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How capitalism ate the culture — Transcript

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0:00Did that experience sort of
0:03convince you that advertising was the
0:05enemy and maybe a tool that you could
0:07use
0:07>> [music]
0:08>> to your own ends? I found out that
0:10advertising is one of the most powerful
0:14forces in the world. But at the same
0:16time, I found out that this are
0:18strangely
0:19ethically ambivalent types. And so I I
0:23liked the power of what they were doing
0:25and I loved their creativity, which was
0:28sometimes I just blew me away with the
0:30the [music] the the the the subtle ways
0:32that they were able to get their message
0:33across. But uh
0:35but ethically
0:39bad people.
0:40Well, you would call them ethically
0:42neutral. I would call them nihilist, but
0:45uh you know, no need to split hairs.
0:51>> [music]
0:59[music]
1:04[music]
1:04>> Kalle Lasn, welcome to the show.
1:08Happy to be here. It's very cool to have
1:10you here. You have lived a very
1:12interesting life and I think it'll be a
1:14lot of fun to
1:16talk about it. So, I'm pumped.
1:18>> Okay. For people who aren't familiar
1:22with you or
1:24for people who don't know anything about
1:25Adbusters, the magazine you started in
1:29Vancouver back in 1989. Yeah. What was
1:33it? How would you describe it? What was
1:35the mission of the thing? The mission of
1:38Adbusters?
1:39Yeah, well, actually
1:42you know, we were uh
1:45a bunch of environmentalists that kept
1:46on meeting every now and again and
1:49and then
1:50something happened that we didn't like.
1:52The the forest industry here uh it
1:55suddenly came up with a campaign
1:58uh that tried to make British Columbians
2:01feel better about what they're doing in
2:03the forests even though they were
2:05cutting the forests down. Uh
2:08the old-growth forests were disappearing
2:10fast.
2:11But they came up with this campaign.
2:13They called it Forest Forever. And they
2:16said that uh that "Hey British
2:18Columbians, we're doing a fantastic job
2:21managing your forests. You've got
2:22forests forever."
2:24And they had full-page ads in the in in
2:26newspapers and and they had TV ads
2:29coming on and
2:31and this really pissed us off. They were
2:32basically lying to the people.
2:34Uh so we came up with our own 30-second
2:38TV spot. Uh
2:40and we tried to tell the other side of
2:41the story.
2:42And then when I walked into the
2:45into the TV stations here in in
2:47Vancouver and tried to buy airtime for
2:50that the 30-second spot
2:53they said to me, "Oh, Mr. Lasn, sorry,
2:55this isn't really an ad. You can't We
2:57can't really run this." And and and this
3:01uh basically they they said that the
3:02other side, they can tell their story,
3:04but but um but uh a Canadian citizen
3:08didn't have the right to walk into their
3:11TV station into the and and and put
3:13their money on the table and say, "Give
3:15me 30 30 seconds of airtime. I want to
3:17have something to say." They said, "No,
3:19you can't do that." And uh and that was
3:22the moment that Adbusters Media
3:23Foundation was born. That's the moment
3:25that we started a newsletter.
3:27Uh
3:28and we [clears throat] started speaking
3:29back and and then I was invited on some
3:31TV shows and radio shows and and it was
3:34a a cataclysmic moment for me because I
3:38suddenly found out that you can speak
3:40back. Anyway, that's how we were born.
3:42It was born out of this out of rage, out
3:44of anger against being censored.
3:47Especially for a guy like me who was
3:48born in Estonia and and and in my
3:51country, you know, for
3:53you weren't allowed to speak back
3:55against the government. If you were, you
3:57really suffered. And all of a sudden,
3:58you know, 50 years later, I find myself
4:00in the land of the home and the free and
4:02the home of the you know, this free
4:03country. And all of a sudden here, I
4:05found out that you can't speak back
4:07against the sponsor. Well, I I know
4:09there was um
4:11quite a legal battle that ensued, but
4:13were you actually able to get your ads
4:15on TV? Did it make a dent? How did that
4:17play out? Well, it turned out to be sort
4:20of an interesting play because we found
4:23out that when you tell when we told uh
4:26Canadians that uh
4:28that okay, the the you know, your your
4:30public broadcaster
4:32censored this ad, they refused to run
4:34this ad, then all of a sudden everybody
4:36wanted to see the ad. So, it was a like
4:38an interesting activist play where
4:42where the fact that we were censored
4:44actually got more people to watch the ad
4:46than if we actually got on TV because we
4:48didn't have a huge budget. We were
4:50buying fringe time slots and and we
4:52wouldn't have gotten too much play on
4:55it. But because we were censored, all of
4:57a sudden a huge percentage of the
4:59Canadian people actually saw the spot
5:01and it and it created a backlash. So,
5:03why
5:05of all the levers that you could pull,
5:07why go straight for advertising? What
5:09makes advertising such a potent
5:12political force?
5:14>> [snorts]
5:14>> Well, of course in those days, that was
5:16before the internet and and and
5:18basically [clears throat] TV
5:19was by far the most powerful social
5:22communications medium of of of of the
5:24time.
