How SideShift Built the World's Biggest UGC Marketplace | The Cap Table Ep. 27 🧢 w/ SideShift — Transcript

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1. 0:00Um, so, like, I could be dead in 5
2. 0:01years. I have no idea.
3. 0:04I really have no idea though.
4. 0:05>> Everything's a possibility, I guess.
5. 0:07>> [laughter]
6. 0:08>> Nah, bro. Try and try and look at the
7. 0:09brighter side.
8. 0:10>> Welcome to the Cat Table again in New
9. 0:12York.
10. 0:12>> Yes, sir.
11. 0:14>> If you don't know what the Cat Table is,
12. 0:15the Cat Table is your twice a week
13. 0:17update on everything tech related and
14. 0:18startups and everything in that good
15. 0:20nature. Because, you know, the thing is,
16. 0:22Jaden and I, and Ishaan as well, he has
17. 0:24more pedigree than us cuz he's Indian.
18. 0:26But, [laughter]
19. 0:28the thing is, we need to bring on people
20. 0:30that that know more about the space than
21. 0:31we do,
22. 0:32>> [laughter]
23. 0:32>> right? And just like are just better
24. 0:33than us.
25. 0:34>> You're literally Chinese, bro. Like,
26. 0:35what are you talking about?
27. 0:36>> Woah. I'm trying to do the intro here.
28. 0:37>> My bad.
29. 0:38>> [laughter]
30. 0:38>> Woah. So, we have on today, while the
31. 0:40Cat Table is in New York, we have on
32. 0:41SideShift.
33. 0:42>> YES, SIR.
34. 0:44>> I'M SO EXCITED. YES. OKAY.
35. 0:46>> So excited.
36. 0:47>> [laughter]
37. 0:47>> Happy to be here.
38. 0:48>> I know. You twist my arm, right?
39. 0:50>> Twist my arm.
40. 0:51>> May- maybe since, you know, I I think
41. 0:53some of the audience might know what
42. 0:54SideShift is, but some of the audience
43. 0:55doesn't, I know. Eric and Ishaan
44. 0:57probably I'll lob to Ishaan here. Is it
45. 0:59Is it UGC
46. 1:01mogul, perhaps? We could do on the talk
47. 1:03a little bit about what SideShift is.
48. 1:05>> Yeah, SideShift is your two-go UGC
49. 1:07platform. Uh like, cut me off if I'm
50. 1:09missing anything, but essentially
51. 1:11>> go-to UGC platform?
52. 1:12>> It's the number one It's the number one
53. 1:13UGC platform.
54. 1:14>> It's the only one I know.
55. 1:15>> It's the only one that I know. It's the
56. 1:16only one.
57. 1:17>> It's the only one. There's no other
58. 1:18ones.
59. 1:18>> As a UGC or as a company, you can like
60. 1:20post an application. You can get a lot
61. 1:22of jobs listing. You can
62. 1:24post a job listing, have a lot of
63. 1:25applications. You can do your entire
64. 1:27analytics on it, as well as payouts.
65. 1:30Anything else that I'm missing?
66. 1:31>> Yeah, I mean,
67. 1:33maybe I I could give a little better
68. 1:34intro.
69. 1:36>> [laughter]
70. 1:37>> You know, how about we first of all,
71. 1:38like, what are y'all's names?
72. 1:39>> Oh, yeah.
73. 1:40>> I'm Nick.
74. 1:40>> This is Oliver.
75. 1:41>> I'm Oliver, yeah.
76. 1:42>> I'm a co-founder. Oliver's head of
77. 1:44growth, founding founding team.
78. 1:46>> There we go.
79. 1:47>> And uh yeah, we've been kicking on this
80. 1:48for like 2 years. So, basically
81. 1:50>> So, what what is SideShift from a
82. 1:51founder's perspective?
83. 1:53>> The world I mean, like, bro, you hit me
84. 1:54with the two-go and
85. 1:56backpedal from there. It's the uh
86. 1:58world's largest UGC platform. We connect
87. 2:01over 900,000 creators with over a
88. 2:03thousand different brands ranging from
89. 2:05consumer apps to B2B to entertainment
90. 2:08and kind of everything in between.
91. 2:09>> Mhm.
92. 2:10>> Like you said, it's full stack. You can
93. 2:12essentially match with creators. You can
94. 2:15run analytics. You can track payments.
95. 2:17Uh you can handle all the legal tax,
96. 2:191099s. Everything directly in one
97. 2:22platform to launch your UGC campaigns.
98. 2:25>> Yeah. I mean I was just say
99. 2:27>> That's tough.
100. 2:27>> Yeah. I was just going to say for
101. 2:28context like I literally started a
102. 2:30campaign. I was talking to Oliver about
103. 2:31it maybe a month ago and we already got
104. 2:33like 3,000 or 3,500 applicants within a
105. 2:35month. So
106. 2:36>> Pretty good.
107. 2:37>> You guys have a really large huh?
108. 2:39>> Do you Do you hire any yet?
109. 2:40>> Of course. Come on. Let's go. I think we
110. 2:42hired like well I'm very selective but
111. 2:44over like 150. So
112. 2:45>> Nice.
113. 2:45>> Yeah, yeah.
114. 2:46>> That's a big program, man.
115. 2:47>> That's a big program. That's a big
116. 2:48program.
117. 2:48>> Yeah.
118. 2:49>> There's also a lot of opportunities for
119. 2:50agencies. So if like people are like
120. 2:53running campaigns and want to actually
121. 2:54form a real agency like we give you guys
122. 2:56big opportunity to find like brands in
123. 2:58the platform. So like we have a big
124. 2:59inbound. A lot of brands are interested
125. 3:01in UGC right now so we can connect them
126. 3:02like super easily with agencies so they
127. 3:05can like run their full campaign.
128. 3:07>> No, I mean yeah. I mean besides if like
129. 3:09you know it's it's coming at a good
130. 3:10time, right? As like the rise in UGC.
131. 3:12>> Right, right.
132. 3:13>> consumer apps that um you know started
133. 3:15doing very well and some also like SAS
134. 3:17products as well.
135. 3:18>> Mhm.
136. 3:18>> So I mean it started two years ago. What
137. 3:20was that moment where you looked at UGC
138. 3:21and you were like ah we needed to build
139. 3:23something for this. [laughter]
140. 3:24>> to be something huge, [clears throat]
141. 3:25right? Because UGC isn't what it was two
142. 3:27years ago.
143. 3:28>> No, you're you're you're 100% right.
144. 3:29That kind of goes into the intro like
145. 3:31origin story a little bit.
146. 3:32>> It's a long story.
147. 3:33>> It's a little bit of a long story. I'll
148. 3:34try to make a long story short.
149. 3:36Essentially we were like hacking on
150. 3:37another idea. It was a labor
151. 3:39marketplace.
152. 3:40It was essentially connecting like
153. 3:42students across different college
154. 3:43campuses with local bars and
155. 3:44restaurants.
156. 3:46And we scaled this thing up to like 25
157. 3:48different campuses and like 10,000 like
158. 3:50students.
159. 3:51>> Mhm.
160. 3:52effectively like what ended up happening
161. 3:53is we started to go viral on tech
162. 3:55Twitter.
163. 3:56>> Huh.
164. 3:56>> Honestly like shout out like PlayKid,
165. 3:57Julia Pintar. She She gave us some some
166. 4:00love and was like, "SideShift is the
167. 4:01best platform to source UGC creators.
168. 4:03There's a ton of college students."
169. 4:05>> Mhm.
170. 4:05>> And as soon as like she started like
171. 4:06firing out these like tweets, our
172. 4:08inbound funnel just started going crazy.
173. 4:10Like people were self-serve signing up
174. 4:12for the first time ever instead of
175. 4:13saying
176. 4:13>> Oliver
177. 4:14>> knocking on like local local bar and
178. 4:16restaurant doors. And
179. 4:19ever since then like we saw the power of
180. 4:21UGC. We started doing it ourselves. And
181. 4:24then we're like we got to just go full
182. 4:25bore into the creator economy. This is
183. 4:27going to be huge. And here we are today.
184. 4:29>> And that that was like only a year ago.
185. 4:30Like a year ago we made like the full
186. 4:32pivot in like like mid-May slash like
187. 4:35early June.
188. 4:36>> Yeah.
189. 4:36>> But before that like the business was
190. 4:37completely different. Like we were doing
191. 4:39like legitimate local job hiring like
192. 4:41>> Wow.
193. 4:42>> Like I don't know if you guys went to
194. 4:43like big colleges, but we went to
195. 4:44Wisconsin like Big Ten campus. And
196. 4:46>> Yeah.
197. 4:46>> most of the businesses there are like
198. 4:48like bars, restaurants, like coffee
199. 4:49shops,
200. 4:50>> Mhm.
