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How People Got Jacked From 1900 To Today (ft. Conor Heffernan, PhD) — Transcript

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0:00So, at the very birth of our modern
0:02fitness industry, you have a genetically
0:04blessed bodybuilder willingly selling
0:06something to his client base around the
0:08world that he knows doesn't truly match
0:12up.
0:12>> Wow. And this is so fascinating. I feel
0:14like most people know of Eugene Sandow
0:17as like the father of all this stuff
0:19that we're doing, right? Like he was
0:20like the first jacked guy, like the
0:22first ripped guy, right? And even the
0:24Mr. Olympia trophy to this day is named
0:26after him. I don't know how many people
0:29know him as a hustster if guys were able
0:31to look like that back then with the
0:33equipment that you described. What is
0:36all of this science actually for? Like
0:38what is it doing?
0:40>> Yeah. As a historian, I really do want
0:42your honest opinion on the social media
0:46era of fitness.
0:48>> Everything is wonderful. My captors are
0:50treating me very well.
0:53>> Connor Hefernan, thanks for coming on
0:54the podcast, man.
0:55>> Yeah. No, listen. It's a real pleasure.
0:56Thank you.
0:57>> So your area of research is really
0:59interesting. Could you just tell us a
1:01little bit about your PhD and what kind
1:03of work you do?
1:04>> I study the desire to look better naked.
1:07>> All right.
1:08>> That's it in one. So I study the history
1:09of fitness, the history of strength, the
1:10history of aesthetics for one of a
1:12better phrase. So my PhD and everything
1:14to this present day has been looking at
1:16how do men and women women lift weights?
1:18How long have they lifted weights for?
1:20How has that changed over time? And then
1:22how does that differ depending on if
1:23you're in the US or in Ireland or in
1:25Britain or in India? And a lot of the
1:27times you come back to kind of core
1:28fundamentals, which is what makes it
1:30quite interesting and fun.
1:32>> Okay, cool. Yeah, I I feel like it's
1:33such a unique area because like I I've
1:36spoke with so many people whose PhD is
1:38in fitness, but it's generally in like
1:40the science or medical side and not the
1:42history side. So is your is your area
1:45actually like under the history
1:46department or is it more still under
1:48like the kinesiology department? So
1:50historians don't respect me, but I
1:52respect I [laughter] like me and that's
1:53the thing because I'm not doing French
1:54Revolution, right? So I'm in both. So
1:57when I taught in Texas and University of
1:59Texas Stack Center has a history and
2:01museum of fitness, I was in kinesiology
2:03and then if I'm in Ireland or England,
2:05I'm in a a history department or a
2:07sports department. So I'm kind of a
2:09mongrel who moves in between all those
2:10things, which makes sense because
2:12fitness bleeds into all of these
2:14different areas. So I think that's what
2:16makes it
2:18well makes me less respectable.
2:20>> [laughter]
2:20>> Fair enough. Um, no, your your work is
2:22is super cool, like from from what I've
2:24seen. And you've published several
2:25books, too, right? Yeah. And it's all on
2:27this history of physical culture.
2:30>> Yeah. And this is where I say things
2:32start to look the same. So, my last
2:33book, When Fitness Went Global, looked
2:35at the 1800s and how did things like
2:37gymnastics become popular, dumbbells,
2:39barbells, how did people begin using the
2:41same workout system? So if you were in,
2:43you know, Boston, when did you start
2:45using the same workout system as someone
2:47in Dublin or someone in South Africa or
2:49someone in Chile? When did fitness
2:52become the same or kind of at least
2:54broadly similar? And then tangentally
2:56connected to that is what did that mean
2:58for people? So my next book project is
3:00looking at Olympic lifting for women in
3:02America in the 20th century and looking
3:04at what did it mean for a Judy Glenny or
3:07a Karen Marshall, two pioneering Olympic
3:09weightlifterss to do that sport. what
3:11did it mean for them themselves to build
3:12their bodies, to win medals, to break
3:14barriers. So, I'm interested in both the
3:16kind of personal story, but then the
3:18kind of broader structure of how we've
3:20gotten to this point in the fitness
3:21industry.
3:22>> So, how did you get into this kind of
3:24thing? Like, were you someone who was
3:25more interested in history and then you
3:28started to explore the fitness side of
3:29that or are you someone who was into
3:31bodybuilding and then you wanted to
3:32figure out the history of bodybuilding?
3:34>> I'm going to offend exercise scientists
3:36in Ireland here. So when I got into
3:38fitness, I was really interested in what
3:39you'd say is like evidence-based
3:41fitness, right?
3:42>> But there was no real popular sports
3:44science or exercise science people. And
3:46because I was doing a history degree at
3:48the time, I was like, well, if I can't
3:49get into the science side of it, I'll
3:51get into the history side of it. So my
3:52evidence-based practice as it was was
3:55looking at books from the 1910s, 20s,
3:5830s, 40s, 50s, 60s, all the way up to
3:59the present day and saying, "Right,
4:01well, how did they work out in 1960s
4:03America? Oh, I'm going to do a Vinscar 8
4:05by8 program. see what that looks like.
4:07Okay, now I want to build weight. I'm
4:08going to do 20 rep squats and go mad.
4:10So, I would go back into the history to
4:12inform my own training and my own
4:14nutrition
4:15>> because the time where I was in fitness,
4:18it was either kind of Joe Weider
4:19magazines, you know, like Muslim
4:20fitness, flex, men's health, things like
4:22that, or the big guy at the gym. Yeah.
4:25>> And the big guy at the gym was great.
4:26The magazines maybe not so great. And
4:28then I realized that I could just go
4:30back in time.
4:31>> So, that's what I did before I realized
4:33exercise science was a thing. That's
4:35really really interesting. See, it
4:37actually hasn't for me it hasn't been
4:38until recently that I've started to
4:40really look back and dig into this
4:41stuff. So, I would consider myself still
4:43like a newbie as far as the history side
4:46of this goes, which is actually exciting
4:48because I feel like there's so much for
4:49me to learn now. Um, so I recently did a
4:53video where I went back and looked at
4:55what I thought were the best physiques
4:56from each decade over the last hundred
4:59years. And what I found was the
5:01physiques from like the early 1900s and
5:04even late 1800s were incredible. Like I
5:08think a lot of people would be surprised
5:10at the level of muscular development
5:12that you saw back then because when you
5:14look at other sports like basketball for
5:16example, there is a night and day
5:18difference between what basketball
5:20players played like in the early 1900s
5:22versus what they play like now. It
5:24almost looks like a completely different
5:25game. But when you look at bodybuilders,
5:29especially in the natural realm, the
5:31guys in the early 1900s
5:34can hold their weight against some
5:36really good natural bodybuilders today.
5:38I feel like that's quite unique.
5:40>> Yeah. And I think, you know, I was in
5:41the Canadian Hall of Fame for ice hockey
5:43yesterday and like looking at the masks
5:45from like the 1970s versus now like
5:47sports evolve and when you look at say
5:49Eugene Sandeo who's the first modern
5:51physique star, Arnold Schwarzenegger has
5:53a statue of Sandeo in one of his many
5:54homes. You can see like they're lean,
5:56they're muscular, they're athletic,
5:58they're very strong. Someone like Arthur
6:00Saxon who did a bent press record that
6:01lasted, you know, for a century. They're
6:03very extraordinary for one of a better
6:06phrase. But I think what people need to
6:08remember is when you look back at those
6:09physiques, they're the freaks. And I
6:11mean, you know, right, and I mean that
6:12from like a place of love and respect
6:14for them, but they're the people who
6:15would really be outstanding in any
6:18generation. The things that are
6:20different is the exercises that they
6:22use, the equipment that they had access
6:23to, and then what you need to do is look
6:25at the broader base. So when you look at
6:27Eugen Sande, you could say, "Oh my god,
6:29you know, like I'd love to look like
6:31that guy."
6:32>> But Sande would look be that guy in the
6:341950s, the 1980s, the 2020s,
6:36>> it's the broader base, I think, which
6:38has changed so much. So the basketball
6:40analogy is actually spot on,
6:41>> but we're looking at the the individual
6:44superstars, whereas the average man or
6:46woman was quite slender, uh quite
6:48scrawny, sometimes realistically,
6:50carrying a lot of body fat, depending on
6:51who they were, and not particularly
6:53strong in in comparison to our modern
6:55>> very true
6:56>> standards. So when you look at how
6:58fitness has evolved, we've always had
6:59the freaks or the super responders or
7:02whatever you want to call them, but the
7:03the base
7:04>> Yeah.
7:05>> has risen so much in terms of people's
7:07strength, their expectations of
7:09strength, their physiques. So it's so
7:11inspiring, I think, to look at those
7:12physiques from the past, but then it's
7:14so heartening to see how more people
7:17have become bigger and stronger over
7:19time as things have evolved. That's
7:21actually a really good point because
7:22like yeah if we were to time travel and
7:23go back to like 1900 there would be like
7:25one Eugene Sandow whereas now with
7:28respect to him there are thousands if
7:31not millions of physiques like that
7:33across the globe. Right. So I I I
7:35actually agree with your point that like
7:37the yeah the
7:38>> the average physical culture enthusiast
7:41in 2026 is a lot more jacked than the
7:45average enthusiast would have been in
7:471900. Right. just because we have more
7:49information now essentially. Is that
7:50what you you'd say the difference is
7:51>> more information but just access to
7:53things. So if you think about the
7:55equipment, right? So if I'm Eugen Sando,
7:57it's you know 1870s Belgium where he
7:59would have trained under a man named
8:01Professor Aia. I'm lifting with probably
8:03fixed barbells. So you know I would have
8:05my 90 lb barbell then my next barbell
8:08would be 110 pounds and 150 pounds and
8:11180 pounds maybe if I'm lucky. It was
8:13hard for them to adjust the weights. So
8:14I have relatively fixed weights, kettle
8:16bells, dumbbells and some early machines
8:19kind of pulleys and different things but
8:20nothing like what we'd have today.
8:22>> So the equipment that we have you know
8:24now in like a planet fitness which is
8:26often you know reviled
8:28>> is light years ahead of what you would
8:30have had in the 1870s or 1880s. So the
8:32equipment has changed and but then it is
8:34knowledge of training protocols, it's
8:36access to nutrition, it's access to that
8:39knowledge itself. So there's so many
8:41reasons how and why things have changed,
8:42but also just standards have changed,
8:44right?
8:44>> So now we have set standards. Like if
8:46you're doing a bodybuilding show, you
8:48know that there's a certain symmetry
8:49that you need to hit, a certain leanness
8:51you need to hit, a certain muscularity
8:52you need to hit. If you're doing
8:53powerlifting or strong man, strong woman
8:55or Olympic lifting, there are certain
8:57standards that you need to meet.
8:59>> A 100 years ago, you didn't really have
9:01strength standards, per se, or physique
9:03standards, per se. They were figuring it
9:05out in real time. So, it's both the kind
9:08of logistics of fitness, but then the
9:10kind of philosophies or ideas around
9:11fitness as well.
9:13>> Yeah, that's really interesting because
9:14like one one thing that that I've heard
9:16and that I think has some legitimacy to
9:18it
9:19>> is that okay, listen, like if guys were
9:22able to look like that back then with
9:24the equipment that you described,
9:28what is all of this science actually
9:30for? Like, what is it doing?
9:33[laughter]
9:34>> Your life is a lie. But I no but I think
9:36I think that like no but I think there
9:37is a kernel of truth to it in the sense
9:39that like
9:40>> these guys were able to build impressive
9:42physiques without any of that. So I
9:45think it is reasonable to question like
9:47what is the actual value of it then?
9:49Like is it is just like exercising and
9:51just like lifting some stuff and like
9:53just doing some hard work actually
9:54enough for the average person if people
9:56were able to look like that?
9:57>> I mean I'm 34 so I'm like you just move
10:00without pain. You're fine. I [laughter]
10:02fair enough. I understand though where
10:04people are coming from right and there
10:05is obviously always a backlash against
10:07certain things but when you look at and
10:09I will go back to it because it's such
10:10an important point for people to realize
10:12Eugene Sandow you know John Grimmik Mr.
10:15America winner probably one of the best
10:17physiques in my opinion but that's
10:18preference you know Reg Park Arnold all
10:20of these people come from the same
10:22genetic cloth
10:23>> and like that is a really important
10:25thing for people to realize when you
10:26look at pre-steroid physiques and you
10:28say you know I want to look like that I
10:29understand getting inspiration from
10:31those things
10:32>> but these were people who are
10:33hyperresponders like again Sando if you
10:35read his book uh strength and how to
10:37obtain it published in 1897 you'll see
10:39that he his diet advice is everything in
10:42moderation I eat sweets I smoke cigars
10:45you know, I don't really monitor protein
10:47intake. His exercise advice is kind of
10:49like just go figure it out, you know,
10:51you'll be fine [laughter]
10:53>> because for him that was fine, you know.
10:55And his contemporaries, Arthur Saxon,
10:57George Hacken Schmidt were very vocal
10:59about I was born strong.
11:01>> Yeah.
11:01>> I've always been strong, right?
11:03>> I've never been a weakling. I've always
11:05responded well to lifting weights.
11:06George Hackenmid in the 1940s wrote that
11:09he didn't see the value in training
11:10whatsoever. So he was a wrestler and a
11:13prototype physique star. He said, "Yeah,
11:15my training for wrestling was just
11:16wrestling people. My strength training
11:19was just doing strongman shows. I didn't
11:21train. I don't see the value in it."
11:23>> Yeah.
11:23>> So think think about that. You know what
11:25I mean? Where you have people who are so
11:27>> Yeah.
11:27>> genetically predisposed to muscle
11:29building that they can say, "Nah, your
11:31training doesn't hurt, you know, like
11:33just lift weights. You figure it out.
11:34You'll be fine."
11:35>> Yeah. I I think like uh one of the like
11:39one of the things someone could say
11:40though would be like okay like yeah we
11:43acknowledge that like genetics are a
11:45huge thing like that's true but like has
11:49science-based training actually raised
11:51the standard of what's actually
11:52achievable by much right
11:54>> and I think the answer is yes but the
11:58problem is it's been raised to an extent
12:00that the natural physiques now people
12:02just don't believe they're natural
12:03anymore right so they basic so people
12:05have basically online especially set the
12:07bar at whatever physique in the 1930s
12:10was the best is the best physique of all
12:12time. That's as good as you can get
12:13naturally. But if you were to actually
12:15look at the top natural pros today, like
12:16a Brian Dosta, right?
12:19>> They look way better than anybody looked
12:21in the 1930s, the problem is people
12:23don't believe that he's natural, right?
12:25So that that becomes that becomes a
12:27problem, right? Um so there there so
12:29there's that. And then I think the other
12:30thing is I think people still kind of
12:32like misconstrue what the purpose of
12:35science in fitness is. Um, and a lot of
12:38this is due to to social media and
12:40creators and this sort of thing where
12:41it's often marketed as this thing that
12:45will help you achieve optimal like if
12:48you're not doing this you won't be able
12:50to build a good physique or much less
12:52your best physique right whereas I think
12:54in reality what the science of fitness
12:55is trying to do is figure out what works
12:59what the key principles are and what
13:01things don't work and that you don't
13:03need to waste your time on right so it
13:04becomes much more of an efficiency thing
13:06rather than an optimization thing. But
13:08what tends to you know click on social
13:10media are the optimization things which
13:13does exist like some studies do try to
13:14figure out which is a little bit better
13:16than this other thing and oh can you get
13:18that extra 5% or whatever
13:20>> but so much of it is just trying to
13:23identify key fundamental principles and
13:25I think going back to what you said
13:27about sandout right in his book like
13:29sure he had some of those key
13:31fundamental principles like for one he
13:32had the genetics he was training at all
13:35>> he was chilled he probably didn't have a
13:36lot of stress right Or maybe not. I
13:38don't know. You You might know better
13:39than
13:39>> people diseases. We're quite bad.
13:40>> Okay. Fair enough. Okay. Either way,
13:42good genetics and training at all. Okay.
13:44[laughter]
13:45The reason I said that is you said like,
13:46"H, smoke a little bit. Not a big deal.
13:48You can yada yada." Like he seemed like
13:51just based on that writing, more of a
13:52chill guy. But here's the interesting
13:54thing. What what I found, and I think it
13:56was Sand, you can correct me if I'm
13:57wrong, but one of his key principles was
14:00make sure that you really thoroughly
14:02chew your food. Okay? which is like,
14:05okay, I mean, not a terrible idea. Like,
14:08we don't want anybody to choke. Maybe
14:09it'll improve digestion a tiny bit, but
14:11like I wouldn't put that anywhere near
14:16>> the base of the pyramid, right?
14:17[laughter] It's like we're talking about
14:18caloric intake, protein,
14:20>> chewing 15 times,
14:21>> right? Chewing 15. [laughter] Right.
14:23Right. So, I think that like what the
14:24science has done over the last century
14:27is help us identify that okay, caloric
14:30intake is really important, protein
14:31intake is really important. How many
14:33times you chew your food, not super
14:36important, [laughter] not not as
14:37important. Whereas, I think when you
14:38look back in history, you can see all of
14:40these things that people made a big fuss
14:42about that science essentially like
14:44showed was not actually a key player.
14:46>> Yeah.
14:46>> And there's three things going on when
14:48you say that, which I which I and I love
14:50I love this type of questioning. The
14:52first is when you look at people's
14:55disillusionment with you know science
14:57space lifting or natty or not or all
14:59these things online we have to
15:01acknowledge that fitness has always been
15:02full of shysters okay so Eugene Sando
15:04world's most perfect well specimen he
15:07sold dumbbells and we have some of them
15:08on the table there and he would tell
15:10people I built my body through heavy
15:12weight lifting but you don't need to do
15:14that because I and sand out at the time
15:16and say my scientific yes he would use
15:18that term system of physical culture
15:20means you do never you never have to
15:21lift a heavyweight.
15:22>> Interesting.
15:23>> He sold 5 pound dumbbells. He'd say if
15:25you squeeze the dumbbell as hard as you
15:27could, so you'd concentrate because
15:28you're squeezing. Okay.
15:29>> You could develop my physique and his
15:31books and his magazines and I have the
15:33instruction manual there would have
15:35illustrations of Sand's body and you
15:37could track your measurements against
15:38Sande. So, it's all very scientific. In
15:41the early 1900s,
15:41>> Grab that if you can. I want to see what
15:43this looks like.
15:44So, so what I'm holding right now is
15:47something I've never held before, but
15:49it's it's a dumbbell that has springs
15:51running through the middle.
15:53>> And so I guess he would just tell you to
15:55just literally like squeeze the handle
15:56of the dumbbell.
15:57>> And you would know that you're
15:58concentrating because when you squeeze
16:00the dumbbell, the spring grips go down.
16:01So if the spring grips are fully
16:03compressed, you're you're concentrating
16:05enough. And you would do your bicep
16:07curls, you do some lunges, you do some
16:08overhead presses with the dumbbells
16:10while squeeze the whole time.
16:12>> Don't let up. And this would build your
16:15sand out physique. Okay,
16:16>> that's insane. Okay, so for context,
16:18this dumbbell weighs probably about five
16:20pounds, maybe less.
16:21>> Yeah. And you're a strong guy, so you
16:22have all the spring grips in there. We
16:24were talking off air, you know, you
16:25would start off maybe three spring grips
16:27and then progressive overload.
16:28Obviously, you would add another and
16:29another, and you've now hit your
16:31strength standard for 1900s.
16:33>> Insane. So I mean like the reality is
16:35like there is there are very few people
16:38on the planet for whom this would be a
16:40sufficient enough stimulus for any
16:43muscle [laughter]
16:44>> anything this is like a water bottle in
16:47my hand right
16:47>> and Sandown knew that and this is the
16:50key thing okay so he built his body
16:51using heavy barbells dumbbells kettle
16:53bells but he knew when he was selling
16:55these in the 1900s right people don't
16:57have access to that equipment first and
16:58foremost people are scared because heavy
17:01weight training is not the norm you know
17:03for a lot of people still not the norm
17:04where they don't want to p push
17:05themselves in terms of lifting heavier
17:07weights. So he said, "Well, you know,
17:08there's doctors saying that lifting
17:09heavy weights is dangerous. So I'm going
17:11to sell these." Oh, and also I'm selling
17:13these around the world. You could buy a
17:16sando dumb dumbbell like this in India,
17:18in South Africa, in Chile, in China, in
17:21Japan, in Europe, all over the world.
17:23But if I'm selling equipment all over
17:25the world, it needs to be light, right?
17:27So you have someone like Sande who said,
17:29"When I was measured by Dudley Allen
17:31Sergeant, a Harvard physical
17:32educationalist, he said I had the
17:34world's most perfectly developed body.
17:36using my patented premium blend,
17:40proprietary blend of fitness, I'm going
17:42to get you there faster,
17:44you know, easier and efficiently using
17:47my system. So, at the very birth of our
17:50modern fitness industry, you have a
17:52genetically blessed, you know,
17:54bodybuilder
17:56willingly selling something to his
17:58client base around the world that he
18:00knows doesn't truly match up. And now
18:03people then were very deconditioned like
18:06they were obviously had a much better
18:07like cardiovascular base in terms of
18:09they walked a lot more etc. But any sort
18:12of intervention would produce some
18:14stimulus, right? So the dumbbells,
18:16people say, "Oh, this looks great." You
18:18know, I feel much healthier. But you'd
18:19see their physiques because they'd be
18:21submitting photos to muscle magazines in
18:22the early 1900s and it wouldn't change a
18:24lot, you know, from year to year. But I
18:26think it's important for people to know
18:27that context of disillusionment because
18:29that repeats. You know, when you look at
18:32Joe Weider and Bob Hoffman and people
18:34who start selling supplements in 1950s
18:35and 1960s, they're using images of
18:38bodybuilders and weightlifters who have
18:40taken steroids, but they're saying, "No,
18:41no, no, no. He gained 20 pounds of
18:43muscle using my weight gain powder,
18:46>> you know, and it just the psycher
18:47piece." So, I understand why people get
18:49disillusioned. Yeah.
18:50>> Because there's a it's embedded. There's
18:52a history of disillusionment for some,
18:54not all. So I think that's an important
18:55piece. The second piece is people need
18:59to understand breath and depth when it
19:00comes to science.
19:02>> There has never been a point in human
19:03history where people have been this
19:04strong
19:05>> and that is just undeniable. And you can
19:07talk about genetic freaks etc.
19:09>> Both on an absolute scale and in terms
19:11of the average person like like you will
19:13walk into any LA Fitness, Good Life,
19:15what what have you and like see people
19:17squatting three plates, four plates per
19:19side. Like even 10 years ago when I was
19:23doing it, I would be the strongest guy
19:25in the gym doing 225 two maybe 315
19:28pounds. Like now
19:30>> there are like 12, 13 year olds doing
19:33that. You know, it's pretty insane.
19:35>> My generation 2, three, four.
19:36>> What's my strength standard? Two plate
19:38bench, three plate squad, four play
19:39deadlift. Two, three, four. High
19:41schoolers now are hitting that.
19:42>> But it's like frogs in a pot. You know
19:44where you you put the frogs in the
19:45boiling. I don't actually do this. It's
19:46a good metaphor. Frogs are in a pot. You
19:48start boiling the water. They don't
19:50realize until it's too late that they're
19:51being boiled to death. Again, it's a
19:52metaphor. It's not something that I do.
