How the Media Became a Propaganda Machine | Sharyl Attkisson — Transcript

Full transcript

1. 0:00Sheryl, thanks for joining us. Really
2. 0:01appreciate it.
3. 0:02Great to be here. Thanks, Sean.
4. 0:05So,
5. 0:06I just
6. 0:08I got to get your take on how
7. 0:10these riots in LA are being covered.
8. 0:34Because
9. 0:35the last
10. 0:37several years plus
11. 0:40have not been good for media trust. And
12. 0:44you've worked, you know, at place like
13. 0:46CBS. You've been around. You obviously
14. 0:49have the show now, very successful.
15. 0:51When you see the coverage, the way it is
16. 0:54now
17. 0:55where they continue after everything
18. 0:57that we've seen, the the Russia hoax,
19. 0:59we're going to get into a lot of the
20. 1:00health care stuff that we dealt with
21. 1:02with COVID. Um but just I I can't
22. 1:05believe that folks in the media don't at
23. 1:08some point say, "All right, we we've got
24. 1:10to be a little bit more straight." And I
25. 1:12keep hearing about peaceful protest.
26. 1:14We're watching cars get burned. We're
27. 1:15watching reporters' stuff get burned and
28. 1:17smashed. And yet
29. 1:19like there's no sense of like shame.
30. 1:24Well, the industry, my industry as you
31. 1:26know has changed dramatically in the
32. 1:27course of the last 20 years. I like to
33. 1:30say as I've written that any form of
34. 1:32communication that can be co-opted by
35. 1:34propagandists has been. And that of
36. 1:37course includes the news media which has
37. 1:38undergone this radical transformation.
38. 1:41So, I think you have people reporting
39. 1:43who are no longer if they ever were, I
40. 1:46think we we used to do a pretty good job
41. 1:48at being neutral observers of facts and
42. 1:50things like that. And that's just not
43. 1:52the case anymore at many news
44. 1:53organizations. I think reporters are
45. 1:55rewarded for taking a particular
46. 1:58viewpoint. When I left CBS ahead of my
47. 2:00contract, part of that was because many
48. 2:03of us felt like, not just me, we were
49. 2:05being told to take a certain viewpoint
50. 2:07in a story ahead of even gathering the
51. 2:09facts or even researching the story. And
52. 2:13when the facts didn't come out the way
53. 2:14certain supervisors wanted them to come
54. 2:16out, they either wanted you to change
55. 2:18the story in a way that was dishonest
56. 2:20sometimes or they didn't want to air the
57. 2:22story at all if you insisted on being
58. 2:24factually accurate. So, I know there's
59. 2:26got to be an element of that going on at
60. 2:28news organizations.
61. 2:30And it's funny cuz that's actually was
62. 2:32exactly how what I was going to ask you
63. 2:33next. Like, so if you're a reporter out
64. 2:35there
65. 2:36and you're writing about mostly peaceful
66. 2:37protest, is that because you, the
67. 2:40reporter, do you think
68. 2:42believes in that narrative or do you
69. 2:44think that you're either pleasing your
70. 2:45boss at headquarters or corporate or
71. 2:49they're telling you to do that?
72. 2:51Well, it could be either one.
73. 2:53Um, certainly they reporters are being
74. 2:55dictated to in some instances how they
75. 2:58should term things as if it's the
76. 3:00responsible thing to do. Be sure and
77. 3:03point out mostly peaceful or they may be
78. 3:05told that from a certain supervisors in
79. 3:08New York, for example, and they don't
80. 3:09really have a choice if that's the
81. 3:10direction they've been given unless they
82. 3:12want to quit or just simply say as I
83. 3:14tried to do occasionally, that's not
84. 3:16factually accurate. You need to try to
85. 3:18make your case. Um, but then you're
86. 3:20likely to be pulled from the story if
87. 3:21somebody really wants a particular
88. 3:23narrative out and you're not going to
89. 3:24fulfill it. So,
90. 3:26that's the problem with today's news
91. 3:27coverage.
