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How to Build a Remarkable Brand in the Age of AI | Seth Godin — Transcript

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0:00Successful brands are built with your
0:03customers talking about you, not you
0:05talking about you.
0:07So, some people,
0:09because that's where the money is, think
0:11marketing is about spend.
0:13Right? It's not. Marketing is about
0:15creating the conditions
0:18for other people to eagerly spread your
0:20idea.
0:38All right, welcome to the Entrepreneur
0:40Studio podcast. I'm your host Chris
0:42Allen, and today we have in the studio
0:45the one and only Seth Godin, and he's
0:47joining us virtually for an in-depth
0:49conversation on the future of marketing
0:51and building brands that matter. Seth,
0:54welcome to the show. Thanks for joining
0:55us. Well, thanks for having me. It's a
0:57pleasure. Yeah.
0:59Well, you know, you've uh you've spent
1:00decades, you know, working with brands
1:02and organizations to rethink how
1:04marketing actually works, but I think
1:06what we'd like to know is what are you
1:08seeing today in this moment uh of how
1:10marketing may be changing and how some
1:13things may remain the same in the
1:14future?
1:16Well, let's get our terms right, cuz
1:18still, 40 years later, people don't
1:20understand what marketing is. So, we
1:22can't talk about how it's changing till
1:23we talk about what it is.
1:25It's not hustle or hype or getting the
1:27word out. It's not promo. It's not
1:30interrupting people. It's not even
1:31buying ads.
1:33Those things worked really well in 1973.
1:37That if you bought an ad on MASH,
1:40you were going to reach 70 million
1:41Americans all at once. It was bigger
1:43than the Super Bowl every week.
1:46And so, you needed to make average
1:47products for average people, cuz it was
1:49average people that would see your ads.
1:53And the internet completely turned all
1:55of this upside down.
1:56Permission is the idea of delivering
1:58anticipated, personal, and relevant
2:00messages that people want to get them.
2:02Not spamming them, but being missed if
2:04you were gone.
2:05And most of the time
2:08successful brands are built with your
2:10customers talking about you, not you
2:13talking about you.
2:14So,
2:15some people
2:17because that's where the money is, think
2:18marketing is about spend.
2:21It right? It's not. Marketing is about
2:23creating the conditions
2:25for other people to eagerly spread your
2:28idea.
2:30So, now, to answer your question,
2:33it's becoming really clear because in an
2:35era of AI, in an era of too much noise
2:38and not enough attention,
2:41it's almost impossible to hustle your
2:42way to success. It feels like that's the
2:45only option, but it's not an option. It
2:46doesn't work.
2:48All the reality is is it's all about
2:50people, about stories. That's one of the
2:51things that's been meaningful about the
2:53work that you've done is that's the
2:54thing that's not changing is people are
2:56still going to be the buyers. AI
2:58not anytime soon are they going to be
3:00the buyers, right? So, this is about
3:02This is about people. Yeah, when AI is
3:04the buyer, you're going to lose.
3:07Right? If you If your business is built
3:09on answering RFPs and being the
3:10cheapest,
3:12and you can be the cheapest and succeed,
3:14congratulations. Your job is easy. You
3:15don't need any marketing help.
3:17Right? That Walmart grew and grew and
3:19grew cuz it was like, "We got average
3:21stuff and it's cheaper than anywhere
3:22else. Come buy it."
3:24But that's not why you need a marketing
3:25department. You need a marketing
3:26department to sell things that people
3:28think are worth it that aren't easily
3:31measured, things that are worth it that
3:33aren't the cheapest.
3:35And when an AI shows up, it's hard to
3:37teach it that. So, it just goes and buys
3:39the cheap one. And if that's what's
3:41going to happen, you're going to race to
3:42the bottom, and that's not going to be
3:44good.
3:47Well, I think one of the things about
3:48the storytelling aspect
3:51uh uh
3:52that conveys a lot of value, right? How
3:54do you think in the in small business
3:57today that's having to face this sort of
3:59technology challenge uh with adopting AI
4:02and learning how to use it and leverage
4:04it, but also trying to have that people
4:06element,
4:07the story is the thing that kind of
4:09connects the dots. Can you just talk us
4:11through how a small business should be
4:13thinking about storytelling in their
4:14business?
4:16Well, here's the key fork in the road
4:17with AI.
4:19The current cycle is cost reduction.
4:22How can I use AI
4:24to use less people, spend less money?
4:27And you can't cost reduce yourself to
4:28greatness.
4:29So,
4:31that's quickly going to be replaced by
4:32the opportunity to use AI to make things
4:35better, to use AI to make your work
4:37harder, but more valuable.
4:40And
4:41where do we go when we want to tell a
4:43story? It begins with a simple question.