201. 4:50>> whatever. They hire like the students on
202. 4:52campus. So like we're like, "Oh, this is
203. 4:53a brilliant idea. Like those businesses
204. 4:55will hire like students at Wisconsin and
205. 4:56then we'll like get paid from the
206. 4:58businesses." But like
207. 4:59>> Right.
208. 4:59>> those businesses did not want to pay
209. 5:01>> Right.
210. 5:01>> anything. They're also
211. 5:02>> very price sensitive.
212. 5:03>> Price sensitive local businesses are
213. 5:05just like hard to work with. Like
214. 5:06>> Also like their margins are already
215. 5:07thin.
216. 5:07>> Yeah.
217. 5:08>> Razor thin already. And it's like if you
218. 5:09can sell to those people and we did get
219. 5:11some good sales, you know. I think at
220. 5:12our peak we're doing like 1K MRR.
221. 5:15>> There you go.
222. 5:16>> After like
223. 5:17>> [laughter]
224. 5:17>> After like six months. But um
225. 5:19>> Yeah.
226. 5:20>> No, we survived long enough to realize
227. 5:22that there was another market that we
228. 5:23could build into.
229. 5:24>> Yeah. I mean that's something people
230. 5:25don't realize as well as the fact that
231. 5:26you just got to keep building.
232. 5:28>> Yeah.
233. 5:28>> Yeah. You got to keep iterating as well.
234. 5:29>> Yeah. Pivoting is okay, man.
235. 5:31>> Yeah. I mean I feel like a lot of the
236. 5:32companies we talk to and a lot of the
237. 5:33startup founders we talk to
238. 5:34>> Everyone benefits.
239. 5:34>> Yeah. The best companies came were born
240. 5:36on a pivot, man.
241. 5:37>> See where the market is.
242. 5:38>> Slack.
243. 5:38>> Yeah.
244. 5:39>> Twitter.
245. 5:40>> Twitter now?
246. 5:40>> Instagram.
247. 5:41>> Ideas don't come out fully formed.
248. 5:43>> Exactly. Yeah. You know, they come out a
249. 5:44little bit deformed met her
250. 5:45>> Exactly.
251. 5:46>> [laughter]
252. 5:47>> And then you nurture it in the real
253. 5:48world.
254. 5:49>> That's right, bro. It's just like
255. 5:50content. You got to keep iterating.
256. 5:52>> Talk to us about yourselves. I'm
257. 5:53curious. So, so one by one,
258. 5:55>> [laughter]
259. 5:55>> give me your your full story if you can.
260. 5:58>> Yeah. And how did you guys meet and then
261. 6:00like how did you guys even come up with
262. 6:01like even the first iteration? When did
263. 6:02you guys decide to
264. 6:05>> Oh gosh. All right, I guess we got to go
265. 6:07way back. I'm originally from Edina,
266. 6:09Minnesota. Right outside the Twin
267. 6:11Cities.
268. 6:12And effectively, I grew up playing
269. 6:14hockey.
270. 6:15Always had interest interest in
271. 6:17entrepreneurship. My mom's an
272. 6:18entrepreneur. Shout out mom.
273. 6:21Ended up going to the University of
274. 6:22Wisconsin-Madison. When I was there, you
275. 6:25know, like most kids I wanted to join a
276. 6:27frat. Ended up joining a fraternity
277. 6:29called Phi Gamma Delta.
278. 6:31>> Oh.
279. 6:33>> Shout shout out to the boys. [laughter]
280. 6:35I ended up joining fall of my like
281. 6:38freshman year. And
282. 6:40essentially, I met my two other
283. 6:42co-founders in my PC. We all loved
284. 6:46entrepreneurship. We all loved like
285. 6:47hacking on things. We had served on some
286. 6:49like executive boards together. And I
287. 6:52guess like senior year is when we really
288. 6:54started to think about like what would
289. 6:57life be like if we didn't go into
290. 6:59corporate and we started our own thing.
291. 7:02Even though that thing didn't work for
292. 7:04the first year, like we had a great time
293. 7:06building it.
294. 7:08>> So, the thought was always
295. 7:09entrepreneurship.
296. 7:09>> The thought was always entrepreneurship.
297. 7:11I mean, I had worked in New York. I was
298. 7:12in private equity real estate. I was an
299. 7:14intern.
300. 7:15>> So, like I don't really know what that
301. 7:16is.
302. 7:17>> You know, I mean I was just like
303. 7:18underwriting
304. 7:20essentially these like class A
305. 7:21multi-family deals all day and I was
306. 7:23like, "Ah, I don't know if this is
307. 7:24really what I want to do forever." It's
308. 7:26what a lot of my friends were doing. I
309. 7:27just wanted to take a little bit of a
310. 7:28larger risk. And
311. 7:31yeah, my co-founder Kenny and I, we we
312. 7:33hacked away for 6 months. Then our third
313. 7:35co-founder joined, Drew.
314. 7:37>> Tell me about the first idea, the barter
315. 7:39system.
316. 7:40>> The barter system.
317. 7:40>> What is that?
318. 7:41>> We're taking it back to Mesopotamia.
319. 7:43>> [laughter]
320. 7:43>> I mean like honestly, bro. Like we uh
321. 7:46sat up sitting in my apartment like
322. 7:47senior year with Canyon.
323. 7:50And we're like we got to come up with
324. 7:51something. Like this is step one of like
325. 7:52building a company. And I know
326. 7:54everyone's like "Oh, you got to build a
327. 7:55company like out of like a real like
328. 7:57pain point. Like it's got to be like
329. 7:59something you wake up every day and like
330. 8:00be so determined to solve." And like
331. 8:02honestly, we just wanted to start a
332. 8:04company cuz we like like to build
333. 8:05things. And I honestly think that's fine
334. 8:07answer, too.
335. 8:08And we're like sitting there like
336. 8:09jamming on ideas. And one of the ideas
337. 8:11we like came up we we came up with was
338. 8:13like we were going to replace Venmo. And
339. 8:16we were going to bring back the barter
340. 8:17system. [laughter]
341. 8:19So like essentially like you you'd be at
342. 8:21the bar and your boy would like buy you
343. 8:22a like a $2 drink. And instead of like
344. 8:24giving him $2, you would give him like
345. 8:26your hat or like
346. 8:28like something like I don't know. Like
347. 8:29something your $15 hat.
348. 8:32>> [laughter]
349. 8:32>> Yeah.
350. 8:33Yeah, at one point it was like an NFL
351. 8:35gift card for like a like a Chipotle
352. 8:37bowl. And then we were like, "Yeah,
353. 8:38these two just like don't match up in
354. 8:40economic value."
355. 8:41>> So was it like was it like a software?
356. 8:42Like how did it work?
357. 8:43>> Yeah, I don't think you got that far.
358. 8:44>> Oh, this is just like conversation.
359. 8:46Yeah.
360. 8:46>> I mean this was this was like we were
361. 8:47like drawing out like wire frames on a
362. 8:49whiteboard. And we were like, "Wait,
363. 8:50wait, this is stupid.
364. 8:52Do something else." [clears throat]
365. 8:53Um but yeah, I think like I should
366. 8:56probably weave in how I met Oliver.
367. 8:57Oliver joined our fraternity second
368. 9:00semester. He was a spring bid. And uh
369. 9:06Uh
370. 9:07like
371. 9:09>> [laughter]
372. 9:11>> You know what's funny? On the walk over
373. 9:13here, I I just assumed. I was like, "Yo,
374. 9:14Ishaan, I feel like they're just like
375. 9:16frat bros."
376. 9:16>> And I was like, "No, I don't think so."
377. 9:18>> [laughter]
378. 9:19>> I I think I think I think I said
379. 9:20yesterday I was like, "I think they're
380. 9:21just two frat guys."
381. 9:21>> Yeah, low-key.
382. 9:22>> Yeah, and it's a part like a vital part
383. 9:24of the origin story.
384. 9:25>> I mean it is, bro. That's like how we
385. 9:27all met each other. That's how we became
386. 9:28friends.
387. 9:28>> I mean like the the whole founding team
388. 9:30had like some executive position at
389. 9:33at our frat. Like he was like secretary.
390. 9:36Yeah.
391. 9:38>> DJ it was like DJ I was like secretary.
392. 9:40chairs he was like Rex Zach
393. 9:43Rush chair Canyon was like
394. 9:45if you're not getting with a brother or
395. 9:47if you're not a brother
396. 9:48get the [ __ ] out of here.
397. 9:51>> [laughter]
398. 9:52>> Are you guys in frats?
399. 9:53>> No no I went to USC for like a semester.
400. 9:57>> It's not really like that honestly
401. 9:58that's just like
402. 9:59>> Some of the USC guys were very
403. 10:01>> [laughter]
404. 10:02>> We were pretty chill we were like
405. 10:04>> I remember at Berkeley they
406. 10:05>> They were like that too.
