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⁠How Michael Phelps Built a Champion Mindset: Obsession & Discipline | FO458 Raj Shamani — Transcript

by Raj Shamani · 24,488 words · 3,436 segments · language en · Watch on YouTube

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0:00Michael Phelps, of course, is the most
0:02decorated [music] Olympian of all time.
0:04If he was a country, he would have the
0:06third most swimming medal ever.
0:11>> Where did this obsession of winning come
0:12from?
0:13>> Hating to lose. I hate to lose more than
0:15I enjoy winning.
0:17>> How did this come up?
0:18>> One thing my coach took out of my
0:20vocabulary was the word can't because
0:22it's going to be exponentially harder
0:24since you told yourself you can't. 28
0:27medals, the second youngest male swimmer
0:29to qualify for a US Olympic team.
0:31>> And what goes on in your head before
0:33even the race is start
0:34>> when I'm on the block? Nothing. I'm like
0:36a dog trying to get out of the cage.
0:38Like I'm just
0:40>> Do you use any psychological warfare
0:43sort of tactic against your competitors?
0:46>> I'm taking care of me and I'm [music]
0:47focusing on what I need in that moment.
0:49I don't give a [ __ ] about my competitors
0:50in that moment. When I'm on the pool
0:51deck, it is a full-blown war.
0:55I want to absolutely destroy some.
0:57>> Was there anyone you secretly feared as
0:59a competitor?
1:00>> No, I beat everybody. I don't care who
1:03you are. I'm the shark in the water. I
1:06smell that smallest ounce of blood. I'm
1:08going to destroy.
1:09>> Watch me take it.
1:10>> Tell me about that phase which is your
1:122008 Beijing where you won eight gold
1:15medals.
1:15>> History in Beijing for Michael. Eight
1:20for eight.
1:21>> Like those two years I felt unbeatable
1:23in the pool. I literally felt like there
1:25wasn't a single soul on the planet that
1:26could touch me, that could beat me.
1:28>> Explaining an interview which you gave,
1:30the interviewer asks you that you've won
1:3228 Olympic medals in your life and you
1:34said no, just 23 that count.
1:36>> I meddled in 28 out of 30 of my races at
1:38the Olympic Games. 23 are only the ones
1:41that we need to talk about. Uh,
1:42>> silver is losing.
1:43>> We are second. You lost. Third place,
1:45you lost. I don't talk about the other
1:46five.
1:47>> It's going to be gold. It's going to be
1:49a new world record. Once I did make that
1:52Olympic team, when I got fifth, I was
1:55pissed because I didn't want a piece of
1:56paper that somebody said,
1:57"Congratulations, you came and
1:59competed." I came because I wanted
2:00something around my neck.
2:02>> I'm there to hear my national anthem
2:04play. That's it.
2:07>> Tell me the first time you won the gold
2:09medal.
2:09>> I couldn't get caught up in that one
2:11moment, even though it was special. So
2:14that gold medal is like, "All right,
2:15finished. What's next?"
2:19Walk me through four, five techniques or
2:21certain things that you would do in that
2:22five, six years of training where you
2:24were truly preparing to win gold. We'd
2:27start in the morning with a training
2:28session,
2:30eat plates of food for breakfast, go
2:32home, take a nap, wake up, eat something
2:35else, go back to the pool, go home, eat,
2:38sleep, wake up, and do it all over
2:40again.
2:40>> Every day for 6 years.
2:41>> 6 year stretch where I didn't miss a
2:43single day. A lot of people say why and
2:46I say why not. There wasn't a single
2:48person on this planet during those 20
2:50years pretty much in my career that was
2:52more prepared than me. That's why I got
2:53the results that I got.
2:56[music]
3:03Five Olympic games, 28 medals, 23 of
3:06them gold, 39 world records. If this man
3:09was a country, he would have been the
3:12third highest
3:14country with the medals. There is no
3:17other human being. There is no other
3:20athlete in the world who has achieved
3:22this much in a single sport as much as
3:25this person has achieved. He's a beast.
3:28He's a maniac. He's achieved numbers
3:30that no human has ever touched. He's
3:33achieved numbers that might never be
3:34touched again. And for 6 years straight,
3:37this man trained every single day. No
3:39Sundays off, no holidays, no Christmas,
3:42nothing, no excuses.
3:45How did he build this beast wild
3:49mindset? While the world was moving, he
3:52was training like a maniac. He was
3:54obsessed trying to be better, faster
3:56just by 1 second, just by half a second.
3:59And today on figuring out, we're sitting
4:02with this beast, the absolute goat. It's
4:05an honor to do the podcast with Michael
4:08Phelps, the greatest athlete, the
4:12greatest Olympian, the athlete which has
4:16never existed before and the world has
4:19never seen. And in this conversation,
4:21we're going to figure out what it
4:23actually takes to absolutely become the
4:26champion and to build a mindset of a
4:28beast so that you kill it every time you
4:31enter the arena. This podcast is like
4:35the masterclass of an athlete mindset.
4:39If you want to win this year, watch this
4:42till the end. [music]
4:48>> You know, actually before I even I even
4:50start this,
4:52how about
4:56for 0.01% 01% people who have no clue
5:01who you are. Why don't you tell us,
5:03Michael, who are you?
5:04>> I was a swimmer at one point in my life.
5:07Um,
5:09won a couple gold medals, broke a couple
5:12world records. Um, competed in five
5:15Olympic games.
5:18Uh, I'm a father of four now. I have
5:21four boys, nine, seven, six, and almost
5:24two.
5:26Um,
5:27yeah. And I think a lot of what I try to
5:30do now is [snorts] is really promote
5:34healthy and active lifestyles, whether
5:36that's water safety with my foundation.
5:40Um, or it's really trying to open up the
5:44world to the importance of mental
5:46health. Um, you know, I think for me
5:49going through what I went through the
5:51tail end of my career, um, really helped
5:54me explore more about who I am. Um, but
5:58also I think with me showing my
6:01vulnerability and opening up and talking
6:03about the struggles that I go through,
6:06I've been able to hear others or see
6:09others that have become vulnerable
6:11around me and shared what they go
6:13through. Um, and for me, I think the
6:17second part is way bigger than the first
6:21part. Um, because the second part we're
6:24dealing with life and death. The first
6:26part was awesome. Like, don't get me
6:29wrong, it was incredible hearing my my
6:31national anthem play and, you know,
6:34winning a bunch of gold medals, but, you
6:36know, the fact that life and death is
6:39also in play with so many people. I
6:41think I I just read a stat, my wife just
6:45sent it to me yesterday. It was,
6:49this is [snorts] kind of crazy to me.
6:51Suicide's the second leading cause of
6:53death for people 10 to 34.
6:59So for me, that's why I say the second
7:01part is so much it's so much bigger. Um,
7:04you know, just being again being able to
7:06save a life uh is a thousand times
7:10better than winning an Olympic gold
7:11medal. Um, and for me, just being able
7:14to have the platform that I had that I
7:17have um to give me the chance to to
7:22speak what I'm passionate about is is
7:24really special.
7:26>> Let's try to understand both the phases
7:28of your life.
7:29>> Part one, part two.
7:31>> But before we go there, I want to
7:33understand something about you when you
7:34were a child. like from the beginning
7:37tell me what do I need to understand
7:39about you when you were 10 years old you
7:42[snorts] were unable to sit in a class
7:44you saw your parents uh relationship
7:47falling off you were restless
7:51and not able to just cope up with
7:54everything which normal kids do
7:56>> what do I need to understand about that
7:57Michael
7:58>> um
7:59>> which helps me understand everything
8:00that came after
8:01>> yeah I [snorts] mean I think for me Uh,
8:05you know, going back even before 10, you
8:08know, when I was 7 years old, I was, you
8:11know, non-stop kind of bouncing off the
8:13wall, you know, I was always around the
8:15pool. My my two older sisters swam, so I
8:18was around the pool all the time. So,
8:19water safety was
8:22uh something that was a big priority for
8:24my mother and and you know, once I was
8:26in the water and I was safe there, you
8:29know, I was kind of playing around the
8:30pool all the time. So that's when I got
8:32into the water and then the water was
8:35kind of a release for me. Um, you know,
8:39being able to
8:41kind of swim as hard as you want to go
8:43faster with, you know, anger, if you
8:47might have it, was something that I
8:49enjoyed. Um, yeah, it wasn't great
8:53dealing with anger as a 7 8 n 10year-old
8:56kid. Um, but for me it was an outlet.
9:00Um, and it was something that that you
9:02know I ended up falling in love with.
9:04And uh yeah, I mean I I remember in
9:08uh middle school
9:10[clears throat]
9:11I was told uh by my teachers that I
9:15would never by excuse me by a teacher uh
9:17that I would never amount to anything.
9:20Um and I still remember her name and and
9:24uh I still remember what she looks like.
9:26I still remember where I was sitting in
9:27the class. Um and and I think at that
9:31point for me I used it as motivation. Um
9:34you know the the fact that a teacher
9:37number one would say they're doubting a
9:39student and not knowing how to deal with
9:41them I think is saddening. It's
9:44upsetting. Um but for me I was like
9:47watch this. I'm going to prove you. Uh,
9:49and I think at the time that was pretty
9:51much when I
9:53had stopped taking um, rolin, which was
9:57for my ADHD. Uh, so my ADHD, I literally
10:02was like I was all over the place. I was
10:04leaning back in the chair, on the back
10:06legs, leaving dents on the on the floor
10:09in the classroom, always getting sent to
10:11the principal's office. And honestly, I
10:13just had a really hard time sitting
10:14still. Um, and at that point my mom was,
10:18you know, I was playing baseball, I was
10:19playing lacrosse, I was playing soccer,
10:21and I was swimming. I was playing all
10:23these different sports just to try to
10:25get the energy out of me. My mom is just
10:27like, I don't know what to do with them.
10:29Um, and it's crazy. Fast forward now to
10:31where I'm 40 and I have four kids. It's
10:33the same way. [laughter] Their kids are
10:35non-stop. Um, but I think, you know,
10:38going back to that point, I I think
10:41swimming really gave me
10:44something to focus on. Um, yeah, I was
10:47that well, I still am that kind of ADD,
10:51kind of all over the place, jittery,
10:53like kind of always moving around. Like
10:55that's just who I am. That's my
10:57personality. So, you know, I think over
10:59time I naturally took something that
11:01somebody labeled me with having or being
11:06a less than of a kid. I took that into
11:09into almost really making it a
11:10superpower. Um, because it gave me the
11:13ability to focus on things that I was
11:15really passionate about.
11:16>> Um,
11:17>> so your teacher said she must have
11:19noticed and the rest of the world just
11:20noticed how you were as a kid who were
11:22restless, not able to sit anywhere. What
11:24do you think
11:26that teacher didn't get or the world
11:28didn't get about that kid who was not
11:32able to sit properly? Because
11:34>> you definitely had something in you and
11:37you
11:37>> I just thought she didn't know how to
11:39whether it's a lack of better way of
11:41saying it like I didn't I don't think
11:42she wanted to deal with me or knew how
11:44to deal with me or knew how to handle me
11:47or kne or knew how to taught me teach
11:49me, right? Like she didn't she just
11:50didn't know. Um, and you know, like for
11:53me, like my mother has been in education
11:56for 50 years, you know, like that's her
11:59passion. Her passion is being in the
12:00classroom to try to make an impact for a
12:02student, to try to help them take
12:05whatever they're learning in that year
12:07or that classroom and catapult it to
12:09help them into the rest of their life,
12:11to help transform them into what they
12:13want to be. And all of those steps need
12:15to happen. But when a teacher, you know,
12:17instantly shuts down on a kid, it just
12:20doesn't look good for the teacher. Um,
12:22but I mean, [clears throat]
12:26I think I got like a C in her class. So,
12:29like, let's be honest.
12:31>> I was kind of like, just get me out of
12:33here, you know? Like, that was my least
12:35least favorite class that I went to
12:37every single day. And I was
12:38>> English. I hated English, [snorts] you
12:41know, and and maybe it was how she was
12:42teaching it to me because I had teachers
12:44that were great, you know, like I had
12:46teachers throughout my my
12:48uh elementary, middle, and high school
12:50where they were awesome and they helped
12:53me understand when I had problems
12:56learning what everybody else was
12:58learning faster than what I was
12:59learning. Or if I was learning things
13:02faster than everybody else, then she
13:04gave me he or she gave me stuff to help
13:06me stay focused, right? like that. I I
13:09think it's just
13:11everybody has a different mind and
13:13everybody is able to handle or control
13:16as much as they can. Um and she just
13:19didn't know what to do. Uh it was sad
13:21and I'm sure there still are teachers
13:23out there in the world that are like
13:24that and it is it is unfortunate. It is
13:27sad. Um but to the kids out there who do
13:31have an experience like that, know that
13:34there are other outcomes that can happen
13:36in life. Um, I mean, people doubted me
13:40in the swimming pool, too. And honestly,
13:42like for me, again, it was just it was a
13:44form of motivation. That was it, you
13:47know? Like, if somebody wants to doubt
13:48me, like I've been on this kick lately
13:50where I've just been firing off quotes
13:52on Instagram, just like on my story,
13:54just ripping quotes off that just like
13:56hit me in the morning.
13:57>> And I'm like I'm I'm a big quotes
13:58person. And and you know, like
14:00throughout my career, my coach would
14:01always put quotes on the top of the
14:03workout. um motivating quotes or just
14:06quotes that people need to hear or that
14:08for me that I need to hear um you know
14:12for for whatever you're going through
14:13life. So yeah, I can
14:14>> Which one's your favorite quote now?
14:16>> I mean my my favorite quote is actions
14:18speak louder than words, you know, like
14:20that's that's one of my all-time
14:22favorite handsown quotes because it it's
14:25true, you know, like you can say
14:27whatever you want, but if your actions
14:29don't back up those words, then all it
14:31is is just a bold-faced lie, you know?
14:34So, you know, for me, like throughout my
14:36career, like I I wanted to, you know,
14:39break this world record, win this gold
14:41medal, whatever it was. And I knew that
14:43there had to be a process on how to get
14:46there, right? Like, I can't just say it
14:47and snap my fingers. There had to be,
14:50you know, every single day little baby
14:52things that were stacked on top of each
14:54other and little baby steps that were
14:56heading towards that goal. And if I was
14:58taking steps backwards, then I'm just
15:00cheating myself.
15:01What what do you think? You said water
15:05became your escape and you were just
15:06always in the pool taking out your anger
15:09and everything like it it became your
15:11coping mechanism in some sort and you
15:13were always in the pool, right?
15:14>> What do you think? What did water give
15:15you emotionally which nothing else
15:18could?
15:20>> Um I [clears throat] mean my kids call
15:22me Aquaman now so I guess [laughter]
15:24it's kind of fitting. Um you know I I
15:27don't know. I think thinking back to it
15:29and, you know, kind of being able to
15:31dive through my career a little bit
15:33inside the pool, um, I was super
15:36sensitive to every little part of the
15:39water on my body, right? So, like when I
15:41would swim, I'm feeling the water in the
15:43palm of my hands. Like that's where I'm
15:46feeling all the pressure. So, if my
15:48shoulder or my my arm or my body is not
15:50a certain way, then I'm not able to feel
15:52that. So, it's all trial and error and
15:54trying to get into the right position.
15:57Um, and naturally I think you know for
16:00me just being submerged in water I just
16:03felt at home. um I don't know for lack
16:06of better terms like you know even be
16:09even like now if I go into a big
16:12depression state or I'm just in a
16:15grouchy mood for a couple of days and
16:18workout hasn't helped and you know my
16:20normal routine hasn't helped whether
16:21it's the cold tub or the sauna you know
16:24I'll just get you know my wife will just
16:26kick me out of the house and say go go
16:28go jump in the swimming pool um because
16:30it's it's kind of like the only place
16:32where I I don't have anybody body
16:35talking to me. I don't have to think
16:37about stroke. I don't have to think
16:40about what I'm having for dinner or what
16:42I'm making for dinner or what I'm doing
16:44tomorrow or this or that. I'm just there
16:47in the moment, right? Like I can just be
16:50and I can swim for 500, which is I mean
16:56minimal compared to what I used to swim.
16:58[laughter] Um or I could swim 2,000. It
17:01doesn't matter. like just being able to
17:04be back in the water, being back into
17:07that environment, I think is kind of one
17:10of my reset switches. Um, that kind of
17:13just levels me out.
17:15>> Do you think you were running away from
17:16something
17:17>> or you were you were swimming away from
17:20something or swimming towards something?
17:22>> I think I found swimming, yeah, as an
17:25outlet. But I think, you know, the
17:26reason why I found swimming is my two
17:28older sisters swam as well. So, you
17:30know, for me, kind of seeing what they
17:32were doing and my middle sister Whitney
17:35was traveling all over the world and she
17:37was on world championship teams. I was
17:39like, "Wow, that seems pretty cool."
17:40Like, she was trying to go to the
17:42Olympic Games. And I was like, "Yeah, I
17:44want to go to the Olympic Games." Like,
17:45hell yeah. Like, who doesn't want to go
17:46to the Olympic Games? Um, and I just
17:49kind of followed and and you know,
17:52naturally as a kid, if you learn that
17:54you get good or you start getting
17:57faster,
17:59you kind of think how fast can I get?
