50>> Okay.
1:42:50>> Okay.
1:42:51>> So someone who feels like, "Hey, they're
1:42:53not being taken seriously. They're good
1:42:55enough, but then somehow things does
1:42:58just doesn't work out for them."
1:42:59>> Okay.
1:43:00>> Right.
1:43:02If you have to build an audit, like a
1:43:04self-check, that they can actually audit
1:43:07themselves by asking them certain
1:43:08questions
1:43:09whether and to put themselves whether
1:43:11they have been they are considered high
1:43:13status or low status in their group, so
1:43:15that at least they're self-aware and
1:43:16they can start working on themselves.
1:43:17>> I think like the ones that people spend
1:43:19a lot of, you know, education, income,
1:43:21occupational prestige, that kind of
1:43:23thing. Um
1:43:26busyness, you know, and and sometimes
1:43:27these status symbols can change where I
1:43:29think like it kind of depends among
1:43:31successful people, among certain people,
1:43:33being super busy is high status. Oh, I
1:43:35have no space. I have no time. I have no
1:43:37whatever. And then for others, it's um
1:43:39having full control over your time. Um I
1:43:42don't take meetings. I just kind of go
1:43:44with the flow. That can be high status,
1:43:46too. Um so I think it it can vary. So if
1:43:49we're going to do like that kind of
1:43:51audit you're thinking, I think it would
1:43:52be like, all right. Well, we're doing an
1:43:53audit of your status at the office. Or
1:43:55we're doing an audit of your status um
1:43:57among your friends. You know, maybe at
1:43:59at the office you're high status, but in
1:44:01your friend group, you're the one who's
1:44:02always getting teased and made fun of
1:44:03and bullied. Uh so we're going to talk
1:44:05about, okay, so you know, tell me about
1:44:07your history with your friends. You
1:44:08know, you who gets interrupted more? Who
1:44:10gets interrupted less? Um you know,
1:44:12you're all deciding on a restaurant. Do
1:44:14they ever listen to your recommendation
1:44:15about where to meet up? Um or do you
1:44:17always get sidelined and ignored? Um you
1:44:20know, who gets teased and mocked the
1:44:21most kind of thing?
1:44:23>> for the friends?
1:44:23>> Yeah, among the friends.
1:44:24>> We asked We established few questions.
1:44:27Then with the office, then we will do
1:44:29family, then we can do society.
1:44:31>> [laughter]
1:44:32>> All right.
1:44:33>> [gasps]
1:44:33>> Yeah. I think that these four are good
1:44:34status to have. And then let's do
1:44:36social.
1:44:38>> Yeah. [snorts]
1:44:38>> Okay, that's also like an important
1:44:40uh
1:44:41you know, status game that a lot of
1:44:43people are playing today. So that's the
1:44:44five buckets.
1:44:45>> Yeah.
1:44:45>> So friends who get interrupted more and
1:44:48do they listen to your recommendations
1:44:49more often and how often? So that's one
1:44:52question with friends. What about
1:44:53office?
1:44:54>> In the office. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know,
1:44:55it's um you know,
1:44:57you're How often does your boss request
1:44:59time with you? Ask for your input. Um
1:45:02you know, do your coworkers ask you
1:45:04questions about yourself? Um
1:45:07you know, have you been passed over for
1:45:10a promotion or not? Or have you been
1:45:12fast-tracked? Um
1:45:14>> Okay.
1:45:14>> How much information can you Cuz
1:45:16sometimes this can be hard, but like
1:45:17you, you know, can imagine you're an
1:45:19associate at a bank or something. Are
1:45:21you making more or less than the other
1:45:23associates? You know, sometimes the the
1:45:25income categories are not transparent,
1:45:27but um and then
1:45:30uh
1:45:31you know, do you do you ever get
1:45:33excluded, you know, in email threads and
1:45:35chains? How
1:45:36um curt are people with you when they
1:45:38interact with you? Do they keep it sort
1:45:40of strictly business or, you know, do
1:45:42they try to like in- you know, weave in
1:45:44some some friendly gestures as well to
1:45:46like smooth out the relationship?
1:45:48Um so, those kinds of things.
1:45:50>> Okay. Then, office done, friends done,
1:45:52family.
1:45:54>> Oh, I think you can Family's a hard one
1:45:56because the a lot of those roles are
1:45:57kind of baked in, you know, the mother
1:45:59role, the father role, children. Um
1:46:02but, you know, I think within like
1:46:05within the context of uh
1:46:07it's it's hard to think like with with
1:46:08parents and and children, you know,
1:46:10who's higher status is it's a weird
1:46:12question.
1:46:12>> Do you get respected enough or no?
1:46:13Because that's
1:46:14>> Yeah.
1:46:15>> We all have heard of stories where
1:46:19maybe
1:46:20the father is the breadwinner and still
1:46:22not being respected or where mother is
1:46:24the breadwinner and still not being
1:46:25respected.
1:46:26>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:46:26>> Right? Or maybe kids are
1:46:29the ones who have
1:46:31who have matured, gone to great
1:46:32colleges, they're
1:46:34they're doing good for themselves, still
1:46:35not being respected. So,
1:46:37there are, you know, there's still games
1:46:39people play inside the family dynamics
1:46:41as well. At least in majority families.
1:46:44Few good functional families I'm not
1:46:46talking about.
1:46:46>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:46:48Now, well, I think yeah, what you just
1:46:50described there of um you know,
1:46:52listening and how much you have how much
1:46:55respect is conferred to you, do you
1:46:57know, if you set ground rules for your
1:46:59kids, do they listen to you, that kind
1:47:01of thing. But, I think it's it's harder
1:47:02because
1:47:03most most status games are played
1:47:07between people who are roughly equal um
1:47:11with one another.