19:54Profess. But, you know, people don't
19:56realize how imperceptively strength
19:58standards have changed both at an
20:00absolute level. So, you know, a halfthor
20:02deadlift for example, but also like an
20:04LA, you know, a good life where you go
20:06in and there's people on the platform.
20:08So, people I think miss that. And then
20:09the final piece is more people are
20:12lifting weights. They're being exposed
20:13to weight training than ever before. So
20:15if we just think about the catchment of
20:18fitness. So if you're in high school
20:19now, chances are you're exposed to
20:21weight training in some way, shape or
20:22form because fitness has become more
20:24popular. You know, your parents or your
20:25grandparents or sibling may be
20:27introducing you to weightlifting or
20:28bodybuilding at an earlier age. So the
20:30general catchment area has increased.
20:32There's more access to gyms. There's
20:34more access to information. So when you
20:35look at, you know, a world natural
20:37bodybuilding competition and you see the
20:38winner, it's like, well, there's no way
20:40he's natural. It's like, well, no, there
20:41is because there's more people being
20:43exposed to it. And it's like, you know,
20:45the Bulgarian weightlifting system in
20:47the 1990s, they would say for every one
20:48athlete on the platform, there's 10,000
20:50bodies. Now, again, a metaphor, pro, not
20:52killing weightlifters. But, you know,
20:54for that one person to win a gold medal,
20:57we literally put 10,000 athletes into
20:59the meat grinder and we just see who
21:01comes out at the end.
21:02>> Yeah.
21:02>> And that's what's happening as well. So
21:04I understand the disillusionment, the
21:07disenfranchisement, the suspicion
21:09because some people are genuinely
21:10continuing that long history and
21:11tradition dating back to Sandow.
21:13>> But we also need to understand that the
21:15base the floor has increased and because
21:17that's increased there there are more
21:19people reaching previously, you know,
21:22unthinkable levels of leanness or
21:23muscularity
21:25>> in the same ecosphere that some people
21:27are the liver king, you know. So, it's
21:28truth. It is tricky and and ever since
21:31steroids got introduced,
21:34>> we will never know who it is. Like, it's
21:36it's an unanswerable question, which is
21:38why like
21:39>> as of late, I don't even I'm not even
21:42entertaining it anymore because like no
21:45one can know with any level of certainty
21:47unless they literally fail a drug test
21:49or admit to using steroids who is and
21:51who isn't. Right. So, prior to Yeah. So,
21:54prior to 19 prior to 19 what 40 45
21:58something like this, we can know with
21:59like
22:00>> virtually 100% certainty that no one was
22:03on steroids because testosterone hadn't
22:04been isolated until the mid-30s or
22:06something. Um, but after that,
22:09>> it's always going to be an open
22:10question. Like you you can never know
22:12for certain, right? Um, so it's it's
22:14probably just not even worth looking at.
22:15But I I do agree with you that like um
22:19when you look at the pool like it's it's
22:21it's just math. Like there are going to
22:23be some absolute freaks out there. And
22:26then
22:27>> even even if you were to take some of
22:29those guys in the 20s and 30s and like
22:31>> put them under some good lighting, diet
22:33them down a little bit, give them a peak
22:35week,
22:36>> they're like 90% of the internet would
22:38say they're not natty too in today's
22:40setting, right? Give them a good camera,
22:41good lighting, teach them to pose a
22:43little bit better, shred them down.
22:45>> They're going to look not natty. If you
22:47look at Bobby Pandor, who's a 1890s
22:50physical culturist, not as famous as
22:51Sando, but was kind of seen by like the
22:53sickos, you know, as a Sando equivalent.
22:56Again, good lighting, like insanely
22:57shredded. Yeah.
22:58>> Like, so you could play around with
23:00that. But also like people need to
23:01realize, so even
23:03>> Bob Peoples, one of my favorite strength
23:04athletes of all time, 1940s, he I think
23:07he pulled like 700 lb in a deadlift.
23:09When he trained for that, he had a
23:10wooden barbell on his Tennessee farm.
23:13There were wooden baskets on either end
23:15of the barbell. He would go to the
23:16quarry, get a rock, put it into his
23:18barbell. He then pulled on a barbell
23:21which had no slack whatsoever, was using
23:24oneinch plates and was probably about 5
23:25to six feet in diameter. Pulled 700 lb.
23:29>> Put that in our modern gym environment.
23:33And again, he's pulling, you know,
23:35probably,000 pound like, you know, we
23:37can't obviously extrapolate, but like if
23:39he could do that, then what would he do
23:40now?
23:40>> Yeah. So again, this is where the kind
23:42of comparison points can sometimes get a
23:44bit squirly because it's like, well,
23:45that's that's the only thing that I can
23:47achieve. It's like, well, no, because
23:48you exist in a different world
23:51>> to them. Both in terms of the training
23:53that you can do, the access to
23:54knowledge, but also like our equipment
23:56is easier.
23:57>> Yeah.
23:58>> You like if I if I have a deadlift bar,
23:59it's not easy pulling like four or 500
24:01lb on deadlift bar,
24:03>> but it's made to move, right?
24:05>> Like there's slack. It's going to move
24:06with me. There's little rings that I can
24:08put my fingers on for standardization.
24:10So, it's lovely to have comparisons. I
24:13think it's wonderful for people to look
24:14at the past because that's what I do
24:15obviously for a living.
24:17>> But we always need context. And the
24:18internet isn't great on nuance or
24:21context. I don't know if you know this,
24:22but the internet isn't great on nuance
24:24nuance or context.
24:25>> Yeah, this this is why I want to do the
24:26podcast, right? Because we can get into
24:27some of this stuff at at length. Um, was
24:30was Sandal rich? Did he get rich off of
24:32this this freaking thing?
24:33>> He was the world's first modern physique
24:35star, but also the world's most
24:36successful and profitable fitness
24:39entrepreneur. Wow.
24:40>> Before you'd say Arnold Schwarzenegger.
24:41So Sandow was the first modern fitness
24:45industry in and of himself. You look at
24:47Sando, he sold books, he sold magazines,
24:49he did tours around the world, he did
24:50medical speaking tours. In 1907, he
24:53opened up a curative institute of
24:54physical culture in London where you
24:56would come to him to be cured of
24:58illnesses and diseases including cancer
25:00with a 99% success rate.
25:02>> Oh no,
25:03>> that's not true. But he told people it
25:04was a 99% success rate. and he even had
25:07doctors working for him in that center.
25:09He sold supplements. He sold children's
25:11toys. He sold children's corsets. He was
25:13in one of the first uh films ever
25:15recorded by Thomas Edison in the late
25:171890s. So, he was incredibly wealthy,
25:20incredibly rich. Now, he lost all of it
25:22in the first world war. You can feel bad
25:24for him, but he was also very ligious.
25:26He sued many of his rivals into poverty
25:30because he was a ruthless like he did so
25:32much for the general value of fitness.
25:35You know, he was arguably fitness's
25:37first leading light, but he was also
25:39like a stone cold capitalist as well.
25:41So, he was incredibly wealthy. He owned
25:43multiple properties. His name was known
25:45around the world, but he was ruthless in
25:48terms of protecting that image.
25:50>> Wow. And this is so fascinating because
25:52like that is such a an interesting
25:56figure. Yet, I feel like his legacy is
25:58is overall positive. I mean, I feel like
26:00I feel like most people know of Eugene
26:02Sandow as like the father of all this
26:05stuff that we're doing, right? Like he
26:06was like the first jacked guy, like the
26:08first ripped guy, right? And even the
26:10Mr. Olympia trophy to this day is named
26:12after him. I don't know how many people
26:15know him as a Huster, which he was. I
26:18mean, like claiming to like be able to
26:19cure cancer and like knowingly selling
26:23bunk training gear, like
26:26>> pretty bad. [laughter]
26:28It's quite terrible.
26:30>> It's ying and yang, right? There's all
26:31the positives, but then there's the
26:33negatives as well because I think he was
26:35given access
26:36>> in a way that no one had been given
26:38access before. And he he did believe in
26:40the value of fitness for people. He
26:42tried to bring his own training system
26:44into schools. He tried to bring into the
26:46military. He tried to get Britain to
26:48have its own kind of Ministry of Health
26:49before that was really a widespread or
26:51popular idea. So there was so much of
26:54value to Sandra. But he's also, you
26:57know, a businessman, right? You know,
26:58and you know, to quote Jay-Z, I'm not a
27:00businessman. I'm a businessman, you
27:02know. So Sandow is trying to do that.
27:04And I think
27:05>> we we shouldn't, you know, it's hate the
27:07sin, not the sinner. So I think Sande
27:09was able to do that because people
27:10wanted him
27:11>> to be able to do that. And when you look
27:13at, you know, his curative institute of
27:14physical culture, it was such a new
27:17idea.
27:18>> And doctors weren't taught the value of
27:20exercising. They weren't taught the
27:21value of nutrition at that point. Sand
27:23would give medical talks to doctors
27:25about how to build a physique like this.
27:26He would strip down afterwards. They
27:28would look at his body, you know, check
27:29his heart rate, check the muscle
27:31density, etc. So there was a real value
27:34in this. So if you have the medical
27:36profession like literally coming to you
27:38and saying teach us, I could understand
27:40the ways in which you would see yourself
27:42as someone who could answer these
27:44things. So I think the balancing of all
27:46of the good he did and even the Mr.
27:48Olympia Trophy that's modeled on
27:50Sandow's bodybuilding show from 1901,
27:52>> you know. So, the longevity is there.
27:54The influence is there. But you take the
27:56other side of it because that's fitness.
27:58It's good and bad. It's altruistic and
28:01capitalist. It's helping people while
28:02also taking something from their
28:04pockets. Not in the round, but I think
28:06we need to be
28:07>> open to all all the avenues of fitness
28:09whether we like them or not. And Sandai
28:11is a really good example of that because
28:12he was really great for fitness. Yeah,
28:15>> he was an ass, but he was really great
28:16for fitness at the same time.
28:18>> True. Yeah, it's incredible. I mean,
28:20like just just to circle back to this
28:21one more time, like I think an
28:23underappreciated thing that science does
28:26and has done is that if you were to take
28:28this freaking thing, I mean, there are
28:30there are shake weights that exist. So,
28:32I guess people do fall for this, but
28:33like if you were to plop this on social
28:35media,
28:36>> 99% of the fitness industry would be
28:39like, "This is complete bullshit." Like
28:41even even if I was to take this and and
28:43be like, "Guys, got this new thing. It's
28:45called a 5B dumbbell with springs in it
28:47and this is how I built this right now
28:49[laughter]
28:50for
28:52um Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um this is how I
28:54built my physique. This is how you're
28:55going to build your physique." People
28:57are going to say,
28:58>> "I know that's not true because you need
28:59to train close to failure." Like most
29:01people are going to know that at this
29:02point and like that weight is way too
29:03light and that is complete And
29:05why do we know that now? Well, it's
29:07because of the evolution of the
29:08knowledge base over time. It's because
29:10of scientific development
29:12>> and connected to that which is something
29:13again social media nuance context but
29:16like most exercise scientists or like
29:19evidence-based practitioners lift and
29:20right that's actually a really important
29:22thing to to talk about because if you
29:24look at maybe some of the origins of
29:26modern evidence-based practice you could
29:28look at Thomas Delarm who helped
29:29popularized the 3x10 method he was a
29:32early exercise scientist who trained
29:34using Bob Hoffman's weightlifting
29:36courses in the 1930s in the 1940s he's
29:38working with US veterans, a lot of them
29:41who've damaged their knees and their
29:42their spines through parachuting,
29:44through jumping out of planes. So, he
29:46used the weightlifting methods that he
29:48learned from Bob Hoffman to rebuild
29:51soldiers, you know, their leg muscles in
29:53particular and increased their
29:54hypertrophy, etc. because he married and
29:56Jan Todd and Terry Todd have a great
29:58article on this, but he married his
30:00personal observations, you know, his N
30:01of one for a better phrase with the kind
30:04of scientific method. And there are very
30:06rarely people who are pushing science
30:09who aren't also lifters, right? And I
30:11think it's because sometimes people
30:12like, oh, you know, we have the hardcore
30:14side over here, the train hard side and
30:15the science side. Like I don't really
30:18see that
30:19>> in reality because what I see is a lot
30:21of people who kind of come to science
30:24after lifting.
30:25>> Yeah.
30:26>> Rather than come to lifting after
30:27science. Now there's some famous
30:28examples of people who have done that.
30:29But in the round, it's people who know,
30:32you know, and if you look at a lot of
30:33evidence-based uh people, sounds like
30:35I'm I'm shilling big evidence here, but
30:37anyway, but most of them aren't like
30:39don't train hard.
30:40>> Yeah.
30:40>> Most of them aren't like don't squat or
30:42like, you know, or they're like, oh, you
30:43know, we need to do a certain way that's
30:45completely counterintuitive to what has
30:47been done for the last 30, 40, 50 years.
30:49You don't really see that because there
30:52is a marrying of personal experience
30:54with science. And that's why people can
30:57say, "Well, that doesn't work cuz I know
30:58that doesn't work cuz if I go to a gym
31:00and I just lift a 5B dumbbell for the
31:02rest of my life, I'm going to stagnate
31:03pretty quickly."
31:04>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I
31:05think that's true. I think there is this
31:06false dichotomy where people think like,
31:08oh, on the one hand, you have people who
31:09like have learned in the trenches from
31:12people over the decades, and then on the
31:13other hand, you have people who only
31:14want to look at the scientific
31:15literature, and they're just looking at
31:17numbers and data. And it's like, in the
31:18real world, I think most people use some
31:21combination of both, whether knowingly
31:23or not. Like many of my training
31:26decisions are informed by what my
31:28coaches have told me, what their coach
31:30has told them, what's been handed down
31:31and then a lot of it is also informed by
31:34the scientific evidence, especially when
31:36it comes to like the key principles of
31:37what re I really need to focus focus on,
31:40right? Um, so yeah, I I don't know. I
31:42think it's like a
31:43>> I I I do think it's a another example of
31:46just like black and white thinking. Um
31:48>> because you look at someone like you
31:49know Mike Menser who's in vogue now
31:51again or even like Dorian Yates you know
31:52who's kind of a disciple of Menser and
31:55Arthur Jones like Mike Menser was
31:57talking about like rest periods pushing
31:59to failure he was talking about maximum
32:00efficiency minimum effective dose Dorian
32:03Yates like he called his system like
32:04blood and guts you know if you look at
32:06that [laughter] DV but then when you
32:07talk to him or or you listen to him or
32:09you go to any of his seminars a lot of
32:10it is like okay so we need to get the
32:12most effective you know like the most
32:14effective set blah blah but people just
32:15see Dorian in the Birmingham underground
32:17gym screaming and lift. It's like,
32:20>> no, he was actually a really thoughtful
32:22like dude in terms of how he set this up
32:24because there isn't a strict split.
32:27>> Yeah. No, agree. And and so much of it
32:29is just optics and vibes. So, it's like
32:32you could look at a branch war training
32:34with like,
32:36>> you know, full sweat in in like the most
32:39rugged gym you've ever seen in Texas
32:41and, you know, he's just throwing the
32:44weight around. the plates are clanging.
32:46He could in and sometimes does stop with
32:50like at least five, six reps in reserve,
32:52which again I think is totally fine, but
32:54like it's just weight being thrown and
32:55then it's racked. You know what I mean?
32:57And like people will perceive that as
32:59like the hardest possible training
33:02because of the environment, because of
33:05the optics and the aesthetics of it.
33:06Whereas, if you see someone who is using
33:08like good technique in a polished gym
33:11and they don't have the rugged look,
33:12like maybe they look a little bit more
33:14like a nerd and they have the glasses
33:15on, like they're even if they go to zero
33:19RI and like on an objective level are
33:21training harder than he was on that set.
33:23Again, I'm not saying Branchart Warren
33:24didn't train hard. He obviously freaking
33:26did. But I'm sure there was an example
33:28where he didn't push a set all the way
33:30to failure, right? I've seen them. Um,
33:31and the person with the glasses in the
33:34pristine training environment is going
33:36to be perceived as training less hard.
33:38Um, so I think I don't know.
33:40>> But no,
33:40>> I think I think that's a lot of what
33:41drives those those kind of like
33:45identifiers
33:47>> are just simply the way the person looks
33:50and where they're lifting,
33:51>> right? And like Diamond Gym has come
33:53about, you know, a lot in the last year
33:55and it seems like a really nice
33:56community of people in sense of looking
33:58out for each other. But it's funny
33:59because people like that's hardcore
34:00training. Like clearly they're pushing
34:02themselves. It's like but like what are
34:04they doing? It's like progressive
34:05overload, you know, coming back again
34:07and again, you know, like maybe not
34:08managing rest what I've seen from some
34:10things they say.
34:11>> Like the basic tenants are there. So
34:13then what is okay, well then they're
34:14shouting a lot. There's a lot of
34:15grunting, you know, there's a lot of
34:16like macho male energy going on. Again,
34:18I actually really love the ethos that
34:20they have there.
34:21>> But it's like, okay, but then if I'm in
34:23clinical scientific, you know, gym,
34:26etc., M
34:26>> but I'm going all out with perfect form.
34:29It's like oh actually we're still
34:30sharing the same basic
34:31>> true
34:32>> tenants
34:32>> but just the backdrop has changed
34:34because again there's like different
34:35avenues in fitness and a really funny
34:37example because you mentioned Branch
34:39Warren and I'm legally obliged to say he
34:41fell off a horse in the generation Iron
34:43movie which is the funniest thing
34:44[laughter] in the world. He's like I've
34:45never been injured and then he gets
34:46kicked off a horse. But I was in um
34:49Metrflex uh in Dallas where Branch and
34:52Ronnie Coleman trained and the owner
34:53there like it was such a wonderful
34:55experience. But they were talking about
34:56you know when Ronnie Coleman retired and
34:59Dorian or not Dorian Yates um Jay Cutler
35:01kind of takes the mantle but then Jay
35:03Cutler gets overthrown by Phil Heath and
35:04they'd say like we would look at Phil
35:06Heath training and we say he doesn't
35:08train hard, you know, he's not pushing
35:09himself. He's just using machines. But
35:11then the owner is really perceptive.
35:12He's like you know for all that we
35:13thought that that wasn't real training.
35:15Do you know what we called him? I was
35:16like no what? He goes Mr. Olympia do
35:18>> like so these are the things where it's
35:20like okay it's not what I do it's not
35:22how I train
35:24>> but when I look at the results or if I
35:26look at the basic tenants they're kind
35:27of the same so I think the beautiful
35:29thing about fitness is there's different
35:31>> tribes that you can join you can be in
35:32the hardcore gym spit and sawdust gym
35:34the ultra you know Equinox ultra posh
35:36you know uh looks gym
35:39>> like the basic tenants are the basic
35:40tenants regardless of how you get up the
35:42mountain top
35:43>> yeah okay so so let's go back through
35:45and and kind of maybe we can start at
35:47when this whole thing started and then
35:49I'd like for you to describe how the
35:51training style has changed over time.
35:54Okay. So, I'm going to kind of break
35:55this up into different eras. So, I know
35:57a big part of your work is identifying
36:00when physical culture and bodybuilding
36:02and fitness as we know it now kind of
36:05originated, right? Um, and from what I
36:07understand, it seems to be like
36:09something around like the late 1800s. Is
36:10that right? Yeah. Okay. What did what
36:13did bodybuilding and and training look
36:16like in the late 1800s?
36:18>> I told you five pound dumbbell. No. So
36:20[laughter] five pound dumbbell is part
36:22of it. And genuinely when you look at
36:23exercise equipment in the 1880s, 1890s,
36:25early 1900s, it's a lot of people
36:27selling some variation of this dumbbell.
36:29Wow.
36:30>> Selling pulleys. So like early like
36:32cable machines front of our phrase kind
36:34of more like um a resistance band, you
36:36know, and you could hook it into your
36:37door frame and you could do pulling
36:39exercises. And then also strand pullers.
36:42So again, spring grips again. And you
36:43kind of there's a handle on each side
36:45and there's long springs and you pull
36:46them apart, right? Yes.
36:47>> Like old school. And then calisthenics
36:49and gymnastics. They were really big
36:51back then. You had early weightlifting
36:53culture. So the first international
36:55weightlifting competition is in London
36:57in the 1890s. Weightliftings at the
36:59Olympic Games in 1896. So there's
37:01smaller crowds, especially in Austria
37:03and Germany, who are lifting weights. So
37:05lifting heavy weights, heavy barbells,
37:07heavy dumbbells, heavy kettle bells. But
37:09again, the way they even loaded
37:11>> machinery was very different. So
37:13obviously we have um plate loaded
37:15equipment now. So you have a barbell,
37:17you put on 45 lbs, 35 lb, 10 pounds. See
37:19how I'm converting from kilos cuz I'm
37:21European.
37:22>> Ah
37:22>> yeah, there you go. Skill, right? But
37:24back then you would have globe
37:26equipment. So you'd have these big round
37:28look like soccer balls at the end of the
37:30barbell and you would use sand or shot
37:33or different like small grains that you
37:35would put into the globes to make them
37:37heavier. Gotcha.
37:38>> So the equipment that they would be
37:40training with was very different. And
37:41even how they express strength, mainly
37:44one-handed lifts. Yeah.
37:45>> So for I'm training in the 1890s, 1900s
37:48in a strength gym, it's more one hand
37:50press, bent press. Um it's mainly like
37:53even sometimes a one-handed squat and
37:55then you do your double-handed. So you
37:56do a barbell or a dumbbell. So it's
37:59quite rudimentary in in that period. And
38:01in terms of sets and reps and
38:03progression, it's not that like oft like
38:06like you know you said vibes like
38:07sometimes it is vibes like you have some
38:09weightlifting coaches. Ysef Salai in
38:11London for example ran a gym in PullM
38:13Street. There was a very famous uh
38:15Russian doctor/weight training coach
38:17whose name I'm not going to butcher
38:19began with K and an in I. That's about
38:20it.
38:21>> Yeah, as they do.
38:22>> As they do as they want. So there were
38:24some weightlifting coaches Seabbert in
38:26Germany as well but there wasn't really
38:28systems yet. There was more figuring it
38:30out as you went. along, but a lot of
38:31one-handed kind of bent stuff, you know,
38:34bent press or rotational work, that was
38:36kind of the strength standards alongside
38:38>> five dumbbells
38:39>> and like So, but I feel like this hadn't
38:42broken out into like any kind of
38:44mainstream awareness, right? Because if
38:46people were buying this, but then you
38:47had the I guess athletes and and
38:50wrestlers and gymnasts doing the
38:52actually effective training like that's
38:54what they were doing, but as I
38:56understand it, they were probably a
38:57pretty small group of people, right?
38:59Okay. And and and this is what you look
39:00at when you look at like I don't know
39:02Family Guy or a cartoon depiction of
39:05what old school lifter must Yeah. Yeah.
39:09And you have the big the round bulbous
39:11dumbbells and and that's actually what
39:13it was like. Huh.
39:13>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And it's not until
39:16>> really the 1920s 1930s that you start to
39:18see more systemized training.
39:20>> Okay.
39:20>> So 1939 for example is the first Mr.
39:23America show which is the first
39:24mainstream bodybuilding show in America.
39:26But in the 1920s, 1930s around the
39:28world, you start to see weightlifting
39:30becoming a more standardized sport.