407. 10:05>> They were like that at my school too at
408. 10:07my school
409. 10:07>> Yeah that's just like OD to be like
410. 10:09that. Most I think that's actually like
411. 10:10a stigma. Most like frat guys are
412. 10:12actually pretty
413. 10:14>> Yeah it is it is wholesome.
414. 10:16>> Yeah a lot of smart guys there.
415. 10:18>> Also we haven't talked about Oliver.
416. 10:20Oliver please introduce yourself.
417. 10:21>> Okay guys I'm Oliver. Thanks for having
418. 10:23me. I appreciate it. Um originally from
419. 10:26Chicago so also a mid Midwest guy like
420. 10:28Nick. And
421. 10:30Oh
422. 10:31where do I start?
423. 10:32>> have a bone over that being from the
424. 10:33Midwest?
425. 10:34>> No not really.
426. 10:34>> Minnesota's like kind of weird like I'm
427. 10:37>> Chicago Chicago's most like mid-tier
428. 10:39city.
429. 10:39>> [laughter]
430. 10:40>> Chicago doesn't even know about Chicago.
431. 10:42>> Dude like compared to New York and LA
432. 10:44>> Okay okay.
433. 10:45>> You want to hear Derrick Rose and he's
434. 10:46like a New York knicks fan.
435. 10:47>> I'm a Derrick Rose fan bro.
436. 10:48>> New York is pretty good. We've been here
437. 10:49for like
438. 10:50>> I mean New York is sweet but like
439. 10:51Chicago's like one of the most beautiful
440. 10:52major cities.
441. 10:53>> it's nicer there the city planning is
442. 10:54amazing.
443. 10:56>> Yeah I'mma take Minneapolis over
444. 10:57Chicago.
445. 10:57>> Stop. You've never actually been to
446. 10:59Chicago.
447. 11:02>> Um no no from Chicago. Honestly like
448. 11:04I've been kind of like a a hustler my
449. 11:06entire life in some like fashion. I
450. 11:09don't think I was like the best like I
451. 11:10was never like the best at school. I
452. 11:11think I was like not like super
453. 11:13academically inclined.
454. 11:14>> History major.
455. 11:15>> Yeah yeah I skated my way through
456. 11:16through Madison. I'm like kind of I
457. 11:18guess I'm like somewhat smart but I I
458. 11:20definitely like had more passion more
459. 11:22interest in like making money and like
460. 11:23selling things. Like honestly that was
461. 11:25always kind of an interest of mine. I do
462. 11:26most of our sales just like kind of
463. 11:28excites me.
464. 11:28>> That was awesome.
465. 11:29>> So like I I I like a a bunch of like
466. 11:31random businesses like I was like, you
467. 11:33know, drop shipper, I was like sold
468. 11:35Supreme, big sneaker reseller.
469. 11:38I had a few like gray
470. 11:39>> So you have the Yeezy Turtle Doves.
471. 11:41>> Of course. What did you learn that from
472. 11:42[clears throat] startups?
473. 11:43>> For sure. Yeah, the sneaker the sneaker
474. 11:44pipeline to like app game is insane.
475. 11:47>> Yeah, all the [ __ ] guys like
476. 11:48>> It's a bunch of There's a bunch of
477. 11:49companies
478. 11:49>> You always noticed there are there like
479. 11:51sneaker resellers or Roblox game
480. 11:52developers?
481. 11:53>> Yeah, that's also a good hustle.
482. 11:55>> That's signal. That's high signal VCs.
483. 11:57>> Yeah, that's just high signal right
484. 11:58there. But yeah.
485. 11:59>> But um yeah, I went to went to Madison.
486. 12:01Wasn't actually was going to go play
487. 12:02basketball in college, but then
488. 12:04>> No way.
489. 12:04>> I was a COVID graduate of high school,
490. 12:06so like didn't want to go like, you
491. 12:08know, maybe I wouldn't have a season, so
492. 12:09I went to Madison. I thought frats were
493. 12:11dumb, so I didn't join them first
494. 12:12semester, and then I was like I met Nick
495. 12:14and all the like all my roommate and
496. 12:15like everyone all my friends that I'd
497. 12:16made they were like you should come
498. 12:17join.
499. 12:19Nick low-key rushed me, honestly.
500. 12:20>> [laughter]
501. 12:21>> I recruited him twice now.
502. 12:22>> I thought he was so weird because
503. 12:24his like his like in his profile picture
504. 12:27on messages was like him in a suit. And
505. 12:29I was like Who's this like serious dude?
506. 12:31>> [laughter]
507. 12:31>> I thought he was like corporate.
508. 12:33Yeah, yeah, legit Patrick Bateman photo.
509. 12:35But then he like showed me the house. I
510. 12:37was like this guy this guy seems chill.
511. 12:38But we didn't really become friends
512. 12:39>> showed up in the middle of the winter to
513. 12:41the house. I'll never forget you. I
514. 12:42think you were wearing the shorts with
515. 12:43the Tims. I was like
516. 12:44>> I was wearing shorts with Tims.
517. 12:45>> Shorts with Tims in like
518. 12:46>> No, I was rocking Tims.
519. 12:46>> In like 20-degree weather, bro. Is that
520. 12:48like a Chicago thing?
521. 12:49>> No.
522. 12:50>> [laughter]
523. 12:50>> I was just rocking Tims.
524. 12:52>> No, but shorts with Tims.
525. 12:53>> Shorts and shorts.
526. 12:53>> How long were the socks? Yeah, and where
527. 12:55were the socks? Like what
528. 12:56>> How long were the socks? Yeah, the Nike
529. 12:57Elites on, bro. The Nike Elites on.
530. 12:58[laughter]
531. 13:00>> The neon green ones?
532. 13:01>> Exactly. Green ones, bro. Pulled all the
533. 13:02way up.
534. 13:03>> Oh, no. I'm crying.
535. 13:05>> Yeah, I feel like we didn't really
536. 13:06become like close friends until like
537. 13:08maybe second semester sophomore year,
538. 13:10like junior year.
539. 13:11>> Yeah, yeah, yeah.
540. 13:12>> Um and then
541. 13:15towards like I guess the end of senior
542. 13:16year I started I was seeing what like
543. 13:18Nick and Canyon were doing. They were
544. 13:19like starting like Satch and V1, I
545. 13:21guess, like the local job market. And I
546. 13:23was just like did not want to go into
547. 13:25the corporate world. Like didn't
548. 13:26honestly have many leads to be honest.
549. 13:28>> But but ended up telling me he had
550. 13:30leads, bro, to like try and get a better
551. 13:31job offer.
552. 13:32>> [laughter]
553. 13:32>> Even though we were paying him like
554. 13:34nothing.
555. 13:34>> No, we dude, we were
556. 13:35>> He's like, "I just got another offer, so
557. 13:36we're going to have to renegotiate."
558. 13:38>> going to do something
559. 13:40>> You got to larp, bro. You got to larp.
560. 13:41But like, you can't larp when there's
561. 13:42like nothing to larp toward.
562. 13:44>> [laughter]
563. 13:44>> Dude, I actually was like joking. I
564. 13:45didn't think you were going to take it
565. 13:46seriously, but you were like, "What?"
566. 13:47>> Like, dude, what are we going to do?
567. 13:49>> I'm going to rip [laughter] up the term
568. 13:50sheet.
569. 13:52>> But uh
570. 13:53I remember I told uh Nick and Canyon and
571. 13:55I had like one like super day for like a
572. 13:57real estate finance job that like
573. 13:59sounded good on paper. And I like drove
574. 14:01down to Chicago for like a super day. It
575. 14:03was like 4-hour interview. And I told
576. 14:04like them before I was like, "All right,
577. 14:05if I if I get this job, like I'm going
578. 14:07to take it. But if I don't, I'm all in
579. 14:09and I'm like ready to ride until like
580. 14:11the wheels fall off." kind of thing.
581. 14:13Um and I think like
582. 14:15Yeah, I mean, I didn't get it obviously
583. 14:16and I was kind of like fired up. I
584. 14:17remember
585. 14:18>> Quickest quickest interview ever.
586. 14:20>> [laughter]
587. 14:20>> No, I actually did well.
588. 14:21>> I I didn't do that well.
589. 14:23>> I I didn't even have any business being
590. 14:24in that room. I didn't even major in
591. 14:25real estate. I majored in history.
592. 14:27>> [laughter]
593. 14:27>> I don't know [ __ ] about real estate.
594. 14:29>> Um but that's actually Canyon when I got
595. 14:31rejected. I was like, "Dude, I'm all in.
596. 14:32Like, let's let's ride."
597. 14:33>> And then let's ride.
598. 14:34>> You should have told them that in the
599. 14:35middle of your you stood up and you're
600. 14:36like, "This isn't right." And you're
601. 14:38like,
602. 14:38>> Well, I mean, at the time, bro, like my
603. 14:40brain was so like scrambled from all the
604. 14:41partying for like a couple years that
605. 14:42like I was just trying to get a job,
606. 14:44like,
607. 14:44>> [laughter]
608. 14:45>> you know?