92. 3:29There was this clip that I played
93. 3:31earlier in the week. I want to play it
94. 3:32for you from an ABC News affiliate about
95. 3:35what was happening there and I want to
96. 3:36just show it to you and and get you to
97. 3:37react. Take a look.
98. 3:38Large group of people, it could turn
99. 3:40very volatile if you move law
100. 3:42enforcement in there in the wrong way
101. 3:44and turn what is just a bunch of people
102. 3:46um having fun watching cars burn into um
103. 3:49a massive confrontation and altercation
104. 3:52between officers and and uh
105. 3:55demonstrators.
106. 3:56Now Now, Sheryl, I I don't know you well
107. 3:59enough to know exactly what you do for
108. 4:01fun. Um but I I don't know a ton of
109. 4:04people who go out for fun to watch cars
110. 4:07burn in public. So, I I was shocked by
111. 4:10that narrative. The idea that they were
112. 4:12saying, "Aside from people watching cars
113. 4:14burn for fun."
114. 4:16I don't I don't even understand that. I
115. 4:18I
116. 4:19It sounds like it was a live shot and
117. 4:21maybe he regretted what he said pretty
118. 4:23quickly after he said it or maybe
119. 4:25someone told him later
120. 4:26how crazy that sounded because I don't
121. 4:28think even you know, whatever side
122. 4:30you're on on these issues, I don't think
123. 4:32that makes any sense.
124. 4:34No.
125. 4:34Um
126. 4:35the other big Well, there's a couple big
127. 4:37stories in the media and I before I get
128. 4:38to to sort of
129. 4:40big pharma and health care that I want
130. 4:42to get you to to weigh in on. Obviously,
131. 4:44the big one this week that that didn't
132. 4:45get as much coverage as it probably
133. 4:46should have is Terry Moran had started
134. 4:48off the week um over at ABC News going
135. 4:51on a
136. 4:5212:06 Saturday night a.m. uh Twitter
137. 4:56storm
138. 4:57uh on Stephen Miller talking about that
139. 4:59he eats hate and such.
140. 5:01What I found fascinating about the
141. 5:02story, though, is
142. 5:04ABC said nothing. They literally said
143. 5:07nothing all week. To this day, have not
144. 5:10actually put out a statement or a tweet
145. 5:12from ABC PR. They commented on Elon
146. 5:15Musk's uh you know, the tweets that he
147. 5:18put out. But how does a network like ABC
148. 5:21get away with not even having to comment
149. 5:23because
150. 5:25what I found fascinating is it's not
151. 5:26just that they didn't put anything out,
152. 5:28but you would think that other media
153. 5:30outlets would be calling them saying,
154. 5:31"Do you have a comment on Terry Moran
155. 5:33and what he said and whether it adheres
156. 5:35to ABC news standards?" And yet, here we
157. 5:38are 7 days later almost and nada.
158. 5:42Well, I've been traveling, so I'm not up
159. 5:44to date on all the latest news, but I
160. 5:46think they did put out a statement and
161. 5:47they said that they basically fired him
162. 5:49or decided not to renew.
163. 5:51What?
164. 5:52Yeah, but but but here's they didn't put
165. 5:53out a statement. Brian Stelter from CNN
166. 5:57said that this is what's happening. It
167. 5:59wasn't He sort of has a background
168. 6:01source at ABC. So, you have a a quote
169. 6:04media personality at CNN
170. 6:07talking about what's happening, but ABC
171. 6:09never issued an actual statement or
172. 6:10anything. Brian Stelter at CNN says what
173. 6:13ABC's going to do, which I think is a
174. 6:15pretty weasely way of handling it.
175. 6:17Well, that is interesting and you know,
176. 6:19I noticed one thing when I tried to read
177. 6:21some a little more of the coverage about
178. 6:23that because
179. 6:25a lot of news anchors and reporters have
180. 6:27made similar statements if not worse
181. 6:29with impunity in recent years. So, I
182. 6:31wondered what made ABC decide to take
183. 6:33action.