4:47Who do you want to help your customers
4:49become?
4:51And then the second question is, what
4:53are their customers hiring you to do?
4:56And they're probably related.
4:59When you help someone get to where they
5:01want to go all along, you don't have to
5:03push very hard.
5:04On the other hand, if you're trying to
5:06persuade people who think you're wrong
5:08that you're right,
5:09you don't have enough time or money to
5:10do that.
5:12That's so true.
5:13Uh how do you build trust in this in
5:15this uh sort of AI-driven world, right?
5:18Cuz you've talked a lot about uh the
5:20philosophical operating system, how the
5:22bedrock of the connection with people is
5:24trust. How do you do that today?
5:27Yeah, so what's a brand? A brand is not
5:29a logo.
5:30A brand is a promise. It's an
5:32expectation. The example I like to use
5:34is this.
5:35If Hyatt Hotels announced that they were
5:37coming out with a line of sneakers,
5:39we have no idea what it would be like.
5:42But if Nike announced they were opening
5:44a hotel, we know exactly what it would
5:46be like.
5:47Because Nike has a brand and Hyatt has a
5:49logo.
5:50So, you make a promise when you show up.
5:54And trust is super simple. Trust is, do
5:57I think you're going to keep your
5:58promise? Did you keep your promise? So,
6:00if you make audacious
6:03promises constantly and you don't keep
6:06them,
6:07then you're the Wizard of Oz. I don't
6:09trust you.
6:10But if you make real promises and keep
6:13them when it's hard, especially when
6:16it's hard, that's how you build trust.
6:19Who do you think uh does that really
6:21well? Just in your experience.
6:24You know, you got Nike that knows how to
6:25do that and deliver on their promise.
6:27But like just that layer of trust, who
6:29do you think really does that really
6:31well in your experience? So,
6:34think of a brand
6:36that you admire.
6:38You just found one.
6:40Right? So, they don't have to be famous
6:41brands. I just bought a a replacement
6:43for the glasses I'm wearing because my
6:45prescription changed and that company
6:47that used to sell them doesn't make them
6:48anymore.
6:49So, I bought them from this other
6:50company and they came in just a little
6:53bit off.
6:54And it was online and it you know, I was
6:56like, I'm never going to hear from them.
6:5920 minutes later they wrote back. We had
7:01two interactions with an optician and
7:03they're going to make it right. So, am I
7:05going to trust them next time? Well, of
7:07course I am.
7:08That is worth so much more than a Super
7:11Bowl ad.
7:12That the opportunity when a customer
7:15raises their hand and says something's a
7:17challenge, it's in that moment when
7:21trust is on
7:24order, right? And if you say, well, due
7:26to unusually heavy call volume our phone
7:28trees have changed, please leave a
7:30message and the AI will call you back.
7:32You just made a very clear statement
7:35about your marketing priorities and
7:36about whether I could trust you or not.
7:39It's a A really powerful way to look at
7:41it. You know, um
7:43You know, I've heard it said that, you
7:45know, a company may own its brand, but
7:47the rest of the world owns its
7:48reputation. Yeah. And
7:51it goes really clearly into what you're
7:53saying. And the thing that's really
7:54interesting in a lot of companies is the
7:55marketing team is like, I own the brand.
7:59But I think you probably have a little
8:00bit different of a point of view about
8:02marketing's contribution to the brand
8:04and what the rest of the business is
8:06really doing to deliver on the brand.
8:09>> So, talk to us talk to us about where
8:11they get it wrong and where we get it
8:12right.
8:13The first piece of business advice I got
8:14was in 19
8:1681. When I got off 82, I got offered a
8:18job two different jobs.
8:20And I said to my old professor, uh
8:23I want to work for a marketing-driven
8:25company cuz I'm a marketer. He said, "Do
8:27you want to work for a marketing-driven
8:28company or a market-driven company?"
8:31And I said, "What's the difference?" He
8:32George said, "A marketing-driven company
8:35is run by the marketing department.
8:37A market-driven company is there to
8:39serve the market.
8:41So, let's think about, I don't know, a
8:42famous German car company that makes
8:44diesel cars. So, five engineers and some
8:49accountants get together and they decide
8:50to come up with a scheme to write some
8:53code that will defeat the European
8:56emissions tests and allow them to cheat.
8:59And it ends up being a huge scandal and
9:02costs them a billion dollars in fines.
9:05And the question is, was that a good
9:07marketing move or not?
9:09And cuz that's what it was, was a
9:11marketing move. But the marketing
9:13department probably wasn't in the room.
9:15Probably not.
