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How Small Carriers Can Cut $18K–$30K Insurance Costs — Transcript

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0:00Especially on the on the small one
0:01truck, one, you know, single unit owner
0:03operator, that driving record is
0:04generally looked at as the largest
0:06predictor of future claims. I would tell
0:08people that I would expect to pay
0:09anywhere from like the 15,000 range as a
0:12new company starting off.
0:13>> Welcome to this week in trucking. I'm
0:15Caroline. Today I'm really excited to
0:17have Matt Planetta, vice president of
0:20Hefernon Insurance Brokers with us today
0:22to talk everything about insurance,
0:25commercial insurance for trucking
0:27businesses and how you can save money on
0:30those insurance bills. Matt, thanks so
0:32much for joining us.
0:33>> Thanks for having me, Caroline. I
0:34appreciate it.
0:35>> Tell me, how did you get into this
0:36business of insuring trucking
0:39businesses?
0:39>> So, like most people, I think in the
0:41insurance business, I kind of
0:43accidentally stumbled into it. I'm
0:45actually a third generation insurance
0:47broker. My grandpa started a truck
0:49insurance agency back in the 80s. And
0:51then my uncle took over for him when he
0:54u was ready to retire and I was going to
0:56school and I got working for my finance
0:57degree and started working part-time in
0:59the agency and answering phones and
1:02taking the trash out and picking up the
1:04mail and all that kind of stuff and
1:05actually really enjoyed it and ended up
1:07staying with it and I've been doing it
1:08for over 20 years now.
1:10>> Wow. I think stumbling into it might be
1:12the wrong phrase. Maybe being born into
1:15it. It It sounds like
1:17>> I was born into it, but nobody grows up
1:18saying, "I want to be index." So,
1:21>> Well, have you always done trucking
1:23insurance? Has that always been the area
1:25that that you're in and how has that
1:28changed over the time that you've been
1:29doing it?
1:30>> Good question. So, yes, I have always
1:32done transportation insurance. So, it's
1:34just the kind of the niche that that we
1:36started in. So, when my grandpa before
1:38he started the the agency, he actually
1:40worked for a truck insurance company. So
1:43he had clients that became friends
1:45throughout all the years and everything
1:46else that that he grew close to. Knew
1:49the business from both the trucking side
1:51of it and the insurance side of it and
1:53felt like there was a need and opening
1:54on the the brokerage side. So he split
1:56off from there, started his own
1:58brokerage and we've always done
1:59trucking, always done transportation.
2:01We've expanded a little bit on that. So
2:03we, you know, do courier type business,
2:05straight trucks, anything with wheels.
2:07It's a delivery type of business. So
2:09that was kind of how it all started. And
2:11like I said, that was in the mid '80s
2:12and we're still going at it.
2:13>> Take me through the experience of a
2:17carrier trying to get insurance for the
2:19first time. Even despite all of the
2:22uncertainty and the volatility that the
2:25trucking market has seen, there's still
2:27a lot of people out there starting
2:29businesses and because there's still
2:31need, right? Literally any if you sell
2:33anything physical, it has to go on a
2:35truck. So there's still a lot of money
2:37to be made in trucking. Tell me about
2:39how I should approach getting insurance
2:43for my carrier business if I'm starting
2:45a business in 2025.
2:46>> No, you're exactly right. Anything I
2:48tell people all the time, anything that
2:49is purchased that's on a shelf, that's
2:51at a store, at a restaurant, anything
2:53that you're purchasing was ultimately on
2:55a truck at some point. So, it is
2:57critical and it's and it's always going
2:59to be around. There's always going to be
3:00a need for it. It goes with that
3:02obviously is the insurance. So, if
3:05somebody was starting a company,
3:06understanding, you know, who they're
3:08working for, commodities that they're
3:09hauling, the ins and outs of their
3:11unique trucking company, and being able
3:12to communicate that with their insurance
3:14broker because it is such a large
3:17expense and a large line item for them,
3:19especially starting off when they don't
3:20have a history to show, you know, a good
3:22claims history, that kind of stuff to to
3:24get the better rates. being able to show
3:26as much as they can upfront that they
3:28understand what they're doing, that they
3:30are safe, that they're a safe driver,
3:32that they can run and manage a
3:34profitable company and a safe company.
3:35The better the better that they can
3:37picture that upfront to an underwriter,
3:39the better terms, better rates they're
3:40going to get when they're starting off.
3:42>> Bring me into those details. What
3:44specifically are you looking for when a
3:47new trucking business is trying to get
3:50insurance
3:51>> with a new a new company? Underwriters
3:53are going to look at one, they're going
3:55to start off with the driving records.
3:57What do the MBRS look like? If it's a
3:59single unit owner operator, what does
4:01that MBR look like? Because that's going
4:03to show the driving history.
4:05>> And MVR is motor vehicle record.
4:07>> Motor vehicle record. Correct. Correct.
4:09Yep. So, it's going to show a three-year
4:10history of the motor vehicle record,
4:12similar to what you are in your personal
4:13vehicle. Um, they're going to want to
4:16see that. Also, they're going to want to
4:17see they're going to pull what's called
4:18a pre-employment screening or a PSP.
4:21They're going to see they want to see
4:22what the roadside inspections have been
4:24for that driver previously if they've
4:26worked for somebody else. They want to
4:27see a work history. So they're splitting
4:29off on their own as a new company. Do
4:31they have contracts? Do they know who
4:34they're working with? Or are they just
4:36going to go on the spot market and
4:37they're just going to pick up a load
4:38from here to get to here and then they
4:41have no idea how they're going to get
4:42from that point to the next point and
4:44just kind of figure it out as they go.
4:46or do they already have relationships
4:47with the customers and they know I'm
4:49going to be hauling similar products
4:51through regular routes, that kind of
4:53stuff where there's those controls that
4:54are in place. So, I think that that's
4:56the biggest thing is being able to show
4:58one that they know what they're doing
4:59and then two that they have the history
5:01on the driving that they are a safe
5:02driver. That's interesting because I've
5:04heard a lot about driving records and
5:06how important that is that even if you
5:08bring on a new driver, you know, don't
5:11give them the offer until you've sent
5:12their information to your insurance
5:13broker and make sure you can afford to
5:15insure them.
5:16>> 100%.
5:17>> So, driving record super important
5:20obviously if the company already has a
5:22history, the safety history of that
5:24company. I didn't know that you also
5:28look at who their customers are going to
5:31be. talk about that. Why is that part
5:34important to bring to your insurance
5:36broker?
