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History PROVES Catholicism (Full Documentary) — Transcript

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0:00famously it was said by St john Henry Newman that to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant
0:07this statement has frequently been misunderstood by many Catholics and Protestants alike as they
0:12claim that history so clearly shows forth each and every dogma of Roman Catholicism that anyone
0:17with even a basic acquaintance and a degree of honesty could not help but to become Catholic
0:24if St newman meant this he would be rightly criticized since history does not provide us
0:29with a neat and orderly presentation of dogma that we would like yet this is exactly the point that
0:35St newman intends to make in the messiness and disorder of history what is clear is that it is
0:41not the principles of Protestantism steering the ship rather it is only by Catholic principles that
0:47you are able to understand it st newman argues that the Protestants who wield history against
0:52Catholicism end up wielding a double-edged sword a sword which cuts them and leaves
0:58Catholicism unscathed among the arguments commonly employed in apologetical debates there are few as
1:05misunderstood as the idea of the consensus of the fathers yet this problem is not a new one it is a
1:12problem that Catholic theologians have been dealing with for quite some time even in the
1:171950s the sacred theologia Suma comments quote the authors often especially in the manuals argue only
1:25from the authority rather than from the consent of the fathers they quote some fragments of the
1:30fathers in which the same doctrine is asserted which they are defending but this is nothing other
1:36than to confirm a doctrine from the authority of the fathers who are cited end quote this of course
1:42is not to disparage the writing of the manuals but to point out certain habitual problems that had
1:47affected some of the manuals problems which were remedied throughout the early 1900s by the writing
1:53and citing of monographs and journal articles where the teaching of a particular father or the
1:58fathers as a whole were treated in great detail thus in the same vein Degrroot wrote in his suma
2:05apologetica in the year 1906 that quote "The water of wisdom will be purer if drawn directly from the
2:11sources themselves over many generations much has been transferred from one manual to another
2:18like a lifeless and entirely mute mass the mind of the holy fathers lives in their original writings
2:25where the connection of ideas and the very roots of their concepts are visible and if the works of
2:30more recent scholars are not neglected we will more easily discern what should be rejected as
2:36false what should be further investigated as doubtful and what should be adopted as new even
2:42in matters of greater importance with the critical tools of prology the monuments of the ancients
2:49will be as it were renewed and breathe life end quote it is with this flourishing of prology in
2:56secondary literature that in many cases true and proper demonstrations of the consensus of the
3:02holy fathers were made as the sacred theologia sumo points out quote "Surely this proof often
3:08can be presupposed completely or partially made already by the critical additions by petrology
3:15by the history of dogmas and by theology whether positive or historical." End quote yet this is not
3:22a problem that was only in the 20th century but a centuries old problem thus Pavius one
3:28of the greatest ecclesiastical historians and positive theologians that the church has ever
3:32produced wrote a series of warnings and guides in the introduction to his magnum opus the dogmata
3:39Theologica the problem with providing only a smattering of individual fathers rather than
3:45establishing a true and proper consensus is as St augustine points out in a number of places
3:50that we are not unhesitatingly and irrevocably to give our ascent to human writings and thus in
3:56the words of St thomas quote sacred doctrine makes use of natural authorities as extrinsic improbable
4:03arguments but properly uses the authority of the canonical scriptures as an incontrovertible proof
4:09and the authority of the doctors of the church as one that may properly be used yet merely as
4:15probable end quote an evident example of this is found in the Petristic era with the authority of
4:21St cyprien of Carthage who aired on the issue of rebaptism st augustine while maintaining proper
4:27reverence towards him states that he ought to hold the determination of the church over the
4:32determination of a particular author writing be in the church which it is well known Cyprien held
4:39and preached and then dare to name Cyprien as the author of your opinion i do not accept what the
4:45blessed Cyprian thought for the church does not accept this for which blessed Cyprian shed his
4:50blood end quote st thomas states this succinctly when he writes quote "The custom of the church
4:56has very great authority and ought to be jealously observed in all things since the very doctrine of
5:03Catholic doctors derives its authority from the church hence we ought to abide by the authority
5:08of the church rather than by that of an Augustine or a Jerome or of any doctor whatever end quote
5:15further as the 6th century North African ecclesiastical author Fakundus points out we ought
5:21to in their doubtful or unclear statements to read these authors piously and in accordance with the
5:28clearer statements of other fathers writing quote "Just as it is the characteristic of heretical
5:34slanderers to misinterpret what is certain and clear by using what is doubtful and obscure so
5:40it is customary for Catholic prudence and piety to use what is certain written and evident to
5:46clarify and confirm what is ambiguous and hidden therefore it is better for us to interpret the
5:52writings of learned men who died in the peace of the church in the best possible way end quote
5:58further as St thomas writes quote "If there are found some points in statements of the ancient
6:03fathers not expressed with the caution moderns find appropriate to observe their statements are
6:09not to be ridiculed or rejected on the other hand neither are they to be overextended but reverently
6:16interpreted end quote yet as St augustine demonstrates in his PMICS against Julian the
6:22Pelagium that unlike the positions of this or that father the common consensus of the fathers shows
6:29forth the determination of the church he writes that this consensus is greater than if a quote
6:34syninnod were gathered from the whole world thus he tells Julian that such agreement quote ought
6:39to move you since they represent the quote entire church of Christ as fathers sons and judges and
6:46therefore Julian is accused of departing from the Catholic faith in departing from their judgment
6:52so in summary it is clear that we cannot simply rely on the position of a single author or group
6:57of authors since these authors are themselves fallible on the other hand when there is a
7:03consensus among fathers the faith of the church is truly set forth in an infallible manner so in
7:10determining the weight of a certain demonstration of the fathers we ought to consider whether it is
7:15simply a smattering of individual authors and therefore gives some sort of probability to
7:21the doctrine or is it a true demonstration from consensus that renders the doctrine infallibly
7:28true in order to understand the meaning of this consensus there are three errors that we need to
7:33get out of the way in the beginning the first two are used to argue against the idea of the
7:38consensus of the fathers and the third error is used to overextend the concept of the consensus
7:44of the fathers the first error is the consensus of those who do not properly understand the
7:50matter of consensus which is often invoked by liberals and protestants they will often point
7:55out certain agreed upon scientific and historical errors and then reason that such consensus is not
8:01infallible and therefore any consensus is fallible yet this line of reasoning simply misunderstands
8:08the teaching we do not claim that the consensus on any matter is infallible rather we limit this
8:14charrorism to matters of faith and morals this is unlike scripture which is infallible due to
8:20divine revelation on all matters that are truly intended by the human author whether of faith
8:26or morals or of philosophy history or science thus according to the widely cited maxim from
8:33Melcano quote the authority of the saints whether of a few or of many when supplied to those fields
8:40governed by natural reason does not provide certain arguments it carries weight only to
8:45the extent that it aligns with natural reason end quote yet we must always keep in mind that we must
8:51restrict this to only those matters that do not have some sort of immediate connection with divine
8:56revelation as Pesh points out quote "A different case arises with philosophical conclusions that
9:03are so closely connected with revealed truths that their acceptance or rejection directly endangers
9:08the revealed dogma itself." What has been said about the infallibility of the church regarding
9:13theological conclusions must also be applied to the authority of the holy fathers in proposing
9:19such conclusions just as it is the church's role to judge whether a matter pertains to faith so too
9:25does the consensus of the fathers bring complete certainty when they teach that a particular matter
9:31pertains to faith end quote in summary the first error is the error of those who extend the matter
9:37of consensus beyond faith and morals to certain natural matters whether scientific historical
9:44or philosophical that are not immediately connected with the apostolic deposit the second
9:49error is the error of those who object that there are basically no matter where every father gives
9:54his opinion or that in many doctrines there are few fathers who disagree on a certain matter yet
10:01this completely misunderstands the nature of the consensus which is argued for rather than a quote
10:06physical consensus which involves every single individual in a certain group we require a moral
10:12consensus which is simply a representative number that far outweighs the contrary to
10:17where the contrary is simply an exception thus certain fathers like St vincent of Luren will
10:23use the language of quote nearly all in order to signify that there are rarely cases where we have
10:28a consensus from every single father thus also St vincent writes quote whatsoever a teacher holds
10:35other than all or contrary to all be he wholly and learned be he a bishop be he a confessor
10:42be he a martyr let that be regarded as a private fancy of his own end quote this also practically
10:50allows us to determine a consensus which we will go over below for it would be an impossible task
10:56to read through each and every single father to see whether they had a teaching on this or that
11:01doctrine the reason that we hold the consensus of the fathers or theologians or bishops to be
11:07infallible is not because the agreement of all these authors provide us with some sort
11:12of historical certainty about a question this is a common error and is often reflected in popular
11:17critiques of Catholicism by for example Gavin Ortland you know they might quote Newman to be
11:22deep in history is to cease to be Protestant and just say look if so much becomes accidental rather
11:27than essential that's acrewing over time then you have a church that becomes unmed from history and
11:32you're just not tied down to like these fifth and sixth century on the ground realities but
11:38I think we kind of all have to wrestle with that in my book I distinguish between two different
11:42possibilities for what it means to be deep in history mainstream depth and historical depth so
11:48mainstream depth is just whatever happens to come about as the largest view eventually historical
11:54depth is what is earliest even John Henry Newman had to recognize that mainstream depth is not a
12:01reliable guide to truth the simple fact is church history is not the words of God church history is
12:07really messy there are lots of things that almost every Christian today regards as error that became
12:13big and dominant and had a kind of mainstream depth views on sex as only for procreation
12:18views of women as not equally constituting the image of God with men i talk about Augustine's
12:24doctrine of the damnation of unbaptized babies which essentially reigned between Augustine and
12:28the Reformation and then you look at the Old Testament and you see a similar dynamic of the
12:32way mainstream depth could be wielded against the true prophets of God caiaphas the high priest over
12:38and against the apostles could make this kind of appeal to mainstream depth so what a Protestant is
12:43trying to do is go back to what God has said the church never dies god's always at work rather the
12:49foundation for such an assertion is the Catholic conviction that the Holy Spirit guides the church
12:55by its influence in such a way as to preserve the faith in the church through the passing
13:01down of divine revelation that we call the quote living tradition thus while there may be certain
13:07individuals who through their human fault may heir on this or that doctrine the church as a
13:12whole will not spread error as the faith or heresy as truth thus there is also mention as well of
13:19certain authors who lived before versus after a controversy which is based on this consideration
13:26in summary the second error concerns those who misunderstand what is meant by consensus assuming
13:32that this requires some sort of agreement of each and every individual without any exception this is
13:37not the case rather such a consensus can arise later only in a certain period of time or with
13:44certain dissenting individuals the reason for this is that we are not seeking naturalistic historical
13:50certainty when we invoke the infallibility of the consensus of the fathers rather we
13:55are invoking the guidance of the Holy Spirit who will guard the preaching of the apostolic deposit
14:00whether it be the interpretation of scripture or the interpretation of tradition the third
14:07error is one in which certain individuals will attempt to overextend the consensus of the fathers
14:12beyond the scope that we claim often enemies of the Catholic faith will attempt to discredit the
14:18teaching by pointing to certain topics where there was apparently consensus on and then drawing the
14:24conclusion that since we disagree on this topic we must then disagree with consensus as infallible
14:31for example Gavin Ortland recently pointed to a number of issues like this now obviously I
14:37can dispute with Gavin's correctness on each one of these points the fathers distinguish between
14:42a primary and a secondary sense of the image of God the fathers held that the marital use
14:47could also be done for the sake of concupisence and as a good toist I would disagree with the
14:52theologians following Gregory of Rini who argue that the fathers following St augustine or St
14:58augustine himself held to the developed position of the Augustinians on the penisensus for those
15:04dying with original sin alone yet there are other issues where there was agreement among certain
15:10generations of fathers or theologians on issues that we have for all practical purposes departed
15:16from but to invoke this fact as an argument against consensus simply shows the ignorance
15:22of those making such claims on what we actually teach concerning consensus in the Petristic
15:28era we see that such a consensus following St vincent of Lauren was often given a label like
15:34quote steadfast or some similar adjective showing that a position was strongly held this clearly
15:41shows that just not any consensus is needed but a solid consensus thus we distinguish between three
15:48species of consensus if you want to read more about this I wrote an article called different
15:53types of consensus of theologians that follows very closely the exposition of this problem by
15:57Father Shaban you can find that on my Patreon at patreon.com/milligantois anyways something
16:03can either be agreed upon as one a common opinion two a certain conclusion or three
16:10contained in revelation in the first case that is a common opinion there is an agreement that
16:16something is probable and the author may give certain probable arguments for it but it is
16:22not stated in such a way as to absolutely exclude all other positions or all doubts
16:28in the second case that is a certain conclusion there is an agreement that something is certain
16:34and follows on the basis of strong arguments yet it is not something that is immediately contained
16:40in divine revelation and thus not binding on faith in the third case that is contained in revelation
16:47there is an agreement that something is contained in divine revelation and thus is binding on faith
16:52in the third case that is contained in revelation there is an agreement that something is contained
16:57in divine revelation whether of sacred tradition or sacred scripture and thus is binding on faith
17:04it is only in the third case that we invoke infallibility as flowing from or indicated by
17:10consensus thus there can be many issues where many generations of theologians have opinions
17:15that are simply wrong and are reversed by a later age other times there are thesis which
17:21are common for many generations yet there are theologians in later generations who disagree
17:26with the former consensus an example of this is the thesis that sex and marriage when invoked
17:32for the purpose of remedying incontinence is never without venial sin in the one who requests this is
17:38something where it is rare to find one stating it so insistently as to rise to the level of a
17:43common sentence from this it is clear that it was simply the common opinion rather than the type of
17:49firmness of consent required for a true argument from consensus thus the church has tolerated the
17:55opposite opinion and both opinions exist in the church to this day in summary this error does
18:02not recognize that there are different degrees of ascent that leads to consensus it is only when the
18:08fathers stating insistently that a teaching is found in divine revelation whether of scripture
18:13or divine tradition that the infallibility of the consensus can be invoked all three of these common
18:19errors are errors that many of those who you speak to about the consensus of the fathers will have
18:25thus it is important that you clarify that one the consensus must be about matters of faith or morals
18:31two the consensus is not a physical consensus but a moral consensus and three the consensus must be
18:37about the fact that something is found in divine revelation rather than something is merely certain
18:42or probable now that we have went over a few common errors on the issue of consensus how do we
18:49practically determine whether there is a consensus or not first we must clarify what is meant by a
18:55father of the church the definition of father of the church commonly drawn from St vincent of
19:01Len is an ecclesiastical writer recognized by the church's orthodox who was outstanding in doctrine
19:07holiness and antiquity first they must be an ecclesiastical writer an ecclesiastical writer
19:13is simply a writer who wrote under the Christian profession thus even authors like Ucius Tutoian
19:20and origin would be considered ecclesiastical writers although they are not considered church
19:25fathers second they have to be recognized by the church it is not enough for an author to be in the
19:31church and to have written rather their works must be received as authentically expressing Catholic
19:36truth and in constant use for this purpose this can either be explicitly or implicitly explicitly
19:43there have been certain decrees that list approved authors implicitly the approval of certain authors
19:48come from their common use without any sort of restriction thus we need to clearly distinguish
19:53between certain early ecclesiastical authors for example Aristes Tatian Aanagoras Tertullian Origin
19:59Arnobius Lactanius Ucius Ditimus the Blind and Refinus and Trum proper fathers of the church
20:06on the other hand in summary a church father is an approved ecclesiastical author from the
20:13early church who is outstanding in doctrine and holiness this is important due to a principle
20:17we invoked above that is the consensus of the fathers isn't merely about a historical study
20:23of the history of belief rather it is based on the protection of the Holy Spirit thus there are many
20:30older authors who claim to be Christians that are not included including heretics and schismatics
20:36along with certain Catholic authors who are not outstanding in doctrine or approved by the church
20:42an easy way of determining whether someone is a father or not is to look at the reception
20:46of their doctrine and the explicit teaching concerning their usefulness and orthodoxy now
20:52to determine whether there is consensus between these fathers of the church there are two methods
20:56that we can follow first the direct method second the indirect method the direct method goes through
21:03each and every father from every era in order to attempt to establish universal agreement
21:09this method is very rarely used and is often impossible to ascertain yet when this is found
21:14to be the case as the SDS states quote "If it is discovered that they agree then it provides an
21:20invincible and full argument that their unanimous consensus as from a certain criterion of divine
21:26tradition." End quote therefore in most cases we use the indirect method the indirect method
21:32seeks to determine the consensus of the whole from some prominent part as an analogy we might
21:38only pull a certain representative part of a country if we were to wish to determine what
21:42the average is of that country for example in political poll there are a few methods of
21:47determining when these fathers agree and truly present a consensus first is the method of the
21:52principal fathers there are certain fathers who are eminent for their determination of a certain
21:57question and other fathers follow their judgment on this matter thus when there is agreement among
22:03these eminent fathers that a certain matter is divinely revealed and thus binding on faith and
22:09there is no perceptible disagreement in the church then this is an indication that there
22:14is a consensus on this matter according to St vincent of Luren this was actually the method
22:19followed at the council of Ephesus where certain of the most principal fathers were brought forward
22:24and this served as a representation of the other fathers who followed their doctrine on this matter
22:30this is especially fruitful when the eminent fathers in question are those fathers who are
22:34especially received by the church as opposing some particular heresy thus the SDS states quote
22:41by demonstrating some main article of doctrine from one or other father who is recognized by
22:46the church as a leader in the defense of this doctrine against the heretics as was Athanasius
22:52against the Aryans Augustine against the Pelagians Sir of Alexandria against the Ntorians and from
22:58that by concluding indirectly to the consent of the other fathers because as the history
23:03of dogma shows the other fathers together with the whole church applauded these outstanding
23:08ing men for their defense of dogma." End quote second we have the method of the era in certain
23:14eras before there was major disagreement about a certain doctrine or before an adequate solution to
23:20a certain problem was determined it can be quite difficult to determine consensus if there even was
23:25a consensus at that point thus for example in the antonyy church while there are clear indications
23:31of the truth of purgatory in the practices of the church yet it took as keen an intellect as
23:36St a custom to fully formulate the doctrine as a complete synthesis of divine revelation
23:42and the practice of the church so early in the church there are a number of errors from those
23:48attempting to properly teach what is taught by divine revelation on esquetology yet failing but
23:54when the more developed solution of St augustine is presented there is a clear consensus reached in
23:59the existence of such in its general outlines although there were particular questions that
24:04remain unanswered now the basis of the teaching on the consensus of the fathers is that the church is
24:10unfailing in its universal teaching thus where there is a universal teaching of a single era
24:16it is sufficient to demonstrate such a consensus even where there might be disagreement at another
24:21era over the teaching even in a later era yet the same does not apply for certain locations
24:28since while particular churches are fallible a particular era of the universal church is not
24:34fallible thus if I were to demonstrate that such and such a teaching was the teaching of North
24:39Africa it would not reach the conditions required for the consensus of the fathers but on the other
24:44hand if I demonstrated that such was the teaching in the sixth and seventh centuries that would be a
24:50consensus of the fathers although other authors will argue on the basis of the church of Rome's
24:55more proximate guardianship over the west that an argument from the western fathers can constitute
25:01an argument for consensus thus the STS states quote by demonstrating directly the consensus
25:08of the western fathers and from that by concluding indirectly to the consensus of the eastern fathers
25:13also because it cannot happen that in matters of faith and morals the fathers of the eastern
25:19church do not agree with the fathers of the western church which is under the immediate
25:23vigilance of the supreme pontiff end quote to summarize we can either demonstrate consensus
25:29directly or indirectly it is best to demonstrate consensus directly but often this is impossible
25:36therefore for practical purposes we demonstrate such consensus indirectly this takes a number
25:41of different forms including the method of the principal fathers the method of the era and the
25:46method of the western fathers lastly we must be especially careful when considering the question
25:52of the common interpretations of sacred scripture for when there is a consensus on a matter of
25:58scriptural interpretation it is something that is infallible yet in many cases where one would
26:04think that there is a consensus it is not properly speaking a consensus for such a consensus is quite
26:10rare as venerable pest the 12th states quote "Let them bear in mind above all that in the
26:17rules and laws promulgated by the church there is a question of doctrine regarding faith and morals
26:23and that in the immense matter contained in the sacred books legislative historical siential and
26:29prophetical there are but few texts whose sense has been defined by the authority of the church
26:35nor are those more numerous about which the teaching of the holy fathers is unanimous."
26:40end quote this is actually relevant in a modern discussion that is the debate over the age of the
26:46earth often proponents of young earth creationism will argue that a certain teaching on the age
26:51of the earth was the interpretation of scripture given by the unanimous consent of the fathers and
26:57therefore such an interpretation is binding on all Catholics this is an understandable position and
27:02primmaaci seems quite probable yet the argument does not follow the reason it does not follow
27:09is not as some erroneously conclude that the interpretation of scripture does not fall under
27:14the consensus of the fathers due to it being simply and not merely formally a disciplinary
27:19decree of the council of Trent this is an error caught by many who concluding from the fact that
27:25the decree of Trent on the interpretation of scripture is formally disciplinary which they
27:29are correct about erroneously conclude that it is simply disciplinary which it is not in
27:34the language of the schoolmen it is formally disciplinary yet fundamentally doctrinal in
27:40so far as the principle which informs the law is doctrinal rather it has to do with what we said
27:45above about the various types of consensus that can be had the eminent 20th century theologian
27:51Christian Pesh describes three possible situations quote first they reject a certain interpretation
27:57as completely intolerable or propose another as the only Catholic interpretation
28:03for example consider how they explain the gospel narratives about the institution of the Eucharist
28:07end quote in this situation he writes quote "In the first case the interpretation must necessarily
28:13be accepted." End quote further at other times they propose multiple interpretations and use
28:19hermeneutical methods to seek the true meaning end quote in this situation he writes quote in
28:24the second case the interpretation remains open end quote further quote "Sometimes they simply
28:31provide an explanation without indicating whether it is the only possible interpretation or whether
28:36others may also be admitted." End quote in this situation he writes quote "In the third case the
28:42question arises." If a different interpretation were proposed to the Holy Father would he tolerate
28:48it as Catholic or not often this question is resolved by examining the reasoning the holy
28:54fathers use when they seek argue for or doubt the true meaning of a text frequently however
29:00this question can only be answered by consulting later Catholic commentators for if a particular
29:05interpretation is consistently and exclusively proposed as true by later fathers and Catholic
29:10writers it indicates that the earlier fathers regarded it as the only Catholic interpretation
29:16conversely if later Catholic exedites admit an alternative explanation despite contrary
29:22interpretations by earlier fathers it follows that the earlier interpretation was not considered
29:27obligatory end quote therefore we must be careful not only to note consensus but also the insistence
29:34of such consensus thus there can be certain texts of scripture that are interpreted in the same way
29:40by all the fathers yet they did not seek to propose this text as the only possible sense
29:45of the text as an example many theologians mention the interpretation of Hebrews 6 4-6
29:51as referring to the impossibility of repeating baptism this interpretation has a moral consensus
29:57among the fathers yet later Catholic exedites often freely rejected this interpretation or
30:03proposed other interpretations the reason for this has to do with the degree of consensus
30:09this reading was not set forth in a definitive way and thus does not require our ascent thus
30:15the sacred theologia suma teaches quote in the interpretation of holy scripture in order to
30:21obtain an argument from the consent of the fathers that is a certain criterion of divine tradition
30:27it is required first of all that certainty is established not only that the fathers agree on
30:32this interpretation but also that they propose it as the meaning that for the sacred author is
30:36divinely inspired for often the holy fathers attribute to the sacred text a meeting that
30:42is fitting for the rhetorical or aesthetical effect which they have in mind but when this
30:48is the case the argument from the consent of the fathers in the interpretation of holy scripture
30:53in order for it to be a true criterion of divine tradition must assume the same conditions which
30:59we just mentioned above and therefore namely for a lack of some of the given conditions it
31:05is properly explained why contemporary exedites can depart from the consensus of the fathers in
31:10the interpretation of some texts of scripture for example Genesis 7 on the extent of the
31:15flood Isaiah 53:8 on the eternal generation of Christ Hebrews 6:4-6 on baptism end quote
31:23further as Bane says in his de magisterio vivo tradition quote "If the fathers even many of them
31:32speak as private teachers even in matters of faith whether inquiring opining or doubting they cannot
31:38be regarded as the certain and authentic voice of the church this often happens when they interpret
31:45scripture in such cases their interpretation must be considered human rather than dogmatic
31:50thus it happens that later interpreters even cautious and Catholic ones occasionally depart
31:56from the almost unanimous interpretation of the fathers this departure becomes even more likely
32:02when the subject moves further from matters of faith and morals to other topics further
32:08it often happens that the holy fathers aim to derive a quote word of exhortation from the books
32:14rather than to treat the matter exeetically end quote this distinction between interpreting as an
32:19expositor of the Catholic faith and interpreting as expressing certain matters of private opinion
32:25was well known in the preodern era and is not some sort of modern cope to get around common errors
32:31in biblical interpretation this can be proven by abundant citations of St thomas considering the
32:36ex Jesus of the book of Genesis where he always seeks to protect the authority of the holy fathers
32:42thus he writes that such interpretations were made quote not as asserting it but as using
32:47what they had learned in philosophy therefore their statements hold no greater authority than
32:52those of the philosophers they follow except in so far as they are all free from all suspicion of
32:58unbelief end quote thus the only effect of such an interpretation is something negative that is that
33:05such an interpretation while perhaps incorrect cannot be said to be against the faith that is
33:10heretical so uh first uh when it comes to a note on terminology uh this is definitely controversial
33:18uh there's this sort of uh common I it's a common myth uh there's really no truth behind this that
33:25the difference between the evolution of dogma and the development of doctrine is that the evolution
33:32of dogma is the evil modernist uh way of phrasing things and that the development of doctrine is the
33:41true in Catholic way of phrasing things and this isn't really uh true uh this isn't really true
33:48at all uh Catholic theologians actually use both phrases uh but evolution of dogma is the
33:55more popular phrase to use and this is actually seen in the life of Newman uh who is going to
34:00be a recurring theme because I think Newman while certainly groundbreaking on this issue and uh even
34:08continental Catholic theologians recognize uh that he is groundbreaking on this issue uh first uh he
34:14he does have a few um terminological issues uh he has a few uh minor mistakes uh throughout his
34:23uh essay and we can excuse this because throughout the rest of his life he he does clarify in other
34:28writings that people don't read that that's all to say uh when Newman did write uh the famous
34:35uh Peron letters uh he did actually use the phrasiology of the evolution of dogma because
34:41that's just in Catholic theology the more uh popular terminology to use so really we're weird
34:47uh when we use the phrase uh development of doctrine and then uh are scared of using the
34:53phrase of the evolution of dogma but the distinction uh that is present between the
35:01Catholic and then the modernist versions of the evolution of dogmas between what's known as the
35:06homogeneous and then a transistic uh evolution so if you think about uh a transformistic evolution
35:13that would be uh like and we're going to get this get into this uh later in a lot more detail but a
35:19transmistic evolution would be like uh kind of Darwinism uh at least how old Darwinism used to
35:25think like okay we got a monkey and then monkey become man uh that's that's a transformation
35:32right there they are completely different species they're completely different things where uh the
35:40type of evolution that we're talking about is a homogeneous evolution so that would be like the
35:44difference between uh Newman uses this uh phrase this imagery that we uh in Catholic theology uh
35:51generally use this imagery between the seed and the tree uh that is an example of a homogeneous uh
35:58evolution or maybe the history of a certain people um that that'd be another example of homogeneous
36:04uh evolution or uh we can think of a thinker who works out uh throughout his entire life um a a
36:13certain idea that he had when he was younger uh that's another example of a homogeneous evolution
36:20so again um the modernistic theory was condemned and this language of the evolution of dogma
36:27uh definitely was taken over by the modernists and uh seen as their sole uh property but uh either
36:37way we should take the advice of St augustine and Datrina Christiana where he says if they who are
36:44called philosophers particularly the platonists have said things that are true and in conformity
36:48with our faith not only are these not to be feared but they should be rested from them as from unjust
36:54possessors and turned to our advantage so there is some areas of truth that are present in some of
37:03uh some of what the modernists have said uh but again fundamentally they're heretical so what we
37:09ought to do is we ought to restore it uh in Christ and we ought to cleanse away all of the
37:15errors and to take it back uh for ourselves so we ought not to be scared of the terminology or even
37:21some of the ideas uh but we ought to recognize that every error really has its uh foundation
37:28in a corruption of truth so uh in in order to uh prove this because I can I can already hear
37:36uh the very aggressive uh Newman hater tread types saying that I am being utterly uh modernistic
37:46right now and using this language of the evolution of dogma or even the idea of evolution of dogma i
37:51just wanted to quote some principal uh theologians that are uh traditional and anti-modernistic
37:59so the first is Cardinal Bo in his decclesia Christi thesis 17 he says quote this law of
38:06evolution which rules all living organisms we see verified also in the church of Christ which while
38:13uh suously uh guarding the dogmas entrusted to her detracts nothing from them in treating
38:19faithfully and wisely the old doctrine she pursues with all diligence this one endeavor
38:24to determine and perfect that which previously was formless in inco Kate to consolidate and
38:30firm up that which is already expressly stated and explained to safeguard what which is that
38:37which is already firmly established and defined and then also uh manscior van nort in his de
38:46fontibus uh revelation he says in the first place it is certain that the increase of which we have
38:53spoken does not involve a change in the doctrine itself but an organic unfolding or evolution of
39:00the same preaching of the same faith just as the adult is not a different man from the child in
39:06spite of the fact that his bodily members have grown considerably in size and strength in like
39:11manner the preaching of the church remains always the same in reality even if with the passing of
39:16time it has evolved or become more developed and then uh father Berier which uh he was a Dominican
39:24theologian not many know him unfortunately but he was uh famous for his deois uh he says quote
39:31hence it is clear that for us the unfolding of the doctrine handed down is in no way a uh permutation
39:38but an evolution or progress of the same truth not with regard to its substance but with regard
39:44to its explication sometimes in the history of theology there are certain important figures
39:51that are more or less lost these individuals are authors of important theological works and
39:57play central roles in important controversies yet they are ignored for many generations thus
40:05it is important for each generation of theology to read carefully not only those authors that
40:10are widely referenced and studied but also those lesserknown figures that escape the notice of the
40:16masses seeking lost gems that can contribute to our understanding of divine revelation
40:23one of the most egregious examples of an important loss is the church father St optatus a North
40:29African saint and theological writer who has often been called the least known of the fathers of the
40:35church what is even more unfortunate is that St octatus is one of the most important sources that
40:42can be used against the Protestant understanding of the church and is a key to understanding St
40:46augustine's opposition to the Donatists little is known about St in Octatus's life but we do
40:53know a few important biographical details we know from St augustine that he was a convert to the
40:58faith before his conversion he was likely a pagan rhetoric which can be gathered from his excellent
41:05Latin from him only a single book has come down his magnum opus against the Donatist which he
41:12actually revised throughout his life resulting in multiple additions he actually provides us in
41:18an appendix to his work with invaluable primary source material on the Donatus schism and in the
41:24first book of his work our earliest historical narrative of the circumstances surrounding
41:30the Donatist schism the entire work against the Donatists answers a question that is perpetually
41:36relevant and especially relevant among many of you how do we distinguish the true church from
41:43the false churches before the 20th century there was only one vernacular translation
41:49of the work of St octatus against the Donatists a French translation in the year 1564 which was
41:56so rare that the English translator of the work in 1917 was not able to find a single copy in the
42:0419th century there was an announcement that the Petristic collection called the Oxford Library of
42:09the Fathers would include an addition of the work yet the translation never came to pass
42:16neither did the shaft collection of the church fathers include a translation of St optatus even
42:22though he is one of the most important authors in the Donatist controversy it wasn't until the
42:28year 1702 that there was a Latin edition of the original text in print done by Dupin in Paris yet
42:36this text was nearly impossible to find outside of large research libraries and it wasn't until
42:42the year 1870 that the famous ecclesiastical historian Father Hugo voner remedied this and
42:49published the text of Dupin in short form with notes so that it would be accessible to a wider
42:55audience it wasn't until 1893 that there was a critical edition of the text with serious text
43:02critical notes the ignorance of St octatus was so bad that in the early 20th century the English
43:08translator of St optatus commented that quote "It is not too much to say that the very name
43:14of Octatus is barely known even to many students of theology and ecclesiastical history." End quote
43:22this is unfortunate since St octatus provides us with a systematic treatment of determining the
43:28true church by way of the marks of the church and also provides us with a sublime example of
43:34charity and pmics st optatus is clear in referring to the schismatic Donatus as brothers reflecting
43:41a pmical methodology common among the saints and especially emphasized by the magisterium
43:47of the church in recent years he writes quote lest anyone should say that without thought I call them
43:54brethren i would reply that such they are for we cannot escape from the words of the prophet Isaiah
44:00and although they would not deny as all men know well that they hold us in abhorance and ban us
44:07utterly and are unwilling to be called our brethren still we may not depart from the
44:13fear of God for the Holy Spirit exhorts us by Isaiah the prophet saying "You who fear the
44:18word of the Lord hear ye the word of the Lord to those who detest and curse you and are unwilling
44:24to be called your brethren say ye nevertheless you are our brethren they therefore are without doubt
44:30brothers though not good brothers wherefore let no one marvel that I term them brothers who are
44:36unable to escape being our brethren they and we have one spiritual birth that is baptism though
44:43widely differing in our conduct end quote he goes on later in the work to teach that the Donatus
44:49and Catholics are made brothers by baptism and retain some sort of partial communion saying quote
44:55you will not have peace with us that is with your brothers for you cannot escape being our brothers
45:01you whom together with us one mother church has borne from the same bowels of her sacraments
45:07and whom God the father has received in the same manner as sons of adoption accordingly if things
45:13which have been prescribed may not be changed you see that we have not been absolutely divided from
45:19one another whilst we willingly pray for you and you though unwillingly pray for us you perceive
45:26my brother Parmminian that the bonds of holy brotherhood between you and us do not admit of
45:32being absolutely broken." End quote this is also something that is witnessed to by St augustine
45:39who also was clear to call the Donatus brothers thus when St augustine was refuting Galdensius
45:45the Donatus quote "Come now brother Godius do not waste the opportunity the Lord has given you even
45:51through your own words or are you perhaps angered that I call you brother for you rejected this term
45:56in our conference showing that we are the ones to whom the Lord commanded through the prophet
46:02say you are our brothers to those who hate and detest you but you are among those who hate and
