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How Craig Mazin writes a movie | Scriptnotes Classic (Full Episode) — Transcript

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0:02Hello and welcome. My name is Craig
0:04Maisin and this is episode 403 of Script
0:07Notes, a podcast about screenwriting and
0:10things that are interesting to
0:12screenwriters. On today's show,
0:14something we have never done before.
0:16It's just me. No guest, no John. He's
0:21off visiting uh family, I believe, in
0:24Colorado. So, it's just me today. and
0:27we're going to do something that I've
0:29been looking forward to doing for a long
0:31time. I'm gonna be talking to you today
0:33about structure and character. I'm kind
0:37of giving you my whole theory on how to
0:39write a movie. I know it sounds like a
0:41lot and it it is a little bit of a lot.
0:44It's a talk that I've done at the Austin
0:46Screenwriting Film Festival a number of
0:48times. I haven't done it in a while and
0:50I feel like their exclusive right to it
0:52has ended. So now I'm giving it to you.
0:54This is sort of my how to write a movie.
0:58But before we get into that, we do have
1:00a little bit of business to go through.
1:02Uh, and it's about our live show, our
1:05next live show. We've talked about this
1:06before. It's going to be on the evening
1:09of Thursday, June 13th here in Los
1:11Angeles at the Ace Hotel, which is a
1:13beautiful venue, and it is uh benefiting
1:17Hollywood Heart. We do this every year.
1:19It's a great charity. We have probably
1:22the best guest lineup we've ever had. We
1:24have Alec Berg, the showrunner of
1:26Silicon Valley and Barry. We have Rob
1:28Molaney, showrunner of It's Always Sunny
1:30in Philadelphia. We have Courtney Kang,
1:33writer of Fresh Off the Boat. And we
1:35have Melissa McCarthy and Ben Falconee.
1:38And by the way, that's Melissa McCarthy
1:40and Ben I'm not talking about other
1:41Melissa McCarthy and Ben Falconees that
1:43you don't know. I mean the ones you know
1:45those. Uh it is a it is just about the
1:48most comedy firepower I think we can
1:50ever assemble on one stage for this
1:52show. You're not going to want to miss
1:53it. Tickets, I believe, are still
1:55available, but we're getting close to
1:57running out. So, take a look um at the
1:59link in the show notes and get your
2:01tickets. All right, let's get into it.
2:04So, when we talk about writing a script,
2:08a lot of times we're talking about
2:10structure. There are, I don't know, 4
2:13million books about structure. I went
2:15online and I looked for just images
2:19based on screenplay structure. And what
2:21I saw was kind of mind-blowing. There
2:24are these long narrow lines with little
2:27ticks on them. And then there's a pie
2:30chart. And then there's a swirly thing
2:32that kind of looks like a snail shell.
2:34There's a triangle. There's a diamond. I
2:37think there's a parallelogram. And if
2:38there's not a trapezoid, maybe one of
2:40you can get on that. All of this is
2:43designed to help you learn how to
2:44structure a screenplay. Here's the
2:47problem. All of it is done from the
2:49wrong end. All of it, it's all done from
2:53the point of view of analysis. They look
2:55at things, they take them apart, and
2:58then they say, "Look, all these pieces
3:00fit into this swirly shape or this
3:03diamond." The issue is that's not going
3:06to help you actually write anything.
3:08Because when you write, you're starting
3:10from scratch. You're not breaking
3:12something apart. You're building
3:14something out of nothing. And when
3:15you're building something out of
3:16nothing, you need a different set of
3:18instructions. I can think of a a doctor
3:21who takes bodies apart. That's a medical
3:23examiner or a coroner. That's not the
3:26doctor you want to go to to make a baby,
3:28for instance. It's just a very different
3:30thing, right? So, we're going to come at
3:32it from the point of view of making
3:33babies and your baby is your script.
3:35Don't worry, we're going to keep this
3:37safe for work. So, structure, structure,
3:40structure, structure. Screenplay is
3:42structure. You need to know how to do
3:43your structure. Structure, I'm here to
3:45tell you, is a total trap. Yes,
3:48screenplay is structure, but structure
3:49isn't what you think it is. Structure
3:51doesn't say this happens on this page,
3:53this happens on that page, here's a
3:54pinch point, here's a stretchy point,
3:56here's a midpoint. Structure doesn't
3:58tell you what to do. If you follow
4:00strict structural guidelines, in all
4:03likelihood, you will write a very
4:06wellstructured bad script. Structure
4:10isn't the dog, it's the tail. Structure
4:14is a symptom. It's a symptom of a
4:17character's relationship with a central
4:19dramatic argument. Take a moment. Think
4:22about that for a second. I'll repeat it.
4:25Structure is a symptom of a character's
4:28relationship with a central dramatic
4:29argument. Structure isn't something you
4:31write well. It's something that happens
4:33because you wrote well. Structure is not
4:35a tool. It is a symptom. When we think
4:38of rigid structural forms, I have to
4:40tell you, there's nothing honest about
4:41them. There's nothing true about them.