5:37>> So, to me, it's important because the
5:39communication between the trucking
5:41company and the insurance broker and the
5:43insurance underwriter is is really,
5:45really important. And to me, I like to
5:48be able to talk to the trucking company
5:49and understand all those details that we
5:51talked about. You know, who they're who
5:52they're hauling for, where they're
5:54going, are they running during the day,
5:55are they running at night, is in running
5:57the same routes. The more information
5:59that I have, the better picture that I
6:01can paint to an underwriter. Because to
6:03an underwriter, they may be getting
6:05multiple multiple submissions that look
6:07the same on paper. They're one truck,
6:08they're two trucks, they're hauling
6:10general freight, but they don't really
6:11know what they're hauling, and they're
6:13running unlimited radius, which doesn't
6:15really tell them anything. So, I want to
6:17make sure that when that particular
6:19trucking company comes across the desk
6:21for an underwriter, they can look at all
6:23of that and they understand exactly what
6:25it is that they're underwriting because
6:27generally if if they don't understand
6:29something, they're going to error on the
6:30side of caution, which means more more
6:32premium, more cost to the trucking
6:34company. So, the little bit of work that
6:35we can do up front to paint exactly the
6:38picture that they're going to be
6:40underwriting and and and covering on the
6:42insurance policy, the better terms, the
6:44better pricing that we're going to get
6:45with that little bit of work up front.
6:47>> Business owners like to be prepared.
6:48Small business owners always know that
6:50they have to be prepared. What does that
6:52preparation look like when I'm going to
6:54work with an insurance broker? What kind
6:56of information or documentation do I
6:58need about my customers? Is it letters
7:00of support from my customers? Or is it
7:03just a business plan with customers or
7:06load boards or regions that I've worked
7:08out are the best opportunities for me?
7:10>> I think the the letters of support
7:12always always help.
7:14>> But that's not always easy to get. So,
7:16more than anything, it's just it's just
7:18the details of, you know, I I've worked
7:20with this company or these companies for
7:22x amount of time. I know where I'm
7:24picking up. I know where I'm delivering.
7:26I know the product. I know how to secure
7:27the product. whatever it is that that
7:29goes into that safe operation for that
7:31customer, those are the details that I
7:34that that I need to be able to express
7:35to an underwriter so that they get
7:37comfortable with it.
7:38>> I know some different types of freight
7:41require different types of insurance.
7:44So, some of the more commonly known ones
7:47are maybe oversized or overweight. Refer
7:52requires a specific type of interchange
7:54insurance. What are some of the
7:57commodity types or the types of freight
7:59that people don't think necessarily
8:01think about for special insurance? Cuz I
8:04know some people will get into
8:05situations where they're hauling
8:06something that they didn't know they
8:07needed special insurance for.
8:09>> Correct. Correct. Yeah. And a lot of
8:11times, and to your point, you're exactly
8:13right. They'll say, "Well, I'm just
8:14going to haul general freight." And they
8:15have no idea what general freight could
8:17be. I mean, it could be groceries one
8:19day, could be, you know, dry goods, dry
8:20groceries one day. It could be paper
8:22another day. Or it could be a load that
8:24they pick up and it has batteries in it
8:26and it has enough batteries that now is
8:28classified as hazmat because there's
8:30enough batteries that it's considered as
8:32hazardous and they don't have the right
8:35hazmat endorsement on their license.
8:36They don't have the right insurance
8:38limits on the insurance. They're only
8:40carrying let's say 750,000 but because
8:42it's hazmat now they're required to
8:44carry a million and they don't have the
8:45right limits. So, there are certain
8:47situations where they get into something
8:49like that and they don't they don't know
8:51what they're getting into or an
8:53oversized overweight load. You know,
8:55they have a general 100,000 limit on
8:57their cargo insurance, but they're going
8:59to haul a piece of equipment that's
9:00worth 500,000.
9:02>> So, now they don't have the right
9:03insurance to cover that piece of
9:05equipment that they're looking to haul.
9:07>> Let's talk about cost for a minute. how
9:09much generally let's say I'm going to do
9:13nonspecialized
9:15non-hazmat sort of general freight which
9:18is probably the wrong term to use. We
9:19might need to stop using that term so
9:21much because general freight isn't
9:23always just general anything. If I'm
9:25getting into the business for the first
9:27time, let's say I have clean MBR, but I
9:29haven't owned a company yet before I'm
9:31starting my my trucking business. Let's
9:34say I have a drive van. How much is it
9:36going to cost me to insure my business?
9:38Let's say I've been driving for like 10
9:40years.
9:41>> Driving like 10 years. Clean clean
9:42record, good equipment, you know,
9:44everything looks looks good, but you're
9:46just starting off on your own. So,
9:47depending on where you're at in the
9:49country, obviously there's some parts of
9:50the of the country that are going to be
9:52less than other parks. You know, from if
9:54I'm just starting in California versus
9:56just starting in Nebraska, it's going to
9:57be two different rates that you're
9:58looking at. If you're looking at just
10:00ballpark numbers, usually I would tell
10:02people that I would expect to pay
10:04anywhere from like the 15,000 range as a
10:07new company starting off for the auto
10:09liability, the cargo, the physical
10:11damage depending on the value of your
10:12equipment, general liability. So, the
10:14coverages that you're going to the base
10:16coverages that you're going to need
10:17ballpark is is tough again depending on
10:20where you're at and stuff like that, but
10:21usually about 15,000 is is a safe bet on
10:24there.
10:24>> And that's annual. How much of that do I
10:26need to pay upfront? Can I pay it
10:28monthly? How does that work?
10:30>> Um, depending on the insurance company
10:32that you go with, some of them offer
10:33monthly plans. Some of them will offer
10:35like a 25% and a 9 monthly payment or a
10:3810 monthly payment. Generally speaking,
10:40you're looking at like a 25 to 35% down
10:43payment. And a lot of those are going to
10:45have to be financed through a finance
10:46company. So then you're looking at
10:48probably 9 or 10 monthly payments after
10:50the down payment. And there's the
10:52interest that's charged by the finance
10:53company on top of that on those monthly
10:55payments. generally around 15,000. Let's
10:58talk about how the different levers of
11:01that can push that price up or bring
11:03that price down. We've already talked
11:05about MVR. So, obviously having a clean
11:07record helps. If you have more on your
11:10record, that price is going to go up.