609. 14:45>> Madison's seems like a fun school.
610. 14:47>> Yeah. Yeah, it was a good time.
611. 14:48>> It's a really good school.
612. 14:49>> This could be totally incorrect, so if
613. 14:50I'm wrong, we can cut this, but it did
614. 14:53Was Nick Daniel from Series involved in
615. 14:54your guys' first round? Like, your your
616. 14:56pre-seed [laughter] or like your dorm
617. 14:57room seed?
618. 14:58>> You could tell us the truth.
619. 14:59>> It is Okay, I saw it somewhere online
620. 15:01like a long time ago. And I was like,
621. 15:02"What the fuck?"
622. 15:02>> All right, so like
623. 15:04>> That was a good pull. I'm glad I brought
624. 15:05that up.
625. 15:05>> That is a good pull. So, we had Okay,
626. 15:06this is I guess I'll try to make this
627. 15:08quick.
628. 15:09>> Yeah, we want to
629. 15:09>> Yeah, yeah. No, I Yeah, it's it is true,
630. 15:12actually. So, essentially
631. 15:15like
632. 15:16September 2023,
633. 15:18like right when Canyon and I were like
634. 15:20launching SideShift, a younger kid in
635. 15:22our fraternity is from Connecticut
636. 15:24hooked us up with like this fund out of
637. 15:26Yale. It's called Bullmont. It was run
638. 15:28by Albert Yang. Shout out to Albert.
639. 15:30Actually like first one of the first
640. 15:31believers in side shift.
641. 15:33Uh even like when we had nothing he just
642. 15:34believed in me and Canyon. And um
643. 15:37Nathaniel was also like part of the that
644. 15:39fund as well. I'm pretty sure it was
645. 15:40just like they had like a pool of like
646. 15:42they had like a fund of like 500k from
647. 15:44like wealthy alumni donors.
648. 15:46And essentially like we went through
649. 15:48this like long interview process like
650. 15:50couple interviews worth and uh we ended
651. 15:52up like getting a $10,000 like
652. 15:55investment from them which is actually
653. 15:56was like huge for us at the time.
654. 15:59You know because like that actually
655. 16:00paved a lot of the uh the Fiverr cost
656. 16:03that we were
657. 16:03>> [laughter]
658. 16:04>> that we were spending cuz we weren't
659. 16:05technical and we had no CTO. We didn't
660. 16:06have Drew at this point. So like that
661. 16:08went all like to Fiverr credits and then
662. 16:10it was honestly a a huge
663. 16:13uh like catalyst for for getting our
664. 16:15first product out.
665. 16:16>> Wasn't Albert also like at the end
666. 16:17wasn't he like all right [ __ ] it I'm
667. 16:18just going to write you a check?
668. 16:20>> I mean yeah yeah yeah. I mean Albert was
669. 16:21like
670. 16:22he was he was the total boy and like I
671. 16:25don't think he really believed in like
672. 16:26that actual business but he was like I
673. 16:28really just like messed with you guys.
674. 16:31Like I I think there's something here. I
675. 16:32don't know if this is the idea but I'm
676. 16:34going to write you this like $10,000
677. 16:35check.
678. 16:36Shout out to Albert.
679. 16:37>> Yeah shout shout out to Albert.
680. 16:39>> Uh it was on a it was on an uncap safe
681. 16:41for uh it was a yeah yeah I don't want
682. 16:43to get too much into
683. 16:44>> [laughter]
684. 16:45>> Probably a good investment for Albert
685. 16:46though. Hey.
686. 16:47>> Yeah yeah yeah. It was a it was a great
687. 16:48inves- it was a great investment for
688. 16:49Albert.
689. 16:50>> Yeah. I I have a another question
690. 16:52concerning like product a a little bit
691. 16:53cuz in the earlier part you guys
692. 16:55mentioned being full stack and then you
693. 16:56mentioned 1099s. I'm curious how do you
694. 16:58guys get most of your product ideas?
695. 17:00Like
696. 17:01kind of some of the things you you were
697. 17:02saying it sounded like you guys are
698. 17:03pretty close to the users. Like that
699. 17:04sounds like something that a user would
700. 17:06want. So I'm curious how you guys get
701. 17:07>> I think the best way anyone can ever get
702. 17:09like
703. 17:09new features to launch is by talking to
704. 17:11their customers. It's something we
705. 17:13stress like incredibly hard at like on
706. 17:15our team is just talk to your customers.
707. 17:17If you have nothing to do, just talk to
708. 17:18your customers. Like if you ever find a
709. 17:20moment where you're not doing something
710. 17:21productive, just go to a Slack channel,
711. 17:23go to a like a text message, go to
712. 17:24email, and just text a customer that you
713. 17:26haven't talked to in a while and say,
714. 17:27"Hey, how's everything going?" That's
715. 17:28literally it.
716. 17:29Most often than not, you'll find that
717. 17:31something that's wrong, a bug that we
718. 17:32need to fix, or something that we could
719. 17:34add that make their life a lot easier.
720. 17:36And having like a really close touch
721. 17:38with your customers allows you to
722. 17:39iterate on the product which is 10 times
723. 17:41better, I think.
724. 17:42Um and like for example, like randomly I
725. 17:44decided to set up customer calls with
726. 17:45like to all of our top customers the
727. 17:47past 2 weeks and just like 30 minutes,
728. 17:49just like, "What do you got for me? Like
729. 17:50what sucks? What's great? Like how can
730. 17:53we make the product better? How can we
731. 17:54help you scale?" Um and like, you know,
732. 17:56that's how you you you find things that
733. 17:58you'll never found if you don't do that.
734. 17:59>> Right, right. I will say that like one
735. 18:01thing about us is we have like really
736. 18:02close relationships with like almost all
737. 18:04of our customers. I mean, we have
738. 18:06damn near, I think last time I checked,
739. 18:07900 like active subscribers at this
740. 18:09point. And essentially, every single one
741. 18:12like has had some sort of call or some
742. 18:14sort of like touch point with myself,
743. 18:16Oliver, Canyon, DJ, Jayden, uh like all
744. 18:20these like all of the members of our
745. 18:21team.
746. 18:22And it just like allows us to build
747. 18:24these like personal relationships with
748. 18:25them. So if they ever like encounter any
749. 18:27bugs, any issues, like they'll just text
750. 18:29like one of us directly. And like we're
751. 18:32kind of Johnny-on-the-spot for getting
752. 18:33it done.
753. 18:34>> Yeah, that's pretty good. One thing
754. 18:35that's actually like starting to become
755. 18:37a little bit of a challenge as we scale
756. 18:39is like being able to like
757. 18:40just figure out how to handle all these
758. 18:41like new customers because I used to
759. 18:43like give out my number to like
760. 18:44>> Yeah.
761. 18:45>> pretty much [laughter] everyone. Like
762. 18:46text me anytime. And I still do that
763. 18:47with this young man.
764. 18:48>> Yeah, thank you, bro. Yeah.
765. 18:50>> Like he text me at like like 11:00 on
766. 18:52Tuesday.
767. 18:52>> Okay, but
768. 18:53>> And I was like I was like I I was I was
769. 18:54like 2 minutes before I slept, I was
770. 18:56like, "All right, I got to text Oliver."
771. 18:57And then immediately text me back. And I
772. 18:59was like
773. 18:59>> high signal. I was like, "Dude, it's
774. 19:00like night time."
775. 19:01>> I text you in the morning, dude. It's
776. 19:02fine.
777. 19:03>> I was tapped in.
778. 19:03>> Yeah, he's like totally coffee.
779. 19:04>> I was like in my bed on my computer
780. 19:06like, "All right."
781. 19:07It was yeah, set up a call for the next
782. 19:08day. And that stuff happens a lot. And
783. 19:09that's something like we have to figure
784. 19:10out as we like really start to scale,
785. 19:12like how to build a team that's able to
786. 19:14handle, you know, all the
787. 19:16a product and a team that's able to
788. 19:17handle all the like the inquiries that
789. 19:18come from customers at any time of the
790. 19:20day. Um so that's something that we have
791. 19:22to navigate, which I think will be fun.
792. 19:24>> Oh, dope.
793. 19:25>> I was going to talk about the future of
794. 19:26UGC.
795. 19:26>> Yeah. So I think what's happening right
796. 19:28now, like and we'll get into it like AI
797. 19:30UGC later. My biggest question is like
798. 19:33how do you see UGC changing over time?
799. 19:35Like people talk about AI, but it
800. 19:36doesn't have to be AI UGC. It could be
801. 19:37influencer partnerships, it could be
802. 19:38paid ads. A lot of people are doing paid
803. 19:39ads now.
804. 19:40>> Yeah.
805. 19:41>> Um how are you guys going to navigate
806. 19:42that like change? Cuz obviously it's
807. 19:43going to change, right?