9:16>> So,
9:17everything your company does that
9:19touches the market, how you design
9:21things, how you answer the phone, how
9:23much you charge, what kind of stuff
9:25you're dumping in the river, those are
9:27all marketing decisions. And if you're
9:29not touching them, then you're not
9:30really in charge of the marketing.
9:33So true. And that everything you just
9:34talked about is a team sport.
9:36And,
9:37>> you know,
9:39how do you think
9:41best
9:42like small businesses maybe don't have
9:44all of the team inside of their
9:47business?
9:48How do you think
9:49a small business should think about that
9:51teamwork right at a small scale and it'd
9:54be great for you to talk about at a
9:56larger scale how teams can better work
9:58together to really understand that
10:00the brand really is built as a team.
10:03This is a great question.
10:05Um
10:07inside the organization big or small,
10:10people are keeping track of something.
10:13At an investment bank, they're keeping
10:15track of their bonus and how much money
10:17they made today.
10:19But that's not true at almost any other
10:20company.
10:21Mostly we're keeping track of what will
10:23I tell my boss?
10:24Will this get me in trouble?
10:26Is this going to be a hassle? Am I
10:28taking a risk? What am I getting
10:30measured on?
10:31And if you're relying on a false proxy,
10:33something that's easy to measure,
10:36but not helpful, you're going to keep
10:37measuring it and you're going to go in
10:39the wrong direction.
10:40So, you know, back in the early days of
10:44email marketing,
10:45if you had an employee who was walking
10:48out the door, stealing laptops and
10:50staplers and selling them,
10:52you'd fire them.
10:54But if you've got someone on your team
10:55who's emailing large numbers of people
10:58to make the quarterly numbers work,
10:59you're letting them get away with it and
11:01it's costing you way more money than
11:02some stolen laptop.
11:04So, what do we measure? What actually
11:07happens in meetings?
11:08What are we keeping score of? What
11:10question do we ask?
11:12If you ask the right question, you will
11:15be amazed at how quickly the mission of
11:19the organization, its purpose,
11:21becomes clear.
11:22And so, you know, when I was talking
11:24about email marketing in the '90s and
11:26the
11:26'00s, I encouraged companies to put up
11:29two big numbers It's the wall where
11:30everyone could see them when they walked
11:32in. One number is
11:34how many people
11:35subscribe to hear from us.
11:37And the second number is what percentage
11:39of them opened the last email we sent.
11:42If those are the two numbers that
11:43everybody sees on their way in,
11:45you can bet people are going to change
11:47their behavior to make those numbers go
11:49up.
11:50And when I was at Yahoo,
11:52the thing that wrecked the company
11:55was the stock ticker.
11:56Because there were 3,000 people who sat
11:59there all day long watching the stock
12:00price.
12:01And if they did something that made it
12:02go up in one day, they did it more.
12:05And you can make it go up in one day,
12:07but it doesn't go up in one year if
12:09you're doing the wrong thing.
12:11I would say because I've worked, you
12:13know, in public companies before and
12:15that tendency to hit that quarterly
12:18earnings number uh
12:21I mean, it's a it's a tough one to
12:22really operate a business and deliver on
12:25your your your brand promise
12:28when you've got a you've got to send the
12:30price out there, you've got to raise it
12:31up, you've got to you know, do these
12:33things that really erode
12:35what you've been spending all this time
12:37as a marketer trying to do to help us
12:38show up authentic, show off that people
12:41can believe what we're doing, that we
12:42you know, I mean, all of those kinds of
12:43thing. It's it's a real trap in a big
12:45way, the measuring the wrong thing.
12:47Yeah, well said. Well, just speaking of
12:50authenticity,
12:51what are some of the things like I'd
12:53love to give you I would love for you to
12:56if you if if it's something that you can
12:57do it this way cuz I'm basically asking
12:59for a friend
13:00>> work on the fly, but Mhm. I'd love some
13:02this not that
13:03on maintaining authenticity
13:06Yeah. in in your messaging and also on
13:09the maybe on the internal, too. I'd love
13:10for you to go like do more of this,
13:12maybe not a lot of that. Yeah. Well, for
13:15people listening at home, we didn't
13:17practice this. Mhm.
13:20But I was totally waiting for you to ask
13:22me about authenticity cuz authenticity
13:23is a crock. Authenticity is overrated.
13:26Authenticity is a trap.
13:28Authenticity is for your best friend.
13:30Authenticity might be for your family.
13:33Authenticity is not for your customers.
13:35Because if your surgeon is authentically
13:38in a bad mood, you don't want them to do
13:40a lousy job on your knee implant. Right?
13:42That if the server at the International
13:45House of Pancakes, home of foreign food,
13:47if you go there
13:48and they're in a really bad mood, you
13:49don't want them to spill syrup all over
13:51you. Authenticity is not what you're
13:53asking for. You're asking for
13:55consistency.