18:01And that's kind of what I did, you know,
18:03like from the start until the end of my
18:05career, I was kind of like, all right,
18:08how how much faster can I get? Can I
18:10drop a second? Can I drop a half a
18:12second? Can I drop two tents? like what
18:15is the maximum potential that I have
18:17inside of me and how can I challenge
18:19myself in different ways? Um, swimming
18:22for me like again like I would scream
18:25underwater. You can't hear me. Like I
18:28would call my coach every single [ __ ]
18:31name on the planet. Like sorry for
18:33profanity, but like like I literally
18:35would like because there were times
18:37where I was so frustrated and so angry
18:40and there was nothing else I could do.
18:42whether it was like I my body was in
18:44pain, I I mentally couldn't do it or I
18:47felt like I couldn't do it. Um I would
18:50just scream and then naturally I would
18:52still get through it and it would go
18:54well and blah blah blah blah blah. But
18:57it's like in that moment like for me
18:59screaming was one of those things I
19:01would just let everything out. Um, and
19:03it's something of like, you know, we've
19:04taught our kids. Um, again, we have four
19:08boys and and the emotions get high. So,
19:12you know, we taught them this thing
19:13called a lion breath where you take a
19:15deep breath and you roar like a lion and
19:18you scream as loud as you can. And again
19:20with I mean the younger one doesn't
19:22scream that much but like the three
19:24older ones it's a lot of noise but it's
19:27again like we find once they're able to
19:29do that their shoulders drop a little
19:31bit and they're able to have that
19:32conversation of what big feelings
19:34emotions they're going through inside
19:36instead of carrying them along through
19:37life.
19:38>> Can you show me what is it like? What's
19:40the lion breath?
19:41>> Oh you don't want me to scream in here.
19:43>> It's okay. You can just show like a
19:44little bit of a small version of it.
19:46Obviously, [sighs]
19:48you can scream as loud as you want, but
19:50it's it's literally just take a big big
19:52big deep breath in and just scream as
19:55loud as you possibly can. And naturally,
19:58like naturally when when you do that,
20:00your shoulders do drop a little bit,
20:02right? You are able to kind of come back
20:05to earth, right? Be your normal self.
20:07Like I always joke there was uh the
20:10candy the Snicker Bars commercial. Um,
20:13it's always they they always show them
20:15here, but it's it's a commercial where
20:18it's like you take a bite of a Snickers
20:19and you just feel like your normal self.
20:21Like I feel like that's what that's what
20:22it is. Like what Snickers is saying like
20:24when you have a sugar low, you eat some
20:26sugar and naturally you feel better. But
20:28here it's like if you're stressed or
20:30you're frustrated and you take that deep
20:32breath, you're able to be like, okay, so
20:35why am I going through that? What
20:37feelings and emotions am I going
20:38through? And you're able just to get it
20:40all out. Like for me it's, you know,
20:42there are a bunch of different things
20:43that I do. Um I don't do lion breast
20:46that often, but uh when I'm in the pool,
20:48it's very easy to do it. Um but yeah, I
20:51mean there there's a checklist that I
20:52have for my own mental health.
20:54>> So you were So you used to scream inside
20:57the pool a lot.
20:58>> Oh,
20:59>> or like underwater like underwater,
21:01right? Like when I was going and taking
21:03like when I was doing my streamlines off
21:04the wall and I was kicking underwater. I
21:07would
21:08>> there were a lot of fbombs that were
21:09said. Yeah. That was one of my favorite
21:11words to scream underwater. And people
21:13could hear it honestly like when you're
21:15in a set like person next to me be like,
21:17"Did you just scream?" And you're like,
21:19"Mhm, [clears throat] I did. I did."
21:22They're like, "All right, we have one
21:23more." And you're like, "Yep, we got one
21:24more repeat. Let's go." Um, but it's
21:27it's just it's kind of like in the
21:29moment like I feel like I needed I
21:33needed to do that just to get through.
21:36Um, and everybody I think probably has
21:38something different, right? But that
21:39that was just me. It was screaming
21:40underwater. It's same thing like when
21:42I'm in the weight room now like I I was
21:45just traveling overseas and and I was
21:48lifting in I think it was Mumbai and I
21:52was in the weight room and I was like
21:54grunting. was like and like everybody in
21:57the gym like looked at me and I was like
21:58oh sh and I'm looking into a mirror and
22:00everybody's face is staring right at
22:02you. Um but it's just kind of something
22:05that I do. Um I mean I used to do it
22:07right when I get up onto the block,
22:09>> you know, right after I did my arm slap.
22:11It was something that I would always do
22:12just clear my throat.
22:14>> So is it you were screaming a lot
22:16because you were obsessed with trying to
22:18win or was it
22:20>> a lot of different things? It was
22:21probably Yeah. I wanted to win. I wanted
22:23to push through whatever I was going
22:24through or I was emotionally just ready
22:26to snap and screaming was something that
22:29would help me.
22:31>> Where did this obsession of winning come
22:33from? Was it
22:34>> hating to lose?
22:36>> But
22:36>> I hate to lose more than I enjoy
22:38winning.
22:38>> Even when you were like 9, 10, 11,
22:41>> how did this come up?
22:43>> I don't know. It was just something I
22:46always had. Like I always felt from from
22:49when I was a little kid like there was
22:52there was there was no second place.
22:55That wasn't an option. It's just
22:57something that I always I mean like I
23:00remember winning home run derby at 10 or
23:0211 years old. Like I was the biggest kid
23:05playing lacrosse, playing long stick
23:07midi. Um just slashing people with the
23:10stick. Um yeah, I mean winning was
23:15everything. Yeah. Do you think it has
23:17anything to do with not getting your
23:20father's approval when you were a kid?
23:22>> Um, the absence of
23:25>> I don't think so. Uh, because I I mean I
23:29would say a lot of it probably came from
23:30him. Um, because he was he was kind of
23:34more of the athlete from my parents'
23:37relationship. He was a baseball player,
23:40a football player, track and field stud.
23:43Um he I think he was the first person to
23:47get cut from uh the Washington Redskins
23:50back in the day uh when they were the
23:52Redskins. So um winning or trying to be
23:56the best was something that that in
23:58sports was something that he was he was
24:01very good at. Like competition in sports
24:03that that was something that he excelled
24:05in. Um, I would say my sister Whitney
24:08and I are
24:10uberly competitive, more competitive
24:12than my older sister Hillary. Um,
24:14especially in sports. Um, there's
24:16there's just Yeah, I mean, for us,
24:18again, there was just there was no
24:21second place.
24:22Um,
24:24you know, for me, it ended up becoming
24:27preparation, right? Like preparation is
24:29everything. If you're not prepared, then
24:32you're going to get second or you're
24:34going to get third or you're going to
24:35get last, right? Because there's always
24:37somebody that is overly prepared or more
24:39prepared than you are, no matter what.
24:42>> So for me, I just became that person.
24:44There wasn't a planet or there wasn't
24:47there wasn't a single person on this
24:48planet
24:50during those 20 years pretty much of my
24:53career. You know, I had a couple losses
24:56that I can name for through my Olympic
24:58career.
25:00But there wasn't another person on this
25:01planet that was more prepared than me.
25:04Not period. There wasn't. That's why I
25:07got the results that I got. It's not
25:08rocket science. It's not. I put in the
25:11work. I got the results. That's it.
25:14>> Let's let's go to your preparation time
25:16and like when you first started with
25:18your coach.
25:19>> Yeah. And
25:21first when your coach spotted you
25:24in the same year, he went to your mother
25:26and said that you're going to win an
25:27Olympics or you're going to be in the
25:28Olympics, right? What was that story?
25:30Tell me about it.
25:31>> My coach came to North Baltimore Aquatic
25:33Club where I was swimming or my sister
25:35swim long tradition of uh of excellence
25:37with that club in Baltimore. Um,
25:41you know, from
25:441984
25:46until
25:472016,
25:49there was at least one person on every
25:53single Olympic team.
25:55>> Wow. So, my coach came in 96 [snorts]
25:59or right before 96, maybe 95.
26:02>> Okay.
26:03>> Um,
26:05and he was helping my sister's group a
26:08little bit. uh my middle sister's group
26:10a little bit prepare for uh Olympic
26:13trials in the Olympic Games in 96 and
26:16then the group kind of split and he took
26:18over a different group. I think I'm
26:20think I'm explaining this right way. Um
26:22and then I remember seeing him while I
26:24was that kid playing at the pool, you
26:27know, I was only swimming like three
26:29days a week. Like I really wasn't
26:30training that much back then.
26:32And I would always play, play, play. And
26:36I would see him go up and down the pool,
26:40walk, run, arms up in the air,
26:43screaming, whistling. And I was like,
26:46like I remember being like, you know,
26:48like if it was me back then what I was
26:50thinking, I would be like, there's no
26:52[ __ ] chance I'm swimming for that
26:53man. Like he is an absolute lunatic.
26:57Fast forward a year.
27:00I spent 20 years 20 plus years of my
27:02life with that man and he is my only
27:04coach. Um but it's kind of crazy because
27:07you know seeing it you know I think at
27:10that age I was like man like truly like
27:12this guy's nuts. Um but what I learned
27:15it was just the passion that he has and
27:17that he that he had back then that he
27:19still has today. Um
27:20>> but did he come to you or you went to
27:22him? So, uh, I was I was excelling in
27:26the group that I was in and and I needed
27:28to be in a higher group and and I was 11
27:31years old at this time and the kids that
27:32were in that group were like 14, 15, 18
27:37years old, like way older, way more
27:39mature. Um, but I was faster than them.
27:44So I I ended up swimming in that group
27:46and and I got to that group and and but
27:48before I got there, my coach sat down
27:50with my parents and I and he's like,
27:52"Well, look, like if if you know your
27:54son wants to make the Olympic team in
27:55four years, he can make the Olympic
27:57team."
27:57>> As an 11 I was 11 years old,
28:00>> but he's like, he said that to me and
28:02he's like, "But look," he's like, "You
28:03got to stop playing baseball, lacrosse,
28:05and soccer."
28:07But for me like looking back now like
28:09those playing those four different
28:10sports
28:12I think naturally gave me a better body
28:14awareness like the more I talk to the
28:17professional athletes from all sports
28:19all walks of life now that's the same
28:22thing they did playing multiple sports
28:25don't be super hyperfocused on one sport
28:27but at a certain time there's then going
28:29to be a decision that you have to make
28:31it it's it's just naturally I feel like
28:33that's how it is in sports if you really
28:34want to be the best at one sport
28:38there's it you have to make a decision
28:40at some point. Um just because of the
28:42process of development this that and the
28:45other. Um but back then yeah he he sat
28:48down and said that and I was like all
28:49right kind like fine like I'll stop
28:50playing these other sports. I'll focus
28:52on swimming. No problem. And I just
28:55remember back then I I I was I was the
28:57Energizer Bunny. Like he basically would
28:59wind me up and I would just go or he
29:01would say jump and I would say how high.
29:03Um because he gave me that vision of
29:09wanting to go to the Olympic Games to
29:14then make the dream of winning an
29:17Olympic gold medal
29:20even bigger because you know I just
29:22thought about going and then I'm like
29:25maybe I could win right like that would
29:27be pretty cool. when you were 11 and he
29:29said that to you for the first time that
29:32you could go to Olympics in next four
29:33years. Did you believe it or did you act
29:36act like someone who believed it until
29:39it actually became true?
29:40>> Uh I believed it because he showed
29:43confidence in me
29:45>> as an 11year-old.
29:46>> Something that he saw of me in the pool
29:49gave him confidence that he could do
29:51that. He had already trained and worked
29:53with previous Olympic coaches, Olympic
29:56athletes, and he saw something. Um, and
30:00honestly, I think back to the question
30:02you asked earlier, you know, he then
30:05became a father figure in my life,
30:08right? Because
30:10I mean, I literally spent 25 years
30:14traveling the world with him, right? So,
30:16I mean, like basically my whole entire
30:18life was handinhand with him. everything
30:21we did swimming related was together.
30:24Um, and and you know, I think once I did
30:28make that Olympic team, that really
30:31really made me trust him because I was
30:34like like like for me because I know you
30:36said don't skip, but like when I made
30:39that Olympic team and I got fifth,
30:43I was pissed, but I was hungry, right?
30:46because I didn't want a piece of paper
30:47that somebody said, "Congratulations,
30:49you came and competed." It's not why I
30:51came. I came because I wanted something
30:53around my neck. That's it. So, I
30:56remember that day after my Olympic final
30:58in Sydney, the workout paper he wrote
31:01down, it said WR on the top of it. And
31:04for people who don't know, that means
31:06world record.
31:08And I was like, "What's this?" He goes,
31:10"You're going to break a world record in
31:116 months."
31:13I was like, "Okay, sure. let's see what
31:16happens.
31:17Sure enough, six months later, I break a
31:19world record. So, like again, like
31:21that's where the whole trust really
31:23really opened up. Um but but you know, I
31:27think through you know, from the time I
31:29got with him to the time I was 15,
31:34he basically just broke my strokes
31:37completely apart.
31:39Um like he started from scratch. Uh, you
31:43know, I I had some good things going on
31:45with my body and how I swam and the
31:48reach. Obviously, I have super long
31:50arms, long wingspan. Short legs, really
31:53strong legs. Um, short but wide. My
31:56[clears throat] my quads are huge. Um,
32:00so for me, like when I got to him at 11
32:02years old, I I still remember back in
32:04the day. So the people who don't
32:05understand swimming, a six beat kick is
32:10three kicks per one stroke. So it's one,
32:14two, three with your legs per one
32:16stroke. So he was teaching me the
32:18importance of a six beat kick. It wasn't
32:19at 11. I forget what age it was, but um
32:24he said, "Every time you drop your legs
32:25in a practice and you don't do a six
32:27beat kick, I'm going to kick you out."
32:30And the first day I got through like 500
32:33of a 6,000 yard workout. Kicked me out.
32:37Next day 2,000 kicked me out. Next day
32:392500, kicked me out. Next day 3,000
32:41kicked me out. Next day 4,000 kicked me
32:43out. By the end of the week, I got to a
32:45full workout. And from that day forward,
32:48I never dropped my feet for a single
32:50stroke of freestyle for the rest of my
32:53career.
32:55Did I agree with what he was doing? No.
32:56It sucked getting kicked out. It was
32:58absolutely miserable sitting there
32:59watching my friends train and and and be
33:02in a practice. But I learned the
33:04importance of the small technical points
33:07that you have to have in order to be
33:10able to go wherever you want to go,
33:13right? Like it's almost like a college
33:15level class. you can't take the thousand
33:17level class without taking the one
33:18through nine, right? Like, so there's a
33:20process through it all. And he taught me
33:22that process throughout my career and we
33:25were able just to sharpen up those
33:26tools, right? Like that's really all it
33:28became. Um because, you know, throughout
33:32my career, we ended ended up just trying
33:34to shave off hundreds of a second. How
33:36do you shave off 5100s of a second?
33:39>> Is it a turn? Is it a kick? Is it a
33:41streamline? What is it? Is it dive
33:43angle? like h what how do we do it right
33:46so it's trial and error but it all
33:48started from those years
33:51um when we first started working
33:52together I mean whether it was mindset
33:55whether it was goal setting whether it
33:56was preparation routines
34:00um you know that's where stretching came
34:02into play all that stuff to to just get
34:05your body prepared um my warm-ups were
34:08the same at every single meet from the
34:10time that I was 13 or 14 to the time I
34:13retired It didn't change. 8642 or 6442
34:18every single warm-up.
34:20>> Who was more ambitious? You or your
34:22coach?
34:25>> Uh,
34:29you could probably say both of us at
34:31different stages of my career [snorts]
34:34because I think leading up to 2008,
34:38I don't think there was anybody more
34:39ambitious than me. post like ' 04 or '
34:4308 to 2012, he was way more ambitious.
34:47He wanted and I just wanted nothing to
34:49do with the sport. Um, and then when I
34:52came back, I think we both wanted it.
34:54When I came back to finish in 16, um, we
34:59were both equally as hungry and wanting
35:02to do
35:04or wanting to finish, I guess, what we
35:06had started the right way. Um because I
35:10mean I I've said this and I'll say it a
35:12thousand times more. Like there's not a
35:14coach on this planet that could have
35:19helped me
35:21coached me to be able to do what I was
35:24able to do. Not a single person. I was
35:26an [ __ ] I was a little [ __ ] to
35:28coach. I know it. And he'd say it too.
35:31Um and I'd say the same about him. But,
35:33you know, I think again like it's the
35:35passion that we had and and we learned a
35:38lot about each other through the
35:39process, right? It was, you know, he had
35:41to adapt, I had to adapt cuz I wasn't
35:43that 11-year-old kid that he once
35:45started working with when I was 30,
35:47>> right? So,
35:48>> just that change that we had to go
35:50through was was
35:52um was important for us to have the the
35:55relationship that we had for as long as
35:57we had. you your coach also said people
36:01around you everybody to not to say the
36:03word Olympic. What was when was that?
36:05What was that story?