4:43They're synthetic. There's never been
4:45one single great writer who created one
4:48single great screenplay following a
4:50structural template. Not one. What real
4:53writers follow are their characters. And
4:55what great writers follow are their
4:57characters as they evolve around a
4:58central dramatic argument that is
5:00actually meaningful to other human
5:01beings. Let me stop for a second and
5:03tell you that we are going to get into
5:05real practicals, but for a bit now we're
5:07just going to talk a little bit of
5:09philosophy. First, let's consider what
5:12we call basic structure. There's a
5:14Sidfield point of view. You have your
5:16three acts, your inciting incident, act
5:17break, escalation, magical midpoint,
5:19character shift, third act, low point,
5:21and kickoff to climactic action. We also
5:23have the Chris Vogler hero's journey,
5:25ordinary world, call to action, refusal
5:27of call, acceptance of
5:29call. Save the cat is a lot of stuff.
5:32There's a lot of what to do, but where's
5:34the
5:35why? Who came up with this stuff in the
5:38first place? Why is it there? Why are
5:40there three acts at all? Why is there a
5:42low point? Why do we like it when
5:45there's an inciting incident? Why do we
5:47like it when there's a low point? If we
5:49don't know why those things are there,
5:52how are we supposed to know how to write
5:54them? Because we process the world
5:57through our consciousness. And our
5:59consciousness is sort of a natural
6:01storyteller. All of us are actually
6:02walking around doing this right all the
6:04time. We just don't know it. We're
6:06narrativizing our own lives better than
6:08most who try and do it on purpose on
6:10Fade In or Writer Duet or Highland 2 is
6:13the only other I don't know any other
6:15software. Right now you're sitting
6:18there, you're riding along in your car.
6:20You're being passive. You are accepting
6:22this structure talk wondering when I'm
6:25going to get to the practicals and I
6:27will. But later if someone asks you
6:29about this experience you're having, you
6:31will naturally without thinking create a
6:33story. You won't have to consult a graph
6:35or a chart or a swirly thing. You'll
6:38just tell the story. Here's a story. I
6:41listened to a podcast. It was on the
6:43following topics. Reasonable people
6:45could agree or disagree. Anyway, I'm the
6:47same. That's not a very good story, is
6:50it? Here's another story. I was
6:52listening to a podcast and it was okay.
6:54It was sort of a little boring, but then
6:56the person said this one thing and it
6:58reminded me of something else I heard
7:00once and that tied back to this moment
7:02in my life where something really
7:04interesting happened and now I'm
7:06wondering maybe if I was wrong about
7:07that thing and I should be doing it this
7:09way instead. Huh, there you go. And that
7:13story has character meaning you. That
7:16story is about you and maybe it's about
7:18me. It's about a relationship that we're
7:21having right now through this podcast
7:23for better or worse. And if you were to
7:25relay the story of this experience, you
7:27might share some parts of this that you
7:28thought were interesting or some parts
7:30that you thought were stupid, but you
7:32will naturally contextualize it as such.
7:35This moment in time did or did not help
7:38you in your desire to change. We live
7:41our lives this way, but when we sit down
7:43to write, we somehow forget. You know
7:45who never forgets? Actors. They have to
7:48get it because they're the characters
7:49and we are experiencing them as the
7:51characters. So there's that old cliche
7:53line, what's my motivation? Well, it's
7:55not a joke. Believe it or not, that is
7:57the key to structure. What is the
7:59purpose of all this storytelling that we
8:02engage in all this narration? Well,
8:04narration helps us move through a
8:06changing world. And story is about a
8:09change of state. There are three basic
8:11ways your story changes. And this
8:13applies, I think, to every possible
8:15story. The first way is internal. This
8:18is whatever is going inside the
8:19character's mind. This is the things
8:22they're thinking, they're feeling, their
8:25emotions. And this axis goes all over
8:28the place. It zigzags up and down. Then
8:32there's
8:33interpersonal. That's the main
8:35relationship of your story. It has a
8:37start, it has an end. It usually begins
8:39in a kind of neutral way. Then depending
8:41on how your story unfolds, it can dip
8:43and then rise and then plummet and then
8:45spike. And finally, you have the
8:47external axis. That's the narrative, the
8:50plot, the things that are going on
8:51around you. And that generally is just a
8:53straight line, start to end. All of this
8:57is made up of scenes. And within scenes,
9:00we're doing something that follows the
9:03Hegelian dialectic. Calm down. You don't
9:06need to look it up. I'll help you out.
9:08The Hegelian dialectic basically is a
9:10way of thinking about how we formulate
9:12ideas and thoughts and arguments. You
9:14take a thesis. That's a statement.
9:16something is true. And then you apply to
9:19that an antithesis. No, that's not true.
9:21And here's why. Those things collide.
9:23And in theory, what results from that is
9:26a new thesis called the synthesis. And
9:28that starts the whole process over
9:30again. That synthesis becomes a thesis.
9:32There's an antithesis. A new synthesis
9:34that becomes a thesis. Constant
9:36changing. Every scene begins with a
9:40truth. Something happens inside of that
9:42scene. There is a new truth at the end.
9:44And you begin. You begin. And you begin.
9:46And who is the person firing these
9:49antithesis at these
9:51thesis? You. So, as we go through this
9:54talk, never forget this one simple fact.
9:56At any given moment, as you begin a
9:59scene, you have a situation that is
10:01involving those three axes, and you are
10:03going to fire something at at least one
10:04of them to make something new. That is
10:06all story is. But what is the glue that
10:10holds all of those changes together?
