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How Merit Built a Cult Following Before It Had a Name with Aila Morin — Transcript

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0:00So much of figuring out work as a
0:01marketer is to not associate your worth
0:03with whether or not it goes viral. The
0:05way we build product is by solving a
0:06problem. For us, it needed to be easy to
0:08apply. It needed to be non-acne
0:09triggering. It couldn't be drying,
0:10couldn't be cakey, needed to look like
0:12skin. We launched the product on
0:13meritbeauty.com and we did $100,000 in
0:15the first day.
0:16>> Tell me about something that has not
0:17worked.
0:18>> Oh my god, a million things. I'm very
0:19comfortable with failing. You can't
0:20think you get everything right for
0:21everybody all the time, right? Makeup is
0:23very subjective. And you have to have a
0:24sense of humor about the fact that not
0:26everybody's going to like everything.
0:27Building an authentic brand is being
0:28honest because we understand that making
0:29promises you can't keep affects the
0:31brand.
0:33>> Welcome to Process the Podcast, a
0:34meeting of creative minds. Let's dive
0:36in.
0:38So, Ayla, I am a huge Merit fan. I was
0:42actually doing my full face of Merit
0:43this morning and you know how the New
0:45York Knicks won and they and that thing
0:47came out and the guy was like, "My mayor
0:49is Muslim, my bagels are Jewish, and my
0:51Christian Dior." This morning I was
0:53like, "My hair is blow-waved, my makeup
0:56is Merit. Like, what is my
0:58>> [laughter]
1:00>> I am such a true fan. So, thank you so
1:03much for joining me on Process. I'm
1:05really excited to jump into it.
1:07>> happy to be here.
1:08>> of chatting with the girls and I got put
1:10on the webinar as well about the new
1:12mascara launch and we'll talk about that
1:13formulation and everything as well. But
1:15when you did that, so many ideas came to
1:17mind about questions that I have for you
1:19and I think you did it sitting in the
1:20exact same spot that you're in right now
1:22where there's a mood board behind you,
1:24which is like, Process the Podcast is a
1:26show about We literally talk about the
1:28actual process of how you go from what
1:30to go and like, no, no, no, wait, don't
1:31just like gloss over it. Like, what did
1:33you literally do? So, when you came on
1:35screen and I saw your mood board behind
1:37you, I was like, "Oh my god, I want to
1:39zoom in. Like, what's on there?
1:41So, let's start at the very beginning of
1:43Merit. How did Merit literally come to
1:46be?"
1:46>> It was 2019 when I first started about
1:48it. I was working at Mejuri, a
1:50direct-to-consumer fine jewelry company.
1:52I met Katherine that summer and kind of
1:54chatted with her about doing beauty and
1:56what that would potentially look like.
1:58We didn't feel that compelled at that
1:59time that there was something super
2:01interesting to do. It felt like beauty
2:02was so incredibly saturated. I wasn't
2:04really sure what would be a net new
2:06idea. And it wasn't until 6 months later
2:08that I was shopping around the holidays
2:10that I felt like for me it really
2:11crystallized. And the way my brain works
2:13is always kind of through living, so
2:16through experiencing things. And when I
2:17was shopping, I was just really taken
2:19aback by how complex makeup was. I'd
2:22worked at a beauty counter for 10 years
2:24and it was like every single product I
2:26looked at required a manual on how to
2:27use it. It was the age of excess as I
2:29like to call it. So, 50 shades in an
2:31eyeshadow palette in a suitcase was a
2:33very standard thing to buy. And it just
2:35felt like this huge disconnect to me.
2:37So, I started working, you know,
2:38pre-brand. There was a deck in 2020. And
2:41then I signed my contract and COVID
2:43happened. And everyone stopped wearing
2:44makeup. So, it was amazing timing in
2:47many ways because I think what was a
2:49consumer shift we were already seeing
2:50rapidly accelerated during that time
2:52period and behavior really changed very
2:54quickly. I was so fortunate because
2:56Merit came to be because I had a year to
2:58study. We delayed the launch. I got to
3:00see how consumer behavior was changing.
3:02In that time I just got to be a student
3:03of seeing what brands did. It was the
3:05first time in my career I'd really had
3:06that time. And we kind of rebuilt the
3:08brand completely in terms of the
3:10identity and how it would resonate. And
3:11then we launched it in January 2021. So,
3:14a year and a half years ago now.
3:15>> What did it look like? Like what were
3:16the pillars that you were so compelled
3:18in the story to tell at that point?
3:20>> It's not that there were pillars at
3:21first that were that compelling. I think
3:23what was interesting to me is um
3:25Katherine had seen this this white space
3:26essentially that had come out of Who
3:28What Wear surveys on a consumer
3:30demographic that was millennial and Gen
3:31X. I think for me it was much more lived
3:34experience in that when I worked at the
3:35beauty counter, I mean I did it starting
3:37at age 15. So, you're talking about like
3:39almost 10 years. There was just this
3:41huge disconnect between what people
3:43asked me versus what I was seeing brands
3:45sell. People would come in and be like,
3:46"Oh, I'm looking for a mascara that
3:47doesn't clump." Or, "Can someone shade
3:49match me for a concealer?" Or, "You
3:50know, what's a good SPF for my skin
3:52type? Like they were very
3:53straightforward questions. It wasn't how
3:55do I do a cut crease and how do I do an
3:57eyeshadow look with four different
3:58shades? Like that was never something
4:00anybody asked me. So, what I was very
4:01clear on is that the product market fit
4:03wasn't there in a lot of what was being
4:05done and as someone that had worked in
4:06makeup for 10 years, it was kind of
4:08crazy that I felt I didn't have the
4:09skill set when that was quite literally
4:11my job. So, I think we spent a lot of
4:13time developing the brand over that time
4:15period, working with our our VP of
4:17creative who I still work with to create
4:19a new brand book and to figure out
4:20understanding this problem, right? This
4:22this white space consumer and the
4:23problem is that we're not actually
4:25creating products that she uses every
4:26day.
4:27How do we solve for that? And how do we
4:28build for that? And a lot of that became
4:30both a brand philosophy and a business
4:32philosophy because as you watch the
4:34mistakes that people made during COVID,
4:36the primary one being at that time all
4:38beauty brands had a hero that was 60 to
4:4080% of their business and during COVID
4:42if people stopped wearing it, like a
4:43matte liquid lipstick or a foundation,
4:45your whole business was at risk. So,
4:47developing routine, developing
4:49diversified channel strategy, those
4:51things were business reactions. But
4:52also, there were brand reactions to can
4:54you look at a beauty brand and identify
4:56it outside of a product? If you took the
4:57products out of the image, would you
4:59know what brand it is? We did a lot of
5:00that exercise because at that point that
5:02didn't really exist and we were always
5:03interested in building Merit as a a
5:05lifestyle brand that was a little bit
5:06more holistic as opposed to a beauty
5:08brand with a hero and a certain
5:09aesthetic.
5:10>> So, when you say you were really
5:11interested in trying to build a brand
5:13that if you literally remove the
5:14product, the brand would still exist,
5:16how did you literally do that? Were you
5:18in the trenches of mood boarding being
5:20like, I see it. This is the vision. Like
5:22this is what it is.
5:23>> So, I always say the hardest thing in
5:25brand creation is it's very hard to know
5:27what you like and what a brand likes,
5:28especially in the early days, right? So,
5:30so many of the references that Lola
5:32who's really my creative partner and I
5:33would would sit and pull would be what
5:35are images that feel really resonant for
5:37us? For us, that was a lot of 90s. It
5:38was a lot of very simple. It was pulling
5:41a lot of fabric swatches, a lot of book
5:42references. I don't just pull from the
5:45internet. I find that it's super
5:46limiting if you do that because the
5:47algorithm just serves you things it's
5:49serving everybody else cuz it serves you
5:50what's trending.
5:51>> Fishing from the same pond kind of vibe.
5:53>> Totally. So, even back then it was like
5:55pulling out the vintage print like I
5:57keep huge stacks of old Vogue magazines.
5:59Just pulling from every place like I'll
6:01upload save images all of that because
6:03it's so much cleaner to organize things
6:05in a way that's less influenced by
6:06traditional social algorithm. And then
6:08things like palette like a lot of it's
6:09gut in those days, right? Like there's
6:11no big brand guide on like consumers
6:13like this color. So, it becomes like
6:14what feels like it's expressing the
6:16feeling that you wanted to have, what
6:18feels like the gap that we see, and
6:20that's how it developed and came
6:21together over time. And in terms of the
6:22ethos, I think time was always what we
6:24kind of built it on. I think that almost
6:26every beauty brand has a front-facing
6:28founder who's a makeup artist or they're
6:30a celebrity. And that's an amazing way
6:32to build a brand, but it's a very
6:33specific way to build a brand. You're
6:34building a brand around a cult of
6:36personality. And for us, we wanted to
6:37build it around a belief system. Those
6:39are two very different things. And so,
6:41for us it was how do you solve a problem
6:42in an elegant way? How do you make
6:44people feel seen? That you understand
6:46what they're going through every single
6:46day? And how do you translate that in a
6:48way that's still aspirational and
6:49comfortable, but also something you use
6:51every single day. The actual
6:52manifestation of that, yes, is mood
6:54boarding. It's a ton of writing, ton of
6:55reference pulling. I buy a ton of old
6:58products on eBay that are no longer
6:59usable cuz they're expired, but give me
7:01great ideas. Because a lot of the things
7:02that live in my head are things that I
7:04was exposed to working in store. So,
7:06you're talking about over 20 years ago
7:08or even like childhood references. Like
7:09we'll remember a certain product from
7:10like 1994 that we'll buy. Like it it's a
7:13very interesting way of like pulling.
