YT YouTube2Text

YouTube2Text → Transcripts → How Osama Bin Laden Built a Terror Network & 9/11 | Aimen Dean | FO550 Raj Shamani

How Osama Bin Laden Built a Terror Network & 9/11 | Aimen Dean | FO550 Raj Shamani — Transcript

by Raj Shamani · 27,077 words · 4,608 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

Open in transcriber Summarize with AI Download SRT/VTT

Full transcript

0:00You were a double agent and a spy in one
0:03of the most dreaded terrorist groups in
0:06the world. You were a part of Al-Qaeda.
0:08You swore personal allegiance to Osama
0:10bin Laden.
0:11>> On the 4th of August, 1996, we were
0:14there. So, we enter, we're going to meet
0:15Osama bin Laden. You have to go, you
0:16have to meet him in person. He needs to
0:18know you. He's like a big brother. He is
0:20like such a caring character.
0:22>> Osama bin Laden
0:23>> Osama bin Laden
0:24>> Osama bin Laden
0:25>> Osama bin Laden
0:26>> Take me to the point where you were
0:28swearing your life to Osama bin Laden.
0:30>> You're sitting in front of him, you
0:31extend your hand, and then during the
0:33handshake, you recite the oath of
0:35allegiance.
0:35>> And what do you say?
0:36>> You say that I give you my allegiance to
0:38listen to you, obey you, and never
0:40disobey you. And I
0:43That's it. It's over. I'm now in a
0:45member of Al-Qaeda.
0:46>> You were sent to this camp where you
0:48learned bomb making. Give me a visual of
0:50this camp.
0:51>> Look, it's a three rooms. So, there is
0:52the storage room.
0:55There is the living quarters, and there
0:56is the training room.
0:58And there are only four learners at each
1:01time. And in front of us is Abu Khabab,
1:04the most celebrated legendary jihadi
1:06bomb maker ever. You know, years, his
1:09bed was actually a mattress on top of
1:11800 grenades stacked on top of each
1:13other. So, that's how mad he was. So, he
1:15told us, in the art of bomb making, the
1:17first mistake is your last mistake.
1:19>> What is the main source of funding for
1:20these terrorist camps?
1:21>> First of all, if they have a territory,
1:23they will exploit natural resources in
1:25them. They will do kidnapping,
1:26extortion, criminality, smuggling, in
1:29fact, hostages. All of this is a way of
1:31getting money.
1:34>> In these containers, they used to have
1:35all weapons.
1:36>> Oh, yeah.
1:36>> There was this written that don't worry,
1:38we like the color of blood.
1:39>> Yes.
1:40>> Why would they write something like
1:41this?
1:42>> It's all about psychological warfare.
1:43You want to tell your enemy that, you
1:45know, we are ruthless.
1:47>> You're telling me one person's ideology
1:49and one book actually led to rise of
1:53ISIS, Al-Qaeda, movements in South
1:56Sudan.
1:56>> The people who committed the atrocities
1:58in Mumbai in 2008,
2:019/11,
2:03>> [music]
2:03>> Nairobi, 1998,
2:06Bali in 2002.
2:09All of these trace back to one
2:10individual, Sayyid Qutb. Who is Sayyid
2:12Qutb? He is
2:14When you were hired by British
2:16intelligence and you went back to
2:17Afghanistan, what were you reporting the
2:19intelligence officers?
2:21What was the most shocking thing that
2:23you saw?
2:24All these organizations, which are
2:26terror group organizations, they seduce
2:27young men.
2:33I have a small favor to ask you. I need
2:35you to subscribe to our channel. The
2:37more subscribers we have, the better and
2:40bigger guests we can bring and provide
2:42you more value through these
2:43conversations. And also, the full audio
2:46experience of the show is available on
2:49Spotify, where you can follow us and
2:51stream and listen to all our episodes.
2:54When you need to send something small
2:56like product samples or documents for
2:58your business, finding the right
2:59transport partner is a hassle because
3:02they either don't transport small stuff
3:04or cost way more than they should.
3:06That's why I use Porter. Their
3:08two-wheelers transport goods up to 20
3:11kg, making logistics much easier and
3:13more accessible. And the best part is
3:16that with Porter, you never have to
3:18negotiate on price. Whatever rate you
3:20see on the app is exactly what you pay.
3:23They make sure your goods reach smoothly
3:26every time. To know more about our title
3:28sponsor, Porter, and their services,
3:31check the link in the description below.
3:37So,
3:39you
3:42you were a double agent and a spy
3:46in one of the most dreaded terrorist
3:49groups in the world.
3:52You
3:53You swore personal allegiance to Osama
3:56bin Laden. You were a part of Al-Qaeda
3:59and you were a spy at the same time.
4:02Tell me take me to the point where
4:06you were swearing your life to Osama bin
4:09Laden. Was he there?
4:11>> Yeah. I mean, of course, you can't um
4:13shake hands and swear an allegiance to
4:15someone who wasn't there.
4:16>> [laughter]
4:16>> No, I mean, maybe this happens in a camp
4:19in a group at a place where he's
4:22He looks from somewhere or were you like
4:25just present there?
4:26>> No, no, no. You have to go. You have to
4:27meet him in person. He need to know you.
4:29He need to see you. He need to talk to
4:31you. He need to ask you questions.
4:33You know, but not in an intimidating
4:35way.
4:36He is like a big brother. He is like,
4:38you know, such a caring character. I
4:40know you Yeah, he's a caring, you know,
4:43individual. He was a caring individual.
4:45He was a an individual who acted in a um
4:49fatherly, older brotherly kind of
4:51manner. Like an I mean, he was there to
4:53make you feel comfortable.
4:55At the end of the day, you know, these
4:56organizations,
4:58you know, you join them because you
5:00believe. You want to go and join. They
5:01are going to pay you money. They are not
5:03going to like an I mean, give you power
5:04or you know, straight away or anything.
5:06So, you know, so they need to make you
5:09feel comfortable. No one wakes up
5:11one day
5:13and
5:14decide to become a terrorist. You know,
5:16it doesn't work like that. I mean, in
5:18the 1980s, it was the Afghan Jihad in a
5:20pulling in a people into believing in
5:22the Jihad idea, the revival of Jihadism.
5:26Um and then you have, of course, the uh
5:30the Bosnian, you know, genocide that was
5:33taking place uh between 1992 and 1995.
5:37So,
5:38for me I was a young uh Bahraini uh
5:41individual. I come from a family that is
5:43half Bahraini, half Saudi.
5:45>> Okay.
5:46>> So, my two uncles are Saudi and my
5:48cousin my first cousins are Saudis and I
5:50have actually first cousins who are
5:51Emirates also.
5:52Um and I'm a Bahraini. Was born in Saudi
5:54Arabia growing up in Saudi Arabia, you
5:56know, and so
5:58for me I was growing up like in I mean
6:01with all of these ideals about like you
6:03know what's happening in the Afghan
6:04Jihad was you know something that was
6:07always broadcasted um you know through
6:10the Islamic awareness circles that I was
6:14attending at that time.
6:15Saudi Arabia was a very conservative
6:17country at that time very different from
6:19now. I mean the level of improvement you
6:21see right now, no. This is not the Saudi
6:23Arabia that I grew up in.
6:25The Saudi Arabia I grew up in
6:27was a country that is conservative and
6:30was keeping
6:31um hold of tradition.
6:33And so when I was growing up you know,
6:37you don't see female faces in a
6:39basically you know there is a total
6:40segregation between men and women except
6:42like you know within the same household
6:43that's fine but like you know outside of
6:44it but no. But then I come from a
6:46household where I have my mother but
6:48also I have my five brothers so we are
6:49six brothers like in a six boys and so I
6:51was the youngest.
6:52And I was
6:54from a young age um very much drawn to
6:57learning. You know and I was more
6:59dedicated towards learning.
7:01Um I wasn't like you know basically very
7:03sporty individual. I wasn't like you
7:04know I'm following you know football or
7:06any of other sports or you know um I was
7:10more or less uh
7:12um
7:13drawn into learning and one of the
7:15avenues of learning that I love very
7:17much was history. Now
7:19uh within the Muslim country and
7:21especially like Saudi Arabia you do not
7:24you do not learn history without
7:25learning Islam. You know you can't. It's
7:27like this is the birthplace of Islam.
7:29And therefore you are drawn into
7:31religion a lot.
7:32Add to this that I grew up in the 1980s.
7:35The Afghan Jihad was happening. The you
7:37know and I lived in uh the city of
7:39Khobar where Aramco was. My father was
7:41Aramco. All my three uncles were Aramco,
7:43my cousins were Aramco. So, I I I I joke
7:47sometimes that, you know, if I do a DNA
7:50test, I I I will see a lot of petroleum
7:52products there. You know what I mean?
7:54[laughter]
7:55In the genome sequencing
7:57test, but um you know, and because of
7:59Aramco, you know, it was, you know, a a
8:03city full of other nationalities.
8:05So, you know, so there were a lot of
8:07Americans, you know, Dutch, British, you
8:10know, and South Koreans. South Koreans
8:13were, you know, a lot of like in South
8:15Koreans like you know, were living in
8:16our neighborhood even.
8:17When I grew up, it's like it's it's it's
8:19a random thing. It's just like to say
8:20that, well, my neighborhood in Saudi
8:22Arabia had lots of South Koreans. It's
8:24really really random, but um
8:27and also um
8:29uh the fact that
8:30the Iran-Iraq War was next door.
8:33And I grew up in Khobar. Again, it's in
8:36the Eastern Province, which is
8:39sectarian. So, part of the reason why
8:41there is a lot of, you know, extremism
8:42in the Middle East is because of
8:43sectarianism between Shia and Sunnis.
8:45So, I grew up in the Eastern Province
8:47split between Shia and Sunnis. I come
8:49from Bahrain, which is also split
8:50between Shia and Sunnis. My mother is
8:52Lebanese. You know, where she come from,
8:54a very sectarian country, Lebanon, which
8:56was experiencing civil war at the time.
8:59And I lived in Khobar where, unlike all
9:01the rest of Saudi Arabia, which at the
9:02time used to have two TV stations,
9:04Channel 1 in English, Channel 1 Channel
9:061 in Arabic, Channel 2 in English,
9:08we had Bahrain TV, Kuwait TV, Qatar TV,
9:11Aramco TV, which was broadcasting a lot
9:13of American comedies at the time. So, so
9:17for us like in I mean, you know,
9:19if that society doesn't make you
9:21political, God knows what will.
9:24And also religious.
9:26So, because of my, you know,
9:30religious and political inquisitive
9:32nature, I turned to religion more. But
9:35also the fact that, you know, my
9:39mother passed away when I was 12.
9:41And so for me, part of dealing with
9:43grief was also to sink myself deeper
9:46into religion because this is where you
9:48think you find answers.
9:49You know, and and I remember at that
9:51time
9:52uh one of my teachers, and this is why
9:54the role of teachers is very important.
9:56So one of my teachers told me that if I
9:58want to
10:00reconcile
10:01you know, my grief with someone who
10:05actually knew how to write about, you
10:07know, Islam but from the prism of, you
10:10know, pain and grief,
10:12I should read Sayyid Qutb.
10:14Okay, Sayyid Qutb. Who is Sayyid Qutb?
10:18Um well,
10:20I mean, he is credited with being the
10:24spiritual godfather
10:26of almost every jihadist movement that
10:29ever existed. You know, so he is the
10:31spiritual godfather of bin Laden,
10:33Abdullah Azzam, Ayman al-Zawahiri,
10:36uh Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, uh al-Shabaab
10:38in Somalia, you know, uh the Azawad
10:41people in uh Mali, like in every
10:43jihadist movement, you know, and uh Abul
10:46A'la Maududi in Pakistan. He considered
10:48himself to be the uh spiritual twin of
10:52uh Sayyid Qutb.
10:53And even though Sayyid Qutb was a Sunni
10:56Muslim, who translated his books, three
10:59of his books, you know, into uh Farsi,
11:01into uh Persian?
11:04Ayatollah Ali Khamenei himself when he
11:06was in prison.
11:07So Sayyid Qutb was writing in prison in
11:091950s and '60s,
11:11and in the 1970s, Ayatollah Khamenei,
11:13when he was in in prison, uh
11:16you know, the former supreme leader, uh
11:18the slain one, he was translating his
11:20books because he provided
11:22in his books
11:24the perfect
11:26ideological
11:27and political framework
11:29of an Islamic state.
11:32And
11:34but why someone would recommend
11:37his writings to me?
11:38Because there is another book. It's
11:40roughly about 4 and 1/2 thousand pages.
11:42It's huge.
11:44It's his commentary on the Quran.
11:46And you know, in
11:49that book, he wrote that book throughout
11:519 years.
11:52All of them when he was in prison.
11:55And it wasn't, you know, a very,
11:59uh, pleasant you know, prison. You know,
12:00it was Nasser's prisons, you know, the
12:02socialist hellhole, you know, of prisons
12:05in the 1950s and 60s.
12:08Um
12:09>> So, you're telling me
12:10one person's ideology in one book
12:14actually led to rise of ISIS, Al-Qaeda,
12:19movements in South Sudan,
12:21and movement all the radicalization and
12:24extremist group and terrorism
12:26started with the ideology of this one
12:28book.
12:29>> One person.
12:30And he wrote several books, but among
12:33them is Milestones.
12:36>> And doesn't matter whether you're Shia,
12:37whether you're Sunni, which follow which
12:39thing do you follow,
12:41it's this book, this person.
12:43>> Milestones.
12:45He is the Karl Marx
12:47of radical Islam
12:49in the 20th and 21st century. He is the
12:53godfather of that.
12:55Everyone idolizes him.
12:57You know, Ayatollah Khamenei idolizes
12:59him.
13:01You know, the Dawa party in Iraq, even
13:03though they are Shia, idolizes him.
13:05There is a actually a,
13:08you know, a square and a street named
13:09after him in Tehran. And in addition to
13:12that, he was executed, by the way, in
13:151966
13:16in Egypt. And
13:19>> So, you were advised to read this book.
13:22>> Exactly. So, when I was reading him,
13:24like in because
13:25>> But why why were you
13:26advised to this book?
13:28>> Because he's of course my teacher wanted
13:30me to be introduced to his ideas. But
13:32because he used to comment on the Quran
13:35from the prism of pain and injustice.
13:38And so he would talk about loss, you
13:41know, because of course like in I mean
13:43he lost relatives and you know when he
13:45was in prison and all of that like in
13:46America and you can't tell.
13:48His writings are deep. I mean you know
13:51one of the books that he wrote is called
13:53Milestones.
13:54It's a small book.
13:56Um the the second um
13:59the fourth chapter is called
14:01the Jihad. You know, so he's talking
14:03about the establishment of a
14:05what he called it God's kingdom on
14:08Earth.
14:09That's what he called it. In Arabic
14:12you know, God's kingdom on Earth. And he
14:15preached that throughout his entire book
14:17about the vanguards, about the
14:20revolution and about like in the
14:22establishment of it and about like in I
14:23mean the societal constitution of it
14:26like in I mean and how do you achieve it
14:28and how do you fight against you know
14:29all of the ideologies that remember he
14:31was you know talking about it in the
14:331950s and 60s during the big battle
14:36between East and West, between
14:37capitalism and communism, between
14:39democracy and you know authoritarian
14:41socialism. I mean basically like in
14:43that's what he was talking about and he
14:44was saying no there is a third way.
14:46It is the pious way, the the enlightened
14:48way, the religious way, God's kingdom.
14:52And he is talking about it so
14:53passionately to the point where in you
14:55know Milestones is considered to be the
14:57constitution of Jihad and Islamic state.
15:00Hassan al-Turabi, the
15:02leader of the Islamist movement in Sudan
15:05that brought Omar al-Bashir and all you
15:07know and they ruled Sudan for 31 years.
15:10They were inspired Hassan al-Turabi was
15:12inspired by Sayyid Qutb.
15:14And you know the
15:16movement
15:17um the FIS
15:19which is the
15:20um Salvation Front in Algeria which came
15:23close to seizing power Um in 1991 when
15:26they won the elections
15:27in Algeria before the coup happened.
15:30They were inspired by
15:32Sayyid Qutb,
15:33Al-Jama'a al-Islamiyya in Pakistan,
15:35Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistan,
15:37Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistan.
15:40You know, for them Sayyid Qutb is the
15:42ultimate martyr, the the person who
15:45showed the way. Milestones is translated
15:48into Urdu. You know, and distributed in
15:50all the Mujahideen camps there. You
15:52know, whether it is
15:53you know,
15:54Mujahideen in Kashmir, Hizbul
15:55Mujahideen.
15:57You know, Lashkar-e-Taiba. You know, all
15:59of these you know, the people who
16:00committed the atrocities in Mumbai in
16:022008.
16:03Every
16:05atrocity
16:07every Jihadist atrocity, 9/11,
16:107/7, Nairobi in 1998, Bali in 2002. You
16:16know, they you know, the you know, the
16:182002 to 2006 bloody campaign of Al-Qaeda
16:21in Saudi Arabia. You know, the you know,
16:24the shoe bombings like you know,
16:25basically the liquid plots in London
16:27like you know, to to smuggle like you
16:28know, all of these airplanes all of
16:30these you know, liquids into airplanes.
16:32All of these
16:34trace back to one individual.
16:38>> And you became
16:39the leader of this person when you were
16:4116.
16:42>> Exactly. When I was 12.
16:45And I finished a lot of his books by the
16:47age of 14, 15. So, when
16:50the new moon came, Bosnia, I was ready.
16:54A friend of mine,
16:55he he is a childhood friend. He was 3
16:57years older than me. When I was young,
16:59unfortunately, like you know, because of
17:01you know, my bookish, nerdish nature,
17:05I was drawn to you know, to the
17:09friendship of older you know, boys like
17:11you know, basically and so
17:12>> Who were more mature?
17:13>> Exactly.
17:14And so, you know, my uh usually my
17:16friends were always like know, anywhere
17:18between three and six 7 years older than
17:20me. Like you know what I mean? And so
17:22um so my friend Khalid, he was three
17:25years older than me.
17:27And I heard from his mother that he was
17:29going to Bosnia.
17:31I hear first of all I was upset. Yeah,
17:33why didn't you tell me? But I went to
17:34his house
17:36to say goodbye.
17:37Because he was going in a week.
17:39But
17:4110 minutes into that walk towards his
17:43house, I decided I'm going to go and
17:44join him.
17:46So when I knocked in his door and I told
17:47him, you know, that I heard you're going
17:50and I want to go with you.
17:52He was surprised. He was saying
17:54Ayman, for God's sake, like you know,
17:55you're 16. I just turned 16. I mean, I
17:57remember it was early October of
17:59uh
18:001994.
18:02And I just turned 16.
18:04And he just said to me, like you know I
18:07mean, Ayman, this is war. This is jihad.
18:10Like you know I mean
18:11uh because he already went for
18:13uh three months, you know, two summers
18:15back into Afghanistan. So like you know
18:17I mean it's like he had at least some
18:18training and some experience. Like you
18:20know I mean what do I have? Nothing.
18:22>> So what was he going to Bosnia for?
18:24>> Because to join the uh you know Muslim
18:26forces there and to the Jihad Mujahideen
18:28Brigade. To join the Mujahideen Brigade
18:30and to fight against the Serbs.
18:32So it's a jihad.
18:34Um
18:34you know, classic. And so I said I want
18:37to join you. And then he said
18:40you know, he asked me a question because
18:42he said to me that it's not a picnic.
18:43People
18:44die. People lose limbs. You know, it's
18:48you know, people get hurt. It's uh you
18:50know, it's an immense physical struggle.
18:52Like you know I mean so he told me.
18:54And he asked me a question.
18:56That
18:57question and the answer I gave
19:00changed his mind
19:03and changed my life.
19:05Because
19:07he asked me
19:08do you think that jihad needs you there?
19:11So I said to him, "Oh, come on, Khalid.
19:12Like you know do you think really I'm
19:13arrogant to think like I mean,
19:15>> [laughter]
19:15>> anybody need me?
19:17You know, let alone jihad. The jihad
19:19doesn't need me."
19:21But, Khalid, for God's sake, I need it.
19:25I'm the one who need it.
19:27I'm the one who wants to go.
19:29I mean, because
19:31I don't know what madness possessed me,
19:32but because
19:34I was reading
19:35the writings
19:37of the deepest, most passionate writer
19:41and inner thinker
19:44who advocated
19:46that, you know, the only way we can live
19:49a righteous and pious life is if we
19:53restore Islam to sovereignty and that we
19:57have God and the Quran as our king and
20:00our constitution.
20:02The kingdom of God on Earth as Sayyid
20:05Qutb, you know, preached and promised.
20:07And that can only happen through jihad.
20:10And, you know, at the end of the day,
20:12all of these genocides and massacres and
20:14everything and all of that and all of
20:15this trouble,
20:16they wouldn't have happened if we have
20:18stuck to the kingdom of God on Earth as
20:23he preached. So, I want to go. I want to
20:25be part of history. I want to be I don't
20:28want to be a spectator, you know,
20:30watching the game. I want to be a
20:32player.
20:32I want to join the pitch, you know.
20:34>> [laughter]
20:34>> So,
20:36>> So, you were drawn. You were not
20:38seduced.
20:39>> Yeah.
20:40>> You said all the people and all these
20:42organization which are terror group
20:44organizations, they seduce young men.
20:47How did they seduce you?
20:49>> The books.
20:50>> But, you were
20:51>> Sayyid Qutb from his grave seduced me.
20:53From his grave.