10:13What's the glue that you, the creator,
10:14can use to come up with your antithesis
10:17and get your new synthesis and do it
10:20over and over again? And that brings us
10:22to
10:23theme. Theme is otherwise known as
10:25unity. Uh, unity is a term that was
10:27first used by Aristotle in poetics. And
10:29this is one you actually should read. I
10:31know you're like, Aristotle, Hegel,
10:33Hegelian dialect, calm down. It's fine.
10:37In fact, Aristotle was a really
10:40contemporary writer in his own way.
10:42Poetics is an easy read and take you
10:44about 30 minutes. It's a pretty good
10:46bathroom book and in it you'll find a
10:48lot of things that we hear today. Like
10:49for instance, the worst kind of plot is
10:51an episodic plot. That's pretty much
10:53true. What do you think of unity or
10:55theme? Well, basically theme is your
10:58central dramatic argument. Some of those
11:01arguments are interesting. Some of them
11:02are a little cliche. And the quality of
11:05the argument itself isn't necessarily
11:07related to the quality of the script.
11:09For instance, you can have a really good
11:12screenplay built around you can't judge
11:14a book by its cover. That's okay. The
11:16theme itself doesn't have to be
11:18mindaltering or I don't know,
11:21revolutionary. It's your execution
11:22around it that's going to be
11:24interesting. But the important thing is
11:26that the argument has to be an argument.
11:28I think sometimes people misunderstand
11:30the use of theme in this context and
11:32they think a theme for a screenplay
11:33could be brotherhood.
11:36Well, no, because that's nothing to
11:39argue about there. There's no way to
11:41answer that question one way or the
11:42other. It's just a vague concept. But
11:46men and women can't just be friends.
11:49Well, that's an argument. Better to be
11:52dead than a slave. Life is beautiful
11:54even in the midst of horrors. If you
11:56believe you are great, you will be
11:58great. If you love someone, set them
12:00free. Those are arguments. Screenplays
12:03without arguments feel empty and
12:05pointless. You will probably get some
12:07version of the following note. What is
12:10this about? I mean, I know what it's
12:12about, but what is it about? Why should
12:15this movie exist? What is the point of
12:18all
12:19this? Now, it's really important to note
12:21you probably don't want to start with an
12:24argument. That's a weird way to begin a
12:25script. Usually, we think of an idea,
12:28and that's fine. But when you think of
12:30the idea, the very next question you
12:32should ask is, what central dramatic
12:35argument would fit really well with
12:37this? And ideally, you're going to think
12:40ironically. For instance, let's talk
12:43about this idea. A fish has to find
12:47another fish who is somewhere in the
12:50ocean. Got it? The animators will love
12:53it. Water, fish, cool. Okay, let's think
12:57of a central dramatic argument. Um, how
13:01about if you try hard enough, you can do
13:03anything, even find a
13:05fish. That's a bit boring, isn't it? How
13:09about uh sometimes the things we're
13:12searching for are the things that we
13:14need to be free
13:15from. Well, okay, that's an interesting
13:18argument. Not sure how it necessarily is
13:21served or is being served by this idea
13:24of a fish in the ocean. How about you
13:27can't find happiness out there? You have
13:29to have find it within yourself. That
13:31could work. That's sort of Wizard of
13:33Ozish. But let's go really ironically.
13:36How about this one? No matter how much
13:39you want to hold on to the person you
13:41love, sometimes you have to set them
13:43free. Now, that is pretty cliche, but it
13:48is a great central dramatic argument to
13:50pair with a fish needs to find another
13:54fish. Because when you're looking for
13:56somebody out there in the deep, deep
13:58ocean, you, the writer, know that what
14:00you're promising is they're going to
14:02find them and then have to let them go
14:04anyway. And that is starting to get
14:08good. All right, let's get into some
14:10practicals, shall we? Because this is
14:12thematic structure. This is going to
14:14help you write your script in thematic
14:17structure. The purpose of the story and
14:20listen carefully now. The purpose of the
14:23story is to take a character from
14:25ignorance of the truth of the theme to
14:30embodiment of the theme through action.
14:32I shall repeat. The purpose of the story
14:35is to take your main character, your
14:36protagonist, from a place of ignorance
14:39of the truth or the true side of the
14:42argument you're making and take them all
14:44the way to the point where they become
14:47the very embodiment of that argument.
14:49And they do it through action. So, let's
14:52talk about how we introduce. We begin in
14:55the beginning with the introduction of a
14:57protagonist in an ordinary world. You've
14:59probably heard this a thousand times,
15:00but why?
15:02Sometimes movies don't start ordinarily.
15:04Um, you probably saw uh MadMax Fury
15:06Road. If you didn't do so, well, there's
15:10no ordinary beginning there. I mean,
15:11it's crazy from the jump. Ordinary
15:14doesn't mean mundane, although sometimes
15:17it can. What ordinary means here is that
15:20the protagonist's life essentially
15:22exemplifies their ignorance of the theme
15:25of the argument that you want them to
15:27believe eventually. In fact, they
15:29believe the opposite of that argument.
15:32That's how they begin. Typically, in the
15:36beginning of a story, your main
15:37character believes in the opposite of
15:39the theme, and they have also achieved
15:41some kind of stasis. There is a balance
15:45in their life. In fact, their ignorance
15:47of that theme has probably gotten them
15:50to this nice place of stasis and
15:52balance. It doesn't mean they're happy.
