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How A Small Signal Led To The Most Daring Escape EVER | Oleg Gordievsky (Ep5) — Transcript

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0:04[Music]
0:08On the afternoon of Thursday, the 16th
0:11of May, the thunderbolt struck. I was
0:14sitting at my desk in the resident's
0:15office when the cipher clerk brought in
0:17a telegram. As I read the handwritten
0:19message, I felt sweat break out of my
0:22back, and for a second or two, my vision
0:24clouded. Fighting to control myself, I
0:26was dreadfully afraid that the clerk
0:29must notice how badly shocked I was. In
0:32order to confirm your appointment as
0:33resident, said the cable, "Please come
0:36to Moscow urgently in two days time for
0:38important discussions with comrades
0:40Melov and Ali Ocean." Instantly, I
0:44sensed that something was badly wrong.
0:47Well, welcome to the rest is classified.
0:49I am David McCloskey
0:50>> and I'm Gordon Carrera. And that of
0:53course is Oleg Gordy writing years later
0:56in his memoir Next Stop Execution about
1:00this fateful day in May of 1985 when
1:05he's really on the cusp of an incredible
1:09professional accomplishment becoming the
1:12actual the resident the KGB resident the
1:15most senior officer in London while he's
1:17spying for the British right on the cusp
1:20of this achievement. He is mysteriously
1:23and very ominously called back to Moscow
1:26for consultations. And now, Gordon,
1:28things are starting to look very dire
1:30and very bad for MI6's most prized spy.
1:34That message just come back for urgent
1:37consultations, important discussions in
1:40two days time. I mean, that is a warning
1:42sign. You know, you it's not something
1:44that had been pre-planned. It's not
1:45something he'd expected. There's not
1:48much time to decide. It feels bad, but
1:51of course he doesn't know it's bad. And
1:54so Gordifi is going to call an emergency
1:57meeting with MI6 and he's got only 48
1:59hours to decide what to do. How does he
2:02signal, by the way, for an emergency
2:04meeting? Do we know? It's just a No, I'm
2:06not sure actually at this point. He's
2:08got a he's got a phone number I think he
2:10can call for that emergency meeting.
2:13So he's going to sit down with his
2:15handlers. It's no longer John Scarlet at
2:16this point. And this is a quite a tricky
2:18conversation because on the one hand,
2:23if if they are on to him, he's dead. You
2:26know, it's game over. That's the price
2:28for treason and it's the end of
2:31everything that they've worked for. But
2:33then on the other hand, you know, the
2:34prize is close being resident. And if
2:38they were sure he was a spy, is that
2:40what they'd say? It's not so clear. He's
2:43not been suddenly bundled into a van or
2:45told, you know, he's under suspicion.
2:48So, there's a question, what do you do
2:50about it? This is a really interesting
2:53discussion, I think, and it's quite a
2:55tricky one. And I think Oleg as well
2:57found it a difficult one because he's
3:00going to meet his handlers for MI6,
3:02and they're going to ask him if he knows
3:05any reason why he shouldn't return.
3:09Now the answer to that is no because he
3:12doesn't know that he's compromised. It
3:15just feels dangerous.
3:17And they are saying to him, it's up to
3:21you to decide what to do. You're the
3:23person in the hot seat. You decide what
3:26to do. They're saying, do you know what
3:29that you shouldn't go back? And he's of
3:30course saying no. He said this to me
3:33years later. If they'd asked him, does
3:34he feel he should go back? that might
3:37have elicited a slightly different
3:39answer. And that the option is on the
3:41table to to not go back to basically
3:43defect in in London to just leave.
3:47And I think the MI6 people would say no,
3:51we left it up to him. But I think
3:52Gordifi himself feels that sense of
3:55expectation and pressure from them that
3:57they want him to go back. And you can
4:00understand that a bit. And I remember
4:02someone saying, you know, as he looked
4:04at the faces in the room, one person
4:06thought they saw in his eyes perhaps a
4:08hope for a reprieve and for someone
4:11telling him, "Don't go back." And that
4:13if they'd said that, he might have been
4:15relieved and and that they felt they
4:16could see this in his eyes as he looked
4:18around the room. You know, the hope that
4:20someone might make the decision for him
4:22rather than leave it up to him.
4:25But he doesn't know for sure. And I
4:29think you know he is a driven man. You
4:32know it goes back to where we started
4:34with his character. He is the
4:36long-distance runner. He is the guy who
4:39is you know who wants to finish the
4:41race. He doesn't want to give up. He's
4:44got that endurance, that desire to
4:46overcome the obstacles. He's got the
4:48bravery. He's got the dedication. And I
4:50think as we also talked about, he's got
4:52the ideological commitment to what he's
4:53doing. If this had been someone just
4:55worried about his own safety or about
4:57money, I think you'd go, I'm out, you
5:00know, I'm done. But he just he wants to
5:02do it. He's driven to do it. He's
5:04determined. That ideological component,
5:06it seems hard to kind of even
5:08exaggerated here. It just it seems so
5:11fundamental to who he is that I suppose
5:15at this point with with no certainty
5:18about what's awaiting him in Moscow to
5:21just kind of quit it would seem really
5:24out of character for him cuz obviously
5:26he's also a person who has to have taken
5:28the steps that he's taken he's got a
5:30tremendous amount of courage to me it
5:31would feel out of step with what we know
5:33about Oleg Gordivki for him to kind of
5:35wave the white flag and say well I'll
5:37just defect right I mean if he had
5:39information that that there was a mole
5:42hunt underway inside the KGB. Maybe he
5:45changes his mind, but
5:46>> yeah,
5:46>> it seems it just seems out of step with
5:49who he is to kind of quit before he
5:51finishes the race.
5:53>> Would you have gone back? Would you have
5:55defected? I think I would have gone back
5:57because I know that Gordivki understands
6:01the the nature of the KGB and and
6:04obviously in the way that we're talking
6:05about the organization in this series,
6:07it has, you know, it's a sort of a
6:10villainous place, but you he works
6:12there. These are rivals and whatnot, but
6:14they're also colleagues. He's going
6:17home. I guess with with him being, you
6:21know, sort of on the cusp of promotion,
6:23you could understand how they might want
6:25to talk to you in person about things
6:27before they give you the job. So, I
6:29think given all of that, I I would I
6:31would share his concern, but I think I
6:33would have gone back.
6:34>> Yeah.
6:35>> What about you?
6:36>> I'd like to think I would.
