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How to Achieve Inner Peace & Healing | Dr. Richard Schwartz — Transcript

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0:00welcome to the huberman Lab podcast
0:02where we discuss science and
0:03science-based tools for everyday
0:05[Music]
0:08life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a
0:10professor of neurobiology and
0:12Opthalmology at Stanford School of
0:14Medicine my guest today is Dr Richard
0:17Schwarz Dr Richard Schwarz is the
0:19founder of internal family systems
0:21therapy which is a unique form of
0:23therapy that's less centered on your
0:25relationship to other people but instead
0:27focuses mainly on identifying the parts
0:29of yourself and your personality that
0:31tend to emerge in different situations
0:33and that tend to create anxiety resent
0:35or depression another key feature of
0:37internal family systems therapy is that
0:39it's not just focused on fixing
0:41challenges within us it also teaches you
0:43how to grow your confidence openness and
0:45compassion now today's episode is
0:47different than any other episode of the
0:49podcast that we've done before and
0:51that's for two reasons first Dr Schwarz
0:53takes me through a brief session of ifs
0:55therapy so you can see exactly what it
0:57looks like in practice and then he takes
0:59you The Listener through it as well so
1:02as you'll soon observe and experience
1:04internal family systems therapy allows
1:06you to work through challenging sticking
1:08points basically the parts or feelings
1:10within you that you don't like to have
1:11and then it shows you how to convert
1:13those feelings into more functional
1:15aspects of yourself so as you'll soon
1:16see internal family systems therapy is
1:19both super interesting and it's an
1:21incredibly empowering practice it's also
1:23a form of therapy that's now been
1:25studied and for which there's a lot of
1:26peer-reviewed science to support its
1:28efficacy by the end of today's episode
1:30Dr dick Schwarz will have shown you that
1:32a lot of the negative reactions that we
1:34tend to have with different people and
1:36things tend to originate from a few
1:38basic patterns that once we understand
1:40we can really transmute into more
1:42positive responses it's a really
1:44interesting practice it's one that you
1:46can apply today during the episode and
1:48that you can return to in order to apply
1:50going forward in your life before we
1:52begin I'd like to emphasize that this
1:54podcast is separate from my teaching and
1:56research roles at Stanford it is however
1:58part of my desire and effort to bring
1:59bring zero cost to Consumer information
2:01about science and science related tools
2:03to the general public in keeping with
2:05that theme this episode does include
2:07sponsors and now for my discussion with
2:10Dr Richard
2:11Schwarz Dr dick Schwarz welcome thank
2:14you Andrew it's a delightful to be with
2:16you yeah I've uh heard so much about you
2:19and your work and internal family
2:22systems models um I've had the
2:25opportunity to do a little bit of that
2:27work to be honest I don't know whether
2:29or not the person I did that work with
2:31um was formerly trained in it so I'd
2:33like to start off by just asking you
2:35what is internal family systems
2:39and what are the different components
2:42and as we do that I'm sure people are
2:43going to be thinking about these various
2:45components for their own life and the
2:47people in their lives corre yeah well
2:51originally I developed it as a form of
2:53psychotherapy which is probably the way
2:55it's used most now but it's also become
2:58a kind of Life practice and a just a a
3:02paradigm for understanding the human
3:04mind and to as an alternative to the
3:07cultures Paradigm so that's um saying a
3:13lot uh and it's been quite a
3:16journey I know of fraan
3:19psychoanalysis I know of you know any
3:22number of different branches of
3:23psychology that have a clinical slant to
3:25them there's cognitive behavioral
3:26therapy what are what are the core
3:28components of internal family systems
3:31yeah so one basic assumption is that the
3:34mind isn't unitary that actually it's uh
3:38we're all multiple personalities not in
3:40the diagnostic sense but we all have
3:45these what I call Parts other systems
3:48call
3:49subpersonalities ego States things like
3:52that uh and then it's the natural state
3:54of the mind to be that way that we're
3:57born with them because they're all very
4:00valuable and uh have qualities and
4:03resources to help us survive and and
4:07Thrive but trauma and what's called
4:13attachment injuries and the slings and
4:15arrows we suffer Force these little
4:19naturally valuable Parts into roles that
4:23can be
4:24destructive often they don't like it all
4:27but because they're frozen often in time
4:29in the during the trauma and they live
4:32as if it's still happening they're in
4:35these protective roles that uh can be
4:38quite extreme and interfere in your life
4:41and uh yeah so I just stumbled on the
4:45phenomena 40 now I think it's 41 years
4:48ago and it's been you know amazing ride
4:52so at the time were you already
4:54practicing as a clinical psychologist I
4:56actually have a PhD in Maryland family
4:58therapy so I was
5:00part of the movement in Family Therapy
5:02away from inas Psychic work and there
5:05was a polarization and we thought we
5:08could reorganize families and heal all
5:10these symptoms just by doing that we
5:13didn't have to muck around in the inner
5:14world and I went to prove that and this
5:17was about
5:191983 by getting a group of bulimic kids
5:22together in their
5:23families
5:25and tried to reorganize the families
5:27just the way the book said to and failed
5:30that the the kids didn't realize they'd
5:33been cured and they kept binging and
5:35purging so out of frustration I began
5:37asking why and they started talking this
5:40language of parts and they would say
5:42some version of when something happens
5:44bad bad happens in my life it triggers
5:47this critic who's calling me all kinds
5:48of names inside and that goes right to
5:51the heart of a part that feels empty and
5:53alone and
5:55worthless and that's so distressing to
5:57feel that the binge part comes in and
5:59takes me out takes me away from all that
6:02pain but the critic comes in and attacks
6:04me for the
6:05binge and then the criticism goes right
6:10to the heart of that that worthless part
6:13so to me as a family therapist this
6:15sounded like what I'd been studying in
6:17external families these circular
6:19sequences of interaction and so I just
6:22got curious and just started to explore
6:25are these different parts that exist
6:27within each and all of us
6:30are they represented by a clear and
6:32distinct voice from the other or do
6:35people typically experience them as just
6:38the self like my inner critic uh um
6:41you'll give us the other names and
6:43titles um or is this happening typically
6:47below people's conscious awareness some
6:49of both so most people are aware they're
6:53critic
6:55and uh but other other times you're not
6:58aware of these parts call Exiles that
7:00you've locked away because you didn't
7:02want to feel their feelings they're
7:04stuck in these bad trauma scenes and to
7:08survive in your life you had to push
7:10them away and so with those parts a lot
7:13of people aren't really consciously
7:15aware of them until these protector
7:18Parts give space and open the door to
7:21the
7:22Exiles I'd like to take a quick break
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9:44huberman I definitely want to go into
9:46what the various protector roles or
9:49titles are labels excuse me and the
9:52Exiles before we do that uh since you
9:54brought up the topic of trauma this is a
9:57topic that I think many many people are
9:59interested in I'm just curious you know
10:01how do you define a trauma um
10:05and why do you think it is that traumas
10:08tend to lock us into uh a state that was
10:13representative of an earlier time why is
10:16it that it's so linked to this thing of
10:18time
10:19perception yeah the why question I can't
10:22totally answer but definitely is and for
10:25me traumas aren't necessarily
10:27traumatizing so something bad happens to
10:30you and if you can access what you and
10:35Martha Beck were calling the the self
10:37capital S and you go to the part of you
10:40that got hurt by what happened instead
10:43of pushing it away and locking it up and
10:45you embrace it and you bring it closer
10:48to you which means going to your
10:51suffering which is counter to what most
10:53of us try to do but if you were to do
10:56that and you could help it on Lo the
10:59feelings it got from the trauma then
11:02you're not traumatized what's
11:04traumatizing is something bad
11:07happens these more vulnerable parts of
11:10us the most sensitive parts of us get
11:12hurt or feel worthless because of what
11:15happened or get
11:16terrified and then we lock them away
11:19because we don't want to feel that
11:22feeling anymore and everybody around us
11:24tells us to just let it go just move on
11:27Don't Look Back and so we wind up
11:31exiling our most sensitive parts simply
11:34because they got hurt and then when you
11:37have a lot of
11:39Exiles you feel more delicate the world
11:41seems more dangerous because anything
11:44could trigger that and when they get
11:45triggered they'll they'll blow up
11:47they'll take over so it's like these
11:50flames of raw motion come popping out so
11:54other parts have to are forced into
11:57these manager roles or or these
11:59protective roles and some of them are
12:01trying to manage your life so that you
12:03don't get triggered anymore so that for
12:06example nobody gets close enough to you
12:08to trigger any of that or so you you
12:12look really good so you don't get
12:15rejected or perform at a really high
12:17level to counter the
12:19worthlessness many of those become the
12:21critics because in their effort to try
12:24to get you to look good they're yelling
12:25at you to try and behave and and do what
12:27they want so you look better
12:30uh and and then there are other what we
12:33call manager protectors that are for
12:35some people particularly women have
12:38these massive caretaking parts that
12:41don't let them take care of themselves
12:42and take care of everybody else and so I
12:44could go on and on there's a lot of
12:46common manager roles and I want to make
12:50clear as I'm talking about this that
12:52these are not the essence of the parts
12:53and that's a big mistake that most of
12:55the field has made is to assume the
12:58critic is just a internalized critical
13:01parent
13:02voice instead of listening to it and
13:05hearing that it's desperately trying to
13:06protect you so none of these are what
13:09they seem that's the role they've been
13:10forced into and the analogy again is to
13:13a external
13:14family like kids in in dysfunctional
13:18families are forced into these extreme
13:21roles that aren't who they are it's the
13:23role they got forced into by the
13:24Dynamics of the family so the same is
13:27true with this internal family
13:30so most of us have a lot of what we call
13:33managers they got us here they they help
13:37us in our careers and they other systems
13:40would call them the defenses or the
13:43ego uh and and you know in spirituality
13:47they get vilified
13:48too
13:50but their whole MO is keep everything
13:54under control please
13:56everybody and you'll survive the world
13:59has a way of breaking through those
14:00defenses triggering an exile when that
14:03happens it's a big emergency because
14:05again these flames of raw motion are
14:08going to overwhelm you and make you have
14:11trouble functioning or even getting out
14:13of bed so there are other parts that
14:16immediately go into action to deal with
14:18that
14:19emergency and in contrast to these
14:22managers they're impulsive reactive Damn
14:25the Torpedoes I don't care about the
14:28collateral damage to your body to your
14:31relationships I just got to get you
14:33higher than those Flames or D them with
14:35some substance or distract you till they
14:38burn themselves out so we call those
14:41firefighters and again these are just
14:43the roles when released from these rolls
14:46they'll transform into being something
14:48very
14:49valuable so the firefighter the inner
14:53firefighter role is one of the Exiles
14:55that surfaces under conditions of of a
14:59lot of emotion maybe we could um this is
15:01a beautiful description and I'm
15:03completely on board this idea that we
15:05have multiple aspects of self or selves
15:08inside Yung said that too I think right
15:10like y had all this a long time ago yeah
15:13and I what what I like about this
15:16protectors uh Slash managers versus
15:19again not versus because they're combed
15:21but as a distinct category the Exiles is
15:24um just feels very true to me um and I
15:28like the
15:29the directness of the language so maybe
15:31we could just um like create a mental
15:35grid for people like if let's say I came
15:38to you as a patient and I said listen I
15:40you know I'm I'll just be D I'll be
15:42honest why not do not let's do it
15:45secretly I brought you here to get
15:46therapy no no um but okay so I'm
15:50somebody who uh for a very long time has
15:53been able to organize his life um I tend
15:56to have smooth interactions with my
15:59co-workers great friendships um I now
16:02have a very good relationship with my
16:04immediate family very good in fact I'm
16:07still working on a few things with a few
16:09people but I'm living in a mode of uh
16:13great uh joy and appreciation these days
16:16however um I'm I'm not going to give the
16:18details of this for sake of privacy but
16:21um you know the other day I was in a
16:22discussion with a family member and they
16:24had a grievance with me that I felt we
16:26had already addressed and it um and it
16:29became very high friction in
16:31conversation very quickly to the point
16:33where we tabled as an idea that maybe we
16:36just take some like serious space like
16:38um which was not reflective of how
16:42deeply I love this person or they love
16:43me it was just a feeling of both of us
16:45just being in this like high tension
16:46place like and
16:50um uh fortunately the conversation ended
16:53well with a path
16:55forward that involved more contact not
16:58less that I that both of us feel really
17:00good about but in that moment where I'm
17:03feeling overwhelmed MH and they're
17:06feeling overwhelmed MH what's going on
17:09there we're both adults so overwhelmed
17:12with anger at each other or frustration
17:14frustration yeah frustration like that
17:17um previous conversations I felt I
17:20hadn't
17:23um I was saying things uh they were
17:27saying things but I feel like there was
17:29so much underlying tension based on a