7:15It's a little bit more nostalgic, I
7:16think.
7:17>> I had a conversation with my mom the
7:18other day. She was like, "What are those
7:20pants you're wearing?" And I was like,
7:21"Aren't they so like Donna Karan 1998?"
7:25And I was born in 1992. And she looked
7:27at me and was like, "You weren't there."
7:29And I was like, "But you were there, so
7:31I was there. Like I was a sponge." And
7:33she was like looking at me like, "You're
7:35an idiot." Like it's so interesting. I
7:38was on the shop floor at a really
7:39prolific Australian brand, and that's
7:41where I sort of like learned to sell,
7:43and now I work as a video director. I
7:45can move product because of my time on
7:48the shop floor, and I understand the
7:49consumers, and like it's so important.
7:51So, whenever anybody asks me where they
7:54should start or what experience they
7:55should get, I'm like, "Get your ass on
7:56the shop floor." Like, learn what people
7:58what questions people want, like what
7:59they need. It's so interesting how as
8:00women like that's our foundation, but we
8:02don't even really realize that it's our
8:03foundation.
8:04>> Totally. I mean, and more than that, I
8:06was paid on commission. So, I had an
8:07hourly rate, but I also made a
8:09commission, which was super important
8:10for how I learned to build relationships
8:12with clients because it's not dissimilar
8:14to building LTV digitally. Because I
8:15always knew for me, first of all, I grew
8:18up in a very small town. So, where I
8:19first started working, like, very small
8:21pool of people that are buying Lancôme.
8:23There's one store with more high-end
8:24makeup. At that time, it was a town of
8:26like 10 to 15,000 people. So, you're
8:28talking about a very, very small group.
8:29And it was very clear to me from the
8:31beginning that it was about building a
8:32relationship. I was never pushy, I was
8:34never upselling, I was never like,
8:35"There's no dupe." I think it was at a
8:37Shoppers Drug Mart, and what's so
8:38different about that to what you see in
8:40the US is, you know, it was Lancôme,
8:41Smashbox, Clarins, Benefit, but across
8:43the aisle is Avène, La Roche-Posay, your
8:46French pharmacy, and then also mass
8:48makeup, like Maybelline, L'Oréal,
8:50Revlon, Almay back then. So, when I
8:52would meet someone, it was much more
8:53about building a relationship and
8:54understanding their concerns, and they
8:55would buy things from all three sectors,
8:57and I was never that upset about how
8:59much is in the first order. I was very
9:01much like, "How do I build a
9:02relationship with you? How do I make you
9:03feel like I'm going to answer the
9:04questions that maybe you don't feel like
9:05you can get the answers to?" And then
9:07eventually that would build into a
9:08long-term relationship, which would have
9:09a much longer LTV, and I'd commission
9:11over time. It's really funny because
9:13that experience for me is very front of
9:15mind. Even, you know, I learned how to
9:17do a lot of makeup techniques from Wayne
9:19Goss on YouTube because there was no
9:20formal training. Wayne Goss is now part
9:22of the panel of merit and is someone
9:24that consults on our products and our
9:25campaigns. So, it's very much almost
9:27everything I do is a reference to that
9:28time. I could never market something
9:30that I didn't love, but also I can't
9:31market something that I don't feel this
9:33deep personal adjacency to. For For it's
9:35so much a So much of marketing is
9:37listening, and I think it's the thing
9:38that most people forget. It's listening,
9:40it's pattern recognition, it's
9:41understanding concerns. It's the exact
9:43same thing as sales. It's uh To me,
9:45they're completely connected.
9:46>> Yeah, absolutely. So, take us back to
9:48the moment when you guys had to launch
9:50because also you do things a little bit
9:52slower than most from the way that you
9:55spoke to some of the formulations, the
9:57pacing, and that it doesn't seem
9:59deadline oriented. It seems like you
10:01guys are doing things when you're ready
10:03and when the market's ready and when you
10:04guys think it's right. I guess with that
10:06in mind, where did you literally start
10:09for Merit on the consumer side? Like,
10:11what was the first piece of content that
10:12you put out? Now, I know most people
10:13like wipe the decks of something is
10:15coming on their Instagram and archive
10:17everything like they figure it out. What
10:19did you guys literally do? Where did it
10:20begin?
10:21>> So, we actually had a handle that was
10:22called @mood, and it was a mood board.
10:25Um we launched it in October of 2019, so
10:283 months prior to launching the brand.
10:30We didn't say it was going to be a
10:31brand. Yeah, I used it to test content.
10:33So, we would post like repost post with
10:35writing like about sustainability or
10:37about everyday routine, and then I would
10:39look at sentiment, comments, likes, what
10:41did people repost, what did they engage
10:43with, and then slowly over time I got
10:45tighter and tighter on what the
10:46positioning was cuz I was testing it all
10:47every single post. And then in By early
10:50January prior to announcing the brand,
10:52we had 10,000 followers from the mood
10:54board. So, then we actually flipped the
10:56handle overnight before we launched it
10:58from @mood to @merit, and then announced
11:00it was going to be a brand. So, we had
11:01built this kind of community based on a
11:04way of thinking. And I think that's a
11:06very different way of building. There
11:07was no face. It it was very much like,
11:10what is the ethos that we're building
11:11towards, and what is this thing that
11:12you're feeling an emotional connection
11:14to, and then announced there was a
11:15brand. And then 2 weeks later we
11:16launched the product on meritbeauty.com,
11:18and we did $100,000 in the first day.
11:20Those 10,000 followers that it was just
11:22a mood board ended up being the initial
11:24converters who became brand fans. And
11:26again, that's the difference between
11:27building just product versus building a
11:29way of thinking or a lifestyle. Like,
11:30that's really what people came for, and
11:31that's ultimately why they converted.
11:33>> So what other pillars did you prop up in
11:34those moments? Like was it just the
11:3610,000 and it was an organic launch or
11:38was there a lot of paid spend? There was
11:40a whole lot of other gifting and seeding
11:42that went out.
11:43>> no paid spend at that time. So we did
11:45gifting, um, but I treated it much more
11:48like a focus group than I did like
11:49traditional gifting. So we actually had
11:51a Facebook page that was private that we
11:54added people to. And we did not pick
11:56influencers based on following size, we
11:57picked them based on what we thought was
11:59they'd be interested in it. So they were
12:00people who were saying like beauty was
12:02really overwhelming or having a position
12:03on that that we added and sent product.
12:05We asked them not to share it for three
12:07and a half months. That's really
12:08unusual, right? There was no like mailer
12:11and opening stories. It was just like,
12:13here's this product. Please try it for
12:14three months. If you love it, please
12:15share it when we launch. If you don't,
12:17that's totally fine. And we used it to
12:18get feedback. They would get comments
12:19even before we launched about like, oh,
12:21I wish you made this shade or I wish
12:22this existed. So we were already working
12:23on new NPD before we launched the brand
12:26because we were already having those
12:26conversations. To me that is, you know,
12:28community and influencer marketing I
12:30think can often be phrased as being
12:31unimportant. To me it is simply building
12:33relationships like you would with
12:34clients and learning from people. And in
12:36that way we had so many insights before
12:38we launched and also had such a great
12:39understanding of what was working and
12:41not working. And then that plus PR was
12:43really our initial launch. We didn't
12:45turn on paid marketing for the first
12:46four months. And then actually we
12:47launched in Sephora a month after we
12:49launched our direct to consumer and we
12:51sold out in like a month. So the first
12:53year the hardest part was we just didn't
12:55have product. We kind of came back into
12:56stock seven or eight months later. So I
12:58would love to say there was some grand
12:59plan on what we were talking about in
13:00year one, but really it was like well
13:02coordinated and then we were just
13:03talking about whatever products we
13:04actually had available. So we were a lot
13:05more limited.
13:06>> [laughter]
13:07>> It was a lot less intentional than I
13:08would like to be able to say it was
13:10because it was whatever we had
13:11available.
13:12>> Yeah, wow. So it feels like there was so
13:13much trust from the get-go for you to
13:15just not be a slave to a P&L, but really
13:18to work out what this is and how this is
13:21going to take shape.
13:22>> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think what's
13:24so special, frankly, about working with
13:27people that have built a lot of
13:28businesses before is you can see the
13:30forest for the trees, right? You know
13:32what's a big deal and what's not a big
13:33deal, and I think so much of what we did
13:35prior to launch was let's take the time
13:36to do this right, and that was
13:38definitely a gift to be able to do that,
13:41but also I think I think every investor
13:43had the understanding that launching
13:44something in 2019 and 2020 was pretty
13:46challenging. Yeah, it ended up being a
13:48great time to do things slowly, but also
13:50great brands are not built on immediate
13:52virality, right? And I think what
13:54everybody's looking for is a long-term
13:55sustainable business that grows over
13:57time.
13:57>> Was there anything that happened back
13:58then that you would do differently in
14:00the rollout?
14:01>> You know, I'm not a big hindsight's
14:0320/20 person. I try not to go back and
14:05and re-editorialized things, only
14:07because for sure through my I guess my
14:0920/26 lens I'm like, "Oh, I wish we did
14:12this a little bit different." Or this
14:13could have been a little bit better, but
14:14honestly at the time I felt such relief
14:16when I launched because we worked so
14:18long without talking to people about it.
14:20I had left this amazing job at this
14:22growing company and really been like,
14:24"Okay, I'm leaving a rocket ship." And
14:26took a big chance to do this, and then I
14:27signed my contract and COVID started. So
14:29I was kind of going into it a little bit
14:31like, "What does this mean for me and my
14:32career, and is this going to work, and
14:33are people going to connect with it?"