6:37>> You'd like to think so? Yeah. I think we
6:38both maybe would like to think so. Yeah.
6:40>> But in any case, he does.
6:42>> Yeah, he does. He says he goes back. He
6:44says he's going to go. Valerie Petite,
6:46who we talked about before. She's the
6:48person who's been managing his case.
6:50She's the person who's been there from
6:52the late 70s
6:53>> inside MI6.
6:54>> Inside MI6. Yeah. She goes through an
6:56escape plan one more time. He's only got
6:58two days. So, he does his last
7:00assignment on a Saturday, May the 18th,
7:03takes his two small daughters who he's
7:04going to leave behind to a park in
7:06Bloomsbury, but he's actually leaving
7:09thousand pound thousands of pounds of
7:10cash behind an artificial brick for an
7:13agent to pick up, you know. So he's
7:15using his kids as cover there and then
7:16gets on the plane to Moscow. So he he
7:19arrives in Moscow. It's the middle of
7:21May. Once he steps off the plane, it's
7:23too late cuz he's not totally sure how
7:25much suspicion he might be under, if at
7:27all. But immediately there's those
7:29telltale signs, the slight pause at the
7:32as the border guard at the airport looks
7:34at his passport and then the phone call.
7:36Maybe it's nothing, but he just senses
7:38something's wrong. He gets to his Moscow
7:41apartment and then this is the crucial
7:42bit for him is that there are three
7:44locks on the door and all three are
7:47locked and he never uses the third lock.
7:52He only ever locks with the first two
7:54and that immediately tells him that
7:57someone else has been inside who didn't
7:59spot that and has come out and has
8:02locked all three locks. He has to go get
8:04a locksmith to get in. So, he knows
8:07someone has been in his apartment and he
8:10knows therefore it's bugged and he knows
8:11now that he is definitely under
8:13suspicion. He thinks there might be
8:15cameras, but he knows there's going to
8:16be buggy devices. So, now I think the
8:19pressure really starts to mount. But he
8:21hasn't been arrested. He's not arrested,
8:22right? He's not arrested at the board.
8:24You know, when he comes back at customs,
8:26there aren't people waiting to jump him
8:27in his apartment. So, obviously, he's he
8:30understands he's under suspicion, but
8:31he's also he probably thinks they're not
8:34certain, right? because otherwise they
8:35would have they would have hauled him in
8:37at that point.
8:38>> Yeah, exactly. There's suspicions but
8:39not arrests. So he's thinking maybe I
8:42can brazen this out. So he goes to KGB
8:45headquarters and again he just senses in
8:48his colleagues eyes, his close
8:50colleagues, there's just this look of
8:52slight fear in their eyes as they look
8:53at him. He can sense they're a bit wary
8:55of him. There's something going on which
8:58just again just gives them that sense
9:00that something is a miss. But what's
9:03interesting is there's no interrogation
9:05at this point. He's not summoned for a
9:06meeting. They're basically letting him
9:09stew. One thing does happen though. He
9:11bumps into a colleague and the colleague
9:13clearly doesn't know about the
9:14investigation because the colleague
9:16goes, "Hey, you know, have you heard all
9:18the illegals are being pulled out of
9:20Britain." Now, that is a big
9:24red warning sign. These are the deep
9:26cover spies who it takes years to build
9:28up their identity and put them
9:29undercover and and they're being pulled
9:31out of Britain and you know why would
9:33you do that? I mean only if they're
9:35compromised or if you're worried they
9:37might be compromised
9:38>> presumably
9:40as an officer in line PR political
9:43intelligence Goryki did know who those
9:46illegals were right
9:47>> once he's resident. Yeah,
9:49>> once he's resident, he might know, but
9:51up to this point, the reason there would
9:53be any illegals in Britain at all is
9:56because he actually didn't have the
9:57names or identities of those illegals to
9:59provide to MI6. He's got some details,
10:02but not all of them.
10:03>> Okay.
10:03>> But clearly there's a bit of, you know,
10:05there's something going on in London.
10:07And what's interesting is the KGB kind
10:09of let him stew for for a week. a week.
10:13There's a full week of tension before he
10:16gets a call on May 27th saying, "Can you
10:19please come over from a boss? There are
10:21two people who want to talk to you about
10:23highlevel agent penetration of Britain."
10:26It's not good.
10:26>> Disturbing subject line for the uh the
10:28Zoom call invite to arrive. Yeah,
10:30>> exactly.
10:31>> Not great.
10:32>> Um so he's driven to a small cottage on
10:34a compound which is for guests of the
10:36first chief director for which he works
10:38at the KGB. The sandwiches and drink.
10:40couple of guys. Now, only later does he
10:43remember that the other three drink the
10:47brandy out of one bottle, but he thinks
10:49he's served out of another bottle.
10:52Lesson out there for listeners. Ever
10:54meeting KGB officers. Check which bottle
10:57they're serving you out of and make sure
10:59it's the same one. Little pro tip from
11:02from your podcast.
11:04>> Sodium pentathol. We think some kind of
11:06>> I think so. Truth serum. Yeah.
11:09>> Yeah. because very quickly he he says a
11:11strange out of body sensation comes over
11:13him and he's fighting to stay alert and
11:16he'll actually remember nothing more
11:18properly until he wakes up in a bed only
11:21in his vest and his underpants the next
11:22morning. Now he was probably supposed to
11:25have remembered nothing of of that
11:27>> disconcerting way to wake up I would
11:29think
11:30>> like a big night out in
11:31>> he's wearing a a vest and underpants
11:34>> in summer. Yeah, that's all he's left
11:36wearing because he I guess he undressed
11:37in this kind of delirious state. I mean,
11:40I've never had
11:41>> sodium pentathol.
11:42>> Have you ever been fed it? No, it's not
11:45>> not that I know of. Not that I know of.
11:48He doesn't remember the interrogation
11:50though at when he wakes up.
