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How This 21 Year Old Dropshipper Makes $20M/Year With 5 Ecom Brands | Saamir Mithwani | Ep.39 — Transcript

by Theo Clarke Podcast · 14,834 words · 2,054 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00A really good ecom brand is just a
0:02creative powerhouse. I'm a big believer
0:04that quantity beats quality any time of
0:06day. If we don't test 30 creatives per
0:08day, then we're dying. Something's going
0:09wrong. Samir Mithwani has been
0:11everywhere online this year. He is a Gen
0:13Z entrepreneur who has built
0:15multi-million dollar ecom brands before
0:17even turning 22. He's one of many
0:19proving how drop shipping lets anyone
0:22open a store for a dollar and take a
0:24real shot at life-changing money. In
0:26this episode, he broke down product
0:28hunting, testing, [music]
0:29data, and most importantly, mindset. And
0:32it was kind of wild hearing someone this
0:33age explain everything so [music]
0:35simply. If your offer is the only reason
0:38why people are buying, then that's not a
0:39good product timing. When we're doing a
0:41product test, because I know a lot of
0:42people are watching this, we're probably
0:43like in the testing phase. What you need
0:44to do is
0:46you could [music] legitimately start a
0:48store, build it up, like 2 years from
0:49now, legitimately have a figure exit.
0:51This is the future. Take it with a grain
0:52of salt. Try it out. Try out some of our
0:54methods. If it doesn't work, pivot.
0:56Everyone's different and everyone has
0:57their own way of getting to riches.
1:00>> Welcome back to another episode of the
1:01Theo Clark podcast, where I interview
1:03e-commerce entrepreneurs. Today's
1:04podcast is sponsored by Commer
1:06Fulfillment, your trusted fulfillment
1:07partner. And today, I have the pleasure
1:09of speaking with Samir Mithwani. Samir,
1:12how's it going, brother?
1:13>> Good, man. How you doing?
1:14>> Yeah, good. Thank you for coming. It's a
1:16pleasure to have you here on the pod. I
1:17know you landed in Dubai 2 days ago, so
1:19you jumped straight in, but how you
1:20finding everything so far?
1:21>> It's good, man. Dubai is the best place
1:23ever, bro. Like I would say if I didn't
1:24live in Miami, I' i'd be here. I'd
1:26definitely be here. Yeah,
1:27>> for sure. It's definitely a great
1:29environment and you know, you're
1:30connected with a lot of guys out here, a
1:32lot of great guys in ecom and other
1:34industries. So, it's just a fantastic
1:35place to meet like-minded people and uh
1:38I'm pleased that we got the opportunity
1:39to run the pod.
1:40>> Dude, likewise. Thank you for having me
1:41on, bro.
1:42>> Yeah. So, tell uh me maybe just a little
1:45bit about yourself, Sam. I know. You got
1:46a few different brands going on. Um
1:48there's a lot of few things in the
1:50pipeline. You've also got Brandify,
1:51which is your coaching program. Maybe
1:53just for myself and everyone watching,
1:54you could just give us a brief summary
1:56of like the different brands that you're
1:58working on and kind of where your main
1:59focus is.
2:00>> For sure, man. For sure. So, yeah, we
2:01have our portfolio of ecom brands. We
2:03have uh like five brands in there, but
2:04three of them are like the main revenue
2:06drivers, different niches, so like
2:08cosmetic, uh supplements, you know,
2:10perfumes, like we we kind of do it all.
2:13And they all started with drop shipping.
2:14So, like we kind of have that playbook
2:16that we've been doing for a while. You
2:17start with drop shipping, if it does
2:18well, you get US inventory, you build
2:20the brand, and you kind of scale it. And
2:21that's kind of our playbook, bro. It's
2:23really simple. And then yeah, branded
2:24five is a coaching program where we
2:25teach people how to do what we do. And
2:27then then we have some other new
2:29businesses we're starting like
2:30tellahalth and whatnot. But yeah, it's
2:32very similar playbook. It it all kind of
2:33comes down to like, okay, if you can
2:35sell a product online, like how much
2:37farther can you go? Can you build a
2:38brand out of it? Can you get recurring
2:39customers? Like what can you do, right?
2:41And that's kind of what we teach.
2:43>> Yeah. You know, it is simple, but it
2:46isn't to someone that's starting from
2:47scratch. But like you say, you have the
2:49playbook. And when you have that
2:50playbook and you know what all the
2:51moving pieces are and the variables and
2:53what are the biggest levers to pull, it
2:54does all just kind of come together. I
2:56mean I know you speak about it a lot
2:58like you just said like identifying a
3:00product, bringing it to market, branding
3:02it, uh getting inventory in the US. So
3:04like could you maybe just break down
3:06those steps to someone who uh wants to
3:08get into ecom but they don't know any
3:09difference to like
3:10>> the other side of drop shipping where
3:12people are purely just drop shipping or
3:14finding products from ad library or KO
3:16data cuz what you do um if you would
3:17agree is slightly different, right? Mhm.
3:19100%. I think it comes down to mindset,
3:21right? So like for example, when
3:22somebody tests a product and it's doing
3:24good, they're thinking, okay, how much
3:26can I how much money can I make out of
3:27this? How much can I scale it? Whereas
3:28like for me, if I see a product is doing
3:30well, it's like, okay, that's just
3:31validation that I can build something
3:32real out of this, you know? So I think
3:34that the start is very similar to like
3:36both mindsets of like, okay, you find
3:38products online either through Amazon,
3:40Tik Tok shop, you find stuff that has
3:42potential to sell and you you test it.
3:44you just, you know, you put it up, you
3:45see what the data looks like. You see if
3:47it's getting purchases, and then from
3:48there, that's at least for us, that's
3:50like that main switch is, okay, now
3:51let's let's put our own branding to it.
3:52Let's see what the unique angles are.
3:54Let's let's put that into the branding.
3:56Let's actually make something real
3:57versus somebody who's like, okay, how
3:59how much can I push this meta ad
4:00campaign to? You know what I mean? So, a
4:02lot of it is just mindset, like actually
4:04trying to build something. For sure. And
4:06when you do identify a product and bring
4:08it to market, you said about kind of
4:10testing different angles. I know you're
4:11quite big on AI and you've mentioned
4:13some different tools that you're using
4:14as well. I don't know if this is
4:16outdated content that I saw, but I think
4:18you said you're testing around about 30
4:19creatives a day. Is that for like one of
4:21the brands or all of them?
4:22>> It's all the brands. Yeah. Yeah. So,
4:23like we have a a baseline. If we don't
4:25test 30 creatives per day, then like
4:27we're dying. Like something's going
4:28wrong, right? And AI has been a huge
4:30help for that, bro. Like AI UGC, AI for
4:33making statics, AI's for like coming up
4:35with like the ICP and like market
4:36research has just been like monumentally
4:38important.
4:39>> Yeah, for sure. So, how are you
4:40leveraging some of them tools then? I
4:41mean, I know you mentioned four copy and
4:43four things like that. Are there any
4:44specific tools that you would recommend?
4:46>> Yeah, for sure, man. I think a good one
4:48is a and we're not affiliated with any
4:50of these tools, by the way. I don't have
4:51any affiliate links or anything. So, Arc
4:53Ads has been great for AI Creator. Like,
4:54we've actually I I honestly think we've
4:56brought in over at this point now like 8
4:58to10 million in revenue from Arc Ads
5:00videos. And that's like a majority of
5:02this year. Like, we pushed so many of
5:03them out. Arc ads has been great. Um,
5:06when it comes to like market research, a
5:08good one that we've been using is Gigab
5:09Brain. A lot of people don't know about
5:10Gigabrain, but I love the name. It's
5:13like a it basically scouts like Reddit
5:15threads on your on like your ICP. Like
5:17for example, if I'm selling like uh like
5:20a hair loss product, I go to like uh
5:22Gigabrain. I'm like, "Okay, tell me
5:24about like this issue and why people are
5:26buying it." And then you might find like
5:27a specific uh lingo that customers are
5:29using. You put that in the ad. But those
5:31two alone are really good. like you use
5:32Gigab brand for research and then you do
5:34uh uh arc ads for the actual creator.
5:38Scripting wise, we've honestly still
5:39kept it in house. Like I think when you
5:41use AI for scripting, it doesn't turn
5:43out too well. Turns out like a bot kind
5:45of. But just those two, those two alone
5:48now you have a whole creative team, you
5:50know what I mean? Like you just save so
5:51much time and money.
5:52>> I'll check out Gigab Brain cuz Reddit is
5:54just like a gold mine for ICP research.
5:56Like I love using that. Uh so I'll
5:58definitely check that out. Um, and when
6:00you're testing sort of 30 creatives a
6:01day, I think you've mentioned as well
6:03like these days it's not about um, so
6:05much what you're doing in the meta ad
6:06account. It's more about what the
6:07creative doing and how it performs. So
6:09when you're bringing these uh, tests to
6:11market,
6:12>> what is the approach there? Is it just
6:14to see what's working and then scale it
6:16or how do you scale it?
6:17>> Mhm. Yeah. So it comes down to
6:20what are the progressive results, right?
6:22So I'm big on this is a great question
6:24by the way. I'm big on progressively
6:26testing. That means that like if if I'm
6:28[snorts] testing a product, I'm doing
6:29two campaigns a day for like a week or
6:32two weeks, right? And a big reason for
6:33that is I'm a true believer that you
6:35don't win the customer, you win Meta.
6:37Like I I truly think that at the end of
6:39the day, if you launched an ad that was
6:41just like a static ad, it was let's say
6:43like a black background that says buy
6:44it, buy one get one free. And Meta likes
6:46that ad for some reason, they're going
6:48to push it out and you're going to get
6:49like a $5 CPA. Like that's up to Meta.