14:34The first day was what solidified it for
14:37me. I think the immediate response, what
14:39it told me right away is that there was
14:40product market fit and there was an
14:41emotional connection beyond everything
14:43else that I could have imagined. In that
14:44way, there was some fortuitous timing,
14:46absolutely, but I also think it just
14:48immediately struck a nerve because it
14:49was the right positioning. But I think
14:51so much of marketing is iteration and
14:53testing that it can be really weird to
14:55just launch, right? Cuz day one is like,
14:57"There's no iteration. You're just
14:58going." It is what you thought of in the
15:00background and you're getting the
15:01immediate response, but I also think
15:03back then people gave new brands a lot
15:05more grace than I see now. There was
15:06more of an understanding for that, like,
15:08you know, all our shipments were late
15:09because we did, you know, that was like
15:11half the year forecast we did in the
15:12first day under direct-to-consumer. So
15:14then I'm emailing people being like,
15:15"I'm so sorry your shipment's late.
15:17We're a brand new brand." Like there was
15:18just a high degree of kindness and
15:19trust, frankly, even from the audience
15:21that I think doesn't necessarily exist
15:23to the same extent today because we see
15:24so many brands launching all the time
15:26that we assume that they're so well
15:28capitalized and planned. And And I
15:29always joke with the team like, "We're
15:31experienced operators." I had great
15:33forecasts, but at all of it's fake math
15:35before you launch. You can be as
15:36experienced as you want and really think
15:37you know what's coming, but ultimately
15:38you got to roll with the punches. I
15:40mean, building business is full of
15:41surprises, right? Like, it's No matter
15:43how many times you do it, you get the
15:44reps in of being surprised, but the
15:45surprises never stop.
15:46>> I also think back to that time, like
15:482019, of when you would have jumped into
15:50this. Like, Reels only came to be in
15:532019. Like, the landscape was changing
15:55as we were moving as well in COVID.
15:57Like, it was a crazy time and like, even
15:59like, we were still rolling on IGTV.
16:01>> Oh, yeah. TikTok, I don't think it
16:03launched yet.
16:03>> No. Like, we were still rolling on IGTV.
16:05Like, it's crazy to think about what the
16:06>> Yeah. Like, it's crazy to think about
16:07what the literal landscape was back
16:09then. So, let's talk about entering a
16:11brand new category because you guys do
16:12that so, so well, and one of my
16:14favorites is the complexion stick, which
16:16is kind of a hybrid. It's foundation and
16:18a concealer all in one. It's literally a
16:20stick, and you just draw on your face
16:22like a crayon. Or, you can obviously use
16:24a brush and just do whatever you want.
16:25I'm obsessed with it. It is my favorite
16:27product. I have a lease in both cities
16:29at the moment, in Sydney and Melbourne,
16:31and my Merit kit in both cities is
16:35Like, and I accidentally forgot the I'm
16:37not sure what the name of it is, but
16:39it's the basically the bronzer stick,
16:40that complexion like, contour stick that
16:42you guys have. Like, and I don't have
16:44one in Sydney right now, and I the panic
16:46that I felt, the way that you guys have
16:48built that that I didn't know I needed
16:50into a routine is the most insane thing.
16:54So, talk to me about how you firstly
16:55approach a category when it's brand new.
16:57Like, "How do we tell people to draw on
16:59their faces now?"
17:00>> I mean, I think so much of the story of
17:01Merit, if you look at our heroes, is
17:03that we reinvent UX. And I think if you
17:06look at Look outside of beauty, if you
17:08look at at successful businesses,
17:09they're usually not creating something
17:11totally net new unless you're in tech.
17:13It's usually a UX change, right? It
17:14makes something easier and more
17:15intuitive. I think beauty in many ways
17:18had gotten incredibly complicated and
17:20non-intuitive. Like everything required
17:22a video. I don't know if you remember
17:23when um products had QR codes on the
17:25boxes so you could understand how to use
17:27them without watching a tutorial. So to
17:29us it's always been much more by making
17:30something domed for instance, it's very
17:32clear you apply it directly to the face.
17:34It's why bronze bomb, dayglow, flush
17:36balm, the minimalist all have curves cuz
17:38then you intuitively feel that. By
17:39making something in a stick format,
17:41first of all, it means that you can
17:42easily pick it up and use it directly on
17:43the skin. So you're not doing like a
17:45putting liquid foundation down the back
17:46of the hand using a brush. So it's
17:48really tightening up that UX. But more
17:50than that, I don't think it was ever
17:51really clear at the time, especially
17:53back then when I was working at the
17:54beauty counter what the difference
17:55between foundation and concealer was.
17:56Back then it was like, "Okay, concealer
17:58has more pigment than foundation."
18:00Right? I mean now today you see a
18:01million different formats, but there
18:02wasn't that much of a difference and we
18:04weren't doing the thing where we use a
18:05lighter concealer and then we use
18:07underpainting and put foundation over
18:09top. That didn't exist. So I think in
18:10many ways combining the two into one
18:12gesture made sense for our client,
18:13right? Like these really using one
18:15complexion product in the morning is
18:16what we're seeing most of the time. So
18:18it made sense to combine them. I think
18:20that switching UX sounds like it would
18:22be something that takes coaching. Like
18:23to your point, putting it in a stick
18:25isn't this so different? Don't you have
18:26to teach the client? But I always find
18:28the most interesting thing that I see is
18:30people tag us in stories. I always watch
18:31them. And if you watch people's kids,
18:34they'll pick up flush balm and do this.
18:35Like 2-year-olds, 3-year-olds. You can
18:37see them playing and they pick it up
18:38because they know intuitively to put it
18:40on the cheek. So there's a really
18:41interesting almost mind brain reaction
18:45to product that has the proper UX. So we
18:47didn't have to teach that that's how you
18:48use the minimalist. People just
18:49instantly understood how to use it. I
18:52think too, we formulated around
18:54concerns. So the way we build product is
18:56by solving a problem. For us it was it
18:58needed to be easy apply, easy to apply.
19:00It needed to be non-acne triggering. It
19:02couldn't be drying, couldn't be cakey,
19:04needed to look like skin. So once you
19:05solve all of those problems, it's a lot
19:07easier to market it. I think the
19:08bifurcation of product marketing is
19:09really interesting. Marketing used to
19:11own product in most organizations,
19:13right? Used to be like product creative,
19:15even you know, what store is it sold at.
19:17It used to be under marketing. That's
19:18actually quite bifurcated now. So,
19:20you'll see like a chief creative officer
19:22sitting beside a chief marketing officer
19:24sitting beside a chief product officer.
19:25What that does though is there's
19:27inconsistency in the total story. So,
19:29our marketing is very intuitive because
19:30once we solve the problem with the
19:31product, I already know what the
19:33campaign's going to be because I started
19:34with the problem. Whereas in a lot of
19:36companies you have I'm starting with the
19:38product and now come up with the
19:40campaign for why people should want it.
19:41It's a very different way of working by
19:43having it all in one cycle.
19:45>> So, when you are looking at UX like
19:47that, how involved are you personally in
19:49that process? Cuz I from what I've heard
19:51on the webinars and stuff with like you
19:53talking about it, you're incredibly
19:55entrenched in all of this.
19:56>> Totally. I So, first of all, ideas come
19:58from everywhere in our team. You know,
19:59the funniest thing about doing press on
20:01behalf of a brand is you only see me
20:02talking, but it is many, many people
20:04involved. Certain things have been my
20:05ideas, many things have come from other
20:07team members. So, it's very much how do
20:09you teach people to think of the brand
20:11so that other people also have amazing
20:13ideas and you can get inspired by them.
20:14Some of it is super intuitive. Bronzer,
20:17for instance, bronze bomb, that shape
20:19was inspired by a deodorant in my
20:20bathroom because I always had a problem
20:22with bronzer being way too big. I could
20:24never get proper contouring and then my
20:25whole face just was a darker shade
20:27instead of feeling like I got that kind
20:28of three shape around the side of my
20:30face. So, it's actually if you look at
20:31the mechanism, it looks like a Dove
20:33deodorant stick because that's what was
20:35on my bathroom counter. So, you can see
20:36a little bit of that.
20:37>> Okay.
20:38>> What's so fun, I think and different
20:40about beauty is that our team is really
20:41representative of the client, right?
20:43It's a bunch of women in their late 20s,
20:4530s, 40s, 50s, that sit together and go,
20:47"How do we solve problems that we have?"
20:49And I think what's so powerful is often
20:52the things that we are struggling with
20:53internally are the things that connect
20:54most in marketing. So, for example, when
20:56we were working on a great skin serum
20:58campaign this March, we were kind of all
20:59pulling apart our feelings on aging,
21:01which are complicated, right? We work in
21:03beauty. So, we see all all time the
21:05procedures people are getting done, the
21:07claims products make, what is and isn't
21:10possible. And I think it's you feel such
21:12a level of responsibility when you are
21:13the client to talk to yourself in also a
21:15kind way. So, one of the posts that did
21:17the best for us in Q1 was us saying like
21:19talking to editors and talking to other
21:20people involved and in the caption
21:22literally saying like aging's really
21:23complicated for us and it's complicated
21:25for everybody we know. Here's what we
21:27know skin care can actually do. It's not
21:29like a global anti-aging claim, it's
21:30like here's what it does for redness.
21:32Here's what it does for laxity. But it's
21:34specific because we understand that
21:35making promises you can't keep affects
21:37the brand. So, I think so much of
21:39building resonance is having the
21:41internal resonance, right? And like
21:43listening to each other as you're
21:44brainstorming and having the client be
21:46the creator is very important.