11:52>> Well, he remembers fragments of it. And
11:54that's what's so interesting. And he
11:55thinks one of the only reasons he can
11:57remember some fragments is that MI6 had
11:59given him some some pills to keep him
12:01alert. and he' taken some that morning
12:05and he kind of thinks that might have
12:06just about allowed him to remember just
12:09some bits of it even if not the whole
12:11experience. So he can recollect just
12:13these fragments
12:14and you can imagine him there in in you
12:16know waking up the next morning trying
12:18to remember last thing he properly
12:20remembers is drinking some brandy and
12:22then these fragments come back into his
12:24mind during the day you know there's
12:27questions about books books by Orwell
12:30and Soljier Nitson that he had questions
12:32about why his daughter knows the Lord's
12:34prayer and then he starts to remember
12:36that it was a real interrogation we know
12:39very well that you've been deceiving us
12:40for years someone had said and then
12:43there's an accusation we know who
12:45recruited you in Copenhagen they say and
12:48they mention the name of the MI6 officer
12:50who really had recruited him and he can
12:53remember kind of vaguely saying that's
12:54not true and they're saying we know
12:56you're a Brit British agent you'd better
12:59confess and they just go confess confess
13:02and then they start saying to him you've
13:04already confessed so why not just do it
13:06again and you they're talking to him
13:08slowly as if he's a child and he's just
13:11saying, "No, I' i've got nothing to
13:12confess." And he thinks as he wakes up,
13:16he's pretty sure that he hadn't
13:18confessed. But he knows now that they're
13:22on to him. And clearly they're on to
13:25him, but also they need a confession.
13:27And again, it's interesting, isn't it?
13:29With the KGB, for all their
13:31ruthlessness, they need evidence and
13:33they need proof. They're not just going
13:34to kind of execute some guy without
13:38anything kind of concrete. It's an
13:40interesting contrast in that service and
13:42I and I think it goes back to even
13:45Stalin's day where it's both lawless and
13:49legalistic at the same time. Like you go
13:52back to the terror, they're shooting
13:54people every night in some of these
13:56prisons and yet they need paperwork to
13:59>> to justify it, right?
14:01>> Yeah. And a confession often. Yeah.
14:02>> And a confession often. Exactly. Even if
14:04it's been extracted forcibly, right?
14:08into something very focused.
14:14And it is all about getting
14:16there
14:19PhilB's advice and I always remember
14:20this. He he did a video to did a talk to
14:22KGB officers. I don't think Oleg was at
14:24it. And but I'm sure it got passed on
14:27and and one of his bits of advice was if
14:29you're ever confronted, never confess
14:31because you know they are always trying
14:33to get the confession out of you and
14:35play up how much evidence they have. And
14:38we saw it they I mean they did it with
14:39Betany you know when when MI5 were
14:41interrogating Betany. They have less
14:43evidence than they're making out and
14:45they're trying to use that to get the
14:46confession. So again pro tip for anyone
14:49captured as a potential traitor is don't
14:52confess. Sorry, I'm maybe giving too
14:53much away. But yeah,
14:54>> it also brings us back to this point of
14:58how did the KGB get onto him? Because
15:01one would assume
15:03if Alder James in Miday,
15:08so you know, a couple weeks before this
15:10had given Oleg's name that
15:14maybe you have an arrest. I mean, if if
15:17A says,
15:18>> "We've been getting this reporting from
15:19the Brits and we ran this kind of
15:22analysis to figure out who it might be
15:24and well, like Gordivki is top of the
15:27list or or may maybe I guess speculating
15:30here. Maybe Ames just says we know that
15:33the Brits are running someone inside
15:36Yeah.
15:36>> you know, the resident in London, but we
15:39don't exactly know who it is." And Ames
15:41would not have seen a report from the
15:42Brits that's got Oleg's name on it. So I
15:44guess you could see how given that
15:46filter through Ames and the Americans,
15:49there could be some uncertainty which
15:50would then explain why the KGB wants the
15:53confession.
15:54>> Yeah. But it it it does leave that
15:56mystery of whether it was definitely
15:58Ames. But yeah, so then the next
15:59morning, you know, he sees the two ter
16:01interrogators back at the office and and
16:03rather comically they have a go at him
16:05because he accused them of resurrecting
16:07the spirit of the great terror under
16:08Stalin and and they look really annoyed
16:11about that. So he actually apologizes.
16:13Yeah, they don't like that. The
16:14interrogator that you don't want to hear
16:16that you're a Stalinist interrogator.
16:18Meanwhile, in in London, and this is
16:20also important, his wife Leila has been
16:22contacted and told to the whole family
16:24need to get back to the Soviet Union in
16:27the next few days, and they're told it's
16:28because Oleg has been taken ill. Now, of
16:30course, when MI6 hear this, they know
16:33things are going bad because once your
16:35family's back in the Soviet Union,
16:37they're effectively more like hostages,
16:39and he can't escape. So, they're in
16:41shock. So Oleg's back in in Moscow after
16:43the interrogation. He's summoned by a
16:45boss, and he's told they know, what they
16:47say is interesting. They say they know
16:49he's been deceiving them, the KGB, and
16:52he is no longer going to be resident in
16:53London. But weirdly, he's going to stay
16:55in the KGB. He'll be moved to a
16:57non-operational
16:59department. And Ole doesn't know how to
17:01how to react. So he kind of goes, "It
17:03was a strange day the other day, and it
17:05must have eaten something bad in the
17:07sandwiches." And the interrogator says,
17:09"No, the sandwiches were fine." Got a
17:11weird conversation where
17:13>> this is a strange conversation
17:15>> about sandwiches.
17:16>> It wasn't the sandwiches, Oleg. It was
17:18the brandy. Yeah, the sandwiches were
17:21exceptional.
17:23>> But, you know, he now knows they're on
17:25to him. He also suspects that they don't
17:27have the evidence yet. And what they're
17:29going to do is watch it now, try and
17:31collect evidence, maybe see if he
17:34contacts MI6, because that would of
17:37course give them the evidence they need.
17:39If he tries to run, if he tries to
17:41contact them, that's the evidence they
17:43need. So now he's got a problem because
17:46he's got really intense surveillance
17:48around him. His apartment block is
17:50mainly fellow KGB officers and and
17:53everyone can see there's there's as many
17:55as 15 cars now outside, people outside
17:58the apartment, people in nearby parking
18:00lots, people in a you know in markets
18:02nearby. And the fact that there it was
18:05quite obvious was probably designed to
18:07put Oleg under a bit of pressure to make
18:10him know he was under surveillance and
18:12and he knows he's got to be careful
18:14because if he moves too fast he's going
18:16to be in trouble. I think he has one
18:18advantage though, which is it looks like
18:21they're not using officers from the
18:23seventh directorate kind of specialist
18:26surveillance teams, but they're using
18:28in-house surveillance teams from the
18:30first chief directorate, which is the
18:31overseas bit. And it's the classic thing
18:33whereas you want to it's your dirty
18:35laundry that you might have a mole and
18:37you know, you don't want word to get
18:39out. So, you're going to use your own
18:40surveillance teams rather than tell the
18:41rest of the KGB. But it means they're
18:43perhaps not quite as good as the kind of
18:46elite Moscow surveillance teams. So I
18:49think that might play to his advantage.