6:51So the good way to kind of win over Meta
6:53is show it that you're constantly
6:54trying. That's why instead of just
6:56pushing everything out at once, we
6:57progressively will put a uh two
6:59campaigns out a day. What that allows us
7:01to do as well is now we uh we can see
7:04data. We have data slowly coming in and
7:06then from the data if we see okay this
7:08creative is doing well. Let's make
7:09different iterations of this or try it
7:11in a different format. That's how you
7:13get like those quick wins and then
7:14eventually now you're scaling.
7:16>> Got it. So it's not a case of just uh
7:18increasing budgets.
7:19>> Never budgets like most people think.
7:22Okay. So it's it's more so iterating the
7:24existing creatives and I guess that's
7:25only got even easier with AI. So I guess
7:28if you pair those two things like a good
7:29solid uh meta scaling strategy and
7:32constant creative iteration leveraging
7:34AI you can move very quickly. I mean
7:36what are maybe some of the fastest uh
7:38growing stores you've seen like or even
7:39in your own experience ones that that
7:41you've maybe maybe been able to grow.
7:42Are there any that have come through in
7:44like a real short amount of time?
7:45>> Yeah, so for on my part we've had uh
7:47stores grow super fast. I mean, when we
7:49started our men's wellness brand about
7:51it's been like 2 years now since we've
7:54had that brand. Like, dude, the second
7:55month we're doing like 500K a month. And
7:57we haven't like we haven't gone under
7:59500K a month since the start of the
8:01business. So, like that was very quick.
8:03It was very quick scaling. And one of
8:04the top videos for that uh that brand
8:06was Arc Ads video, like Arcads Creator,
8:08which is really cool. Um, even off the
8:10perfume, like I've sold I've made
8:11millions off Pheromone perfume, which is
8:13very popular product in the ecom market.
8:15And I I I first started selling Fairone
8:18Perfume. It was back in like 2021. I had
8:22a store with my ex actually. I had a had
8:24a [laughter] drop shipping store with my
8:25ex. Don't recommend it to anybody that's
8:27thinking about doing the business with
8:29their partner. It doesn't work well. But
8:30uh yeah, I mean I've made millions off
8:32that product and it scales very fast. We
8:34actually have had like crazy student
8:35wins as well. I had a student um hit
8:38100K a day. His third month of doing
8:40ecom and like I'm like that. I was like,
8:43"Okay, are you doing is it legal?" like,
8:44wait, wait, wait. That's that's more
8:46than what we preach, right? That's
8:47that's crazy. Um, but yeah, I mean, at
8:49the end of the day, it's like if if Meta
8:51is giving you good results, you can just
8:53scale up. I think a lot of people don't
8:54realize that, you know, if you're
8:55constantly putting creatives into the ad
8:57account, you have a good offer with good
8:59break even CPAs, you can just keep
9:01scaling. Like, you know what I mean?
9:02Especially if you add some sort of like
9:03subscribe and save and stuff like that,
9:05now you're stacking recurring revenue.
9:07You can grow a really, really big
9:08business very fast.
9:10>> Yeah. And so, so why those particular
9:14brands that you currently own? Did did
9:16something in particular make you want to
9:17go into that niche, into that industry?
9:19Was it just market fit and you tested it
9:21and it was working or is there something
9:22about, you know, um supplements or
9:25perfumes that made you want to look into
9:27it further and start there?
9:28>> I like to look at products like it's
9:30just numbers to me, right? And the thing
9:32is like good products will have good
9:34data, but at the end of the day, the
9:35most important thing is timing, right?
9:37If somebody can't, the reason I'm open
9:38about like, oh, we we we sold the
9:40pheromone perfumes. I know some people
9:41watching this might be like, oh, let me
9:43go try and sell pheromone perfumes. You
9:44kind of missed the boat, buddy, right?
9:46Cuz the timing is very important. I
9:48think like good products do come and go,
9:49but it's the timing that you need to get
9:51down, right? So, when we started in
9:52Men's Wellness, we one of our SKs was
9:54Sheilleit initially, and we got into
9:56Sheilleit way before a lot of other
9:57people, right? And we actually did that
9:59from going to China, and my supplier
10:01showed me some of the products, one of
10:03them being Shilleit, and we started it.
10:04That's why I'm going to China in two
10:05days again so I can get the next shield
10:07legit. But um timing is huge, right? So
10:09I I think a lot of people don't realize
10:10that when they go to like Cal Data for
10:12example and they try and rip like the
10:13first product off the the top of the
10:15leaderboard and they think, "Okay, if
10:17it's working for these people, it should
10:18work for me." You miss the timing, bro.
10:20You know what I mean? If you can get the
10:22timing down, that's where real money is
10:24made.
10:25>> And when you're selling a particular
10:28product, um how do you know when to
10:32pivot or if you need to pivot?
10:33>> Mhm. That's a good question. So, if
10:35we've tested, let's say, like over 30
10:37creatives, 30 to 40 creatives, and we,
10:40you know, we've done what we can, like
10:43at the end of the day, it's very like
10:44eyeballing. I wish I had I used to have
10:46a more direct answer like, okay, after
10:48this much in spend, we have the 150 in
10:50the red rule that we used to preach as
10:51well where it's like when you're 150 in
10:53the red, then you can stop. But I I my
10:56thing is if a product is breaking even,
10:58I'm going to keep testing it
10:59progressively until it until it
11:01completely dies out and I'm like $150 to
11:02$200 in the red. But until that point,
11:05I'm going to keep testing creatives to
11:06make it work cuz I can't count the
11:07amount of times where something doesn't
11:09work initially, but then you keep going
11:11and then it starts to work and then it
11:12becomes a big brand.
11:13>> Yeah. And what I like most about is I'm
11:15the same. I'm happy if I start at break
11:18even, I'm more than happy like just I'm
11:20going to keep running it because I'm
11:21collecting more data and I'm going to
11:22find out what works. Mhm.
11:23>> The other thing as well is I think
11:26I in many ways I like the friction at
11:28the start especially cuz all I think is
11:30okay how many other people are going to
11:31not push through this and give up here.
11:33So I I kind of I kind of welcome the
11:36challenge normally when I'm when I'm
11:37bringing a new product to market if
11:38there's a bit of initial friction. Like
11:39to me sometimes I think that's a good
11:41sign like I'll break through it you
11:42know.
11:43>> Yeah 100%. I think that the thing with
11:45ecom, like if we're talking about like
11:46testing products, a lot of people don't
11:48realize, but some people just do get
11:50lucky. And I think like when people look
11:52at some of these case studies of people
11:53like testing a product, three rows on
11:55the first day, scale to the moon, they
11:56don't realize that like that's not like
11:58how it is for everybody, you know? Like
11:59I've gotten lucky sometimes and
12:00sometimes I haven't. There's been times
12:02before where like I've tested a product,
12:03it doesn't work. I go to some ecom
12:05event, I meet a guy and he's like, "Oh,
12:06I'm running this product." I'm like,
12:08"What the hell? I tested that [ __ ] It
12:09didn't work for me." Yeah. And he's
12:10doing like 2 million a month with it.
12:11And I'm like, "God damn it." That
12:13happens. You know, I think at the end of
12:14the day, if you're universally
12:16controlling, you can only control the
12:17input, right? So, if you're universally
12:19testing a lot of creatives, you you have
12:21a good offer, you have good break even
12:22CPA, like you have the basics down, then
12:24you're doing what you can, you know?
12:26>> Yeah. Are you would you say those are
12:28all the levers and the variables that
12:30you you should try and control
12:31initially? Because of course, like you
12:33say,
12:33>> there could be someone else that's doing
12:35the same thing, but
12:36>> they've been able to crack it. maybe
12:38because of timing, maybe because of
12:39other external variables, different
12:41market, different ads, different
12:43creatives. Um, but would you say it's
12:45those few that you need to kind of
12:46control initially to get something off
12:48the ground?
12:48>> I completely agree. So, if I had to
12:50break it down, the top of the
12:51leaderboard is going to be product and
12:52timing, right? That's obviously at the
12:53top. Under that, it would be creative
12:56for me. So, a lot of people are
12:57subjective to where they'll put offer
12:59above creative. Now, my thing is if your
13:01offer is the only reason why people are
13:03buying, then that's not a good product
13:05timing, right? Like I've seen people go
13:07into markets with these crazy offers
13:08like buy two get 30 free and like this
13:10crazy stuff and I'm like [clears throat]
13:12dude that you just you're just selling
13:13to a too warm of an audience to scale
13:15you know. So again product timing at the
13:17top under that we're looking at creative
13:19so like that's like mostly creative
13:21volume rather than quality. I I'm a big
13:23believer that quantity beats quality any
13:25time of day. So just quantity of
13:27creative and then under that obviously
13:28is going to be offer.
13:30>> Yeah. I guess if you're so focused on
13:31the offer as well, um someone else can
13:34just kind of out compete you on price,
13:36right?
13:36>> Yeah. Or or the offer that they're
13:38running. And
13:40>> how else can you prevent that? I know
13:41you're a big um advocate of branding and
13:44of course, like you said, taking custom
13:45stock into the US. Um is that the best
13:47way to sort of get yourself out of this
13:49pricing war and differentiate yourself
13:51from other drop shippers?
13:52>> Great question. The best way to beat
13:53this pricing war is this perception,
13:55right? like how you have to create like
13:57a a congruent perception around your
14:00product test and your brand to where
14:01people feel like this is the one I need.