20:55He told me that we cannot have
21:00the ultimate happiness of living under a
21:03pious
21:05utopian
21:06Islamic society
21:08without first shedding blood.
21:12And the blood
21:14will be the fuel will be the candle. He
21:17said like in our words
21:19are nothing but dead candles
21:21until we die for them and then they are
21:24lit.
21:26So
21:27I used to call myself the unlit candle.
21:30I'm just waiting for my death to be that
21:32lit candle. So I'm willing for my blood
21:35to be that concrete, that little brick
21:38that will add to the building of that
21:41kingdom of God on Earth. I was willing
21:43to do that when I was 16.
21:45>> Was that the moment when uh you became
21:49recruitable by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in
21:52al-Qaeda?
21:52>> Yes. I mean that's when
21:54of course I went to Bosnia.
21:57>> [laughter]
21:57>> And I spent 14 months there like I mean
22:00and trust me like I mean you know
22:03I'll tell you all the stories later like
22:05you know but but I remember when I left
22:06Bosnia 14 months later.
22:08You know by the way when I went to
22:09Bosnia
22:10I thought to myself okay
22:12I'm 16 and I hope to God I will never
22:15see my 17th birthday.
22:17I was really wishing for it. I was
22:19hoping for it.
22:20Because that's a mentality. You know you
22:22you you you ask me you want to
22:23understand the mentality. I'm talking to
22:25you here right now and I'm telling you
22:27the mentality really takes hold over
22:31you. That narrative, that you know that
22:34Islam is a ship you know that's what
22:37they tell you of course that Islam is a
22:39ship that needs a fuel and your the fuel
22:41is your blood.
22:43And if you do not give you know then who
22:46will?
22:48You know so so I remember
22:50you know when I arrived there
22:53and then when I left 14 months later I
22:55was looking at my at the mirror. By that
22:57time I was 17 years and 3 months.
23:00I was looking at the mirror in a hotel
23:03in Istanbul.
23:04And I felt that
23:06God, these were not 14 months. I feel
23:09like I aged 14 years
23:11because of everything that you see in
23:14the war.
23:15Everything you expect, mass graves, you
23:17know, torn limbs, people dead. I buried
23:21more people than I could count. And so,
23:23you you know, you lose friends. You
23:25know, I I and you and and you see the
23:26atrocities on the other side and you see
23:28the atrocities by your own side.
23:30You You start to see a lot of things
23:32that, you know,
23:34I know an 18- or 19-year-old wouldn't
23:35see that or a 16-year-old. And so,
23:37>> What was the most
23:39shocking thing that you saw?
23:41>> I think when I
23:43uh two things really like you know,
23:44basically like you know, the first one
23:46was the discovery of a mass grave and
23:48then you start to, you know, help to
23:49sort out like you know, basically the
23:51bones and the skulls and everything and
23:52all that.
23:53>> incident. What happened? Where were you?
23:55What did you see?
23:56>> Well, it was near a city called Maglaj.
24:00And the you know, the locals told us
24:03like you know, about the discovery like
24:04you know, they asked us like you know,
24:06you are more religious than we are than
24:08we are. I mean, the irony is that
24:10Bosnian Muslims were not really Muslims
24:11to be honest like you know, I mean, they
24:12were as communist as it could get like
24:14you know, they were totally, you know,
24:16utterly separated from Islam.
24:18And they were drinking, smoking, you
24:20know, you know, the mosques were there
24:21as, you know, really like you know, I
24:23mean, monuments of old Turkish age. They
24:27hardly prayed. They hardly like you
24:28know, I mean, had anything to do with
24:30Islam except their names, you know, and
24:31their heritage. But by DNA,
24:35they are Serbs who just converted to
24:37Islam in five centuries ago. That's it.
24:41But the Serbs, of course, like you know,
24:43I mean, in Bosnia massacred them like
24:45you know, purely because of the names
24:46and the identity and all of that and
24:47because of like you know, political
24:48reasons and uh
24:50you know, and
24:51so when I when we when they told us we
24:53have to come because you are the ones
24:54with religion and you know, you could
24:56help us bury these people like and I
24:58mean
24:59give them funerals.
25:00And so
25:02you know,
25:03in the end we collected 39 bodies.
25:07You know, we were able to establish 39
25:08skulls and
25:09and it's the size of some of the skulls
25:12that really
25:14you know
25:15absolutely like and I mean you know sent
25:18me to shock.
25:19And the bullet holes in these skulls.
25:22You immediately like and I mean see the
25:24barbarity of
25:25how people could descend into
25:27that level.
25:29Another incident you know, when we
25:31exchanged some
25:33Serb prisoners for Bosnian prisoners and
25:35then when across the bridge like and I
25:37basically when they were coming
25:39you know
25:40we saw some young girls 12, 13, 14 who
25:42were prisoners of war
25:45for 2 years.
25:47And of course like and I mean they come
25:49and they look like ghosts.
25:52This is when you start to see like
25:54skeletons
25:55and humans who look like ghosts.
25:58That was something that was imprinted on
26:00me.
26:01And then when I saw you know how these
26:04atrocities led you know, the
26:07people within the Mujahideen Brigade
26:09themselves
26:10to commit atrocity, to actually take you
26:13know, dozens of Serb you know, prisoners
26:16you know, these are military prisoners
26:18but then instead of exchanging them
26:20which is what we were supposed to do
26:23they were beheaded in the most gruesome
26:27way possible.
26:29You so you see like and I mean you know,
26:32a lot of people who came to Bosnia with
26:33me who were naive and you know,
26:37full of um
26:38these ideals of we are here to defend
26:40the defenseless and to do something
26:42noble
26:43they changed and so
26:45when in October
26:471995 a year after I arrived to Bosnia
26:50when Khalid Sheikh Mohammed the
26:52mastermind of 9/11 and uh the close
26:54associate of Osama bin Laden, when he
26:55comes to Bosnia,
26:57he was coming there to recruit.
27:00And by God, I tell you, Raj,
27:04he came there
27:06to the right place.
27:08Because
27:09the Bosnian conflict gave birth
27:11to many
27:13of Al-Qaeda's future leaders.
27:17Do you remember the
27:18man I told you like I mean that I went
27:20with, my friend Khalid?
27:22He would become the second leader of
27:24Al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia from 2003 until
27:262004.
27:29Um
27:30another one with us from the same town,
27:32my former teacher, Yusuf al-Ayeri. He
27:34would become the first leader of
27:36Al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia
27:37uh in uh 2002-2003.
27:41Um Ramzi bin al-Shibh, the uh
27:45lieutenant, the second uh you know, the
27:47right-hand man of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
27:48and the uh planning of 9/11,
27:51was with us in Bosnia.
27:53Two of the hijackers
27:55uh
27:55were uh you know, uh with us in Bosnia.
27:58And you know, many other leaders like I
28:00mean in Yemen, there were two uh
28:03you know, leaders of Al-Qaeda in Yemen
28:05who were two leaders who were also in
28:07Bosnia. So, you know, Bosnia gave birth
28:10to many of these ruthless, you know,
28:13uh people. By the way, the third and the
28:15fourth leaders also of Al-Qaeda in Saudi
28:17Arabia were also, you know, uh graduates
28:19of the Bosnian Jihad. So, the So, Khalid
28:21Sheikh Mohammed when he comes there,
28:23he finds
28:24the perfect recruits, recruits who were,
28:28you know,
28:29coming to the, you know, um
28:32stage where they have become
28:35a different versions of themselves. They
28:37now descended far more and more into
28:39radicalism because the war did its job.
28:43And so,
28:44Khalid Sheikh when he was sitting with
28:45us,
28:46um
28:47>> He was the mastermind for 9/11.
28:48>> Yes.
28:49He was sitting with us. He said he was
28:51it was October 1995. It was a wedding
28:54of one of the
28:56you know jihadist there and we were all
28:58sitting on the floor and we having this
29:00like you know I mean big you know
29:03Saudi style rice and meat and
29:06wedding feast kind of food and
29:09you know sitting next to me was Khalid
29:11my friend like in Khalid al-Hajj his
29:12name and uh also
29:16you know there was another person who
29:18would later become you know an important
29:21leader for al-Qaeda in Iraq.
29:24So, he was telling us about look guys
29:27the war in Bosnia is about to end
29:29because they are now having a ceasefire
29:31and there are peace talks. Most likely
29:35you know the war will end soon.
29:37How about
29:39you know you think the bigger picture?
29:42Why are you going from one war on the
29:44periphery to another? Why are you going
29:46from a
29:47Bosnia to Chechnya to Kashmir even he
29:50mentioned you know to
29:52in the Philippines to whatever.
29:54Why don't you focus on the fact that
29:56it's the center
29:57that is weak?
29:59So, he's now talking Sayyid Qutb
30:01language now
30:02about again you know God's kingdom on
30:05earth but he said in order to achieve
30:06that first we have to expel the
30:08Americans out of the Middle East.
30:11The only obstacle between us and
30:13bringing down these regimes
30:15the House of Saud
30:17the Gulf states Egypt
30:20Iraq Syria all of these places the only
30:23obstacle
30:25the Americans.
30:26Remove them and the rest will be easy.
30:30But how do you propose? So, of course
30:31Osama bin Laden was in Sudan at that
30:33time but he said
30:34the camps in Afghanistan are reopening
30:37and if any of you want to join them
30:39there for the purpose of training and
30:41getting yourself ready
30:43for the next phase of Jihad.
30:45So, I asked him, "This next phase, where
30:47is it going to be?"
30:48So, where is that theater? Because we
30:50used to call them the Jihad theaters.
30:52You know, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya,
30:54these places we used to call them the
30:55Jihad theaters. So, what is a theater?
30:58So, he said the Jihad theater will be
31:00from the North Pole to the South Pole.
31:03And everything in between.
31:05It will be an open war against the
31:07Americans.
31:10None of us took him seriously. We
31:11thought like in the basic Jihad, this is
31:14not possible.
31:15Um but nonetheless, the man was
31:17ambitious.
31:18Um and I remember
31:21you know, I
31:23sat with him alone later. I said
31:26um if I wanted to go and join it, not
31:28that I'm going to go and join it, but if
31:30I'm going to go and join the camps in
31:31Afghanistan, how do I do it? He said, "I
31:33hear." So, he took you know, small piece
31:36of paper from his notebook and he took a
31:39pen and he wrote a number for me. He
31:42said, "This is a man in Peshawar, in
31:44Pakistan. His name is Abu Zubaydah.
31:46When you uh are about to go to Pakistan
31:50just call him and say you know, Abu
31:52Maryam, that's a alias that he used, so
31:55he knows who I'm talking about. Abu
31:57Maryam
31:58uh told me that I should contact you
32:01before I come."
32:02And that's it. He will take care of you.
32:04So, I ended up actually calling Abu
32:06Zubaydah
32:07and
32:08uh I booked a flight from Baku in
32:10Azerbaijan to um
32:12uh
32:13yeah, to Pakistan, to Karachi first, and
32:14from Karachi we went to Peshawar and he
32:16was there waiting for me at the airport
32:19in Peshawar. He took me to um you know,
32:21the uh guest house there, a safe house,
32:23and the rest is history. Like in I went
32:25into Afghanistan and I remember I
32:27arrived and then 2 and 1/2 months later
32:30Bin Laden arrived.
32:31>> How did he How did they take you to
32:33Pak-Afghanistan?
32:35>> Ah, very simple. You know, you go you
32:37know, in Peshawar, I know you go with a
32:40guide, with an Afghan guide. Now my
32:41Afghan guide was a medical doctor,
32:44Afghan medical doctor. His name was
32:45Muhammad Hanif.
32:47And he used to belong to Hizb-e-Islami
32:48Hekmatyar.
32:50Uh, Hekmatyar people. And so,
32:53uh, he will just take me to a normal,
32:54you know, the bus station in,
32:57uh, Khyber Bazaar in, uh, Peshawar. You
32:59know, just ordinary like, you know, you
33:01wear, you know, the Afghan, you know,
33:04uh, but to like, you know, basically and
33:05the Afghan, you know, baklava they call
33:07it like, you know, I mean, you know, the
33:08hat and you you know, you you know, you
33:10remove your glasses because, you know,
33:11Afghans don't wear glasses mostly, you
33:13know, otherwise they would look
33:14foreigner. And we just go all the way to
33:16Torkham Gate, which is the Khyber Pass.
33:19So, it was just amazing like, you know,
33:21I remember I was passing by, it was
33:25uh, May of 1996.
33:27So, I was passing through the mountains,
33:30you know,
33:31uh, the Khyber Pass and all the way to
33:32Torkham Gate. And then the bus, the
33:35micro bus like, you know, it stopped
33:36there. And then that's it, we have to go
33:37on foot now, you know, to the other
33:39side. We cross the border. It's a gate
33:42that looks like as if it was built in
33:43the 1800s. You know, it's like really
33:46ancient. And you cross. And then the
33:49other side hardly any road. It's like,
33:51where did the road go? You know, where
33:53there is no road. There is something
33:55that resemble road, but actually it
33:57resembles like, you know, the surface of
33:59the moon in terms of how many craters
34:01you know, there were, you know, on this
34:03road. And of course like, you know, the
34:05smell of the spices, the very primitive
34:08markets like, you know, I mean, it's
34:10like if you can call it even that.
34:12I mean, you feel as if you stepped from
34:151996 to 1896.
34:18You're back to 1896. You just stepped
34:21100 years back in time.
34:23And you know, there are no phones,
34:27mobile or landline.
34:29There are no TVs. There is only radio.
34:32That's it. Only radio there. Not a
34:34single landline.
34:36>> [laughter]
34:37>> It's destroyed. All destroyed. There is
34:38no mobile towers or anything. There's
34:40mobile phone, nothing. No TV even.
34:43So, you are back to the early, you know,
34:481900s.
34:50And you take the bus to Jalalabad.
34:52And there in Jalalabad, you know, just
34:55to the west of it there is a
34:57an area near the dam of Jalalabad called
35:00the Darunta. It's near the
35:02University of Jalalabad. And there is
35:05a several camps there.
35:07You know, so there used to be a Bor Oda
35:09camp, Abu Muadh al-Khorasani camp, and
35:11also there was a Jamaat-e-Islami
35:12Pakistan camp, you know, which is, you
35:14know,
35:15dedicated for Kashmir.
35:17You know, so the training was happening
35:19there and that's why we used to see a
35:20lot of, you know, Pakistani ISI cars,
35:23you know, used to come and go all the
35:24time there.
35:26And
35:27then of course there is, you know, the
35:28camp that belonged to a the most
35:30celebrated master bomb-making expert in
35:34Al-Qaeda at the time, Abu Khabab
35:36al-Masri.
35:37And that's like when I started my
35:39training, like in I mean it was an
35:41eye-opening thing. This was Afghanistan
35:42after all. And there I met,
35:47you know, one of my former Bosnian, you
35:49know,
35:50comrade,
35:51Farooq al-Kuwaiti.
35:53So, who actually would later become the
35:55leader of Al-Qaeda in South
35:57Southeast Asia, in Indonesia. And he was
35:59actually captured by American special
36:02forces in 2002 in Indonesia.
36:04So,
36:05you know, so I met him there and
36:06actually, like in I mean it was, you
36:08know, a very pleasant surprise. And
36:10And we, I remember, like in I mean, you
36:13know, 2 and 1/2 months later after
36:14intense training on, you know, on
36:16mortars, on
36:18you know, missile launchers, on, you
36:21know, urban and mountain warfare and
36:23stuff like that. I remember Um, we heard
36:26the news.
36:27You know, I remember it was July 23rd,
36:31um, 1996 that Osama bin Laden arrived
36:33from Sudan.
36:34His plane just landed in Jalalabad
36:36airport.
36:38It's like, what?
36:39We were all shocked, like, you know, I
36:40mean, what happened? I know,
36:43well, we heard that the Sudanese, uh,
36:45government asked him to leave,
36:47um,
36:47and, you know,
36:49uh, he just showed up in Afghanistan.
36:52Then,
36:53word came to us in the camp in early
36:56August
36:58that Osama bin Laden is living, you
37:00know, in Yunus Khalis camp, which is,
37:03you know, I I a compound of houses
37:06not far away from the Jalalabad or the
37:09Nangarhar,
37:10uh, you know, um,
37:12uh, Paktia,
37:13uh, border.
37:15And he knew that there are people from
37:18the GCC, from the Gulf, you know, from
37:20Saudi, from Kuwait, from Bahrain, like,
37:22you know, who were in the camp, and he
37:23said they would love to see us.
37:25And, of course, like, you know, I mean,
37:27we were curious. So, you know, the the
37:29camp at the time, like, it basically
37:30had,
37:31uh, only one car available at the time.
37:33It was just a small pickup, like, you
37:34know, just to bring, you know, two,
37:36three, four, five people, like, you
37:37know, I mean, so
37:39so 14 of us crammed into it and into the
37:41back of it, like, you know, I mean, it's
37:42like as if we were lambs, like, you
37:44know, basically livestock, like, you
37:46know, to be transported.
37:47>> [laughter]
37:47>> So, 45 minutes, you know, later on the
37:504th of August, uh, 1996, we were there.
37:53Um, so we entered the day I remember,
37:55like, you know, oh my god, we're going
37:56to meet Osama bin Laden, like, you know,
37:57the legend, you know, of the Afghan
37:59jihad, and everyone knows about him, the
38:01enemy of America, the one who's, you
38:03know,
38:04uh, going to lead, like, you know,
38:04basically a big jihad movement. And, of
38:06course,
38:07what a disappointment.
38:09No, no, seriously, it was a
38:10disappointment, and I'll tell you why.
38:12So, we arrived in Yunus Khalis camp,
38:14and it's like it was a collection of
38:16houses within a it's like a compound,
38:19very, you know, very primitive, you
38:22know, houses, mud, you know, and straw.
38:25Uh all brown color and then you enter
38:28and it's all boxes and suitcases
38:30scattered here and there.
38:32And you know, we saw the people who were
38:34around him including his deputy Abu Hafs
38:37al-Masri, other deputies like Mustafa
38:39Abu al-Yazid, Ibrahim Abu al-Khair and
38:41all others and
38:42um Abu Muhammad who was the head of the
38:44training and we were looking at them.
38:45They were all disheveled and they all,
38:48you know, wearing, you know, basically
38:50like, you know, what looks like clothes
38:51they haven't like you know I mean
38:52changed in 5 days or something like
38:54that. They they look like
38:56not well looked after.
38:58And like refugees. I mean,
39:01>> [laughter]
39:01>> and we then we forgot actually they are
39:02refugees. So,
39:05so we sat down with them
39:07and then Osama bin Laden came.
39:10And if, you know, forget whatever mental
39:12image that you have of him because, you
39:14know, usually like you know, you have
39:15the
39:16you have the mental image like you know,
39:18of someone who's wearing a very nice
39:19white turban and his robes were very
39:21well ironed and no crease even like you
39:23know, I mean to be seen. No, he was
39:26wearing, I remember like you know,
39:27basically a a blue thobe with the
39:29dishdasha I'm wearing right now. He was
39:30wearing a blue one. Every crease could
39:32be seen. It's completely creased like
39:34you know, I mean and definitely didn't
39:35see an iron, you know, for decades. And
39:39he was wearing the red version of what
39:41I'm wearing right now, but again wasn't
39:44ironed and it was just wrapped around
39:45his head like this.
39:47And again without the agal or without
39:49the he wasn't doing it like a a turban.
39:53He looked like a refugee. He looked like
39:54a hermit. You know, he looked like if he
39:56was, if I saw him in Saudi Arabia, I
39:58would say he's a beggar.
40:01And
40:02of course like you know, when he sat
40:03down
40:04and he looked at us and of course each
40:06one of us introduced himself like you
40:08know, who, you know, of course with the
40:09aliases like you know, I mean you say I
40:11am, for example, my alias at the time
40:13was Abu Abbas al-Bahraini like you know,
40:14I mean so I mean this is my alias.
40:16So, and he would say, "Oh, welcome.
40:18Welcome." Whatever. And then he said,
40:20and he was looking at our eyes, looking
40:22at him and looking at his friends and,
40:24you know, inner circle,
40:25thinking, "Oh my god, like and I'm quite
40:27a disappointment."
40:28But, he can read our minds.
40:31He can read the faces.
40:34He said, "I know
40:36that our appearance
40:39look as if like and then basically we
40:40are no threat to anyone. We can't pose a
40:42threat, you know, even to, you know, our
40:45Afghan cook here."
40:47>> [laughter]
40:47>> So,
40:48um
40:50but
40:51may I remind you,
40:52you know, of a story.
40:54And this is where
40:56cleverly he introduced the concept of
40:59eschatology.
41:01And this is important
41:03um
41:04for everyone to understand it.
41:07You know, jihad,
41:09one of the fuels of jihad in terms of
41:12recruitment, in terms of resilience, in
41:14terms of strategy, in terms of ideology,
41:17in terms of continuity, is eschatology,
41:20prophecies. It's the idea of things that
41:23are written long time ago foretelling of
41:26a jihad of an endless war or the end of
41:29time war.
41:30>> [snorts]
41:31>> So, he introduced the concept of
41:33prophecies here.
41:35He said, "Remember, brothers,
41:38when the Prophet Muhammad was escaping
41:41Mecca,
41:42you know, because the pagans of Mecca
41:44were about to kill him. That's it. They
41:46had enough of him. 13 years of
41:48disobedience, you know, uh to their rule
41:51uh and disruption and converting their,
41:54you know, relatives and young, you know,
41:56loved ones, they decided they want to
41:58kill him.