18:51Leila's now back with the two with the
18:53two girls. They're age five and three.
18:55He just tells her there's some plotting
18:56against him. Doesn't tell her what's
18:58really going on. He's still not sure
18:59about that. But now the pressure is
19:01growing and he's drinking. We said he
19:04didn't drink much, but now he's starting
19:05to drink and he's smoking. And who does
19:08he go to see?
19:10>> Smiley Mike. Smiley Mike.
19:12>> Smiley Mike. The return of Smiley Mike.
19:14I'm excited that I I feel better now
19:17that Smiley Mike is back in the picture.
19:20I love Smiley Mike and is a character. I
19:22know. Old friend Mika Lubimov, his old
19:24friend, his boss from Copenhagen who's
19:27now left the KGB and become what else
19:29but a novelist.
19:31>> What else? They all try it, David. Not
19:34many succeed, but they all try it. Did
19:36Smiley Mike not succeed as a novelist?
19:38Do we know like how how did his literary
19:40career go?
19:40>> Yeah, I think it did did okay actually.
19:42I think it did okay. He wrote quite a
19:43few books. So he opens the door and Lumi
19:46Lubimov can see Gudfski is a mess, you
19:49know, and Oleg one of the meetings he
19:51steps into the kitchen, turns on the tap
19:53and Lubimov is like what are you doing?
19:55Is this a counter surveillance move?
19:57Turning on the taps and it's just
19:58Cordski is like I'm thirsty. I need a
20:00drink. My throat is dry. I need vodka.
20:03you know, he is stressed and Oleg tells
20:06Smiley Mike that he's been interrogated
20:08about dissident books and you know, one
20:11of the reasons he's telling him is
20:12because the two of them have bought the
20:13books together and uh Lubimov doesn't
20:16realize how serious it is cuz all he
20:18thinks it's about is dissident books
20:20doesn't know about the suspicions. So he
20:22he tells him like, "Don't worry if you
20:24get fired from the KGB, it's not the end
20:25of the world. Maybe you can become a
20:27novelist too. You become a novelist,
20:28too." He's not not aware of the
20:30impending sort of treason charges that
20:33Exactly.
20:35>> But then uh it's interesting because
20:37he'll leave from that first meeting and
20:39and Smiley Mike will go and he'll
20:41actually go and find his copies of
20:43dissident books and then bury them in
20:45the garden, you know, out of fear that
20:48he's going to get in trouble too. So
20:49Gordeski is now you can just sense this
20:52pressure building because also the the
20:54days are ticking on. He's starting to
20:56take sedatives. He's drinking rum, which
20:59I don't think he normally drinks. Rum.
21:01That's what he says.
21:03>> That That seems like a surprising choice
21:05for a Russian KGB officer.
21:08>> Yeah, you'd think it'd be vodka,
21:09wouldn't you?
21:10>> You would.
21:10>> Needs must.
21:12>> Needs must. So, he's starting to think
21:14that he's he's going to have to kind of
21:15trigger the escape plan. Now, this is
21:18going to be the crucial question is can
21:20he trigger the plan and can he make it
21:23work? Can he get to MI6 and can they get
21:26him out of Moscow?
21:27>> Maybe there Gordon with Gordy
21:30about to crack under the pressure and
21:33the impending sort of deployment of this
21:36escape plan. Let's take a break. When we
21:38come back, we will see if he can manage
21:41to get out from the KGB's net.
21:47[Music]
21:50Welcome back. Now Gordiovki Gordon needs
21:54to get out and he is going to be
21:57fortunate I guess that Valerie Petite in
22:01MI6 has actually spent a tremendous
22:04amount of time and energy building just
22:07such a plan to help him escape. That's
22:09right. This goes back actually this plan
22:12to the late '7s and had first been
22:15formulated in around 1978 when Gordifi
22:18is still in Copenhagen and he's going
22:21back to Moscow the first time and MI6
22:24are unsure what might be in store for
22:26him. So they want to have a plan. So,
22:27it's interesting they that already at
22:29this point they get one of the MI6
22:32officers who's based in Moscow to go
22:35find signal sites that could be used for
22:38Gordifi to signal to MI6 that he he
22:41needs to escape or needs to contact
22:43them. And that officer is going to go
22:46around scouting potential sites. And
22:48then he's actually going to come out and
22:49travel out of Moscow via Helsink in
22:52Stockholm to Copenhagen to discuss those
22:54signal sites with Oleg to to see if if
22:58he thinks they work. And this is where I
23:01think it's really interesting because of
23:03course the advantage with Gordifki is
23:06that he is a KGB officer. He is a
23:08professional intelligence officer which
23:10means he understands how to do a proper
23:14signal what the risks are and what could
23:16go wrong and he can help them advise on
23:19the plan all the way through from that
23:21period in the late '7s. There's one
23:23interesting story someone was telling me
23:24which is that you know they were looking
23:25at potential post boxes where someone
23:28could you know post a letter to which
23:30might go abroad or get to MI6 but they
23:33were trying to work out is there a post
23:35box that could be used and this officer
23:37works out there's a particular post box
23:38in Moscow which looks perfect because
23:41it's you know not overseen by anything
23:43it's round a quarter so if you had
23:44surveillance you could lose the
23:46surveillance you turn a corner drop it
23:47in the post box and then move on and as
23:49the surveillance follows you they
23:50wouldn't have seen that And so he says
23:53to Oleg, "Well, this is a great
23:54potential postbox." And Oleg goes, "I
23:57know it. I know it. And don't use it
24:01because it's so good. The KGB know that
24:04any intelligence service will use it as
24:08a drop point and therefore all the
24:10letters in it get checked
24:13and and you know that is the kind of
24:16detail that Oleg can kind of give them
24:19because he is inside the KGB and knows
24:22it. And so originally they're looking
24:24for potential signals back at the
24:25Copenhagen days and there are three
24:28reasons why they might need to he might
24:30need to give a signal. One is that
24:32actually war is about to break out and
24:34he's got to tell them. Another is that
24:36there's a high level penetration of the
24:38west which of course might endanger him.