17:31history of poor
17:35communication nested on top of a of a of
17:38the kind of an intensity of emotion that
17:40we both tend to carry um and somehow we
17:44just like couldn't parse things from
17:47that state yeah and uh so I sat in my
17:49chair and I just told myself okay I'm
17:50going to not say anything yeah for five
17:53minutes because I know myself right it's
17:55not that I thought I would say something
17:56really barbed wire but I just thought
18:00this is not going to work like I'm I'm
18:02slamming my head against a wall they're
18:04not hearing me I'm clearly not hearing
18:07them and I the thing that helped me
18:11through that was just because it was
18:12what was taught to me I just decided to
18:14surrender MH and the word surrender used
18:17to mean to me letting go of Truth yeah
18:19and it feel really scary because when
18:21you say surrender it's almost like
18:23saying one context is surrender means
18:26you're right no matter and you're right
18:27I was just going to say that's right but
18:29I've come to realize that surrender to
18:30me is just a it surrender in the moment
18:33yeah so that I can get um better Optics
18:37yeah uh internal and external Optics so
18:40to me the the the thing of embracing
18:42surrender in those types of moments very
18:46uncomfortable uh but I now I've learned
18:49it's it's a great um a great way to get
18:53perspective um but even as I describe it
18:56the the whole situation was so heavy
18:59I came out of that call even though it
19:00ended well and was
19:02like yeah like uh that was that was like
19:06i' never run a marathon but I'd rather
19:09run a marathon than do two of those a
19:10week totally agree and yeah I had one of
19:13those with my wife a few days ago okay
19:15all right well and yeah very similar
19:18just uh caught that part and said okay
19:22let's just let it go for now and we'll
19:24talk later so I could give you my take
19:27on what happened but if you wanted to we
19:30could just go in and do a little
19:32exploring sure yeah yeah sure okay
19:36should we start with the frustrated
19:38angry part sure all right you
19:41ready I believe so yeah
19:44okay so remember that uh
19:48feeling and then focus on it and find it
19:51in your body or around your
19:55body okay where do you find it somewh
19:59between the middle of my midsection and
20:02up like right be my forehead like
20:04there's pressure it's great both places
20:07it's great you have such clarity about
20:08it so as you focus there how do you feel
20:13toward this part of
20:16you oh no it's very unpleasant so you
20:19don't like
20:20it no I don't like it yeah which makes
20:24sense because it does you know sometimes
20:27escalate things with your friend and uh
20:31doesn't leave you feeling good so I
20:33understand why you don't like it but
20:36we're going to ask the parts that don't
20:37like it to give us the space to just get
20:39curious about it and see if that's
20:42possible okay
20:46um okay so how do you feel toward it
20:50now feel a little bit of relaxation in
20:53the in the the head part of it
20:57um yeah it's it's it's funny how when
21:00you ask me to localize it it's so clear
21:02it's like this thing inside me it's like
21:04this about the size of like a teddy bear
21:06that's just like but it's not a it's not
21:07a good thing it's like pushed up there
21:09but then when you said to get curious
21:11about it um feels like it kind of drops
21:14down a little bit and kind of kind of
21:15Moves In A little maybe softens a little
21:17bit so you do feel curious toward
21:19it yeah all right so go ahead and ask it
21:23what it wants you to know about itself
21:25silently up to you either way whichever
21:28more comfortable well since this is a
21:30podcast and none of this is comfortable
21:32anyway for me to do in public uh to if
21:35I'm quite honest um yeah just ask ins
21:37sry sure um no I'll I'll do it out loud
21:40um okay so what do you want me to know
21:44about you yeah and just wait for the
21:47answer don't think I know you got a big
21:50cognitive part so we're going to ask
21:51them when to
21:52relax and just whatever comes in terms
21:55of the answer just wait for it
21:59well my answer is based on the feeling
22:01that occurred immediately after asking
22:03it which was the answer was um I I can
22:08dissipate and then I kind of felt it
22:11dissipate okay so it feels like an
22:13energy that when condensed sucks
22:16MH but when I look at it softened a
22:19little bit and then asked the question
22:21you asked and then it feels like it just
22:22kind of went into the rest of my body
22:24but not poisoning the rest of my body
22:26just kind of um
22:29mixing in with you know of course we're
22:31speaking in complet you know in in
22:33mystical terms here but um right so it
22:36it relaxed it may not have dissipated in
22:38the way we think about that it might
22:40have just relaxed more MH but just keep
22:43asking it what's it afraid would happen
22:46if in that context it didn't try to take
22:49over in the way that it did just ask
22:51that question that if it if it didn't
22:53try to take over yeah what's it afraid
22:55would happen if it hadn't tried to take
22:57over oh
22:59just wait for the answer yeah that's a
23:00good question okay so what would happen
23:04if you didn't take over my system that
23:07way condense from my St from my stomach
23:10to to my head when I'm feeling that way
23:12yeah
23:14um don't think yeah oh the answers are
23:17coming really quick um that I wouldn't
23:20be able to discern the truth okay so the
23:23truth is really important to this part
23:25of
23:25you yeah yeah because it tends to
23:29surface when I'm hearing something that
23:30I that you know wrong that I believe to
23:33be fundamentally untrue typically about
23:37my thoughts or feelings right I've come
23:40maybe with age I've come to the
23:42conclusion that two people can look at
23:44the same interaction or same thing and
23:47have two very different versions of it
23:49I'm okay with that the part that I'm
23:52very very sensitive to people in my life
23:54know this is when someone else tells me
23:56how I feel right what my motives are or
24:00how I feel that to me is like like that
24:03that's a kind of a
24:05hard um fast way to engage this thing
24:09okay so just stay with this thing just
24:10stay with it okay and let it know you
24:13get that that having people misinterpret
24:17your motives is really really hard for
24:20it and ask him more about that just
24:23again don't think but ask why that's so
24:27hard why does that bother it so much
24:30and what's it afraid would happen if it
24:32let that go yeah so what why are you
24:36afraid
24:37to why do you have to step in yeah when
24:40that
24:41happens my answer is not going to be
24:43very satisfying for the listeners but or
24:46for me um but
24:49it it's
24:51saying because if you can't hold on to
24:54your
24:56truth then nothing will make
25:00sense so there's something about making
25:02sense or not nothing making sense that
25:05it's really scared to is that right yeah
25:08I mean uh I I decided to become a a
25:11biologist um and to try and understand
25:15the meat inside our heads and body that
25:17is the nervous system because I felt and
25:20I still feel that it uh it can reveal
25:23some fundamental facts or truths as um
25:26you know understanding reality as it
25:29were is really important to me because I
25:31feel
25:32like humans including
25:35myself of course um are so prone
25:39to
25:42misinterpretation
25:43so like the truth as a thing out there
25:47I'm willing to let go of completely
25:49right like completely right the truth as
25:52it exists for knowing for certain what
25:56my motivations were
25:58or what did or didn't happen but
26:00typically it's about motivation what did
26:02or didn't happen you usually can parse
26:03with somebody yeah
26:06um that's that's something I feel I need
26:08to protect at all cost yeah so speaking
26:11of protect and so this is a protector
26:13part right ask it if it's protecting
26:16other parts of you that are vulnerable
26:19and get hurt when someone
26:21Miss Miss attunes to what your motive is
26:25just ask that question don't think
26:28that's an easy that's a fast one not
26:30easy but it's a fast one yeah the part
26:32of me that that that feels injured Yeah
26:35by that is the fact
26:38that I believe that I at least at the
26:45beginning and throughout most of a
26:47relationship and even if a relationship
26:49ends for whatever reason that my I know
26:54it's my nature to try
26:56and imagine as much goodness in the
26:59intent of the other person as possible
27:01so if I were to let go of this response
27:05the keep call in my mind I'm calling
27:08like this like it's like a titanium
27:10teddy bear shaped thing but it doesn't
27:12it's not feel like a it's like a
27:14titanium block there
27:17um I
27:19would um potentially move into a mode of
27:23judgment mhm um of them it's interesting
27:27because I there are many people from my
27:30past and maybe even a few from my
27:32present that people close to me who are
27:34pretty well qualified tell me like I
27:38should dislike them or cut them out of
27:41my life and um I don't there are a few
27:46maybe one or two instances of people
27:48I've cut out of my life but it's my
27:50inclination always to just try and see
27:51what can what can exist yeah so that and
27:55that part feels important to me I don't
27:56know why it's important now that come to
27:58think about it like um well we can ask
28:01but yeah so I'm what I'm hearing is this
28:03guy this titanium
28:05guyh is keeping it bury another part
28:09that can be very judgmental of the other
28:11person yeah I don't like feeling that
28:13yeah it it feels energetically wasteful
28:16yeah and it feels more than that it
28:18feels incredibly sad yeah it's sort of
28:20like I think to to accept that part of
28:24myself is to kind of give up on some
28:27fantasy Y which is probably an
28:30unrealistic fantasy which is why I'm
28:32calling it a fantasy I realize yeah yeah
28:34like this um because I I look at and I
28:38always have since I was a kid I look at
28:40people as we are among the animals we
28:44the curators of the Earth because we're
28:45good at technology development but aside
28:47from that and our were like just like
28:49you wouldn't I can't imagine that a
28:52raccoon you know looks at another
28:54raccoon and it's was like that's a bad
28:56raccoon it's just a ra rabid
28:58right you know and they just
29:01um i i s yearn for the
29:04same the same sensitivity to our own
29:08species I get that yeah like I don't
29:11hate
29:12anybody well there might be parts of you
29:14that do but I hate behaviors okay I hate
29:18um things that people have said or done
29:20not certainly mostly to other people not
29:22to me but I yeah
29:24being like really being angry at someone
29:29in a in a pervasive way not just in the
29:31moment yeah is is something that's very
29:33difficult for me but what I'm hearing
29:35what the what we heard from this part
29:38it's afraid if it doesn't do this it a
29:42part that judges the other probably in a
29:45you know not so nice way would be
29:48released does that sound right yeah so
29:51there is that part in there it's just
29:53that you've been able to kind of Exile
29:56it yes okay yeah I'm comfortable with
30:00the idea that you take the appropriate
30:02amount of distance could be zero or
30:05could be near infinite but that I should
30:08take the appropriate amount of distance
30:10from things and people so that I can be
30:12in the most loving stance toward them or
30:16that yeah I'm not trying to sound
30:17technical here with all the parallel
30:19constructions but I've thought this
30:20through a lot like there's some people
30:21that I
30:24um that there's no limit to the extent
30:27to which I I want to interact with them
30:29you know we have other things to do
30:31we're not g to spend all our time
30:32together and then there are other people
30:33that I love them but I I know that I
30:36have to keep a certain amount of
30:37distance in order to continue to love
30:39them this is the same
30:41thing so in that moment it's almost like
30:44but it's coming up without my conscious
30:46thing it's not like saying listen that's
30:47the kind of person I can you know talk
30:50to like once once a month or something
30:53and I'll just add you know in
30:55professional settings not now but in the
30:58distant past when I was in a very
31:00hierarchical structure of I'm still in
31:02Academia still teach but not um running
31:05research anymore um formally you know
31:08like I had a couple um senior colleagues
31:11that I really loved and respected but
31:14that they um they would say or do things
31:17that I thought were frankly unethical to
31:19other people and to me that I felt them
31:21as kind of abrasive so I might like the
31:24physical manifestation of this is I
31:26would make it a point to to like walk
31:29past their office door quickly so that
31:31they didn't say Hey cuz I don't want to
31:32interact but I I don't I'm not familiar
31:35with cutting people out of my life right
31:37I'm just not familiar with doing that I
31:39don't I sort of don't believe in it as a
31:41value let's pause for a second I'll give
31:43you a little overview where we areh so
31:46we started with this guy who came up
31:48with your friend and is trying to
31:51protect that
31:53relationship because if you continue to
31:57be Mis understood in terms of your
31:58motives it would have an impact does
32:00that sound right yeah the only thing I
32:02as a family member um yeah that not that
32:05matters but close family member got it
32:07yeah and in exploring this
32:11part asking what it's afraid would
32:14happen if it didn't do
32:16that so there's this other part that
32:18might come out that would be very
32:21judgmental of that family member and
32:24really might have a bad influence on
32:28your relationship with that person does
32:29that sound right that's correct okay so
32:31we have these two well we have you who's
32:35noticing all this which we should talk
32:37more about and then we have these two
32:40parts that are sort of polarized but uh
32:44one the judgmental one you really don't
32:47like and so you really go to lengths to
32:51keep it
32:52Bay and you're you kind of admire this
32:55guy uh and and but you also know that he
33:00can get in the way at times too does all
33:02that sound right yeah that's right
33:04because I'm describing a recent
33:06situation where the presence of this
33:08like titanium teddy bear S I don't know
33:12why that's amusing to me to say that um
33:15the shape of a teddy bear I'm not seeing
33:16a teddy bear in there but the rough
33:18roughly that size and shape um it
33:20creates a protection but a pressure
33:22internally that's super uncomfortable
33:25it's actually taking me a couple days to
33:26dissipate this yeah
33:28um
