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How Odysseus Took His Revenge — Transcript

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0:00The Odyssey, an epic poem of one man's
0:0310-year journey home. Last time on The
0:06Ancients, we followed Adysius from the
0:08smoking ruins of Troy through lands of
0:10cannibal giants, sorceresses, and a
0:13journey to the underworld, only to leave
0:15him with a terrible prophecy and a home
0:18in chaos.
0:20Today we plunge into the most deadly
0:22part of the journey, the sea of
0:24monsters. As Adysius races towards
0:26Ithaca, past sirens, a whirlpool,
0:30through shipwreck and divine anger. Then
0:33finally, he arrives to a palace overrun
0:35with predatory suitors who has spent
0:37years devouring Adysius's wealth and
0:40courting his wife Penelopey, the worst
0:43guests imaginable. We will trace
0:45Adysius's secret return under the
0:47goddess Athena's disguise. his reunion
0:50with his son Tmicus and the buildup to
0:52one of the grizzliest climaxes in Greek
0:55myth, the slaughter of the suitors. And
0:58throughout we see how this landscape of
1:01slavery, of raiding and hostage taking
1:04were part of how masonian bronze age
1:06power worked in the real world. I'm your
1:09host Tristan Hughes and guiding us once
1:12more through these bitter bloody waters
1:14is the classicist and novelist Emily
1:17Hower. Welcome to the ancients.
1:24[music]
1:30>> Emily, great to have you back on the
1:32show.
1:32>> Wonderful to be back.
1:33>> It's almost as if we've just finished
1:34recording the other one.
1:35>> It really is. [laughter]
1:38>> But we are now halfway through the story
1:40of the Odyssey. And we can say that
1:42because this is literally the halfway
1:43point in the epic story.
1:45>> Yeah. Well, we're right at the kind of
1:47middle of those 24 books of the Odyssey.
1:49We're at kind of the end of book 11.
1:51We've got a little bit more adventuring
1:53to do before Adysius is going to land
1:54back on Ithaca, uh, which he does kind
1:56of at that halfway point. Um, but, you
1:58know, we're we're closing in now on the
2:00final goal.
2:01>> And, and to clarify, so people know
2:02exactly what we're talking about. So
2:04this second half of the story of the
2:07Odyssey, it is very much it's preparing
2:09you for Adysius's his his return to
2:13Ithaca, which should be like this great
2:15homecoming, but also it's it's not the
2:19loveliest homecoming, is it? It soon
2:21becomes a very grizzly episode at the
2:23same time.
2:23>> Yeah, he's definitely got problems
2:24ahead. [laughter] So you might sort of
2:26think that, okay, well, Adysius gets
2:28home uh halfway through the epic. What
2:30on earth are we going to do for the rest
2:31of the epic? He has got plenty to keep
2:34him busy. He has the massive problem of
2:36the suitors who are 108 men from around
2:40Ithaca and neighboring islands who in
2:42his absence while he's been away for 10
2:44years in the Trojan War, 10 years on his
2:46way home, they have uh come into his
2:48house into his palace, they have kind of
2:50eaten all his food, eaten him out of
2:52house and home. Uh been trying to
2:53persuade his wife to marry them,
2:55persuade her to accept that Adysius is
2:57dead. Um, and so he's got all of them to
2:59kind of get through as well as of course
3:01making sure that everybody is back on
3:02his side again.
3:03>> And this is not just the the telling off
3:05of the suitors. This isn't the exiling
3:06of the suitors. This is the slaughter of
3:09the suitors, isn't it?
3:10>> They're not going to get just a kind of
3:11slap on the [laughter] wrist. This is
3:12this is absolutely this is they are all
3:14going to get killed in a pretty kind of
3:16major blood bath. And not many people
3:17think of the end of the Odyssey as kind
3:19of ending with a blood bath, but it
3:20really does. It's it's it's a pretty
3:21vicious ending.
3:22>> And that's what we're going to build up
3:23to in the episode today. But first off,
3:26for anyone watching or listening who is
3:28coming into this episode cold, make sure
3:30you do go and listen to the first
3:31episode. But if you haven't, shall we
3:34just summarize where we've got up to by
3:36the end of book 12 of the Odyssey. So
3:38the halfway point. So we've covered some
3:40big themes, some big events so far.
3:42>> Yeah. Well, we've actually got up to the
3:43end of book 11. Sorry, book 11. Yeah.
3:45Yeah. No, but we've done a good chunk of
3:47the poem. So, what we're looking at with
3:48the Odyssey is about 24 24 books of
3:51poetry and uh we're sort of about
3:53hitting the halfway point. Uh we've had
3:55Adysius, he started out on Calypso's
3:57island. That's where we first met him at
3:59the beginning of the Odyssey. We've seen
4:00his son Tmicus go on his own mini
4:02voyage. Uh we've seen Adysius then being
4:05released from Calypso's island. Uh he
4:07gets into a storm. He gets washed up on
4:09the island of the Fiatians who are
4:11incredibly hospitable, treat him really
4:13nicely, and in return he gives them the
4:15song of his own voyages um as he kind of
4:18got there. And so we then get the tale
4:20of everything that happened to him from
4:21Troy, the famous episode of the Cyclops,
4:24of Cersei. Um we get all of that told by
4:27Odysius and then he ultimately ventures
4:29to the underworld.
4:30>> The underworld where we left him, wasn't
4:31it?
4:32>> That's where we left him. Exactly. on
4:33the shore of the underworld uh communing
4:35with the spirits of the dead uh and
4:37getting his directions for his way home.
4:38>> Yes. So, what have the dead and is
4:40Tyresius the prophet in particular,
4:42isn't it? What has Tyresius just
4:44revealed to Adysius?
4:46>> Yeah. Well, Teresus hasn't been hugely
4:47helpful if he was looking for a kind of
4:49Google Maps equivalent of how to get
4:51back to Ithaca. Um so, he hasn't given
4:53him that. But what he has told him is
4:55that sticky situation that, you know, we
4:57now know about with the suitors. um the
4:59fact that Penelopey is is still waiting,
5:01but that Adysius needs to really get
5:02back quite sharpish in order to make
5:04sure that he can reinstate himself as
5:06king of Ithaca. Um and he also tells him
5:08that he's got another voyage in his
5:10future. Uh once he gets back to Ithaca,
5:12he's got to go traveling again. So, this
5:14is very much a kind of uh telling us
5:16about what's going to happen in the
5:17Odyssey, but also telling us that
5:18Adysius is someone perhaps who can never
5:20really truly come home.
5:21>> Oh gosh, prophetic, isn't it? And he
5:23still has his crew at this time. So, at
5:25this point, uh, we're sort of heading
5:27into kind of the end of the voyage. He
5:29still does have some of his crew. Some
5:31of his crew. Yeah. I mean, we've kind of
5:32mislaid a few on various adventures. Um,
5:35but, you know, we do still have some of
5:36them. Um, however, that is about to get
5:39seriously reduced. Um, and we've got a
5:41monster lying weight in order to do
5:43that. And we've also got a kind of
5:45pretty serious uh kind of uh trespass
5:47that sacrilege they do. A sacrilege.
5:49Exactly. That the crew do themselves.
5:51Well, the last thing before we now kind
5:52of explore those next key events that
5:55you did mention in the first episode,
5:57but I want to bring it up again because
5:58it's so interesting, especially when we
6:01look at the figure of Adysius and how
6:02he's portrayed is this idea of him as a
6:05hero and how the ancient Greeks would
6:07have viewed him as a hero because it
6:10isn't just just pure bare bones
6:14idolizing this figure. This is also a
6:16figure who is quite for those associated
6:19with him, it's not going to be plain
6:21sailing.
6:21>> It's not. And in fact, the fact that he
6:24kind of brings destruction to his crew
6:27is something that is a really strong
6:28theme throughout the Odyssey because as
6:30the Odyssey opens, it says Adysius is
6:33striving for the return of his
6:35companions, you know. So, the fact that
6:37he fails to get them home is actually a
6:40really big part of Adysius's story. Um
6:42it's something that as a hero you are
6:44someone who is uh probably going to be
6:46so because you're such a kind of big
6:48figure because you have emotions and
6:51ambitions that cannot kind of be
6:52contained. Uh you can be very
6:54destructive to the people around you and
6:56it's Adysius's ambition to get back to
6:58Ithaca pretty much at all costs. Does it
7:01that is what ultimately then costs him
7:03all of his men.
7:04>> Absolutely. And one other thing that
7:06we'll be doing uh as this chat goes on
7:09is yes we'll be largely talking about
7:10the stories and these figures from the
7:13mythology uh man and myth uh beasts and
7:16so on but also exploring from time to
7:19time the real life locations that become
7:22linked to these key events. We've
7:25already mentioned we mentioned places
7:27like is it um Calypso on Malta um the
7:32Fishians on Corfu, the river Aaron which
7:36is actually a river today in northwest
7:38Greece.
7:38>> Yep. Exactly.
7:39>> And there are several more locations as
7:41well for the events that we're going to
7:42cover that people later associated with
7:45that actually being the place of the
7:47sirens of Cersei and and so on. Well,
7:50that's the thing is that when Adysius is
7:52kind of going on his voyage, it is a
7:53voyage through geography, right? The
7:55poet is describing islands. He's
7:58describing natural features. And so, I
8:00think throughout history, people have
8:01been so beguiled by the idea that this
8:03might be a real place and have kind of
8:05gone on their own little mini odyssey
8:07trying to find out where these places
8:08are. So, there are absolutely ways that
8:10we can match up what kind of later
8:12people thought might be the original
8:13places of the Odyssey.
8:14>> So, how did Rome begin? with a throne, a
8:17triumph, or a murder between brothers.
8:21Well, according to legend, the mighty
8:22city was founded by the twin sons of
8:25Mars, Romulus and Remis. Abandoned as
8:29infants, suckled by a shewolf, and
8:31destined for greatness until ambition
8:34poisoned their bond. I'm Tristan Hughes,
8:36and I cannot wait to get into the
8:38explosive story of Romulus and Remis on
8:41the Ancients live tour in Australia and
8:43New Zealand this August. I'm going to be
8:46joined by the fantastic Jeremy
8:48Armstrong. He's a professor of ancient
8:50history and an expert on early Rome. And
8:53together, we'll follow the myth from
8:55divine origins to blood soaked founding
8:58legend, teasing apart what the Romans
9:00believed, what archaeology can actually
9:02tell us, and how a city built on stories
9:06became one of the greatest powers in
9:08history. Tickets are on sale now. We're
9:11coming to Canra on the 2nd of August and
9:13we're going to be in Oakuckland on the
9:158th. The tickets, they are selling fast.