46:07detest those to whom the Lord speaks these words." End quote the charity of calling them brethren is
46:13even more striking we consider the long history of abuse that the Catholics had suffered at the
46:18hands of the Donatists these abuses ranged from desecration of the Eucharist to murder
46:23to the defiling of nuns as a few examples first he mentions how Donathus slaughtered Catholic
46:30deacons writing quote "So soon as they saw that the basilica notwithstanding their clamors was
46:36closed against them they commanded their followers to climb to the top strip the roof and throw down
46:42the tiles these orders were executed without delay in the defense of the altar a number of Catholic
46:48deacons were wounded with tiles of whom two were killed primus the son of Jenerius and Donathus
46:54the son of Nenus your fellow bishops whose names I have just given were present and urged them on
47:02end quote second the Donatus assaulted Catholics at random going so far as to slaughter infants and
47:09force pregnant women to misaryry saying quote "These men upset the minds of quiet people
47:15who were established in unity and aided by the favor and fury of certain officials and the very
47:21presence of Athenius the magistrate with colors flying broke up the Catholic assemblies with
47:26bloodshed catholics were driven out from their homes their men were wounded their women were
47:32dragged into captivity their infants were slain mothers miscarried end quote third they attempted
47:39to feed the Eucharist to dogs but were instead attacked by the dogs quote Moreover a hideous
47:45crime which seems to you something of little importance was committed in such a fashion that
47:50your above mentioned fellow bishops profaneed everything which is most holy they commanded
47:56the Eucharist to be cast to the dogs this did not pass without evidence of the divine judgment for
48:02these same dogs were inflamed with madness and tore their own masters in pieces as though they
48:07had been murderers and attacked with avenging teeth those guilty of the holy body as if they
48:13had been strangers and enemies they also threw a vial of crism out of a window in order to break it
48:20and although its fall was precipitated by violence an angel's hand was there to bring it down gently
48:26to earth with the support that is from heaven being thrown away it was not allowed to feel
48:32its fall but by the protection of God found its home unbroken amongst the rocks end quote fourth
48:39they also made a practice of seducing nuns quote "When the Donatus bishops came back they found
48:46that nuns whom they had seduced from their state of chastity had become mothers one of the Donatus
48:52bishops among his other crimes and horrible misdeeds teased a young maiden to whom he himself
48:58had given the veil by whom he had a short time before been called by the name father and did not
49:04hesitate in the least to be guilty of shameless incest." End quote further St optatus is clear
49:10to distinguish between those who are culpable for their schism and those who are inculpable
49:15for their schism which in modern theological terminology we call the distinction between
49:20formal and material schismatics he writes if you do not know this learn if you do know this blush
49:29Ignorance cannot be attributed to you it follows that you know for one who knows to heir is sin
49:35those who do not know may sometimes be pardoned end quote this distinction is especially employed
49:42when distinguishing the originators of a schism from those who have been born into a schism quote
49:48"If as I said your forefathers had come of their own accord to the Catholic Church perhaps our
49:54fathers would have hesitated about receiving them because they had been betrayers but we have caused
50:01for rejoicing that none guilty of betrayal have lived down to our times." So today we find quite
50:07a new state of affairs since we have to deal not with them but with you although it appears that a
50:14stain has passed from them to you by inheritance nevertheless you cannot on this ground be held
50:21guilty together with your fathers according to the judgment of God your fathers who are proven
50:26to have done these things in the days of unity have fallen away from the number of the living
50:32leaving you as it were an inherited stain which God has already washed away by his providence
50:38when he made a distinction as we have said above between fathers and their sons accordingly since
50:45betrayal is a sin your fathers must see to it as to what answer they may make in the judgment
50:51of God but your sin it cannot be since you are living in other times end quote although even with
50:59these points noted St.atus does not mince words against the Donatus or due to the possibility of
51:05ignorance in the presence of a common baptism pretend that such a schism is not a big deal in
51:11fact he points out that God treats schism with more severity than even murder or idolatry he
51:17writes quote "By the commandments of God three things are amongst others forbidden by him thou
51:23shalt not kill thou shalt not go after strange gods and thou shalt not commit schism let us see
51:28concerning these three what should be punished and what it may be lawful to pardon." Murder of Keith
51:34is the chief sin nevertheless God did not strike Cain dead in his guilt but declared that he would
51:40punish any man who might be his murderer in the city of Nineveh 120,000 inhabitants sacriiggiously
51:48followed after strange gods but when by the preaching of Jonah the prophet God had declared
51:54his anger a short period of fasting together with prayer obtained their pardon let us see whether
52:01any such forgiveness was granted to those who first of all ventured to divide the peoples of
52:06God god had placed over so many thousands of children of Israel from whose net his divine
52:12providence had cast away the yoke of servitude one priest holy Aaron but his ministers coveting and
52:19lawlessly usurping a priesthood to which they had no right and leading astray a part of the people
52:24imitated the sacred rights and placed more than 200 of their followers who were to perish with
52:30them centurers in hand before the people whom they had led astray god to whom schism is displeasing
52:38could not see this and let it pass they had after a certain fashion declared war against God as if
52:45there were a second God who could accept a second sacrifice therefore God was wrathful with a mighty
52:52wrath on account of the schism which had been made and what he had not done in punishment of
52:58the sacrilegious and the fracticide that he did do in punishment of schismatics the army
53:05of ministers stood array and the sacriiggious host that together with its forbidden sacrifices was to
53:11perish in an instant the opportunity for penance was denied them and withdrawn for this was not the
53:18kind of sin that should deserve pardon the earth was commanded to hunger after its food forth with
53:24it opened its jaws for those who had divided the people and with eager mouth swallowed them up that
53:30had despised the commandments of God within the space of one moment the earth opened to devour
53:35them seized her victims was shut once again and so that they might not appear to reap any
53:41benefit from the suddenness of their death it was not allowed these men who were unworthy to live
53:47even to die all of a sudden they were shut in the prison of hell and were buried there before they
53:53died what have you to say to this you who having usurped the name of the church both secretly
53:59foster and without shame defend the schism end quote yet there is an obvious difficulty that
54:05pops up here the Donatus claimed that they were the true church of Christ rather than the Catholic
54:10Church how were they to determine which group was schizmatic and which were not interestingly the
54:16Protestant option that they were both parts of the true church or that there was not properly a true
54:22church with unity of governance was not even on the table the option was so ridiculous as not even
54:28to be discussed between the two groups the method that St octatus follows is the same method that
54:34Catholic theologians follow to this day called the method of the notes the word notes comes from the
54:40Latin word note which has the idea of certain marks or essential attributes that would help
54:46you determine what type of thing some object is thus for example the notes of being a man is to
54:53have rationality and to have animality throughout the history of the church various theologians have
54:58listed different numbers of notes for determining the true church this is proper since there are
55:03many properties which flow from the primary essential notes and can be used to determine
55:08the nature of something further there are other attributes which may not technically be proper to
55:12some nature but is an accident that is likely to be present in the thing or in other cases might be
55:19a negative mark that simply excludes other options thus there are many marks of the church and some
55:25of these marks are possessed in some degree by heretical or schismatic groups but as noted by
55:30St octatus the marks stand or fall together if you lack one mark then you lack the full nature of the
55:37church thus he writes quote these endowments i.e marks are connected one with another and
55:43are distinct but in such a way that it may be understood that one cannot be separated from
55:48another for they are numerically distinct but with one act of the mind we see them joined in
55:54their body as are the fingers of the hand each of which we perceive to be removed by spaces from the
56:00others therefore he who possesses one must possess them all since not one of them can be apart from
56:06its fellows we may add that we possess in that in the strictest sense not one endowment alone but
56:13all end quote thus even while Adonitus possess the profession of the creed and the celebration of the
56:19sacraments which Protestants erroneously conclude is sufficient to be a visible church they still
56:25lack the marks for most of the marks St octatus is simply responding to a list given by the Donatus
56:31and showing how the Catholic Church is the true possessor of that mark yet the first mark is of
56:36particular interest for contemporaries this is the mark of what he calls the cathedral Petri
56:42or in English the chair of Peter he introduces the endowment stating quote you cannot then deny that
56:49you do know that upon Peter first in the city of Rome was bestowed the Episcopal Cathedral on
56:56which sat Peter the head of all the apostles for which reason he was called Cphus that in this one
57:02cathedral unity should be preserved by all lest the other apostles might claim each for himself
57:09separate cathedrals so that he who should set up a second cathedral against the unique cathedral
57:15would already be a schismatic and a sinner well then on the one cathedral which is the first of
57:21the endowments Peter was the first to sit." End quote then he goes on to identify this cathedral
57:28Petri with the then current bishop of Rome serakius writing to Peter succeeded Serakius
57:34who today is our colleague with whom the whole world through the intercourse of letters of peace
57:40agrees with us in one bond of communion now do you show the origin of your cathedral you who wish to
57:46claim the holy church for yourselves end quote yet the Donatus objected that they actually did have a
57:52presence within Rome of a few individuals of their sect but St optus mocked this as ridiculous due to
57:59the sparse presence of the Donatis in Rome which he calls quote a few wanderers from Africa and the
58:05fact that they do not possess the traditional churches in Rome besides this he points to the
58:11fact that they couldn't even muster up a single Roman citizen to be bishop and had to keep
58:16sending Africans and that they couldn't even find a meeting place among all the churches and shrines
58:22in Rome he writes quote but you allege that you two have some sort of party in the city of Rome it
58:30is a branch of your error growing out of a lie not from the root of truth in a word where your bishop
58:36to be asked where he sits in the city will he be able to say on Peter's cathedral i doubt whether
58:42he has even set eyes upon it and schismatic that he is he has not drawn nigh to Peter's
58:48shrine behold in Rome are the shrines of the two apostles will you tell me whether he has been able
58:55to approach them or has offered sacrifice in those places where as is certain are these shrines of
59:02the saints end quote what is interesting here is the revelation that the Donatus immediately
59:08after their schism sent someone to Rome to be an antipope which clearly demonstrates the common
59:14understanding of the necessity of having a bishop in Rome st optatus comments on this fact saying
59:21quote Victor that is the first Donatist antipope would not have been able had he been asked where
59:27he sat to show that anyone had been there before him nor could he have pointed out that
59:33he possessed any cathedral save the cathedra of pestilence for pestilence sent down its victims
59:40destroyed by diseases to the regions of hell which are known to have their gates gates against which
59:46we read that Peter received the saving keys peter that is to say the first of our line to whom it
59:53was said by Christ to thee will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven and these keys the gates of
59:59hell shall not overcome how is it then that you strive to usurp for yourselves the keys of the
1:00:04kingdom of heaven you who with your arguments and audacious sacrilege war against the chair
1:00:09of Peter end quote the Donatus objected to this that even while they might not have the chair of
1:00:16Peter in Rome we see from scripture that St peter denied his Lord and therefore they could withdraw
1:00:22communion from him on the basis of his faults yet St optatus completely refutes this reading of
1:00:28scripture showing that despite his personal faults the apostles stayed in communion with Peter and
1:00:34therefore we too must remain in communion with the Cathedral Petri in Rome despite the faults
1:00:39present in the person of the pope he writes quote we see that this unity was preferred to
1:00:45punishment by Christ himself who chose that all his disciples should be in unity rather
1:00:50than punish a sin against himself for as he did not wish to be denied he declared that whosoever
1:00:57should deny him before men him would he deny before his father and though this has been thus
1:01:04written nevertheless for the sake of unity blessed Peter for whom it would have been enough if after
1:01:10his denial he had obtained pardon only both deserve to be placed over all the apostles and
1:01:16alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven which he was to communicate to the rest so from
1:01:23this example it is given us to understand that for the sake of unity sin should be buried since the
1:01:29most blessed apostle Paul says that charity cover a multitude of sins end quote in fact this passage
1:01:37is so strong that many anti-atholics have sought to bastardize this both Gallicans and Anglicans
1:01:44as it says in the text quote "Blessed Peter both deserve to be placed over all the apostles and
1:01:50alone received the kingdom of heaven which he was to communicate to the rest." End quote evie Pusy
1:01:56and Edward Denny both Anglo Catholics following Basuet a Gallicanin all bastardized this text both
1:02:03adding Acristo or from Christ after the statement communicate to the rest so as to change the sense
1:02:09of the passage from Peter giving the keys to the other apostles to Christ giving the keys to the
1:02:14other apostles but after Peter evie Pusy attempts to quote the original version by Dupin mentioned
1:02:21above to show that there is a textual variant but no such note is found it is clear from this text
1:02:28as well as earlier in book 1 chapter 10 that St optatus means to say that Peter received the keys
1:02:34directly from Christ and the other apostles directly from Peter in the earlier passage
1:02:39he mentioned quote the keys which Peter alone received end quote further a second bastardization
1:02:45of this text would need to occur as well that is whereas St octatus says that Peter alone
1:02:51Solus received the keys from Christ the Anglican interpreters would need to interpret it as Peter
1:02:57first primus received from Christ this objective standard of schism is the one which is followed
1:03:03by Catholic authors to this day and provides us with a standard for determining where schismatics
1:03:09are to be found versus where those truly in communion with the church of Christ are to be
1:03:14found that a man can say such things as infallible statements this is not orthodox this is heterodox
1:03:30and that's the problem with the Catholic Church is it's really just a big humanist institution
1:03:35there was no western attendance it was presided over someone who was in schism with Rome who
1:03:40died out of communion with Rome and you know the Roman Catholic Church uses no salvation outside
1:03:43the church so how exactly does that work they were waiting for the pope's magic signature even though
1:03:49there was no western attendance you can also look at Trulo there's many examples of oh they weren't
1:03:54just waiting for the pope's signature to magically make it an ecumenical council you can also look a
1:03:59third ecumenical council where there is no western attendance they weren't like oh guys we need the
1:04:04bishop of Rome to sign if we need the bishop of Rome first off the first council of Constantinople
1:04:09was not the third ecumenical council was the second it's right there in the screenshot
1:04:15second the Wikipedia article says directly that the first council of Constantinople
1:04:20was not seen as an ecumenical council until Calcidon if one wants to see how devastating
1:04:27this is to Kyle's claims here's a fantastic video between two Catholics and an oriental
1:04:33orthodox who agree that Calcedon was a clear example of the Pope exercising papal supremacy
1:04:40finally Theodor who preserved a senotical letter from the council records that the council fathers
1:04:45in 381 did want to have the council in row but due to justified reasons they had to keep the council
1:04:52in Constantinople this at least shows they had some ascent from the Pope has its states though
1:04:59as we have already said we needs must labor all the longer since however you showed your
1:05:07brotherly love to us by inviting us as though we were your own members by the letters of our most
1:05:15religious emperor to the cinnid which you are gathering by divine permission at Rome however
1:05:21Carl isn't getting off this easy it's super clear that the events around thin noble and
1:05:26the Malaysian schism actually prove papal [Music] supremacy pope St thanosis the 37th pope in the
1:05:38line of St peter was elected as pope by a large majority in the month of October in 366 while
1:05:46Pope St dannysus was mostly known as the pope who presided over the council of Rome and the
1:05:52promulgation of the Bulgate he was actually quite instrumental in the weed up to Constantinople 1
1:05:57between 376 and 377 St jerome wrote a letter to pope themesis on a request for the pope to
1:06:06pronounce some sort of decree or creed that would be universally binding on the church
1:06:11he states "If you think fit enact a decree and then I shall not hesitate to speak of
1:06:17three hypoases order a new creed to supersede the nyine and then whether we are Aryans or
1:06:23orthodox one confession will do for us all." The background to this request is interesting because
1:06:29it shows that contrary to Kyle's claims that I mean we can see again the bishop of Alexandria
1:06:34has jurisdiction all these like the bishop of Rome the let the choice of the majority prevail
1:06:39they're not just appealing and the bishop of Rome is not a dictator of the faith like it is in the
1:06:44Roman Catholic system there absolutely is a case of universal jurisdiction let's give some context
1:06:50to this quote in 330 St eustaceius of Antioch a great friend of St ages and a defender of
1:06:57Nyian creed was deposed and exiled by a Ucibius of Mikamedia and Ninod and Antioch on a false charge
1:07:05of modalism or the doctrine that the three persons are actually just one person from that point
1:07:11onward Antioch was placed under the jurisdiction of multiple Aryan and semi-aran bishops in 358
1:07:19a guy by the name of Midius was elected to be pope of Antioch as the church historian Socrates
1:07:26puts it they sent for Mletius and invested him with the bishop Rick of the church at Antioch
1:07:33now he at first avoided all doctrinal questions confining his discourses to moral subjects but
1:07:40subsequently he expounded to his auditors the nyine creed and asserted the doctrine of the
1:07:47homosian the emperor being informed of this ordered that he should be sent into exile
1:07:57now when Midius's exile was elected there was a man by the name of Palinus who has consecrated a
1:08:03bishop before his return and a sort of debate in between the different Nyian Christians
1:08:08erupted in this letter we read that Jerome believed the Malaysians to be Aryans for
1:08:14their usage of hypothesis as equating person at this time many Mistian Christians equated
1:08:20the term hypothesis with essence so the notion that there are three persons and
1:08:26three hypotheases sound like Aryanism as Jerome states just now I am sorry to say those aryens
1:08:33the campenses are trying to extort from me a Roman Christian their unheard of formula
1:08:39of three hypotheses i ask them what three hypotheses are supposed to mean they reply
1:08:45three persons subsisting i rejoin that this is my belief they are not satisfied with the meaning
1:08:52they demand the term in the whole range of secular learning hypothesis never means anything but
1:09:00essence it is also interesting to note that in this letter Jerome appeals to the pope's
1:09:05ineffectability as the basis by which the Micians would have to accept this correction evil children
1:09:11have squandered their patrimony you alone keep your heritage intact the fruitful soil of Rome
1:09:19when it receives the pure seed of the Lord bears fruit and hundfold but here the seed grain is
1:09:27choked in the furrows and nothing grows but darn or oats and it gets better the following quote is
1:09:34a clear affirmation of the divine institution of the papacy and the necessity to be in communion
1:09:40with Rome as I follow no leader save Christ so I communicate with none but your blessedness that
1:09:46is with the chair of Peter for this I know is the rock on which the church is built matthew
1:09:5316:18 this is the house where alone the pascal lamb can be rightly eaten exodus
1:10:0112:22 this is the ark of Noah and he who was not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails
1:10:10despite Jerome's cle Pope Dammesus rejects this request from Ambrose and does not produce a new
1:10:17creed which forbids the usage of the formula of three hypotheses jerome double texting Pope
1:10:24Damasus attempts again to make a decision on this controversy and states "I meantime keep crying he
1:10:32who clings to the chair of Peter is accepted by me." Melius Vitalis and Paulinus all professed to
1:10:40cleave to you and I could believe the assertion if it were made by one of them only only by looking
1:10:48at the first portion of the Malaysian schism we have already established the notion that
1:10:53the pope has the ability to one promula creed that surpasses my two can enforce its usage in Antioch
1:11:03three that the pope can do so on the basis of the indectability of the sea of Rome and four
1:11:09it can set the visible bounds of the church one name I mentioned but did not explain was
1:11:16by Talis of Antioch who is consecrated by Apollina of Leodysier apollerys believed that Christ had no
1:11:24human soul and thus had no complete human nature both the Malicians and the Polynous supporters
1:11:32immediately deemed him as a heretic as Father Clement Rob states a Roman cinnid held in the
1:11:38year 369 under Pope St damascus 366 384 declared that the father and the son ark of the one divine
1:11:46substance together with the Holy Ghost in another Roman cinnid held in 374 the pope rejected the
1:11:54teachings of Macedonius as heretical and here Nedonianism is referenced by St gerrian Nissa
1:12:00in his on the holy trinity which was originally said to us as but they reveal more clearly the
1:12:08aim of their argument as regards the father they admit the fact that he is God and that the son
1:12:16likewise is honored with the attribute of godhead but the spirit who is reckoned with the father and
1:12:23the son they cannot include in their conception of godhead in the year 379 kodosius I became the
1:12:31eastern Roman emperor this changed everything in 380 Theodosius contracted a deadly illness and
1:12:39began to take his fake a bit more seriously so he promugated the edict of Thessaloniker which stated
1:12:46that religion which a pious belief from Peter to the present declares the holy Peter delivered to
1:12:52the Romans and which it is evident the pontiff Damascus and Peter Bishop of Alexandria a man of
1:13:00apostolic sanctity follow that is that according to the apostolic discipline and evangelical
1:13:07doctrine we believe in the deity of the father and the son and the holy ghost of equal majesty in a
1:13:14holy trinity those who follow this law we command shall be comprised under the name of Catholic
1:13:22Christians now it is interesting that the edict directly cites the pope of Rome as a successor
1:13:27of St peter and specifically one who has delivered the faith in fact Franto Monren states "The edict
1:13:35of Thessalonica that was addressed to the people of Constantinople recognized officially for the
1:13:42first time and in the East the exemplary value of Roman communion and Roman primacy justified
1:13:50by apostolic tradition already recognized by the council of Antioch of 379 which subscribed to the
1:13:57tome of Damasus it indeed defined orthodoxy as communion with demisus now certain eastern
1:14:05orthodox apologists such as cried trullia make the claim that the malicians schism disproves
1:14:10the claim made above for the following reason ironically St mletius according to a letter from
1:14:15St jerome never broke communion with the pope yet that same pope recognized Paulinus and not
1:14:22Mletius it is clear via succession who broke the peace and was the schismatic Palinus his
1:14:30ilk and the popes of the late 4th century ironically being that St mlesius's line of
1:14:36succession eventually won out he was vindicated by history and this is a crystal clear example
1:14:43that Rome can indisputably go into shism and no magical mega chair powers can prevent it
1:14:49basically the argument being made is that since Pope Damsus supported Paulus who is effectively
1:14:56unconically misstated the fact that the Pope favored Paulus over Malius who is eventually
1:15:02reinstated as the bishop of Antioch in a council which was not overseen by the Pope is proof that
1:15:08the principle of unity with Rome is false but there's a missing piece of evidence that puts a
1:15:13lot of context to the situation in 379 AD there was a council held by 150 bishops which signed
1:15:20onto a statement of faith recognized by Rome which defended the Nyian fates in 377 it was reported as
1:15:28stating that this is the end of this letter or exposition of the faith of the sin held at Rome
1:15:34under Pope Damasus and sent into the east in which the entire Eastern church in a sin held at Antioch
1:15:42believed with a like faith and all so consenting confirmed this faith with their signatures i
1:15:50Malichius Bishop of Antioch consent to everything written above so believing and teaching and if
1:15:59anyone believes otherwise let him be Anathema so Malius actually did sign off to a Roman
1:16:05council under Pain of Ana proving his Orthodoxy he was never actually out of communion with Rome
1:16:12if you remember before it was only a year after that emperor Theodosius made it clear that anyone
1:16:19who held Benian faith was in communion with Rome so the signature of Malevia shows that with the
1:16:24absence of any explicit condemnation Mius for all intents and purposes was in full communion with
1:16:31[Music] Rome since the pope refused to make any clear statement on this matter the quarrel between
1:16:46Polinus and Midius continued "The supporters of both parties agreed to recognize either Malletus
1:16:53or Paulinus as the true bishop of Antioch given the death of one or the other." As Socrates writes
1:16:59"When this was done a great disturbance arose but afterwards the people were brought to unite
1:17:05on the following stipulations having assembled such of the clergy as might be considered worthy
1:17:10candidates for the bishopriick they found them six in number of whom Flavian was one all these
1:17:17they bound by an oath not to use any effort to get themselves ordained when either of the two bishops
1:17:24should die in a recent debate on the papacy hosted by Reason and Theology Live an Eastern
1:17:29Orthodox debater sums up what from their side they saw is going down during the aftermath of
1:17:37this decision made between Colonists and Malius's supporters what I would contrast that with is the
1:17:44Malaysian schism um where Rome was on the wrong side and it wasn't until um in fact they were
1:17:49the only ones that weren't in communion with the church uh after Constantinople won in 381 um the
1:17:56bishop that they had appointed Pollenius was not recognized as the true bishop the true patriarch
1:18:02of Antioch u instead it was uh St flavian who was recognized as the true bishop of Antioch
1:18:08um and so the council decides then Alexandria submits to the council's decision rome attempts to
1:18:17uh override this and I can actually if you'll let me I can read their response
1:18:22um uh back to it this is in the uh the synotical letter of Constantinople 1 this is their response
1:18:27to to Rome trying to assert this authority it says although with one voice of consent and respect the
1:18:33bishops of the province and of the eastern dascese have met together and canonically ordained this
1:18:37reverend and most religious Flavian as bishop over the most ancient and truly apostolic church
1:18:42in Syria where the first noble name Christian was given this rightful ordination was received
1:18:48the sanction of the general council so again the bishop of Rome tries to appoint his own bishop in
1:18:55Antioch who's Pollenius the council says "No it's Flavian." And this was their response when Rome
1:19:00tries to assert that authority it wasn't until several years later that Rome finally submits to
1:19:05the rest of the church they were out of communion with the true patriarch of Antioch but Antioch was
1:19:10still in communion with the true church so this idea that you have to be in communion with Rome
1:19:14to be in communion with the true church is is not found in history it contradicts history as we have
1:19:19demonstrated above this recollection of history is quite inaccurate first Malidius and Colonus were
1:19:25both seen as in communion with Rome second Politis was not formally installed by the Pope rather the
1:19:33Pope simply preferred his nomination without ever responding to the requests to close the case in
1:19:38Antioch third the Alexandrians had no love for Flavian originally due to Mius's rescension of the
1:19:46original deal with Polidus but both the patriarch of Alexandria and Pope Themesis reconciled with
1:19:53Flavvenian at the same time nevertheless those who disliked Flavian on account of his having
1:19:58violated his oath held their assemblies apart meanwhile Flavian left no stone unturned as the
1:20:07phrase is to bring these also under his control and this he soon after affected when he appeased
1:20:14the anger of Theophilus then bishop of Alexandria by whose mediation he consiliated Damasus Bishop
1:20:21of Rome also for both these had been greatly displeased with Flavian as well for the perjury
1:20:29of which he had been guilty as for the schism he had occasioned among the previously united people
1:20:34fourth the fact that the insulation was even seen as problematic and Evidarius was being propped
1:20:39up by certain parties due to the breaking of the oak showed that the council did nothing to solve
1:20:44the issue at hand in fact in sources nearly four decades later Rome was seen as solving
1:20:49the issue under Pope St circus finally choosing Flavvenian as the rightful bishop of Antioch as
1:20:55Pope bought this rights when the church of Antioch had been in trouble a long time so that there was
1:21:01continual passing to and fro for this first under Malletus afterwards under Flavian it is notorious
1:21:08that the apostolic sea was consulted by whose authority after many things done by our church
1:21:15everyone knows that Flavian received the grace of communion which he would have forfeited forever
1:21:21had not writings gone from hence respecting it so today we've learned a couple of things about
1:21:26the Malaysian schism the old adage Roma luta ka panas is quite useful when looking into history
1:21:34contrary to eastern orthodox claims but first sea is often times the arbiters of these decisions and
1:21:40two people stretch the evidence a lot of the case of the militian schism as being an issue
1:21:45for Roman Catholics is really built out of the inferences from silence and three the Medians
1:21:50gives them cannot be used as a defeater for papal supremacist comments in fact if anything it proves
1:21:55our case i want to close this video with a neat concession I found by Truglia on this topic our
1:22:02modern debate is always east versus west Orthodox versus Roman Catholic i don't think we're actually
1:22:07seeing the bigger point now I think if I were in your your seat right now you can say well this
1:22:13is consistent with the Vatican one view of the papacy and you can certainly make that argument
1:22:18i'm just making the historical point that this was the relevant point at issue had to do with unity
1:22:25coming from singular whether the the pope can be a heretic and whether he can be judged a heretic
1:22:32but really you know how does that work and that's where the Dominican and Jesuit opinions as Robert
1:22:38Cisco and I called it in in our book come come into play because remember uh this is a delicate
1:22:44question because we also know that the pope has no judge But Christ uh he doesn't have any earthly
1:22:50authority that can coercively judge him on earth and so the struggle with all these opinions but
1:22:58most especially uh the fourth and the fifth deal with that very question the third opinion simply
1:23:05kind of throws in the towel that says "Hey since the pope can't be judged even if he is a heretic
1:23:09we got to wait for him to die because there's nothing we can do about it." Well that fails to
1:23:14recognize the distinction which Bellereman and Kadetin and Jonath St thomas and Suarez in Lori
1:23:22and Bo and all the great minds that have addressed this make which is uh the church because of the
1:23:31power of the keys and this is I don't know if this is something I've I've mentioned before or not
1:23:35but the the power of the keys give the church the right uh to make judgments um you know concerning
1:23:43uh knowledge and and power or authority or jurisdiction the clavis uh shenseier which is the
1:23:50keys of knowledge versus the the clavis potencier which is the keys of of power or jurisdiction the
1:23:57the the the keys of of knowledge allow the church without judging the pope to make a
1:24:06judgment as to whether uh the material and formal uh elements of the canonical crime of heresy exist
1:24:15and Bellererman is crystal clear about this he calls it a discretionary judgment and even s John
1:24:22uh John St thomas even St thomas himself refers to these two um elements of the keys of knowledge and
1:24:30power in terms of the key of knowledge the church because the church has a right to provide for her
1:24:37head uh and because scripture reveals that the church is supposed to uh avoid a heretic that
1:24:47means the church would necessarily have the right under divine law to determine whether the pope is
1:24:54a heretic she does that without coercively judging the pope by exercising the power of
1:25:00the keys which the college of bishops share in this case in in determining whether the pope is
1:25:08guilty of the canonical crime of heresy again I want to emphasize this this is not consiliarism
1:25:13this is not elevating the bishops over the pope it's not the pope being judged directly
1:25:18but as John St thomas says the pope is actually being judged indirectly because the church has
1:25:24a right to determine in a judgment whether the matter and form of heresy exist it's a factual
1:25:31judgment okay are the canonical crime elements of the crime of heresy present the church has every
1:25:37right to do that you know Bellereman says one of the um reasons why the college of bishops could
1:25:44convoke a council even against the pope's will is to provide for the head to determine whether the
1:25:50pope is a heretic this is uh a divine right that Christ has given to the college of of bishops and
1:25:56this is very consistent among all the commentators and so you distinguish that discretionary judgment
1:26:05and by the way you know the state of Aantis are are keen to quote de Romano Potifiche
1:26:11uh on the Roman pontiff but I don't know if they've read his other works on the councils
1:26:16and on the church militant and on the marks of the church because Bellererman actually gets into more
1:26:20detail about uh when you can uh determine that a pope is a manifest heretic and it's through
1:26:28the discretionary judgment which Bellereman says then leads to a conviction of heresy
1:26:35bellererman specifically says and we have an article Cisco and I on our our website on this
1:26:40Bellereman says that the church can invoke an imperfect council if it's against the Pope's
1:26:46will and make a judgment discretionarily that the pope is guilty of heresy that is a conviction now
1:26:52still Christian this is not a coercive judgment this is only the exercise of the church's right
1:26:58to exercise the keys of of knowledge to determine whether this man is a heretic it's non-coercive
1:27:04they're not uh judging the pope but because the church has a right to provide for the head once
1:27:09it makes this determination um both Bellereman and the Jesuits and uh the Dominicans recognize that
1:27:18Christ is the one who severs the bond okay now under the Jesuit opinion we're not I know we're
1:27:25not quite there yet but in the Jesuit opinion uh this would happen when the discretionary judgment
1:27:31is made and the pope is convicted of heresy then in the in the Jesuit opinion Christ would sever
1:27:38the bond and then the church because he's no longer the pope can make a coercive judgment
1:27:46over him you see by excommunicating and dep and and deposing him uh overseeing his deposition and
1:27:52and removal so um that's kind of a long- winded answer but I wanted to tee that up because it's
1:27:58important as we discuss the fourth and the fifth opinion to recognize this distinction between a
1:28:05discretionary judgment which is a judgment of the facts which is non-coercive and then uh and
1:28:11and results in a conviction and the coercive judgment which then oversees the punishment
1:28:17and deposition of the former pope so uh that if if I'm getting this correct okay so we have the
1:28:27the pope i I'll use a random pope from history i don't want to use Pope Francis and I know that'll
1:28:32get clipped or something i don't know uh Pope Pas I 7th uh let's say so I don't know i I've never
1:28:39read anything about Pope Pius the 7th so nothing personal against him uh Pope Pius the 7th he's
1:28:44he's you know he's an occult heretic and he starts you know preaching different heretical things yeah
1:28:52and then at at this point in order to go from a cult and publicly expressing that to notorious
1:29:04by law you would need somehow the intervention of the church and the um and this process is through
1:29:14a sort of investigative process this would be like analogous to the way in which um various
1:29:20investigators of a crime function and then bring it to prosecution versus like the actual you know
1:29:27um judgment of guilt in court like is that is that kind of a a good distinction to make between the
1:29:33two yeah al although in the civil context we have to remember that you know the courts do have a
1:29:39course of authority over the defendant although it's right to say that it's it's similar in that
1:29:46the jury doesn't right the jury is nothing more than a finder of fact and doesn't have a course
1:29:51of authority but after they render the judgment the judge then renders the sentence so there is
1:29:56a similarity there is a similarity there but just stepping back a bit again I want to emphasize that
1:30:03the church has these are opinions we're talking about and I think the fourth and the fifth opinion
1:30:08are the are one of them is correct and I and I tend to think the Dominicans got it right as usual
1:30:15but um the process is actually rooted even though this hasn't been dogmatized the process is rooted
1:30:22in scripture in divine law and revelation titus 3:10 St paul's letter to Titus where
1:30:28uh he says after you know two admonitions uh warn uh warnings you know avoid the heretic and so the
1:30:38opinions which hold that the church has a right to judge whether the pope is a heretic and and and
1:30:47then oversee his removal from office both those opinions even though they differ in actually how
1:30:54the process is is completed they all agree that the process has to start with ecclesiastical
1:31:02warnings because that's the only way to establish the matter in the form which are the elements of
1:31:07the canonical crime of heresy and so as you know Cardinal Burke called it a formal correction well
1:31:14I think he was referring to uh a a a warning in the context of the holy father these would be
1:31:23warnings that are issued in fraternal correction again they would not be jeritically coercive over
1:31:29the pope as and St thomas Aquinas talks about this as as being warnings of fraternal correction
1:31:36because inferiors have a right to and even a duty to warn their superiors when their salvation is at
1:31:43stake so the church would issue ecclesiastical warnings which would constitute warnings of
1:31:49fraternal correction hopefully to get the pope to repent if if uh if the pope would refuse then the
1:31:55church has a right and Bellereman and and John St thomas are very clear about this they would have
1:32:00a right uh to invoke what they call an imperfect council john St thomas goes into a lot of detail
1:32:06about this imperfect it could be perfect if the pope calls the council and agrees to it it's
1:32:11imperfect if it's you know called against his will but the but the church has a right to do that uh
1:32:17after the warnings were not heeded then the church has the right to issue this discretionary judgment
1:32:23whereby it would in Bellereman's words not my words in Bellereman's words it would convict
1:32:29the pope of heresy and then the question becomes what happens next but my point Christian there is
1:32:37in these two predominant opinions they all agree that there is a process of warnings ecclesiastic
1:32:42warnings from proper authority that would lead to either the pope's repentance um or conviction and
1:32:51we have an example of this with Pope Marcelinus uh in uh around 30 304 AD where Marcelinus and
1:33:00and the circumstances are often debated but the bottom line is he engaged in an act of false
1:33:05public worship he offered incense to pagan deity Jupiter okay um putting the circumstances aside
1:33:14um he was called a heretic for that and the uh the bishops got together uh and summoned him to
1:33:22confront him about you know this external act of heresy and when you read this this is a long time
1:33:28ago this goes all the way back you know you know into the 300s but uh even back then the church
1:33:35knew that they didn't have any jeritical or course of force over the pope so they told Marcelinus "We
1:33:41do not judge you judge yourself judge yourself." And Marcelinus did judge himself and did resign
1:33:49in shame but guess what happened he repented he was reelected to the throne of Peter and died
1:33:55a martyr St marcelina so this is a beautiful example of where the process of ecclesiastical
1:34:02warnings and this imperfect council uh resulted in uh his his repentance um but that's the that's
1:34:10the process that all the theologians agree to you know warnings based on revelation to establish the
1:34:16actual fact uh that the uh the pope is a heretic okay so at once we get to the fact level so Pas
1:34:25the 7th let's say he's preaching something crazy about some dogma and then there's the so at at
1:34:34this point right when we get to the preaching to the ecclesiastical factf finding mission is there
1:34:39any dispute that's going to go on with who who finds the facts is it the cardinals ecumenical
1:34:46council a local council who are the factf finders because I can I can imagine that this um this
1:34:53question of uh whether this or that council or this or that body of uh individuals are allowed
1:34:59to have the authority i can I can assume that this is going to be something which is contentious yeah