11:12Would you say that's the number one
11:14factor? Is that the biggest multiplier
11:16of cost is the driving record? I mean I
11:18would say done on especially on the on
11:20the small one truck one you know single
11:22unit owner operator that driving record
11:24is generally looked at as the largest
11:27predictor of future claims especially if
11:29they're just starting off where they
11:30don't have a claims history that they
11:31can look at. So that I would say that
11:33that driving record is probably the most
11:35scrutinized and as the biggest impact on
11:38the rates that they that they're going
11:39to get up front.
11:40>> And then you talked about location. So
11:42where you are in the country can make a
11:45difference. Does it matter even county
11:47by county or city by city? I know for my
11:50car insurance, for example, it's more
11:52expensive for me to insure my car in the
11:55city versus out in the country.
11:58>> Correct. Correct. It may not be as
12:00significant as on the personal
12:01insurance, but it absolutely does. So,
12:03if I'm just as an example, if I'm in
12:05Texas and I'm in the Houston area versus
12:07I'm in Texas and I'm in West Texas, you
12:10know, where there's small towns and and
12:12not nearly the same population,
12:14congestion, theft, that kind of thing
12:16that goes along with the the metro
12:18areas. It does make a difference. And
12:20again, that's part of the communication
12:22between the trucking company, you know,
12:24the owner and the and the broker and the
12:26underwriter, making sure that they
12:27understand exactly what it is that the
12:29exposure is and and that the operation
12:31is. And so that's communicated directly
12:33to to the underwriter so they know
12:35exactly what they're looking at and they
12:37can price it accordingly.
12:38>> We've talked about driving record
12:40location. Let's talk about the type of
12:42equipment that people have. So if I have
12:44a drive van CDL truck or box truck, hot
12:50shot, how did these different equipment
12:52types get priced out? Does that make a
12:55big difference in the price?
12:57>> Probably the biggest difference would be
12:58between the tractor trailer and a box
13:01truck. Generally, the box truck is going
13:02to be less on the liability and then
13:04it's going to be less on the physical
13:05damage because the values aren't the
13:07same on the on a box truck or a straight
13:09truck versus a tractor trailer. So,
13:11those will and they're usually run in a
13:12shorter radius, that kind of thing. So,
13:14those those will usually cost less money
13:16um from an insurance standpoint up front
13:18than a tractor trailer. One thing on the
13:20doulies, the doulies usually will get
13:22rated similar to like what a box truck
13:25would be, even though it's a smaller
13:26pickup truck because of what they're
13:28doing, where they're where they're
13:29going, what they're hauling, that kind
13:30of stuff. and they're operating similar
13:32to a trucking company. Those actually
13:34get rated um about the same as what you
13:36would see on like a box truck or a
13:37tractor trailer.
13:38>> So tractor trailer would be the most
13:40expensive because it can sort of do the
13:43most damage and haul the most freight.
13:45Is that correct?
13:46>> Yeah, the most freight and then it's
13:49it's the hardest the hardest to drive. I
13:51mean there's some some box trucks,
13:52straight trucks that you can actually
13:54drive without the CDL, right? Um, so
13:56yeah, I mean it generally higher claims
13:59on the tractor trailer, therefore the
14:01insurance costs more.
14:02>> All right, we've talked about type of
14:03equipment, location, and routes. So it
14:06sounds like it's not just where the
14:07truck is stored when you're at home, but
14:09also what routes you're going, how far
14:12you're going, if you're going across the
14:13country versus just in the state versus
14:16just local and driving record and
14:19safety. Are we missing any of the main
14:21factors that go into the cost of
14:23insurance when starting a new trucking
14:25business?
14:25>> I think the only other thing that I can
14:27think of on the on the insurance, the
14:29drivers, it's the equipment. It's what
14:31you're hauling and it's and it's where
14:32you're going. And then like you said,
14:34the radius of how are you short hall,
14:36long haul, medium haul, and then the
14:38only thing I think we touched on a
14:40little bit is just the consistency of
14:41those halls, too. So, if I can show that
14:43I'm running a regular route in regular
14:45commodities that it's generally going to
14:48cost a little bit less on the insurance
14:49because the underwriters know that you
14:51have a comfort level with what you're
14:52doing. Anytime that a driver is in a
14:54situation where they're not familiar
14:56with the docks, they're not familiar
14:57with the warehouse, they're not familiar
14:59with all of that stuff tends to lead to
15:01a higher frequency of planes. So the unc
15:04again the uncertainty on on the
15:06operation increases the cost because
15:09they're going to build that they're
15:10going to build that cushion in there
15:12knowing that there's a higher higher
15:14chance of them having a claim in those
15:16situations where they're not
15:17comfortable.
15:18>> More is likely to go wrong when you're
15:20doing something new or something for the
15:21first time.
15:22>> Correct. Correct. And it's similar to
15:23like if you're driving your personal
15:25vehicle, right? If you're if you're
15:26comfortable with where you're going,
15:28you've been there before, you know where
15:29you're going, it's a lot it's a lot
15:31easier, especially, you know, like
15:32getting back to the trucking side. If
15:33I'm at a warehouse that I'm I've never
15:35been to before, and there's a lot of
15:37other a lot of other traffic there, a
15:39lot of trucks and trailers that are
15:40either picking up or delivering, there's
15:42a higher likelihood that I'm going to
15:43have a claim because I don't know
15:45exactly where I'm going to go to pick up
15:47the load or deliver the load versus, oh
15:49yeah, I've been here before. I know I
15:50got to go to to this dock and it's one
15:52way around this corner and I have to go
15:54check in at the guard shack or whatever
15:55it is. Just that comfort level of
15:57understanding how that works increases
15:59the risk of having a claim. Plus, I
16:01mean, anytime that a driver gets feels
16:03that the stress or the pressure or the
16:05uncomfort, then they tend to get in a
16:07hurry, which leads to more claims as
16:08well.
16:09>> Probably the same goes for the type of
16:11freight too, I imagine. So, if you're
16:13used to hauling ice cream and you're an
16:15expert at hauling ice cream, which is
16:17probably really complicated to haul
16:19because you have to keep it at a certain
16:21temperature and and all of that, right?
16:23But if you are really consistent and you
16:25know that that's what you haul all the
16:27time, then your insurance company is
16:29going to be more comfortable insuring
16:30you as opposed to someone who sometimes
16:33hauls produce and sometimes hauls uh
16:37electronics and sometimes hauls
16:39clothing.