1:47:12Um this was uh
1:47:15you know, this is a classic book called
1:47:17Collision of Wills by the sociologist
1:47:20Roger Goulds. And in this book, he
1:47:21basically you digs through the data
1:47:23cross-culturally and so on and finds
1:47:25that
1:47:26um most status competitions uh occur
1:47:29between people who are roughly equal or
1:47:32when there's an ambiguity around who
1:47:34holds higher status. Um and so I think
1:47:38with with families it's it's it's
1:47:39complicated um
1:47:41you know, because you're not you're not
1:47:43trying to compete for the same roles,
1:47:44right? The the father's not trying to
1:47:45become the mother, the wife isn't the
1:47:47the children and yeah, those are all
1:47:48kind of established, but when you have
1:47:50um you know, multiple people competing
1:47:53for the same role at the office or
1:47:55multiple people in a neighborhood trying
1:47:57to compete with who has the nicest car,
1:47:59that kind of thing, then the status
1:48:00games become more um uh
1:48:04fierce and more transparent and people
1:48:07care more um about about winning and
1:48:10those kinds of things.
1:48:11When there's an ambiguity is an
1:48:12interesting one where when you have kind
1:48:15of two people and it's unclear who
1:48:18actually has uh the higher status, this
1:48:20can introduce conflict. A simple example
1:48:22would be um
1:48:24if you if So usually the boss is older
1:48:26than the employee. So the boss has high
1:48:29um rank at the office and um high uh
1:48:32respect because he's older and we res-
1:48:34we respect the elders.
1:48:36But when you have a situation where the
1:48:38boss is younger than the employee, this
1:48:40can often introduce conflict uh in a
1:48:43corporate environment or any work site
1:48:45because
1:48:46the younger person knows, "Oh, I'm
1:48:47supposed to like be nice to you cuz
1:48:49you're old and we respect our elders,
1:48:51but I have to tell you what to do." And
1:48:54the older person is thinking to the you
1:48:56know, "Okay, he's my boss, but who's
1:48:57this young, you know, upstart? Like what
1:48:59does he actually know? You know, I was
1:49:01you know, I was I've been working at
1:49:02this company for so many years." And
1:49:03that kind of thing. Um and so one of the
1:49:06takeaways from that book was like
1:49:07actually having some um
1:49:09uh clear categories for status can be
1:49:11helpful um cuz it can reduce conflict.
1:49:13We know these are the rules, this is
1:49:15who's in charge, you respect those
1:49:16rules, but if we don't know, then
1:49:18everyone can be vying for status all the
1:49:20time because nobody knows who's on top.
1:49:22Um
1:49:23All right. So, yeah, family.
1:49:25>> So, give me one question.
1:49:26>> Yeah.
1:49:27>> How can somebody audit?
1:49:29>> Audit the family?
1:49:30>> Yeah, like audit their status inside a
1:49:33family dynamic.
1:49:35Because there's still can be status
1:49:36games and
1:49:38there largely the status game
1:49:41I'm assuming it wouldn't be around money
1:49:44and competing position. It would be
1:49:46around
1:49:48how much love, admiration, and respect
1:49:50do you bring on table?
1:49:52>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
1:49:54>> It's a different kind of
1:49:56status game that you play inside the
1:49:58family.
1:50:00>> Now, I think yeah, well,
1:50:01it also depends too on um
1:50:04Yeah, cuz there can be different roles
1:50:06if if one person is the breadwinner and
1:50:08the other person's a stay-at-home
1:50:09parent. Um
1:50:12but I think how often are your wishes
1:50:14respected?
1:50:15>> Are you being valued simply?
1:50:16>> Yeah. Yeah. And and well, how is that
1:50:20value um
1:50:21>> Like how do you audit that?
1:50:22>> Yeah, and and I think that would be, you
1:50:24know, how often are your preferences um
1:50:27uh taken into consideration. Uh so, for
1:50:30something like like a family vacation,
1:50:31right? Like everyone has their
1:50:32preference, but who tends to prevail
1:50:35more when they Oh, I want to go to
1:50:36Florida. I want to go to Hawaii. I want
1:50:37to go here. Like who tends to be the one
1:50:39who gets their way? And it doesn't have
1:50:41to be just for vacations, but just what
1:50:43are we having for dinner tonight or um
1:50:46we're all going to go see a movie. Whose
1:50:48gets to
1:50:49>> Which movie?
1:50:50>> Yeah, that kind of Yeah, which movie? Um
1:50:52that kind of thing. And um
1:50:55Yeah.
1:50:55>> Interesting.
1:50:56>> Yeah, yeah.
1:50:56>> Okay. Then society and then social.
1:51:00How do you evaluate your status in
1:51:01society?
1:51:03>> Well, I think society in general
1:51:06>> means your group, your
1:51:09some committee, some larger
1:51:12let's say associations and groups that
1:51:15you hang out with or networking events
1:51:17that you go to.
1:51:18>> Yeah. [clears throat]
1:51:19Um hmm.
1:51:22How So so what would be a question
1:51:25there?
1:51:26Um
1:51:28Yeah, how how often um
1:51:31I mean, if we're talking about sort of
1:51:32social gatherings and networking events
1:51:34and so on, how often do those
1:51:36interactions lead to anything concrete?
1:51:39>> And how often do you get invited?
1:51:41>> Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Uh
1:51:43yeah, how often do you get the uh you
1:51:44know, the Luma or the party full uh
1:51:47invite? Um
1:51:49And yeah, so so how often do you get
1:51:51invited and then how often do those
1:51:54interactions lead to anything? Uh not
1:51:56doesn't even necessarily have to be
1:51:58material, but you go and then you get
1:51:59invited to more things. That could be
1:52:01one measure.
1:52:02Uh and then it could also be um you
1:52:04know, does it [clears throat] does this
1:52:05lead to you know, profitable
1:52:07opportunities of one kind or another?
1:52:09>> Interesting. And then social on like
1:52:12internet, on social media, is there a
1:52:14way to audit?
1:52:14>> Uh I mean, that seems like the easiest
1:52:16one of all is just how many followers.