9:17So, book yours now at fain.com.auu.
9:22Can't wait to see you there. So, how
9:24should we kick off this story? Where do
9:26we begin for this second half of the
9:28Odyssey?
9:29>> Well, we're probably heading out of the
9:30underworld, aren't we? We'll get our
9:31ships. We'll we'll get them back off the
9:33beach. We'll say goodbye to the spirits.
9:35Um, we've had a little bit of
9:36information from the spirits, not just
9:37from Tyrese Yas, but also from the kind
9:40of triad of Greeks. We've had Achilles,
9:42who has done this amazing speech where
9:44he says that basically he would rather
9:46be the lowest laborer and be alive than
9:50be the king of the underworld. So, a
9:52complete turnaround from the Achilles of
9:53the Iliad we've got here. Uh, we've got
9:55Agamemnon who tells uh Adysius about all
9:58of the terrible things that happened to
9:59him back home. the fact that he was uh
10:01murdered by Clytoestra and her lover
10:04Agisus. Um and then we've got Ajax who
10:06just sulks and uh is is a bit annoyed
10:09that Adysius won the armor of Achilles
10:11which is one of those earlier episodes
10:13from the Trojan War. However, we draw
10:15our ships up. We say goodbye to the
10:16spirits and we go back and Adysius
10:19travels back to Cersei's island. Um and
10:21he's got quite an important job to do
10:22there. He's got to bury one of his uh
10:24comrades who had a tragic accident
10:27before Adysius left. uh and who actually
10:29appeared to him uh rather kind of
10:30tragically as a spirit as a shade in the
10:33underworld and said please bury my body.
10:35>> Did he did did this already know that he
10:36had died or was that revealed to him?
10:38>> It was revealed to him there. So it's
10:40it's a real kind of tragedy that that
10:43this guy Alpenor is his name kind of
10:44says you you need to make sure to bury
10:46me.
10:46>> And also as you mention and in the last
10:48episode so Cersei you know witch slash
10:52you know what we call many drugs. Many
10:54drugs Cersei
10:55>> with a [laughter] lot of a lot of
10:56knowledge of drugs.
10:58and a romantic relationship between
11:01Adysius and Cersei develops from that.
11:04And then he leaves to go to the
11:05underworld. And then he's gone back to
11:07Cersei's island. He doesn't stay there
11:08long for the second time.
11:09>> No. No. Now he's kind of got his
11:11purpose. He's got his mission. Yeah.
11:12He's got Exactly. And he's got kind of
11:14the problem, hasn't he? Because the the
11:15issue is now that he knows what's
11:17happening back on Ithaca. Tyresias, the
11:19prophet, has told him all of the
11:21terrible things that are happening. So
11:22now his sights have kind of moved from
11:25this fantasy world that he's been
11:26wandering around with sort of aimlessly
11:28and now he's really kind of sight set
11:30back on Ithaca.
11:31>> And so where does he head off to with
11:33his troops with his men from Cersei's
11:36island?
11:36>> So Cersei gives him kind of the
11:37directions that he needs to to carry on
11:39and he's got a couple of different
11:40adventures ahead of him. Um we've got
11:42famously Sila and Kuribdus. Uh so we've
11:45got uh basically a choice between two
11:48evils. We've got uh Kuribdus, which is a
11:50kind of sucking whirlpool, which you
11:51can't escape from. And we've got Silla,
11:54a kind of multi-headed dogheaded monster
11:57who kind of lurks in a cave and kind of
11:59zooms out and snatches sailors from the
12:01ship. So,
12:01>> and as Cersei said, you have to go past
12:04one or two of choose one of those. And
12:06she advises him that Silla is probably
12:08the better one. Uh we kind of have got
12:10to know Adysius over these episodes.
12:12He's going to sacrifice a few men. Uh
12:13and that's exactly what he does. So, he
12:15ends up losing six men on the way past
12:17Zilla. So that's where he's got to get
12:18to. But do we have the sirens episode
12:21before that?
12:22>> We do. So before we even get there,
12:23we've got the sirens on the way. Let's
12:25do that.
12:25>> Yeah. So the sirens are really
12:27interesting because the sirens um they
12:30are meant to kind of be these ultimate
12:32lure to men. And if you basically go
12:34past the sirens, you're not going to be
12:35able to resist them. They've got the
12:37wreckage of ships kind of around and
12:39beneath them. Um but Adysius, of course,
12:41is ultimately curious. Uh he will not be
12:44stopped. And so Cersei suggests to him,
12:46if you want to hear the song of the
12:48sirens, then what you need to do is you
12:50need to get your men to bind you to the
12:52mast and then put wax in your ears and
12:55then uh put sorry, put wax in their ears
12:57and you don't have wax in your ears.
12:59You're going to be you're going to be
13:00hearing everything that they're saying.
13:02You're going to be the only one
13:03essentially who is going to hear the
13:04song of the sirens and live to tell the
13:06tale.
13:06>> And the sirens, the later ideas, you
13:08know, they're beautiful women, but isn't
13:10it in the original they're they're bird
13:12women or something like that?
13:13>> Yeah, they're sort of bird women. So
13:14they're sort of edging into this world
13:16of monsters that we're seeing with Zilla
13:18and Carib Caribus as well. So yeah,
13:20absolutely a kind of monstrosity to
13:22them. Um and we know that their voices
13:24are very sed seductive. So what I find
13:26fascinating is well what is it that a
13:28siren would sing that would be the thing
13:30that would cause a man to kind of wreck
13:31his ship on the rocks. And what it is is
13:34it is his epic.
13:37So what the sirens do is they basically
13:39present a hero with what he wants above
13:41all which is to be sung of to be
13:43immortalized in song and therefore to be
13:45remembered. Um and so they basically
13:47what's it's really beautiful they
13:49basically sing of Adysius the sacker of
13:51cities. They give him epithets like
13:53epithets that Achilles gets you know
13:54sort of a hero among heroes. Um and that
13:58is the thing that is so tantalizing for
13:59a hero to hear. They don't call him Poly
14:01Tropos, which is what he's described as
14:03at the beginning, which is kind of a a
14:05complicated figure, is it?
14:06>> Yeah. So, that's Emily Wilson's
14:07translation [laughter] is complicated.
14:09Yeah. Yeah. Poly tropos, which is a
14:10fantastic translation. Um, but yes,
14:13complex, complicated. That's exactly
14:14what he is. But they call him a sacker
14:16of cities.
14:16>> The sirens are much more flattering to
14:17him and what he wants to hear.
14:19>> Well, then they turn him into the hero
14:20that he kind of wants to be because at
14:22this point he's very anxious about what
14:24his legacy is going to be. He's not back
14:26in Ithaca yet. Um, he hasn't secured his
14:28legacy as king. Um, so I think, you
14:31know, the fact that you hear your own
14:32epic being sung to him is ultimately
14:34tantalizing.
14:35>> This is the more narcissistic side of
14:36Adysius coming out, though, right? He's
14:38willing to, yes, okay, his men have got
14:40the wax in their ears, so they can't
14:41hear, but he's still willing to steer
14:42their ship very near this very dangerous
14:45these dangerous mythical creatures on
14:46the way to to satate his own desire for
14:49glory.
14:50>> Absolutely. And like, let's not kind of
14:52beat around the bush. It's also other
14:53men who have also done that, right?
14:54Because they're all wrecked there as
14:55well.
14:56He's part of a kind of um a group of men
15:00who to whom this is deeply alluring.
15:02>> And geographically speaking, I said we
15:04we visit this once in a while. This is
15:07very much associated with the the
15:08coastline of Italy with the terraneian
15:10sea, isn't it?
15:11>> Yeah, absolutely. So there are sort of
15:14legends that associate Cersei with
15:16Italy. Um so there is um a mountain
15:18there called Monte Chel which is still
15:21kind of in its name uh connected to
15:23Cersei. Um and then obviously yes the
15:25terrinian sea and then the straits
15:26between Sicily and Italy often sort of
15:29thought of as where maybe Sila and
15:30Caribis might have been imagined as.
15:32>> I love that. I love that because um
15:33recently I went to Pestum. I don't know
15:35if you've ever been to
15:36>> I have. Oh,
15:37>> the very massive gorgeous temples,
15:38>> Doric temples, you know, there. Um, but
15:41one of the like the association there,
15:43you know, first of all, the ancient
15:45Greeks in southern Italy, big presence
15:46there and their beliefs and one of the
15:49gates in the big walls that surround
15:52Pest and today is called the Porter
15:54Desera. Um, and supposedly it's very
15:57difficult to see today, but right at the
15:59top of that gate there's a little relief
16:01which supposedly shows a siren. So that
16:04kind of association well at least the
16:06ancient Greeks who lived there probably
16:08was a strong thinking that the sirens
16:10lived not too far away from where we
16:11were. But once again I just wanted to
16:13bring that in because it's that that
16:14geography link to yes it's mythological
16:17but it's what they thought
16:18>> but also exactly later people believing
16:20that that was part of the map of where
16:22they lived and that they thought that
16:23that was so important that they would
16:25incorporate that in kind of their daily
16:26life.
16:27>> Absolutely. Well let's get towards the
16:29straight. So the straight of Msina. Um,
16:32and this is supposedly where Adysius has
16:35that choice.
16:36>> Exactly. This is the the fatal choice
16:38that Cersei gives him.
16:39>> And Skiller or Crypt. And there's no way
16:41round. He has to choose one or the
16:42other.
16:43>> He has to choose. Yeah. Absolutely.