13:58Consistency is what professionals do.
14:00Consistency is what we buy when we pay
14:03money
14:04to a brand or call a company or small
14:06business. Consistency is what your
14:09employees want when they get paid,
14:11right? They don't want the check to come
14:12Wednesdays and sometimes on Fridays and
14:14sometimes be a little higher and
14:15something. They want it to be
14:17consistent. So as soon as we can say
14:21and actors have no problem with this,
14:23right? George Clooney doesn't say, "Oh,
14:25George Clooney would never say that."
14:26Because he's not George Clooney, he's an
14:28actor.
14:29Well,
14:31a small business says
14:33"We're looking at a customer and we're
14:35saying we make these ballet slippers
14:38and we think they will help you." But
14:39they don't actually do ballet. They are
14:4260-year-old white guys with pot bellies.
14:44They're making something for someone
14:46else. Empathy.
14:48So what we're looking for is the
14:50ability, the commitment to adopt
14:54a fake authenticity that is called
14:56consistency.
14:58To say, "No matter which angle you look
14:59at us from, we're going to be like this.
15:02We're not going to talk about you behind
15:03your back. We're not going to manipulate
15:05you. We're not going to sneak things
15:07into the contract when you're not
15:09looking. We're going to be consistently
15:11the people we say we are."
15:14And if you want to go home and do some
15:16other weird thing, that's on your time.
15:18But when we're here, we're consistently
15:22doing the thing we promised and we don't
15:25care about being authentic.
15:28Great. I love this answer.
15:30And one of the things that uh I would
15:32say has been just in the past couple of
15:34minutes we've been chatting the theme uh
15:38of bringing that consistency to life
15:39really has a lot to do with being
15:41intentional about your culture. You got
15:43to You got to live by some similar rules
15:46to deliver with that kind of you know
15:47consistency. So
15:50tell us the Seth Godin you know uh sort
15:53of culture building at you know advice
15:55of how we can do this better as
15:56businesses.
15:59Well, I have it easy and I have it hard.
16:01And the reason is cuz there's only me. I
16:04don't have any meetings cuz no one goes
16:06but me.
16:07Um
16:08but it's hard because that means there
16:12isn't anyone to bounce things around
16:14with.
16:15So what I decided over the years
16:18as my organization got bigger and
16:20smaller is there is a role
16:23named Seth Godin.
16:25And it's not the person you might have
16:26dinner with. It's not the person you
16:28went to summer camp with. It's the role
16:30of Seth Godin.
16:32The same way Patagonia has that voice.
16:36There's no difference.
16:38And so small businesses get hung up
16:40because small businesses are usually a
16:42bunch of freelancers who are working on
16:45their own hustling to make a buck per
16:47hour.
16:48And so it feels like it's personal.
16:51But it's not. You're playing a role. So
16:54here's a great vivid example.
16:57Uh 25 years ago
16:59in my 100-year-old house the heat broke
17:01completely in the winter when it only it
17:03only breaks in the winter. And I called
17:06four different firms to come replace the
17:08boiler give us a estimate whatever.
17:11First guy comes
17:12and he's not the owner of the business.
17:15He is the technician.
17:17He walks into the house, he puts
17:19slippers on.
17:20I said, "You're going to the basement,
17:21you don't have to wear slippers." He
17:22says, "No,
17:23we wear slippers."
17:25And then he hands me a clipboard. He
17:27said, "While I'm downstairs, look this
17:28over."
17:29It's the names of 25 of the people
17:32within 1 mile of your house and their
17:34phone numbers who have agreed that if
17:36you want to call them for a referral,
17:38they will answer the call.
17:40Wow. And when he got back up to the top
17:41of the stairs,
17:43I said,
17:44"You're hired." And I canceled the other
17:46three calls.
17:48Because this is all I wanted. Right? All
17:51I wanted was a firm that played the role
17:54of we are professionals and we care, not
17:58I'm a guy with a screwdriver and I'll
18:00say whatever I feel like.
18:02So, we can act like Patagonia because we
18:05can say,
18:06"People are watching. Nothing's off the
18:08record. Everyone's watching all the
18:10time. How do we want to behave when we
18:13know our mom is watching or our
18:15customer's watching or our competitors
18:16are watching? If we always do that, we
18:19never have to worry about keeping our
18:20story straight."
18:22That's amazing.
18:23One of the things that you've done a
18:25really good job uh
18:26at articulating over the years is, you
18:28know, obviously marketing uh
18:30demystifying marketing, right? There's a
18:33uh I would say that there as marketers,
18:35you know, as a marketer myself,
18:37you know, there's a some bad behaviors
18:39and things that develop reputations in
18:41different markets and things like that.