16:39>> Yeah. And if you if you're switching
16:40between just like you said, it's between
16:42commodities or equipment types. I mean,
16:44there's some people that will haul
16:46drive-in or reefer trailers for part of
16:48the year and then they're going to run
16:49flatbeds for part of the year,
16:50>> right? And there's two totally different
16:52exposure totally different, you know,
16:54ways of driving. Load procurement is
16:56completely different between them.
16:58There's a lot of different factors that
16:59come into play. So, so you're right. I
17:01mean, understanding exactly what it is
17:03that you're that you're hauling. And if
17:04it's a refer then I know I got it, you
17:06know, especially if it's fruits or
17:08vegetables and you know there's there's
17:09checking the temperatures before it gets
17:11loaded during the transit and when it
17:13gets offloaded and then the
17:14documentation that it was within those
17:16temperature ranges. So there's lots of
17:18nuances just in each one of those
17:21segments with tracking.
17:22>> Every time I talk to someone new on this
17:23show, a new complication comes in. So,
17:27in the past, I've talked to people about
17:30how to build a successful trucking
17:31business. And one of the things that
17:33I've heard from a couple of different
17:34people is diversify. Have different
17:36equipment types. Be able to go different
17:38places. Take advantage of the
17:41opportunities. And then other people
17:42will say, "Specialize. You want to
17:44specialize. You want to you want to be
17:46the person that does this in trucking. I
17:49am the person that hauls ice cream from
17:53Florida to I don't know Maine. That's a
17:57really bad example. Don't do that. Don't
17:58look for loads like that. But some
18:01people say specialize, some people say
18:02diversify. It sounds like specializing
18:05might be a better way in terms of
18:09insurance. So if you're worried about
18:12insurance rates going up, specializing
18:14can actually be a way that you might be
18:17able to control some of that cost
18:19>> and especially starting off once once
18:20you have established yourself and then
18:23you want to expand into something else.
18:25So like your example, if if you're
18:27running reeferats, but you have an
18:29opportunity to run flatbed for a certain
18:32customer or a certain time of year and
18:35you can show that that you have you have
18:37the one under control. This is what we
18:38do. We're going to take those same
18:40safety principles, practices, driving
18:42behaviors, expectations that we have in
18:45hauling reefer and now we're just going
18:46to haul flatbed for this commodity.
18:49We're going to deliver certain freight,
18:50we're going to backhaul another freight
18:51because it makes sense. So, I think like
18:53you said, maybe making sure when you
18:55start off to if you can if you can
18:57narrow that scope into what exactly you
18:59do and then you want to diversify down
19:01the road, thus you got a better chance
19:02of doing it there. If you're going to be
19:04a little bit of everything upfront,
19:05you're probably going to be paying more
19:07in insurance because again, it's the
19:08unknowns. And then one thing I meant to
19:11point out earlier is you, we were
19:12talking about the drivers. If you're
19:14starting with a new a new company and
19:16you're a single unit owner operator and
19:18it's just your company, you're the
19:20driver, your driver, everything else.
19:22That is a lot better than a lot of times
19:24people will start off with that and then
19:26they add a second truck and a second
19:27driver. And the cost to add that second
19:29truck and that second driver generally
19:31is a lot more expensive than what
19:33they're paying when they're just the
19:34single unit owner operator. And again,
19:37it's because of the unknown where it's
19:40your company, you're the driver. You
19:42have control of everything. There's a
19:43lot more comfort level from an
19:44underwriting perspective than hiring
19:46that second driver because now you don't
19:48have control over that truck and that
19:50driver and that they're going to make
19:51their own decisions. So the cost per
19:52truck for one generally is not the same
19:55as adding a second truck and a third
19:57truck and a fourth truck until you can
19:58get into, you know, 10 or more trucks
20:00where you become a fleet and they're
20:01going to underwrite the the whole fleet.
20:03>> I see. So there's a little bit of
20:04growing pains there then because most of
20:06the time people aren't going from one
20:08truck to 10 right away, right? Usually
20:10you're kind of like building it up. But
20:12maybe it makes sense then in the
20:14beginning just to start with one one
20:16truck, one driver and then establish a
20:20really good track record and then it'll
20:22be more affordable for you to add other
20:24drivers to that.
20:25>> Yeah. The controlled controlled growth
20:27and then like you said more establish
20:29it, control it and and more of a
20:31long-term plan than then jumping
20:33straight into from one truck to to 30
20:36trucks.
20:37>> What about team drivers? Like having two
20:40drivers in the same truck. Is that a
20:42benefit, a drawback, kind of the same?
20:45>> So, the question that I always get when
20:47it comes to team driving is who's
20:48driving? When one driver is driving and
20:50they're off duty and the other driver's
20:52driving, are they actually going to be
20:54in the sleep or are they actually
20:55getting the rest that they need? Or a
20:57lot of times on team driving, one is
20:59kind of the trainer and one is the
21:01trainee.
21:02>> And then if that's the case, then
21:04whoever the trainer is, when are they
21:06actually getting their their rest while
21:07they're half driving? That one varies a
21:09little bit. So, it kind of depends on
21:10>> Yeah. How would you prove that to an
21:13insurance company? Is it like the
21:15history like both of them should have a
21:16similar amount of experience driving?
21:19>> Yeah, if they have a similar amount of
21:21experience driving, that helps. And then
21:23also just in in general when they go to
21:25rate it, they generally will rate a
21:27tractor trailer or a a vehicle that's
21:29going to be team driven will generally
21:31cost more in insurance than somebody
21:32that is just a solo driver. Again, it's
21:35going to come down to the utilization.
21:36They're going to run more miles and
21:38therefore they're going to be on the
21:40road. there's more risk of them having a
21:41claim because they're running more miles
21:43and on the road more often. So, just
21:45strictly the insurance cost upfront for
21:47team driving is going to be more
21:48expensive than a single unit driver or a
21:52single driver on a tractor trailer.