5:25Uh But not only that, when I I I lived
5:27for a few years in Japan
5:29and [clears throat]
5:30in Japan, I had my own company. It was a
5:33and I worked together with the
5:34advertising companies there in in Tokyo
5:37and and I I knew all those ad guys and
5:40and and and I I learned about the power
5:43of of of how you build a brand and and
5:45how especially
5:47the spots, 15 and 30-second,
5:50even 7 and 1/2 second spots on TV can
5:54can capture the public imagination. Did
5:57that experience sort of
5:59uh
6:00convince you that advertising was the
6:02enemy and maybe a tool that you could
6:04use
6:05to your own ends? Well, not really the
6:07enemy. I mean, I I found out that
6:09advertising is one of the most powerful
6:13forces in the world. You know, this is
6:15if you want to get elected or if you
6:17want to get a message across or if you
6:20want to say something politically or
6:21launch a campaign then
6:25then a 15-second spot on TV
6:28uh reaching just the right kind of
6:30audience
6:31that can make a huge difference. That
6:32can tip the balance in in any debate.
6:35Uh
6:36so but
6:38but at the same time, I found out that
6:39this are strangely
6:41ethically ambivalent people. You know,
6:44they you know, they would have a a
6:46tobacco ad for for Philip Morris or
6:48whatever. They're trying to introduce
6:49some tobacco brand into [ __ ] into Japan
6:52and
6:53and I'd say to them, "Well, hey, well,
6:54how you know, why are you doing this?
6:56You know, we don't We all know that it's
6:58it's creating
6:59uh cancer and and and you're trying to
7:01sort of now introduce cancer into into
7:03Japan. You know, what the hell are you
7:05guys doing?" And they said, "Oh, Kalle
7:06Kalle, don't worry about it. You know,
7:08let the client worry about that. You
7:09know, let We you know, our job is just
7:11to sort of come up with the most
7:12powerful way to to get their message
7:14across." So, so they were they were sort
7:16of ethically neutral types. And so I I
7:19liked the power of what they were doing
7:21and I loved their creativity, which was
7:24sometimes I just blew me away with the
7:27the the the the subtle ways that they
7:28were able to get their message across.
7:30But uh
7:32but ethically
7:36bad people.
7:37Well, you would call them ethically
7:39neutral. I would call them nihilist, but
7:42uh you know, no need to split hairs.
7:43>> But but they had they're real human
7:45beings, you know, and and they have
7:46their thing and I think they're like
7:48many other people who work for large
7:49corporations, you know, they do their
7:51job. They think they're doing a good job
7:53and the fact that on some larger level
7:56their corporation [clears throat] is
7:57doing some
7:58really ugly, bad things, you know, uh
8:01I think we live in a world of that kind
8:03of ambivalence.
8:05So, what you were doing, what you've
8:07been doing at Adbusters, um you know,
8:09running these
8:11these counter ads, um
8:13is that what you would call culture
8:15jamming?
8:15>> Yeah, well, that's something that we
8:17started doing in the first few years of
8:19our existence and and it it's the
8:22it it it culture jamming was a term that
8:25suddenly exploded and all of a sudden
8:27uh the young people at that time, they
8:30who felt like the the system they were
8:32living in wasn't right, they felt like
8:33culture jamming was the answer. And but
8:36but yeah, culture jamming was
8:37basically [clears throat] a term that
8:39that we introduced uh
8:40and uh and I guess we Yeah, I still call
8:44myself a culture jammer.
8:45>> [snorts]
8:46>> But these days, I I think of myself more
8:48as a a sort of a cultural revolutionary
8:51and I like to think of of of I like to
8:53sort of ex Yeah.
8:54>> zoom out and and and ask the question,
8:57you know, what do we need to do to
8:59survive the 21st century? That's the
9:01real question I'm trying to answer now.
9:03What were some examples of some of your
9:05favorite or most memorable culture jams
9:08from those early days? What are some
9:10some vivid examples for people who may
9:12not know about it. Well, I think that
9:15we we started this
9:16day, this
9:18this Buy Nothing Day.
9:20And
9:20>> [clears throat]
9:21>> we created a
9:22a 30-second spot that that that pointed
9:25out that uh
9:26that we in North America, we consume too
9:29much. We consume, you know, five times
9:31more than a than a guy in India and 10
9:33times more than a guy in China and and
9:35and and and we have to stop. And and
9:37this and we tried to buy airtime for
9:39that on CNN and a few other stations and
9:42and and they
9:43and and and somehow uh
9:45this idea at that time
9:48questioning consumption was
9:52was anathema. Like like you Even now, I
9:54guess, you can't really speak back
9:55against consumption. Like consumption,
9:57what are you trying to do? Do you
9:58destroy the economy or whatever. But
10:00>> [clears throat]
10:01>> and yeah, that was our biggest jam this
10:03we we we were the first people who said
10:06consumption, let's rethink consumption
10:10and and asking the question, are you
10:12consuming too much? And maybe you want
10:14to
10:15experience
10:17what it feels like not to buy anything
10:19for 24 hours and find out how addictive
10:22consumption really is.
10:24Like and we found out that on on on Buy
10:27Nothing Day people just couldn't get
10:29through the day, not even one day
10:31without being able to sort of buy a Mars
10:33bar or buy something else.