33:31and I do
33:34think somewhat counter to the way I'm
33:36describing it it doesn't prevent me from
33:39saying something it actually if it's if
33:42it's too much it's almost like that's
33:44when words start coming out and they're
33:47not kind right so it's not a real
33:51protector in the sense like it's
33:52preventing me from a course of action I
33:55don't want to take right it's more like
33:57feels like it's kind of extruding all
34:00this stuff and obviously I'm responsible
34:02for my words and actions I know that but
34:04it does feel like it it creates kind of
34:07Tak it takes over yeah that that's the
34:09way to put it so let's let's um go
34:12through that again
34:13so uh first of all I'm so grateful that
34:17you're willing to be this vulnerable and
34:19expose these
34:21parts uh
34:24so this guy actually they're both
34:27probably what we call
34:29Firefighters and very reactive there's
34:32may be some other very vulnerable part
34:34that is involved here we haven't heard
34:36about but uh if I were to be continue if
34:40we continue to work
34:42together I would work to get permission
34:44to go to the judgmental guy
34:46too and what you would find is he's a
34:50protector
34:51too he's not just a bunch of negative
34:54thoughts about
34:55people and as I was hearing
34:59earlier you spent a lot of time in your
35:02life um trying to be fair to people and
35:05to not judge them and to see them what
35:08they do is just their behaviors and not
35:10who they
35:12are which is great but in the process of
35:15doing that sometimes we wind up having
35:18to push away the parts that want to
35:20judge and want to hate and so on
35:24and what I find is if we can go there
35:28and get to know
35:30them they're just protectors too and
35:32they're young and they uh when they are
35:37able to unload the the hate they might
35:40carry the
35:42Judgment they'll
35:44transform so this is a model of
35:47transformation in that sense and it's
35:49there are no bad parts you go to
35:51everybody in there regardless of
35:54how you think they how bad they are
35:58and you get curious about them and you
36:00learn how they're trying to protect and
36:03then we help them out of their
36:04protective roles and help them trust
36:08there's a you who you talked about with
36:11Martha who can run things that they
36:13don't have to do it because most of them
36:15are
36:15young and get them to trust this you to
36:19handle your family member rather than
36:23they have to take over or try to take
36:26over in the way they did does this make
36:28any sense yeah it makes total sense I
36:30you know what you said at the beginning
36:32uh permission to go to the um judgmental
36:34part I was just um you my mind um flits
36:39when I hear that flits
36:41to
36:43um you know two possibilities one's a
36:46novel possibility one's a familiar
36:48possibility The Familiar possibility is
36:50if I were to really
36:52feel the
36:54disappointment that I'm feeling when
36:56this p in the in the other person shows
37:01up again because at least seems to I'm
37:03very familiar with the pattern right
37:05then
37:06um uh it would fundamentally like change
37:10the way that I feel about them that's
37:12right like I'm trying to hold on to the
37:13goodness relationship that's right but
37:15of course I I I want to be very clear
37:18not just for anyone listening but for
37:20myself too that um clearly the the um
37:24the
37:25protecting uh role of this Tian tanium
37:27teddy bear um it's created something
37:30where what the times when things have
37:32broken through from my side they're not
37:35kind right and or they're spoken in a
37:39way that just is not constructive right
37:42right
37:44um
37:46so yeah and then the the second
37:48possibility is that I had considered
37:52this possibility but the the second
37:54possibility is that uh where I
37:58to let myself feel that disappointment
38:01that maybe the relationship could
38:03persist MH um like I've been looking at
38:06those things as mutually exclusive
38:09exclusive yeah um and as I say all this
38:13um I also realize that well the the the
38:18honest disclaimer is like I don't want
38:20to give the impression that I don't
38:21judge people I'm human and I certainly
38:24do I'm just saying that when there's a
38:26relationship that I wish to Main contain
38:28I'll go to Great Lengths to push aside
38:31knowledge of of my own experience Andor
38:34just judgment I've made this
38:37um I've engaged in this pattern in ways
38:40that were ended up being extremely
38:41destructive to me by
38:44completely like putting the blinders
38:46onto things that were right in front of
38:48me and that's what I'm talking
38:49consciously that's what I'm talking
38:50because I adored uh the person so much
38:53in other dimensions like that you know
38:55and you know it's not a
38:57lack of a better word a holistic way to
38:59approach things but I also will say that
39:02in contrast to those types of
39:05relationships the the relationships
39:07where this is where the the titanium
39:09generator is not required feel to me so
39:13like by comparison but also in the
39:14absolute scale feel to me like the best
39:18possible relationships one could have
39:19they're like pinch me type of
39:20relationships like my friendship some of
39:22my relationships to family like my
39:25co-workers and and there are others too
39:28I've certainly had romantic
39:29relationships like that relationships my
39:31relationship to my dog as trivial as
39:33people might think that seems the the
39:35contrast of that like where there's no
39:38need for this protector
39:40part it's like the best thing because it
39:44feels
39:45completely safe and uninhibited yeah I
39:48never have to worry that I'm going to be
39:50taken over from the inside yeah nor do I
39:53ever worry that I'm going to like really
39:55screw up yeah and I hope that if I do
39:57screw up they'll tell me but like it's
40:01uh it's the complete absence of fear so
40:04let me check can and just see how this
40:06has been to discuss and and focus and so
40:10on what's it been like to do this
40:13process
40:15um it's a lot in the sense that um I
40:20don't like feeling that titanium thing
40:23ted bear teddy
40:25bear um it's very it's been very
40:27informative so it's balanced by that um
40:31and maybe that's why I I went into a
40:33little riff about the pleasant
40:35relationships and how um how outsized
40:38positive they are for me they're they're
40:40like a they're like a salv and an Elixir
40:43for me um that uh so maybe I give myself
40:47a little like washover with that because
40:49it it's pretty uncomfortable yeah um but
40:52it's been It's really informative um and
40:54it also tells me that the internal
40:56family systems worked idea of someone
40:57else was uh an attempt at this but so
40:59very different which makes sense because
41:01this is uh your Art and Science so so
41:04I'm grateful yeah so yeah it feels good
41:07what I was saying earlier is if we were
41:09to pursue it we could get to the point
41:12where the teddy bear guy could unload
41:16the feelings he carries that makes it so
41:19uncomfortable and he would transform how
41:21would I how would we go about doing that
41:24just so you you would focus on him again
41:27M we would explore more of what he's
41:30protecting either we would go to the guy
41:32he's trying to keep it Bay that would
41:34ruin a relationship or often these parts
41:37are protecting something much V
41:39vulnerable from your past some young
41:42part that's stuck somewhere in the past
41:45it has a big issue about being
41:47misunderstood in terms of motives or
41:49something yeah it's it not that I need
41:52uh Clarity on this right now
41:54but it's more that it protects the
41:58possibility of a relationship at all
42:00yeah like I think the fear is like if I
42:02were to look through my lens of Truth
42:05what's happened or is happening in the
42:07moment if I were a quote unquote better
42:09boundaried person it' be done yesterday
42:12yeah but so it's sort of like a desire
42:15to live out a
42:17fantasy got it I mean if I'm honest so
42:20so that would be the part that we would
42:23go to that it protects that has this
42:26fantasy of what a relationship should be
42:29or could
42:30be who might be stuck somewhere in the
42:33past and we would learn we would witness
42:36you know you talked with Martha about
42:38compassionate witness we would witness
42:40where he stuck and what was happening
42:42back then and then I would have you go
42:45in and get him out of that time period
42:48then we' have him
42:50unload the desire for that
42:53fantasy that uh keeps you getting hurt
42:58and then I would have you have the teddy
43:00bear see it doesn't have to protect him
43:01anymore and then we would help the teddy
43:04bear unload the feelings he
43:07carries and then he could relax and they
43:10would all start to trust you which we
43:12should talk about a little bit now who
43:14is you who's separate from these others
43:18yeah and for the record I never owned a
43:19teddy bear as a kid I had I had a
43:21stuffed frog I had a teddy bear I had a
43:23well I'm not embarrassed I had a stuffed
43:25frog that I love is Frid the Frog yeah
43:27and um uh but so I don't know where the
43:30teddy bear thing came up but it was the
43:32the shape is so very clear um but let me
43:35let me just uh elaborate on what I was
43:37just saying because when
43:39you separated from him and you found him
43:42here and I asked you how you felt toward
43:45him and you had an attitude about him at
43:48first remember and we got that to relax
43:51and got curious about him then you
43:53started to access more of what I call
43:55yourself with the capital
43:57less so it comes through curiosity comes
44:00well start often starts with curiosity
44:03MH and just to backtrack a little bit so
44:07when I would have uh these clients in
44:10the early days starting to work with
44:13these parts like the critic and so
44:16on uh and I once I got hip to the fact
44:19they weren't what they seemed and they
44:20deserve to be listened to rather than
44:21fought with so I would I would help the
44:26parts that hated
44:27step out and clients could do that
44:29pretty readily so and and when then I
44:32was say now how do you feel toward this
44:34critic and spontaneously people would
44:36say I'm just curious about why it calls
44:38me names all day or even would say I
44:41feel sorry for it that it has to do this
44:43I'm going to help
44:44it and when they were in that
44:49state and I would ask what part of you
44:52is that that's great let's keep that
44:54around they'd say that's not a part like
44:55these others that's me that's my essence
44:58or that's my self so I came to call that
45:01the self with a capital S 40 years later
45:05thousands of people doing this all over
45:06the world turns out that that self is in
45:11everybody just beneath the surface of
45:13these parts so that when they open space
45:15you can access it quickly and has all
45:18these great qualities what I call the
45:20eight C's so curious but also calm
45:25confident compassionate
45:29courageous clear creative and
45:33connected and that person knows how to
45:37heal these parts so once I get somebody
45:40in a lot of what call Self I'll just say
45:44okay what do you want to say to this
45:45part and how does how does it react and
45:47now what do you want to do with the part
45:49I can kind of get out of the way and one
45:52of the Hallmarks of ifs as opposed to a
45:54lot of other
45:55therapies is that
45:57it's not so much about me becoming that
46:00you know good attachment figure to these
46:03hurting parts of you these inner
46:05children you become that you become the
46:07good attachment figure yourself or the
46:10good inner parent or the good internal
46:13leader for these parts and they come to
46:16trust you as a leader and then you get
46:20into it with your family member and you
46:22just remind the part now I can handle
46:24this just let me let me stay and now
46:27when that happens with my wife sometimes
46:30not on a good day I can stay in the
46:34seaword qualities and have a totally
46:36different conversation with her than if
46:38that protector took
46:40over I'd like to take a quick break and
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49:21subject to change for more information
49:23see the episode description I'm struck
49:26by a couple of things that I think
49:28people will be um if I may wise to think
49:32about uh one is yeah in the classic
49:36psychodynamic or CBT model of therapy
49:39right the it's clear that the the client
49:43or patient sometimes it's called right
49:46patient um therapist relationship is one
49:48where it it takes on certain um
49:51components that exist in the outside
49:53world with other people and it's always
49:56um slightly really bothered me um slash
50:00concerned me
50:02that that's the structure and as you
50:05said in uh ifs internal family systems
50:09you become your own kind of therapist if
50:12if you will for lack of a better way to
50:13put it I like that because um uh there's
50:18so much discussion nowadays about you
50:20know parenting yourself and this kind of
50:23thing and um learning to Mother yourself
50:26and father and I actually think there's
50:27Great Value in that I mean I learned by
50:29living alone you know how to cook for
50:31myself and clean for myself these are
50:33I'm mapping to stereotypes here but um
50:35but also to protect myself and to you
50:37know organize myself and be very very
50:39disciplined and um actually running a
50:42laboratory was a great um teaching there
50:44because you're basically a single
50:46academic parent to to all these these
50:48people so you have to you you quickly
50:50realize where you lack maternal
50:52instincts and where you may lack or over
50:55uh overemphasize have hypertrophied
50:57paternal instincts you you so that was a
50:59good for to to see my weaknesses um and
51:02hopefully some strengths too so I like
51:04this idea that that one can play those
51:07roles for oneself
51:10um how is ifs typically done if somebody
51:13doesn't have access to a therapist who's
51:16expert in it or is that really the only
51:18proper Gateway into it no so because I'm
51:21sitting here with the master the the
51:25founder and um and I'm very grateful by
51:28the way for the work we just did so
51:30thank you feels good I I it was a
51:32privilege yeah thank you yeah likewise
51:35um but most people won't have direct
51:37one-on-one access to you so
51:41um it's very
51:44experiential
51:46um I imagine in books and courses people
51:49can learn how to do this and by the way
51:51this isn't this was not preconceived as
51:53a as a pitch for books and courses but
51:55I'm wondering like if can somebody do
51:57this on their own the very first time
51:59that that's what I want to know yeah
52:00yeah so for a long time I resisted