21:54>> That's interesting because I would think
21:55it would be the opposite because you
21:57have an extra driver there that can take
21:59over. It seems like you would it would
22:01be safer to have another driver in the
22:04vehicle,
22:05>> right? that from the underwriters,
22:06they're going to argue, you know, the
22:07the hours of service or the fact that if
22:09they're if they're compliant with the
22:11hours of service, then they should be
22:12getting their rest time and their time
22:13non-driving or or whatever the record of
22:15duty status is at that point to control
22:17that, you know, driving while they're
22:19fatigued, but obviously fatigue driving
22:21is a huge issue from not just the
22:23trucking just in in general. So again,
22:25the hours again gets back to what we
22:27were talking about earlier with the
22:28compliance and if there's if there's
22:30issues with an hours of service score on
22:32the on somebody's SMS score, then
22:34generally it's going to be red flags and
22:36it's going to cost more in premium going
22:38forward too.
22:38>> So let's say tractor trailer between
22:40maybe 15 and 20,000 a year for a box
22:44truck, how much would it cost? Generally
22:48>> generally on a box truck I would say
22:49probably somewhere maybe in like the
22:52like the 10 to 15,000 range somewhere in
22:54there. So maybe you know 2/3 of of the
22:57cost of a tractor trailer.
22:58>> And then of course with the caveat of
23:00all of these
23:02>> factors that we're talking about
23:04>> all the variables. Yeah.
23:05>> Right. Right. I've even heard people
23:07trying to get insured for a new company
23:09that are seeing like 30 to $33,000
23:13a year. What does someone's profile look
23:16like that gets a quote like that?
23:19>> Some of it is either they have a driving
23:22record that dictates that they don't
23:24have the experience to show that, you
23:27know, that that they have driven the
23:28tractor trailer, that they know what
23:30they're doing, all the kind of stuff
23:31that we talked about earlier where they
23:32can show that they're just going to be
23:34doing it on their own and not driving
23:36for somebody else at this point. And
23:37some of it is beyond their control. Some
23:39of it is just because of where they're
23:41operating at. So, I mean, if I'm a new
23:43venture seal unit owner operator and I'm
23:46again, I'm in Southern California, I'm
23:48going to be paying 30 or $40,000 a year.
23:50If I'm doing that same operation and I'm
23:53in the Midwest or or someplace like that
23:56where there's less traffic and
23:57everything else, there's less chance of
23:59a claim. I mean, that truly could be
24:01half of that cost, a third of that cost.
24:04Okay, let's talk about once I'm
24:06operating and I've been paying my
24:08insurance, I've been paying it on time
24:10and I think that I've been doing pretty
24:11well, but then all of a sudden my
24:13renewal comes around and it's 50%
24:16higher. I've heard a lot of people that
24:19a lot of the carriers that go out of
24:22business is because they just can't
24:24afford the insurance anymore.
24:25>> Correct.
24:26>> And it's not always cash flow. Oh, it's
24:28not I mean it is cash flow because you
24:30can't pay the $40,000 bill, but it's not
24:33the sort of cash flow problems that we
24:35think of monthtomonth. It's more like
24:36these huge surprises that happen. Tell
24:39me about the people that you've worked
24:41with and some of the situations that
24:43you've seen where renewals are just
24:45astronomical and what is the cause
24:47behind that?
24:48>> Yeah, and unfortunately that does
24:50happen. And it seems like happens more
24:51often now than it used to where you get
24:53just huge swings in premium. And I
24:55always try and explain to my clients
24:57like there's two factors that go into
24:59it. There's the factors that you can
25:00control which is all the stuff that
25:02we're talking about. It's the driving
25:03record. It's being safe. It's
25:05controlling your claims. It's
25:07maintaining your vehicles so you don't
25:09have maintenance issues. That kind of
25:10stuff. You can control all of that
25:12stuff. Some of the stuff you can't
25:13control. some of it they you know
25:15whether it's the the base rates the
25:17rates that the insurance company is
25:18going to file for everybody is
25:20increasing right now whether you're good
25:22bad or or indifferent I mean it's it's
25:24going up the the cost of insurance is
25:27going up in general so you can't control
25:29that so you control what you can control
25:30and the cost of the the insurance going
25:32up in general I mean that's because the
25:34cost of equipment is gone up so the
25:36physical damage you know if if a tractor
25:38trailer is total what used to be maybe
25:41like an an $80,000 claim is now a
25:44$140,000 claim or the or the cargo where
25:46it used to be $100,000 was kind of the
25:49standard on the cargo limit that was
25:51required. We're seeing 150 200 250,000
25:55for dry freight reefer commodities stuff
25:58like that. And it's just because again
25:59the cost of goods has gone up. So if
26:01there's a total cargo loss now we have
26:03$150,000 cargo loss. You know, if you're
26:06looking at on the liability side between
26:08nuclear verdicts, just the cost of those
26:11and and the lawsuits that happen on the
26:14liability side, the cost of those claims
26:15has gone up quite a bit over the last
26:17few years. And so, getting back to what
26:19I was first talking about, you you
26:20control what you control. Some of that
26:22stuff, they they can't control that. As
26:24an owner operator, you can't control
26:25what's happening on the industry. So,
26:27you're going to have the the pricing
26:28pressures to increase it because of
26:30what's going on on the macro level. So
26:32all that you can do is control what you
26:34can within your your company and your
26:36operation.
26:37>> What are some of the main mistakes that
26:39you see carriers making that leads to
26:42these higher insurance premiums of
26:44things that they can control?
26:45>> I think one of the biggest things I see
26:47right now is not paying attention to the
26:51complant side of it. So, their SMS
26:54scores with the DOT, all of a sudden
26:56they get into an alert in one or two of
26:58the of the basic categories and that
27:01directly impacts the insurance premiums
27:03that they're paying and significantly.
27:05Right now, the insurance companies are
27:07looking at that closely because they
27:09look at that that as somebody as their
27:12compliance gets worse and they get an
27:13alert or two on their SMS, the cost to
27:16defend them in a claim goes up.
27:18Therefore, the insurance premiums up
27:20front go up for somebody that that has
27:22issues with that. So, I always try to
27:24tell people if you can pay attention to
27:26that and you can control that side of
27:28it, that's going to have a direct impact
27:30on on the insurance premiums that you're
27:32paying.
27:32>> Define some of these acronyms. You've
27:34talked about SMS. I think you were
27:36talking about CSA scores. When you talk
27:37come to basics, explain what all those
27:40things mean really quick.
27:41>> SMS stands for the the safety
27:44maintenance score and it's basically
27:45your roadside inspections. you know, you
27:47get law enforcement roadside inspections
27:49and they're going to check for
27:51compliance with the FMCSA regulations.