36:07>> I mean my mom when I made the Olympic
36:10team in 2000 she like fully decorated
36:14the front yard with like all these
36:15American flags and like this that and
36:17the other. And my mom was or my coaches
36:20Bob goes this is the last time you're
36:21ever going to do this.
36:23>> Never again. Um,
36:26>> and and I think because it's like
36:29>> I mean I think looking back at it now I
36:31would say because the goal wasn't just
36:33to make the Olympic team. That wasn't
36:35the goal. The goal was to win an Olympic
36:38gold medal. Not just be a part of the
36:41Olympic Games, but win the Olympic
36:44Games, be a champion at the Olympic
36:46Games. So, I think once you get caught
36:49up in just making the Olympic team, then
36:52sometimes you might slip and not pay
36:54attention to the small details that are
36:56going to help you be your best self at
36:58the Olympic Games, right? Like I I mean,
37:00I see it in I see it with athletes that
37:03have been on Olympic teams with me,
37:05right? Like they have this dream of
37:06making an Olympic team. It's making an
37:09that's it. Just getting there. It's not
37:12actually
37:14doing my best time at the Olympic Games
37:17and potentially coming home with
37:18hardware. That was my goal from day one
37:21when I had my first Olympic race.
37:23>> You got to go.
37:25>> Yes. But it's how do I get faster than
37:28my trials swim, right? For me, I wanted
37:31to drop. So, in the US, we have Olympic
37:33trials and top two people in each
37:36individual event get to go. There's over
37:402,000 swimmers that at that Olympic
37:42trials and a maximum of 52 people will
37:45be on Olympic team. 52 out of 2000 plus
37:49>> and those 2,000 will also come from like
37:51>> all over the place. Yeah. So like but
37:54like you know I think it it's just like
37:56God I just lost a train of thought. What
37:57was I talking about?
37:59>> You're talking about your Olympic
38:02>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Okay. Now I got it. Um
38:04>> you always wanted to just win the medal.
38:05So yeah, but like for me like when I
38:08made my first Olympic team in 2000, it
38:10was about
38:12dropping a second from Olympic trials to
38:15the Olympic Games. Drop one second. If I
38:18can do that, then I'm in I'm in the
38:22realm of winning an Olympic medal,
38:24right? So
38:26I dropped 981 100s of a second and I
38:29missed a medal by less than 3/10.
38:34and I had to wait another four years to
38:36have another chance.
38:38>> How did you feel like you were 15 when
38:40you entered Olympics? You were the
38:42youngest in the world to do that.
38:43>> Youngest since 1932.
38:45>> And then you you end up coming fifth,
38:50sixth, fifth. How did you feel? First
38:54time 15year-old youngest person fifth.
38:57>> Pissed.
38:59[clears throat] Upset. They gave me a
39:00piece of paper like you have in front of
39:01you that says, "Good job. You competed.
39:03you got fifth. I don't want to get
39:05fifth. I'm not there to get fifth. I'm
39:07not I'm there to hear my national anthem
39:10play. That's it. I mean, obviously that
39:12was a stretch for me at that time. But I
39:15think having that opportunity of getting
39:16fifth and representing my country and
39:20being at the biggest stage at such a
39:21young age, I think just only prepared me
39:23naturally for what was going to come.
39:25>> But you messed up in your first Olympics
39:27game, right? I think you you forgot your
39:30paper.
39:30>> Oh, yeah. I forgot my credential. Well,
39:32I didn't forget my credential. I took my
39:33roommates's credential. Um, I was
39:36roommates with another one of the
39:38younger guys in the team and and uh I we
39:42had our credentials just on like the
39:43handle of a door and I just ended up
39:46grabbing his instead of mine. We look
39:48nothing alike. So, uh I ended up going
39:51to the pool and they wouldn't let me in
39:53the pool. I didn't have my credential.
39:56I tried to go back to the village and I
39:58couldn't get on the bus or get back in
40:00the village because I didn't have a
40:02photo of me on my credential.
40:04[sighs and gasps]
40:05So, that kind of delayed my warm-up and
40:08my process of getting ready um the
40:12slightest bit. And I mean, I don't think
40:14that threw me off. I mean, because still
40:16I
40:16>> didn't even tie my suit before the race.
40:18My my strings of my suit were just
40:20tucked into my like the top of my suit,
40:22which is I mean, they're not going to
40:24fall off. The suits are so tight and so
40:26small. They are not going to fall off.
40:28No shot. But I mean, I just wasn't
40:31prepared. You know, I think the biggest
40:33thing I learned from that moment is is
40:35just understanding what needs to take
40:37place at the most pressured moment,
40:40right? You know, like for me, yeah, I've
40:42gone to the Olympic trials, but I never
40:45experience what an Olympic Games was,
40:47what a swim meet on different soil feels
40:52like. And especially in Australia where
40:55swimming is the number one sport, right?
40:56I mean, the floor was shaking. I
40:58remember it vividly. The floor was
41:00shaking because there was an Australian
41:01in my heat next to me who ended up
41:03getting third. I mean, like literally
41:05like the it was it was vibrating. There
41:07was 18,000 people on one side and then
41:10all the media and the dignitaries were
41:12on the left. And yeah, I mean like
41:15everything just threw me off. Like
41:16>> what was going on in your mind? I was a
41:18deer in headlights, just scared, not
41:21really knowing what the hell to do, but
41:23I knew that I had to just get up on the
41:25block and race. Um, and that was
41:27something that, you know, still to this
41:28day, like I miss like I I loved I loved
41:32competing. I loved racing more than
41:34anything on the planet. A chance for me
41:37to get up versus the rest of the world
41:39or versus the like my teammates, my
41:41competitors in the US and have a chance
41:44to show who is the best. Yes. every
41:46single time because naturally like I'll
41:48always go to that that next level
41:52because I I I don't like to lose. So
41:54yeah, getting fifth it was terrible. It
41:57sucked. But again, like I truly believe
42:00had I got a medal
42:032004 might have been different,
42:05>> right? You know, like me falling short
42:08of a goal there
42:11probably gave me more motivation to rip
42:14into that next four years to make sure I
42:18don't have that feeling again. I don't
42:21have that sadness or that disappointment
42:23again. Yeah, it took me a lot to just to
42:26make the Olympic team, but still like
42:27getting there again. You got to wait
42:29four years.
42:31I don't want to wait another four years.
42:33So again, like I want everything to be
42:34perfect when I have that chance. And I
42:36think having 2000, I think gave me the
42:38chance to do my trial run in 2004 to
42:42prepare for what was to come in 2008.
42:46>> So when you [clears throat] when you
42:48came fifth with a paper, you came home
42:50and now you're like,
42:51>> I don't even know where that paper is.
42:53>> Whatever that thing was, right?
42:54>> Honestly, like it's just like a like a
42:56participation.
42:57>> Like it's just like here and I'm like
43:01>> I don't want it. And then you came home
43:03and you're thinking like 2004 is going
43:06to be my year. I'm going to come back
43:07home with gold medal. If I could place a
43:11camera in your head, what was going on
43:13in your head? Like first day when you
43:15just came back from
43:16>> Well, I knew it. You know, like back to
43:18that story of getting back into training
43:20the day after, you know, that's
43:22something that that naturally athletes
43:26don't do coming off an Olympic games,
43:28right? Like you you kind of
43:32take that four weeks like 2 to four,
43:36four to six weeks, four to eight weeks
43:39kind of just to recover to get back into
43:41that cycle um to prepare for an Olympic
43:44games. But for me it was right back into
43:48it because I in the sport of swimming
43:52when you miss one day it takes you two
43:55days to get back to where you were. So
43:58if you miss two months, it's going to
44:00take you four months to get back to
44:02where you were. So for me, from 2000
44:06into 2001, I didn't miss a step, right?
44:10I was right back into training. I mean,
44:12I went back into training. I mean, I
44:14would say I probably did a 5K, over 5K.
44:17I think I did like 8200s or 10200s
44:20backstroke long course in lane one in
44:24the Sydney warm-up pool the day after
44:26the 200 fly in 2000.
44:29And on the top of the paper it said WR
44:32in 6 months at nationals. And I went to
44:35nationals 6 months later which are world
44:37championship trials
44:40um for that following summer in Japan.
44:44And the last 50 I came back on the
44:49existing world record holder at the
44:50time, Tom Malachchow, and I ran him down
44:54with 10 15 meters to go. Um, and I broke
44:57the world record, 15492.
45:00Um, and that kind of catapulted me into
45:03that next summer. I won my first world
45:06championship at 16 and rebroke the world
45:08record. Um, and then from that point
45:10forward, rebroke it in 2002, rebroke it
45:13in 2003, rebroke it in 2004 when I won
45:16the gold medal. Um, it was just, did I?
45:21No, I didn't break it. I didn't break it
45:23in 2000. Not not winning the gold medal,
45:25but I did break it in that year. In that
45:27calendar year, I just went on a tear.
45:30Um, and I think kind of once I got that
45:32taste of success, like I was saying
45:34earlier, that was, you know, for me it
45:36was what else can I do? How much faster
45:40can I go? And I think that's when we
45:42started expanding and swimming different
45:44events, right? Like I was swimming the
45:45200 IM. I started swimming the 400 IM,
45:47the 100 fly, the 200 free, the 200 back.
45:51Um, in 2008 I was the American record
45:54holder in the 100 freestyle. Um, I just
45:57became super versatile and that was
45:59something that we started back early
46:01when I was working with Bob. Um, because
46:03we had a goal back then of trying to be
46:06top 10 in the world in every single
46:08stroke,
46:10butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke, and
46:11freestyle.
46:15>> But you took four days off from 2000 to
46:172004
46:19>> pretty. Yeah. because I had wisdom teeth
46:22[snorts]
46:23>> and I think maybe like I wouldn't even
46:25say I got sick. Like I I mean even if I
46:27was sick, I was still in the water. I
46:29was still training. Um
46:31>> because you're so obsessed with training
46:32and you believe that even one day off is
46:35going to take you two days back. Why Why
46:37do you even take 4 days off then?
46:38>> Well, I had to uh I mean I had to later
46:41in my career for certain surgeries. I
46:43had hand surgeries throughout my career.
46:45Um, but I think at that point it was if
46:49I'm not taking the opportunity that I
46:51have, then somebody else is going to
46:52take that opportunity away from me. And
46:55I want the opportunity to be mine. So
46:57for me, it was, you know, I think it was
47:00all about control. What can you control?
47:02I can control not getting sick by taking
47:05care of my body, right? So I think
47:07naturally over time I learned how to
47:09take care of my body.
47:10>> But did you feel guilty
47:12>> on the days when you were off? Do you
47:14feel bad? Like [ __ ] Like
47:16>> it sucks. Yeah. Like I mean it sucked
47:18because I was missing an opportunity and
47:20a chance, but once you're going through
47:22surgery, if you have surgery, then it's
47:24kind of like you need to give your body
47:27some kind of recovery. Um
47:30I don't think it really hurt taking
47:34those days off. Um because I think then
47:37after that it was like I went on a
47:40six-year stretch where I didn't miss a
47:42single day. Um,
47:45and a lot of people say why, and I say
47:48why not, right? There's no blueprint on
47:50how to win eight gold medals. There's no
47:52blueprint on how to break 39 world
47:54records. There's no blueprint on how to
47:56win 23 Olympic gold medals. Um, the only
47:59thing you can do is trial and error.
48:01>> And for me, yeah, I mean, I I would say
48:04I became obsessed, but I think it's that
48:07fine line between obsession and
48:08passionate that I always flirted with.
48:11Um, and I I was over I was overly
48:14passionate about trying to be the
48:15absolute best. You know, for me at such
48:18a young age, I I I had a goal of of
48:23doing something that no one has ever
48:24done in the sport and also changing the
48:27sport and taking it to a new level. So,
48:29there wasn't going to be anybody that
48:30was going to stand in my way of doing
48:32that. you know, I I looked up to Michael
48:34Jordan and what he did, you know, on the
48:36court of or on the basketball court and
48:38and you know, no matter what he was
48:40going through physically, mentally,
48:42personally, um you know, when he was out
48:45there performing, he left every single
48:46ounce on the basketball court. You know,
48:48he had the flu and the flu game still
48:50dropped what, 50, 40, 45. Like, yeah,
48:54right. Like there was just no excuses,
48:56right? So, um for me, every single day
49:00is an opportunity to get better. No
49:02matter how yesterday went, if you had a
49:04bad day yesterday, today is a different
49:06day. Period. That's it. You can't live
49:09in the past and you can't live in the
49:10future. The only thing you can do is
49:11live in the present. Walk me through
49:13four or five techniques or certain
49:16things that you would do in that five,
49:17six years of training where you were
49:20truly preparing to win gold. You know,
49:22I'll tell before you actually go there,
49:24I'll tell you one of the most watched
49:27Michael Phelps video is a clip by me
49:31which is funny on the internet
49:32[laughter]
49:33because I was researching for this this
49:35uh podcast and I I typed on YouTube the
49:38most watched Michael Fip and in that
49:39clip I'm explaining where in one
49:42interview he said that there was there
49:44was a phase in your life probably six
49:46seven years where
49:49somebody's asking you that what was the
49:52what's the reason of your success? Why
49:53do you win? And you say just train every
49:55day.
49:56>> Yeah.
49:56>> And they say
49:57>> it's the small things. Yeah. I mean
49:58>> and then you said no train every day.
50:01>> Yeah.
50:01>> No Christmas.
50:03>> Yeah.
50:03>> No party, nothing, no flute, just train
50:06every day. And that that clip is really
50:08for some reason.
50:09>> Explain me what happens in those six
50:11years.
50:12>> I mean it's it's it basically really is
50:14what can you control? What is in your
50:16control every single day? And it's like
50:19you're eating, you're sleeping, you're
50:20drinking water, you're stretching if
50:22you're sore, you're lifting if you're
50:24trying to get stronger, you're working
50:26on your endurance and staying in your
50:28endurance level, working on heart rate
50:29if that's what you're trying to improve.
50:31There are so many different little small
50:32things that you can do depending on what
50:34your goals are. [gasps]
50:36So for me, it's it's how can I be
50:39prepared every single day, right? So
50:41like if I go back to that point, you
50:42know, after the 2000 Olympic Games, like
50:45it wasn't, you know, it was probably
50:462002, 2003 where I started doing ice
50:50tubs, right? So it's recovery. How can I
50:54how can I recover my body and my mind
50:56every single day to make sure that my
50:59body, if I'm treating it like a Ferrari
51:01and I want it to go that fast every
51:03single day,
51:06I have to recover. I have to treat my
51:08body with with love, right? So, if I'm
51:11not eating, if I'm not stretching, if
51:12I'm not drinking water, if I'm not
51:14sleeping, if I'm not staying off my
51:15feet, if I'm not all of these small
51:18things, then I don't have a chance to be
51:20my best during those two to four hours
51:22when I'm in the pool every single day.
51:24So, it it became literally a full-time
51:26job the age of 15, 16 because I mean, I
51:30was professional at 15 or 16 years old.
51:33So, I treated it like a job. Um,
51:36everything I did was eat, sleep, and
51:38swim. Sure. I was in school. Um, I I I
51:42was in school through high school and
51:43then I took six months of credits at
51:47Michigan and decided that I needed to
51:49focus on swimming and that's what I did.
51:52Um, but yeah, I mean like it was
51:55>> your coach like green
51:56>> but like we'd start in the morning with
51:57a training session and then I would go
52:00and eat a bunch of plates of food for
52:04breakfast just to recover from the, you
52:06know, 7500 yard workout we just did. Um,
52:12go home, take a nap, wake up,
52:16eat something else,
52:19go back to the pool,
52:21train for two hours,
52:23go home,
52:25eat, sleep, wake up, and do it all over
52:27again. It literally like it became a job
52:29at such a young age
52:31>> every day for six years.
52:32>> Every day.
52:33>> Yeah.
52:34>> So, but your coach also created
52:36adversities during the training. What
52:39was what was it like? Why would you
52:40train like
52:43like put do it in the dark,
52:46>> do it without water, do it
52:47>> I mean like there were so many different
52:49things he tried to do just to phys or
52:51just to mentally prepare us I think for
52:53things that we were going to go through
52:55or could potentially go through.
52:57>> Tell me what's three.
52:58>> Um I mean like he would break my goggles
53:01or step on my goggles on purpose to
53:03teach me to make sure I had a backup
53:05pair. And naturally in 2008, my goggles
53:09fill up with water as soon as I dive in.
53:11And I had to revert back to a training a
53:15training habit that I did to help me
53:18count strokes to get through that race.
53:20And naturally, I hit the wall at the
53:23right time, but I was able to win and I
53:26was able to break the world record, too.
53:27So, you know, I think the things that he
53:30did like breaking my goggles or um you
53:34know, like I I I've had my suit rip,
53:36right? And and you know, during that
53:39time, if you're getting ready for an
53:40Olympic final or a world championship
53:42final and your suit rips, your emotions
53:45are going to change, right? So, I was
53:48able to then because of what I went
53:50through, whether it's from the breaking
53:52the goggles or or, you know, going 10
53:56workouts a week where I'm going 10,000
53:59meters every single session and going
54:01100k, bang, bang, bang, just every week.