1:35:06that's a great that's a great question i mean it would some theologians have held that it would be
1:35:12the elector cardinals but I think uh the more uh likely and predominant opinion is it would have
1:35:20to be an imperfect council because an imperfect council will actually represent the universal
1:35:24church okay and and so that would be um that would be the distinction that I would make uh there and
1:35:32I would say that because um both Bellererman and um and Jonath St thomas you know said it
1:35:39and they were kind of the you know the the two predominant theologians of their respective you
1:35:44know groups you know that address the question so uh again it's an opinion but the opinion would be
1:35:51would have to be a representation of the universal church because the pope is the universal shepherd
1:35:57you know and teacher of the the entire church and so uh an imperfect council again an opinion but an
1:36:02imperfect council u meaning the pope wouldn't be heading that council would be required
1:36:08yeah I can imagine that this would uh um because I'm aware of Suarez's opinion that a even a local
1:36:16council could do this but I can imagine the the difficulty that this would pose because uh we we
1:36:22could think about you know a group of 20 bishops and five cardinals could they come out and then
1:36:28anmatize the pope and you know how how do we go here it would seem like it would need to be some
1:36:33sort of council like Vatican 2 that has basically every bishop in the world there um participating
1:36:39in this council a vast vast moral majority of the bishops um supporting this and all the cardinals
1:36:46and everything like that i I could imagine that it would have to be something like that even for it
1:36:50to be feasible i agree and that and that's why I think you know Bellereman held held that position
1:36:57along with uh Janna St thomas a representation of of the universal church mhm so we have at this
1:37:04point uh we have the ecclesiastical find factf finding mission and they they go in and they
1:37:09um judge that um there is this issue so how do we get from that to now pope is no longer pope where
1:37:20where this is this is where unfortunately um our our two great doctors uh St robert Bellereamine
1:37:28and John of St thomas depart from one another is is kind of this these steps although to clarify as
1:37:34we've clarified before the practical steps are basically the same it's kind of a question of
1:37:39uh of a more speculative matter of what happens between those two points correct so we've
1:37:45established that and and Cisco and I kind of came up with this um distinction between Jesuit and
1:37:52Dominican opinion to our knowledge that was wasn't out there we just thought that was kind of a a
1:37:57useful way to do it and actually I want to mention when I wrote an article on sativantism going on
1:38:0410 years as I was studying this for a very long time i actually noticed Christian that while the
1:38:11sativantists were saying that Bellereman disagreed with Suarez on this I didn't see that in the
1:38:17writings and I I had written an article on s of a contantist and I put a footnote in that article
1:38:23saying that they only held seemingly in opposite opinions but they actually agreed with each other
1:38:27even though not only all say just all say of a contantist but other theologians like wors and bal
1:38:33and even uh uh des Salvera held that they differed in their opinion they didn't understand Suarez's
1:38:40opinion and in in Bellereman's opinion at least on the question of the heretical pope and when he
1:38:45loses his office they were in complete agreement uh they held that uh after the warnings and after
1:38:52the conviction um at that point Christ would then depose the pope and Suarez is clear that after the
1:39:04conviction there has to be a declaration to the church and the state of Aantis have said well
1:39:13Bellereman never required a declaration Suarez did so Bellereman disagrees with Suarez president
1:39:18were going to side with with Bellereman that's not the case uh Jorre even says and actually Jonath St
1:39:25thomas even says that both Bellereman and Suarez held that after the conviction the church would
1:39:32have to declare that the pope is encouraable okay so Bellereman did hold that there has to
1:39:38be a declaration after all how would the church know about it if it wasn't declared and when
1:39:44Bellererman says that the pope loses his office ipsso facto without a you know judicial sentence
1:39:50here's where we get into the misunderstanding that the state of econ bellererman wasn't saying he
1:39:54loses his office without an antecedent judgment of the church all of this is based upon the
1:40:01uh process of canonical warnings and a canonical conviction okay which is an antecedent judgment
1:40:08of the church that then results in Christ deposing the pope at that point Bellereman and Suarez and
1:40:15the Jesuits held that that's all that needed to happen once the conviction and declaration were
1:40:22rendered uh Christ then as the efficient cause would come in and sever the bond at that point
1:40:31the Dominicans were much more careful uh and much more nuanced and I I love how Cardinal
1:40:38Joure says "The Dominicans um were more uh their their opinion is more penetrating they were very
1:40:45careful about dealing with this delicate question of of not wanting to to judge the pope." And so
1:40:53the Dominicans agree with the Jesuits cadetin and Jon St thomas agree with Bellereman and Suarez
1:41:01uh regarding the process of ecclesiastical warnings because after all that's part of
1:41:06divine revelation avoid the heretic after the warnings and the the absolute requirement of
1:41:12the church to convict uh or to establish the fact of the crime and conviction of heresy
1:41:21but whereas the uh the Jesuits said at that point Christ comes and severs and he therefore by the
1:41:28fact if facto by the fact of what by the fact of the church's anticcedent judgment which is a
1:41:34condition for the losses office by the fact of the conviction he loses his office without a further
1:41:43uh judicial sentence or jeritical act bellereman was arguing against Kagetin who actually required
1:41:51an additional jeritical act um by the church and what Kagetin and and John St thomas in in great
1:41:59clarity and lucidity said is because we want to be careful here about the church actually judging
1:42:04the pope we are not going to hold the the the Jesuit opinion which says that the church judges
1:42:13uh um or separates from from the pope let me put it that way we hold the position that the pope is
1:42:20actually separating on his own from the church and they held Christian because after the conviction
1:42:26they didn't believe Christ automatically severed the bond at that point they believe that there
1:42:31was an extra step a ministerial yet jeritical step whereby the church now has to communicate
1:42:38to the faithful that this man is a heretic and he must be avoided and they base it on revelation i
1:42:45mean it's beautiful how the Dominicans have tied their opinion specifically to the plain meaning of
1:42:50the revealed scriptures how does the church avoid uh the heretic pope if it's not commanded to do
1:42:59so right so the church has to have an ability to understand if he's a heretic and that he must be
1:43:04avoided so in the Dominican opinion there's this extra step where the church issues a what's called
1:43:10a vitandus declaration it's a jeritical act not over the pope but it's a jeritical act over the
1:43:17faithful telling the faithful you must avoid the pope as a heretic and you know the way John St
1:43:24thomas you know explains it and you beautiful uh Dominican theology he says here's where the church
1:43:29acts upon uh uh directly upon the matter uh but not the form the matter is the man and the form is
1:43:36the pontificate uh what what John St thomas says is by declaring to the church that this man must
1:43:44be avoided we're not coercively judging this man we're telling you to avoid the pope the the the
1:43:50fallen pope it's by that declaration of avoiding him that renders the man impotent to govern the
1:43:58church so the the declaration renders him impotent or unable to carry the form of the pontificate and
1:44:06that's under the Dominican opinion where Christ then severs the bond and the Dominican theologians
1:44:12often use you know procreation and death as an example where you know the generative act of of
1:44:18procreation that doesn't create the form right of man it doesn't create the soul and neither
1:44:24does death directly touch the form or the soul the matter is is simply incapable of sustaining
1:44:30the form and so the vitandus declaration of the Dominican opinion renders the matter incapable of
1:44:37sustaining the form it renders the pope incapable of of um governing as pope of the pont pontificate
1:44:45and so you see that subtle but most beautiful distinction there where the church's conviction
1:44:51is only the dispositive cause of the pope's falling just like the cardinal electors and
1:44:59the pope's consent of accepting the pontificate is the dispositive cause of his election it's Christ
1:45:04who joins the matter in the form and it's Christ who severs the matter in the form so sorry for
1:45:09the long- winded discussion but it's important to note that there are subtle distinctions here but
1:45:16none of this helps santis because all of this is done under the authority of the Catholic Church
1:45:24often you'll hear Protestants set of a contests and other enemies of the church quote a certain
1:45:34passage from St paul's epistle to the Galatians and this passage in St paul's epistle they will
1:45:41use as a foundation for their approach to reading the documents of the current magisterium they'll
1:45:48read them and they'll judge whether this is in accordance with previous teaching and if they
1:45:55judge this is in accordance with previous teaching then they'll accept it but if they judge that this
1:46:01is contrary to previous teaching then they will reject it and they think that this supposed right
1:46:07is based on what St paul says in Galatians 1:es 8 and 9 there St paul renders anathema the teaching
1:46:16of even apostles or angels if they contradict the previous teaching therefore these authors
1:46:23will reason that it is perfectly within their right to look at the contemporary teaching and
1:46:30see that the modern Catholic Church has departed from the teaching of the previous Catholic Church
1:46:36or if you're a Protestant they'll say that the church of Trent the trident church the church of
1:46:43the post-reformation the medieval church has departed from the early church and they will
1:46:49feel free to give all of these anathemas of the teaching of the magisterium because according to
1:46:56this teaching from St paul it's even possible for apostles to depart from the teaching of
1:47:03Christ from the original divine revelation then obviously it's also possible for the magisterium
1:47:10so therefore we should be able to depart as much as we can as much as we wish as much as we're able
1:47:16to discern that they are out of line with the previous teaching but is this exactly what the
1:47:22passage means does this passage provide any sort of justification for considering the possibility
1:47:29of the contemporary magisterium of departing from the previous magisterium is this present
1:47:35in the text or is this not present in the text obviously since I'm doing this video and since
1:47:42I'm stating in this way and since I'm defending the magisterium of the church obviously I don't
1:47:47think this is possible but it is easy to see how this is possible when we look at the context of
1:47:54the text when we look at what is meant to be accomplished by the text and finally when we
1:48:00look at the historic interpretation of this text both from the fathers and the medievals and also
1:48:08even the post-reformation theologians but first let's read this text it states quote "But even
1:48:15if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached
1:48:21you let him be accursed." As we have said before so now I say again if anyone is preaching to you
1:48:27a gospel contrary to the one you received let him be accursed." End quote in order to read this text
1:48:33properly we need to know what was the occasion for the text why did St paul even write this epistle
1:48:39to the Galatians in the first place well we see that the reason for him writing the epistle which
1:48:44we can see both in this epistle in the acts of the apostles and then also from the other epistles was
1:48:52to oppose a certain heretical group and this heretical group was known as the Judaizers
1:48:59the Judaizers basically thought that in order to receive the grace of Christ in order to be
1:49:05justified to pass from a state of sin to a state of righteousness or a state of justice that you
1:49:12needed to somehow practice the old law and this practice the old law primarily took the form of
1:49:18circumcision circumcision was what grafted people into the old covenant so therefore in order to
1:49:26become a member of the new covenant according to these individuals you would need to first become
1:49:31a member of the old covenant gentiles couldn't just become Christians gentiles for them had to
1:49:37first become Jews when it comes to this epistle in particular we see some of the most heated rhetoric
1:49:44from the other Paul and for good reason i mean he goes so far as to tell the Judaizers to castrate
1:49:51themselves if they think that we need the old law in order to be justified in fact in this epistle
1:49:58he goes so far as not only to say that the old law does not currently justify but that the old
1:50:04law never justified rather he argues that justice righteousness is not found in the works of the law
1:50:12whether they be ceremonial works or moral works rather we can't change ourselves we can't bring
1:50:19ourselves into a state of justice rather what's needed is the grace of Christ to transform us
1:50:26to work within us both to will and to work and to infuse within us by grace in virtue of the merits
1:50:32of Christ faith which works by love and this is true justice not the works of the law st thomas
1:50:40in his commentary on Galatians explains this well he says quote "Works are not the cause making one
1:50:46to be just before God rather they are the carrying out and manifestation of justice for no one is
1:50:52made just before God by works but by the habit of faith not acquired but infused and therefore as
1:50:58many as seek to be justified by works or under a curse because sin is not removed nor anyone
1:51:04justified in the sight of God by them but by the habit of faith vivified by charity." End quote
1:51:11and this is substantially simply the teaching of the council of Trent which can be read in session
1:51:18six and also what is helpful is the explanations given by the trident father Domingo deto who is
1:51:25explicitly explaining the teachings of Trent in responding to the teachings of the Protestants
1:51:30anyways chapters 1 through 4 of this epistle are meant to refute these teachers st paul brings
1:51:37forth many arguments both from authority and from reason in order to refute the Judaizers now he
1:51:45splits this into two sections in chapters 3-4 he refutes on the basis of the old law especially on
1:51:52the basis of the example of Abraham to prove that it was never works that justified it was always
1:51:58faith that justified but in the first two chapters he does something interesting and these first two
1:52:03chapters since obviously the quoted hand is from the first chapter are going to provide
1:52:08the immediate context of the interpretation of the passage in the first two chapters he
1:52:15doesn't argue from the Old Testament he argues from the apostolic witness verses 8-9 actually
1:52:22function as the beginning of this section after the greeting that you get in the first five verses
1:52:28so this right here is the introduction that you get to the section where he proves from
1:52:33the apostolic teaching that we are not justified by works of the law but by grace through faith he
1:52:40says quote but even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one
1:52:46we preached to you let him be accursed as we have said before so say so now I say again if anyone
1:52:53is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received let him be accursed end quote now
1:52:59as I said before this is a passage which is the preface to an argument from apostolic authority so
1:53:07obviously to interpret this as somehow questioning authority since he includes the apostles in the
1:53:15anathema if they teach against the gospel then they are to be anathema he's including these
1:53:21apostles before he goes on to prove this teaching by apostolic authority so obviously it is from the
1:53:27beginning quite silly to use this in the way that the Protestants or the set of accountantists use
1:53:32this because if they were to be consistent they would actually have to admit the possibility of
1:53:38the apostles themselves going against the teaching of the apostles or angels themselves going against
1:53:44the teaching of angels really it is quite obvious that this is a hypothetical statement as we'll
1:53:49get to in a second so from the beginning it's obvious that it would completely overturn the
1:53:55entire argument of St paul if we were to interpret it in the way in which the set of accountantis and
1:54:00the Protestants interpret this rather there's a much simpler way of reading this that not only is
1:54:05in accordance with the placement of the passage in the entire epistle and the purpose of prefacing it
1:54:11to a discussion of apostolic authority it also is the reading that was traditionally taken by
1:54:17Catholic exed so it's the traditional position of the church fathers what we have to realize
1:54:22is that these false teachers as is reported by St johnum were quoting the authority of the apostles
1:54:29in order to bolster their claims they were saying that they had heard St james or St john support
1:54:36this teaching they quoted them in support of Judaizing now St paul had two options of
1:54:43how he would respond to this he could either go through and refute them one by one he could get
1:54:49the testimony of St james get the testimony of St john and he could also refute the individual
1:54:55statements and that's how he could write this epistle he could do that which would be obviously
1:55:01impossible due to the limits of the ancient world and communication or on the other hand
1:55:06he could head off the objection and rather than choosing the former he chose the latter he headed
1:55:12off the objection which was given from these figures he said that really you quote as many
1:55:18quotes from the apostles as you want you could appeal to the authority of all of the apostles
1:55:23you could appeal to the authority of me you could have a quote from me disagreeing with myself you
1:55:29could have quotes from angels you could appeal to anybody's authority it doesn't matter because if
1:55:35these authorities notice the if there if these authorities happen to disagree with the gospel
1:55:41once preached let them be anathema i don't care what they say because they're disagreeing with
1:55:47what was once preached now obviously this doesn't somehow imply that it's possible for an angel or
1:55:55that it's possible for an apostle to disagree with the teaching once preached rather it's
1:56:01simply heading off all of these objections and saying "Hey we can all agree that this is what we
1:56:06once preached." So it doesn't matter if they quote this author or that author even if it's real which
1:56:12it isn't real but even if it's real who cares it doesn't really matter because we already have the
1:56:18preaching that we once laid down at the beginning this is the argument that St paul is bringing
1:56:24forward in this passage it's quite a brilliant argument but I wanted to go over three devices
1:56:29in particular that he is using in these two verses first he's using a conditional statement
1:56:36what is a conditional statement a conditional statement is an if then statement for example
1:56:41if I said if pigs fly then they have wings that would be a conditional statement it doesn't mean
1:56:47that it's possible it simply means that if one happens to be true then the other happens to be
1:56:53true both of those could be false and both of those could be impossible rather it's simply
1:56:58looking at the linking between what's called the antecedent and the consequent second the teaching
1:57:04is hypothetical what is hypothetical hypothetical means that you posit some sort of hypothesis that
1:57:11if I were to concede that the condition is true in the conditional if I were to concede that the
1:57:18angels themselves were teaching against the gospel then let them be anathema that's the
1:57:24hypothetical right there if I were to concede that pigs were flying then I would equally concede that
1:57:30they had wings that's what a hypothetical is a hypothetical is never meant to state what is uh
1:57:37absolutely possible it's never meant to state that it's even true rather it's meant to simply posit
1:57:43a hypothesis third you have hyperbole hyperbole is very important hyperbole is really meant to
1:57:51overexaggerate oral effect and actually here it's placed next to what's called an aforori argument
1:57:58an afori argument is basically an argument where you argue from the stronger to the less so if I
1:58:06said for example I am above 6 ft therefore I am above 5 ft that would be an afori argument
1:58:13i'm arguing since I meet the higher condition therefore the lower condition is obviously true
1:58:18and there's something very interesting going on here because he's connecting the hypothetical the
1:58:23conditional and the hyperbolic in order to make a very strong afor argument he's stating that if an
1:58:30angel which obviously angel higher than apostle which is higher than false teacher if an angel
1:58:36says this if even an angel comes down from heaven in fact Cornelius Alaped takes us further and he
1:58:41even says if God himself said this if God himself contradicted the previous teaching then obviously
1:58:48we go with the previous teaching if the angel himself comes down from heaven and contradicts
1:58:54the former teaching we keep with the previous teaching we offer anathema to anything and anybody
1:59:01who wants to go against the previous teaching so this completely neuters all of the arguments that
1:59:08are being brought forward by the Judaizers the Judaizers could bring forth any authority they
1:59:12felt like it wouldn't matter because the apostle Paul in a very intelligent in a very brilliant
1:59:19move has cut off all of them right from the beginning so that's the purpose of this passage
1:59:25but what does this imply about the argument that the Protestants and the set of accountants
1:59:30bring forward what this implies is that it's a very stupid argument because really what their
1:59:35argument is is since there is this conditional hyperbolic hypothetical statement made by St
1:59:42paul therefore as a practice we should expect this obviously this is a completely ridiculous argument
1:59:50to make it's not like St paul was telling the Galatians "Hey u I'm giving you this
1:59:55conditional hyperbolic hypothetical statement and therefore you should routinely expect the apostles
2:00:02to possibly contradict the previous teaching and therefore you should just stop listening to the
2:00:07apostolic authority." This is ridiculous we see throughout the entirety of the New Testament that
2:00:12the apostles are binding authentic authoritative sources of divine revelation that hold the highest
2:00:19place of authority in the New Testament church so obviously this does not at all imply that
2:00:24the ecclesiastical magisterium is defectable and therefore the ecclesiastical magisterium we always
2:00:30need to keep in our minds this possibility that it'll defect from the truth we always
2:00:35need to be prepared to lay anathema against the ecclesiastical magisterium and we can't
2:00:40uh ever trust it it's obviously a ridiculous implication because this is merely a condition
2:00:47this is merely hypothetical this is merely hyperbolic this is obvious to anybody who is
2:00:52reading this in the context of the epistle to the Galatians in accordance with the reading
2:00:57of the holy fathers of the theologians and of our best exites as a bit of a side note this argument
2:01:04from St paul actually could be quite helpful for arguing against certain individuals especially
2:01:10theological liberals who want to overturn the previous teaching of the church the
2:01:15previous teaching of tradition with some sort of appeal to contemporary magisterial statements or
2:01:23contemporary theologians let's use for an example something like homosexuality or female priests or
2:01:29female deacons or whatever it may be let's say they appeal to contemporary trends in theology
2:01:37or contemporary statements from the magisterium in order to say that it's actually lawful to hold
2:01:42these beliefs or it's lawful to do this or that action now you could go into each one of these
2:01:49statements and you could show that they're quoting as bogus uh usually they don't quote any of these
2:01:55contemporary documents fairly you could do that uh but that's a lot of work so what you could also
2:02:00do is you could do what St paul does you could say well actually it doesn't really matter uh what you
2:02:06say this is the traditional teaching of the church and it doesn't matter because if I were to concede
2:02:13let's pretend hypothetically that the contemporary magisterium was stating these things against the
2:02:19historic teaching of the church then it would be condemned by the historic teaching of the church
2:02:24it would be overruled and overran of course if it's a lesser weight teaching by the traditional
2:02:29teaching of the church so it doesn't matter how many of these documents you quote you could quote
2:02:34documents all day it doesn't really matter because if somebody is going to go against the tradition
2:02:40of the church if a contemporary figure is going to try to overturn a higher weight teaching that
2:02:46has been traditionally taught in the church then it doesn't matter let him be anathema it really
2:02:51doesn't matter so this type of argument actually interestingly enough could be a quite effective
2:02:58argument against individuals who are attempting to do the same thing that the Judaizers were doing
2:03:03not only is this reading the most sensible one but this is also the reading held by the
2:03:07fathers the medievals and the exedites first I'm going to go through a few from the fathers then
2:03:12I'm going to go through a few early medieval authors then a few medieval authors and then a
2:03:16few modern authors technically modern just means postreformation so I'm going to go through a few
2:03:21post-reformation authors as well and show how this is just the traditional reading that has
2:03:27always been given to this passage first we have St john Christom he states quote as they betook
2:03:34themselves to authority that of James and John he mentions angels also saying tell me not of
2:03:41James and John if one of the most exalted angels of heaven corrupt the gospel let him be anathema
2:03:48commentary saint John Chrissum here St john clearly agrees with us on two points first
2:03:55he shows that this is an afori argument and then second he also shows that this is meant to head
2:04:01off an objection which is given from an appeal to the apostles authority second we have St jerome
2:04:08he states quote "This could be understood as hyperbole and not to mean that an apostle or
2:04:13angel could preach otherwise than they had already spoken but even if this were possible it would
2:04:19not justify the Galatians straying from what they had received all the more so be cause because the
2:04:24apostle demonstrates in another passage that his own faith is stable." These are not the words of
2:04:30one who can ever deviate from his faith in and love for Christ commentary St jerome the logic
2:04:37that St jerome brings here is clearly in line with everything that I've been saying it's meant to be
2:04:42conditional it's meant to be hyperbolic it's not meant to assume somehow that this condition is
2:04:48even possible and it's not meant to be some sort of precept for continual distrust of
2:04:54the ecclesiastical magisterium third we have St vincent of Luren he states quote "Not that the
2:04:59holy and heavenly angels can sin but supposing it were possible that they should if any one of them
2:05:05were to attempt to change the faith once delivered let him be accursed." Commanatorium lived on now
2:05:12if you read the surrounding context it's very interesting how St vincent actually applies
2:05:18this because St vincent holds that this isn't about a possible departure of the ecclesiastical
2:05:25magisterium from the teaching of the apostles he actually says the way that this applies is
2:05:31to have certain teachers certain individuals who are theologians departing from the teaching of the
2:05:38ecclesiastical magisterium so actually St vincent interprets the departing to be departing from
2:05:44ecclesiastical teaching this is the exact opposite of the way in which the set of accountantis and
2:05:49the Protestants attempt to apply this and interestingly enough this is also something
2:05:53that St thomas frequently brings up as well in order to support the adherence to the contemporary
2:05:58magisterium of the church now that we have these fathers out of the way let's get into the early
2:06:02medievals first we have Claudius of Turin who is a very popular author that many Protestants will
2:06:08often quote because he was an iconoclast anyways he says quote "Thus if Paul declares that even the
2:06:15apostles of Christ who were so well known for performing signs and wonders and even an angel
2:06:21from heaven whose spiritual status might commend him would be anathematized for teaching otherwise
2:06:26than what Paul had taught how much more would those be anathematized who have no such testimony
2:06:32to commend them and attempt to deceive?" This could also be understood hyperbolically not that
2:06:38the apostle or an angel could actually preach differently than what they had already said
2:06:43but even if it were possible for the apostles and angels to change they should still not turn away
2:06:49from what was once received claudius of Turin second we have Robenus Morris who is one of the
2:06:55greatest figures of the Carolinian Renaissance he with blessed Aquin basically saved the Latin
2:07:01heritage of the church and passed it on to future generations and on top of that they
2:07:05were absolutely brilliant theologians who laid much of the groundwork for medieval scholasticism
2:07:11he says quote "This can also be understood hyperbolically not that the apostle or an angel
2:07:17could preach something different than what they had once said but that even if it were possible
2:07:22for both the apostles and angels to change they the Galatians should not turn away from what they
2:07:27had once received." Commentary St rabanis Morris third is Otto of Vchelli who is a great reforming
2:07:35bishop of 10th century Italy he states quote "This passage is understood hyperbolically."
2:07:41The apostle was not saying this because he or an angel could actually be changed or preach
2:07:46something different but he speaks by exaggeration as if saying "If it were possible for me or an
2:07:54angel from heaven to preach something different than what I preached even though this cannot
2:07:59happen you should not have departed from what you had once received." He also calls down a curse on
2:08:05the angel so that Peter's and the other apostles preaching would not be esteemed too highly if they
2:08:10preached otherwise for if an angel who holds greater authority were to preach differently
2:08:15and fall under anathema how much more would the apostles atau of Verelli after the early medievals
2:08:22all of the high medievals basically speak in the same vein we can see this in the three
2:08:27great glosses on scripture the gloss ordinaria the gloss of media and the gloss of magna all three
2:08:34of these were basically study Bible notes of the medieval church the glosso ordinaria agrees that
2:08:41this is merely an a42i argument it states quote since I would excommunicate even myself or an
2:08:47angel how much more should the false apostles be excommunicated glossa ordinaria the gloss media
2:08:54is very clear about the hypothetical nature of this argument it states quote Ambrose comments
2:08:59that though we or an angel from heaven should be understood as an impossible event this is also
2:09:05to show that one should not easily submit to the false authority imputed to Peter and James
2:09:10by the pseudo apostles since even I who taught them before and not even an angel who is greater
2:09:15than the apostles would be permitted to preach otherwise glossa media the gloss of Magna which
2:09:22is the most interesting to me because it comes from the master of the sentences Peter Lombard
2:09:26it states quote note that he does not say this because it could actually happen but he is so
2:09:32certain of the truth of his gospel that even if an angel were to announce something different he
2:09:37would not believe it but would curse the angel a Foriori we could say that if I would excommunicate
2:09:44you or an angel much more should the false apostles be excommunicated glossa Magna besides
2:09:51the three great glosses we also have an excellent excellent exedite of the medieval church Nicholas
2:09:56of Lyra who is a Franciscan who actually dabbled a bit into rabbitic interpretation of scripture he
2:10:04states quote "Concerning this we should know that a conditional proposition can be true even if each
2:10:11part of it is nevertheless false or impossible as in this example if man flies man has wings
2:10:19this is true and yet it is false that man flies and has wings so it is with what the apostle
2:10:26proposes for the true apostles were confirmed in grace and still more were the holy angels
2:10:32on account of which it is false and impossible concerning each part both that they would preach
2:10:38against the truth of the gospel and that they would be anathematized and yet the conditional
2:10:43proposition is true namely that if they were to do this they would be anathematized nicholas of
2:10:50Lyra now after the medieval age we have the modern age and here we see three excellent exedites who
2:10:57basically say the same thing that I'm saying first we have the Dominican cardinal and hammer of the
2:11:03Protestants Thomas Deio Kagetim he states quote "The conditional statement is true even though
2:11:09both the antecedent and consequent are impossible if an angel from heaven were to preach a gospel
2:11:15besides the gospel of Christ he would be anathema Thomas Devioan." He's basically arguing along the
2:11:23same lines of Nicholas of Lyra and also the points that I made above second we have the
2:11:28Dominican historian Noel Alexandre he states quote "This is an impossible and hyperbolic supposition
2:11:36for it is impossible that a holy angel sent by God would announce a different gospel than that which
2:11:42the Apostle Paul preached Noel Alexander lastly we have the king of the exedites Cornelius Laped he
2:11:51proves in very much detail many of the same points that I went over above and he provides a very good
2:11:56synthesis of the ecclesiastical tradition in interpreting this passage first he follows what
2:12:02I said above about saints Vincent and Thomas when it comes to the departing from the teaching being
2:12:07the departing of contemporary ecclesiastical teaching he quotes St augustine to support this
2:12:12who says quote I do not accept what the blessed Cyprien held on the baptism of heretics because
2:12:18the church for whom Cyprien shed his blood does not accept it contra cresconium liver secundis
2:12:26capitulum trigenta duo sanctus augustine second he interprets the statements about the apostles
2:12:35to be hypothetical impossibilities he states as a matter of fact it is impossible for the angels
2:12:42are established as in bliss so in all truth it is an hyperbole to state an impossibility if
2:12:50God were to reveal a faith contrary to that which we have received and which he originally revealed
2:12:55himself we should be bound to believe the first and not the second for if he should reveal one
2:13:01contrary he would be changed and would cease to be God and the first and infallible truth
2:13:08but since this is impossible it follows that God cannot give a contrary revelation and hence that
2:13:15those who teach contrary doctrine get it not from God but from their own heads or else by revelation
2:13:21from devils cornelius aled in conclusion there are many many many other authors that I read to
2:13:30prepare this video i could have quoted double or triple the authorities who are basically saying
2:13:35the same thing over and over and over again but what's clear about this is that this text in no
2:13:42way is going to uphold any sort of anti-atholic principle of magisteriology or even some sort of
2:13:50argument that the set of aontists make about consistently questioning the teaching of the
2:13:55magisterium in order to discern whether it has fallen away or even indicating a possibility of
2:14:01this falling away it indicates none of that and it gives no groundwork for any sort of principle
2:14:06but anyways as always God bless if you've been in internet theology circles for any time you've
2:14:12probably heard the name James White mr white has been attempting to refute the teachings of the
2:14:17Catholic Church for the better part of 30 years having debated such figures as Jimmy Aken Trent
2:14:22Horn and many others going all the way back to the '90s anyone who's familiar with his works
2:14:28knows that one of Mr white's favorite defenses of his own authority is that he quote teaches church
2:14:34history some of you may know that uh the first the first class I ever taught after I graduated from
2:14:41seminary at uh Grand Canyon back then and was it university yet or was it still just Grand Canyon
2:14:47College i can't remember at that point in time was church history this appeal is brought forward
2:14:52to guard his lackluster historical arguments from relevant criticism brought forth from a
2:14:57rigorous study of primary source materials one of these claims that Mr white defends in this
2:15:03way are the terrible calumnies he levels against Pope St zimmus it was Roman pontiff from 417 to
2:15:10418 mr white claims that Pope St zazmus fell into the heresy of Pelagianism when he had supposedly
2:15:17exonerated his follower Kalistius in the year 417 as I point out Augustine not only never said but
2:15:24the entire context of that was in the context of demonstrating that the uh church in North Africa
2:15:33stood firmly against Pope Zosimus who claimed I have fully examined this pelagius and Celestius
2:15:41they're they're fine they I I restore them and the church in North Africa said no further
2:15:46than this he claims that the great doctor of grace St augustine of Hippo accused the pope
2:15:51of heresy convincing him eventually to change his mind the next year through the work of the
2:15:57Senade of Carthage in the year 418 contrary to these calumnies from Mr white the doctor
2:16:03of grace always was the greatest defender of Pope St osmus recognizing that Calacius was a liar who
2:16:10had a history of purposefully misrepresenting his own views in order to try to be exonerated
2:16:15which according to Marius Marcato an early ecclesiastical writer he tried this in Carthage
2:16:21Ephesus Constantinople Jerusalem and finally in Rome anyone who reads the primary sources the
2:16:28documentation from St augustine Pope St zazmus the Senate of Carthage and early historians who
2:16:34wrote on this matter would know this yet unfortunately Mr white does not read any
2:16:39of these primary sources but only a smattering of anti-atholic pmical works which blind him
2:16:45to the simple truth present in the historical narrative but first let's get some background
2:16:50information about the situation for a fuller treatment of this era of church history you can
2:16:55view my video called quote "The downfall of the blinds." But here I will outline the basics many
2:17:01have heard the name Pelagius who was a Hezi that opposed the traditional teaching of the church
2:17:06on justification grace and original sin but less have heard the name Clesius klesius was basically
2:17:12the propagandist for Pelagius who went throughout the Roman Empire defending him yet after years of
2:17:18being subject to the scrutiny of many senods and the skillful pen of St augustine things
2:17:24began to crack in the year 415 in 4:15 Pelagius had been caught in a trap pstius was far more
2:17:30explicit about the implications of the teaching of Pelagius whereas Pelagius was more reserved
2:17:35about being able to state things in such a way as not to be condemned pelagius had been called to
2:17:41a syninnod at Diaspoolis where he did his normal act of equivocation yet the bishops at Diaspoolis
2:17:48had a way around this rather than presenting the more reserved statements of Pelagius they
2:17:53presented to him the more explicit words of his friend Callesius in response to this Pelagius was
2:17:59caught between a rock and a hard place he could either condemn his friend and save his own skin
2:18:04vainly claiming that Calacius's teaching was different than his own or on the other hand
2:18:10he could stand behind his friend and himself be condemned pelagius took the coward's way out and
2:18:15condemned his friend before the Senade and in a letter to the pope and so was exonerated by the
2:18:20Senade news of this reached St augustine and he recognized the trickery at hand and sent to St
2:18:26john of Jerusalem the head of the Senade a Greek copy of his own work against Pelagius on nature
2:18:32and grace and a copy of the acts of an earlier Senade at Carthage which condemned Pelagius so
2:18:38that they could make a more informed decision on the matter along with this he asked for the
2:18:42acts of the sinod from St john of Jerusalem so he could confirm his suspicions upon receiving the
2:18:48acts from St john of Jerusalem he wrote a work called on the proceedings of plagius where he
2:18:53confirmed these suspicions by the very text of the acts beyond this sinods were called in Carthage in
2:18:59Malay to renew this condemnation of Pelagius and St augustine personally wrote a letter to Pope St
2:19:05innocent the first begging him to formally condemn Pelagius with his apostolic authority in order to
2:19:11finally stamp out Pelagianism for good recognizing the supreme authority of the pope to judge in
2:19:17these matters in January 417 the condemnation would come from Rome where Pope St innocent I
2:19:24would condemn Pelagius and Calstius as heretics and excommunicated them unless they recant their
2:19:30errors famously upon hearing the news St augustine preached a sermon sermon 131 where he stated quote
2:19:37"About this case two councils were sent to the apostolic sea whence also responses came the
2:19:43case is finished if only the error were at some point finished therefore we warn that they may
2:19:48turn we teach that they may be instructed let us pray that they may be changed." End quote a
2:19:54more extensive treatment of this is found in his epistles now that Calacius had basically been left
2:20:00out to dry he had one last attempt to clear his name in March of 417 Pope St innocent I had died
2:20:07and Pope St zimmus was elected as his successor so Callesius traveled to Rome and told Pope St
2:20:13zimmus that he agreed with the letters recently issued by Pope St innocent so upon hearing this
2:20:18Pope St zimus sent letters to Africa telling them that he saw no reason why Callesius couldn't be
2:20:24reinstated if he claimed to agree with Pope St innocent so Pope St zazmus asked for them
2:20:30to send material showing that Classius was lying or else he would be reinstated the North Africans
2:20:35obeyed and there was a Senotic Carthage called in 418 once the material from the Senade was sent to
2:20:41Pope St zasmus he clearly saw that Calacius was a liar and revoked the agreement to reinstate him
2:20:47beyond this he actually promulgated a document that showed the broad extent of papal authority
2:20:53during the time the epistol tractor which was promulgated to the entire world with the help
2:20:59of the emperor emperor Hanorius and signed by bishops throughout the entire world those
2:21:04refusing such as Julian of Eclanu were condemned so rather than being some sort of argument against
2:21:11the papacy as we will see the situations of Pope St innocent and Pope St zazmus show the eminent
2:21:17authority accorded to the pope so here we see that there are three central lies that uphold Mr
2:21:23white's reading one Mr white claims that Calacius presented Pelagian doctrine to Pope St zimmus and
2:21:30that Pope St zasmus became a Pelagian he did not rather he presented the teaching of Pope
2:21:35St innocent and lied about agreeing with it which is evident from the primary sources from Pope St
2:21:40zmus's own words the recollection of St augustine the recollection of Marius Marcato and the letter
2:21:47of Pollinus the deacon to Pope St zasmus two Mr white claims that Pope St zasmus supported
2:21:53the teaching of Clelesius he did not rather he conditionally agreed to reinstate him if the