18:42Like you talked about with email
18:43marketing and some of the other things
18:44that that have gone out there.
18:47But I think one of the things marketers
18:49struggle with is trying to
18:51differentiate.
18:52And trying to do something meaningful or
18:55or or say something remarkable in such a
18:59crowded world. And I love, you know, I
19:01just wanted to you to just do the purple
19:03cow, you know,
19:04>> Sure.
19:05thing just to unpack that for everybody.
19:08Yeah, we'll come back to differentiation
19:09in a minute, but But talk about
19:10remarkable first.
19:12Early on we talked about the idea
19:14that the word is going to spread cuz
19:16your customers talk about you not cuz
19:17you talk about you.
19:19Okay, what are they going to say?
19:21If you don't give them something to say,
19:23they're not going to say anything.
19:25They're not going to talk about some
19:26gimmick you had. They're not going to
19:28talk about how hard you're trying to put
19:30your kid through college. They're not
19:32going to talk about how desperate you
19:33are for them to make cash flow.
19:36They're going to talk about something
19:36that helps them.
19:38They will talk about something that
19:40raises their status or gives them
19:42affiliation or them insider uh
19:45status. If you give them that to talk
19:48about,
19:49they will talk about you.
19:52And we can
19:54create that. So, in New York City there
19:57are 50,000 restaurants.
19:59And if a restaurant shut, very few
20:02people would miss it.
20:03On Broadway and 90th Street about 30
20:06years ago they opened a restaurant
20:07called Carmine's. It's an Italian
20:08restaurant.
20:10Carmine's did two things, maybe three.
20:12Three. One, they served more garlic than
20:15it was reasonable to eat.
20:17Two,
20:18they served portions that were twice as
20:21big as any other restaurant, meant for
20:23sharing. And three, you couldn't get a
20:25reservation unless you had a party of
20:27six or more.
20:30As a result,
20:32when you went to work the next day you
20:33had to tell everyone where where you
20:34went last night cuz A, it was a party,
20:36and B, you smelled like garlic, and C,
20:38you had a great story to tell about how
20:39much insane food that they served you.
20:42And then if someone said, "Well, we
20:43should go back." You had to go find four
20:46other people to join you or you couldn't
20:47get a reservation.
20:49So, built into the dynamic of Carmine's
20:52restaurant is the engine of
20:54remarkability, the thing that makes it
20:56worth talking about.
20:58Most small businesses say, "You can pick
21:00anyone and we're anyone."
21:03And if that's what you're saying and
21:05you're hoping you're going to win some
21:06Google search,
21:07Uh you're going to hold your breath for
21:08a long time.
21:11I love it. Well, I'd say
21:13differentiation, right, is the is the
21:15thing that
21:16uh we're trying to do in a in a big way
21:18to stand out.
21:20And I think one of the things that's
21:22been interesting with social media has
21:25made this idea of
21:27um
21:28I'm going to just call it personal
21:29branding for just a second a much more
21:31accessible thing than maybe you just
21:34have access to media. The the personal
21:36brands back in the day, right, you you
21:39didn't have access to mass media. It
21:40was, you know, print and and things.
21:43And TV and maybe movies. And and so
21:47what's happening with companies is, you
21:49know, this idea that there are a few
21:51voices and faces that tend to show up to
21:53support these brands.
21:56How important do you think
21:58the personal branding element
22:01within a company brand, how can those
22:04sort of work in concert and where do
22:07they sort of break apart?
22:09Yeah. Um well, I'd love to hear about
22:11some of the things that you're working
22:12on, but uh the short version is everyone
22:15has a personal brand.
22:17And if you're not doing anything with
22:18it, well, that's what your personal
22:19brand is.
22:21But a brand is again, what do I expect
22:24when I hear from you?
22:25The magic of a human being as an avatar
22:30for a brand is human beings are
22:32complicated. They have a lot of surface
22:34area. They can do things that are
22:36appropriately remarkable that a faceless
22:39brand has trouble with.
22:41Downside, of course, you can't own a
22:43person and that person might let you
22:46down.
22:47And so like, you know, when I was at
22:50Yahoo the first few months I was there,
22:52they were delighted to have me going
22:54around
22:55being a personal brand connected with
22:58this.
22:59But as the stock
23:02price went up and decided to get more
23:03conservative, they said, "You know, we
23:06don't want anybody to be the face of
23:07Yahoo."
23:08I was like, "Fine with me. That's too
23:10much responsibility anyway."
23:12Um and so, I don't think this really
23:14makes sense for a public company
23:17unless it's some, you know, crazy
23:19billionaire who owns a lot of the stock.