39:31Okay. In the
39:32>> early describe describe weightlifting,
39:33is that with the barbell and the the
39:35snatch and the clean and jerk? Is it the
39:37same lifts or
39:38>> Yes, with with the small little
39:39asterisks. Little asterisk. No, but this
39:41is a great question because
39:42weightlifting is at the Olympics in
39:431896, 1904, and then I think again it's
39:46scheduled for 19 uh4 and 198 world war
39:50gets in the way of that. But before the
39:52first world war, 1914 to 1918,
39:55weightlifting is a mess, you know. So if
39:57I'm doing a competition in France, I'm
39:59using different rules to Germany. I'm
40:00using different rules to Italy and
40:02Britain. It's in the 1920s that a new
40:05weightlifting federation is founded. And
40:06they say that there's three lifts.
40:07>> Okay?
40:08>> There's the overhead press which has now
40:10been eliminated. It was eliminated in
40:121974. So military press, press overhead,
40:14you take it from the ground, you press
40:15it overhead. Okay? the clean and jerk,
40:17which people know, you know, you snatch
40:19it up to your clavicle and then you push
40:20overhead. And then the snatch, which is
40:22bringing the bar overhead without it
40:23touching your body.
40:24>> Yeah. Yeah.
40:25>> So, when weightlifting becomes a
40:27standardized sport, there's three lifts.
40:29Our holy trifecta,
40:30>> h I can say that because I'm Irish. Our
40:32holy trifecta, father, son, etc.,
40:35>> that's when people begin to take it more
40:36seriously because now it's in the
40:38Olympics, we have international
40:39competitions, and we're all using the
40:41same lifts. So in the 1920s,
40:43weightlifting is
40:44>> kind of your starting point in any
40:47strength-based or physique- based
40:48activity. So like when I got into
40:50lifting, bodybuilding was the most
40:52popular paradigm.
40:53>> If it was 10 years after that, it would
40:54have been powerlifting.
40:55>> Now I don't know, hierox, I don't know
40:57what kids do, you know, whatever. But in
40:59the 20s and 30s, you did Olympic
41:01weightlifting for everything.
41:02>> So even when bodybuilding shows began to
41:04come around, a lot of those early
41:06bodybuilders were Olympic
41:07weightlifterss. And even in the
41:08bodybuilding competitions, you would
41:09have to do an Olympic lift to show that
41:11you were really athletic because it was
41:13functional and physique. So when you're
41:15asking about the breakout and the
41:16systems, it's like the 1920s, 1930s when
41:18weightlifting becomes a sport in its own
41:20right. And bodybuilding starting to
41:22become a sport in its own right.
41:23Powerlifting isn't until the 1960s. And
41:26that changes the game as well in terms
41:27of training and equipment, etc. But like
41:29the 20s and 30s, that's kind of a key
41:32point when we start to see physiques,
41:34but also the systems that build them
41:36really evolve.
41:38>> Interesting. And back then, like in the
41:4120s, let's just say, when Olympic
41:42weightlifting started happening, like
41:44were were they lifting barbells like we
41:46as we know them today with like the
41:48loadable plates and this kind of thing.
41:50>> I love these questions. I just got to
41:51geek out. It's wonderful. Yes. Because
41:54in the early 1900s, you have a man
41:56called Alan Calvert. We actually have
41:57some of his books here. the truth about
41:58weightlifting. He had a company called
42:00Milo barbell. And he started off, and
42:03you can see the picture here, selling
42:05globe dumbbells and globe barbells, but
42:08over time the Milo company started to
42:10sell, you know, kind of plate loaded
42:12equipment. Sometimes it was still in the
42:14globe. So, you know, you'd have to
42:15unhook the globe and slide the plates
42:17on. But by the 20s and 30s, you're
42:19getting plate loaded barbells. Now,
42:21they're not really rotating. They're
42:23often 1-in plates, you know, so it's a
42:25more slender barbell, etc. Mhm.
42:27>> That changes in the 1930s when you have
42:29Bob Hoffman who creates York barbell.
42:31York barbell still exists obviously
42:33today. He starts to massproduce kind of
42:36more modern Olympic weightlifting
42:37equipment across the North America. In
42:40England you have PullM Sports doing
42:41something very similar and Thomas Inch
42:43before him. But the equipment is
42:45starting to look more
42:46>> recognizable to what we have today. And
42:48obviously Alica will come around in the
42:5050s and 60s and completely change the
42:51game.
42:52>> But it's starting to look more
42:53recognizable. And because you can load
42:55plates on, it's easier to get stronger
42:58>> because, you know, I'm not going to have
42:59to, okay, give me the, you know, the bag
43:01of sand. I'm going to pour it in. Are we
43:03at, you know, 220? No, it's 215. Okay,
43:05pour more in. It's standardized. So I,
43:07and if I can standardize my weights, I
43:10can start to plan in advance, you know.
43:12So, okay, we're starting off, you know,
43:14140 pounds. Okay, in six weeks time, I
43:16need to get to 170. You can start to
43:19work backwards because it's easier to
43:20standardize everything. So that's where
43:22the equipment is the same, not the same,
43:24but you know, more recognizable for us
43:26in 2026,
43:27>> but the systems begin to evolve around
43:29it as well.
43:30>> Okay. So it has been about a hundred
43:31years that we've had the barbell with
43:33plates on it.
43:34>> Yeah, give or take. That's a good
43:35metric.
43:35>> Um, now one of the other things I want
43:38to talk to you about is like what kind
43:39of exercises would they do? So you did
43:40talk about, you know, they were doing
43:41the they were doing the overhead press.
43:42Okay. Classic. Clean. I don't know many
43:45bodybuilders who do cleans anymore. That
43:46seems to be niche down in the in the
43:48Olympic side. um clean and jerk or sorry
43:51I said clean snatch mo bodybuilders are
43:54not doing snatch sometimes they'll do
43:55snatch grip shrugs or like [laughter]
43:57snatch grip but like they're not doing
43:58the snatch they're not doing the clean
44:00and jerk um so what other like was that
44:04basically it because like I just pulled
44:05this book out and I'm seeing an image
44:07here of a gentle [laughter]
44:09>> doing what's called the bent press now I
44:10have I have seen this but only because I
44:13have seen books like this I don't see
44:14anybody doing this exercise where you're
44:16like
44:17>> bent over to one died.
44:19>> Martine's license, the strongman did it
44:21for a little bit.
44:22>> Uh, true, true, true.
44:25>> In bodybuilding, no. Jesus.
44:26>> Yeah. In bodybuilding, I'm seeing zero.
44:28Zero. Literally zero.
44:29>> Um, so like, okay, let's let's think
44:32about like, okay, the 20s was, you know,
44:34a lot of Olympic lifting and this kind
44:36of thing. And then obviously a lot of 5B
44:37dumbbell junk probably still. Um, and
44:40then in the 30s, who who is who are a
44:42few people who like break out as like
44:44big bodybuilders? There are there a few
44:46names tip a tongue, but they're not
44:47coming to me right So John Grimick is
44:49John Grimick is who I was thinking
44:50about.
44:50>> He's the most famous and just an
44:52incredible physique but again an Olympic
44:53weightlifter you know. So he went to the
44:56Olympics with the US weightlifting team.
44:57So he cleaned he did snatches but then
44:59he would do bodybuilding exercises. But
45:01it's right, you're right to ask me about
45:03the bodybuilding exercises because Jeff,
45:05if nothing else comes of this, please,
45:08for the love of God, if I never again in
45:10my life see why did Bronze era lifters
45:12have such flat chest and then their
45:13response like, well, they thought big
45:14chests were feminine or, you know, they
45:16they didn't have bench presses.
45:18[laughter] Okay, in the 1890s, 1900s,
45:20they didn't have a bench press. If you
45:21look even at a vid, there's a video
45:23online of Reg Park, Arnold
45:25Schwarzenegger's, you know, kind of idol
45:27doing a 500 pound bench press. He's
45:29lying flat on a bench. People deadlift
45:32the bar up to him so that he can then do
45:35his bench press. The squat st or the
45:37bench stands are very rare.
45:40>> Okay, if we look at the 1930s, they're
45:42doing a pullover and press a lot of the
45:43time. So, you're on the ground as
45:44pullover and floor press. But even you
45:46think about the like the back squat,
45:48people are squatting in the 20s and 30s,
45:50but squatting with a flat foot. Yeah,
45:52>> you you know what I'm about to talk
45:54about. Before the 1920s, when you
45:56squatted, it would be on your tippy
45:57toes. You'd probably be holding five,
45:59I'm not like fixated on them, but five
46:01pound dumbbells at your sides or you
46:02might have a light dumbbell or a barbell
46:04across your back, but you'd be squatting
46:06up on your tippy toes.
46:07>> Why? Why on your tippy toes?
46:08>> Because this is the convention from
46:09gymnastics and calisthenics. And they
46:11didn't have squat stands. So, a lot of
46:13early exercises were, well, what are the
46:16gymnasts doing?
46:17>> Okay, let's just load that in some way,
46:19shape, or form. You're right. When you
46:21talk about, you know, flipping it over
46:22where it's perpendicular to you onto
46:23your back. Milo Steinborn, a German
46:26immigrant to the US, helped to
46:27popularize that in the 20s and 30s where
46:29you would be standing and the barbell is
46:31standing directly beside you and then
46:33through physics and look, you would flip
46:35the barbell onto your back, but Milo
46:38squatted flatfooted so with your feet on
46:40the ground. Okay.
46:41>> And this is like, you know, that scene
46:42in Back to the Future where Marty hears
46:46like or is it Mark Barry here's Marty
46:48playing like the rock and roll music?
46:50Your kids are going to love it, right?
46:51[laughter] But like that's kind of when
46:53Milo Steinborn squats flat foot, it's
46:55like, "Oh my god,
46:56>> we can now do this heavy. We can now
46:58lift heavy."
47:00>> So this back squat helps to bring a lot
47:02of breakout stars. And it's funny, a
47:05huge breakout star in the 1930s, isn't a
47:07bodybuilder by today's metrics, but it's
47:10a guy called JC Heis. So JC Heis is the
47:13original Goad plus 20 rep squat person.
47:17>> Explain what GoMad is, just in case
47:19they're not affiliated. So, if someone
47:20has never done the worst type of dirty
47:22bulking, [laughter] uh, the gallon of
47:23milk a day.
47:24>> Gallon of milk a day. G O M A D.
47:26>> Yeah. Goat. In addition to what you're
47:28usually eating.
47:28>> Have you ever done goat?
47:29>> I did go. I did go. Yeah.
47:31>> I should do goat again.
47:32>> You shouldn't do gad. [laughter]
47:34>> That's like a What kind of milk were you
47:36doing? Were you doing
47:37>> milk%? This isn't like a maha thing, but
47:40we we tend to do whole milk in Ireland.
47:42>> Really?
47:42>> Whole milk for Gomead?
47:44>> Yeah. Yeah.
47:44>> Oh, whole milk is nasty.
47:46>> That's why I say you do it one and done.
47:47That's why
47:48>> it's one and done. But
47:49>> it was fun though.
47:50>> It was fun while it lasted. I'm now
47:51[laughter] 10 years older than when that
47:53happened.
47:53>> So, but you have someone there's a
47:55fitness writer in the 1930s, Mark Bry,
47:57and he says the main ideal is huskiness.
48:00>> Wait, he did go in the 1930s.
48:02>> Yeah. Yeah.
48:03>> A gallon of milk a day in the 30s.
48:05>> He was a farm boy.
48:06>> Wow. I did not know that.
48:08>> So Mark Barry says, "Listen, don't mind
48:10about looking scrawny or lean. You want
48:12to look husky. So you want to look big
48:14and you know, etc." So he'd say, you
48:16know, eat to excess and do 20 rep
48:18squats.
48:19>> So JC Heis eats to excess, does 20 rep
48:22squats, sends photographs of himself, he
48:24gains 40 pounds in a month, sends
48:26photographs of himself to Mark Barry,
48:27and he becomes like the poster boy for a
48:30type of bodybuilding in that era because
48:33you don't have bodybuilding shows yet.
48:34So it's like, look how strong I am, look
48:35how big I am. So, he's a breakout star
48:37in the 1930s and gets lots and lots of
48:40men and boys to do heavy 20 rep squats
48:44and the gallon of milk a day challenge.
48:46And then you have more conventionally
48:49aesthetic people like John Grimick who
48:52are doing deadlifts and even how they
48:53deadlifted back then is very different
48:55to how we do it now. Squats, you know,
48:57the Olympic lifts were kind of his core
48:58pieces and you're starting to see some
49:00specialization like bicep curls, tricep
49:02extensions, stuff like that.
49:04>> Okay. I was just about to ask about
49:05that. What what was different about the
49:06deadlifts back then?
49:07>> There's different ways of deadlifting as
49:09we know now.
49:10>> Sumo versus conventional is that it
49:12>> you know without the I won't go into
49:14remember when sumo had like the weird
49:15sexual undertones to it like pum
49:18no so nothing like that. Um so there was
49:20different ways to deadlift. So there was
49:22the English style deadlifting where you
49:24would keep your heels together and your
49:26po toes pointed out and then you would
49:28pull your deadlift. Yeah.
49:29>> Okay. Okay. Ooh.
49:30>> For no reason other than Well, this
49:32makes it harder.
49:33>> Yeah. I was going to say.
49:35stability and balance would be a
49:36challenge.
49:37>> Yeah. So it's like, oh, this is stricter
49:38form. So this clearly, you know, in the
49:40same way that people say, well, a
49:41military press can't have any body
49:42English.
49:43>> So some countries would say you can, you
49:44know, you can kind of bend backwards and
49:46push with the English style deadlift,
49:48the heels together, toes pointed out.
49:50You didn't really have sumo yet. That's
49:52more a consequence of powerlifting
49:53becoming sure.
49:54>> But you would have kind of snatch grip
49:56deadlifts. You would have the English
49:57style deadlifts. You would have people
50:00deadlifting with a very rounded back.
50:02Like if you look at a stiff leg deadlift
50:04from the 1920s, 1930s, the legs are
50:06perfectly straight, obviously
50:07stifflegged, but the back is completely
50:09rounded.
50:10>> Interesting.
50:10>> And they're being told, you know,
50:11sometimes stand on a box so you can
50:13really extend accentuate the back
50:15completely rounding under load.
50:17>> I mean, cool. I mean, it's what people
50:19would call a Jefferson curl these days,
50:21right? I don't know. Yeah, it's actually
50:22like
50:23>> quite popular even for people. seen
50:25people standing on a box as you're
50:26describing with the the spine completely
50:29flexed completely bent over and uh yeah
50:32they're just curling and uncurling the
50:33spine and if as long as you're not a lot
50:35of people freak out about this and think
50:36it's dangerous but you know it does work
50:38as long as you don't go heavier than
50:39what you can handle and you know start
50:40light but
50:41>> this is the beginner program so on the
50:43on the plane over here I was looking at
50:45a workout program from the 1930s and it
50:46was like okay do your deadlift uh do
50:48your stiff-legged deadlift do a military
50:50press and then do a row like a bent over
50:52row
50:52>> just one workout
50:53>> yeah and do this deadlift leg deadlift
50:55military press row.
50:57>> It's not bad. It's not bad.
50:58>> Not terrible. Yeah. No. Yeah.
51:00>> But there's like do 15 reps, you know,
51:02with the stiff leged deadlift bent over.
51:04I'm like
51:05>> I don't think a beginner needs to
51:07>> True. True.
51:08>> fully round their back under load. Maybe
51:10maybe I'm a glassback. Maybe I'm getting
51:11it wrong, but maybe not.
51:14>> No, I would agree with that. It also I
51:15mean I don't know. I'm sure that's just
51:16one workout. And I a pet peeve of mine
51:18is when people like judge
51:21the value of a program off of one
51:24workout. It happens to me all the time.
51:25Like I'll post one leg workout and
51:26they'll be like, "You didn't do leg
51:28extensions. Why not?" It's like, "Dude,
51:30I do my legs twice a week." Like
51:31[laughter] what are we talking about?
51:32You're not looking at the whole program.
51:34>> More than once in my life.
51:35>> Yeah. But nonetheless, I mean, yeah, it
51:37does feel a little odd. Like it's okay
51:40there for the leg work. We've got a lot
51:42of posterior emphasis there, right? A
51:44lot of hamstring and glute. And then um
51:46with the then there's the overhead
51:48press. Okay, we got some shoulders and
51:50triceps. That's pretty cool. We got some
51:51bent row. We got some back and biceps.
51:54Um
51:54>> not not like I said for a full body
51:56workout is honestly not too terrible. I
51:58would like a a horizontal press would
52:00probably complete it, you know, but you
52:01said they they weren't around yet.
52:03>> You could do a pullover and press. We
52:04were doing a factory floor press.
52:05Sometimes you get into a wrestler's
52:06bridge and then you'd pull the barbell
52:08over your head and you'd push up.
52:10>> Wow. Okay. Okay.
52:11>> Built different.
52:12>> Yeah. For real, man. Wow. Incredible.
52:14Okay. I I can see why this like
52:16nostalgia for some of these eras are
52:18starting to to come back around. Um I I
52:20I think it's really cool. All right, so
52:231930s. Now before we go forward, you
52:25hear people put these um
52:28>> terms on the different eras. So you'll
52:30hear like the bronze age, the silver
52:32age, or no, sorry, not age, not the
52:34bronze age, the bronze era, the silver
52:35era, the golden era. Yeah. Yeah.
52:38[laughter] Um and then I guess the
52:40modern era, right? Are those kind of the
52:41four that you'd hear? bronze, silver,
52:43bronze, silver, golden, mass monster
52:45sometimes.
52:45>> Mass monster era, right? And then and
52:47then modern era.
52:48>> So when let's demarcate those like what
52:50do people consider the bronze era from
52:52when
52:53>> it's funny like and it's a really useful
52:55way of grouping people. I think
52:57sometimes we just need to be careful
52:58about what that says. You know, when you
53:00said bronze age, you're like, "Oh,
53:01they're, you know, prehistoric, premier
53:03modern." It's like, so it's just a thing
53:04for people to keep in mind. But bronze
53:06era, you'd have like up to probably
53:081918, you know. So 1800 to 1890 to 1918.
53:12Silver era, you're probably talking,
53:13like 1918 to 1939,
53:181950 at a bush. Golden era is like 1950s
53:21to 1970s.
53:231970s, 1980s somehow falls through the
53:25cracks, which is bizarre to me because
53:26that's when you start to get
53:27bodybuilders getting leaner. We could
53:29call it the shredded ass era because
53:30that's when they start to get striated
53:32glutes on stage. Mass monster would be
53:34kind of late ' 80s.
53:35>> Think you could say to the modern age
53:37like I'm not sure what you call the
53:38modern age because you have open versus
53:40classic versus true
53:41>> like the mult the multiverse era like
53:44I'm not really sure. It's not bad.
53:45>> Yeah. Patent pending. [laughter] Um but
53:47they're kind of the rough timelines that
53:49people use. I think the the key thing
53:51for people to remember about doing the
53:53eras is some of these eras didn't have
53:56sports like you know so the bronze era
53:58well we had weightlifting but we didn't
53:59have bodybuilding right
54:00>> the silver era where we had
54:02weightlifting and bodybuilding we didn't
54:03have powerlifting you know the golden
54:06era okay we have all of them now but now
54:08we have the Mr. Olympia, which we didn't
54:09have in previous eras, you know, the
54:10mass monster. Well, bodybuilding has
54:12become this
54:13>> like monolithic sport all by itself. So,
54:15how are you going to distinguish
54:16yourself on stage?
54:17>> Muscle and leanness. So, obviously there
54:18would be a m, you know, so it's
54:20important again context and nuance.
54:22Jeez, I'll get this tattooed on my head
54:23at some point, but there are things to
54:25consider when we compare
54:27>> across time. And just because I know
54:29people might get pedantic about this,
54:30we're talking about like bronze, silver,
54:32and golden eras in the context of like
54:34fitness culture because I know then
54:35there's a bronze age which is like a
54:37whole other and then there's film
54:40but this is just Yeah, exactly.
54:41>> Half naked men and women. It's not
54:42[laughter]
54:43>> okay. Um, so we made it up to like the
54:461930sish.
54:48Um, we talked about some of the workouts
54:50there. Um, so let's go into like let's
54:52exit the bronze era now and go into kind
54:54of the silver era. So we're looking at
54:55like around the 40s to 60s give or take.
54:59>> So So what did training start to look
55:01like then and who are some of like the
55:03key figures who help push things
55:04forward?
55:05>> So at a athlete level you start to see
55:07more bodybuilding exercises coming
55:09around. You still have Olympic
55:10weightlifting. You know the US in
55:12particular has a golden age of Olympic
55:13weightlifting in the 40s and 50s where
55:15it's winning gold medals left, right,
55:16and center. But you start see people
55:18doing bodybuilding style training like
55:20and it's sets and reps. It's pushing
55:22hypertrophy, but it's kind of like a
55:24power building a lot of times how I'd
55:26define it, but the power bit might be
55:27different. So, it might be start with
55:29your clean and jerk, your snatch, you
55:30know, your overhead press and then go
55:32into your specialization. Now, you'd
55:34have some people like there's a Canadian
55:36weightlifter, I think he is, uh, Lewis
55:38Abdale, who just specializes on the big
55:40lifts. He's like, I'll do nothing but
55:42squats for three months. I'll do nothing
55:43but presses for three months. Um, but
55:46then you'll have people like Jack Lane,
55:47you know, Steve Reeves, uh, Marvin Ader,
55:50and other people who are going to be
55:51doing bodybuilding style training with
55:54the Olympic lift sometimes thrown in.
55:56>> Now, they can start to do that because
55:58bodybuilding is starting to slowly break
56:00away from weightlifting. So, the Mr.
56:03America show, which in North America is
56:04still like the show in the 40s and 50s,
56:07as I mentioned, you might have a
56:08personality round, which people are
56:10like, "Oh, that's so awful." I'm like,
56:12"Maybe we can probably do it.
56:14>> [laughter]
56:15>> that could come back
56:16>> just like a quick litmus test, you know,
56:17>> wait a personality round. What would
56:19that look like? Would they just ask them
56:21like uh beauty pageant style questions?
56:23Really
56:23>> because the Mr. America show was modeled
56:25on the Miss America competition. If you
56:27win this show, you are the perfect
56:29embodiment of
56:30>> America. So, you need to be strong,
56:32muscular, athletic, but you need to have
56:34that personality
56:36>> to carry that off as well. So they'd
56:38interview people, ask them about their
56:39education, their worldviews, their
56:41philosophies. And
56:43>> I'm sure that go over really well in
56:44modern bodybuilding.
56:45>> Well, just, you know, like when a NFL
56:47player gets concussed, like your bells
56:48ring, they're like, you know, who is the
56:50president? Where are you right now? Like
56:52even the simple questions.
56:53>> I mean, like with with the introduction
56:55of trend into mainstream bodybuilding
56:57alone. Like I feel like that would make
56:59that an absolute disaster. But I would
57:01fully support bringing back a
57:03personality
57:03>> rep
57:05just to see what happens. So you'd have
57:07personality, athletic feats. So which I
57:09loved about that is you could do an
57:11Olympic lift in front of the judges or
57:13you could tell them about one of the
57:15titles you'd won as an athlete.
57:16>> Which I love. It's like, yeah, I'm NCAA,
57:18you know, blah blah.
57:19>> I benched 405 in high school.
57:21>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Right. But
57:22you can't you My girlfriend goes to
57:24another school. You wouldn't know her.
57:25[laughter] Like we never met.
57:27>> Yeah. And there's like no internet to
57:28verify. No cameras. No. No video cameras
57:30probably, right? No. No video cameras.
57:31>> Well, there's video early video cameras,
57:33but like there's no way of verifying it.