14:04So this is why we mainly operate in
14:05supplements cuz it's way easier to do
14:07this in supplements. But let's say you
14:08are selling like a weight loss pill like
14:10some basic weight loss pill and in all
14:13your ads it has congruent like you've
14:15edited the branding on the creative
14:17right on the caption it's the branding.
14:18When they go to the website it isn't
14:19just like weight loss pill it's like ex
14:22weight loss pill. So it's a little bit
14:23of congruent branding. you edit the
14:25stock on there, you edit like a photo on
14:27the stock or like your branding on the
14:28stock. If you're congruently branding it
14:30properly and you created this
14:31perception, then it's it's going to
14:33work. And a big part of that as well is
14:35speaking to the right ICP. So, for
14:37example, when a lot of people sell a
14:38weight loss pill, they'll be like lose
14:40weight, you know, but
14:42>> a lot of people that take weight loss
14:43pills, they kind of just want to reduce
14:44their blood blood sugar levels or they
14:46might have other external things they're
14:47trying to solve. If you can speak to
14:49that issue to them and add your branding
14:51on top of it, that's how you win the
14:52sale. You know, attention e-commerce
14:54sellers. If high shipping costs, slow
14:56delivery times, and customer complaints
14:58are eating into your margins, then you
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15:47>> Yeah. No, I really like that. And uh I
15:49was hoping you might say something
15:50similar because I've always said well
15:52what I like to uh the approach I like to
15:54take is when building a brand to try and
15:55become like a micro authority within
15:57that niche like find find the
15:59opportunity leverage the ICP or multiple
16:02ICPs and then have consistency
16:03throughout the funnel like what you said
16:05from the ad uh to the landing page to
16:07the product itself and if you add
16:09branding you add even more perceived
16:11value right so then you can justify a
16:13higher price point um and I think that's
16:15how you at least in my opinion and like
16:17what you've separate yourself from
16:19people that are selling at a lower price
16:21because as you all know a lot of the
16:22time people will sell and you provide an
16:25example in your uh one of your videos I
16:27watched people will sell the same
16:29product that other people can buy on
16:30Amazon but if you brand it correctly and
16:32you know how to speak to your ICP people
16:34are willing to pay more for the brand
16:36and accept a longer shipping time
16:38because it's coming from China as
16:39opposed to locally um for the same
16:41product
16:41>> 100% 100% yeah I think if people like
16:43feel like they're spoken to they'll buy
16:45100 like that that's just like the the
16:46big thing Right. It is a double-edged
16:48sword though cuz I've seen people get
16:50into it where they're overdoing the
16:51research and they narrow down way too
16:53much and then when they narrow down way
16:55too much then they're they're not like
16:58they're not spreading wide enough. So I
16:59think at the end of the day when when
17:02we're doing a product test because a lot
17:03of people are watching this are probably
17:04like in the testing phase cuz that's
17:06when they consume the most content like
17:08how do I get out of the testing phase?
17:10>> I I think what you need to do is you you
17:12need to kind of have best of both
17:13worlds. So like you you do test like
17:15deeply like in terms of like okay I'm
17:16speaking to this person I'm going to hit
17:18this specific angle but you also go to
17:20you go a little bit broader so you try
17:21other stuff like statics that are more
17:23broad and stuff like that definitely is
17:25like the best balance in my opinion.
17:27>> Yeah definitely. Um you mentioned when
17:30you're doing your ICP research and I
17:32assume you use this like Gigab brain and
17:34similar to build out your customer
17:35profiles and then start deciding what
17:37angles to test.
17:38>> Um
17:39>> what would what does that process
17:41actually look like then? Like let's say
17:42you found a product. Let's say you've
17:43done your ICP research, you're building
17:44out your creatives. Would you then
17:46create dedicated landers for specific
17:48ICPs or like how would you kind of set
17:51up that structure?
17:52>> It's always a great question. It's
17:53always on a creative level first. So, we
17:54don't touch the landing pages or add
17:56listicles or any stuff like that until
17:58we've validated it on a creative level.
18:00So, let's say we're doing some research.
18:02Let's say we go to Amazon for like a uh
18:04a men's wellness gummy and we see that
18:05the biggest reason people are buying it
18:07is because of like bad libido. So, like
18:09libido is a big issue for the ICP. Then
18:11we'll try like libido based angles um
18:14that are like I'm big on cold versus
18:16warm. So we'll try libido based angles
18:18but we'll try some of them that are cold
18:19that are like a good example would be
18:21like okay if you can't uh this might get
18:24I don't want I want to get the podcast
18:25banned cuz it's libido but like if you
18:27can't if you can't [laughter] get hard
18:28in the bedroom this is this is what you
18:30need right that's more cold but then a
18:31warmer thing would be something along
18:33the lines of like if you've tried this
18:35this and this and you still can't try
18:37this. So we'll always try warm versus
18:39cold when we're doing angle testing. All
18:41right. That's the one thing no one talks
18:42about cuz that that to me is so
18:44important because like if you're selling
18:45to a warmer audience, you have to change
18:47all your lingo to to being like more
18:49like us versus them. That type of stuff
18:52versus if it's colder, you can go more
18:54top of funnel, more education based.
18:56>> Yeah. I think that's a really good uh
18:58way to put it. Cold versus warm. And
19:01I'll relate it back to I guess why I
19:03personally quite like Google is because
19:04that's where people are going when
19:05they're ready to buy something or you
19:08can target the exact search term that
19:09they're looking for. So if someone's
19:11looking for how to solve problem X, you
19:14can target that specific keyword and
19:15send send them to a dedicated lander
19:18listical advertorial to further educate
19:20them on the exact thing that they're
19:21looking for and then send them to the
19:22page. So
19:24>> I think it's the exact same as what
19:25you're saying in terms of testing cold
19:27versus warm. But with meta, you have
19:30less control over uh who's going to see
19:32the creative. Yeah.
19:33>> As opposed to Google. But I do the exact
19:35same thing but just on a different
19:37platform.
19:37>> Yeah. It's smart. You have to you have
19:38to speak to the customer, you know,
19:40that's the main thing.
19:41>> Amazing. [snorts]
19:42Okay. So, we talked quite a bit about
19:44like identifying products, how you've
19:45then tested products and brought them to
19:47market and where you're seeing some
19:49success at the moment with your brands.
19:51Um I guess once you're past like the
19:53testing phase, um how do you diversify
19:57um your brand to really turn it into
19:59something that's here to stay?
20:01>> Because you've got if you're using meta
20:03ads and you're testing different
20:04creatives, that's of course a great
20:05place to start. build that initial
20:06revenue, start building momentum, but
20:09>> aside from just branding and getting
20:11stock of the product, like how do you
20:14really secure it into something
20:15long-term and build brand equity? Yeah,
20:18I think it comes down to a couple
20:20things, right? So, a really good ecom
20:22brand is just a creative powerhouse,
20:24right? Like if you look at companies
20:26like Rise that are like billion-dollar
20:27companies, like the amount of content
20:28and creatives are putting out, like
20:30that's the whole business, right? So,
20:32>> creative is a big one. So yeah,
20:34definitely building out good creative
20:35systems. Your creators, although I love
20:37AI UGC, your creators are the bloodline
20:40of the business. So getting good getting
20:42good creators, putting them on retainer,
20:44doing partnership ads with them, having
20:46them post, like that kind of system of
20:48like creators putting out content,
20:49that's like your digital footprint for
20:51the brand. So that's the first like
20:53lowest hanging fruit you need to do.
20:55Then from there, you're already like
20:57like putting out progressive like
20:59creative launches. Your your media
21:00buying should be pretty like basic. Like
21:02that's not a big thing, but it comes
21:04down to like seasonal sales and
21:06consistent offer tests, right? So the
21:07first one is the creatives. You get
21:08that, you got creatives going, that's
21:10fine. Then you want to start like
21:11putting out a lot of seasonal sales. You
21:12want to start putting out different
21:13offer tests, trying different bundles,
21:15doing different stuff on like the
21:17landing page side of things, right? So
21:18once you have like a consistent workflow
21:20of that, that's like the second lowest
21:21hanging fruit. And then the third
21:23honestly is like how how do we just like
21:26always taking swings, right? Like in
21:27ecom, when I look at one of my brands,
21:30I'll put it like this. When I look at
21:31one of my brands, I know we're losing
21:32when we're not testing, right? So, if I
21:34don't see us testing like new offers,
21:36new creatives, new things, subscription
21:37funnels, this that, then I know shit's
21:39not going well. So, when you're always
21:41testing new things, example, being like
21:43subscription funnels and whatnot, that's
21:45how you you have to continuously keep
21:46like driving the boat, right? And that's
21:48really it. I mean, once you if you keep
21:50adding stuff on top of it, you'll end up
21:52looking back and being like, damn, I
21:53ended up just building like a really
21:54good business, like a really good brand.
21:56A lot of it just kind of happens in the
21:57moment.
21:59Where do you think most bands go wrong
22:00then? Do you think it's just comp um
22:02they get complacent? They they they feel
22:04like it's going well and instead of
22:06doubling down and continuing to test,
22:08they take their foot off the gas or what
22:10in your experience and what do you think
22:12it is?