16:44Which is a kind of, you know, beautiful
16:46kind of moment of like, you know, really
16:48pinning the hero down and being like,
16:50what are you going to do in this
16:51situation? And yes. So he he takes
16:53Cersei's advice and he he goes past
16:55Silla and it is this kind of horrible
16:57moment of kind of rowing past that cave
16:59as fast as you can. The monster kind of
17:02snatching out um gobbling up some of his
17:04men. It's exactly what we see saw
17:06happening with the Cyclops when he lost
17:08some of his men being eaten by the
17:09Cyclops. So this is kind of in some
17:11sense a kind of reiteration of something
17:13that's happened to the crew before.
17:14>> And is it this idea of like a
17:15threeheaded monster? Is it three heads
17:17or just one head? So it's multiple heads
17:20and and the barking sounds like a dog is
17:23what Homer says.
17:24>> So I think of Fluffy from Harry Potter
17:25and the Stone, you know. Yeah. If that
17:28floats your boat, Vicious Fluffy.
17:29Exactly. [laughter] Exactly.
17:30>> Um and I guess the idea that it portrays
17:33is those heads kind of going down again
17:35and again on the ships as it's going
17:37through the
17:37>> Exactly. Which is why they've got to row
17:39as fast as they can to get through.
17:41>> Okay. And so they lose quite a few men.
17:45>> Yeah. So he loses six men on his way
17:48through. Yeah. Um, and at this point,
17:50I'm pretty sure he's only down to one
17:51ship left, uh, of the ships that he had.
17:54So, you know, we're already quite low on
17:55men. Um, and that's kind of the point at
17:57which they land kind of on their final
17:59stop, which is the island of Trinacia,
18:01um, and the cattle of the sun.
18:03>> And that's interesting. Also, as a
18:04throwback to our first episode, you
18:06mentioned the first things that he does
18:07after leaving Troy is sack a few cities,
18:10take, you know, take women as war booty
18:14quite frankly, as captives and the like.
18:16So you have to imagine at the beginning
18:17you know there are several boats full of
18:19men but also captives as well.
18:21>> Yeah. Yeah.
18:22>> All of them apart from one ship have
18:24been lost by this stage in the journey.
18:26>> Absolutely. That's exactly right. And
18:28also you know these are if we think
18:30about the men the men who have come from
18:31Ithaca these are men whose mothers whose
18:34sisters whose wives sent them off to war
18:36and have been waiting for 20 years for
18:38them to come home. And then Adysius
18:40basically kind of does a trade with
18:42Silla and is like, "Well, I need to get
18:43through here to get to Ithaca and you
18:45know, these are the men I'm going to
18:46lose." So, you've got to think about
18:47what the people of Ithaca are going to
18:49think when Adysius uh returns. And this
18:51is why it's so dangerous for him to
18:53return to Ithaca, why he takes so long
18:55to kind of return and make sure that
18:57everyone's on his side when he does kind
18:58of all of that disguise. It's because he
19:00has lost all of these people.
19:02>> Fair enough. So, for those on that one
19:05ship who have survived, Skila, is it
19:07Skilla or Skiler? either whichever you
19:09prefer. It's Yeah, it's funny how it's
19:11spelled. Yeah. Yeah.
19:12>> Scooter. Where do they end up next?
19:14>> Yeah. So, the next and kind of final
19:16stop which Cersei has told them about is
19:18the island of the sun god's cattle uh
19:21called Thrinakia. Um and basically
19:23Cersei has told uh Adysius that the kind
19:26of one and only thing that they need to
19:28make sure not to do is uh not to eat the
19:30castle of the sun god.
19:32>> And the sun god is helios not Apollo or
19:34>> that is right. So basically the kind of
19:36there are old gods of the kind of the
19:38what we call the titans the kind of the
19:39early order of gods and Helios is one of
19:41those. Apollo then later as a kind of
19:44new god becomes kind of the sun god but
19:46Helios is the old sun god. Um yes so
19:48these are his his kind of special cattle
19:50and they're just meant to leave them
19:51alone. Now what's really interesting and
19:53we didn't talk about this earlier but in
19:55one episode of the Odyssey as he's
19:57relating his travels earlier um Adysius
19:59talks about an island that he went to
20:01the island of Eololis uh the king of the
20:03winds. Um and he essentially is the
20:05person who governs the north wind, west
20:07wind, south wind, east. He is the one
20:09who can make sure you get home.
20:10>> A big deal for sailor.
20:12>> A big deal for someone like Adysius. And
20:14of course in that episode uh he very
20:16kindly kind of makes sure that Adysius
20:18has exactly the wind that he needs. And
20:20he leaves that out. And the others he
20:22pops them in a bag, ties up the bag, and
20:24tells Adysius not to undo the bag. And
20:27Adysius guarding that bag on his ship
20:29falls asleep. And of course, what do his
20:31crew do? They think it's full of
20:32treasure. They open the bag and Adysius
20:35gets blown all the way back to the
20:37island of the winds. So, this is a very
20:40similar situation where we've got this
20:42moment where, okay, the hero has been
20:43told he can't do this. If he does this,
20:45it's going to be ruin. And what do the
20:47crew do? Of course, they do it anyway.
20:49>> So, does this reflect badly on Adysius
20:51that he can't control his men, or is
20:53this very much a thing that Adysius did
20:56all that he could, but he couldn't
20:58control his men?
21:00>> I think at this point it is more the
21:01latter. I think it's more that um you
21:04know they are kind of consigning
21:05themselves to their fate. Um you know
21:07that he does kind of try to warn them uh
21:09this has already been said and kind of
21:11outlined to them as something that will
21:13be really fatal if they do it and uh
21:15they just kind of go ahead and do it. So
21:17I think at this point we are seeing a
21:18leader who is uh really kind of battling
21:20to get his his crew home and just he
21:22just can't resist uh kind of the cruel
21:24workings of fate essentially.
21:26>> So he sees them cooking up the cattle.
21:28>> Yeah. Um,
21:29>> and it's this horrible scene where as
21:30they cook, they sort of make this these
21:32sort of mooing sounds as they're being
21:33cooked. It's it's really really kind of
21:35disturbing.
21:36>> And uh, does Helios come with a
21:39vengeance right there and then whilst
21:40they're still on shore? I mean, how does
21:43that divine punishment, that divine
21:45vengeance that, let's be honest, we know
21:47is coming?
21:48>> How is it delivered?
21:49>> Yeah. Well, it's delivered as it often
21:50is in a storm. It's a storm. Yeah. So,
21:52you know, blown off uh the the island
21:54again, you know, can't get back home.
21:56everyone wrecked um apart from Adysius.
21:59Um and uh yeah, as he's in that storm,
22:01he gets blown back into uh Siller and
22:04Corbdis. And at this point, he goes back
22:05to Kuribdus.
22:06>> He's all by himself. He's hanging over
22:08the whirlpool, holding onto a fig tree
22:10that that is kind of extending over the
22:12whirlpool and manages to get himself
22:14just clam out of that, holds onto a bit
22:16of driftwood. And that is the point at
22:18which he washes up on Calypso's island.
22:20>> And how is he described as he holds on
22:22to that bit of
22:23>> So when he's holding on, he's described
22:24as holding on like a bat. like a bat. I
22:26had no idea about this until you
22:27mentioned just before we started
22:29recording, but that is a funny uh
22:31simile.
22:32>> Oh, I love it because I just feel like
22:33it's that kind of sense of just kind of
22:34clinging with your claws to the branch
22:36and sort of maybe also that sense of
22:38maybe being sort of slightly sort of
22:39topsyturvy upside down and just sort of
22:41um but also, you know, that sort of
22:43sense of the creature of the night. So,
22:44I think there's a lot of sort of
22:45darkness to this this episode in
22:47Adysius's life where he doesn't know um
22:50whether he's going to live or die. And
22:51in fact, if we're thinking about bats
22:52when the suitors way way way at the end
22:55of the Odyssey are described as being
22:57killed, they go to the underworld
22:59squeaking like bats. So we've got Bats
23:02as kind of here as sort of maybe Adysius
23:04is quite close to getting killed and
23:06it's just he just gets out of it. He
23:08gets on to Calypso's island and of
23:09course that is actually where we start
23:11the Odyssey. We start the Odyssey right
23:13in the middle of the action. Um the the
23:15kind of term we use for this is in
23:16Medias rays. In the middle of the action
23:18we start on Calypso's island. So that
23:21story, that kind of narration that
23:22Adysius has given us of his travels, it
23:24ends with a point that we started the
23:26Odyssey
23:26>> and and and just as you said there, so
23:29actually what we've been talking about
23:31with the Cyclops and Cersei in the last
23:33episode with the sirens, Silla and
23:34Kibdus and the Cattle in this episode,
23:37all of that in the story is coming from
23:39Adysius's mouth that he is retelling to
23:41a king and queen and a princess that
23:44he's met along the way.
23:46Is it now when we get to Calypso's
23:48island that it goes out of that?
23:51>> Exactly. We switch out and he says,
23:52"Right, you know, I'm going to finish my
23:54story here." And that's the point where
23:56we then kind of move from Aditius's
23:58narration of his adventures into, "Okay,
24:00well, what happens next?" We are now
24:01sitting on the island of the Fiats. We
24:04are, you know, as close as we think we
24:06can get to getting back to Ithaca. They
24:08have very good ships. We know this.
24:09We've been told this. Um, and all he
24:11needs from them is a ship. And if they
24:13give that then Ithaca might once again
24:15be within sight.
24:16>> I think let's briefly recap Calypso
24:18because she's such an amazing figure
24:19that we should um because does it also
24:21feel that that part of the story when
24:24he's lost all of his crew when he's been
24:26hanging like a bat when he's washed up,
24:28no ship, nothing left on the island. Is
24:31it fair to say that this is the lowest
24:33point for Adysius?
24:35>> I mean, there have been many low points.
24:36>> I know. I know. That's why I say the the
24:37lowest maybe,
24:38>> but I think you're right that it's the
24:40lowest um because he's lost his crew.
24:42And you know, that's why I would say,
24:44you know, we talked about the island of
24:45the winds where that must have felt so
24:47difficult like the fact that they were
24:48actually within sight of Ithaca.
24:49>> Oh, they could see they could see it.