42:00So, he decided, you know, to migrate to
42:02Medina.
42:03And so, that perilous journey, so he was
42:05talking about the perilous journey and
42:07how the uh
42:09the trading mercantile pagans
42:12uh pagan leaders of Mecca, they offered
42:14a huge bounty on his head.
42:16And so he said, "Remember that story?"
42:18We said, "Yes, we remember."
42:20He said, "Remember that when one night
42:23his name was Suraqa
42:24that night when he caught up with him
42:27you know, finally, you know,
42:29the
42:29Prophet Muhammad was alone with one
42:31companion only. You know, there were two
42:32people, two camels, and that's it. And
42:34he was, you know, on a horse with a
42:36spear you know, and with a sword and a
42:39shield, of course. Like I can I mean,
42:40you know, there was no no no no contest.
42:44And he was, you know, running towards
42:46them, like you know, you know, riding
42:47towards them on a horse.
42:48And then when he had the spear, like you
42:50know, basically because he was, I you
42:51know, you know, the bounty is for him
42:53dead or alive. Better dead, like you
42:55know, I mean, so he can't escape. So
42:57but then
42:59miraculously, his the
43:01you know, the front legs of the horse
43:03sank into the sand, you know, basically,
43:05and he couldn't, you know, throw the
43:06spear, and he actually tumbled down.
43:10So, he went back onto his horse
43:13started again to chase them, but then
43:15the second time it happened, he realized
43:17that
43:18this is supernatural. This is not
43:20normal.
43:21So, this is when
43:23the Prophet and his companion turned and
43:25actually went to him. So, he thought,
43:27like you know, I mean, okay
43:29this man is supernatural. I don't want,
43:31like you know, basically him, like you
43:32know, to I don't want anything to do
43:33with him.
43:34So, he was saying, "Give me
43:36you know, a man. Give me, you know, your
43:39safety, your security. Give me your
43:40pledge of safety."
43:42You know, he was asking the Prophet,
43:44"And I will leave you alone. I will not
43:45tell anyone.
43:46Don't do any of your magic on me."
43:49So, he said, "I'm not going to do any
43:50magic on you, like you know, I mean,
43:51just promise, you know, not to tell
43:53anyone about us."
43:55Um and
43:57um don't, you know, and just tell people
43:59maybe we are seen somewhere else.
44:03So, the
44:05I mean, the knight said "Okay, I accept,
44:07but what is in it for me?
44:09I mean, do you have any any money on you
44:11to give me or anything?"
44:13He said, "I have none to give you, but
44:14you know what? I will I will make you a
44:16promise."
44:17So, he ordered his companion, who would
44:19later become the first caliph of Islam,
44:21Abu Bakr,
44:23he ordered him to write a pledge from
44:25the prophet to this knight.
44:28And this pledge is like this,
44:30"That Muhammad, son of Abdullah,
44:33uh from Mecca,
44:35is promising Suraqa bin Malik
44:38the crown
44:40and the bracelets
44:41of the Persian emperor."
44:46And
44:47Suraqa was saying, "You are a fugitive.
44:50You are nothing but a Bedouin fugitive.
44:54You know, half of the knights on this
44:56side of Arabia are chasing you for a big
44:58bounty.
45:00Most likely you will be dead before you
45:01reach Medina. And you are promising me,
45:03you're threatening the biggest empire on
45:05earth, like in the Persia. Seriously?
45:08Are you out of your mind?"
45:11Out of my mind or not, like in I mean,
45:12he just
45:13uh
45:14sealed that letter for him and gave it
45:16to him.
45:18So, Suraqa bin Malik was telling us,
45:19"Now, you remember the rest of the
45:21story. 16 years after that,
45:24he was paraded, this knight was paraded
45:27on a camel in the streets of Medina
45:28wearing the crown and the bracelets of
45:30the Persian emperor
45:32because the Persian capital, Ctesiphon,
45:35was sacked. And the crown and the
45:38bracelets were brought to Medina, you
45:41know, as uh spoils of war. 16 years
45:44only."
45:45So, he was telling us, "We might look
45:47like refugees.
45:49We are hunted by everyone, by every
45:51intelligence agency, by everyone.
45:53But I promise you, you know,
45:56you join us, and everyone else like you
45:58will join us, and we will make history."
46:02So,
46:03why? Because the weight of the prophecy,
46:05just like the prop- the the prophet
46:07promised Suraqa
46:09the crown and the bracelets,
46:11the prophet also promised us
46:13that we will establish again the
46:16caliphate. We will take back Jerusalem.
46:19We will expel, you know, the Crusader
46:23forces out of, you know, the Muslim
46:25world and our, you know, religion will
46:28reign supreme.
46:31Okay?
46:32He introduced the prophecies now.
46:34And
46:35I remember next to me
46:37knee touching knee
46:40was a young man
46:41with very thick glasses from Mecca.
46:45His name was Abu Abdullah Makki.
46:48And
46:49he was in tears.
46:52He was in tears.
46:54And he was like fascinated by it.
46:57Completely like you know, I mean, I can
46:59tell.
47:00He swallowed the whole thing.
47:02Now, why it's important? Because 2 years
47:05to the day, remember it was 4th of
47:07August 1996.
47:094th of August 1998,
47:13there was a van that rammed into the
47:16American Embassy in Nairobi in Kenya,
47:19killed 224 people including 12 American
47:23diplomats
47:24and wounded 5,000 people. 5,000 people
47:26were wounded because of so many
47:28thousands of nails that were embedded
47:30with the 1-ton that was in that van.
47:33Who was driving it?
47:35The guy sitting next to me knee touching
47:37knee.
47:382 years only between him
47:41shedding tears believing in the
47:43prophecies
47:44and that these prophecies apply to our
47:46time
47:47because he was hearing it from Osama bin
47:49Laden
47:50talking about him lacking, you know, him
47:52how he is resembling the prophet, you
47:54know, being a fugitive.
47:56And how he is promising just like the
47:58prophet promised before his promise will
48:00also be fulfilled
48:02and
48:03that guy
48:04giving his blood
48:06his life
48:07for the cause of that man
48:09who was telling him stories
48:12and prophecies.
48:14It's all about stories. It's all about
48:15prophecies.
48:17>> So you were also there.
48:18>> Yes.
48:19>> You when you met Osama bin Laden and you
48:23were recruited did you look like this?
48:25>> Oh yeah. Yeah.
48:26Hardly any
48:27beard at the time.
48:29>> [laughter]
48:29>> This is you?
48:31>> I was 17 when I met him, yeah.
48:34>> And
48:35did you believe in things that he was
48:38telling you?
48:41Because the man right next to you
48:42clearly believed. He swallowed
48:43everything and he did ended up becoming
48:47a suicide bomber.
48:49Did you actually believe in it?
48:50>> Well, myself and do you remember I told
48:52you about a man who was with me in
48:54Bosnia, Kuwaiti al-Faruq, who would
48:56later become a leader of al-Qaeda in
48:58Southeast Asia. Both of us didn't
48:59believe it.
49:01Not in the sense didn't believe it
49:03theologically speaking. Religiously we
49:05believed it.
49:06But
49:07strategically. I mean, we were thinking
49:09from a strategic point of view. I mean
49:12what are we going to fight America with?
49:14>> Yeah.
49:14>> [laughter]
49:15>> I mean,
49:16it's like what are we going to fight
49:17America with? We don't have anything.
49:20And it's like it's it's [laughter] it's
49:23like
49:24imagine a girl, you know, pretty young
49:27girl like in a basically and a young,
49:29you know, broke guy coming to her in a
49:33basically, you know, you know, with a
49:35with with a worthless old silver ring
49:37and saying, "Please, will you marry me?"
49:38I mean, come on. First, get a car, get a
49:41job and then come and ask me to join you
49:43in marriage. [laughter] So it's the same
49:45thing here. It's like
49:47you know, the optics were not exactly
49:49>> [laughter]
49:50>> I wanted more to be convinced and I also
49:52don't forget I am
49:54an annoyingly inquisitive person. You
49:57know, I'm not an easy person to
49:59convince. I need a lot of persuasion.
50:02And so, that persuasion will happen a
50:05year later. In August 1997, a year after
50:08I met Bin Laden, I returned back to
50:10Afghanistan from Southeast Asia.
50:12And when I went there, I remember like
50:15in Al-Faruq was telling me to, you know,
50:18to carry a message to Osama Bin Laden
50:19something like that. Like I said, "Okay,
50:21I will give it to one of the, you know,
50:23um
50:24uh people associated with him like in I
50:26mean and so
50:28there in Jalalabad in the safe house, I
50:31met the head of Osama Bin Laden's
50:33bodyguard. So, his entire protection
50:37unit.
50:38Um and a close advisor of his. His name
50:41was Abu Hamza al-Ghamdi, a Saudi guy.
50:43And a veteran of the Afghan and Tajik
50:45Jihad. Yes, there was a Jihad against
50:47the, you know, the Tajikistan in the
50:50government, uh you know, north of
50:51Afghanistan like in I mean 1993 and
50:531994. So, he was a veteran of that and
50:55he was very famous. And
50:58this is when he said to me,
51:00"Look, I I recognize and you something,
51:04um you know, you have you have something
51:07that I don't see
51:08in many other people I meet like in and
51:10I would love, you know, if you could
51:12join us."
51:14"Join you? You mean Al-Qaeda?" Yeah.
51:16"Well, I was offered a year ago and
51:18somehow I don't I I I I don't I don't
51:20want to impose, but like in I was
51:21offered a year ago, why should I accept
51:23now?"
51:24And this is when he said to me,
51:27"But we are not the same people a year
51:29ago.
51:30Now we have, you know, no less than six
51:33camps,
51:35um
51:36several hundreds of recruits here,
51:39and thousands of associates across the
51:41world now."
51:42And he started giving me like in I mean
51:44what are they building, what are they
51:46doing, like in how are they going to go
51:47about it, like and I mean and he was
51:49very detailed and again he brought the
51:51prophecies again. He again he brought
51:53the ideology again. Again he talked
51:54about the importance of expelling the
51:56Americans. This exactly what Khalid
51:58Sheikh Mohammed said before.
52:00And he said to me
52:02that
52:03look
52:04in the end
52:06I want you to think.
52:09The
52:11there are prophecies which later I
52:13discovered in life
52:15is all fabrication.
52:16It's all ancient fabrication for
52:18political reasons and I will talk about
52:19it later, but
52:20he said to me there are these prophecies
52:22of the black banners of Horasan.
52:25So, Horasan is
52:27you know, an ancient, you know, Persian
52:30province which covered, you know, the
52:31city of Mashhad in Iran, so which is
52:33east of Iran plus part of Afghanistan.
52:37Uh so, this is called Horasan. So, he
52:39said
52:40the Prophet Muhammad talked about the
52:41black banners of Horasan.
52:43You know, and our our banners are black.
52:46You know, and it's all about these
52:48people who will rise from there, revive,
52:51you know, the jihad and march all the
52:53way to Jerusalem.
52:54You know, and so and then he said, "If
52:57it's not us, then who?"
52:59You see, the Soviets invaded Afghanistan
53:01because they were, you know, led by God.
53:04They were God's instrument, you know, to
53:06prepare, you know, Afghanistan to be the
53:09launch pad, you know, for this
53:12you know, vanguard
53:15of jihad to rescue, you know, the Muslim
53:19lands from the Crusaders and from the
53:20Zionists.
53:22So, I
53:23was like
53:25"You are making sense here, like and I
53:27mean okay, keep talking." And he kept
53:29talking and talking about it in a way
53:30that
53:31really, like and I mean, you know, the
53:34multitude of the narrations, he said,
53:35the multitude of the narratives, the
53:37multitude of the texts, like and he was
53:38quoting.
53:39And in the end he
53:42played on the
53:44commitments to God, to the faith, and to
53:49the conscience. And he said,
53:51"Tell me,
53:52what if lucky you don't join us?"
53:55So, he was playing on my love for being
53:57part of history rather than being a
53:59spectator. You remember I told you about
54:01this.
54:02He said, "What if you don't join us?
54:04But then,
54:06not only lucky you will have a regret,
54:08you know, in this life when you see the
54:10people who joined it actually achieve,
54:13you know, what God intended for for them
54:15to achieve, but also
54:18what you will see is that in the day of
54:19judgment when you are before God,
54:22and he will ask you, you you know, I
54:24gave you the chance
54:25to be part of my vanguard, the vanguard
54:28for my faith, and you didn't join it.
54:31You know, what is your excuse there?"
54:34So, I said, "You know what?
54:39Just give me the
54:41few hours to pray the guidance prayer.
54:44I'll ask God for guidance, and I'll tell
54:46you how I feel about it."
54:47You know, hours later I told him, "I
54:49want to join."
54:50And so,
54:52he said to me, "Perfect, lucky you. I
54:53mean, you know, in the first week of
54:54September,
54:55see me there in
54:57Kandahar. Come to Kandahar. Come to
54:59Tarnak. Uh
55:00you know, where they have the big
55:01compound there for themselves near the
55:03airport. Um I'll meet you there. I will
55:05take you to see
55:07you know, they call him Sheikh Abu
55:08Abdullah.
55:09Uh Osama bin Laden was known as Sheikh
55:11Abu Abdullah. So, we go and see Sheikh
55:13Abu Abdullah, and you know, you know,
55:15you give him your allegiance yourself."
55:18So,
55:19uh 3 weeks later I was there.
55:21And uh I remember lucky you. I mean,
55:23when I was there, Hamza was so happy to
55:25see me. And then he uh came to me after
55:29you know, the
55:30uh evening prayers and said to me, "Come
55:32with me." Went to them.
55:34To bin Laden's study.
55:36So, it was, you know, very simple room
55:38like in I mean uh I would say like in a
55:40basically maybe like in a 5 m by you
55:43know, 3 m. And uh
55:45bookshelf everything and you know,
55:47something to sit in the floor like in a
55:49like these little mattresses you sit on
55:50the floor on.
55:52And
55:54the first thing that struck me how tall
55:55he is.
55:56You know, and how kind his face looked.
55:59I mean remember
56:01the path to hell is paved with good
56:04intentions.
56:05And among these are the good intention
56:08people who think they are doing the
56:09right when in fact they are doing wrong.
56:12They're doing evil.
56:13There's a verse in the Quran they say
56:15like in the worst of evil doers are
56:17those who think they are doing the right
56:18thing.
56:20So
56:22I mean
56:23so when I when you meet him
56:25immediately you are struck by the
56:27welcome, the kindness, the warmth, you
56:29know, that you feel from him straight
56:30away. Remember
56:32you know, they can't keep you
56:34if they really present a awful side. You
56:39know, you are volunteer.
56:41You know, so they don't want to lose you
56:42like in I mean they want you to be part
56:43of them.
56:45And so there is that
56:47special brotherhood you know, that
56:48happened there. These people like in I
56:50mean they are psychopathic but then as I
56:51mentioned in the book among them there
56:54is a great deal of brotherly care and
56:57tenderness. You know, it's like they
56:59look after each other so much. You know,
57:01and they really have that dedication
57:03towards each other. You know, it's like
57:06solid you know, with each other but like
57:07in I mean that is compensated by
57:09complete hatred against the outsider.
57:12So that's how this thing is balanced and
57:14so
57:15so when I sat down he of course asked me
57:17about where I'm from, where I come from
57:19and and you know, all the experiences I
57:21had in the past in the Jihad in Bosnia
57:23and elsewhere and I told him about like
57:25in my trip with the Farooq to Southeast
57:27Asia you know, and my 8 months there.
57:30And then
57:32you know, he
57:33was joking. He looked at um
57:36Hamza and he said
57:38"Well, I don't think like in a basically
57:40he's a commando's material. I mean, look
57:42at him like in I mean, he's like, you
57:44know, looking like a bookish whatever.
57:45But this is, you know, he's he's mild of
57:48course like and he wasn't, you know,
57:50belittling me, but
57:52he was trying to prepare me for what he
57:54wants me to do.
57:56So, Hamza said, "Look, do you remember I
57:58told you there are certain qualities in
57:59that I see in you or that I don't see in
58:01many other people.
58:03You have two you know, important
58:04qualities. First of all,
58:06you are willing to learn.
58:07Like really willing to learn. You have
58:09the capacity for learning and you're
58:10willing to learn. There are people who
58:12are willing to learn, but they have low
58:13IQ. What's the point? So, you need to be
58:16willing to learn and have IQ. Have I you
58:18know, have a high IQ.
58:20And the second is patience.
58:22You are a patient man.
58:23You do have patience.
58:25And that's important because we're going
58:26to send you to a an important
58:29you know,
58:30uh camp. Secretive. You know, it's
58:33hidden somewhere there in the mountains.
58:35And you'll be learning bomb making.
58:40So,
58:42I was thinking,
58:43"Well,
58:44um this is the best Eid gift I ever got.
58:47>> [laughter]
58:48>> I mean, thank you. That's exactly what I
58:50want more than anything else. It's the
58:52elite status. It's like it's the best
58:53thing and plus like in a basically come
58:55on, you know, it's like if you tell
58:57kids, 'Kids, I'm going to teach you
58:59chemistry today. Mix this and this and
59:00then boom.' You know, what
59:02what is not to like about it?"
59:04And
59:06you know, within few days I was shipped
59:09to Abu Khabab camp in Nangarhar just on
59:12the border between Nangarhar and Laghman
59:13province.
59:14>> But then,
59:16how did you swear in? Like is there a
59:18swearing in ceremony?
59:19>> It's not a ceremony.
59:21>> Were you sitting down? Were you on your
59:23knees? Were you standing? What do you
59:24say? Does he touch you? What what what
59:26happens? How do you swear in?
59:28>> You you you are sitting in front of him.
59:29You extend your hand for a handshake
59:31like this. He's extending his hand for a
59:32handshake and then during the handshake
59:34you keep your handshake on and you
59:36recite the oath of allegiance.
59:38>> And what do you say?
59:39>> You say like in a basically you know
59:43I give you my allegiance to listen to
59:45you, obey you and never disobey you for
59:47months at the Makara. You know in the
59:49good times and the bad times. I will
59:50fight
59:51I
59:52you know fight against those who you
59:54fight. And
59:56I make peace with those who you make
59:58peace. You know and I will
1:00:01and I obey you for as long as as long as
1:00:04you obey Allah. And Allah
1:00:06and God is our witness. That's it. It's
1:00:08over. You know it's like it's a
1:00:09handshake. These sentences is done. I'm
1:00:12now you know a member of Al-Qaeda.
1:00:14>> And you're
1:00:15Were you standing? You're bending down?
1:00:17>> Sitting in front of him and shaking
1:00:18handshake.
1:00:19>> So you both are sitting?
1:00:20>> Yeah, we both are sitting. It is a
1:00:22handshake.
1:00:23It's a transaction. It's a contract.
1:00:25>> Is it something like this?
1:00:27When you sit in front of him?
1:00:28>> No, that's like in a basically like in a
1:00:30more of a you know a press conference
1:00:32and everything and all of that. No, no,
1:00:33no, it was on the floor. He was sitting
1:00:35on the floor. I was sitting on the floor
1:00:37in front of him like on this on this on
1:00:40this you know carpet. He was sitting on
1:00:42the carpet in a thin mattress. You know
1:00:44basically like in a you know I mean you
1:00:45just hand you know it's a handshake.
1:00:48>> Where is this from?
1:00:50>> This is from
1:00:5119 This is from February 1998.
1:00:55This is the declaration of the jihad
1:00:57against the crusader Zionist alliance.
1:01:00>> This is what when they want to make it
1:01:02public?
1:01:02>> Yes, this map actually like in a I mean
1:01:05is in the
1:01:06you know prayer hall in
1:01:08Tarnak Farm. This is Tarnak Farm.
1:01:10>> What is Tarnak Farm?
1:01:11>> As a major headquarter for Al-Qaeda in
1:01:13Kandahar.
1:01:15>> Okay.
1:01:17Yeah, so you were there. You pledged
1:01:19allegiance and then you were sent to
1:01:21this camp where you learned bomb making.
1:01:24Give me a visual of this camp.
1:01:27>> This camp
1:01:29>> [laughter]
1:01:29>> Let me put it this way.
1:01:31If a health and safety inspector from uh
1:01:36the UK would show up there and see how
1:01:40chemicals are stored or how we handle
1:01:42these chemicals, they will have a heart
1:01:44attack in a on the spot, you know, so
1:01:48they they will never believe like in a
1:01:49basically how chemicals were stored and
1:01:50handled.
1:01:52Look, it's a three rooms. That's it.
1:01:53Three big rooms. Uh separate. Uh so
1:01:56separate buildings. Each building is a
1:01:58room.
1:01:59So there is the storage room. Uh there
1:02:01is the uh living quarters and there is
1:02:04the training room.
1:02:05And uh you know, basically there are
1:02:08only four learners at each
1:02:11time. So for each 8 months period of
1:02:14learning, there are only four.
1:02:16Why? I remember when I when we arrived,
1:02:18there were four people.
1:02:20So there was a
1:02:22a Moroccan guy who would later in a
1:02:25become involved in campaigns of
1:02:28terrorism against Jewish synagogues in
1:02:30Morocco.
1:02:32Um there was a uh a Pakistani guy who
1:02:36grew up in Saudi Arabia. His name is
1:02:37Hassan Gul and who would later be the
1:02:39messenger between Zawahiri and Zarqawi
1:02:41in a between Afghanistan and Iraq
1:02:44um during the American war there. And
1:02:46then uh the third one is Moez Fezzani.
1:02:50Uh I knew him as Abu Waheed al-Tunisi.