22:12>> That's definitely a huge issue is
22:13complacency. I think a lot of people do
22:15get complacent. And then the bigger one
22:17is like I don't think people actually
22:18look into their data as much as they
22:20should be, right? Because a lot of
22:21people will get complacent and like
22:23stuff isn't working and they're like,
22:24"Okay, let me just throw out more
22:25creatives." Well, but if you look at
22:27your ad account, buddy, your CTR is not
22:29that bad. It's not your creative, it's
22:30probably your AOV. Maybe new competition
22:32came up and now, you know, they've
22:33undercut you on price. Now you have to
22:35find something else out. So, a lot of it
22:37does kind of come down to that. The good
22:39thing about ecom, it's it's a game of
22:40numbers, right? And all your numbers are
22:42right there in front of you. So, it's
22:44very easy for you to be able to just
22:46look at your data and be like, "Okay,
22:47what do I need to improve or what has
22:49changed over the last couple months that
22:51is not allowing me to scale?" Right? And
22:53nowadays with AI too, you plug in your
22:55numbers in AI, it will straight up just
22:56tell you, bro. Like I'm waiting for the
22:59day that somebody makes an AI to where
23:00you can just plug it into your ad
23:02account and it'll just tell you exactly
23:03what to do. But
23:04>> yeah,
23:05>> that would be very cool.
23:06>> I think it's probably coming at some
23:07point.
23:07>> Triple Well might throw it onto their
23:09platform or something.
23:10>> Yeah,
23:11>> they kind of tried it with MOI. I don't
23:13know if you've seen that, but it sucks,
23:15bro. Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah,
23:17>> there are a few different plugins and
23:19different like dedicated AI tools for
23:21Google. I don't know about Meta, but
23:23like you said, the triple well tried
23:24one. I think it will come. And I think
23:25that's the way that Meta and Google are
23:27kind of taking things anyway with like
23:28their
23:30>> AI um implementations, things that
23:32they're adding in at like campaign level
23:34and stuff like that. So, it probably
23:35will go that way. Um but then you always
23:37have to wonder if you're trusting a tool
23:38that's been created by the person that
23:40you're paying, i.e. meta, to run the
23:41ads, then
23:43>> I don't know. I guess that maybe it's
23:45just more of a conspiracy, but like you
23:47know it does it actually have your best
23:49interest or is it to squeeze more money
23:51out of you as an advertiser?
23:52>> Yeah, it's a good point because whenever
23:53I talk to like a meta rep that gives us
23:55uh suggestions, it's always [ __ ]
23:57bro. They're always it's like they're
23:59always to spend more and I'm like,
24:00"Yeah, of course you're going to say
24:01that." And I actually validated that
24:03theory because I I found out that most
24:05of these meta reps they hire or even Tik
24:07Tok's reps as well, they're they're ex
24:10sales reps. So they were sales reps for
24:12another company and they just told them,
24:13"Okay, you're going to sell our clients
24:14to spend more basically." So
24:16>> yeah, it's just a game we play.
24:18>> I think Google will do the same. You
24:20know, someone will be like, "Oh, I
24:21hopped on with a rep and they told me to
24:22do this, this, and that. Should I do
24:23it?" I'm like, "No, probably not." Like
24:25I would I wouldn't do any of those
24:26things, you know. Um, but yeah, I'm sure
24:29someone will create some kind of AI tool
24:31soon to make it much easier. But one
24:33thing I always say to align with what
24:34you're saying is like the truth can
24:35always be found in the data. And if you
24:37understand the different data points and
24:38where to leverage them, like you
24:40mentioned them like conversion rate,
24:41AOV, you know, cost per click, even just
24:43these three, like if you know what your
24:45average order value is and your
24:46conversion rate and your cost per click,
24:47you can kind of work backwards or
24:48determine what needs to be improved
24:50>> 100%.
24:51>> You know, so it's just like
24:52understanding the different data points,
24:54leveraging what needs to be leveraged
24:55and as you scale, one other thing might
24:57come out of alignment that didn't need
24:59fixing before, but at scale it uncovers
25:01uh inefficiency and more issues. So I
25:03think it is whether it's in the ad
25:06account or looking at the business it's
25:07just constant iteration isn't it of
25:09getting better and making things better.
25:11>> Um you did touch on like briefly the the
25:14word list of calls and advertorials. Do
25:16you test that much or do you prefer just
25:17sending straight to to product page?
25:19>> I don't test them that much to be
25:20honest. Like we we're not like too
25:23focused on that cuz I haven't seen it do
25:24a huge difference.
25:26um when when we have like higher AOV
25:28offers like bundles we're testing then
25:30we'll put up a listical but most of the
25:32time it's just straight to product page
25:33and whenever we want to make a change to
25:35the product page it's usually macro
25:36changes like offer or like we're trying
25:39like a new product for example but we'll
25:41never kind of do like these like micro
25:43bundling CRO hacks where like you change
25:45one or two things it just it never
25:47really makes a big difference.
25:48>> Yeah, for sure. And I think well
25:50actually saying that you probably get a
25:51ton of like site visitors and volume on
25:53on your stores anyway based on the
25:54numbers you're doing but for that kind
25:56of stuff you need huge amounts of volume
25:58to really see it right.
25:59>> Yeah 100%.
26:01>> Okay interesting. I know um some people
26:03are really big on advertorials some just
26:05say like what you just said we get the
26:07same result for going straight to the
26:09product page. Um but do you iterate the
26:11product page more so to speak to the
26:12ICP? I know you said you start at a
26:14creative level, but would you still
26:16modify the uh product page to be in
26:18alignment with what you're seeing in the
26:19ad or do you just have like one like a
26:21bit a bit I'm not too focused on product
26:22page and I think the main reason for
26:24that is like we've realized that a lot
26:26of the people that are going to buy
26:27they're going to buy before they even
26:28get to the product page. Like we've
26:29noticed like if you look at heat maps,
26:31if you really like nerd out on the data,
26:32you'll see that like the people that are
26:34buying like a lot of the customer
26:36journeys is like they'll see the ad,
26:37they'll go to the product page, they
26:38quickly will hop off and they'll see the
26:40ad again, see again, and eventually they
26:41go to the product page and within like a
26:43couple seconds they've bought. They they
26:45really don't spend that much time on,
26:46you know, looking through it, scrolling
26:48like we it's very rare for someone to do
26:50that. So our thing was like everything
26:52is done on the creative level and if we
26:53can just nail that down on the offer
26:55side of things is only only thing that
26:57matters on the product page then it's
26:58fine. That's the game we play.
26:59>> Yeah.
27:00>> I think it's worth noting bro that
27:01you're 21 and I just think it's amazing
27:03the amount of uh like where you're at
27:05with your brands and and your businesses
27:07just based on I I guess uh not to say
27:10how young you are. Not saying 21 is
27:12super young but like in the grand scheme
27:13of things still very young. So like you
27:15know congrats for what you have
27:16achieved. It's pretty cool. When did you
27:17actually first start ecom then? Uh, I
27:20really got into the game when I was like
27:2215, I'd say. Like 15, 16. I mean, I
27:24didn't really start making good money
27:26with ecom until like 17 and then we we
27:29started killing it at 18. Like 18 was
27:30like Yeah. And then from there, the rest
27:32is history.
27:33>> Yeah. There's a like what's um because
27:35you're you're living in Miami currently.
27:36Has that always been the case?
27:37>> Yeah. Yeah, I know. I've lived in Tampa.
27:38So, I grew up in Tampa, which is like
27:40close to Miami. That's where my family's
27:41from. We we grew up middle class, like
27:43you know, normal family out in Florida.
27:46And uh yeah, I mean Miami is 3 hours
27:48away from Tampa. That's why I'm in Miami
27:50so I can always go back to Tampa, see
27:51the family. It's it's pretty nice.
27:53>> Yeah. Yeah. And uh I think there's quite
27:55a lot um of ecom going on in Miami,
27:57right? Like I see I see quite a bit
27:58online, but I don't really know too many
28:00people from that space.
28:01>> Yeah. I mean it's it's got its own
28:02little bubble. It's got its own bubble.
28:04I think like there's there's definitely
28:05like you like ecom is split into two.
28:07You have people who've built like real
28:08brands that are like kind of they've
28:10built brands. They don't even touch drop
28:12shipping. They don't even know about
28:13drop shipping. They're so focused on
28:14like building like the best product. And
28:15you have the people who are, you know, a
28:17little bit like doing drop shipping and
28:18then they kind of they're into their ad
28:20account metrics and all that. And my
28:21thing is like I want to be in between
28:22both because that's where all the money
28:23is made.
28:24>> But yeah, Miami's got some really good
28:26ecom guys. They're just more so on that
28:28side.
28:29>> Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I guess I don't
28:31interact too much with that side of the
28:32world. I'm not huge on like Twitter and
28:34stuff and I I um I think I've seen a few
28:37YouTube videos from from guys in Miami
28:38putting out some content, but um yeah,
28:41it's interesting. I know Dubai is
28:43definitely becoming a bit of a a hot
28:44spot as well.
28:45>> Oh, Dubai's a lot of great guys out
28:47here. I think there's more people in
28:48Dubai than Miami, hands down.
28:49>> Yeah. Yeah, it definitely feels that
28:51way. It's not until you get everyone
28:52together in a room, you're like,
28:53actually, there's a lot of guys here
28:54doing really good things in in ecom, you
28:56know, and good people as well. So, yeah,
28:58I really enjoy that side of things.
29:00>> Um, you mentioned like obviously you
29:02want to be in the middle of drop
29:03shipping and and and branding, and I
29:04think it's kind of the best of both,
29:06right? because you have the
29:07>> low risk, high reward of never having to
29:09take on stock initially unless you
29:10decide to actually brand the products
29:12and and get the stock to the US. But
29:14like you say, I think that's that's
29:15where the money is, right? Like starting
29:16low cost, transitioning into branding,
29:19building equity, scaling, and then
29:20ultimately exiting. I mean, have you um
29:23I I don't know, but I'm sure you have.
29:24Have you exited brands in the past then?