10:35So yeah, so anyway, that was our biggest
10:37culture jam. That's the one I
10:38appreciated the most. You said a minute
10:40ago um
10:42that these days you think of yourself
10:44less as a
10:45jammer, culture jammer, and more
10:48as a cultural revolutionary trying to
10:51figure out how the hell to survive in
10:53the 21st century. Tell me more about
10:56that.
10:56Um tell me more about your your politics
10:58and where you are now and what you think
11:00we have to do. Yeah, well culture
11:02jamming was a a lot of fun and and it
11:05was great at that time, you know, to to
11:07fight back against the power of
11:09corporations that were increasingly
11:11growing more powerful and taking over
11:14the way we live and the way we eat and
11:16the way we drive and the way we
11:17everything we do.
11:19Um
11:20But ultimately, it didn't feel like it
11:22was enough.
11:24Um because uh
11:27you know, all of a sudden
11:29the the big
11:30the big moment for me, I guess, was when
11:33when
11:34when I suddenly woke up to the fact that
11:36yeah, we're now in a
11:38at a time when our consumption is
11:40actually
11:41creating
11:44putting carbon into the atmosphere and
11:45actually
11:46heating up the planet.
11:48And if we keep on doing that then the
11:51things get too hot, you know, then
11:54then this could actually mean
11:57the end of of of the human race. It it
12:00it feel it feels like this experiment of
12:03ours on planet Earth
12:05was suddenly in existential
12:08uh crisis. All of a sudden now we had to
12:11answer the question of of of
12:14how does how does humanity survive
12:16through the 21st century
12:18if we can't stop pushing the carbon into
12:22the atmosphere
12:23and if we can't change maybe the the the
12:27the the the global financial
12:28architecture or if we can't shift the
12:31the paradigm of of of economic science
12:33or if we can't do some of the big heavy
12:37lifts, you know, that we have to pull
12:39off, you know, to to to actually survive
12:42as as a as as a as a people, you know,
12:45on planet Earth then then then nothing
12:48else makes sense, right? All of a sudden
12:50now it became a much more serious
12:52project of of of somehow
12:55heaving politics itself into a into a
12:59new kind of a
13:02direction. It's almost like like we were
13:04thinking in terms of well, well what has
13:06the political left actually done?
13:08[ __ ] all really. What what's the
13:09political right done? Not all that much,
13:11you know. What is all this
13:12voting for the donkey or voting for the
13:15the the the the elephant? What what is
13:17what is all this Tweedledum Tweedledee
13:19politics actually achieving? Are they
13:22actually dealing with the the systemic
13:25changes that need to happen for us to
13:26make it through the 21st century? No.
13:29The these political parties are are
13:31totally bankrupt. They don't know what
13:32they're doing and what we need is a
13:34whole new kind of politics that that
13:36jumps over the the old bodies, you know,
13:39the dead bodies of the old left and
13:40right and and starts thinking about the
13:42new kind of politics where we're not
13:44left, we're not right. We're thinking
13:46about how to
13:48how to
13:50make our way into a future that that is
13:53that works, you know, and and and to me
13:55that's that's that's the sort of a
13:58um
13:59this is the sort of mindset that we all
14:00have to get into now if we're actually
14:02going to avoid, you know,
14:05going into a situation, you know, in 5
14:08or 10 years time where it's going to be
14:10too damn hot to even walk out in the
14:11middle of summer because it's it's so
14:13hot and and and and catastrophic events
14:15are happening all the time and the seas
14:17rising and and and and and and the
14:20[clears throat] coral is dying and and
14:21basically our whole
14:24our whole planet and its system, this
14:26whole experiment of ours on planet
14:27Earth, just basically crashes. Do you
14:29think that the
14:32the system we have, late stage
14:35consumer capitalism or whatever you want
14:38to call it, do you think that this
14:40system is
14:41fundamentally broken and and therefore
14:43something that has to be
14:45dismantled and replaced? Do you think we
14:48are beyond reform, in other words?
14:53I think that it's the current system
14:55that we're living in is is totally
14:56[ __ ] up, yeah.
14:57I definitely believe that
14:59and I've been thinking about it for for
15:00years and years and years. It's not it's
15:02conclusion I came to easily.
15:04But but I don't think that we need some
15:07sort of a
15:09revolution, you know, that throws the
15:11old order and guillotines all the CEOs
15:13and and somehow puts on something
15:15totally new. I think that
15:18that we have to start brainstorming
15:20about what are the the deep down
15:25ideas, what are the fundamental
15:28changes that need to happen if if for us
15:30to have a future. And I think we've
15:32we've sort of zeroed in on a half a
15:34dozen of them
15:35and
15:36if we can if we can actually
15:40take some of those what I call meta
15:42memes, these these big ideas, and if we
15:44can actually
15:46change our communication system and and
15:49and and change surveillance capitalism
15:51and and get rid of the the mind lords
15:53and if we can institute
15:56a true cost market, you know, that tells
15:59the ecological truth
16:01and if if we can uh
16:03come up with a new relationship with
16:06corporations where we, the people, put
16:08corporations back in their box rather
16:10than putting us in their box. I don't
16:13disagree with your diagnosis, but
16:15obviously
16:16the question I keep asking myself is
16:19how?