54:04Um, I think it it just gets you
54:09relaxed in those super highressured,
54:11tense moments when all of these lights
54:13are on and there's millions of people
54:15staring at you. Oh, and by the way,
54:17we're swimmers, so we're half naked, you
54:19know. So, it's like
54:21>> [snorts]
54:21>> um but but I think that's what it was.
54:23Like he was just uh he was obsessed with
54:25with being overprepared.
54:27Um
54:29you know, yeah, it's probably a little
54:32psychotic in ways, but um you know,
54:36looking back at it, I I understand why
54:39he did what he did, why he challenged me
54:42mentally.
54:44um
54:46when things were uncomfortable, right?
54:48Like, you know, I remember having to
54:49swim without goggles. It sucks. Your
54:52eyes hurt, right? Like they burn after
54:55swimming for two hours without goggles.
54:56Trying to swim a race without goggles.
54:58No, it's not fun. Um
55:01but after doing that, like I I learned
55:05and naturally like my cap rips at the
55:07Olympic final as I'm getting ready to
55:09get up on the block for the 4x200 free
55:12relay.
55:14I have to naturally calm myself. I asked
55:18for uh a teammate's cap and I know that
55:22I can't represent his brand and I know I
55:24can't represent his name. So, I had to
55:26flip the cap inside out and just some
55:29with a black cap. But in that moment,
55:32you're calm because you prepared for it,
55:34right? So, like I mean even like
55:36visualization visualization is something
55:38that that we did my whole my whole
55:40entire career. Uh, and it would be three
55:43different ways. How you want or you
55:45would play three different tapes. How
55:47you want the race to go, how you don't
55:49want the race to go,
55:52and what if, right? And how and and and
55:55what if this happens in the race, how do
55:57you how do you adapt, how do you adjust,
55:59right? So, it doesn't matter what
56:00happens. Whenever I get there, I'm
56:02prepared. If I lose, if my cat rips, my
56:04goggles break, if they fill up with
56:06water, it doesn't matter because my
56:08emotions will stay in check. And if you
56:10can handle your emotions in the most
56:12tense, pressured situations, then you're
56:14able to be the best version of you,
56:15right? So, like, you know, going back to
56:172008, I think it was, you know, for me,
56:19I think it was, you know, lacking better
56:21terms, it was like I I was in the
56:23matrix. Like literally time slowed down.
56:26Like I was just like, "All right, cool."
56:28Like, I'm more prepared. Let's go.
56:33But it's preparation. And it's again,
56:35yeah, had I not done those six years, I
56:37probably don't get the exact results
56:39that I had. You know, like we always,
56:42this is something that that um I always
56:45hope that people can relate to, but um
56:48when you're trying to accomplish a goal,
56:51you know, obviously it's not going to
56:52happen like that. It's not going to
56:54happen overnight.
56:56There has to be like little short
56:57intermals
56:59through that process to reach the big
57:01goal. So through that process, my coach
57:03and I would always say, you know, coming
57:06to practice, that's a deposit into the
57:09bank, right? And four years from now, I
57:13hope our bank account is massive because
57:16when we go to the Olympic Games, I want
57:18to withdraw that whole entire account
57:20and just put it on the table and say,
57:22"Let's go."
57:23>> Right? So, it's again, it's just a way
57:25of looking at preparation and what
57:26you're doing every single day because
57:28greatness is really it's just a bunch of
57:30small things that are done well stacked
57:32upon on top of each other. That's it.
57:34It's really not that hard.
57:35>> Um,
57:36>> you said he was almost psychotic. What's
57:38the most psychotic thing he did?
57:41>> [sighs]
57:42>> I mean, but [clears throat] him and I
57:43have gotten in so many different
57:44arguments and and
57:48I mean, it's almost like we were like a
57:50married couple, you know, just like
57:52fighting over like the smallest little
57:53things. Like, it's crazy. Um,
57:57I mean, [sighs]
57:59I remember there was a time,
58:02uh, I forget how old I was, but I mean,
58:04like I said, I was a little [ __ ]
58:07>> and we were doing 400's free long course
58:12and I was supposed to be going like
58:15under 425 or around like 420 and uh I I
58:21wasn't. I was just going slower and just
58:23pissing him off on purpose. Um, and he
58:27was like, "You're going to go you're
58:28going to go these times or we're going
58:30to start over." And I had like 10 or 15
58:33seconds before the timer went off where
58:34we were about to do the next repeat. And
58:36I looked at the clock and I just didn't
58:39say anything. And right as I was getting
58:41ready to push off, I just said no. I
58:44went back under the water. [snorts] And
58:46naturally, when I was training, I always
58:48had to bilateral breathe. I had to
58:49breathe on both sides. Um, so he was on
58:52my left side. I'd have to go three
58:55right, three left.
58:57So I ended up switching it that day cuz
59:00I went three on my right
59:02>> and then I went to my left and saw him
59:04the first time and I was like, "Fuck
59:05that. I ain't going back to that side."
59:07And [laughter] just kept breathing to my
59:09right. I'll never forget he came down to
59:11the other end, was chasing, throwing his
59:13arms up in the air, whistling, whistling
59:15like crazy. and he threw a bunch of
59:18kickboards and pool boys down on top of
59:20me as I was pulling or as I was flip
59:22turning. I just kept swimming. I just
59:24kept swimming. Um, we had a talk shortly
59:27after that. [laughter]
59:29uh we both expressed some frustration
59:31but um you know again I think it was
59:33just the passion that we both had and
59:35and uh I wouldn't change it because you
59:39know I'm sure I did some things that
59:42that pissed him off and frustrated him
59:44throughout our time together and
59:46likewise there are some things that he
59:48did that pissed me off and and
59:51um you know if you asked me if I would
59:55change anything that I did or do it
59:57differently in any way, shape, or form.
59:59I wouldn't
1:00:01>> um not at all. You know, I think it's
1:00:02it's kind of allowed me to
1:00:05uh be the person who I am now and feel
1:00:08comfortable in my own skin. So, um and I
1:00:10was able to learn a lot through again
1:00:13the craziness that we went through. I
1:00:15mean, I've thrown water bottles at him.
1:00:17Like, it's it's been bad. Like, I I'm
1:00:20really sorry, Grandpa. Um sorry I'm
1:00:23bringing this all out. People have seen
1:00:24videos of it, though. Um cuz that was on
1:00:26a video. that was on a a documentary
1:00:29that we did.
1:00:30>> Um, no, it's just it's it's the passion
1:00:34and again it's the frustration because
1:00:37>> um for us we were trying to work in
1:00:40hundreds of a second, right? You know,
1:00:41like two of my Olympic medals were won
1:00:44combined by 5100s of a second, right? I
1:00:47won the 2,400 fly by 4100s and the 2,800
1:00:51fly by 100th.
1:00:53>> Right place at the right time. Yeah, for
1:00:55sure. But it's also hitting the wall at
1:00:57the right place at the right time with
1:00:58the right amount of force, momentum, and
1:01:00speed. But it's also being able to judge
1:01:03when to go all out and when not over
1:01:05swim a race and this that and the other.
1:01:07So again, it's like everything we did,
1:01:09it was it was a full-blown chess match.
1:01:12Um, and we were able to
1:01:15damn near perfected or I only I broke
1:01:18seven world records and won eight gold
1:01:20medals. It should have been 8 for8 in
1:01:22'08, but it was 8 for seven in '08. So,
1:01:26um, but yeah, it was it was awesome. And
1:01:29I think again, like having the
1:01:31opportunities that I had later in life,
1:01:33whether it's 04, 12, or 16. I don't like
1:01:35talking about 12 cuz I hate that
1:01:37Olympics cuz I didn't swim very well.
1:01:39Um, but it wouldn't have been possible
1:01:42without those things that I did back in
1:01:44the early 2000s, right? like you know
1:01:47from ' 04 or 2000 to04 and then that
1:01:50transition from 04 to08 when we were at
1:01:53University of Michigan and and um you
1:01:55know we assembled the training group
1:01:57that we had there with I mean that was
1:01:59one of the most iconic training groups
1:02:01you know in my opinion um that we've had
1:02:04there was every single day there was
1:02:06there was a handful of the guys that
1:02:08were just going at each other um and by
1:02:10by saying at each other it was just
1:02:13competition after competition after
1:02:15competition every single stroke that you
1:02:17took during practice and it was it was
1:02:19something that I just thrived from. I I
1:02:21loved being in that kind of environment.
1:02:23>> You know what I really love about you
1:02:25and your coach partnership? The more I
1:02:27read about it, I was telling you what I
1:02:28really love about you and your coach,
1:02:30you both kept each other on very high
1:02:33standards. There was an incident I was
1:02:35reading where he didn't show up because
1:02:37he was sick and you texted him that
1:02:40why would I have a coach if I have to
1:02:42coach myself? [laughter] That's why I
1:02:44said like I was ruthless. Like I was
1:02:47absolutely ruthless. I was such a jerk.
1:02:50Um but it was like any any time that I
1:02:53had the chance to come back at him, I I
1:02:56took it. Um and I was like I remember
1:02:59that I was like why the hell am I
1:03:00swimming for somebody else? Like you're
1:03:02my coach. Like if you're not here, why
1:03:03the [ __ ] am I here? I think I literally
1:03:06said that. Um also to the point because
1:03:09I I knew it would piss him off. M
1:03:11>> like there would be times where I would
1:03:13just say things on purpose to make him
1:03:16mad
1:03:18>> because it was fun and I just enjoyed
1:03:20it. Um I enjoyed getting under his skin.
1:03:22Um
1:03:24>> and I also knew that if I did ever want
1:03:27to get kicked out and [clears throat] I
1:03:29didn't like the practice that I could
1:03:31make him pissed off and say something
1:03:33and he would he would he would toss me.
1:03:36So um there weren't many times like
1:03:40that. Yeah, I mean I there I I knew what
1:03:43to say um to get a reaction
1:03:48>> and that's what I wanted. I wanted a
1:03:49reaction
1:03:50>> and and one thing that you just
1:03:52mentioned and your coach you guys did
1:03:54almost every day. There was the
1:03:56videotape technique, the visualization
1:03:58in your head.
1:03:59>> Yeah.
1:03:59>> Walk me through it. If somebody who's
1:04:02watching this right now, someone like me
1:04:05who wants to become an absolute champion
1:04:07in whatever they are doing,
1:04:09[clears throat] what is that
1:04:10visualization technique like? What would
1:04:11you do?
1:04:12>> Sit down in your room every day.
1:04:14>> I would just lay down. It would be like,
1:04:18you know, like if I'm getting ready to
1:04:19go to practice or, you know, if I just
1:04:22have like 30 minutes to lay down on the
1:04:24couch or lay down on my bed and just
1:04:25visualize, it would just be
1:04:27>> So, what are you thinking? Let's say
1:04:28just walk around. So it would be like
1:04:30>> what's going on in your head right now?
1:04:32>> Like in a perfect situation like say I'm
1:04:35swimming the 200 butterfly. If I'm
1:04:36swimming the 200 butterfly, like what
1:04:38does a perfect race look like? A perfect
1:04:40race looks like a great start, good
1:04:42entry, 8 to 10 dolphin kicks, pop up
1:04:46right before 15 m, take 16 to 17
1:04:49strokes, that first 50, hit the wall
1:04:51with speed and momentum on a full
1:04:54stroke. Um get out into open water. um
1:04:58kind of make the the rest of the
1:05:00competitors deal with my wake and my
1:05:03waves and make them fight through that
1:05:05so it's harder for them and they have to
1:05:06use more energy. Um
1:05:10hitting the wall, breaking a world
1:05:11record, how the race doesn't or you know
1:05:14Yeah. I mean like the perfect scenario
1:05:16like no matter what it is, are you going
1:05:18in for a work pitch and you're trying to
1:05:20get your company to or you're trying to
1:05:22get another company to sign your
1:05:24company? Yeah. then it's a home run.
1:05:26Like the you know how like the perfect
1:05:28video is your vision of it going
1:05:31perfectly how you want it to, how you
1:05:34dream it to be. How you don't want it to
1:05:36go is [snorts]
1:05:38you get touched out by a hundth of a
1:05:41second because you screwed up a wall or
1:05:45you misjudged a turn or you didn't have
1:05:50the right start or your preparation
1:05:52wasn't good, your warm-up wasn't good,
1:05:55right? Like all of those things. So,
1:05:57it's trying to almost really make sure
1:05:59your ducks are in a in a line and every
1:06:03little small piece of that puzzle is fit
1:06:05into the right spot. Uh, and then how
1:06:08the race could go would be
1:06:11what if I
1:06:14wake up and they don't like all of a
1:06:17sudden they don't have the same food
1:06:19that I've been eating every other day?
1:06:21Or what if I wake up 20 minutes late? Or
1:06:24what if my suit rips? or what if my cat
1:06:26rips or what if I get sick, right? All
1:06:30of these things are already played out.
1:06:34So once I get to the Olympics or once I
1:06:37get to World Championships,
1:06:39if it does happen, I'm like, "All right,
1:06:41cool. If I get sick, doc, what do I need
1:06:44to do?" Right? Like we got team doctor,
1:06:47what do I need to do to make sure I can
1:06:48get out there to compete and be my best?
1:06:50Um all of those Yeah. I mean, it's it's
1:06:53again, it's it's another form of
1:06:54preparation because I feel like if you
1:06:58get into a situation that you're not
1:07:00prepared for or you haven't thought of,
1:07:02then you're not able to be your best
1:07:03self.
1:07:04>> Yeah.
1:07:04>> So, I guess in a long way of saying it,
1:07:06it's controlling the controllables,
1:07:09you know, like controlling the
1:07:10controllables is something that that uh
1:07:12a dear friend of mine, Greg Harden,
1:07:14taught me uh back in 2004. And it it's
1:07:19really just such an easy quote and a
1:07:21powerful quote because you can really
1:07:23relate it to so many things in life,
1:07:25right? Like if I'm thirsty, right, you
1:07:28saw my water just explodes. I was trying
1:07:29to break the ice, so I'm going to have a
1:07:30drink of water, right? Like if I'm
1:07:32tired, I'm going to go take a nap or I'm
1:07:33going to go to bed earlier tonight than
1:07:35I did last night. It's literally that
1:07:36simple. What do you need to get ready
1:07:38for a meeting? X, Y, and Z. You have a
1:07:40list. Do those three things. If you
1:07:42don't do those three things, you're not
1:07:43fully prepared. You're going to go to
1:07:44that meeting and you're going to be
1:07:45like, "Ah, [ __ ] I wish I would have
1:07:47done that. Well, tough break because you
1:07:48didn't. Right? So, and if you don't
1:07:50learn from doing it that way to get
1:07:53ready for the next time, then what are
1:07:55you doing, right? So, it's it's it's
1:07:57just it's different ways to look at
1:07:59preparation. And for me, again, like I
1:08:01became obsessed with it because I wanted
1:08:04to have the opportunity to be great. I
1:08:06didn't want anybody else to take that
1:08:07opportunity from me. I wanted to earn
1:08:09it. So, I prepared and I worked harder
1:08:11than anybody else did. Period. But would
1:08:14you play every day in your head that
1:08:17you're winning the perfect race?
1:08:20I mean, that's just like
1:08:22>> that's just for big meets. Like I'm just
1:08:24doing I'm just visualizing for big
1:08:26meets. I'm not doing it for every day.
1:08:28Like
1:08:29>> like I'm not laying in bed tonight and
1:08:31being like, "Ah, what's a perfect day
1:08:33tomorrow?
1:08:34>> Not tomorrow day tomorrow. What's like
1:08:36no like it's like it's more it's more
1:08:39just like six months before a race
1:08:41before a big meet like you know just
1:08:44kind of getting ready into that mindset
1:08:46because when that moment comes again
1:08:48like yeah world championships you get a
1:08:50little bit more often than the Olympic
1:08:52games but the Olympic games you got to
1:08:54wait four years you know how long four
1:08:56years is to to just have a chance to go
1:08:58compete and represent your country at
1:09:00the Olympic stage like it sucks it's
1:09:02awful but like that's what I'm saying
1:09:04like if you're not prepared, somebody
1:09:06else is. Especially at that level,
1:09:09>> right? Cuz people do obsess, right? And
1:09:12winning a gold medal, it's what to have
1:09:15the ch Well, to win a gold medal, it's
1:09:18less than 1% of 1%. [snorts]
1:09:23>> So, but for 6 months, you would play the
1:09:26perfect
1:09:27>> perfect
1:09:27>> makeups, the failure every day in your
1:09:29head.
1:09:31So there was an incident where you won a
1:09:34goal even when your goggles almost broke
1:09:37like there were water there was water
1:09:38inside your goggles
1:09:40>> you couldn't see there was blackout and
1:09:42you still won how many times did you
1:09:44play that in your head or how many times
1:09:45did you practice with broken goggles
1:09:47before even you actually get that
1:09:48>> well I think you know when my coach
1:09:50broke my goggles and I had to swim a
1:09:52race without having a pair of goggles I
1:09:54think taught me to always have a backup
1:09:55pair and when that happened I was just
1:09:59like oh [ __ ] Okay, I guess I got to
1:10:02figure out what I'm going to do. And I
1:10:03think for me at that time,
1:10:06I reverted back to what I did in
1:10:08training because
1:10:11every single one of my 200s throughout
1:10:13my career, every one of my 200
1:10:14butterflies throughout my career when I
1:10:16was competing, first, second, third, and
1:10:18fourth 50, all were the same strokes.