24:51>> Um and that's when the men opened the
24:53bag of the wind. So, you know, there
24:54have been moments of real kind of
24:55tragedy, but I think here because he's
24:57lost all of his men and he's kind of
24:59really failed in giving them that
25:00homecoming and he's no closer to getting
25:02home himself. I think yeah, there is
25:04probably a real desperation there. And
25:05it's it's why kind of as the Odyssey
25:07opens um when we first see him on on
25:09Calypso's island, we see him sitting on
25:11the shore and weeping and this really
25:13kind of emotive view of a man who's just
25:15kind of longing to get home.
25:17>> And so enter Calypso. Who is Calypso?
25:19And what does she do with Adysius when
25:21he ends up stranded on her island?
25:23>> Well, so she's a nymph. Uh she is, you
25:26know, a goddess, immortal goddess. She
25:28lives alone on this island called Aija.
25:31Um and she essentially kind of brings
25:33him in. uh she gives him kind of food
25:35and drink uh as you would to kind of a
25:37guest uh but they also sleep together uh
25:39and they end up kind of uh spending
25:42seven years together uh of his voyage of
25:44his return. So a long long time that
25:46Adysius is there. Now Adysius's version
25:49and I feel like you know it's important
25:51we label it Adysius's version because we
25:52get a lot of this from Adysius is that
25:55she has been keeping him captive and
25:56that he hasn't been able to leave uh
25:58because he didn't have the tools that he
26:00needed to make a raft. He didn't have a
26:02sale. Um, and it is only when after that
26:05seven-year period, Hermes then comes
26:07down from Zeus, uh, which is where we
26:09start the Odyssey. It's only then that
26:11Adysius is allowed to get free
26:13>> because this is, of course, this is post
26:15the event that's made him realize that
26:17he needs to get home. And we covered in
26:19the last episode how the first time he
26:20visits Cersei, it's almost like he
26:21forgets and he he doesn't have that
26:23purpose yet because he hasn't visually
26:28yet. Yes, fair enough. if it is
26:30Adysius's version, but could there be
26:32more truth or at least belief behind the
26:34story that like he did want to get off
26:36the island, he simply just couldn't for
26:38seven whole years?
26:38>> Yeah, I mean there is definitely kind of
26:40a sense of that kind of that desperation
26:42in that like you know if you're in the
26:43middle of the Mediterranean Sea on an
26:45island and you don't have the means to
26:47build a boat like it is really really
26:48hard to get off. Um at the same time you
26:51know we also see Calypso in the Odyssey
26:53professing kind of the fact that she
26:55would love for Adysius to stay and that
26:57she would make him immortal if he would
26:58stay with her. she obviously also has a
27:00vested interest in this. So, so yes, I
27:02think we can kind of see Adysius as
27:04someone who um you know, really was kind
27:06of wanting to get off. On the other
27:08hand, you know, kind of you know, he
27:09hasn't seven years of of sex with
27:11Calypso, you know, [laughter] I mean, he
27:13hasn't struggled that hard.
27:14>> It's not been too bad, has it? So, in
27:16regards to years wise, I mean, how many
27:18years have we now covered from
27:21leaving Ithaca to go for the Trojan War?
27:24That's 10 years.
27:24>> Yeah, we got 10 years there. Yeah. and
27:26then up to him now reaching the island
27:28of the F the Fishians, the Fishians or
27:31however you say it after he leaves
27:32Calypso's island. How many more years
27:34have we covered since then?
27:35>> Um so we basically have got um seven
27:37years with Calypso. We've got one year
27:39with Cersei uh that he's done on the way
27:41and then kind of the rest of it is
27:42probably puzzled together from all of
27:44those different stop offs that he does
27:45on his way. And by the time we're kind
27:47of in the 20th year, that's the point at
27:49which he then kind of finally gets back
27:51to Ithaca.
27:52>> And is this the next part of the story?
27:54So
27:55>> yeah,
27:55>> he's done his retelling to this king
27:57who's given them and the queen who, as
28:00you said, actually seems to be making
28:01them all the decisions
28:03>> and now he has the a fresh ship,
28:06>> the transport to finally get back home.
28:08The return.
28:10>> Yeah, the return is about to happen. And
28:11that's why, you know, the the fations
28:13are so important to him because they are
28:15the moment where he suddenly gets this
28:18ship that is going to take him back to
28:19Ithaca. And not just that, but these are
28:21kind of magic ships because they can
28:24move by themselves. Um, and they go, the
28:26poet says, as swift as a thought. So,
28:29the kind of idea is you just kind of
28:30think where you want to go and they'll
28:31they'll just take you there. So, real
28:33kind of proper magic ships. Um, and he
28:34falls asleep. Of course, he kind of
28:36falls asleep. You're in this kind of
28:37moment where you're transitioning
28:38between the fantasy world and then the
28:40world of Ithaca. And when he wakes up,
28:42they've put him on the shore of Ithaca.
28:45They've put all of his treasure in a
28:46cave and a mist has kind of been cast
28:49over the land. And at first he's not
28:50really sure where he's got to and he
28:51thinks, "Oh my gosh, I maybe I've gone
28:53to a different island. You know, I'm I'm
28:55not back in my island, Ithaca." And it's
28:58kind of a moment of of real worry for
28:59him.
28:59>> But of course, it's not the end of the
29:01story. Um, and the gods will still play
29:03a big role in what will happen next.
29:05First off, I want to ask about Poseidon,
29:08>> god of the sea, because he's not best
29:10pleased with Adysius since killing his
29:11is it his son Polyphimas?
29:13>> That's right. Yeah.
29:14>> Yeah. So So he's been obviously God of
29:16the Sea, making sure he can't get home.
29:18>> Yeah. when he finds out that Adysius has
29:20been helped has actually got home. Is he
29:22still angry with Adysius?
29:24>> He is very angry. Um yes. So Poseidon
29:26has a long grudge against Adysius
29:28because of the blinding of his son, the
29:31Cyclops Polyphimmas. Um and of course
29:33the Cyclops cursed Adysius. So Poseidon
29:36takes this very seriously. The fact that
29:38the Fiatans have done this is seen as a
29:40massive insult to him. Um now Adysius at
29:43this point is in fact, although he
29:45doesn't know it, safely back on Ithaca.
29:47Um, and at this point, Poseidon, I
29:48think, as god of the sea, realizes
29:50that's kind of the end of his uh,
29:52jurisdiction. But what he does do is he
29:54takes out his anger against the Fatians
29:57who helped Adysius. And so, when their
29:59ship gets back into uh, the harbor of
30:01the Fiats, it's extraordinary moment
30:04where he sort of slams his hand against
30:06the side of the ship and it gets turned
30:07to stone.
30:08>> Gosh. And everyone on board gets turned
30:11to stone.
30:12>> Yeah. And it's it's a really kind of
30:13horrible moment of basically kind of him
30:15like interdicting this seafaring nation
30:18and just sort of but but what's also fun
30:19to go back to kind of what you were
30:21saying about where real places might be.
30:23Uh there are many rocks uh kind of in
30:26the the islands around that kind of that
30:28area particularly Corfu uh that kind of
30:30maybe look like ships and that people
30:32have thought well maybe that is the the
30:34kind of rock that people thought was a
30:35ship turned into stone from the Okay. So
30:39the key episodes have been
30:41from where we start. So Underworld,
30:44Cersei, Sirens, Skiller and Cryptus,
30:47Calypso,
30:48>> Fiats,
30:49>> Fiatians, Ithaca.
30:51>> That's right. So we are finally now,
30:53thanks to the magic ships, we are
30:55finally on Ithaca. Um, and we're
30:57[clears throat] kind of just about past
30:58the kind of halfway point of the
31:00narrative. So, you know, as we said,
31:01we've got still kind of a good 12 or so
31:04books um to to get us into that point
31:06where Adysius feels like he can kind of
31:09be certain enough that he can kind of
31:10start to stage the comeback as it were,
31:13but at this point, he's really got to
31:14start gathering his allies around him.
31:16>> And which divine allies does he have?
31:19Not just in the mortal realm.
31:20>> Yeah. Well, the first one is a really
31:22important divine ally because you've got
31:24to get the gods on your side if you're
31:25in the ancient world. And the first one
31:26is Athena.
31:27>> It's Athena. Yeah. And so Athena, she's
31:29she's sort of been the patron of Adysius
31:31the whole way through. We saw her coming
31:33into Olympus right at the beginning and
31:35making sure that he got freed from
31:36Calypso's island. And it is her now in
31:39this second half of the narrative who
31:41comes to Adysius personally um and
31:43basically reveals herself to him,
31:45reveals the island. She lifts the mist
31:47off in a kind of beautiful moment of
31:49revelation. And Adysius suddenly sees
31:51that he is back on his homeland of
31:53Ithaca again. So he sees and from then
31:55on as she knows that Adysius still has
31:57got a lot to do because he's returning
31:59on his own.
32:00>> Yeah.
32:01>> They're conversing together as well.
32:02That's another key part of the story. So
32:04what do they decide is the next step for
32:05Adysius?
32:06>> Well, they basically decide that he
32:08needs to approach this in stages. So
32:10it's really important that he doesn't
32:12kind of just storm into the palace say,
32:14you know, I'm here, I'm home, I'm king,
32:15I'm back.
32:16>> Exactly. Because, you know, would people
32:18believe him? It's been a long time. He's
32:20obviously changed. Um, there's also kind
32:22of the fact of all of the people that
32:24he's lost on the way. Uh, there's the
32:25fact he doesn't even know who is loyal
32:27to him anymore after 20 years. Do they
32:29all believe he's dead? Is Penelopey even
32:31loyal anymore? So, he's got to kind of
32:33approach this in stages and gather his
32:34allies around him. So, what Athena does
32:36is a really important moment of kind of
32:38uh the narrative is that she transforms
32:41him so that he looks like a beggar, like
32:42an old homeless kind of poor man. And
32:46that's really important for him because
32:47that kind of changes his status. It
32:49makes him kind of at the lowest level of
32:51the social hierarchy and that's what
32:53will slowly allow him to then climb his
32:55way back up to becoming king again.
32:57>> So he's been transformed into a beggar
32:59and then he starts walking towards the
33:02palace itself. I mean who does he meet
33:04along the way?
33:05>> Yeah. So on his way he meets a really
33:06key figure, Umus.
33:08>> Um yes.