15:54What it means is that without the divine
15:56nudge of the writer God, their life
15:59could go on like this forever. It's not
16:03a perfect life. It's not the best life
16:05they could live, but it's the life
16:07they've settled for. Their stasis is
16:10acceptable imperfection. If we're going
16:13to circle back around to my favorite
16:14fish movie, Marlin can live with a
16:17resentful son as long as he knows his
16:19son is safe. That's acceptable
16:20imperfection. I get it. Nemo resents me.
16:24He's angry at me. He feels stifled by
16:26me. That's okay. He's alive. I can keep
16:29going this way. And then along comes
16:32you, the writer. Your job is to disrupt
16:35that stasis. So you invent some sort of
16:39incident. Aha. Now we know the point of
16:41the inciting incident. The point of the
16:43inciting incident is not to go, "Oh god,
16:45a meteor." The point of the inciting
16:47incident is to specifically disrupt a
16:50character's stasis. It makes the
16:51continuation of balance and stasis and
16:54acceptable imperfection impossible. It
16:57destroys it and it forces a choice on
17:00the character. Okay. But why? I'm just
17:03going to keep asking that question. But
17:04why? But why? But why? Why do you have
17:06to do this to this poor character?
17:08Because you are the parent and you have
17:10a lesson to teach this person or animal
17:12or fish. Your motivation is part of your
17:15relationship to your character. You
17:17don't write an inciting incident. You
17:20don't write push character out of safety
17:22that gives you no real guidance to let
17:23something blossom. What you write is an
17:25ironic disruption of stasis. Ironic as
17:28in a situation that includes
17:29contradictions or sharp contrasts that
17:32is, and hear me out, genetically
17:34engineered to break your character's
17:36soul. You're going to destroy them. You
17:39are God and you're designing a moment
17:42that will begin a transformation for
17:44this specific character. So, you have to
17:46make it intentional. It can be an
17:48explosion or it can be the tiniest
17:50little change, but it's not something
17:51that would disrupt everyone's life the
17:54way it's disrupting this person's life.
17:56You have tailored it perfectly and
17:59terribly for
18:01them. So, what's the first thing your
18:03character wants to do when this happens
18:05to them? Well, if they're like you or
18:08me, they're going to immediately try and
18:09just get back to what they had. They
18:13have to leave their stasis behind
18:15because you've destroyed it. But
18:17everything they're going to do following
18:19that is done in service of just trying
18:21to get it back. Shrek doesn't have his
18:25swamp. So, he has to go on a journey so
18:28he can get his swamp back. The point
18:31here is that the hero has absolutely no
18:33idea that there is a central dramatic
18:34argument. They've made up their mind
18:36about something and their mind has not
18:38changed. Your heroes should be on some
18:42level cowards. I don't mean coward like
18:44shaking in your boots. I mean cowardl
18:46like I don't want to change. I'm happy
18:48with the way things are. Please just let
18:50me be. And underlying that is fear. And
18:55fear, especially in your character, is
18:59the heart of empathy. I feel for
19:02characters when I fear with them. It is
19:05vulnerability. It's what makes me
19:07connect. Every protagonist fears
19:10something. Imagine a man who fears no
19:13other man. He doesn't fear death. He
19:16doesn't fear pain. But aha, fill in that
19:20blank. But the point is, it has to be
19:21filled in. You can feel it, right? Like,
19:22well, he's going to have to fear
19:24something because fear is our connection
19:27to a character. And a fearful hero
19:30should have lived their lives to avoid
19:32the thing they're afraid of. You are
19:35taking their safety blanket away. So, I
19:37want you to write your fearful hero
19:39honestly. What do they want? They want
19:41to return to what they had. They want to
19:43go backwards. And believe it or not,
19:45that is the gift that is going to drive
19:47you through the second act. The second
19:51act. Oh, the thing that's so scary. No.
19:56No. You should be excited about it. Let
19:58me take a break for a second and say
20:00that everything I'm talking about here
20:03is mostly to serve the writing of what I
20:06would call a traditional Hollywood
20:08movie. That doesn't mean bad. It doesn't
20:10mean cliche. It doesn't even mean
20:11formulaic. It just means it's a
20:13traditional narrative. So, I don't know
20:16if you're looking to be a little bit
20:18more Lars voner about things. Eh, I
20:20don't know how interesting or helpful
20:21this is going to be, but I'm presuming
20:23that most of you just want to write a
20:25general kind of movie that conforms to a
20:26general kind of movie shape. So, this is
20:28how we're going to help you do it. And
20:30the second act is the part that I think
20:32freaks people out the most. They get
20:34scared. But, I think you should be
20:35excited about pages 30 to 90 roughly.
20:37Please do not quote me on those numbers.
20:40But first, are you getting it? Have you
20:42stopped thinking about plot? Have you
20:45stopped thinking about plot as something
20:46to jam characters into? Because when you
20:49do that, that's why you run out of road
20:52in your second act. You ran out of plot
20:55because it wasn't being generated by
20:57anything except you. Aha. But when you
21:00start thinking of your plot as not
21:02something that happens to your
21:03characters, but what you are doing to
21:06your characters, that's when you can
21:07lead them from anti-theme to theme. How
21:10do we do it? First, we reinforce the
21:14anti-the. That might sound a little
21:16counterintuitive, but hear me out.