1:10:2216, 17, 18, and then 19 or 20 depending
1:10:26on how many kicks I took off the last
1:10:28one. So I was like, "All right, cool.
1:10:30I'm just going to revert back to what I
1:10:31do." Because in training, we do these
1:10:33things called stroke and time 50s.
1:10:36>> So if you're trying to go 30 seconds,
1:10:38then you take 20 strokes. 29, 19, 28,
1:10:4218, 27, 17.
1:10:46So for me naturally, I just started
1:10:48counting my strokes after the first well
1:10:51I guess right when I dove in because I
1:10:53real [clears throat] I started counting
1:10:55my strokes as soon as I dove in because
1:10:56I realized that um they weren't going to
1:10:59stop leaking and also I was unable to
1:11:03take my goggles off because
1:11:07when I would swim I would wear my
1:11:10goggles
1:11:11one cap,
1:11:14two cap another cap. So, I couldn't rip
1:11:17all of it off and swim with no cap or
1:11:20goggles. It would just it would it just
1:11:22wouldn't be good. So, I ended up
1:11:24counting my strokes, hit the first wall
1:11:26at 16, second wall at 17, third wall at
1:11:2818, fourth wall was 19 or 20, I don't
1:11:31remember. Um, but ended up, yeah,
1:11:34winning a gold medal, breaking a world
1:11:35record. Um, and you can go back and look
1:11:38at that video. I I was
1:11:41honestly pissed after I saw the time.
1:11:43Why?
1:11:44>> I could have gone faster. I should have
1:11:46gone faster.
1:11:48>> I I think I could have gone at least a
1:11:49half a second faster than that for sure.
1:11:51100%. Just because of the goggles. Yeah.
1:11:54I was I was firing on all cylinders
1:11:56going into the Olympic Games.
1:11:58>> But why would you be pissed?
1:12:01>> You broke a world record. You won the
1:12:02>> I wanted
1:12:03>> I wanted to go faster.
1:12:07That's me. Like honestly, I didn't hit
1:12:09the goal that I wanted, right? The goal,
1:12:11the goal is hitting a certain time.
1:12:14>> It's not winning. It's not winning a
1:12:15gold medal because I know if I get to a
1:12:18certain time, I'm the only one that's
1:12:20thinking about doing it.
1:12:21>> I'm the only one that's doing stuff
1:12:23every single day to get there. So, if I
1:12:25hit that time, the rest will take care
1:12:27of itself. Nobody else, no, nobody else
1:12:30will win that gold medal if I do that
1:12:32time. And what was going on in your head
1:12:35at that micro second when you knew that
1:12:37goggles have
1:12:39did you went like did you go like oh
1:12:42shit's
1:12:44there was nothing I could do at that
1:12:45point. I couldn't that that was out of
1:12:48my control. The only thing I could do
1:12:51was what was in my control and that was
1:12:52try to win the race with what was at
1:12:55hand. I knew I was the most prepared
1:12:58person there. I just had to worry about
1:13:00my stroke. I had to about counting my
1:13:01strokes. That's all I did. 16
1:13:0517 18 and then bang 1920
1:13:10ripped off and I was like
1:13:131515.
1:13:15[snorts]
1:13:15I should have been 150 point. Should
1:13:17have won 150 for sure. I thought
1:13:20honestly like I I truly thought I could
1:13:22break 150 in the 200 butterfly at some
1:13:25point in my career.
1:13:26I only went 151.
1:13:29I think I could have gone a second and a
1:13:30half faster at some point in my career.
1:13:34>> That That's insane. Even after breaking
1:13:36a world record or winning goal, you
1:13:38would not be happy about it.
1:13:41>> But it's the goals, right? Like, you
1:13:43know, like
1:13:45like for me, like I I just held myself
1:13:48to such a high standard and I put the
1:13:51most pressure on myself. Like didn't
1:13:53matter what everybody else was saying or
1:13:55doing. the the mo like the one person
1:13:58who put the most amount of pressure on
1:13:59me was me because it is in my control,
1:14:04right? I'm not going to be able to skip
1:14:06two weeks, a month, 6 weeks, 8 weeks and
1:14:09just wake up one day and break a world
1:14:11record. You have to do the work. If
1:14:13you're not doing the work, then skip it.
1:14:16Do something else.
1:14:18>> Tell me tell me about that phase which a
1:14:23lot of people call it the alien phase.
1:14:25>> [laughter]
1:14:26>> which is your 2008 Beijing where you won
1:14:29eight gold medals. You competed in eight
1:14:32races and you won all of them. There's
1:14:36never been an athlete in the world till
1:14:39now who has ever gone that far and have
1:14:42won so many medals. What was what was
1:14:45that phase like that alien phase where
1:14:47everything you touch you would turn it
1:14:48into gold? I mean, yeah, during those
1:14:51games and like I guess from like 0708,
1:14:56like those two years, like I I truly
1:14:59felt I felt unbeatable in the pool. I
1:15:01really did. Um,
1:15:03>> what did you feel like?
1:15:05>> Unbeatable. Like I literally felt like
1:15:07there wasn't a single soul on the planet
1:15:09that could touch me, that could beat me.
1:15:11Um, I just felt like I was super
1:15:13prepared. Um, you know, everyone says
1:15:15it's like that 10,000 hour mark, right?
1:15:18Like I think 2007 was my 10,000 hour
1:15:21mark. Um
1:15:24and it just it just kept getting better.
1:15:25I mean 2007 those world championships in
1:15:28Melbourne were I mean I might even say
1:15:31performance-wise were better than what
1:15:33they were in in in Beijing. Um I mean
1:15:36the times that I did the amount that I
1:15:38was breaking world records by. I mean
1:15:40they were body lengths behind me. Um,
1:15:44yeah. I mean, again, it's just it's the
1:15:46preparation that I had done years prior
1:15:48that we're showing. That's all it was.
1:15:50It's right like, you know, if you go out
1:15:53and buy a piece of property and you want
1:15:55to build a house, you can't snap the
1:15:57fingers, right? You just got to put it
1:15:58up one brick at a time. And that's what
1:16:00I did one day at a time leading up to
1:16:02that point. You know, 2004 was, you
1:16:05know, obviously a learning process for
1:16:07me being Yeah, it was a great experience
1:16:08winning six gold medals. Um, but I think
1:16:13it truly just prepared me for what was
1:16:15coming in 2008 to make sure that I was
1:16:18overly prepared, obsessively prepared
1:16:22for every small detail. Um, because I
1:16:25knew how hard it was going to be to win
1:16:27seven, let alone eight.
1:16:29>> What was different about that phase?
1:16:35>> I don't know. I mean, coming off of
1:16:372004, obviously, you know, it was my
1:16:40first gold medal, right? So,
1:16:43you know, 18, 19 years of dreaming of
1:16:47winning a gold medal and it happens. Um,
1:16:50you win a couple of them, you get off of
1:16:52that Olympic Games, and then literally
1:16:55every headline is Michael Phelps fails
1:16:58because he doesn't win seven gold
1:16:59medals. And I'm like, [laughter] like,
1:17:01what are you talking about? Like, this
1:17:02is a joke. Um, honestly though, like,
1:17:06uh, you know, to just have the chance to
1:17:09win one was incredible, but you know,
1:17:11winning six in an Olympics and then
1:17:13winning eight in the next Olympics. Um,
1:17:17yeah, I was I was just prepared, you
1:17:19know, like I mean, even even going back
1:17:21to like the the the quote that Ian Thorp
1:17:23said going into 2008, he said, "No one
1:17:26will ever win eight gold medals in an
1:17:27Olympic Games." Like that for me is
1:17:29motivation,
1:17:30>> right? like everything I did during that
1:17:33time,
1:17:35you know, truly was about trying to be
1:17:37as perfect as I could. And perfect was
1:17:40going eight, eight for eight. Um, but
1:17:43again, like I I was competing against
1:17:48somebody who is pretty much fresh every
1:17:51single time, right? Like people go to
1:17:53the Olympics and they might swim one or
1:17:55two races.
1:17:55>> Exactly.
1:17:56>> Right. And I'm swimming a total of 17
1:18:00races. 18 races in eight days.
1:18:03>> Yeah, that was like insane, right? That
1:18:06that's fascinating.
1:18:08>> Like it's a full training week. Like
1:18:09during that week with all of the
1:18:11warm-ups, warm downs. So that's that's
1:18:152,000 2,000 m for warm up, 2500 m for
1:18:19warm up, 2,000 m for warm down. Is doing
1:18:21it twice a day plus all the racing. I
1:18:24mean, I'm swimming I was swimming like
1:18:2660,000 meters during a competition week.
1:18:30There are people that don't even train
1:18:3260,000 65,000 yards or meters a week.
1:18:37Period. So again, like everything I did
1:18:42from 2000
1:18:45to the first step I got with Bob from
1:18:47him destroying my strokes and recreating
1:18:50them into what they were throughout my
1:18:52whole entire career got me to that
1:18:55point. [snorts]
1:18:57So you started competing on 10th August
1:19:00and then 10 11 12 13 there was only like
1:19:02one day I think 15th August was off.
1:19:04>> I had a morning off.
1:19:06>> Yeah had a morning or I had a a morning
1:19:08or an afternoon cuz the finals were in
1:19:11the morning for that Olympics. Um where
1:19:13typically they're in the afternoon or
1:19:15night time.
1:19:16>> Uh I had one I typically had one session
1:19:19off every every uh every major major
1:19:24competition. Um and and by that point I
1:19:27needed it.
1:19:28>> Yeah. [laughter]
1:19:28>> I was so tired by the end of those
1:19:30meets, man. Um
1:19:33>> you slept did you sleep the whole day
1:19:34like on 15th when you got got an off
1:19:36between those events?
1:19:37>> Uh no, like during an off day I would
1:19:39wake up normal time. Uh I would I would
1:19:42stay on that schedule, that routine. I
1:19:45would wake up and I would have like a
1:19:47morning like a splash and I literally
1:19:49would do
1:19:51800 to a,000. Like not much. I was
1:19:54supposed to do more, but I never did.
1:19:56Um, and I would just go and just kind of
1:19:59feel just feel how I was feeling, see if
1:20:02I needed to get a little massage or
1:20:04whatever. I needed a stretch or
1:20:06something before the finals. Um,
1:20:09go have lunch,
1:20:12watch a movie, play some games. I don't
1:20:15know. Like, we were always playing
1:20:16spades or risk hearts. Um, some kind of
1:20:21game to kill time. But yeah, I mean it
1:20:23was it was a pretty normal day. I
1:20:24wouldn't really I wouldn't think about
1:20:26much. And by the time the afternoon
1:20:28came, we we always have a team meeting
1:20:31before we would go over to the final
1:20:34session. And you know, from the team
1:20:37meeting, it was headphones go on, no one
1:20:41talks to me or I don't talk to anybody.
1:20:43They might talk to me, but I I ignore
1:20:46absolutely every noise.
1:20:48>> Get to the pool about 2 hours before my
1:20:50race. stretch for about half hour, dive
1:20:53in the warm-up pool 90 minutes before my
1:20:55race, and then do my warmup, get out,
1:20:59dry off, put warm clothes on 30 minutes
1:21:02before my race, get my racing suit on,
1:21:04jump back in the pool for 3 to 500, just
1:21:07kind of stroke play, kind of feel my
1:21:09body, make sure everything's going, get
1:21:11out, walk up for the race 15, 20 minutes
1:21:13beforehand, and then bang, that's it.
1:21:16You get either
1:21:18I mean my races were anywhere from
1:21:2347 seconds to
1:21:284 minutes and 3 seconds.
1:21:32>> That's it.
1:21:33>> Did you ever feel like taking it off in
1:21:35that alien phase?
1:21:36>> Taking off?
1:21:37>> Yeah. Like an off day of training or
1:21:39maybe
1:21:40>> just you didn't feel like like today is
1:21:42not the day. I'm sure there must have
1:21:44been at least one day where you must be
1:21:45>> I mean, yeah, but I think the goals that
1:21:47I had were were
1:21:50too big. They were big enough where I
1:21:52couldn't take a day off. I couldn't.
1:21:54>> What did you tell yourself on the day
1:21:56when you were feeling sick and you
1:21:57didn't want to get out of bed?
1:21:58>> I mean, for me, like when I when I would
1:22:00get out of bed, the first things I see
1:22:01are my goal sheets. Like literally,
1:22:04first thing I wake up, they're on my
1:22:06desk. They're on my bedside table
1:22:08because I, you know, for me, I want to
1:22:10know why I'm waking up. What is the
1:22:12purpose of that day? Yeah, I might feel
1:22:14like [ __ ] but if I can get 10%, if I
1:22:16can get 20%, if I can get 50% out of
1:22:19that day, then isn't that better than
1:22:21getting zero?
1:22:22>> Yeah.
1:22:23>> You know, like as long as you're not
1:22:25taking a step backwards
1:22:27cuz if you are, try to flip that car
1:22:29around and go a different direction,
1:22:31right? Try something different. Um
1:22:33because taking steps back just it
1:22:35crushes you. Absolutely crushes you.
1:22:37>> So, what does a goal sheet of an of a
1:22:39world champion looks like? I mean, for
1:22:41me it was they were bro all of my times
1:22:44were broken down into 50s, right? So
1:22:46like if I'm swimming a hundred, it's
1:22:50broken down the first 50 and the second
1:22:5250 and then it has my total time.
1:22:53They're they're down to the hundth of a
1:22:56second.
1:22:57>> Every day you would have this.
1:22:59>> Well, I just see like I see so I would
1:23:02have short-term goals and long-term
1:23:03goals. Long-term goals are what times do
1:23:07I want to swim at the Olympic Games or
1:23:09World Championships?
1:23:11And then the short-term goals are what
1:23:13times do I need to hit this season in
1:23:16order to give me a chance at the end of
1:23:17the season to rip 154 and the 200 IM or
1:23:21155 and the 200 I am back there. Um,
1:23:25and then yeah, it's just I mean, and
1:23:28then I basically I I I wrote I I would
1:23:31write down basically 100 200 free. He
1:23:35would always make me do the mile at
1:23:36least once a year. I [ __ ] hated the
1:23:38mile. Uh 100 200 back, 100 200 fly, 200
1:23:43400 IM because I'd swim all of those
1:23:45races throughout the year and I'd
1:23:46sometimes swim a brushstroke race, too.
1:23:49Um,
1:23:50but yeah, I mean like I think for me,
1:23:53you know, for the 400 IM, I knew that I
1:23:56had to I knew that there like my strokes
1:23:59had to be at a certain level in order to
1:24:01do the times that I needed to do in the
1:24:03400 IM, right, to be able to add those
1:24:06times together to make the right splits.
1:24:08And it all came what I was doing. It all
1:24:10came from what I was doing every single
1:24:12day, right? Like if I'm going in like if
1:24:14I'm going in for a practice, my coach
1:24:16like Bob would show me the practice be
1:24:18like these are this is what we're doing
1:24:19today. We're doing 10400 back or 102 200
1:24:22back short course and the last one I
1:24:24want you to try to go 140. I'm like all
1:24:27right cool let's go 140. Um and I would
1:24:29start and just descend my way down to
1:24:31that time and he would give me goals
1:24:32every single day of what to hit in
1:24:34practice because those goals then were
1:24:37handinhand with what I was trying to do
1:24:39longterm. Right? And if I did that every
1:24:41single day, and I did, whether it was
1:24:43freestyle, backstroke, breaststroke,
1:24:45butterfly, IM, it didn't matter. I was
1:24:47doing those times back to back to back
1:24:49to back to back to back to back every
1:24:52single week.
1:24:54Why? Because nobody else was.
1:24:57>> What's the def what's the definition of
1:24:59insanity? Doing the same thing over and
1:25:01over again, expecting different results.
1:25:03I was doing different things over and
1:25:04over again, expecting different results.
1:25:07I knew I was going to get him because
1:25:09again, there wasn't another person on
1:25:11the planet that was more prepared for me
1:25:12in those last in those two decades of my
1:25:15of my career on this planet. There just
1:25:17wasn't. That's why I was able to have
1:25:20the success that I did.
1:25:21>> Was it all about competing yourself, the
1:25:24old version of you, or was it about
1:25:26competing with other people who would
1:25:28come as your competition in the Olympics
1:25:31game?
1:25:33>> I was competing. Were you competing
1:25:35about against yourself or others?
1:25:37>> No, I was competing against a clock.
1:25:40That's it. Against a clock.
1:25:42That's how that's how my time or that's
1:25:44how my sport was defined by a time. How
1:25:48fast can you go? And again, like I was
1:25:51saying,
1:25:54if the times that I dreamt of and I
1:25:56believe that I could go
1:25:59were faster than the world record or
1:26:01faster than what other people believed,
1:26:04if I did those times, guess what would
1:26:07happen? I'm going to win.
1:26:09>> Yeah.
1:26:09>> Right. So, for me, it became a numbers
1:26:14game.