1:52:18>> But there's also an interesting one here
1:52:21um
1:52:21where it it your status on social media
1:52:24can depend on your overall level of
1:52:26followers, and that's kind of the first
1:52:27thing most people notice.
1:52:29The other thing though, um which I'm
1:52:31finding because
1:52:33you know, there's there's there's
1:52:35quantity, but then there's also quality.
1:52:37And it's not just how many you have, but
1:52:39who's following you. So you could
1:52:40imagine one guy on Instagram has a
1:52:44million followers, but he's followed by
1:52:46no one you've ever heard of or known.
1:52:47It's all just, you know, ordinary
1:52:48people. And then you have this other
1:52:50account that's that literally only has
1:52:52three followers and no one else. And the
1:52:54three people, it's like Barack Obama,
1:52:56Elon Musk, and George Clooney. And no
1:52:58one else follows this guy. I think that
1:53:00second guy you'd be like, "Whoa, like
1:53:02>> most attracted to? The first guy
1:53:04>> Yeah, like what's going on here? Like
1:53:05you literally have three followers and
1:53:07it's like super famous people. Um and so
1:53:10I think those two things. We do some
1:53:12kind of rough
1:53:13uh calculation in our mind of how many
1:53:15and then who. And I've done this, too.
1:53:17Like sometimes when I'm deciding, you
1:53:19know, who to who to uh connect with or
1:53:21who to speak with or whatever and I'm
1:53:23like, oh, like let me pull them up on
1:53:24Twitter or whatever. I'm like, oh, okay,
1:53:26yeah, yeah, yeah. And um oh, we have
1:53:28this guy in common and then you can talk
1:53:29about the mutuals that you follow and
1:53:31that kind of thing, too.
1:53:32>> Interesting. Okay, so that's the audit.
1:53:35Now, tell me three immediate things
1:53:38which this person can do in next 12
1:53:40months
1:53:41to take themselves from low status to
1:53:43high status.
1:53:44>> [laughter]
1:53:45>> Let's say after audit, this person has
1:53:47gotten like
1:53:48>> Yeah.
1:53:48man.
1:53:50>> Yeah.
1:53:50>> Things are hard.
1:53:51>> Yeah. Three things that the person can
1:53:53do. Well, I would need to know sort of
1:53:55where they're at now because, you know,
1:53:57if you have some
1:53:58>> low status and they're failing almost
1:54:00everywhere. There's no There's no
1:54:01cultural capital, there's no economic
1:54:03capital, there's no embodied capital.
1:54:05>> Yeah.
1:54:05>> There is no
1:54:06>> I literally So, so the thing you
1:54:09mentioned embodied capital, the most
1:54:11accessible, you know, assuming the
1:54:13person has no disabilities and so on,
1:54:15the thing that they could immediately do
1:54:17to
1:54:18um
1:54:19start on the path toward elevating
1:54:21themselves and improving themselves is
1:54:23physical fitness.
1:54:24>> Yeah.
1:54:24>> Um
1:54:26it partially for actual physical
1:54:27reasons, you know, you lift weights, you
1:54:29can physically look better over time,
1:54:31but there's a psychological component,
1:54:32too, where you feel physically more
1:54:35confident and more capable and this can
1:54:37be reflected in your interactions um
1:54:41and, you know, clothes can fit you
1:54:42better and that, too, can um put you on
1:54:45a path toward being more appealing as a
1:54:47friend or as a romantic partner. Um so I
1:54:50think like, you know, it's kind of sad
1:54:51to say because it's so superficial, but
1:54:53I think I would start literally there
1:54:55with um
1:54:56getting on a fitness routine, cleaning
1:54:57up your diet, figuring that out. And
1:54:59then um clothing, you know, what are you
1:55:01wearing? Find clothes that fit, find you
1:55:03know, if you feel like
1:55:06you're not doing your laundry, like I
1:55:07got to like clean clothes that fit you.
1:55:09Maybe get a good haircut, do some basic
1:55:11grooming. So like just so that when you
1:55:13step out into the social world, you look
1:55:15as high as your genetic ceiling will
1:55:17allow you to look.
1:55:18Try to hit that ceiling.
1:55:21And then and then from there, I think it
1:55:22would be okay, well, where are your
1:55:23strengths and weaknesses?
1:55:26And because if you're not if you're not
1:55:27academically inclined, I don't think
1:55:29it's like makes sense to force you to
1:55:31apply for colleges and grad school and
1:55:33all this stuff. But
1:55:34if you're gifted musically or
1:55:36athletically or something like that,
1:55:39you know, I had one friend who who was
1:55:40kind of like he was
1:55:42kind of short, not especially good He
1:55:44wasn't like horrible. He was a very
1:55:46average-looking short guy.
1:55:48And he worked at Walmart. And you know,
1:55:50just in his life he wasn't doing great.
1:55:52But [snorts] he had a super hot
1:55:54girlfriend. And I asked like, oh, how
1:55:56did how did you guys meet? And he told
1:55:58me, oh, like he worked part-time as a
1:56:00swimming coach.
1:56:01Uh he likes swimming, he likes the
1:56:02water, and he taught swimming. And she
1:56:05just happened to be at this public pool
1:56:06watching him engage with kids. And like
1:56:09he was in his role as a very competent,
1:56:11capable um you know, a skillful person
1:56:15in that context. And because she saw him
1:56:18that in that way,
1:56:20you know, she was attracted to him. And
1:56:22they, you know, got together. Whereas,
1:56:24you know, maybe if she had seen him at
1:56:25Walmart or something, things would have
1:56:26gone differently.
1:56:28Um but I think that would be it is like,
1:56:29where are your strengths and interests?
1:56:31And then just try to get good at that
1:56:32thing. Try to do it in public. You know,
1:56:35if you're swimming coach, obviously in
1:56:36public, but you know, whether it's music
1:56:39or speaking, if you're interested in
1:56:40comedy, just something that can
1:56:43that's a skill set that you have a
1:56:44little bit of talent that you can build
1:56:46on. And then
1:56:48uh exhibit that talent in a public way.