23:21I do think it makes it a lot of sense
23:23for smaller organizations to put a face
23:26on what they're doing. But that person
23:29has to understand it's not really them.
23:33It's just someone who looks like them.
23:35Cuz if they try to do the authenticity
23:37thing and talk about how much how
23:39annoyed they were when they dropped
23:40their kid off at school this morning,
23:42now it it's not a person helping a
23:44brand, it's a brand giving a person a
23:46platform to just talk about themselves,
23:48which isn't the point.
23:52I think um one of the things that's
23:54really interesting is when uh
23:57you have uh
23:58somebody being sponsored by a brand and
24:01it kind of goes wrong.
24:03You know, when you have an internal
24:04person, at least they know they want to
24:06keep their job. The external person, you
24:09know, has that.
24:09>> Yeah. Well, you know, I've I've heard um
24:12I want to talk about social media just
24:14for a second because,
24:16you know, I'd say this this medium uh
24:19has I'd say grown in significance uh
24:22even more. It Popularity has been one
24:25thing that social media was. But now,
24:28I'd say as this medium has grown and
24:30developed, there's there's more
24:31significance to it.
24:34Um and so, one of the things that I'd
24:35love to just hear you talk about, you
24:37know, this idea of uh uh people and
24:39brands cuz it what happens, you know, I
24:41I I have I had a friend say it's the
24:43faces in your feed that slow your
24:45scroll.
24:46And you have this idea of corporations
24:49trying to participate in social media
24:51and they really, really struggle. And
24:53then you have the people
24:54uh that have all of the voices and where
24:56all the influencers have come from.
24:59So, I What's your commentary on that
25:01What's What's going on with social media
25:04and the significance of it that's really
25:06contributed to building companies?
25:09Well, let's begin with this. I talked
25:10about false proxies earlier.
25:13Mark Zuckerberg really wants you to
25:14focus on certain numbers.
25:16Those numbers aren't important to you.
25:19They're important to him.
25:21Making those numbers go up
25:24it's not your job.
25:25Right? You're Don't be an unpaid doobie
25:28for them. I have 400,000 Instagram
25:29followers. I didn't do anything to have
25:32that happen.
25:33But, I
25:34you know, if I post something about a
25:35new book, maybe 12 people on Instagram
25:38will buy it.
25:40The number of Instagram followers I have
25:41is completely irrelevant to the change I
25:43seek to make in the world. It's a
25:45distraction. Don't focus on that cuz
25:48it's not why you're here.
25:50Then, the second part of it is making
25:53sure
25:54that there's no gap between the
25:57commotion you're making to get attention
25:59and the work you're doing to gain trust.
26:02As well as the work you're doing to
26:04cause action.
26:05So, Wendy's has between 15 and 20 people
26:08working on their uh social media
26:11accounts.
26:12And they're sort of notorious for the
26:13way they throw insults around on social
26:15media.
26:16Has it sold one Frosty? Has it sold one
26:19hamburger?
26:20Right? I'm glad they're amusing
26:22themselves. I'm glad they're getting
26:23paid to amuse themselves.
26:25But, what's the purpose of Wendy's?
26:28Is that its purpose? Is that what they
26:29want to do more of?
26:31So, that If so, they should start a talk
26:32show, right? But, that's not what they
26:35signed up to do.
26:37So,
26:37we have to really be clear. Are you
26:40looking for awareness? Are you looking
26:42for
26:43uh
26:44certain kinds of proxies or you're
26:46looking for action?
26:48And if you're looking for action, the
26:49answer isn't how do I get more famous?
26:53The answer is how do I get less famous
26:55and more trusted?
26:57How do I create tension?
26:59Because tension is relieved by people
27:01taking action. Not how do I relieve
27:04tension for people on the subway who are
27:06going like this and looking at more than
27:08500 messages in an hour. Cuz none of
27:11those people are stopping and saying,
27:13"Oh, look, the vase I've been waiting
27:14for is on sale." and hitting buy. Every
27:17once in a while someone becomes a
27:18Kardashian. But it's probably not going
27:20to be you.
27:22And we don't need any more Kardashians.
27:23We already have the ones we have.
27:27For sure. I I think uh
27:30you know, in building the brands of the
27:31future, one of the things that uh
27:34you know, you I think you were sort of
27:36saying it right there or maybe you just
27:37a double click on it is
27:39that's the better versus louder, you
27:42know, kind of approach.
27:43What would you say would be some key
27:46things uh
27:47for just entrepreneurs to think about
27:50about becoming better versus louder?
27:53So,
27:54I was doing some research about a a
27:56business I did
27:58uh
27:58as a customer worked with years and
28:00years ago. It's called Garagiste.
28:02Garagiste uh does more than $30 million
28:05a year selling wine.