1:26:16But it said that you knew your
1:26:17competition better than they knew
1:26:19themselves
1:26:20>> for sure.
1:26:21>> Why would you say that? You would study
1:26:22on them.
1:26:23>> I mean, I knew how they would swim their
1:26:24races. It's easy, right? Like I I feel
1:26:27like
1:26:28>> like would you study your competitors
1:26:29the way they would do style? What would
1:26:31you study about them?
1:26:32>> Well, I mean like I I always I learn
1:26:34things from them, right? Like I would go
1:26:37back and you know if you talk about Ian
1:26:39Thorp like I would learn from his
1:26:41freestyle and how he swam and his kick
1:26:44and his underwaters and you know just
1:26:46how his body moved in the water. Um you
1:26:50know I took a lot of core exercises from
1:26:53different countries that I would see on
1:26:55the pool deck. Um just because like if
1:26:59they're doing it then I can do it and I
1:27:01can beef it up like I can alter the
1:27:04exercise and change it and make a
1:27:05hybrid. Um but like Lochi like I mean I
1:27:10swam against Lochi for 15 years 10 or 15
1:27:13years, right? So um you know I felt like
1:27:16I knew him almost better than he knew
1:27:18himself just because of the history that
1:27:20we had. And of course yeah like I watch
1:27:22a lot of tapes. I I I mean I I don't
1:27:25>> you know I I don't have any connection
1:27:28to the sport anymore now. Um you know
1:27:31there are a couple international people
1:27:32that I talked to a couple international
1:27:34athletes that I talked to but I have
1:27:35zero connection with anything to do with
1:27:37the sport of swimming anymore. Um but
1:27:41yeah it was it was just I don't know
1:27:43>> just studying them.
1:27:44>> Yeah. You just thought I mean cuz it's
1:27:46like
1:27:47>> you could you yourself can only do so
1:27:49much right? So, it's like if if you
1:27:51can't learn from others or others that
1:27:53have come before you, then
1:27:56>> you're just never going to grow. And
1:27:57again, like it was always back to that
1:27:58goal of wanting to change a sport and
1:28:00take the sport to a different level. And
1:28:02>> we talking about Ian Thorp, he also said
1:28:05it's very highly unlikely that you will
1:28:08win eight gold.
1:28:10>> Yeah.
1:28:10>> You taped that quote on your locker
1:28:12room. Why would you do that?
1:28:13>> It was in the back of my locker in in
1:28:15Michigan in 2008. Um because it it's
1:28:20kind of like the same story back to my
1:28:22teacher, right? Like my teacher telling
1:28:24me I'd never amount to anything and
1:28:25proving her wrong.
1:28:27>> And if a fellow competitor and a friend
1:28:30of mine is telling
1:28:33uh excuse me, if a friend of mine and a
1:28:35competitor of mine is telling reporters
1:28:37that it's not possible to win eight gold
1:28:39medals, guess what? I'll have the last
1:28:41laugh. Um, and I it's, you know, like
1:28:44Thorp is a great friend of mine, always
1:28:46has been. Um, but even like after after
1:28:50that and then after 2016 in Rio cuz he
1:28:53said, "No one over the age of 30 will
1:28:55win an Olympic gold medal." Um, he he
1:28:59sent me a text uh right after and I was
1:29:02giving him [ __ ] for it and he was like,
1:29:04"Dude," he's like, "I know how your mind
1:29:06works. I was just giving you a little
1:29:07extra motivation." Um, but no, I I I you
1:29:12know, I I always like proving people
1:29:14wrong.
1:29:15>> Um, especially if they doubt something
1:29:17that I think is possible. Um, you know,
1:29:20I think one thing uh my coach took out
1:29:23of my vocabulary was the word can't.
1:29:27Because if you say you can't do
1:29:29something, you can't. Your mind has
1:29:32already made it up for you. Like you you
1:29:33made that choice, right? Don't do it.
1:29:35Don't think about it anymore. Don't
1:29:36think about whatever that was. move on
1:29:38from it because it's going to be
1:29:39exponentially harder since you told
1:29:42yourself you can't. Right? So, it's such
1:29:44a negative word. So, we removed it from
1:29:46my my vocabulary. And and you know, for
1:29:49me, I I I just believe that whatever I
1:29:51did,
1:29:54whatever I dreamt of, excuse me, let me
1:29:56take a step back. Whatever I dreamt of
1:29:58was possible based off of the actions
1:30:01that I did. Right? It's back to that
1:30:03quote, actions speak louder than words.
1:30:05Right? what you do every single day, how
1:30:08you show up, when you show up, it
1:30:10matters and it's gonna matter at the
1:30:12most important time, right? So, um yeah,
1:30:16that's it.
1:30:17>> Would you ever imagine yourself losing a
1:30:19race?
1:30:20>> Uh would you ever visualize?
1:30:22>> Yeah, why not?
1:30:23>> What if I lost?
1:30:24>> Um yeah, because I never want it to
1:30:25happen. So, of course.
1:30:27>> Yeah.
1:30:28>> Do you do that?
1:30:29>> Yeah.
1:30:30>> And
1:30:30>> what if I get second by 100th of a
1:30:32second instead of winning by 100th of a
1:30:34second? Yeah. I'd be [ __ ] pissed. But
1:30:38the only way I can change that is
1:30:40controlling what I do every day.
1:30:42>> So maybe I have to prepare better,
1:30:43right?
1:30:44>> And was there any
1:30:45>> Well, I think I think to I think to
1:30:48better answer that, like
1:30:51I remember my losses more than I
1:30:53remember my victories
1:30:55because the feeling of defeat
1:30:58>> I never wanted to have again,
1:31:01right? Because it feels like [ __ ] when
1:31:02you lose. It feels like [ __ ] when you
1:31:03fail. It's not It doesn't feel fun,
1:31:05right? So, for me, I looked at it as if
1:31:10I failed,
1:31:12it was my fault because I didn't
1:31:15prepare. I didn't take the time to focus
1:31:18on the small details that are going to
1:31:20help me down the road. So, those defeats
1:31:24motivate me even more to never have that
1:31:27happen again.
1:31:30What's about losing that you hate so
1:31:31much? I
1:31:32>> just don't like the feeling of somebody
1:31:34being better than me. [laughter]
1:31:36Um, no, honestly, I think that's what it
1:31:38is. Like I just I like you I I think
1:31:41it's it's like you ask the great or the
1:31:45goats of all sports or probably all
1:31:49walks of life and and I think they'll
1:31:52say
1:31:53they hate losing more than they enjoy
1:31:56winning. It's just that just the feeling
1:31:59of defeat. Like I just I don't like it.
1:32:01It's just something I I don't enjoy. And
1:32:04if there is something in my control, in
1:32:06my power to make sure that I have a
1:32:09chance at least to succeed, then that's
1:32:11what I'm going to do. And if I fail, and
1:32:13I fail because that person is more
1:32:15prepared than me, then so be it. But I'm
1:32:18not going to show up unprepared, right?
1:32:20Like it's just it's not who I am. Did
1:32:23you use any psychological
1:32:26warfare sort of tactic against your
1:32:28competitors which you secretly would
1:32:30use? No.
1:32:30>> And not share it with anyone?
1:32:32>> No. I mean,
1:32:35I would say some people probably think
1:32:37me doing my back slap and clearing my
1:32:40throat on the block was a form of trying
1:32:44to get in their head, intimidation. It
1:32:47wasn't. Um, you know, the clearing of
1:32:50the throat. I don't know when that came
1:32:53in. I feel like it was maybe post 2008.
1:32:57Um, but my arm slaps
1:33:00I I've been [clears throat] doing those
1:33:02since I was 8 years old, 7 years old.
1:33:05I've done that my whole life, you know?
1:33:07So, it's just a part of what I needed to
1:33:09do in order to get as prepared as I can
1:33:11be. And if what I'm doing is messing up
1:33:14them, it's not my problem. It's not my
1:33:16fault, right? Like, I'm taking care of
1:33:18me. I'm taking care of me and I'm
1:33:20focusing on what I need in that moment.
1:33:22I don't give a [ __ ] about my competitors
1:33:23in that moment. I could care why why
1:33:26would I care about them, right? Like I'm
1:33:28trying to beat them. I don't care what
1:33:29they're doing. I don't care anything
1:33:31about them. When I'm on the pool deck,
1:33:32it is a full-blown war. I want to
1:33:36absolutely destroy somebody.
1:33:38>> Was there anyone you secretly feared as
1:33:40a competitor?
1:33:41>> Feared. Feared?
1:33:42>> Yeah.
1:33:43>> No,
1:33:44>> I beat everybody.
1:33:47Even your head, you would not be like,
1:33:49"Maybe this new guy or somebody's better
1:33:51than me or someone's going to beat me."
1:33:53>> If I was prepared, why would it matter?
1:33:57>> You didn't care.
1:33:58>> I didn't care. I didn't care who you
1:34:00were. If I smelled blood in the water,
1:34:02I'm going to destroy you. I was like a
1:34:03shark.
1:34:04>> Yeah.
1:34:05>> Tell me the first time you won the gold
1:34:07medal at the Olympics. How did you feel?
1:34:10>> 04.
1:34:11>> First time ever in 2004.
1:34:16because that's what you ever that's what
1:34:18you wanted, right?
1:34:20>> Yeah. Uh
1:34:22yeah. I mean I mean going back to 2004
1:34:25400 IM was in the center of the pool
1:34:29went 4082
1:34:32408.26
1:34:34maybe somewhere in there. Um and I
1:34:37remember turning back around and seeing
1:34:39that I had broken the world record, won
1:34:40the gold medal, first gold medal. Um, we
1:34:43were an outdoor pool uh in Athens,
1:34:46Greece. The Olympics has started. Um,
1:34:50I remember looking up and just looking
1:34:52for my mom. My mom and my sisters. Uh, I
1:34:56caught them and then I was on the award
1:34:57st award podium hearing the national
1:34:59anthem play. We're actually the US went
1:35:03two in that race. Uh, Eric Vent got
1:35:06second from lane one or eight, I forget
1:35:09which one it was. Uh, and he came
1:35:11jumping across the lane line and we
1:35:12hugged and celebrated. It was [ __ ]
1:35:14awesome. Like that kid is one of my
1:35:16favorite humans on the plan. I love
1:35:17training with him. Um,
1:35:20and then once we got our medals, uh,
1:35:23that was day one of the meet. Um, I had
1:35:26the 200 free I think the next day or a
1:35:29relay the next day or something. And I
1:35:31remember sharing it with my mom through
1:35:33a chainl fence. I passed it through her
1:35:36um through the fence and and we just
1:35:38talked about it and we shared the moment
1:35:39for I think it was a total of like 30
1:35:42seconds. Um and I was like, "Mom, I did
1:35:45it." Um and that was it. And we from
1:35:49that point I heard my coach whistle. Bob
1:35:51whistled. He had a couple different
1:35:53whistles that meant a couple different
1:35:54things. Uh and he whistled like the one
1:35:57trying to get my attention and I turned
1:35:59around and he just pointed at the warm
1:36:00down pool and he was like, "Let's go. We
1:36:02got to warm down." cuz I I hadn't warmed
1:36:04down from the race yet. So, I needed to
1:36:05clear my lactic acid to get ready for
1:36:07the next day and my next race. Um, so I
1:36:11think that was the first time for me
1:36:12where I learned that um
1:36:16I couldn't get caught up in that one
1:36:19moment
1:36:20even though it was special, right? Like,
1:36:23yeah, I just won my first gold medal,
1:36:25but I had five or six other races that I
1:36:29had to get ready for. So that gold medal
1:36:31is like, "All right, finished. What's
1:36:33next?
1:36:36On to the next race." Um, you know, like
1:36:38it's crazy. Like I
1:36:42throughout my career, I I don't know
1:36:45like in the actual moment
1:36:49with a gold medal around my neck, like
1:36:50I, you know, I don't think I really
1:36:52enjoyed it or like lived it as much as I
1:36:56did in 2016.
1:36:59um because I knew it was my last one
1:37:01period. Like I knew I wasn't coming back
1:37:02and you know that's why I kind of like
1:37:04the tears started coming out during the
1:37:07national anthem when I was in the podium
1:37:08just because of you know going back and
1:37:11thinking through every little moment
1:37:12throughout my career. But you know in
1:37:142004 and 2008 and 2012 I couldn't
1:37:18use those emotions up in that way
1:37:22because I had so much other stuff going
1:37:25on that week. So, it really was trying
1:37:27to manage those physical and emotional
1:37:30or that physical and emotional energy
1:37:32throughout, you know, an 8 to 10 day
1:37:34program. Um, so yeah, you you really
1:37:37couldn't I couldn't, excuse me, um,
1:37:41enjoy those moments as probably as much
1:37:43as
1:37:45probably people would have thought. Um,
1:37:48but I think for me after retiring, I've
1:37:51been able to kind of go back and um, put
1:37:54myself back in those spots and um, it's
1:37:57been really cool uh, just being able to
1:37:59look at each metal and, you know, tell
1:38:01you exactly what was going on in my head
1:38:03or, you know, who I was swimming
1:38:05against, who I touched out, this, that,
1:38:07or the other. Um, just trying to break
1:38:09it all down, right? Because I think that
1:38:11at times there's there's still that like
1:38:14that thought you're like was that a
1:38:16dream or did that really happen? Right?
1:38:17So you still got to pinch yourself every
1:38:19now and then.
1:38:20>> But winning the gold medal, getting it
1:38:22in your hand, you're standing at the
1:38:24podium and you're not thinking about
1:38:26that feeling of winning. You're just
1:38:27thinking about, okay, tomorrow, next
1:38:29race.
1:38:29>> Yep. I can't I could not do it. I
1:38:34couldn't
1:38:36because I couldn't I I I had to I had to
1:38:38make sure that like in that moment I had
1:38:40to make sure that I was getting the
1:38:43right recovery, right? Like if I was
1:38:45finished for the night and I had warmed
1:38:48down already, then I'm like, "All right,
1:38:50am I getting back on the massage table
1:38:52and then right into the cold tub to then
1:38:54go back and eat? Am I eating first? What
1:38:56am I doing? Is there food here? Do I
1:38:59have to eat a power bar or something
1:39:00like that now? or carnation and some
1:39:02breakfast just to give me some energy
1:39:03before I get back to the village. Um
1:39:06yeah, it it was it was one thing in
1:39:09front of another. I mean like even in
1:39:112012, right? Like 2012 I swam the 400
1:39:15IM, which [ __ ] I still probably
1:39:16shouldn't have swam it. Um but whatever,
1:39:19it was a learning experience. I'm I did
1:39:22it. Uh where I got fourth. I got fourth
1:39:24and missed the podium. Um and that was
1:39:27the very very first day of the Olympics,
1:39:29right? So, at that point, it's like,
1:39:32"All right, well, that didn't go as
1:39:34planned." So, now, how do you redirect
1:39:37yourself and your energy to make sure
1:39:39that doesn't affect the rest of the
1:39:42meat? So, I was like, I literally I just
1:39:44threw it out, just forgot about it. Next
1:39:47day, I came back and had unbelievable
1:39:49split on the relay. Um, and then kind of
1:39:52built momentum back from there. But,
1:39:54yeah, it's it's it's, you know, really
1:39:57living in the moment. And I think it's,
1:39:58you know, I still haven't mastered it,
1:40:00but you know, I think throughout my
1:40:02career, it was something that I was
1:40:03really good at. Um, I think there's a
1:40:05book that I have probably read a dozen
1:40:07times, The Power of Now, Aaroleier.
1:40:10Like, it's just it's incredible. Like,
1:40:12there's something really to living in
1:40:13the moment. Um, and I think it's
1:40:15something we can all learn from. Like, I
1:40:17mean, you guys have heard me talk about
1:40:19having four kids, and those four kids do
1:40:22it perfectly. They live in the moment
1:40:24every single waking moment of their life
1:40:26right now. Um, and I, you know, I think
1:40:28it's there there's just a lot of power
1:40:30to that. It's something that I try to do
1:40:32at every moment of my life. It is hard.
1:40:34Um, this complicated world that we live
1:40:36in, but um, I think there's if that's
1:40:39one thing that that you can try to do,
1:40:41it's living in the now. I think it truly
1:40:43allows you to be the best version of
1:40:45you.
1:40:50>> What about the time when you won all
1:40:52eight gold medals after that? There was
1:40:55nothing to look forward to at least
1:40:56during that time. Did you not enjoy that
1:40:58as well?
1:40:58>> There wasn't. There was nothing to look
1:41:00forward to because at that point I had
1:41:03just done something that no one else had
1:41:05ever done that I had literally set my
1:41:09life to do to try to do.
1:41:11>> So, did you enjoy that feeling a lot?
1:41:14>> Yeah, it was awesome. But I was just
1:41:16like, "All right, cool." Like, I just
1:41:17need space from the sport. And that's
1:41:19when I kind of like stiff armed the
1:41:20sport a little bit and just wanted to be
1:41:22me. I wanted to be a kid. Um, and I
1:41:25learned a lot about myself that way,
1:41:27too.