33:09>> And um is the swine herd. So he's
33:11looking after the palace's pigs.
33:13[snorts] Um he is an enslaved person. So
33:16like very kind of faithful to Adysius,
33:18faithful to the palace. Um and Adysius
33:21knows that, but he's obviously got to
33:22kind of test his loyalty. So coming in
33:24as an old uh beggar, uh he basically
33:27asks for his hospitality. And um who's,
33:29you know, one of the good guys, makes
33:30sure that he shows him good hospitality
33:32and gives him a nice little meal of some
33:34some piglets.
33:35>> And how yes, how does that interaction
33:36play out? What does Adysius ask him to
33:38get a a sense of the lie of the land as
33:40it is?
33:40>> Yeah. Well, so he wants to first of all
33:42find out what's happening up at the
33:43palace. So he wants to know kind of
33:45what's the situation with the suitors,
33:46what's the situation with Tmicus, with
33:48Adysius's son, with Penelopey. Um, and
33:51he also kind of sets up this uh false
33:53identity as it were of his his past,
33:56which is one of what we call these
33:57[ __ ] tales and tales.
33:59>> Cret and Tales. Yeah. So each of these,
34:01there are three different times where he
34:03pretends to be somebody from Cree. The
34:05first time he's done it is to Athena,
34:07uh, because he wasn't quite sure who she
34:08was at first. So he he said one of these
34:10little lies where he pretends that he's
34:12got this background um uh with Cree the
34:14second time to um and then he does
34:16another one later on to Penelopey. Now
34:18meanwhile Athena is helping with Adysius
34:20but in the last chap we also covered how
34:23there's also this adventure of Adysius's
34:25son Tmicus. Yeah he's gone to find out
34:27more about what's happened to his dad
34:29visited other kind of key figures of the
34:31Trojan War who have made it home like
34:33Neestor and Menaus king of Sparta and so
34:35on. But for a thing, is Tmicus on Ithaca
34:39at that time or does he need to get back
34:40to Ithaca? So
34:41>> yeah, he needs to get back and there's a
34:43serious kind of jeopardy here because
34:45Tmicus is obviously quite seriously
34:47hated by the suitors who want Penelope's
34:50hand and quite clearly want him out of
34:52the way because he's a potential heir
34:54once he kind of becomes a man. So uh
34:57what's happened is he uh is now he
34:59started off with Pilos. then went to
35:01Sparta. Um, and on his way back, they
35:03are very much planning to ambush him.
35:06Um, and so he is in serious kind of
35:08danger at at this at this point in terms
35:10of the ambush, but at the point where
35:11Adysius has landed on Ithaca, he is
35:13still kind of about to make his way
35:15back. So again, we've got these two
35:16these father and son stories happening
35:18in parallel.
35:19>> Is there a moment where they both
35:20reunite?
35:21>> They do. So once Tmicus manages to get
35:24through that ambush, he he survives.
35:25He's okay. um he first goes to Umus's
35:28hut and who should be visiting there but
35:31the old beggar. So Adysius at this point
35:33is ineous's hut at Tmkus comes in and
35:36we've got this amazing moment where the
35:38father for the first time in 20 years
35:40gazes on his son again um and he does
35:42reveal himself to Tmicus at this point
35:44make sure that he's got Tmicus on side.
35:46He's now sort of slowly building up his
35:49allies.
35:49>> And from there, you know, from that
35:51lowly swine herds hut, is that where
35:55they start to to plan what they're going
35:58to do?
35:58>> This is where the coup begins.
35:59>> The coup. And it's funny that you say a
36:01coup because this is
36:03>> this is how it's portrayed. I don't
36:05think really in the late Bronze Age, uh,
36:07a kingdom or one of these states would
36:08have been happy for a kingdom to be away
36:10for 20 years. But in this he is still
36:12the rightful king and it's a coup to try
36:15and retake control of his palace.
36:17>> Yeah.
36:18>> From the main enemy who are who we
36:19should introduce now, the suitors.
36:21>> Absolutely. And certainly in Adysius's
36:23mind, it's his rightful kingdom. Right.
36:25We could argue about whether actually
36:27having been absent for 20 years, it is
36:29anymore. But uh but in his mind, it
36:31certainly is. So yeah, what we've got is
36:33this kind of major thorn in Adysius's
36:36side, which are uh these these hundred
36:38or so men who are kind of sitting in his
36:41palace, uh eating all of his food, um
36:43you know, kind of get making their way
36:45through all of his livestock,
36:46impoverishing the palace, uh drinking
36:49his wine, uh behaving really really
36:51badly and lavishly, um and also kind of
36:54uh trying to force Penelopey, his wife,
36:56to basically admit that Adysius has died
36:58and that she's going to take a new
37:00husband and that that husband will be
37:01the king of Ithaca. So for Odysius, this
37:03is a massive threat and he's got to make
37:05sure that he gets there in time before
37:07Penelope basically gives up the ghost
37:09and says, "Okay, I'm going to choose one
37:10of you."
37:11>> Emily, we're getting towards the end
37:13now, the final big climax, the final big
37:15showdown. And I feel before we get to
37:18that, we have kind of mentioned the
37:20suitors as the key enemy for Adysius on
37:24his homecoming, but do we hear much
37:26about who they actually are? Do they get
37:28a lot of character development in the in
37:31the Odyssey?
37:32>> Yeah. Well, we do get some of them who
37:34kind of really stick out and some of
37:35them are given sort of characterization.
37:37So, yes, there are a lot of them, but um
37:39one of them above all I think probably
37:40is the leader and that's antinuous.
37:42>> Antinuous.
37:43>> Yeah. And that's quite fun because his
37:45name means no, which is the nose bit at
37:48the end. That means thought or mind and
37:50anti means against. So, he's a sort of
37:53plotter against. He's someone who can
37:55think in response and against your every
37:57move. And that's obviously exactly what
37:59someone like Adysius is going to be
38:01extremely threatened by because he's a
38:02bit cunning and crafty. Um so Antinuis
38:05and all of the other men, they are a
38:07real threat to Adysius. Um and that is
38:09basically what he as he's gathering
38:10these various different allies and
38:12factions. He's working out who is
38:14faithful to him and who is faithful to
38:16the suitors.
38:17>> Interesting. And is Antinuous, can you
38:19see that he's kind of he's scheming at
38:21the same time? Jeremy mentioned that
38:22attempt to ambush Tmicus as well. So
38:25it's not very much he's just lousing
38:28about in the palace all the time. He's
38:30also very much thinking about how to
38:32make the next move.
38:33>> Absolutely. And the intimidation of
38:35Tmicus at the beginning and then the
38:36outright kind of attempt to to kill him
38:38is very much a part of this kind of
38:40escalation that the suitors are engaging
38:42in. Of course, that will end in the fact
38:44that Penelopey does ultimately decide
38:46that she's going to have a marriage
38:47contest. So the suitors at that point
38:48think they've really, you know, their
38:50their tactics have worked. They've been
38:52kind of scaling up and they're about to
38:53marry Penelopey in their minds.
38:55>> And how had Penelopey been keeping off
38:58the [snorts] suitors up to that point?
39:00>> Yeah. Well, this is the famous trick
39:01that Penelopey engages in. And we've
39:03been talking a lot about kind of the
39:05cunning of Adysius. But I think it's
39:06important that we also recognize and
39:08acknowledge the immense cunning of
39:10Penelopey um who is in many ways kind of
39:12a foil for Adysius in terms of kind of
39:14just how smart she is and how she's able
39:16to kind of outwit the suitors. So, um,
39:19we learn multiple times through the poem
39:21that Penelopey has come up with this
39:23amazing ruse in order to kind of fend
39:26off the suitors because, you know, we're
39:27looking at a lot of years that she's had
39:30to kind of keep them at bay. And, uh,
39:32for for multiple years, one of the
39:33things that she said she would do was
39:35that when she had finished weaving this
39:37funeral shroud for Leertes, that that's
39:39Adysius's father, then at that point she
39:42would marry a suitor. So, she's given
39:44them an end point. However, what they
39:46don't know, of course, is that every
39:47night she is unweaving whatever she has
39:50woven during the day. And in so doing,
39:52for about four years, she manages to
39:54fend off the suitors. Um, now it sounds,
39:57I think, uh, for a modern audience like,
39:59well, why would they have believed that
40:00she would take four years to just kind
40:02of weave a funeral shroud, but in fact,
40:04these could have been very kind of
40:05intricate, complex garments. They could
40:07have had figurative scenes on them. So,
40:09in fact, if Penelopey was taking a lot
40:11of time, I think that's probably not
40:12something that would have surprised
40:13them. Of course, ultimately they do find
40:15out.
40:15>> They find out, do they? How do they
40:17>> do find out? Well, it's one of the
40:18enslaved women, in fact, who who kind of
40:20uh uh passes the message on.
40:22>> And these enslaved women in the palace,
40:25are they very much portrayed as being in
40:27the team of the suitors? I mean, what do
40:30we know? Because, you know, whether it's
40:32sexual assault or are they being very
40:34much complicit with the suitors? Yeah, I
40:36mean with the enslaved women, I think
40:38it's really difficult because in the way
40:40that they are being conceived of at the
40:42time in this poetry, they are definitely
40:45being seen of as kind of the property of
40:47Adysius. And so for him, that's the real
40:50issue is that when the suitors have kind
40:52of committed sexual assault against
40:54these women, they've also kind of
40:55assaulted his property. And for him,
40:57that's a real issue. So, in Adysius's
40:59mind, they are absolutely team suitors
41:02because at that point, they've kind of
41:04gone over to that side. In terms of what
41:06they were doing and what they thought,
41:08um, I think that's a lot harder to say.
41:10Um, whether they're given any agency in
41:12that, I I very much doubt. Um, there is
41:14one woman who's called Meantho who is
41:17very much painted as kind of a woman who
41:19has gone over to the side of the
41:21suitors. Uh, but of course, again, in
41:23part that's because Adysius is very much
41:25thinking that way. Good to cover the
41:26suitors in a bit more depth as we have
41:28now to kind of understand what Adysius
41:30is arriving into. So, so can you paint
41:34that scene for us now? So, he's got
41:35Tmicus by his side, Umus as well. Are
41:39there any other allies with him as he
41:41enters the palace? What do we know about
41:42this particular part?