184. 6:34And if this is accurate what I read,
185. 6:37they already had let his contract lapse
186. 6:40and had not renewed him. They said that
187. 6:42um in what I read, this basically tipped
188. 6:45the scale. They decided not to renew
189. 6:47him, but his contract had already
190. 6:48lapsed. That's unusual in our in our
191. 6:50industry. If they're going to keep you,
192. 6:52they don't let your contract completely
193. 6:53lapse. And it makes me wonder if Terry
194. 6:56Moran didn't try to go out in a blaze of
195. 6:59glory if he sensed that he was not going
196. 7:01to be renewed at ABC. And you know,
197. 7:03certainly his his profile raises to some
198. 7:06degree if he's looking at a book or
199. 7:07another job if he makes a stink over
200. 7:10something like he did, which just didn't
201. 7:12make a lot of sense why he did that.
202. 7:15It's almost like he's going full Acosta.
203. 7:16Like I have a feeling that next week he
204. 7:18announces he's going to be on Substack.
205. 7:20He's going to have his own podcast and
206. 7:22he's going to be the real I mean, kind
207. 7:23of like it was like he was pretending to
208. 7:25be a journalist for decades and now he's
209. 7:27going to say I can finally be the
210. 7:28authentic Terry Moran. Kind of like how
211. 7:30in a Jim Acosta's going out there on his
212. 7:32own. Uh I so I I actually I love the
213. 7:35theory cuz I think that's that's
214. 7:36interesting. But but um
215. 7:39Stephen Miller had initially responded
216. 7:41to Terry Moran and basically said that,
217. 7:44you know, this was typical of what most
218. 7:47journalists think. And then Chuck Todd
219. 7:49came after him and said, "It's so sad
220. 7:51that this administration has no interest
221. 7:53to try to bring the country together.
222. 7:55They intentionally create division is
223. 7:58how you win short-term and lo- lose
224. 8:00long-term." Um a patriotic like they're
225. 8:02basically saying, "Hey, this isn't
226. 8:05actually
227. 8:06um
228. 8:07what
229. 8:08what
230. 8:09Chuck Todd's answer was, "Don't don't
231. 8:11try to group us all into what Terry
232. 8:13Moran did. It's an isolated incident."
233. 8:15And Stephen Miller's basically like,
234. 8:17"No, you're all the same. He just said
235. 8:19the quiet part out loud." Do you think
236. 8:21that like
237. 8:22that Stephen had a point that this isn't
238. 8:24just Terry Moran. He just got caught at
239. 8:2612:06 a.m. probably after a couple pops
240. 8:29saying what he believes. And Chuck got
241. 8:31very defensive thinking, "Well, it's
242. 8:32just a one-off. Like we most of us
243. 8:34aren't like this."
244. 8:36Well, the attack saying that most of us
245. 8:38aren't like this was itself sort of in
246. 8:40the same vein as the original, you know,
247. 8:43accusation, wasn't it? And I think we
248. 8:45have plenty of evidence that many in the
249. 8:47media do feel that way because some of
250. 8:49them have made no secret of it and as I
251. 8:51said have expressed these things with
252. 8:53impunity. I'll even go a step further
253. 8:55and say we've seen, as I tracked in
254. 8:58recent years, so much misreporting
255. 9:00factual errors on one side against
256. 9:02Donald Trump and those who support him.
257. 9:05And yet those reporters, there was a
258. 9:07time I would say 15 years ago when you
259. 9:09made major media mistakes like that that
260. 9:12you'd lose your job. And instead
261. 9:14reporters like Maggie Haberman at The
262. 9:16New York Times and others, when they
263. 9:18proved to be conflicted or biased or
264. 9:20wrong with their anonymous sources,
265. 9:23are continued to be promoted and given
266. 9:25headline status. So I I think this is
267. 9:27more than just a one-off with Terry
268. 9:30Moran. I think we know that this is
269. 9:32something that's grown pretty pervasive
270. 9:34in the mainstream media.
271. 9:36Uh the other big media story this week
272. 9:38is the Associated Press
273. 9:40had was ruled against by the courts. The
274. 9:43currently now the White House can keep
275. 9:45them from being in the the Oval Office
276. 9:47or or Air Force One, but they can they
277. 9:49have to be allowed into the big rooms,
278. 9:50the East Room, etc.