52:04trying to take this directly to the
52:06public
52:07because I learned the hard way that some
52:10systems particularly people with huge
52:12amounts of trauma are quite delicate and
52:15if you start going to these you know the
52:17part we talked about that's vulnerable
52:20inside that has this view of
52:23relationships this kind of idealized
52:25view of of relationships of
52:28yours uh would be what I call an
52:32exile that if we were to go to
52:36it and you know we won't today because
52:39it's requires a lot of vulnerability but
52:41if we were to a lot of EX extreme
52:44protectors might come out and then
52:46people start to get
52:48scared
52:50so uh so it took a long time to figure
52:54out how we might bring it to the public
52:56and safer way and so we just put out a a
52:59workbook for people and it doesn't
53:02involve necessarily going to those
53:04places but there's a huge amount you can
53:07do just by working the way we started to
53:10with these protectors and getting to
53:12know them and know that they're not you
53:14they're just a part trying their and
53:16know it's not anything negative that
53:18judgmental part you've got such an
53:20attitude about or fear
53:22of uh if you were get just to begin
53:25getting curious about it and getting to
53:27know it a bit you'd find out that it's
53:30very valuable part that has a lot of
53:32discernment like you said you know and
53:35wanted wants desperately to keep you
53:37from getting in these relationships
53:38where you get hurt and get so judgmental
53:43because you don't listen to it do you
53:46follow what I'm saying I do I do I in
53:48fact something pops to mind maybe I
53:50could just ask you about it I um my
53:53mind's right on what you're saying but
53:55you know something something occurred to
53:57me as you said it which
54:00is uh if I were to for instance really
54:03feel the feeling of like hey that's
54:05really screwed up or like that's not
54:07like actually feel the disappointment or
54:09judgment that this titanium teddy bear
54:12is trying to protect against
54:15um I realize it leads to a lot of role
54:18confusion and identity confusion that's
54:20right and I'll just be very blunt uh
54:22it's probably not the best thing to do
54:24on a podcast but I'm going to do it
54:25anyway which is is you know this is how
54:27I feel about modern politics I see
54:30things on the left that make sense to me
54:33and things that are to me just
54:35absolutely ludicrous
54:37inappropriate offensive and like just
54:40badly wrong I see things on the right
54:43that make a ton of sense to me and also
54:45things that are inappropriate offensive
54:48and wrong and as a consequence I'm
54:49trying to see the best the the goodness
54:51in both sides right and just kind of
54:53create this kind of uh swiss cheese
54:55model of of the world talking about
54:57politics because it's just simpler to do
54:59and I people at least know the groups
55:01we're talking
55:02about and but then it it leaves me in a
55:05place of no affiliation and I'm then
55:08between one of two stances one of just
55:11kind of standing there being like yeah
55:13well there's no real position in the
55:15middle that is an official position in
55:17the middle
55:20but it also makes me just want to put up
55:22the middle finger to both and say I'm a
55:24double hater but of course I'm going a
55:26adult and a citizen who cares about
55:28people in the country and so I feel like
55:31to being an adult I can't opt out but
55:33there's like I feel unaffiliated I feel
55:36like there's no option for me and and
55:38this Maps pretty well to I think the
55:42identity and role confusion that I feel
55:44when I um place my my again
55:48understanding the truth is a is a
55:49complicated thing but my judgment on
55:53things and people it's like well then
55:55what is my role as a son what is my role
55:57as a as a partner what is my role if
56:00this thing is true and so it's a way I'm
56:02realizing of of protecting the
56:05Simplicity of a role that's right and I
56:07did grow up in a home where like the
56:09roles were like you know you're son you
56:10do certain things like you know you do
56:12you know and um uh so but I also have a
56:17rebellious side to me so
56:19the the the role confusion is something
56:23that I imagine a lot of people are
56:25familiar with with yeah um and when one
56:30and I also believe that when you just
56:31really say well they did something bad
56:34therefore all bad therefore I'm part of
56:36the opposite team right that to me is an
56:39unlived life yeah it's like it's like
56:41it's a a but I see a lot of people do it
56:43and actually sometimes I'm envious of
56:45people that have that ability because
56:47they seem so they seem so unconflicted
56:50right um so it's a tough thing to be a
56:52thinking feeling person at the level of
56:54nuance it kind of sucks
56:57sometimes yeah I'd rather do that than
56:59than um be a double hater or um just
57:04cleanly opt in yeah does that make sense
57:08totally makes sense and what I'm hearing
57:11is that when you're looking at a person
57:14or a political party or issue in the
57:17world you'll hear from these conflicted
57:19Parts they each have perspective just
57:22like our country now hears from these
57:25conflicted parts
57:27and but there you don't have a lot of
57:28access to what I'm calling self in those
57:31context because see one of the seword is
57:34Clarity so again as I was listening to
57:38you and Martha you were talking about
57:40how there are times where you you just
57:42have the sense in your body of what's
57:44right or what's
57:45true that's what I'm calling self self
57:48has that
57:49Clarity uh and self sees Injustice and
57:53self some of those seword are
57:57um courage confidence and Clarity so
58:02there's a impulse also to act to correct
58:05imbalance to correct Injustice too so
58:09self isn't a kind of passive witness as
58:11it is in a lot of spiritual traditions
58:13in ifs it's an act of inner leader it's
58:16an AC of external
58:18leader and too often our actions are
58:23driven by these protective parts and
58:25that's true in our politics now
58:28too um so one of my goals is to try to
58:31bring more self- leadership to the world
58:34to to these
58:36conflicts uh but to do that people have
58:40to unburden they have to release these
58:43extreme beliefs and emotions they got
58:44from their traumas in the past we have a
58:48concept we call Legacy burdens so many
58:51people
58:53have inherited these extreme beliefs in
58:56emotions that came down through their
58:58ancestors and drive their their parts
59:02Drive their
59:04extremes and many conflicts in the world
59:06are driven by these Legacy
59:08burdens and we've gotten good at helping
59:11people unload these these things yeah
59:13we've seen this in the Middle East
59:15recently totally and we you know we're
59:17doing a lot we're doing a lot of work in
59:18the Middle East so we have training
59:21programs there we have and one of my
59:23Visions is to have large scale
59:27Legacy unburdening where large groups of
59:29people come together and we help them
59:31unload the Holocaust Legacy burdens on
59:33the one side and the you know the 1941
59:37Legacy burdens on the Palestinian side
59:39and have more self
59:42accessible to each side and when like
59:45when we do couples therapy or we do
59:47other kinds of negotiated
59:50conflict if People's Parts start getting
59:52into it we'll just say timeout you sort
59:55of did this on your own with your family
59:57member just say time out want both of
1:00:01you to go inside find the parts that
1:00:03have been doing the speaking don't come
1:00:05back until you can speak for them but
1:00:08not from
1:00:09them and come back in in these seword
1:00:12qualities in that state of self if we
1:00:15can hold people in that it's really easy
1:00:18to get out of the conflict if if their
1:00:20protectors are going at it all the time
1:00:23conflicts never change so
1:00:27do you think that people
1:00:29who have the reflex or the ability to um
1:00:35kind of somaticize a bit like I obvious
1:00:39I I don't think of myself as somebody
1:00:40who's like psychosomatic I don't have
1:00:43stomach aches and headaches and stuff
1:00:45unless I caught a virus you know but but
1:00:48I can feel where certain things are in
1:00:49my body pretty quickly and always have
1:00:53um do you think that
1:00:57ifs lends itself better to people
1:01:00who you know feel things somatically
1:01:04versus people that are like really
1:01:05cognitive and in their head because I
1:01:07have that component too I can actually
1:01:09feel the switch yeah like I do it
1:01:11through I'll go into like a narrative
1:01:12and then I start to see the structure
1:01:14like up here yeah and um yeah that
1:01:17happened several times when we were were
1:01:19working together like I would have you
1:01:21stay with something and then the
1:01:23narrator part would kick in yeah and and
1:01:26then I would try to refocus you but you
1:01:30know I lived in Boston for 10 years so I
1:01:33worked with lots of cognitive people who
1:01:36didn't know their bodies who had you
1:01:38know just were in that rat race to try
1:01:41and get tenure and so on been there yes
1:01:44me too yeah tenure is nice but um one
1:01:48should tend to their emotional selves
1:01:50while while they're while they're
1:01:51pursuing it but just to answer your
1:01:53question they can do it but we first
1:01:56have to start with that thinking part
1:01:59and get it on board and get it to step
1:02:01out and to to stay out long enough that
1:02:04they can feel their bodies so yeah you
1:02:08know it lends itself to anybody but with
1:02:12people like that it takes a while for
1:02:13that thinking part to trust that it's
1:02:16safe to let them in their into their
1:02:19bodies so if we were to just step back
1:02:21for a moment and um do sort of a top
1:02:24Contour summary of the
1:02:26process
1:02:28um someone brings forward a uh a memory
1:02:33of recent or distant memory of some
1:02:36thing that made them feel not
1:02:38good and you try and localize some
1:02:42sensation in the body get a sense of its
1:02:44location PA there I'll tell you why yeah
1:02:47because if they find it in their body
1:02:49they're and they direct the question
1:02:51there and they wait for the answer to
1:02:52come from there they're less likely to
1:02:54be in their head
1:02:56so it sort of short circuits that
1:02:58thinking part and so many people come to
1:03:01therapy and that thinking part thinks
1:03:03it's supposed to do the therapy it's you
1:03:05know CBT or whatever even a lot of the
1:03:09more exper not experiential but a lot of
1:03:12the more psychodynamic
1:03:14therapies the thinking part is really
1:03:16trying to explain why they feel stuff
1:03:19right so this is getting them out of
1:03:21that and getting them to actually listen
1:03:23inside into what they think is their
1:03:26body but it's really these parts that
1:03:28live down there that they haven't had
1:03:31access to because the thinking part is
1:03:33running things so much got it and then
1:03:37one places some attention from The
1:03:39Stance of curiosity they were like
1:03:41what's there what's it what's it trying
1:03:43to say exactly so um and then you start
1:03:46to reveal the the underlying layers of
1:03:48what's it protecting what are the what
1:03:50are those things that are protective
1:03:51trying to say yeah it's not even you're
1:03:54trying to reveal it's just that you're
1:03:56asking these questions and the answers
1:03:59start coming I see oh I love this
1:04:01because I'm a big believer in seeding
1:04:02the unconscious mind and then letting
1:04:04things surface either in sleep or in
1:04:07meditative States or
1:04:11um has internal family systems been
1:04:14combined with some of the therapies that
1:04:17are now getting tested um still in
1:04:20clinical trial stage uh around um
1:04:23psychedelics yeah in fact
1:04:26two days ago we just completed a uh ifs
1:04:30and ketamine Retreat oh wow so we have
1:04:34and we're doing it more and more like I
1:04:35said I'm trying to bring this more out
1:04:37of the Psychotherapy world so we invited
1:04:3932 leaders to come of various kinds and
1:04:44had uh three days where they would do
1:04:47camine and then do if the nice thing
1:04:50about
1:04:51psychedelics is it puts those manager
1:04:53parts to sleep somehow a lot of the time
1:04:56yeah I I've been open about the fact and
1:04:58I always have to provide the disclaimer
1:05:00I I I don't just say this for to protect
1:05:02me I say this to protect listeners that
1:05:04I do think um young people should avoid
1:05:08psychedelics the brain is already in a
1:05:10psychedelic State it's it's the the
1:05:12amount of plasticity and this is is
1:05:15really tremendous and this is coming
1:05:16from somebody who regrets it but I did
1:05:19psychedelics recreationally as a kid me
1:05:22too um and I regret it I returned to
1:05:25them later a clinical setting um and and
1:05:28derived a lot of benefit I think from
1:05:30them uh namely high do psilocybin and
1:05:34MDMA but both of those are still very
1:05:37much illegal uh you can get into a lot
1:05:39of trouble for taking them and or
1:05:42certainly for selling them so um that's
1:05:44the cautionary note there and the
1:05:46clinical trials are really impressive in
1:05:48my opinion spectacularly impressive
1:05:50especially for MDMA and for the
1:05:52treatment of PTSD but the FDA this uh
1:05:56last year um did not approve MDMA uh as
1:06:00a treatment for PTSD I think going
1:06:02forward in the new Administration it's
1:06:04likely that it will get approved but who
1:06:07knows there uh who knows so anyway
1:06:08that's a bunch of um pseudo legales
1:06:11jargon but but it's it's sincere if I
1:06:14were an 18 or 19y old person or
1:06:1830-year-old person listening to a
1:06:19conversation about psychedelics and how
1:06:21they can be helpful I would want to also
1:06:23know that there are instances where
1:06:25people take them and they don't have the
1:06:27appropriate guidance in and through it
1:06:28and out of it and it leads to serious
1:06:31problems so is a real real thing that
1:06:34we're talking about that's why these
1:06:37caman clinics where they just hand them
1:06:39the drugs and yeah medicine and just
1:06:41leave them on their own scary to me um
1:06:45I'm proud to say that ifs has been
1:06:47adopted as one of the primary models for
1:06:50psychedelics now great because it's a
1:06:52really nice pit and as I was saying
1:06:54earlier that
1:06:56what I see happening often not always is
1:06:59these manager Parts go
1:07:01offline and that releases a lot of self
1:07:05so you start to uh to just feel those
1:07:09c-word qualities
1:07:11emerging and that's a big in uh
1:07:14invitation to all these Exile parts to
1:07:16come and get
1:07:17attention and so as people come out of