808. 19:43>> Dude, the one thing I'll say about Side
809. 19:45Shift is we are the best like pivoters
810. 19:47and adapters on earth. Like we've
811. 19:48already done it once and like as UGC
812. 19:51continues to change like we're just
813. 19:52going to keep adapting. We're like we're
814. 19:53a very open-minded team. Like we know
815. 19:55what's going on in the market. Like we
816. 19:56have a very close pulse on everything
817. 19:58and like as we see things start to
818. 20:00change like we will double down on like
819. 20:01what's working. We'll kill what's not
820. 20:03working like really quickly. And to
821. 20:05answer your question about like the
822. 20:06future of UGC and like where we see it
823. 20:08going, I think that the average consumer
824. 20:10is getting a lot smarter. Therefore, I
825. 20:12think like the traditional like hook and
826. 20:14demo like carousel [ __ ] like doesn't
827. 20:16really convert anymore. You need like
828. 20:18these really like compelling talking
829. 20:21head narrative videos that like really
830. 20:24pull a user in and I think that this
831. 20:25huge push with new media is driving a
832. 20:28lot of that. And that's like what we
833. 20:31focus on for our own internal program.
834. 20:33Honestly, like we have about 100
835. 20:34creators. The format that we push the
836. 20:36hardest is some sort of like talking
837. 20:38head talking style.
838. 20:40Hardest to do, but the conversions are
839. 20:42the highest if you can nail it if you
840. 20:44can nail it, right? And I also think
841. 20:47that organic UGC is just like one pillar
842. 20:49of growth that you should be doing. And
843. 20:50like even I like even we're saying that,
844. 20:53we're trying to go into like paid ads,
845. 20:55influencer. We want to own the entire
846. 20:57kind of like stack of the or the supply
847. 20:59chain of the creator economy. And like
848. 21:02UGC is just our wedge and now like we're
849. 21:04starting to eat up kind of like other
850. 21:05facets of said supply chain.
851. 21:07>> Yeah.
852. 21:08>> Also, I'll add to that and say like the
853. 21:10way I think of UGC is that like the
854. 21:12centerfold of like any short-form
855. 21:14creative testing. So, it's like the
856. 21:15cheapest way to get any sort of, you
857. 21:17know, iterative testing. So, like I can
858. 21:19like every brand needs to win on
859. 21:20short-form in some capacity in today's
860. 21:21era. So, like if I can get it like, you
861. 21:23know, 60 videos from one creator at
862. 21:25like, you know, 10, 20 dollars a post or
863. 21:27whatever the the the comp is before
864. 21:29bonuses. Like I'm like you you're not
865. 21:31going to get any sort of testing that
866. 21:32that cheap anywhere else, right? So,
867. 21:34what I can do is I can take those 60
868. 21:35videos, find the videos that perform the
869. 21:37best. That then informs my paid ad
870. 21:39strategy, right? Cuz I can either put
871. 21:41spark spend behind that or put a meta
872. 21:42partnership ad behind that if it's on if
873. 21:44it's on IG.
874. 21:45>> Right.
875. 21:46>> Um and then that will also inform what I
876. 21:47can do if I want to do influencer,
877. 21:49right? Cuz like I can take the same
878. 21:50creative, I can take the same format
879. 21:52that worked from that like initial 60
880. 21:53testing, and then, you know, put spend
881. 21:55towards influencer if that's something I
882. 21:56want to go into. So, like I think like
883. 21:58UGC will always be like even if like it
884. 22:00gets more competitive, which it
885. 22:01obviously will be and it already has
886. 22:02been as we've seen for the past like
887. 22:04year. Like I think it'll always be like
888. 22:06a great like expenditure for a business
889. 22:08to like test
890. 22:10how I can like, you know, build winning
891. 22:11creatives. Cuz everyone's going to need
892. 22:12winning creatives. The whole world's
893. 22:13turning towards short-form. So, like I
894. 22:15think it's kind of just at the
895. 22:16centerfold, and it will be like for the
896. 22:17next like
897. 22:18for the next for however long, but uh
898. 22:21>> forever.
899. 22:22>> Yeah. But as Nick said like like we
900. 22:24don't necessarily know what's going to
901. 22:25happen in the future. I think part of
902. 22:26the business that is a little bit tricky
903. 22:28is that we're very platform-dependent.
904. 22:30So, we depend on Instagram and TikTok
905. 22:32and and their algorithms and
906. 22:34>> I will say that
907. 22:34>> one caveat to that is like we have this
908. 22:36marketplace of like skilled labor that
909. 22:38wants to earn online, right? Maybe it's
910. 22:39not content forever, maybe it's
911. 22:40something else. You know, it's just like
912. 22:42harnessing like almost like a million
913. 22:44people who are like hungry to earn
914. 22:46online in some capacity is like
915. 22:49>> Yeah.
916. 22:49>> definitely a like something we we know
917. 22:51that we do have.
918. 22:52>> Yeah, and going into that actually, you
919. 22:54guys both kind of alluded to in your
920. 22:55answers. I'm curious if
921. 22:57and these things are always in influx
922. 22:58like you mentioned, but in five years
923. 22:59kind of what is the vision for Sideshift
924. 23:02or like if if you scale ideally, kind of
925. 23:04what does the ideal version of SideShift
926. 23:06look like? What's the ideal version?
927. 23:07>> you're going to say. I don't know what
928. 23:07you're [laughter] going to say, but I
929. 23:08want to hear what you're going to
930. 23:09>> What I like to say is that I don't think
931. 23:10in like five-year timelines. I couldn't
932. 23:12even like begin to give you an example
933. 23:14because like
934. 23:15Yeah, our business model has changed
935. 23:17every month or two months since the
936. 23:20inception of SideShift or at least since
937. 23:22like the pivot to the creator economy.
938. 23:24Um so like I could be dead in five
939. 23:26years. I have no idea.
940. 23:28I really have no idea though.
941. 23:30>> Everything's a possibility, I guess.
942. 23:31>> [laughter]
943. 23:32>> Come on, bro. Try to try to look at the
944. 23:33brighter side.
945. 23:34>> I mean, that is looking at the bright
946. 23:36side. I'm very happy to be alive.
947. 23:38>> [laughter]
948. 23:39>> You know what? No, I think that's like a
949. 23:40That's not a bad man. It's like wake up
950. 23:41every day like at least I'm not dead.
951. 23:43>> I mean, I I think like long-term goal is
952. 23:45to try and
953. 23:46>> [laughter]
954. 23:50>> To try and actually like paint the
955. 23:51picture, I think one of the long-term
956. 23:52goals that we have is like we want 100
957. 23:54million people earning on SideShift,
958. 23:56whether that is content, whether that's
959. 23:58a variety of other different things that
960. 24:00they could do. Maybe like you know, your
961. 24:02For You like you have your For You page
962. 24:03essentially on SideShift for creators
963. 24:04right now and it's all these different
964. 24:06like content gig opportunities. You
965. 24:08know, maybe like you open up your For
966. 24:09You page in another part of the world
967. 24:10and it's like a different type of like
968. 24:12earning opportunity online. Just like
969. 24:14we're trying to essentially change the
970. 24:15way that people are earning in like the
971. 24:17post-W-2 economy.
972. 24:19>> Right. Yeah.
973. 24:19>> Makes sense.
974. 24:20>> I think that's a that's a good answer.
975. 24:21And I would say a closer goal like in
976. 24:23the next like year or six months would
977. 24:25be just consistently starting to own as
978. 24:27Nick said a second ago like the entire
979. 24:29like
980. 24:30creator economy like SideShift
981. 24:31>> value chain
982. 24:32>> value chain. Yeah, like we were building
983. 24:33out this discover page, which is like
984. 24:35been really successful so far where
985. 24:37brands that come inbound to SideShift
986. 24:38can hire creators, they can hire
987. 24:39campaign managers, they can hire
988. 24:41agencies, they can hire clipping
989. 24:42platforms, and soon they'll be able to
990. 24:44hire influencers, media buyers, you
991. 24:46know, all this other stuff that will
992. 24:48allow them to just allow us to be kind
993. 24:50of at the forefront of all sorts of
994. 24:51things distribution. Um a little bit
995. 24:53like a referral marketplace.
996. 24:55>> Yeah.
997. 24:55>> So or we're going to
998. 24:57pivot into uh defense tech.
999. 25:01>> That'll be on there.
1000. 25:01>> Shout out Kyle Kuzma.
1001. 25:02>> We were selling selling GP news.
1002. 25:06>> He said he was going to be on the couch
1003. 25:07table.
1004. 25:08>> He said he was going to be
1005. 25:08>> He said he was [clears throat] going to
1006. 25:09be on the couch table.
1007. 25:10>> He hasn't introduced me.
1008. 25:12>> Yeah, Kyle Kuzma.
1009. 25:13>> [laughter]
1010. 25:14>> It's a big if.
1011. 25:17>> We shot him a DM on Twitter.