27:54CSA is is basically the the program that
27:57the the federal government uses to rate
28:01different carriers and compare them
28:02against each other. And then the
28:03insurance underwriters have access to
28:06that information and they'll pull
28:07reports and they can see what those
28:09scores are for the motor carriers. So,
28:11they can see what the roadside
28:12inspections look like. So you can see
28:14how they score against other motor
28:15carriers that are in similar categories
28:17to what they are.
28:18>> Now that's for CDL vehicles, commercial
28:22vehicles. Does that do those same
28:23principles apply to box truck
28:25operations?
28:26>> If the box truck is running under a DOT
28:28number, then it would be it would be the
28:30same, maybe slightly different because
28:32they don't have the CDL requirement and
28:34stuff like that. But if they're running
28:35under a DOT number, they're still
28:36regulated by the Department of
28:38Transportation.
28:39>> Gotcha. So it's basically the mistake is
28:42not paying attention to those scores
28:43until it's too late.
28:44>> Yep. Exactly. Not not understanding the
28:46impact that those scores have on them.
28:48So like you said, until it's too late
28:50until renewal time comes and there's a
28:52huge increase in premium and that's used
28:54as the justification for the increase in
28:55premium,
28:56>> right? Even though the increase in
28:57premium may have come from a bunch of
28:59other things as well, it's sort of
29:01that's what the insurance company can
29:03site as something that is under your
29:04control that okay, now this is the
29:06reason why this is going.
29:07>> Correct. Exactly. And that goes the
29:09other way too. So, if everything looks
29:10good on your compliance side of
29:12everything, your driving record looks
29:14good, your your DOT scores look good,
29:16everything looks good, actually gives
29:17you some argument going back against an
29:19insurance company that's trying to get a
29:21huge rate increase and say, "Look, this
29:23is this is a good a good risk for you as
29:25an underwriter. The equipment is good,
29:27the driver is good, we have a history,
29:29compliance is roadside compliance is
29:31good, and we can stack all of these, you
29:34know, st all these facts on why they're
29:36a good risk and go back and push against
29:38underwriters to to try and soften that
29:41increase if it's if it's presented at
29:43renewal time.
29:44>> Okay, so this is something new that I am
29:48just learning that there is actually
29:49some kind of recourse for when you get a
29:52renewal price and it's really high.
29:55there is some negotiation that can
29:57happen between the carrier and that the
29:59broker can help to facilitate. Is that
30:01what I'm correct understanding
30:02>> depending on on depending on who the
30:04carrier is. So some of them it's it's
30:06strictly just a a rating module and I
30:08don't deal with me as the broker. I
30:10don't deal with an underwriter. It's
30:11just the information goes in and it
30:13spits out a number coming back out.
30:15Other companies I deal directly with an
30:17underwriter and say and I can have those
30:19conversations just like we talked about.
30:20You know this is what it looks like on
30:22paper. This is all the benefits. you
30:24know, these are all all of the good
30:25things that this motor carrier is doing.
30:26This is why they don't deserve the same
30:28rate that trucking company ABC does
30:31because they're unsafe. Look at, you
30:33know, this is all the all the
30:34information on them and why they're
30:35unsafe. This company is is safe and they
30:38deserve a better rate.
30:39>> Is that kind of negotiation is that even
30:42possible for someone with a really small
30:44fleet or just one truck or is that more
30:47for larger fleets? Really?
30:48>> No, that's even Yeah, even on the one
30:50truck. I mean, your scales may not be
30:52the same, you know, because you're
30:54you're looking at premiums for for the
30:55one truck, but it doesn't it doesn't
30:57change from from the cost for the one
30:59truck for the versus the cost for 200
31:01trucks. I mean, it's still an expense
31:03per per truck that you're still trying
31:04to control and and remain profitable.
31:07But as a as a single unit owner
31:08operator, absolutely, it's the same
31:10conversations that you can have. The
31:11benefit of working with an insurance
31:13broker that truly understands what the
31:15compliance is and how that how that
31:17directly impacts the rates. If if it's
31:19an insurance broker that doesn't really
31:21do any kind of trucking, then they may
31:22not understand what that what those
31:25scores mean and then how they relate to
31:26the to the premiums that are charged.
31:28>> Would you recommend that people every
31:30time that they get a renewal or they're
31:33getting insurance for the first time,
31:35how many different quotes and different
31:37companies should I be getting quotes
31:39from?
31:39>> A good question. So to start off with, I
31:41would probably get I would at least get
31:43a few to just to see to compare compare
31:46premiums, compare coverages because
31:48there is a discrepancy. There's a big
31:50there's a wide range on both premiums
31:52and coverages. I mean, something may
31:54look good on paper. You're like, "Oh,
31:55this this quote is, you know, x amount
31:58of dollars less in premium. I want to go
32:00with this one." Not understanding that
32:02it's that much cheaper because they're
32:04not giving you the coverages that you
32:05need. So, especially up front, I think
32:07getting a few a few different options, a
32:10few different quotes to look at is
32:11important. As you become established, if
32:14you are getting the coverages that you
32:16need and you're with a good good
32:17carrier, shopping it every year is not
32:19to your advantage because underwriters
32:21see the same account every year and they
32:23know that they're just going to shop it.
32:24You're not necessarily going to get
32:25their best look or their best pricing if
32:27they see the account every year. So I
32:29usually unless there's a reason why
32:31whether it's a significant increase or
32:33reduce reduction in coverage something
32:35like that that trigger it I don't think
32:36it makes sense to shop it every year if
32:38you're happy with what you have.
32:40>> So it's not really to my benefit to shop
32:44around and try to get a lower rate just
32:46just because I think I might be able to
32:48get a lower rate.
32:49>> Not necessarily. I mean, generally
32:51that's not necessarily to your benefit,
32:53but if you I mean, because there are
32:56some companies that are that would be
32:58maybe not as preferred as some of the
32:59other truck insurance companies. So, if
33:01I'm if one of those lower tier companies
33:04and I'm paying more in premium and
33:06absolutely when it comes up for renewal,
33:07I would I would absolutely shop that and
33:10see if I can get to one of the better
33:12companies that offers better better
33:13pricing, better coverage, better
33:15service, all of that in in the package.
33:17is more value for the premium that
33:19you're paying
33:19>> because some insurance companies won't
33:22insure new ventures, right? And they'll
33:24only insure people with experience. So
33:26once you hit that, what is that marker?
33:29Is it just the first year? Is it first
33:31five years? Like when I first start my
33:34business and get insured, what's the
33:36milestone when I should look for new
33:38insurance?