2:21:59evidence given from the African sinods did not definitively show that he was lying about his
2:22:04position and truly did agree with what Pope St innocent wrote due to the lack of standing that
2:22:08was in the original Senade in Palestine three Mr white claims that St augustine in the Senate of
2:22:15Carthage condemned Pope St zazmus for heresy rather they recognized the tricks of Calstius
2:22:21and just as St augustine had done a few years before with St john of Jerusalem St augustine
2:22:26presented the evidence in obedience to the Pope as a bonus point to expose his utterly absurd reading
2:22:31of church history Mr white also claims following Eric Svenson that Pope St exosmus only condemned
2:22:38Pelagianism when he quote found out that his predecessor Pope St innocent had condemned them
2:22:44about a year earlier and eventually once the civil authority got involved and we can theorize as to
2:22:53how that is um he did a full turnaround there have been many times the bishop of Rome has said this
2:23:02okay later on not this this reading is completely absurd as the condemnation of Calius and Pelagius
2:23:10by Pope St innocent was widely known when it was issued not some sort of private matter it
2:23:15is absurd to pretend that Pope St zazmus who was a priest in Rome before his election would not have
2:23:21known about it further the entire discussion was predicated on the fact that Calacius lied about
2:23:26his affirmation of Pope St innocent's letters now that we have the background information out of the
2:23:31way let's get into the actual comments that St augustine himself make about this controversy
2:23:36he comments on the situation both during the controversy and at the end of his life in his
2:23:40work against Julian showing that he kept a consistent view of the situation throughout
2:23:45his entire life which is reflected in other primary sources during the time he summarizes
2:23:50the situation well in his work against Julian where he states quote why do you accuse Osmus
2:23:55of blessed memory bishop of the apostolic sea of proverication to protect your own baseness he was
2:24:01in accord with his predecessor Innocent whom you feared to mention you preferred Zazmus because he
2:24:07dealt more leniently with Calacius at first when Calstius promised to correct any of his statements
2:24:12that were unacceptable and agreed to abide by the judgment of innocence letters end quote
2:24:18notice there are two important clarifications that St augustine makes first he clarifies that
2:24:23the decision was not doctrinal since he affirms that Pope St zasmus was quote in accord with
2:24:28his predecessor innocent end quote second he clarifies that Calstius had presented himself
2:24:34as agreeing with Pope St innocent he comments on this issue at length in his on the grace of Christ
2:24:39in original sin book two first he introduces the topic stating quote "The Bishop Zazmus however who
2:24:46presided over the sea upon seeing him hurrying headlong and so great presumption like a madman
2:24:52chosen his great compassion with a view to the man's repentance if it might be rather to bind him
2:24:58tightly by eliciting from him answers to questions proposed by himself then by the stroke of severe
2:25:04condemnation to drive him over the precipice down which he seemed to be even now ready to fall
2:25:10i say advisedly down which he seemed to be ready to fall rather than over which he had actually
2:25:16fallen because he already in the same book of his forecast the subject with an intended reference to
2:25:23questions of this sort in the following words if it should so happen that any air of ignorance has
2:25:28stolen over us human beings let it be corrected by your decisive sentence end quote here he states
2:25:33the original interaction between Pope St osmus and Callesius which we'll see more about later
2:25:38in the letter of Pinus the deacon callesius wrote an overview of his statements and was dociled a
2:25:45correction so Pope St zazimmus hoped to heal him from his error there is absolutely no sense of
2:25:51some sort of condemnation of Pope St zazmus here in fact St augustine is very clearly defending him
2:25:56in this passage this agreement along with other details which I presented above are clear in
2:26:02the next chapter where St augustine writes quote "The venerable Pope Zazmus keeping in view this
2:26:07deprecatory preamble dealt with the man puffed up as he was with the blast of false doctrine so
2:26:14as that he should condemn all the objectionable points which had been alleged against him by the
2:26:19deacon Polinus and that he should yield his ascent to the rescript of the apostolic sea which had
2:26:25been issued by its predecessor of sacred memory." The accused man however refused to condemn the
2:26:31objections raised by the deacon yet he did not dare to hold out against the letter of the blessed
2:26:36pope innocent indeed he went so far as to promise that he would condemn all the points which the
2:26:42apostolic sea condemned thus the man was treated with gentle remedies as a delirious patient who
2:26:48required rest but at the same time he was not regarded as being ready to be released from
2:26:54the restraints of excommunication the interval of two months being granted him until communications
2:27:00could be received from Africa a place for recovery was conceded to him under the mild restorative
2:27:05of the sentence which had been pronounced for in truth if he would have laid aside his vain
2:27:10obstinency and be now willing to carry out which he had undertaken and would carefully read the
2:27:16very letter to which he had replied by promising submission he would yet come to a better mind
2:27:23but after the rescripts were duly issued from the council of the African bishops there were
2:27:28very good reasons why the sentence should be carried out against him in strictest accordance
2:27:33with equity what these reasons were you may read for yourselves for we have sent to you
2:27:38all the particulars end quote he actually adds interesting details in the next chapter going
2:27:43on to describe Pelagius's attempts to trick Pope St zazimus st and Augustine writes in the next
2:27:48chapter quote "Wherefore Pelagius still if he will only reflect candidly on his own position
2:27:54in writings has no reason for saying that he ought not to have been banned with such a sentence for
2:27:59although he deceived the council in Palestine seemingly clearing himself before it he entirely
2:28:05failed in imposing on the church at Rome where as you well know he is by no means a stranger
2:28:11although he went so far as to make the attempt if he might somehow succeed but as I have just said
2:28:17he entirely failed for the most blessed Pope Zasmus recollected what his predecessor who
2:28:23had set him so worthy an example had thought of these very proceedings nor did he omit to observe
2:28:29what opinion was entertained about this man by the trusty Romans whose faith deserved to be
2:28:34spoken of in the Lord and whose consistent zeal in defense of Catholic truth against heresy esau saw
2:28:41prevailing among them with warmth and at the same time most perfect harmony end quote st augustine
2:28:47always indicates that this move by Pope St zazmus was one of prudent consultation not some sort of
2:28:53error since the church in Carthage had dealt with the issue more extensively he writes quote "But I
2:28:59would have you carefully observe the way in which Pelagius endeavored by deception to overreach even
2:29:04the judgment of the bishop of the apostolic sea on this very question of the baptism of infants
2:29:10he sent a letter to Rome to Pope Innocent of Blessed Memory and when it was found him not
2:29:15in the flesh it was handed to the Holy Pope Zazmus and by him directed to us." End quote in his work
2:29:22against two epistles of the Plagians addressed to Pope St bonafice St augustine exposes the
2:29:27lie that Pope St zasmus supported Calacius as a Pelagian error quote "Moreover they accused the
2:29:34Roman clergy the Pelagians had conceived with a false hope that the new and detestable dogma
2:29:39of Pelagius or Calstius could be made acceptable to the Catholic intelligences of certain Romans
2:29:46when those crafty spirits however perverted by a wicked error yet not contemptable since they
2:29:51appeared rather to be deserving of considerable correction than of easy condemnation were treated
2:29:57with somewhat more of leniency than the strict discipline of the church required for while so
2:30:02many and such important ecclesiastical documents were passing and repassing between the apostolic
2:30:08sea and the African bishops and moreover when the proceedings in this matter in that sea were
2:30:14completed with Klesius present and making answer what sort of a letter what decree is found of Pope
2:30:21Zazmus a venerable memory wherein he prescribed that it must be believed that man is born without
2:30:27any taint of original sin absolutely he never said this never wrote it at all but since Calstius had
2:30:34written this in his pamphlet among these matters merely on which he confessed that he was still in
2:30:39doubt and desired to be instructed the desire of amendment in a man of so acute an intellect
2:30:45who if he could be put right would assuredly be of advantage to many and not the falsehood
2:30:50of the doctrine was approved he Callesius replied that he consented to the letters of Pope Innocent
2:30:57of Blessed Memory in which all doubt about this matter was removed and in order that this might
2:31:02be made fuller more manifest in him matters were delayed until letters should come from
2:31:07Africa in which province his craftiness had in some sort become more evidently known and
2:31:14afterwards these letters came to Rome containing this that it was not sufficient for men of more
2:31:19sluggish and anxious minds that he confessed his general consent to the letters of Bishop
2:31:24Innocent but that he ought openly to anatize the mischievous statements which he had made in his
2:31:31pamphlet lest if he did not do so many people of better intelligence should rather believe that
2:31:38in his pamphlet those poisons of the faith had been approved by the Catholic Sea that is Rome
2:31:43when his presence was demanded in order that by certain and clear answers either the craft of
2:31:48the man or his correction might plainly appear and remain doubtful to no one he withdrew himself and
2:31:54refused the examination neither would the delay which had already been made for the advantage
2:31:59of others have taken place if it could not be of advantage to the pertinacity and madness of those
2:32:05who were excessively perverse but if which be far from the case it had been so judged in the Roman
2:32:11church concerning Callesius or Pelagius that those dogmas of theirs which in themselves and
2:32:17with themselves Pope Innocent had condemned should be pronounced worthy of approval and maintenance
2:32:23the mark of proarication would rather have to be branded on the Roman clergy for this but now
2:32:29when the first letters of the most blessed pope innocent in reply to the letters of the African
2:32:34bishops would have equally condemned this error which these men are endeavoring to commend to us
2:32:40and his successor the holy pope Zazmus would never have said never have written that this
2:32:45dogma which these men think concerning infants is to be held nay would even have bound Calasius
2:32:52by repeated sentence when he endeavored to clear himself to a consent to the abovementioned letters
2:32:57of the apostolic sea assuredly whatever in the meanwhile was done more leniently concerning
2:33:03Clesius provided the stability of the most ancient robust faith were maintained was the most merciful
2:33:09persuasion of correction not the most pernitious approval of wickedness and then afterwards by
2:33:15the same priesthood Calstius and Pelagius were condemned by repeated authority was the proof
2:33:20of a severity for a little while intermittent at length of necessity to be carried out not
2:33:27a denial of a previously known truth or a new acknowledgement of truth end quote there are quite
2:33:32a few important notes to note here besides what we already have gone over above first and foremost
2:33:38St augustine clearly notes a level of agreement with Pope St zazmus there isn't a hint of critique
2:33:43in this overview rather he notes that the senot of Carthage simply encouraged Pope St zazmus to
2:33:49include additional condemnations of what Calius had said previously what was stated above about
2:33:53the letters to Carthage being one of consultation becomes evident as well since those in Carthage
2:33:59had more experience with Calstius since they were the ones who had originally condemned him a few
2:34:04years prior whereas Rome had more experience with Pelagius since he had resided there for many years
2:34:09he mentions letters going back and forth of consultation not some rebuke from the North
2:34:14Africans to Pope St zazmus he continues in the next chapter quote "Who does not see in what
2:34:19degree Calstius was bound by the interrogations of your holy predecessor Zazmus and by the answers of
2:34:25Calstius whereby he professed that he consented to the letters of Pope Innocent and fastened by
2:34:31a most wholesome chain so as not to dare any further to maintain that the original sin of
2:34:36infants is not put away in baptism because these are the words of the venerable innocent concerning
2:34:42this matter to the Carthaginian Council what could be more clear or more manifest than that judgment
2:34:48of the apostolic sea to this Calius professed that he asented when it was said to him by
2:34:54your holy predecessor Zosmus "Do you condemn all those things that are bandied about under your
2:35:00name?" And he himself replied "I condemn them in accordance with the judgment of your predecessor
2:35:05innocent of blessed memory." But he showed that he had answered deceitfully by the final event when
2:35:11he withdrew himself from the examination lest he should be compelled according to the African
2:35:15rescripts absolutely to mention and anmatize the very words themselves concerning this question
2:35:21which he wrote in his trackctate end quote so it is completely dishonest to even speak of a quote
2:35:26disagreement rather the sonat of Carthage gave a helpful suggestion so that the genuiness of
2:35:32Calacius's orthodoxy could be more particularly tested this suggestion has been passed down as
2:35:38the cannons of the council of Carthage 418 which can be read in Denzinger or a number
2:35:43of places online now that we have went over St augustine's recounting of the events which is
2:35:48the claim given by Mr white we can look at the actual epistles which support this reading but
2:35:54before we get into these particular letters we need to know more details about the Senade
2:35:58that had condemned Calstius in Palestine in the year 408 Emperor Constantine III had usurped the
2:36:04throne of the Western Roman Empire in 411 this usurppation was put down by Constantius III as
2:36:11a result many of the bishops appointed by Constantine III were exiled including two
2:36:15very important figures Lazarus of A and Heroes of Ars both of these bishops were exiled to the
2:36:22east in the year 415 St john of Jerusalem called a senade in order to resolve the Pelagian crisis
2:36:28this sonade was spurred on by letters written by these two exiled bishops yet for unknown reasons
2:36:34they did not show up to the Senade when summoned st augustine had heard that this was due to
2:36:39illness but there are other reports given in the historical literature either way this led to an
2:36:44odd situation where Pelagius and Calstius had to be examined by 14 bishops under St
2:36:50john of Jerusalem without the accusers present which is known as an accusation done in absencia
2:36:56which to a Roman was thought of as a terrible violation of due justice where one had a right
2:37:01to face their accusers the entire situation was a complete mess with accusations done in
2:37:06absencia by foreign bishops who were considered suspect due to their exiled status deceptive
2:37:12behavior from both Calacius and Plagius and the rejection of Calacius's doctrine by Pelagius as
2:37:18mentioned before rather than condemning St john of Jerusalem and the Senade St augustine recognized
2:37:23the difficulty in chapter 39 of his proceedings of Pelagius understanding how shady the entire
2:37:29situation sounded writing quote "They Lazarus and Hero might perhaps have reminded him St
2:37:34john of Jerusalem of something he had forgotten or something in which he might have been deceived
2:37:39by the Latin interpreter not to be sure for the purpose of misleading him by untruth but at least
2:37:45owing to some difficult the occasion by a foreign language only imperfectly understood end quote st
2:37:50and Augustine even admits in chapter 41 that he concedes that in such difficult circumstances he
2:37:56himself might have also exonerated them stating quote the same feeling might have occurred to
2:38:01ourselves also if we had sat with them at the trial end quote now 2 years after this entire
2:38:06messius decided to travel to Rome and a letter was sent by St john's successor Prolus speaking
2:38:13well of Pelagius along with a confession given by Pelagius in order to decide this whole matter
2:38:19which to this point suffered from lack of due process St zamus decided that there needed to be
2:38:24a long and deliberate process of investigation so he sent two letters mainly focusing on the
2:38:30case of Calacius besides this he was informed of Lazarus and Hero in very negative terms pointing
2:38:37to certain moral faults this was made even worse by their involvement in the cases of St bryce of
2:38:42Tors and Bishop Proclusi st bryce of Tors the spiritual son of St martin of Tors had been
2:38:50accused by Lazarus and others of various crimes upon traveling to Rome the case was investigated
2:38:56and St bryce was found innocent bishop Proclusia committed various canonical crimes and was very
2:39:02resistant to the authority of the Roman pontiff while St augustine calls them our quote holy
2:39:07brethren he had only heard of them from report the first letter was written before September 21st
2:39:14417 and the second on September 21st 417 both of which were sent to St aurelius of Carthage who was
2:39:22responsible for the North African church in these letters St zosimus rebukes the shenanigans that
2:39:27took place at Diaspoolis especially the behavior of Lazarus and Hero and requests that Africa send
2:39:33documentation so that he can make a right judgment he begins the first letter letter 45 by first
2:39:39recognizing the great responsibility and prudence he must show to his great authority as pope
2:39:44writing quote "A great responsibility and judgment requires great preparation so that the balance
2:39:50of judgment may not fall short of the matters themselves that are under consideration." To this
2:39:56is added the authority of the apostolic sea which in honor of the most blessed Peter the decrees
2:40:01of the fathers have established with particular reverence." End quote he then introduces the topic
2:40:06which was the improper condemnation that took place in the synogloss quote "Calstius a presbyter
2:40:12presented himself for our examination seeking to clear matters concerning himself that had
2:40:18been presented to the apostolic sea in an improper manner." End quote after this he tells them that
2:40:23he had examined the circumstances surrounding the hospitals and found it wanting being content for
2:40:28the time being with the confession of Caliius who as we will see had sworn to uphold the previous
2:40:34definition of Pope St innocent and subjected himself to the correction of the Apostolic Sea
2:40:39quote "We examined all that had been previously done as you will learn from the records attached
2:40:44to this letter callesius presented his petition which he had given us and we had read it aloud
2:40:50not content with this we repeatedly investigated whether what he had written he truly believed
2:40:55in his heart or merely spoke with his lips end quote the last phrase of quote whether he truly
2:41:01believed in his heart or merely spoke with his lips is important since it indicates that Pope
2:41:06St zazmus considered plagianism to be heretical and it was merely a factf finding mission that he
2:41:11was on which was already evident from the witness of St august although we will see the same from
2:41:16the witness of Polinus the deacon this is evident when he continues to describe his chief complaint
2:41:22which is the lack of due process considering the inabsencia accusations of Hero and Lazarus who
2:41:28according to Calacius had never even met him except in passing he was even told that Hero
2:41:34and Lazarus had withdrawn their accusations which explained this absence he writes quote Callesius
2:41:40asserted that he had never had any discussions with the affforementioned persons regarding such
2:41:45matters and claimed not to have known them before they wrote against him he said that he met Lazarus
2:41:51only in passing and reconciled with heroes who acknowledged through the explanation that
2:41:56he had judged him wrongly as someone unknown and absent heroes even added a gesture of satisfaction
2:42:03withdrawing any prior misunderstanding end quote further he notes the incredible difficulty present
2:42:08with an absencia accusations quote "It is enough to note that the accusations against an absent
2:42:14person made by such individuals through letters should be met with skepticism when the accused is
2:42:20present explaining his faith in challenging his accuser." End quote rather than the mess which
2:42:25happened at Diaspools St zamus wants to hold a proper investigation which are in line with
2:42:30the careful consideration necessary for such an important matter which of course is understandable
2:42:35quote "Rarely does prolonged and carefully considered deliberation fail to arrive at
2:42:40the truth it is a sign of the best mind to be slow in believing what is evil for often when trust is
2:42:46denied to a good confession individuals are driven into despair and harm becomes irreparable." In the
2:42:52present case we deem nothing premature or rash but wish your holiness to know the outcome of
2:42:58our examination regarding Calacius's faith." End quote in order to have a proper investigation he
2:43:04needed a proper accuser present now due to the fact that the main combat against Pelagianism
2:43:10had taken place in North Africa it was obvious that he needed to have documentation from North
2:43:15Africa and namely from the original accuser that is Palinus so he wrote to them that he
2:43:21needed such documentation within 2 months writing quote a prior petition from him within Africa
2:43:27should have been available as testimony before us therefore within two months let those who accuse
2:43:33him come forward and demonstrate that he holds beliefs contrary to what he has declared in his
2:43:38petitions and profession otherwise after such open and manifest declarations your holiness may know
2:43:44that doubts have been resolved." End quote he also adds a note that he had chastised Classius for his
2:43:50silly behavior now this wasn't the only letter that was written an update was sent on September
2:43:5521st 417 where he wrote about the case of Plagius who had recently been supported in his cause
2:44:01by the bishop of Jerusalem and sent a libelus outlining his views pope St zazmus states that
2:44:08the libellus expressed orthodoxy which is probably true or at least had enough of an appearance of
2:44:13orthodoxy the idea that this contained Pelagian doctrine is an absurd notion both from what Pinus
2:44:20the deacon says from what was said in the previous letter from the ordinary behavior of Pelagius and
2:44:26from the interpretation of St john of Jerusalem's behavior given by St augustine when he wrote his
2:44:31work on the proceedings of Pelagius he goes on to state more about what he had heard about heroes in
2:44:36Lazarus now whether these statements are true or not is up to debate although it should be noted
2:44:41that after these letters were sent there was no defense of Heros and Lazarus given by the North
2:44:46Africans or anyone else rather the only defense comes from a brief statement in on the proceedings
2:44:51of Pelagius written before the letters of Pope St zazmus had been sent while the original epistles
2:44:57are written on or before September 21st 417 the response did not come until November 8th 417 via
2:45:04the libellus written by Paulinus the Deacon friend of St augustine and former scribe of
2:45:08Ambrose who wrote an early heography of the saint the reason that Polinus the deacon in
2:45:13particular was the one who responded in the name of the African church was as Marcus Marcato notes
2:45:19the fact that he was the one who had originally accused him in the African senade years before so
2:45:24Pope St zimmus was particularly asking for the accuser to witness which had failed to happen
2:45:30in the case of Lazarus and Heroes now were Mr white's description of the situation correct we
2:45:35should see some rebuke of Palinus the deacon of Pope St zazmus for supporting Pelagianism well
2:45:41what we actually see is the opposite he begins the epistle with a powerful acknowledgement of
2:45:46the Pope's authority to judge this matter quote "The true faith is never disturbed especially
2:45:51in the apostolic church where the teachers of false faith are quickly and truthfully punished
2:45:56they are made to put to death within themselves whatever they have conceived wrongly and brought
2:46:00forth worse so that the true faith taught by the apostles and held by the Roman church along with
2:46:06all the teachers of the Catholic faith may live in them if like other authors of heresies who
2:46:11have already been judged by the apostolic sea or the fathers and cast out of the embrace of
2:46:16the Catholic Church to perish in eternal death these individuals now detected or being detected
2:46:22persist in their perity let them be handed over to the spiritual sword for destruction end quote
2:46:28he then goes on to recall the condemnation given by Pope St innocent and actually affirms what St
2:46:34augustine would later record that is that Pope St zasmus only agreed to exonerate them if they
2:46:40were to ascend to the judgment previously given by Pope St innocent which they agreed to quote
2:46:45following this judgment of Pope St innocent your blessedness that is Pope St osmus when hearing
2:46:51Calstius at the Apostolic Sea commanded with these words among others do you therefore condemn all
2:46:56these things contained in Polinus's petition regarding the issues and elsewhere have you
2:47:02understood what letters the sea has sent to our brothers and co-bishops of the African province
2:47:07it was added do you condemn all we have condemned and hold to what we hold and again do you condemn
2:47:14all those things raising concerning your name and further what about the matters exposed in
2:47:19Polinus's petition end quote here he is describing the process in which Klesius was investigated by
2:47:25Pope St zazamus which St augustine noted earlier a rigorous process that involved a fullthroated
2:47:31condemnation of Pelagianism going on he writes quote "When you declared through the authority
2:47:36of the Holy Spirit that I could be approved as orthodox while rejecting and suppressing the
2:47:42insane and slanderous words of one raving you gave a decision which could heal him Calstius
2:47:47if you wished your judgment that is Pope St zimmus was as follows i do not want you to evade
2:47:54the issue condemn all these things attributed to you by Polinus or spread through rumor who would
2:48:00not be satisfied with such a judgment who would reject the wholesome agreeable and pious decision
2:48:06that is the decision of Pope St zimmus except one who had deviated from the faith end quote
2:48:13in fact rather than interpreting this as a support of plagianism he interprets this as
2:48:17a second condemnation of plagiianism writing quote "I give thanks to God and to Christ our
2:48:22Lord who has willed that the cause of his church be conducted so that the apostolic sea through the
2:48:28voice of two of its pontiffs has condemned heresy and commanded the condemnation of these things."
2:48:35I'd accused Calius of "I have always and still desire not his condemnation but his correction."
2:48:42end quote this is something supported by Marius Mecatur the great historian of the
2:48:47plagian controversy who defended St augustine in both Greek and Latin and was commended by
2:48:52the council of Ephesus in his commandum he writes quote Callesius after being excelled from there as
2:48:59well went in haste to the city of Rome during the pontificate of holy zasmus of blessed memory there
2:49:05in proceedings of which we possess copies he was interrogated though somewhat intimidated by the
2:49:11examiner his repeated responses and explanations gave the impression that he intended to condemn
2:49:17the propositions for which he had been accused at Carthage this was something he was firmly
2:49:22urged to do and for this reason he was treated with great degree of leniency by the holy priest
2:49:28and obtained a letter of goodwill addressed to the African bishops however he abused and perhaps
2:49:34continues to abuse this letter to deceive many ignorant people." End quote he then goes on to
2:49:39describe the remedying of the judicial impediment by his own appearance to accuse Calstius in person
2:49:45yet Calstius did not show up so he was not able to have a proper hearing of the case which Palina
2:49:51states as evidence of his deceptive behavior quote "At that time I could do nothing because the one
2:49:57who had appealed to the apostolic sea failed to appear he should have substantiated the merits of
2:50:02his appeal especially since even by human law the superior party is always the one who prevails when
2:50:08the appalent fails to act what further concern did I have to support his false doctrine before
2:50:13your reverence when I could instead rejoice if he had merited absolution by condemning what I had
2:50:19accused him of as the judgment of the apostolic sea has confirmed but he has always been a cunning
2:50:25fox intent on fraud he cannot change his nature believing he cannot be detected because he always
2:50:31places his confidence in his hiding places where he tries to conceal his guilty conscience but he
2:50:37can no longer remain hidden his deeds are now manifest and are being cut off by the spiritual
2:50:42sword of your blessedness so that the Lord's flock divided by his ravenous teeth may no longer be
2:50:48torn apart." End quote in order to better deal with the situation a syninnod was called by St a
2:50:53of Carthage various different letters and other information was collected together by the North
2:50:58African bishops who at this point had been dealing with this controversy for over 5 years these were
2:51:04sent to the apostolic sea and in March of 418 St zazmus sends a letter back this letter begins
2:51:10with a restatement of his supreme authority to judge in this matter yet his prudence in
2:51:14consulting the bishops of North Africa he writes quote Although the tradition of the fathers has
2:51:19granted such authority to the apostolic sea that no one dares to dispute its judgment and
2:51:25this has always been upheld by canons and rules the ecclesiastical discipline that continues to
2:51:30function under its own laws pays the due reverence to the name of Peter from whom it also descends
2:51:37canonical antiquity through the judgments of all willed that this apostle should have such great
2:51:42power rooted in the promise of Christ our God that he might bind what is loosed and loose what
2:51:48was bound equal power was granted to those who with his consent merited the inheritance of his
2:51:54sea indeed he has care not only for all churches but especially for this one where he sat he does
2:52:01not allow the privileges he established to waver or the judgments he fixed to falter having laid
2:52:07the firm foundation of his name which remains unshaken by any storms with Peter as the head
2:52:13of such authority and the rulings of all the great ones following him it was established by human and
2:52:19divine law that the Roman church which occupies his place should retain the power of his name end
2:52:26quote he goes on to assure the Africans that he is taking into consideration all the information
2:52:31that is being sent from them and that he wasn't uncritically believing everything that Callesia
2:52:36said writing quote "After receiving the letters sent through your subdeacon Marcelinos we examine
2:52:42the entire volume upon reading it thoroughly you seem to interpret the entirety of the
2:52:47correspondence as if we had granted uncritical faith to Calstius in all things agreeing to his
2:52:52every word without examining it down to the last syllable." End quote he then encourages them to
2:52:57patience since such examinations if done prudently take a long time as he noted earlier although if
2:53:04you recall from the letter of Pinus the deacon the foundations were already crumbling for Clastius
2:53:08since he had refused to face his accusers when sent on April 29th 418 the letter from Zmus is
2:53:15received finally Carthage was able to issue its cannons sending them a few days later to Rome in
2:53:21order to help with the examination of Clastius yet during this time something significant
2:53:26happened the emperor Hanorius condemned Pelagius and Calstius and ordered that they be placed under
2:53:32house arrest not being permitted to leave Rome pelagius who presumably was in Rome at this time
2:53:38stays while Calstius flees Rome as St pacidius in his life of Augustine witnesses this was something
2:53:44that was in response to a judgment made by Pope St zimmus therefore presumably the judgment was
2:53:50already made by the time the final examination took place via the cannons of the council of
2:53:55Carthage he writes quote when they perversely tried to their flattery to persuade the apostolic
2:54:01sea of their false doctrine it was most positively resolved by successive African councils of holy
2:54:06bishops first to convince the venerable innocent the holy pope of the city and his successor the
2:54:12holy Zimmus when the most pious emperor Hanorius heard of this judgment which had been passed upon
2:54:18them by the Catholic Church of God influenced by it he in turn decreed that they should be
2:54:23condemned by his laws and should be regarded as heretics accordingly some of them returned
2:54:28to the bosom of the Holy Mother Church which they had withdrawn from end quote marius Marcato also
2:54:34described this in his commandatorum stating quote when the African bishops wrote back explaining
2:54:40the entire case that had taken place before them and sending the relevant records that had been
2:54:46drawn up regarding himas was summoned to a fuller hearing he was asked to fulfill his promises by
2:54:52condemning the affformentioned propositions so that he might be absolved from the sentence of
2:54:56the African bishops by which he had been excluded from communion not only did he fail to appear but
2:55:03he also fled from the city of Rome for this reason he was condemned in the most extensive and severe
2:55:08writings of the affformentioned Zasmus of blessed memory which included the very propositions of
2:55:13which he was accused and narrated the entire case concerning both Kstius and his even more corrupt
2:55:19teacher Pelagius we have copies of these writings in our possession and similar writings were sent
2:55:24to the bishops of the eastern churches the dascese of Egypt Constantinople Thessalonica and Jerusalem
2:55:30end quote now when the cannons were received from Rome St zamus attempted to call Calstius
2:55:36to answer whether he asented to these accusations or not but he as I mentioned had already fled and
2:55:42did not come back further Pelagius refused to ascent therefore in order to resolve this whole
2:55:48controversy St exosimus wrote his famous tractoia sent to the bishops of the entire world that they
2:55:54might sign on to Austinian doctrine now there are other topics related to the papacy that are quite
2:56:00interesting to discuss such as the mission which was given by Pope Zazmus to St augustine in 418
2:56:06or the other comments made about papal authority after the condemnation given by Pope St innocent
2:56:11the first or the nature of the tracia but I will save those for a later video as always God bless
2:56:23and when it comes to the first and foremost big difference it is the doctrine of the filioquay
2:56:30this is the addition to the creed which occurred over actually over many centuries in the west
2:56:35there's a um there's a clear way to distinguish the persons in the trinity and for us that's
2:56:42called hypothatic properties and as we said in the other video on the councils the Capidosians
2:56:48their theology is confirmed at Constantinople one right this ecumenical council that follows Nika
2:56:56explicitly lays down in what sense we understand the father to be the cause and all of those capid
2:57:03capidosians are explicit that it's the father as the sole cause right they're uh unambiguous on
2:57:11this question if you read Sashinsk's book uh on the filioquay the modern academic treatment from
2:57:17a uniate at the time Sashinsky is very clear that the capidosians absolutely believe that the father
2:57:23alone is the cause of the son and the spirit uh therefore there's no secondary causal role
2:57:31there's no additional causal role that the son participates in or shares in with the father of
2:57:37the spirit's personal origin wow that's a lot of words too bad I'm not reading them so first will
2:57:52be St gregory of Nissa so who was St gregory of Nissa he was one of the Capidosian fathers
2:57:59and uh he really brought about the Capidosian fathers uh really brought about the fundamental
2:58:07uh formulation of the trinity uh they're very very important they were between Nika
2:58:12and Constantinople one so Constantinople one which kind of um dealt with all of the weird uh
2:58:21trinitarian beliefs that they were already dealing with at Nika except they decided all to like go
2:58:28into hyperdrive and you had like 500 different heretical offshoots of 500 different ones and
2:58:33so he's had all of these weird uh beliefs on the trinity and the capidosians had to kind of deal
2:58:39with them all and defend what would eventually become um nice constant constant I can never say
2:58:46that word orthodoxy so he's actually the younger brother of St basil so St basil and St gregory of
2:58:54Nissa were brothers and then St gregory Nazanzus was a friend so St gregory of Nissa actually uh
2:59:02was at the second ecu ecumenical council so he was actually at uh the first council of Constantinople
2:59:08where the nying creed uh was completed or probably where a version of the ning creed that was kind of
2:59:15in use was uh had this had a stamp placed on it uh for the whole church so the seventh ecumenical
2:59:24council which is the seven uh second council of Nika calls him the father of fathers so St
2:59:30gregor of Nissa he is very important so the first place uh which he talks about this talks about
2:59:36this um is uh in his uh first book of against enomium so he states there that the persons of
2:59:45the trinity only differ from one another in terms of origin principle or cause which as we'll see
2:59:52is going to result in a obviously a belief in the fioquay and I think he actually states this
2:59:58directly here which uh I have I have the Greek text uh right up there I put in parenthesis
3:00:05because there are some special words uh that some of the east online Eastern Orthodox think uh just
3:00:11absolutely obliterates the Latin sentence say "Oh well the fathers say this but they never say that
3:00:17the fathers say this but they never say that." But actually you know if you read the fathers
3:00:21um and you look at the underlying Greek texts they they do use these terms occasionally um the there
3:00:27there's some later Byzantine conventions that come up so uh I actually uh and this is this is
3:00:33my brief rant but I actually uh was defending Florence's um use of cause in the Greek sense
3:00:43so for those who don't know the council of Florence it says that the uh father and the son
3:00:48together form one cause and it says well it says one principle and then it says or cause in the
3:00:54Greek sense and a lot of orthodox will get upset about this uh because they say well the later
3:01:03Greeks like Maximus or John Damosine uh that they will use cause only for the father they'll say
3:01:09only the father is cause but actually as languages do uh they develop so the Latins during the time
3:01:17were actually reading guys like uh Gregory of Nissa Basil Basil sorry they they were reading
3:01:25uh these earlier Greek fathers they weren't really reading any later Greek father except Damosine
3:01:31um that he was really the only one so from the from the fathers they were reading yeah these
3:01:38uh cause or principle uh to refer to the uh song as we see in this text right here
3:01:45uh which we'll see uh so yeah it's language is developed uh it's not really a a huge deal uh but
3:01:52just make a note of that uh that this is a common sort of misconception within online orthodox
3:01:57circles that the Greek fathers uh never use this special magic term idea to refer to the sun that
3:02:04that's just that's just wrong so um St gregory says on account our account of the Holy Spirit is
3:02:12the same with the difference only of order as the son is joined to the father and having his being
3:02:18from him does not come afterward in existence so in turn the holy spirit holds close also to the
3:02:25only begotten so notice what he's saying right here going to stop right here he's saying as the
3:02:30son is joined to the father so we can kind of put this in like a little bit of a proportional
3:02:34uh thing as the son is to the father so the spirit is to the son in regards to existence
3:02:43how is this not already the filioquay but it it gets even worse for the orthodox who only in
3:02:50terms of causation so only in terms of causation so katon itas logon again my Greek pronunciation
3:03:02is terrible but but bear with me so according to the u the logon of idea according to the
3:03:13uh rationale or ratio is probably like a Latin term according to the idea of cause so who only
3:03:20in terms of causation is thought of as prior to the existence of the spirit so the uh then this
3:03:31existence is actually just hypostasis which I uh highlighted as well in the text so the son is only
3:03:40prior to the spirit in what way what way does he say according to the idea of idea is he prior to
3:03:47the hypostasis of the spirit so again the son prior to the spirit and causation again right
3:03:58in the context he's talking about the beginning of the sun uh from the father which he's comparing to
3:04:03the procession of the spirit from the son so this again very clearly is talking about the
3:04:11filioquay in our sense and he continues and then uh this this is actually even funnier this is like
3:04:16literally if I had one quote for the filioquay this would be it because it's it's so funny that
3:04:22like as he goes on and on it just gets worse for the orthodox he finishes temporal measurements
3:04:28have no place in pre-eternal life so temporal measurements have no place in pre-eternal life
3:04:37well I I guess that's talking about a temporal procession right no of course not of course
3:04:41that's not who he's talking about he's explicitly um denying that this has to do uh with a temporal
3:04:46measurement so with the exception of the idea of cause the Holy Trinity has
3:04:54no variance within itself at all and then this last sentence again just gets even
3:04:59uh even more brutal so with the exception of the idea of cause the holy trinity has no variance
3:05:06within itself at all so could the spirit and the sun have variance uh from one another according
3:05:16to something else but cause no no of course not only uh the relative opposition which uh that's
3:05:25more of a Latin scholastic term but the relative opposition that comes from procession is going
3:05:31to be able to distinguish persons as proceeding and then as the one who um uh actively is going
3:05:41to generate or spirate that's the only way uh that we're going to be able to distinguish the persons
3:05:52So um what we see here is we see four points so first it states that the holy spirit differs
3:05:58from the other two persons solely in order and this order is none other than that of origin and
3:06:04procession second it shows that just as the son is united to the father so that although
3:06:10he has existence from him he does not exist later similarly the Holy Spirit adheres to
3:06:15the only begotten and then it notes that the Greek text used here is ex okay that's excess
3:06:22thi excess thi hard for English speakers to say excess thigh which signifies to have uh
3:06:29therefore just as the son is united to the father not by any other reason than that he
3:06:34receives existence from him so the holy spirit is united to the son for that same reason and
3:06:40then third this is also explained further when he clearly affirms that the son is
3:06:44considered prior to the Holy Spirit in term of the principle or cause using the phrase
3:06:49katonio and then fourth he declares that without the notion of principle there is