1012. 25:18>> We like just we replied. We had
1013. 25:20>> I like
1014. 25:21>> I like quote tweeted something of his
1015. 25:22and I was like, "Whatever, bro. I don't
1016. 25:23even want you on our podcast anyways."
1017. 25:24>> And he replied to my tweet saying,
1018. 25:25"Let's do it." And I was like, "Oh
1019. 25:26shit."
1020. 25:27>> [laughter]
1021. 25:27>> And we all responded in unison.
1022. 25:29>> You got to follow up.
1023. 25:31>> Then he went on TV the next day.
1024. 25:32>> [laughter]
1025. 25:33>> I was like, "LA Laker champion?"
1026. 25:35Kyle Kuzma.
1027. 25:36>> No, he's your champion.
1028. 25:37>> He's actually got a cool little phone. I
1029. 25:38was watching his video last night.
1030. 25:40>> He's actually a Thompson.
1031. 25:41>> he had a ghost writer, but no, like he
1032. 25:42actually [clears throat] knows what he's
1033. 25:43talking about. He's actually
1034. 25:44>> I'm not surprised.
1035. 25:45>> Yeah.
1036. 25:46>> I mean, he spent all that time in
1037. 25:47Milwaukee. He probably just got bored.
1038. 25:49>> [laughter]
1039. 25:49>> I got to figure out something to do.
1040. 25:52>> Yeah, that's a
1041. 25:53>> Talk to us about Wisconsin.
1042. 25:55>> So, I I think
1043. 25:56we're three we're three California boys.
1044. 25:58>> So
1045. 25:59>> I feel like
1046. 26:00>> Huh?
1047. 26:00>> No.
1048. 26:01>> I would say like the the a lot of the
1049. 26:02stereotype around like some of the
1050. 26:03non-tech schools is like, "Oh, if you
1051. 26:05don't go to a Berkeley or Stanford, you
1052. 26:07can never make a startup." Right? Like
1053. 26:08you're not going to get funding as like
1054. 26:09essentially. So, what was your process
1055. 26:11going through like like what was the
1056. 26:13background of like how what are people
1057. 26:15doing in Wisconsin?
1058. 26:17>> It's actually a great question because I
1059. 26:18feel like
1060. 26:19I feel like we're one of the rare few
1061. 26:21that made it out
1062. 26:23It's a there's a couple other great
1063. 26:24companies. Uh Line Leaps one of them.
1064. 26:26Have you heard of them?
1065. 26:27>> Oh, Line Leaps from Wisconsin?
1066. 26:28>> Yeah, Line Leaps, Brick, and Fetch
1067. 26:31Rewards as well. They're the biggest.
1068. 26:34But like long story short, man, like
1069. 26:36when you're at Wisconsin, all you're
1070. 26:38like really armed with is like YC
1071. 26:41Startup School, bro. And you just like
1072. 26:43get so pill done like you're never going
1073. 26:44to get in there. It's only Stanford.
1074. 26:46It's only like X McKinsey. Yada yada
1075. 26:48yada you have to be insanely technical.
1076. 26:50And this is like pre-Vibe coding. So,
1077. 26:52like all that is essentially very true
1078. 26:54and what they were funding back then.
1079. 26:56And I just remember like I was like one
1080. 26:58day I'm just going to make it out of
1081. 26:59here. Like we're like I promise like I'm
1082. 27:01going to go to New York and like we're
1083. 27:02going to make this thing huge.
1084. 27:03>> Last chopper out of Wisconsin.
1085. 27:04>> Literally last chopper out of Wisconsin,
1086. 27:06bro. And I just like
1087. 27:08I always knew the odds were just so
1088. 27:09slim. We like applied to YC six times,
1089. 27:11denied every single time, never an
1090. 27:13interview.
1091. 27:14Like absolutely just cooked. And but I
1092. 27:17was just like, you know what? Like it's
1093. 27:18like persistence is one of the most like
1094. 27:20powerful things in the world. Nothing
1095. 27:21can play take the place of persistence.
1096. 27:23It's actually a frat quote. It's a frat
1097. 27:24quote.
1098. 27:25It's very true. And like every day I
1099. 27:28just would I was I would just wake up
1100. 27:30and I'm like, all right, we're just
1101. 27:31going to do it today. And like I don't
1102. 27:32>> No.
1103. 27:33>> Maybe if we just like push the rock a
1104. 27:34centimeter, I'm just going to get up and
1105. 27:35do it tomorrow. Tomorrow, tomorrow.
1106. 27:37Sisyphus style.
1107. 27:39And you know, eventually we pushed that
1108. 27:41rock for like 505 days, I think. And
1109. 27:43that's like
1110. 27:44on that 505th day is when I consider us
1111. 27:47like finding product market fit. And you
1112. 27:49know, I feel like, you know, that has
1113. 27:50pushed us into
1114. 27:52you know, I don't want to say you've
1115. 27:53ever made it, but like I want to say
1116. 27:54that, you know, we've definitely come a
1117. 27:55long way. And I'm like proud to proud to
1118. 27:58see the journey so far.
1119. 27:59>> And I'm sure a lot of those YC companies
1120. 28:00now are using Side Shift.
1121. 28:02>> We have a lot of YC discounts.
1122. 28:04>> Oh, you have a YC discount now?
1123. 28:05>> We're always getting recommended in
1124. 28:07BookFace. Someone was telling me that
1125. 28:08the other day. I was actually just
1126. 28:09texting with a YC founder, Ryan Koral.
1127. 28:12>> With so many new brands coming on the
1128. 28:13Side Shift, I guess what's the biggest
1129. 28:15thing
1130. 28:16what separates a successful UGC campaign
1131. 28:18from those that aren't doing too well,
1132. 28:20right?
1133. 28:21>> Yeah, that's a great question. I would
1134. 28:23say I mean Oliver has his own answer to
1135. 28:25this question, but I would say like what
1136. 28:27separates a good UGC campaign from a bad
1137. 28:29UGC campaign
1138. 28:30is like expectations, right? People just
1139. 28:33set these crazy unrealistic
1140. 28:35expectations. They see like the Poly
1141. 28:37Market program, the Whisper Flow
1142. 28:38program, all these like massive programs
1143. 28:40that are doing like, you know, between
1144. 28:41250 to 500 million views a month. And
1145. 28:44they're like, oh, I want that. But I
1146. 28:46want to spend a thousand dollars on like
1147. 28:49a creator and I want them to post, you
1148. 28:51know, a hundred videos. And if it
1149. 28:54doesn't work, then I'm like going to
1150. 28:55churn out from this channel. So, it's
1151. 28:56like
1152. 28:57>> Yeah.
1153. 28:57>> Our expectations is number one. Number
1154. 28:59two, I would say is like people treat
1155. 29:01these creators as like vendors instead
1156. 29:04of like people. And that's like the
1157. 29:05biggest difference, I think, is whenever
1158. 29:08I'm like running a program myself. And
1159. 29:10like I don't do it very much anymore.
1160. 29:13>> [laughter]
1161. 29:14>> But But, um like I I try to meet
1162. 29:17everyone. Like I try to like actually
1163. 29:19like get to know them, like where
1164. 29:20they're from. Like because they're
1165. 29:21essentially becoming evangelists for
1166. 29:23your product, right?
1167. 29:24>> Yeah.
1168. 29:24>> And you don't like want to just like
1169. 29:26treat them as like, you know, a pay stub
1170. 29:28at the end of the day. Like you want
1171. 29:29these people to truly be bought into
1172. 29:30your product, into your mission. And
1173. 29:32that's like when you give like this
1174. 29:34content feedback, you give all of this
1175. 29:36like, you know, iterations. Like they
1176. 29:38take it and they apply it and they don't
1177. 29:39just like kind of tell you to like kick
1178. 29:41rocks and be just like retainer
1179. 29:42merchants, right?
1180. 29:43>> Yeah.
1181. 29:44>> I I agree.
1182. 29:45>> I mean, I think like to answer your
1183. 29:46question about like what we see in most
1184. 29:48successful, like any of the biggest and
1185. 29:50best performing companies on Sacheuver
1186. 29:52programs all have like a really really
1187. 29:54like intense and like careful
1188. 29:56relationship with the creators. I guess
1189. 29:58intense is the wrong word, but like
1190. 29:59>> Intense, yeah.
1191. 30:00>> What are you What are you doing with
1192. 30:01with the Sacheuver people?
1193. 30:02>> [laughter]
1194. 30:03>> They're just like they're I I would say
1195. 30:05maybe like they're they're intensely
1196. 30:07like proactive with their creators. And
1197. 30:09like they foster a great community,
1198. 30:11which you guys have probably done part
1199. 30:12of when you got you both worked at
1200. 30:14Turbo, right?
1201. 30:15>> Yeah, yeah.
1202. 30:15>> Um that's like the the best thing we did
1203. 30:17at Turbo. We like we'd have like
1204. 30:18retreats. We have like
1205. 30:19>> Yeah, exactly.