21:49>> Yeah, totally. So, the literal like for
21:51context of for the listener, the
21:53complexion stick is a crayon that you
21:55feel like you could just draw on your
21:57face. How does the team work to have
21:59those conversations of like you begin
22:01it, you're like, "Okay, so we have we
22:03want to do a complexion something or
22:05other. How do we do that the Merit way?
22:07Is there like months of testing and then
22:10someone's like, "Aha, a crayon." Like
22:11how does it literally work?
22:13>> Yeah, yeah. The biggest thing and like
22:14my greatest belief is I think the
22:17fundamental problem with beauty is that
22:18everybody's looking at market reports.
22:20Okay. So, if you think of how big brands
22:22are built, they have a consumer insights
22:23team. And that team looks at reports of
22:26where is the volume, what's growing,
22:27what's not growing at this retailer and
22:29uh what do I understand from the sales
22:31and what are the categories that seem
22:32like they're scaling quickly. All that
22:34tells you is what people are already
22:35doing, which is not that helpful, but
22:37it's also why you'll see brands all of a
22:39sudden all launch the same thing cuz
22:40they're all looking at the same market
22:41report. Yeah. So, for us so much of it
22:43is everybody's looking out, we're very
22:44much looking in. So, I'm always telling
22:46the team like I don't care what other
22:47brands are doing. I really don't. I
22:49don't care to serve what a market report
22:51says, I care very deeply on what the
22:53consumer says. So, we are looking down
22:55at data. So, all the time we're reading
22:56Instagram comments, we're reading DMs,
22:58we're reading emails. Every Every
23:00someone returns something, we get a
23:02reason for why and it's all logged. So,
23:04for example, like when we do shade
23:06extensions for the minimalist, we
23:08started at 20, we're now up to 30 and
23:10we're working on another extension.
23:11Every time, that's not guessing or
23:13looking at what other brands are doing,
23:14it's all the feedback that I couldn't
23:15find my shade. And then we email them
23:17back and say, "Okay, what shade are you
23:18wearing? What works for you?" And then
23:20we log it. So, we end up with massive
23:22amounts of data cuz we have a large
23:23direct-to-consumer business on where the
23:25gaps, where are people not finding what
23:26they want, what's not working, what's
23:28the main feedback or complaint. And then
23:29beyond that, we ask people what else
23:31they want to see. We're constantly
23:32running focus groups, sending emails,
23:34doing Instagram surveys, all different
23:35formats to be like, "What's the product
23:37you want to see next?" How we develop
23:38the product itself is actually much less
23:40form-based, it's problem-based. So, if I
23:43think of, let's talk about clean volume,
23:45right? So, that that one's coming out.
23:46That started from very simple premises,
23:48which were as I've been aging, this part
23:50of my lid is dropping, my upper lid. So,
23:52every time I put on mascara, it's
23:54hitting this. If it's not waterproof or
23:57tubing, it's smudging here. That didn't
23:59happen in my 20s. So, we started talking
24:01about mascara, going over like, "What
24:02are your problems with mascara? What are
24:04you running into?" And I was like,
24:04"Okay, well, I get the smudging here. I
24:07don't any volumizing mascara which is
24:08making my lashes point down straight
24:11instead of looking more open and awake.
24:13And I think especially as, you know, you
24:14hit your 30s and I'm sure into your 40s
24:15and 50s, you want to look more awake."
24:17So, we really started with a list of
24:19like, "What are all the things that
24:20mascaras are not doing for us?" And then
24:22we started talking to labs. So, having
24:24conversations like, "Why do you use a
24:26really big brush for volumizing
24:27mascara?" which was one of the funniest
24:29conversations that we were having cuz
24:30everyone's like, "Well, then people
24:31think it's volumizing." And we were
24:32like, "So?"
24:34From a technique perspective, it's not
24:35actually really not important at all.
24:37And then we start testing a million
24:38different things. So, we were very clear
24:39it needed to be tubing. Our first
24:40mascara was also tubing, which is what
24:42we knew people liked about it. And then
24:43we'll take that those sentiments and
24:45we'll put together a brief with our
24:46product development team. So, we all sit
24:48down and kind of go like, "What does it
24:49need to do? What are the problems it
24:50needs to solve? How is it different?"
24:52That gets briefed out. We get benches
24:53back. And then from there, we try a
24:55million different products until we find
24:57something that's slightly interesting.
24:58Sometimes that takes years, by the way.
25:00Like And this is also why it's
25:02non-linear. Sometimes the technology
25:04doesn't exist. Sometimes we just can't
25:05find the right vendor. I mean, in the
25:06case of Clean Volume, it's a Japanese
25:09tubing formula. The majority of mascaras
25:11are from Italy. It's very uncommon. It
25:13just took us time to find the vendor
25:15that we could work with that would make
25:16it in the way that we wanted to, that
25:18would give the look that we wanted and
25:19solve the problem. So, everything takes
25:21so much longer than you'd think. And for
25:23us, it's like I don't approve the
25:25product until we've solved the problem.
25:26That's fundamentally the gap, right? So,
25:28I it to me, you often hear about brands,
25:30you'll start a work back schedule,
25:32right? For a simple product, it's 18
25:33months. For a complex product, it can be
25:35up to 36.
25:36We have a work back, but a work back
25:38tends to restrict the number of rounds,
25:39and I just don't believe in that because
25:41I don't believe necessarily that you
25:42land the plane in three rounds. There's
25:44some products where we land it in three
25:45rounds. There's some, Clean Volume, I
25:47don't even know how many hundred. Until
25:49it is done, it's not done. Is very much
25:51my belief. And the other thing I think
25:52that people get wrong is that they
25:54launch products for a launch. We launch
25:56products for 10 years of core
25:57performance. That is what we're looking
25:58at. The products that we launched in
25:592021 are growing year over year still.
26:02That is a hugely different way of
26:03looking at building a business than what
26:05most brands are doing. I don't really
26:06care about day one. I don't even really
26:08care that much about year one. I care
26:10about can I grow this 5 years from now?
26:11>> Do you as a woman, this is not in the
26:13question, so feel free to push back on
26:15this. Do you as a woman find it hard to
26:18be like, "And we're going again."
26:20because of the values that you have
26:22there rather than people being like,
26:23"Oh, I like got it again. God, can we
26:25not just like get this approved? Cuz I
26:27know that
26:28>> Yeah.
26:28>> my own experience with product
26:30development and even friends that have
26:31had to do it, they've got other kind of
26:33project management people around them
26:35that poo-poo attitude of, "No, no.
26:39>> Yeah.
26:39>> It's [snorts] not perfect yet."
26:41>> My job is really interesting, right?
26:42Because I'm also in charge of of scaling
26:44the P&L. I am at the end of the day
26:46responsible for revenue. It's a balance
26:48because on one hand I'm in charge of
26:49delivering great product, but I'm also
26:50in charge of hitting the KPIs for the
26:52year. So, if I'm saying no to a product,
26:54it's because I'm making the revenue
26:55trade-off, and ultimately I'm going to
26:56find another way to deliver it. So, in
26:58that way there's less of that because
27:00I'm responsible on both sides. Usually
27:01you see kind of left brain or right
27:03brain. For me, I sit across both, which
27:04is different. But, also I work with a
27:06group of people that love to be
27:07excellent. I think that so much of of
27:09building a great brand is obviously your
27:10team and and who you surround yourself
27:12with, and I've been the best part of
27:13doing it, honestly. I'm so lucky to get
27:16to work with our teams. It's not usually
27:17just me saying it's not perfect yet.
27:19Right? Cuz it's also not a as much as
27:21this it's a single tea sign-off. It's
27:22not like I'm sitting in a room looking
27:24at it alone, right? I We're always panel
27:26testing. I'm asking other people's
27:27opinions. We're sending it to customers.
27:29Like, you're always getting a ton of
27:31viewpoints cuz I believe so much that
27:32the strength of a brand is not by having
27:34one lens, but by having as many lived
27:36experiences as you can. But, what's
27:38interesting is almost everybody kind of
27:39knows when it's done, when it's really
27:41good. If we don't have that, then I have
27:43no problem making a hard decision. Cuz
27:45again, yeah, revenue's my KPI, but the
27:47long-term strength and building of the
27:48brand and business is also my focus.
27:50>> Is there opportunity in Merit products
27:52to kind of go out with one thing and
27:54then be like, "Ah, we'll tweak it."
27:56Like, in the next kind of run of
27:58product?
27:59>> I try not to have that feeling right
28:01when we launch it. The problem is we
28:02usually finish products a year to 6
28:05months prior to launch, right? There
28:06will be times where we're launching
28:07something and I already have changes.
28:09>> Yeah, okay.
28:10>> For sure. And we have Kaizen.
28:11Absolutely. I mean, you look at the
28:12Minimalist we, you know, we launched it
28:14in 2021 and a year and a half later we
28:16relaunched it at twice the fill weight,
28:17and we fixed the engineering on the
28:18inside at the same price. So, we
28:21absolutely are not scared to go back and
28:22make things better, which I think is a
28:24huge part of building with the consumer.
28:26Um, we did the same thing on Brown 1980.
28:28It was really funny. We had the handle
28:30longer than the base that had the
28:31product in it so that it would be easier
28:32to leverage. But, what happened is it
28:34made people feel like they were being
28:35ripped off because the part with the
28:37formula was smaller than the handle. All
28:39we did was make it even on both sides in
28:41a new component and increase the fill
28:43weight, and sales went up more than
28:44100%. Wow. That was all we changed. So,
28:46I I do think so much of it is you try
28:48your very best to get things right. That
28:50doesn't mean it's always perfect, right?