1:56:51>> So,
1:56:51you said the top three would be first is
1:56:54work on your fitness, second is figure
1:56:56it out your appearance, clothing, and
1:56:59get better at that. And third is find
1:57:01out a skill or a hobby that you're good
1:57:03at where you're interested, and then get
1:57:05really, really
1:57:06>> Yeah.
1:57:06>> really good at that one particular
1:57:08thing. So that you have these three
1:57:10things going on in next 12 months you
1:57:12can elevate your status a little bit.
1:57:13>> Yes. And then and then you know, don't
1:57:15be shy about it. Don't, you know, hide
1:57:17your interest in your skill. You know, I
1:57:20I remember I had this conversation Raj
1:57:21with
1:57:22this guy he's now a friend of mine, but
1:57:24we initially had these these discussions
1:57:27where he was on the dating apps. He was
1:57:29trying to find, you know, partner.
1:57:33And I didn't know him when we first had
1:57:35this discussion, but I asked him, "Oh,
1:57:36like what are you know, what are your
1:57:37pictures like? What do you you know,
1:57:39what do you do for work? This, that, and
1:57:40the other." And he was a doctor. He was
1:57:42a physician. And I was like, "Oh, like
1:57:45you should be, you know, have some
1:57:47options at least. I mean, maybe you
1:57:48haven't found the person yet, but you
1:57:49should be having He's like, "I don't I
1:57:50don't even get any matches." I'm like,
1:57:51"How are you not getting matches as a
1:57:52doctor? How's this possible?"
1:57:54And I said, "Do you have photos of
1:57:56yourself? And do you have your
1:57:57occupation on your profile?" And he
1:57:59said, "No." And I said, "Well, why not?"
1:58:02And he said, "You know, I don't want the
1:58:03girls to think I'm trying too hard or
1:58:05that I'm like trying to impress them or
1:58:06like I could you know, they only
1:58:09like I don't want them to think like
1:58:10this is who I am, my whole identity."
1:58:12And I'm like, "Dude, like you're
1:58:14competing against thousands of other men
1:58:16for the attention of a limited number of
1:58:18attractive women. You got to stand out
1:58:20in some way." I was like, "You worked
1:58:22hard to get into medical school, become
1:58:24a doctor, do all of this, and you're not
1:58:26going to use this? Like it's you know,
1:58:28you should advertise this about
1:58:30yourself. Advertise your best qualities.
1:58:32Put your best foot forward. Um
1:58:34and yeah, don't get in your own way. So.
1:58:37>> You know, my top three would be
1:58:40to go from low status to high status in
1:58:42next 12 months.
1:58:44First is
1:58:46work on your body.
1:58:47>> Mhm.
1:58:48>> Like physical fitness.
1:58:49>> Yeah.
1:58:49>> That's
1:58:50the most important thing.
1:58:52Second is
1:58:53cultural capital. Find out something
1:58:56that you're interested in and then build
1:58:58a taste around that. Like go really,
1:59:00really niche and deep in that. So, let's
1:59:02say you're interested in, for example,
1:59:05I don't know,
1:59:06water.
1:59:07Okay, it's like
1:59:09random thing, but then go really deep in
1:59:11water and then you find out like what
1:59:13are these things and
1:59:14what kind of world and what are the
1:59:16water tasting facilities around the
1:59:17world and go super niche. Build that
1:59:20really good and sane taste around that.
1:59:23And then third is
1:59:25start writing about it on Substack.
1:59:27>> [laughter]
1:59:29>> If you do that for a very specific
1:59:32topic, yeah, very niche for 12 months
1:59:35and you physically upgrade yourself and
1:59:37you develop your taste, I think you can
1:59:39really go from low status to high
1:59:40status. And it can be anything. It can
1:59:42be about
1:59:44it can be about real estate. It can be
1:59:45about automobiles. It can be about just
1:59:48the wires which are there in an
1:59:50airplane.
1:59:51It can be about weight. It can be about
1:59:53just
1:59:54mindset of some
1:59:56uh you know, mindset of people who come
1:59:58second. And that's where that Here's a
2:00:00trick I I talk about this a lot more
2:00:02amongst my friends that if you pick up
2:00:04something super niche, you can come
2:00:07you can become the top 10 people in that
2:00:09industry or top 10 experts in that
2:00:11industry or in that particular subject
2:00:13very soon because there are only 10
2:00:14people writing.
2:00:16>> [laughter]
2:00:17>> Like you are amongst the 10 because
2:00:19there are only 10 people who care about
2:00:20this. But
2:00:22like when you go that and then just
2:00:24become like build something. You know, I
2:00:25write on Substack. Not many people know
2:00:28this. I write about something super
2:00:29niche. Though my entire work is so massy
2:00:32and everywhere and like you can see me
2:00:34with millions of views doing so many
2:00:36things, but I write about a very
2:00:38specific topic and I've
2:00:40kept it that way for specific reason
2:00:42because I love that. That's just like
2:00:43passion project. I I about what the next
2:00:45generation is consuming.
2:00:48And I just want to understand
2:00:51what is my generation, my younger
2:00:53brother's generation, and then my
2:00:55younger cousin's generation is actually
2:00:56consuming. What are they consuming? How
2:00:58are they thinking? That's it. And I
2:01:00don't care about
2:01:02how many views, how many readers, how
2:01:04many people will follow me.
2:01:06>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:01:06>> And I'm surprised that more than I
2:01:08started it like
2:01:09not even 6 months ago. I've never
2:01:11promoted it. I'm talking about it on
2:01:13podcast for the first time. And then
2:01:15more than 100k subscribers on Substack.
2:01:17>> Wow. Now, that's really
2:01:18>> knows.