1:02:52And he is so psychopathic. Uh the most
1:02:55psychopathic jihadi I ever met after
1:02:57Zarqawi, of course. And he would go on
1:03:01in 2015-16
1:03:03to commit the massacres in Tunisia, uh
1:03:05the Bardo Museum massacre and the uh
1:03:08Sousse beach massacre in which dozens
1:03:10and dozens of people were killed uh on
1:03:12behalf of ISIS, of course. And now he is
1:03:14in prison
1:03:15uh in Tunisia. So
1:03:17and then I'm the fourth. So, I'm number
1:03:19four. And in front of us is Abu Khabab,
1:03:23the most celebrated
1:03:25legendary jihadi bomb maker ever
1:03:28in the history of jihad. And so, he's
1:03:30Egyptian, former captain of the
1:03:33Egyptian army explosive squad. So, he
1:03:36knows his business.
1:03:38And the first thing he told us, "I know
1:03:41you are wondering why only four of you
1:03:43are here for the next 8 months. Only
1:03:45four, no more, no less.
1:03:47It's because, you know, if if there are
1:03:49more of you, then I will lose attention
1:03:51and, you know, and you know, and I need
1:03:53to concentrate in each one of you
1:03:56throughout this entire journey. You see,
1:03:58in the art of bomb making, that's what
1:04:01we call art." Really, he celebrated
1:04:03that.
1:04:04Just to tell you that, you know,
1:04:05basically about how mad he is, his bed,
1:04:08because in the University of Jalalabad,
1:04:09he saw one of the rooms was stacked by
1:04:12more than 800 grenades, you know, on top
1:04:15of each other, that looked like, you
1:04:17know, a bed. So, he put a mattress on
1:04:18it, and then that's it. That became his
1:04:19bed. So, figuratively speaking, for, you
1:04:23know, years, his bed was actually a
1:04:26mattress on top of 800 grenades stacked
1:04:28on top of each other.
1:04:29So, that's how mad he was. So,
1:04:32you know, and it's true. It's not
1:04:33cartoonish thing. So, he told us,
1:04:36"In the art of bomb making,
1:04:38the first mistake is your last mistake.
1:04:42You are not going to live to make
1:04:43another mistake. And so, I don't want
1:04:45more than four.
1:04:46And because I also make sure made sure
1:04:49that when I talked to your commanders
1:04:51and leaders and, you know, the people
1:04:53who supervise you, I ask for people who
1:04:55are bright, intelligent, and most
1:04:57importantly, patient. Please be patient.
1:05:00Do not think just just because you got
1:05:02it right the first time that you will
1:05:03get it right every time. You have to
1:05:05treat your
1:05:06bomb number 100 as if it was the first
1:05:09bomb you ever make. I want you to be
1:05:12nervous all the time because if you are
1:05:14not, you will die.
1:05:15And you might kill us with you, you
1:05:17know, in the process.
1:05:19So, with these words, with these ominous
1:05:22warnings,
1:05:23I started an 8-months journey
1:05:25into
1:05:26thinking that this is the coolest way of
1:05:30teaching chemistry, man. Like,
1:05:31seriously. That's [laughter] the best
1:05:33way of teaching chemistry.
1:05:34>> How How would your training day look
1:05:36like?
1:05:37>> Well,
1:05:37>> what time do you wake up? What time do
1:05:39you sleep? How was the training camp?
1:05:41>> god, it was very different from all the
1:05:42other training camps. You know, all the
1:05:44other training camps, there was so much
1:05:46military discipline. Like, you know, I
1:05:47mean, you
1:05:48I mean, you are you are lucky if you get
1:05:505 hours of sleep a day.
1:05:52Um you know, you are lucky. Our food was
1:05:55mostly lentils. You know, lentils for
1:05:58breakfast, lentils for lunch, lentils
1:06:00for dinner. And, you know, lentils
1:06:02lentils lentils. And I remember like
1:06:03when I left Afghanistan for for the rest
1:06:05of my life in 2001,
1:06:07I swear never to eat lentils. And I
1:06:09never ate lentils like in a for
1:06:11goodness. Like, you know, I only started
1:06:12eating lentils in 2021. So, actually 20
1:06:16years it took me to go back to lentils.
1:06:18You know, I was absolutely traumatized
1:06:20by it. By
1:06:21>> So, how was how was training for other
1:06:23people? Military training? What time do
1:06:24you get up? What do you do? What do you
1:06:26do, you know?
1:06:26>> up 1 hour before dawn prayer. You pray
1:06:28your um you know,
1:06:30uh
1:06:31you know, the uh late
1:06:33>> pray five times?
1:06:34>> Yeah, of course. Like, you know, so you
1:06:36do the prayers. And then after the
1:06:37prayers, you have the Quran recitation.
1:06:38After that, you have the uh morning
1:06:40parade. You know, so the you know, the
1:06:425-km you know, uh mandatory run uh
1:06:46each day. And then after that, you have
1:06:48the uh you know, the physical training,
1:06:50then the military training, whatever
1:06:52weapons you are uh training on, whether
1:06:54it is, you know, uh
1:06:56light weapons, uh mid-size weapons,
1:06:59um you know, RPGs, you know, um
1:07:02uh anti-tank uh missiles. And uh you
1:07:05know, whether it's tanks themselves or
1:07:07the, you know, uh
1:07:08armored personnel carriers or the
1:07:10missile launchers or, you know, or on
1:07:12topography, you know,
1:07:15there are many training, for example,
1:07:17like I remember there was a training
1:07:18which I was excluded from,
1:07:20which was very weird why they excluded
1:07:22me. They said it's pointless, you know,
1:07:25for me. Why? Just to give you an idea.
1:07:28>> [laughter]
1:07:28>> It was a hostage-taking
1:07:31training course. How to take hostages,
1:07:33how to secure them, how to tie them up,
1:07:35how to blindfold them, how to treat
1:07:37them, how to tell them, you know, how to
1:07:39lie to them, how to make them make them
1:07:40like, you know,
1:07:41how you coerce them. All of these
1:07:44things.
1:07:45And so, you know, and I was told, why am
1:07:47I excluded, like
1:07:49you know, I would love to get that
1:07:50training. And they said, no.
1:07:52You know,
1:07:54our dear brother, like I mean, you are a
1:07:56very kind-hearted man. I mean, goodness,
1:07:58like you know, basically, you are the
1:07:59one responsible for feeding the cats in
1:08:01the in the camp here. Every camp I used
1:08:03to have stray cats coming. So, I used to
1:08:05look after them. So, I was known for
1:08:07being a kind-hearted person. So, they
1:08:10said, like you know, you are going to
1:08:11free the hostages and give them money
1:08:12for the taxi to go back home. So, no,
1:08:14you are never [laughter] going to
1:08:16participate in any hostage-taking.
1:08:18That's not in your nature.
1:08:20You know, so you so you see, even even
1:08:22within these organizations, they can
1:08:24tell you know, what part you're good
1:08:26for, what part you're not good for. You
1:08:28know, and I remember that, you know, in
1:08:30later years, like you know, when I was
1:08:31part of al-Qaeda, one of some of the
1:08:33missions they used to give me is to you
1:08:35know, is to
1:08:36um
1:08:36take messages and equipments and
1:08:40you know, money and passports and
1:08:41documents and other things across
1:08:43borders. And they And I used to tell
1:08:45them, like you know, why me? And they
1:08:46said, because your face, and you saw my
1:08:48face, like you know, basically, in that
1:08:49picture, does it inspire suspicion or
1:08:53does it inspire confidence?
1:08:55Inspire confidence. People look at me
1:08:57and think, oh my god, like you know,
1:08:58what a young student or what a young
1:08:59what a young, you know, nice-looking
1:09:00man. You know, it's like, you know, he's
1:09:03he's harmless. You know, everyone think
1:09:05I'm harmless because I remember
1:09:07uh Hamza Hamdi was telling me uh the
1:09:10head of Bin Laden's protection, the one
1:09:11who recruited me, he told me that
1:09:13how many times you notice that people
1:09:15pass 10 people ahead of you before they
1:09:18come to you and they ask you for
1:09:19directions. They ask you, you know, to
1:09:21take a a picture of them and they give
1:09:23you the camera. You know, and they
1:09:25because at the time there were no phone
1:09:26mobile whatever like it was all cameras.
1:09:28They give you the camera and they ask
1:09:29you to take a picture. Because your face
1:09:32says that you are a person to trust. So,
1:09:36you know, you can pass through many
1:09:38airports and no one ask you questions.
1:09:40You know, the the immigration, the
1:09:42customs, whatever like you know, I mean
1:09:43because you don't inspire you know, the
1:09:46need for a second or secondary or you
1:09:49know, uh for secondary screening.
1:09:52So, you know, so so you know, so these
1:09:54are the courses they do and yeah, it's
1:09:56like it's a very rigorous program but in
1:09:59Abu Khabab camp
1:10:01You can sleep all you time.
1:10:03You can sleep all you like.
1:10:04>> So, in your camp, in the bomb making
1:10:06camp?
1:10:06>> bomb making camp, you can sleep all you
1:10:07like.
1:10:08We eat pasta.
1:10:10You know, come on. They used to bring us
1:10:12lots of meat, you know, lots of chicken,
1:10:15you know, a lots of like in a nice you
1:10:17know, bread. They used to bring us
1:10:18cakes.
1:10:20And I was like surprised like you know,
1:10:21I mean why are we treated so nicely?
1:10:24Well, first of all, this camp has a very
1:10:25good budget coming from al-Qaeda.
1:10:27And there are only five people there.
1:10:30>> [laughter]
1:10:31>> You know, the training master and four
1:10:33of us like you know, and in addition
1:10:36guys, you're dealing with chemicals
1:10:37every day.
1:10:38We need to boost your immune system. We
1:10:40need to make sure that like you know,
1:10:41you're strong, you're fit and we need
1:10:43you to sleep all you want because we
1:10:46don't want you to be lacking
1:10:48concentration.
1:10:50I mean, you can you know, you want to
1:10:52you want to sleep, siesta in the
1:10:53afternoon, do it. You know, after
1:10:56you know, morning prayers, you want to
1:10:58sleep again, sleep again. No one ask you
1:10:59like to do anything. There are no
1:11:01programs except you know, from 9:00
1:11:03until 3:00 or 4:00. This is like you
1:11:05know, the time
1:11:06we do the training.
1:11:08And that was like for me, it's like a
1:11:10holiday.
1:11:11>> [laughter]
1:11:12>> But
1:11:13you know, in that camp I've started to
1:11:16question things. This is when the
1:11:18beginning of doubt you know, started to
1:11:20come because I was 19. Um I was the
1:11:22youngest like you know, I was the baby
1:11:24of the camp. Um and uh all those around
1:11:28me like you know, basically were it's
1:11:30like the youngest that went after me
1:11:31like you know, was what was 28.
1:11:34Uh Hassan Gul and I remember Abu Nasim
1:11:36was like in his 30s. Abdul Latif
1:11:39Moroccan was 40s and Abu Khabab was in
1:11:41his 50s. So it's like I'm the only
1:11:43teenager there.
1:11:45Um
1:11:46but
1:11:47ironically, I was the one leading the
1:11:49prayers. You know, because of my you
1:11:51know, memorization of the Quran when I
1:11:52was young, because of my religious
1:11:54education when I was young.
1:11:56But this is when you know, doubt started
1:11:59to come because I was sent there with
1:12:01the idea that we are going to build IEDs
1:12:03and we are going to build bombs to
1:12:05attack American forces with it in the
1:12:06Middle East.
1:12:08Um and then slowly they started teaching
1:12:10us poisons and then chemical weapons.
1:12:15You know, you know, potassium cyanide
1:12:18you know, and
1:12:19cyanogen chloride which was used you
1:12:21know, for the Holocaust against you
1:12:23know, the Jews in Auschwitz in
1:12:26uh Poland. So I was like
1:12:28um how are we going to use this and
1:12:31against whom exactly? And what is the
1:12:32delivery mechanism? And so when they
1:12:34were talking about it, it's like oh
1:12:35yeah, it would be against like you know,
1:12:36night clubs, theaters, cinemas.
1:12:39You know, sporting you know, venues like
1:12:41um
1:12:43but isn't these civilians? And I
1:12:45remember they all looked at me. It's
1:12:47like what do you mean civilians?
1:12:49Yeah, civilians. There are no civilians
1:12:51in West?
1:12:53Oh.
1:12:54What do you mean no civilians? Like I
1:12:55mean there's military and there's
1:12:57civilians.
1:12:59Uh,
1:12:59okay. Yeah, I I
1:13:01We know you are religiously educated and
1:13:02everything like you know, but didn't
1:13:03anyone teach you that there are no
1:13:04civilians in the West?
1:13:06I mean so I remember that what Abu Nazim
1:13:08al-Tunisi was telling me.
1:13:09Okay, explain it to me.
1:13:11So he started explaining to me
1:13:13that since these civilians pay the taxes
1:13:16for the governments that actually are at
1:13:19war with us, then they are as good as
1:13:22soldiers.
1:13:23They pay taxes.
1:13:25Yeah, but they don't pay taxes by
1:13:27choice. If they have any choice, they
1:13:28wouldn't pay a single tax at all.
1:13:31Um
1:13:32they vote for their governments.
1:13:34So they are partners in the crimes
1:13:35against us.
1:13:39And us by I mean like you know basically
1:13:40every single Muslim around the world
1:13:41like you know I mean which is like, you
1:13:43know, and of course that's another myth,
1:13:45you know, the pan-Muslim solidarity is a
1:13:46myth and I will come to it later.
1:13:49So
1:13:50Um this is when of course like you know
1:13:53I mean you don't express these doubts
1:13:55out loud because you know, it's not
1:13:58exactly like you know basically the open
1:14:00debate society there.
1:14:02>> [laughter]
1:14:03>> It's like, yeah, uh you're you're you're
1:14:06you're free to believe what you want. Um
1:14:08so
1:14:10and then of course
1:14:11um
1:14:13I remember like you know a day when we
1:14:15tested
1:14:16a huge device, a 1.3 ton device.
1:14:21So it was 1,300 kg.
1:14:24Massive.
1:14:25You know,
1:14:26houses even though Jalalabad was 26 km
1:14:31away, houses shook there.
1:14:34So it was massive.
1:14:36And
1:14:37uh people thought it was an earthquake.
1:14:40And I remember
1:14:41when
1:14:43uh we tested that
1:14:44uh Abu Khabab said
1:14:46this is important because
1:14:48what we are experimenting on here will
1:14:50determine the success and failure of
1:14:52operations to come."
1:14:56So,
1:14:57that was, I remember, May
1:14:59uh
1:15:011998. So, I already spent about maybe 7
1:15:048 months there. It was coming to the end
1:15:05of my
1:15:06uh time there.
1:15:07>> They explained me this camp. This is a
1:15:09map, by the way.
1:15:11>> Yeah.
1:15:12>> Where was the camp where you were in the
1:15:15bomb-making camp?
1:15:18>> Jalalabad, here. This X here.
1:15:20>> This one?
1:15:21>> Yeah.
1:15:22>> Oh.
1:15:22>> This X is Jalalabad, just to the west of
1:15:25Jalalabad.
1:15:26>> And how
1:15:27how far was the nearest
1:15:30houses?
1:15:32>> Jalalabad itself. And of course, the
1:15:33University of Jalalabad is only uh 4 5
1:15:36km away from us.
1:15:38>> Okay.
1:15:38>> And the dam, of course, and the lake.
1:15:41>> And where were you brought in from?
1:15:43>> Um
1:15:44>> From this airport?
1:15:45>> No, no. I mean, you know, of course,
1:15:47like in the Peshawar is our airport, but
1:15:48like basically moving through
1:15:50Afghanistan is always through bus.
1:15:53You know, it's always through land
1:15:56transport.
1:15:58>> And this area was not
1:16:00This was This looked like 1896, you were
1:16:02saying. This looked like
1:16:03>> All of Afghanistan looked like 1896 at
1:16:05that time.
1:16:07>> Okay. And then, fast forward to
1:16:11>> August 4th.
1:16:12>> 4th August.
1:16:13>> Yeah, 1998. I was in the Farooq camp in
1:16:16Khost.
1:16:17Um and
1:16:19celebratory gunfire exploded
1:16:22all over the place. You know, I hear the
1:16:25shouts of takbir, Allahu Akbar, and the
1:16:28shouts of celebration, and uh you know,
1:16:31and people shooting, you know, uh into
1:16:33the air.
1:16:35"What's happening?" Uh
1:16:36and we were told that the largest CIA
1:16:39station
1:16:41in East Africa has been leveled to the
1:16:43ground.
1:16:46CIA station, perfect. Well, that that's
1:16:48exactly what we are training for. It's
1:16:50to attack America and its forces and a
1:16:53CIA, you know,
1:16:55outpost is a legitimate target. Perfect.
1:16:59Uh of course,
1:17:01um I had a radio at the time.
1:17:03Many of us had their own private radios,
1:17:06you know, so to listen to the news and
1:17:08um
1:17:09for me two particular radio stations
1:17:12were important. It was the BBC Arabic
1:17:14Global Service
1:17:16and you know, the Kuwait
1:17:19you know, news
1:17:20you know, for some reason we were able
1:17:22to you know, receive it there.
1:17:23>> Okay.
1:17:24>> And
1:17:26uh
1:17:27the news came. It was the US Embassy.
1:17:30So, it wasn't a CIA station per se, but
1:17:33it's okay, you know,
1:17:35America always hide their you know,
1:17:38intelligence behind the embassies.
1:17:40But then the news started to come more
1:17:42and more the next day and the day after.
1:17:45224 dead.
1:17:4812 of them Americans.
1:17:50212 were all
1:17:53people from
1:17:55multiple African countries. Like I mean,
1:17:56first of all, you know, there were a lot
1:17:58of Kenyans themselves.
1:18:00But there were a lot of Somalis. You
1:18:01see, Somalis who want to travel to the
1:18:03US, they have to go to the US Embassy in
1:18:05Nairobi because there is no US Embassy
1:18:07in Somalia. And so, there were at least
1:18:0855 Somalis who were killed, all of them
1:18:10Muslims.
1:18:12And
1:18:14then I heard 5,000 people were wounded.
1:18:17And then this is when it came to me that
1:18:20they were telling us, "Guys, for every
1:18:22you know,
1:18:231 ton of explosives
1:18:26you add 100 kg of small nails. You take
1:18:30the kg of small nails and you spread it,
1:18:32you know, within the
1:18:34uh uh, material.
1:18:36So, to basically create five you know,
1:18:395,000, 6,000 bullets and you know,
1:18:41basically all across
1:18:43shrapnel effect.
1:18:475,100
1:18:49150 of them blinded for life
1:18:53because of the all these small nails.
1:18:56So, 150 blinded for life.
1:19:00The casualty figures were horrifying.
1:19:06And I remember this is when I started to
1:19:08have serious doubts.
1:19:11You know,
1:19:12people always tell me, "Ayman, come on.
1:19:14You signed up for al-Qaeda. You should
1:19:16have known what you are signing up for."
1:19:17I said, "No, I didn't sign up for this."
1:19:20I mean, okay, if I was in al-Qaeda for
1:19:23years and then I flip after that, yes,
1:19:25okay, you have the right to tell me like
1:19:27and I mean that I didn't know what I you
1:19:30know, I I I I you know, I I I knew what
1:19:32I was doing and then, you know, I had a
1:19:34change of heart, but
1:19:35this isn't even a change of heart, to be
1:19:37honest. I felt like that's not what I
1:19:39signed up for.
1:19:41Um, I thought we are going to fight
1:19:43shoulder to shoulder you know, the
1:19:45Americans and American you know,
1:19:47influence in the region,
1:19:48drive away their forces.
1:19:51Why are we killing Africans in Africa?
1:19:53You know, in huge mass casualty attack.
1:19:57Um, how will that get the Americans to
1:20:00leave?
1:20:01If anything, this could actually like
1:20:02you know, achieve the opposite.
1:20:05And I remember that,
1:20:07you know, for me at the time like and I
1:20:08mean the
1:20:11being inquisitive, but also being
1:20:12God-fearing,
1:20:14I started asking myself, "Okay,
1:20:16for everyone else here,
1:20:19they are not as educated as me like and
1:20:20I in religion and so
1:20:23and also at the same time none of them
1:20:24is being prepared
1:20:26to be sent abroad to build these massive
1:20:29devices
1:20:31and then I will be responsible
1:20:33for each and everyone. So, as a
1:20:35visualizing person
1:20:37I can visualize those people
1:20:39in a lining up before God in the day of
1:20:41judgment and asking me
1:20:43or asking him to ask me
1:20:45why did you kill us?
1:20:46You know, why? What is the purpose? You
1:20:48know, why are we dead?
1:20:50Why our loved ones suffered
1:20:53long after us because they lost their
1:20:54income, they lost the father, the
1:20:56mother, the brother, you know, the
1:20:58person who was looking after them. Why?
1:21:01So, you start to think about
1:21:02consequences. You start to think I'm the
1:21:03one who's going to do it.
1:21:05You know, 99% of those around me, they
1:21:08can celebrate all they want, they can
1:21:09like I mean praise it all they want,
1:21:10they can you know, justify it all they
1:21:12want, but I can't. I'm having really
1:21:14difficulty here because I'm the one who
1:21:16going to pull the trigger, I'm the one
1:21:17who going to do it.
1:21:19And so
1:21:20I remember I went
1:21:22to the Mufti of Al-Qaeda at that time,
1:21:23Abu Abdullah al-Muhajir.