3:06:56no difference in the trinity for which it follows that if one is not the principle
3:07:00of another there will be no distinction between the son and the holy spirit so again those four
3:07:04points that I already kind of went over uh go over the text so uh there's a second one
3:07:09um this is from the famous text uh not three gods says if however anyone cavails
3:07:18uh cavails cavls cavls at our argument on the ground that by not admitting the difference of
3:07:25nature it leads to ad mixture and confusion of the persons we shall make to such a charge this
3:07:31answer that while we confess the invariable character of the nature we do not deny the
3:07:36difference in respect of cause and that which is caused by which alone we apprehend that one person
3:07:43is distinguished from another again he says the same thing here and he's going to explain further
3:07:48actually here by our belief that is that one is the cause so that's obviously the father another
3:07:55is of the cause that is obviously the sun and again in that which is of the cause we recognize
3:08:01another distinction okay what is what is the what is the distinction what is the distinction between
3:08:07um those of the cause what is the distinction hm what could be the distinction with procession well
3:08:16let's find out for one is directly from the first cause wow one is directly from the first cause so
3:08:23this is talking about the son right and another is by that which is directly from the first okay
3:08:28so we have uh so we have the cause that's father we have um that which is from the cause and then
3:08:35we have a third one which is that by which that by which is directly from the first cause so it
3:08:44it seems here that we're going to have one who directly proceeds okay and then uh we're going
3:08:51to have one which proceeds from the cause but also proceeds from uh that which is from the
3:08:57cause hm what could this be in reference to well obviously it's in reference to the foquay right
3:09:06so that the attribute of being only begotten abides without doubt in the son and the
3:09:10interposition of the son uh while it go okay then look interposition of the song while it guards his
3:09:16attribute of being only begotten does not shut out the spirit from his relation by way of nature to
3:09:21the father does not shut out the spirit from his relation by way of nature again by way of nature
3:09:28to the father but in speaking of cause and of the cause we do not by these words denote nature for
3:09:36no one would give the same definition of cause and of nature but we indicate the difference in the
3:09:41manner of existence or the manner of hypostasis so again this is something which is obviously
3:09:51the existence of the spirit is from that which is directly from the cause that is the song fell very
3:10:01very clear here very clear what's going on and then uh in another place uh in the same uh work
3:10:09he says so in the other case when we learn that he is unbegotten we are taught in what mode he
3:10:16exists and how it is fit that we should conceive him as existing but what he is we do not hear in
3:10:23that phrase when therefore we acknowledge such a distinction in the case of the Holy Trinity as to
3:10:31believe that one person is the cause and another is of the cause okay again father son we can no
3:10:38longer be accused of confounding the definition of the persons by the community of natures thus since
3:10:43on the one hand the idea of cause differentiates the persons of the Holy Trinity declaring that one
3:10:50exists without a cause another is of the cause and since on the other hand the divine nature
3:10:55is apprehended by every conception as unchangeable and undivided so these reasons we properly declare
3:11:01the godhead to be one and god to be one and employ in the singular all of the of the all of the other
3:11:07names which express divine attributes notice the idea of cause that's what differentiates okay now
3:11:15uh um I actually had some bonus quotes uh for us that are fun that actually uh Pavius didn't
3:11:22include uh but I had from my preparation with my debate with Ubetus this is from the
3:11:28uh on the Holy Spirit he's going to say basically the same thing he uh gives a great analogy it is
3:11:34as if a man were to see a separate flame burning on the three torches and we will suppose that the
3:11:41third flame is caused by that of the first being transmitted to the middle and then kindling the
3:11:47end torch that's fioquay right here what you have is father is a communication to
3:11:53the son and then the father spirates the spirit through that uh through the son so they form one
3:12:02cause okay so this is clearly uh you can say oh whoa bro that doesn't make sense
3:12:10how you can have one cause you can have two supposito well we can talk about that later
3:12:15um we can talk about that later for sure but don't say that Greg Nissa isn't teaching this
3:12:22because he is he is he thinks the third flame is caused by that of the first being transmitted to
3:12:27the middle then kindling the end torch that's what he thinks he thinks exactly what we think
3:12:39okay so and then this one this one's so fun and I know I I posted so much text on here this is great
3:12:46this one's fun uh because there's actually a bit of a lore to this so if you look at some additions
3:12:52uh this is from like an academic edition to it this is from a popular edition i just wanted to
3:12:57make sure I looked at all of the you know all of the critical notes and whatever just to make sure
3:13:04I wasn't uh doing my forgery because I know I'll get hit with that oh bro it's a forgery
3:13:11um but here we have the third homaly um in the Lord's Prayer by St greg Mesa now why is this an
3:13:21interesting why why is this an interesting text to bring up well what's interesting is the fact
3:13:28that Eastern Orthodox actually when they print this text remove these sections uh if you look
3:13:36at some of the uh popular Orthodox editions of the homalies on the Lord's Prayer by St
3:13:44gregory of Nissa you're not going to see this section this is so I'm I'm giving you guys some
3:13:51forbidden knowledge right now because you know the Orthodox realize he's teaching the filioquay here
3:13:57way too clearly so we got to remove it which is ironically uh they will accuse us of doing
3:14:03this sometime so yeah their their version is um is bastardized really they remove remove from this so
3:14:16uh I will read it proper to the father is to exist from no cause one cannot perceive the same in the
3:14:23case of the son and the spirit the son comes from the father as the scriptures say in the
3:14:28spirit from god and proceeds from the father but just as since it belongs to the father alone to
3:14:34exist without a cause it cannot be applied to the son of the spirit so too existing from a
3:14:39cause which is proper to the son of the spirit can naturally not be observed in the father so
3:14:46uh we're good right now now the father obviously is not from a cause now since not being unbegotten
3:14:53is common to the son and spirit okay so not being unbegotten so he's not going to say being begotten
3:15:01obviously but not being unbegotten not having an ash ability something which is common to the
3:15:06son of the spirit now that I think of this this actually uh kind of um debunks goas's position on
3:15:12something which I need to write a note about but uh now since not being unbegotten common to the
3:15:18son and the spirit lest some confusion of subject be seen it is once again possible to discover an
3:15:27unmixed difference in their properties okay so how how are we going to distinguish between these
3:15:32properties since they're both unbegotten such that the commonality is preserved and what is
3:15:37proper is not confused okay how how do we do this how do we do this please please let us know st
3:15:44gregory of Nissa for the only begotten is named son from the father okay so only begotten is
3:15:53from the father thank you St gregory by the holy scripture and up to this point the text
3:15:58confirms his property okay so we just got from the father from the son now what's for the holy
3:16:03spirit how do we distinguish him from the son how could we ever distinguish the holy spirit
3:16:07from the son you know I've been wondering this too it seems like you know it doesn't make sense
3:16:12uh since you know both the spirit and the son are unbegotten so how or are are not unbegotten how
3:16:18do you distinguish the two well he's going to tell us but the holy spirit too is said to be
3:16:25from the father what else okay he's also said to be of the father okay the son's also of the father
3:16:31the spirit's also of the father so how does the spirit distinguish from the son then and testimony
3:16:37is given to its being from the sun wow yeah this is talking about energetic procession guys totally
3:16:44real not fake at all look at the context i gave you all the context so you know context talking
3:16:55about what is distinguishing uh the persons and their properties and how we are able to
3:17:03uh distinguish causality um so this is this is just referring to hypatic procession so uh I'll
3:17:14read a bit quicker the only begotten is named son from the father by the holy scriptures and up to
3:17:18this point the text confirms his property but the holy spirit too is said to be from the father and
3:17:23testimony is given to its being from the son and so the spirit that is called god is also
3:17:29the spirit of Christ and yet although the son is from God it is not also true that he is and
3:17:36is called of the spirit so the son is not of the spirit nor does this relational in uh inference
3:17:46notice relational inference oprah but the uh the relations they're uh that that's western
3:17:53relational inference reciprocate so that by implication one can turn the statement around in
3:17:58the equivalent manner named Christ of the spirit in the same way that we affirm the spirit to be
3:18:03of Christ and so since this distinctive feature clearly and without confusion distinguishes the
3:18:08one from the other while the identity in activity testifies to the commonality of nature the pious
3:18:15idea of divine is strengthened through both claims since the trinity is counted in the
3:18:20hypostasis and not severed into heterogeneous fragments welcome back thinking about becoming
3:18:29Eastern Orthodox already Eastern Orthodox believe in the trinity take this into [Music]
3:18:37account the year is 1264 pope Urban IV former patriarch of Jerusalem is anxious to reunite
3:18:48the Greek and Latin churches however there's an obstacle to the reunion of the churches this
3:18:54comes in the form of the filioquay in both the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches to this
3:18:59day the Nying creed is the primary form of the profession of the Catholic faith yet there's
3:19:05actually a major difference between these two creeds in the Greek version of the creed it
3:19:10says "We believe in the Holy Spirit the Lord the giver of life." On the other hand in the
3:19:15Latin version of the creed used in the West it says "We believe in the Holy Spirit the Lord
3:19:19the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son." The difference is found in the
3:19:24last three words and the song this in Latin is the [Music] filioquay lord I want to know
3:19:40[Music] this was the major doctrinal difference between the east and the west
3:19:49these debates stretching centuries before the great schism in the 11th century all the way
3:19:54back to the 8th century even causing a schism in the 9th century these were the issues discussed
3:20:00in the 13th and the 15th century in the great reunion councils because of this Pope Urban
3:20:06IV as the vicer of Christ decided to consult the greatest theologian of his day St thomas Aquinas
3:20:14in response to this call from Pope Urban IV St thomas Aquinus wrote the work against the error of
3:20:19the Greeks although this title as we will see is a bit of a misnomer although not entirely inaccurate
3:20:25and this misnomer has actually caused a great deal of orthodox objections to this work by the great
3:20:31angelic doctor it is especially absurd considering the skills of prology that St thomas Aquinas was
3:20:37at that time and even to this day famous for St thomas unlike other scholastics always made sure
3:20:44to go to original sources when he could in order to verify the veracity of certain quotes and if
3:20:50he even suspected that they were forged he would never use them thus St thomas Aquinas more than
3:20:55any other theologian east or west was able to use mostly genuine sources but like any other medieval
3:21:02theologian both east and west certain inauthentic works of course would creep in yet when we look at
3:21:09this work against the error of the Greeks it is impossible to impute any wrongdoing to St thomas
3:21:15for when we look at the reason why Pope Urban IV asked St thomas Aquinas in the first place
3:21:20write this work it was meant to be in response to the work of a bishop named Nicholas of Croaton he
3:21:27was a Latin representative to Constantinople he wrote a work called the Lebellus in the Lebellus
3:21:33nicholas of Croaton argued that many of the differences between Eastern Orthodox and Roman
3:21:38Catholic theology in his day were purely nominal obviously Pope Urban IV was not convinced of this
3:21:45so he sent the work to St thomas Aquinas and asked for him to comment on it what St thomas did is he
3:21:51showed the genuine sense of the sources that Nicholas of Croaton quoted in that work in the
3:21:56second book of the work he actually largely argues against Nicholas of Croaton's thesis
3:22:01arguing that the formulations that the Latins have given represent genuine apostolic doctrine and are
3:22:08contradictory to the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox so it is completely dishonest to say
3:22:13that St thomas Aquinas used forgeries rather he commented on the forged works of a different
3:22:18theologian now what is quite interesting and quite ironic is that actually since Nicholas of Croaton
3:22:25was the papal leate to Constantinople it was from Constantinople that he got these forgeries so all
3:22:32of these forgeries that were used by Nicholas of Croaton were simply Greek forgeries that he
3:22:37had translated into Latin yet it is my personal opinion that St thomas Aquinas knew that Nicholas
3:22:43of Croaton's quotes were forgeries to begin with and we can know this by looking throughout all of
3:22:48the sections where St thomas Aquinas discussed these matters st thomas Aquinas was known for
3:22:53being a very consistent thinker he would often treat certain issues multiple times during his
3:22:58life and in each of these times he would quote basically the same authors and give more or less
3:23:03detailed arguments depending on the audience now he treated the filioquay eight times in his life
3:23:10and for those forged documents that Nicholas of Crowone used St thomas never quotes those again
3:23:15but enough of that this video is not meant to be some sort of argument from tradition
3:23:20or scripture dwong and I have produced many videos to that effect rather this video I
3:23:26wanted to bring forward what is the most famous of St thomas' theological arguments for the filioquay
3:23:47[Music] daddy
3:23:52now that we've gotten that out of the way what is St thomas's theological argument for the filioquay
3:23:57well he has a few some from the psychological analogy some from the nature of the power of
3:24:01spiration some from the nature of the order of persons but his most famous one is called the
3:24:08argument from relative opposition so what does relative opposition mean relative opposition
3:24:14is meant to designate a certain relation that excludes the identity of the subjects
3:24:20of the relation for example the relationship of fatherhood and the relationship of sunship have
3:24:26relative opposition because if you're a father you can't also be in that same relation to son
3:24:32these must posit two different subjects but on the other hand we can have other relations that
3:24:38don't have this so if you have the relationship of brotherhood and friendship that may exist in
3:24:43the same subject without positing two really distinct subjects so what St thomas argues is
3:24:49that if there is not relative opposition between the son and the spirit then like our relation of
3:24:55brotherhood and friendship one will simply posit two relations in the same subject rather than a
3:25:01relation that necessarily designates two subjects that are really distinct further he's going to
3:25:06argue that this relative opposition that we must posit between the sun and the spirit must include
3:25:11a relation of procession relation of principle and thing principle but let's slow down for a second
3:25:16and work out this argument a bit more carefully first we have to realize that there are two ways
3:25:21of properly predicating something to God first you can predicate something relatively to God
3:25:27second you can predicate something absolutely to God for something to be absolute it has to
3:25:31be essential to the trinity for example if we said that God is loving just wise these would
3:25:37be absolute predications of God on the other hand when it comes to relative predications it
3:25:42means that there is some sort of order to another and this comes from procession for example if we
3:25:47use terms like father son spirit these would be relative terms because the father is the father
3:25:54of the son the son is the son of the spirit the spirit is the spirit of the son and so on and
3:26:00despite what some Eastern Orthodox apologists say this distinction of names into absolute and
3:26:06relative is a distinction that is agreed upon by all of the fathers both east and west as
3:26:11representing the eastern fathers St sirill states quote "The relative names as they are applied are
3:26:18signified by both conveying the mutual knowledge of each therefore it is easier if one learns the
3:26:23right hand to know the left throw it and certainly that the opposite is also true as anyone would
3:26:28agree so the name father belongs to the relational names and similarly the name son he who denies the
3:26:35father denies the son and he who denies the son does not have the father either and this is very
3:26:39fitting and true for if there is no father since by nature he has begotten one would not grant the
3:26:45existence of the son for a son is because he is begotten and if there is no son is begotten
3:26:50neither would there be a father according to the fitting and consequent reasoning of concepts a
3:26:55father because he has begotten end quote this is more clearly affirmed by St augustine in
3:27:01day trinitate he states quote in God nothing is said to be according to accident because in him
3:27:07nothing is changeable yet everything that is said is not said according to substance for it
3:27:13is said in relation to something as the father in relation to the son and the son in relation
3:27:17to the father which is not accident because both the one is always father and the other is always
3:27:23son end quote now you are forced to ask yourself a question when it comes to the distinction between
3:27:30the sun and the spirit is this distinction something which is absolute or is it something
3:27:35which is relative it can't be something which is absolute because if it was absolute we would
3:27:40have some sort of distinction of the absolute attributes that is you would have a distinction
3:27:44of what is essential what is substantial to the persons which we obviously have to deny
3:27:49since the persons are consubstantial and this is recognized by each one of the fathers who discuss
3:27:54this problem so obviously the persons are going to have to be distinguished by that which is relative
3:28:00now it is easy to see how the father and the son are distinguished by that which is relative since
3:28:05the father is the father of the son son's the son of the father is also to see how the father
3:28:10and the spirit are distinguished by that which is relative the spirit is the spirit of the father
3:28:15but how are the son and the spirit distinguished by relation someone might say that the son and
3:28:21the spirit are distinguished by relation because they have different relations to the father but
3:28:26this obviously doesn't work as we mentioned above relation does not simply distinguish two persons
3:28:32rather only relational opposition to make this clear of why this is the case we could simply
3:28:37ask the question again what distinguishes those two relations from each other is it something
3:28:42absolute or is it something relative if it is something which is absolute now would obviously
3:28:47distinguish the essence if it was something which is relative then you would simply ask
3:28:52the question again and again and again and again and you would have an infinite regress and this
3:28:58infinite regress would result in no foundation for the distinction between the sun and the spirit
3:29:04this is why we have to go one step further and not simply state that there is a distinction
3:29:08of relation but that there is a true relative opposition between the two persons an instance of
3:29:15this is actually found when we look at the father the father has two relations the father is related
3:29:21as the father of the son and the father is related as the active spirator of the spirit yet are there
3:29:28two fathers since there are two relations no there's one father what is the reason for there
3:29:34only being one father well the reason is between these two relations there's no relative opposition
3:29:39so in what foundation do you have a relation of the spirit to the father and a relation of the
3:29:44son to the father and have two persons the spirit and the son clearly without relative
3:29:50opposition the persons would collapse merely being related to the same subject is not sufficient for
3:29:56distinguishing the persons rather you need true relative opposition between them at this point the
3:30:03distinction between the two persons is clear the son is the son because he's begotten of the father
3:30:08the spirit is the spirit because he proceeds from the father and the son so from this there
3:30:13is true relative opposition between the son and the spirit because the spirit proceeds from the
3:30:18son yet somebody may have a different objection they would state that the fathers say that we
3:30:23cannot know the distinction between the spirit and the son yet this response is ineffective
3:30:29first when these fathers say that we cannot know the distinction they're clearly not saying that
3:30:34we can't know anything about the distinction we obviously know that procession results in the Holy
3:30:39Spirit the getting results in the sun that's some sort of distinction rather what they're saying is
3:30:44that we cannot know the intimate character or the fullness of what distinguishes them just like we
3:30:49can't know the infinite character exhaustively of anything about God this is especially seen in
3:30:54the fact that these fathers actually do account for the distinction between the two they account
3:30:58for it the way that the Latins account for the distinction between the two that is that the
3:31:03spirit proceeds from the father and the son and the son is begotten of the father there are two
3:31:07quotes from St gregory of Nissa to this effect first in or not through gods he writes quote
3:31:13"While we confess the invariable character of the nature we do not deny the difference in respect
3:31:17of cause that which is caused by which alone we apprehend that one person is distinguished from
3:31:22another by our belief that is that one is the cause that is the father and another is of the
3:31:28cause the son and the spirit and again in that which is of the cause that is the son and the
3:31:33spirit we require another distinction for one is directly from the first cause that is the
3:31:38son and another that is a spirit by that which is directly from the first cause that is the son so
3:31:45that the attribute of being only begotten abides without doubt in the Son and the interposition of
3:31:50the son while it guards his attribute of being only begotten does not shut out the spirit from
3:31:55his relation by way of nature to the father end quote further in his homaly on the Lord's prayer
3:32:02he states quote "It is common to the Son and the Holy Spirit that they do not exist as unbegotten
3:32:08lest any confusion arise on this matter again we can find an incommunicable difference in their
3:32:13properties so that what is common may be preserved and what is proper may not be confused for the
3:32:19only begotten Son is said by scripture to be from the Father." And in this way the word defines what
3:32:25is proper to him but the Holy Spirit is said to be from the father and is also testified to
3:32:30be from the son son who is of God is not and is not said to be the son of the spirit the terms
3:32:36of the relationship cannot be reversed end quote second because intrinsically this response makes
3:32:41no sense as we already went over above there are two possibilities either it is absolute
3:32:46or it is relative if it is not absolute then it is relative one cannot appeal to mystery in
3:32:53this case without falling into contradiction in order to better understand the sequence of this
3:32:58argument we can actually put this in a little bit more formal terms by reverse engineering
3:33:03the way it works and then putting it in a group of syllogisms first if the son and spirit are really
3:33:10distinct then there is relative opposition since in God everything is one except there be relation
3:33:15of opposition as is seen from the case of the person of the father the son and the spirit are
3:33:19really distinct as all must concede therefore there is relative opposition further second if
3:33:26there is relative opposition between the son and the spirit then there's relation between the son
3:33:30and the spirit since relative opposition implies relation as the name indicates there is relative
3:33:35opposition as established above therefore there is a relation between the son and the spirit further
3:33:42third there is relation between the son and the spirit there must be procession for relation in
3:33:47God follows upon procession there is relation between the son and the spirit as established
3:33:52above therefore there is procession further four there is procession then either the son is the
3:33:59principle of the spirit or the spirit is the principle of the sun since there is a terminus
3:34:04aquo and terminus adqu of every procession there is procession as established above
3:34:10therefore either the son is the principle of the spirit or the spirit is the principle of the son
3:34:15further fifth either the son is the principle of the spirit or the spirit is a principle of
3:34:19the sun as established above the spirit is not the principle of the son as admitted by all therefore
3:34:25the sun is the principle of the spirit which is the doctrine of the filioquay this relies on the
3:34:31fact that the sequence from procession to real distinction is that procession leads to relation
3:34:36which leads to relative opposition which leads to real distinction thus if we posit distinction as
3:34:43everyone has to then we posit procession and if there is procession the procession is the
3:34:48procession of the spirit from the sun and not the other way around this argument is found throughout
3:34:53the works of St thomas to greater or lesser complexity from the time that he was a bachelor
3:34:58student to the time that he almost died as in apologetic works and also in catechetical works
3:35:04and also in simple theological works and is even found throughout his disputed questions so there
3:35:11are a lot of places where St thomas discusses this there are actually eight places each of
3:35:16which I'm going to list so if you want to read on your own go ahead and read it you actually should
3:35:21read it on your own because they're really good first book of sentences distinction 11 question
3:35:27one article one in the question whether the holy spirit proceeds from the son or only from
3:35:31the father second sumac constant tilles book 4 chapters 24 to2 which are titled that the
3:35:38holy spirit proceeds from the sun and arguments of those who would prove that the holy spirit
3:35:43proceeds not from the sun and their solution third de potentia question 10 articles fourth
3:35:49and five which are titled whether the holy spirit proceeds from the son and whether the holy spirit
3:35:54would still be distinct from the son if he did not proceed from him fourth compendium theologia
3:35:59book 1 chapter 49 which is titled that the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son fifth
3:36:05dation busi chapter 4 which is titled how the holy spirit proceeds from the father and the son sixth
3:36:12commentary on the gospel according to St john chapter 15 lecture 5 and chapter 16 lecture 4
3:36:207th suma theologia primma pars question 36 article 2 which is titled whether the holy spirit proceeds
3:36:26from the sun lastly as we mentioned in the introduction against the errors of the greeks
3:36:30book two and there's a lot of different chapters where he discusses a lot of different issues so
3:36:35definitely read the whole thing in conclusion it is easy to see how the foundational principles of
3:36:40trinitarian theology necessarily lead to the filioquet Without the filioquay there is no
3:36:46trinity because it immediately follows from the principles of our theology these principles are
3:36:53not merely Latin principles these are principles admitted by the holy fathers of both the east and
3:36:58the west this is not simply an argument that was made up in Latin scholasticism this was
3:37:04not simply an argument that St thomas came up with this is an argument that necessarily and
3:37:10immediately flows from the very terminology defined at the councils and held by the
3:37:16fathers these principles are foundational to our theology they're foundational to the very trinity
3:37:23itself the filioquay immediately and necessarily follows obviously upon all of these principles
3:37:31so for the Orthodox out there and for any of those questioning the filioquay whether it makes sense
3:37:37theologically you simply have to ask yourself how do I distinguish the sun from the spirit
3:37:52[Music]
3:37:52through my window conversation and the feelings that we make kind of love the
3:38:03eyes that tell me don't go the kiss I get from living is the same with [Music]
3:38:15you heat heat [Music]
3:38:26n heat heat
3:38:31[Music]
3:38:36n heat heat n
3:38:51[Music]
3:38:58[Music]
3:39:06so what the analogies show right at least for Gregor as I understand
3:39:09him suggest that there are two produced divine persons the son and spirit but he
3:39:12ignores one part of the analogy right that rep is required for a word right i'm speaking to
3:39:16you I got to have air coming out of my mouth more words um right right so he ignores this
3:39:20part of the analogy right the breath that breath is required for a spoken word um but
3:39:24um but a word is not required breath can breathe out without saying anything um but this would
3:39:28suggest the father first virates the Holy Spirit and then generates the sun just as breath is prior
3:39:32to it doesn't dude's writing a book this dude's writing a book on no he's writing a book on
3:39:42Henry of Gent a scholastic he supposedly studied like guys like St maximus they all they all come
3:39:49he doesn't know that when it talks about a word it isn't talking about a spoken word
3:39:52it's talking about a word in the intellect and the breath is talking about a spoken word he doesn't
3:39:58know he doesn't know he doesn't know yeah he doesn't he doesn't that's scholarship this
3:40:05dude Scott Scott W williams i think this dude got his training like Oxford he doesn't know
3:40:14yeah can I can I share my screen to show that the distinction is present in all the Greek fathers
3:40:20and St john somewhere yeah are you gonna go to St maximus where St maximus talks about
3:40:24you can share St maximus i'm going to share St john he said Gregory of Nissa aired because he
3:40:31said the breath spirit is required for breath so that would mean that spirit is prior to the
3:40:36sun but that's not what St nissa means that's an external word and St john Damosy who summarizes
3:40:42the Greek tradition talks about that and this is it it's right here is exposition of the orthodox
3:40:49faith book one chapter 12 right here uh let me just find it okay here chapter 13 okay so word
3:40:59is that which is essentially present with the father again word is also the natural
3:41:05movement of mind according to that which it uh according to that to which it is moved and
3:41:12thinks and considers being being as it were its own light and radiance again a word is a
3:41:19thought that is only spoken within the heart and again the word is the utterance is the
3:41:26messenger of the thought what is this here can you read this am I blind it's right here what
3:41:34is this can you read it one more time okay let's see um and again word is the utterance
3:41:40that is the messenger of thought so there's a word which is natural but then there's word
3:41:46which is the utterance of that thought so this is called the external word so Greg Fnissa did not
3:41:53error it's Oh man and I can't I can't believe guys guys like this like I I
3:42:04look at this and I'm like guys like this get 10th gear and they get like all all of like I
3:42:12was just looking at his publications and like what the heck what the heck is this
3:42:16publication by the way um disability ableism and anti-abbleism and medieval Latin philosophy what
3:42:24critical history of the middle ages and I don't know that one yeah what is that
3:42:36do you know what's unique about online plymics with the Orthodox they will actually remove basic
3:42:40doctrines taught by fathers east and west in order just to own the Latins i'm sure a few of you have
3:42:46heard the phrases relative opposition or relations of opposition dyer Erhan and the online Orthodox
3:42:53crowd have told you that relations of opposition is a Latin thing it's a western thing the Eastern
3:42:59fathers didn't teach relations of opposition in the Roman Catholic view in in how he's trying
3:43:03to defend it he's basing this on relations of opposition right begotten unbegotten but St louis
3:43:09theologian says that God transcends the diet right he surpasses the diet well this is completely
3:43:15novel but why do they do this well like most novelties from this crowd the reason is because if
3:43:21they affirm this doctrine then they would have to concede something that they don't want to or like
3:43:26so many other issues whether it be actis purists or divine simplicity it's simply easier for
3:43:32pmics for them so they decide to get rid of basic Christian doctrines in this case denying relations
3:43:38of opposition makes attacking the filioquay easier now why is this well first in order to understand
3:43:44this we need to understand what a relation of opposition even is a relation of opposition
3:43:48is simply a relation between two subjects that makes it impossible for these two subjects to be
3:43:53identified with one another So for example father and son have relative opposition father produces
3:44:01a son and the son and father cannot be identified with one another but on the other hand brother and
3:44:06friend are not relatively opposed two people can be both brothers and friends so what does
3:44:12this have to do with the filioquay well in the trinity we either predicate things absolutely
3:44:16or relatively things that are absolute are like wisdom justice love goodness and the like and
3:44:22things that are relative are like father of the son son of the father spirit of the father and so
3:44:27on so when we ask the question what distinguishes the son from the spirit is it something which is
3:44:32absolute well if it was absolute then they would be two gods so it must be something which is
3:44:37relative we further argue that this relation must be a relation that follows from origination can't
3:44:43simply be different modes of relation if you want the full spiel behind why this is the case a video
3:44:48is coming out soon on my other channel Distinguo once Mr unionist initiative is done editing but
3:44:54in the meantime you can look at Suma Theologia Prima's question 36 article 2 which I'll link
3:44:59below anyways because relation of opposition so naturally leads to the idea of the filioquay
3:45:05rather than doing like some theologians do and weirdly arguing that relations of opposition are
3:45:09not necessary in order to distinguish the persons looking at you Scotas they simply deny this basic
3:45:15doctrine taught by the fathers east and west so what I wanted to do here is I wanted to employ
3:45:20some help from a very famous theologian that you guys have probably not heard of and who more of
3:45:26you should read that is Diego Ruez de Mononttoya diego Ruez de Mononttoya or just Mononttoya as
3:45:32I'll be calling him was a Jesuit scholastic in the late 16th and early 17th centuries he died in
3:45:381632 and did most of his writings in the 1620s he was known for being in the generation immediately
3:45:43succeeding another famous scholastic Francisco Suarez mononttoya was known for one thing writing
3:45:49a lot he actually wrote nearly 5,000 pages just on doctrine of God what makes this even more crazy
3:45:56is that he didn't even write on the existence and attributes of God he just wrote on the will of God
3:46:01the intellect of God predestination the trinity and divine naming so he skipped out on the first
3:46:0612 questions of the suma and he still got 5,000 pages by the time he got to question 42 so why
3:46:13did he write so much well he wrote a lot because he wanted to do one thing he wanted to take the
3:46:18scholastic teaching of the theologians of the medieval era and the Baroque era before him and
3:46:23he wanted to take that and compare them to the teaching of the fathers this was a task done by
3:46:27other theologians during his era all Jesuits by the way Vasquez Suarez and Pavius for example but
3:46:33nothing was so extensive as Ruez de Mononttoya's treatment on the trinity which became classic in
3:46:38the field so what I wanted to do here is I wanted to take his treatment of relations of opposition
3:46:43and ask the question do the fathers east and west teach relations of opposition before we
3:46:49begin I would appreciate if you would consider becoming a patron at patreon.com/militintoist
3:46:54as a patron you have direct access to me in order to ask questions and have access to
3:46:58additional content including notes on the suma and additional weekly videos thank you and God bless
3:47:05to begin we need to get a lot more specific about what we mean by relation and how relation
3:47:09was actually understood in the petristic era so Aristotle listed 10 predicamentals one of these
3:47:15predicamentals was relation you may have heard about the term substance and the term accident
3:47:21well substance is one of the predicamentals and accident represents nine of the predicamentals
3:47:27one of which is relation this was written about in Aristotle's categories now in the Petristic
3:47:33era the categories was actually unique because it had been translated into Latin and was used
3:47:37in the education of basically every single father east and west so the fathers knew exactly what
3:47:43they meant when they used a term like relation or relative further with a lot of these fathers
3:47:48not only did they merely study the categories of Aristotle but they were educated by a group
3:47:53of philosophers called the paripotetics the parapotetics specifically commented on the
3:47:58works of Aristotle and standardized a lot of the definitions terminology and divisions throughout
3:48:05the works of Aristotle including when discussing relation a good example of this in the east is St
3:48:10john of Damascus who in his philosophical chapters explicitly draws from a commenter named Ammonius
3:48:17in the west a good example of this is St botheus due to the fact that he was bilingual he was able
3:48:22to draw from a lot of the Greek paripotetic commentators when he commented on Aristotle's
3:48:27works these authors there are three notes to a relation which are found in the category section
3:48:327 first relations are naturally simultaneous second relations are simultaneous in knowledge
3:48:39third relations are reciprocal interestingly when discussing the trinity these three notes
3:48:44are actually explicitly brought out by some fathers for example when you look at St siriel of
3:48:50Alexandria in his thesaurus when he writes against Eunomius he says quote "Those which are towards
3:48:56something are naturally and logically simultaneous and one implies the other those which are towards
3:49:03something as one is posited the other is posited as one is removed the other is removed." End quote
3:49:11now you may be confused by this language of towards something well this is actually the
3:49:16type of language in Greek that Aristotle uses in order to describe a relation we're actually
3:49:22going to see this later in other Greek fathers who simply use the language of that which is towards
3:49:27something now this witness of explicit quotations of Aristotle throughout the fathers should really
3:49:34be enough in order to settle this dispute because really what the Latins are doing in taking from
3:49:38Aristotle when it comes to relative and absolute names when it comes to relation and substance is
3:49:44exactly the same thing that the Greeks are doing from the exact same work since these fathers are
3:49:49explicitly drawing from Aristotle they are doing the same exact thing that the medieval
3:49:54Latins are doing when they talk about the relative versus the absolute in the trinity or relational
3:49:59versus substantive in the trinity the same exact texts are being used the same exact tradition of
3:50:05commentators are being drawn from so obviously the same exact doctrine is being professed in highly
3:50:11technical language none of this is colloquial but I actually wanted to go a step further from this
3:50:16because I think this would detract from the truly massive witness of the fathers east and
3:50:21west to simply point to the places where this is explicitly spoken of so what we can actually do is
3:50:27we can split these witnesses into two categories first there are those fathers who explicitly say
3:50:32that the personal idioms are relative and that the persons are only distinguished by relation this is
3:50:37especially seen in saints Augustine and Botheus second there are those fathers who do so a little
3:50:43bit less explicitly whether by simply using the language of Aristotle or by using one of those
3:50:49notes that we went over above and speaking about the relationship between the persons
3:50:53of the Trinity in this way so for example if a father said that the names were reciprocal they
3:50:58would obviously be pointing to the third note of relation to begin I wanted to go over the second
3:51:03groups of text in brief although be aware that I'm only giving a few examples there are hundreds if
3:51:08not thousands of examples that I could have used that I didn't first there are fathers who speak of
3:51:13the persons as naturally simultaneous an example of this can be found in St sirill's dialogue on
3:51:17the Trinity book four the relative name or towards something is the father just as that is the son
3:51:25for the son who is begotten and if the son who is begotten does not exist neither would the father
3:51:31exist according to the proper reason for the father indeed because he begott therefore both
3:51:37must exist simultaneously and both are removed simultaneously and each exists entirely in one
3:51:43existence and therefore it is said and is what it is this natural simultaneity is actually a
3:51:50frequent proof that the fathers bring up against the Aryans because if you prove that the persons
3:51:54are relations then the existence of them must be naturally simultaneous therefore if the
3:52:00father exists so must the son exist also second there are fathers who speak of the persons as
3:52:05simultaneous in knowledge which is the second note of relation an example of this can be found in St
3:52:10basil's contraomian book two where he combines the first and second notes proving the first from the
3:52:16second quote from the moment the father exists the son also exists and as soon as one grasps
3:52:22the concept of the father the son also arises for the father is indeed the father of the son this
3:52:29is even repeated by magisterial documents the council of Sardica repeats the first and second
3:52:33notes when it writes quote indubitably believing that the father was never without the son nor the
3:52:39son without the father for it is absurd to say that the father was not always the father for
3:52:44the father without the son cannot be named or exist another example is given by St basil who
3:52:50states the term father means the same thing as unbegotten yet it has the additional advantage
3:52:55of implying a relation therefore introducing the notion of a son end quote further quote father and
3:53:02son are mutually conceived of in accordance with the relationship subsisting between them st siriel
3:53:07actually goes even further for us and states that this simultaneity and knowledge is not only a
3:53:11simultaneity of human knowledge but also of divine knowledge such as in book one of the thesaurus