28:07And the way they do it is there's an
28:09email list. And if you're on the list,
28:12uh you get an email a couple times a
28:14week
28:15describing in incredible prose
28:17this find of a wine. And you click a
28:20button and they add it to your box and
28:22then three times a year they ship you
28:24whatever wines you've put aside.
28:27And here's a business run by one guy
28:29with a few assistants doing $30 million
28:32a year in revenue and with enormous
28:34amount of profit and so much leverage
28:36cuz he can walk into a winery that's
28:38struggling and buy all their wine.
28:40Right?
28:41Well, famously
28:43he sent a note and a press release out
28:45saying, "We're not taking any new
28:47sign-ups.
28:48We're done."
28:49Because it's enough.
28:51Our goal isn't cuz he wouldn't be able
28:54to keep delighting people
28:56after 130,000. He had 130,000 email
28:59addresses. He can't get enough great
29:00wine for more people. That's about
29:03better,
29:04not louder. It's about better. Those
29:06130,000 people showed up and showed up
29:08and showed up. $30 million a year's
29:10worth. That's enough.
29:12And so, when you have this bottomless
29:15pit for attention, this need to just one
29:18more click, when you got people who
29:20you're measuring on how much did they
29:22get the word out,
29:23don't be surprised that you're starting
29:25to reach average people. And average
29:27people aren't going to buy your
29:28software, and average people aren't
29:29going to buy your book, because they're
29:31average. They chose to be average.
29:33You're looking for the other people,
29:35the ones who are going to talk about
29:36you, the ones who are going to challenge
29:38you to do better, the ones who are going
29:39to eagerly pay more for better.
29:42So, when you pick your customers, you
29:43pick your future.
29:47I think uh
29:48a lot of what you're talking about is uh
29:51the acts that you take should have
29:52meaning,
29:53uh and that meaning shouldn't have to be
29:55measured by the easiest thing to count.
29:58Yeah. It's a a big a big part about it.
30:01Um
30:03you know, what what do you think is kind
30:05of the next
30:07the next evolution for marketing, right?
30:09You know, there's uh you know, you talk
30:11about email marketing, organic search
30:13was it for a while, paid social.
30:15You know, what are some of the things
30:16that you're you're sort of thinking
30:17about? And now, I'm in tactics land, I
30:19get that, but like what what do you
30:21think is sort of the the next evolution
30:24uh in
30:25you know, marketing?
30:27I'll tell you what it's not.
30:29It's not tricking
30:31Chat GPT to recommend your stuff to
30:33people
30:34by somehow inserting code and whatever.
30:37There there are plenty of people who
30:38want to sell you that today. They have
30:39no clue what to do.
30:41I think
30:42when we add AI to the equation,
30:45many people are going to use it to just
30:46make everything cheaper.
30:48And some people are going to use it to
30:50make it better.
30:51To invite somebody to be in a community,
30:53eagerly participate with a
30:57company, you know, just to to brainstorm
30:59something I thought of 2 seconds ago.
31:02I can take pictures of
31:04my entire tool chest, the mess that is
31:07my basement.
31:08I can upload it to a company that makes
31:10tools that I trust. And I'm working on a
31:12project. And now I can say,
31:15"Hey, I'll just put it in uh I don't
31:17know the name of it uh uh
31:20Techless. Hey Techless, uh
31:22I'm working on this and I can't find
31:24piece X."
31:25And it has seen all my tools. And now it
31:27could say back to me, "Oh, it's right
31:30over there next to the the widgets." Or
31:31it could say, "You don't have that tool.
31:33Would you like me to get it to you by
31:35tomorrow?"
31:37The more I teach it, the happier I am.
31:40The more I teach it, the more their
31:42brand is worth to me. The more likely it
31:44is that I don't go to Amazon and buy the
31:46cheap one.
31:48And the idea that a brand can have
31:50someone standing right next to me doing
31:52a service for me that I want them to do
31:55is a whole new level of permission.
31:58And
31:59eBay doesn't have permission with me
32:00like that. Quicken doesn't have
32:02permission with me like that. Very few
32:04companies do cuz they're all skulking
32:06around in the background spying.
32:08AI will have do some of that, but the
32:10real opportunity is to show up and be
32:13welcome and be missed if you are not
32:15there.
32:16Wow.
32:17I think you uh uh
32:20probably just said one of the most
32:22useful uh ways of using AI
32:25that I would love. You know, any project
32:28that you're working on, if it knows you
32:29that well, can make that recommendation.
32:31I mean, that's a that's a pretty rad uh
32:33use of AI.
32:35You know, I I you've been I don't know
32:38One of the things you said um
32:41in our our pre-conversation
32:44was that you're like I I've talked for
32:4520 years, you know, I've I've done this
32:47a lot. I you know, and that's why you
32:49said sort of the no rehearsal thing.