279. 9:52From a from your journalistic
280. 9:54background, is the White House on the
281. 9:56right side of this or is the AP?
282. 9:59Well, I'm mixed on this issue because
283. 10:01obviously as a journalist, I
284. 10:03really tread lightly and think the
285. 10:05government should do anything that
286. 10:06limits journalists in any way. And if if
287. 10:10I'm correct on this and Sean, you may
288. 10:11know more, the fight the White House
289. 10:14picked with AP was AP refusing to say
290. 10:16Gulf of America
291. 10:18when in fact I think there are many more
292. 10:20substantive and important things to take
293. 10:23beefs with over at AP which has become,
294. 10:26you know, practically wholly owned by
295. 10:28propagandists and those on the left and
296. 10:30the pharmaceutical industry and so on.
297. 10:32Um, I'm not sure that was the fight to
298. 10:34pick over naming, you know, whether
299. 10:37they're going to use a certain name for
300. 10:38the Gulf of America. Um, so I'm I'm a
301. 10:41little mixed on that. I do think we've
302. 10:44put the administration and Donald Trump
303. 10:46in particular in the position with so
304. 10:48much misreporting and false reporting
305. 10:50and bias that he's in the position of
306. 10:52feeling as though if he doesn't do
307. 10:55something there's nobody neutral who's
308. 10:57going to stand up and do the right
309. 10:58thing. So, he's taking actions and I
310. 11:00covered this on my show Full Measure
311. 11:02that appear to be clamping down free
312. 11:05press, but even
313. 11:07Frank Sesno, an analyst at George
314. 11:09Washington University I interviewed
315. 11:10said, you know, to the extent that this
316. 11:13makes some in the media more careful
317. 11:14about the mistakes they've made when
318. 11:17Donald Trump is actually coming after
319. 11:18them and winning some awards and
320. 11:20settlements, that can be a good thing.
321. 11:22If it goes too far and makes journalist
322. 11:25chilled and fearful of doing accurate
323. 11:27reporting on somebody, obviously that's
324. 11:29not something I I I to see.
325. 11:31What first of all, I love your show uh
326. 11:33full measure. It's so like you the
327. 11:35topics that you hit and the way that you
328. 11:36cover them. I I just it's so missing in
329. 11:39the um
330. 11:40in the environment in the in the media
331. 11:42landscape. And I I I love how you choose
332. 11:44topics and then how you cover them. So,
333. 11:47when you look at a story like this, what
334. 11:49would be an example of
335. 11:51clamping down on on on the First
336. 11:53Amendment or on the press?
337. 11:56Well, there's a question as to whether
338. 11:57if if reporters begin to feel as though
339. 12:00they have to curry favor with the
340. 12:02administration in order to get ordinary
341. 12:05access. Now, Donald Trump is so
342. 12:07accessible, it's hard to argue that
343. 12:08you're not getting access if you're kept
344. 12:10out of a room. But in general, if
345. 12:12reporters start to feel as though they
346. 12:13curry favor to get access and that must
347. 12:15be done or else you and your news news
348. 12:18organization will be cut off from
349. 12:20ordinary and routine access. That's
350. 12:22something that could you know, that
351. 12:24could be an unintended side effect or
352. 12:27consequence of going after the media
353. 12:29understandably for the things that
354. 12:31they've done wrong. So, I guess I don't
355. 12:33have a simple answer as to where I stand
356. 12:36on all these issues, but
357. 12:38No, no. And I think it's a fair point,
358. 12:40but I would argue that if you think
359. 12:41about what um
360. 12:44what what Biden did by restricting
361. 12:46conservative media and shutting out
362. 12:48certain certain outlets versus say Trump
363. 12:51to your point. I mean, think about how
364. 12:52much how accessible he is, how many of
365. 12:54those reporters are, you know, at the
366. 12:56Marine One or in the Oval Office. I
367. 12:59mean, you know, you look at the daily um
368. 13:02pool report. You've got the Huffington
369. 13:04Post.