16:21How do we do that? What is the path
16:23there? Well, who knows? The the future
16:26is always up for grabs. Uh
16:28anything could happen. We could suddenly
16:30find life on another planet and have
16:32some sort of a spiritual awakening on
16:34planet Earth or or maybe God knows, you
16:37know, maybe
16:39a religious leader will suddenly come up
16:41and and
16:42Jesus type character who suddenly makes
16:44us think differently about what it means
16:45to be alive on planet Earth or or or
16:48maybe Gen Z will suddenly get fired up
16:50because
16:51because life becomes intolerable. All of
16:54a sudden you know, life becomes I mean
16:56things are pretty hopeless now and a lot
16:58of uh a lot of Gen Z, especially in in
17:01the rich countries of the world, I mean
17:03they
17:03especially the men, the the the boys, I
17:05mean they they're really feeling
17:06hopeless now. If if uh
17:09if the situation becomes so hopeless
17:12then I think the moment will be right
17:14for a kind of a
17:17an explosion of the mind.
17:20Uh so
17:21it's very easy to say that oh well, you
17:23know, what you're saying is
17:25you know, it's idealistic and it's a
17:26little crazy and you're talking about
17:28magic and and and you know, when I pass
17:30some of this stuff by I pass some of
17:31this stuff by a Bill McKibben, you know,
17:33and he said, "Oh, Kalle Kalle, true cost
17:35markets, that's just a a talking point.
17:37It'll never happen, you know."
17:39But I think that as the planet heats as
17:44the the life on as as things get really
17:46bad, I think the moment will be ripe for
17:50for some kind of a a global revolution,
17:53hopefully a non-violent one. Well, let
17:55me just push
17:57on you a little bit and really against
17:58my own intuitions because I I'm
18:01I I do share a lot of your um
18:04your concerns.
18:06And I hear you, man. I really hear you.
18:08But also, right,
18:10in so many ways the world is a better
18:13place than it's ever been. Less poverty,
18:16less suffering, lower child mortality
18:18rates, more resources, a revolution in
18:21clean energy. We've had Bill McKibben on
18:23the show recently to talk about that. We
18:25are still a million miles from perfect,
18:27don't get me wrong. But we're probably
18:29always going to be a million miles a
18:31million miles from perfect. I mean are
18:32are things really that hopeless and and
18:36catastrophic?
18:37Well, I think that here in uh
18:41uh in North America and then in the in
18:43you know, the one the rich one billion,
18:46the affluent one billion people on the
18:47planet, we still have it pretty good,
18:49you know, the
18:50for us the [ __ ] hasn't hit the wall yet,
18:52you know.
18:53But uh
18:55but I I'm when I was young, I traveled
18:56for three or four years around the world
18:58and
18:59and and and I can
19:01and I have a feeling that in, you know,
19:03in Nepal and in Madagascar and in
19:05Thailand and in and in in a lot of other
19:08countries in the world, basically the
19:10the poor, the not so rich seven billion
19:13people on the planet, I think life for
19:15them is really harsh, it's scary, and
19:18it's getting worse by the day. Uh and
19:22even though on some sort of a
19:24if you zoom right out and you say, "Oh,
19:26hasn't poverty actually got better and
19:27haven't we got all these medical
19:29breakthroughs and haven't we done all
19:31this?" I think it's all true. What you
19:32say is true. But nonetheless,
19:35uh
19:36that's just like scratching uh you have
19:37a monkey on your back and the monkey is
19:39scratching your your itch. What's really
19:41happening is that we're we're in a sort
19:43of a doomsday scenario where the the
19:46planet is heating up and our leaders are
19:48doing nothing about it.
19:50They they we've we've sort of given up
19:52on on stopping our carbon emissions,
19:54especially with Trump in empower now and
19:56and leading the the charge.
19:58Uh, and and our global financial system
20:01is is
20:02is totally bankrupt with a with a
20:03trillion dollars of of of money makes
20:06money makes money kind of stuff floating
20:07on the internet every day and and and I
20:10have a feeling that that despite the
20:12fact that in some ways life is getting
20:14better, in another way if you things are
20:17getting really dangerous now. And we're
20:20in a doomsday scenario. And if we don't
20:22do something about it, then we're going
20:24to spiral into a long dark age.
20:27I think that we're at the we're slowly
20:29spiraling into a long dark age that
20:30could last
20:32thousands of years.
20:34You might be right. I think
20:37deep deep down,
20:40I definitely think you're right that
20:42there's a
20:44a misalignment between our actual
20:46interest as human beings on the planet
20:49and the incentives driving our
20:51institutions.
20:53But I I honestly don't know if you're
20:54right
20:56that the system is going to collapse
20:57soon, which is something you do say in
20:59the book and you're kind of saying here.
21:01I mean, do you ever think that maybe you
21:03underestimate the adaptability of this
21:06thing to just keep lumbering along and
21:08and course correcting just enough to not
21:11die?
21:12>> that uh
21:14I
21:14I think this is sort of the the first
21:16world perspective that you're giving me.
21:17I think you're this is the way it feels,
21:20you know, right here in Vancouver or in
21:22New York or wherever you are.