2:01:19>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:01:21>> And I'm so And the And when you see the
2:01:23countries and where are the new
2:01:24followers coming up
2:01:25None of the new followers are coming
2:01:27from the country which where I'm
2:01:29popular.
2:01:29>> Huh. Okay. [laughter]
2:01:31Where are they? Like, can I ask like
2:01:33where are the readers? Are they
2:01:34>> Like, from all around the world. My
2:01:36podcast is really big in Asia and India,
2:01:39right? And started just picking up in
2:01:41States and Canada and Australia and New
2:01:43Zealand and UK. And I'm just all these
2:01:45countries.
2:01:46But most of the people that I get from
2:01:48are Europe. Most of the people that I'm
2:01:50getting from are US. And I'm surprised.
2:01:52>> Yeah. Huh.
2:01:54>> It's like
2:01:54>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:01:55>> This is great.
2:01:56>> Yeah.
2:01:56>> But it's so niche and nice that a lot of
2:01:58people are commenting and they're asking
2:01:59me about, "Hey, what are you going to
2:02:01write next? What are you going to do
2:02:02this?" You know.
2:02:03I'm myself like confused.
2:02:05>> Yeah.
2:02:06Yeah. And you know, you're just figuring
2:02:07it out as you go along.
2:02:09>> Yeah. I
2:02:10Like, you're still You're really good at
2:02:12it. I'm I'm still a terrible writer. I
2:02:14suck at it. My writing sucks, right? The
2:02:17only thing which is
2:02:18good
2:02:20in my articles and my writing is my
2:02:22unique observation. I think I'm a great
2:02:25observer. I
2:02:27Since childhood, I've been wired in a
2:02:29way that I look at patterns in societies
2:02:31even when people are just walking around
2:02:33me. And somehow like my brain just makes
2:02:35puts them in different patterns.
2:02:37So,
2:02:39my only thing is when you read when you
2:02:40read my stuff, you'll find out that hey,
2:02:43there's a unique insight.
2:02:44That's it. But is it great writing? Hell
2:02:47no. It's horrible. [laughter]
2:02:49The structure is bad, sentence forming
2:02:51is bad, starting is bad, end is bad. You
2:02:54don't know like this a writer will hate
2:02:56it and they'll get suffocated.
2:02:58>> [laughter]
2:02:59>> Yeah.
2:02:59>> But someone who's looking for a unique
2:03:00insight, they'll probably like it.
2:03:01>> Yeah. But I think I think that's better
2:03:03than the alternative. So you you you
2:03:04could think of like one is the writing
2:03:06is awful, but the insights are
2:03:07interesting. Versus you could have
2:03:09another article that's the the the
2:03:11writing is literally ornate. It's
2:03:13beautiful to read, but there are no
2:03:14insights there. And you're not going to
2:03:16remember anything it said, right? And so
2:03:18for me like you know, I started out my
2:03:19writing was kind of rough initially.
2:03:22Um but it was the insights. And that's
2:03:23what I read for is like you know, I I
2:03:25appreciate good writing, but it's more
2:03:27about like are you sharing something
2:03:28that I find useful or interesting or
2:03:30entertaining or that makes me think.
2:03:31>> Okay, there was one interesting thing
2:03:33that you talked about in the beginning
2:03:34and we didn't cover that.
2:03:36What is young male syndrome?
2:03:38>> Ah, young male syndrome.
2:03:41The young male syndrome is an idea that
2:03:45was coined by some social scientists,
2:03:48Margo Wilson and Martin Daly. And what
2:03:51these researchers did, they looked
2:03:54both within North America and around the
2:03:58world cross-culturally, historically,
2:04:00and there's been a lot of work done
2:04:01since this time. This was in the 1980s.
2:04:04Who are the people who are the most
2:04:07risk-taking? The people who are the most
2:04:10prone to crime, violence, addiction,
2:04:15and doesn't necessarily have to be
2:04:16criminality, but it could be involvement
2:04:19in extreme sports or doing things that
2:04:21could be
2:04:23uh
2:04:23harmful. And in every society without
2:04:27fail, it's always the same group,
2:04:31uh young men roughly in their late teens
2:04:34to early 20s.
2:04:36Uh and you know,
2:04:38with regard to crime, the criminologist
2:04:41they have this term the age-crime curve,
2:04:43which they find that criminality tends
2:04:46to peak
2:04:47in young adulthood. Around 19 or 20
2:04:50years old is when a man is the most
2:04:52likely to commit a crime. Um
2:04:55If you com- if you compare
2:04:57um the likelihood of being arrested for
2:04:59a violent crime, a 20-year-old man and a
2:05:0260-year-old man,
2:05:04uh even when you control for
2:05:05socioeconomic status,
2:05:07the 20-year-old is about 10 times more
2:05:10likely to be arrested for a violent
2:05:11crime than a 60-year-old man. And again,
2:05:14you're controlling for income and and
2:05:15everything else.
2:05:16>> So, what is the reason behind the young
2:05:19male syndrome? Why do we see this
2:05:20pattern repeatedly?
2:05:23Um
2:05:24The evolutionary explanation for this is
2:05:27that young men um take risks
2:05:31because it's required to stand out.
2:05:33Um you know, there's always been some
2:05:35degree of
2:05:37what's sometimes referred to as
2:05:38intersexual competition um among men.
2:05:41You want to stand out. You want to show
2:05:43that you have
2:05:45um the ability to survive catastrophe
2:05:48and risk because that's how you
2:05:49demonstrate that you have good genes,
2:05:51that you have good attributes, that you
2:05:52will
2:05:54um be a good provider and a good
2:05:55protector.