28:52Because again, you can't have every
28:53single opinion when you first land the
28:55plane. And I believe very deeply in
28:57taking the feedback that people give and
28:59updating and redoing. So, we've done it
29:01three or four times I think down in our
29:02history. We will continue to do it.
29:04Especially with an edited collection,
29:05you have to be willing to go back and
29:07kind of adjust and redo because
29:09we're not going to launch Infinity
29:10products, which means the products need
29:11to be really good. And technology is
29:13always changing. So, sometimes new
29:15things come out so we can make a product
29:16better and then we do that. To me, it's
29:18just you put out the best product you
29:19can at the time. You take the feedback,
29:21you continue to improve. That's how you
29:22build trust, right? Is is listening.
29:24>> Yeah, absolutely. So, talk to me then
29:26about some of the decisions that you
29:28made with Clean Volume and creatively
29:31because there's both assets that are
29:34the wand of the brush and then there's
29:37assets Are there assets of it on
29:39somebody's eye?
29:41>> Yeah.
29:42>> All of that. And how do you kind of
29:43decide all of that? Is there like a
29:45merit spreadsheet that's like we need
29:48e-com, we need campaign of it in situ
29:50with like a beauty still kind of still
29:52life, we need it on a person, and then
29:54we need it obviously with shades and
29:55stuff like that. You can go how long is
29:57a piece of string, but is there kind of
29:58like an internal way that you guys think
30:01about content when you launch?
30:02>> So, we change it almost every time.
30:04There are always going to be standard
30:06things like you need an e-commerce hero
30:08shot or you need a swipe of product.
30:10Sure. The same thing doesn't work for
30:12the same products, right? Also, we don't
30:13launch newness that often like it's been
30:1510 months since we launched a net new
30:16product. That's a long time in beauty,
30:18right? The last new product we launched
30:20was cleanser, which was last August.
30:22>> Yeah.
30:23>> So, it's been a long time. And skin care
30:24is different than fragrance is different
30:26than makeup. And mascara is very
30:27different than complexion is different
30:28than lip.
30:29>> Mhm.
30:29>> Because lip is a product that is much
30:31more you want to see it on skin tones,
30:32it's emotional, you want to have it
30:34described the texture. Eye is actually
30:37very like before and after. You want to
30:39see what it looks like so you can decide
30:40if you want that effect or look if
30:41that's what you're looking for. It's
30:43much more proof point focused, so I
30:44think with this one in particular, as we
30:46talk about the medium and the message,
30:48this gets really important because what
30:50are you trying to show people on eye?
30:51For us, we're trying to show that it
30:53lengthens, it lifts, has great volume,
30:54and it works on all eye types, which
30:56most mascaras don't. So, then that means
30:58that we need to show people on all eye
31:00types that that's what happens, and then
31:01it wears all day, which means you need
31:03people to try it. So, I think as of
31:05today we've had 50,000 people sample it.
31:07You can have the nuts and bolts on like
31:08what is needed, but ultimately it's as a
31:11consumer, what do I need to know? And I
31:13think we forget so often like you get so
31:15close to things that you forget like if
31:17I'm a new person looking at this brand,
31:19what do I need to know about this
31:20product to make me feel like I will or
31:21will not like it. Mhm. Part of that by
31:23the way is honesty. Part of that is
31:24telling people what they won't like
31:26because you don't want people who aren't
31:27going to like it to buy it. Again, I I
31:29think that's where like being both the
31:30client and the creator becomes so
31:32important because you actually
31:33understand the concerns and and what you
31:35need to see to believe, too.
31:37>> How involved are you in the literal
31:39content scope of a rollout plan when you
31:42launch a product?
31:44>> Very involved.
31:44>> Like in like the social media calendar,
31:47are you like great, so we have this
31:48campaign imagery and then we follow up
31:51with proof points and then we're doing
31:53some like it's on everyone's different
31:55type of eye. Like how are you navigating
31:58that because if you think about the
31:59literal trenches of a listener's
32:02day-to-day and they for example are
32:04either at the desk having to launch a
32:05new product soon for their
32:08team or they're trying to launch a new
32:10product themselves. I think I'd love to
32:12hear how you think about that because
32:14it's something so literal as well.
32:17>> I think so much of being in an
32:19organization like this, I have a very
32:20big team now, but I am very clear on
32:22what my value is.
32:24And for me it is storytelling. It's
32:27uniting everything together. It's making
32:28it one cohesive thought. I think when
32:31you have a lot of people working on
32:31different things, it's easy for them to
32:33get disconnected. And I often have a
32:35very clear vision in my mind of both
32:37what does this look like and how does it
32:38move into market. That being said, I
32:39have a lot of team members that I've
32:40worked with for a long time. So, if we
32:41talk about social specifically,
32:43everything is led off of social. So,
32:45we're not looking at like what campaign
32:47images do we put into social before we
32:49shoot a campaign. We're talking about
32:50social and email follows social. So,
32:52everything comes from there. And
32:53actually, we don't even really start in
32:54a grid anymore. We start with what is
32:55the story we're telling and then we
32:57literally bullet point it. And I'm in
32:58those meetings of like, "Okay, we need
33:00to [snorts] explain what tubing is. We
33:01need to show how this wears in steam or
33:04in humidity. We need to show this on
33:06different eye types. We need to show
33:07video application." Like it is a long
33:09list. Then what everybody does is they
33:10go back to their corners and all pull
33:12like hundreds of references of ways of
33:14doing things. None of them are in
33:15beauty. It's always like, "Here's an
33:16IKEA commercial from 1994 that I think
33:18is such an interesting way of showing
33:20this." And then we sit down and we go
33:21through all of them and we go, "Okay,
33:22what are all the different ways we tell
33:23this story?" And we match every story
33:25point we want to make to the type of
33:26content. So, we're going to make this a
33:28text post or we're going to work with a
33:29creator on this or,
33:31you know, whatever it may be. And I'm
33:32involved in all of that. That story is
33:34then goes into go to market and the
33:35brand and creative teams present the art
33:38direction boards, the claims boards, the
33:40social and storytelling to the overall
33:43marketing team. Marketing team then
33:44comes back and pitches back channel
33:46plans. So, based on what I learned for
33:48paid marketing, we're going to focus on
33:50these assets that you're making and I'm
33:51also going to brief out these 25 things.
33:53Email's going to say we're picking up
33:55these stories, but we also need these
33:56incremental stories that you don't have.
33:58It It's very much a collaborative
33:59process and I think for me, I trust my
34:01team to be the subject matter experts,
34:03but the thing that I'm very, very deeply
34:04involved in is the exact details of the
34:06stories before they go into the
34:07channels. And then as it all starts to
34:09come together, I look at everything
34:10together on Figma. Every email, every
34:12social post, every facet of the story is
34:14looked at so that you make sure it's
34:15consistent. Cuz what you'll often see in
34:17big brands, I don't know if you notice
34:18this, is like you'll see on social
34:20something is totally different than what
34:20influencers are talking about, which is
34:22so disconnected from email, which
34:23doesn't look the same on site. To me,
34:25consistency is so much of it and
34:27especially in beauty, language is a lot.
34:29Language is everything because the way
34:31we talk is so important because we talk
34:33to our client like she is smart, because
34:35she is, but also like she doesn't have
34:36time, because she doesn't. There's no
34:38like fluffy fake language of like, you
34:40know when you read a product title and
34:41you have no idea what it is? There's
34:42none of that. That becomes really
34:43important, and then everything from
34:45shade names,
34:46the naming products, like all of that
34:48has to be in the same muscle. I'm really
34:50fortunate that I get to work with a
34:52group of people that kind of we kind of
34:54share a collective brain at this point,
34:56cuz we've been working together for so
34:58long. We're like, it's a way of working
34:59that I think we're all very used to, but
35:00is very untraditional.
35:02>> Talk to me about content, specifically
35:06the one with Whitney Leavitt on the
35:08trampoline.
35:09Let's [laughter] unpack that, because
35:12that is a feeling. A woman jumping on a
35:13trampoline is 100% feeling-led, which
35:16ties back to literally everything that
35:18you're talking about. Where do you start
35:20with that?
35:20>> Actually, that campaign was Whitney
35:22Leavitt and Karen Pittman, and those
35:24came from my TV obsession. I love
35:26reality TV.
35:27At the end of the day, like I don't want
35:29to watch a smart thriller, usually. I
35:31love Real Housewives. I loved Secret
35:34Lives of Mormon Wives. I thought it was
35:35fascinating. I had watched all the
35:37seasons prior with Whitney, and I
35:38thought it was so interesting that so
35:40much of the vilification of Whitney in
35:42the early seasons was based on her
35:44advocating for boundaries and making
35:46decisions for herself, which I thought
35:47was fascinating.
35:49>> Mhm.
35:49>> And I think so much of her story that I
35:51was watching was of someone stepping
35:53into their power in a really interesting
35:55way. I mean, today, like we made that
35:58casting call mid-year last year. So,
36:00long before the announcement of Broadway
36:02or or even the change in her story arc.
36:05But, I had the sense that she had this
36:06really compelling story and had find a
36:08way found a way to find joy in a very
36:10unapologetic way. So, on that season,
36:13she talks about, you know, her castmates
36:15accuse her of only coming back on the
36:16show to go on Dancing with the Stars,
36:17cuz she wants a career, and she goes,
36:19"Yeah, exactly. I want a career."
36:22And I just thought that was
36:24so refreshing, so powerful to see
36:26someone that was like so unapologetic
36:27with what they want and going to get it.