21:18You've knocked your hero out of their
21:20acceptable stasis. They are now on the
21:22way to do whatever they need to do to
21:24get back to it. The hero is going to
21:27experience new things. And I want you to
21:30think about making those new things
21:32reinforce her belief in an antithe
21:36because this is going to make them want
21:38to get back to the beginning even
21:40more. Oh, it's delicious. We're creating
21:43a torture chamber basically. Keep
21:46thinking that way. Imagine your hero is
21:49moving backwards against you and you
21:52push them forward and they push back.
21:55Aha. Good. Design moments to do this.
21:58You're going to keep forcing them
21:59forward, but you're also going to put
22:01things in their path that make them want
22:03to go backwards. That's tension. That's
22:05exciting. And more importantly, when
22:07they do get past those things, it will
22:09be meaningful. You want to write your
22:12world to oppose your character's
22:15desires. So, you're going to reinforce
22:18their need to get back.
22:21Uhhuh. So, let's see. Marlin wanders out
22:24into the ocean. His theory is the ocean
22:27is really, really dangerous. What should
22:29the first thing be? Maybe let's have him
22:31meet some sharks. And actually, oh, you
22:34know what? They're not scary at all. Oh
22:36god, yes, they are. The ocean is, in
22:39fact, way worse than he even imagined.
22:41That's what you need to do. He needs to
22:44get his son back really, really soon so
22:46he can return to stasis. And then when
22:50you've done that, you're going to
22:53introduce an element of
22:56doubt. Something or someone lives in a
23:00different way. Someone or something in
23:02your story is an example of the life of
23:05theme rather than the life of anti-the.
23:08So remember, your hero believes in one
23:11side of the central dramatic argument.
23:14It's the wrong side. You want them to
23:16believe the other one. Okay, but they
23:18believe the wrong one. They need to run
23:20into someone or something that believes
23:23in the right side of it. This element of
23:27doubt creates a natural conflict with
23:29the protagonist because of course I
23:31believe this, you believe that, but it's
23:33also attractive to them on some level
23:36because, and again, really important,
23:39your hero is
23:40rational. This is a critical component
23:43of a good hero.
23:45You are dealing with somebody that
23:47probably lives irrationally. Fine. But
23:49they have to have the capacity to see
23:51that maybe there is a better way. Okay?
23:54You're living things maybe the wrong
23:56way, but you need the capacity to see
23:59things going the right way. It is fear
24:03that separates the irrational hero from
24:05their rational potential. And because
24:08they're rational, when they get a
24:10glimpse of this other way of being,
24:12they're going to realize there's value
24:14to it through circumstance or accident
24:17or necessity or another character's
24:19actions. These are all things you're
24:20inventing. But here's why. The hero is
24:23going to experience a moment of acting
24:25in harmony with the right side of the
24:29central dramatic argument.
24:31This could involve their own action or
24:33it could be something that they watch
24:35someone else do or something they
24:36experience passively. But this is why
24:40the magical midpoint change
24:43occurs. See, now you know why. You're
24:46not just doing it cuz a book said these
24:49things generally happen in the middle of
24:51the movie because our hero's belief
24:52system has been challenged. There is an
24:55element of doubt. There is not a
24:59willingness to go all the way and
25:00believe the other side of the argument
25:02yet. They may not even understand the
25:04other side of the argument. There's only
25:06a question that maybe for the first time
25:09they have to wonder if their side of the
25:12argument that they started with the
25:14anti-the maybe it doesn't explain or
25:16solve
25:18everything. Have I been living a
25:21lie? That's what's happening in the
25:23middle of a movie. So, remember in
25:26Finding Nemo, there's a moment where
25:28because Marlin has to rescue Dory from
25:31this field of jellyfish, he invents a
25:34game. She forces him to do something
25:36that he normally wouldn't do. Play. He's
25:39doing it for the old Marlin reasons of
25:42neurosis, but it's working. She's
25:44following him. And as he's doing it, he
25:47gets a glimpse of what it's like to live
25:50without fear. He gets a glimpse of what
25:52it's like to be
25:54carefree, to not worry so much, to be
25:57well, a little less conservative with
25:58your own life. And he loves it. And then
26:02what
26:03happens? She gets
26:05stung. Oh, glorious. And that gets us to
26:10this reversal of theme. The very moment
26:14your hero takes the bait that you put
26:17there to think about maybe switching
26:19sides, maybe switching sides of the
26:21argument, you need to hammer them back
26:24the other direction. The story has to
26:26make them shrink back to the old way.
26:29Dory almost dies in the jellyfish. And
26:32why it happened? Because Marlin decided
26:34in a moment out of
26:37necessity to have fun and then forgot
26:41himself, forgot his fear. And what's the
26:44price of forgetting fear and not being
26:46vigilant? Pain and tragedy. The tragedy
26:50of the beginning is reinforced. And the
26:52hero retreats once
26:55again. It's good stuff. And it means you
26:59have to be kind of mean, sadistic
27:01really. But it turns out that these are
27:05the kinds of things we want out of our
27:07narrative. It's the essence of what we
27:10call dramatic reversal. I'm going to put
27:13aside the examples from Pixar for a
27:15second. I'm going to talk about somebody
27:17real. There's a guy named Jose
27:20Fernandez. This is a true story. Jose
27:23Fernandez is born in Cuba and at the age
27:26of 15, he escapes Cuba with his mother
27:28and his sister and many others all
27:30packed in a very small boat. And during
27:33the difficult voyage, he is awakened to
27:35the sound of someone yelling that
27:37someone has fallen overboard. And Jose,
27:3915 years old, doesn't hesitate. He dives
27:42into the choppy water to save whoever it
27:45is. And it's only when he drags this
27:47person back onto the boat does he
27:48realize he has saved his own mother.