33:39>> Yeah. I mean, you usually they want to
33:40see two years, at least two years in
33:42business. But it doesn't hurt if if I
33:43made it through the first year and and I
33:45can show that and I feel like my
33:47premiums are are really high and I can
33:49improve it. I would I would look at the
33:50first after the first year and
33:52absolutely see what else is out there in
33:54the market. But generally speaking, it's
33:56two to three years. They want to see you
33:57in business for two to three years
33:58because then they can look a loss
33:59history. The prior years with the other
34:01insurance company and they can see that
34:03they can look at your driving record and
34:04everything we talked about earlier, but
34:06they can also see the loss history at
34:07that point, too. How are insurance
34:10requirements, plans, coverages changing
34:13in 2025 and what are you expecting
34:16things to do in 2026?
34:19>> I don't think it's going to be much
34:20different in 2026 than what it is
34:23currently. Um, I think the biggest thing
34:25that that I'm seeing is the increase in
34:28in cargo limits required again because
34:31the cost of goods has gone up. I'm
34:32seeing more and more you used to be able
34:34to get to haul use 100,000 of cargo.
34:36know is the limit that you need and you
34:38could for just about everybody there
34:40seeing more and more the requiring above
34:41the the hundred thousand on the cargo.
34:43So seeing that a little bit and then
34:45also on the even on the liability side,
34:47you know, the million dollars was kind
34:49of the industry standard for a long
34:51time. And I'm seeing more and more
34:53non-hazmat non-specialized companies,
34:56whether it's the brokers or the shippers
34:57requiring more than than just the
34:59million dollars of limits. And again,
35:01that's because there's more claims that
35:03go above the million. And so they're
35:05requiring it the trucking companies to
35:06carry higher limits. It protects them
35:08more if the trucking company's carrying
35:10the higher levels. Sometimes I think
35:12they just pull these numbers out of thin
35:14air because $1 million for liability and
35:18then $100,000 for cargo. It just sounds
35:21too perfect. Like why do you need
35:23$100,000 and not $102,000?
35:27>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Nice. The nice
35:29round numbers,
35:30>> right? They seem sort of absurd. Like
35:33where where do those numbers come from?
35:35>> I think it's just because it's an easy
35:38industry standard. So their their goods
35:41so so we talk about the cargo their
35:43goods may only be worth 80,000 usually
35:47but they say well what if we throw if if
35:50it's a load that's that's more than
35:5180,000. So try to set that limit for
35:53each individual load
35:54>> like a little bit higher.
35:56>> Yeah. So they'll set that standard at
35:57like 100,000 because they know that that
35:59their product is always going to be
36:01under 100,000. It may be 90,000
36:03sometimes. It may be 10,000 sometimes
36:05but they know that it's not going to be
36:07100 or over 100. So then they can use
36:09that as kind of the threshold on there.
36:11>> If a small carrier has a claim on their
36:16insurance, what can they do to either
36:20get it removed or like what kind of
36:23recourse do I have if a broker or a
36:26shipper puts a claim on on one of my
36:29loads?
36:30>> So if if the claim sometimes claims come
36:32in and you are not not at fault on the
36:34claim, something happened that was
36:35beyond your control that the claim got
36:37filed. So, making sure to communicate to
36:40again to the underwriter and to the
36:42insurance company that it was a not at
36:43fault claim. Some insurance companies
36:45will actually help you try to subregate
36:48or go back against the at fault party on
36:50that. I see this a lot of times on
36:52physical damage because maybe there's a
36:55private passenger vehicle that doesn't
36:56have insurance, has state minimum
36:58insurance, not enough insurance to cover
37:00the cost, and they they do damage to the
37:03truck and the trailer. Um, but they
37:05don't have, like I said, either either
37:06they don't have insurance, so they don't
37:08have enough insurance to cover that. So
37:09then the trucking company has to turn
37:11around and file a claim against their
37:12own insurance policy for the physical
37:15damage to get their equipment repaired.
37:16>> So, but that matters, right? Whether
37:18you're at fault or not, that's going to
37:20matter then when it comes to renewal and
37:22>> correct
37:23>> and getting your new premiums. If you
37:24weren't at fault, it won't count against
37:26you as much. And then if you were at
37:28fault, it will. So generally when you're
37:30looking at just just the numbers the
37:32numbers they're going to look at it the
37:34same whether it was at fault or not at
37:35fault they're going to look at it the
37:36same. So again that's working
37:38>> because it's risk exposure regardless.
37:40>> Correct. Yep. Yep. I mean just the just
37:42the pure math of it of premium in and
37:44and claims going out. But again working
37:47with
37:49your broker and making sure that they're
37:50communicating that to the underwriter
37:52saying you know yes there's this claim
37:54on there but here's the situation. This
37:56was a wrongway accident. The other
37:57person didn't have insurance. it was
37:59beyond the control of this trucking
38:01company ABC that you're insuring. Yes,
38:03there was a claim, but this this these
38:05are the circumstances on it. So
38:06hopefully they don't penalize them as
38:08much as they would on just an at fault
38:10claim.
38:10>> Can you tell me about a recent situation
38:14with a claim that was really interesting
38:17or educational for you? Like what's a
38:22recent claim that really stuck out to
38:24you? So, I had a a claim with a a client
38:27and they were going they were going
38:29through and it was a green light for
38:31them, a red light for the cross traffic
38:33and they were going through the
38:34intersection on a green light. The other
38:36car ran the red light and actually the
38:39other driver was intoxicated and and all
38:41kinds of stuff and didn't have insurance
38:43and they had a dash cam and you can see
38:44this other this other truck go through
38:47around the other traffic in the
38:48intersection and and my client actually
38:51t-boned them in the intersection. The
38:52sad thing was because of where it
38:55happened, it was uh comparative
38:57negligence states. They basically said
38:59my client was going and I forget what
39:01the number was exactly, six over the
39:03speed limit or something like that just
39:05with the flow of traffic, but because
39:07they argued that because they were going
39:08six over the speed limit, if they were
39:10going the speed limit at that time, they
39:12would have been in the intersection at
39:13the same time that that guy ran the red
39:15light. And they ended up paying part of
39:17the claim themselves, even though they
39:18did nothing wrong other than go with the
39:20flow of traffic. Wow. And this is truck
39:24truck truck and truck.
39:25>> Uh, it was a it was a pickup truck and a
39:28tractor trailer.