21:24Uh, um
21:25But, you know, recently, if you look at
21:27the news recently, then in Nepal and in
21:30Madagascar and in in in Thailand and in
21:33a whole bunch of other countries,
21:35uh,
21:36there were many revolutions. There were
21:38young people who just literally couldn't
21:40take the degradation of their lives
21:42anymore, and they rose up and they they
21:44burnt their parliament houses and and
21:46and and and they tried to pull off
21:48revolutions in their countries. And when
21:49I look at the the devastation that the
21:52that the climate change is causing every
21:55every every day now, it it's like it
21:57feels like like like in country after
22:00country all over the world, things are
22:01just getting getting dramatically worse
22:04all the time. I I I don't think that
22:06we're going to be able to model our way
22:07out of this.
22:09Uh, I think that we that for us to
22:11actually have any kind of a future, we
22:13have to stop thinking that
22:15yeah. Let's just ignore it. It's fine.
22:17It's you know, it's going to be normal.
22:19You know, let's just not worry about it.
22:20Let's somehow we'll muddle through.
22:22I don't think we're going to muddle
22:24through. I think we're heading for for a
22:26doomsday scenario. I think that we're
22:28spiraling into a long dark age. And the
22:30sooner we wake up to that devastating
22:33fact, the fact that this human
22:36experiment of ours on planet Earth is
22:37now crashing, the sooner we wake up to
22:39that fact, that the the the the quicker
22:42we'll be able to to come up with the big
22:44ideas, the meta memes, and change our
22:47global system in some way that is truly
22:49sustainable. So, to the the Gen Z'ers
22:52that are watching or listening to this,
22:54um
22:55since they're going to have to save our
22:56asses, uh, what do you want them to do?
22:59I want them to pack up and go to to
23:01Nepal. I want them to pack up and travel
23:04around the world a little bit and find
23:05out what life is really like in the rest
23:07of the world. I want them to stop their
23:09doom scrolling and stop their their
23:12their their their their their
23:13hopelessness and stop their all that
23:16sort of culture jam culture not jam
23:19culture
23:21negativity that they're in right now. I
23:23want them to stop arguing about which
23:25toilet you're allowed to go into and
23:27I want them to to go and find out what
23:30life is really like and and then and
23:32then to become a true warrior for a
23:34future that computes. The Gen Z in
23:36places like Nepal is a quite a different
23:39kind of an animal political animal
23:40compared to the Gen Z here in America or
23:42Canada. I very much agree with your
23:45diagnosis of consumer
23:47culture [snorts]
23:49and the ways it alienates us, the ways
23:51it it numbs us.
23:54And I can see, especially as I get
23:57older,
23:59how easy it is to accept things as they
24:02are, to just
24:04acclimate to the culture.
24:06Um
24:07I guess the question here is
24:09do you think it's helpful, even
24:11necessary,
24:13to judge people? Or do you think it's
24:15more important to focus on the systems
24:17and the institutions and and have
24:19sympathy for
24:20individual consumers who are
24:24as a matter of fact, part of the
24:25problem, but they're also
24:28conditioned by the culture in which
24:31they're raised.
24:33Yeah. Well, you know, I think that uh I
24:36know it's a tough question. It's Yeah,
24:38yeah, it's just it's it's sort of a Like
24:40I have a feeling that uh
24:42especially on the left, you know, we're
24:43sort of
24:44you know, in a culture now where you
24:47have to be nice, you know, you you can't
24:49sort of attack people head-on. You you
24:51can't uh You you can't do uh uh you have
24:55somehow have to respect the other human
24:57being and so on. But but I think that uh
25:00if if for somebody like me who really
25:02truly believes that we're at the early
25:04stages of a spiral into a really bad
25:06place, I think it's time to
25:09to change
25:11the the the aesthetic of how we even
25:14speak, you know, like I think it's time
25:16for us to sort of come up with a sort of
25:18a fuck-it-all language, you know, like
25:20to to say, "Look, we're in you know,
25:22this human experiment of ours on planet
25:24Earth is in mortal danger, and we have
25:26to say it like it is. We have to learn
25:28to be more direct. We we we we have to
25:31you know, if if if you think that the
25:32Gen Z is really [ __ ] up, then then
25:34you have to be able to say it to them in
25:36a way that that that it's like like you
25:38really mean it, you know, and instead of
25:40pussyfooting around and and somehow
25:42expecting that that that you sort of
25:44have to live up to the this idea of
25:46being an a nice guy and and and and and
25:49not pissing I I anyway, I believe in in
25:52saying it like it is now. And uh
25:54whatever few years I have left in my
25:55life, I'm going to speak a sort of a
25:57fuck-it-all language that that that
25:59exudes the what I believe in. And and
26:01what I believe in is that that we need
26:03to fundamentally change a hell of a lot
26:06of things, and we better get used to it
26:08and wake up to it.
26:10I mean, do you think there aren't
26:12plenty of people
26:13saying that now? And maybe and the
26:15problem isn't that no one's saying it,
26:17it's that no one's listening. It's that,
26:19to your point earlier, we're we're too
26:20busy [ __ ] streaming Netflix all night
26:22and tweeting. I think there's a lot of
26:25talk, you know,
26:26and I think there's a lot of people who
26:27believe, you know, roughly what I'm
26:28saying, perhaps, and
26:30but the problem is that
26:32that in our culture right now, there's
26:34too much talk and not enough action, you
26:36know, so
26:38so we we we you know, a lot of people
26:40are able to discuss these things, I
26:42guess, the way we're doing it right now.