24:40And the third is that he if he's under
24:42suspicion and needs to get out and so
24:44that's the the original plan from the
24:47the late '7s. And then this gets updated
24:50over the years and is kept up to date by
24:52Valerie and and originally that plan is
24:54for his whole family to be able to get
24:56out and they update it as the daughters
24:58are born to work it out. But now
25:01crucially Oleg has to decide what to do
25:04about his family. And this is the kind
25:06of big decision point and it's going to
25:07have huge consequences I think for him
25:10as a person. And it's hard because
25:14escaping with a wife and two really
25:17young daughters in tow that almost
25:20exponentially increases your chances of
25:23it of being caught or something goes
25:24wrong, doesn't it? I mean it just makes
25:26the odds much harder to get four people
25:29out. two of them who are very young. And
25:31of course, then it's disaster for all of
25:33you if you get caught.
25:35>> Well, and I don't think he thinks he can
25:38really trust his wife, right? I mean,
25:42>> he's got to figure that even if he tells
25:46them like the day of that there's a real
25:48chance that not only would maybe she she
25:51doesn't come or she keeps the daughters
25:54or both or she might then tell the KGB,
25:57right? I mean, she's kind of a KGB brat
25:59herself, right? Her family is deeply
26:01connected to the institution.
26:03>> She doesn't seem to share Oleg's
26:06uh views on the system entirely, right?
26:09And his descent. So, he I don't think he
26:12trusts her,
26:12>> you know? He loves her, but he doesn't
26:15he doesn't trust her with this with this
26:17secret.
26:18>> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So, I think
26:19there's a mixture, isn't there, of
26:20practical reasons why it's hard to get
26:22the family out, but also there's a risk
26:25question there. So, you know, I think he
26:27decides it's safer for not to do it. I
26:29mean, we would obviously never abandon
26:30our families if under pressure in Moscow
26:32and required to get out. But I I don't
26:35blame Oleg, you know, actually. In fact,
26:37I think most people would in this
26:39scenario understand that decision even
26:42if it's going to be pretty
26:43consequential.
26:44>> Well, and it's it's pretty heavy, isn't
26:46it? cuz
26:47>> yeah,
26:48>> his wife is is going away with the girls
26:51up to the the Caspian where her her
26:53father has a DACA and it I mean I the
26:57the kind of way he describes this in his
27:00memoir is is it's really heavy. He says,
27:03"We parted in the doorway of a
27:04supermarket with her mind already on the
27:07holiday and on the clothes she was about
27:08to buy for the girls. She gave me a
27:10quick farewell peck on the cheek. I said
27:13that could have been a bit more tender
27:15and she was gone. not knowing that by
27:17the time she returned to Moscow, I would
27:18be either dead or in exile. I mean, wow.
27:22Talk about I mean, this
27:24>> it's astounding, isn't it? I think I
27:26think most humans would make the
27:28decision to remain with their family
27:31sort of regardless of of what comes. But
27:32he he's so dedicated
27:34>> Yeah.
27:35>> to to this mission.
27:38>> Yeah.
27:38>> To kind of
27:40>> really wreck the Soviet Union and the
27:42KGV from within. I mean, he's, you know,
27:44he's put it above being with his family.
27:46He really has.
27:47>> Yeah. And he'll pay a price for it cuz
27:48he won't see them for years and the
27:50relationships will will never be the
27:52same after that. So, he's he's about to
27:54go away for a brief trip to a sanatorium
27:56out of town and he wants to leave a note
27:58for MI6 and and there is one drop site
28:01at St. Basil's Cathedral, which is this
28:03wonderful, you know, famous iconic
28:05building in Red Square right by the the
28:07Kremlin. So on on June the 30th, so
28:10already like a month and a half after he
28:13first came back to Moscow, he's going to
28:14do a three-hour dry clean to get to St.
28:16Basil's. And he's got a he's got a note.
28:19I always remember him reading this note
28:21to me, and I got him to read it, and he
28:23said, "I'm under strong suspicion and in
28:25bad trouble. Need exfiltration soonest.
28:28Beware of radioactive dust and car
28:31accidents."
28:33And maybe it's worth explaining the last
28:35two because it's not just a random
28:38Well,
28:40it's not it's not this the signs of a
28:41man who's had too much rum. He's
28:43actually very
28:45>> I think attuned to the risk. I So, I
28:46guess the radioactive dust he's
28:48referring to is
28:50>> what I guess has come to be known as spy
28:52dust. It's it's nitrofenel pentadenol uh
28:55which is known as as metka in in
28:59Russian. And I it's basically a tagging
29:01agent, right, that the KGB would use.
29:03They would put it on cars, door handles,
29:07um places where, you know, foreign
29:10intelligence officers would actually
29:12make contact with it and then they could
29:14actually see if it might show up. Like
29:16for example, if they're looking at
29:17Gordivki, they could go in with
29:20essentially some form of like a a black
29:22light and see if he had any of the dust
29:25in his apartment or on his car that
29:28would establish a connection between him
29:30and the foreign intelligence service.
29:31Right. So the dust That actually is a
29:33real I mean very real thing. And then I
29:35mean the car accidents I guess or is
29:37that a reference to
29:39>> staging a car accident?
29:40>> Yeah, staging a car accident to sort of
29:43intimidate someone to create a problem
29:45for them to get, you know, create an
29:46excuse to
29:48>> declare someone persona nonrada. So
29:50he's, you know, these are all sort of
29:52tried and true
29:53>> methods and tactics of the KGB. And so
29:56he's got this note with this warding and
29:58he does this surveillance route from the
29:59department store, this big department
30:01store on the side of Red Square. And
30:02then he goes into the to the church and
30:05I actually I recreated this route in Red
30:07Square many years ago. I think 2009
30:10when I was in Moscow was doing a radio
30:12documentary, you know, about Gordski and
30:14I'd interviewed him and I actually kind
30:15of recreated this route walking through
30:18up into St. Basil's. But when Oleg does
30:21it, you know, he heads to the first
30:23floor and he finds a sign saying upper
30:26floor closed for redecoration. And
30:28that's the place where he was. It's not
30:30what you want to see. And so he has to
30:32walk out and he's got this note and he
30:34basically puts it in his mouth. He chews
30:36it and spits it out. So
30:38>> he's now going to have to try again to
30:40to signal. And he goes and looks at his
30:44uh instructions for the escape plan and
30:47they're kept hidden in the sleeve of a
30:48book. So he has to kind of unpick the
30:51sleeve and you know this is on his
30:53return then from his sanatorium trip. So
30:55we're now into mid July when he needs to
30:59signal for the escape. Now, this again,
31:01I find these signal sites in Moscow just
31:03fascinating because what what they need
31:06is is a site where both him and MI6
31:10could plausibly see each other or walk
31:13past each other
31:15>> and it not be suspicious, but then both
31:18spot each other. and you need somewhere
31:20where that's going to work, you know, in
31:22every season, you know, whether it's
31:24winter or summer, you know, or if a road
31:25is closed. And and they decide on a spot
31:29on a big busy street outside a bread
31:31store near the Ukraine hotel. Now, one
31:33of the reasons is it's not far from
31:35Oleg, but it's also not far from where
31:37diplomats and MI6 officers lived. So, it
31:40meant that they had a reason why they
31:42would be passing that cuz they're coming
31:44out of their apartments, you know, and
31:45going past that every evening. And the
31:50idea is that potentially every night,
31:52but certainly on every Tuesday night at
31:54around 7:30,
31:56an MI6 officer had to pass that site
31:59outside the bread store
32:02and see if Oleg was there. Now, the
32:04first thing is that they have to do that
32:07come rain or come shine always, every
32:10time, and all year. And one of the
32:13interesting things is they have to do it
32:15not just when Oleg's in town or where
32:17they think he might be in town. We have
32:18to do it all the time, even when he's
32:20not in town,
32:21>> because you don't
32:22>> It actually if you if you just do it
32:23when he's in town, that makes it even
32:26more suspicious, right? Yeah. It's got
32:28to look like it's part of an established
32:30pattern of life of the MI6 case officer.