29:26>> Yeah, we we we've done like a decent six
29:28figure exit. I mean, nothing too crazy.
29:29Um we're working on a big exit right
29:32now. Um, and exiting is it's it's a game
29:35of its own, you know, but we always
29:36preach build from day like build for
29:38exit from day one because after we did
29:40our first exit and it was it was a
29:41pretty decent amount. Uh, we learned
29:43that like okay, there's so many other
29:45things that we can do right when we
29:46start our next kind of like batch of
29:48brands, right? Um, like having better
29:51books, um, focusing more on like cuz a
29:54lot of people will just look at their
29:55triple oil and be like this is the
29:56ultimate source of like financial truth.
29:58It's not like your real margin comes
30:00when you look at like the bottom of your
30:01Google Sheets or bottom of your
30:03QuickBooks. So, focusing on increasing
30:04that number. Um, better team structure,
30:07better or charts, better Slack channels,
30:09like all this stuff that we didn't
30:10really do. We're doing it way better
30:12now. But yeah, I think having a exit is
30:14one of the best things that's ever
30:15happened to me because it just realized
30:17I've realized that there's so much more
30:18money to be made if I did things
30:20properly, if that makes sense.
30:22>> Yeah, 100%. like truly understanding
30:23your bottom line profits and stuff like
30:25that cuz that's all that someone's well
30:26not all they're going to look at but
30:27it's the first thing a potential
30:29purchase is going to look at right like
30:30what's the bottom line how much is this
30:32business actually making and then I
30:34guess like you say past that point the
30:35actual um structure of what they're
30:37buying and how organized it is and how
30:39dependent it is on certain people or not
30:41>> I guess yeah if you can dial in on all
30:43of those things um would you say that's
30:45what really contributes towards one
30:47purchase appeal from a prospective buyer
30:49but also the valuation
30:52>> I I I think it definitely does. Yeah. I
30:53think like if cuz here's the thing, like
30:55most of the evaluations you get, people
30:57end up like when they go through due
30:59diligence and whatnot, they always slash
31:00it down, right? So by having all these
31:02things in place, the buyer can't really
31:05slash you down that much, right? So like
31:07for example, like when they start due
31:08diligence, they see, okay, well his his
31:10books line up to what he said. Okay,
31:11well his Slack channels are everything's
31:13perfect. Okay, this is fine.
31:14Everything's like org chart,
31:15everything's done. They're like, oh
31:17[ __ ] okay, maybe we do have to pay full
31:18price for this, right? cuz like every
31:20single time because we we've done we've
31:22had LOIs for our our current portfolio
31:24now too and I'm I'm seeing this trend as
31:26well. Every single time you go through
31:27like the whole buying process, they
31:29always slash it down. They'll find as
31:31many things as they can to slash it
31:32down. So the less of that, the better.
31:35Like you said, it's a game in itself and
31:37you can really get like screwed over if
31:39you don't know how to deal with these
31:41things and like actually get, you know,
31:43uh not necessarily legal advice, but
31:45someone on your side who knows what
31:46they're doing. They can kind of help you
31:48with those negotiations and agreements
31:49because it's a lot of delaying and
31:51contracts and I've heard stories from
31:53other people who have exited um ecom
31:55stores or agencies and it's not often
31:57plain sailing like not past the point of
31:59the sale. a lot of the time there's
32:01still responsibilities and uh clauses on
32:04your payouts and all this kind of stuff.
32:05So it's like I guess even from uh the
32:08seller side you need to make sure that
32:10the person who's buying it is also going
32:12to actually put in the work and maintain
32:13the brand cuz there are instances where
32:15uh maybe you'll you know more than me
32:17but uh there might be a clause to say
32:19you have to you know continue to coach
32:21and consult us for the next 12 months
32:23and we'll pay you out X amount provided
32:25revenue stays above Y. But like that's
32:27also dependent on them the the buyer
32:29putting the work in. Right. So you're
32:31also taking somewhat of a risk there.
32:33>> 100% 100%. Yeah. all they they always
32:35tie up cash and like these stupid deals,
32:37bro. Like it's it's just how it goes.
32:39>> Yeah. I guess it's part of the game.
32:41Like you say, if if you want the exit,
32:42you got to got to play the game and go.
32:44>> You got you got to play the game. And
32:45it's always worth it, too, because like
32:46if you do a good exit, I mean, that's
32:47cash right in the bank. You know what I
32:48mean? Like if you like a lot of people
32:49don't realize, but like you can
32:51legitimately start a store, build it up,
32:52and like a year and a half, two years
32:54from now, legitimately have a eight
32:55figure exit. Yeah.
32:56>> And that's like, you know, have close to
32:58eight figures just in the bank account
32:59like sitting. And that's like that's the
33:01best, right? Like postexit lifestyle.
33:02Like that's what you want, you Yeah. So,
33:05aside from obviously uh building up cash
33:07flow in ecom, what else do you like to
33:09do? Like what do you like to spend your
33:11money on? I know you travel a bit. You
33:12sometimes do some pretty cool trips with
33:14some of the other guys. Um but like what
33:16do you what do you do outside of work or
33:17or is that a big part of what you do?
33:19Like a lot of work.
33:20>> Yeah. Work work's everything. Like
33:22life's kind of driven by work. I think
33:23like if I didn't have work, I would just
33:24be kind of aimlessly floating around.
33:26But yeah, work work's a big one. We
33:28spend a lot of money on like the trips
33:30are fun like going out. I'm I'm not big
33:31on like um designer too much or like the
33:34that type of stuff or like uh like I
33:36I've I've had my fair share of spending
33:37money like going out clubbing and doing
33:39all that, but it's not as fun as it used
33:41to be. Um spent a lot of money on
33:43charity. Charity is a big one. We spent
33:44like
33:45>> We could talk about that. You put a
33:46YouTube video up recently. Not
33:48>> that was the best video. Yeah, that
33:49video was amazing. But yeah. Yeah,
33:51charity's huge for us. Like it was it's
33:52it's everything. I mean, to me it was
33:55like if I if I don't put money into like
33:57helping other people, then there's no
33:59point of like making money in the first
34:00place cuz all all the stuff gets mundane
34:02and boring. Like buying the watches, the
34:04nice cars, the trips to some extent, it
34:06all gets pretty boring. And there's like
34:07certain constants. So like for me,
34:09giving to family is a constant. I always
34:11will constantly feel good. And then
34:12charity as well is it's a huge constant
34:14like you feel great when you do it.
34:17>> How do you um continue to keep pushing
34:19forward? Um and I guess you kind of just
34:22answered it there. If the material
34:24things are boring and they get boring,
34:25you know, quite quickly and it more so
34:27becomes about what you can provide to
34:28other people, is that the thing that
34:30keeps you pushing forward? Is it is it
34:32about what you can do for others or do
34:34you see it more like a almost like a
34:36game where it's like well I know I can
34:38do more so I'm going to do more. It's
34:40the second one 100%. It's kind of like
34:41how far can we get? You know what I
34:43mean? And I think I've had this this
34:44thing this year where it was like there
34:45was certain points where I'm like
34:47>> I don't even feel like working, bro.
34:48like I' I've done so much and like and
34:50and the thing is it's like people will
34:51tell you like, "Oh man, you're killing
34:52it." You know, you don't have to keep
34:54going and it's like
34:56>> you kind of get bored. Stuff gets
34:57boring, right? It gets like a boredom
34:59complex. And anyone watching this, like
35:01trust me, like if you're in in the shoes
35:03of somebody, you know, making millions,
35:04you wake up and like the penthouse or
35:06wherever you're at and sometimes you
35:08just think, okay, I kind of have like
35:09the basics the basic material like
35:11lifestyle that people want. You have to
35:13find some sort of external motivation or
35:14discipline, right? And for me it was
35:16really much like okay how far can we
35:18take this thing you know what I mean
35:19like I've already kind of got this first
35:21half down and like I'm trying to step
35:23into like new business worlds like for
35:25example tellah health and stuff like
35:26that to where like I'm such a small fish
35:29that is very motivating so we can you
35:31know keep pushing keep going even on the
35:32content side like I I think I've done
35:34really well in the ecom uh content world
35:36so it's like how do we step into
35:37something bigger more so like business
35:39development personal development and
35:40then from there maybe you can even get
35:42even bigger like dude eventually I want
35:43to maybe one day be in a movie you know
35:45what I I mean like I think if you keep
35:47like opening that circle of like what
35:49you can do that gives you the fire to
35:50keep going or else you just kind of get
35:52bored.
35:53>> Yeah. And at what point did the
35:56materialistic stuff get get boring for
35:58you
35:59>> pretty quickly? Cuz I never really liked
36:00it in the first place. Like I I I get
36:02people who love cars. Like I've had
36:03mentors before that they love cars and
36:05they have massive collections and like
36:07they still love like that. That gives
36:09them joy and I get that. Like that's
36:11that's you. But for me, I've never
36:12really had a knack for like cars are
36:14cool, but like it doesn't really change
36:16me that much. Watches are cool, but like
36:18it it doesn't really change me that
36:19much. Designer, like I think designer is
36:21a waste, but it doesn't really change me
36:23that much. So, I'm like off the bat it
36:26wasn't that good. Like really like that
36:27first like nice thing you get and after
36:29that it's just diminishing returns.
36:31>> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. um where would you
36:34um if it's okay to ask like like
36:37revenue-wise where are your businesses
36:39kind of at at the moment and what do you
36:41think are you like what what will you be
36:43working towards for for Black Friday or
36:44the end of 2025?