36:29And then Karen was more of her fictional
36:31character story arc in The Morning Show,
36:33where I thought it was so interesting
36:34that you watch Maya be passed over for
36:36promotions repeatedly. And on the day of
36:39her promotion, she doesn't have the
36:40co-workers that she's been supporting
36:41for all these years show up and advocate
36:43for her. And then you see this shift in
36:45her character as she starts asserting
36:46boundaries, but also changing her hair
36:48and makeup. And this is one of those
36:49really subtle things about hair and
36:50makeup that I think is so interesting is
36:52that it's armor, right? It's how we
36:53express ourselves. It's a choice and how
36:55we want people to perceive us. And she
36:57started changing her hair, changing her
36:59makeup, changing her wardrobe in a way
37:00that was very clear that
37:02it was no longer conforming to the
37:03expectation of what she was supposed to
37:04be because she wasn't going to win at
37:06that anyway. But again, it was a story
37:07of stepping into power. So the casting
37:09for that, and then when I read about
37:10Karen Pittman, by the way, she was like
37:11in VC and finance prior to going into
37:14acting, incredibly accomplished, just
37:17phenomenal background. That's where the
37:18casting came from. It was this idea of I
37:20mean, lip is a lip. It's not a product
37:21you need to understand a ton of context
37:23on. But to us it was lip is joy. Like I
37:25put on lip balm because I'm like I'm not
37:27like what am I fixing? I'm like, "Ooh,
37:28I'm in the mood for this color. I'm in
37:29the mood for that." Or like it's a nice
37:30little like pick me up. Something you
37:32toss in your purse, you usually have a
37:33few.
37:34It's an accessible price point. So how
37:37do you tell a story of joy? Ultimately,
37:38a lot of our casting comes from that.
37:39Who are women that are telling
37:40interesting and compelling stories and
37:42trampoline was just
37:44She was working on She was on Dancing
37:45with the Stars at the time. Again, she
37:46was phenomenal. I mean, it's
37:48talk about the fact that she was the
37:49best dancer and didn't win right at the
37:50end, which is just the same arc that she
37:52experienced.
37:53Um anyway, it was
37:55He just looks so happy in movement that
37:56one of the ideas was let's bring on a
37:58trampoline and just film her moving. And
37:59how do you capture that? And with Karen,
38:01Karen's filmed eating popcorn. And we
38:03said to her like, "What do you love to
38:04do to decompress?" And she was like,
38:05"Oh, I'm obsessed with this certain
38:06brand of popcorn." So we brought that
38:08popcorn on to set and filmed her eating
38:10the popcorn.
38:10>> Right. Okay. Do you ever put pressure on
38:12yourself like that to be like, "Oh, I
38:14hope this lands." Cuz you say it with so
38:15much confidence, but that's not
38:17necessarily how the industry does it.
38:19Obviously, like selling a lip, having
38:21somebody that's on Dancing with the
38:22Stars jumping on a trampoline. Like
38:23they're not adjacent necessarily, but
38:26they are so adjacent when you break it
38:27down. Do you ever have self-doubt in
38:29that moment around like, "Oh god, I hope
38:31this works."?
38:32>> I mean, my team will tell you I'm famous
38:33for a week before a campaign goes live
38:35being like, "Uh, I don't think anyone's
38:36going to like it."
38:37>> [laughter]
38:37>> Okay, good. We needed to hear that.
38:40At the moment, the way that you explain
38:41these things is like you're a full
38:43marketing merit superhero, and we need
38:45to hear the real like, "Oh god. Oh god."
38:49>> [laughter]
38:49>> You know, but I think so much of it like
38:52first of all, we have things that don't
38:53hit all the time, right? Like you only
38:54remember the things by brands that hit.
38:57Of 10 things you put up, probably two
38:58hit. So like that's the theory of the
39:01game, and I think so much of it is about
39:03understanding that a lot of it's out of
39:04your hands, right? Like
39:06Whitney's campaign went live the same
39:07day she started her Broadway run. Did I
39:10know that when we shot her all those
39:11months prior? No. That was luck. So,
39:13there's so much that's out of your
39:14control, especially in the cultural
39:16cycle of like who will be relevant when.
39:18I do think so as leaders, our job is to
39:20understand what our value is. And if I
39:23am always questioning and unsure and
39:25refusing to take up space, it takes away
39:28permission for everybody else to do the
39:29same. I think there's this interview
39:31with Martha Stewart I saw where someone
39:32was like, "Do you have imposter
39:33syndrome?" And she was like, "No." And
39:34it's something that for my whole career
39:35I felt like I had to say because you
39:37feel like how is it possible that I have
39:39this job or I get to do this work? Like
39:40I feel so unqualified. But I think when
39:43we as leaders don't take up space, then
39:45you make it uncomfortable for everybody
39:46else because it also means you're not
39:47taking the responsibility. So just like
39:49I said I'm confident that it might hit,
39:51I it when things don't hit, I take that
39:53in stride, too. There's no high high for
39:55me and there's no low low. It's all like
39:56this.
39:57So as much as it looks like it's a
39:59string of wins,
40:00so much of a figuring out work as a
40:03marketer is to not associate your worth
40:05with whether or not it goes viral. But
40:06beyond that, I think I'm very clear that
40:08my work is for consumption, but I as a
40:11person am not.
40:12So I also have very clear boundaries
40:14around my personal life and and what I
40:16will attribute KPIs to, because I think
40:18you have to be so careful to not allow
40:20your sense of self or your emotions to
40:22ride on whether or not something works.
40:24Cuz think of how many piece of content
40:26we create a year, right? Most of them
40:27are not going to work.
40:28>> Yeah, that's so true. I want to do a
40:31show and tell moment around the dusty
40:33pear. You guys have an Instagram post
40:36about a scent that says it's like being
40:38hit in the face with a dusty unright
40:40pear.
40:42What?
40:43>> [laughter]
40:44>> So, here's the thing about Retrospect.
40:45It's polarizing. All good fragrances are
40:47polarizing, by the way. We moved into
40:49this weird time where everything is like
40:51designed for the widest possible common
40:53denominator. So, everything's like
40:55vanilla with some kind of fruit that
40:56everybody likes.
40:57>> Yeah.
40:57>> That's not interesting. So, when we made
40:59Retrospect, we knew that people would
41:00love it or would they would hate it, and
41:02to me that's a sign of success. Because
41:03in fragrance, you don't actually wear
41:05the ones you're so-so towards. You wear
41:07the one you love. So, it has to be
41:09something that certain people are
41:10obsessed with. That being said, one of
41:11my favorite places on the entire
41:12internet is Fragrantica, which is where
41:15that quote comes from. Because
41:16Fragrantica is full of people who write
41:18reviews in the most thoughtful, graphic
41:20way, right? And some of them are so
41:22rude. Some of them are so glowing. And I
41:25think so much of brand honesty is
41:27sharing both. So, that post is sharing
41:30some of the ones that like one says it
41:31smells like their grandma's couch. One
41:32says it smells amazing. Like, that's the
41:34spectrum of perception on scents. So,
41:36why not show that? I think so much of
41:37building an authentic brand is being
41:39honest. And also having a sense of
41:40humor. Like, you can't think you get
41:41everything right for everybody all the
41:42time, right? Makeup is very subjective.
41:44We make product all the time that I have
41:45friends that are like, "It's not good."
41:47And I have other friends that are like,
41:48"Oh my god, this is my everyday
41:49essential. I have to use this." And you
41:51have to have a sense of humor about the
41:52fact that
41:53not everybody's going to like
41:54everything. I always thought one of the
41:55most powerful TV segments is mean tweets
41:59when they read them out loud. Like,
42:00there's also something so powerful about
42:03owning negative feedback
42:05>> Mhm.
42:05>> and being willing to say it out loud
42:06instead of feeling it's something you
42:07should be embarrassed of. Because to me,
42:09feedback is either we're actioning it
42:11because we need to do something about it
42:12and it's constructive
42:14or it's an opinion and not everybody's
42:16going to like everything.
42:17>> I love that. Tell me about something
42:19that has not worked.
42:20>> Oh my god, a million things.
42:21>> We have canceled products before that
42:23didn't hit our quality expectation that,
42:25you know, we tested and we were just
42:27like
42:28we're not going to feel proud of this.
42:29>> Had they already gone out in the market
42:31or not yet and you guys pulled it?
42:33>> No, we pulled it right before it went to
42:34market.
42:35>> So did the consumer know it was coming
42:36and then it just never showed up or did
42:38they not it just kind of left the
42:40company?
42:40>> Some editors knew it was coming.
42:42>> [laughter]
42:42>> So I had to explain to some people why
42:44something's not coming. Um
42:46>> So that's happened. I mean at Mejuri I
42:48built this entire functionality on
42:49same-day delivery Valentine's Day, but
42:51we realized that we never figured out
42:52how to market it. So like three people
42:54used it. It was a huge dev cost, right?
42:57Like didn't work. But I think the thing
42:59for me is I'm very comfortable with
43:01failing, but we try and fail small. So
43:02we test everything a million times. Like
43:04on an ad if we have like a concept or a
43:06tagline when we're entering a new
43:07market, we usually like split test
43:09everything on meta ads first.
43:10>> I kind of know something's going to hit
43:12at least have a sense of it.
43:14>> Or we'll test things on social media
43:15before we do an out-of-home buy.
43:16>> Yeah.
43:16>> So it's a lot of like how do I see what
43:18the sentiment is and how do I double
43:19down on that and how do I learn instead
43:20of like how do I come out with something
43:22that might be a total miss?