3:53:17quote if the father knows he always has knowledge of his son in himself for the fathers referred to
3:53:23the son and is called the father end quote further St gregory of Nissa in his great catechism chapter
3:53:292 states that the name word is relative quote in as much as the father of the word must needs
3:53:34be thought of with the word for it would not be word were it not word of someone end quote we see
3:53:40the same thing in the western fathers St hillary in book seven on the trinity says quote the name
3:53:45of the father includes the name of the son for the father is not except through the son and the
3:53:50signification of the son is the demonstration of the father because the son is only from the father
3:53:55end quote Ambrose in book one on faith degration chapter 5 says quote the father is known in the
3:54:01son and the son is known in the father but when you say father you also designate his son because
3:54:07no one is a father to himself when you name the son you also name his father because no one is son
3:54:12to himself." End quote i could bring up many many many other examples of saints both east
3:54:17and west saying basically the same thing but this should suffice third there are fathers who speak
3:54:22of the persons as reciprocal son of the father father of the son but I didn't bring forth any
3:54:26examples of this but now that we've gotten that out of the way we can begin to treat individual
3:54:30fathers and what they say on this exper i have selected eight saints most of them eastern in
3:54:37order to demonstrate this first St basil st basil is a saint that is venerated in both the east and
3:54:43the west he along with St gregory of Nazanzus and St gregory of Nissa are known as the Capidosian
3:54:49fathers and are highly regarded to this day these fathers were known for fighting various
3:54:54trinitarian heretics especially the Yunomians now we've already briefly discussed a few passages
3:55:00from St basil and from his frequent recourse to the notes of relation we can be sure that
3:55:06he teaches what we teach on this matter now it's clear that St basil already affirms relation from
3:55:12the various quotations that we gave above but he goes further than this and actually treats
3:55:17the issue ex-professo against the Unomians the most clear treatment of this is found in book
3:55:21two of against Unomius here he distinguishes very well between substance and relation mirroring a
3:55:27lot of what St augustine says in book five of Dinitate earlier in book one he introduces the
3:55:33notion of relation stating that the term of father adds to the notion of unbegotten the
3:55:39idea of relation to the son and he actually argues against simply speaking of the father's unbegotten
3:55:45as the eomians ordinarily did then in section 20 of book one he goes into further detail of
3:55:51what kind of relation this is quote why then does he refuse to accept that there is order in God he
3:55:58thinks that if he had demonstrated that priority in God is conceivable in no other way then he is
3:56:04demonstrating that the only remaining option is that God has preeeminence according to the
3:56:08substance itself but we say that the father is ranked prior to the sun in terms of the relation
3:56:14that causes have with what comes from them not in terms of a difference of nature or a preeminence
3:56:20based on time otherwise we will deny even the very fact that God is the father since difference
3:56:26in substance precludes their natural connection here his entire purpose is to refute the Unomian
3:56:32claim that if there is difference or order within God this must be a substantial difference or a
3:56:36substantial order rather he says that we predicate things of God in two ways on the one hand there
3:56:42are certain absolute terms which are substantial predicates on the other hand there are certain
3:56:46relative terms that are predications of relations so one cannot understand the Catholic response to
3:56:52the eomians unless they have this presupposition then in book two he goes a little bit further and
3:56:58not only speaks in terms of relation and substance but absolute terms in relative terms drawing from
3:57:04the same exact distinction that St augustine gives that some Eastern Orthodox critique he writes
3:57:09quote "Who does not know that some names are expressed absolutely and in respect of themselves
3:57:15signifying the things which are their reference but other names are said relative to others
3:57:20expressing only the relation to the other names relative to which they are said for example human
3:57:26being and horse and ox each communicate the very thing that is named but son and slave and friend
3:57:32reveal only the connection with the associated name so when anyone hears something begotten he is
3:57:38not brought in his mind to a certain substance but rather he understands that it is connected with
3:57:43another for that which is something else begotten is said to be something begotten of someone else
3:57:49so how is it not the peak of insanity to decree that that which does not introduce a notion of
3:57:54any subsistence but only signifies the relation to another is the substance in addition we indicated
3:58:01little before that even if absolute names seem most of all to reveal some reference they too do
3:58:07not communicate the substance itself but delineate certain distinguishing marks in connection with it
3:58:12it's important to note a few things in this quote first this last mention of the distinguishing
3:58:16marks this is translating idiom so an idiom is a certain property that distinguishes the
3:58:22persons hypothetically so really what St basil is saying here is quite technical he's stating that
3:58:28relations indicate the personal properties it's also important to note that in the Greek text
3:58:33he used a very technical phrase prostipos now this phrase is the same phrase that's used by Aristotle
3:58:39in his categories so he's explicitly drawing from the technical language of philosophy the same
3:58:45technical language of philosophy that a St thomas or a St augustine is going to be drawing from in
3:58:50order to state the notion of relation it's also interesting to see that later in the same work he
3:58:55notes that relations do not designate perfections which is uh a toistic W over the Suarezians by the
3:59:02way he further goes on to repeat the same thing later quote indeed it is clear to anyone who
3:59:08examines these names I mean father and son that they do not in their proper and primary sense
3:59:13naturally give rise to the notion of corporeal passions on the contrary when they are said by
3:59:18themselves they indicate only their relation to one another the father is he who provides
3:59:23to another the beginning of being in a nature similar to his own whereas the son is he who
3:59:28has the beginning of his being from another in a begotten way end quote and to crown this fantastic
3:59:34book St basil actually goes on not only to say relation he also goes on to say opposition that
3:59:41it's the contriity that results the distinction of the persons he covers this in a very lengthy
3:59:47section from sections 25 to 28 and what makes this even better is that actually in this section
3:59:53he gives a reference to Aristotle by name and he states that this opposition cannot be of substance
4:00:00because Aristotle said that was impossible but must be of relation he says quote upon hearing
4:00:06unbegotten light we think of the father whereas upon hearing begotten light we receive the notion
4:00:11of the son in so far as they are light and light no contriity exists between them but in so far as
4:00:17they are begotten and unbegotten one observes the opposition between them this is something that he
4:00:22frequently brings up against Unomius throughout the entire work for example in 118 he rebukes for
4:00:28quote transferring this opposition to the very substance of the father and the son end quote he
4:00:32also does this later in book two section 16 second St gregory of Nissa and there's a lot here if
4:00:38you want to look through his contraomian uh be my guest i just gave a few examples first in book one
4:00:43he actually distinguishes clearly between absolute relative names stating that the goodness strength
4:00:48wisdom etc of the trinity is quote not such owing to any relation whatever but considered in itself
4:00:54escapes limitation end quote that is it's an absolute name it goes on further to say quote
4:01:00"The reason for this invention of new words I take to be manifest to everyone namely that everyone
4:01:06when the words father and son are spoken at once recognizes the proper and natural relationship to
4:01:11one another which they imply this relationship is conveyed at once by the appellations themselves
4:01:17to prevent it being understood of the father and the only begotten he robs us of this idea of
4:01:22relationship which enters the ear along with the words and abandoning the inspired terms expounds
4:01:27the faith by means of others devised to enter the truth end quote what St gregor of Nissa
4:01:31is referring to is actually what St basil was implicitly referring to earlier is that Unomius
4:01:37has changed the entire trinitarian grammar that we have in order to strip it of relative terms
4:01:43so really it's a Unomian error to say that there's no relations in God and only predicates are
4:01:49absolute and substantive this is why they didn't like speaking of father and son but really spoke
4:01:54only in terms of the unbegotten this is not an insignificant point in book one but rather
4:02:00his entire argument rests on the idea of the distinction between absolute and relative terms
4:02:05that the persons are united by the absolute and distinguished by the relative quote "Having heard
4:02:11of father and son from the truth we are taught in these two subjects the oneness of their nature
4:02:17their natural relations to each other expressed by those names indicates that nature." End quote
4:02:23he goes on further to explicitly employ the same distinction as St basel in section 38 saying quote
4:02:28it is one that all must be familiar with even mere children who are being introduced under a
4:02:32grammar tutor to the study of words who I say does not know that some nouns are absolute and out of
4:02:37all relation others express some relation this of course is exactly what we see in St augustine
4:02:43but what's more important here is that as I said before there's actually some sort of technical
4:02:49thing that is being expressed when they're using terms like absolute and relative it is something
4:02:53that they all learned when they were in school it is something that would be so obvious to any
4:02:58of these fathers who are writing yet apparently this is just a Latin innovation now this was just
4:03:04book one there are 11 other books so if any of you want to go through these books and to cite similar
4:03:10instances be my guest but I do not want this video to go on forever anyways the third author is St
4:03:16gregory of Nazanzus he was one of the capidosians and most of his work was done in orations there's
4:03:22an important moment in his third oration when he is given a objection and this objection is
4:03:28the question of what kind of name father is is it a name of essence or is a name of action and this
4:03:35is a dichotomy because if he chooses essence or if he chooses action he is going to deny the orthodox
4:03:41doctrine of the trinity so rather than accept either one of the horns of the dilemma he proposes
4:03:46a tertium quit he says quote "We may dispense with both alternatives and state a third and
4:03:52truer one father is not a name which designates either an essence or an action oh mighty sages
4:03:58it is a name of the relation in which the father stands to the son and the son to the father for
4:04:03just as with us humans these names father and son make known a genuine and intimate relation
4:04:08so in the case before us now they designate an identity of nature between the one who is begun
4:04:13and the one who begets this idea that father is a relative name and that son is a relative name is
4:04:20just simply the universal teaching of the fathers anytime they treat this question they say it's
4:04:25relative it signifies the relation further if you look into the fourth theological oration section
4:04:3118 he goes over the distinction between absolute and relative names as a grammatical point just
4:04:38as was brought up by St gregory of Nissa then in the fifth theological arration he says that these
4:04:44relations are what distinguish the persons he says quote the difference of their mutual relations to
4:04:49each other has caused the difference of their names end quote and he makes the same point
4:04:53in other errations ination 20 he says that causal relations distinguish the persons and
4:04:58then ination 23 he defines the trinity in terms of relation saying quote trinity is a comprehensive
4:05:04relationship between equals who are held in equal honor the term unites in one word members that are
4:05:10one by nature and does not allow things that are indivisible to suffer fragmentation when
4:05:15their number is divided end quote next we have St epipanius who employed relation in order to
4:05:20refute the semi-arens he states quote but besides the phrase father and son denotes a relation to
4:05:26something thus even if we name only a father we have the notion of son included in the term
4:05:32father for father means father of a son and even though we only name a son we have the notion of
4:05:38the father for son means a son of a father each is linked with the other and the connection cannot
4:05:44be broken indeed either of them mentioned alone implies the notion of the other and not only the
4:05:49name but with the name the natural relationship in understanding God to be father we understand
4:05:55him to be father of God and in understanding a son of God to be God we understand the said
4:06:02son of God to be of like nature with him whose son he is understood to be so notice now that
4:06:07we're familiar with the notes of relation these notes are being explicitly employed when they're
4:06:12writing in trinitarian theology next we have another important author St sierel of Alexandria
4:06:18who frequently employed this notion of relation against his opponents in his commentary on John
4:06:24his thesaurus and his dialogues on the trinity unfortunately I can only give a few citations
4:06:29from his works he lays the groundwork for this early in his theological career in writing on
4:06:34the gospel of John book one he states quote "If the son is also the father what reason is there
4:06:39for the distinction of names for if he did not generate at all why is he called father and how
4:06:44can he be son at all if he was not begotten by the father for the names necessarily imply such
4:06:50an understanding upon themselves but since the divine scriptures declare the son is begotten
4:06:55and the truth is indeed so he therefore subsists by himself and again the father is uniquely the
4:07:00father if indeed one is recognized from the other that which is begotten in relation to that which
4:07:06begets end quote so again notes of relation are being employed and is explicitly stating relation
4:07:12further in book three he begins to discourse on the personal idioms contemplating how the persons
4:07:17can be distinct even while being one in essence he states that this is possible quote through an
4:07:22inseparable relation the place where he begins to discuss this in more detail is in his thesaurus
4:07:27first he uses the natural simultaneity of their relations in order to establish the eternity
4:07:32of the son quote "If the Christ fighters think that they are doing a great favor to God by not
4:07:36acknowledging him as father from the beginning but granting him to be God let them hear that they are
4:07:42greatly insulting him depriving the divine nature of something more valuable for God has a relation
4:07:48to his servants and to those whose essence is created but he is father in relation to the son
4:07:54therefore by saying that he was God from the beginning but not yet father they tribute to
4:07:58God a relation to his servants depriving him of the greater title for it is better to be the
4:08:03father of a begotten son and as much as the son differs from a creation end quote he expands on
4:08:09this quote the relational nature of the names signifies each other through the other bearing
4:08:15mutual knowledge thus if someone knows the right hand through it they would also know the left and
4:08:20vice versa therefore the name father is relational and likewise the name son he who denies the father
4:08:25denies the son and he who denies the son does not have the father rightly and truly so for if
4:08:31there were no father who by nature has begotten one would not acknowledge the existence of the
4:08:35son for the son exists because he is begotten and if there is no son as one who is begotten
4:08:41there would not be a father according to the proper and consequent understanding the father
4:08:45exists because he has begotten end quote back to the thesaurus he makes the same distinction
4:08:49between the absolute relative names mentioned above quote we see many names attributed to God
4:08:55but each of them does not signify what God is in essence rather it either indicates what he
4:09:00is not or signifies some relation to something distinct for example incorruptible and immortal
4:09:05indicate what he is not father or unbegotten signifies that he is the begetter in relation
4:09:10to the son who is distinguished from him and that he was not begotten but each of these does not
4:09:16signify the essence as we've already mentioned but signifies something concerning the essence
4:09:20there's also a lot from St maximus the confessor but I left this out next is St john of Damascus
4:09:25what is interesting about St john of Damascus is that he has a work called the philosophical
4:09:29chapters so in the philosophical chapters he does something very unique it's kind of
4:09:34a systematic treatment of philosophy but it's a systematic treatment of philosophy for theology
4:09:39so he's really meant to explain philosophy in order to understand a lot of the debates that
4:09:44were happening so when he's discussing relation he's explicitly discussing relation as it is used
4:09:49by the previous fathers and in order to understand something like the trinity in chapter 50 is quite
4:09:55clear to note that the relationship between a father and the son is between that which causes
4:10:00and that which is caused but he goes on further to detail this quote proper to relatives is the
4:10:05fact that they may be affirmed convertibly thus a friend is a friend of a friend and the second
4:10:10is a friend of the first a teacher is a teacher of a pupil and a pupil is a pupil of a teacher it is
4:10:16also proper to relatives that they go naturally together going naturally together means positing
4:10:21and being posited together removing and being removed together thus when there is a father
4:10:26there will definitely be a son and when there is no father there will be no son for of whom would
4:10:31a son be if there was no father he who does not have a son will not be a father and so the son
4:10:36is taken away when the father is and the father is taken away when the son is end quote this is
4:10:42going to be important for his explicit treatment of trinitarian names since he will refer back to
4:10:46the same principle thus in on the orthodox faith book 1 chapter 8 he states quote the father never
4:10:52was when the son was not but the father and the son begotten of him exist together simultaneously
4:10:57because the father cannot be so called without a son now if he was not father when he did not have
4:11:02the son and then later became father without having been father before then he was changed
4:11:07from not being father to being father which is the worst of all blasphemies later in book 3 chapter 7
4:11:13he states that quote we say then that the divine person of God the word exists before all things
4:11:17timelessly and eternally simple and uncompounded uncreated and incorporeal invisible intangible and
4:11:24uncircumscribed and we say that it has all things that the father has since it is consubstantial
4:11:30with him and that it differs from the person of the father by the manner of its begetting and
4:11:35by relation that it is perfect never leaves the person of the father end quote further in chapter
4:11:4021 he states quote one must furthermore know that we can by no means call him surviile because the
4:11:45name servitude and mastery are not indicative of nature but of relationships just as paternity and
4:11:51affiliation are these lasts do not belong to the essence but are indications of relation
4:11:56end quote in another work called the exposition and declaration of the faith he states quote with
4:12:02regard to the Holy Trinity the matter does not stand so for the essences are not divided neither
4:12:07by place nor by time nor by will nor by efficiency nor by anything that denotes in us a distinction
4:12:13of persons in a multiplication of created things but this only happens by relation of one to
4:12:18another and according to the mode of existence as we said above for the father is without beginning
4:12:24the son is from the father by affiliation the holy spirit is from the father through the son not by
4:12:29affiliation but by procession end quote now that we have everything from the Greek fathers we can
4:12:33move on to the Latin fathers i already mentioned saints Hillary and Ambrose above so I will be
4:12:38starting with St augustine due to his power of synthesis on this question the main place where he
4:12:43discusses this is Dronitate book 5 now Desernitate book 5 is literally an entire book that would take
4:12:50me over an hour to read that is simply treating the idea of relation the entire book is just about
4:12:56relative names in the trinity so if you want to read where he discussed this question in full you
4:13:01can just go there i'm not going to read the whole thing but what is interesting to note is that
4:13:05a lot of the points that he makes he shares with the Capidosian fathers and their works against the
4:13:10Unomians he also discusses this ex-p profofessor in another place in on the city of God he writes
4:13:16quote "There is accordingly a good which alone is simple and therefore alone unchangeable this is
4:13:21God by this good have all others been created but not simple and therefore not unchangeable
4:13:27created I say that is made not begotten from that which is begotten of the simple good is
4:13:32simple in itself and the same as itself these two we call the father and the son and both together
4:13:39with the holy spirit are one god this trinity is one god and nonetheless simple because a trinity
4:13:45for we do not say that the nature of the good is simple because the father alone possesses it or
4:13:49the son alone or the holy ghost alone nor do we say with the seellian heretics that it is only
4:13:55nominally a trinity and has no real distinction of persons we say that it is simple because it is
4:14:01what it has with the exception of the relation of the persons one to another for in regard to
4:14:08this relation it is true that the father has a son and yet is not himself the son and the son
4:14:14has a father and is not himself the father but as regards himself irrespective of relation to the
4:14:19other each is what he has thus he is in himself living for he has life and is himself the life
4:14:26which he has end quote next we see this also in the many works of St fentius against the Aryans
4:14:32he explains this at length in epistle 14 quote "Whoever attempts to assert this as an objection
4:14:38if his belief conforms to what he is saying and holds in his conscience what he expresses with
4:14:44his tongue he is not paying enough attention to the fact that these names are without a doubt
4:14:49relative in any such relative name it is certain that one person is meant in itself in such a way
4:14:55that henceforward it is referred to another person not only in those things which are the same just
4:15:02as brother is spoken of in relation to brother friend to friend neighbor to neighbor but also in
4:15:07those things which are different just as father is spoken of in relation to the son son to father beg
4:15:12to begotten begotten to be with any of these names two persons are normally to be understood and as a
4:15:18quick note he is actually explicitly discussing relations of opposition here but let's continue
4:15:23for in these names one person is not spoken of in the singular in such a way that by its very name
4:15:29it is not referred to another for by relative name any person is spoken of in itself in such
4:15:34a way that it is not spoken of in relation to itself only therefore to declare the evidence
4:15:40of inseparability that one in the true divinity willed to be named in an incommunicable fashion
4:15:45in the individual persons in such a way that one person could not be understood without the other
4:15:50for when the fathers referred to the son or the son to the father even though the individual names
4:15:54can fit only individual persons and what is proper to the persons altogether refuses the communion of
4:16:00those two names still the father is not recognized without the son nor is the son without the father
4:16:05for that relation of a personal name forbids that the persons be separated which even when it
4:16:10does not name them at the same time it makes them known at the same time no one could hear any one
4:16:15of these names without being forced to understand the other as well end quote yet it wasn't until
4:16:20our next father St botheus that this doctrine gets developed even further for St botheus was
4:16:27as I mentioned above bilingual he knew Latin and Greek and he was a philosopher by trade so he read
4:16:33a lot of the peripotic commentators especially on the categories which he himself commented on so
4:16:39he has a very specific notion of relation which he employs when dealing with the trinity in his work
4:16:44on the trinity the whole purpose is to discuss how god can be three in one and he explicitly invokes
4:16:50the difference between substantial and relative predicates in order to determine this question i
4:16:56would suggest reading the whole work for yourself but I'll give the conclusion quote trinity is
4:17:00secured through the category of relation and unity is maintained through the fact there's no
4:17:04difference of substance or operation or generally of any substantial predicate so then the divine
4:17:10substance preserves the unity the divine relations bring about the trinity end quote yet just like
4:17:15St augustine this work is much more extensive so I would recommend that you read this on your own
4:17:20next we have the capstone of the Latin fathers St isidor he writes quote for this trinity some names
4:17:26are appelative and some are proper the proper ones name the essence such as God lord almighty
4:17:33immutable immortal these are proper because they signify the very substance by which the three are
4:17:38one but appelative names are father and son and holy spirit unbegotten and begotten and preceding
4:17:44these names are also relational or relative because they have reference to one another
4:17:49when one says God that is the essence because he is being named with respect to himself when
4:17:55one says father and son and holy spirit these names are spoken of relationally because they
4:18:00have reference to one another we say father not with respect to himself with respect to
4:18:05his relation to the son because he has a son likewise we speak of son relationally because
4:18:10he has a father and so holy spirit because it is the spirit of the father and the son
4:18:15the relationship is signified by these appelative names because they have reference to one another
4:18:21for the substance itself in which the three are one is not thus signified hence the trinity exists
4:18:26in the relational names of persons deity is not tripled but exists in singleness for if it were
4:18:33tripled we would introduce a plurality of gods end quote and to conclude this entire survey
4:18:38I actually wanted to bring forth a magisterial document from the petristic era the 11th council
4:18:42of Toledo which was received into the West and Papy approved quote "Although we profess three
4:18:48persons we do not profess three substances but one substance in three persons for the Father is
4:18:54father not with respect to himself but to the Son and the Son is Son not to himself but in relation
4:18:59to the Father and likewise the Holy Spirit is not referred to himself but is referred to the father
4:19:04and the son in as much as he is called spirit of the father and the son so when we say God this
4:19:10does not express a relationship to another as of the father to the son or of the son to the
4:19:15father or of the holy spirit to the father and the son but God refers to himself only this holy
4:19:21trinity which is the one true God is not without number yet it is not comprised by number because
4:19:28in the relationships of the persons there appears number but in the substance of the godhead nothing
4:19:33is comprised that could be counted therefore they imply number only in so far as they are mutually
4:19:39related and they lack number in so far as they are by themselves at say for this holy trinity
4:19:44has so much one name referring to its nature that it cannot be used in the plural with relation to
4:19:50the three persons end quote anyways I hope all of you enjoyed this video remember to like subscribe
4:19:55comment your thoughts and if you really like this video become a patron at patreon.com/millitis
4:20:00anyways God bless when it comes to the history of theology we basically been told one entire big
4:20:06fat lie about 19th century Catholic theology what the newbell theology have told us is that before
4:20:12the second Vatican council there was ahistorical scholasticism that didn't really care about the
4:20:18fathers and cared more so about logic chopping this just isn't the case we actually look into
4:20:2419th century theology we actually see that the opposite is the case in this video I wanted to
4:20:28introduce to you one of the greatest theologians of the 19th century Joseph Matias Shaban shaban
4:20:34was part of a group of theologians called the Collegio Romano theologians these theologians
4:20:39were known for combining together the history of scholastic theology in the medieval and Baroque
4:20:44eras and the historical research of the 19th century this is what makes this era of theology
4:20:50probably one of the most fruitful in the entire era of the church other famous representatives
4:20:55of the school include Cardinal Giovani Peron and Cardinal Johannes Baptist Franelin but in
4:21:01this video we're going to focus on Sheban because Sheban wrote a famous handbook of
4:21:04dogmatic theology in this handbook he draws very much from the Eastern fathers so his section on
4:21:10the filioquay is one of the best that I've ever read in it after going through the history of the
4:21:15controversy and the various different arguments that are classically given such as by Pavius he
4:21:20goes on to give nine different ways in which denying the filioquay actually destroys and
4:21:25tears apart the trinity grouping these into three different categories first that denying it tears
4:21:30apart and splits the trinity second that denying it confuses and destroys the unity of the Trinity
4:21:36third that denying it mutilates the Trinity he describes the first category as quote "The
4:21:42heresy of the schism tears apart and splits the Trinity one by one." The first way under this that
4:21:48he gives is quote it tears apart the unity of the immediate and direct union of the Holy Ghost with
4:21:53the Son since this can lie only in the relation of origin and at the same time makes the holy
4:21:59ghost no longer spirit of the son in particular not the son's own spirit in Catholic theology
4:22:05since the spirit proceeds from the sun there is an immediate relationship between the spirit and the
4:22:10sun not merely by essence but also by origination on the other hand for the fodians they do not have
4:22:15this immediate connection between the sun and the spirit thus replacing the union by origin and by
4:22:21procession that the Catholics posit that reposited by the church fathers with a lesser unity whether
4:22:27merely by essence or also by communication of energies the second way that he gives is quote
4:22:32it breaks up the unity of the perfect communion between father and son by dent of which the son
4:22:37must have everything in common with the father except fatherhood not only does this tear apart
4:22:42the union between the son and the spirit it also tears apart the union between the father and the
4:22:46son because in Catholic theology the father and the son are united in the fact that they are one
4:22:50principle of the spirit because by the beginning of the son the father has communicated the power
4:22:56of spiration to the son but for the fodians there is not this aspect of unity between the father and
4:23:01the son but only unity that follows from the beginning of the sun the third way he gives
4:23:06is that quote it splits the indivisible unity of the father in himself in that his character
4:23:11of spirator or probleas no longer appears to be contained in his fatherhood and founded their
4:23:17own but rather suddenly standing alongside his fatherhood must constitute a person just like the
4:23:23latter does and therefore two persons are made out of the father for the fodians the father's
4:23:28role as father and the father's role as spyrator of the spirit are completely disconnected from
4:23:33one another one is not founded upon the other or contained in the other the only relation that they
4:23:38have to one another is that they happen to be possessed by the same person on the other hand
4:23:43for Catholics there's an intimate relationship between these two processions in the father for
4:23:49the father gives the power of spiration to the son in the beginning of the son thus retaining a
4:23:54full unity between these two processions in the person of the father therefore the fodians not
4:23:58only split the son and the spirit but also the son and the father and even the father himself
4:24:04now she describes the second category as quote the heresy of the schism confuses and destroys
4:24:10the unity of the trinity as a whole end quote the first way he gives is quote it annihilates
4:24:15the fixed order in sequence by virtue of which the three persons form a continuous golden chain for
4:24:21Catholics the trinity forms a continuous golden chain the father begetting the son and then the
4:24:27father and the son spirating the spirit and this golden chain is actually something frequently
4:24:32reflected in petristic analogies an example of this can be the classical analogy between the root
4:24:37the branch and the fruit under this aspect we can see that the Catholic view not only has immediate
4:24:41union and order between the persons individually but also the trinity as a whole has a complete
4:24:47order between the first second and third persons on the other hand the Fodian view really only has
4:24:52one first person then two second persons without any sort of order between the second and the third
4:24:58person in the processions thus the Fodian view can be viewed as forming some sort of right angle with
4:25:03the father on top than the two processions down the side next to each other without any sort of
4:25:08order between them the second way that he gives is quote it destroys the organic union of the
4:25:13two trinitarian processions as it was so strongly emphasized precisely by the Greek fathers whereby
4:25:19they are interdependent in mesh one proceeding from the other and one aimed at the other in
4:25:25the Catholic view there is a mutual dependence between the two processions the beginning of
4:25:30the sun contains spiration of the spirit since the power to spirate is given to the sun in the
4:25:36beginning of the sun and then the beginning of the sun is for the sake of the spiration of the
4:25:41spirit on the other hand in the fodium view there is no interdependence between the two processions
4:25:45rather they simply stand next to each other not forming that golden chain that we see in Catholic
4:25:50trinitarian theology the third way he gives is quote above all it destroys the comprehensive
4:25:56concentation of the divine persons by virtue of which every single one being immediately related
4:26:02to the two others each in a particular way forms a connecting link for the two others thus the
4:26:08Greek fathers emphasize the middle position of the son between the father and the holy ghost
4:26:13in that the son by proceeding from the father causes the holy ghost to proceed from himself
4:26:18and thus through him the father enters into relation to the holy ghost and the holy ghost
4:26:22is united with the father through him the latin fathers in contrast emphasize chiefly that the
4:26:28holy ghost as the outpouring of their mutual love is the connecting link or the formal bond kiss or
4:26:34embrace between the father and the son end quote this one is a bit harder to understand so I will
4:26:39make it easy as I can the point is that in the Catholic view there is both union and there is
4:26:44also immediate relation for Catholics there's immediate relation between the father and the
4:26:50son and then the father and the spirit and also the son and the father and the son and the spirit
4:26:54and the spirit and the father and the spirit and the son and also the son is the union between the
4:26:59father and the spirit the spirit is the union between the father and the son in order to make
4:27:03this easier I will split this into a number of propositions first the father is immediately
4:27:07related to the son and that he beggets him and the spirit in that he spirates him second the son is
4:27:13immediately related to the father and that he is begotten of him and the spirit in that he spirates
4:27:18him third the spirit is immediately related to the father and that he proceeds from him and the son
4:27:23in that he proceeds from him yet we already went over these three points above rather the important
4:27:29part is that the father is the union of the son and the spirit the son the union of the father and
4:27:34the spirit and the spirit the union of the father and the son first the father is the unity of the
4:27:39spirit and the son since he is their ultimate f source and principle what the Greek fathers call
4:27:45the ita or cause second the son is the unity of the father and the spirit and that it is
4:27:51by or through the son that the father spirates the spirit in giving him the spirit of power
4:27:57this is why the Greek fathers refer to the son as the medium or means whereby the father spirates
4:28:02the spirit this is also why they generally use the language of through third the spirit is the unity
4:28:07of the father and the son and that they come together to spirate him and he is the fruit of
4:28:12their union this is something more emphasized in the augustinian tradition for the Fodians while
4:28:17the father certainly can be said to be the union of the spirit and the son the son certainly can't
4:28:22be the union of the father and the spirit nor the spirit the union of the father and the son he
4:28:28describes the third category as quote the heresy of the schism mutilates the trinity one by one
4:28:33and as a whole the first way in relation to the father is that quote the father is perfect father
4:28:38only when he can and does give the son through begetting everything that he himself possesses and
4:28:44consequently gives him also all the fruitfulness that is compatible with the hypothatic character
4:28:49of the son in the Catholic view the father is a most perfect father because he gives everything
4:28:54that he can to the son now obviously paternity is something that he can't give since something
4:29:00cannot be get itself but in the fodium view the father holds something back from the son that
4:29:05he could give to the son that is the power to spirate the spirit the second way in relation
4:29:10to the son is that quote the son is a perfect son only when he is similar and equal to the father
4:29:15and the spiration also and when in particular the spirit of the father is his spirit too precisely
4:29:21by dent of his generation from the father and is not communicated to him only through the second
4:29:26act of the father end quote this follows naturally from the relationship between a father and the
4:29:31son a son is like his father and has some sort of similarity to his father now the father is father
4:29:37because he is the principle of the son therefore if the son is like the father the son also will
4:29:42be principle of another person on the other hand in the fodium view the son is like the father only
4:29:47because the son shares the same essence as the father thus there is no more reason why the son is
4:29:52called the son than the spirit is called the son since they both share the same essence with the
4:29:58father the third way in relation to the spirit is that quote the holy ghost however is conceivable
4:30:04not only as perfect spirit but also generally as a particular person only because the son is related
4:30:10to him as his principle for one it is an axiom already adopted by the church fathers that all
4:30:16personal distinctions in God are only established through origins and also can be asserted only
4:30:22between principle and product two in God no distinction is conceivable that did not at the
4:30:27same time include the most intimate most immediate union of those who are distinguished and three
4:30:33indeed since according to the Greek fathers the father brings forth the holy ghost only through
4:30:38the son not alongside the son the holy ghost would not emerge from the son but rather would
4:30:44remain one with him if the son did not cause him to proceed from him." End quote let's unpack this
4:30:50last reason one by one first personal distinction in the godhead flows from origin thus without a
4:30:56relationship of origin between the spirit and the son there would be no personal distinction
4:31:01to read more about this check out St thomas's suma primapar's question 36 article 2 on the other hand
4:31:07in the orthodox view there would have to be a personal distinction between the son and the
4:31:12spirit that does not depend upon origin upon their procession but upon something completely different
4:31:18second in God anytime there is distinction there's also united it's this distinction a most intimate
4:31:24union thus it is only by a procession which unites father and son that there is a distinction between
4:31:30father and son yet in the fodium view there is a distinction that occurs that is a distinction
4:31:35between the son and spirit which does not follow this pattern of maximal unity since
4:31:41there is no immediate union between the son and the spirit third on the other hand since personal
4:31:47distinction flows from origin where one tries to make it without such origination the distinction
4:31:53completely collapses there's actually an analogy in the godhead for what would happen the father
4:31:58has two relations one to the son and the other to the spirit yet due to the fact that there is no
4:32:04opposition between these relations by procession there's still only one person of the father if
4:32:09the son and the spirit were both related to the father and not opposed to each other they would
4:32:14collapse into one person just as the father is one person i hope you guys enjoyed this video
4:32:19if you really enjoyed it and would like to support me please go to patreon.com/millingtonist and
4:32:23become a patron each week I have a bonus stream where I talk about a random topic that I usually
4:32:27wouldn't cover in public anyways as always God bless let's be honest you probably have a very
4:32:33difficult time understanding the doctrine of the trinity much of the discourse about the Trinity
4:32:40that has taken place in online communities have basically amounted to different types of debates
4:32:46between trinitarians and anti-trinitarians most of it is centered around refuting specific arguments
4:32:53or maybe showing that the Trinity is actually from scripture but this discourse is completely
4:33:00impoverished and one of the areas that are most vital to understanding the trinity never even
4:33:06gets spoken about in this area is the question of what a relation is ever since the Aryan crisis the
4:33:14idea of a relation has always been invoked by the defenders of the Trinity yet it seems like nobody
4:33:20talks about what a relation is today and for some figures even speaking about relations are anathema
4:33:27while in the past I've done videos on certain figures like St augustine St sirill St basil and
4:33:35St botheus and how they used relation in order to defeat the heretics of their day and I also did a
4:33:41video on relation and how it proves the Trinity i've never actually done a standalone video
4:33:46on relation what relation is and actually how relation is the key to understanding the Trinity
4:33:52and I thought it was time for me to do a standalone video on relation in order to
4:33:57understand what relation is let's go all the way back to the beginning of discourse on this topic
4:34:02which is found in Aristotle aristotle's comments on relation which are found in categories 7 is