26:43But but but how do you then, if you
26:46really believe that
26:48that some some meta big transformations
26:51have to happen in this world, then you
26:54have to ask yourself, "Well, how do we
26:55pull it off?" You know, so for example,
26:57uh recently we had this the 7 million
26:59people go out and do the no kings thing
27:00and and and from my perspective, it was
27:03a a total disaster, you know, it was
27:07it was totally it was totally reactive,
27:09you know, these 7 million went out and
27:11they didn't have a vision of their own.
27:13They they didn't
27:15they didn't tell people what they stood
27:17for.
27:18They basically went out and pointed the
27:20finger at Donald Trump and said, "Hey,
27:22man, you're a bad man. You're a king,
27:23and we don't like you."
27:25So, what did that achieve? What we
27:27should have done instead of seven
27:29instead of having 2,500
27:31protests all around the country, what we
27:33should have had is 250,000
27:36small brainstorming sessions
27:39around the country where 5, 10, 20
27:43people get together and ask themselves,
27:45"What do we need to do to have a future
27:47that computes?"
27:48And if we had 250,000 people
27:52250,000 brainstorming sessions like
27:54that, then something will percolate up
27:56from there, and then then we can reach a
27:58point in a few weeks or a few months
28:00time when we know what we stand for. We
28:03know what the big ideas are that we're
28:04willing to fight for. And then we go out
28:06and protest and say something positive.
28:09We we tell the people of of of America
28:12what we believe in. We stand for
28:14something instead of this reactive
28:16[ __ ] that happened during no kings.
28:19What is in the way? I mean, I take your
28:21point that too much of politics now is
28:23just negation. It's just saying no to
28:25[ __ ]
28:26>> Especially on the left, you know.
28:27>> standing in the way of that What What is
28:29standing in the way of that positive
28:31political project? Is it we don't we
28:33lack a shared story? We don't have a
28:34like a
28:35some kind of coherent ideology around
28:38which to to organize? What is in the
28:40way? Why can't we do that?
28:42Or why haven't we, I should say. I don't
28:45know. I honestly don't know. I've been
28:47asking
28:47myself that question for years, and I
28:50don't really know. I think that uh
28:52I think that surveillance capitalism has
28:54dulled our senses. It has uh
28:57snuffed out some of our empathy. And and
29:00you know, we hear about uh
29:0220,000
29:03uh
29:04bodies of children being ripped apart in
29:06Gaza, and and somehow it's kind of
29:09abstract. It's it's uh it doesn't quite
29:12compute, you know, you say, "Oh,
29:14somehow it may be okay, you know." And
29:17but it's not okay. Like, you know, to to
29:18to to to to rip apart the the bodies of
29:22of 20,000 children is not okay. So,
29:26so yeah, we need more people who who who
29:29have that
29:30who have
29:32the power to sort of stand up against
29:35against uh horrible injustices that are
29:38happening right now in not just in in in
29:40in Palestine, but but in Sudan and and
29:43in a lot of other places. And and we
29:45have to wake up to the fact that it's
29:47our
29:48overconsumption, our decadent ways in
29:51the one rich billion people of the
29:53world, is our decadent ways that have
29:55created a lot of this this this this
29:58suffering that's happening all around
29:59the world. Yeah, so we need some we need
30:02to wake up. I don't know how to wake
30:04people up. I mean, I I write books and I
30:06do stuff and whatever, but
30:08but something has to wake us up, you
30:09know.
30:10And [clears throat] uh
30:12and I think if if the if if something
30:14spiritual like a new Jesus or whatever
30:16doesn't come up and and wake us up, then
30:18then maybe the sheer
30:21pain of living in a world where life is
30:23getting tougher and tougher and tougher
30:25day after day after day and gets to the
30:27point where you just
30:28can't take it anymore and then you're
30:30ready to stand up and wake up one
30:31morning and and you're ready to fight.
30:34Well,
30:35I don't know about a new Jesus, but
30:38culture jamming
30:40is
30:41certainly was
30:42the thing to wake people up and you
30:44know, you
30:46you were doing memetic warfare before it
30:48was a thing, but you know, now the media
30:50environment has has caught up with you
30:52in lots of ways. Everything is memes
30:55now. I mean, memes, that is how ideas
30:57move through the culture. And you know,
31:00looking through those old Adbusters
31:02issues, they feel very modern. I mean,
31:03they feel like they are of
31:06the internet age, but but Adbusters was
31:08born in the old
31:10media world where it was a lot easier to
31:14shock people with images, but now we are
31:16drowning in images all the time. What is
31:19culture jamming 2.0? Yeah, well well, I
31:22think that culture jamming is still
31:23alive, but I don't call it culture
31:24jamming anymore, really. I now call it
31:26meme warfare. I think that culture
31:29jamming has morphed into meme warfare.
31:32And that we What's the difference?