1:07:20the ketamine experience I can work with
1:07:23them for 15 minutes and do something
1:07:25would take maybe five sessions because
1:07:29they can get access to parts that they
1:07:31couldn't get or it would take a long
1:07:33time to convince their protectors to let
1:07:35us go to and we can unburden those
1:07:38Exiles and then bring back their
1:07:40protectors and so I love it I I you know
1:07:44and camine is the legal one so that's
1:07:45why we do it and uh and the other nice
1:07:49thing and I don't know as a scientist
1:07:51how much you you would go with this but
1:07:54um
1:07:57ketamine again because it opens the door
1:08:00with these
1:08:01protectors you can also taste what I
1:08:04call the big self you taste this what
1:08:07they call nonu state that can be quite
1:08:10Blissful and uh some people go God
1:08:15and then as you come back you have this
1:08:19sense of I'm much more than this little
1:08:22body and this little ego that there is
1:08:25some much bigger and that's why they're
1:08:27using it with end of life and why it it
1:08:31and sosyan has such a big impact on
1:08:33depression and because it sort of lifts
1:08:36you out of this little box your
1:08:38protectors have you in to know that
1:08:41there's something much more so
1:08:43interesting I've never tried ketamine um
1:08:46a few years ago I um and I've talked
1:08:48about this publicly as well I I um
1:08:51started um developing a a pretty deep
1:08:55relationship to to spirituality and God
1:08:58and most mostly through the path of of
1:09:00non of giving up control I mean there're
1:09:03just break breaking news folks you can't
1:09:05control everything you know and um uh
1:09:08you can control certain things but um
1:09:11most things know and um the way you
1:09:14describe ketamine is very interesting
1:09:16because as a dissociative
1:09:19anesthetic it works in such a
1:09:22fundamentally different way than say
1:09:24MDMA which is
1:09:26um an empathogen which makes people feel
1:09:29so much more I mean I I sort of half
1:09:32joke that that the aside from the the
1:09:35safety legality stuff the the the
1:09:37concern I have about MDMA is that if one
1:09:40is not in the eye mask if you don't have
1:09:44somebody guiding you through it and
1:09:45taking some notes you know if you listen
1:09:48to a piece of jazz or classical music or
1:09:50your favorite rock and roll album or
1:09:54you're there with yourg or cat or plants
1:09:56I mean you can spend the entire four
1:09:58hours bonding with the plant right
1:10:00you're not going to run off and get
1:10:02married to a plant you're not going to
1:10:04try and fornicate with a plant but um
1:10:07one hopes um
1:10:10but it's a very um precious but very
1:10:14labile situation totally agree because
1:10:17you're it's such a strong empathogen
1:10:20that whatever you direct your attention
1:10:21to internal or external is going to
1:10:25hypertrophy MH so just have to be really
1:10:28careful totally agree you know and given
1:10:31that the neurotoxicity issues seem
1:10:34worked out in that if it's actually MDMA
1:10:36and isn't other things by the way that
1:10:38the big study that showed neurotoxicity
1:10:40of MDMA in Prime non-human primates
1:10:42turned out they were injecting
1:10:43methampetamine what yeah that paper was
1:10:46retracted it was published in science
1:10:47we'll provide a link to the paper and
1:10:49the retraction that the retraction was
1:10:51not as publicized wow methylene dioxy
1:10:54methamphetamine MD ma um has not been
1:10:57shown to be neurotoxic provided that's
1:10:59what people are taking wow um and not
1:11:02taking some combination of other things
1:11:04yeah it's a real tragedy the way that um
1:11:07retractions don't get nearly the kind of
1:11:10popular press coverage that the that
1:11:12initial studies do uh regardless of
1:11:14whether or not the initial study was
1:11:16positive or negative um in any case I do
1:11:19believe there are other routes to um
1:11:21calming down the forbrain in the context
1:11:23of doing this kind of work that just
1:11:25like your thoughts on sure uh when I
1:11:27first wake up in the morning MH I'm in
1:11:29kind of a Lial state
1:11:32but the thing that I don't want to think
1:11:35about comes to my bra I can't avoid it
1:11:38it's like the the uh protectors are are
1:11:40not available they're still asleep so
1:11:42that seems valuable I've tried recently
1:11:44to keep my eyes closed sometimes I'll
1:11:46get up and use the bathroom but keep my
1:11:47eyes closed stay in that still State
1:11:50and explore the Contours of that thing
1:11:54um
1:11:56uh provided it's done safely and not
1:11:58anywhere near water um cyclic
1:12:00hyperventilation breath work done for a
1:12:03few minutes or Cycles you know you
1:12:07know we think can change the brain
1:12:11activity so the forbrain kind of comes
1:12:13off line a bit so all these things just
1:12:16put managers to sleep put managers to
1:12:18sleep like when you go to sleep your
1:12:20managers go to sleep and then you have
1:12:22these weird dreams and that's cuz your
1:12:24Exiles have access to your mind now and
1:12:27they're giving they're trying to give
1:12:28you signals about what they want the
1:12:31other thing I say about psychedelics and
1:12:33the breathing
1:12:34too is that as your your managers go to
1:12:39sleep and your Exile start coming
1:12:42in it can seem really terrifying because
1:12:47these parts are stuck in horrible places
1:12:49often with a lot of Terror and so what's
1:12:52called bad trips is them trying to get
1:12:55attention so they'll come in and they'll
1:12:57totally take over and you look like
1:12:59you're having a panic attack but what
1:13:01we've learned and you know this happened
1:13:03a few times last
1:13:05week is instead of thinking of it as a
1:13:07panic attack or a bad trip to welcome it
1:13:13here's a part that needs a lot of
1:13:15attention it's taken over
1:13:18entirely but if I were to say okay
1:13:21Andrew I see you're really scared but
1:13:24how do you you feel toward this really
1:13:26scared part that's here now and I could
1:13:29get you to say I feel sorry for it then
1:13:32I would have you start to get to know it
1:13:34and work with it and comfort it rather
1:13:36than have a panic attack you would
1:13:39access calm and those
1:13:42c-words and then it becomes a hugely
1:13:46useful uh healing of something that's in
1:13:49you that's in a stuck in a terrified
1:13:52place I'd like to take a quick break and
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1:15:40to function what is so striking to me is
1:15:42that you know and Martha taught me this
1:15:45practice of you know when we think about
1:15:47the things that um create shame for
1:15:52ourselves if we're able to go up and
1:15:54really look at those and own them not
1:15:56from the perspective of I'm proud of
1:15:58them but own them as in us and not of us
1:16:03you know um uh that it's incredibly
1:16:07freeing yeah and indeed it is so freeing
1:16:09right it's like the if this if there
1:16:12were like a secret to life like uh it
1:16:15would at least include that yeah um
1:16:19because let me rip up rip up that for a
1:16:21second because just as an example like I
1:16:25do uh I done
1:16:28workshops where I have people work with
1:16:30their racism you speaking of something
1:16:34very
1:16:35shameful and a lot of people say I don't
1:16:38I'm not a racist I don't have any racism
1:16:40but if I really convince them to look
1:16:43inside and check they'll find there's a
1:16:46little part in there that does spout
1:16:47racist things when they meet somebody of
1:16:49a different skin color has these white
1:16:52supremacy beliefs
1:16:54and they're they're really ashamed of it
1:16:57so if I were to have you focus on that
1:16:59racist voice in there we would have to
1:17:02get a lot of the parts that are ashamed
1:17:03of it to step out and then I would have
1:17:06you get curious about it rather than
1:17:08ashamed of it and ask it about where it
1:17:11picked up this these beliefs and it
1:17:14could tell you and then I would ask do
1:17:18you like having to carry This Racist
1:17:20stuff usually they say
1:17:23no if it's it's unloaded we can just
1:17:25unload it so one of the key things to
1:17:29know is these parts are not the burdens
1:17:32they carry they're all good the little
1:17:36guy who's got the racist
1:17:38rant is a part that got stuck with this
1:17:41beliefs but when he releases those
1:17:44beliefs he transforms into being a good
1:17:48and the mistake our culture makes the
1:17:50mistake that that uh most
1:17:52psychotherapies make is to assume assume
1:17:55that he is that racist
1:17:57rant and to try to Exile him but it's a
1:18:01different way of understanding even very
1:18:04seemingly evil people that they're
1:18:07dominated by these protectors and
1:18:09they're so afraid of their Exiles and
1:18:12they relate inside in the same way they
1:18:15relate outside so if they hate Parts
1:18:18themselves they'll hate people who
1:18:20resemble those parts of them they'll try
1:18:22to dominate those people do you follow
1:18:25what I'm saying yeah and I'd like to
1:18:27really go into this a bit because we
1:18:30hear all the time that when we're upset
1:18:32about something it's something in
1:18:34ourselves that we're really upset
1:18:37about um and for me that isn't always
1:18:40true but that's sometimes true yeah so
1:18:43if I'm upset about the intolerance of um
1:18:47good ideas from people in opposite
1:18:49groups of each other's good ideas um
1:18:55this logic would say that I'm really
1:18:58just disapproving of that aspect of
1:19:01myself that is like black and white
1:19:04judgmental which we already
1:19:07established got me then again you're the
1:19:09therapist so um right
1:19:13so is this always true not always okay
1:19:17but a lot of the time so if you can come
1:19:22to have compassion for that judgmental
1:19:24part of you and not being in battled
1:19:26with it and actually see it as
1:19:28desperately trying to help you be more
1:19:30Discerning and help it unburden and get
1:19:33out of this role that it's in because in
1:19:35the role that it's in it can be
1:19:37destructive we're not trying to minimize
1:19:39that or say you know when I say all
1:19:40parts are there are no bad parts they're
1:19:43no bad parts but they can get into very
1:19:45destructive roles and they can carry
1:19:48these burdens from the past that can
1:19:50drive them to be
1:19:53harmful but
1:19:55part of my work is to help that all that
1:19:57change and uh so if you were to start a
1:20:01new relationship with that judgmental
1:20:03part of
1:20:05you then you would see past the
1:20:07judgmental parts of other people and you
1:20:10could see the Exiles that drive those
1:20:13protectors and you would you would have
1:20:16compassion for them it wouldn't mean you
1:20:17wouldn't stop them or stand up to them
1:20:21but you would do it with compassion
1:20:24right rather than from these hateful
1:20:28protectors uh I think it's important
1:20:30that people hear that namely that if we
1:20:35get in touch with these parts of
1:20:37ourselves that are
1:20:38protectors um that it makes us less
1:20:43vulnerable not more vulnerable totally
1:20:45both to quote unquote attack um but that
1:20:49also I guess put simply that in
1:20:52understanding of ourselves and
1:20:54compassion for ourselves one develops
1:20:56understanding and compassion for others
1:20:58but that doesn't mean that you're um
1:21:01opening yourself up for harm that's
1:21:03right qu and the opposite is actually
1:21:04true the opposite is actually true
1:21:06because these protectors will generate
1:21:08often what they fear so by being so
1:21:13protective they'll create protectors in
1:21:16the other that will attack whereas if
1:21:18they could stay in
1:21:20self self can be very protective with
1:21:23those seword qual
1:21:25ities very forceful sometimes
1:21:29Pierce this idea of uh I'm definitely
1:21:32following that that we will sometimes
1:21:34create in others um you know what we uh
1:21:39fear because it allows us to engage in
1:21:41this unhealthy Dynamic it seem it seems
1:21:44so counterintuitive right uh maybe we
1:21:47take a kind of classic set of examples
1:21:50that I think are pretty common um a
1:21:52person who's codependent with somebody
1:21:54who's a substance abuse addict um or
1:21:58somebody who's very timid and always
1:22:01wants to pacify and somebody who's very
1:22:03dominant when I zoom out from the second
1:22:05case it actually kind of makes me
1:22:07chuckle how how crazy that that is
1:22:09because if you think about it a person
1:22:11who is uh very dominant uh doesn't need
1:22:17somebody very timate in order to feel
1:22:19dominant right they could they could
1:22:21probably uh feel whatever power it is
1:22:24they they need to feel with somebody who
1:22:25is less timid and maybe the relationship
1:22:27would be healthier but that's not how
1:22:28people tend to um other select it's kind
1:22:31of interesting like so it raises a
1:22:34perhaps a bigger question why do people
1:22:36select people that are
1:22:38fundamentally um bad for them okay
1:22:42so I did a book called You're the one
1:22:44you've been waiting for and in it I
1:22:48talked about this whole issue and so for
1:22:52a lot of people
1:22:54you get hurt by your
1:22:57parent and there are parts that want to
1:23:00protect you from your parent but there
1:23:02other parts who are desperate who took
1:23:04on the worthlessness from being rejected
1:23:06by your parent and are desperate for
1:23:09Redemption do you follow
1:23:11this and
1:23:14so uh as you leave and you're looking
1:23:16for a
1:23:18partner that part from a subconscious
1:23:20place can influence your decision to
1:23:23find somebody who resembles that parent
1:23:26in their effort to be redeemed again
1:23:29yeah is this anything like the uh sort
1:23:31of repetition compulsion yeah exactly
1:23:34that we that we tend to repeat a a
1:23:36pattern over and over again as an
1:23:37attempt to resolve not just a
1:23:40manifestation of like dysfunction that's
1:23:42a version of what I'm talking about and
1:23:45so you find somebody who does resemble
1:23:47that person that parent and
1:23:50unfortunately they do resemble that
1:23:51parent and so they'll hurt you in the
1:23:53same way mhm and then your protectors go
1:23:57into one of four modes they'll say I've
1:24:01got to change that person back into who
1:24:03they're supposed to be so they'll try to
1:24:05change the person's
1:24:07Behavior or they'll say I've got to
1:24:10change myself so they'll be who they're
1:24:12supposed to be or they'll say oh this
1:24:16wasn't the Redeemer after all and
1:24:18they'll go looking for the real redeemer
1:24:20is still out
1:24:21there it's always inside and yeah that's
1:24:25what I try to do is to help them see
1:24:26that that redeemer is inside of them