4:34:09actually one of the texts that the fathers very frequently go to when they're discussing
4:34:13the trinity whether explicitly or implicitly the reason that this text becomes so important
4:34:18is because this was actually one of the few texts along with on interpretation that were
4:34:23widely available to fathers both east and west for example St augustine writes about reading
4:34:29the categories when he was a young man quote "When scarce 20 years old a book of Aristotle
4:34:34entitled the 10 categories fell into my hands on whose very name I hung as on something great and
4:34:40divine when my rhetoric master of Carthage and others who were esteemed learned referred to
4:34:46it with cheeks swelling with pride I read it alone and understood it and on my conferring
4:34:51with others who said that with the assistance of very able masters who not only explained it
4:34:56orally but drew many things in the dust they scarcely understood it and could tell me no
4:35:01more about it than I had acquired in reading it by myself alone and the book appeared to me to
4:35:07speak plainly enough of substances such as man is and of their qualities such as the figure of man
4:35:12of what kind it is and his stature how many feet high and his relationship whose brother he is or
4:35:19where placed or where born or where he stands or sits or is shaw or armed or does or suffers
4:35:25anything and whatever innumerable things might be classed under these nine categories of which I've
4:35:30given some examples or under the chief category of substance end quote in this work Aristotle intends
4:35:37to lay out the 10 different categories which encompass everything that we could say about
4:35:42something and therefore everything that is true so for example if I say this is a dog I'm signifying
4:35:48the category of substance but there are actually many other things I could predicate of this dog
4:35:53such as the dog is white the dog is large the dog is small and so on and so forth and these
4:35:59others constitute nine other categories which are commonly known as the nine accidents let's say I
4:36:05say the dog is brown by predicating brown to the dog I'm predicating a certain quality or if I say
4:36:12the dog is 25 lb by predicating 25 lb to the dog I'm predicating a certain quantity and so on and
4:36:18so forth now I could keep going on but you get the idea so what distinguishes this category of
4:36:24substance from the nine categories of accidents while substances are apt to exist in themselves
4:36:31but on the other hand accidents are apt to exist in another so the brownness is the brownness of a
4:36:37dog or the 25 lbness is the 25 lbness of a dog these are things which exist in something else
4:36:46you can't speak abstractly of brownness except obviously as an idea in the intellect and the
4:36:51same thing with a certain size like 25 lb when it comes to an accident an accident is always
4:36:58predicated of a substance this actually indicates that there is a two-fold nature to an accident on
4:37:04the one hand there is what's called the in essay of an accident the fact that it exists in another
4:37:10thing and then there's also the ratio of an accident which basically indicates the formal
4:37:15aspect so what makes it an accident which is its in essay and then what makes it a certain type of
4:37:21accident which is draatopropria it is important to note that these are not two separate parts
4:37:25of an accident but rather they're two different aspects of the same accident you can think about
4:37:30it like two sides of the same coin so when we think about something like quality and we think
4:37:35about something like quantity they both have an essay they both exist in something and therefore
4:37:41are accidents but on the other hand their properio are different let's take something like quantity
4:37:47the fact that quantity exists in something else does not make it quantity rather the fact that
4:37:52it exists in something else makes it an accident but the very way in which it modifies substance
4:37:58by extending it in space that's what makes it quantity so that's the ratio of quantity but the
4:38:04in essay merely makes it an accident so here we have the two-fold aspect of accident so I told you
4:38:11guys that this was a video about relation i keep yapping about substance and accident and quantity
4:38:17and quality in an essay and all of this stuff but you guys just want to know about relation so what
4:38:23is a relation well first relation is one of the 10 categories obviously it's not substance so
4:38:31it's one of the nine accidents so relation is one of the nine categories that has an essay now what
4:38:38distinguishes it from the others what is its ratio well rachioropria is the fact that it indicates
4:38:46some sort of order to another here we're able to distinguish the two-fold aspect of a relation in
4:38:52so far as it has an essay or we usually say essay in it is an accident but in so far as it has some
4:38:59sort of order to another we can say that it is relation so when we look at other accidents like
4:39:05quantity quality action and the like all of these have essay in this is completely correct but none
4:39:14of those have essay odd because essay odd is the ratio of an accident now as I said before I need
4:39:22to emphasize again essay in and essay odd are not two different separate parts to an accident or
4:39:29anything like that these are two different aspects of an accident it's like two sides of the same
4:39:34coin this is going to be extremely important later so you guys need to remember this okay
4:39:39but in the meantime let's make this a little bit less abstract and look at some concrete examples
4:39:45a mother is the mother of a son and a son is the son of a mother the mother has the relationship
4:39:51of maternity to the son the son has the relation of affiliation to the mother or we could look at
4:39:58relations of quantity the 50 lb dog is twice the size of the 25lb dog and the 25 lb dog is
4:40:05half the size of the 50 lb dog both of these are relations now there's something important
4:40:10to notice when I'm giving these examples when it comes to both of these examples the relation isn't
4:40:16between two things usually we think of relation as we would relationship so when we think about
4:40:23a marriage the relationship between the two is a single relationship but this is not how
4:40:30the ancients thought of relation rather relation exists in a certain subject towards another so if
4:40:37we thought about a married couple there would be two relations the relation of the husband to the
4:40:41wife and the relation of the wife to the husband and this would form what we would call marriage
4:40:46so relation exists in one subject not in two subjects that's very important but since relations
4:40:52are co-relative in most cases when you have the relationship in one you have the relationship
4:40:58in the other so you can't have the husband of a wife without the wife of a husband but it's
4:41:04very important to remember that this isn't one relation this is two relations okay from this
4:41:10we're actually able to indicate what all of the different aspects to a relation are first there is
4:41:16the subject of a relation obviously since relation is an accident relation is going to be predicated
4:41:22of something so when we think about the father being the father of the son father is the subject
4:41:29of the relation father has the relation remember it's not between two it's of one to another second
4:41:36we have the foundation for the relation there needs to be some sort of action which is going
4:41:41to establish the relation or in some cases like we saw above technically we could have quantity which
4:41:47establishes the relation so the dog which is 50 lb and double the size of the 25-lb dog quantity
4:41:54establishes this relation but for our purposes we're going to think about action so when we have
4:41:59the father of a son the beginning of the son is the foundation which establishes the relation of
4:42:05father to son and third we have the terminus of the relation so the terminus of the relation is
4:42:12going to be what the subject is related to so in our example father of the son father is subject
4:42:19beginning is action or foundation and son is the terminus of the relation so now that we have all
4:42:26of the natural philosophy stuff out of the way we're thinking about what relation is what are
4:42:31the different aspects of relation what is the formal aspect the raopropria of relation what
4:42:38are the other categories everything like that now that we have all of this out of the way we
4:42:43can finally look at how relation could possibly be predicated of God the 13th century Dominican
4:42:49and common doctor of the Catholic Church St thomas Aquinus was able to outline this problem extremely
4:42:56well in Isuma theologia so it's going to be that very order that I'm going to follow in
4:43:01the remainder of this video now I want to make something clear before I begin i am not trying
4:43:06to demonstrate the existence of the Trinity from reason to demonstrate the existence of
4:43:12the Trinity from reason is heretical it has been condemned by the church on numerous occasions so
4:43:18I'm not trying to do that rather what I am doing is on the supposition that there is revelation I'm
4:43:26showing that what is revealed is coherent amongst itself i am merely explaining what the teaching
4:43:32of revelation is what is a teaching of scripture as interpreted by the tradition and handed down
4:43:38by the church that is all that I'm doing here okay none of you guys should try to use what
4:43:43I'm about to say as a demonstrative argument for the trinity st thomas says don't do this
4:43:49catholic churches don't do this now I did a video on this and I wrote an academia paper on this so
4:43:53if you want to know more about why we can't prove the trinity from natural reason you can read those
4:43:59but here I am merely providing an explanation and some sort of natural congruence for the teaching
4:44:05on the trinity now let's get back to seeing how relation can be predicated of God because
4:44:10as we went over above there are three aspects to a relation there is the subject there's the terminus
4:44:17and there's the foundation so obviously if we wanted to discuss the persons and the persons
4:44:23are based on the relations we're going to want to start out with the foundation so we're going to
4:44:28start with foundation and then we're going to go to relation and then we're going to go to persons
4:44:33this is exactly what St thomas does in question 27 he looks at the foundation and the foundation is
4:44:39some sort of act which is procession question 28 he looks at real relations and in question
4:44:4529 and following he looks at personhood this is very important starting with the foundation as we
4:44:52covered above there are two possible foundations for a real relation on the one hand it can be
4:44:58quantity and on the other hand it can be a certain action now we know that God obviously does not
4:45:03have quantity because quantity is necessarily going to be in reference to some sort of extension
4:45:08and obviously God isn't somehow extended further quantity follows upon the material aspect of
4:45:14something and there is no material aspect of God so obviously we're not going to be able to found
4:45:20relation on that but can we found it on action so in order to consider whether it can be found on
4:45:26action we need to look at the two types of action that an agent can have on the one hand action can
4:45:33be transient transient action is action that goes outside of the agent so for example if I pick up
4:45:39a ball and throw it that is transient action now obviously transient action cannot be what we're
4:45:45looking for because nothing that is outside of God can be God that would be ridiculous but on the
4:45:53other hand we can actually look at imminent action so imminent action is action that happens within
4:45:58the agent and its terminus does not pass outside of the agent so for example thinking and willing
4:46:04when I think and I will and I keep it within myself that is an imminent action so possibly when
4:46:11we're thinking about a relation in God if there were such a relation we should be looking not at
4:46:18quantity that's impossible not at transient action that's impossible but only at imminent action
4:46:24we've considered all of the possibilities so the only one left is going to be imminent action
4:46:30now we're able to narrow the question down a lot rather than simply asking is there relation in God
4:46:35or is there some sort of foundation for relation we're able to ask the particular question is
4:46:40there something in God which could provide the foundation for relation in being an imminent act
4:46:46now does God have imminent acts it's a great question well God has two faculties which are
4:46:53capable for imminent acts god has an intellect and God has a will so he has these two faculties which
4:47:00are able to produce its termini or its product if you want to put it like that inside the agent
4:47:06rather than outside of the agent so we can ask the question does the intellect and does the will
4:47:13produce such a thing now when it comes to these actions we actually see something very interesting
4:47:19when we consider intellects we see that intellects are very fruitful intellects actually
4:47:25in understanding something produce a concept or we sometimes call it an interior word so for example
4:47:32if I'm looking at a cup and I'm considering cupness a little cup is produced by my intellect
4:47:38so I can know the cup through that thing this is called an intentional image or concept or word
4:47:44any one of those uh ideas can be used to describe this but whatever it is we know that our intellect
4:47:51is fruitful our intellect produces things within us now we can actually go even further than this
4:47:57when we consider not something outside of us but we consider our very selves we actually produce
4:48:03an intentional image of our self within us we produce a concept or word of oursel within us we
4:48:09actually produce a little accidental self within our intellects yet as I said this is accidental
4:48:16my intellect is imperfect my intellect is limited so anything that my intellect produces is merely
4:48:22going to be an image or shadow of the reality it's obviously not going to be the reality itself
4:48:28i can't just think of a cup and then produce a real cup in my intellect it's not how it works but
4:48:34things work slightly differently when we consider God god doesn't need to produce these concepts
4:48:41in his intellect in order to understand things god in his eminence in his perfection contains
4:48:47all things within himself in a more perfect mode by the perfection of the divinity so God merely
4:48:54needs to gaze at himself and in knowing himself he can know all things but we ask that second
4:49:02question just like I can know the cup and produce the intentional image of the cup in my intellect
4:49:07and further I can know myself and produce the intentional image of myself in the intellect
4:49:13i can produce a little me in the intellect what would happen if God rather than simply
4:49:18considering created things in his own divinity he actually considered himself could there be a
4:49:25fruitful production of a word could there be this fruitful production of a concept could
4:49:32there be this infinite communication not merely of intentional being not merely of a word like
4:49:39in my intellect not merely of a shadow an image of the reality but God in his perfection rather than
4:49:45being limited like my intellect is could in the consideration of himself he actually communicate
4:49:50his divinity this communication wouldn't be like my intellect my intellect when I consider myself
4:49:56it's something limited it's something accidental something fleeting this is the divine intellect
4:50:02the divine intellect would not produce something accidental shadowy fleeing or anything like that
4:50:08it wouldn't merely communicate ate intentional being it would communicate the entirety of
4:50:14the deity it would produce a word that is not merely a representation of God it would produce
4:50:21a word that is God this according to Christian theology is the foundation for the relation this
4:50:28is the action that forms that foundation of the father to the word and of the word to the father
4:50:37for those who don't know word is another name for God the son yet there's not only one faculty in
4:50:44God god does not only have an intellect god also has a will and this will as in us produces love
4:50:53so if we go through the same process to where we consider something and we have this impulse of
4:50:59love within us and we consider this on the part of God there would be just as there is a word
4:51:06there would also be a spirit and this is what we refer to as the Holy Spirit so these two are the
4:51:13two actions that we found the divine relations on yet does this stay a mere action within God
4:51:20or does this actually produce a relationship between a subject and its terminus it would
4:51:25seem of course quite fitting that we think of this as actually producing some sort of terminus
4:51:32as actually including the production of a word and the production of a spirit but there are obviously
4:51:39some difficulties at hand it seems absolutely and utterly possible it actually might even seem
4:51:46absurd that we have this communication of the divinity this entire incomplete communication
4:51:52of the divinity and it result in real distinction we look at certain created examples for example
4:51:59a father who has the action of begetting which founds the relationship with a son it's very easy
4:52:05to think of these two as having relations one to the other why well because they're really distinct
4:52:12this one is really distinct by its matter and that one's really distinct by its matter they
4:52:17both have human nature but they have two different individualizations or particularizations of human
4:52:22nature so it's very easy for us to think about relations one to another but in God we don't have
4:52:30this material distinction or numerical distinction between two divinities rather we have the one same
4:52:38simple united divinity so how can we even speak of these two as distinct one to the other it makes
4:52:45no sense how can we even speak of this relation the solution to this problem is actually quite
4:52:51simple and it relies on what we discussed before concerning relation because if you remember there
4:52:57are two aspects to relation there's the essay in of relation and there's the essay odd of relation
4:53:04the essay odd is what forms the proper ratio of relation so in order for there to be a relation
4:53:12there simply needs to be this order to another well every accident has this two-fold aspect of
4:53:19the essay in in the properio relation is unique because when we look at all of the accidents
4:53:26besides relation not only does imperfection enter into its essay in but imperfection enters into its
4:53:33proper ratio so let's take for example quantity quantity involves the idea of materiality as we
4:53:41went over above or if we think about quality quality is going to somehow change the subject
4:53:48but relation's unique why is relation unique well relation doesn't somehow modify the subject rather
4:53:55relation involves simply an order to another so when it comes to all of the other accidents all
4:54:03of the other accidents are merely metaphorically applied to God but when it comes to relation while
4:54:11relation isn't predicated as an accident still its proper ratio can be retained so if we're able to
4:54:19show some sort of foundation such as the imminent acts above then it's perfectly rational to retain
4:54:26the essay odd of the relation and therefore its proper ratio this is why for the fathers there
4:54:33were only two proper predicates of god either terms were absolute or terms were relative
4:54:40anything else was somehow metaphorical or not said to be in God this is all going to become
4:54:47very very important in 1 second and we're going to completely resolve the objection but first
4:54:53in order for clarity sake let's go over what the first procession is and how the first procession
4:54:59has these two relations the first procession that we went over is the procession of intellect what
4:55:05does the procession of intellect involve because as we went over before unlike our modern use of
4:55:11the term relationship for these actions these actions found two relations the relation of the
4:55:16subject to its terminus and we can think of the terminus being related to the subject so when
4:55:21it comes to this action which is intellectual generation we're going to have the relation of
4:55:26paternity which is the relation of the father to the word and the relationship of affiliation
4:55:33which is the relation of the word to the father these are going to be the two relations which
4:55:38are brought forward but there's a difficulty because we said that there's numerically one
4:55:43divinity how can the father and the word be the self-same god be the self-same divinity have
4:55:52numerically the same attributes one holiness one goodness one love and so on and so forth
4:55:58how can we predicate this well it comes down to what we said above there is a two-fold aspect to
4:56:05relation the essay in and the essay odd we say that the father and the son share the same essay
4:56:14in which is going to cover things like existence love goodness ness divinity so on and so forth
4:56:22on the other hand we say that they are distinct in their essay odd this is where we're going to
4:56:28hit our intellectual limits because there never has been nor will there ever be an argument that
4:56:34this is impossible there is no argument which can conclude that this is impossible the essay in of
4:56:41two relations can be the same so the divinity can be the same and all that distinguishes
4:56:48these two are going to be by the essay odd there's no argument which can disprove this
4:56:56we've tried we've answered every objection that there is there is no argument against this now
4:57:03the issue that many of you are going to have is it's really hard to wrap your head around
4:57:08it's actually impossible to wrap your head around this you can't imagine it because you're so used
4:57:13to thinking in material and individual ways it's very hard to abstract but what you need to do is
4:57:21you can't follow your emotions or your feelings or your first impressions about something you have to
4:57:27do the hard intellectual work if you cannot see a contradiction then you cannot somehow exclude
4:57:34this necessarily so what is the contradiction guys what is the so-called impossibility for these two
4:57:41relations to have distinct essay odd but to share the same essay in where's the argument
4:57:49we've been trying for a very long time to give good arguments against our own positions it's
4:57:54actually what scholasticism is famous for but we've never been able to give an argument showing
4:57:59that this is impossible the fact that you can't wrap your mind around it or the fact that you
4:58:04can't visualize it does not mean that it's somehow untrue rather we need to be men we need to think
4:58:11with our minds think with our intellects we need to determine things on the basis of argumentation
4:58:18not on the basis of feelings and not on the basis of whether you can imagine something in your minds
4:58:25rather we can declare with confidence that there is no contradiction when it comes to
4:58:31this declaration of Catholic theology so this is going to be the peak right here of this entire
4:58:38video is that this distinction when it comes to relation the nature of relation in general is
4:58:45going to vindicate what we claim about the unity and the distinction of the persons as we went over
4:58:50above relation is special it does not somehow modify a subject rather it indicates the order
4:59:00of a subject to its terminus this is why we're allowed to say relative things of God in a proper
4:59:06way on the other hand when it comes to the other accidents they don't simply modify its order but
4:59:11they modify the subject itself and therefore this would be somehow repugnant to the divine
4:59:17simplicity and perfection so as weird as it sounds that the subject and the terminus of a relation
4:59:24have the same sa in it is actually not impossible and there never has been and there never will be
4:59:32an argument to show that this is impossible we need to be careful to remember that we
4:59:37ought not to follow our own limitations and our imagination or our passions or our prejudices
4:59:44when we do this type of theology this type of theology is hard it's difficult it's abstract
4:59:50it takes a lot of mental toil so we ought not to follow these passions or prejudices or they will
4:59:58always lead us down a bad path rather we need to purely follow where reason and revelation lead us
5:00:06and when you follow reason you see that there is no possible way to say that what we declare about
5:00:13relation it's two-fold aspect and its relation to the one single simple divinity is impossible we
5:00:22see that there is no way and there never has been an argument which declares this to be impossible
5:00:28this same of course is going to apply to the second procession the second procession which we
5:00:32call the procession of valition or the procession of love so we're going to have the father and the
5:00:38son as the subject of active spiration and the holy spirit of as the terminus and when it comes
5:00:44to passive spiration the spirit is going to be the subject and the father and the son are going
5:00:49to be the terminus of this relation and of course the relation on both sides has its foundation in
5:00:56the action which is the action of spiration finally we can invoke something called the
5:01:01relative opposition when it comes to any relation that we could ever give there's going to be a real
5:01:08distinction between the subject and the terminus if it is a real relation so by positing a real
5:01:14relation with a real foundation we are necessarily going to posit a real distinction so when it comes
5:01:21to the procession of the word and the procession of the spirit one which flows upon intellection
5:01:28and the other which flows upon distinction so when we look at the two processions we're going to see
5:01:34that if there is a real act which is present a real act of intellection or a real act of valition
5:01:42and these truly produce termini the one produces the word and the other produces the spirit and
5:01:49from this there is a real relation we're going to see that this real relation is necessarily
5:01:55going to lead to relative opposition and when you have this relative opposition which is the lack of
5:02:01identity between the subject and the terminus of a relation then necessarily we're going to posit
5:02:08distinction real distinction between the subject and the terminus therefore we can say that the
5:02:15father is really distinct from the son and the father and the son are really distinct from
5:02:22the spirit and this happens by way of relative opposition and this actually clarifies something
5:02:28for us because a lot of you might be thinking well there's two processions so from these two
5:02:33processions there must be four persons since as I said above when it comes to each one of these
5:02:39acts there's going to be relations on either side but what we see is that when it comes to active
5:02:45spiration the active spiration that is present in the father and the son there is no relative
5:02:50opposition between paternity and active spiration there is no relative opposition between phiation
5:02:57and active spiration therefore paternity in active aspiration and affiliation in active aspiration
5:03:03can exist in the same subject in the same way that you might have a teacher who teaches two
5:03:09students and therefore has these two relations yet it's not like he somehow doubles his teaching
5:03:15he only has one teaching in a similar way we can think about how intellection and valition produce
5:03:22really distinct termini because it would seem that since intellect and will are not really distinct
5:03:29in God due to divine simplicity that therefore they could not produce really distinct termini
5:03:36now this would actually be true if there was no relative opposition if there was no relative
5:03:42opposition between the terminus of intellection and the terminus of valition they would collapse
5:03:48into one now what does this prove well this proves that the terminus of intellection that is the sun
5:03:55or the word somehow is also the subject of active spiration because unless this was the case there
5:04:03would be no relative opposition between the word and the spirit it's only by this relative
5:04:08opposition that you're able to distinguish the termini of both processions and therefore this
5:04:14proves the Latin teaching on the filioquay but I did another video on this argument in particular
5:04:19so I would encourage if you want to know more about that to watch that video thus far we've
5:04:23established quite a few things let's go over them before we move on first we've established that a
5:04:28relation is one of the categories second we have established that relation has two aspects essay in
5:04:34and essay odd the latter of which is the proper ratio of a relation third we have established
5:04:40that due to the nature of essay odd that unlike the other categories relation can be properly
5:04:46predicated of God fourth we have established that there are three aspects of relation subject
5:04:52foundation and terminus fifth we have established that the only foundation for relation that could
5:04:58be predicated to God is action sixth we have established that there are two faculties that
5:05:03can act in such a way intellect and will seventh we have established that each of these processions
5:05:09will result in two relations thus there are four in God paternity affiliation active
5:05:14spiration and quasi passive spiration eighth we have established that there is nothing contrary
5:05:20for these four relations mentioned above to share the same essay in but to be distinct as to essay
5:05:25odd which properly constitutes relation ninth we have established that real relation necessarily
5:05:31leads us to concede real distinction but what else is there left for us to demonstrate it seems that
5:05:35we've went over everything well we actually just still need to demonstrate that the subject and
5:05:41the terminus of each one of these relations is going to be a person there's actually very much
5:05:46confusion on what it means to be a person what does it mean when we say that the trinity is one
5:05:52nature three persons what does this word person mean some heretics like William Lane Craig or
5:05:57others would like to pretend that person somehow indicates some sort of self-mastery of intellect
5:06:04and will and therefore when he posits three persons he's going to posit three intellects
5:06:09three wills he's going to posit three everything uh when it comes to the trinity and then kind of
5:06:15post hawk still claim that there is one God as I say the biblical data teach that there are exactly
5:06:21three persons father son and holy spirit who are properly called god and so those of us who are
5:06:28social trinitarians uh take this very seriously and literally that there are three centers of
5:06:33self-consciousness ah pain pain to my Latin soul my Latin blood courses hot through my [Music]
5:06:46veins pain it's pain it's such pain centers of consciousness who came up with that nonsense who
5:06:56came up with it who came up with that nonsense in essence anything that holds to threeness in
5:07:02God besides the threeness of relation is going to somehow multiply the essay in and if you multiply
5:07:10the SA you're going to multiply not what's relative in God and therefore multiply the persons
5:07:17but you're going to multiply what is absolute in God and therefore multiply the divinity so any
5:07:22other multiplication besides relation is going to lead to multiple gods it's going to lead to very
5:07:29bad things so how are we defining personhood well when the ancients defined personhood rather than
5:07:35thinking about something as to personal dignity or something as to personal awareness or something as
5:07:42to individually possessing an intellect or individually possessing a will rather than
5:07:48thinking about something like that they thought of something very different the intention of the
5:07:52ancients when considering personhood was to consider how there is an individual iteration
5:07:58of something so if we think about something like humanity humanity is going to refer to the
5:08:05universal it's going to refer to the communicable humanity is abstract so humanity is communicable
5:08:13to multiple different individuals there could be multiple different individuals that are contained
5:08:17in the category of humanity but when it comes to Peter or Paul or Thomas or whoever these
5:08:26individual iterations are incommunicable so we see that the foundation isn't necessarily that there
5:08:32is some sort of individual iteration numerically individual iteration of humanity in Peter or a
5:08:39numerically individual iteration of humanity in Paul these are merely accidental to whether
5:08:44there is actually a person or not rather what's important is whether there is communicability
5:08:51so when it comes to the trinity are the subject and the terminus by the real relation they have
5:08:57with one another is this communicable or is it incommunicable could paternity be communicated no
5:09:04of course not could affiliation be communicated of course not could passive spiration be
5:09:09communicated of course not so because these can't be communicated then by definition because we have
5:09:16an incommunicable possession we have personhood because we're talking about something which is
5:09:23intellectual and not merely a rock or a stick or a stone we actually do have personhood in this case
5:09:30thus definitionally if you are going to concede processions you need to concede relations and if
5:09:37you're going to concede relations you're going to need to concede relative opposition and if you're
5:09:41going to concede relative opposition you're going to concede real distinction and if you
5:09:46concede real distinction you're going to concede persons so we have completely and utterly verified
5:09:52the teaching of the Catholic Church there are four relations the four relations are paternity
5:09:58affiliation active spiration passive spiration there are three persons the Father the Son and
5:10:05the Holy Ghost and there are two processions the procession of intellection the procession
5:10:10of valition and we hold all of this but we also hold that there is one God and we are able to do
5:10:18this by the key which unlocks everything else which is relation but that's all that I have
5:10:25for you guys as always God bless eastern Orthodox this is for Astra by the way researchers Orthodox
5:10:32object that seeing the divine essence yet not comprehending it doesn't make sense and that
5:10:36we Catholics if we don't have the intermediary of energies have no touch with God why that's that's
5:10:42my response i don't know what else I can say like why why is it not like necessary like why do you
5:10:50need to have these intermediary energies to have a true connection with God what necessitates that if
5:10:56the objection is well God cannot reach us through created mediums well then did the the wine bird
5:11:02unite himself to a to an uncreated human nature or created one if it's created then it's possible
5:11:10for a created medium and for God to reach us uh through that and as for the energies themselves
5:11:17which they deem to be uncreated well they have to explain what kind of distinction there exists
5:11:23between the essence and energy because if it's a real distinction then that's going to imply
5:11:27composition because um they are either united or not united of course they're going to say united
5:11:34from eternity but that means composition because composition is basically the union of two distinct
5:11:40extremes one is the essence the other is energies besides if they're really distinct that means that
5:11:45divine essence in itself lacks the perfections and is only perfect if you posit eternal and separate
5:11:52energies besides from all eternity so an example of this would be like this there exists a divine
5:11:58essence without the divine energy of knowledge the divine essence wouldn't be said to be knowing so
5:12:04God's essence cannot have knowledge if there's no energy of knowledge eternally and inseparably
5:12:09united to it so that means if you consider the divine essence in itself it's not knowing it's
5:12:16not knowledgeable so it's deficient so that means if energies and essence are really distinct the
5:12:21divine essence is deficient and perfected by something other than itself which means God's
5:12:26essence stands in relation to his energies as potency to act but that's impossible basically uh
5:12:31it doesn't matter if you hold to energies because we hold to energies too what ma what matters is
5:12:36that what kind of distinction exists between it and if it's real then it's just not awesome
5:12:40sorry I just uh I just decided to do the worst thing ever and check Twitter and there's people
5:12:47complaining about the hijab game over no but actually I I I had to think about this when
5:12:53it came to justification because people were asking me this question when it came to you
5:12:57know participation like how do we participate or have union with God unless there's the energies
5:13:02and the question is really easy is what do you mean by participate well participate just means
5:13:07communicated likeness it's not really that you know it's not that that difficult like yeah some
5:13:13people think that like my child participates in my likeness you know steel participates in the heat
5:13:18of fire all the means of participated likeness so with the infusion of sanctifying grace sanctifying
5:13:23grace the formal and physical yet accidental and analogous participation in the divine nature so
5:13:29sanctifying grace is a participation of the divine nature so we have the participation of the divine
5:13:32nature uh right there by a participated likeness and a union is the same thing is uh union occurs
5:13:41by uh a bunch of different modes i'm united to my wife in matrimony i am united to Astro and that
5:13:48we're both humans and that we're both Catholics as well i well technically um I'm united I'm united
5:13:55to my viewers um in that they're hearing and uh in listening and understanding what I'm saying
5:14:01right now there's multiple ways in which you can be united to something but the the orthodox very
5:14:07often in order to bring forward their palomite novelties what they'll attempt to do is they'll
5:14:13attempt to use these words of participation and union as like Hindu magic terms and really it's
5:14:20not it's not like that and if they actually took 5 seconds to think about how participation and
5:14:25union happen in their day-to-day life they would realize that the standard that they're holding
5:14:30uh us to is just ridiculous yeah they they think like participation is basically a swimming water
5:14:35pool where you can swim there and that's how you participate like that's not how it works
5:14:40yeah when it comes to chasming the capid ocean fathers no they don't deny the pic vision a lot
5:14:46of times what fathers are denying and it's kind of weird that people will use these texts is they're
5:14:52denying either on the one hand the comprehension of the divine nature yeah which obviously on the
5:14:58other hand they're denying the view the vision of the divine nature with bodily eyes which we
5:15:06we don't think that the beatific vision happens by vision of of the bodily eyes like duh St many
5:15:13times will say explicitly that million times that the divine is incomprehensible so true yeah go
5:15:21read first sentence of Suma controgent book four [Music] the aspect of the divine essence it was an
5:15:30activity of God whether created or uncre how can how can an how can something be uncreated and be
5:15:38material yeah yeah how like you're telling me I can just put my hand into the into the uncreated
5:15:45and just take it out yeah some eels just with the uh with the uh the holy fire it's the It's
5:15:53the holy fire is uncreated yeah yeah you can put water and extinguish something that's uncreated
5:16:02is that right yeah i mean this is worse than like I mean at least the pagans thought that
5:16:06the gods were you know a fish or you know a a cow or something like that you guys think he's
5:16:14literally just like a little material flame like it's terrible that's I don't know how you can't
5:16:19understand the blasphemy of saying that God that the little sparks of fire are uncreated
5:16:26it's terrible yeah like you can say that energy by which God created that burning bush is uncreative
5:16:34because God's energy is uncreated eternal it's in fact but to say that the effect itself you're
5:16:40seeing there is uncreated is just crazy any Catholic who's been on the internet for a while
5:16:44has probably heard the accusation that the sacred heart is notorium this is actually quite an old
5:16:51accusation it isn't something which is unique with the Orthodox this is an accusation that actually
5:16:57was first given by the Jansenists 18th century Italian Jansenist Giovani Batista wrote "Quote
5:17:05the devotion to the heart of Jesus is contrary to the spirit of the church childish superstitious
5:17:12and tends toward notorianism and Pelagianism." End quote like many of the accusations that
5:17:17internet orthodox have against Catholics this was an accusation which was revived from Jansenism by
5:17:2420th century Orthodox who were living in the west moreover this was popularized as many of these
5:17:30narratives were by Father Saraphim Rose about 2 weeks ago Pope Francis released an encyclical on
5:17:37the sacred heart and actually in this encyclical he gives insight into this controversy he gives
5:17:44insight on two points one what the theologians call the distinction between the material versus
5:17:49formal object of the devotion and two the idea of a natural image both of these points are very
5:17:57important to understanding what the devotion to the sacred heart is and why it is important i'll
5:18:02give you an example when one prays the litany of the sacred heart at one point in the prayer we say
5:18:08"He heart of Jesus pierced by a lance have mercy on us." Now here we are obviously speaking about
5:18:14the physical organ that is located in the chest of our Lord yet at other points we pray something
5:18:20like part of Jesus a flame with love for us have mercy on us or part of Jesus wellspring of all
5:18:26virtue have mercy on us here as in most other instances we're using heart in a wider sense
5:18:33to refer to the affections of Christ or even the effects that Christ has on us yet at other times
5:18:40we even refer to the divinity itself such as when we say a heart of Jesus infinite in majesty have
5:18:47mercy on us but at other times we clearly speak of the humanity such as when we say heart of Jesus
5:18:53formed by the holy spirit in the womb of the virgin mother have mercy on us so what's going
5:18:58on here theologians make a distinction between the material and formal objects of the devotion
5:19:04but Pope Francis states it a much simpler way writing quote everything finds its unity in the
5:19:09heart which can be the dwelling place of love in all its spiritual psychic and even physical
5:19:15dimensions end quote further in another place he writes quote universal human experience has
5:19:21made the image of the heart something unique the language of poetry reflects the power of these
5:19:26experiences in the course of history the heart has taken on unique symbolic value that is more than
5:19:32merely conventional end quote therefore when we refer to the devotion to the sacred heart we do
5:19:38not merely refer to the corporeal organ even to the soul that is the origin of Christ's love but
5:19:44to the source and origin of each and every level of Christ's love both divine and human this is
5:19:50what Pope Francis refers to as the quote effective center of the human being end quote in this Pope
5:19:56Francis distinguishes between a three-fold love one the infinite divine love of Christ two the
5:20:03spiritual love of Christ humanity and three the sensible love of Christ humanity in this Pope
5:20:09Francis distinguishes between a three-fold love one the infinite divine love of Christ two the
5:20:15spiritual love of Christ humanity and three the sensible love of Christ humanity you may ask what
5:20:21the distinction between the spiritual love and sensible love of Christ humanity is it is actually
5:20:26quite simple traditionally we distinguish between two levels of the soul the higher level which has
5:20:32the intellect and will and the lower level which has the appetites from which flow the passions so
5:20:38all Pope Francis means to say is that the devotion of the sacred heart encompasses both these parts
5:20:44of man now it is important to realize that in Christ there is what's called a moral union of
5:20:51these three loves the church has always rejected the heresy of the Apollinarians who attempted to
5:20:57remove the reality of Christ's human soul and the heresy of the Julianists who attempted to remove