27:52Wow. Jose Fernandez grows up. He's a
27:56hell of an athlete. He goes on to pitch
27:58a major league baseball pitcher and he's
28:00really good. In fact, he's the National
28:02League Rookie of the Year and he's an
28:04all-star. His future isn't just bright,
28:06it is glorious. Jose Fernandez is living
28:09the American dream. And I don't know how
28:11much you know about baseball, but ace
28:13pitchers, they get paid hundreds of
28:15millions of dollars.
28:17But at the age of 24, Joseé Fernandez
28:22dies. He doesn't die from an illness. He
28:24doesn't die from violence. He dies in an
28:27accident. But not a car accident. He
28:30dies in a boating accident. A boating
28:34accident. Now, do you feel
28:38that? Do you feel more than you would if
28:41id said he died of a blood clot? Well,
28:44why? I mean, death is death.
28:46Why does this detail the boating
28:48accident make you feel more? Because
28:50it's terribly ironic. Because this is a
28:53guy who saved his own mother from water
28:56and then he dies in
28:58water. It implies that there's a strange
29:02kind of order to the universe even when
29:04that order
29:06hurts. And this is where we start to
29:08pull irony out of drama. This is
29:10essential
29:12to your choices when you decide how
29:15you're going to push back against your
29:16hero, how you're going to hammer them
29:18back, how you're going to punish them.
29:20Think about um that Pixar short lava.
29:22And I talk about Pixar all the time
29:23because it's just pure storytelling and
29:25they're really, really good at it. So,
29:27he thinks he's alone. He's a volcano in
29:29the ocean. He thinks he's alone. And
29:31then he discovers he's not alone. But
29:33when he discovers that, he also
29:34discovers that she's facing the wrong
29:36way and she can't see him. And he
29:38doesn't know how to sing anymore. So,
29:39she doesn't even know he's
29:41there. Oh, that's terrible. It's
29:43unexpected. It's contradictory and it's
29:46ironic. And that's exactly what you want
29:48to do. So, consider the irony that's
29:51involved with
29:53Marlin. Marlin is worried that he has
29:56lost his son. Every parent who loses a
29:59child, even for an instant, in a mall,
30:00is scared. But that's not enough. Let's
30:04talk about what the people at Pixar
30:06understood they needed to do to this
30:07character from the very start to punish
30:10him so that his journey would be that
30:12much more impressive. It's not enough to
30:15say, "Look, you love your kid. Your kid
30:18is lost. You got to go find your kid.
30:20Everybody loves their kid, right?" Okay.
30:23Well, they go a step further. They say,
30:24"You know what? There's no mom in the
30:27picture. Mom died. It's just you. You're
30:29a single dad. You're the only parent.
30:31You got to find your kid." No, that's
30:34not enough. How about this? How about
30:36your wife and all of your other children
30:39were eaten in front of you because you
30:41couldn't protect them. And the only kid
30:45you had left out of all of that, the
30:47only memory you have of your wife and
30:50your happy life before is one tiny egg,
30:54one
30:56kid. And that is still not enough. And
31:00this is why Pixar is so amazing because
31:02they
31:03knew that the further they went, the
31:07more we would feel at the end. It's not
31:09enough that he only has one kid. When he
31:12looks at that little egg, he can see
31:15that the one kid that's left is
31:17disabled. He has a bad fin. Now it's
31:21enough. Now you have created the perfect
31:24circumstance for that individual. You
31:27cruel, cruel god of
31:30story. Now I know why he's so panicked
31:33that that kid is somewhere out there in
31:35the ocean. When you're designing your
31:38obstacles and your lessons and the
31:39glimpses of the other way and the
31:41rewards and the punishments and the
31:43beating back and the pushing forward,
31:44keep thinking ironically. Keep thinking
31:46about surprises that twist the knife.
31:48Don't just stab your characters. Twist
31:50the knife in them. If someone has to
31:52face a fear, make it overwhelming to
31:55them. Don't disappoint them. Punish
31:58them. Make your characters lower their
32:01defenses by convincing them that
32:03everything's going to be okay and then
32:05punch them right in the face
32:08metaphorically. So, sorry to tell you
32:10that as a writer, you are not the New
32:11Testament God who turns water into wine.
32:13You are the Old Testament God who
32:14tortures Job because I don't know, it
32:17seems like fun. And when you're
32:19wondering where to go in your story and
32:21what to do to your character, ask this
32:22question. Where is my hero on her quest
32:26between theme and anti-theme? Or I guess
32:28I should say between anti-theme and
32:30theme and what would be the meanest
32:32thing I could do to her right now? What
32:34would be the worst way to do the meanest
32:36thing right now? Then do it and do it
32:39and do it again until the hero is left
32:44without a belief at all.