1:21:25So, I went to him
1:21:27and I asked him, I said, "Look, I'm
1:21:29coming here asking question just to be
1:21:32you know, just to have my heart at
1:21:34peace. Like I mean I'm not questioning,
1:21:35I'm not doubting.
1:21:37I just want my heart to be at peace
1:21:39here.
1:21:40What we did
1:21:42in
1:21:43Nairobi
1:21:45I mean, given how many civilians were
1:21:47killed
1:21:49many many of them are Muslims also. Like
1:21:50I mean, so did we do the right thing
1:21:52here? Because I told him Abu Abdullah,
1:21:55please understand that I'm going to be
1:21:57one of those sent to do it. So, you have
1:21:59to pay attention to me. You have to put
1:22:01my heart at ease. Tell me
1:22:03you know, that religious justification,
1:22:05that theological justification, that
1:22:07what we are doing is right.
1:22:09He said, "Yeah, yeah, don't worry,
1:22:11Ayman. Like I mean, basically everything
1:22:12is fine."
1:22:14He said to me, "Do you remember
1:22:17there is a fatwa
1:22:20called the tatarus fatwa, the human
1:22:23shield fatwa?"
1:22:25No, I don't. He said, "Look,
1:22:28you will find it in the comprehensive
1:22:30works of Ibn Taymiyyah." That's what he
1:22:31told me.
1:22:33But,
1:22:34listen, the gist of the fatwa is that if
1:22:37the enemy is hiding among civilians and
1:22:40putting their, you know, most prized
1:22:43installations within civilian
1:22:45population, then we are allowed in that
1:22:48situation to attack. And if civilians
1:22:53die, then it's up to God to make it up
1:22:56to them. So, God will make it up to
1:22:58them. Don't worry. You know, basically,
1:22:59God will sort them out. You know, it's
1:23:01not our responsibility. Our
1:23:02responsibility is to fight and to kill
1:23:04the enemy.
1:23:06Collateral damage, that's God to take
1:23:08care. You know, that's up to God to take
1:23:10care of them. You know, he will make it
1:23:12up to them. You know, he will give them,
1:23:15you know, a you know, a you know, an
1:23:16amazing afterlife. You know, but, you
1:23:19know, so I was like,
1:23:21ah, okay. So,
1:23:23again, where do I find this fatwa? And
1:23:25so, he said, "In the comprehensive works
1:23:26of Ibn Taymiyyah."
1:23:28And then before I left,
1:23:30he said to me, "And listen,
1:23:33just remember, they're just a bunch of
1:23:35Africans. Who cares?"
1:23:39He's Egyptian, you know. And it's like I
1:23:42was thinking,
1:23:43my God, the racism.
1:23:45>> [laughter]
1:23:45>> I mean, coming out of his mouth. And
1:23:48he's the mufti of al-Qaeda.
1:23:50And
1:23:51he said, "They're just a bunch of
1:23:52Africans."
1:23:53In my heart, I was telling him, you
1:23:55know, I was in my heart I was saying,
1:23:57"Should I tell the Somalis here what you
1:23:59just said?"
1:24:00>> [laughter]
1:24:01>> There are some Somali jihadists here.
1:24:02Should I tell them, like, you know,
1:24:03you're a bunch of Africans who are
1:24:05worthless?
1:24:06I kind of like, you know, I mean,
1:24:07decided not to push it up push it with
1:24:09him. And
1:24:102 weeks later,
1:24:12I was in the um
1:24:15in the grand headquarters of al-Qaeda in
1:24:17Kabul. Now, this is a big kind of
1:24:20mansion in Wazir Akbar Khan neighborhood
1:24:22in Kabul.
1:24:24And I love going there because there was
1:24:25a library, there were more than 2,000
1:24:26books there. So, it was like a kind of
1:24:28heaven for me.
1:24:29So, I love spending time there. And
1:24:32there I decided, "Okay,
1:24:35I have to find the comprehensive works
1:24:37of Ibn Taymiyyah." Ibn Taymiyyah is a
1:24:39scholar who lived 700 years ago.
1:24:42In the 1300s.
1:24:43So,
1:24:44he is like again an essential
1:24:46theological, you know,
1:24:48um
1:24:49uh
1:24:50for fundamentalist Sunni Islam, he is
1:24:52the absolute theological authority
1:24:55for fundamentalist Sunni Islam.
1:24:58So, I went there. So, the problem is the
1:25:00comprehensive works of Ibn Taymiyyah is
1:25:0237 volumes. You know, I don't know,
1:25:05that's like 14,000 pages to go through
1:25:07like in I mean
1:25:08But then thank God, the last two volumes
1:25:10are actually the indices, you know, so
1:25:12So, I went to t a r o s. So, I was
1:25:15looking for the letter t in Arabic, t.
1:25:17Okay, that's it. T a r o s. Okay, so you
1:25:19know, okay.
1:25:20May you know, volume 28. Went, picked up
1:25:23volume 28, opened it.
1:25:25And this is when,
1:25:26you know, the moment of realization, the
1:25:29moment that you
1:25:32that the perception
1:25:34the ever everything that you believed
1:25:36in, everything you thought that your
1:25:38comrades are come shattering down.
1:25:41Because
1:25:43that fatwa which allows the killing of
1:25:46civilians, you know, during a time of
1:25:49war
1:25:50is like this. So, Ibn Taymiyyah did not
1:25:52issue that fatwa. He was actually
1:25:54talking about uh fatwas that preceded
1:25:57him by 100 years.
1:25:59So, he was talking about the early 1200s
1:26:01during the Mongol invasions of Muslim
1:26:04Central Asia.
1:26:05You know, like you know, uh Uzbekistan,
1:26:07Kazakhstan, you know, like Otrar, um
1:26:10Nishapur, Bukhara, Tashkent, Samarkand,
1:26:13Balkh, you know, Mazar-i-Sharif, all of
1:26:15these places when the Mongols were
1:26:17invading.
1:26:18Uh Genghis Khan. So, he was talking
1:26:21about the Muslims of these cities, and
1:26:25these are cities of immense
1:26:26civilization, you know, immense culture
1:26:29and riches. So, they were sending
1:26:30emissaries,
1:26:32envoys,
1:26:33uh to the uh rest of the Muslim world,
1:26:35especially in Persia and places like,
1:26:36you know, of knowledge like Mardin and
1:26:39the modern-day Turkey. That's why they
1:26:41call it the Mardin fatwa. Um
1:26:44and uh Ardabil and other places, they
1:26:46are asking
1:26:48this specific question.
1:26:51The Mongols, every time they sack a
1:26:53city,
1:26:54they take a couple of thousand civilians
1:26:57from that city,
1:26:59men, women, older children, you know,
1:27:02and make them
1:27:03push the Mongol siege towers towards the
1:27:07walls of the next city they are
1:27:10attacking.
1:27:12So, they don't want to lose their own
1:27:14soldiers.
1:27:16Um these people are expendable, so they
1:27:19send the civilians, the the prisoners,
1:27:22to push the siege towers.
1:27:24Uh
1:27:24you know,
1:27:26cost-effective, I know, but extremely
1:27:27brutal.
1:27:29So,
1:27:30the Muslim defenders finding it very
1:27:33difficult,
1:27:34you know, to kill their own people,
1:27:36especially when there are women and
1:27:37children there,
1:27:38you know, who are themselves crying in
1:27:41agony and pain, and they are chained,
1:27:42and
1:27:43so,
1:27:45are we allowed? So, the fatwas came
1:27:47back, they are saying,
1:27:48this is one of the uh situations where
1:27:52the necessity
1:27:54overweighs the prohibition.
1:27:57It's a life-and-death situation.
1:27:59They are dead anyway.
1:28:01Uh because the Mongols will kill them
1:28:02after that anyway. They are,
1:28:04you know, they going to be a waste of
1:28:06food and money and, you know, resource,
1:28:08so they are dead, whether by your hands
1:28:10or the Mongol hands. Defend yourselves.
1:28:12You know, try to last as best as as best
1:28:15as you could.
1:28:17Now,
1:28:18look at the fatwa,
1:28:21the religious edict there. Look at the
1:28:22fatwa that is there.
1:28:25And look at what the mufti of al-Qaeda
1:28:27told me.
1:28:29And can you see any
1:28:31application of this to this like I mean
1:28:34was the American Embassy in Nairobi
1:28:36pushing siege towers towards Mecca or
1:28:38Medina that we needed there and then
1:28:40right now to attack it, to kill these
1:28:42diplomats and to destroy the embassy?
1:28:46And I felt that if this is the first
1:28:48major attack they do, because it was
1:28:50their first attack,
1:28:52what are they going to do next?
1:28:54And I'm not going to like it to be part
1:28:55of this story. Thank you so much. I'm
1:28:57out of here.
1:28:58So, I decided there and then I want to
1:29:00be out.
1:29:02And the fact that a week later I
1:29:04survived the cruise missile attack by
1:29:06the US in retaliation for the embassy
1:29:08attacks, um
1:29:11wasn't a sign. I took it as a sign. And
1:29:13there were so many details there I talk
1:29:14about like in how I survived it. Um but
1:29:18I thought I want to be out of here. Now,
1:29:20luckily enough, there was a pretext.
1:29:23The pretext is that I was supposed to go
1:29:26back to Qatar uh because just
1:29:30in December 1997 I had a
1:29:35an awful illness. I had typhoid and
1:29:37malaria attacking me at the same time.
1:29:40I lost half of my weight. I almost died.
1:29:42So, I was sent to Qatar for treatment.
1:29:44Came back. I was told I have to come
1:29:46back a year later to check if there was
1:29:48a permanent damage to the liver.
1:29:50So, I uh submitted a request that I have
1:29:54to go back to Qatar for the, you know,
1:29:57no problem. Uh you can go. Um you know,
1:30:01>> Is it that easy to get out of?
1:30:03>> When you are already someone who is
1:30:06designated safe traveler. You remember
1:30:08they are giving me [clears throat]
1:30:10>> tasks and everything. So, I'm designated
1:30:12safe traveler. In other words, like you
1:30:13know, I never betrayed them. I can come
1:30:15and go, come and go, and no one will ask
1:30:16questions and everything. So,
1:30:18So,
1:30:18>> They trusted you.
1:30:19>> They trusted the fact that I will go
1:30:21back. I'll come back.
1:30:23So,
1:30:24I was, you know, I remember in Peshawar
1:30:26airport, I took Qatar Airways, you know,
1:30:29aircraft, and I remember in the
1:30:31airplane, as soon as I sat down,
1:30:34I recited
1:30:36there and then, you know, as you know,
1:30:37as you know, as the as the aircraft was
1:30:40like, you know, I mean, you know,
1:30:41flying, taking off, like you know, I
1:30:43renounced
1:30:45my oath of allegiance.
1:30:47I just renounced it, you know, I just
1:30:49said, like you know, God, you know, I'm
1:30:51I'm no longer part of it, like you know,
1:30:52I don't want to be part of it.
1:30:54You know, and then I said,
1:30:55wherever you take me, I go.
1:30:58I don't know what's going to happen.
1:30:59I'm just leaving, but I have no idea
1:31:01what's lying ahead of me, like you know,
1:31:02I mean, at the time, all I wanted just
1:31:04is to be as far away from Afghanistan as
1:31:06possible. Then, when I get to the other
1:31:08destination, I will think about it.
1:31:10And
1:31:11a long story happened, like you know,
1:31:12after I reached Qatar, so many events
1:31:15happened from the moment I arrived, but
1:31:17within 9 days,
1:31:20I was recruited by MI6.
1:31:23>> [laughter]
1:31:23>> By the British Intelligence Agency.
1:31:25>> But how?
1:31:27>> When I arrived in Qatar,
1:31:29the Qataris were already aware I was
1:31:31arriving.
1:31:32And they were tipped off by the French
1:31:35Intelligence. Now,
1:31:37remember I was I just turned 20.
1:31:40And you know, when you are 20,
1:31:43you
1:31:44you don't appreciate,
1:31:47you know, the fact that
1:31:49you could be
1:31:50somehow
1:31:52uh
1:31:53an important person,
1:31:55you know, that matter, you know, as far
1:31:57as intelligence agencies of the world
1:31:59are concerned.
1:32:00>> Mhm.
1:32:00>> I did not know that I was known.
1:32:03>> [laughter]
1:32:03>> So, you were being tracked by
1:32:04intelligence agencies already?
1:32:05>> Yeah, because I was Abu Khabab trainee.
1:32:08And after
1:32:10the uh incident just uh 4 months earlier
1:32:13in Nairobi and Tanzania, everyone who
1:32:15was with Abu Khabab will be known.
1:32:18And also I was an associate of Abu
1:32:19Zubaydah.
1:32:21You know, the uh
1:32:22you know, the master facilitator for
1:32:24al-Qaeda. And the one who uh Khalid
1:32:26Sheikh Mohammed gave me his number and
1:32:28the one uh who is the head of the safe
1:32:30houses network for al-Qaeda. So,
1:32:32so because of my the these two
1:32:34associations, Abu Khabab, Abu Zubaydah,
1:32:36I'm a traveler, you know, and so
1:32:38>> And you were young, so you're you may be
1:32:41brainwashed again.
1:32:42>> Yes. And so, uh I arrived to Qatar and
1:32:46the intelligence agencies there, like
1:32:47you know, I mean, were just waiting.
1:32:49I didn't know that.
1:32:50Um
1:32:51and then I remember
1:32:53when, you know, I was taken into custody
1:32:57in Qatar. And it was all done so in in a
1:32:59very civilized way. There was no, you
1:33:01know, guns and everything and all of
1:33:02that. It was like literally literally
1:33:04like, you know, I mean, you know,
1:33:06uh you know, the my friend who was with
1:33:08me in the car, the one who picked me up
1:33:09from the airport,
1:33:11receiving a call on his phone and he
1:33:12said and he was told, "Look, there's a
1:33:14security car ahead of you, security car
1:33:16behind you. You know, just keep calm.
1:33:18Keep following the car ahead of you all
1:33:21the way to the security headquarters
1:33:23near the Sheraton Hotel in Doha.
1:33:25Everything will be fine.
1:33:26And tell your friend that he'll be well
1:33:28treated."
1:33:29You know, so he doesn't need to run or
1:33:31escape or anything. There is no escape.
1:33:34Tell him to come down, everything will
1:33:35be fine.
1:33:36For me, it's like
1:33:38"Oh, that's fine actually." Like, you
1:33:39know, I mean, I don't give a damn.
1:33:41>> [laughter]
1:33:41>> It was like, you know, I left
1:33:43>> Why were you not scared?
1:33:44>> I wasn't.
1:33:45>> Why?
1:33:46>> Because, you know, for me,
1:33:49I thought
1:33:51the opportunity to come clean
1:33:53just presented itself. So, they put me
1:33:55in a room.
1:33:56Um I'm on a chair.
1:33:59There is a very long table at the other
1:34:00end there.
1:34:02Lights were on me just like this and I
1:34:04can barely see like I mean basically you
1:34:06know who will sit there and you know the
1:34:07people came nine of them. There were
1:34:09some Qatari intelligence officers and
1:34:11they were augmented by you know seconded
1:34:15you know because the Qataris were short
1:34:17on manpower they were using Sudanese and
1:34:19Jordanian intelligence officers to work
1:34:21with them.
1:34:22So there were Sudanese and intelligence
1:34:24and the Jordanian intelligence officers
1:34:26I did not know that but there was a
1:34:27camera and broadcasting to another room
1:34:30and the other room they were in French
1:34:32DGSE
1:34:33intelligence officers.
1:34:35So I'm sitting there
1:34:38and I'm kind of like I mean thinking
1:34:41okay
1:34:42what are they going to ask and so they
1:34:44said
1:34:45they were holding my passport is this
1:34:47your name? Yes. Okay and then they
1:34:50opened up you know another paper and
1:34:51they said
1:34:52did you go by these aliases and they
1:34:54were listing my aliases in Bosnia and
1:34:56the Caucuses and Pakistan Afghanistan. I
1:34:59said yes these are all mine.
1:35:01um
1:35:03Do you admit that you are an associate
1:35:05of Abu Zubaydah?
1:35:06yes
1:35:09They were taken aback like I mean
1:35:10usually
1:35:11people would say who? Abu what? You know
1:35:14it's like [laughter] you know but for me
1:35:15like I mean I wasn't playing dumb with
1:35:17them. I said yes of course I am an
1:35:18associate of Abu Zubaydah.
1:35:20okay
1:35:22Do you deny that you were trained at Abu
1:35:25Khabab camp?
1:35:26No.
1:35:27I don't deny that I was trained at Abu
1:35:28Khabab camp. I was trained at Abu Khabab
1:35:29camp.
1:35:33um
1:35:34Do you deny that you swore an allegiance
1:35:36to Osama bin Laden that you're a member
1:35:37of al-Qaeda?
1:35:38No.
1:35:40It happened in September in '97 and last
1:35:43year.
1:35:45um
1:35:46Do you deny that you went to this camp
1:35:48and this camp and this camp and then I
1:35:50said no no no it's all fine Like I mean,
1:35:53I've been to all these places."
1:35:55And then,
1:35:56you know, the chief interrogator said,
1:35:58"Wait a minute here. Like in the
1:35:59basically, something is wrong here. You
1:36:00know, why are you being like in I mean
1:36:02so honest here? Why are you becoming Why
1:36:04Why you are so, you know,
1:36:05straightforward?"
1:36:07It's like, "Oh, yeah. I know you
1:36:08expected resistance and I'm going to say
1:36:10like in I mean I I know hurling insults
1:36:12at you and calling you like in the
1:36:13basically the servants of the tyrants
1:36:15and you know, giving you some sermons or
1:36:17whatever. But no, actually like in I
1:36:18mean to tell you the truth, um 1 2 3 4
1:36:215, I told them exactly what I told you
1:36:23right now about all of you know, and
1:36:24they were listening,
1:36:25you know, intently.
1:36:27And so, they said,
1:36:29"And what were you doing coming here?
1:36:31You know, why did you come here?"
1:36:32Well, I had to get as far away from that
1:36:34place as possible and that's a, you
1:36:35know, fast, friendly, you know, what I
1:36:37thought friendly, you know, destination.
1:36:40Um I needed a place to think what to do
1:36:43next and I was thinking maybe I could
1:36:45stay here. After all, I'm a Bahraini. I
1:36:47could live in Qatar all I want. It's
1:36:48like in the GCC, you know.
1:36:50So,
1:36:52and it's like, "Oh, we see. Okay.
1:36:55Um
1:36:56then they started whispering to each
1:36:57other and then they said, "Give us few
1:36:58minutes."
1:36:59They went and goodness like in they took
1:37:00forever. And then they came back.
1:37:02They switched on all the lights and they
1:37:04were like in I mean smiling and they
1:37:06were, you know, first of all, shaking my
1:37:08hand and then giving me hugs.
1:37:10And they said, "Well done."
1:37:11Um
1:37:13so, does that mean like in I mean you're
1:37:15okay with with us
1:37:18you being our guest?
1:37:20You know, here. I said, "By guest, you
1:37:21mean like in the basically in a cell?"
1:37:22No.
1:37:24There are plenty of empty offices here.
1:37:25We going to repurpose one of them to be
1:37:27your bedroom here.
1:37:28Uh we will bring you good food. You
1:37:30know, you will have a good blanket, good
1:37:31place like in a a good bed to sleep on.
1:37:34You know, it's just we need to debrief
1:37:35you.
1:37:36You know, we need, you know, to ask you
1:37:38many questions. But if you're okay like
1:37:40in it could take few days.
1:37:41And then you're out. We promise.
1:37:44Okay.
1:37:45Uh do you really promise?
1:37:47He said, yes, you know, on my honor.
1:37:50What shall I do? You know, they call it
1:37:51in Arabic. Okay.
1:37:53So, I gave them lots of information that
1:37:56led to the first ever photograph, you
1:37:59know, the passport copy. I knew where
1:38:01the exact location of a passport copy in
1:38:03Peshawar of Abu Zubaydah.
1:38:05And his picture in it in a bank with the
1:38:07bank account.
1:38:09And the bank account he used on behalf
1:38:11of Al-Qaeda.
1:38:13So, in Peshawar exactly it was next to
1:38:16where exactly like in I mean so I draw
1:38:17them lots of maps, lots of phone
1:38:19numbers, lots of like in the places like
1:38:20in all of that like in a bit in and and
1:38:22then
1:38:24day nine came
1:38:26and I was thinking okay, the few days
1:38:27are now coming into double digits days
1:38:29like in a basically like in I mean you
1:38:30know, yes, there were three meals from
1:38:32the Sheraton and everything and I'm
1:38:33grateful but like in I mean I don't like
1:38:35to be, you know, losing liberty like in
1:38:38I mean and so so I said you told me like
1:38:41you know, I will be leaving. They said
1:38:43oh no, don't worry like in a basically
1:38:44your good day has come so come with me.
1:38:47they took me to see a very senior Qatari
1:38:49you know, security official who's also a
1:38:53royal and a member of the royal family.
1:38:56And there he gave me like in a basically
1:38:58the the bombshell.
1:39:00A really big bombshell to my life like
1:39:02in a the biggest bombshell of my life
1:39:04like in I mean until then.
1:39:06Where he said to me, look first of all,
1:39:09we thank you so much for everything
1:39:11you've done. You made us look good in
1:39:13front of our
1:39:14you know, intelligence partners in
1:39:16France.
1:39:18You know, you know, Abu Zubaydah was an
1:39:21was a was an important person for them
1:39:23because he was one of those people
1:39:25responsible for the 1995 metro bombings
1:39:28in Paris.