36:46>> It's a good question. Yeah. And of
36:47course uh good to answer it. Uh this
36:49year we've been around 20 million. So
36:50we're coasting around like 20 million a
36:52year between everything. Um Black Friday
36:55honestly bro even last year we made more
36:58money on Labor Day sale than we did
37:00Black Friday. I usually make more money
37:02off these non-traditional seasonal sales
37:04than I do on Black Friday because the
37:05meta costs always go through the damn
37:06roof. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, I
37:08mean Black Friday this month like like
37:10okay like Q4 last year like around like
37:13that. I know December we did like I
37:15think like 3 million in revenue or
37:17something. So, we'll probably do around
37:18the same this year. This year we do have
37:20higher margins though cuz we have like
37:21the subscription revenue coming in. So,
37:23that's it's helped us a lot. But, yeah,
37:25I would say probably around the same
37:26like 2 3 million for for like that that
37:29month. And then, dude, Black Friday
37:30starts like
37:32>> earlier every year.
37:33>> Yeah. I have this theory that eventually
37:35Black Friday is going to start January
37:371st, bro. Some people even run uh like
37:40Black Friday in March. Like they'll just
37:41say like early Black Friday, super early
37:43Black Friday. It's
37:44>> crazy, bro.
37:44>> It's kind of lost its like, you know,
37:46pizzazz. But yeah, I mean, the seasonal
37:48sales are great, but if anybody watching
37:50this, if you have an ecom store, uh
37:52unconventional seasonal sales will
37:54always do better. So, a good example one
37:56of my friends gave me who does private
37:57equity in ecom is says told me that he
38:00has like there was this one brand in the
38:02portfolio that was selling like dog
38:05chains like it was selling and the ICP
38:06was mostly like postmilitary veterans
38:08and whatnot and their best sale was in
38:10Black Friday. It isn't any of these
38:12sales. It's it's a D-Day remembrance
38:14sale. So D-Day was like a famous uh
38:16battle that happened in the US and it's
38:18like a D-Day remembrance sale. two weeks
38:20like half off everything and that sale
38:22is that those two weeks are the highest
38:24revenue two weeks they have for the
38:26whole entire year. So stuff like that,
38:28if you can find it for your brand, like
38:29if you're selling a skinare product like
38:31uh eczema awareness month, stuff like
38:33that, dude, it prints, bro. It does so
38:35well.
38:37>> I like that. Uh and thank you for
38:38sharing. I I always try, not always like
38:42to the point in which I'm um
38:44deliberately trying to do it, but I
38:45always think are there ways in which you
38:46can go against the grain. Do something a
38:48bit different that other people aren't
38:49doing. And I don't mean always trying to
38:51do different for the sake of doing
38:52different, but like where is there
38:54opportunity that other people are just
38:55not sleeping on it? cuz you know how
38:57much people are just like sheep now you
38:58know like everyone's doing this so I'm
39:00going to do this everyone's doing that
39:01so I'm going to so it's just like
39:03>> not to try and be like an inventor of I
39:05guess what I'm trying to say is I always
39:07try to think a little bit outside the
39:08box like where is their opportunity
39:10where other people are just sleeping on
39:11it and I I guess that's a perfect
39:12example. Do any other things come to
39:14mind aside from specific sales? Are
39:16there a few things where you're like
39:18this is a hot take and like no one's
39:19even talking about it?
39:20>> No. Yeah, there's there's there's a
39:22couple. Right. So in ecom definitely
39:24sales are at the top. Another one I
39:26would say hot take that no one no one is
39:29talking about
39:31[snorts] like twist on like on
39:33traditional ecom I would definitely say
39:35oh okay this is like where I see the
39:37space trending towards very very like
39:40deep dive creative research and whatnot
39:41and I'm still big on quantity over
39:43quality I'll always be on big on
39:44quantity over quality so like for
39:46example when we talk to a lot of these
39:47like students and people they're like oh
39:49man why did the creative not work I
39:50spent like 5 hours on the ICP research
39:52and I built this whole document and I
39:53reverse engineered with AI they did all
39:55this work. I'm like, dude, like it that
39:57doesn't like push a needle that much.
39:58Like your your quantity again is is
40:00everything. Like I said earlier, you're
40:02winning Facebook. You're not winning the
40:03customer. And I truly believe that. Like
40:04Meta is going to pick who they want to
40:06win. And if you can push out quantity
40:09and good content, like content that
40:10people would not scroll past if it was
40:12not an ad, that's where Meta is going to
40:15favor you and like kind of give you that
40:16win. So, I'm big on that. And a lot of
40:18people disagree. They're like, "No, you
40:19have to do all this re research to win
40:21over the customer." But it's like if
40:23Meta wanted me to win, I would be
40:25winning anyway, you know?
40:26>> Yeah. I often say something similar. Um,
40:31best not to make assumptions about
40:32what's going to work. Just let the data
40:34do the talking. Cuz I I mean, I normally
40:36speak more so specific about Google.
40:37Like, but in short, the market's going
40:39to show you what the market wants. If
40:41you want to launch a profitable
40:42e-commerce business and start generating
40:44real sales online, but you're stuck
40:46trying to find winning products, set up
40:48your ads, or even generate your first
40:50few sales, I'm hosting a free live
40:52training that shows you exactly how to
40:53do it. You don't have to commit to
40:55anything. Just show up live, take notes,
40:58and walk away with a proven blueprint
41:00that you can use immediately. I will
41:02show you the exact system that I use to
41:03help complete beginners with no prior
41:05experience go from zero to 10K per month
41:07with Google Ads drop shipping, often in
41:1090 days or less. Like I mentioned
41:12earlier, it's 100% free, but spots for
41:14the live training are limited, okay?
41:16Once they're gone, they're gone. So,
41:18click the link in the video description,
41:19save your seat now, and let's get you
41:20one step closer to your first 10K month.
41:23You can do as much ICP research as you
41:25think and build out an ad that you're
41:26like, "This one is going to be a
41:27banger." And then it's the one that you
41:28don't even have that much confidence in
41:30that ends up taking off. It's just like,
41:32you know, not always, but like a lot of
41:33the time, I think the best thing to do
41:35is just not make any assumptions and
41:37assume you know what the market wants.
41:39Do the research, understand your ICP,
41:41but then you need to leave it to the
41:42creatives cuz you'll soon find out
41:44what's working you're not.
41:45>> 100%. I mean, like when you make
41:46datadriven decisions, you get
41:48groundbreaking results. And that's like
41:49the basis of like ecom scaling. Like, as
41:52long as you can read data and you can
41:54apply it, like you're going to do well.
41:56You're going to do really well. And I
41:57think a lot of people overlook that.
41:58Like that's the first thing that we
41:59teach people is like how do you read the
42:01data? What does the data say? And how
42:02can you apply it? Right? How do you not
42:04get like too caught up in the data?
42:06Because a lot of people get too caught
42:07up where they're like my CPM increased
42:09by 30% this week. I'm going to go like
42:10everything's going to burn down. Like
42:12okay, no, it's fine. You know, stuff
42:15like that happens. Just keep doing, you
42:16know, creatives, keep testing offers,
42:18and you should be fine.
42:19>> Yeah, definitely. And I think if that's
42:21one thing I've one key thing I've taken
42:23for this from this conversation, it's um
42:26quantity and of course with that
42:27iteration and just like always
42:29understanding the data and your numbers
42:30and what the next steps are. Um and most
42:33certainly don't become complacent, you
42:34know?
42:35>> Yeah. I mean like I mean ecom like again
42:37like it's just like like at least what
42:38we see is a creative game, you know what
42:39I mean? A lot of times it's creative cuz
42:41you're putting out ads and you're
42:43getting results and then from there you
42:44make better ads and that's just really
42:45it. eventually sometimes you have to
42:47switch the funnel, tweak up stuff so the
42:49scale doesn't go down, but that's
42:51genuinely how it looks like. And like
42:52obviously some brands are doing it at a
42:53higher scale, some brands aren't. Um,
42:55but as long as you follow that as your
42:57baseline when building the business, it
42:58gives you the ability to do other stuff,
43:00right? So like for us right now, this
43:02year it's been big on subscription. So
43:04testing all these different subscription
43:05styles like the primal queen style
43:06that's like really good. uh the rise
43:09model style where they do that like a
43:10normal sub and save testing like
43:12funnylish kind of styles as well like
43:14more like OG neutral stuff. Um that was
43:17like a big test that we did this this
43:18year but that didn't take away from the
43:21fact that we were still pushing out
43:22creatives. We we were still pushing out
43:24like unique offers, seasonal sales, like
43:27that baseline stuff needs to stay there
43:29in order for the business to stay
43:30consistent.
43:31>> For sure. I think um it's clear that you
43:34have systems in place and well at least
43:36from the way you talk it seems like
43:38there's quite a lot of structure in your
43:39businesses which I would imagine you
43:41need to be if you're going to do you
43:42know 20 mil a year collectively.
43:44>> I think for a lot of people that's also
43:46quite a difficult thing to do is to
43:48systemize things is to bring in team
43:50members is to know how and what to pay
43:53people and where to where to get certain
43:55talent from.
43:57>> Like any advice on that on building
43:59structures on building teams? Are there
44:01any things that you've really been able
44:02to dial in that have helped you with
44:04that? Cuz I think where most people get
44:06stuck, at least from from what I see,
44:09>> start as like a you know, found a le
44:10brand. They don't have much cash flow.
44:12They start getting like a a VA, but then
44:15and then maybe someone to do some some
44:16creatives, but a lot of the time it just
44:18seems to like stop there.