32:33And over time, I mean, in this case, it'
32:36been monitored for seven years. This is
32:38something that's probably
32:40>> whatever KGB surveillance is on these
32:42MI6 officers probably bored to death by
32:44this point and have noted like this is
32:46it's become so normal for this to happen
32:49that it it is it does not look anomalous
32:52at all. But I mean, seven years, 1978 to
32:561985, they've been checking this site.
32:58Remarkable every week. And then finally
33:00on Tuesday the 16th of July 1985, he's
33:04ready to trigger it that evening. The
33:06signal needs to be incredibly precise.
33:08You don't want him to just be walking
33:10past because he could just have had to
33:13walk past and you don't want to trigger
33:15an escape plan and everything else. So
33:17you need to also come up with something
33:19unusual
33:21and quite specific so that if you do see
33:24it, you know that is deliberate and not
33:26just chance. And you know, as we see,
33:29it's slightly absurd. This is a bread
33:31shop where there's lots of people,
33:32including foreigners, kind of mingle.
33:34And the idea is Oleg needs to be holding
33:38a a plastic bag from the Safeways, which
33:41is a grocery store in Britain. and he
33:46needs to be holding that bag and that's
33:48the signal he wants to get out and an
33:50MI6 officer is going to acknowledge it
33:53by walking past him carrying a Harold
33:56shopping bag and eating a western
33:59chocolate bar. It's very specific.
34:01>> It's It's very specific.
34:05I mean bordering on the absurd. I mean
34:07if if someone's life wasn't in danger,
34:09you'd think this is slightly absurd,
34:11wouldn't you? I mean but I guess that's
34:12the point. It's got to be it's got to be
34:14unusual and specific. And someone said,
34:16"Look, actually carrying a shopping bag
34:18or carrying a western shopping bag." And
34:19of course, Oleg had been in London, so
34:21the idea he's carrying a Safeway
34:23shopping bag,
34:23>> it's not that's not abnormal.
34:25>> That's not completely abnormal. You
34:26could get away with that. And the fact
34:28that a Brit is carrying a Harris
34:29shopping bag is not complet, you know,
34:31each thing is kind of plausible while
34:33being very unusual, I guess. And then,
34:36you know, one of the MI6 officers will
34:38say, "Believe me, I've had so many Kit
34:40Kats or Mars bars in the glove
34:41compartment of my car that I absolutely
34:43hate them to this day."
34:47So, so that's the plan. He's going to
34:49trigger it in the evening. Now, the
34:51first problem is in the morning, his
34:53father-in-law calls and invites him to
34:55dinner that evening. I mean, how bad is
34:58that? You know, because the KGB are
35:00listening. It's been two months. He's
35:02been like in this purgatory in You can
35:05imagine the father-in-law is probably
35:07thinking, "Oh, my daughter's gone away.
35:08Poor Oleg's by himself. I'll invite him
35:10around to dinner." And little does he
35:12know, it's like dinner on the evening.
35:13He's supposed to be triggering an escape
35:15signal.
35:16>> So, he says yes, he can make it cuz he
35:18thinks he's got to say he's going to
35:19make it even if he's going to be late
35:21because, you know, you can't he hasn't
35:23got a reason for the And of course, KGB
35:25are listening. They're eavesdropping on
35:26the phone. Then, Smiley Mike calls.
35:28Lubimov calls and and he's calling to
35:31invite him to his dacer the following
35:32week. It's the friendship, isn't it?
35:35He's saying he knows Gordski is in in a
35:37bad way.
35:37>> He knows he's stressed. Yeah,
35:39>> he knows he's stressed and he's saying
35:41catch a train Monday morning, be in the
35:43last carriage, arrives 11:13 to the to
35:45the Dapture and Gordski says yes. So he
35:48walks out midafter afternoon does a
35:503-hour nearly 3-hour counter
35:53surveillance route, summer evening. He
35:55gets near the bread shop. He sees what
35:57looks like a black vulga car used by the
36:00KGB pull up on the pavement and he's
36:02looking at the driver and the driver
36:03looks back and he thinks this is
36:05surveillance and they're on to me. But
36:06then some people get in and out of the
36:08car and it moves off. He's at the point
36:11he's got his bag out. Now, at that
36:13point, the head of the MI6 station is
36:15out for dinner with his wife in the car
36:18being tailed, of course. And he it's not
36:20his turn to check the site, but he's
36:24driving past cuz as we said, it's, you
36:25know, he lives nearby. And as he drives
36:28past the site, he sees a man carrying a
36:31shopping bag just after 7:30 and he's
36:34thinking, I think that's the signal, but
36:36is my colleague gonna see him? Has he
36:38missed him? You know, so he's got this
36:40kind of question in his mind. Do you
36:41turn around? Do you kind of do you
36:43suddenly park the car and acknowledge
36:44it? But that will look really weird,
36:45won't it, if you do that? But
36:47fortunately, his colleague who's the
36:49kind of the second MI6 officer in the
36:51station had also spotted Gordifski as he
36:55drove past, parks his car around the
36:58corner, says to his wife, "I need to get
37:00some bread from the bread shop."