1:39:30Yeah, I said I knew that. So
1:39:32yeah, a lot of the information you
1:39:34provided like in I mean has led to, you
1:39:36know,
1:39:37a lot of points of inquiry. It could
1:39:39lead to arrest. It could lead to
1:39:40convictions. You know, you've done
1:39:42really well.
1:39:44Listen,
1:39:45we cannot keep you here in Qatar.
1:39:47You know, because
1:39:49Doha is only 200,000 people. At the
1:39:51time, it was really a tiny town. You
1:39:53know, lots of your friends could see you
1:39:55here, will know you, will know like I
1:39:56mean about you like you know that you
1:39:58you don't want to go back and
1:39:59and they invested so much in you like I
1:40:01mean and we can't, you know, risk uh
1:40:04your life. So,
1:40:05what we are suggesting is
1:40:07there are three intelligence agencies
1:40:08that are very interested in
1:40:10working with you. And it's like, "Oh my
1:40:13god, that's not exactly like I mean
1:40:14basically what I had in mind."
1:40:17He said to me, "Look,
1:40:19you seem to me like an intelligent
1:40:21person.
1:40:22Do you really think
1:40:25with everything that you've been
1:40:26involved in
1:40:27that there is an easy way out?"
1:40:32Uh okay. So, you mean like I mean
1:40:35basically I have to pay my taxes like I
1:40:38mean in order to have the easy way out.
1:40:40Yeah.
1:40:41You know, so
1:40:42uh you have to pay some tax here.
1:40:45Um
1:40:47So, I said, "Who's asking?"
1:40:50So, he said, "Yeah, I'm glad like I mean
1:40:51basically you're dealing with it as a
1:40:52matter of fact. Okay, so it is the
1:40:54French, the Americans, and the British."
1:40:56>> So, you have CIA recruiting, you have
1:40:58MI6 recruiting and the DGSE.
1:41:01>> So, I said
1:41:02>> So, French intelligence, American
1:41:03intelligence, and British intelligence.
1:41:04>> Yeah.
1:41:05So, I said,
1:41:06"I don't like the French language.
1:41:08I don't like French culture. So, ex
1:41:11straight away.
1:41:12As for the Americans, I just survived,
1:41:15you know, 4 months ago I just survived,
1:41:16you know, their cruise missiles. Not
1:41:18exactly like I mean you know, a friendly
1:41:20conversation going to be.
1:41:22>> [laughter]
1:41:23>> Um
1:41:25Uh the British, however, like I mean
1:41:26basically it's an easier,
1:41:28uh
1:41:29you know, ask."
1:41:30>> Why? Why not Americans? Because if you
1:41:32would help them, because you were the
1:41:35Because
1:41:36your people and the place that where you
1:41:38were, they were the biggest enemies of
1:41:40American and they've caused maximum
1:41:41damage to America. So, if you would have
1:41:43helped them, they would have probably
1:41:44given you a lot more, right?
1:41:48>> Remember that I
1:41:49was trained
1:41:51on counterintelligence inside Al-Qaeda.
1:41:55And one of the things,
1:41:58you know, we were told
1:41:59that MI6 was far superior to CIA.
1:42:03>> Why?
1:42:03>> Because they have far better
1:42:05intelligence gathering techniques,
1:42:08capabilities when it comes to human
1:42:09intelligence. Like in I mean, they care
1:42:11more for their agents and they have far
1:42:14more loyal, you know, they are more
1:42:15loyal to their agents.
1:42:17While the Americans is always the use
1:42:19and abuse, you know, way. So, it stuck
1:42:22in my mind for some reason.
1:42:24>> Is it true?
1:42:25>> Yes.
1:42:27>> British intelligence cares about their
1:42:28agents and American intelligence
1:42:30doesn't.
1:42:30>> Not.
1:42:32>> They don't care.
1:42:33>> They use and abuse and discard. Use,
1:42:37abuse, discard.
1:42:39The Brits, however, loyalty to the end.
1:42:42Absolute loyalty to the end and I
1:42:43testify to that.
1:42:45Thank God I did that that day.
1:42:47>> Okay.
1:42:48>> So, then?
1:42:49>> Made the right choice.
1:42:50>> So, you joined British intelligence.
1:42:52>> So, I was asking him, "Okay, how long do
1:42:54I have, you know, before I make my final
1:42:56decision?" He said half an hour.
1:42:58Wow, generous. Okay. So,
1:43:01um
1:43:03Can I have a Can I go to, you know, my
1:43:05room, the office, like you know, what
1:43:07I'm in prison because there is a prayer
1:43:08mat there. I'm going to pray the goddess
1:43:09prayer and
1:43:11I prayed the goddess prayer. I felt
1:43:12better.
1:43:13Um
1:43:14When is the flight to go? Tonight. Wow.
1:43:16No wasting time, huh?
1:43:18Um So, I remember, like you know,
1:43:20basically it was, you know, 16th
1:43:22December, uh
1:43:241998,
1:43:25uh two British
1:43:27uh
1:43:28intelligence officers, um Um, the both
1:43:31heads actually, like you know, that was
1:43:33surprising to me but the head of
1:43:36counter
1:43:38uh, Islamist terrorism in MI6 and the
1:43:40head of the counter Islamist terrorism
1:43:41in MI5. Both of them were waiting for
1:43:43me. So, I arrived there
1:43:45and they were there.
1:43:47And they took me aside and of course
1:43:49they took me into a room and everything
1:43:50and all of that there were debriefings.
1:43:52And based on
1:43:55everything they said
1:43:56before Christmas was you know just this
1:43:59just 9 days away. They said we didn't
1:44:01know that Santa was living in
1:44:02Afghanistan. He sent us such a wonderful
1:44:03gift.
1:44:06And there started the journey of 8
1:44:08years.
1:44:10I was told there would be debriefings
1:44:11that would last 2 months. What city was
1:44:13this?
1:44:14>> What city you met in?
1:44:15>> Heathrow.
1:44:16>> Okay.
1:44:16>> Yeah. Yeah, London.
1:44:18And then a whole, you know,
1:44:21uh, cover story was,
1:44:22uh, you know, created and then, you
1:44:24know, uh, in conjunction with the
1:44:26Qataris about like in me needing an
1:44:28urgent,
1:44:29uh, care in a hospital in Cromwell,
1:44:31uh, you know, a road which is Cromwell
1:44:33Hospital in London and all of that and,
1:44:35you know, but and then I was able to
1:44:38naturally, you know, uh, just like in I
1:44:40mean, uh, melt into the Al-Qaeda, you
1:44:43know, infrastructure in London.
1:44:45So, they thought like, "Okay, since you
1:44:47are in London already, you know, you
1:44:48might as well like in I mean do this do
1:44:50this do that." And I
1:44:51>> But you never went back to Afghanistan.
1:44:52>> No, I did.
1:44:53I mean what like in I mean, you know,
1:44:55you have to.
1:44:56Tax.
1:44:57>> [laughter]
1:44:58>> You have to pay your tax.
1:44:59>> So, you were okay. So, these British
1:45:01officers met you and then you smoothly
1:45:03entered Al-Qaeda operations in London.
1:45:05>> Yeah. Although like in there is a very
1:45:07sophisticated, um,
1:45:09cover story. Read the book. Don't be
1:45:10lazy. But anyway,
1:45:11>> [laughter]
1:45:12>> um, but it was there that, uh,
1:45:15um,
1:45:16uh,
1:45:16within months it became very clear that
1:45:19I have to go because
1:45:22like Al-Qaeda is asking for me to back
1:45:23like in I mean many people are asking me
1:45:25for me back like in I mean and I'm
1:45:26"Okay, but how how do you avoid you know
1:45:29being pulled into operational role?"
1:45:32Because I'm a warmonger after all.
1:45:34So, again we created like you know took
1:45:36a while we created a whole new you know
1:45:39business cover. So, how to target
1:45:42certain leaders of Al-Qaeda with
1:45:43business proposals about like you know
1:45:44me helping them export
1:45:47honey and spices and Himalayan salt you
1:45:49know from Pakistan and
1:45:52what is called in the Pakistani
1:45:54administrative Kashmir you know to the
1:45:56GCC. You know which made a lot of money
1:46:00you know for these Al-Qaeda leaders. It
1:46:02was for their personal use so they can
1:46:04marry two or three more wives like you
1:46:05know basically each one of them. It was
1:46:07a brilliant strategy. It lasted 33
1:46:09months perfect. You know and it allowed
1:46:11me to travel go and through and they
1:46:13didn't want to lose me to a
1:46:15turn attack. No, no, no, this is very
1:46:17valuable guy. He's making us money.
1:46:19So, it I wasn't making money for the
1:46:22organization. I was making money for
1:46:23five leaders.
1:46:25You know for their personal you know
1:46:27income.
1:46:28>> And then but in London what were you
1:46:30doing for them?
1:46:31>> London it was all about equipments that
1:46:35you know satellites phones which we used
1:46:37to
1:46:37MI6 used to
1:46:39you know rigging order to listen on
1:46:40their conversations
1:46:43and of course like you know I mean you
1:46:44know there was the question of
1:46:46fundraising and most importantly
1:46:48recruitment.
1:46:49>> In 2015 US government produced a
1:46:52document which is
1:46:55a recruitment form of Al-Qaeda.
1:46:58>> Yeah.
1:46:59>> So, do you used to use recruitment form
1:47:01for people to just fill this and come
1:47:02join you?
1:47:03>> This happened more later when the
1:47:06recruitment
1:47:07started to become digital and online.
1:47:10You see
1:47:12we are the analog generation. You know
1:47:15the next generation of Al-Qaeda
1:47:17operatives became more digital savvy.
1:47:19You see like you know I mean at that
1:47:20time it was 1998. It was 1999. It was
1:47:23all the way until 2001.
1:47:25You know, there was no Twitter. There
1:47:27was no
1:47:28Facebook. There was no social media
1:47:30whatsoever. You know, we were really
1:47:33really like I mean analog. So,
1:47:34recruitment happened face-to-face.
1:47:36Recruitment happened from mosque to
1:47:37mosque to university campus to
1:47:40university campus. You know, so it was
1:47:43individual to individual. That's why the
1:47:44numbers were small.
1:47:45>> Okay.
1:47:46>> But with the digital age and the net
1:47:49you know, you no longer have to you
1:47:51know, use a fishing rod. You can use the
1:47:53net to catch more fish. You know, so we
1:47:57use the net later.
1:47:58>> You got it. And then how was the
1:48:00funding? Who was funding
1:48:02who are actually even today
1:48:04what is the main source of funding for
1:48:06these terrorist camps?
1:48:07>> Always several like in a way. First of
1:48:09all, if they have a territory, they will
1:48:11exploit natural resources in them.
1:48:14Um you know, they will tax the routes.
1:48:16They will do kidnapping for ransom,
1:48:17extortion. You know, that is the main
1:48:20criminality, smuggling, protection of
1:48:22smuggling routes.
1:48:24All you know, all of this is a way of
1:48:27you know, getting money. The biggest
1:48:29fundraising happened between 2002 all
1:48:32the way until 2015
1:48:34was in fact hostages.
1:48:36You know, it's lucrative.
1:48:38>> But you were involved in funding, right?
1:48:40Raising funds.
1:48:41>> The I mean, nominally the whole idea is
1:48:44to check on those who were you know,
1:48:48fundraising and to make sure like I mean
1:48:50that they are doubling and triple you
1:48:52know, tripling their efforts you know,
1:48:54for the fundraising. Especially those
1:48:55who were you know, in London and Paris
1:48:57and Berlin and Stuttgart and
1:48:59Amsterdam and all of these places. You
1:49:01know, and they were doing it through
1:49:03dedicated donations or criminality.
1:49:06>> Do they use
1:49:08drugs and arms weapons and all of these
1:49:11smuggling money?
1:49:12>> Um
1:49:13they did not smuggle themselves. What
1:49:14they did is that in places like between
1:49:17Afghanistan and Iran they were
1:49:18protecting the caravans.
1:49:20So, they were taking money for the
1:49:22protection, not for the actual drugs
1:49:24itself. They didn't get involved. It's
1:49:26sort of like a very weird thing. Look,
1:49:29I'm not going to like an I mean trading
1:49:31pork, but I'm going to tax the pork that
1:49:34is being sold, you know, or passing
1:49:37through. So, it's like kind of I'm not
1:49:39going to touch something that is
1:49:40prohibited, but I'm going to tax, you
1:49:43know, the process through which this
1:49:45prohibited item is passing through. It's
1:49:47like, "Okay, fine." You know, it's like
1:49:49kind of like an I mean a nice way of uh
1:49:51justifying taking money for something
1:49:53that is
1:49:54perfectly criminal. [clears throat]
1:49:56>> But then Al-Qaeda would never sell
1:49:59drugs.
1:50:00>> Themselves, no.
1:50:01>> Because they believe that this is wrong.
1:50:03>> Yeah, yeah, they believe they wouldn't
1:50:05sell alcohol, they wouldn't be engaged
1:50:07in, let's say,
1:50:08uh sex slavery or sex trafficking. You
1:50:11know, there are things they wouldn't
1:50:13touch because they, you know, again,
1:50:14this God-fearing thing. They think that,
1:50:17you know, "Oh, I will be, you know, uh
1:50:19putting in my mouth, you know, a bread
1:50:21that is bought by something that is
1:50:24completely forbidden." So, they wouldn't
1:50:26They wouldn't touch these things, but
1:50:27they would actually smuggle weapons, and
1:50:30they have no problem with that because
1:50:31weapons are not in themselves forbidden
1:50:34item.
1:50:36>> Why?
1:50:37>> Yeah, I mean, basically like an I mean,
1:50:38is there any Is it similar to pork or to
1:50:41uh you know, you know, sex with minors
1:50:44or something like that? Of course not.
1:50:46>> Mhm. Okay. And I was I was speaking to a
1:50:49British intelligence officer, MI6 chief.
1:50:51He said, "Even today, largely every
1:50:55terrorist group is funded by
1:50:58every gram of cocaine which is sold all
1:51:01amongst the top cities in the world. So,
1:51:04any young person who's buying cocaine is
1:51:07not realizing that they're not buying
1:51:08fun, they're buying terrorist
1:51:10activities." Is that true?
1:51:13>> That is true in the case of Hezbollah.
1:51:18Um when it comes to Hezbollah
1:51:20and the IRGC,
1:51:22um they have a different ruling on that.
1:51:25Uh religious ruling that
1:51:27as long as they draw as these drugs do
1:51:30not find their way into the hands of
1:51:32young Shia Muslims,
1:51:35that's fine.
1:51:36So, they used drugs to, you know,
1:51:40undermine Sunni Muslim states like
1:51:42Egypt, uh Turkey, Saudi, UAE, and Kuwait
1:51:46by flooding the market with Captagon and
1:51:49coke and other like you know kinds of
1:51:51drugs because they used it as societal
1:51:54warfare, you know, so to undermine, you
1:51:56know, these societies. They do that. Um
1:51:59and
1:52:01you know, it it's it's part of their
1:52:03also fundraising uh activity. That's
1:52:05That's why like in I mean, for example,
1:52:07Al-Qaeda
1:52:08and ISIS, you know, were not the narco
1:52:11terror organizations. Hezbollah and the
1:52:13IRGC are. But that doesn't mean that,
1:52:16you know, these people are more
1:52:18principled than the others. For example,
1:52:19ISIS traded, you know, just let you
1:52:21know, with the human organs.
1:52:24Every time they executed someone or
1:52:25beheaded someone, there are always
1:52:27doctors ready, you know, with the
1:52:29coolers and everything and all of that
1:52:30and they go and they uh dissect the uh
1:52:34uh the body after that and they uh send
1:52:36it to Turkey for the trade in uh human
1:52:39um
1:52:40uh organs. They did that.
1:52:42So,
1:52:43you know, it doesn't mean basically one
1:52:45terrorist is more fluffy than the other
1:52:47or more cute. No, they are all, you
1:52:50know, evil, but some, you know, engage
1:52:52in different kind of evil.
1:52:54>> Mhm.
1:52:55>> And
1:52:56when you used to recruit these people,
1:52:58when you were in Al-Qaeda, did you see
1:53:00that
1:53:01a lot of people were joining because
1:53:03they were offered honey trap and women
1:53:06and wives
1:53:08and all of these.
1:53:09>> That was ISIS.
1:53:12>> What was it? Can you tell me?
1:53:13>> ISIS were more about
1:53:15We are not Al-Qaeda. We are not like you
1:53:17know I mean people who live in the
1:53:18mountains like hermits and monks, you
1:53:21know, with no wives because I can tell
1:53:23you I spent 12 years of my life in
1:53:25different jihadi camps, you know, from,
1:53:26you know, Balkans to Afghanistan to
1:53:28Pakistan to Lebanon to Philippines to,
1:53:31you know, all of that. Not a single
1:53:32woman there.
1:53:33But then suddenly ISIS came in 2013 and
1:53:37completely flipped the script, you know,
1:53:40completely flipped the whole, you know,
1:53:42script. You know, women became an
1:53:45integral part, an equally integral part
1:53:47of a jihadi,
1:53:50you know, organization because they were
1:53:52building a society
1:53:54to build a state. How could there be a
1:53:56state without women? For us, as Al-Qaeda
1:53:59at the time, we believed that we are the
1:54:01vanguard.
1:54:02Women can wait.
1:54:04But now, no. So, that's why they were
1:54:06far more successful at recruitment
1:54:08because they were recruiting equal
1:54:10number of women as men.
1:54:12And this is exactly like, you know, I
1:54:15mean how these young women were going
1:54:18online and starting chatting these
1:54:20young, you know, boys and says, "Hey,
1:54:23you know, not only like, you know,
1:54:23basically you can come and you are
1:54:25empowered and you are fulfilling the
1:54:27prophecies and you are doing, you know,
1:54:29God's work and you are,
1:54:31you know, freeing your inner sadist
1:54:33violent, you know, tendencies, you know,
1:54:36the right way, in a way that God is
1:54:38pleased about it." No, no, no, also you
1:54:40will get to, you know, have, you know, a
1:54:43wife, you know, who's as beautiful as
1:54:45you would love, like, you know,
1:54:46basically. And you know,
1:54:48have her be your, like, you know,
1:54:50companion on this journey. It's like as
1:54:53if
1:54:54>> [laughter]
1:54:54>> it's like, you know,
1:54:56psychodating.com.
1:54:58It's like
1:54:59If I could
1:55:01>> [laughter]
1:55:02>> I I I think we need to buy the you know
1:55:05the domain now cycle dating.com.
1:55:08[laughter] We need to buy it right now.
1:55:12>> [gasps]
1:55:12>> But that's exactly what it was.
1:55:14>> So they would say that come join this
1:55:16and we would give you a wife. And they
1:55:18used to give it or no that was just a
1:55:19way to get
1:55:20>> Yes. Yes. Okay. Not only wives but they
1:55:22were the sex slaves too. You know the
1:55:24you know the thousands of Yazidi girls
1:55:26and Shia girls and Christian girls who
1:55:27were kidnapped from Iraq and Syria.
1:55:31You know and the Kurds are there.
1:55:33>> Yes. They were you know and sold as sex
1:55:36slaves.
1:55:37>> But that against the will of the women
1:55:39or were women were joining themselves?
1:55:41>> No. No. No. Of course not. Who would be
1:55:43you know a willing to become a slave?
1:55:44>> know like were they brainwashing people
1:55:46and women to come join them as well?
1:55:48>> The women
1:55:49you know who were
1:55:50>> were scamming at some point, right?
1:55:51>> Yeah. The women who are recruited at
1:55:53their free will because you know just
1:55:55like there are people who are men and
1:55:57boys who are willing to join jihad there
1:55:59are women. I mean you know never ignore
1:56:02that.
1:56:03The problem here is ISIS also kidnapped
1:56:07thousands upon thousands of Yazidi,
1:56:10Kurdish, you know, Shia and Christian
1:56:12girls from Iraq and Syria
1:56:14and brought them into their you know
1:56:16cities controlled by them to be sold in
1:56:19the slave market. You know so suddenly
1:56:20we have new slave markets revived again
1:56:23you know in that Euphrates basin in
1:56:25Syria and Iraq. And you know and then
1:56:28you are you are a young man you know
1:56:31from London or from Birmingham or from
1:56:34you know
1:56:35Marseille and you know in France or
1:56:37whatever and you're dreaming of becoming
1:56:39a jihadist and living the old days of
1:56:41the caliphate or whatever and oh I can
1:56:43buy a slave girl for myself. You know
1:56:45she's a 14 or 15 or whatever and let's
1:56:47listen to the stories. Listen to the
1:56:48survivors. You know and I don't need to
1:56:51listen to them you know to know what
1:56:52happened. I already know what happened
1:56:54from the old
1:56:55you know intelligence you know,
1:56:58documents and
1:56:59uh video evidence and the you know, and
1:57:02the photographic evidence that came out
1:57:03of there, it was horrific. So, they
1:57:07attract boys through that, through that
1:57:09promise
1:57:10that you will have access.
1:57:12You know, even if there is no willing
1:57:14wife, there is the unwilling slave girl
1:57:17who you can mold her to your liking.
1:57:19That's how they used to say.
1:57:24Come and be a hostage taker if we are
1:57:26really like I mean
1:57:28you know, so we have psychodating.com
1:57:30and now we have a hostage taking
1:57:32hostagedating.com.
1:57:34Hostage taking and hostage taking.
1:57:36>> to never happen, Al-Qaeda.