44:19>> And I think that's why a lot of people
44:21get stuck at that sort like 250, 300K a
44:23month is they just
44:25>> haven't built the team and and really
44:26built the leverage. they're still
44:28working many many hours a day, which I'm
44:30sure you do as well, but like not
44:31necessarily on the right things, you
44:33know, because it's kind of like they're
44:34doing too many things that are
44:36ultimately preventing the the brand from
44:37growing.
44:38>> Like any advice on that on like how to
44:40structure, how to build teams?
44:42>> Yeah, I mean teams are huge, man. Like I
44:43can talk about teams all day cuz it's
44:45like the main thing that I focus on now.
44:47I definitely think just to break it down
44:48there's a couple like rules of thumbs,
44:50right? Um when it comes like tedious
44:52work, like VA level work, you got to
44:54delegate that out as quick as possible.
44:55Like it's VA VA vas are so accessible
44:57nowadays. They're so cheap. You can
44:59easily get them from Upwork or Fiverr or
45:02uh you can even post on like X and like
45:03VAS will come to you. So VAS are huge,
45:05right? So that's going to be like
45:06customer service is like easy. That's
45:08the first one. Lowest hanging fruit. Get
45:10customer service reps, get a customer
45:12service manager and that's it. That that
45:13whole part is done. And that can be run
45:14off people from the Philippines. Like
45:16you don't have to worry about that. It's
45:18the marketing side of things where it
45:19gets a little bit tricky, right? So like
45:21marketing, you you need editors. Editors
45:22are huge and you can easily find them on
45:24X. So any creative role that we hire, we
45:27leverage X a lot. Like we, you know, we
45:29tweet on X. We have like uh accounts on
45:32X that are just for marketing roles.
45:33We'll tweet like looking for editor for
45:35# haircare brand #editor. Let me know if
45:37you're interested. We'll always get lead
45:39flow from there. So that's been great.
45:41Um
45:43if we're looking at our overall
45:44structure of it, like it's honestly not
45:46as hard as people make it seem. Like at
45:48the end of the day, you need your CS and
45:50backend manage, which is like again like
45:52the CS team. You need editors. you can
45:54handle the creative strategist up until
45:55like 12 million a year. I really think
45:57that like I know guys that are doing
45:58million a month and they're still the
46:00ones coming up with the ads, but you
46:01know, they're the best at research and
46:03they know the brand really well. And
46:05that alone is more than enough, bro.
46:07Your back end is good. You have some
46:08editors and then you have you're the one
46:10handling the uh the creative strategy.
46:12That's more than enough, bro. That max
46:14will probably be like a five to six
46:15person team including yourself and now
46:17you're doing, you know, a million a
46:18year. So, a million a month, sorry. So,
46:20yeah, I think that's the best way of
46:21looking about it. Now, I've had the
46:23issue and a lot of people as well where
46:25they overhire initially. That was like a
46:27big issue for me starting out because I
46:29was like, I'm the master delegator. Like
46:31even my uh my my my lock screen, it says
46:33less work, more profit. So, I'm big on
46:35like overly delegating as much as
46:37possible. And when I started ecom, like
46:41I I remember I would hire like creative
46:42strategists like on like so many
46:44different creative strategists. I would
46:45hire so many editors. I would hire like
46:47head of CRO, fractional CFOs. And I'm
46:51like, what am I doing, man? Cuz like
46:52then you have this whole team and
46:53everyone moves so slow. The more people
46:55you have, the slower you move. So, we
46:57kind of slashed a lot of people down. We
46:59focus on the roles we really need. And I
47:01mean, yeah, that's really it.
47:03>> Yeah, I like that. Less work, more
47:04profit. Super clean, minim minimalistic.
47:07And uh I think it in many ways it makes
47:10sense. And I think that's where a lot of
47:11uh founders or you know business owners
47:13go wrong is and [snorts] I've done it
47:15myself fall into the trap of trying to
47:17do everything and then essentially being
47:19the bottleneck to scale because you
47:21can't physically get stuff done quick
47:23enough. And that's when a competitor
47:25comes in and just blows straight past
47:27you, you know. [snorts]
47:28>> So I think it's just knowing how and
47:29when to delegate. And like you say, I
47:31guess it's um
47:33>> it's simpler than what most people will
47:35make out. But I think I just still think
47:37for a lot of people it's just a
47:39>> a diff like a difficult thing to do to
47:41let go.
47:42>> Yeah. I I think that that it definitely
47:44is is difficult. But the thing with ecom
47:47especially is like there's only a few
47:48things that really drive your sales,
47:50right? Like for example, if you have a
47:51winning creative that hits, now you're
47:52doing more sales. If you have um a
47:54winning offer that hits, now you do more
47:56sales. Like offer and creatives are
47:57really the main driver. So you as a
48:00founder if you can focus just on those
48:02two things and everything else is being
48:04done by somebody else that's way that's
48:06that's worth it that's a good deal you
48:07know so like the the the found I know a
48:10lot of founders that they already know
48:11like get the editors get the CS
48:12strategist or sorry get the editors get
48:14like the the back end like the customer
48:16service but if founders start using like
48:18creative strategist they start trying to
48:19go for like head of growth they start
48:21like these more unique hires they'll
48:23find themselves like eventually making
48:25more money you know what I mean if you
48:27get too unfocused from like again your
48:29offer and your creatives, then you end
48:31up like being stagnant, you know?
48:33>> Yeah, it makes total sense. Makes total
48:35sense. I think it's um it's a skill in
48:37itself, but something that has to be
48:39done if you really want to grow to the
48:40next level. You know, there's only so
48:42many hours in the day and uh you can
48:44only diversify yourself across so many
48:46different roles and do them to a high
48:47level.
48:48>> So, I guess it's just knowing when to
48:50>> find that hire and also like you said,
48:52not getting too carried away with it
48:53where you overhire as well. So just hire
48:55um one one thing I like to do and maybe
48:57you do something similar. I don't have
48:59like an exact road map but I always try
49:01to make time to reflect like what what
49:03are the biggest levers right now that I
49:05can pull and which things should I
49:07definitely be focusing on and then what
49:09are the other things that are actually
49:10taking up a bit of time that I can find
49:12someone else to do. You know
49:14>> that's my main job. Yeah. I mean
49:15honestly like that's like majority of my
49:17work is like going through data like
49:19like sitting down and be like okay
49:20reflecting on like what can we do going
49:22through the data and like I'll always
49:23come up with these ideas throughout the
49:24day but then I'll write down an idea and
49:27I'll I'll kind of validate it with the
49:28data and see like okay does that
49:29actually line up like if I like for
49:31example I have this really good offer
49:32that I want us to test but then I look
49:34at the data for this brand and I'm like
49:35oh well our our CVR and AOV is like
49:38industry high but like our CTR is is ass
49:42okay I need to focus on creative not
49:43offer so yeah I Data is huge. I think
49:45that's the biggest thing that we've been
49:46talking about today is like data because
49:48it is literally everything. Like if you
49:49can again simply read the data and apply
49:51it properly, you will beat everybody.
49:54Cuz it's so it's so ironic that all
49:56these people, a majority of people doing
49:57ecom, they don't know how to read data.
49:59They don't understand it. They they just
50:01kind of throw up creatives and it works.
50:03Sometimes it doesn't and that's really
50:04it. And that's only going to get you so
50:06far.
50:06>> Yeah. Fortunately, uh I spent four years
50:09working as an engineer. So numbers
50:11numbers I know. One of the things I know
50:13which is why I got into ecom so late cuz
50:15I spent too many years doing other
50:17things. Um, but I completely agree like
50:19like we've said data and and the truth
50:21is can always be found in the numbers,
50:22you know, when you're making time to to
50:25do this as an exercise like you say when
50:26you're analyzing data when you're making
50:28decisions.
50:29>> Um, aside from of course like the meta
50:31ad account and I and I assume your
50:32profit and loss, are there any other
50:34data points that you're looking at and
50:35how do you uh view the different sources
50:37of data to make decisions?
50:39>> That's really good. So in terms of like
50:41the the first thing I look at is like
50:42the performance of the business. So
50:44that's like the meta ad account, the
50:45triple whale bottom line and all that.
50:47And then I quickly go into looking at
50:48like what is the team doing, right?
50:50That's a big one cuz again like I'm not
50:51the one actually making the creatives or
50:52launching anything. I'm kind of at the
50:54top of the food chain there. So we have
50:56like we do a lot of stuff on notion. So
50:58I go to notion. I see okay how many
51:00campaigns did we launch last week? What
51:02campaigns did we launch? What ones did
51:04well? Which ones didn't? What offers did
51:06we test? Like I'm looking at the output.
51:07you have to look at the output or tech
51:09technically input like you have to look
51:10at the input what what are you putting
51:12in to get out and from there I can see
51:15okay if we didn't test enough or we
51:16tested too much like where to kind of
51:18change the like the the team but a lot
51:20of what I do is really just like seeing
51:23what we're doing seeing what's working
51:24seeing what isn't and then getting on a
51:26call with the team and talking to the
51:27team and telling them okay focus more on
51:28this focus more on that to some extent
51:30and Richard Bmpson said this best he
51:31goes I'm like a consultant for my own
51:33businesses and that's kind of what it
51:34comes to when you've delegated as much
51:36as you can and you've like done a good
51:38job at it. You end up kind of becoming a
51:40consultant for your own business if that
51:42makes sense.
51:42>> Yeah, makes total sense. Would you say
51:44that's like a lot of what your
51:45day-to-day is now or are you still
51:47working on it? Is it just more so like
51:48consulting the team and reviewing?
51:49>> Yeah, I think the day-to-day is
51:51messaging a lot. So, a lot of people
51:52getting back to people. Like for
51:53example, I track my working hours a lot.