31:34The difference is that the culture
31:36jamming in the old days happened in the
31:37physical environment and now culture
31:39jamming happens in the in the virtual
31:40environment. And so it's it's now a
31:43culture jamming is now a meme war and I
31:45think that we have to learn I think that
31:46the people who who really want to be
31:49revolutionaries, the people who really
31:50want to sort of become effective
31:51activists, I think we have to learn how
31:53to become meme warriors, you know, and
31:55and and at the moment I have a feeling
31:57that the that governments and political
32:00parties and especially uh
32:02mega corporations, they have learned how
32:04to play the meme war. They know how to
32:07fight the meme war. Whereas we the
32:08people are still at the early stages of
32:10not quite having figured out how to how
32:13to fight the meme war and how to win. Uh
32:15and I think that there are a few
32:18tantalizing like for example, the the
32:21one dozen
32:23kind of mini revolutions that have
32:24sprung up recently in in Nepal and and
32:27in in in in Bangladesh and in Madagascar
32:30and and and and seven or eight other
32:32places. I mean, here all of a sudden Gen
32:35Z was
32:36doing something on TikTok and then they
32:38moved on to Discord and and then they
32:40also talked to each other in in the
32:42physical world and I think they cracked
32:44the code. I think I think those in those
32:4612 countries that have recently had a
32:48mini revolution, the the Gen Z has
32:50actually cracked the code of of how to
32:53win the the the the the the meme war,
32:55how to win the planetary end game.
32:57Uh so
32:59I think that uh what has happened
33:01recently in in those those uh poor
33:04countries, you know, those mini
33:05revolutions, I think they they give me
33:08hope. Well, what I mean, do you
33:10do you see examples of people in the
33:12states or or or movements
33:16engaging in memetic warfare in a way
33:18that you think
33:19is effective and and something to to
33:22model?
33:23No, at the moment what I see happening
33:25in the
33:26most of the you know, like in Canada and
33:27and and and Australia and and and the
33:29United States, I mean, to me it feels uh
33:33horribly ineffective. I mean, we're not
33:35talking about the big ideas. We're not
33:37uh
33:38we're not fighting for the the the huge
33:40heaves. We're not launching third
33:42political parties or or or trying to
33:45implement two-cost markets or or trying
33:47to shift economic paradigms or or or or
33:50trying to sort of vanquish the mind
33:52lords.
33:53We're just
33:56I don't know, we're just sort of in some
33:57egoistic trance uh
34:00just somehow uh
34:02scrolling away and and and then being
34:05totally caught up in the surveillance
34:07capitalist panopticon and and and very
34:11little
34:12positive change is actually happening,
34:14you know. So there there needs to be
34:17some sort of a moment of truth, you
34:19know, that that morphs us into that next
34:21level.
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35:25The the difficult question for any
35:27political activist now and we're we're
35:29kind of circling around it is
35:32you know, how do you persuade people?
35:34How do you grow your movement? I mean,
35:36that that's
35:37that is fundamentally the game. And
35:39memes mutate a lot faster now because of
35:42the the pace online and what they seem
35:45to do best isn't persuade, they seem to
35:48be much better at just
35:50signaling in-group identity. But you
35:52know, you want the opposite, right? I
35:54mean, you want to cut through the tribal
35:56[ __ ] Have you has anyone figured
35:58out how to do this in the digital world
36:01reliably? How to do ads without feeding
36:03the engagement algos in the worst way
36:06possible?
36:07>> maybe given the current surveillance
36:09system that we have that's based on
36:11half a dozen of these platforms that
36:13that are sort of run by the algorithms
36:15of the
36:17maybe under that system what you're
36:18asking for is impossible. Maybe the
36:20first thing we need to do is to
36:22dismantle surveillance capitalism
36:23itself.
36:24Maybe it's impossible under the current
36:27surveillance capitalist system for us
36:29human beings to actually talk to each
36:31other with with those algorithms being
36:33the filter that decides, you know, how
36:35we talk to each other and what gets
36:37through and what doesn't and maybe we
36:39need to sort of
36:41come up with a the first big idea, which
36:43is possibly maybe something like a a
36:45surveillance tax where we say to the
36:47mind lords, "Okay,
36:49you want to spy on me, you want to take
36:51my personal information.
36:53Okay, first of all, you have to ask my
36:55permission if and and and
36:57and to do that. And when if I do give
36:59you my permission, then maybe I want to
37:01charge you a fraction of a cent every
37:03time you do it."
37:04Uh and and all of a sudden to come up
37:07with a some sort of a c-
37:09cataclysmic kind of idea that puts a
37:11curveball into the whole uh
37:14surveillance capitalist system. Maybe
37:16it's only that moment when we can really
37:18start talking to each other again and
37:20really start persuading each other again
37:23because at the moment it feels like
37:24whatever we do under the current
37:26algorithms of the mind lords,
37:29nothing can actually happen.
37:32The transition or the path from
37:36memetic
37:38warfare to actual power and change is
37:41always interesting to me and you know,
37:43you talk about it in the in the book in
37:45the context of Occupy, right? You were
37:47very instrumental in the creation of
37:48that movement. It started in many ways
37:50as a meme that that the ballerina on the
37:52bull and that became a a camp and then
37:55it became a worldwide thing, but it it
37:57never quite translated into
37:59institutional change.