43:24The other really undervalued thing is
43:26really honest feedback internally. One
43:28of the things I'm the most proud of
43:29about our culture is it's very kind, but
43:31it's very direct. Like if something's
43:32not good, someone on the team goes, "No,
43:34this doesn't sound good because of XYZ
43:36or like you're missing this totally in
43:37the positioning or I don't like that the
43:39product does that." And that's what
43:40makes our products great. So I always
43:42say like if it can pass the gauntlet of
43:43everybody on our team thinking that it's
43:45great and giving feedback and weighing
43:46in then I feel pretty good about it, but
43:48it's that like if you see something you
43:49need to say something. If something's
43:50not right, if something's off, if
43:51something, you know, isn't hitting like
43:53we have those conversations and it's one
43:55of the things that I value the most in
43:56the team is those can come from
43:57anywhere.
43:58>> Yeah, true. What is your day-to-day
44:01looking like because the way that you
44:03shape your role is so
44:06entrenched in so many different areas of
44:09everything. And when I guess you've got
44:11a brand like I I know just from knowing
44:13Merit, you guys are building this as a
44:15legacy brand. And how to develop that
44:18like the world's your oyster. You could
44:20be doing so much, but I know that within
44:22that you would have to be saying no to
44:23so much. So, how do you develop your
44:26daily schedule, I guess? And how do you
44:28look at what to focus on?
44:30>> I mean, the very unglamorous reality is
44:32I'm spending usually around 9 to 10
44:34hours a day in meetings. A lot of time.
44:36So, I um spend so much time talking and
44:41connecting things. I work a lot. I think
44:43that's always something work-life
44:45balance to me is is really funny because
44:47work-life balance for me is actually
44:48much more social media related. I don't
44:50have social media on my phone. I don't
44:51look at my phone after work, but I spend
44:53a lot of time thinking. So, the joke on
44:55the team is I get up really early,
44:56usually work out, and I'm working for
44:58hours before I come to the office. I'm
44:59like processing. I'm like taking a
45:01million notes. I'm like organizing
45:03things in my brain on like what is the
45:04future? And then usually by the time of
45:05meetings, I have a pretty clear view of
45:06like where we're going. Because I
45:08oversee everything from, you know,
45:09what's our 5-year strategy to what is
45:11product to what channels is the product
45:13going into to creative to the actual
45:15marketing, there's always something I'm
45:16like more zoomed in on than something
45:18else. There'll be like a few months I'm
45:19like really in one vertical, really
45:21focused on like improving one specific
45:23thing, and then I'll kind of zoom back
45:24out once I feel like that's in the right
45:25spot, then I'll be elsewhere. I try and
45:27not think that on the day-to-day, but
45:29ground more on a more global level. So,
45:31we do strategy once a year, we look at
45:32the brand once a year, and we do kind of
45:34a brand update. We make sure everything
45:35feels really aligned. We do orderly look
45:37backs to both performance and brand, and
45:39we look at what we were proud of and
45:40what we aren't proud of, what worked and
45:41what didn't work, and we have those
45:42conversations openly. And I spend a lot
45:44of time in data. So, understanding where
45:46should we be investing more, where
45:47should we we be investing less. So, the
45:49very unglamorous thing is I'm my own
45:51assistant because I have to have control
45:53over my calendar because it shifts all
45:54the time based on the needs of the
45:55business. I spend a lot of time thinking
45:58about work outside of work. I get all my
45:59best ideas on vacation and the weekends.
46:01So, the team I'm famous for like if I
46:03take a week-long vacation, I send a
46:04massive email when I get back with like
46:0650,000 ideas. Like that's when I tend to
46:08process. But, I think there's often this
46:10idea of like there being like balance.
46:12And I think when you're building
46:13something and you're kind of obsessed
46:14with building, there's a way to manage
46:16burnout for sure. Like I'm very careful
46:18on like sleep and exercise and eating
46:19properly and all of those things, but
46:21I'm thinking about it all the time.
46:22>> What do you think is different about the
46:24way that you operate working on a brand
46:26that you've got such a big trajectory
46:27for? Even when you're making decisions
46:29around Like are you familiar with the
46:31brand Emma Lewisham, the skincare brand
46:33from New Zealand?
46:34>> Yes.
46:34>> She's so gorgeous and was like, "Emma
46:36Lewisham will be here in 100 years." She
46:38was saying that it was so freeing when
46:40she mentioned that because being able to
46:41say that just kind of every decision is
46:44like, "Well, of course." or "Absolutely
46:46not." Like it just kind of shaped it in
46:48a very different way. Is there a way
46:50that you specifically like challenge
46:53things when you have to say yes or no to
46:55I don't know everyday decisions?
46:56>> So, I try and always frame it as like,
46:59we make brand decisions first. So,
47:01there's a lot of like quick hit hit
47:02things you can do, right? You can be
47:03like, "Oh, we're going to do 50% off on
47:05TikTok shop tomorrow to hit our revenue
47:06goal."
47:07We don't really operate like that. We
47:09have very clear guidelines that kind of
47:10drive long-term brand equity. Like we
47:12don't discount for once a year. Like we
47:14have all these rules that help us to
47:16keep that in mind. I think I don't think
47:18I started with the confidence to be
47:19like, "Merit will be here in 100 years."
47:21I think I was like, "I really hope this
47:22work." I think over time, you know, we
47:24we shared the last year we did over 200
47:26million in sales. And I think over time
47:28it's shifted to a level of
47:29responsibility. And I think that's also
47:31what I'm saying about imposter syndrome.
47:33The feeling at the beginning is proving
47:35that the brand can work, right? You're
47:36like, "How do I make something of value?
47:38How do I make this work?" It's kind of
47:40shifted in the last 5 years to really
47:41being of in service, too. So, I very
47:43much feel that my role today is we've
47:46clearly established what the brand is. I
47:47have a very clear vision of where this
47:48can go. But, it has to be in service to
47:51the client that we've already got. And
47:52we have to continue to build in a way
47:53that feels aligned with the ethos that
47:55we've outlined. So, I think so much of
47:57what works about Merit is we've been
48:00deathly consistent. Which makes every
48:02marketer lose their mind, by the way,
48:03cuz everybody wants to like redo the
48:04brand once a year.
48:05>> We kept such a clear North Star in what
48:07this is and what this isn't. And that
48:08doesn't mean over time it doesn't
48:09change, but I think how do you continue
48:11to serve the needs of the client is such
48:13an active thought in my head at all
48:14times. How do we make it better? How do
48:16we
48:17improve this part of her life? You know,
48:18for us like if the mission is to
48:19simplify what it takes to get ready. So,
48:22that means that every day I'm thinking
48:23about how do we make that easier? How do
48:24you make that
48:25>> stressful? Am I improving that life?
48:27Clarity on mission, I think it's
48:29incredibly helpful so everybody can
48:30align to that, but also I think there's
48:32this thing that happens where people are
48:33always focusing on new customer
48:34acquisition or like the next frontier.
48:37And I'm also very focused on new
48:38customer acquisition, but I'm also
48:40really clear that the existing customers
48:41generally are who drive the new ones.
48:43Word of mouth and referral is still the
48:44number one way of marketing in beauty,
48:45right? A great review from friend to
48:47friend is going to do a lot more for you
48:48than an ad. Again, it comes back to that
48:50like listening function and being humble
48:51enough to know when you got it wrong and
48:53allowing the team to feel great when
48:55they got it right, but it's continual
48:56iteration.
48:58It's a very unglamorous part of it. It's
48:59work every single day.
49:00>> Yeah, what is something new that you're
49:01doing in this new mascara drop that you
49:04haven't done before?
49:05>> So, because mascara see to believe, like
49:07I said, we um
49:09yes, we sent to influencers, but also we
49:11sent tens of thousands of samples to
49:12customers. So, had people just try it so
49:15that they could see if they like it
49:16before they buy it, which is quite
49:18unconventional if you think of beauty
49:19marketing. Usually it's other than
49:21fragrance, usually it's like buy it and
49:22tell us if you like it. So, you give it
49:23to someone for free.
49:25>> Are they baby versions of it or the real
49:27deal?
49:27>> Exactly.
49:27>> The little
49:28>> The little baby ones, but they have the
49:29right brush. So, they're the exact same
49:31experience, they're just shorter. And we
49:33ship those with all orders in the month
49:35of June on our website. So, everybody
49:37got to try it and give feedback. All of
49:38the reviews on sephora.com are from
49:40customers. So, it's quite different
49:41because, you know, usually people are
49:42doing it through influencer platforms or
49:44something like that. I think for us,
49:45again, leaning into customer has been
49:47such a big part of who we are and what
49:48we continue to do. And every campaign
49:50has like a different medium. So, for
49:51example, like a billboard of eyelashes
49:53is not interesting to me because I have
49:55to see what they look like before. So
49:57video is huge for this one cuz like I
49:58want to see you apply it so I understand
50:00how it works. So we did a lot more
50:01seating for this than we would for other
50:02launches because I think so much of it
50:04is is testimony. And I think for us
50:06again like we really take our time
50:07between launches. Like 10 months might
50:09actually be the longest we've gone
50:10without newness.
50:11>> Mhm, that is a long time.
50:12>> I mean, that's a long time. It just
50:14wasn't done yet.
50:16It wasn't always the plan that it was
50:17going to be 10 months, but it wasn't
50:18done yet. I think in that way we have
50:20such a higher degree of trust when we do
50:21come with newness cuz you'll know that
50:23we put the thought in and taken the
50:24time.
50:24>> So what about the landscape at the
50:26moment with like marketing, socials,
50:28consumer, all of that? What are you
50:30really excited about for I guess the new
50:32kind of financial year that we're about
50:34to hit and just in general like what you
50:36obsessed with?
50:37>> I'm obsessed with what is the future of
50:39social and influencer for sure.
50:40>> Yeah, did you see that um Instagram is
50:42going to launch long-form to compete
50:44with Netflix?
50:44>> Mhm.
50:45>> I was like
50:47Oh.