32:51Um
32:53But I you've said so many things and
32:55talked about so many topics.
32:57Uh what's kind of something new that you
32:59haven't really talked about a lot or
33:01what sort of what's brewing on the edge
33:03of you know, sort of Seth Godin's
33:05viewpoint?
33:07It's really interesting to watch
33:11what causes people
33:13to glaze over a little bit and what
33:15causes people to get excited.
33:17If you talk to people about
33:20straightforward
33:22fairly simple things they can do to
33:25transform their day, they're all ears.
33:27All right, what did you have for
33:28breakfast? Yeah, I have this new
33:29breakfast regimen. But when you talk to
33:32them about things that take a long time
33:35evolution being a great example their
33:37eyes glaze over.
33:39And AI is in both categories. AI is
33:43here's a hack you can do today. Take a
33:46picture of all your bookshelves. Now AI
33:48knows where all your books are.
33:50And you'll never scrounge around looking
33:52for where it is. It knows.
33:53Versus
33:56are you going to upskill in the future
33:57or are you going to be deskilled?
33:59Are you going to work for an AI which is
34:01going to be a really unhappy experience
34:03or is an AI going to work for you?
34:06And if you're going to have AIs work for
34:07you, you better start hiring them now.
34:10And learn how to be a good boss of an
34:12AI.
34:14And so in the last few months I've
34:16developed a bunch of really cool things
34:19with AI. Not my writing, my writing I do
34:21myself. Um and
34:25it's fascinating to me that most of my
34:28peers and many of the people I talk to
34:30aren't doing that.
34:32And for $20 a month, what are you
34:33waiting for?
34:35Because here's this squadron of summer
34:37interns who work for almost for free.
34:40They're not that good, but they're very
34:41eager.
34:42And uh
34:44if we can learn how to harness this
34:46power
34:47then we don't have to be a victim.
34:49And I think that shift is right in front
34:52of every small business in any field I
34:55can think of. And
34:57small business people tend to be working
34:59too hard to pay attention to what they
35:01ought to be doing next.
35:05It's amazing.
35:06Speaking of uh I think you called it um
35:10There's just sort of a long-term view
35:11and I I just want to think about just uh
35:14you've had a the opportunity to look
35:16back on a lot of things and there's a
35:18whole future ahead um and when you think
35:21about or look at the next generation of
35:22entrepreneurs, what do you hope that
35:24they choose to do differently than the
35:26generation before us?
35:29Well, it's going to be heartbreaking if
35:31I
35:32uh
35:32focus too hard on what I'm hoping for.
35:35But the book the book I wrote The Song
35:37of Significance was basically about
35:39saying this.
35:40If you have enough technology to be
35:41listening or watching this,
35:43you won the lottery. You're richer than
35:45the last king of France. Not only that,
35:47but you have enough freedom to spend
35:49part of your day doing something like
35:50this.
35:51So,
35:52why trade that in to hustle for a couple
35:56extra shekels when you could do
35:58something that mattered?
36:00And
36:01so when AI shows up and gives us all
36:03these
36:04leverage points,
36:06are we going to use it to come up with a
36:08dog walking service that's 1% better
36:10than the existing dog walking service?
36:13Or are we going to do something that it
36:16doesn't have to transform the world, but
36:17it should transform someone.
36:20That we should show up in a way that
36:22people would be glad we did.
36:24Cuz our job is not to do our job.
36:27Our job is to solve problems, to solve
36:29problems for other people, to make
36:31things better by making better things.
36:34That didn't used to be true. 200 years
36:36ago, your job was to feed yourself or
36:38you would die.
36:39Now, you don't have that problem. We
36:40don't I don't know anyone who's starving
36:42to death and you probably don't either.
36:45And so,
36:46we're wasting this moment when we could
36:48be creating art and beauty and
36:50connection and possibility and also feed
36:53our families.
36:54I think that getting tricked into
36:56thinking that your job is to make Chase
36:59Bank happy with your cat with your bank
37:01account is a mistake.
37:04Well, Seth, it was really awesome to get
37:06a lot of your wisdom, be able to help us
37:08all along, be able to help all these
37:10entrepreneurs along the way.
37:12Uh, I just appreciate you, you know,
37:14being willing to sit down and talk with
37:15us. Thanks for joining us in the studio.
37:16This was our first virtual one and I
37:19thought it went awesome and appreciate
37:21you taking the time.
37:22Well, I'm glad I could be a pathfinder
37:24here. Thank you for the work you do and
37:26this was a great conversation. Thank
37:28you, Chris.
37:29>> Absolutely. Thanks.

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