370. 13:06I I would argue that if you think about
371. 13:07Trump, he's more transparent, more
372. 13:09accessible than any president in
373. 13:10history. Whereas Biden did more to
374. 13:13restrict press access writ large and
375. 13:16against one ideological side.
376. 13:19Absolutely. I think you can't argue
377. 13:21against the notion that Trump is the
378. 13:23most accessible president that we've
379. 13:25known certainly in my time. And so it
380. 13:28makes it harder, I think, for AP to make
381. 13:30the case that boy, if we are limited in
382. 13:32certain ways, the the public suffers and
383. 13:35we don't have access because there is so
384. 13:37much access on a daily basis with this
385. 13:40president and his administration.
386. 13:42Yeah. All right, before I get into some
387. 13:44of the the pharma healthcare maha stuff,
388. 13:48there was a hearing today that I mean,
389. 13:49excuse me, this week that I didn't hear
390. 13:51a word about until I saw you
391. 13:55give light to it.
392. 13:56And it was a hearing that James Comer
393. 13:58had in the Oversight Committee
394. 14:01that I didn't even I mean, I literally
395. 14:03until I saw Sharyl Attkisson post about
396. 14:06it, I was like, I didn't know about
397. 14:07this. And it was about 23andMe and
398. 14:10potential privacy concerns.
399. 14:12And and you wrote in your newsletter, he
400. 14:14stressed that 23andMe and all companies
401. 14:16handling genetic data must ensure that
402. 14:19there's no legal or legal path for
403. 14:20adversaries or hostile entities to
404. 14:22exploit Americans' DNA. The committee,
405. 14:25he said, will consider legislative
406. 14:26solutions. And I think to myself, like
407. 14:28in the military right now, you are not
408. 14:31supposed to use 23andMe because the idea
409. 14:34is we don't want our adversaries to have
410. 14:36critical data on service members.
411. 14:39And I I I was like, this is a big big
412. 14:42deal. And it I I think the question to
413. 14:44me is, explain why you think uh that
414. 14:48this is so important for us to
415. 14:49understand.
416. 14:51Well, I have to dig into this more.
417. 14:52We've covered this issue a bit on my TV
418. 14:55show how China has gotten access, its
419. 14:58foot in the door to so much that's may
420. 15:00seem benign, but ultimately they're
421. 15:02gathering grains of rice in their
422. 15:04efforts, you know, that span 100 years
423. 15:06to collect intelligence and to try to
424. 15:08become dominant in so many ways. Um but
425. 15:10I think the answer is to why you don't
426. 15:13see many in the media picking up on what
427. 15:15to the people is an obviously big and
428. 15:17important story
429. 15:19is this transformation I've spoken about
430. 15:21in the media where
431. 15:23it used to be that we didn't wait for
432. 15:24someone to tell us what the story is. We
433. 15:26didn't wait for propagandists or let's
434. 15:28say websites and nonprofits and
435. 15:30political figures to tell us what the
436. 15:33marching orders are for the day. We went
437. 15:35out, at least I did as an investigative
438. 15:37reporter and I still do. I listen to
439. 15:39people. I try to find great issues that
440. 15:41matter to people and I'm I'm not taking
441. 15:43my cues from what these organized forces
442. 15:46would like us to report, but I can tell
443. 15:48you many news organizations and many TV
444. 15:51shows do exactly that. If this is not
445. 15:54going to, for whatever reason, 23andMe
446. 15:57or some other story serve a particular
447. 15:59interest in the right way and they're
448. 16:01not going to put it on the plate of
449. 16:03those they contact in the news media
450. 16:04every day. It's just not going to make
451. 16:06it as into a position of prominence. So,
452. 16:09I think those are super important
453. 16:10stories and one of the most valuable
454. 16:12things we can do is find those stories
455. 16:14and still try to report them in a good
456. 16:17and accurate way, especially these
457. 16:18stories that mean these health stories
458. 16:20as you mentioned that mean so much to so
459. 16:22many people and impact so many people,
460. 16:25but aren't giving getting the due
461. 16:26coverage because they're not being put
462. 16:29on the plate of the media every day as
463. 16:31part of the daily diet.
464. 16:37Well, if you enjoyed this content, make
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