32:46So, as the demands of the narrative
32:48begin to overwhelm the hero, the hero
32:51begins to
32:52realize that her limitations aren't
32:55physical, but
32:58thematic. Or think about Marlin. I
33:01promised that I would never let anything
33:03happen to him. But then, I suppose
33:05nothing ever would happen to him. That's
33:08what Dory says. And Marlin knows she's
33:10right. He knows that if all he does is
33:13basically lock his kid up to prevent
33:16anything bad from happening to his kid,
33:17nothing good will happen to his kid, the
33:18kid won't have a real
33:20life. So now
33:23what? Well, the answer is obvious,
33:26right? If you love someone, let them go.
33:29And I'm sure that in that point in the
33:31movie, if you asked Marlon that, he
33:33would say, "I suppose that's the thing
33:35that I'm supposed to believe."
33:38but they're they can't do it. Not yet.
33:42In fact, you're going to want to have a
33:44situation where they have a chance to do
33:46it and they fail at it in some important
33:50way because they don't really accept the
33:53central dramatic argument you want for
33:55them. They've just lost the belief in
33:59their original point of view. They're
34:01trapped between rejection of the old and
34:04acceptance of the new. They are lost.
34:07Their old ways don't work anymore. The
34:09new way seems impossible or insane.
34:12Shrek doesn't want his swamp back
34:15anymore. He wants love, but he is also
34:17not willing to do what is required to
34:20try and get it. He's trapped. And this
34:23is why they call it the low point. It's
34:26not random. It's not the low point
34:28because the books say page 90 is the low
34:30point. It's the low point because your
34:32character is lost and in a whole lot of
34:35trouble. Their goal in the beginning,
34:37which was to go backwards to the
34:39beginning, to achieve stasis, to reach
34:40aieve stasis, that goal is in shambles.
34:43Their anti-thematic belief, whatever
34:45that was that they clung to in the
34:47beginning of this story, it's been
34:49exposed as a sham. And the enormity of
34:52the real goal that now faces them is
34:54impossibly daunting. They can't yet
34:56accept the theme because it's too scary.
34:59When your core values are gone and when
35:01you aren't ready to replace them with
35:02new values, well, you might as well be
35:05dead. And this is why people go to
35:08movies. So, granted, we love the lasers,
35:11we love the explosions, we love the
35:12kaboom, and we love the sex, and we love
35:14the tears. But what we need from drama,
35:16and when I say drama, I mean the drama
35:18of comedy and the drama of drama. What
35:19we need are these moments where we
35:21connect to another person's sense of
35:24being lost. Because we have all been
35:25lost.
35:27And that's why the ending is going to
35:28work because without this there can be
35:32no catharsis. Catharsis comes from the
35:35Greek word for vomiting. I'm pretty
35:36sure. Um, so just think of a lot of your
35:39plot as shoving really bad food down the
35:42throat of your hero because that's how
35:43you're going to get to this catharsis.
35:45Now, I want to say that these approaches
35:47don't help you map out a second act.
35:49What these approaches do is help you
35:50develop your character as they move
35:52through a narrative. And that narrative
35:54is going to impact their relationship to
35:56theme. And when you finish that movement
35:59of this character interacting with story
36:02so that their relationship to the theme
36:03is changing from I don't believe that to
36:05okay I don't believe what I used to
36:06believe but I can't believe that yet.
36:08Suddenly you'll be somewhere around the
36:10end of the second act. And here is the
36:13big secret. John and I have said this
36:14many many times. There are no acts. So
36:19you can't really be scared of the second
36:21act. It doesn't exist. It's not some
36:23sort of weird wasteland you have to get
36:25through. It's just part of one big
36:27piece. There's one act. It's called your
36:31story. And now we get to the third act.
36:34Sorry, end of your one act. And this is
36:37the defining moment. Your character
36:40needs to face a defining moment. And
36:42this defining moment is their worst
36:44fear. It is their greatest challenge.
36:47This is the moment that will not only
36:48resolve the story that you're telling,
36:50but it will resolve the life of your
36:52character. This moment will bring them
36:54to a new stasis and balance. Remember
36:57synthesis, thesis, antithesis,
37:00synthesis. Here we are again. But what
37:03are you going to do? You have to come up
37:04with this thing. This is the difference
37:06between what I'm saying to you now and
37:07what a lot of books say. Books will say
37:09defining moment goes here. And I'm
37:11saying yeah, but how what makes it so
37:14defining?
37:16You're going to design a moment that is
37:19going to test your protagonist's faith
37:22in the theme. They need to go through
37:25something where they have to prove that
37:28they believe this new theme. Okay? They
37:30have to prove it. It's not enough to
37:32say, "Okay, I get it. What I used to
37:35think was wrong. There's a new way
37:37that's right. That's not enough." They
37:40have to prove it. And they have to prove
37:43it in a way where they literally embody
37:46the point of that idea with everything
37:50they
37:50have. But before you do that, don't you
37:54want to torture them one more time? Of
37:56course you do. The relapse, a nice
38:00ironic relapse. You want to tempt them
38:02right before this big decision moment,
38:04right before the defining moment. You
38:06want to hold that safety blanket up and
38:08say, "Go ahead. Go back to the
38:11beginning. You get it? The thing you
38:13wanted on page 15, I'm giving it to you.
38:17Don't go forward. Don't change. Go
38:21back. And what do they have to
38:23do? They have to reject that
38:27temptation. You design a machinery where
38:31they have to reject that temptation and
38:33then do something extraordinary.