57:34Like even you know the guy who did
57:36Bickram yoga and he told everyone that
57:37he won an Olympic gold in weightlifting
57:39for India. So I was watching the Bickram
57:41documentary on Netflix and they
57:42mentioned this and I was like that's not
57:43true.
57:44>> Wow.
57:44>> So you could just say things right.
57:45>> You could just say things. Yeah. You
57:47actually oddly enough again another full
57:48circle moment like you can just say
57:50things again now and and if and if no
57:52one believes you just AI it [laughter]
57:55much
57:55>> easier. Um so I've actually won six
57:57Olympic uh medals in weightlifting. Bob
57:59slay shot.
58:00>> Yeah. We'll put the receipts up right
58:01here.
58:01>> It's all there. Yeah. Right here. Click
58:03and subscribe. Um, but then you
58:05obviously had the physique style, you
58:06know, the physique uh rounds as well.
58:09So, weightlifting still in bodybuilding,
58:10but it's beginning to become diminished.
58:12And people are starting to say, "Well,
58:13how did I win most muscular, best legs,
58:16best chest, best arms, and lose because
58:18he snatches 315 and I snatch 220? Is
58:22this not a physique show? Is this not
58:24So, bodybuilding is beginning to slowly
58:26walk away from weightlifting." And
58:28because of that, people are starting to
58:30specialize on their bodies more. So they
58:32are doing some form of gymnastics still.
58:34Gymnastics has always been a really and
58:36bodyweight exercises has always been a
58:38really important part of bodybuilding
58:39training which kind of fell away I would
58:40say in the last few years. Sometimes
58:42there would be high reps you know they
58:44would have sets and rep schemes and
58:46they're starting to have machines in the
58:48silver era as well which is helping.
58:50Now, sometimes it's terrible. Like,
58:52there's a really funny early leg press
58:54machine, which is basically a wooden uh
58:57platform, not even platform, like box
58:59that's chained to a wall and then you're
59:02going to load on the far side of it the
59:04plates. So, it's trying to fall against
59:06you as you're trying to push it back
59:08against the wall. Incredible ingenuity.
59:11Never do that. Like,
59:13I have plaster boards ever in my house.
59:15If I did that, like just half the wall
59:16would fall on top of me. So, you know,
59:18but you're starting to see that physique
59:20specialization as the Olympic
59:21weightlifterss are becoming bigger and
59:23stronger, etc. And some are crossing the
59:25divide. Like Tommy Kono,
59:27>> the best Olympic weightlifter America
59:29has ever produced. After a weightlifting
59:31competition, he would do bodybuilding
59:33training for 12 or or 24 weeks because
59:35he'd say that's a nice kind of tonic to
59:37what he's doing. So, he won Mr. Universe
59:39shows as well as winning gold medals in
59:41weightlifting because he just did both
59:44because that was the norm in the silver
59:46era. Okay. Now, at the beginning, you
59:49had mentioned um you know the history of
59:53of physical culture with men and women.
59:55So, so far we've we've focused almost
59:57exclusively on the male.
59:58>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:00:01>> Um so, like [clears throat] when when
1:00:02did or was it from the beginning? Like
1:00:04when when do women start to like get
1:00:07into this or were they from day one?
1:00:08What were some examples there?
1:00:10>> So, there were obviously a lot of
1:00:11barriers uh to women in training and
1:00:13even with those barriers or you did have
1:00:15some breakout stars. So in the 1890s,
1:00:17early 1900s, you had Katie Sanduina, who
1:00:19was a strong woman kind of
1:00:20extraordinaire. And what's really funny,
1:00:22especially in like the modern age of
1:00:24women's fitness, is Katie Sanduina in
1:00:26the 1900s got really good press because
1:00:28they were like, "She's so feminine and
1:00:30she's strong." Kind of similar uh
1:00:33discourses and debates that we'd have
1:00:35now. So you have Katie Sanduina,
1:00:36Manurva, and other strong
1:00:38>> Oh, yeah. Manurva I've seen. Yeah. Yeah.
1:00:40She she was kind of like a some kind of
1:00:41stage performer or something like that.
1:00:43strong woman performer but also did an
1:00:45Olympic weight or not Olympic
1:00:46weightlifting but a weightlifting
1:00:47competition against a woman called
1:00:48Madame Yoka. So she had I know the name
1:00:50>> Yoka not Yoka Yoka
1:00:53>> where was this in the states?
1:00:54>> Yeah yeah in the states. So in the Stark
1:00:57Center in Texas Jan Todd who is a
1:00:59pioneer in so many different ways has
1:01:01Manurva's uh championship belt and her
1:01:03cup from winning a weightlifting show.
1:01:05Now Manurva Sanduina Madamea Victorine
1:01:08Victorina wonderful names but they're
1:01:11like stage performers. Yeah,
1:01:13>> when you look at women's physical
1:01:14culture, they were always encouraged to
1:01:16do gymnastics and calisthenics for very
1:01:18misogynistic reasons. You know, you will
1:01:20birth healthier children. You know, we
1:01:22want to stop you getting brain fatigue.
1:01:24So, if a woman studied out of context,
1:01:25I'm in trouble here. But if a woman
1:01:27studies too much, it will cause nervous
1:01:28fatigue of the brain. So, she needs to
1:01:30exercise to balance that out. 1890s, no,
1:01:3319th century in many ways.
1:01:35>> When you start see women weight
1:01:36training, there's different periods. So
1:01:38in the 1930s you have and 1940s Pudgy
1:01:41Stockton who I think people may have
1:01:42seen online she was part of that muscle
1:01:45beach generation the first muscle beach
1:01:47generation the west coast of America
1:01:48Pudgy Stockton is lifting Olympic
1:01:50weights she's hosting Olympic
1:01:52weightlifting competitions she has a
1:01:53women's fitness column in strength and
1:01:55health magazine called barbells but it's
1:01:57be lit
1:01:59on the fence as to whether that's
1:02:01misogynistic or not but it's a really
1:02:02good it's good branding [laughter] right
1:02:04>> but Pudgy Stockton she leaves
1:02:07weightlifting Pudgy Stockton.
1:02:08>> Yeah. So, Abigail Pudgy Stockton. Okay.
1:02:10Pudgy was less of a porative. Her dad
1:02:14used to call she would call herself
1:02:15Pudgy Stockton.
1:02:16>> It was a different time. [laughter]
1:02:18>> We can't judge.
1:02:18>> Wait, we're in the 1910s now.
1:02:20>> No, this is 1940s. 19
1:02:21>> Oh, 1940s.
1:02:22>> There's a big gap.
1:02:23>> Wait, so Manurva in and company the
1:02:25stage performance this would have been
1:02:271890s
1:02:28>> and then there was a pretty big gap and
1:02:30now we're we're up to the 1940s.
1:02:32>> 1930s, 1940s. You have Pudgy Stockton in
1:02:34America. You have Ivy Russell who's an
1:02:36early powerlifter in England in the
1:02:371930s pulls maybe three or 400 pounds
1:02:40which is incredible in that context but
1:02:42then there's another gap and it's only
1:02:44the 1960s 1970s. So my eventual book on
1:02:47women's Olympic weightlifting in the US
1:02:49it's the 1970s you get women like Judy
1:02:51Glenny Karen Marshall and this first
1:02:54generation of incredible women who go
1:02:55into weightlifting at the same time that
1:02:57women like Jan Todd, Cindy Reinhardt and
1:02:59others are going into powerlifting and
1:03:01the likes of Doris Bario are going into
1:03:03bodybuilding. So like modern women's
1:03:05strength cultures, we can trace them to
1:03:07the 1900s. We can trace into Pudgy in
1:03:09the 1930s and Ivy Russell. It's really
1:03:11the 70s and 80s. That's the that's the
1:03:13key period. So to see it compared
1:03:17against the men's kind of fitness
1:03:19sphere. It is actually right that we now
1:03:22have those celebration, you know, more
1:03:23women in fitness, etc. It's right to
1:03:25celebrate that because it's so recent.
1:03:28It's so new.
1:03:29>> Yeah. Wow. Um, but at the same time, I
1:03:32don't know if people would be surprised
1:03:33to know that like even in the 1890s,
1:03:35like there were women who were like
1:03:37lifting weights. How was this perceived
1:03:39at the time? Because like even today in
1:03:42the big 26, you see men being like,
1:03:45"Hey, you know, get out of the weight
1:03:46room and get into the kitchen, right?"
1:03:49Yeah. So, I mean, like I could only
1:03:50imagine like perhaps it was better,
1:03:53maybe not. I would have guessed that it
1:03:54would have been worse and probably like
1:03:56negatively stigmatized for women to lift
1:03:59weights back then or was it accepted and
1:04:02and the same as men?
1:04:03>> Um, it wasn't negatively stigmatized
1:04:06because they were told that they
1:04:07couldn't do it. So, but say that again.
1:04:09>> It wasn't negatively stigmatized because
1:04:11they just couldn't do it. I'll add
1:04:12nuance and context to this. Women could
1:04:15train and had been training in the 1800s
1:04:17with light pound light dumbbells, light
1:04:19Indian gloves, probably five to six
1:04:21pounds max. And you get people saying in
1:04:24the 1850s and 1860s even, okay, I have
1:04:26my men's Indian clubs. They're like
1:04:28bowling pins that you swing around your
1:04:29body and I have my women's Indian clubs
1:04:31over there. And women shall never do
1:04:33>> Oh, I see.
1:04:33>> men's Indian clubs. When you have strong
1:04:35women like Katie Sanduina, Manurva,
1:04:38Victorine, all of these women,
1:04:40>> they are praised because they're the
1:04:43freaks for one. And I mean that in that
1:04:45kind of stage show, they're lifting
1:04:47cannons. They're lifting bank vaults.
1:04:49They're lifting members of the audience.
1:04:51But because they're so unique, they
1:04:53don't get the kind of stigma. But if a
1:04:55woman was to go into Ysef Salai's, you
1:04:58know, basement gym in London in the
1:05:001900s, they would be told to leave. So
1:05:03for the average woman, there's not even
1:05:05a stigma because there's not even an
1:05:06idea that they can access this.
1:05:08>> In the 1930s, when you have Pudgy and
1:05:10Barbells in 1940s as well promoting the
1:05:13idea of women training,
1:05:15>> there is push back. There's a huge push
1:05:16back. John Far and Dominic Moray. He's
1:05:19lovely thing that says more A's than
1:05:20B's, which is like the best pneumonic
1:05:22you can use to remember someone's name.
1:05:24But they found that people are writing
1:05:25into Strength and Health magazine, which
1:05:27is where Pudgy was writing, saying like
1:05:28why are we giving women a platform like
1:05:31this is ridiculous, you know, this is
1:05:32unfeminine, etc. So there's always been
1:05:34a push back. Now the 70s and 80s again,
1:05:37there's a huge push back. So there's
1:05:39always been a stigma regardless of the
1:05:42era. It's just how could women access it
1:05:46with that stigma in place. So in the
1:05:481940s if you were a woman and wanted to
1:05:50train more often than not your brother,
1:05:52your dad or your partner
1:05:54>> introduced you that still held true in
1:05:56the 70s and 80s, but you now had more
1:05:59gyms who were catering to more people.
1:06:00So you could go in, you might start with
1:06:02machines or Jane Fonda or aerobics, then
1:06:05move into weight training. But there's
1:06:07always been a stigma. The difference is
1:06:09how have women been able to access
1:06:11>> strength training
1:06:13>> in light of that stigma or against that
1:06:15stigma. So it's always been there, but
1:06:17what has differed is how women have been
1:06:18able to kind of ignore it. Well, you
1:06:20can't ignore it because it's a horrible
1:06:21thing, but how they've been able to
1:06:23train regardless of it.
1:06:24>> I see. Okay. And then so in the in the
1:06:281890s, it was basically a no-go unless
1:06:30you were some kind of performer, in
1:06:32which case you get a pass. In the 30s,
1:06:34was it the same sort of thing or was it
1:06:36a little more common to see women in the
1:06:38same places that like gymnasiums and
1:06:40this sort of thing as men were?
1:06:42>> You're starting to see it more. Now,
1:06:43that doesn't mean that it's widespread,
1:06:45but you are starting to see it more.
1:06:46There are some gyms who would do Monday,
1:06:48Wednesday, Friday as men, Tuesday,
1:06:50Thursday, Saturday as women.
1:06:51>> You'd have more women training at home.
1:06:53And this is where Bob Hoffman's really
1:06:54important because he was selling
1:06:56barbells and dumbbells for home use.
1:06:58>> So, you don't need to go to a gym
1:06:59because it'll introduce you, right? you
1:07:00know, to to dumbbells. By the time you
1:07:02get to the 70s and 80s, it is still
1:07:05actually largely facilitated by the men
1:07:07in your life. You know, my coach, a male
1:07:10coach from a sport, my brother, my
1:07:12father, my spouse, like it's really only
1:07:15in like probably the 20110s or the 2000s
1:07:19where women can get into it themselves.
1:07:22You know, when I mean themselves, I mean
1:07:24they don't they don't need to have a man
1:07:26shephering them into that space. They
1:07:28can just go into a gym. they can they
1:07:29know what they need to do. They know
1:07:31it's not going to harm them medically,
1:07:32etc. Yeah.
1:07:33>> So, for a long time, access has been
1:07:35mediated through men first and then they
1:07:38would get into it.
1:07:39>> Gotcha. Okay. Okay. All right. So, I
1:07:41want to keep going through the eras here
1:07:42to see how things evolve. So, we're
1:07:44looking at like in the 30s, um you said
1:07:47it was John Grimick, right? Was kind of
1:07:48like the guy and his physique was pretty
1:07:52incredible. um not as shredded as some
1:07:55of the other guys, but the muscle
1:07:56bellies and the the shape was the best.
1:08:00>> Um and he did a lot of I would guess you
1:08:04could say like
1:08:06basic barbell lifts like you know rows,
1:08:09some curls, this sort of thing,
1:08:11deadlifts, right?
1:08:12>> Yeah. Yeah. Um okay. And then so let's
1:08:16move out of and then so the silver era
1:08:18goes through to like the 50s and 60s,
1:08:20right? So, is there any kind of like
1:08:22like around what time do like we start
1:08:26to see um like Larry Scott come in and
1:08:29then you see the pre the Scott curl or
1:08:31now we call it the preacher curl like
1:08:33did did these exercises kind of start to
1:08:35drip in through this this era between
1:08:36like the 40s and 60s.
1:08:38>> So, the 1950s 1960s is probably where
1:08:41because you're getting more specialized
1:08:42bodybuilding training,
1:08:43>> right? Okay.
1:08:44>> And a key moment in that is the Mr.
1:08:46Olympia show. So, first show is 1965.
1:08:49There are other shows before that that
1:08:51are doing this, but the Olympia is the
1:08:53first one because they say physique
1:08:54only. We don't care about your
1:08:55personality. We don't care about your
1:08:57athleticism. We don't care if you've won
1:08:59a bodybuilding show before. Eventually,
1:09:01the Mr. America kind of because of
1:09:02Grimmik, they'd say, well, once you've
1:09:04won it once, you can't re-enter.
1:09:06>> So, it's like I'm a one-time Mr. America
1:09:08because I can't go back. The Olympia
1:09:10said, we just care who's the best. So,
1:09:11if you've won it once, doesn't matter.
1:09:13You just keep going. But because you
1:09:16move away from athleticism, you move
1:09:18away from personality, it's just the
1:09:20physique. Well, then we're going to put
1:09:22everything into developing the physique.
1:09:25>> Okay. Got it. Got it. And then as we
1:09:27come out of the the 60s, now we're into
1:09:29like the 70s and 80s. Okay. So, you
1:09:32know, this is where this is like the
1:09:33Arnold's era, right? Um and so when I
1:09:36look back at footage from from this
1:09:38time, it resembles quite closely to what
1:09:40you see in gyms today, right? So I feel
1:09:42like by the time you get to the 70s,
1:09:44you're looking at a pretty close
1:09:48approximation of the modern era
1:09:50training, would you say?
1:09:51>> Absolutely. Because you're starting to
1:09:53get machines as well. So the 1960s with
1:09:56the universal gym machines and then the
1:09:58knotless machines with Arthur Jones,
1:10:00they're beginning to come into fitness
1:10:01space as well. Before that, you'd have,
1:10:03you know, lat pull downs, some early leg
1:10:05presses, bent like tea bar rows. And if
1:10:07anyone looks at pumping iron, which is
1:10:09said obviously in Gold's gym in Venice
1:10:10Beach, a lot of that equipment was made
1:10:12by Joe Gold himself because he said,
1:10:15"Well, there's not enough good
1:10:16equipment." So, he would make a lot of
1:10:17the machines with the dumbbells as well.
1:10:19So, it looks so similar, but the
1:10:21machines are quite new, you know, in
1:10:23that context.
1:10:24>> But in terms of how they train, it is
1:10:27largely high reps, high sets. You know,
1:10:29people talk about following like the
1:10:30Arnold method. You know, well, if he's
1:10:32doing this, I'll do this.
1:10:33>> But because people can now specialize in
1:10:35the physique because drugs have
1:10:37obviously entered the game in a major
1:10:38way now. They're they're there in the
1:10:3950s and 60s, but they're really
1:10:41exploding in the 70s and 80s. Physiques
1:10:43are getting bigger. That changes how
1:10:44people can train, how they can recover,
1:10:47expectations of what they should look
1:10:48like on stage. But you do still get
1:10:50differences, right, in the 70s and 80s,
1:10:52which is really interesting. So, you get
1:10:54Arnold, high sets, high reps. You get
1:10:56Sergio Olivier, who you know is like the
1:10:59myth Sergio Olivier. He's the man before
1:11:00Arnold. He would train like a madman.
1:11:03Like he would go around the gym with
1:11:04like no rest whatsoever for two hours.
1:11:06>> Oh wow.
1:11:06>> Um and his training partner at the time,
1:11:08Bob Gadget, his peripheral heart action
1:11:10training. Same thing. It's like
1:11:12basically circuits, but you're pushing
1:11:13yourself physically, you know,
1:11:15throughout the entire process. You'll
1:11:17then get your Mike Mener, Arthur Jones,
1:11:20highintensity training because people
1:11:22are just trying to figure out
1:11:25>> the thing that they need to build their
1:11:27physiques and it's creating a lot of
1:11:29>> like variation in training and you get
1:11:32different training camps and you get
1:11:33different equipment that they're using
1:11:35which is quite fun because the 60s and
1:11:3770s
1:11:38>> it's like a really nice battle of ideas
1:11:40going on in bodybuilding about what's
1:11:42the best system and you're getting more
1:11:44and more people trying different things
1:11:45out. Gotcha. Okay. So then the the
1:11:48Mener, so we've got Arnold and Olivia,
1:11:50like those guys kind of ran this
1:11:54maybe late 60s to early 80s type
1:11:56situation. And um
1:11:58>> you know I I I I know like Arnold would
1:12:01just train super high volume, lots of
1:12:03pump work, like lots of really hard
1:12:04training, like marathon workout,
1:12:05sometimes two a day workouts. Um so that
1:12:08was kind of what training looked like
1:12:09then. But then you come to like the late
1:12:1180s, early 90s and you get the Mike
1:12:13Meners and the Dorian Yates, right? And
1:12:15so this is the era where you see strip
1:12:18all the volume back but you just do a
1:12:20couple really hard allout sets to
1:12:22failure right um and that was kind of
1:12:25like I guess the prevailing approach
1:12:28then or was it still on the margins
1:12:30>> it's a competing philosophy got so the
1:12:32high-intensity training Mike is the
1:12:34first poster child of it but really it's
1:12:36Casey Vattor so if people have seen the
1:12:38Colorado experiment we'll put experiment
1:12:40in air quotes um it's hosted by Arthur
1:12:43Jones and Casey Vattor who's Mr. America
1:12:45Bodybuilding Champion in the mid1 1970s.
1:12:48>> Casey and Arthur claimed that in 28 days
1:12:51he gained 30 to 40 pounds of muscle.
1:12:53Yeah. And you've seen the before and
1:12:54after photos.
1:12:55>> And this is Arthur Jones who creates the
1:12:57knotless machines and then creates a
1:13:00system to use the machines trying to
1:13:02promote his highintensity training,
1:13:03right?
1:13:04>> And you have people looking at Casey
1:13:06Vattor and saying, "Well, I want to
1:13:09>> I want to copy that, including Arnold."
1:13:11So Randy Roach in his book Muscle Smok
1:13:13and Mirrors talks about a two-week
1:13:14experiment that Franco Columbo, who's
1:13:16Arnold's friend and a Mr. Olympia in his
1:13:18own right, and Arnold trained with
1:13:20Arthur Jones because they wanted to see
1:13:22if this would be effective. And Arnold
1:13:25quit after a couple of days because he
1:13:27couldn't handle the intensity.
1:13:29>> Really?
1:13:30>> I find that so shocking because Arnold
1:13:31trains so hard
1:13:34like on his own accord.
1:13:35>> Well, this is the interesting thing,
1:13:36right? Because fitness is obviously
1:13:38specific. So Arnold trains really hard
1:13:40in his system, but you know yourself.
1:13:42Like so a good friend of mine does
1:13:44natural stone lifting. Yeah. The first
1:13:45time he took me stone lifting. It killed
1:13:47me because I'd never done it. You know,
1:13:49I wasn't conditioned for that particular
1:13:50thing.
1:13:51>> So Arnold wasn't conditioned in the
1:13:53sense of doing highintensity training.
1:13:55So he quit. And Arthur Jones is like he,
1:13:58you know, he doesn't train hard. He
1:13:59can't handle it. And Franco survived the
1:14:01experiment and then said, actually this
1:14:02isn't for me. I I prefer my own thing.
1:14:04But you have in the 70s people really
1:14:07testing the highintensity training. It
1:14:09becomes more popular with Mike in the
1:14:11late 70s, early 80s in particular when
1:14:13he gets a perfect score on more than one
1:14:15bodybuilding show. And John Little has a
1:14:18really good biography of Mike Menser
1:14:19called American Odysius.
1:14:21>> So you get more people trying it, but
1:14:23then you also get people like Lee Haney,
1:14:24who's probably the most slept on
1:14:26Olympia.
1:14:27>> Yeah.
1:14:27>> Of all time, who's train don't strain.
1:14:30>> I know. Well, it was stimulate don't
1:14:32annihilate, right? Yeah. Yeah. Did he
1:14:33have train don't strain too? I had never
1:14:35heard that one.
1:14:36>> It was just like not easy, but it's much
1:14:38more moderate in the same time that you
1:14:40know Mike and uh Ray Menser and Arthur
1:14:43Jones still learned a little bit at that
1:14:44point are really hitting that high
1:14:46intensity piece. And then you get like
1:14:48your outliers like Tom Plattz who is
1:14:50just
1:14:51>> doing whatever Tom Plattz does when he
1:14:53squats. But even he was influenced by
1:14:55kind of the Mike Mener approach because
1:14:57he would say, "Well, I would squat once
1:14:59>> a month or once a fortnight because I
1:15:01couldn't recover,
1:15:03>> you know, outside of that." And I would
1:15:04deadlift because that would influ in
1:15:06that would kind of influence my recovery
1:15:08for different exercises. So even someone
1:15:10like Tom Platcore
1:15:12to the bone is also looking at well
1:15:14what's my recovery rate in between, you
1:15:16know? So it's starting to bleed
1:15:17together.
1:15:18>> Okay. So, let's I want to start to think
1:15:20about because this is something people
1:15:22are endlessly fascinated by um training
1:15:25splits.