50:48>> They launch everything to compete with
50:49everybody lest we forget. I think the
50:51changes in the algorithm have been
50:52really interesting the last few months
50:53and I think what you're essentially
50:55seeing is that the page I mean if you
50:57think about how Instagram works nobody
50:58posts in feed anymore, right? So if
51:00nobody's posting in feed then you don't
51:01have content when you go to the feed
51:01which means Instagram is now putting
51:03suggested content in your feed, but then
51:04there's also the explore page which is
51:06kind of the same thing. I think also if
51:07you look at consumption everybody's
51:08moving to reels and the only thing that
51:10gets served in the explore page is
51:12either things with music or things with
51:14reels. So it's becoming this 360 sensory
51:16experience instead of stills. I was
51:17reading Rachel Carton's newsletter which
51:19was such a reflection of what we're
51:20seeing in social which is like stills
51:22that used to drive all this engagement
51:23no longer drive any engagement cuz they
51:24don't serve in the explore page and
51:25nobody sees your content after following
51:27you cuz it's all explore page. What is
51:29so interesting is
51:30how do you continue to make content that
51:31feels high value when it's not
51:34necessarily going to serve to your
51:35followers, but it's serving to someone
51:36net new and there has to be a hook. For
51:38us
51:39do you contend with AI? I think there's
51:41so many brands that are doing a ton of
51:42AI creative. It's not something that
51:44we've really explored or open to right
51:46now. I think we've leaned much more into
51:49friendship and art and showing how
51:51things are made by hand cuz that feels
51:53really grounding today. I also think
51:55we're just seeing a movement away from
51:57how algorithms make us feel. I mean, for
51:58me, I don't have social media on my
52:00phone because it makes me anxious. And I
52:02think you're seeing a movement of
52:03consumers starting to understand like
52:05what used to be an app for connection is
52:07largely now an app to sell you things.
52:09And it sells you things by making you
52:11feel like you need them. That's a really
52:13tough place to be as a consumer,
52:14especially as women, where we're told
52:16that all the time. I feel like I I look
52:17a lot at my own life, I look a lot at my
52:19friends, and
52:20what I see more and more is people
52:21limiting their time on apps, spending
52:23more time offline, engaging more in
52:25long-form content to your point,
52:26watching more long-form things, putting
52:28the second screen down, and developing
52:30hobbies outside of their phone. There's
52:32a very rapid shift happening in
52:33marketing because of the algorithm that
52:35I think is really interesting, but it's
52:36also that I think people are taking back
52:38what it means to to enjoy their time and
52:39spend their time, and I think that's
52:40really exciting.
52:41>> A final thing that I want to let you in
52:43on, which is so irrelevant, but I think
52:46very relevant to wrap up. I was in
52:48Austin, Texas at the start of the year,
52:51and I'd spent 2 months being living out
52:54of a suitcase. I was in New York, and I
52:55was going to Austin to see a friend of
52:59mine, and it was a difficult adventure.
53:02He's one of my oldest and best friends,
53:03and I hadn't seen him properly and
53:06really spoken to him since COVID. We had
53:08like a little semi-falling
53:09out/misunderstanding,
53:11and that day of getting up was hard for
53:13me, and I was staying at her house, and
53:16I walked out onto that walkway thing
53:19that's in that random little shopping
53:20strip, and as soon as I walked out, I
53:23looked to my right, and there was an
53:25enormous two-story Marimekko Home
53:27poster, and I felt relieved because I
53:30felt like, "Oh, my people are already
53:31here. This is fine. Like, this day is
53:33going to be okay." because it was there.
53:35Like, it did something to me that I
53:38didn't really think that a brand would
53:40ever do, but because you popped up in
53:42the most unexpected place. I didn't even
53:45really think a brick wall would be out
53:46of home real estate, but it was. Like
53:48obviously they were like, "That's a
53:49great place for a billboard." But it was
53:51huge and because Merit is so powerful in
53:55the fact that you're enough in terms of
53:57layering makeup and all of that. Like
53:58you guys aren't a brand that empowers
54:00women to necessarily cover up, but I
54:02would say you're a brand that empowers
54:03us to emphasize. It was a really
54:05incredible moment for me because I was
54:07lonely as Like I was like, "Whoa.
54:11Like I'm in Texas. What am I doing
54:13here?" Like it makes me really emotional
54:14cuz I was like, "I'm trying to make up
54:16with my friend. Like what am I doing in
54:18Austin?" And just seeing it was so
54:20strange, but I just want to say thanks
54:22because
54:23I think you have I didn't I really
54:26didn't expect to get this emotional
54:27about it. I'm so sorry.
54:28>> [laughter]
54:29>> Please don't apologize.
54:30>> What you've created with the girls at
54:33Leaf as well, they're so beautiful
54:36that when I looked at it, I was like,
54:39"Oh,
54:40my friends are here."
54:42And it was so weird. So it has this like
54:45layer of what you've been able to do in
54:47Australia has so much positivity. I
54:48think obviously in data C. I know that
54:50there are so many statistics about us
54:52being
54:53one of your
54:55um like biggest sellers or whatever. I'm
54:56so embarrassed that I'm crying. How
54:57awkward. But like
54:59>> But this is like it means so much to me.
55:01Please.
55:02>> But it's like but I I really think that
55:03you've done such an extraordinary job
55:05and I just want to say thank you because
55:06it was like a little a thing that I
55:08needed. You know how there's like all
55:09those Instagram posts that are like, "If
55:11this is the sign that you needed, this
55:12is for you." on Insta and you're like
55:14all of a sudden you're like, "I needed
55:16that." You didn't need it. It
55:17was the algorithm gave that to you. But
55:19there was honestly something that Merit
55:21has this thing about it. I think it also
55:24comes on a personal level because I know
55:25the girls at Leaf the way that they've
55:27run events here. It feels so welcoming
55:29and it feels so like we support you. So
55:32maybe it was Merit/Leaf Comms doing the
55:35universal job, but it honestly changed
55:38everything just from a glimpse of a
55:40billboard. And I know that that's so
55:42weird in theory, but in the moment it
55:44was everything.
55:45>> Well, it means a ton. I think But that's
55:47why we do what we do, right? I think You
55:49know, it's really funny. I wasn't
55:50allowed to wear makeup in high school
55:52until I started working in makeup. And I
55:54remember my mom being like, "But it's
55:56all about how you have to transform
55:57yourself, right?" Cuz I was really into
55:58standing cuz it's about not being
56:00enough. One of the things that I really
56:01had to thread the needle on in my
56:03responsibility or feeling like I am
56:05doing good in the world is that we
56:08adjust the relationship of believing
56:10that beauty is something that we have to
56:11change about ourselves. It's a very fine
56:13line in marketing makeup on
56:15on that relationship. And I think one,
56:17it's how do we unpack that? And to what
56:18you said earlier, it's not about
56:19transformation, it's about enhancement.
56:21That's the first thing. But two, you
56:23know, I see in so many female-founded
56:25businesses, especially surrounding
56:26beauty, how much of it is about uh shame
56:28versus belonging.
56:30Right? Because that's that's the
56:31spectrum that beauty's on. And I think
56:33one of the things that we've always been
56:34very clear on is how we treat people.
56:36And I'm so glad to hear it extends to
56:38Leaf. And I am always so proud of our
56:40team because what I like to believe more
56:41than anything is that we prioritize a
56:43feeling, but also we prioritize an ethic
56:45code, frankly, of how we treat people.
56:47Because that's what makes a brand,
56:49right? Is like a a greater belief and a
56:51a reason for buying in. And so much of
56:52that comes down to the people that you
56:53get to interact with and work with and
56:55how you make people feel.
56:56>> Yeah, it's honestly the best. It's so
56:58nice as well to just know that it's
57:00growing and it's not going anywhere. You
57:02know, like you guys have been so
57:03consistent. And I think
57:05it's a part of that like everything in
57:07this world changes and we don't as
57:08people have much of a foundation of what
57:10is going to stay the same. But to know
57:12that our beauty bag will, thank
57:14honestly, thank god. Like uh
57:17>> [clears throat]
57:18[laughter]
57:18>> Too much going on.
57:19>> better. We're always working on getting
57:20better.
57:21>> Yeah, I mean yeah, but sure, but like
57:22you're not going to change the color
57:23palette or you know, I mean it's always
57:25I hope it'll always be blue and gold.
57:27And I hope the logo doesn't change. Like
57:28we don't need any other
57:30any other changes. Please, just leave us
57:32alone.
57:33Give us something to believe in and
57:34depend on.
57:35>> With the algorithms changing all the
57:37time, I think we're good. Um so,
57:38[clears throat] everyone can shop Merit
57:39day to day, right? In Australia.
57:41>> Yeah. Yeah, at meritbeauty.com.
57:43>> And Clean Volume is the newest launch.
57:44It's the mascara that we were talking
57:46about today. What else is coming? What
57:48else can people keep their eye out for?
57:49>> Um a million things. A million things
57:51that are also not that much because
57:52we're Merit. Um we have some really
57:54exciting We have [music] one really
57:56exciting launch in the back half.
57:57>> I don't think I'm allowed to tell any
57:58anyone what that is, right?
57:59>> Not yet, unfortunately. But, lots to
58:01share. It is a personal one, so I'm very
58:04excited about it.
58:05>> Okay, amazing. Well, thank you so much
58:06for spending the morning with me. It has
58:08been an absolute pleasure. I'm obviously
58:10obsessed with the brand. I just cried,
58:11lol.
58:12>> [laughter]
58:13>> Thank you for the time. I really
58:15appreciate it.
58:20>> This podcast is a Sham Production
58:21recorded on Aboriginal land.

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