1:24:29itself and if if they if we can go to
1:24:32that Exile who's got this thing for this
1:24:35parent-like person and help it connect
1:24:38to self and help it
1:24:41unburden that whole repetition
1:24:44compulsion
1:24:45disappears because now they can take
1:24:47care of
1:24:48themselves they they trust self to do it
1:24:51they don't need that from some other
1:24:53person like that
1:24:56and so when we're working with couples
1:24:58and you always find some version of that
1:25:00in couples we can get each of them to
1:25:03become their
1:25:04own good attachment figure good
1:25:07caretaker
1:25:08inside that frees up the partner because
1:25:11when this Exile is leading the
1:25:15relationship your partner feels a lot of
1:25:17um sort of Demands or feels a lot like
1:25:21your partner has to take care of that
1:25:23young part of you and can't can't fully
1:25:26do it so there's always this this uh
1:25:29sense of oh a burden you know what I'm
1:25:31saying yeah yeah it's so interesting how
1:25:35romantic relationships are where these
1:25:37patterns get repeated and at the same
1:25:40time I I numerous examples in my life of
1:25:43healthy relationships is that usually
1:25:46the case because people have done the
1:25:48work before or because they had a
1:25:50minimum of trauma in their upbringing
1:25:52both yeah yeah what percentage of um
1:25:56kids adults as well um do you think had
1:25:59a minimum of trauma uh are just because
1:26:03of the way they're wired and the way the
1:26:05stuff is organized within them that they
1:26:07naturally attach to a a good partner and
1:26:11are pretty healthy is it like 25% 30%
1:26:15does it I really can't say because I my
1:26:18sample is very skewed I'm working with
1:26:20Psychotherapy patients who always have a
1:26:23lot of trauma
1:26:25so I really can't say I mean I I I'm
1:26:29very biased well half of marriages in
1:26:32this country and in divorce um and
1:26:36presumably of the ones that don't I'm
1:26:39guessing somewhere between a half and a
1:26:43quarter of those
1:26:46um people are really unhappy sounds so
1:26:50pessimistic but if you just look at the
1:26:52numbers and and I'm an optimist I
1:26:54already acknowledge that I don't like to
1:26:55think about bad stuff and I you know so
1:26:59um yeah I'm guessing that a lot of
1:27:02people um repeat these patterns but it
1:27:06seemed as if maybe 20 30 years ago
1:27:09because these ideas weren't um discussed
1:27:12really so so many fewer people were in
1:27:16any kind of analysis or or personal
1:27:18exploration work
1:27:21that as a society we defaulted to just
1:27:24sort of roll
1:27:26execution um you're a father and a
1:27:29husband so you do certain things and you
1:27:31don't do certain things you're a you're
1:27:32a wife and a mother so you do certain
1:27:34things and you don't do certain and so
1:27:35on um and I think nowadays there's a lot
1:27:38of discussion about you know is is there
1:27:41Resurgence of um organized religion
1:27:45because we've drifted so far from this
1:27:47kind of core structures I mean love your
1:27:50thoughts on that and also what you think
1:27:54doing this kind of internal work on
1:27:56oneself without requiring any input or
1:27:58participation from another uh what the
1:28:01value of that is it sounds like there's
1:28:02tremendous value um to just doing this
1:28:05work for oneself maybe with someone
1:28:07trained in ifs yeah I mean um there's
1:28:12like I was saying there's a lot you can
1:28:13do with working with your protectors and
1:28:16helping them get to know self like we
1:28:19didn't do it but had I had you asked
1:28:22that Teddy that t titanium teddy bear
1:28:26how old it thought you were and just
1:28:29really waited for the
1:28:30answer most people will get a single
1:28:33digit it still thinks you're very young
1:28:36and it still thinks it has to protect
1:28:38you the way it did when you were very
1:28:41young and just even updating it creates
1:28:44a huge amount of relief with these
1:28:47protectors so there's a lot that can be
1:28:50done just by working with protectors
1:28:52introducing them to self helping them
1:28:54see they don't have to keep doing this
1:28:56all the
1:28:57time some protectors it's very hard for
1:29:00them to totally drop their weapons until
1:29:03what they protect has been healed so
1:29:07that's where the therapist comes in
1:29:10so uh you know there are coaches doing
1:29:13this work for example they'll work with
1:29:16some executive and they'll do great and
1:29:20then they'll get to an
1:29:21exile and then they'll have the person
1:29:24see a ifs therapist for a couple
1:29:26sessions to heal the Exile and then come
1:29:29back because um you know coaches aren't
1:29:32trained as therapists and right so yeah
1:29:35there's still need for
1:29:38therapists but
1:29:40um yeah but you can do a a lot on your
1:29:44own I'm struck by how experiential it is
1:29:47as opposed to um just conceptual I mean
1:29:50obviously the concepts are important but
1:29:52I think uh in internal family systems
1:29:55was described for me previously kind of
1:29:58mapped out for me on paper I got a sense
1:30:00of it actually with some objects placed
1:30:02out and these um and it was helpful but
1:30:05it it um I think just having done a
1:30:09little bit of it today the only by
1:30:12actually feeling the sensations in the
1:30:14body associated with it does it actually
1:30:16really make sense to me I mean it made
1:30:18sense cognitively but that's so very
1:30:20different it's very removed yeah it's
1:30:22like me telling people you know get out
1:30:23and get line your eyes in the morning
1:30:24and set your circadian rhythm like you
1:30:26can know that you can know the
1:30:27underlying mechanisms the neurons the
1:30:29pathways the hormones Etc but at some
1:30:32level until you experience what that's
1:30:34like for two or three days in a row it's
1:30:37you might as well be reading about um I
1:30:40don't know um Titanium teddy bears you
1:30:43know yeah exactly and that's why I'm so
1:30:45grateful to you that you're willing to
1:30:47try it and because it's true as I
1:30:50describe it to people they don't really
1:30:51get it until they actually feel it
1:30:54experience it and it it is very
1:30:57different from many other therapies
1:30:58which are much more cognitively based
1:31:02because we're we're trying to bypass
1:31:04that and actually get to this raw stuff
1:31:07in here in order to be deliberately
1:31:09repetitive I wonder if it would be
1:31:11useful um to the listeners to would it
1:31:15be possible to just pose the questions
1:31:17sure um to them yeah as an exercise that
1:31:20they could do in real time totally yeah
1:31:23thank you so much um I think that would
1:31:24be tremendously valuable so I'm going to
1:31:27have to erase myself here uh for once
1:31:29I'm going to be quiet for a little while
1:31:30folks and you are the um the lucky
1:31:34patient uh that gets to talk to um Dr
1:31:39Schwarz here and he's going to pose a
1:31:41series of questions and we'll allow some
1:31:44moments of break or silence for you to
1:31:47be able to tap into the answers to these
1:31:49in real time that way you don't have to
1:31:52create a a parallel construction of what
1:31:54we did earlier yeah and and let me lead
1:31:57by saying um please don't do this if you
1:32:00have fear about doing it uh but if you
1:32:04if you're uh interested in some inner
1:32:09exploration then I'll I'll lead you
1:32:12through some of the steps
1:32:14so as you've been listening to our
1:32:17conversation I'm speaking to
1:32:19listeners uh you may be thinking about
1:32:22some of your own Parts particularly
1:32:24your own
1:32:26protectors and if you can't think of any
1:32:28most people have a kind of critic inside
1:32:31or part that makes them work too hard or
1:32:33a part that uh uh takes care of too many
1:32:39people so I'm going to invite you to
1:32:42pick a protective part to try to get to
1:32:45know for a few
1:32:46minutes
1:32:49and just
1:32:51notice that in her voice or that
1:32:55emotion that thought
1:32:57pattern that sensation just focus on it
1:33:02exclusively for a
1:33:04second and as you do
1:33:07that notice where it seems to be located
1:33:11in your body or around your
1:33:13body just take a second with that and
1:33:17some people don't find the location some
1:33:19people they still sense it but it's not
1:33:22clear where it seems be located but if
1:33:26you do find it inner around your
1:33:29body then just focus on it
1:33:41there and as you focus on it notice how
1:33:46you feel toward
1:33:48it and by that I
1:33:50mean do you dislike it and why get rid
1:33:54of
1:33:56it are you afraid of
1:33:59it do you resent how
1:34:03it
1:34:06dominates do you depend on
1:34:10it so you have a relationship with this
1:34:13part of
1:34:20you and if you
1:34:22feel any anything except a kind of
1:34:25openness or curiosity or willingness to
1:34:27get to know
1:34:29it then that's coming from other
1:34:32parts that have been trying to deal with
1:34:36it and we're just going to ask those
1:34:39other parts of you to relax back for
1:34:42just a few
1:34:44minutes so you can get to know it we're
1:34:47not going to have it take over
1:34:50more we're just going to get to know it
1:34:52better
1:34:55so see if they're willing to let you
1:34:57open your mind to
1:34:59it and if they're not then we're not
1:35:02going to pursue this and you can just
1:35:06get to know their fear about letting you
1:35:09get to know this target
1:35:15part but if you do get to that point of
1:35:17just being curious about
1:35:20it without an agenda
1:35:23then ask it what it wants you to know
1:35:26about
1:35:27itself just a kind of nice open-ended
1:35:31question and don't think of the answer
1:35:33just wait and see what comes from that
1:35:35place in your
1:35:38body and don't judge what comes just
1:35:40whatever comes we'll go with
1:35:45it what does it want you to know about
1:35:50itself and what's it afraid would happen
1:35:53if it didn't do this inside of
1:36:04you and if you got an answer to that
1:36:07question about the
1:36:09fear then it was telling you something
1:36:11about how it's been trying to protect
1:36:15you and if that's
1:36:18true then extend some appreciation to it
1:36:23for at least trying to keep you safe
1:36:25even if it backfires or doesn't
1:36:27work let it know you appreciate that
1:36:30it's trying to protect
1:36:33you and see how it reacts to your
1:36:43appreciation and then ask if you could
1:36:46go to what it
1:36:49protects and heal or change that
1:36:53so it didn't need to protect you so
1:36:56much what might it like to do instead
1:36:59inside of you if it was released from
1:37:01this
1:37:02role and I'll repeat
1:37:04that if you could go to what it
1:37:07protects and heal or change that so it
1:37:11was liberated from this protector
1:37:14role what might it like to do instead
1:37:16inside of you
1:37:29and then ask it this kind of odd
1:37:32question how old does this part think
1:37:34you
1:37:35are not how old is it but how old does
1:37:38it think you
1:37:40are and again don't think just wait and
1:37:43see what comes
1:37:59and if it got your age wrong then go
1:38:02ahead and update
1:38:03it and see how it reacts
1:38:25and the last question for this part is
1:38:28what does it need from you going
1:38:32forward what does it need from
1:38:36you and again just wait for the answer
1:38:55and when the time feels right thank your
1:38:57parts for whatever they let you do in
1:38:59this and then begin to shift your focus
1:39:02back outside and maybe take some deep
1:39:05breaths as you do
1:39:13that thank you for that that was awesome
1:39:16I also was able to get some I think good
1:39:19work done in the is that true yeah yeah
1:39:22totally different totally different
1:39:24location totally different set of
1:39:26Dynamics
1:39:30um even though uh what you just took us
1:39:33through is very
1:39:34experiential uh what if any value do you
1:39:38think there is to writing down sort of
1:39:40key takeaways okay yeah so um it's great
1:39:44to do the work you know session or you
1:39:47know this
1:39:49exercise but ideally it's the beginning
1:39:51of a new relationship with this part so
1:39:55and that takes work on your own so what
1:39:59I advise people is as you get that ball
1:40:01rolling in that good
1:40:03direction it'll reverse if you don't
1:40:06stay with it for a
1:40:07while so every day like you were saying
1:40:10you wake up rather than what am I going
1:40:13to do today or what problems do I have
1:40:15in my life how's that part of me doing
1:40:18that I've been starting to work with
1:40:20what what does it need for me today what
1:40:23does it want me to know is it still
1:40:25feeling
1:40:26better uh do I still have compassion for
1:40:29it so or appreciation for it so this
1:40:35like I said earlier this kind of becomes
1:40:36a life
1:40:38practice so I do that every morning
1:40:41every morning not well not not well
1:40:43you're very familiar with these parts
1:40:46and And to clarify for people um when Dr
1:40:50Schwarz is saying Parts he's saying
1:40:51these these parts these um personalities
1:40:54within us not necessarily the body part
1:40:57where it manifests but maybe that that
1:40:59provides a physical anchor to to look
1:41:01too exactly right so uh so yeah I'll
1:41:05I'll check
1:41:06in not with all my parts because I've
1:41:08met many many but the ones I've been
1:41:11working with just to see how they're
1:41:13doing and as I go through the
1:41:16day I'll notice am I in those seword
1:41:19qualities is my heart open is my mind
1:41:24curious do I have a big
1:41:27agenda anything any departures from that
1:41:30is a protector usually and I'll just
1:41:33have a little internal board meeting and
1:41:35say I get you feel like like in
1:41:38preparing to come and be on this podcast
1:41:41I had to work with the parts who were
1:41:42nervous and you know I have my father
1:41:46was a big scientist big uh Endocrinology
1:41:50researcher oh cool great field great
1:41:52field my brother is a big shot
1:41:55Endocrinology
1:41:57researcher uh so I have
1:41:59some some issues that way I hope I
1:42:03didn't reinforce the negative ones well
1:42:05I was that was my part's worries coming
1:42:07in and so I I worked on it and and said
1:42:11okay just but just I get it I get your
1:42:13scare I could feel them in my hands when
1:42:15I was taking a drink earlier interesting
1:42:18um but I just kept okay I get that I get
1:42:21your scare but just trust me just step
1:42:23back just
1:42:24relax and then I I feel this shift a
1:42:27literal shift MH and then I feel those
1:42:30c-words flooding and then we have a much
1:42:33different kind of conversation so it's
1:42:37it's a life practice in that sense love
1:42:40that thanks for sharing that I didn't
1:42:42detect any anxiety whatsoever um neither
1:42:46pre-recording nor um during this this uh