1:15:26>> So, like [laughter] I think as as far as
1:15:29I can tell from what you've said so far
1:15:30like from the 1890s through to like the
1:15:3630s4s it seemed like it was mostly like
1:15:38geared toward athletics and like full
1:15:41body stuff.
1:15:41>> Yes.
1:15:42>> When does when do people start doing
1:15:44splits as we know them today? Whether
1:15:45that's like upper body or like body part
1:15:47splits and this kind of thing.
1:15:49>> So my new training program only nine out
1:15:51of the best ever historically informed.
1:15:53That'll be the new thing.
1:15:55>> I'm buying that. I'm buying it.
1:15:56>> I want I want a Connor Hefernon program
1:15:59that's based on
1:16:01>> everything we know about history.
1:16:02>> Yeah. A thousand years went into this
1:16:0310-minute workout.
1:16:04>> Come on, man.
1:16:05>> So you're right. It's mainly full body
1:16:07programs really until the 1950s. Even
1:16:09Steve Reeves, you know, who eventually
1:16:11gets kind of Hercules fame is more full
1:16:13body than anything else. Reg Park is 5
1:16:15by five is mainly his training.
1:16:17>> Five by five. Five sets of five reps.
1:16:18>> Yeah. Across, you know, like your kind
1:16:20of big compound exercises.
1:16:22>> So that that obviously came back around
1:16:23later with starting strength and
1:16:25everything else. Okay. All right.
1:16:26>> Uh what's old is new, [laughter]
1:16:29>> bro. The more I learn about this stuff,
1:16:31the more I realize that this is just
1:16:33like one big cycle. It it just keep the
1:16:37things just keep coming back around.
1:16:38It's incredible. But anyway, yeah,
1:16:39continue about the splits.
1:16:40>> Yeah. the late Charles Polloquin would
1:16:41say, "If you want to learn something
1:16:42new, read a fitness magazine from 20
1:16:44years ago." Um, which again is quite
1:16:46funny, but the the training split, so
1:16:48it's more the 50s and 60s because
1:16:50there's two things going on. So, it's
1:16:53more machines are coming around. So, now
1:16:55I don't actually need to rely on
1:16:57compound lifts, you know, or even
1:16:58barbells or dumbbells to do my
1:17:00exercises. And then bodybuilding
1:17:01specializing. Now it really comes to the
1:17:03four in the 1960s when bodybuilding is
1:17:06becoming like its own sport and its own
1:17:08culture has its own gyms. So the 50s and
1:17:1160s is when you're starting to see that
1:17:12split 70s obviously it starts to
1:17:14maintain more like what we see today and
1:17:17this era you know from the late 50s to
1:17:19the 1970s you're starting to see
1:17:21bodybuilding coaches. So, as the splits
1:17:23are becoming more refined or more
1:17:26specialized, the exercises are becoming
1:17:29more refined and specialized because if
1:17:30I don't have to do a full body,
1:17:32>> well, damn, I can I can do two hours of
1:17:34legs. So, okay, like I'll do squats, but
1:17:35then what do I do after that? I'll do
1:17:37some hamstring curls. Okay, I'll do leg
1:17:38extensions. I'll do leg press. I'll do
1:17:40squats. I'll you know, they're
1:17:42starting to specialize because they can
1:17:44now because now they have a day, you
1:17:47know, to do shoulder and legs, chest and
1:17:50buys, whatever the case may be.
1:17:52>> Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, do you do you know
1:17:53what the first So, full body is the
1:17:55first, but after full body, do you know
1:17:57what the first split was?
1:17:58>> So, you you would have upper lower. Oh,
1:18:01really? That would be kind of an early
1:18:02one, but then you would also get kind of
1:18:04these smattering ones. So, if you stick
1:18:06with me, you would have kind of, you
1:18:08know, your leg day and then you'd have
1:18:10maybe chest and then you'd have your uh
1:18:12your back and you have your arms. This
1:18:13would come more in the late 50s but like
1:18:16the early iterations would be mainly
1:18:18upper lower and in that upper lower it
1:18:21would still be mainly compound
1:18:22exercises.
1:18:23>> Okay.
1:18:23>> And the reason for that is that the very
1:18:25first splits were largely informed by
1:18:27Olympic weightlifting.
1:18:29>> Right. So I'm going to have my clean and
1:18:30my clean and jerk day. I'm going to have
1:18:32my snatch day. I'm going to have my
1:18:33press day.
1:18:33>> Yes. Okay. Okay. So So then we get to
1:18:36we're jumping around a bit but then we
1:18:37get to the 70s with with splits. Now
1:18:39what was Arnold's split? Because this is
1:18:41something that people still seem to
1:18:43argue about and like a lot of people
1:18:45still say they're following an Arnold
1:18:46split and I'm like was that Arnold
1:18:48split? Like what did Arnold actually do?
1:18:50>> It's funny cuz there was something. It's
1:18:52like the golden 10 or something someone
1:18:54like a couple of years ago someone's
1:18:55like oh that Arnold split the golden
1:18:57something. I was like I have never heard
1:18:58it. [laughter] I was like when
1:19:00>> you can just make stuff up.
1:19:00>> You can mix it up. I was like okay I
1:19:02guess Arnold did it. Arnold trained like
1:19:05you know you're saying people will judge
1:19:06you by one leg workout.
1:19:08>> Yes. So Arnold has his encyclopedia of
1:19:10modern bodybuilding where he'll talk
1:19:12about beginner, intermediate, advanced.
1:19:14The truth is that all of these people
1:19:15trained a variety of different ways.
1:19:17Like Arnold started off as an Olympic
1:19:19weightlifter. He then did powerlifting.
1:19:21He then moved into bodybuilding.
1:19:23>> In the bodybuilding, he trained a
1:19:24certain way when he was in Europe. And
1:19:26then when he went to Joe Weider in the
1:19:27US, he would train another way. He would
1:19:29be influenced by Reg Parks 5x5, by
1:19:31Olympic weightlifting, by powerlifting.
1:19:33He would trial all of these things. So
1:19:35rather than looking at specific
1:19:37movements, you know, and specific rep
1:19:39rep schemes, I think you look at the
1:19:41foundations of what he did, you know,
1:19:43when he was at his peak. So when he was
1:19:44at his peak, it was high sets, you know,
1:19:46high reps, lots of volume, sometimes two
1:19:49a days.
1:19:49>> Yeah,
1:19:50>> that was kind of the general core.
1:19:52>> And then he would vary that as he went.
1:19:55And what people need to remember is
1:19:57cutting down in Arno's day was not
1:20:00calorie counting. Now it was oftentimes
1:20:02using a keto diet. So, I have a book
1:20:04somewhere there from Arnold's
1:20:05nutritionist called You Can't Flex Fat,
1:20:08which is all about using keto to diet
1:20:10down for competition. So, you would do
1:20:12your ketogenic diet and then you would
1:20:15increase your sets and reps.
1:20:17>> So, that's how you would cut down,
1:20:18right? Is in the gym. You weren't
1:20:19necessarily doing cardio. You weren't
1:20:22necessarily calorie counting, although
1:20:23they were monitoring their foods. You
1:20:26were using your training to reduce. And
1:20:28that's what people did in the 50s and
1:20:2960s and 70s. So when people talk about
1:20:31the Arnold split, it's like, okay, well,
1:20:33was he bulking or cutting? Was he in
1:20:35season, off season? Yes. Because he used
1:20:38that as like a dial to get more shredded
1:20:40over time.
1:20:41>> 1979. Is this an original?
1:20:43>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:20:44>> What a what a cover. Like it's it's so
1:20:46cool. [laughter]
1:20:47>> It's kind of like, you know, like if
1:20:49someone's an ass, like, you know, if
1:20:50you're in the gym, you're like, "Oh, how
1:20:51do I build a physique?" Like, you're
1:20:52like, "You can't flex fat." You know,
1:20:53like,
1:20:54>> wait, what does you can't flex fat mean?
1:20:56Oh, it just means you it's not
1:20:57functional. Like there's no point in
1:20:58having it. If you're on stage, you need
1:21:00to be lean, right? Like it's not going
1:21:02to impress anyone if you're 200 lb body
1:21:05>> fat. This is just incredible. Wow. So I
1:21:07see a meal plan in here level one. So
1:21:09they break it down by Wow. So ectomorph
1:21:11was around
1:21:13the 1930s. Wow. Ectomorph since Yeah,
1:21:16that's right. was the original of it.
1:21:20>> That is such an odd history if you
1:21:21really look into it with like eugenics
1:21:22and all this kind of stuff. There's some
1:21:24weird overlap there.
1:21:25>> Fitness Jack.
1:21:26>> True, true, true, true, [laughter] true.
1:21:27That is true.
1:21:28>> That's fine. and the best body. Why
1:21:29would you want to do that?
1:21:30>> Yeah, true. So true. Um, okay. So, when
1:21:33you look at the the diet here, we've got
1:21:34level one breakfast, two eggs, poached
1:21:37preferably, but any style is okay.
1:21:40[laughter]
1:21:40>> However,
1:21:41>> that's great. A quarter pound of meat,
1:21:44eight ounces of milk, one slice of whole
1:21:47grain toast with butter.
1:21:49>> That's you.
1:21:51>> Then it's just more meat and juice and
1:21:53Wow. I mean,
1:21:55>> listen, it works.
1:21:56>> It's a lot of protein. Yeah, but like
1:21:58other diets from that time, you had
1:21:59Vince Garand's definition diet which was
1:22:01super highfat. You had Rio H. Blair did
1:22:04a water and meat diet to reduce people
1:22:06down. So almost like an early carnivore
1:22:08diet,
1:22:09>> but usually in the 60s and 70s it was
1:22:12strip back your carbs massively.
1:22:14Obviously lower your calories because
1:22:15you've stripped back your carbs and then
1:22:17train almost like circuit training. Use
1:22:20your volume to to
1:22:22>> Yeah.
1:22:22>> reduce your body fat.
1:22:23>> Yeah. And a lot of people still seem to
1:22:25think that's true. not within like the
1:22:27serious fitness space. Like I feel like
1:22:28a lot of my audience wouldn't think high
1:22:30reps to tone is true, but in the
1:22:31mainstream that's still a very prevalent
1:22:33myth. Like if if you want to get ripped,
1:22:36>> do high reps. If you want to bulk, do
1:22:37low reps. In reality, obviously like
1:22:40that the caloric burn difference is
1:22:41basically negligible. [laughter] And um
1:22:44>> when I discovered that, that genuinely
1:22:46broke my heart cuz I was cycling my
1:22:48calories. I was like, well, it's leg
1:22:49day, so I mean that's that's good for
1:22:50another like 500 calories.
1:22:52realized I was like, "Oh,
1:22:54>> it takes a lot of activity to burn a lot
1:22:55of calories." I'll tell you that. Um,
1:22:57but also, um, we just know with a fairly
1:23:01high degree of confidence that basically
1:23:03all rep ranges build muscle provided
1:23:05they're trained sufficiently close to
1:23:06failure. So, yeah, the rep range thing
1:23:08is just a huge huge myth that has lasted
1:23:11I I guess probably since at least then.
1:23:13>> Oh, yeah. Because and like you could
1:23:14understand during that era why they
1:23:17might think that. Now, I have another
1:23:18book there. It's a Franco Columbo book.
1:23:20It's I think it's called nutrition for
1:23:22bodybuilders or bodybuilders nutrition.
1:23:24That's coming at a similar time. So it's
1:23:26underneath the uh Bernard McFaden thing.
1:23:28It's coming at
1:23:29>> cover, bro.
1:23:30>> Similar time.
1:23:30>> He's got a apple in that little gap
1:23:33between his uh
1:23:34>> his bicep and his elbow.
1:23:36>> But if you flick into that, you'll start
1:23:37to see calories and calories being
1:23:39mentioned. So by the 1980s, you have
1:23:42someone like Rich Kaspari who's
1:23:43literally carrying around like a
1:23:45university textbook with all the calorie
1:23:47breakdowns. So they're starting to
1:23:48follow that. Yeah.
1:23:49>> And I think doing that helped to move
1:23:52people away from, oh, it's just remove
1:23:55carbs. It's just, you know, increase my
1:23:57volume. They're starting to track it a
1:23:59bit more. But to go back to your point
1:24:01about how did Arnold train, you have to
1:24:03ask, well, where where was he in his
1:24:04season, you know, for one of a better
1:24:06phrase.
1:24:07>> Yeah, this is starting to look a lot
1:24:09more scientific. I'm hearing like, you
1:24:11know, vitamin B6 and B12 and vitamin B
1:24:14complex supplements. And I just saw a
1:24:16mention of amenorhea, which is
1:24:18interesting because I'm sure that's
1:24:19something, you know, female bodybuilders
1:24:21have to deal with. We're talking about
1:24:23thyroid medications and all kinds of
1:24:25stuff. So, it's like, yeah, you see the
1:24:28the pickup in the scientific analytical
1:24:30side of things here, even though I did
1:24:32notice there's still a little bit of uh
1:24:35bunk in here as as you
1:24:36>> Well, Franco is an interesting cat
1:24:38because he was a complimentary
1:24:40alternative medicine, isn't that he is
1:24:41in North America? He had a degree in
1:24:43it's either
1:24:44>> osteop osteopathy or chiropractic. I
1:24:47think it might have been osteopathy.
1:24:48>> So he's coming at it from that kind of
1:24:50alternative health lens.
1:24:51>> But more people are beginning to do
1:24:53that. Like even Vince Ganda who's the
1:24:55trainer to the stars in the 60s and 70s,
1:24:57he would have these vast supplement
1:24:59lists of like brewer yeast and iodine
1:25:02tablets and kelp tablets and all these
1:25:03things because he's trying to kind of
1:25:05scientifically, you know, produce an
1:25:07outcome with his athletes. But you're
1:25:09starting to see really from the late '7s
1:25:11on people moving away from kind of urban
1:25:15myth fitness to like, okay, what is my
1:25:18caloric intake for today? What's my
1:25:20caloric burn? Okay, I'm going to have to
1:25:21start being like somewhat serious with
1:25:23my cardio, you know, to if I'm dieting
1:25:25down for competition.
1:25:27>> But before that, it's like high fat,
1:25:29high reps. I'm trying to think now like
1:25:32when when would foods have like when
1:25:35were calor cal calorie content databases
1:25:38when did that become a thing? Like I'm
1:25:40just trying to think like now
1:25:41>> we track using an app or on a
1:25:44spreadsheet or something, right? Like
1:25:46like how or it's on the label obviously,
1:25:48right? But like how how did how would
1:25:50you track like did food labels were food
1:25:53labels around then? And when did when
1:25:55did that start happening? So you have
1:25:57calories and calorie knowledge come
1:25:58around the 1890s early 1990s. Yeah.
1:26:01Yeah. The first calorie tables um in the
1:26:03US at least in North America. It's a man
1:26:05named Atwater who's a government
1:26:06official and he produces these tables.
1:26:09You actually get the first calorie
1:26:10weight loss books in the 1910s 1920s
1:26:13really geared at women
1:26:15>> as opposed to men. Now, in terms of
1:26:17labeling, this is something that becomes
1:26:18more important in the 50s and 60s and
1:26:20oftentimes not because of health, but
1:26:22because of shoddy food
1:26:24>> practices. Um, so, but it's not until
1:26:27the 70s and ' 80s that bodybuilding
1:26:29begins to take on calories, which is so
1:26:31funny because you would think that this
1:26:33would be
1:26:34>> a no-brainer in some ways, but just
1:26:35shows that culturally it wasn't talked
1:26:37about.
1:26:38>> To be honest with you, bodybuilders
1:26:39still haven't fully taken on calories
1:26:41because a lot of bodybuilders would say,
1:26:43"It's just about the foods. Don't count
1:26:44calories. Don't track your workouts.
1:26:45It's all just it's a who's watsy, you
1:26:48know,
1:26:48>> figure [laughter] it out. It's standard.
1:26:50Yeah, I got that. It's fine.
1:26:51>> Um, but okay. Wow. So, wait. In the
1:26:531920s, they had the idea that like if
1:26:57women in this case wanted to lose
1:26:58weight, they had to restrict calories.
1:27:00Like they understood energy balance and
1:27:02this kind of thing.
1:27:02>> Yeah. And they also understand praying
1:27:03on women's insecurities, which is, you
1:27:05know, [laughter]
1:27:06there there' be money in them. There are
1:27:07heels. But yeah, they would have these
1:27:09weight loss books, these reducing books.
1:27:11So, women would have their table. So,
1:27:12you know, here's your meal for today.
1:27:14Here's the calories of it. make sure
1:27:15that you hit this caloric total. If you
1:27:17can't eat this, here are some comparable
1:27:19foods. And even if you look at, you
1:27:21know, some of the early 1900s, they
1:27:23would talk about like protein or
1:27:25nitrogen content. So they would, some
1:27:27people, not all, would say, eat high
1:27:30protein foods or high nitrogen foods.
1:27:32And they would have tables of, you know,
1:27:354 ounces of steak is whatever in
1:27:37protein. You know, an egg has this much
1:27:39protein or this much nitrogen. So
1:27:40there's always been a recognition of not
1:27:42always but a lot of time of minerals and
1:27:44vitamins but calories yes marketed to
1:27:46women in the 1920s long gap before you
1:27:49have rich kaspari you know eating
1:27:51breakfast with the the book beside him.
1:27:53>> Interesting. Yeah, I find that I just
1:27:56find that so surprising because it's
1:27:57like, you know, this is this is
1:27:59something that was
1:28:00>> at least on the cusp of being understood
1:28:03a century ago and now today you still
1:28:05have mainstream
1:28:09public figures talking about how, you
1:28:11know, calories are essentially a myth
1:28:13and and all this kind of thing. And it's
1:28:14like what does it what does it take to
1:28:17actually like raise the level of public
1:28:20awareness [laughter]
1:28:20on these sorts of basic principles
1:28:23>> like and you're right like in one hand
1:28:24we know too much now. So, you know, when
1:28:26people like, "Well, it's not just
1:28:27calories in, calories out. There's
1:28:28hormones." And you're like, "Yeah, no,
1:28:29that's all true." But also, like,
1:28:30>> if you want to know how to lose weight,
1:28:32you ask like a natural bodybuilder,
1:28:34right? Because they're the most
1:28:35successful people at learning how to
1:28:37know whether it's sustainable or
1:28:38long-term, like that's all a different
1:28:40conversation. What do they do, you know?
1:28:42And but then you need to look at your
1:28:43environment. So, we kind of know too
1:28:45much now,
1:28:46>> right?
1:28:46>> In in some respects and then not enough
1:28:48in other respects. Like, okay, at a
1:28:51population level, yes, there's all this
1:28:52nuance. At an individual level, if you
1:28:54wanted to lose weight, I'm you're
1:28:56probably going to recommend some level
1:28:58of awareness around how much you eat and
1:29:02slightly modifying that.
1:29:05>> Yeah. I mean, it was caloric deficit
1:29:07like [laughter]
1:29:09tiptoeing around like how will this be
1:29:11misconstrued?
1:29:12>> Yeah. No, no, it is that is just basic
1:29:14thermodynamics, man. Um but you know I
1:29:16mean you you are correct to say that
1:29:18like yes on the population level it gets
1:29:20very complex and nuanced when you know
1:29:22you look at like access and food deserts
1:29:25and all these sorts of things are are
1:29:26real concerns and they're valid and yada
1:29:29yada yada fitness.
1:29:30>> Yeah.
1:29:31>> Yeah. [laughter] But no but then there's
1:29:33also this you know whole thing about
1:29:34hormones and it's like oh yes well
1:29:35hormones can affect your metabolism that
1:29:38impacts the energy outside of the
1:29:40equation. Right. So it still comes back
1:29:42to that basic fundamental principle. Um,
1:29:44but yeah, I just I do find it so
1:29:46interesting that it's like,
1:29:48>> oh man, like you guys had it figured out
1:29:50a hundred years ago and then we had a,
1:29:52you know, 80 years of regression just to
1:29:55like almost get back there again. But I
1:29:56think I think a lot of it does come back
1:29:58to some of these like
1:29:59>> fallacies of people looking at people
1:30:01who have had success and saying
1:30:03therefore I must emulate what that
1:30:04person did if I want their results and
1:30:06not realizing that like there are so
1:30:08many other factors that go into building
1:30:10a physique beyond that. But for all
1:30:12that, there are still like fundamental
1:30:14scientific principles that like no one
1:30:17gets to skip on. Yeah, exactly. Um,
1:30:19>> okay. Anyway, all right. So, that's all
1:30:21good. Let's let's skip ahead to um the
1:30:24the 1990s. So, now we're into like the
1:30:27mass monster era. I I I do believe that
1:30:30like the biggest difference here. Like
1:30:31on once we start getting into like the
1:30:3480s and 90s, what happens and the
1:30:36difference you see in physiques come
1:30:38primarily from a change in drugs. Yeah,
1:30:41that's pretty much it, right?
1:30:42>> More drugs, better drugs, more
1:30:44accessibility, more knowledge about
1:30:46drugs. So, in the 1980s, you have a guy
1:30:48called Dan Duchain
1:30:50>> who publishes the underground steroid
1:30:51handbook. He helps democratize steroid
1:30:53knowledge. And what I mean by that is,
1:30:55you know, I don't have to ask the big
1:30:56guy what he does. I can read the steroid
1:30:59handbook. And Duchain
1:31:01>> for all of the federal charges against
1:31:02him, which is never a sentence you want
1:31:03to start with,
1:31:04>> he is trying to be scientific about drug
1:31:06taking.
1:31:07>> Okay? And you get more knowledge around
1:31:09drugs at a time when more drugs are
1:31:11coming to the market alongside better
1:31:13nutritional not better nutritional
1:31:15practices but stricter nutritional
1:31:16practices. So Dorian Yates for example
1:31:18is obviously taking steroids that people
1:31:20in the 80s didn't have access to.
1:31:22>> But he's also tracking his calories in a
1:31:23way that people in the 1970s didn't. And
1:31:26a really interesting I suppose example
1:31:29of how quickly drugs can change
1:31:30physiques. You look at Arnold's last
1:31:32Olympia win which was some more
1:31:33controversial the 1980 win. And then you
1:31:36look at him in the early 1970s, it's a
1:31:39very different physique in terms of
1:31:40conditioning and how shredded he is. And
1:31:43some of that is obviously his diet has
1:31:44changed, but also he's using different
1:31:47drugs. And the 1990s, it goes into
1:31:50overdrive. You get bans on diuretics
1:31:52because people are collapsing. You get
1:31:53someone like Andreas Monzer who who dies
1:31:55early largely due to an excess of
1:31:58anabolics and different steroids. So the
1:32:01mass monster era training has not
1:32:04necessarily evolved massively.
1:32:06>> The pharmaceuticals have.
1:32:08>> Yeah.
1:32:09>> And also I would say the
1:32:11>> limits to which people are willing to go
1:32:13have arguably maybe changed a little bit
1:32:15because of that because people are now
1:32:16bigger. They're now leaner. So to be
1:32:18bigger and leaner I now need to go even
1:32:20more extreme than that. But it that's
1:32:22kind of the pharmaceutical the second
1:32:24pharmaceutical revolution in
1:32:26bodybuilding is the 1990s.
1:32:28>> Wow. Dan Duchaine, the federal charges
1:32:30was steroid related.
1:32:31>> Yeah. For pedaling drugs. Okay. Um Yeah.
1:32:33He also did a cyclical keto diet which
1:32:35is just insane. It's called the body
1:32:36opus diet.