1:57:38>> No, Al-Qaeda didn't do that, you know,
1:57:40but then that's why Al-Qaeda actually,
1:57:42you know,
1:57:43this you know,
1:57:44I know that can be basically this sounds
1:57:45like you know, a bit strange, but when
1:57:47Al-Qaeda call ISIS evil, you know,
1:57:50um
1:57:50>> [laughter]
1:57:52>> you know that ISIS went too far. You
1:57:54know, because they really went too far.
1:57:56Al-Qaeda is the guy who will go into the
1:57:59house and then basically like I mean you
1:58:01know, put the gun to the guy who owns
1:58:03the safe, you know, tap the number,
1:58:05shoot the guy, leave with the money.
1:58:08ISIS is the people who will come, who
1:58:10will kill the guy, rape the daughters,
1:58:12you know, kill the wife, you know, kill
1:58:14the dog and the cat and then leave.
1:58:17So, that's the difference.
1:58:19>> But that doesn't make anyone better.
1:58:20>> It doesn't make anyone better.
1:58:22>> they're both freaking evil.
1:58:23>> Exactly. Exactly. Because why I say
1:58:26Al-Qaeda sometimes even more evil
1:58:28because Al-Qaeda made ISIS, gave birth
1:58:31to ISIS. They are the ones who actually
1:58:33started the path which made it possible
1:58:36for ISIS to exist.
1:58:37>> Mhm. So, now when you were hired by
1:58:39British intelligence and you went back
1:58:41to Afghanistan because you had to pay
1:58:43your taxes,
1:58:44what what were you reporting to the
1:58:47intelligence officers?
1:58:48>> Everything, you know, finance,
1:58:52you know, the new you know, basically
1:58:53people who are coming in and out the
1:58:56locations all the new abandoned
1:58:58locations new locations
1:59:00new routes
1:59:02you know, developments in the alliance
1:59:04between al-Qaeda and Taliban. You know,
1:59:07the fundraising activities the and
1:59:10especially you know, one of the things
1:59:12is that the safe house networks you
1:59:14know, outside of Afghanistan whether it
1:59:16is in Pakistan and Lebanon
1:59:18in Turkey and in Europe and other
1:59:20places. So
1:59:21you know, and of course like and I mean
1:59:22that was
1:59:24you know,
1:59:25>> Did your intelligence help them
1:59:28or catch someone?
1:59:30>> One?
1:59:32Just one?
1:59:34Over the years like and it must be a lot
1:59:36of this like dozens.
1:59:39Dozens because why? Remember between you
1:59:41reporting the information to them
1:59:43arresting someone it could take anywhere
1:59:45between a month to two years.
1:59:47Because they keep following and
1:59:48following and following because a one
1:59:50person could actually lead them to 20.
1:59:53>> Yeah.
1:59:54And then
1:59:56and
1:59:57also did your intelligence I was reading
1:59:59somewhere help them save
2:00:02the
2:00:03large attack which was going to happen
2:00:05in New York Subway?
2:00:06>> Yes, that was in 2003.
2:00:09It was supposed to be chemical
2:00:12weapons the cyanide and chloride that I
2:00:13was talking about before in Abu Khabab's
2:00:15camp which they were talking about using
2:00:17in cinemas and theaters and all of that.
2:00:19So they wanted to use in the subway
2:00:20system.
2:00:21>> In New York?
2:00:22>> In New York and you know, I was able to
2:00:24you know, first of all get
2:00:27you know, the intelligence
2:00:29warn them about it get the identity of
2:00:32the leader of the attack you know, in
2:00:35Saudi Arabia and you know, who was the
2:00:36leader of al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia that
2:00:37led to his death.
2:00:39They tried to capture him but he
2:00:41resisted so he died.
2:00:43And of course that led to other events
2:00:46which also led to the thwarting of an
2:00:49attack that was supposed to take place
2:00:50against the
2:00:52US fifth Fleet sailors in Bahrain.
2:00:56So, it was all like you know I mean
2:00:58connected all of these attacks and you
2:01:01know personalities were connected.
2:01:03Um it was like you know my proudest
2:01:05moments. I would say like you know I
2:01:06mean within the that happened between
2:01:082003 to 2004.
2:01:09>> Because you saved thousands of lives.
2:01:11>> I don't know if they are thousands but
2:01:14you know I think hundreds at least.
2:01:16>> And
2:01:18and when you used to go to
2:01:20Afghanistan
2:01:22this was
2:01:26this was their weapon shelters?
2:01:29>> Some of them yes like you know the use
2:01:31of container
2:01:34you know container like you
2:01:36>> have these containers and in these
2:01:38container they used to have all weapons
2:01:40and there was this written that
2:01:41don't worry we like the color of blood.
2:01:44>> Yes.
2:01:45>> Why would they write something like this
2:01:47on this?
2:01:49>> It's all about psychological warfare.
2:01:51You know you want to tell your enemy
2:01:53that you know we are ruthless. We are
2:01:56brutal. You know we are
2:01:58you know it's it's like you know how the
2:02:00Maori warriors like you know basically
2:02:02in New Zealand like you know dressing
2:02:03tattoos and you know have the haka dance
2:02:05like you know to you know to intimidate.
2:02:08>> But this is more to intimidate the
2:02:10outside let's say American troops or
2:02:13this is to instigate more emotions
2:02:15amongst the people who are going to use
2:02:17these guns and kill people.
2:02:18>> Well of course like you know I mean it
2:02:19works both ways you know it's to inspire
2:02:21your side and to
2:02:24intimidate the other.
2:02:26>> And what was about the shelter
2:02:29in Afghanistan that even the US missiles
2:02:32were not able to actually kill them.
2:02:34These were the shape of the shelters
2:02:36right? This is how it was a loose AI
2:02:38framing of
2:02:39how they're
2:02:41>> Well, I wish it was as clean and tidy as
2:02:44this. It was far more primitive than
2:02:47this. And you know, from inside it's
2:02:49still stone and still, you know, uneven
2:02:52surfaces and all of that. And the
2:02:54stairs, I wish they can call them
2:02:55stairs. Sometimes like you know, you
2:02:56could slip on them and just slide down.
2:02:59Um but yes, it's close, but it's not as
2:03:02organized and tidy and not as spacious
2:03:04as this. I can tell you that.
2:03:06>> But how how are they like how are they
2:03:09building this in a mountain that no
2:03:11missile can touch it? Like what's the
2:03:13reason?
2:03:13>> You just blow your way into these
2:03:15things. That's why we learn explosives.
2:03:17Like you know, one of the things we do
2:03:18is that we do that by shape charging.
2:03:21Like you know, basically, you know, how
2:03:22do you do you know, shape your device to
2:03:25directly explosive power and then you
2:03:28create these networks of, you know,
2:03:30you know, caves
2:03:31>> you just keep inside you build keep
2:03:33building caves.
2:03:34>> Yes.
2:03:34>> So whenever a missile will be
2:03:37thrown on you, it will blow up the upper
2:03:41side of the mountain and
2:03:42>> Exactly, but not you. You not you
2:03:43inside. You know, until they started use
2:03:45big bigger bombs like the MOAB and
2:03:47others, the mother of all bombs as they
2:03:49call it. Like you know, I mean, that's
2:03:50when
2:03:51you know, al-Qaeda, Taliban and of
2:03:53course like you know, the ISIS in
2:03:55Afghanistan, they learned the hard way.
2:03:56Like you know, I mean, that this is not
2:03:58you know, working anymore.
2:04:00>> So you you kept doing this. You helped
2:04:03British intelligence with all of the
2:04:06al-Qaeda network. You helped them save a
2:04:10lot of attacks. You helped save a lot of
2:04:12lives in New York subway system which
2:04:14could have been fatal. Right? When were
2:04:17you caught? When all of this stopped?
2:04:19Because you can't get out of this,
2:04:21right? It's not an easy way out.
2:04:23>> Yeah.
2:04:24Well,
2:04:25I mean, I remember it was June 2006
2:04:29and I asked my superiors. I said like
2:04:31look guys, I never had a holiday for
2:04:33very long time. In fact, I never had a
2:04:34holiday ever. You know, my first travel
2:04:37ever was was Bosnia and then
2:04:39you can't call it a holiday really. I
2:04:41never went inside seeing or anything.
2:04:42So,
2:04:43can I just have, you know, 4 days, you
2:04:46know, holiday like a you normal human
2:04:47being? And they said, "Yes, where do you
2:04:48want to go?" Paris. Okay.
2:04:51So,
2:04:52uh went there.
2:04:54Uh so, arrived there Saturday, Sunday
2:04:57I am, you know, taking a
2:05:00you know, a boat tour and uh my mobile
2:05:03phone, I had a
2:05:05a text message. Uh I look at it and you
2:05:08know, it was a text messaging when you
2:05:09have to press like in the same button
2:05:11three times to get to the letter, right?
2:05:12>> [laughter]
2:05:13>> So, it's like
2:05:14brother
2:05:15go into hiding. There is a spy among us.
2:05:20And so,
2:05:22uh-huh.
2:05:23Okay.
2:05:25So, it was coming from an associate of
2:05:26mine in Bahrain
2:05:27who is al-Qaeda also. And they go into
2:05:31hiding, there is a spy among us.
2:05:33Then the next text message came,
2:05:36go and read
2:05:37the Time magazine website.
2:05:42And I was thinking, okay, I'm in the
2:05:43middle of the river boat and I don't
2:05:44know how long it will take before it
2:05:45finish and now I'm nervous. It's like
2:05:47you see, it's like you're nervous and
2:05:49there is no access to the internet like
2:05:51in I mean, it's 2006, you know?
2:05:54So, as soon as like I don't know, like
2:05:5645 minutes later, like you know, we
2:05:58arrived at uh destination, I just left
2:06:00the boat, went into a um an internet
2:06:04cafe uh in Hotel de Ville uh in Paris
2:06:07and
2:06:08uh went time.com
2:06:11and then my heart sank all the way down,
2:06:15you know, basically to, you know, my
2:06:18feet, I would say.
2:06:20You know, really like you know, I mean,
2:06:21I was looking at it. It says,
2:06:23um
2:06:25Ronsoskind, who is a Pulitzer Prize
2:06:28winner
2:06:29uh in America, a journalist,
2:06:31got hold of secret CIA documents
2:06:34um leaking a lot of things and among
2:06:37them me, my identity, my the operations
2:06:41I am in but he says there in the
2:06:43headline he is now he wrote a book it's
2:06:45called the 1% doctrine and 46 pages of
2:06:47that book is about me.
2:06:49So and about the war on terrorism
2:06:51generally.
2:06:53And he
2:06:54uh wanted to
2:06:56publicize the book a week before it's
2:06:58published so he wrote an article article
2:07:00about the book and it says
2:07:03a brilliant spy inside al-Qaeda
2:07:07that's the headline a brilliant spy
2:07:09inside al-Qaeda helped thwart an attack
2:07:12against the
2:07:13uh New York subway in 2003.
2:07:163 years earlier.
2:07:18And I was like that you know that
2:07:21was always remain a secret no one knew
2:07:22about it. We kept it secret for 3 years
2:07:25and 3 months. I don't know how we did
2:07:27but we did it.
2:07:29Uh because the mastermind was killed in
2:07:30I remember you know so
2:07:33so what happened is
2:07:35um and then I started reading.
2:07:38It says a brilliant spy working for
2:07:40Americans it's like okay that's a
2:07:42mistake I'm not working for the
2:07:43Americans I never did anyway.
2:07:45So and then
2:07:46uh you know he was starting insinuating
2:07:49I'm from Bahrain.
2:07:51So he's starting now narrowing you know
2:07:53the uh search oh my god. He was involved
2:07:56in these operations. He he uncovered the
2:07:59identity of Yusuf al-Ayeri the first
2:08:01leader of al-Qaeda in Arabia he got him
2:08:03killed oh god okay.
2:08:05He uh thwarted the uh 2003 attack in
2:08:09subway you know in the subway in New
2:08:10York and then he
2:08:12uh
2:08:13you know thwarted the attack against
2:08:15uh the fifth fleet in Bahrain the
2:08:16sailors.
2:08:18And then he uh you know thwarted the uh
2:08:22you know the chemical device design
2:08:24reaching Hamas.
2:08:27Four operations I'm involved Thank you
2:08:29so much, you dumb idiots.
2:08:31>> And I was like Like was he Was he mad
2:08:33Like what was he thinking revealing this
2:08:35>> Yeah, yeah. But then But then he decided
2:08:37to go even further. He said, "Now we
2:08:40have to give this brilliant brilliant
2:08:42brilliant spy a name, you know, so we
2:08:44can talk about him."
2:08:46Um and then he, out of 4,000 different
2:08:48names in Arabic, he decided to choose my
2:08:49real birth name. He gave me the name
2:08:51Ali, which is my real birth name.
2:08:55So, Ali Bahrain,
2:08:57you know, Yousef al-Ayeri, you know, the
2:09:00attack in New York, the attack in
2:09:01Bahrain against the Fifth Fleet, and the
2:09:03Hamas link.
2:09:06Okay.
2:09:07Um
2:09:08you might as well put a crosshair, you
2:09:11know, and publish my face on it.
2:09:13Um
2:09:14so I left the internet cafe. I went you
2:09:19know to a payphone.
2:09:21Um and I called the emergency number for
2:09:24MI6, and I gave them the code Lawrence.
2:09:27Um and I said, you know, "It's
2:09:30emergency."
2:09:31Uh you know, "Get Simon, you know, to be
2:09:34on the line with me." You know, and so
2:09:36it was Sunday, like you know, but
2:09:37nonetheless, within 5 minutes, you know,
2:09:40my MI6 handler was, you know, on the
2:09:42phone with me. He said, "What's going
2:09:44on? What's happening? Are you okay? Did
2:09:45the French give you any trouble?" I
2:09:46said, "No.
2:09:47Go and read the Time magazine website,
2:09:49come back to me, and tell me what's the
2:09:51instructions."
2:09:525 minutes later, he called me, and he
2:09:54said,
2:09:56"What the fuck?"
2:09:57>> [laughter]
2:09:59[gasps]
2:10:00>> I said,
2:10:01"You know, Simon, I'm I'm the one who's
2:10:03supposed to tell you what the
2:10:05okay? Not you telling me what the fuck."
2:10:07He said, "No, but don't worry. Listen.
2:10:10You go to Gare du Nord.
2:10:12Whatever it is, just, you know, buy a
2:10:14new ticket if you can't amend yours.
2:10:16Come back to Waterloo in London right
2:10:18now.
2:10:19We will wait for Are there.
2:10:20Don't worry about anything. Just we
2:10:22don't want you to be worried worrying on
2:10:24the train. We will fix it. We will work
2:10:27a way out of this. But then the idea is
2:10:30how damaging it is.
2:10:32Uh permanently damaging.
2:10:35That's it. You're out of the field right
2:10:36now immediately like you know with
2:10:37immediate effect like you know you can't
2:10:38go back.
2:10:40It's like your old life completely
2:10:41severed. It's only a matter of time
2:10:43before
2:10:44they pin pin they pinpoint you already.
2:10:47You are on the short list.
2:10:49You already you are on the short list of
2:10:50suspects.
2:10:52So, okay.
2:10:54So, what do I do now?
2:10:55So, they said, "Okay.
2:10:57Wait with us like you know I mean so for
2:10:58the next 6 months I was doing a lot of
2:11:00like you know what you call briefings,
2:11:01trainings like you know basically
2:11:02meeting new um you know a new fresh MI6
2:11:06officers who are going into this
2:11:08counterterrorism thing. Uh talking to
2:11:10them about my experience, my ways and
2:11:12everything all of that. And then
2:11:13uh a senior
2:11:15uh official
2:11:17um he was like you know almost like you
2:11:18know the number two in the organization
2:11:19in MI6. He was he was he was leaving the
2:11:22organization retiring and going to work
2:11:24you know uh in a security and financial
2:11:27intelligence you know capacity for a
2:11:29global bank.
2:11:30So, he said, "I'm going to take him with
2:11:32me. He knows all about terrorism
2:11:34finance.
2:11:36I need him with me."
2:11:37You know, so
2:11:38hey, am I going to be a banker?
2:11:41What a downgrade from terrorism to
2:11:43banking.
2:11:44You know.
2:11:45>> [laughter]
2:11:46>> I would rather go back to be a terrorist
2:11:48up there.
2:11:49But nonetheless like you know I mean uh
2:11:50it's okay. I I I had to bear the
2:11:52indignity of being a banker for 9 years.
2:11:54Can you believe it? You know, after 8
2:11:56years of espionage you know I went into
2:11:58banking. Uh
2:12:00but I feel like you know basically as if
2:12:02I continued the same job.
2:12:03I did more than 200 investigations into
2:12:06terrorism finance, into uh money
2:12:08laundering, into uh
2:12:10charities, uh NGOs,
2:12:13uh high net worth individuals
2:12:15um from Latin America, West Africa,
2:12:18Mauritius, you know, uh uh, Southeast
2:12:20Asia, Middle East, uh, Europe. I mean,
2:12:23goodness like I mean it was a journey.
2:12:24>> But just I want to know because you said
2:12:26Londonistan and that's something that we
2:12:28all talk about it as well because we see
2:12:30it. 10 years ago the London versus
2:12:32today.
2:12:33It's just massively different and the
2:12:35radicalization is increasing left,
2:12:37right, center. Right? And why do you
2:12:39think it's happening? Is it like one of
2:12:40the agendas which started from before?
2:12:43Was it like organized or it just
2:12:44happened?
2:12:45>> Well, look, at the end of the day do you
2:12:48think viruses have agenda?
2:12:51>> Some do, some don't.
2:12:53>> Yeah, yeah, but
2:12:53>> In the beginning the the plant the seed
2:12:55is planted by someone.
2:12:56>> Exactly, but the virus doesn't have an
2:12:58agenda.
2:12:59A virus will spread where there is no
2:13:02resistance, where immunity does not
2:13:05offer resistance. So, any society that
2:13:08does not apply
2:13:10you know, and implement their laws
2:13:14and force and enforce these laws, then
2:13:17what's going to happen? The virus is
2:13:18going to spread. And so, Islamism
2:13:21and the jihadism in the West is like a
2:13:23virus.
2:13:25Uh, you know, if it doesn't, you know,
2:13:26encounter any resistance, you know, from
2:13:29the society, the body that they have
2:13:31infected, then they will keep spreading.
2:13:34You know, that's the agenda. The agenda
2:13:35is we will push the envelope if no one
2:13:37pushes you know, push back at us. Like
2:13:38you know, we keep going. And that's I
2:13:40think where
2:13:41you know, the West went, you know,
2:13:42completely
2:13:44uh, bunkers. I mean, they lost the plot.
2:13:46They lost their mind with it. Um,
2:13:49and now they will
2:13:51you know, there will come a day
2:13:53when
2:13:55I think
2:13:58we could see it on the streets of Europe
2:14:01that we could see the streets
2:14:04littered
2:14:06with bodies
2:14:08and pools of blood
2:14:10for the
2:14:11very reason that the political class
2:14:14there is not willing to confront the
2:14:17reality is that
2:14:18they have a virus and they are not
2:14:21doing anything about stopping the spread
2:14:24of it. And why it is enabled by
2:14:27um
2:14:29the left
2:14:30um which unfortunately with their
2:14:34as
2:14:36uh God said said before like in I mean
2:14:38suicidal empathy because of their
2:14:39suicidal empathy because the idea that
2:14:42you know well we are helping the those
2:14:43who are you know desperate that those
2:14:46who are in need, those who are
2:14:47vulnerable.
2:14:48When in fact the you know the only
2:14:51vulnerable people there
2:14:53you know is in are the societies
2:14:55themselves.
2:14:56>> Yeah.
2:14:57>> Yeah.
2:14:57>> And which
2:14:58give me top five cities or the countries
2:15:01which will get hit the hardest or is
2:15:03getting the hit hardest?
2:15:04>> I would say the entirety of England you
2:15:06know for example like there are many
2:15:07cities there and it's only London you
2:15:09know but you know all the almost the
2:15:11whole northeast and northwest you know
2:15:13whether it is you know the cities of
2:15:15Yorkshire there you know Manchester,
2:15:17Birmingham
2:15:18Birmingham is almost like in a lost I
2:15:20would say. London in particular and then
2:15:22>> Birmingham is lost.
2:15:24>> London, Birmingham, Manchester
2:15:27Blackpool, Blackburn, York
2:15:30and many other cities you know across
2:15:33the across the country
2:15:35are going to experience you know race
2:15:37riots again but this time it will be
2:15:39incredibly
2:15:41and incredibly lethal.
2:15:43And beyond that Paris
2:15:46Marseille
2:15:47um we will see
2:15:49Brussels being hit badly Antwerp we will
2:15:53see cities like Cologne in Germany,
2:15:56Berlin
2:15:57um unfortunately
2:15:59I don't think and of course they you
2:16:01know Amsterdam, Rotterdam and of course
2:16:04you know The Hague I mean many cities
2:16:06will experience that uh across Europe
2:16:10solely for the purpose that
2:16:13the Europeans are not
2:16:16strongly
2:16:17and effectively applying and enforcing
2:16:21their laws.
2:16:23>> Is it not increasing because you said
2:16:25wherever there's
2:16:27immunity is weak and it'll just spread,
2:16:29right? And the Western world, when you
2:16:31talk about Western world, there is
2:16:33there's America, there's Europe, there's
2:16:35now UK.
2:16:37Then
2:16:38even in the Eastern world, let's say
2:16:39Indonesia, Japan, bunch of other places,
2:16:41right? Why specifically England is
2:16:43getting hit the hardest and not America?