1:42:49this
1:42:50discussion if you don't mind could you
1:42:53describe or maybe even just list off
1:42:55some of the other uh labels of parts
1:42:59that people might encounter if they do
1:43:02this kind of work so you describe them
1:43:04as protectors that manage and then the
1:43:08Exiles which are the parts of us that
1:43:10the protectors and managers are
1:43:12protecting yeah correct okay those are
1:43:14two different things right yes so yeah
1:43:16the big distinction is between parts
1:43:20that by Dent of Simply being heard hurt
1:43:23or terrified or made to feel shamed and
1:43:26worthless uh and usually those are our
1:43:29most sensitive parts they're the young
1:43:32inner
1:43:33children they get stuck with those
1:43:36burdens of worthlessness Terror and
1:43:39emotional
1:43:40pain and then we don't want anything to
1:43:42do with them because they can overwhelm
1:43:44us and so we lock them away and
1:43:46everybody tells us to do that so those
1:43:48are the
1:43:49Exiles and when you have a lot of Exiles
1:43:53you have to these other parts are forced
1:43:55to become
1:43:56protectors so there are two classes of
1:43:59protectors one of the managers we've
1:44:01been talking about and the other are the
1:44:06firefighters so you know we mentioned a
1:44:10number of manager common roles but
1:44:13there's just lots and lots of
1:44:15them fir fighter common roles
1:44:20include you know addictions um
1:44:24uh excuse me
1:44:27dissociating the kind of
1:44:30judgmental rageful
1:44:33Parts
1:44:35uh you I could go on but anything yeah
1:44:39that is reactive
1:44:41impulsive and is designed to
1:44:45protect those vulnerable Parts but in a
1:44:50impulsive way as opposed to the managers
1:44:53who are all about control and
1:44:57pleasing these firefighters are all
1:45:00about if I don't get you away from these
1:45:02feelings right now you're going to die a
1:45:04lot of them believe
1:45:06that and some of them it's
1:45:10true so there's often a kind of
1:45:14hierarchy of firefighter
1:45:16activities the first one doesn't work
1:45:17you go to the next one if that doesn't
1:45:19work the top of the hierarchy for most
1:45:23people is
1:45:25suicide if things get painful
1:45:29enough there's this exit strategy it's
1:45:32actually very comforting to lots of
1:45:35people and here we come along and get
1:45:38really scared of these suicidal parts so
1:45:41this is again it's one of the Hallmarks
1:45:43of the difference FS if you were to say
1:45:46you've got a suicidal part say let's go
1:45:48get to know it I would have you find it
1:45:51and you know all steps and I would have
1:45:54you what are you afraid would happen if
1:45:55you didn't kill
1:45:57Andrew what do you think the answer to
1:45:59that is most of the time that it would
1:46:01just feel like too much to bear yeah
1:46:04like it just couldn't take it anymore
1:46:06exactly which of course is a crazy
1:46:07statement because it's not like my brain
1:46:09would explode some these parts believe
1:46:11it yeah they're not they're not grounded
1:46:14in logic so my well my response to that
1:46:17part is if we could unload the pain that
1:46:21you're so afraid would
1:46:24overwhelm would you have to kill him no
1:46:28and would you let us do
1:46:30that well fortunately I don't feel
1:46:33suicidal um but the answer would be yes
1:46:37okay so because we can prove to you that
1:46:39we can unload that pain and if we could
1:46:42do that what would you like to do
1:46:45instead of being the suicidal
1:46:49part I
1:46:51mean I have to imagine that if somebody
1:46:53forgive me for going into my head about
1:46:55this but if I have to imagine it's just
1:46:57hard for me to imagine being suicidal
1:46:59that's okay yeah but if I have to
1:47:00imagine that if somebody is feeling
1:47:02suicidal in order to protect the
1:47:04themselves against the like enormity of
1:47:06the the feelings they would otherwise
1:47:09feel and then they are offer the
1:47:12opportunity to work through to be
1:47:14released from those feelings I think the
1:47:16scary part would be um like the first
1:47:20it's like waiting into really cold water
1:47:22MH you know I I always feel that way
1:47:24about negative feelings once you get
1:47:25past your your kind of waist or so yes
1:47:28you get you get your your shoulders
1:47:29under that's a good an it's a heck of a
1:47:31lot easier it's a really nice analogy
1:47:34because you realize there's an upper
1:47:36limit to this stuff and you passed it a
1:47:38little while ago um yeah yeah so that
1:47:44suicidal part often transforms into part
1:47:48that wants to help you live actually
1:47:49they they're often in the role that's
1:47:51opposite of who they really really
1:47:53are so as you can hear this is a totally
1:47:56different approach to Suicide for
1:47:58example and we do the same with
1:48:00addictive
1:48:02firefighters find that part that makes
1:48:04you so high how do you feel to it I hate
1:48:06it I want to you know I want to be in
1:48:10recovery I want to lock it up just get
1:48:14all that to step out and just get
1:48:15curious about ask it what it's afraid
1:48:18would happen if it didn't get you high
1:48:20all the
1:48:21time same answer
1:48:24if we could heal all that pain or that
1:48:26shame and would you have to get a m all
1:48:29the time no but I don't think you can do
1:48:30that would you give us a chance to prove
1:48:32we can totally different approach to all
1:48:35these
1:48:37problems something comes to mind for a
1:48:40number of years not now fortunately I I
1:48:43mean I still work a lot but I worked
1:48:47like you know I I don't want to um well
1:48:50I'll I'll share the numbers but it's not
1:48:52a goal that no one should try and exceed
1:48:53this I mean there were times in graduate
1:48:55school where I no joke worked 80 85
1:48:58hours a week slept under my desk like I
1:49:00lived in my office as a junior Professor
1:49:02wow my students can attest that brush my
1:49:04teeth and not every night but I you know
1:49:05if I had deadlines it was just all in
1:49:08with mind body heart everything it's
1:49:10it's not healthy right right and at some
1:49:13point I had to take a look at it because
1:49:14it's not conducive to a lot of things uh
1:49:17it brings a lot you can get a lot done I
1:49:20won't lie you can get a lot done you can
1:49:21get a lot of uh degrees you can get a
1:49:24lot of knowledge and and you can
1:49:25accomplish a lot um but I decided to
1:49:29take a look at it you know like like
1:49:31what would happen if
1:49:32I I don't know published five awesome
1:49:36papers in a year instead of 10 or
1:49:37something like CRA you know I just
1:49:38started looking at and and it just it
1:49:40seems crazy now but I remember the
1:49:43genuine fear of of backing off that's
1:49:45right and I started to realize that I
1:49:48loved what I did um but that some of the
1:49:50work came from a yeah a desire to um
1:49:54compete out uh other other feelings it's
1:49:58a form of dissociation totally um and
1:50:00then what happened was I was able to
1:50:02adjust my hours really pick the projects
1:50:04that held the most meaning for me and
1:50:06then really Savor them and enjoy them
1:50:08and that's how I approach the podcast
1:50:10and other things I'm doing so it was a
1:50:11tremendously useful exploration but it
1:50:15was terrifying I didn't have to go to 12
1:50:18step for work addiction or anything I
1:50:20mean it wasn't at that level but um um
1:50:23but you're giving an example of exactly
1:50:25what we do we go to that workaholic Park
1:50:28what are you afraid would happen if you
1:50:29didn't do this to him yeah so what I
1:50:32came to it's interesting was the it was
1:50:34literally a fear of annihilation of
1:50:37Disappearing and then I thought well
1:50:39then you you parsed it a little bit
1:50:40further disappearing to who like it's
1:50:42not like there was an absence of of
1:50:44positive feedback so it wasn't actually
1:50:47to avoid disappearing from the outside
1:50:49world cuz I'll tell you when you're
1:50:50working 80 85 hours we you're already
1:50:53gone um you know uh you just don't
1:50:56realize it um it was actually some way
1:51:00of avoiding um this thing that I've now
1:51:04come to really love I learned it from my
1:51:06Bulldog um I used to have this
1:51:09assumption that slow is low like to slow
1:51:13down is depressive I mean now I love
1:51:16slowing down and I did learn that from
1:51:18my bulldog and a few people came into my
1:51:20life and they're dogs as well and I
1:51:22learned like um to really Savor slow and
1:51:27not just so that I can bounce back into
1:51:28work that too admittedly but but also um
1:51:33to just um and it came through I just
1:51:36would like your thoughts on this I
1:51:37realized right as I
1:51:39would go into or or come out of a
1:51:42meditation or what I call non-sleep deep
1:51:44rest this kind of yoga Nedra like deep
1:51:46relaxation thing that listeners of this
1:51:48podcast will be familiar with hearing
1:51:49about that there's this really
1:51:52terrifying moment where I realize
1:51:56someday assuming I'm awake when it
1:51:58happens or it's not an accident or I
1:52:01don't get involved in an accident um I'm
1:52:04going to take my last breath and it's
1:52:07absolutely terrifying yeah that concept
1:52:09and I realized that the fear of
1:52:10Disappearing is actually a fear of death
1:52:12and what I was really afraid of was
1:52:15death and I was using work so you know
1:52:18it's a long way from like working you
1:52:19know 60 hours or 40 hours a week instead
1:52:21or 30 what whatever people choose as
1:52:23opposed to 885 but what I realized what
1:52:25I was running from was the fear of my
1:52:27own mortality that's right and I didn't
1:52:29have to use any substances to realize
1:52:31this I just had to keep peeling back the
1:52:32layers of like what are you really
1:52:34afraid of and now I've come to the
1:52:36conclusion that most addiction having
1:52:38talked to a lot of addicts with process
1:52:40addictions and substance addictions Etc
1:52:43that deep down everyone addict or no is
1:52:46terrified of death it's just that some
1:52:48people are in touch with that Terror and
1:52:50have like worked through it yeah but so
1:52:53well you remember what what I was saying
1:52:55earlier when we talked to these addict
1:52:57Parts what are you afraid would happen
1:52:59if you didn't make them high he would
1:53:01die so that's a really common answer and
1:53:06basically what you just describe is you
1:53:07were doing ifs without knowing it asking
1:53:11those questions what are you really
1:53:13afraid of what are you really afraid of
1:53:15till you get to the key
1:53:18answer and then I don't know how you
1:53:20help that part that fear death
1:53:23but somehow you helped to relax more
1:53:25yeah I think um if I for better or worse
1:53:29uh if I see or experience something that
1:53:32scares me a lot um I have
1:53:37to uh explore the Contours of it that's
1:53:41been a dangerous part of my life and
1:53:43it's been a yeah oh yeah and it's been a
1:53:45helpful part of my life too you know the
1:53:48ability to suppress one's reflex to
1:53:51avoid fear is such a complicated thing
1:53:53because on the one hand it's necessary
1:53:55to navigate life on the other hand if
1:53:58people always say is it what would you
1:53:59tell your younger self if you could tell
1:54:01your younger self anything and it would
1:54:03I would have said hey dude listen you
1:54:07know if something makes you anxious get
1:54:09out of there because my my reflex has
1:54:11always been that if something gives me
1:54:13anxiety like okay here's a test of
1:54:15myself I see I need to overcome it okay
1:54:17you so that that's another part
1:54:19protector so in any case um some people
1:54:21are the opposite you know
1:54:22um yeah i' I've tended to touch to touch
1:54:25the hot stove three times yeah when it
1:54:27should have been one trial learning and
1:54:29it touched the it hurt excuse me the
1:54:31first time so but that's just me I mean
1:54:32everyone's got these things but what I'm
1:54:35discovering certainly through what
1:54:37you're telling us today but also the the
1:54:41exploration of these things is that so
1:54:43much of life is structured especially
1:54:46nowadays with the phone love the phone
1:54:49love social media but um so much of life
1:54:52is structured to fill all the space
1:54:54between
1:54:55activities and I
1:54:58do want your thoughts on have like what
1:55:01you see in terms of um things that are
1:55:05active impediments to doing good work of
1:55:07the sorts of work that you're describing
1:55:10today self-work I would never ask a
1:55:13guess to be disparaging of of the world
1:55:15just for its own sake but I think people
1:55:18are now starting to develop an awareness
1:55:20of how um certain Technologies and
1:55:23lifestyle habits that are unique to the
1:55:25last five or 10 years are really
1:55:29exacerbating our problems um as they
1:55:32relate to ourselves not just
1:55:33interpersonal Dynamics you seem to be
1:55:35thinking about the the the big picture A
1:55:37lot so I'm curious what your thoughts
1:55:39are yeah so you know all these little
1:55:42machines we have and all the ways we
1:55:43have of never spending any time by
1:55:47ourselves or alone or
1:55:49thinking uh just feed these protective
1:55:52Parts these
1:55:54distractors and leave in the dust more
1:55:57and more these exiled parts so a lot of
1:56:02people's fear of not having something to
1:56:05do is because when they don't or if
1:56:08they're not working in your case or then
1:56:12these exiled Parts start to come forward
1:56:15they they're not being distracted from
1:56:18in my case I mentioned my father I'm the
1:56:22oldest of six boys oh wow I was supposed
1:56:25to be a physician like him and a
1:56:28researcher and um I was spared that fate
1:56:31because I had a undiagnosed add and
1:56:34wasn't a good student and and three of
1:56:38my brothers were physician research
1:56:41types but I was the oldest so he was
1:56:44really hard on me terms of lazy and
1:56:49worthless and so
1:56:50on so I came out out of my family with a
1:56:53lot of
1:56:54worthlessness
1:56:55and
1:56:57uh and actually the model wouldn't exist
1:57:00if I didn't have that because I had this
1:57:02part that had to prove him wrong and
1:57:04drive me not to the extent you're
1:57:07talking about or sleeping in the office
1:57:10or anything but would drive me to find
1:57:14this this model and then take it in the
1:57:17face of a lot of
1:57:18attack uh to where it is
1:57:20now and and if I wasn't working on it if
1:57:24I wasn't getting the
1:57:25accolades then that worthlessness would
1:57:27crop up and then I'd have other
1:57:31firefighters to try and deal with
1:57:34that uh and you know I had not only the
1:57:39workaholic part but I had a part that