1:32:37>> Oh yeah.
1:32:38>> Uh oh my god. It's just so complicated,
1:32:40>> man. The more like all all of these
1:32:42names and all these different Yeah.
1:32:44There's just [laughter] it makes me
1:32:46realize just like
1:32:49>> like just how much there has been out
1:32:51there on how to get jacked and like how
1:32:54many little like debates there are and
1:32:56like different schools and it's like oh
1:32:58man like there is a through line through
1:33:01all of this you know like there actually
1:33:03is but you know people will always just
1:33:06debate endlessly on the margins you know
1:33:08um
1:33:08>> which which is fine because it's fun
1:33:10like it's it's fun it's fun to compare
1:33:12my training to someone else's training
1:33:14talk about one supplement versus
1:33:15another. But as I said like the
1:33:16fundamentals
1:33:18>> like they like they all they all do
1:33:20return. Now the problem is though that
1:33:23my application of the fundamentals
1:33:25>> might need to be very different to your
1:33:27application of the fund and that's where
1:33:29it generates endless debate because
1:33:31someone might do really well on low
1:33:33volume. Yeah,
1:33:34>> but someone else might need like super
1:33:35high volume, you know. So that's where
1:33:37you get these really entrenched camps.
1:33:39>> Yeah.
1:33:40>> Because although we all agree on the
1:33:41fundamentals
1:33:42>> Yeah. I need to focus on the compound
1:33:44lifts and you need to focus on
1:33:46specialization or vice versa. So that's
1:33:48where I think it it becomes just endless
1:33:51talk.
1:33:52>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so through the mass
1:33:54monster era we see like Dorian Yates
1:33:56obviously who did the the Mike Menser
1:33:58hit high-intensity low volume thing. Um
1:34:01but then we also had Ronnie Coleman come
1:34:02through who did more of a power building
1:34:05but also super high volume training as
1:34:07well. Just brutal training. Um, and then
1:34:11you know you have Jay Cutler who was
1:34:12another really high volume guy as well.
1:34:15And and
1:34:16>> I don't know if I would describe his
1:34:18training as brutal necessarily as
1:34:20Ronny's or Dorian's, but it it felt a
1:34:23little bit more almost like a a call
1:34:25back to um uh
1:34:29who who was it.
1:34:30>> Lehaney. Yeah. Yeah. Um where it it felt
1:34:33a little bit more reserved in a way,
1:34:34like a little more intentional. I
1:34:35wouldn't want to say reserve because Jay
1:34:37obviously trained really hard but it was
1:34:38a little more like intentional a little
1:34:39less like anim animalistic. He he's a
1:34:41bridge between Ronnie and Phil Heath.
1:34:43Yes. For one of a better phrase because
1:34:45Jay's a super interesting dude because
1:34:47if you look at his training philosophy,
1:34:49he would have trained and he talks about
1:34:50this like very heavy on the compound
1:34:52lifts growing up and then he kind of
1:34:54moved away from that. But then he and
1:34:56he'll talk about this, you know, to beat
1:34:57Ronnie Coleman. He began to move back
1:35:00into
1:35:01>> very heavy weights, intense training
1:35:04just to try and overcome Ronnie who's
1:35:05obviously doing like 800 lb squats,
1:35:07deadlifts, like insane. So Jay kind of
1:35:10shifts. He kind of swings. Like he's
1:35:12very interesting in terms of how he
1:35:13swings across his career.
1:35:14>> Yes. Yes. Yes. That actually kind of
1:35:16gets back to what we're saying where
1:35:17it's like people try to
1:35:19>> I don't know if they try to. It ends up
1:35:20happening that people put you in a box.
1:35:22You have this training style, right? So
1:35:24like so right now [laughter]
1:35:26>> in the zeitgeist my training style is
1:35:28very like machiny, very cable, very
1:35:31optimally, very like tweak oriented and
1:35:33technique oriented. If you were to go
1:35:34back even just four or five years ago, I
1:35:36was a power builder, right? like my my
1:35:38base was, you know, squats, bench press,
1:35:40deadlift, and all this kind of stuff.
1:35:42So, it does kind of depend on, I think,
1:35:43what season all of these people are in
1:35:45because if you train for 10, 20 years,
1:35:48like that's a that's a long time. 20 30
1:35:50years, that's a really long time. So,
1:35:51like you're
1:35:53>> you're going to go through phases of
1:35:55having different focuses during that
1:35:57time, right? That's kind of the secret
1:35:58sauce as well, you know, because
1:36:00[clears throat]
1:36:00a lot of fitness is generated at the
1:36:02beginner,
1:36:03>> you know, and it's kind of like this is
1:36:04what you're doing for the next six weeks
1:36:05or the next 12 weeks and you speak in
1:36:07absolutes because they need to hear
1:36:09>> absolutes. When you're starting off, you
1:36:10don't want to hear, well, how should I
1:36:12train? Well, you know, we can do this
1:36:14and we can do that. You know, it all
1:36:16kind of works, you know. So, just figure
1:36:18it out.
1:36:18>> That's terrible advice.
1:36:19>> Yeah. So, you know, when you have a
1:36:21beginner, you're like, okay, we're doing
1:36:22>> It's true.
1:36:23>> Yeah.
1:36:24>> It's true that Yeah. It kind of all will
1:36:25work. You have to train hard going to
1:36:27inform anybody on that because you know
1:36:29it's it's not specific enough to hear
1:36:32that. Yeah. Exactly.
1:36:33>> And you know you could be five for five
1:36:34anything you know but then when you
1:36:36start to train a little bit longer you
1:36:39know there might be limitations that you
1:36:40need in your training. There might be
1:36:42different goals that you're trying to
1:36:43achieve. There might be outside
1:36:44stressors which we never accept in
1:36:46fitness space that people have a life
1:36:47outside of their six-pack.
1:36:49>> You know training changes and it's meant
1:36:51to change as well because you're
1:36:52becoming more nuanced in training. Like
1:36:55if you were to look at how you train now
1:36:57and you know you compare it to 5 years
1:36:59ago but even if you were to go back to
1:37:00power building right now which you are
1:37:02sorry
1:37:04>> but you would probably be approaching it
1:37:05so differently and people can't see the
1:37:08internal change what happens and I think
1:37:09it's really interesting when you see a
1:37:11beginner starting to figure out like a
1:37:12deadlift and then you see them like five
1:37:14or six years later and even if it looks
1:37:16on the outside's fairly similar you're
1:37:18like their bracing is different they're
1:37:20stacking their like internally they're
1:37:22getting a lot more from that movement
1:37:23Yeah,
1:37:24>> but that's why it's really hard because
1:37:26people just like those like Phil Heath
1:37:28never trained hard. I'm like I mean he
1:37:30trained pretty hard but he's using
1:37:31machines. You just think it should have
1:37:33been Ronnie because we all grew up with
1:37:35Ronnie's training videos or you know you
1:37:37look at someone you say Arnold did this.
1:37:39It's like no but Arnold also did all
1:37:41these other things.
1:37:43>> Yeah. It's it's the thing that's the the
1:37:44key insight is that like people don't
1:37:46have access to the the subjective inside
1:37:49right. So it's like they don't realize
1:37:50that it's like
1:37:52>> I actually got had quite a few injuries
1:37:54I had to work around. So it's like that
1:37:55was it. That was the impetus. It wasn't
1:37:57that Yeah.
1:37:59>> Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, you know, that
1:38:00that that was like, okay, let me find
1:38:03another way that I Oh, luckily, you
1:38:05know, the the best research shows we can
1:38:06still build muscle. You don't have to
1:38:07squat. You don't have to deadlift.
1:38:09There's so many different ways to do it.
1:38:10And so then that brings on like a
1:38:12different training style for me and and
1:38:14you know, in some of the things that I
1:38:15that I show and so on and so forth.
1:38:16doesn't mean that like that is the Jeff
1:38:18Nipper training style, right? I think
1:38:19you can be flexible as long as you
1:38:21understand the core principles.
1:38:22>> And this is something that because when
1:38:23I talk and they do let me talk um to you
1:38:26know exercise scientists or strength
1:38:27strength coaches or conferences and
1:38:29different things, my number one takeaway
1:38:31is to not be dogmatic and I always use
1:38:33the back squat as an example because
1:38:35when I got into training, my knees were
1:38:37not allowed to go over my toes. Do you
1:38:38remember that whole thing?
1:38:40>> And I would squat in front of a wall
1:38:41with the coach and like a you know and
1:38:43he'd be knocking me back. My knees were
1:38:45not allowed to train or go track over my
1:38:46toes because that was dangerous. There
1:38:48was only one way to back squat. It
1:38:50didn't matter if I was six foot and my
1:38:51training partner was 5'6. Knees behind
1:38:53toes no matter what.
1:38:54>> Yeah.
1:38:55>> And then my knees got sore.
1:38:57>> Yeah.
1:38:58>> Really sore because it didn't suit me.
1:38:59And I began to experiment with different
1:39:01types of squatting because we've always
1:39:03had different types. And you know, you
1:39:04said when I was injured, I could do this
1:39:06or this.
1:39:07>> For me, that's where the value of
1:39:08history and science comes together
1:39:10because it's a toolbox, right? Because
1:39:12the body's dumb meat, you know, and it's
1:39:14not like, well, you know, Conor's doing
1:39:16front squats today, but I really wish he
1:39:18had done like a back
1:39:20>> squat. The body is dumb meat.
1:39:22>> Well, you know, in terms like stimulus.
1:39:23[laughter]
1:39:24>> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't know
1:39:26what what you're thinking. It doesn't
1:39:27know. It doesn't know
1:39:30>> the muscle experiences tension, right?
1:39:32Like it doesn't it doesn't know exactly
1:39:33what exercise you're doing in three
1:39:35dimensions.
1:39:36>> It's not like, damn, I really wish he
1:39:37did hack squats today. Like, I was
1:39:39really looking forward to that. But
1:39:40that's where the tool box comes in
1:39:41handy, right? Because you're like,
1:39:42"Okay, so I'm doing squats today, but
1:39:44I'm going to do front squats because,
1:39:45you know, maybe I'm having some issues
1:39:47with my back or I'm going to do
1:39:48squats because I really want to isolate
1:39:49the VMO or I'm doing this, you know?" So
1:39:51the toolbox becomes important,
1:39:53>> but we often just want the and it's a
1:39:56human it's a human uh a human condition.
1:39:59We want the certainty that there's one
1:40:01way. Yeah.
1:40:02>> There's one way to squat, there's one
1:40:03way to train, there's one way to
1:40:04deadlift, there's one way to eat or you
1:40:06know uh exercise. But the reality is if
1:40:10you're in it for the long haul, and I
1:40:11would hope everyone is in it for the
1:40:12long haul in whatever way, shape, or
1:40:13form that takes, you need to adapt and
1:40:16vary over time.
1:40:18>> And it's hard to That's where we go back
1:40:19to the beginner. We're like, there's
1:40:21four movements you just need to do that,
1:40:23you know, do that for 12 weeks, then
1:40:24you're fine. Now, we're going to do five
1:40:26movements.
1:40:27>> But for the longer you're in your
1:40:28season,
1:40:29>> Yeah.
1:40:30>> the more you need to adapt and dance,
1:40:32you know, and kind of react to what's
1:40:34happening with you.
1:40:35>> Yeah. Exactly. Um, okay. So when let's
1:40:37flash forward to the final era here. So
1:40:39now we're in the modern era. So let's
1:40:40just call that like
1:40:42>> 2010s onward or something. Okay.
1:40:44Whatever. Yeah. The social media era.
1:40:46Let's let's call it the social media
1:40:47era. As a historian, I really do want
1:40:49your honest opinion on the social media
1:40:53era of fitness.
1:40:55>> Everything is wonderful. My captors are
1:40:57treating me very well. No. So let's do
1:41:00pros and cons. Okay. Um pros of social
1:41:03media era. uh for the first time in
1:41:04recorded human history, knowledge around
1:41:06exercise is democratized. So what I mean
1:41:08by that is anyone can now figure out how
1:41:11to train, how to program, how to
1:41:13optimize their training without talking
1:41:15to anyone. Now I would like people to
1:41:17interact because isolation is
1:41:19increasing. But compare that to when I
1:41:21got into lifting in the 90s and early
1:41:222000s. It was really hard to join a gym.
1:41:25Uh, I had to go up to the personal
1:41:27trainer and just rely on them or a Joe
1:41:29Weider magazine or Muscle and Health or
1:41:31Men's Health or the big guy in the gym.
1:41:33>> Yeah.
1:41:34>> My So, I've done two natural
1:41:35bodybuilding shows. My first natural
1:41:37bodybuilding show in the early 2010s in
1:41:38Ireland,
1:41:40>> salmon and broccoli.
1:41:41>> Yeah.
1:41:41>> Six times a day.
1:41:42>> Yeah.
1:41:43>> Right. So much salmon you can eat.
1:41:45>> Yeah. you know, I did another natural
1:41:47bodybuilding show in it was 2019 or 2020
1:41:49and like I had my calories down to, you
1:41:51know, the nth degree, but I was able to
1:41:54do that myself because the knowledge was
1:41:55so much easier to to get access to. So,
1:41:58social media has increased our
1:42:00individual abilities to empower
1:42:02ourselves in our training.
1:42:04>> Yeah.
1:42:04>> A beginner by look, circumstance, or
1:42:07whatever the case may be can go on a
1:42:08really good run of one to two years
1:42:10where they don't need to mess around.
1:42:11Like I went into the gym, you know, you
1:42:13kind of pick up dumbbell, you're like,
1:42:14I've seen people do this. Whereas now I
1:42:16have students who go into a gym and
1:42:18they're like, okay, so Monday's this,
1:42:19Tuesday's this, Thursday's this.
1:42:20Periodized. Wonderful. So like you can
1:42:23get on the on-ramp a lot quicker.
1:42:25>> Yeah,
1:42:25>> that's amazing. We should not take that
1:42:27for granted because that was not the
1:42:29case. We were always beholden to Sande
1:42:31with his 5B dumbbells. Joe Weider, buy
1:42:34my supplement. It's not steroids, it's a
1:42:36supplement. Here's the workout that
1:42:37Robbie Robinson did. Even though he
1:42:39never did that, I'm just writing, you
1:42:40know, clap drop. Really good.
1:42:42>> Yeah.
1:42:43>> Where social media has, you know, its
1:42:46problems. Obviously, there's the
1:42:48professional wrestling of fitness
1:42:51spaces, you know, the kind of fake
1:42:53feuds, the trying to tear people down,
1:42:55saying something salacious to get eyes
1:42:57on you. You know, if it bleeds, it
1:42:58leads. So, trying to create controversy,
1:43:01trying to create like tension within the
1:43:03fitness industry to drive traffic is a
1:43:05problem. The democratization of fitness
1:43:08has problems with it especially around
1:43:11steroid knowledge. There are a lot more
1:43:12people going on steroids at a much
1:43:14younger age. Now there's personal
1:43:17preferences etc. I accept all that body
1:43:19autonomy. I do get uneasy with how young
1:43:21people are getting on anabolic steroids
1:43:23and the access that they're getting.
1:43:24>> Yeah.
1:43:25>> And because access is or knowledge is
1:43:27democratized
1:43:28>> there are more people claiming expertise
1:43:32than is probably the reality. So if you
1:43:35think of your own journey and how over
1:43:38time you've, you know, become more and
1:43:40more knowledgeable about this, people
1:43:41have seen you grow along this journey.
1:43:43They've seen how you've accepted some
1:43:45things and dropped things that you
1:43:46previously held on to.
1:43:48>> But then there's also someone who's
1:43:50taken steroids for the last six months
1:43:52and is selling you a 12-week program.
1:43:54>> Yeah. And if you're new to the space,
1:43:56you might know, oh, well, this per, you
1:43:57know, like an Eric or Jeff or whoever
1:43:59the case may be, has been around for a
1:44:00long time is, you know, has a certain
1:44:02level of credibility,
1:44:04>> but this guy looks really yucky and I
1:44:06want to look like him.
1:44:07>> That access of knowledge has
1:44:09consequences. And then you look at the
1:44:11amount of people hopping on an stairs at
1:44:13D, you know, using dangerous cycles. I
1:44:15know I sound like a Nancy Reagan ad
1:44:17right now, but it is it is a consequence
1:44:19of social media.
1:44:20>> Yeah. Yeah.
1:44:21>> And so that democratization is a
1:44:22double-edged sword. more people are able
1:44:24to get leaner, bigger, stronger, more
1:44:26comfortable with their bodies, etc.,
1:44:27which is wonderful, but there are more
1:44:29harmful practices being shared more
1:44:31regularly because of that access to
1:44:33information.
1:44:33>> Yeah, totally. I I think um yeah, I
1:44:36think I broadly would agree with the the
1:44:38upside. Um
1:44:40uh I I do think yeah, it's good that the
1:44:43information is available if you want to
1:44:45find it. The problem is like, and this
1:44:47is increasingly the case, a lot of
1:44:49people don't really necessarily go out
1:44:51seeking the information. So maybe 5 to
1:44:5210 years ago, you might go search on
1:44:54YouTube how to bench press or what to
1:44:56eat to get leaner, right? And you would
1:44:58get a video that would be pretty good um
1:45:00most of the timeish or whatever, you
1:45:02know, like at least it was there, right?
1:45:03And if you had any kind of critical
1:45:04thinking, you could kind of weed through
1:45:05that. Um nowadays things are so much
1:45:09more algorithmically generated where
1:45:10what you're getting fed is just a
1:45:12infinite scroll feed and so what is
1:45:15given to you isn't really you know you
1:45:17use the word democratized it's it's not
1:45:19it's not really democratized according
1:45:21to what is most valuable or most
1:45:25correct. It's by what is going to get
1:45:27the most watch time. And so often that
1:45:29does end up being incorrect information
1:45:31because it does drive more division. It
1:45:33drives more conversation. it you you get
1:45:36people like rage baiting and all this
1:45:37kind of stuff, right? So, I think that
1:45:38while it's true that the information is
1:45:40all out there if you want to make an
1:45:41honest effort to find it and that's
1:45:43good, a lot of people nowadays are just
1:45:45getting their information fed to them on
1:45:47the basis of what is going to keep them
1:45:49on the app the longest, which is not a
1:45:50good thing. And that's the key point
1:45:52because when it's Joe Weider or Bob
1:45:54Hoffman or John Balick or anyone who's
1:45:56holding the knowledge in the 70s and 80s
1:45:58with their magazines, they're still
1:45:59fitness people.
1:46:00>> Whereas the algorithm
1:46:02>> like this could all be about Lego. You
1:46:04know what I mean? Like like the
1:46:06algorithm doesn't care, right? It's
1:46:07like, "Oh, more people are watching the
1:46:08Lego content. Okay, happy days. Angry
1:46:10Lego content. There has to be angry Lego
1:46:12content. Angry Lego content. We're going
1:46:14to lead people to that." You're right
1:46:15with fitness. The gatekeeper is an
1:46:17algorithm which is not about fitness.
1:46:20It's about engagement.
1:46:22>> So that that obviously creates like a
1:46:24lot of problems. And it's funny because
1:46:25sometimes I'll watch some of the rage
1:46:26batty stuff and I'll be like, well, I
1:46:28don't know anyone who and then I'll talk
1:46:29to my students and they're hopping from
1:46:31one program to the next. I'm a hardcore
1:46:33trainer, not a science. I'm like,
1:46:35>> what's h but it's because the as you
1:46:37said, the infinite scroll and trying to
1:46:39get
1:46:40>> expertise in that is kind of tricky.
1:46:42>> Yeah, it is. Um Yeah. And then I think
1:46:45another negative that actually ties in
1:46:46with the you know abundance of steroids
1:46:48that we see is is a I would say a very
1:46:52skewed fitness standard. Now I'm curious
1:46:55what you think about this from a
1:46:56historical perspective. Maybe it was
1:46:57always the case that like the people saw
1:46:59the best physique. It was Sandow in in
1:47:02the late 1800s on through it was Arnold
1:47:05in the 70s and like that was the
1:47:06standard. But I feel like I feel like
1:47:08now with social media you are really
1:47:11seeing the gen like a lot like
1:47:14everybody's on social media, right? So
1:47:15it's like you're seeing hundreds if not
1:47:18thousands of incredibly high level
1:47:19physiques and it can lead to the
1:47:21impression that that's actually normal.
1:47:23Right? It's gotten to the point where
1:47:24it's like
1:47:26I'm a pro-natural bodybuilder. I've
1:47:28competed in professional natural
1:47:30bodybuilding shows. I've won Canadian
1:47:32national shows. I've done six
1:47:34competitions. I've done six powerlifting
1:47:35events, like placed gold medals at
1:47:39several events
1:47:40>> on social media. Now, I'm kind of seen
1:47:42as like you this is an achievable
1:47:44[laughter] look. Like it's it's actually
1:47:46not that impressive for how long he's
1:47:47been lifting. Like, you know, this is
1:47:48like good. You know, this is like
1:47:51standard, right? And it's like, man,
1:47:53these standards have gotten crazy. Even
1:47:55in the 10 years that I've been on social
1:47:57media, you know, it's gone from like
1:47:59Jeff is 100% fake natty, like his
1:48:01physique is just too good to nowadays
1:48:03being like I definitely get criticized
1:48:05more for being like small and undersized
1:48:08and it's like my FM is 24, bro. Like
1:48:10it's like, [laughter] you know, so the
1:48:12the standards have gotten very much
1:48:15inflated. Have you do you think that
1:48:16that's true as a historian or
1:48:18>> I've seen people say with Frank Zayn's
1:48:21physique well you can achieve that
1:48:22naturally and like I've like freaks
1:48:24exist you know natural body job but
1:48:25people like oh you know in a couple of
1:48:26years you can I'm like
1:48:28>> Frank Zayn [laughter]
1:48:30literally like one of the most aesthetic
1:48:32Frank Zayn is achievable naturally in a
1:48:34few years.
1:48:35>> So I I think you're absolutely right.
1:48:37It's the
1:48:38>> ability to not compare in your immediate
1:48:41space
1:48:41>> is really hard. So, you know, you're
1:48:43seeing because the pool is so much
1:48:45bigger and there's more people in
1:48:47weightlifting and there's more people in
1:48:49bodybuilding and powerlifting than ever
1:48:51before. So, the skewing of it is just
1:48:54insane. And it goes back to that thing I
1:48:55was saying when I started out 2, three,
1:48:56four, two bench, three squat, four
1:48:58deadlift. That's your strength
1:48:59standards. You hit that you're, you
1:49:01know, if you go 3, four, five, out of
1:49:03this world.
1:49:03>> And to be clear, those are actually good
1:49:05strength.
1:49:05>> They're good. No, for sure. They're
1:49:06really good strength standards, but like
1:49:08it took me a very long time to hit a 200
1:49:10kilo deadlift. And then I can go online,
1:49:12oh, there's a 16-y old
1:49:13>> I know
1:49:13>> doing it. And like you'll get because
1:49:15you'll get someone like an Ed Cohen who
1:49:16supposedly deadlifted like 160 to 200
1:49:19kilos his first time in a gym, right?
1:49:21>> But he's a beginner at that stage.
1:49:23>> Yeah.
1:49:23>> But so you're always going to be
1:49:24comparing yourself. Social media, it's
1:49:26not just in fitness. Like comparison is
1:49:28a thief of happiness.