39:30>> Okay. And the tractor trailer was your
39:31client, I assume.
39:32>> Correct. Correct. Yep. Yep. Tractor
39:34trailer is my my client. And then, you
39:36know, talked a little bit about the dash
39:38cams there. There. I've had several
39:40claims where the dash cams have
39:42exonerated my clients
39:44>> because the other person tries to say,
39:46"Oh, you know, they were at fault
39:48because they did this or this." And then
39:50but the dash cam shows something
39:52different. The dash cam is black and
39:53white and it gives the insurance company
39:55the ability to deny the claim where
39:57before if this was 10 years ago, 15
40:00years ago, they even if the trucking
40:02company was not at fault in it,
40:05>> they feel like they would have they
40:06would have paid a certain amount just to
40:08try and defend the trucking company and
40:10they and they would have probably
40:11settled that claim for a little bit of
40:13money. Now with a dash cam, they can
40:14deny it up front. I know a lot of people
40:17don't like all of the dash cam and being
40:20recorded all the time, but boy, it
40:23really sounds like this is a huge
40:26benefit of that technology.
40:28>> Yes. Yes. And I know and it seems in in
40:32my perspective, in my conversations, it
40:34seems like the the dash cam stance is
40:36kind of softening a little bit where
40:38before a lot of people were like, I'm
40:39not putting a cam camera on my truck.
40:41I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it.
40:42where it truly is most of the time is
40:45for their own protection. You know, if
40:47they're work if they're a driver working
40:48for a company that has multiple trucks,
40:50there's not one there has to be an event
40:52that trigger the recording of the
40:54camera. There's not people that are
40:56sitting there watching the camera and
40:57paying attention all the time on that.
40:59And then the other thing is, you know,
41:01the cameras could be either forward
41:02facing or driver and forward facing,
41:05too. So, if they're not comfortable with
41:07the driver facing camera, at least
41:08putting the forward facing cameras in
41:10there is a start. Is there anything
41:12else? Any other advice or situation or
41:17concept that we haven't covered yet that
41:19you would really like to share?
41:20>> The only thing that I would like to to
41:22mention is a lot of times insurance is
41:25the the necessary evil. You know, you
41:27have to have insurance to run. It's
41:29expensive and people don't really like
41:31dealing with it until something happens.
41:33So understanding that, making sure that
41:35as the year goes along, if there's
41:36claims, especially if you're multiple
41:38trucks and that kind of stuff, at least
41:39pull a mrons and understanding what your
41:41losses look like during the year, not
41:43waiting until renewal time where you get
41:44surprised where there's a a claim that's
41:47open for 50,000 has a $50,000 reserve on
41:50something that you weren't at fault on
41:52that should have been closed out, you
41:53know, months ago. So trying to stay on
41:56top of that stuff throughout the year
41:57and not waiting until renewal time. and
41:59it goes. So that's the claims and it's
42:01also the the the DOT compliance saying
42:04on top of that making sure that you're
42:06not waiting until the last minute and
42:07it's too late on there at that point.
42:08>> We have so many related videos that
42:11we've done with compliance experts that
42:13say the same thing. You have to keep on
42:16top of that information otherwise it's
42:19going to come back to bite you and it's
42:20going to surprise you
42:21>> and it's and it's too late then at that
42:23point a lot of times if you're not
42:24staying on top of it it's too late. You
42:26know, even on the the compliance side, I
42:28I have people that that something that
42:30will show up on their DOT number that
42:32wasn't it wasn't their driver, their
42:34truck, and it's just because a number
42:36got transposed when it was put into the
42:38system. So, just being aware of what's
42:40of what's going on there is important,
42:42>> right? Even if you are even the perfect
42:44driver, the perfect company still has to
42:47keep an eye on it because mistakes can
42:49be made and you only have so much time
42:51to go back and challenge
42:54>> correct
42:54>> those entries. Yep. Exactly right. Yep.
42:57There's a there's a window to data cue
42:59to get those off of there. And and if
43:01you're if you're a small company and
43:03you're a well-run company, it's not
43:05going to take you that long to look at
43:06it because you're not going to have that
43:08many inspections to see. I mean, if you
43:09have one that shows up on there that's
43:11not yours, it's going to stand out right
43:12away and then you can address it and and
43:15move on instead of trying to deal with
43:16it's going to cost you more time trying
43:18to deal with it eight months down the
43:19road.
43:20>> Honestly, just the fact of not keeping
43:22up with something like that is already a
43:24sign, right? that that you might not
43:26know everything that you need to be
43:27doing to run that business. So, correct.
43:29It's just another thing on that weekly,
43:31monthly checklist of things to run your
43:34business smoothly is checking that off
43:37and making sure that you're monitoring
43:38every factor that plays into the safety
43:41and financial sustainability of your
43:44business.
43:44>> Like you said, it's it's a it's a lot. I
43:46mean, because as a small business owner,
43:48they wear a lot of hats. And it it may
43:51be a driver, it may be a dispatcher, it
43:53may be sales, it may be maintenance. I
43:55mean, there's a lot of a lot of things
43:57that go into what they have to do to to
43:59run a trucking their own trucking
44:01company. But it it really doesn't take
44:03that much time, and it it could be
44:04important to stay on top of that
44:06throughout the year.
44:06>> Right. Simple does not always mean easy.
44:09>> Correct.
44:10>> It's pretty simple to put it on a
44:11checklist. It's harder to check 52 weeks
44:15out of the year.
44:16>> Correct. Yep.
44:17>> Every every single week.
44:18>> Definitely. Matt, thank you so much for
44:21joining us. I know I learned a ton. This
44:24was packed full of really good
44:26information. We will leave links to
44:29other related videos in the description
44:31as well as a subscription link to our
44:35newsletter that we are now making
44:37available to subscribers for free that
44:40gets you all of our latest episodes,
44:43plus information on freight market data,
44:47where you should be hauling, where what
44:50regions you should be focusing on for
44:52those three equipment types, reefer,
44:55flatbed, and dry van. Matt, again, thank
44:58you so much for spending your time with
45:01us. And if you have questions for Matt,
45:05leave them in the comments because we
45:06will get them back to Matt and get
45:08answers from him and respond to those
45:11comments as soon as we can.
45:12>> Sounds good. Thank you, Caroline. I
45:14appreciate it. I I enjoy talking about
45:15the the industry. I can go on and on, so
45:18I appreciate the opportunity.

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