38:01Looking back on that, what what was the
38:03lesson for you? That that the
38:04establishment is too entrenched to
38:05reform, that there's too much
38:07polarization, too much surveillance, too
38:08much control of the media, too much
38:10whatever? Well, well, you know, I I was
38:13politicized in 1968 when a a small group
38:16of people in in the Latin Quarter of
38:18Paris uh
38:19suddenly had a little uprising there and
38:22and and and and and that caught the
38:24imagination of the world and and and and
38:27it spread to to thousands of of campuses
38:30and and other youth groups around the
38:31world and and in 1968 for the first time
38:34I saw the possibility that that world
38:37revolution really is possible. It is
38:39possible for for the young people of the
38:41world to suddenly rise up and say, "We
38:43don't like what these old fogies are
38:44doing. We don't like we you know, we
38:46want to have a new world. We don't want
38:47to live in the old world. We want a new
38:49world and we're going to pull it off."
38:51And I and he and and they failed. 50
38:54years later, Occupy Wall Street was a
38:56sort of like a replay of that where
38:58some
38:59some sort of a you know, we we sort of
39:01sparked it and we said, "Okay, let's go
39:03and occupy this iconic heart of global
39:05capitalism in in Wall Street." And and
39:07it happened.
39:09And and and and suddenly um occupations
39:13spread all around the world. At the
39:15height of Occupy Wall Street, there was
39:16over 2,000 occupations all around the
39:19world. And again, winter came and we
39:21didn't quite have our memes together. We
39:23we we we were fighting against
39:25something, but we didn't actually
39:26articulate the big things that we stood
39:29for. Same as in no kings. Uh
39:31and now I believe that the situation is
39:34much more serious and and we have a
39:36third crack at world revolution now. I
39:39think that the the Gen Z and maybe the
39:41generation that comes after GenZ
39:43they will
39:45they will be successful. Third time
39:46lucky. I think that there's going to be
39:48a a global uprising uh first of all in a
39:52bunch of little countries like Nepal and
39:54Madagascar and so on. And eventually
39:56it'll happen again, you know, in in in
39:57in the rich countries as well. And
39:59there's going to come a moment, you
40:00know, when the young people of the world
40:02rise up and and say
40:05we're not going to make it through on
40:06the old order. We need a new world
40:08order. We know what the big ideas are.
40:10We know what we want to achieve. Here it
40:12is. Here's our platform. Let's fight for
40:15it. And there's going to be a
40:18a world revolution, a non-violent,
40:20hopefully non-violent third revolution
40:22that will actually put to put into place
40:24all those big ideas without which a
40:27future is impossible.
40:29What gives you hope that the next
40:32not necessarily Occupy movement, but but
40:34the next anti-corporate
40:37movement, anti-power movement what gives
40:39you hope that that might succeed where
40:41Occupy
40:42failed? Well, I think we're learning. I
40:44think uh you know, we made a step
40:46forward from 1968 to to to 2011.
40:50And and now, you know, 15 years later
40:53I think that we're much more savvy and
40:55we know that the stakes are much more
40:57serious. We know that that is the whole
41:00fate of this
41:01experiment of ours on planet Earth is at
41:03stake. And I grew up in a
41:06in the aftermath of the of the Second
41:07World War, which was the most
41:10beautiful 50 years in human history, you
41:13know. Anything was possible, you know. I
41:15went to Japan, launched a company, made
41:17a million bucks, you know, and and and
41:19uh uh
41:20so I'm basically a hopeful guy. I I I I
41:23believe in in the human spirit. And and
41:26I also believe that the situation is
41:28going to get really dire in the next few
41:30years. And the combination of things
41:32growing really dire and and and being
41:35optimistic about the about the power of
41:37the human
41:39being, you know. I think between those
41:41two
41:42uh
41:43I think we're not going to muddle
41:44through, like you said, but we're going
41:46to push our way through.
41:48Is there anything else you want to say
41:50before we get up out of here?
41:52No, I think I don't know. You've
41:54I've enjoyed looking at your smiling
41:56face and you asked some questions that
41:58allowed me to to sort of get a few
42:00punches in. And I I I yeah, I enjoyed
42:02talking to you. This is a real pleasure
42:05for me. Um I um
42:09I admire the life you lived, the the
42:11commitment and the engagement over so
42:13many years. I think you're a real one in
42:15that way. Um and I have a lot of respect
42:17for that.
42:18Um whether we agree about everything or
42:19not is beside the point. Um I appreciate
42:22that you you give a [ __ ] Um
42:24and you say what you believe. And you've
42:26been pretty consistent um
42:28for your entire life as far as I can
42:29tell. So
42:31I respect that.
42:33Okay. Thank you.
42:36Thank you so much.
42:38>> [snorts]
42:38>> Hey, thanks for watching. Every week we
42:41bring honest and nuanced conversations
42:43about what's happening in culture, tech,
42:45and the world of ideas to your video and
42:47audio feeds.
42:49Episodes of The Gray Area drop every
42:51Monday and Friday on YouTube, Apple
42:53Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite
42:55listening app. Comment below and let me
42:57know what you thought of this
42:59conversation. I promise I won't be
43:01offended. You can also send us an email
43:03at the [email protected].
43:05Or you can leave us a voicemail at
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43:10And if you enjoy what we do, please help
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43:19Thanks again.

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