37:03Fortunately, his wife doesn't go, "We've
37:05got lots of bread at home." Like, why do
37:06you why do you need another loaf? She
37:08knows what's on. So he walks out the
37:11car, pulls out his green Harrods bag,
37:13pulls out Amar's chocolate bar, starts
37:16to eat it, walks past Stoleg. The two
37:20men lock eyes just for a second, but
37:23they look at each other, and that's all
37:26it takes. It's on. The escape is
37:29activated.
37:30It's got to get moving now for Pimlo to
37:34be put in place. It's kind of crazy,
37:36isn't it? Just that one second. It's the
37:38magic of a Mars bar, Gordon. Can it can
37:41do do amazing things. And I I mean I
37:43guess
37:43>> this episode is brought to you by And
37:46now a word sponsors.
37:49>> So it triggers it basically will start I
37:53guess two days later. And
37:56>> in that 2-day period, I mean, I guess
37:58one of the things that you absolutely
38:00need if you're MI6 is you need to let
38:03the prime minister know because if this
38:05thing I mean, frankly, if it goes well
38:08or goes wrong, there could be real
38:10political fallout.
38:12>> Yeah. Yeah. And and so at this point,
38:14you need to get political clearance
38:16because getting an agent out of Moscow
38:18is risky. Everyone thinks it could go
38:20wrong. If you get caught in the act of
38:22an MI6 team trying to bring someone out,
38:25it's going to be a blow up in
38:26international relations. And of course,
38:28as we've just said, Thatcher is trying
38:30to improve relations with Gorbachov.
38:32This is a point of trying to improve
38:33relations. And so, it is a decision for
38:36Thatcher to take herself. Here's the
38:40problem. And again, it's like everything
38:42that can go wrong does go wrong nearly
38:45because at that moment, she's not in
38:46London. She's not in Downing Street.
38:48She's up up in Balmoral Castle with the
38:52Queen at one of the Queen's kind of
38:55residences in in Scotland. And they
38:57there's a regular point in the summer
38:58where the prime minister by tradition
39:00goes and stays with the Queen. Although
39:04famously Thatcher and the Queen did not
39:06get on terribly well. I think
39:09>> we saw that Crown too. Yeah, we saw that
39:12in the Crown. We saw this episode I
39:13think.
39:13>> Yeah, I think. Yeah. Yeah. playing games
39:16and Prime Minister Thatcher was not
39:19couldn't kind of get in the flow. I
39:20don't know if that was real, but that's
39:22the image I have when I think about
39:24this.
39:24>> And it's interesting because they're so
39:26careful, aren't they? Because they know
39:27they can't they can't make the call on
39:29the phone to explain it. So, someone's
39:31got to go up there. Thatch's foreign
39:32affairs advisor, Charles Paul, is going
39:34to race to Heathrow, catch a flight to
39:35Abedine, then a car to Balmoral. Now, he
39:38arrives and yeah, I talked to him about
39:40this. He arrives at Balmor Moral and and
39:42and the problem is he's got to see
39:44Thatcher and it's really urgent. But
39:47there's all the kind of am I allowed to
39:49call them flunkies? The the equaries. I
39:51think that's the official term. Strap
39:52hangers,
39:54whatever the correct term is. Sorry,
39:55I'll get into trouble for that. But who
39:57are there to protect anyone getting
39:59close bureaucratically to the queen are
40:02all like, "You can't just walk in."
40:04They're like, "What are you here for?"
40:05And he's like, "Can't tell you." And
40:07they're like, "We're the queen's private
40:09secretary. We we are I
40:10>> we're the we're the plunkies. We're the
40:12plunkies. You got to tell
40:13>> you know he's meeting top the top you
40:16know person the private secretary to the
40:17queen who's like you got to tell me why
40:19you you you want to see that you know
40:22why you've got to kind of break into
40:23this meeting and and see the prime
40:25minister and he's like you know nope I
40:27can't do it. So eventually he does he
40:30does get there. Thatcher immediately
40:33goes yes she's invested in the person
40:36she knows as Mr. Collins you know in
40:38this agent. She's taken a really
40:40personal interest in him, his reporting,
40:42but also his safety. And so she says we
40:45have an obligation and we will not let
40:47him down. So on that level, it's it's a
40:50go. There is another obstacle which is
40:52in London again just by chance. There's
40:56a new British ambassador to Moscow who
40:58is due to go out that week and he's
41:02briefed on the escape plan.
41:04>> It's got to be about this going on in
41:06his first week. This is good. And I
41:09think it's fair to say he was very very
41:11unhappy about it. I mean, which is it's
41:14very foreign office, isn't it? Because
41:16no offense friends at the foreign
41:17office, but I think they don't like a
41:19fuss and they don't like the spies
41:22causing a fuss on their patch, do they?
41:24>> Was he against it, though, or was he
41:26just
41:26>> I think he was pretty upset.
41:28>> Yeah. I think he knew ultimately that
41:31the prime minister is going to sign it
41:32off and it's her call. So he hasn't got
41:34the ability to stop it and that's going
41:37to be made clear to him. But I think he
41:39is pretty much saying this is a really
41:41bad idea and this is going to be
41:42disastrous and you know he can just see
41:44a massive diplomatic row in his first
41:47week when his team are caught smuggling
41:50a spy out and you know he's thinking
41:52this could be the shortest posting in
41:53diplomatic history if I get expelled.
41:56But what are they going to do? Leave Mr.
41:58Collins there to be to be shot like it
42:02doesn't seem like a good outcome. I
42:05asked someone about this when I was
42:07preparing this. So I said to someone
42:08what would have happened cuz Gordioski
42:10triggers this right and then once it
42:13triggers it he gets the recognition
42:15signal from the MI6 officer with the
42:17Marsbar. So as far as he knows it's on
42:20and he's going to start making the moves
42:22as we'll see to get him out. What would
42:25have happened if clearance had been
42:26denied? if they decided it's too risky.
42:30And the awful truth is he would have
42:32made his way, as we'll see, up to a
42:35meeting place and there would have been
42:37no one there to meet him.
42:38>> Yeah.
42:39>> There was no way of contacting him and
42:42stopping his side of the plan in motion.
42:45So I think there's also that kind of
42:47pressure and that obligation to him to
42:49know you are really letting him down if
42:52you don't go ahead with this now. you
42:54know, this is this is high risk to try
42:57and get him out. And there are
42:58definitely people at MI6HQ, you know, at
43:01Century House who think it's a trap.