1206. 30:21>> Like I I I remember like I wasn't like I
1207. 30:23wasn't a coach or nothing. I was like
1208. 30:25just like running the entire funnel, but
1209. 30:26like I remember like I just like for
1210. 30:29like a week, I just took calls from like
1211. 30:30our top 50 creators. And I And then like
1212. 30:33it's funny cuz every single one of them
1213. 30:34had the same reaction. They're like "So,
1214. 30:35what's what's up?" Cuz they thought they
1215. 30:37were getting fired. And I was like I
1216. 30:38just cuz I I actually did not give them
1217. 30:40any purpose. I wanted them to be
1218. 30:40surprised. I was like "I the calls we
1219. 30:42wanted to let you know today. You're
1220. 30:43doing a great job."
1221. 30:44>> Yeah, actually, yeah. It's [ __ ] like
1222. 30:46that that like [clears throat] makes
1223. 30:47these pro- programs work really well.
1224. 30:49>> because like if you have a absolute like
1225. 30:52killer creator, it's going to do insane
1226. 30:53volumes for your business. Like
1227. 30:55if you look at look at like even not in
1228. 30:57the app space, you look at like a brand
1229. 30:58like Comfort for example. Like
1230. 31:00>> Boom. Comfort.
1231. 31:00>> Boom. All those like like, you know,
1232. 31:02they have armies of creators that like
1233. 31:04just get absolutely like treated like
1234. 31:05princesses and kings because they're
1235. 31:08doing so much of like they're doing work
1236. 31:09that provides so much value to the
1237. 31:11business. Like if you have a creator
1238. 31:12that's doing 10 million views on their
1239. 31:13account, like you should compensate them
1240. 31:15very like well and you shouldn't have
1241. 31:16treat them incredibly well. They're
1242. 31:18They're part of the company. They're
1243. 31:19>> If a creator is doing 10 million views a
1244. 31:20month, I'm like doing their laundry,
1245. 31:21bro.
1246. 31:21>> Exactly, bro. Like
1247. 31:23>> And And even like they're your best
1248. 31:24asset right there, man.
1249. 31:24>> Yeah, and even like people that aren't
1250. 31:26there yet, but you see potential in them
1251. 31:27or like they've done it before and you
1252. 31:28know there's potential you want to like
1253. 31:30treat them incredibly well and like
1254. 31:31foster a really strong community. So, I
1255. 31:33think that's like a really important
1256. 31:34thing that people do.
1257. 31:35>> Yeah.
1258. 31:36Yeah, I think like a lot of like I mean
1259. 31:38Yushana and I can speak on this, too.
1260. 31:40>> Like a lot of UGC programs I see um
1261. 31:42they Yeah, they they just don't
1262. 31:43understand like there's an iteration
1263. 31:45process where they want like the program
1264. 31:47to be kicking off within a month. I'm
1265. 31:48like, "You need recruitment. You need
1266. 31:49lead up. You need warm-up time. You need
1267. 31:51to figure out whether cuz like even in
1268. 31:53UGC, you are technically finding PMF on
1269. 31:55the for you page."
1270. 31:56>> Yeah, yes, exactly.
1271. 31:57>> We call that content market fit, man.
1272. 31:58And like I think it takes longer than a
1273. 32:00>> CMF. It takes like longer than a month
1274. 32:02to honestly find and like that's where
1275. 32:04these pro- these programs will go awry
1276. 32:05is they'll be like two weeks in not
1277. 32:07seeing any results and like, "Oh, this
1278. 32:08channel sucks. It doesn't work for me."
1279. 32:09And he's like, "Bro, you didn't even
1280. 32:10test it."
1281. 32:11>> Yeah. We're not doing We're not doing 25
1282. 32:13million views a month either.
1283. 32:15>> On a $10,000 budget?
1284. 32:16>> Like a few million views a month.
1285. 32:17>> CPM? He's like, "He's crazy."
1286. 32:19>> Like month one getting a few million
1287. 32:20views is like you're you're in the
1288. 32:22green, in my opinion. Like I also like
1289. 32:24if you if you want to give like people
1290. 32:26advice or like see how like a program
1291. 32:28should work, like
1292. 32:29we should talk about like I think a good
1293. 32:31mirror of this is like how Side Shift
1294. 32:32got their program started, which was
1295. 32:33legitimately Nick making nine videos a
1296. 32:35day. And like I was making videos. DJ
1297. 32:38was making videos.
1298. 32:38>> You got to provide value early on.
1299. 32:41No customers like nothing nine videos a
1300. 32:43day until we got our first viral video
1301. 32:44doubled our user base and took took
1302. 32:46about like a month to get there and then
1303. 32:49another month for the next viral video
1304. 32:50and then we slowly started to build a
1305. 32:52community of creators.
1306. 32:53>> That's right.
1307. 32:54>> You know like like
1308. 32:55and also if you're a founder and you're
1309. 32:56not technical like you should be posting
1310. 32:59as many videos as possible per day.
1311. 33:01You should warm up a new account. You
1312. 33:02should post every single day.
1313. 33:03>> yeah even like I think people should
1314. 33:05apply like e-com principles more to
1315. 33:07consumer apps. Like if you look at like
1316. 33:09Shawn from Ridge or like Huddleston
1317. 33:10Comfort or Greg from Bloom. It's like
1318. 33:12they all preach the same message and and
1319. 33:14our boy Brian Bloom shut up Brian.
1320. 33:17But they all preach the same message
1321. 33:18right and that's essentially like you
1322. 33:19need to be just like loading your for
1323. 33:22you pages with content. It's like the
1324. 33:23most high leverage thing you can
1325. 33:24actually do as a founder and especially
1326. 33:26in this day and age man. I mean the
1327. 33:28marketing goats are truly the drop
1328. 33:29shippers.
1329. 33:29>> I heard I heard a really good quote. I
1330. 33:31think I think it's from Blake Anderson
1331. 33:32actually.
1332. 33:32>> Yeah it was Blake yeah.
1333. 33:33>> about e-commerce and by like what a drop
1334. 33:35shipping like have has the best
1335. 33:36marketers because there's no product
1336. 33:38mode right? Software becomes more like
1337. 33:40that due to my voting and stuff like
1338. 33:41that. It's becoming you could see it
1339. 33:43literally moving
1340. 33:44>> Distribution's the final mode man.
1341. 33:46>> Yeah no.
1342. 33:46>> Taste and distribution.
1343. 33:48>> Taste.
1344. 33:49>> Oh god I hate that word.
1345. 33:50>> Yeah [laughter] I like that.
1346. 33:51>> No
1347. 33:53>> It's just cuz like we talked to like a
1348. 33:54lot of the SF people.
1349. 33:56>> They're just always like
1350. 33:57>> I like it but I feel like people use it
1351. 33:58as a replacement for words that they can
1352. 34:00use like they use it as a catchall. It's
1353. 34:02all on some things.
1354. 34:03>> Sure sure sure.
1355. 34:04>> Yeah that's fair.
1356. 34:05>> Have y'all ever thought about having
1357. 34:06Slash if in SF?
1358. 34:08>> Yeah.
1359. 34:09>> Hell
1360. 34:12>> Hell no. I'm not going to SF.
1361. 34:14>> [laughter]
1362. 34:14>> I mean like shoutout like shoutout SF.
1363. 34:17I love everyone that's there. I love all
1364. 34:19of our customers that are in SF. I just
1365. 34:21like I'm just a big believer in like
1366. 34:24trying to put yourself in like the best
1367. 34:26mental headspace possible to build a
1368. 34:28great company. And like when you're in
1369. 34:30SF bro and like I've been there a couple
1370. 34:31times. Every time it I'm there, it's
1371. 34:33like
1372. 34:34"What's your MRR?" Like, "What are you
1373. 34:36What's retention looking like? What's
1374. 34:37brand NR?" Like, "What's this? What's
1375. 34:38that?" Like, "What's your CAC? Who's on
1376. 34:40your cap table?" It's just like it's too
1377. 34:41tech, man. It's like
1378. 34:43at the end of the day, like you you want
1379. 34:44to build a a a great business, and you
1380. 34:46want to put yourself in the best
1381. 34:47headspace, and like sometimes that means
1382. 34:48like kind of just like unwinding,
1383. 34:50resetting, like going out to dinner with
1384. 34:52friends who are in different industries.
1385. 34:53And like that's like when you can start
1386. 34:55to formulate new ideas, because if
1387. 34:56everyone is like thinking the same
1388. 34:58thing, talking about the same things,
1389. 34:59there's no innovation happening, right?
1390. 35:01>> I agree. I I think I think a lot of
1391. 35:02people like they just don't know how to
1392. 35:03have a conversation. Like I've a really
1393. 35:05good friend in the space, um Alisha
1394. 35:06Pham, runs a really successful like
1395. 35:07coaching and consulting business. But
1396. 35:09every time her and I um we get lunch, we
1397. 35:11get dinner, we never talk about work. We
1398. 35:12just strictly just talk about a lot of
1399. 35:14brain rot, actually.