41:43>> So, there's another ally, a goat herd
41:46called, I believe, Feloius, um, who
41:48joins the crew on the way. Uh, and then
41:51you've got the the good goat herd and
41:52the bad goat herd. bad goat herd is
41:54Meanthus who we already measured
41:56measured up. Um so we've got you know
41:58this sort of growing posy around Adysius
42:00as he's going up to the palace. Um and
42:02then once he reaches the palace uh there
42:04he's kind of disguised as a beggar. He
42:06comes in he is very badly treated by the
42:08suitors uh who are not pleased to see an
42:10old beggar kicking around the palace. In
42:12fact they already have an old beggar at
42:14the palace who also doesn't want to have
42:15a rival. And so they get into a bit of a
42:17scuffle.
42:18>> And so he arrives in the palace as an
42:20old beggar. For what purpose? Because
42:23otherwise you're thinking, well, why
42:25Yeah. If you're in the eyes of the
42:26suitors, why has this old beggar just
42:28decided been welcomed into this palace?
42:30>> Yeah. Well, again, what he's doing is
42:31he's sort of closing the circle of where
42:34he's trying to get to, which is
42:35ultimately getting into the palace and
42:37getting to Penelope. So, he's just
42:39inching closer and closer to his goal.
42:41Um, it is obviously quite kind of
42:43tactically quite dangerous because he is
42:45being seen as kind of the very bottom
42:46rung of of society. Uh, he gets things
42:49thrown at him. uh as I say he ends up
42:51kind of having this this scuffle with
42:52with the other beggar whose name is OS.
42:54Uh so it's all not very dignified uh for
42:57Adysius. Uh but what kind of ends up
42:59happening is that then uh you know they
43:02step in and say well this isn't okay and
43:04he ends up being being drawn into that
43:06circle that inner circle of the Ithacan
43:08palace and that is the point where then
43:10uh Penelopey orders that he has a bath
43:13by Uriclair the old nursemaid.
43:15>> And is this where he is recognized? This
43:18is where he's recognized and this is a
43:20moment which is so fascinating because
43:22he is running out of control in terms of
43:24his ability to control the recognition
43:27because all of the other ones he was the
43:29one who said you know I'm Adysius
43:30revealing himself but at this point
43:32where he has a foot bath and Uracleair
43:35the old enslaved nurse um washes his
43:38feet and she sees a scar on his leg that
43:42she recognizes from the young Adysius
43:44that he had in a boar hunting accident
43:46when he was a and she suddenly realizes
43:48this is her old master.
43:50>> So does Uracle is she team Adysius or
43:52team suitors? Does she give him up?
43:54>> She's absolutely team Adysius. I mean
43:57she basically both breastfed Adysius and
44:00she breastfed Tmicus. So she's been the
44:02wet nurse for both of them the men in
44:04the family. So she is she is born and
44:06bred absolutely in that family. Um she
44:08is an enslaved person within the family.
44:10But we're we're given to understand that
44:12she is very much kind of a a
44:13well-treated enslaved woman within
44:15within Adysius's household and she
44:17absolutely she is overjoyed that Adysius
44:19has come home. Um however she kind of
44:22wants to shout it out. She's really
44:23really excited about this and Adysius is
44:26very keen that she doesn't give the game
44:28away and so he really is quite kind of
44:29stern with her and you know old woman
44:31you know you cannot give this up. You
44:33cannot tell anybody. So urlair is not
44:36even allowed to tell Penelopey at this
44:37point that Adysius is home. But she has
44:39joined the team Adysius alongside the
44:41swine um absolutely uh Felotius.
44:44Exactly. Tmicus so that the allies are
44:46growing. Um so does Adysius have a name
44:49that he says does he call himself
44:52anything as he's the beggar or does
44:53anyone even ask him his name?
44:55>> So he has multiple different stories and
44:56this is what we heard with the Cretton
44:58tales. So these are all of his sort of
45:00little cretton stories. uh in some of
45:02them uh he is Cret and in others he's
45:04blown off course and lands on Cree and
45:06so he has a different shifting identity
45:09each time which is very Odyssey and that
45:10his disguise is kind of never really
45:12pinned down it's not like he's going
45:14through this with one name you know he's
45:16different to everybody he talks to and
45:18of course the next person he talks to is
45:19in fact Penelopey
45:20>> Penelopey so this is like this is quite
45:23emotional this is a poignant part of the
45:26story where he in disguise
45:28>> is talking to his wife
45:29>> it really is and it's the first time
45:30that he's really kind of had a chat with
45:32her for 20 years and they're sitting
45:34down talking together. Um, now whether
45:37she recognizes him or not, that's left
45:40open and I think it's part of the beauty
45:41of the poetry that it is left open. It's
45:43up to you essentially to decide whether
45:45you think Penelopey recognized him or
45:47not. Uh, she makes several sort of koi
45:49remarks. One that I particularly like
45:51is, "Oh, Beggar, your hands look so
45:53similar to those of my husband."
45:54[laughter]
45:55Um, so you know, whether she's sort of
45:57indicating that perhaps she does know
45:58that it's him. Uh, she mentions to him
46:00this dream that she's had that she had
46:03some geese, 20 geese that she really,
46:05really loved. And then an eagle came in
46:07and killed them all. And she asks him to
46:09interpret it. And he interprets that
46:11Adysius is coming home soon and he is
46:13going to slaughter the suitors.
46:15>> Oh. And slaughter is there's no it's
46:19been it's been signposted clear that
46:21it's not going to they're not going to
46:22be thrown out. They're going to be
46:24killed right here.
46:25>> Absolutely. And he's told Penelopey that
46:27that's happening
46:27>> and she's quite excited for that.
46:28>> Well, you know, she's she basically says
46:30she wishes that it were true, but she's
46:32not sure if she can believe anymore that
46:34Adysius is going to come home. And now
46:36this is the point where we're sort of
46:37hanging in uncertainty as the audience.
46:40We're not knowing. Well, does Penelopey
46:42actually even realize that she's sitting
46:43right opposite her [laughter] husband?
46:45And at this kind of incredible point of
46:47narrative tension, she decides to set a
46:50contest for her hand in marriage. And
46:52right so but almost so it sounds like
46:56spurred on by this hope that Adysius
46:59will return. It's the creation of this
47:02contest. Why?
47:03>> Well, is it the hope that he will return
47:06or is it the fact that actually she's
47:08been faced up with Adysius giving her
47:10this prediction that Adysius will come
47:11home and she just absolutely just says,
47:13"Well, actually, no. I don't believe it.
47:14It can't happen. Maybe she's completely
47:16given up. We don't know." But it is
47:18rather brilliant that it happens at the
47:20time that Adysius is in the palace and
47:23he is right there ready to go and she
47:24sets up this contest
47:26>> because what is this contest?
47:28>> Well, we've had a lot of debate about
47:29this in scholarship about what exactly
47:31is happening, but what she does is she
47:33sets up a row of axes. Um, and in that
47:36row of axes, there are at some point
47:38some holes. Now, probably this is
47:40somewhere around either the socket or
47:42it's somewhere kind of in the center of
47:44the axe. We don't need to be too
47:45specific about it, but there are some
47:46holes. Um, at the same time, Adysius has
47:49a bow, a really kind of um old heroic
47:52style bow um that only he used to be
47:55able to string. You had to be really
47:57really strong to be able to string these
47:58these old bows. And so she's saying that
48:01whoever will be able to string his bow
48:03and will be able to shoot narrow through
48:05those axes, through those holes, will be
48:07her husband. And so the I guess the um
48:11ambiguity there is whether she's doing
48:14that to find if someone could be as good
48:16as Adysius or is it the hope that
48:19Adysius will be among them a as the
48:22Allah pro aka the prophecy and will be
48:25able to show it through the wielding of
48:27the bow itself.
48:28>> Exactly. So is she replacing him or is
48:30she giving him a chance to prove
48:31himself?
48:31>> Interesting. Okay. And do we get to that
48:34contest straight away or is there more
48:36mingling of old beggar Adysius with the
48:38suitors so we get even more of a bad
48:41vibe of the suitors?
48:42>> Yeah. So there's plenty of kind of bad
48:43vibe of the suitors [laughter] to make
48:44sure that we know that they really
48:46earned it. They deserve what's coming.
48:48Yeah. No, absolutely. Um but yeah, so we
48:50we then sort of move up as the kind of
48:52you know narrative is kind of the
48:54narrative tension is ramping up. We move
48:56into that contest. Uh we've been
48:57positioned the suitors definitely the
48:59bad guys. We've got Adysius in place in
49:02the palace. We've got Penelopey setting
49:03up the contest of the bow. She's been
49:05told Adysius might come home and now
49:07everyone's waiting and watching what's
49:08going to happen next.
49:09>> Bringing back into the that kernels of
49:11truth of the real Bronze Age world in
49:13which this story is set. Do we have any
49:15idea like in the late Bronze Age time,
49:17this time the the masonians that archery
49:20contests or things like that were
49:22popular? That might be like the origins
49:25of the one of these great stories.
49:27>> Yeah. Well, there are several different
49:28theories about what might have been
49:29going on here. Um, one that's really
49:31interesting is that we do see um some
49:33kind of visual evidence from the period
49:35um of uh sort of axe heads similar to
49:38kind of what is being described here
49:39with holes uh with kind of uh archery
49:42contests at them. There is visual
49:44suggestion that that might be happening.
49:46So potentially there might be a kind of
49:48a kernel of truth there. Um at the same
49:50time we do see multiple different wall
49:52paintings of archery happening on uh
49:54walls, people going out on hunts and
49:56these kinds of things. So, you know,
49:57it's definitely something that is
49:58definitely not beyond uh doubt.
50:01>> And this is all happening in kind of the
50:02main area of the palace. Are we thinking
50:04the kind of the main meeting area where
50:06the students are all gathered?
50:07>> Yeah. Probably sort of the the courtyard
50:09that's at the heart of the palace. Yeah.
50:10>> And so, how does the contest go? Who
50:14steps up first?