1:49:29>> But the the standards have inflated
1:49:32>> to the point of absurdity. Yeah, it
1:49:35>> at at this point. Whether it's strength,
1:49:36whether it's physique, whether it's
1:49:38speed or athleticism, it really has
1:49:40gotten beyond proportion because what
1:49:42you'll have is, you know, I'll chat to
1:49:43my students about this like I just I
1:49:45feel really weak, I feel really strong.
1:49:47And I'm like, who are these people in
1:49:49your gym right now
1:49:51>> who are outlifting you or look better
1:49:53than you? And I'm like, you shouldn't
1:49:54obviously,
1:49:55>> you know, not have ambition.
1:49:58>> Yeah.
1:49:58>> But it does need to be contextualized
1:50:00because the 16-year-old who's
1:50:01deadlifting 200 kilos, he's not in my
1:50:04gym. like I've never interacted with
1:50:06them but now suddenly I feel worse
1:50:07because I'm comparing and that's another
1:50:09consequence of social media because it
1:50:10keeps you engaged on it you know the
1:50:12more
1:50:13>> unsettled you are with your own physique
1:50:15the more likely you are to engage with
1:50:17the algorithm or in dangerous practice
1:50:20>> and the truth is and I'll be a little
1:50:21bit of a you know an annoying academic
1:50:25there's a quote in Tolto's book which is
1:50:28time and patience so the French forces
1:50:30are retreating from Russia and there's
1:50:32one general who's like can we get them
1:50:33now can we get them now can we get them
1:50:34know, and the other general says, "No,
1:50:36time and patience. That's how we're
1:50:37going to defeat them.
1:50:38>> Time and patience would be a pretty good
1:50:40motto in fitness, but because you're
1:50:41like, well, they're
1:50:43>> they're better, you know, they're
1:50:44stronger, they're leaner, they're more I
1:50:45need to get that. I We're in such a
1:50:47rush. And because the pool has gotten
1:50:49bigger, as you said, someone will look
1:50:50at you who's certifiably
1:50:53has won things, you know, like and like
1:50:55you don't, you know, you don't win if
1:50:57you're not at a certain standard and be
1:50:59like, yeah." [laughter]
1:51:01Like really, like this is where we're at
1:51:03now. But it's Frank Zane, you know, it's
1:51:05it's anyone.
1:51:07>> And it's so difficult, especially now
1:51:08with filters, with synthol and all of
1:51:11these different things going on.
1:51:12>> Yeah.
1:51:12>> Was that always a thing though? Like
1:51:14that was what I I like is that is that a
1:51:16new thing? I know it's it's it seems
1:51:17like it's gotten worse, but like did
1:51:19people always think that like if I work
1:51:21out for 12 weeks, I'm going to be able
1:51:23to get I'm going to be able to look like
1:51:24that. Cuz I remember even like my dad
1:51:26saying that to me like he he bought a
1:51:28magazine in maybe the
1:51:31>> late '7s or something, right? and he he
1:51:34was like get these arm get abs in 12
1:51:36weeks and like he thought it would just
1:51:38just happen you know um so yeah like
1:51:41have the standards kind of always been
1:51:42skewed through time
1:51:44>> yeah if we look at you know Sunday's
1:51:46books or his workout equipment um
1:51:48pamphlets he had a drawn illustration of
1:51:50his body he would say these are my
1:51:52measurements match your measurements to
1:51:55my measurements because I'm certifiably
1:51:57the world's most perfectly developed
1:51:58specimen
1:51:59>> in the 1920s and 1930s you had a lot of
1:52:01people writing about the ideal
1:52:03standards. Now, sometimes they'd say,
1:52:05well, you know, in Greece there's the
1:52:06golden ratio and you need to build your
1:52:08body like this. Or they'd say, well,
1:52:09Steve Reeves body is this. Let's see if
1:52:11can we match your body to this certain
1:52:13standard. So, we have always looked for
1:52:16a standard.
1:52:17>> Now, the difference is now there's no
1:52:20clear voice, you know, like at least
1:52:21when Sando said
1:52:23>> build a body like mine in 12 weeks or 24
1:52:26weeks,
1:52:27>> there was one Sando,
1:52:28>> you know, and other people were like
1:52:30that's the most perfectly developed
1:52:31specimen. Whereas now there's no real
1:52:34like torchbearer for you know listen
1:52:37we've all agreed as a collective fitness
1:52:39community that this is the standard and
1:52:41we'll measure deviations of this.
1:52:43>> So I think that's where it's different
1:52:45now is because it's much more
1:52:48>> chaotic and you can be in a little like
1:52:49silo where you and 20,000 other people
1:52:52think it's this but you know some 50,000
1:52:55over here think it's something
1:52:56completely different. So that's where
1:52:57social media has differed. But like the
1:52:59physique standards, you know, you have
1:53:01the first before and after physique
1:53:03photos in the 1850s.
1:53:04>> Oh wow.
1:53:05>> Do you know what I mean? So like we've
1:53:06always had a standard and we've always
1:53:07tracked it. They were measuring soldiers
1:53:09chests in the 18.
1:53:11>> So we've always looked for a standard.
1:53:12Yeah.
1:53:13>> But now it's just so chaotic.
1:53:16>> Yeah. Sure. I um I had a conversation
1:53:18with a 19-year-old because I'm I'm doing
1:53:20a video about 100 people who've set New
1:53:23Year's resolutions and we're going to
1:53:24see them throughout the whole year. or
1:53:26see how many actually follow through.
1:53:27Okay. Um and and one of them is is, you
1:53:29know, this 19-year-old and uh he wants
1:53:32to get more ripped and jacked and so on
1:53:34so forth, right? Um and he was saying to
1:53:36me like he was like, "Ah, that's this
1:53:38thing, man. Like I don't know what's
1:53:39wrong with my diet, but like he's like I
1:53:41I have the six-pack, right? But like I
1:53:43can only see it if I'm under like I can
1:53:45only see the bottom two under good
1:53:46lighting and if I flex." He's like, "If
1:53:49I just relax, you can only see the top
1:53:51four."
1:53:52>> And I'm like, "Brother, who are you
1:53:53following, my man?" like this is you
1:53:56like
1:53:58>> where do I begin with this, you know?
1:53:59It's just it's just so skewed. And I
1:54:02think that that is it. I think that
1:54:03like, you know, in the infinite scroll,
1:54:04man, like yeah, you're going to get fed
1:54:07the cream of the crop and some of this
1:54:09cream of the crop is not even real.
1:54:10Whether in the sense that they don't
1:54:11look like that now, they only look like
1:54:13that for a very short period of time and
1:54:14they're just infinite posting that um or
1:54:17it's just literally manipulated. Yep.
1:54:19Right. Um, and like Photoshop AI, like
1:54:23you you now it's you can even manipulate
1:54:25stuff with video. Like it's not just
1:54:26like lighting and angles anymore. Like
1:54:28it's it's pretty crazy. Yeah.
1:54:30>> And we've always had that. Like a good
1:54:32friend of mine, Rachel Ozarkskovich, has
1:54:34looked at photoshopping in the 1910s.
1:54:36They take a photo of themselves and they
1:54:38just start to smudge some of the
1:54:40outline, you know? So we've always had
1:54:42>> great
1:54:43>> this desire to embellish but as you say
1:54:46now there's just so much more
1:54:48sophistication with it and they're using
1:54:50some of the techniques from bygon eras
1:54:53photoshop lights angles you know after a
1:54:56Mr. Olympia, Joe Weider would take
1:54:58dozens and dozens and dozens of
1:54:59photographs of someone in different
1:55:00settings, different contexts, and then
1:55:02trickle them out throughout the year so
1:55:04they look good year round.
1:55:05>> But they're doing it in a much different
1:55:07like technology space. And as you say,
1:55:10the way it just skews
1:55:12>> everything and even it's they're not
1:55:14even getting it in fitness anymore
1:55:15because, you know, in TV and film, all
1:55:19the action movie stars are pushing this
1:55:21kind of physique standard as well. And
1:55:23like, God love him. Frank Gillow did a
1:55:25thing with Men's Health where he was
1:55:27like, "I take TRT and people like, "Oh
1:55:30my god, an actor finally admitting to
1:55:32steroid use."
1:55:33>> So, he did the TRT thing. And then he
1:55:35was like, "But I also train really hard
1:55:37and I push myself and I watch my diet."
1:55:39It's like, "No, Frank, that's all true.
1:55:42We're also taking steroids." And like,
1:55:44you know, changes the equation, my man.
1:55:46>> Yeah.
1:55:46>> So, it's not just a fitness thing.
1:55:48You're getting it. You're getting
1:55:50musicians, you know, doing body
1:55:52transformations, actors, you're getting
1:55:54advertisements for random things doing
1:55:56it. Like my friend is a nurse. She
1:55:58follows a nurse influencer who's selling
1:56:00her workout programs.
1:56:01>> You kind of can't escape it anymore. And
1:56:03I think that reinforces the like body
1:56:06dysmorphia we've all agreed on.
1:56:08>> Yeah. Yeah. So, what's the what's the
1:56:10antidote for that in the social media
1:56:11age? Like delete Instagram, delete Tik
1:56:13Tok, or is there something else?
1:56:15>> Tear down the walls, Jeff. Tear down the
1:56:17walls. I don't know. Like I I wish I had
1:56:21a magic wand. I would hope that people
1:56:23would understand that ultimately they
1:56:24are an N of one. Yeah.
1:56:26>> And what I mean by that is, and I
1:56:27remember chatting to Eric Helms about
1:56:29this. We're actually talking about Ed
1:56:30Cohen. You know, when he was at an
1:56:32intermediate stage, he was probably
1:56:33pulling like 6 or 700 lb in a deadlift.
1:56:36Someone else at an intermediate stage
1:56:38might be pulling like 180. Like, you
1:56:40know, depending depending on their base.
1:56:42They're both intermediates. They might
1:56:43have both pushed themselves in training.
1:56:45They might be monitoring their diet,
1:56:46etc.
1:56:47If the 180 deadlifter compares
1:56:49themselves to Ed Cohen, forget about it.
1:56:51Like just give up. Just give up now. If
1:56:53they compare themselves to six months
1:56:55ago,
1:56:56>> yeah.
1:56:56>> So, and it's a really hard grounded
1:56:58message. But I think they can you learn
1:57:00from others, but you compare to
1:57:02yourself.
1:57:02>> Exactly.
1:57:03>> And it's really hard to get that across
1:57:04to people.
1:57:05>> It is hard to get that across. Um, yeah.
1:57:07I I think like if you're following
1:57:09fitness, like if your goal is to improve
1:57:11your physique, you want to follow
1:57:13fitness content that that educates you.
1:57:16I think it's okay to get motivation from
1:57:19different physiques, but like I think
1:57:21you don't want to put pressure on
1:57:23yourself to look like any other person
1:57:25because you can't like every single
1:57:27person has like even in the cream of the
1:57:30crop like you like
1:57:32>> Ronnie Coleman could never get Phil
1:57:35Heath's triceps, you know what I mean?
1:57:36Like so even when you're looking at the
1:57:38elite level, like you you should really
1:57:40only compare yourself to your starting
1:57:42place. And this is the thing and you
1:57:44know Larry Scott his muscle bellies
1:57:46basically started at his elbow you know
1:57:48like you can see the bicep basically
1:57:50starts right here.
1:57:51>> You can do a million and one preacher
1:57:55curls which Larry Scott credited with
1:57:57that.
1:57:57>> You're not going to change this.
1:57:59>> True.
1:58:00>> But again in fitness because we always
1:58:01need inspiration. We always need a
1:58:03tentpole. We always try and think well
1:58:06if I follow this program I will look
1:58:08like this. And it's hard to shift away
1:58:11from that because that's how the
1:58:12industry has always
1:58:13>> maintained. But I think it's coming to a
1:58:15bit of a breaking point in some respects
1:58:17online because there's just so much
1:58:19happening.
1:58:20>> Yeah.
1:58:20>> And there's so many different physiques
1:58:21that I would like to think that people
1:58:23will engage with the content but then
1:58:25compare
1:58:27>> by themselves or with a friend.
1:58:29>> Sure. Sure. Um Okay. So, one thing I did
1:58:32want to talk to you and since we're on
1:58:33the social media thing, um, I don't know
1:58:36if you've noticed, like Mike Mensor's
1:58:38hit is super popular again now, okay?
1:58:40And there I've noticed this like I I've
1:58:42been on social media for 10 years now
1:58:44and like things come in these cycles and
1:58:47many cycles, right? So, it's like, you
1:58:49know, I've seen
1:58:51>> training to failure be really popular,
1:58:53then not be popular, then be super
1:58:55popular again. And it does come with
1:58:57this like emotional onslaught and
1:58:59attachment to these things. But there
1:59:01are these cycles, right? So it's like
1:59:03really interesting that like Mensor's
1:59:05hit which originated in like the late
1:59:07'7s, early 80s, um
1:59:09>> is now you know 20 wait not 20 45 years
1:59:13later
1:59:15>> not just like hey there's like a niche
1:59:17group of people doing this. It's like
1:59:18the mainstream thing on TikTok, right?
1:59:21Um, are there any other examples that
1:59:23you can think of of things that have
1:59:25been like from history have come back
1:59:27through and [clears throat] people just
1:59:28really latched on to again?
1:59:29>> We've used functional fitness in a
1:59:32variety of ways in the last 20 years to
1:59:34the point where I want to scream. So
1:59:36[laughter] functional fitness in the
1:59:37early 2010s is about single leg work,
1:59:39you know, single limb work. It might
1:59:41balance work, coordination, core, but
1:59:43we'd always use some variation of, you
1:59:45know, you have to be functional. Well,
1:59:46it doesn't matter if you have like a 500
1:59:47lb deadlift if you can't, you know, pick
1:59:49up the shopping bags and then blah blah.
1:59:52Functional fitness then becomes
1:59:53CrossFit.
1:59:54>> CrossFit then becomes high rocks, you
1:59:56know, and we just keep reinventing
1:59:58functional without understanding that
1:59:59fitness is specific. Fit to do what?
2:00:02Because a powerlifter is fit to
2:00:04powerlift. A weightlifter is fit to
2:00:05weightlift. A bodybuilder is fit to look
2:00:07yucky on stage in the most delightful of
2:00:09ways. So functional fitness is
2:00:11definitely something that just gets
2:00:12reinvented. Yeah. And we use a new
2:00:14modality. We'll use some like catchy
2:00:17thing. You know, Greg Glassman in
2:00:19CrossFit was like, I don't care if you
2:00:20can deadlift 300 kilos. I I care if you
2:00:23can deadlift 200 and then run a
2:00:24fiveminute mile. We'll always use some
2:00:26new benchmark. Whatever Hi Rocks does.
2:00:27It's flashing lights and it's expensive.
2:00:29I'm sorry I don't. But functional
2:00:31fitness is one. And then remove a
2:00:33macronutrient.
2:00:35>> Oh,
2:00:35>> is always one. Like Dan John, God bless
2:00:38Dan John as a voice of reason, but he'll
2:00:39be like just walk through the like diet
2:00:41books in a bookstore. Bookstores still
2:00:43exist, people. And just you can see like
2:00:46lowfat, low carb, high protein, you
2:00:48know, he's like just pick a macro
2:00:49macronutrient. People are fiber maxing
2:00:52now, which I find so funny because like
2:00:55>> talk about fafo, you know, like mess
2:00:57around, find out like you overload on
2:01:00fiber like
2:01:01>> Yeah, I didn't I haven't seen that one.
2:01:02>> Yeah, the body keeps the score on fiber.
2:01:04But macronutrient we say cycling right
2:01:07is always a really popular thing. And
2:01:09then there is the new supplement you
2:01:11know so it's
2:01:13>> the new pro hormone. It's the new you
2:01:16know exoteric thing with ingredients
2:01:19from a country that you've not heard of.
2:01:22>> The new supplement revolution is a big
2:01:24thing. And like honestly if we look at
2:01:26supplements okay so like steroids work
2:01:29shock horror. Health risks attached to
2:01:31that as well of course. But then if you
2:01:33look at like supplements that change
2:01:35like move the needle
2:01:36>> protein powder but not in a necessarily
2:01:38physique way but in a convenience way.
2:01:40Creatine does move the needle in a
2:01:42physique way but not
2:01:43>> a little bit
2:01:43>> like not you know but like not to the
2:01:45extent that it gets marketed at
2:01:46pre-workout you feel locked in.
2:01:48>> Yeah. Sure.
2:01:49>> Fish oils your joints might hurt as much
2:01:50like the the supplements are not
2:01:52necessarily night and day.
2:01:54>> Yeah. But because steroids come about in
2:01:56the 1950s at the same time as
2:01:57supplements,
2:01:59>> we always think the supplement needs to
2:02:01be jaw-dropping. You know, the
2:02:03supplement has to be 20 pounds of
2:02:05muscle, 10 pounds of weight loss, 40
2:02:08pounds to your total. Because the people
2:02:10who are marketing the supplements were
2:02:11marketing with steroids,
2:02:13>> real supplements.
2:02:13>> So if someone's like, "This supplement
2:02:15adds
2:02:17>> 10 pounds of lean muscle in 28 days."
2:02:18You're like, "Oh, so it's a steroid."
2:02:20Like gen because we've never had a legal
2:02:22supplement.
2:02:23>> Yeah. that has moved the needle. Even
2:02:25something like a federan gets banned,
2:02:26you know. So supplements are another one
2:02:29of those things that cycle through the
2:02:31new discovery. They'll oftenimes use a
2:02:33very loose understanding of science and
2:02:35then they'll smack on like a
2:02:37jaw-dropping claim. Yeah.
2:02:38>> To that. So that's another one that will
2:02:40cycle in and out alongside hit alongside
2:02:43functional training. They're like the
2:02:45and low carb, low fat, high protein. You
2:02:48don't need to eat as much protein as we
2:02:50usually thought. just like ma, you know,
2:02:52majoring in the minors on
2:02:54macronutrients. They're like the big
2:02:55things, but it's always a breakthrough.
2:02:57Yeah.
2:02:57>> It's always a reaction against
2:02:58something. Even let's be honest, the
2:03:00>> weird tension between bro science and,
2:03:03you know, evidence-based science or
2:03:04hardcore training. It's like,
2:03:06>> but this is just a reaction to this. And
2:03:08the difference is obviously so social
2:03:10media accelerates that.
2:03:12>> Yeah.
2:03:12>> So, hit comes really popular again in
2:03:15the mid 90s when we have internet
2:03:16forums,
2:03:18>> like prebodybuilding.com forums. It's
2:03:20HIT Jedis is what they're called. See
2:03:22some of those.
2:03:23>> You don't. It's a dark [laughter]
2:03:24>> It's a dark It's a dark place, right?
2:03:26You think 4chan is bad.
2:03:28>> Yeah.
2:03:28>> But, you know, the social media kind of
2:03:30accelerates that. So, Mike Manser might
2:03:32drop away now, but he might come back
2:03:33again in a year and a half because
2:03:35there's just so much content being
2:03:36produced that I feel that the trends and
2:03:39the cycles have gotten smaller. As you
2:03:40said, many cycles come around more and
2:03:42more and more.
2:03:43>> Yeah. Yeah. Agree. Agree. All right. So,
2:03:45I'm I'm curious now. What does Connor
2:03:47Hefernan think is the best era? What
2:03:50what physiques do you think wait now how
2:03:53should I phrase this? Which era do you
2:03:54think produce the best physiques?
2:03:57>> Like it's ours like so you know so I
2:03:59will give you the grounded reality and
2:04:01then a preference of mine.
2:04:02>> Sure.
2:04:02>> The grounded reality is 2026.
2:04:05>> People have never been as lean. They've
2:04:06never been as strong. They've never if
2:04:08we're talking about bodybuilding they've
2:04:09never presented on stage with that much
2:04:10muscle mass, that much leanness and that
2:04:12much skill in posing.
2:04:14>> Okay. powerlifting, Olympic
2:04:16weightlifting, strong man, strong woman.
2:04:18>> It's just it's a verifiable fact because
2:04:20there's more people doing it. So,
2:04:22objectively, it's this age.
2:04:24>> Go us. [laughter]
2:04:26>> From a philosophical point of view, for
2:04:29me, it would probably be the 1930s,
2:04:311940s because I love the idea of a John
2:04:35Grimick physique. I love the idea of
2:04:37someone who's muscular, lean, but not
2:04:39too lean, but is also engaged in some
2:04:41form of and I'm just after ragging on
2:04:44functional, but like the idea of being
2:04:46lean enough to be impressive, but
2:04:48athletic enough to lift heavy weights.
2:04:49Yeah.
2:04:50>> For me, that's kind of my preference.
2:04:51And then when they would pose, the
2:04:53posing was so different. It was more
2:04:55about hitting an artistic ideal than,
2:04:57you know, from being on stage, tense
2:04:59every single bit of your body. Yeah.
2:05:01Whereas you look at the most famous John
2:05:03Grimmik pose. He's leaning against a
2:05:04pillar. He has one bicep up like this.
2:05:06He's not even really tensing his body
2:05:08that much because it's there's more of
2:05:10an aesthetic artistic. So like my
2:05:11preference is 30s, 40s. My objective
2:05:14evaluation is obviously now because
2:05:16>> uh 18year-old powerlifter now would be
2:05:20turning heads in the 1980s. So it's
2:05:22objectively now.
2:05:24>> Yeah, that's a good that's a good point.
2:05:26Um I think as far as like yeah I would
2:05:28agree that objectively now especially if
2:05:30you consider like um
2:05:33>> like the breadth of success like you
2:05:36know the the top 20 on a bodybuilding
2:05:39stage now are all amazing you know um
2:05:42and then if you were to get a top 100
2:05:44they would all be amazing too. It's it's
2:05:45just so many impressive physiques now.
2:05:48Um
2:05:49>> I think my favorite era was probably
2:05:52like late 70s early 80s. Like I like the
2:05:54I like the Arnold actually probably
2:05:56before 80s probably probably like early
2:05:58'7s pumping iron.
2:05:59>> Yeah, I like the pumping iron. I like
2:06:01Franco Columbo and like I know that
2:06:03those physiques were not natural but
2:06:05like they're also not
2:06:07>> mutant looking, you know, like they
2:06:10actually to me that's like
2:06:12>> peak physique, you know, not quite
2:06:14achievable like for a natural, but at
2:06:17the same time
2:06:18>> Yeah. Yeah. like not there's no like
2:06:20obvious signs of like extreme abuse, you
2:06:23know, of drugs. So, um I would say that
2:06:25would be like aesthetically that would
2:06:27be my favorite era. Um
2:06:30>> but the more I get into like reading
2:06:33about some of the like early culture, it
2:06:35it's so fascinating. There's so even
2:06:37just speaking to you now, I'm like,
2:06:38"Wow, like there's so much that I could
2:06:40learn about this stuff." Like you you
2:06:41have such a deep grasp on all of this
2:06:44stuff. I mean, I guess you would. It's
2:06:45all you do. That's all. [laughter]
2:06:46>> Yeah. No, it's it's it's truly
2:06:49incredible. I'd love to have you back on
2:06:50and do this again, man. Like I'd love to
2:06:53I'd love to explore some more of the
2:06:54like societal stuff that we kind of
2:06:56touched on like and and some of the
2:06:58global impacts of this, you know, the
2:07:01like get get a little more into the
2:07:03history. Like I feel like this was a a
2:07:04nice like overview, but I feel like your
2:07:06your knowledge on this just runs so
2:07:08deep. I've never spoken to somebody who
2:07:10knows all this stuff because it is like
2:07:12it it has to be a small field, man. Like
2:07:15I feel like, you know, in the
2:07:16science-based
2:07:18world, like we have a lot of people who
2:07:20are like exercise physiologists and
2:07:21nutritionists and this kind of thing,
2:07:23like I don't know how many historians
2:07:24there are in this area. You're the only
2:07:27one I think I know.