43:03They think Gordi has already been blown.
43:05He's had his wife recalled. This is just
43:07a trap to expose our officers and to
43:10have a pretext to have a big row and the
43:13whole thing is a provocation. And so,
43:15you know, some of the people pessimists
43:16give it a one in 20 chance of working.
43:19One in 20 5% chance. I mean, that is
43:23pretty bad. And yet, they're still going
43:26to do it.
43:26>> You have a deep obligation to this
43:30agent, right? I mean,
43:31>> yeah,
43:32>> your service MI6 or any intelligent
43:35service really
43:37has to
43:39the the currency with an asset has got
43:41to be some measure of trust, a certainty
43:44on the part of the asset that that they
43:47will be protected if they,
43:50>> you know, sort of fly a signal like
43:51this. I mean, it seems almost
43:53inconceivable to me that at the end of
43:55the day, I mean, the MI6 people involved
43:58in this would have would have lost their
43:59minds if the decision had come down
44:02>> from the Politicos that, you know, we
44:05we're just going to let this guy we're
44:06going to hang them out to dry. I mean,
44:08yeah,
44:08>> you probably would have had people who
44:10resigned the service and and leak it,
44:12you know, if if that happens, right?
44:14>> Yeah. Yeah. There would I think you're
44:15right. There would have been deep anger.
44:17So, they know it's on. So there's kind
44:20of some communication, some cable
44:21traffic going back between the embassy
44:23in in Moscow and headquarters in London
44:26to say, "Right, it's going to be on."
44:28And it's heading towards basically
44:31Friday being the moment when the wheels
44:34start to turn to get him out on the
44:38weekend. So Gordy knows Friday is his
44:41kind of go day. It's interesting.
44:43There's one more phone call though he
44:45makes on Thursday. Again, it goes back
44:48to the really personal nature of this
44:50story because he's going to call Lubimov
44:53Smiley Mike again. And this conversation
44:56I think is really interesting because
44:57it's a you know they have been the
44:59closest of friends and there is an
45:01element of in which Gordeski is going to
45:05use that friendship in a way which I
45:08think is kind of painful to some extent
45:11because Ole calls Lubimov on the
45:14Thursday morning and to confirm the fact
45:15that they're going to meet next week
45:17because remember he said he's going to
45:19the dacer to to Lubimov's dacer and
45:22Lubimov notices this kind of confidence
45:25idence in his friend's voice, which is
45:27different from the nervous wreck, you
45:29know, who was drinking vodka and turning
45:31on the taps a few weeks earlier. Now,
45:34Gordy knows the phone is bugged, but he
45:37then asks Lubimov an odd question. Did
45:40Lubimov remember a short story by
45:42Somerset Mo, this kind of British spy
45:44writer called Mr. Harrington's Washings?
45:48And now this is a weird
45:52reference because the story by Morm
45:56who's a kind of semi-py himself in the
45:58first world war era involved a plan to
46:02escape from Russia over the border from
46:05Finland. And that is exactly the place
46:09where Gordioski is going to go the
46:13following day as he puts Operation Pimlo
46:16into practice. And it it's crazy because
46:20he's saying on a phone which is bugged
46:23to a friend. Do you remember that novel?
46:27And and in that novel are the seeds I
46:30mean in general terms not imprecise
46:32terms of what he is going to do to try
46:37and escape from the clutches of KGB.
46:38It's wild, isn't it? Why do that if
46:41you're Gordivki? The way he explains it,
46:45it's a last two fingers up at the KGB if
46:48that makes sense to you. the two
46:49fingers. I think it's a Brit British
46:51reference to be thumbming your your nose
46:54at the
46:54>> thumb your middle fingers at somebody.
46:56Is it is it does that imply both middle
46:58fingers raised?
47:00>> It's going like that. Sorry to use it,
47:02but it means basically going screw you,
47:04KGB. It's like I'm smarter than you.
47:08>> I'm better than you. I think it says I'm
47:11more cultured than you because he's kind
47:14of like I'm going to have a joke because
47:15I'm going to let you know what I'm
47:18planning to do and I'm so confident that
47:21you KGB guys are so stupid and
47:24uncultured that you will not understand
47:27this reference and be able to work it
47:30out and stop me. I mean, it's it is
47:32crazy, isn't it? But I I kind of like
47:34it. We get a flash of the ego here, you
47:37know, the the sort of sense of
47:39>> because I mean really throughout the the
47:41story we've been describing him of
47:43course as ideologically committed but
47:45also as this kind of very deliberate,
47:48very disciplined guy who was able to
47:52really control himself to an incredible
47:54degree and compartmentalize himself. We
47:57haven't talked a lot about maybe his
48:00ego, but you do kind of get a little
48:01flash of it here of the sense that
48:04there's some catharsis for him in
48:07demonstrating in a real physical way
48:10>> that he is going to win and that he's
48:14superior to them.
48:15>> Yeah, that's what it seems like.
48:16>> Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, he
48:18wants to know and prove and tell them
48:21he's better than them. That's it. And so
48:25he's going to sleep that night, Thursday
48:28night, with the doors of his Moscow flat
48:31barricaded out of fear that something
48:33might happen that night. Although, of
48:36course, if they really want to get to
48:37him, they can. But
48:38>> they'll get through the barricades.
48:40>> They'll get through the barricades. But
48:41I guess it's maybe just again it's just
48:43a psychological thing, isn't it? Cuz he
48:46knows the next day is when he's going to
48:48go. So he's barricaded in him in and
48:51then waiting for Friday morning and for
48:54Friday when he's going to try and make
48:57his run for it.
48:59Well, then I guess it's really escape or
49:02death Gordon for Oleg Gordioski. And
49:05that feels like the right cliffhanger to
49:08end this episode on. And next time in
49:12the thrilling conclusion of this series
49:15about Oleg Gordy, we are going to look
49:17at his escape and see if he can get out
49:20of Russia and get away from the sort of
49:23claws of the KGB. That's right. But of
49:26course, if you can't wait, you can
49:29listen to that episode now and lots more
49:31goodies. You do not have to eat a Mars
49:34bar carrying Har's.
49:36>> We have our own escape for you. We have
49:38our own escape. We have a signal site.
49:41You can go online to the
49:43restisclassified.com
49:44and join the declassified club. No free
49:48chocolate, but bonus episodes which will
49:51tell you the inside scoop for this story
49:55and lots of other exciting things. But
49:58for everyone else, we'll see you next
50:00time. See you next time.
50:03[Music]

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