50:15>> Yeah. Well, it's really interesting
50:16because of course the suitors are
50:18delighted by this because they think,
50:19you know, as we said, for them they
50:21think they're winning. Okay. Maybe their
50:23ambush on Tmicus didn't work, but you
50:25know, we've got we've got an in. We've
50:27got a chance. Uh and they definitely
50:29think they can do it. So, we've got, of
50:30course, Antinuis, the leader of the
50:32suitors, who has his go. He goes first,
50:34does he?
50:34>> I I'm pretty sure he goes first. Yeah.
50:37Um but he he definitely is uh keen to
50:39make sure that he can prove that he uh
50:41would be able to be a replacement for
50:43Adysius, but he cannot string the bow.
50:46So, he can't even do that kind of first
50:47step to be able to string the bow, let
50:49alone be able to shoot it through the
50:51axes. And then we get one after the
50:52other. We get all of the suitors kind of
50:54trying and failing and each of them just
50:56can't do it. Um, finally, and this is
50:58interesting, Tmacus wants to have a go.
51:01Um, so Penelope and Adysius's son just
51:04on the edge of manhood. And it's really
51:06interesting because here we're seeing a
51:08replacement for Adysius in a different
51:10way. We're seeing a son who could
51:12potentially replace the father. And he
51:14steps up and he almost strings the bow.
51:16>> Oh, interesting.
51:17>> Yeah. And it's a nod from Adysius that
51:19stops him from doing it. And is it also
51:21this idea of tomicus? Of course, he's
51:23not doing it to marry his mom. It's to
51:26protect his mom kind of.
51:27>> Exactly. And to prove himself as sort of
51:30the natural successor to Adysius, the
51:31next king. Exactly. Exactly. Um so I
51:34think it's, you know, definitely a sign
51:36that Tmicus is on the edge of that point
51:38where he would be able to stand side by
51:40side with Adysius and and claim the
51:42kingship. Of course, the fact that he
51:43doesn't do it then sets the scene for
51:45Adysius disguised as the beggar to step
51:48in and say, "Well, can I have a go?"
51:50>> But, sorry, quick because that also
51:52makes sense because earlier in the
51:53story, he's conversing with Athena.
51:55She's saying, "Are you going to be quite
51:57like I see good things in you for the
52:00future like there is potential here."
52:02So, once again, there's that that that
52:04>> that motive that portrayal continues
52:07that there is that Adysius like he is
52:09going to reach the heights of his
52:10father, but not quite now. It's still
52:12Adysius's time to shine.
52:13>> It is indeed. And we've had moments also
52:15when he met with Helen, Helen of Sparta,
52:18Helen of Troy, where she said, "You look
52:20so like Adysius, you know." So, he's
52:22definitely being seen as following in
52:24Adysius's footsteps. However, in order
52:26to kind of get on dad's side, there is
52:28something that he's got to do, and
52:30that's pretty horrific, which is the
52:31slaughter of the suitors, and he takes
52:33part in that. And it's almost his
52:35initiation into manhood into the
52:37kingship of Ithaca is if you're prepared
52:39to do this then you know this is what
52:40you've got to do.
52:41>> All right. So Tmicus just doesn't string
52:45the bow.
52:46>> And who steps up next?
52:48>> An old beggar.
52:49>> An old beggar.
52:50>> And everyone's surprised. The suitors
52:52are sneering. Um nobody thinks that an
52:55old beggar would have a chance of
52:57stringing the bow, let alone being
52:58Penelopey's husband. However, he
53:02persuades them to let him have a go.
53:04Tmicus steps forward, says, "No, let him
53:06have it." And he reaches for the bow and
53:09he strings it like a bard stringing a
53:12liar. He sounds the string of the bow
53:15and it sings out like a bird. An
53:17extraordinary, beautiful moment where
53:19Adysius the bard has now become Adysius
53:22the archer. He picks up the bow and as
53:25he does so, the disguise sheds from him.
53:28He becomes Adysius once more and he
53:30shoots the arrow through the axes and
53:32the slaughter of the suitors begins.
53:34>> Is Antinuis the first to get the bullet
53:36or should I say the arrow?
53:37>> Uh he is certainly one of the first. I
53:39can't remember if he's the very first
53:41but he is certainly the person that
53:43Adysius has his sights set on. Um and at
53:46this point we then go straight into the
53:49action of um needing to get rid of the
53:51suitors.
53:52>> And and [laughter]
53:53[snorts] as morbid as it is, describe
53:56the slaughter. What do we
53:59presume for this part of the Odyssey,
54:01it's not just and then he killed them
54:02all. I'm sure there's a bit more of it.
54:05I mean, you know, these are epics that
54:07were born in kind of glorifying warfare
54:09and um preserving the memory of heroes
54:12who uh did some really bloody deeds. And
54:14I mean, if anyone's read any of the
54:16Iliad, you know, you'll know that
54:17there's plenty of kind of, you know,
54:18brains and blood and guts. Um so,
54:20absolutely, we're given quite a lot of
54:22detail. So what Adysius does is remember
54:24he's already got Uraklair on his side.
54:26Uraclair is an important player in this
54:29because she uh as well as being the kind
54:31of enslaved nurse, she's also the
54:33housekeeper. She's got the keys to the
54:35storms. So she's able to lock the doors.
54:37So what she does is she's taken out all
54:39of the weapons from the hall.
54:41>> Ah,
54:42>> and she then locks the doors. So the
54:44women are out, the men are in, and they
54:47cannot escape. And what ensues is
54:49essentially a blood bath where the
54:50suitors completely unarmed are just um
54:54completely annihilated by
54:55>> I can imagine they're quite they're
54:56quite drunk. They're quite drunk as
54:57well.
54:58>> They're drunk. Uh you know they've been
54:59also kind of lazing around in Ithaca for
55:0220 years. They're not sort of battleh
55:03hardened war veterans like Adysius is.
55:06Um he's also got Tmicus on his side.
55:08He's got Yus. He's Felius. And so they
55:10all just kind of have at it. And by the
55:14end it's just is it blood and guts
55:17everywhere? The dead
55:18>> the hall is running with blood. And in
55:20fact uh it's one of the kind of really
55:22awful scenes is that that needs to be
55:24cleared up. And who is going to clear it
55:26up but the enslaved women
55:28>> and these are the women who have been
55:30sleeping with or raped by the suitors.
55:33And they then have to clean up the
55:34bodies. They have to scrub the blood
55:36from the halls. They have to get the
55:38smell out. And after that, Adysius
55:40decides that it's time for Tmacus to
55:42step up to be a man. And he has to
55:44punish them.
55:46>> What's the punishment?
55:47>> He takes 12 of the enslaved women who
55:50were the ones who were deemed to have
55:51been traitors with the suitors and they
55:55are strung up by their neck on nooes
55:59across the courtyard and killed.
56:02>> Wow. That's the part of the story that
56:04you don't well someone who's been told
56:07the Odyssey will probably not quite
56:09remember as much as the suitors that
56:11that grim after note and that's Tmicus
56:14and Tmicus
56:15>> you and says you've got to do that.
56:18>> Exactly. There is there is to me an
56:20element here of hazing of you know if
56:23you're going to be the king you've got
56:25to be ready to do these kinds of things.
56:27This is Adysius's vision of kingship.
56:29This is what getting home means. I think
56:31we really tend to forget that. We tend
56:33to think it's a kind of romantic uh
56:35arrival home and you know the reunion
56:37with Penelope. Before that happens,
56:40there is an absolute bloodbath and there
56:42is the hanging of 12 enslaved women.
56:44>> Is anyone spared?
56:45>> So there are some people who are spared.
56:47You've got for instance and Floydius who
56:49were on the right side. So they're
56:50they're all fine. Um there are some of
56:53the suitors who try and beg for mercy.
56:55Um and not even them uh get away. So,
56:57it's uh it is a really kind of thorough
57:00cleansing almost a kind of how can we
57:03return to what it looked like before
57:05Adysius left for the Trojan War. How can
57:07we get them all out of our house? I
57:09think the scrubbing of the the sort of
57:11floors of the palace is very symbolic
57:13about the memory of them, everything
57:15out. And [snorts] is it Penelopey then
57:18sees
57:19her beloved Adysius after so many years?
57:22He's still got a lot of explaining to
57:24do, let's be fair. Um, in the middle of
57:27this blood soaked room, does she come
57:29running down towards him?
57:30>> Well, she doesn't. So, it's, you know,
57:32Penelopey we've talked about, she's sort
57:34of just as clever as her husband, just
57:36as canny. And so, she wants to take her
57:38time to work out who this potentially
57:41murderous new suitor is. Um, Eura comes
57:44running up and says, "Odisyscus is home.
57:46You know, you you should be so
57:48overjoyed." And she says, "Well, you
57:50know, I've got to make sure." And she
57:52comes down and she gives Adysius a test
57:54of her own. So, we've had already kind
57:56of the contest of the bow, but now she's
57:58got her own little test to make sure
58:00that this really is Adysius.
58:01>> And what's that test?
58:02>> Well, the test is around their marital
58:05bed. So the story is that Adysius before
58:07he went to Troy made a bed for the
58:10husband and wife in an olive tree that
58:12grew through the palace of Ithaca and
58:14that he hollowed out part of the trunk
58:15and made a bed for them. And what
58:17Penelopey does is that she says uh to
58:19Adysius uh well you know we've made up a
58:22bed for you and uh moved the bed out of
58:25my room uh for you. And he is outraged
58:28and he says who moved my bed? Now,
58:31obviously, this is a symbol of the fact
58:33that Penelopey might have been
58:34unfaithful because if that bed that he
58:36made for them, for their marital union
58:38could have been moved, maybe she's been
58:40unfaithful. And she realizes at the
58:42point where he gets outraged that the
58:44bed could have been moved and he tells
58:45the story of the olive tree, she
58:47realizes it's him.
58:48>> I don't I don't really feel he's got a
58:49leg to stand on on that. [laughter] But,
58:51um, is that a is that left um ambiguous?
58:55Is that not revealed whether she was
58:57faithful or not or
58:58>> It's left ambiguous. Yeah. So what they
58:59do and there's a sort of moment then of
59:01reunion where they get together in that
59:03bed that he made for them and they tell
59:06their stories of everything that
59:07happened and interestingly Adysius tells
59:10her about Calypso and Cersei but he
59:12doesn't tell her about Nasaka. So he
59:15misses some things out.