2:16:46Do you think America is getting hit, by
2:16:47the way?
2:16:47>> I think
2:16:48it's
2:16:49>> [sighs]
2:16:50>> you see the difference in the United
2:16:52States is the fact that
2:16:54it's a a new immigrant country, you
2:16:56know, so it's an immigrant country. You
2:16:58know, the ability of the United States,
2:17:00because of its sheer size, because it is
2:17:03a new world than at the old world, it
2:17:06wasn't inhabited by white people from
2:17:08the beginning. So, it is kind of like in
2:17:11the new world.
2:17:12Um the you know, most of the native
2:17:15population died long time ago because of
2:17:17you know, disease, you know, that's you
2:17:18know, were brought by
2:17:20the Europeans and the rest like in the
2:17:21basically were all those slaughtered or
2:17:23driven out of their lands. And so so
2:17:25really like in I mean, it is a virgin
2:17:27territory to some extent. So
2:17:30successive waves of immigration happened
2:17:32and so now, you know, we we have like in
2:17:35I mean, the Germans, the Swedes and then
2:17:37after that came the Irish and then after
2:17:38that like in came the Italians and every
2:17:41you know,
2:17:42every wave of immigrants you know, faced
2:17:44resistance.
2:17:46Um
2:17:48it is very interesting
2:17:49to see that Muslims who live in the rest
2:17:53of the United States with the exception
2:17:56of few
2:17:57I would say cluster points, New York in
2:17:59particular,
2:18:01um,
2:18:02and Dallas and
2:18:04um, Dearborn, Michigan. These three
2:18:07locations
2:18:09the Muslim community is clustered
2:18:12and once you have clustering
2:18:14it becomes
2:18:15almost like again, we come back to the
2:18:17virus, almost become like in a disease
2:18:19cluster. You know, you know, because
2:18:21this is when,
2:18:22um,
2:18:23the subversive,
2:18:26um,
2:18:27radical elements come and start to
2:18:28infect the minds of the young people
2:18:30there immediately. And, uh,
2:18:33you see vulnerability, but the rest of
2:18:35the United States doesn't experience
2:18:37that and the reason is because
2:18:39it's just huge country.
2:18:41Difficult for people to cluster. So, New
2:18:43York, Dearborn, Dallas, these three
2:18:46places you see the beginnings of
2:18:50radicalization similar to London because
2:18:52New York is on its way to becoming yet
2:18:55another Londonistan. You have, uh, Sadiq
2:18:58Khan in London
2:19:00and then you have, uh, Mamdani in New
2:19:02York. Uh, you couldn't have asked for a
2:19:04worse recipe
2:19:06for the spread of our enablement, I'll
2:19:09say, you know, enabling
2:19:11uh, radicalization because when you
2:19:13excuse it, you enable it.
2:19:15>> And how do you think New York will get
2:19:17into this? Because this is London model,
2:19:19right? Give me three steps if you have.
2:19:22Like step one, this is what happens.
2:19:24Step two, this is what happens. Step
2:19:25three, where things have gotten out of
2:19:27the hand.
2:19:27>> We already talked about it. I mean,
2:19:29first of all the entirety of the, um,
2:19:34intersectionality social justice
2:19:37movement in the US, which started, you
2:19:40know, with the Obama presidency like in
2:19:42the 2013, 14, 15 since the, you know,
2:19:45um, in the Brown shooting and after that
2:19:47like in the BLM,
2:19:49uh, Black Lives Matter and, you know,
2:19:51and suddenly like in the basically it's
2:19:52like everyone is a victim.
2:19:54And there you know, there there was this
2:19:56intersectionality of victimhood.
2:19:58Everyone is a victim. And if you want to
2:20:01have a privilege in society, just become
2:20:03a victim, please. Like and have your
2:20:04victim card ready to take it out. You
2:20:06know, so imagine if you are black, gay,
2:20:08and Muslim, oh my god, like you know,
2:20:10basically you have the triple victimhood
2:20:11status,
2:20:12>> [laughter]
2:20:12>> like you know, I mean privilege, super
2:20:14privilege. Take it out and that's it,
2:20:16like you know, you are a protected
2:20:18person, you know, in the US.
2:20:21And this and and everyone who oppose you
2:20:23is racist.
2:20:24Everyone who oppose you is racist. So,
2:20:27first
2:20:28again, the mentality of victimhood. But
2:20:31what people don't understand that when
2:20:33you
2:20:34spread the idea of victimhood among
2:20:38specifically, you know, young Muslims,
2:20:41that is pouring gasoline on fire
2:20:45because of the specific nature of the
2:20:50Muslim communities that are there in the
2:20:52West, you know, especially in New York.
2:20:53In New York, there are plenty of
2:20:55Egyptians who are sympathetic to the
2:20:56Muslim Brotherhood. There are many who
2:20:58are of Palestinian origin. There are
2:21:00those who are, you know, mostly from
2:21:02North Africa. So, perfect mix of people
2:21:06with
2:21:07huge amount of grievances
2:21:09already like you know, escaping,
2:21:12you know,
2:21:13the
2:21:14you know, the societies and the
2:21:15countries where they felt that they were
2:21:17not safe anymore
2:21:19there. And then you tell them in the
2:21:22middle of New York, which is one of the
2:21:23most affluent cities in the world, um
2:21:26that they are victims. This is when
2:21:29immediately the weakness is like you
2:21:31know, when what the left did through the
2:21:34victimhood narrative is that to weaken
2:21:37the sense of belonging
2:21:41you know, among young Muslims. So,
2:21:43that's the that's the first thing.
2:21:44>> So, step one is
2:21:46>> alienate them.
2:21:47>> Alienate them and
2:21:49celebrate the victimhoodness and
2:21:52actually give that victimhoodness a
2:21:54power.
2:21:56>> Exactly.
2:21:56>> This is This is you're a victim
2:21:58and you need to stand up and come
2:22:00together if you are a victim or else
2:22:02things are bad for you.
2:22:03>> Exactly. So, first make them feel weak.
2:22:06Make them feel that they are victims of
2:22:09the state machine, a state machine that
2:22:12is targeting them specifically
2:22:14>> Mhm.
2:22:15>> because of their faith.
2:22:16>> Okay. So, that's step one.
2:22:17>> Yes. So, step two, the radicals come in.
2:22:20>> So, step one in New York has already
2:22:22happened.
2:22:22>> Already happened.
2:22:23>> Okay.
2:22:24>> Step two comes in the radical preachers.
2:22:27And the radical preachers always will
2:22:30always,
2:22:31you know, use
2:22:33certain grievances to galvanize,
2:22:37you know, the young people into action.
2:22:39So,
2:22:40I call it always, you know, the moon
2:22:42cycles. You know, so when people used to
2:22:45ask me like you know I mean how do you
2:22:46see the waves of radicalization, you
2:22:49know, in the Muslim world? And I say
2:22:50like you know there was always the like
2:22:51the moon cycle. You start with a new
2:22:53moon, a full moon, a waning moon and,
2:22:55you know, and that's it. So, what are
2:22:57the full moon cycles? The full moon
2:22:58cycles when everyone go nuts. You know,
2:23:01>> [laughter]
2:23:01>> you know, for example, you always hear
2:23:02about, you know, the uh word lunatic.
2:23:06And where does the word come from?
2:23:08From luna. Luna is the moon. So, it's a
2:23:09Latin word, you know, for the moon,
2:23:11luna. And lunatic is, you know, the
2:23:14three nights where the moon is full and
2:23:16the gravity of the moon was always
2:23:18blamed, you know, for how people were
2:23:19acting crazy,
2:23:21>> [laughter]
2:23:22>> during that cycle. And so,
2:23:24so for me there are always full moon
2:23:26cycles within the Muslim world in the
2:23:28modern age.
2:23:29And these full moons are Afghanistan in
2:23:3119
2:23:33you know
2:23:34'70s. Of course, before that there was
2:23:36the Palestinian cause in the 19 '60s.
2:23:39We have the
2:23:40>> [snorts]
2:23:40>> Afghanistan like you know as I said to
2:23:42you in 1950s and
2:23:44I'll repeat this again.
2:23:45So, what are these moon phases? You
2:23:47know, for we have our first full moon
2:23:49during the in the 1960s and early 70s,
2:23:53it was the Palestinian cause and the
2:23:55terrorism that came with it.
2:23:56Uh and then we have the Afghan Jihad in
2:23:591980s. You know, that was another full
2:24:01moon. And then we have the Bosnian and
2:24:03the
2:24:04um Caucasus, you know, the Chechnyan
2:24:06Jihad. That was the 1990s. And of
2:24:08course, like you know, 9/11 was the new
2:24:11moon with it and with it came Iraq and
2:24:13Yemen and and then I I know in the in
2:24:15the 2010s, we have Syria. That's another
2:24:18moon, you know, coming. So, what do we
2:24:20have in the 2020s?
2:24:22Gaza.
2:24:23So, you couldn't have asked for It's
2:24:26like every decade, it's like a month for
2:24:28us. And there is always in the middle of
2:24:30the decade, like you know, we have a a
2:24:31full moon where people go lunatics. And
2:24:35you know, so in the 19
2:24:3760s, Palestine Palestine Palestine. 19
2:24:40you know, 70s, the same. 1980s, we have
2:24:42of course the Afghan Jihad, the Islamic
2:24:44Revolution in Iran and
2:24:47um you know, and of course the
2:24:48uh in the 1990s were the Bosnian you
2:24:50know, genocide and the Chechnyan war
2:24:52against the Russians and um and then of
2:24:54course, like you know, I mean, came 9/11
2:24:56and came the Iraq war. Um
2:24:58and then the Syrian uprising and
2:25:01everything that comes with it. So, every
2:25:04conflict have its own gravitation, you
2:25:08know, effect uh on, you know, young
2:25:11Muslims to be radicalized. And so, in
2:25:14New York now, uh you know, so we have
2:25:17the victimhood's, you know, narrative
2:25:19taking over. So, the radical preachers
2:25:21come in and say, "What are you doing,
2:25:24you know, for your brothers and sisters
2:25:26in Gaza?"
2:25:27You know, and so it's like they are
2:25:29waiting for you to take action. They are
2:25:31waiting for you. No, no, they are not
2:25:32waiting for anyone.
2:25:33You know, they are waiting for a real
2:25:36solution to the problem in a basically
2:25:38coming from the adults, like you know,
2:25:39they don't need you or anyone else, like
2:25:40you know, I mean, to intervene. But
2:25:41nonetheless,
2:25:43the radical preachers, they tell them,
2:25:45you know, well Gaza of course nothing
2:25:47they do they can scream in the middle of
2:25:49Times Square for the rest of their lives
2:25:52and they will never change a single iota
2:25:56of the equation that is taking place
2:25:57right now in Gaza or Israel or the West
2:25:59Bank. They will not change anything.
2:26:01They can scream all their lives. But
2:26:03what the what what the radical preachers
2:26:04want them is that through that screaming
2:26:07through that action through that
2:26:08protesting through that you know,
2:26:11you know, euphoric violence
2:26:14that they direct at the New York police,
2:26:17the state, the university campuses and
2:26:20their authorities what they do is that
2:26:23they enhance inside of them that sense
2:26:27of you know
2:26:29rebellious nature which can be enhanced
2:26:32later to be well, what you are doing
2:26:35when you are on the streets of New York
2:26:37that's your jihad.
2:26:40And that's when you start
2:26:43the empowerment process.
2:26:45You know, this is when I offer you
2:26:47something here. Empowerment. You know,
2:26:49you are you were downtrodden you are in
2:26:52a victim of the state machine here.
2:26:55You know, everyone is after you. The FBI
2:26:57is after you. The city police is after
2:26:59you. ICE is after you, the immigration
2:27:01people. Well, whatever everyone is after
2:27:03you. But you know what like in the you
2:27:04have you know, we together you know, we
2:27:06can form our own community and we can
2:27:09fight against this Zionist you know,
2:27:12crusader
2:27:14conspiracy and this is when
2:27:16the Al-Qaeda
2:27:18mentality
2:27:20start to seep in and they start to
2:27:23recruit their own people through that.
2:27:25Because already the left done the
2:27:28foundation work for them.
2:27:29They convinced everyone they are
2:27:30victims. Now the radical preachers come
2:27:33in and convince everyone that they have
2:27:34the empowerment solution. Then the final
2:27:38stage, okay.
2:27:40You're a victim.
2:27:41Now that you have been empowered,
2:27:45the final step is action.
2:27:47Whether it is action within the state,
2:27:50you know, the question of either you do
2:27:54clandestine action or overt action. So,
2:27:56overt or covert. So, the covert action
2:27:58is that recruit more people.
2:28:01Go around, preach the message, go to
2:28:04other communities outside of New York in
2:28:06order like in a way for them to see, you
2:28:08know, the light and to understand that
2:28:10we live in a society that could one day
2:28:13turn against us because we are
2:28:14different, because we're Muslim. You
2:28:16see, again, the
2:28:18closed loop, that vicious cycle of
2:28:21self-inflicted alienation.
2:28:23You know, because, you know, I want the
2:28:25other side to hate me. So, how do I
2:28:27make, you know, mainstream America hate
2:28:29me?
2:28:30When preachers
2:28:31start saying outrageous things.
2:28:34Same saying like, you know, that they,
2:28:36you know, that the Isla- the Islamic
2:28:38flag of the caliphate will fly over the
2:28:40White House one day or, you know, when
2:28:41they are talking about, um, you know,
2:28:44how Islam is so incompatible, you know,
2:28:46with American values and therefore
2:28:47American values must change, you know,
2:28:49in order to accommodate Islamic values
2:28:51in the US and all of these things. So,
2:28:53they say outrageous things. They
2:28:55alienate, you know, the majority of
2:28:57Americans and, you know, in turn, these
2:29:00majority of Americans will start to
2:29:02behave differently towards in Muslim
2:29:04communities Muslim communities in turn
2:29:05like, you know, feel a sense of
2:29:07alienation, you know, and that like, you
2:29:09know, will lead to victimhood and that
2:29:11will lead to empowerment and that you
2:29:13see, the whole
2:29:14>> then.
2:29:15>> cycle is being fed.
2:29:17And the other overt action is that
2:29:19either you go and protest and sabotage,
2:29:22you know, against the state. You protest
2:29:23against the state. You sabotage, you
2:29:25know, the state or you even take action
2:29:28by shooting against the state, by taking
2:29:30action against the state.
2:29:32That is the next step and it happened in
2:29:36the UK before.
2:29:37Because
2:29:39it was 1998
2:29:41when I saw with my own eyes the rise of
2:29:42Londonistan.
2:29:44Then
2:29:4617 uh sorry. Then 7 years later
2:29:512005
2:29:52what we see
2:29:53four young
2:29:55British Pakistanis you know, take their
2:29:57own lives and the lives of 52 other
2:29:59people in uh 7/7 bombings in London in
2:30:032005.
2:30:04And
2:30:05in 2017
2:30:07we see
2:30:08a young Libyan
2:30:10you know, who was a refugee who was
2:30:12rescued from a boat when he was a child.
2:30:14You know, he should actually at least
2:30:15have some gratitude. But you see, even
2:30:18those who are supposed to feel that
2:30:21sense of gratitude, they were able to
2:30:23get to them. Again
2:30:25you are alienated, you're a victim,
2:30:26you're this, you're that. So, he ended
2:30:29up what? Building a bomb when he was
2:30:31only a young man himself. He was He
2:30:33built a bomb.
2:30:34He dragged it in a suitcase
2:30:36in 2017 into a concert full of young
2:30:40girls in Manchester.
2:30:43And he killed 23 people including 21
2:30:46young
2:30:47little you know, kids. Seriously. I mean
2:30:52So, the steps that we've seen in UK and
2:30:56France and Germany um in um other parts
2:31:00of Europe
2:31:01we will start to see that in the US.
2:31:04And the incubator for that we start to
2:31:07already see.
2:31:08And especially in you know, New England
2:31:11like in I mean I would say like in I
2:31:12mean New York, uh Connecticut, Boston.
2:31:15We saw that in Boston I mean in 2013
2:31:17where two refugees from uh Dagestan you
2:31:21know, from you know, who uh again you
2:31:24know, were convinced by Al-Qaeda
2:31:25ideology and they did what they did. So,
2:31:28um
2:31:29we will start to see that and it will
2:31:31become more often.
2:31:32>> Here's my last question which I ask
2:31:34everybody is
2:31:38you've been
2:31:40an extremist, you've been involved in
2:31:42terrorist activities with terrorist
2:31:44groups.
2:31:45Then you became an intelligence officer.
2:31:48Now
2:31:49then you became someone who's helping
2:31:51these officers to catch on lot of
2:31:53terrorist and terrorist fundings in the
2:31:55world.
2:31:56Then you became an author. Now you are
2:31:59running companies and going out in the
2:32:01world and telling about your message how
2:32:03you were brainwashed and seduced in the
2:32:06world of terrorism which you never
2:32:09signed up for in the beginning, right?
2:32:12What is the cost of becoming who you are
2:32:16and living the life that you're living
2:32:18today?
2:32:21>> Well
2:32:23diabetes, heart conditions
2:32:25>> [laughter]
2:32:27>> hypertension,
2:32:29uh nerve damage, but
2:32:31um
2:32:33>> But what cost did you pay?
2:32:37>> Well I would say like in I mean the
2:32:39other way around I would say what did I
2:32:41gain?
2:32:43I think like in the whole journey I
2:32:44gained wisdom, insights
2:32:47and understanding human nature.
2:32:50And
2:32:52I don't think you know maybe the cost
2:32:53was physical. You know in terms of
2:32:55illnesses and sickness and all of that,
2:32:57but you know the gain in terms of
2:32:58knowledge and wisdom, understanding
2:33:01empathy
2:33:02>> But did you lose any part of you?
2:33:05>> I gained.
2:33:07>> You lost nothing?
2:33:08>> No, I lost, but I also gained and that
2:33:09gain was bigger than the loss.
2:33:12>> The wisdom gain was there, but did you
2:33:13lose any part of you which makes you
2:33:15question humanity in a certain way?
2:33:17Well or did you sacrifice opportunities?
2:33:20Did you sacrifice personal life? Did you
2:33:23sacrifice peace that you will never be
2:33:26able to sleep properly because someone
2:33:28somewhere is
2:33:30watching you and doesn't want you to be
2:33:32alive?
2:33:33>> Well,
2:33:35for me like and I mean
2:33:38I will die the day I'm supposed to die.
2:33:41And
2:33:42you know,
2:33:43given how many times I came close to
2:33:46death, whether by accident or design,
2:33:50um and I survived and that's why I
2:33:52called my biography nine lives. And it's
2:33:55like a cat. You know, similar to the
2:33:57cats that I rescued in every conflict
2:33:59zone I've been to. Sometime I feel like
2:34:02and I basically maybe it's them.
2:34:05You know what I mean?
2:34:06>> Yeah.
2:34:07>> Sometime like and maybe
2:34:09saving cats was as important as saving
2:34:11lives,
2:34:12uh human lives. So, maybe it's these
2:34:16feline nine lives like and basically
2:34:18that I've been given and you never know.
2:34:20>> Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you
2:34:22for spending time with us. I know you're
2:34:24short on time and you need to run right
2:34:26now, but it was a pleasure having you.
2:34:28>> The pleasure was mine, Raju. The
2:34:29pleasure was mine. Thank you for
2:34:30inviting me.
2:34:30>> Thank [music] you so much for sharing
2:34:31everything.
2:34:32>> Hello. I
2:34:33>> Hi, Raju. It is so good to see you.
2:34:35>> Pleasure to see you. Yeah, how are you?
2:34:36>> Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me
2:34:37to come on.
2:34:38>> I like how you explain. You You have a
2:34:40very good storytelling way of explaining
2:34:42things.
2:34:43>> Oh, thank you.
2:34:44>> like you make me visualize things.
2:34:47>> And basically I have photographic
2:34:48memory.
2:34:49So, when when people ask me like and I
2:34:51mean okay, [music] can you tell us like
2:34:53and I mean when I was a spy like and I
2:34:54basically, you know,
2:34:56I can describe every camp,
2:34:59>> [music]
2:34:59>> you know, I can draw it, locations, I
2:35:01can make a 3D map of the entire place.
2:35:04>> Thank you so much for watching this
2:35:05episode till the end. We would love to
2:35:07know what you liked or disliked about
2:35:10this episode and which guest you would
2:35:12like to see again on this show or which
2:35:15are the new guests that you want to see?
2:35:17Let us know in the comments. Your
2:35:18feedback helps us improve and make every
2:35:21episode a little better. I'll see you
2:35:24the next time. Until then, keep figuring
2:35:26out.
2:35:31>> [music]
2:35:38[music]

About this transcript

This page contains the full transcript of How Osama Bin Laden Built a Terror Network & 9/11 | Aimen Dean | FO550 Raj Shamani by Raj Shamani, generated from the public captions YouTube serves with the video. The transcript has 27,077 words across 4,608 segments, with the original timestamps preserved so you can click any line to jump to that moment in the embedded player.

What you can do with it

Use the transcript to take notes, quote the speaker, build a study guide, generate a summary with ChatGPT or Claude via the YouTube Summary tool, or export it as a timed subtitle file with YouTube to SRT. You can also re-open it in the transcriber to choose a caption track available on the video.

Free YouTube transcript tool

YouTube2Text is a free YouTube transcript generator — no signup, no daily limit. Paste any YouTube link and get the full transcript instantly, with timestamps, click-to-jump, caption language selection, AI prompts for ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini, and exports to TXT, SRT, VTT, or Markdown.