51:55I'm very intentional on like what I do
51:57when I get on my laptop, right? So, like
51:59every single minute is being tracked,
52:01right? I'm very like autistic about
52:02that. So, track everything. And uh we
52:06typically I do spend a lot of time
52:08messaging, right? Like sometimes I can
52:10literally just load up WhatsApp, Slack,
52:12um Telegram. I load up some of these
52:13channels and I can just send out
52:15messages for like four or five hours
52:16like without break. Like when I wake up,
52:18that's always the first thing I do for
52:19like an hour to two hours is just
52:21message everyone back, get back to
52:22everybody cuz there's always so many
52:23moving things.
52:25>> Um then I usually get into like TDL
52:27stuff. So to like to-do list, like basic
52:28stuff, okay, like what do I have to do
52:30today? Okay, I have to send a loom on
52:32like this stuff to break it down to this
52:34employee. And like a lot of it is
52:35literally just communicating the right
52:37things, right? And then the best my
52:39favorite thing to do which is the most
52:40important is go through the data like I
52:42mentioned. So like seeing what's
52:43working, what isn't, um how can we
52:44expand looking at competitor data as
52:46well. A lot of it is data, bro. That's
52:48like really where like that's like the
52:49magic wand of it all. And I mean like we
52:52have all these other projects we do too
52:53like like I was telling you before like
52:54tellahalth as well. So we have like the
52:56tellah health B2B company. We have our
52:58own tellah health brands. like all that
52:59stuff I'm really trying to work on
53:00because eventually I want to get out of
53:02ecom eventually you know I want to sell
53:04our brands get out of our brands and
53:05just focus on our tellah health brands
53:07because that's where I see the future of
53:09ecom going and I think that that's going
53:11to be like the biggest money maker
53:12>> yeah could you tell me a bit more about
53:14that like telly health like what it is
53:16how it works and what what you're
53:17working towards
53:18>> yeah so tellalth is just a part of ecom
53:19right so a lot of people know like him
53:21and hers right with like the doctor
53:22backend it's like you're just selling
53:24medicine so HIMS is a billion dollar
53:26company everybody knows him
53:28>> drop ships Bro, it's all drop ship from
53:30the pharmacy. Like they don't actually
53:32own like they don't make the medicine.
53:33It's just a pharmacy. They're just drop
53:34shipping. So when you look at like these
53:37type of businesses, it's again it's
53:38ecom, it's the same distribution channel
53:40being like Meta and all this stuff. It's
53:42just a little bit of a different
53:43backend, right? So when you get an ad
53:45for HIMS and you go to HIMS or Bluetooth
53:46or whatever like large known tele health
53:48business that people know, you go to
53:50their website. It's a product page, very
53:52simple stuff. And instead of it just
53:54being like a Shopify checkout or a
53:56checkout, you go through like an intake
53:58form. So it's like they ask you
53:59questions and whatnot after they get all
54:01your data. You then then you check out.
54:03It's just an extra step kind of like a
54:04quiz funnel. And then from there the
54:07order gets sent to like a pharmacy. The
54:08pharmacy approves it and then ships it
54:10out to the customer. So again, it's just
54:11like drop shipping with the extra step
54:13and you're selling medicine. The reason
54:15I like this a lot is cuz medicine works,
54:17bro. Like for example, if you're like
54:19buying like JLPs, right? So JLP's like
54:23uh Ozanic and all this stuff has become
54:24very popular. It works very well, bro.
54:26Like very well. But then you go to Tik
54:28Tok shop and you see like these GLP
54:29patches and these other products, those
54:31don't work. The thing that works is the
54:32medicine. And at the end of the day,
54:34like the retention on medicine is insane
54:36because people actually stick with it.
54:38You know, you you can go to the extent
54:39of even, you know, selling TRT online.
54:41There's brands that, you know, sell TRT
54:43that make millions a week with TRT. Like
54:46not even a month, a week. So the the
54:49industry is huge and the multiples are
54:50great. I just think it's the future of
54:52it and people are not going to the far
54:54to the pharmacy as much, not going to
54:55the doctor as much. It's all happening
54:56online. So that's why I went into this
54:58industry. We we purchased a B2B company
55:00that is like the Shopify for tellahalth.
55:02We haven't pushed it out. It's my first
55:04time mentioning it. We haven't pushed it
55:05out at all because I want my own
55:06in-house brands to work and then we'll
55:07push it out. But um yeah, I think this
55:10is the future and eventually I want to
55:11get out of ecom completely and just
55:13focus on this and it's to me it's the
55:15best.
55:16>> Exciting, bro. So if I'm understanding
55:17correctly then you you would um
55:20essentially do the same thing drop ship
55:22on behalf of pharmacy. You would create
55:23like an agreement with the pharmacy have
55:25your own branding. Is that how it works?
55:26>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's your own
55:27branding. It's agreement with the
55:28pharmacy. It it it's like the pharmacy
55:30is like the manufacturer. That's the
55:31thing. And there's like the doctor is in
55:33between. Right. So again you have the
55:35intake form. The customer goes to the
55:36intake form. Once they uh they purchase
55:39and they get approved and then the the
55:40med is shipped right to them, right?
55:42There's obviously like little extra
55:44steps like for example there's what we
55:46call a patient portal to instead of like
55:47a customer service like email back and
55:49forth the the patient actually has like
55:51a custom portal where they can talk
55:53directly to the doctor right so a lot of
55:56like extra [ __ ] like that is like
55:57obviously new but at the end of the day
56:00if again if you can crack it to me it's
56:02the best it's totally the best I think
56:04you've you've done it again you've taken
56:06like the the what everyone else is doing
56:07with like Kalo data and supplements
56:09flipped it on its head and like how can
56:11I turn this into like a real longterm
56:12brand. At least that's how it seems from
56:14the way you're describing it.
56:15>> 100%, dude. It's all longterm, right?
56:17Because like when it comes to like the
56:18medicine stuff, it's LTV based, right?
56:20So, if a customer buys um you're not
56:23going to make money for the first couple
56:24months cuz the CSS are obviously high in
56:26medical, but you'll make money year two,
56:28year three. So, it's one of those things
56:29where you just have to keep acquiring,
56:30keep going, and then it'll work. But
56:32eventually, we'll launch the B2B side.
56:33We'll bring people to it. I mean, the
56:35audience will definitely help with that.
56:36Um, but I do think a lot of people
56:38should get into the Tellah Health game,
56:39look into getting into it because it's
56:40it's it's very new. It's very growing.
56:42>> Yeah. Amazing. Well, um I think that's
56:45probably about it for today's
56:47conversation. We've been talking for
56:48around about an hour. Um any sort of
56:51Well, first of all, I want to say thank
56:52you for coming on. First of all, uh it's
56:54been an absolute pleasure learning a bit
56:55more about yourself, your experience,
56:57and your businesses. And uh thank you
56:59for sharing as well. Like I say, um not
57:01to keep highlighting your age, but in my
57:03eyes, cuz I'm getting I'm not getting
57:04older, but I'm 29. So, everyone that's
57:06younger than 29 is young to me now. So
57:08to be 21 and to have done the things
57:10you've done and continue growing in the
57:12space and to hear the goals that you've
57:14got, it's um always very uh inspiring
57:16and also just great to hear um you know
57:18your side of things and and what it is
57:20you're working on. So thank you for
57:21[clears throat] sharing that.
57:22>> And um in terms of like today's podcast,
57:25what we've spoken about um any closing
57:28thoughts maybe or just to summarize some
57:29some takehomes from the things that
57:31we've spoken about?
57:32>> Yeah, I think this was a pretty high
57:33higher level podcast. So assuming most
57:35of the people that got through the end
57:36know about ecom already and stuff, I I
57:38think the the basis of it is like just
57:40don't over complicate it. The the issue
57:42with education at the end of the day is
57:44it does become constricting to where if
57:47like and I've been in this boat before
57:48where I'll watch too much content and
57:50like have too many different like ways
57:51of doing something and then I just get I
57:54just slow down. I don't really focus
57:56that much because it's just so many
57:57things going on in my head. I think when
57:59people watch this type of content, take
58:00it with a grain of salt because what
58:02might work for you is different from us.
58:04like I cannot count the amount of times
58:05I've met somebody who scaled a product
58:07with a different method or a different
58:08way um versus what I preach and what I
58:11teach. So I think at the end of the day,
58:13take it with a grain of salt. Try it
58:15out. Try out some of our methods. If it
58:16doesn't work, pivot, you know what I
58:18mean? Like
58:19>> everyone's different and everyone has
58:20their own way of getting to riches. So
58:22yeah,
58:22>> I think that's a really important note
58:24actually just to add a little bit of
58:26context there because
58:27>> we're always just speaking from
58:28experience and that's the only thing we
58:30can do, right? is speak about what has
58:31worked for us and the other people that
58:33we've worked with. Uh I may have
58:34slightly different experience to you but
58:36we align on many things which is like
58:38branding building equity building
58:39something longterm. So at least we have
58:41that that we can kind of share on but
58:43even still from different perspectives
58:44uh perspectives you're talking about
58:46meta creative testing pushing to product
58:48pages I'm talking about Google high
58:50ticket using listicles and advertorials.
58:52So like we all have our own way of doing
58:53things and like you say there's not only
58:55one way to do things. So, I think that's
58:57a great note to end on like uh take it
59:00with a pinch of salt. Take it with a
59:01grain of salt. Like do your own
59:02research, test and find what works for
59:04you.
59:04>> 100%, man. 100%.
59:06>> Well, Samir, thank you very much for
59:07coming on. It's been an absolute
59:08pleasure. I really appreciate your time.
59:10>> Yeah. Thank you, man. It's been great.

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