2:07:27>> Thank you for letting me do a shout out.
2:07:29So Jan Todd and Terry Todd who are at
2:07:31the University of Texas. Terry
2:07:32unfortunately passed away a number of
2:07:34years ago. They're kind of the pioneers
2:07:35within the space alongside a man called
2:07:37David Webster. You then have people like
2:07:39uh David Chapman who wrote a biography
2:07:41on Eugene Sand which is wonderful. John
2:07:43Far has written a number of books.
2:07:44Muscle Town USA, Mr. America just
2:07:46written a new book called The Es
2:07:48Strength. You have people like Rachel
2:07:49Ozerkovich, um Charles Stalking. There's
2:07:52about 10 of us, you know, if anyone's an
2:07:54Arrested Development fan. There are
2:07:55dozens of us, dozens, you know, at the
2:07:57G.
2:07:58>> So, it's a really small field. More
2:08:00people are beginning to come to it and
2:08:02you'll start to see a lot of really good
2:08:03like popular histories of fitness
2:08:05emerging. There's a wonderful journalist
2:08:07with New York Times, Danielle
2:08:08Freriedman. Um, there's a woman Natalie
2:08:10I can't begins with P and ends in A. I
2:08:12can't remember her surname. She wrote a
2:08:14really good book, but it's
2:08:15>> What's the book?
2:08:16>> Fit Nation.
2:08:17>> I I actually have that. I haven't read
2:08:19it yet, but yeah,
2:08:20>> really good book. She's a good podcast
2:08:21as well. So, more people are beginning
2:08:23to come to it because fitness is
2:08:25becoming to quote Thanos undeniable, you
2:08:28know, because
2:08:29>> you're starting to see it in obviously
2:08:30gym cultures, but education like Toronto
2:08:33airport has a a gym in it. So, it's
2:08:35beginning to become harder to ignore. So
2:08:37even when I started doing my PhD 2016
2:08:392019, a historian who's a very
2:08:42respectful historian, he or she sat down
2:08:44with me and said, "I don't think what
2:08:46you're talking about mattered." And she
2:08:48and they he or she was like, "I don't
2:08:51mean that you're not good at what you
2:08:53do. I just don't really see why this
2:08:54matters. Like, why should we care about
2:08:56this?" A couple of years ago, I bumped
2:08:58into them and their their child had
2:09:00gotten into weight training. They're
2:09:01like, "Oh, I get this now because it can
2:09:03be so all-encompassing for the
2:09:05individual." So if you don't know
2:09:07fitness, it's hard sometimes to
2:09:09understand why you would study it. If
2:09:10you have a a glancing familiarity with
2:09:13it, I think you get it. So there's more
2:09:15people coming to it, but really as a
2:09:17field, it's the late 80s, early 90s, and
2:09:20it's people like Jan Todd and Terry Todd
2:09:22who are powerlifterss turned historians
2:09:24who like break the ground for us. Terry
2:09:27wrote the first PhD on physical culture
2:09:29in the US. So, it's a really small
2:09:31field, but it's becoming more popular
2:09:34because fitness is becoming harder to
2:09:36ignore.
2:09:36>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's well said.
2:09:38Before we wrap up, I want you to tell me
2:09:39about a couple of these things we've got
2:09:40scattered on the table here. So, so what
2:09:43this is just the one that's closest to
2:09:44me. What is this?
2:09:45>> So, this book that we have here, which
2:09:46is Super Strength by Alan Calvert. So,
2:09:48we've mentioned Alan Calvert before.
2:09:50He's the man who creates the first
2:09:52mainstream fitness manufacturing plant
2:09:54in the US, creating barbells and
2:09:56dumbbells. You can see one of his early
2:09:58kettle bells from Milo Barbell. And
2:10:00Calvert's really interesting because he
2:10:02was a 5B dumbbell guy,
2:10:04>> but he realized that it was complete
2:10:06hokum. So Alan Calvert saw Eugene Sando
2:10:10at the Colombian World Exposition 1893.
2:10:13He said, "I want to look like that. I
2:10:14want to build a physique like that." He
2:10:16did the 5B dumbbell sticktick for a
2:10:18little while. He's like, "My man's lying
2:10:20here." [laughter] You know what I mean?
2:10:21He's like, "Say less. I know I need to
2:10:22lift heavy weights." So he starts to
2:10:24manufacture dumbbells and barbells and
2:10:26he starts to build physiques like this.
2:10:29>> I mean this is insane like
2:10:30>> for early 1900s and he has you can hold
2:10:33on to that. He has Milo barbell but he
2:10:35produces strength magazine the first
2:10:37mainstream weightlifting magazine 1914
2:10:40in the US and he starts to promote heavy
2:10:42weight training because he's selling
2:10:44barbells and dumbbells right like
2:10:46there's a business element to it but you
2:10:48can see here some of the movements that
2:10:49he's promoting. Incredible.
2:10:51>> And you can see the exercises. So you
2:10:53can see the two-handed deadlifted
2:10:55weight. And this is heels together
2:10:56again.
2:10:57>> Oh yes. Let's see. So this was the
2:10:58deadlift technique you were talking
2:10:59about.
2:11:00>> Really, really close with the feet
2:11:02flared out.
2:11:03>> Exactly. But you can see him promoting
2:11:05around the same time that five pound
2:11:07dumbbells exist. Yeah.
2:11:08>> And Alan Calbert's so funny because he
2:11:11believes in lifting weights. He has his
2:11:14own strength standard. So he says here,
2:11:15you know, in a book which I wrote a
2:11:16dozen years ago, I said that the average
2:11:18amateur man 170 pounds should be able to
2:11:20lift a 250lb barbell above his head with
2:11:23both hands.
2:11:23>> Sheesh, that's hard.
2:11:24>> Yeah. Right. [laughter] He's like, come
2:11:26on. Um
2:11:27>> Yeah.
2:11:28>> But he then turns against weight
2:11:29training and weightlifting. And
2:11:31actually, this is very serendipitous. He
2:11:34starts to focus on muscle um control.
2:11:37>> This physique is insane, by the way.
2:11:39Like just look at the back development
2:11:40here. Like I I I'm not joking. Like if
2:11:42if this guy was on social media today,
2:11:45there's no way people would believe he's
2:11:46natural.
2:11:46>> Yeah. And even better, so Otto Arco was
2:11:49part of a new generation who did muscle
2:11:51control. So if you've ever seen people
2:11:52who do the stomach vacuum, that's a
2:11:54really
2:11:55>> entrylevel move into muscle control.
2:11:58They could like
2:12:00>> modulate the, you know, so you've seen
2:12:02so the ab muscles, the right side stays
2:12:04out while the left side stays in. They
2:12:06could do it with their lats and the back
2:12:07muscles. So one side would stay flexed,
2:12:09the other side would kind of concave in.
2:12:11But Calbertt, he produces a book
2:12:13eventually called The Truth About
2:12:14Weightlifting where he starts to say,
2:12:16"Well, you don't need to lift heavy
2:12:17weights.
2:12:18>> You should focus on like muscle control
2:12:20and concentration when you're training."
2:12:21So, he actually falls away from heavy
2:12:24weight training and becomes completely
2:12:26disillusioned, sells his magazine, sells
2:12:27his barbell company. But this is really
2:12:30like one of those early lift heavy, use
2:12:33barbells, use dumbbells, and you can
2:12:35build Sandow's physique over Eugen
2:12:39Sandow, you know, 5B dumbbells, etc. So,
2:12:42it's a really important like early
2:12:45origin story for strength-based training
2:12:47in America.
2:12:48>> So cool. So cool. And when was when was
2:12:50this?
2:12:50>> This is like 1910, 1914, give or take.
2:12:53>> And this an original copy?
2:12:54>> This original copy. Wow. Only the best
2:12:55for Jeff. Only the best. I bring you the
2:12:57best. Okay. So, this is the sand these
2:12:59are Sandow's dumbbells here.
2:13:01>> These this is the because when you buy
2:13:03Sandow's dumbbells, it would come with
2:13:04the dumbbells themselves. We have a
2:13:05wonderful cloth that Sandow gives so you
2:13:07could polish your dumbbells. So, I hope
2:13:09you're polishing your weights in the
2:13:10light and dark side of your gym, Jeff.
2:13:12But this is the original polisher of the
2:13:14Sando dumbbells.
2:13:15>> Oh, this is what you would polish it
2:13:17with.
2:13:17>> Well, you mean it's got to be spark.
2:13:18>> What's the point of polishing it? Just
2:13:20just so it looks pretty.
2:13:21>> You know, you're in your room by
2:13:21yourself, you have your cloth, you're
2:13:22just polishing your dumbbell. You know,
2:13:24it's fine. like people. So, you'd get
2:13:26your polished uh dumbbell, you would
2:13:28have your cloth, and then you'd have
2:13:29your exercises. So, here's a funny one
2:13:32for you, right? And this is actually
2:13:33your tippy toe squat, which we have
2:13:36here.
2:13:37>> So, Sandow's workout. Compare that to
2:13:39Alan Calbert, who's publishing a couple
2:13:41of years later. It's like lightweight
2:13:43dumbbells in your hand, tippy toe
2:13:45squats, sit-ups, push-ups, kind of like
2:13:47a lunging overhead press where you'd
2:13:49stick one leg forward and push overhead.
2:13:52This is probably the most influential
2:13:54workout system.
2:13:55>> Yeah.
2:13:56>> of the first half of the 20th century.
2:13:58>> Incredible.
2:13:59>> Because sando is selling all over the
2:14:00world and they're all getting a book or
2:14:02a variation of this book. So, it's
2:14:04probably one of the most done workouts
2:14:06before the 1960s, 1970s.
2:14:09>> It's really neat how they, you know,
2:14:10they got the the the technique demos
2:14:12here and they they do a tracing. Oh,
2:14:14I've I've actually never seen that. The
2:14:16>> trace lines. Well, it's funny because
2:14:17how do you teach people an exercise
2:14:19without a video, right? So sometimes
2:14:21they do sequential shots, you know,
2:14:23barbell on the ground. Sometimes it
2:14:24would be uh a finished shot. So one of
2:14:27my favorite things comes in 1970s.
2:14:29Someone's trying to teach Olympic
2:14:30weightlifting. So it's d it's barbell on
2:14:32the ground and then barbell overhead
2:14:34>> and then text for what to do in between.
2:14:36>> Wow.
2:14:37>> Whereas these are again trying to figure
2:14:38out how do we teach people how to lift
2:14:40weights
2:14:42>> without video, without coaching. And
2:14:44again, this is one of the most done
2:14:47workouts using these. You left a little
2:14:50scuff mark there and you're polishing.
2:14:51We'll get we'll get it later. You know,
2:14:53one of those
2:14:54>> the polish rag needs a polish.
2:14:56>> It's It's [laughter] been through the
2:14:57war. I mean, you be 100 years old and
2:14:59still look at your true.
2:15:02>> So, that's one of those early workouts.
2:15:04So important. And then over here,
2:15:06>> hold on one second. I need to say, so we
2:15:08have Sandow's concentrated embroation.
2:15:13>> Yeah, the heck is that?
2:15:14>> You and the bros, you watch the game,
2:15:15you embroate yourself. Embro.
2:15:17>> It's a It's a m It's a basically like I
2:15:20call it deep heat. You know, like if you
2:15:22had a sore muscle, you'd rub the cream
2:15:23on and it would Is that what it is?
2:15:25Yeah. So, that was one of actually one
2:15:26of the first supplements that strong men
2:15:28and strong women promoted in the 1880s,
2:15:301890s was basically like muscle rub, you
2:15:33know, like, oh, like my elbow's a bit
2:15:34sore. I'm going to rub. So, he sold
2:15:36embroation.
2:15:37>> This guy was a hustler. I didn't know he
2:15:39had so much going on.
2:15:40>> Jay-Z, I'm not a businessman. I'm a
2:15:42businessman.
2:15:42>> Okay, these look really old. What do we
2:15:44have here?
2:15:45probably the best marketing campaign in
2:15:49fitness bar none. So if I called you uh
2:15:52you know 34 or was it the 84 pound
2:15:56weakling
2:15:57>> would you know what that means or just
2:15:58be like Connor's being heard now I've
2:15:59heard it before. No I thought it was 99
2:16:0298 pound weakling. This is it. This is
2:16:04Charles Atlas.
2:16:05>> Oh okay. Okay.
2:16:06>> So in the 1930s Charles Atlas and his
2:16:08business partner Charles Roman create
2:16:10the most
2:16:11>> like viral fitness campaign arguably
2:16:14ever. It's a series of cartoons that
2:16:15shows a young man at a beach with a
2:16:17woman. Bullies come over, throw him to
2:16:20the ground, kick sand in his face. He
2:16:22goes away, does the Atlas workout, comes
2:16:24back, defeats the bullies, get the girl.
2:16:26>> Yeah.
2:16:26>> Atlas would have advertisements in comic
2:16:28books, fitness magazines, newspapers
2:16:30saying, "I can make a He-Man out of you
2:16:31in 12, you know, 12 weeks, whatever the
2:16:34case may be." He would sell these are
2:16:37called mail orderer workouts. So, you'd
2:16:39sign up and every month you would get a
2:16:41new lesson from Charles Atlas. And he's
2:16:44a really interesting cat because he
2:16:46would sell uh body weight only
2:16:48exercises. So his system was entirely
2:16:50body weight only. So no equipment
2:16:52needed. It was oftentimes he'd call it
2:16:54dynamic tension. So instead of a bicep
2:16:56curl with a dumbbell, you'd have one
2:16:58hand, you know, pointed up here. I'll do
2:16:59it for the camera. Other hand pointed
2:17:01there. And you'd push.
2:17:02>> Wow.
2:17:02>> Kind of like isometric early isometric.
2:17:05>> Okay.
2:17:05>> But [clears throat] Atlas sold books
2:17:07around the world. He sold these mail
2:17:10order workouts because there was no
2:17:12equipment needed. More people could do
2:17:14it. And like Sando, he is a global
2:17:16figure and these were, you know, so
2:17:18widespread. He had offices in New York
2:17:20or in America and in London. He hired,
2:17:23you know, hundreds of people to deal
2:17:24with the volume of letters that he was
2:17:26getting. So he was one of those people
2:17:28who again just helped to nudge fitness
2:17:31more into the mainstream. Now, he can be
2:17:32controversial for some people because he
2:17:34would say dumbbells and barbells don't
2:17:35work, which obviously you're going to
2:17:37say if you're selling something that's
2:17:39the antithesis of it.
2:17:40>> There was actually a court case between
2:17:42Bob Hoffman of York Barbell and Charles
2:17:44Atlas about who was telling the truth
2:17:46about their systems. The judge threw it
2:17:49out because the two men were bickering
2:17:50so much and at one point Atlas did a
2:17:52handstand to show [laughter]
2:17:54how effective he was. But again
2:17:57>> brings [snorts] more people into fitness
2:17:58like Sando like Arnold like Jane Fonda
2:18:01raises people's awareness and also
2:18:03willingness to exercise right because
2:18:06for so long people thought weight
2:18:08training or you know would make you
2:18:09muscle bound uncoordinated athletic
2:18:12coaches would say don't do that and
2:18:14Jason Shirley Jan Todd and Terry Todd
2:18:16have a book called the invention of uh
2:18:18strength training
2:18:19>> which talks about this but people like
2:18:22Atlas Sando Arnold etc just kind nudge
2:18:25people, you know, it's okay. You can
2:18:27lift, you know, you can you can take
2:18:28time to work out. You can build muscles.
2:18:30You can build your physique. And this is
2:18:32important because he marketed them in
2:18:34comic books,
2:18:35>> in mechanic weekly magazines, in
2:18:38newspapers, not necessarily even in
2:18:40fitness, but it was in the mainstream to
2:18:42the extent that like the Rocky Horror
2:18:44Picture Show,
2:18:44>> which my we're about the same
2:18:46generation. I'm a nerd. I really like
2:18:48Rocky Horror Picture Show. Take a jump
2:18:49to the left. They reference Charles
2:18:51Atlas in it in the 1970s. There's a song
2:18:53called Charles Atlas which is making fun
2:18:55of kind of the Charles Atlas of the
2:18:561930s. So he punches into mainstream
2:18:59American culture.
2:19:00>> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's what I want to
2:19:02do with the the lab and everything, you
2:19:04know, um
2:19:06in a less uh
2:19:08in a less charlatan driven way. Not to
2:19:10say that he was a charlatan, but there
2:19:12seems like there was like a little bit
2:19:14of um
2:19:15>> Well, there's marketing and there's
2:19:17always marketing with that. And this is
2:19:19the thing where I say fitness has always
2:19:20had marketing embedded in it. Yeah.
2:19:23>> And there are many roads to the
2:19:24mountaintop, you know, and if it's
2:19:25Atlas, and there's a great book produced
2:19:27by Charles Gaines, who wrote pumping
2:19:28iron
2:19:30>> about Atlas and his system, and it does
2:19:32show people who had transformations with
2:19:33it, you know. So, like, who am I to to
2:19:35judge that when other people have had a
2:19:37transformation, but there's always been
2:19:38marketing like, you know, and there's
2:19:40always been
2:19:41>> Blaster Biceps, perfect your body, etc.
2:19:43to
2:19:44>> hook people into Yeah. that. And you can
2:19:46see it. So, like the one of the last
2:19:48things I have there is a magazine from
2:19:501898.
2:19:51>> Oh, wow. Is that what this is?
2:19:52>> One of the first Yeah, this is what this
2:19:54is.
2:19:54>> This is from 1898.
2:19:56>> One of the first fitness magazines. Now,
2:19:58Sando publishes magazine uh Sando's
2:20:00magazine of physical culture in around
2:20:02this time as well. But this is like one
2:20:04of the early fitness points and you can
2:20:06see in it
2:20:07>> advertisements for workout equipment,
2:20:09right? You can see physique photos, you
2:20:11can see articles on how to train in it.
2:20:13So, we've always had these different
2:20:16ways of marketing fitness
2:20:18>> and they've evolved over time. more
2:20:20people have come into it. But again, you
2:20:23can just see that what we're doing did
2:20:25not come out of the ether in, you know,
2:20:282011 or 2012. There's been 150 years of
2:20:31people figuring it out. We've dropped
2:20:33stuff away. So, to your point, Jeff, you
2:20:35know, what does, you know, people might
2:20:36ask, what does science bring? What do
2:20:39you see being marketed there that uh
2:20:41raise
2:20:42>> literally see sausage revelations,
2:20:45putrid cats meat used in their
2:20:47[laughter] manufacturer? Um, oh man, how
2:20:51about your wrist? Yeah, this is this is
2:20:54crazy. I would need to,
2:20:55>> but you know, when you're like, well,
2:20:56what a science added. You can see how
2:20:59people market certain things that don't
2:21:00exist anymore. We've dropped them by the
2:21:02wayside.
2:21:03>> Even,
2:21:04>> man. I'm not even going to lie, though.
2:21:05Like, they have, you know, like, why not
2:21:07an arm like this? And it's just, you
2:21:08know, a guy with some biceps here, you
2:21:10know. Um, get the McFaten chest
2:21:13developer. Very strong.
2:21:15>> Very strong. Not not medium strong. Very
2:21:17[laughter] strong. That's crazy. Wow.
2:21:19>> So, the marketing exists in tandem with
2:21:22the good information and it kind of
2:21:23always has.
2:21:24>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting, man.
2:21:26So interesting. All right. Um I think
2:21:28I'll wrap it up there if if there's
2:21:29anything you want to you want to
2:21:31mention. I'm really curious like where
2:21:33where can people follow you or what's
2:21:34the best way to like get access to your
2:21:36your knowledge base?
2:21:38>> I'm dreadful online, but I have my own
2:21:40website, Physical Culture Study, which I
2:21:42started in 2019 or 2014, pardon me. I
2:21:44have a Substack. You can find me on
2:21:46Twitter. That's basically it for me.
2:21:47Now, the thing that I care more about is
2:21:49people engaging with this knowledge. So,
2:21:51the strongmanp project.com started by
2:21:53the University of Texas in collaboration
2:21:55with Rogue Fitness. Strongmanpro.com,
2:21:57free online archive. Anyone can use it.
2:21:59You'll find old workouts, biographies,
2:22:01everything there.
2:22:02>> The Stark Center at the University of
2:22:04Texas has free digital aids. Strength
2:22:06magazine, which was started by Alan
2:22:08Calvert in 1914, the full run of
2:22:10Strength Magazine for 10 years is there.
2:22:12Click in PDF is there. You
2:22:14[clears throat] have people like um
2:22:15Marcus Kmenu, I know you've done
2:22:17something with barbell films. Oh yeah.
2:22:18Uh Golden Era Bookworm does a lot of
2:22:20good stuff. The Titan Slacks of Desco
2:22:22Ban. It's just a website that's been
2:22:24running for 20 years with just new
2:22:26articles from the 60s,7s, 80s, 90s that
2:22:29you can find. So there's a lot of good
2:22:31information that people can freely
2:22:33access. Even archive.org, you can type
2:22:35in bodybuilding PDF and you'll get
2:22:36Sando's book or Alan Calver's book or
2:22:38Arthur Saxon. And the reason why I think
2:22:40it's valuable for people to engage with
2:22:42the knowledge, not necessarily the
2:22:44historian,
2:22:45>> is I think it adds perspective to
2:22:47everything that we do. I think it gives
2:22:48you more tools for your training, more
2:22:50exercises. I think it gives you
2:22:52perspective.
2:22:52>> Yeah.
2:22:53>> And I think it just encourages you to
2:22:56not be dogmatic
2:22:57>> because how can you know the single one
2:23:00way to do something
2:23:01>> if no one has gotten there in 150 years?
2:23:04So, Strongman Project, Stark Center,
2:23:06Titan Slack, Descoan, Marcus Kment,
2:23:09Physical Culture Study, and then there's
2:23:10a ream of books by David Chapman, John
2:23:12Far, John Todd, Jason Shirley, Shannon
2:23:15Walsh, all of these people. So, please
2:23:16just go out and experience a little bit
2:23:19of the individual.
2:23:20>> Yeah, I know. I know. I'm going to I'm
2:23:22going to I'm going to get a list from
2:23:23you of all the stuff you just mentioned.
2:23:24I'll put it in the description box. And
2:23:26I'm going to order all the books that
2:23:27you just said cuz this is like a whole
2:23:28new area of intrigue for me. And I'm
2:23:31kind of regretting that I'm this deep
2:23:32into my fitness career. And I I'm only
2:23:34just now getting interested in this. But
2:23:35I guess it's better late than never. And
2:23:37you know, I mean, at a certain point,
2:23:39it's like, okay, well, how much more
2:23:40time do I, you know, want to invest in
2:23:43chasing like the final few millimeters
2:23:45on my biceps? A bit. A bit of time.
2:23:48>> But then, you know, with the rest of the
2:23:50time, I can uh I can start learning
2:23:52about this stuff. Yeah. Exactly. Okay.
2:23:53So that that's fantastic, Connor. I
2:23:54really really do appreciate it. Um yeah,
2:23:57for anybody still listening, um I'll
2:23:58link all that stuff down below. Um if
2:24:01you are not yet subscribed, make sure
2:24:03you subscribe. Um and leave us a thumbs
2:24:06up if you enjoyed it. And I'll see you
2:24:07guys all here in the next

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