2:05:56Um
2:05:57And in contrast, uh women uh they have a
2:06:01different set of incentives. Perhaps in
2:06:04the distant ancestral past, there were
2:06:07thrill-seeking, risk-taking women who
2:06:09enjoyed violence and the kinds of things
2:06:11that you see with the young male
2:06:11syndrome. Those women are not our
2:06:13ancestors because they didn't survive
2:06:15long enough to reproduce. You know, if
2:06:17you think of a 20-year-old woman who
2:06:19loves putting herself in dangerous
2:06:20situations, she's not going to live long
2:06:22enough to have kids and certainly not
2:06:23going to live long enough to raise them
2:06:25into adulthood. Whereas for men, um
2:06:28the incentive was different where you
2:06:30had to stand out somehow to advertise
2:06:32good qualities and one way to do this
2:06:34was through taking risks in hunting or
2:06:37in warfare or in
2:06:40exploring previously
2:06:42un-navigated territory to find a source
2:06:45for water or source for medicine. And if
2:06:49you do this, there's you know, a
2:06:51non-zero chance you'll die or get ill or
2:06:54injured or something along the way, but
2:06:56if you're successful at it, the
2:06:58community rewards you with status with
2:07:00prestige, you know, the young attractive
2:07:02women in your little hunter-gatherer
2:07:04community will look at them and maybe
2:07:05that's the guy I should get with. And so
2:07:08we are the descendants of the young men
2:07:10who were willing to take risks and put
2:07:11themselves in dangerous situations.
2:07:14This tendency can activate
2:07:17can sort of wax and wane depending on
2:07:18the context as well. There was really
2:07:20amusing study from a few years ago where
2:07:23these researchers went to a skate park,
2:07:25you know, young guys on their
2:07:26skateboards doing cool tricks on the
2:07:28half-pipes and whatever.
2:07:30And
2:07:31on one day they sent a male research
2:07:34assistant to the skate park. He's a
2:07:36young guy and you know, he's talking to
2:07:38the skaters. Like, "Yeah, I'm just here,
2:07:39you know, like I want to see you guys do
2:07:41some cool tricks. I'm just interested in
2:07:42the culture of skateboarding and what
2:07:44you guys are up to.
2:07:45And uh
2:07:47and then he kind of observed what kind
2:07:48of stunts they were doing, how many
2:07:50injuries he saw that day,
2:07:53you know, how risky these guys were, how
2:07:55how how how risky the activities these
2:07:57guys were doing engaged in.
2:07:59And then a different day they sent a
2:08:01young female research assistant to
2:08:04this skate park and then the same kind
2:08:06of thing.
2:08:07Just interested in what you guys are up
2:08:09to and the skaters took far more risks
2:08:12when they were observed by a young woman
2:08:14than the young man.
2:08:17And why would this be the case that this
2:08:19kind of young male syndrome, this
2:08:21willingness to take on
2:08:23potentially dangerous risk in front of
2:08:26the young woman versus the young man?
2:08:27well, the young woman you want to
2:08:28advertise the qualities. I did this
2:08:30crazy insane stunt and I stuck the
2:08:32landing and you know, I I can show you
2:08:34I'm athletic, I'm coordinated, I'm cool,
2:08:37like you know, I do this trick all the
2:08:38all the boys are clapping for me,
2:08:40everyone loves me. Um
2:08:42and so that is that is the the reasoning
2:08:45here because
2:08:47evolutionarily you have these kind of
2:08:49two
2:08:51um motives that are sometimes in
2:08:53tension. One is survival and one is
2:08:56reproduction and if you want to
2:08:58reproduce you have to survive long
2:08:59enough. So you're you're sort of
2:09:00balancing these two things. Um
2:09:04but
2:09:05evolution cares more cares in quotes,
2:09:08you know, evolution is this abstract
2:09:09thing, but it cares more about
2:09:11reproduction than it does about
2:09:13survival. If there is a trait that
2:09:17enhances your reproductive potential,
2:09:20but it damages your survival, um that
2:09:24trait will still be favored versus the
2:09:26reverse where if there's a trait that is
2:09:28maximally focused on survival, but cares
2:09:30nothing about reproduction, that will
2:09:31die in the gene pool, right? Like that
2:09:33will not be passed on. So you know, you
2:09:35go to one group of guys and they all
2:09:38they care about is maximizing lifespan.
2:09:40I don't care about girls, I don't care
2:09:41about impressing anyone. I just want to
2:09:42live as long as possible. They're not
2:09:44going to have children and the genes
2:09:46associated with those attributes will
2:09:47die off. This other group, they're like,
2:09:49you know, I'm going to take risks, I'm
2:09:50going to do things and maybe it's
2:09:52harmful to me, maybe not, but um you
2:09:54know, this this attracts uh the opposite
2:09:57sex and they have kids and that will
2:09:59endure. But again, um you see this sex
2:10:02difference in risk taking because women
2:10:04they evolved to be more cautious because
2:10:07you know, they have to survive long
2:10:08enough to have the baby, to rear them
2:10:10into adulthood and so women in general
2:10:12are far more cautious, far less willing.
2:10:15What's interesting though is that when
2:10:16you look just at women, you still see
2:10:18that same pattern.
2:10:20So young women are far less inclined to
2:10:21take risk than young men, but when you
2:10:23compare young women with old women,
2:10:26young women are still more risk-taking,
2:10:29um more likely to put themselves in
2:10:30dangerous situations, more likely to
2:10:31commit crimes, shoplifting, getting into
2:10:33fights, those kinds of things. It's just
2:10:35that the magnitude is smaller than with
2:10:37with men. Um and so, this is the idea
2:10:40here. Um sometimes that risk-taking and
2:10:44impulsivity can be
2:10:46damaging and destructive in the form of
2:10:48crime, political violence, uh even just
2:10:51interpersonal violence, getting into
2:10:53fights. Um testosterone peaks during
2:10:56those years, too.
2:10:58Um but it can also be channeled into
2:11:01productive directions, too. Um you know,
2:11:03through sports, through career
2:11:05competition, through
2:11:08um
2:11:08you know, other forms [clears throat] of
2:11:09exhibiting your uh competitive spirit,
2:11:12and so on.