1400. 35:15>> [laughter]
1401. 35:16>> Yeah. I do love that SF has a ton of
1402. 35:18nature, man. I'm a big nature guy.
1403. 35:19>> I will say like we you have Central
1404. 35:21Park.
1405. 35:22>> Dude, New York's got no parks. That's
1406. 35:24the one thing I will say. Like it's not
1407. 35:25like Chicago. There's a lot of parks.
1408. 35:27>> Man, we keep bringing up Chicago, bro.
1409. 35:29>> Chicago deep.
1410. 35:30>> Beautiful, man.
1411. 35:31>> We're running low on time.
1412. 35:32>> Yes.
1413. 35:32>> Yeah.
1414. 35:32>> Do you want to talk about
1415. 35:34>> Yeah, you just
1416. 35:35>> Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about
1417. 35:36AI UGC.
1418. 35:38I brought up earlier, but essentially
1419. 35:39there's a lot of startups, you know, a
1420. 35:41lot of VCs thinking that like AI UGC is
1421. 35:42the future.
1422. 35:43>> How do you see Sideshift playing a role
1423. 35:45in that?
1424. 35:45>> 100%, man. I mean, I talk I talk to a
1425. 35:47lot of VCs who
1426. 35:48always ask that same question. I was
1427. 35:49like, "Where's AI UGC?" And here's like
1428. 35:51my honest take is like I'm not anti AI
1429. 35:53UGC by any means, right? I think there's
1430. 35:56a couple different ways you can look at
1431. 35:58it. And I'll start with the creator
1432. 36:00side. I think there's a lot of people
1433. 36:02nowadays who want to create content, but
1434. 36:04don't necessarily want to put their face
1435. 36:06in front of a camera. I think it's a
1436. 36:08great opportunity for them to actually
1437. 36:10earn online creating faceless content in
1438. 36:13some capacity. Maybe it's like really
1439. 36:15compelling AI like, you know, narrative
1440. 36:17UGC type stuff. Um
1441. 36:20the one the the one like caveat to that
1442. 36:21is I just like we haven't seen it
1443. 36:23convert extremely well, right? I think
1444. 36:26that once it does start to convert well
1445. 36:29and like we have a little bit more
1446. 36:30conviction in conversions because views
1447. 36:32is a vanity metric. It's all about
1448. 36:34conversions at the end of the day. Like
1449. 36:35I don't care that your program does
1450. 36:37like, you know, 20 million views but
1451. 36:39like you actually get like no users or
1452. 36:41sales from that. Like that's not a great
1453. 36:43metric. It's about like
1454. 36:44how much conversion are you actually
1455. 36:45driving? And I just like have struggled
1456. 36:48to see that from AI UGC.
1457. 36:50However, if it does start to convert
1458. 36:53more heavily and this goes back to what
1459. 36:55I was saying earlier about like us being
1460. 36:56open-minded, it's something that we
1461. 36:58would build into the product on either
1462. 37:00the brand side or the creator side. I'm
1463. 37:02a little more inclined to build it on
1464. 37:03the creator side honestly because at the
1465. 37:05end of the day like
1466. 37:07that's I like I love all of our
1467. 37:09creators. I love helping people earn
1468. 37:10online. Like the stories that we hear
1469. 37:12like people paying off student loans.
1470. 37:14>> Single moms like like being able to
1471. 37:17afford
1472. 37:17>> This had a C-section and like emergency
1473. 37:19C-section. She was like, "Thank god for
1474. 37:21Side Shift I could like afford it." And
1475. 37:22like I was editing she was like editing
1476. 37:23her videos.
1477. 37:24>> like that like in the hospital.
1478. 37:26Like that's like I don't know. She was
1479. 37:28editing the videos like in the hospital.
1480. 37:29That's all I know. Yeah, but she was
1481. 37:31like very fortunate that you know, she's
1482. 37:32able to earn in like a remote setting
1483. 37:34online like due to Side Shift. Like
1484. 37:35stuff like that like helping people earn
1485. 37:37money is like that's like a a net
1486. 37:39positive for society and that's like
1487. 37:41I think a lot of our like that's both of
1488. 37:43our internal missions. I can speak for
1489. 37:45the rest of the team as well.
1490. 37:46>> I would agree.
1491. 37:47>> Yeah, it's important.
1492. 37:50Yeah, truly a better
1493. 37:51>> [laughter]
1494. 37:51>> I mean I think it's like a you know,
1495. 37:54it's a better mindset
1496. 37:55>> than I I think Pump That Fun just
1497. 37:56released today like
1498. 37:57>> I saw that bro.
1499. 37:58>> It's called like Go Pump and it's like
1500. 37:59it's very like Black Mirror dystopia.
1501. 38:02It's a dare system.
1502. 38:03Like so like they put a bounty on. So
1503. 38:05say it's like, "Oh,
1504. 38:07I go make out with the first influencer
1505. 38:10you see at this party and we'll pay you
1506. 38:12$2,000." You claim the bounty.
1507. 38:14>> That is crazy.
1508. 38:15>> Surely nothing could go wrong with that.
1509. 38:16>> Yeah, it's assassinations. Like that's
1510. 38:18nuts.
1511. 38:18>> [laughter]
1512. 38:18>> Okay, I don't think it's going to be
1513. 38:20like
1514. 38:21>> It's like that one movie with Dave
1515. 38:22Franco.
1516. 38:23>> Oh, a nerve?
1517. 38:24>> Yeah, nerve.
1518. 38:25>> [laughter]
1519. 38:25>> I don't know, man. All I know is that we
1520. 38:28like to build things that are like a net
1521. 38:29positive for society at the end of the
1522. 38:31day. Try to make a world a better place.
1523. 38:33>> I
1524. 38:34love Jackson.
1525. 38:34>> Yeah. Try to make the world a better
1526. 38:36place, then
1527. 38:37>> Everything will come. You're you're in
1528. 38:38the right.
1529. 38:38>> Nice.
1530. 38:39>> Anything else you want to say to the
1531. 38:40people?
1532. 38:41>> Yeah, I guess some last things. We've
1533. 38:43got a pretty interesting founding story
1534. 38:45that we're about to launch a documentary
1535. 38:46on, so stay tuned. Um also, we've got a
1536. 38:49head of
1537. 38:50>> new media who's like right here filming
1538. 38:51us.
1539. 38:51>> He's just been Shoutout Squill.
1540. 38:53>> Shoutout Squill.
1541. 38:54>> Launching a lot of really cool content
1542. 38:55on YouTube, so like
1543. 38:58Tap into our YouTube, our Twitter. We've
1544. 38:59got some fun things coming.
1545. 39:00>> Where can you find the documentary?
1546. 39:01>> Yeah. Uh it'll be on YouTube. It'll be
1547. 39:03on the SideShift YouTube channel.
1548. 39:04Probably do some shorts on like X and
1549. 39:06Instagram and TikTok and whatnot.
1550. 39:07>> We'll be sat.
1551. 39:08>> That's right. And if you want to get
1552. 39:10into UGC, if you want to grow your
1553. 39:13consumer app, your e-comm product, check
1554. 39:16out SideShift. Use code
1555. 39:19cap for 25% off for the first month,
1556. 39:22first time users only.
1557. 39:23>> Is that a Is that a thing?
1558. 39:24>> Yeah, we're going to make it right now.
1559. 39:25Make it
1560. 39:27>> [laughter]
1561. 39:28>> Yes.
1562. 39:29>> Take a gander at that.
1563. 39:31>> Yeah.
1564. 39:31>> Well, that's been the Cap Table guys.
1565. 39:33That has been, you know, SideShift.
1566. 39:34Thanks so much for coming on.
1567. 39:35>> You can catch us on
1568. 39:37YouTube, X, TikTok, Instagram, Yelp,
1569. 39:41GitHub, Patreon, Google,
1570. 39:44>> Are we on Discord?
1571. 39:45>> Discord,
1572. 39:46>> Pinterest,
1573. 39:46>> Pinterest.
1574. 39:47>> Guys, you're everywhere.
1575. 39:48>> Wow.
1576. 39:48>> Spotify,
1577. 39:49>> How do I say that?
1578. 39:51>> [laughter]
1579. 39:51>> Xiao Hong Shu as well.
1580. 39:52>> What is that?
1581. 39:52>> [ __ ] is that?
1582. 39:53>> That's the Chinese Red Note.
1583. 39:54>> Red Note.
1584. 39:55>> Red Note.
1585. 39:56>> Yeah, [laughter] lemonade. Lemonade.
1586. 39:58>> Triller.
1587. 39:58>> Triller.
1588. 39:59>> Triller, T-Series.
1589. 40:00>> Musically.
1590. 40:01>> All right, bye guys.
1591. 40:02>> Peace.