38:37extraordinary to embody the truth of the
38:40theme. And now you get acceptance
38:43through action. The hero acts in
38:46accordance with the theme. Specifically,
38:48by doing so, they prevail. They have to
38:52act. So, let's go back to Marlin. It's
38:55not enough for Marlin to say, "I get it
38:57now. I've heard the wise turtles. I've
39:00seen the way Dory is. I've learned my
39:02lesson. I got to let you live." That's
39:05not
39:06enough. What Pixar does is create a
39:08perfect mechanism to tempt and then
39:10force
39:12action. Dory is captured and Nemo says
39:16to Marlin, "I'm the only one who can go
39:18in there and save her." And this is a
39:20great temptation. This is where Marlin
39:24has to reject the old way. We're saying,
39:27"Go ahead. You got your kid. We're
39:28giving him back to you. It's all you
39:30wanted." On page 15, you just wanted
39:31your kid. Here he is. get
39:34out. But he has to act in accordance
39:37with a theme. So he rejects that and he
39:39says,
39:40"No, go ahead,
39:42son, and try and save her." And that
39:46simple decision is how he acts in
39:51accordance with theme. And it is
39:54terrifying. And now you get one last
39:58chance to punish him.
40:00Briefly, go ahead.
40:03Let's see Nemo coming out of that net
40:05and let's think that he's dead and let
40:08Marlin hold him and let Marlin remember
40:10what he was like when he was in that
40:11little egg and let Marlin kind of be
40:14okay with it because that's what it
40:17means to live in accordance with theme.
40:19If you say, "Look, sometimes if you love
40:22someone you have to let them go," that's
40:24one thing. Actually having to let them
40:26go is another thing. letting them go and
40:28seeing them get hurt is yet another. But
40:32that is the ultimate acceptance of that
40:33idea, isn't it? And that's what he sees.
40:36But then of course, faith in the theme
40:39rewards and Nemo's
40:41alive. So then you get this dumal. What
40:45is the dum? Why is it there? It's not
40:48there because we need to be slowly let
40:51down and back out into the movie theater
40:52lobby. It's there because we need to see
40:55the new synthesis. You have successfully
40:57fired a billion antithesis against a
41:00billion thesis and come up with one big
41:02grand lovely new synthesis. Please show
41:05it to me. So we now see that the after
41:07story life is in harmony with theme. And
41:09here's the deal with the first scene and
41:11the last scene of a movie. If you remove
41:13everything from the story except the
41:15introduction of your hero and the last
41:17scene of your hero, there should really
41:19be only one fundamental difference. And
41:22here it is. The hero in the beginning
41:24acts in accordance with the
41:27anti-the. And the hero at the end acts
41:29in accordance with the
41:31theme. Now, this should all help you
41:34create your character. When you're
41:36creating character, I want you to think
41:38of theme. I want you to imagine a
41:40character who embodies the anti-theme.
41:42You can be subtle about this. You
41:44probably should be. It generally works
41:45better if you are. And I want you to
41:48think of your story as a journey that
41:49guides this character from belief in the
41:51anti-theme to belief in theme. Remember
41:54your god, angry angry god. You have
41:57created this test. That's what your
41:59story is. In order to guide your
42:01character to a better way of living, but
42:03they have to make the choices. Oh,
42:05you've ever heard the worst character is
42:07a passive character. That's why they
42:09have to make the choices or you're
42:10making them for them. And then well, it
42:14just doesn't count, does it? If you can
42:16write the story of your character as
42:17they grow from thinking this to the
42:20opposite of this, then guess what? You
42:22will never ask, "Well, what should
42:25happen next?" ever again. You'll only
42:28ask, "How can I make the thing that I
42:29want to happen next
42:31better?" That's a whole other talk.
42:34Maybe I'll do that one in like 5 years
42:36or something. I hope that you found this
42:38interesting. It was kind of fun to do. I
42:41mean, I'm not going to do it frequently
42:44cuz it's scary. I mean, John really does
42:46run the show, but I but I'm all here all
42:49alone, but I I kind of liked a chance to
42:52at least talk to you directly about all
42:53this stuff, and I hope that you got
42:54something out of it. Um, if you did,
42:57great. Um, and you can let us know. And
42:59here comes the boilerplate. Script Notes
43:01is produced by Megan Arrow. It is edited
43:04by Matthew Chileelli. Our outro this
43:06week is by Well, I don't know, but it's
43:09a surprise, and we'll we'll let you know
43:10who it was the week following. If you
43:12have an outro, you can send us a link to
43:14ask atja August.com. That's also a place
43:16where you can send longer questions for
43:17shorter questions on Twitter. I am at
43:19clmin and john is johnst. You can find
43:22the show notes for this episode and all
43:24episodes at johnhaust.com. That's also
43:26where you will find transcripts. We try
43:29to get them up about 4 days after the
43:30episode airs. Some folks have also
43:32started doing recaps and discussion on
43:34the screenwriting subreddit. If that
43:36continues, terrific. You can check
43:37there. And you can also find the back
43:40episodes of the show at scriptnotes.net
43:42or download 50 episode seasons at
43:47store.ja.com. And I get none of the
43:49money. You may want to check out the
43:51ScriptNotes listeners guide at
43:54john.com/guide to find out which
43:56episodes our listeners recommend most.
43:58And with that, I bid you all good luck.
44:03Go torture your heroes.
44:10[Music]

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