2:11:14Um
2:11:14but the young male syndrome, I think, is
2:11:16you know, it it it's funny to me because
2:11:19we
2:11:21we seem like remarkably uncurious about
2:11:24why this is the case that young men um
2:11:27they have this
2:11:29constellation of traits that leads them
2:11:31to be risk-taking. Um we see this borne
2:11:35out in the data around criminality, in
2:11:38um death rates, and so on. A young man
2:11:40is far more likely to be killed than a
2:11:41young woman, mostly by other men. So,
2:11:43around the world,
2:11:45um roughly 90%
2:11:48of people who commit murder are men,
2:11:51mostly young men. But the victims of
2:11:55murder, of homicide, are 70% of them are
2:11:59men. So, you have 90% of the killers are
2:12:02men, 70% of the victims.
2:12:03>> Men are killing men.
2:12:04>> Yes, primarily men are killing other
2:12:06men. Interestingly, you see the same
2:12:08pattern with chimpanzees, where about
2:12:1092% of chimpanzee killers are male, and
2:12:13about 70% of their victims are other
2:12:15males. So, most of the murder that goes
2:12:17on in the world, it's among men and more
2:12:19concentrated among young men. And even
2:12:22more interestingly, as we're talking
2:12:23about status here,
2:12:25the killer tends to be slightly younger
2:12:28than the target. So, you often see the
2:12:31the murderer is in his early 20s and the
2:12:35victim is typically in his late 20s or
2:12:38early 30s. And what I think might be
2:12:41going on there is that you have a young
2:12:43upstart who's maybe angry or envious of
2:12:46the man who is slightly ahead of him in
2:12:50the hierarchy and that position seems
2:12:52attainable. So, you take that person
2:12:53out. Um
2:12:56And so So, yeah, we we we seem I'm
2:12:58curious about this, but then, you know,
2:12:59this this can be channeled in in
2:13:00positive and negative directions.
2:13:02The The issue here, cuz sometimes I'll
2:13:04bring this up with people, the young
2:13:05male syndrome, and they will um reply to
2:13:08me, you know, okay, but then, you know,
2:13:11we're looking at what's happening with
2:13:12young men now and a lot of them seem to
2:13:14be inert, unambitious, uninterested. Um
2:13:19You know, a lot of young guys, they're
2:13:21lazy, they're unemployment rates are
2:13:23increasing, they're dropping out of
2:13:24education. What's going on with young
2:13:25men?
2:13:26And
2:13:28though I think a lot of this is can be
2:13:30put down to uh you know,
2:13:32phones and technology. Um
2:13:35video games do a superb job of capturing
2:13:38that male desire for achievement. Um and
2:13:42then, you think, well, what what is the
2:13:45reason why men are so interested in
2:13:47competition and and and uh risk-taking
2:13:50and so on? Well, it's usually impress
2:13:51girls so that they like you.
2:13:53But if that desire is satisfied again
2:13:56through screens, through digital
2:13:58pornography and OnlyFans and what have
2:14:00you,
2:14:00um
2:14:01then, you know, you you're removing one
2:14:04of the motives for putting yourself out
2:14:05there and engaging in these tasks. So,
2:14:07you have
2:14:08the adventurous spirit satisfied by the
2:14:10games, the sexual desires satisfied by
2:14:13porn, and then you know, you can find
2:14:15ways to sedate men, and they're no
2:14:18longer interested in
2:14:20which which is positive and negative. On
2:14:22the one hand, we see crime rates
2:14:23declining and that kind of thing. Um you
2:14:26know, on a historical scale
2:14:29um but on the other hand, we may be
2:14:31losing a lot of talent and a lot of
2:14:34energy
2:14:35from these young guys to the screens,
2:14:36too. So, we're losing something
2:14:38bad in the form of crime, but we're
2:14:40losing something good as well in the
2:14:42form of all the companies that aren't
2:14:43being built or all of the
2:14:46ideas and innovations and so on because
2:14:49a lot of guys are just sort of absorbed.
2:14:51I I know guys who, you know, they
2:14:53they refuse to
2:14:54buy video game consoles because they
2:14:56know they'll get addicted. They don't
2:14:57download any of the betting apps. They
2:14:59don't do all of this stuff because they
2:15:00know it's so enticing.
2:15:03>> It's going to mess mess it up for them.
2:15:06Interesting. So,
2:15:08young male syndrome is
2:15:10young men doing dumb things to impress
2:15:13women.
2:15:14>> [laughter]
2:15:15>> Uh
2:15:15>> [gasps]
2:15:16>> if we if we wanted to boil it down, it's
2:15:17kind of reductive. It's not I mean, it's
2:15:19not entirely wrong. I mean, it's
2:15:21it's yeah, young
2:15:22>> extent, this is right.
2:15:23>> Yeah. No, no, no, it it is. Um even if
2:15:26they don't necessarily know That's the
2:15:27thing though. The The interesting thing
2:15:29about the young male syndrome is
2:15:30>> it intuitively without even having a
2:15:32conscious thought or understanding about
2:15:35why they're doing things.
2:15:36>> With with the inadvertent or or
2:15:38unconscious desire to impress women
2:15:40because you What's interesting is you
2:15:41still see the young male syndrome
2:15:43exhibited even in places where no women
2:15:46are present. So, um very few places are
2:15:49more preoccupied with establishing
2:15:52hierarchy than militaries and prisons.
2:15:55Um and in prison, there are no women.
2:15:57Military, sometimes there are women,
2:15:58sometimes not, but these are very
2:15:59male-dominated
2:16:01institutions.
2:16:03And still, men are preoccupied with um,
2:16:06you know, not sliding down on the totem
2:16:08pole.
2:16:08>> Feeling high status.
2:16:09>> Yeah, and and you know, getting getting
2:16:10into fights and getting into these
2:16:12conflicts to show that uh, you know,
2:16:14they're they're tough.
2:16:15>> Interesting. Okay, here's this question.