59:16>> She's the princess of the the I'm not
59:19going to say the word again of the
59:20fatian. Yes. Okay. He is. And she's the
59:23one, interestingly, who is potentially
59:25the nearest miss in terms of him not
59:27only being unfaithful, but potentially
59:29settling down because they have this
59:31kind of sort of weird initiated
59:33courtship almost. Um, and he doesn't
59:35tell her about Nasikar. So, there's some
59:37interesting sort of storytelling going
59:39on. I mean, Adysius cannot stop telling
59:41his stories, can he?
59:42>> There you go. And you think that's the
59:45end of the Odyssey, but but it's not
59:47quite because
59:49>> these suitors, I know I haven't got much
59:51time, so I can't do too much, but but
59:52these suitors, of course, they're still
59:54the most prominent figures in the land
59:55and around. It's not just them. They
59:57have their own families. They have their
59:59own supporters.
1:00:00>> They do.
1:00:01>> And so slaughtering all these people,
1:00:05it's going to have repercussions. And
1:00:07isn't that the case with Adysius?
1:00:08>> It is. So, you might expect the Odyssey
1:00:10to end on this kind of happy note, you
1:00:12know, reunion, marriage bed, re
1:00:14reunited, all of that. But it actually
1:00:16ends on a really kind of troubled,
1:00:18problematic note where essentially what
1:00:20we're seeing is almost a civil war about
1:00:22to break out in Ithaca because, as you
1:00:23say, you know, he has just murdered 108
1:00:26of the, you know, young men from the
1:00:28island and the surrounding islands. Um,
1:00:30they have their families, they have
1:00:31their supporters, all of them come
1:00:33rushing in and saying, "Well, what the
1:00:34what the hell are you doing just killing
1:00:36all of our men folk?" let alone of
1:00:38course the fact that all of the Ithacans
1:00:39that he took on the ship with him to
1:00:41Troy have not come back.
1:00:42>> There's other that there's also that
1:00:43part. Where are these soldiers you took
1:00:45to Troy?
1:00:45>> Yeah. So they're really gearing up for
1:00:47um a kind of war uh that's about to
1:00:49break out on Ithaca. Um and at that
1:00:52point as Adysius is rallying as Tmicus
1:00:55is rallying his aged father Leertes. At
1:00:57that point Athena uh the goddess who we
1:00:59have seen kind of time and time again
1:01:01coming to almost pull the o the
1:01:03narrative of the Odyssey back into
1:01:05order. she comes down again and she
1:01:07stops the fighting. So, we've got a sort
1:01:09of temporary god induced pause. Whether
1:01:12that would be enough to stop all of the
1:01:15kind of uh conclusions sort of
1:01:18unraveling from what Adysius has done,
1:01:20um I'm not sure whether that would be,
1:01:22but at least for some moment at the end
1:01:24of the Odyssey, things hang in the
1:01:26balance.
1:01:26>> Things hang in the balance. But Penelope
1:01:28and Adysius are back together again. And
1:01:32obviously we talked earlier about
1:01:33Agamenon and Claytonestra and how that
1:01:35is not a marriage made in heaven. Quite
1:01:38frankly it's the opposite.
1:01:39>> It's a nice contrast though, isn't it?
1:01:41One of actually kind of
1:01:42>> a marriage that works
1:01:44>> between a hero and this and a queen um
1:01:47compared to the compared to the the
1:01:49Agamemnon and Clystra and so on. But
1:01:53that is the end of the Odyssey. That's
1:01:55that's the return the homecoming.
1:01:57>> That slightly troubled note at the end.
1:02:00Well, the troubled note and also the
1:02:01fact that Adysius halfway through the
1:02:03Odyssey was given a prophecy that he was
1:02:04going to go on another voyage again
1:02:06which he tells Penelopey when they have
1:02:08their little chat in the night. He says,
1:02:10you know, by the way, this isn't the
1:02:11end. I'm going to be off on another
1:02:13journey. So, not only have we kind of
1:02:15had a very troubled closure, but also
1:02:17we've got the opening to a future
1:02:18journey.
1:02:18>> And do we know what that journey will
1:02:20be? Is it revealed in any other Greek
1:02:22sources what actually was supposed to
1:02:23happen after the end of the Odyssey?
1:02:25>> We do. Yeah. So, well, first of all, we
1:02:27know because Tyrese gives him the
1:02:28prophecy of what he's going to do. So,
1:02:30he says he's going to wander um with an
1:02:32ore on his back until he gets to a place
1:02:35where men do not know the sea and they
1:02:37think that the ore on his back is a
1:02:39winnowing fan. Uh so, that's kind of the
1:02:41first prediction. He's going to go on
1:02:42this long land voyage. But the other
1:02:45thing that happens which is really
1:02:46interesting is how Adysius dies. And
1:02:48this is on another uh journey that he
1:02:51goes on. And he ends up accidentally
1:02:53meeting the son that he and Cersei had
1:02:57together. And that son doesn't realize
1:02:59that this is his father. Uh unwittingly
1:03:02wounds him with a poison tipped spear.
1:03:04And that is how Adysius dies.
1:03:06>> I didn't know that at all. Interesting.
1:03:09>> Telegus is the name of the son. And this
1:03:11was the subject of another epic that
1:03:13came after called the Teleg. So, so we
1:03:16think of the Iliad and the Odyssey, but
1:03:18the real the real the real, you know,
1:03:21the hard nuts, the the people who know
1:03:22it the best. No. Well, actually, it's
1:03:24the Iliad, the Odyssey, and then the
1:03:25Telegraph.
1:03:26>> Well, absolutely. And all of the others,
1:03:27the Ethiop, the Ilopes, the Cypria.
1:03:29There are so many that we just don't
1:03:31have. We've got two of them. There was a
1:03:33whole collection of these epics.
1:03:34>> Gosh. So, why of all of them today? Of
1:03:38course, we've got coming very soon,
1:03:41maybe now released, um, we have
1:03:43Christopher Nolan's epic, The Odyssey.
1:03:45Why do you think of all the stories, The
1:03:47Odyssey, it resonates so much with us
1:03:50even today?
1:03:51>> The Odyssey is a story you can take on
1:03:53many different levels. You can take it
1:03:55on the kind of surface level of kind of
1:03:57swashbuckling adventure, um, the
1:03:59fantastical journey, sort of the
1:04:02piratical nature of what he does. On
1:04:04that level, it's just pure enjoyment.
1:04:07But I think on a deeper level, there are
1:04:09themes here that resonate with us as
1:04:12humans. Themes about what it means to be
1:04:15someone who acts within society, within
1:04:17their community, whether that is someone
1:04:19who's trying to uphold them and get the
1:04:21men home as Adysius does or someone who
1:04:22ends up ultimately destroying them, what
1:04:24it is to be within a family, what it is
1:04:26to be within a home. These are themes
1:04:28that I think resonate with us all. and
1:04:30Adysius what he ultimately is trying to
1:04:32do is he is trying to get back into
1:04:35human society make his way in the world
1:04:38and if that's not something that all of
1:04:39us understand that journey to try and
1:04:41understand who you are how you make your
1:04:43way in the world I think the Odyssey
1:04:44resonates with us all
1:04:46>> it's also how to be respectful when
1:04:48you're in the house of someone else how
1:04:50to treat your guests as well I guess are
1:04:52those other big things need
1:04:53>> absolutely thinking about kind of the
1:04:55right codes of conduct with others and
1:04:57that that idea of zenia that idea of
1:04:58hospitality guest friendship those ties
1:05:01that knit us together as a community of
1:05:03humans and how fragile they are as well,
1:05:06how easily they break apart, I think is
1:05:08also a warning, right? That that sort of
1:05:10very troubled ending of the Odyssey is
1:05:12also a sense that um we need to take
1:05:14care and we need to think these things
1:05:16through. And the Odyssey is a beautiful
1:05:18prism to think through those kinds of
1:05:20issues.
1:05:21>> Emily, this has been truly epic. 24
1:05:24books of the Odyssey covered from start
1:05:26to finish. Uh what a story. couldn't
1:05:29have asked for a better guest to talk
1:05:30through it with as well. Last but
1:05:33certainly not least, you have written a
1:05:34book recently which covers several
1:05:36really important figures in the story of
1:05:38the Odyssey and B their links not just
1:05:43to the real world but their importance
1:05:45in the mythology.
1:05:46>> Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I'm really
1:05:47passionate about thinking about why
1:05:49these stories matter now and and why we
1:05:51should keep turning back to them and and
1:05:53my book Mythica is about the real women
1:05:56who stand behind these myths and who
1:05:58might have made up the kind of the
1:06:00tapestry of the late Bronze Age world
1:06:02who might have kind of prefigured
1:06:04figures like Helen, like Penelopey, like
1:06:06Nikka, Ariti, who we've talked about,
1:06:08Calypso, Cersei. What was the reality of
1:06:10the world behind that? And how did they
1:06:12sort of trickle down into the legends
1:06:14that ended up making Homer's Odyssey?
1:06:16So, you know, it's something that what's
1:06:18fascinating about it is that yes, there
1:06:20was a history that was standing behind
1:06:21the Odyssey, but it's also something
1:06:23that we've been lost because we haven't
1:06:24been thinking and talking about the
1:06:26women. And what we can do now because
1:06:28we're interested in those stories again
1:06:30because, you know, we're looking back,
1:06:31we're turning back constantly to these
1:06:33tales, we can start to ask new
1:06:34questions. And for me, that's what's so
1:06:36exciting about the Odyssey. You can keep
1:06:38coming back and asking more.
1:06:39>> Fantastic. And of course, this isn't the
1:06:41last time that I'm going to see you
1:06:42because next we're going to watch
1:06:46Christopher Nolan's Odyssey and we're
1:06:49going to record one more episode, our
1:06:52thoughts about it. Are you excited?
1:06:53>> I am really looking forward to it. I am
1:06:55also looking forward to dissecting it
1:06:57together.
1:06:57>> Emily, it just goes me to say thank you
1:06:59so much for coming on the podcast today.
1:07:01>> Thank you so much for having me.

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