1:57:41could close my heart and make me not
1:57:43care what people think and because I was
1:57:46was attacked by traditional Psychiatry
1:57:49and so on for for developing internal
1:57:51family system
1:57:53yeah uh I was humiliated at Grand rounds
1:57:56a couple times and I was in a department
1:57:58of
1:57:58Psychiatry what is with the field of
1:58:00Psychiatry it's a good question
1:58:03so point being that I was dominated as I
1:58:07developed this by these
1:58:09protectors and it got me through all
1:58:12that but it didn't serve me as a leader
1:58:14of a
1:58:15community and I was lucky to have some
1:58:18students who would confront my parts and
1:58:21me just say
1:58:22you can't keep going on like this if
1:58:24you're going to be any use to us and I
1:58:27listened and I went and worked with that
1:58:30worthlessness and now I don't have it I
1:58:33don't have to work I don't you know it's
1:58:35just I feel free because I'm not so
1:58:37afraid of that bubbling up if I'm not
1:58:40distracted
1:58:42and and now we have more distractions
1:58:45than ever as we're
1:58:46saying right that the pain Point can
1:58:49potentially become the source of
1:58:51tremendous growth value to the world
1:58:53based on what you've developed
1:58:56um keep in mind I I learned about your
1:58:59work not just through Martha Beck
1:59:02although Martha as well but several um
1:59:05incredibly talented psychologists
1:59:08scholars in the in the field of research
1:59:10psychology um and um and actually a
1:59:13psychiatrist as well yeah there are some
1:59:16Psy maybe I'll just share the uh uh so a
1:59:19psychiatrist that I think the world of
1:59:22said to me uh I won't reveal who it is
1:59:24but they said do you know why uh there's
1:59:26so many lousy psychiatrists this isn't a
1:59:28joke actually um even though it sounds
1:59:31like the setup for a joke I said no why
1:59:33and they said well because you know if
1:59:36you're a cardiothoracic surgeon and like
1:59:3930% of your patients die you're
1:59:43considered a pretty terrible
1:59:44cardiothoracic surgeon if you're a
1:59:47psychiatrist unless your patients kill
1:59:49themselves on a frequent basis you can
1:59:52have a pretty quote unquote successful
1:59:54career M it's interesting and no one
1:59:57ever questions whether or not you're
2:00:00good at your job or not yeah because the
2:00:02field a has a dir of tools B the kind of
2:00:07assumption is that a lot of things don't
2:00:09get better and and on and on and they
2:00:12listed off all these reasons why the
2:00:13field of Psychiatry is so replete with u
2:00:16what they described as lousy
2:00:19psychiatrists so I do believe there are
2:00:22some excellent psychiatrists out there
2:00:24research and clinical and both um I
2:00:27don't know if that does anything uh it
2:00:28sounds like you worked through your
2:00:29relationship to psychiatrist on your own
2:00:31you don't need you don't need my
2:00:33statements I agree with you entirely
2:00:35yeah I and I'm you know I tried to stay
2:00:39in Psychiatry and just kept hitting the
2:00:41brick wall and so I went Grassroots for
2:00:4430 years and now it's starting to come
2:00:47around into Psychiatry so it feels good
2:00:50that way it's interesting how timing in
2:00:52a field is so important and not just an
2:00:55academic field but a clinical field and
2:00:57and the ethos um if anyone is interested
2:01:00in um understanding where we are in the
2:01:04Arc of medicine and culture I highly
2:01:07recommend reading uh Oliver Sax's book
2:01:11on the Move um he was an obviously
2:01:13neurologist and writer but he describes
2:01:16coming up through medicine and being in
2:01:18these various
2:01:20Fields um he worked on headache for a
2:01:22while it's pretty interesting um he
2:01:24wrote a book about migraine he he worked
2:01:26on uh with uh kids on the autism
2:01:30spectrum and bunch of different fields
2:01:32and in every single one of those fields
2:01:35was vehemently attacked MH by some
2:01:39individual for whatever reason usually a
2:01:41superior kicked out of universities
2:01:43moved to another one now he did have his
2:01:45own issues he was you know was the time
2:01:47he was a methamphetamine addict and
2:01:48things like that but he got over that
2:01:50and um became the great Oliver sax that
2:01:52that he was but you know he describes
2:01:55these fields as having a culture at the
2:01:57time of really trying to suppress new
2:01:59ideas and holding people down and then
2:02:02toward the end of his career several of
2:02:04the universities that essentially had
2:02:05fired him earlier hospitals and
2:02:07universities were trying to recruit him
2:02:09back with multiple appointments because
2:02:13now he was this famous guy who had
2:02:15written the movie or worked on the movie
2:02:16Awakenings and like you know and of it
2:02:19revealed the hypocrisy of of uh these
2:02:22big institutions and so it made me
2:02:23chuckle and also realize that for those
2:02:25of us who are doing public health
2:02:27education at at any level and certainly
2:02:29on the these more um non-traditional
2:02:33things uh approaches that uh the time is
2:02:36right for for sharing them and um well
2:02:39the good news is nobody lives forever so
2:02:41you know the the old guard dies or
2:02:43retires you know that's true and I'm not
2:02:46going to hold my breath waiting for that
2:02:47department of Psychiatry to invite me
2:02:49back well you
2:02:52I won't ask which one it was we can have
2:02:53an offline discussion about that they
2:02:55just might
2:02:57um couple of more questions
2:03:01um first of
2:03:03all going back to this thing about the
2:03:05larger context of
2:03:08culture um I love the optimism that's
2:03:11threaded through your view like that we
2:03:13could
2:03:14get God willing uh Democrats and
2:03:18Republicans to come to some sort of
2:03:20common uh ground around the most
2:03:23important issues MH um that we
2:03:27potentially could eradicate destructive
2:03:29racism racism of all kinds um but given
2:03:33the way you described it certainly its
2:03:36implementation in the world is the first
2:03:38thing that needs to be dealt with right
2:03:41um certainly if people can see those
2:03:43parts of
2:03:45themselves uh and work with them that we
2:03:47stand a chance to do that and given that
2:03:50trauma is
2:03:52near ubiquitous right um that people
2:03:56could start to address their own traumas
2:03:57so that they can induce fewer in other
2:04:00people I guess that's basically the the
2:04:03ultimate goal of humanity totally um
2:04:07and I like so many people in um lately
2:04:13not just by the way not just in the last
2:04:15year or so but like for the last 10
2:04:16years have just been developing the
2:04:19sense like goodness like it just seems
2:04:20like the number of problems is just
2:04:22seems to be expanding exponentially how
2:04:25do we get our our heads around this and
2:04:27you there's so much blame game going on
2:04:29of well it's because of this and it's
2:04:31because of that like that's not a
2:04:32solution at all so I love your um sense
2:04:36of optimism that it's
2:04:38possible and then my question
2:04:41is how do how do we how do we get that
2:04:44going to to be to be direct yeah well
2:04:47that's what I've been working on the
2:04:51last several years years and what I can
2:04:54say is for example I I spent 20 years
2:04:57like you know I I worked with bulimia
2:04:59like I said and I thought okay that's
2:05:02really works with that population you
2:05:05got um people who were bulimic to to
2:05:07essentially not be bulimic any longer
2:05:09yeah wow and
2:05:11then uh I I thought okay well let let's
2:05:15see if no bad parts is really true and
2:05:19so I went to the toughest populations I
2:05:21could fine and so for 20 years I worked
2:05:23with did and I worked with um did sorry
2:05:28um dissociative identity disorder like
2:05:29multiple personality disorder and I I
2:05:32worked with um what's called borderline
2:05:35personality clients and yeah very common
2:05:37right yeah before when you talked about
2:05:39bulimia bulimia is notoriously difficult
2:05:42to uh to treat let alone cure it's
2:05:44because people fight with the symptoms
2:05:46they try to get rid of the symptoms
2:05:48instead of listening to the part that's
2:05:50making them binge about what that's
2:05:52about moving from the one-on-one therapy
2:05:55model to a model where people can do
2:05:57this work on their own as well as in
2:06:00groups um but if I'm correct it in
2:06:04thinking this it seems like getting the
2:06:07work done with oneself is the first like
2:06:09real step yeah that there's no
2:06:11replacement for that right yeah yeah and
2:06:13you know there's in the activist world
2:06:16there's always been a kind
2:06:18of uh you're wasting wasting your time
2:06:21time
2:06:23but there's been a polarization between
2:06:26being in the
2:06:29activist mindset of really trying to
2:06:32change things in the outside world
2:06:34versus sitting around and and just
2:06:38focusing inside and not being an
2:06:40activist
2:06:41but I'm working with a lot of the
2:06:44people's you would recognize terms of
2:06:48activists and when they came to me they
2:06:50were doing their act AC ISM from the
2:06:52sort of righteous judgmental
2:06:55part and if we can get that one to step
2:06:58back and have them do their their
2:07:00activism from self they have a totally
2:07:03different impact people are willing to
2:07:06listen to them whereas when they're in
2:07:08that righteous Place nobody wants to
2:07:10listen to the shaming that does it needs
2:07:14to be both people need to do their
2:07:17work access self and then start to try
2:07:21to change change the outside world or
2:07:23not one before the other but at least
2:07:27simultaneously
2:07:29fantastic no really fantastic I um I
2:07:33don't think we've ever done a podcast
2:07:35like this where
2:07:38um the audience had a chance to do
2:07:41self-work in real time oh I'm I'm really
2:07:45appreciate you give me the opportunity
2:07:46yeah I don't know that I've ever heard a
2:07:48discussion um like it to be honest um
2:07:52which is just a testament to you and um
2:07:56your bravery uh it's very clear that
2:08:00um your decision not to go into
2:08:02Endocrinology was one that we all are
2:08:04grateful for it wasn't a decision well
2:08:07my my endocrinologist friends will um
2:08:10will have to just accept that you know
2:08:12we've got a lot of good endocrinologists
2:08:14we needed you Dr dick Schwarz
2:08:17to um to find yourself uh in this
2:08:22business of of um discovering and
2:08:26creating a truly novel approach to
2:08:29therapy and
2:08:30self-work that uh goes all the way up to
2:08:35the potential to change culture change
2:08:37the world so that's the goal yeah those
2:08:39those aren't just words that's uh those
2:08:41are um real
2:08:44aspirational
2:08:45possible uh things that could be
2:08:48accomplished if people do this work and
2:08:51in coming here today and sharing with us
2:08:53the structure of internal family systems
2:08:56and a demonstration of how it can work
2:09:01and offering people the opportunity to
2:09:03do it themselves in real time and giving
2:09:05us your perspective about the things
2:09:08that are um around it as well as in it
2:09:12uh with Incredible Clarity and um just a
2:09:16a real um beautiful sense of of care for
2:09:20for people that comes through
2:09:21um but also the I like the concreteness
2:09:24of it so very much very concrete right
2:09:26it's it's not abstract right and I
2:09:30really appreciate that and I'm certain
2:09:32that everyone else does as well so I I
2:09:35want to thank you for coming here today
2:09:37um for sharing this we will provide
2:09:39links to um places where people can
2:09:41learn more through books and courses and
2:09:43um other resources um that you've
2:09:46created and and also just for the work
2:09:49that you've done and for being you it's
2:09:50it's been a real pleasure and I'm um so
2:09:53very glad we did it me too oh my God I
2:09:56you know my little nervous Parts giving
2:09:59me a lot of trouble and but once we got
2:10:02going I just felt connected and I felt
2:10:04your appreciation and interest and so we
2:10:08could have this kind of self-to-self
2:10:11exchange which which I love I just I
2:10:14love spreading time and that energy yeah
2:10:17likewise and you know you're a great
2:10:19interviewer too so yeah thank you well
2:10:21this this whole thing is a a labor of
2:10:24love and a um a freef fall through uh
2:10:28just um curiosity yeah so yeah it's
2:10:32clear yeah I I hope to continue the
2:10:34conversation would love to wonderful
2:10:36thanks so much thank you so much thank
2:10:39you for joining me for today's
2:10:40discussion with Dr Richard Schwarz to
2:10:42learn more about his work and to find
2:10:44links to his many excellent books please
2:10:46see the show note captions if you're
2:10:48learning from and or enjoying this
2:10:49podcast please subscribe to our YouTube
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2:10:58and apple and on both Spotify and apple
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2:11:01review if you have questions for me or
2:11:03comments about the podcast or guests or
2:11:05topics you'd like me to consider for the
2:11:06hubman Lab podcast please put those in
2:11:08the comment section on YouTube I do read
2:11:11all the comments please also check out
2:11:13the sponsors mentioned at the beginning
2:11:14and throughout today's episode that's
2:11:16the best way to support this podcast for
2:11:18those of you that haven't heard I have a
2:11:20new book coming out it's it's my very
2:11:21first book it's entitled protocols an
2:11:24operating manual for the human body this
2:11:26is a book that I've been working on for
2:11:27more than 5 years and that's based on
2:11:29more than 30 years of research and
2:11:31experience and it covers protocols for
2:11:33everything from sleep to exercise to
2:11:36Stress Control protocols related to
2:11:39focus and motivation and of course I
2:11:41provide the scientific substantiation
2:11:43for the protocols that are included the
2:11:46book is now available by pre-sale at
2:11:47protocols book.com there you can find
2:11:50links to various vendors you can pick
2:11:52the one that you like best again the
2:11:54book is called protocols an operating
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2:12:28summaries as well as what we call
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2:12:32page PDFs that cover everything from how
2:12:34to optimize your sleep how to optimize
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2:12:55once again for joining me for today's
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2:12:59last but certainly not least thank you
2:13:01for your interest in science
2:13:06[Music]

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