2:16:18The last two questions that I ask
2:16:19everyone. Okay, first is
2:16:21what is one advice nobody should follow?
2:16:24>> [laughter]
2:16:25>> Oh, man. That nobody should follow. Is
2:16:28there um,
2:16:30I'm thinking there's there I mean there
2:16:31sure there's there's universally bad
2:16:32advice um, that that's uh,
2:16:35that's common.
2:16:37A piece of advice that nobody should
2:16:40follow.
2:16:42Hmm.
2:16:47>> [sighs]
2:16:47>> It's uh, it's hard like
2:16:49the blanket thing of like nobody should
2:16:50do this. Um,
2:16:55what would I say to something like this?
2:16:57I I maybe I'm taking your question too
2:16:59literally, but I'm trying to be as
2:17:00honest as as I possibly can. Um, that
2:17:03nobody should follow. Uh, well, I could
2:17:05say like there's there's advice that I
2:17:07would say um,
2:17:18on this point of advice, what I'm
2:17:20thinking about here Raj is um,
2:17:23that you should not give unsolicited
2:17:26advice to people.
2:17:28And and what the reason I'm saying this
2:17:31um,
2:17:32and it's so it's it's different in in in
2:17:34this kind of context. If you're um,
2:17:37you know, if you're doing something that
2:17:38people actively seek out. You're a
2:17:39podcaster, you're a writer, you're a
2:17:41public figure and people have the choice
2:17:44to tune in or turn out tune out. They
2:17:45can close the screen, they can you know,
2:17:48whatever. They can ignore you. But I'm
2:17:50thinking more in terms of like everyday
2:17:52life. Um,
2:17:53you know, there is this advice like oh,
2:17:55you should like if you've done something
2:17:57interesting or successful or um,
2:17:59helpful, you the advice here is like you
2:18:02should share that information with the
2:18:03people around you.
2:18:05Um
2:18:05in this case I would say be very careful
2:18:07with that that you shouldn't necessarily
2:18:09follow this advice about advice.
2:18:11Generally I would say don't give
2:18:13unsolicited advice because most of the
2:18:15time it just makes people dislike you.
2:18:18If they come to you for advice and they
2:18:20say, "Hey Raj, hey Rob, hey whoever like
2:18:22I'm trying to figure out this with my
2:18:24career, this with my relationship. Can I
2:18:26get your thoughts on this cuz I don't
2:18:28know what I'm doing?" Then it's like,
2:18:29yeah, do the best you possibly can to
2:18:31help them. But if someone is
2:18:34um
2:18:35not talking about those things or even
2:18:38if they are but they haven't explicitly
2:18:39asked you what you would do or for your
2:18:41advice, don't give it to them.
2:18:44Very few people enjoy um
2:18:47unsolicited advice. If I say like, "Oh
2:18:48yeah, my girlfriend's giving me all
2:18:50these problems and then the the the and
2:18:51then you say like, "You know what you
2:18:52got to do Rob with your girlfriend? This
2:18:53is a
2:18:54I probably will not respond well to
2:18:56this. Most people don't respond well to
2:18:57this. So be careful with unsolicited
2:18:59advice.
2:19:00>> So
2:19:00what cost have you personally paid to go
2:19:03from being poor
2:19:05to the elite institutions of the world
2:19:07and upgrade your social status?
2:19:11>> Oh,
2:19:12um
2:19:13the cost I have paid.
2:19:20Well, I lived in 10 different homes in
2:19:23total when I was a kid and then I
2:19:26enlisted uh in the military and moved
2:19:30around a lot. So
2:19:33I
2:19:34was
2:19:37I was able to adapt very quickly. Uh it
2:19:39was a skill. I can adapt but the cost is
2:19:43that I've never really felt at home
2:19:44anywhere.
2:19:46Um frequently relocating
2:19:49even if I feel welcome
2:19:51uh in a
2:19:53group or among people, among friends,
2:19:56some part of me is is ready to leave.
2:19:58Uh I
2:20:00there's always that lingering feeling of
2:20:02impermanence. Um
2:20:04>> You still carry that?
2:20:05>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:20:07>> You don't feel home anywhere?
2:20:08>> No. No. No, I I always feel like I'm
2:20:11just kind of staying and hanging out
2:20:13until the next thing. Uh where am where
2:20:15am I moving to next? Where am I going to
2:20:17next? Um
2:20:19and it yeah, it never really feels like
2:20:21it's going to last.
2:20:23Um
2:20:24And and this is something
2:20:27uh you know, I I wrote about this in my
2:20:28first book about uh
2:20:30you know, yes, I have achieved all of
2:20:32these conventional badges of success. Um
2:20:36but you know, I think about the way that
2:20:38I grew up and
2:20:40I don't know it like
2:20:42if the trade-off was worth it. Some
2:20:43people who've been through very
2:20:45difficult circumstances will say, "I'm
2:20:46glad I went through this because it made
2:20:48me who I am today."
2:20:50I actually disagree with that. Um I
2:20:52think I would trade much or all of this
2:20:55to have not experienced so much of that
2:20:57impermanence and dysfunction and
2:20:59disrepair
2:21:01um that I wrote about in Troubled.
2:21:03So, it which is not the same thing as
2:21:05saying I'm ungrateful or that I'm not
2:21:07glad I have these things. They're better
2:21:08than not, but um I don't think that the
2:21:11the trade-off uh was worth it. Yeah.
2:21:16>> Interesting. Thank you so much. Thank
2:21:18you for doing this. It was pleasure
2:21:19having you.
2:21:20>> Yeah. Yeah.
2:21:20>> Thank you.
2:21:21>> Thank you for watching this episode till
2:21:23the end. We would love to know what you
2:21:25liked or disliked about this episode and
2:21:27which guest you would like to see on the
2:21:29show. Let us know in the comments. Your
2:21:32feedback help us improve and make every
2:21:35episode a little better. I'll see you
2:21:37next time. Until then, keep figuring
2:21:39out.

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