1:41:29[laughter and gasps] Put myself in a
1:41:30couple different situations throughout
1:41:32my life. But um yeah, it was
1:41:38I mean but but I think like like if I
1:41:42can understand a little bit of what
1:41:43you're asking like for me like the
1:41:46sacrifices that I gave up throughout my
1:41:49career allowed me to have the
1:41:52opportunity that I had in the swimming
1:41:54pool
1:41:55>> and I don't regret giving those things
1:41:57up. You know, like for me throughout my
1:41:59career, it it Yeah. would it have been
1:42:02cool to go and like party with your
1:42:03friends or go on a road trip for the
1:42:06weekend? Yeah, sure. But isn't it really
1:42:09cool winning 23 Olympic gold medals,
1:42:10too, you know? So, like for me, like it
1:42:12was almost like I have this opportunity
1:42:14to do something really special and uh
1:42:16I'm going to have that same opportunity
1:42:18to do whatever they're doing right now
1:42:20in 15 years, right? So, it's just like
1:42:22kind of lock in and just go.
1:42:25[snorts]
1:42:26You know what's funny? Because you just
1:42:28said 23 gold medals. I was listening to
1:42:30one of the uh somebody was explaining an
1:42:33interview which you gave and the
1:42:36interviewer asked you that you've won 28
1:42:3928 Olympic medals in your life.
1:42:41>> No. Yeah. 23 the only
1:42:42>> and you said no just 23 that counts.
1:42:44>> Yeah. I don't even know how many how
1:42:46many silver and and bronze I have. I
1:42:48>> Anything which is not gold doesn't count
1:42:50in your life. I mean, it's it's like I
1:42:53said, it's like, yeah, I don't I don't
1:42:55like to lose. So, um,
1:42:57>> silver is losing.
1:42:59>> You're second, right? You got second
1:43:02place.
1:43:03[snorts]
1:43:04You lost. Third place, you lost. Yeah,
1:43:08it's losing. I don't talk about the
1:43:10other five.
1:43:12I went 28 for 30. Here's a better way of
1:43:16saying it. I meddled in 28 out of 30 of
1:43:19my races at the Olympic Games.
1:43:2223 are only the ones that we need to
1:43:24talk about because again like I I was
1:43:28unprepared in the other ones. Somebody
1:43:31else was more prepared than me.
1:43:33>> So in 2012 when the bad phase started
1:43:36and you won four gold medals in the
1:43:38Olympics and you were sad about it.
1:43:40>> Yeah, it sucked. I just want but at but
1:43:42at that point like I think I was sad
1:43:44because I just wanted to be done with
1:43:45the sport, you know, like I I think at
1:43:49that point I was just over it. I wanted
1:43:51I wanted space. I wanted to be a kid. I
1:43:54wanted to just grow up a little bit and
1:43:56not just literally all be about
1:43:58swimming. And like I think for me I
1:44:00think that's what that's when I really
1:44:01kind of stiff armed the sport so you
1:44:04will um because all I had done was swim
1:44:09swim
1:44:11and I think at that point I was like
1:44:12what else do I need to do? There's
1:44:14nothing else that I need to accomplish.
1:44:18And I just kind of rebelled a little bit
1:44:20and did my own thing and then um you
1:44:23know realized that I still wanted it and
1:44:25came back in 16 you know. But like,
1:44:28yeah, in 2012, you know, the 200 fly, if
1:44:31I
1:44:33if I [clears throat] don't have a shitty
1:44:34first, second, third turn, or hit the
1:44:37finish with any amount of momentum, I
1:44:40win the race. If I win that race, I
1:44:42probably don't come back in 16,
1:44:44>> right? So, it's like for me, like 2012
1:44:47was
1:44:49like I I think that that Olympics was
1:44:51worse than the 2000 Olympics, and I came
1:44:53back with six medals.
1:44:56I hated swimming then. I hated it. I
1:44:59didn't want to do it. I did it because I
1:45:01had to. I was contractually obligated. I
1:45:03had to. If I didn't compete, I lost all
1:45:05my sponsors. So, I had to swim. I did
1:45:08the best I could with not doing much
1:45:11work. I mean, I literally trained
1:45:15I trained less than two years of that
1:45:17four years from 2008 to 2012.
1:45:20>> And you still ended up with four gold? I
1:45:23don't think I was 100% in Beijing.
1:45:27>> Yeah, we we [laughter] I want to talk
1:45:29about that. I want to talk about that.
1:45:31Right. It's
1:45:33>> I broke my wrist 6 months before the
1:45:35Olympic Games
1:45:37in08.
1:45:39>> Before the Beijing
1:45:42>> I spent 3 days out of the water and had
1:45:44surgery 24 to 36 hours afterwards.
1:45:48>> Right there. There's a scar still
1:45:52and there's still a pin in there. I have
1:45:53a titanium pin in there. Slipped on a
1:45:56piece of ice.
1:45:56>> You gave what you had.
1:45:58>> I slipped on a piece of ice. My wrist
1:46:00snapped back and there was a I basically
1:46:02looked like a golf ball coming out of my
1:46:04wrist and I just popped it popped it
1:46:06back in. Held it. Had surgery the next
1:46:09day. Yeah. But no, like I I truly don't
1:46:12think I
1:46:13>> before the Olympics.
1:46:14>> Six months before trials.
1:46:17Six months before Olympic trials. And
1:46:19you still ended up winning
1:46:20>> eight gold medals.
1:46:21>> Eight. All eight.
1:46:24>> But
1:46:24>> I was probably only at
1:46:27>> But here's what I don't understand.
1:46:28>> 85% 90%. [clears throat]
1:46:31>> But okay, explain me this right. 2004
1:46:35six medals. 2008 eight medals.
1:46:38>> Gold. 2012 four gold medals. And 2016
1:46:42again. But you say that only 2016 where
1:46:46you've given 100%. Yeah,
1:46:48>> before that London was not 100%.
1:46:50>> London definitely wasn't.
1:46:51>> Beijing wasn't 100%.
1:46:53>> 04 was um but like 08 like Yeah, I don't
1:46:57think I was I was fully at 100%. No,
1:47:00>> I could have That's what I'm saying.
1:47:01Like you asked earlier like the 200
1:47:03butterfly. Yeah, I was pissed even
1:47:06though I broke the world record and won
1:47:07the gold medal because I knew I could
1:47:08have gone faster. Like that's what I'm
1:47:10saying. Like I I truly coming off of
1:47:122007 that was like arguably probably
1:47:14better than 2008 even though I only won
1:47:16seven. Um cuz we we I could have I
1:47:20should have won eight but our morning
1:47:22relay got DQed. Um so disqualified. Uh
1:47:26yeah 2007 was unbelievable like that
1:47:29best year of my career. Um and then
1:47:32broke my broke my wrist 6 months before
1:47:34trials. Uh yeah, that that recovery was
1:47:39was brutal. Um but we did whatever we
1:47:43could and and yeah, it ended up working
1:47:45out. But yeah, it could have it could
1:47:47have been better. And I think being
1:47:48better, I say from a times, like a times
1:47:53perspective, a times standard, I think
1:47:55the times that I did there
1:47:58would have been faster had I not broken
1:48:01my wrist, but that was my fault. So
1:48:03whatever. What was going on in your head
1:48:05in 2016? Because I heard there was a
1:48:08competitor who said
1:48:11Michael Phelps should shut up
1:48:15and then he you were sitting in the in
1:48:18the
1:48:19>> I think he said shut up. I don't
1:48:20remember hearing that but
1:48:21>> like somewhere there was like he said he
1:48:23there was a news about it, right? And
1:48:25then he was shadow boxing shadow boxing
1:48:27in front of you and you gave him this
1:48:28felaced look which is like pretty
1:48:30iconic. I mean, like for me back then,
1:48:33it was kind of crazy like like I
1:48:36I was on a mission. I didn't care really
1:48:39what anybody said, what anybody did, if
1:48:41anybody got in my way. I was I was going
1:48:44to push you out. Like I I was just on an
1:48:46absolute tear. I was feeling the best I
1:48:48had felt in years. Um and I I remember
1:48:53seeing Chad uh Shadow Box and I was
1:48:56like, "What are you doing?" Like I I
1:48:58don't ever remember seeing him do that
1:49:00once um prior to that point. Uh and it
1:49:05almost looked like it was on purpose.
1:49:07Like it looked like it was on purpose
1:49:08right in front of me. Um and honestly
1:49:11for me it just pissed me off. It pissed
1:49:13me off more than anything else. Uh and I
1:49:15knew there were going to be two cameras,
1:49:17one in each corner. Uh and I looked at
1:49:20both of them and I was like, "Oh shit."
1:49:22Cuz [clears throat] I saw the red
1:49:23lights. So, if you see the red light on
1:49:25a camera on the bottom, you know, that
1:49:26thing's rolling. So, I was like, man,
1:49:28they're going to have a field day with
1:49:30the reaction and the facial expressions
1:49:31that I had because, [snorts] right, I I
1:49:34don't really hide my emotions well,
1:49:36right? Like, if I'm pissed off, you're
1:49:38going to see it. If I'm happy, you're
1:49:39going to see it. Like, it's just how I
1:49:41am. and and
1:49:43um yeah, I think the the the best photo
1:49:46for me coming from those games or one of
1:49:49the best photos was him looking like
1:49:51this during the race as I'm a half a
1:49:54body length ahead of him
1:49:56>> and I end up winning the gold medal,
1:49:58right? So, I think that's a lesson
1:50:00within itself, right? Focus on you and
1:50:03what you're trying to do, not what
1:50:05others are doing. And don't try to
1:50:07intimidate other people because it's
1:50:09only going to waste your time and your
1:50:11energy.
1:50:12>> Yeah,
1:50:12>> that's it. Right. Focus on what you got
1:50:14to do. Period. Cut and dry. You
1:50:16>> I was watching that video where in the
1:50:192016 Rio you race and just like the
1:50:23moment you touch the wall, you just come
1:50:25up and you do this.
1:50:27>> You knew like
1:50:28>> I knew
1:50:28>> you knew that you won.
1:50:30>> 0.01 second which made you win. Like
1:50:33just
1:50:33>> it was it was a close one. that 200 fly
1:50:35had it been 201 mters I probably would
1:50:37have lost the race but um yeah I just
1:50:41you just know in those moments um
1:50:44>> but 0.01 01 second. How did you know
1:50:46that you won it? Like it was just 100.
1:50:50It was pure instinct to go that extra
1:50:52half a stroke.
1:50:54>> I mean, yeah. Like in in 2008 when I did
1:50:56take that half stroke. Yeah. You had to
1:50:57because it was all situational like you
1:51:00know for me in that moment like I start
1:51:02judging the wall 10 to 15 m before the
1:51:05end of the race before before I get to
1:51:07the wall. So um unfortunately I didn't
1:51:09judge it. I didn't judge it very well
1:51:11there. Um but I hit it at the right
1:51:13spot, right? So, I was always taught to
1:51:15hit it with force. You got to hit it
1:51:17with force because if you kind of baby
1:51:19it, it doesn't stop until you really hit
1:51:21it. So, um the half stroke that I took
1:51:27won me the race
1:51:29>> and the glide stroke that Michael Kavick
1:51:32took lost him the race.
1:51:34>> If you look at the video, he's going
1:51:35like this. He's finishing like this. His
1:51:37body, his neck, and his hands are
1:51:39completely out of body position. So, um,
1:51:44[clears throat] yeah, 100 of a second.
1:51:46>> So, you were so focused on yourself, you
1:51:47didn't care about anyone else, but what
1:51:50in your body knew that
1:51:52>> you won? Because until you look at the
1:51:54board or anything.
1:51:55>> Yeah. I mean, like, you just came out of
1:51:57the water.
1:51:59>> I mean, the very first thing that I do
1:52:01when I finish is snap, turn, and look at
1:52:03the board.
1:52:04>> Okay.
1:52:04>> I know where my lane is. I know where my
1:52:06name where my name is. And if there's a
1:52:09if I see this, yeah, that's it. Like I
1:52:12mean like most like there are some races
1:52:14where I'll win by a body length or two
1:52:16body lengths. And you don't even have to
1:52:17look at the scoreboard. But like some of
1:52:19the races like I mean I think if you add
1:52:21it's like six of my races together,
1:52:23eight of my races. No, it's probably
1:52:24six. I think it's six or seven of my
1:52:26races together. The margin of victory I
1:52:29think um six or seven of my Olympic gold
1:52:32medals the winning margin is less than
1:52:35half a second.
1:52:38So,
1:52:39yeah, it's preparation. Yeah, it's being
1:52:41in the moment at the right place at the
1:52:43right time. But, um, I mean, I I
1:52:45practiced those finishes that I did in
1:52:49every single one of my races,
1:52:52a thousand times, 2,000 times, 5,000
1:52:55times, 10,000 times.
1:52:58So, when I'm in the race, you don't
1:53:00think, you just be. That is it.
1:53:04And what goes on in your head when
1:53:06you're on the podium?
1:53:07>> Nothing. I'm singing the national
1:53:10anthem. That's it.
1:53:11>> No. Before even the races started.
1:53:13>> Oh. When I'm on the block.
1:53:14>> On the block.
1:53:15>> Nothing. Zero.
1:53:18>> So many people.
1:53:18>> I'm not thinking of my start. I'm not
1:53:20thinking of my my breakout, my kicks, my
1:53:24streamline. I do my normal stretch, my
1:53:27legs on the block, my arm slap. That's
1:53:30it. I don't think about anything.
1:53:32There's nothing I can change in that
1:53:33moment.
1:53:34>> But right before the race, you're not
1:53:35thinking about winning. You're not
1:53:36thinking about beating.
1:53:38>> No.
1:53:38>> Competing.
1:53:39>> I'm like a dog trying to get out of the
1:53:41cage. Just let me out of the cage. Like
1:53:43I'm just
1:53:45>> No. I'm like, again, I'm the shark in
1:53:48the water. If I smell the smallest ounce
1:53:50of blood, I'm going to destroy you. And
1:53:53I mean, like you can tell people who are
1:53:55nervous being in the ready room rims,
1:53:56too. It's it's obvious. Like that's why
1:53:59I always have my headset on. I don't
1:54:00want to talk to anybody.
1:54:02I just want to listen to my beats,
1:54:04listen to my my like the the lyrics or
1:54:08whoever I'm listening to at that moment
1:54:10just to put me in the m to to put me in
1:54:12the zone.
1:54:15[snorts]
1:54:15>> And you you would listen to Till I
1:54:16Collapse.
1:54:18>> Eminem. I mean, it was everybody. I
1:54:20mean, M Wayne,
1:54:22>> tell me top three songs you always
1:54:24listen to
1:54:25>> or you used to.
1:54:26>> Oh, man.
1:54:28>> Before you would get out. It's all Lil
1:54:30Wayne stuff to be honest. Uh, a lot of
1:54:33it was
1:54:36uh, let's see.
1:54:38Lil Wayne was there was Till I Collapse
1:54:41as Eminem.
1:54:42>> Lil Wayne was
1:54:47I guess like a Millie. Like those were
1:54:50big ones back in Young Jeezy was a big
1:54:53one. Uh, I mean every one of Eminem's
1:54:57albums. uh Biggie. Um there there wasn't
1:55:01really one song that stuck out. It was
1:55:03kind of like a hodgepodge of of songs
1:55:06that uh were just going through I don't
1:55:10know kind of whatever whatever put me
1:55:12put me in the mood. Uh, and honestly, I
1:55:14I think during each competition week, it
1:55:16would really get narrowed to [snorts]
1:55:18probably just a handful of songs and I
1:55:20would just repeat. Like I'd get off the
1:55:23bus, restart the song, walk out to the
1:55:27pool deck, restart the song, and I
1:55:29always try to get it in a certain spot
1:55:31of the song before I took it off
1:55:34just to give me one final little oomph,
1:55:37[snorts] little motivation before I
1:55:38dive.
1:55:40I mean, here's the last question because
1:55:42I know we're running out of time. It's
1:55:46if
1:55:49somebody listening to this and want to
1:55:51build the same kind of mindset that you
1:55:54have, the same kind of things that you
1:55:56have done in your work, they want to do
1:55:57it in their work. Okay? And they could
1:56:00just pick up three specific principles
1:56:04or habits or rituals or mindset from
1:56:07you. What would that be? Let's say we
1:56:09call it the Phelps protocol. Like what
1:56:11would that be?
1:56:12>> It's so hard to narrow it into three
1:56:14different things. I mean, I think one of
1:56:16the things that I really live by is
1:56:17dream, plan, reach, right? Like we all
1:56:19have a dream of something that we're
1:56:21trying to accomplish. And if you don't
1:56:24have a plan that goes along with that
1:56:25dream, then you're going to
1:56:26[clears throat] be lost, right? And then
1:56:29honestly, it's just reaching for it.
1:56:31Look, like, was I afraid to drop all of
1:56:34my other sports and just focus on
1:56:36swimming? Of course. But I also was able
1:56:38to learn that it was the best decision
1:56:41for me, right? Like I found something
1:56:42that I love, I enjoyed, and that I was
1:56:45pretty good at, you know? So, I think
1:56:47it's really just keeping it as simple as
1:56:49you possibly can, right? Like what is
1:56:51your goal? And figure out the smallest
1:56:53little details that you need to get to
1:56:55get there, to reach to to just have a
1:56:57chance to get there, right? I think
1:56:58that's the biggest thing is is people
1:57:00want a chance to do something, but if
1:57:02you're not doing the things that it
1:57:03takes to give yourself a chance, then
1:57:05all it is is words, right? It's back to
1:57:07that actions speak louder than words
1:57:09thing. Um, I think it's just what you
1:57:11do. Holding yourself accountable for
1:57:13things. Um, but again, it's it's it's
1:57:17what can you do right now. It's not
1:57:19yesterday. It's not tomorrow. It's right
1:57:21now. It's it's trying to simplify every
1:57:24little small detail. Like again, like I
1:57:26I say this a hundred times, like my
1:57:27career wasn't wasn't rocket science. It
1:57:30was just a lot of small things that were
1:57:32done well over time and that's it. Like
1:57:37don't have an excuse. If you didn't want
1:57:39to do it, say you didn't want to do it.
1:57:40Then if you didn't want to do it, then
1:57:41your goals didn't matter. Right? If your
1:57:44goals are something that mattered to
1:57:46you, you'll never have an excuse.
1:57:48Period. Like for me, like you asked me,
1:57:50yeah, there were days where I wanted to
1:57:51hit snooze and not get out of bed, but
1:57:53those goals were important to me. That's
1:57:56what pushed me. It's the same thing now.
1:57:58Like how can I give my kids the best
1:58:01chance to succeed in this world? What
1:58:03does that look like? I don't know. I
1:58:05don't have the answers, but I'm trying
1:58:06to figure it out, right? Like for me,
1:58:08that's all I think about. It's all my
1:58:09wife and I think about every day is how
1:58:11can we do the how can we be the best
1:58:13parents to give them the best life to
1:58:15succeed however they want. Whether
1:58:16that's in the pool, whether it's in a
1:58:18classroom, I don't care, right? I just
1:58:20want them to be the best version of
1:58:21themselves. So, it's what do you do
1:58:24every single day? What are your daily
1:58:25habits and what are your daily routines
1:58:27that
1:58:29prove that you are trying to be
1:58:31successful and you are trying to be
1:58:33great? Because if your habits aren't
1:58:35aligned with those things, then you need
1:58:37to look at yourself in the mirror and
1:58:39figure out what you're doing and who you
1:58:41are or your goals need to change.
1:58:44I don't know. I don't know if that
1:58:44answers the question, but it's just
1:58:46like, you know, I always hear people
1:58:47like whether it's a weight loss goal or
1:58:49this that or the other, like, "Oh, I
1:58:50really want to do this." And you're
1:58:52like, "Well, what have you been doing?"
1:58:55Nothing. I've been meaning to do this or
1:58:57I've been meaning to do this. No, just
1:58:59go do it. Right? Like literally just go
1:59:01out and do it. Like I didn't want to go
1:59:02into the gym today. My head just wasn't
1:59:05wasn't great this morning. Whatever. But
1:59:08I went in and I got done and I was like
1:59:11like I I feel different, right? Like you
1:59:13feel different when when you set your
1:59:15mind to something. Like I got in the gym
1:59:17this morning. I was like, "This is going
1:59:18to suck." And I was like, "I'm going to
1:59:20put my music on. I'm going to put McAfee
1:59:22on TV. I'm going to stretch." And by the
1:59:25time I stretched,
1:59:28I was excited
1:59:30and I was ready to try to get stronger.
1:59:3220 minutes, 30 minutes before that, I
1:59:35didn't even want to come into the gym.
1:59:36Right? So, it's just it it it's crazy to
1:59:39me that
1:59:41if you try to or if you force yourself
1:59:43to do something that you don't want to
1:59:46when it's uncomfortable,
1:59:48how quick your mind and body comes back
1:59:51around and you're not in that shitty
1:59:54mood or depressed mood or unhappy mood.
1:59:57Like for me, like that's that's why I
1:59:59work out still every day because if I
2:00:02don't, then I'm not giving myself the
2:00:03best chance physically and mentally.
2:00:06Because for me, for 25 years of my life,
2:00:09I swam damn near every day, right? So,
2:00:11some form of exercise. So, that's what I
2:00:14have to do now. For me to be the best
2:00:16version of me, that's there's no
2:00:18excuses. I have to get in there for an
2:00:20hour, hour and a half plus, no matter
2:00:22what. No matter how I feel, tomorrow I'm
2:00:24going to be sore as hell from the
2:00:26weights today. But, you know what? I get
2:00:28through tomorrow, the next day is going
2:00:30to be even better. And then I am going
2:00:31to build muscle. I am going to get
2:00:32stronger, right? It's that process of
2:00:34it. It's the process of things that I
2:00:36think people don't like or skip or give
2:00:40up after they're a week, two weeks,
2:00:42three weeks into it. Trust it. It takes
2:00:4630 days to create a habit. It takes 30
2:00:48days to get rid of a habit.
2:00:51For me, throughout my career, I would do
2:00:54different habits. So, when I'm in the
2:00:56pool, I would learn and create different
2:00:58habits for strokes or repetitions or
2:01:00streamline or kickouts or this, that,
2:01:01and the other. So naturally, after a
2:01:0330-day period, it becomes second nature.
2:01:05You don't have to think about it. It's a
2:01:07part of who you are, right? So it's I
2:01:10don't know. I mean, I guess the easiest
2:01:12way to say things is simplify it, right?
2:01:15Like break your goals down in the
2:01:16smallest terms, smallest things, and
2:01:19take a little bite out of each each
2:01:20part. If you try to conquer everything
2:01:23at once, you're just going to fail and
2:01:24spin, and it won't be good.
2:01:26>> But what now? Doesn't it feel empty
2:01:28because there's nothing to look forward
2:01:30to? What are you looking forward to now?
2:01:31Uh I mean for me everything I'm trying
2:01:34to do in the mental health space um you
2:01:36know suicide the second leading cause
2:01:38for people 10 to 34 like that that's
2:01:41frightening. Um you know for me as
2:01:44somebody who has thought about suicide
2:01:46multiple times um
2:01:48>> what got you out of it?
2:01:49>> What's that
2:01:50>> what got you
2:01:51>> what brought me out of it? Um, just
2:01:53being able to learn more about who I am
2:01:55and and being okay and and and
2:01:59understanding that it's okay to share
2:02:02and talk about the things and the
2:02:03feelings that I experience where in the
2:02:05past all I would do is compartmentalize
2:02:07and shove them down. Um, but you know, I
2:02:10think over the last 10 years, I've
2:02:11learned that it's okay not to be okay,
2:02:13right? Like it's okay to have a hard
2:02:15day, but what did I learn from it? How
2:02:17can I try to be better? How can I try to
2:02:19not have it affect the whole entire day?
2:02:21Who can I talk to? Who can I go see?
2:02:23What can I learn more? Right? Like for
2:02:25me, like I just want to ask questions.
2:02:27Um, and I know there are so many people
2:02:29in the world that are probably suffering
2:02:31from similar things that I do, whether
2:02:32it's depression or anxiety. Um, and for
2:02:35me, I I I want them to get the the the
2:02:38help and care that they need and
2:02:39deserve. Uh, you know, for me, being
2:02:41able to see a therapist or having the
2:02:43chance to see my first therapist, it
2:02:45saved my life. And who knew that just
2:02:47talking about things would make you
2:02:49happy and make you freer and just be
2:02:51your normal self? Um so yeah, for me
2:02:54it's, you know,
2:02:56chapter one of my swimming career, yeah,
2:02:58it was incredible and and um you know,
2:03:02was something I always dreamt of. Um but
2:03:06you know for me I think the next chapter
2:03:07of mental health and and um you know
2:03:10trying to destigmatize it still uh or
2:03:14get people the help and care they need
2:03:16and deserve or trying to learn more
2:03:19about it. Um, I just think it's so
2:03:21unknown um to so many people and and um
2:03:25you know the you know I guess for me
2:03:27it's it's trying to help people become
2:03:29vulnerable because vulnerability is a
2:03:32scary word right but if you're if you
2:03:35allow yourself to become vulnerable then
2:03:38you allow yourself to grow and you allow
2:03:40yourself to change and sometimes change
2:03:43isn't always bad right so um yeah I
2:03:46could talk for hours about it but like
2:03:48for me the mental health journey and
2:03:49what I'm trying to do on that on that
2:03:51front. Um, yeah, it's it's there's no
2:03:54timetable, right? Like it's just going
2:03:56to be a never ending thing and uh
2:03:58something I look forward to. Um, you
2:04:00know, for me again being able to save a
2:04:02life is way bigger than ever winning an
2:04:05Olympic gold medal.
2:04:06>> You know, I heard the president of this
2:04:08country say something like depression
2:04:12isn't a thing. Get busy working so hard
2:04:15that depression doesn't even affect you.
2:04:17And in your case, you were working so
2:04:19hard and still it hit you. Do you do you
2:04:21buy what he was saying?
2:04:22>> Um, you know, I I depression is
2:04:25something. It is a thing. Cuz I
2:04:27>> Do you think it won't affect people if
2:04:28they're like just busy working day in
2:04:30and day out?
2:04:31>> Um, I I think you you know, for me, I
2:04:35can speak from my personal experience.
2:04:37Um, you know, when I did that, I just
2:04:40ended up stacking a bunch of stuff on
2:04:41top of each other and compartmentalized
2:04:44it inside of me and then I just erupt
2:04:45like I'm a volcan uh like a volcano. So,
2:04:48um, for me, like when I go through
2:04:50depression, it feels like the room is
2:04:54shrinking on top of me. Uh, and I do
2:04:56feel all alone. Um, so I, you know, and
2:04:59it doesn't matter if I go work out or if
2:05:02I go and do my everyday errands, I still
2:05:05feel like [ __ ] and I still feel really
2:05:08dark and the thoughts that I have aren't
2:05:10good. But I think for me, it's when I do
2:05:12have those moments, I'm lucky that I
2:05:14have the tools that I have to help me
2:05:16get out of them. that is whether it's
2:05:18going to talk to my therapist, whether
2:05:20it's calling my therapist, whether it's
2:05:22calling my men's group that I'm a part
2:05:24of, whether it's calling a friend,
2:05:25whether it's talking to my wife, whether
2:05:27it's journaling, whatever it is, there
2:05:29are things that I have, whether it's
2:05:31getting in a cold tub, whether it's
2:05:33sitting in an infrared sauna, there are
2:05:34so many different things for me as a
2:05:37self-care checklist that if I'm not
2:05:39doing those every day, that I'm not
2:05:41being the best me. I I guess I agree to
2:05:43disagree with this comment then because
2:05:45I think if you have your routines and
2:05:46you stick with your routines, then yeah,
2:05:49you're going to be the best version of
2:05:50you and you'll learn more about
2:05:51yourself. But if you do compartmentalize
2:05:53and shove the things down, they're only
2:05:56going to come back stronger and harder.
2:05:58Um so yeah, I mean I I I wouldn't ignore
2:06:01depression spells. I wouldn't ignore
2:06:03anxiety. Um you know, I those two are
2:06:06things that I can talk about because I
2:06:08struggle with them. Um, you know, I get
2:06:11[gasps] I get anxiety when I have to go
2:06:12and speak in front of 2,000 people,
2:06:15right? Like, but it's it's a part of me
2:06:17like that's so you'll see me like I'll
2:06:18spin my ring or I have like I have uh
2:06:21like crystals that I'll take and I'll
2:06:23just kind of ground myself. They're just
2:06:25things that I've learned that that work
2:06:27for me. Um,
2:06:30yeah. And I I mean, my depression and
2:06:32anxiety are never just going to leave
2:06:34me. I can't snap my fingers and have
2:06:36them disappear at will. I can't. It's
2:06:39not possible, right? They're a part of
2:06:41who I am. Um I I don't want to say I'm
2:06:44thankful for it, but um they challenge
2:06:48me. They challenge me to learn more
2:06:50about me and how I work. And I guess I'm
2:06:53thankful for it. It sucks sometimes, and
2:06:55it's really hard going through uh the
2:06:58roller coasters of emotions that I go
2:06:59through. Um but again, that's what makes
2:07:03me who I am. And you know, I I I enjoy
2:07:06looking at myself in the mirror, this
2:07:08white beard and this man bun. You know,
2:07:10I don't see what I used to see. And I
2:07:12used to see somebody with a pair of
2:07:15goggles and a swim cap on, not somebody
2:07:17with feelings and emotions. So, yeah,
2:07:19the journey that I'm on now is is a
2:07:21pretty cool. It's a pretty fun one. You
2:07:23get some bumps along the way, but it's
2:07:26part of life.
2:07:27>> Thank you so much. I'm thankful for this
2:07:29conversation.
2:07:30>> Thank you.
2:07:31>> Thank you for coming here. Thank you for
2:07:32spending time. Thank you for sure
2:07:34>> taking us through your mindset.
2:07:36>> For sure.
2:07:36>> It was really an honor to
2:07:40to to talk to someone like you. You
2:07:42know, in middle of the conversation, you
2:07:43said somewhere, every time you go ask
2:07:46the goat of anything, they're going to
2:07:48say this, this, this, and in my head,
2:07:50I'm like, well, I'm asking the goat.
2:07:52[laughter]
2:07:52>> But it's true. Like honestly, like I've
2:07:54gotten to know a bunch of them and like
2:07:56a bunch of the real goats and and like
2:07:58legendary athletes and you know our our
2:08:01mindset and how we go about our everyday
2:08:04routine or schedule or job is pretty
2:08:08similar. It's you know it's again that's
2:08:10why I always say it's not rocket
2:08:11science. It's really not. Um it's a
2:08:14mindset and it's
2:08:17making a choice. Right.
2:08:19>> If you had to give a name to your
2:08:20mindset, what would it be?
2:08:23>> [snorts]
2:08:25>> I don't know. I have no idea. I'm bad at
2:08:28that.
2:08:29>> Think of that.
2:08:30>> No. I mean, I don't know. It's just, you
2:08:31know, it's I I But, you know, like when
2:08:34you say something like that
2:08:37that I
2:08:39I I don't know if I can take credit for
2:08:41all of my stuff, right? because you know
2:08:44what we were talking about uh knowing
2:08:47your competitors. It it it's I I've been
2:08:50able to take borrow what I've learned,
2:08:55you know, from whether it's other
2:08:57athletes or mentors or
2:09:01um just people that I've come in contact
2:09:03with and I've been able to put it into
2:09:07my terms and my way and understand it
2:09:10that way. Right? So, I think it's, you
2:09:12know, I I I I used to hate talking to
2:09:15people. I used to hate talking in
2:09:16general. Um, but I enjoy having like
2:09:19really fun conversations with people and
2:09:21and you know, for me, I'm still looking
2:09:24for, you know, different ways that I can
2:09:27change my routine to better myself,
2:09:29right, from from any conversation that I
2:09:32have, right? Whether it's a retired
2:09:34basketball player, football player,
2:09:35baseball player, politician, it doesn't
2:09:38matter, right? like like for me I'm just
2:09:41always I'm always trying to learn and
2:09:44I'm always trying to be better right so
2:09:46you know I I and in that process yeah
2:09:49I'm going to be my authentic self but
2:09:52yeah whatever we learn I think from
2:09:53everybody and and and you know the
2:09:55people listening here like you know I
2:09:57wouldn't say do it exactly my way but
2:10:00you know the things that that we talked
2:10:02about today if there's something that
2:10:05fits in a spot in your life or fits in
2:10:07your mindset that or fits here. Like I
2:10:11do it because right like that's what
2:10:13we're all here to do. We're here to help
2:10:14each other, right? And try to help each
2:10:16other be great, right? Like I I couldn't
2:10:18have done this by myself. Yeah. Like I
2:10:21swam my ass off in the pool for 20
2:10:23years, but like it wasn't all me, right?
2:10:26So I think the more that we can work
2:10:28together, the more that we can
2:10:29accomplish.
2:10:31>> Thank you. Thank you so much.
2:10:36>> How are you? Good. I just got done a
2:10:39[clears throat]
2:10:40workout, so sorry I'm late.
2:10:42>> It's okay. It's okay.
2:10:44>> Just got out of a workout and now we're
2:10:47good to go.
2:10:48>> I'll go.
2:10:49>> Is you Oops. [laughter]
2:10:54It's all right. It's all right.
2:10:56>> I don't know. It's It's very American
2:10:57thing to get ice with water. In India,
2:11:00they they don't give you water with ice.
2:11:03Even though we are much hotter country
2:11:05than you are.
2:11:07>> [snorts]
2:11:08>> Thank you so much for watching this
2:11:10podcast till the end. Please let us know
2:11:13in the comments what all did we do right
2:11:16so that we can improve and keep doing
2:11:18that better and what all did we do wrong
2:11:20so that we never repeat it. And at the
2:11:22same time, please give us suggestions of
2:11:24who's the next guest that you want to
2:11:25see on the podcast. [snorts] And don't
2:11:27forget to share this episode with at
2:11:29least one person who will get some
2:11:31insights because one conversation is
2:11:34enough to give people enough ideas to
2:11:36change their lives. I'll see you next
2:11:38time. Until then, keep figuring out and
2:11:41also don't forget to subscribe the
2:11:43channel. [music]
2:11:59>> [music]

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