5:21:02the reality of Christ's passions yet the church also recognizes that these three levels always
5:21:08work in unison with one another but there's a practical issue here we have these three loves
5:21:14which work in unison with one another but it can be difficult to ground their union and some sort
5:21:20of image or symbol in order to ground this union we look to the symbol that many cultures in sacred
5:21:26scripture itself uses as the point of unity for these affections which is the heart the
5:21:33physical heart becomes the symbol of the united work of these three loves therefore Pope Francis
5:21:38writes quote "We cannot attain our fulfillment as human beings unless we open our hearts to others
5:21:45only through love do we become fully ourselves the deepest part of us created for love will fulfill
5:21:52God's plan only if we learn to love and the heart is the symbol of that love the eternal son of God
5:21:59in his utter transcendence chose to love each of us with a human heart his human emotions became
5:22:06the sacrament of that infinite and endless love his heart then is not merely a symbol for some
5:22:12disembodied spiritual truth in gazing upon the Lord's heart we contemplate a physical reality his
5:22:19human flesh which enables him to possess genuine human emotions and feelings like ourselves albeit
5:22:26fully transformed by his divine love our devotion must ascend to the infinite love of the person of
5:22:33the son of God yet we must keep in mind that his divine love is inseparable from his human love
5:22:39the image of his heart of flesh helps us to do precisely this since the heart continues to be
5:22:45seen in the popular mind as the affective center of each human being it remains the best means
5:22:50of signifying the divine love of Christ united forever and inseparably to his holy human love
5:22:56pest I 12th observed that the gospel in referring to the love of Christ's heart speaks not only of
5:23:02divine charity but also of human affection indeed the heart of Jesus Christ hypothically united
5:23:09to the divine person of the word beyond doubt throbbed with love in every other tender affection
5:23:15end quote so to summarize the first part there are three levels of love that Christ has divine
5:23:21spiritual and sensible these three levels of love are united together to work in unison with one
5:23:27another now traditionally the center or unity of affection is seen as the physical heart therefore
5:23:34the union of these three the true object of our worship is adored as symbolized by the physical
5:23:40heart of Christ yet we can go further than this how does this object relate to the whole Christ
5:23:46pope Francis drawing from pest I 12th teaches that the united love of Christ symbolized by
5:23:52the physical heart is an image of the entire person of Christ and only worshiped in so far
5:23:58as it is united to the whole Christ quote "It is understandable then that the church has chosen
5:24:03the image of the heart to represent the human and divine love of Jesus Christ in the inmost core of
5:24:09his person yet while the depiction of a heart of fire may be an eloquent symbol of the burning love
5:24:14of Jesus Christ it is important that this heart be not represented apart from him the heart too has
5:24:21the advantage of being immediately recognizable as the profound unifying center of the body an
5:24:27expression of the totality of the person unlike other individual organs as a part that stands for
5:24:33the whole we could easily misinterpret it were we to contemplate it apart from the Lord himself
5:24:39the image of the heart should lead us to contemplate Christ in all the beauty and richness
5:24:43of his humanity and divinity end quote this is vital to understand the notorians divided the
5:24:50humanity of Christ from his divinity and sought to give a separate worship to the humanity of Christ
5:24:55we can easily become notorians if we think of the sacred heart as the veneration of a distinct
5:25:00object of worship rather than as a symbol for what is most noble in Christ his divine and human love
5:25:07yet there is something strange in this section pope Francis mentions certain aesthetic concerns
5:25:12about how we image the sacred heart in order to combat any misunderstanding about the object of
5:25:17our worship in our devotion to the sacred heart he cites two responses from the congregation of the
5:25:22sacred rights that in Pope Francis's words quote forbid placing on the altar representations of
5:25:29the heart of Jesus or Mary alone to avoid the risk of taking the heart as an object of adoration or
5:25:35spiritual dialogue apart from the person of Christ end quote thus in order to avoid the possible
5:25:42notorianizing of the devotion of the sacred heart we ought to remember that the physical heart which
5:25:47we venerate is not a distinct object that is separate from the person of Christ but the part
5:25:52of Christ which best exemplifies the whole Christ according to Pope Francis this is best symbolized
5:25:59by images where Christ holds his heart out to us and points to it as a point of conclusion it is
5:26:06actually by way of the devotion of the sacred heart that we are able to offer a remedy for
5:26:11notorianizing in our worship for the sacred heart allows us to worship both natures with a single
5:26:16act of worship in considering the united way in which both the divine and human love work
5:26:21for our redemption and thereby ascending from the human as the quote sacrament of the divine
5:26:28thus Pope Francis states quote "Entering into the heart of Christ we feel loved by a human
5:26:34heart filled with affections and emotions like our own." Jesus's human will freely chooses to
5:26:40love us and that spiritual love is flooded with grace and charity when we plunge into the depths
5:26:46of his heart we find ourselves overwhelmed by the immense glory of his infinite love as the eternal
5:26:52son which we can no longer separate from his human love it is precisely in his human love and not
5:26:58apart from it that we encounter his divine love we discover the infinite in the finite it is the
5:27:04constant and unequivocal teaching of the church that our worship of Christ's person is undivided
5:27:10inseparably embracing both his divine and his human natures from ancient times the church has
5:27:16taught that we are to adore one in the same Christ the son of God and man consisting of and in two
5:27:22inseparable and undivided natures and we do so with one act of adoration in as much as the word
5:27:28became flesh christ is in no way worshiped in two natures whereby two acts of worship are introduced
5:27:34instead we venerate by one act of worship the word made flesh together with his own flesh end quote
5:27:46one of the first things you learn about when you get into the internet Catholic versus Protestant
5:27:50apologetic sphere is that Luther presumably took the epistle of St james out of the Bible
5:27:57and called it an epistle of straw ir of goes that Luther invented his doctrine of justification by
5:28:02faith alone yet due to the difficulties found in James chapter 2 where St james says that
5:28:08we are quote justified by works and not by faith alone luther decided to remove this book so that
5:28:14he could continue to teach his erroneous view of justification yet is this narrative true
5:28:20some Lutheran have responded to this criticism by denying that Luther removed James from the Bible
5:28:26by pointing to an alternative ex Jesus of James 2 um but I want to just address James 2 because this
5:28:31comes up in in a lot of these conversations now there is uh it it's difficult and it is recognized
5:28:41I think by many and many of the church fathers say this as well that it is difficult to reconcile
5:28:46Romans chapter 4 with James chapter 2 stating that by justify and faith St james meant something
5:28:52completely different than St paul this controversy is actually an ancient one st augustine witnesses
5:28:59to the fact that when St peter said that in the epistles of St paul quote "There are some things
5:29:05in them hard to understand." He was specifically referring to his statements on faith and works
5:29:10which some misunderstood as being against the role of works in justification due to this threat St
5:29:16augustine witnesses that saints Jude James John and Peter wrote their epistles he states this in
5:29:23his work called on faith and works where he writes quote this opinion originated in the time of the
5:29:29apostles and that is why we find some of them for example Peter John James and Jude writing against
5:29:36it in their epistles and asserting very strongly that faith is no good without works end quote
5:29:42he further states in another place quote Unomius is said to have been hostile to good morals to
5:29:48such an extent that he asserted that the commission of and perseverance in any sins
5:29:54whatever were no obstacle to anyone if he shared the faith which you know stated end quote this is
5:30:00also witnessed to by St epipanius who writes quote the Unomians say it is nothing if someone falls
5:30:06through fornication or some other sin for they say that God only asks that one remain in their faith
5:30:11alone end quote but in the interest of honesty the ancient heretics that St augustine refuted
5:30:18are quite distinct from the errors of the Lutheran in which in that they defined faith as Catholics
5:30:24defined faith whereas the definitions used by the Protestants is different as Billowart admits quote
5:30:30"Those ancient heretics understood the faith by which they said was sufficient for salvation to
5:30:35be that faith by which we believe all the articles of faith but the new heretics understand it to be
5:30:42that special faith by which each one believes or trusts that his sins are forgiven end quote
5:30:48continuing the spirit of honesty the record must be corrected on two points which the Protestants
5:30:53bring forward truthfully first it is not true that Luther removed the book of James from the Bible
5:31:00the first edition of the Luther Bible was printed in 1522 and did contain St james's epistle in it
5:31:06from the beginning while the Lutheran apologists are correct to point this out this is not the
5:31:11entire story as we will see later in the video second it is not completely honest to use this
5:31:17as some sort of gotcha against the Lutheran it is quite true that sometimes words are used in
5:31:23different senses it is perfectly possible that the words faith and justify are being used in
5:31:29a different sense from how they are used in Luther's phrase justification by faith alone
5:31:34this is clear from what Billowart pointed out against those who would too quickly identify
5:31:38the heresy of the Lutheran with the heresy of the Unomians the Lutheran and Unomians use the
5:31:44word faith in different senses so it would be dishonest and equivocal to call Lutheran
5:31:49Yunomians for using the same phrase rather it is important to take their ex Jesus seriously and
5:31:55respond to it likewise demonstrating from the text that these terms take the Catholic sense
5:32:01the Catholic ex Jesus is simply presented by St augustine in on faith and works where he writes
5:32:07quote when St paul says therefore that man is justified by faith and not by the observance of
5:32:12the law he does not mean that good works are not necessary or that it is enough to receive and to
5:32:18profess the faith and no more what he means rather and what he wants us to understand is that man can
5:32:24be justified by faith even though he has not previously performed any works of the law for
5:32:30the works of the law are meritorious not before but after justification as regards Paul himself
5:32:37he does not say that any faith in God is good but he says clearly that that faith is good and in
5:32:43conformity with the teaching of the gospel which results in works of love and faith he says that
5:32:48workketh by charity as for that faith which some think is sufficient for salvation he says that it
5:32:54profits nothing if I should have all faith so that I could remove mountains and not have charity I am
5:33:01nothing on the other hand where faith is joined to charity there without doubt you will find a
5:33:07good life for charity is the fulfillment of the law end quote this is simply presented by Pope
5:33:13Benedict the 16th when he writes quote Luther's phrase faith alone is true if it is not opposed to
5:33:19faith in charity in love end quote as St augustine states "If one wants to read more about this they
5:33:26can read his work on the spirit in the letter." Beside these points it is important to remember
5:33:31that Luther as an individual for Protestants does not hold some sort of magisterial role luther
5:33:37could and did make mistakes in their mind and it is frequently admitted that he was less than clear
5:33:42on certain points whereas theological successors needed to clarify Lutheranism so it would be much
5:33:47more helpful and honest on this point to in some way for Catholic apologists to abandon Luther
5:33:53as a place to attempt to clearly draw forth the Lutheran doctrine on justification just
5:33:58as it would be helpful and honest for Catholic apologists to abandon Calvin as a place to attempt
5:34:04to clearly draw forth the reformed doctrine on predestination now on the other hand the Lutheran
5:34:10narrative cannot but strike one as evasive if not dishonest when one actually looks at the history
5:34:15on this point this is clear from two points first we can look at Luther's own words second we can
5:34:21look at early Lutheran rejections first and foremost while certain books were printed in
5:34:27the Lutheran Bible these were relegated to an appendix which explains the interesting order
5:34:32that the New Testament takes in the Lutheran Bible since it was not only James but also Hebrews Jude
5:34:38and Revelation that he was not a fan of this is evident from his prefaces on the books of the
5:34:43New Testament which I will link below and give page numbers for for your own reference in the
5:34:49general preface of the New Testament besides other confusing strange and at times profane statements
5:34:55that he gives about the New Testament books he writes his famous epistle of straw comment on
5:35:00page 88 he writes quote St james epistle is really an epistle of straw compared to them
5:35:07for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it end quote in order to understand how
5:35:12he determines the canonicity of Hebrews James Jude and Revelation we need to understand the principle
5:35:18whereby he determines canonicity luther is clear that the criterion of canonicity for him is how a
5:35:25certain book relates to what he believes to be the substance of the New Testament teaching that is
5:35:30justification by faith alone on page 127 he begins to treat the four books that he does not believe
5:35:37are canonical quote "Hitherto we have had the right certain chief books of the New Testament the
5:35:43four following had in ancient times a different reputation." End quote the first book he treats is
5:35:49Hebrews he gives a number of different arguments against the canonicity of the epistle one that it
5:35:55wasn't written by St paul two he cannot reconcile chapters 6 and 10 with his view of repentance
5:36:01three that it is intrinsically incoherent thus he writes quote "My opinion is that it is an epistle
5:36:08of many pieces put together and it does not deal with any one subject in an orderly way." End quote
5:36:13thus he uses the image of St paul of gold mixed with straw since he states that some parts are
5:36:19good other parts are not good writing quote "We should not be hindered even though wood straw or
5:36:25hay be mixed in with them but accept this fine teaching on the priesthood of Christ with all
5:36:30honor though to be sure we cannot put it on the same level with the Apostolic epistles."
5:36:36End quote the second book he treats is the Epistle of St james which though he famously stated that
5:36:41it was an epistle of straw he mixes praise and condemnation in his treatment he states quote
5:36:47"Though this epistle of St james was rejected by the ancients i praise it and hold it a good book
5:36:53because it sets up no doctrine of men and lays great stress upon God's law but to state my own
5:36:59opinion about it though without injury to anyone I consider that it is not the writing of any apostle
5:37:05end quote the first and chief reason he gives is about the doctrine of faith alone writing flatly
5:37:12against St paul and all the rest of the scriptures it ascribed righteousness to works and says that
5:37:18Abraham was justified by his works though St paul on the contrary teaches that Abraham was justified
5:37:24without works by faith alone." End quote yet to be fair to Luther he does provide a gloss
5:37:30on how this might be read in accordance with his teaching yet he still states that it makes
5:37:34an exogetical mistake writing quote "Now although this epistle might be helped and a gloss be found
5:37:41for this word righteousness it cannot be defended against applying to works the saying of Moses in
5:37:48Genesis 15:6 which speaks only of Abraham's faith and not of his works." As St paul shows in Romans
5:37:554 this fault therefore leads to the conclusion that it is not the work of any apostle end quote
5:38:02he also critiques it because it does not mention the work of Christ writing quote that is the
5:38:07true test by which to judge all books when we see whether they deal with Christ or not since all the
5:38:14scriptures show us Christ and St paul will know nothing but Christ what does not teach Christ is
5:38:20not apostolic even though St peter or Paul taught it even though Judas Annis Pilate and Herod did
5:38:28it end quote he then goes on to critique what St james says about the law writing quote "This James
5:38:34does nothing more than drive to the law and its works." And he mixes the two up in such disorderly
5:38:40fashion that it seems to me he must have been some good pious man who took some sayings of the
5:38:46apostles disciples and threw them thus on paper or perhaps they were written down by someone
5:38:52else from his preaching he calls the law a law of liberty though St paul calls it a law of slavery
5:38:59of wrath of death and of sin in a word he wants to guard against those who relied on faith without
5:39:04works and is unequal to the task in spirit thought and word and rend the scriptures and thereby
5:39:11resists Paul in all scripture and would accomplish by insisting on the law and what the apostles
5:39:17accomplish by inciting men to love therefore I cannot put him among the chief books though I
5:39:23would not thereby prevent anyone from putting him where he pleases in estimating him as he pleases
5:39:28for there are many good sayings in him." End quote now after he finishes his treatment of James which
5:39:34is more complicated than is usually presented by both Catholics and Protestants he goes on to
5:39:39treat the epistle of St jude his problem with St jude's epistle is not so much doctrinal but more
5:39:45so historical he writes that St jude quote speaks of the apostles as a disciple coming long after
5:39:51them and quotes sayings and stories that are found nowhere in the scriptures this moved the ancient
5:39:57fathers to throw this epistle out of the main body of the scriptures although I praise the book it is
5:40:03an epistle that need not be counted among the chief books which are to lay the foundation of
5:40:08faith end quote lastly Luther treats the book of Revelation and it is a bit odd to say the least
5:40:16with a massive explanation of the book culminating in how it talks about the Catholics but despite
5:40:22this he denies its canonicity he writes quote "About this book of the revelation of John I leave
5:40:28everyone free to hold his own ideas and would bind no man in my opinion or judgment i say what I feel
5:40:36i miss more than one thing in this book and this makes me hold that it is neither apostolic nor
5:40:41prophetic." End quote he makes some strange arguments to support his position including
5:40:47arguing that it is not part of the apostolic office to write a prophetic book and critiquing
5:40:52it for speaking so highly of itself when Luther personally thinks other books of the Bible are
5:40:57better then he makes the strange claim that Christ is not preached in this book writing quote "Let
5:41:02everyone think of it as his own spirit gives him to think my spirit cannot fit itself into this
5:41:08book there's one sufficient reason for me not to think highly of it christ is not taught or known
5:41:13in it therefore I stick to the books which gave me Christ clearly and purely." End quote although it
5:41:19is to be remembered that this is from his original preface some of these comments were removed edited
5:41:25or softened in later editions now that we have went over the internal evidence there is also
5:41:31external evidence that makes this fact clearer for it wasn't just Luther who made these statements
5:41:36but also early Protestants following his lead for example Thomas Manton a 17th century Puritan
5:41:43author in Westminster Divine stated in harsh terms quote this was the error and failing of
5:41:49this holy and eminent servant of God and therein he is followed by others of his profession oander
5:41:56Camario etc and Aomearius whose blasphemies are recorded by Gratius however Luther is here in
5:42:03deserted by the modern Lutheran who allow this epistle in the canon as is plain by the writings
5:42:09of Hunus Gearhard Walther etc end quote yet it must be admitted that the view of Luther as we saw
5:42:17from abundant quotations above is not as simple as rejection or acceptance yes he believed that
5:42:23they were not canonical but he still conceded that others may disagree with him and still
5:42:28conceded a certain usefulness to these books this is something that later Lutheran authors
5:42:32would defend with a distinction between two types of books the homolumina which are books that are
5:42:38universally received and therefore completely certain on the one hand and on the other hand
5:42:43the antilagumina which have been disputed in the church and therefore they are less certain
5:42:48of them from this distinction which was first given by Ucius he states that doctrine should
5:42:53only be proven from the certain books and not from the uncertain books when Trent defined both that
5:42:59the Old Testament dudar canonicals and that the New Testament and the Lagumina were canonical
5:43:04the Lutheran went so far as to call this quote insulent presumption and quote trident arrogance
5:43:11while also referring to us as quote papist parasites in the words of keen all of this for
5:43:17simply holding to the canonical status of all 27 books of the New Testament agitius Hunus who died
5:43:24in6003 and was a signer of the formula of concord writes quote the epistle to the Hebrews second and
5:43:30third John second Peter the epistles of James and Jude and the Apocalypse are outside the canon and
5:43:36are judged apocryphal end quote yet he concedes that he is of greater authority than those of the
5:43:41Old Testament and can be profitably read andreas Oander the Younger who died in 1617 stated quote
5:43:49there are certain books which are spoken against because there does not exist sufficient testimony
5:43:53of the early church concerning their authors such as the epistles of James Jude etc these are called
5:43:59haggio they are also called ecclesiastical they do not have in themselves value for establishing
5:44:05doctrine end quote although as stated above by Manton there was a diversity among the
5:44:10Lutheran in conclusion Lutheran will often want to whitewash this early history lasting over a
5:44:16century where the label apocrypha was frequently thrown at seven books of the New Testament this
5:44:22whitewashing is something that goes all the way back to the 17th century but it is just
5:44:26that whitewashing it does not reveal the true and honest history of the strong opposition
5:44:31that the 16th century Lutheran had to the canonization of all 27 books of the New Testament
5:44:43[Music] for most of the heretics of the early church we might view them as being a little stupid
5:44:49you know small intelligence maybe a bit dishonest maybe prideful maybe just straight up evil but
5:44:56there was one heretic in the early church that the fathers simply labeled as viscerally disgusting
5:45:03st thomas Aquinas called him an idiot and a blasphemer st ambrose accused him of sacrilege st
5:45:10jerome accused him of impiiety and St epipanius accused him of quote a rashness exceeding all
5:45:18bounds who was this heretic this heretic was a Roman layman named Helvidius among his many
5:45:25errors and his most serious error was the denial of the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin
5:45:31Mary an impiiety that had been unheard of at that point interestingly enough Helvidius was
5:45:38actually the student of a certain Aryan bishop named Oxentius of Milan st athanasius actually
5:45:44comments on the character in person of this bishop and he said that Oxentius was quote ignorant of
5:45:51the Latin language and unskillful in everything except impiiety end quote this of course would
5:45:58be something that his student Helvidius would follow him in when one looks to the works of
5:46:03Helvidius or rather the works responding to Helvidius he gives the same stock arguments
5:46:08that we are familiar with today he points to our Lord being called firstborn he points to the usage
5:46:13of the word until he points to the brethren of our lord and so on but he actually makes a
5:46:18very interesting argument for historical pedigree for his position and this argument would be the
5:46:24claim to be supported by a very important early Christian writer Tertullian of Carthage now St
5:46:31jerome actually responds to this by simply stating that Tertullan of Carthage was not a church father
5:46:37since he died outside of communion with the church now this is true since he ended up accepting the
5:46:43heresy of the Montinists but the unfortunate part of this is that St jerome actually didn't
5:46:48directly deal with the claim that Tertullian taught this therefore to this day heretics will
5:46:54simply reference Tertullian as a gotcha against the perpetual virginity of our blessed mother
5:47:00we see a development there's a development from the view of Tertullian who's before Nika we and
5:47:06uh to a view that becomes widespread and in the fourth uh end of the 4th century gets challenged
5:47:12by by Helvidius who challenges Jerome and that is sort of the real first real argument on the
5:47:19subject and Helvidius ends up losing that and we can't even find his writings they've all
5:47:22been destroyed so it's hard to say whether he was actually a heretic or not by judging his
5:47:26own writings early Christian writers of various abilities and levels of knowledge while clearly
5:47:31affirming the virgin birth of Christ did not speak of this later concept as part of the gospel indeed
5:47:37one such writer Tertullian spoke of Mary's other children with an ease that demonstrates it was not
5:47:42at the time a point of contention or argument now Tertullian became a Montinist and so his testimony
5:47:48is often dismissed without ever explaining to us why it is that he could make the statements he
5:47:53did and no one even batted an eyebrow yet the idea that Tertullian taught the Helvidian view against
5:48:00the perpetual virginity of the blessed virgin Mary is completely ridiculous and lacking all
5:48:05foundation there are a few texts which are simply quoted in order to support this thesis so what I
5:48:11wanted to do is with a critical eye go through all of these texts and ask the question do these texts
5:48:17actually substantiate the position that Tertullan denied the perpetual virginity of our blessed
5:48:23mother from this we'll see the complete opposite and actually some of these texts support and teach
5:48:30the perpetual virginity of our blessed mother the first text is from Tertullians on monogamy now in
5:48:35the early church there was a certain debate that went on and this debate was over the status of
5:48:39digamy now digamy is different than bigamy digamy is the idea of having a second spouse after your
5:48:45first spouse dies bigamy is the idea of having two spouses at the same time now obviously bigamy
5:48:52has always been rejected within the church but digamy was hotly disputed within the early church
5:48:57and this work is tot's take on the matter some took the position that digamy was immoral and
5:49:03unlawful others took the position that digamy was basically less ideal here tool weighs in on the
5:49:10matter and references a few biblical characters and their monogamy the text in question is found
5:49:16in chapter 8 it states quote "Who is more worthy to initiate the body of the Lord than flesh of
5:49:23the same kind as that flesh which conceived and gave birth to him christ was indeed born of a
5:49:28virgin who would marry once for all after her childbearing so that Christ might have on his
5:49:34birth certificate a double title of holiness since his mother was both a virgin and married only to
5:49:39one man." End quote here what Tolene is doing is simply pointing to the supremacy of monogamy
5:49:45over digamy by using the example of our lady who was only married to one man St joseph now
5:49:52the Helvidians seek to use this text and argue that since it mentions her marrying St joseph
5:49:59that therefore they must have engaged in marital relations but obviously this simply doesn't follow
5:50:05in fact when we look at the context this text teaches the exact opposite first we can actually
5:50:11refute the supposition that marriage necessarily means engaging in the marital use for Tertullian
5:50:16tertullian taught against certain authors like St clement that only St peter the Apostle was married
5:50:21and that the other apostles were not married but he also taught that St peter after ascending to
5:50:26the aposttoate did not engage in marital relations and was continent if you want to read more about
5:50:32this there's a very good book by Stefan Hyde called Celibacy in the early church clearly
5:50:38Tertulli did not assume that being married means engaging in the marital use but the more important
5:50:43consideration is actually when we compare the few sentences before this text with the text itself
5:50:50it states quote "Behold there immediately present themselves to us on the threshold as it were the
5:50:56two priestesses of Christian sanctity monogamy and countenance one modest in Zachchariah the priest
5:51:03one absolute in John the forerunner one appeasing God one preaching Christ one proclaiming a perfect
5:51:11priest one exhibiting more than a prophet him namely who has not only preached or personally
5:51:16pointed out but even baptized Christ end quote we see something very interesting here tertullian
5:51:22states that there are two forms of perfection monogamy as Zachariah which means having one
5:51:28spouse and countenance as St john the Baptist which means to be a virgin when Teroleian speaks
5:51:34of Mary he actually compares Mary to St john the Baptist which is to actually state that she is a
5:51:40perpetual virgin just like St john the Baptist was he then goes on to confirm this by speaking
5:51:45of a quote double title of holiness that Mary had what is this double title of holiness well
5:51:51this double title of holiness is both being a virgin and being the wife of a single husband
5:51:57that is being monogamous and thus she fulfills the perfections found in both St zachariah and St john
5:52:03the Baptist the heretics are so blinded when they read this passage that rather than realizing that
5:52:08this text is a text which explicitly teaches the perpetual virginity of our lady they twist it to
5:52:14the opposite sense and say that this denies the perpetual virginity of our lady here he
5:52:19exalts her dignity as both chasteed in being a perpetual virgin and monogamous in being married
5:52:25to one husband that is St joseph so here Mary can actually be a model for both those who are
5:52:30celibate in the church and those who are married in the church a second series of texts comes from
5:52:34Tertullians on the flesh of Christ in this text he is actually following a litany of fathers who
5:52:40responded to a heresy called dosatism dosatism denied that Christ had a real body because they
5:52:46were gnostics and thought that flesh was evil and rather thought that he only had a phantom
5:52:50body or an appearance of a body so the purpose of this text is to simply prove that Christ had
5:52:56real flesh in the seventh chapter of the work he deals with a particular exogetical argument from
5:53:00the dosatists that is the famous question from the gospel according to St matthew who is my mother
5:53:06and who are my brethren they reasoned from this passage that our lord here was implying that he
5:53:12didn't actually have a mother and that he didn't actually have blood relations and from this they
5:53:17implied that our lord didn't actually have flesh so Teroleian what he is intending to do here is
5:53:25to show that when he asks who is my mother and who are my brethren that the is and the are in
5:53:30that passage does not mean to imply some sort of denial but rather is a true affirmation so the
5:53:36entire scope and purpose is to simply affirm that the is and the are indicating true blood relations
5:53:43which are in line with Christ's true body so the argument from the Helvidians simply boils
5:53:49down to he says that they're brethren therefore he must mean that they are sons of our lady now
5:53:56this of course doesn't follow both Catholic and Protestants reading this passage of all sorts and
5:54:02kinds are going to affirm that these are true blood relations that these are true brethren
5:54:06another interesting point to consider is that this actually would be the most obvious place
5:54:11to bring up the Helvidian view if he happened to hold to the Helvidian view since it would make
5:54:17a very strong argument that our Lord had a true body if Tertullian simply pointed to all of those
5:54:22individuals throughout history that we know who are also children of the Blessed Virgin Mary but
5:54:29he doesn't do this why doesn't he do this well he already told us why he doesn't do this because he
5:54:35believes that our lady was a perpetual virgin so this argument from the Helvidians simply makes an
5:54:41assumption an assumption that they also make in the New Testament text it is not at all any sort
5:54:47of explicit or implicit proof of the Helvidian thesis now certain Protestants will also point to
5:54:53the 23rd chapter of the same work but in the 23rd chapter brethren of our Lord aren't even mentioned
5:55:00the only thing mentioned in this chapter is that our lord had a true birth from the blessed virgin
5:55:04Mary it really doesn't have anything to do with the perpetual virginity the last text that gets
5:55:10brought up is against Marcian book 4 chapter 7 in this work Marcian is basically giving the
5:55:16same argument as the dosatists earlier the who is my mother and who are my brethren yet again
5:55:22Tertullian does not give the obvious Helvidian argument that all of these figures throughout
5:55:28the early church that we all know of these were blood brothers of our Lord so obviously he was
5:55:33born in a true body he doesn't state that at all he merely states that these brothers are quote
5:55:38true relations or quote blood relations that's all he says he says that they're relatives which
5:55:44everybody agrees with in the first place but this all of course rests on the assumptions
5:55:50of the Protestants the clear teaching of Tertullian is that our lady was both wife
5:55:56and virgin throughout her entire life and I think this teaches us something important often times in
5:56:02theology there are common historical lies that are passed down from generation to generation
5:56:08and a lot of time the apologists like Gavin Ortland or Mike Winger or James White they
5:56:14simply restate a lot of these old tropes without actually going into the primary sources some of
5:56:19these read secondary sources and some of them even only interact with tertiary sources like videos or
5:56:26debates what's very important is to not assume that they're representing the primary sources
5:56:31correctly and actually in each case to question what is taught that's all that I have for you
5:56:37and as always God bless st augustine taught purgatory this is a plain fact now throughout
5:56:44the history of Protestant theology there's been a number of ways of coping about this
5:56:49first some will say that St augustine was simply inconsistent that when he taught purgatory he was
5:56:56not teaching in line with his other views on things like justification some on the other
5:57:01hand will argue that in his handbook he happened to change his view change the view that he had
5:57:07held for decades at that point in which he teaches in the same exact book lastly we actually have a
5:57:14uh based mark of Ephesus moment and some claim that the texts where he teaches purgatory were
5:57:19simply forged such as Jean Dele a 17th century reformed historical theologian who actually wrote
5:57:25one of the most important foundational works in reformed prology classically there's been a number
5:57:32of texts which Catholic theologians appeal to in explaining St augustine's teaching on purgatory
5:57:38but interestingly enough there's actually been a new one which has been found in the year
5:57:431980 there were a group of different Augustinian epistles which were discovered in France and in
5:57:50one of these there was actually a letter which St augustine penned to St siril of Alexandria and in
5:57:56this letter he discusses his teaching on purgatory and how denying purgatory is a Pelagian fiction
5:58:03now as an aside this just shows us how silly the narrative is that the Easterners were not involved
5:58:08in the Pelagian crisis i did a whole video on it you should watch it but anyways let's get
5:58:13into it before we go into the newest discovered text from St augustine commenting on purgatory I
5:58:20wanted to go over his older texts so we can look at all of his corpus in order to better interpret
5:58:25what he says in that letter but before that we need to know a little bit about the theological
5:58:30underpinnings for St augustine when it comes to the doctrine of purgatory and if you want
5:58:35to know more about this you want to see all the details about his teaching on justification which
5:58:39is really the foundation for his teaching on purgatory I did a whole 2-hour video on
5:58:43that you should watch it but anyways we need to understand is that for St augustine justice true
5:58:49justice supernatural justice is the proper order of the soul and the proper order of the soul is
5:58:56the higher faculties ordered to God and the lower faculties ordered to the higher faculties now what
5:59:03happened with the fall of Adam is that there was a disorder of soul and this disorder of soul is
5:59:08passed down through cubisence where you have the flesh overtaking the lower faculties overtaking
5:59:14the higher faculties and ordering them away from God due to the fact that we're not ordered towards
5:59:20God we are cut off from the life of the soul and therefore we are dead in our sins and trespasses
5:59:28but Christ in justification gives us a share in his own justice and in being given a share
5:59:35in his own justice we are properly ordered to God but obviously there is still concupisence
5:59:42which remains this concupisence doesn't kill the soul because it doesn't disorder the soul but it
5:59:48still remains for us to fight against it for us to purify ourselves now from this imperfection
5:59:54that we have due to concupisence there's a few different implications first during this life we
6:00:01need to pray that God forgive us our debts because we commit many of these venial sins and these
6:00:06venial sins incur some sort of debt so we need to pray to God to forgive them and we also give
6:00:12alms we receive the eukarist and we do many other good works in order to get rid of the debt that is
6:00:18incurred through venial sin second obviously when we die we will have not completely extinguished
6:00:26this debt we'll still have plenty of the temporal debt from venial sin so what does this mean well
6:00:33St augustine infers properly that this means that there's not only a type of purggation or cleansing
6:00:41that happens in this life but there's also a type of purggation or cleansing that happens in the
6:00:46next life in purgatory the rest of the punishment which is due to that temporal debt is carried out
6:00:54now obviously the plagians didn't like this because the plagians thought that there was
6:00:59basically two options either on the one hand you are sinless and in being sinless you have eternal
6:01:05life or on the other hand you commit a sin and if you commit a sin then you are cut off from
6:01:12eternal life and therefore when you die you are damned through everlasting fires so the
6:01:18pelagians did not distinguish between mortal sins and venial sins between what St augustine
6:01:24calls grave crimes on the one hand and what he calls light sins or daily sins on the other hand
6:01:30they didn't make this distinction so since they didn't make a distinction in the type
6:01:34of debt they didn't make a distinction in the type of punishment and therefore they said if
6:01:39you happen to be sinful when you die you'll go to everlasting punishment but St augustine in many
6:01:46ways opposed this teaching teaching on things like the universality of those daily sins the necessity
6:01:52of the Lord's prayer and of almsgiving and so on and so forth and therefore since he established
6:01:58these two types of debts he established two types of punishment that occur after life on the one
6:02:04hand eternal punishment which is damnation and on the other hand temporal punishment for those who
6:02:10have simply fallen into venial sins and have not extinguished the debt which is due to them on the
6:02:15one hand and on the other hand those who have fallen into mortal sins who are given eternal
6:02:20punishment so there's two types of debt and therefore two types of punishment to summarize St
6:02:26augustine believed that the sin of Adam plunged us into a type of disorder of soul which is referred
6:02:33to as concubisence yet Christ gives us a share of his justice which properly orders our soul
6:02:40yet there is some motions of concupisence which remain although they don't overtake the soul now
6:02:46if they overtake the soul this is mortal sin and mortal sin leads to eternal punishment yet if we
6:02:51war against them and we are merely wounded in the fight this is called venial sin and venial sin is
6:02:57something which is punished in purgatory also the Pelagians denied this distinction between mortal
6:03:02and venial sin and therefore they denied the distinction between the two types of punishment
6:03:06and two types of debt which is to be incurred now that we went over his teaching on justification
6:03:11his teaching on purgatory is going to be much easier as I mentioned above the Plaggians taught
6:03:16that man can be sinless in this life and more than that not only can they be sinless but they must be
6:03:22sinless in order to reach heaven st and Augustine opposed this teaching by distinguishing between
6:03:27mortal sins on the one hand and venial sins on the other hand this distinction was reflected
6:03:32in the penitential system of the time on the one hand you had mortal sins and these mortal
6:03:37sins had to be released due to the keys of the church by the bishop and on the other hand you
6:03:42had venial sins and these venial and daily sins were forgiven through the daily prayer forgive
6:03:47us our debts and through almsgiving st augustine preached a sermon to catechumans where he stated
6:03:52quote "I do not tell you that you will live here without sin but they are venal without which this
6:03:59life is not for the sake of all sins was baptism provided for the sake of light that is venial sins
6:04:06prayer was provided once for all we have washing and baptism every day we have washing in prayer
6:04:12only do not commit those things for which you must need to be separated from Christ's body that
6:04:17is mortal sins which be far from you for those whom you have seen doing penance have committed
6:04:23heinous things either adulteries or some enormous crimes for these they do penance because if theirs
6:04:31had been light that is venial sins to blot out these daily prayers would suffice." End quote
6:04:38now obviously there are many who do not do sufficient penance throughout their lives
6:04:43but on the other hand in on the perfection of righteousness St augustine is very clear
6:04:48that those who avoid mortal sins are said to be blameless so logically while they wouldn't go to
6:04:54hell since they are quote blameless since they are without mortal sin they also wouldn't go to heaven
6:05:00since they still have punishment which is due to their venial sin to those daily faults which are
6:05:06not a faced completely and totally through prayer it is important to keep this in mind those two
6:05:12types of purgatorial punishment that I mentioned on the one hand the purgatorial punishment in
6:05:17this life which is prayer almsgiving and other types of suffering that we endure for the sake
6:05:23of Christ and on the other hand the purgatorial punishment of the next life which is what we more
6:05:29usually refer to as purgatory once we go over a few other texts this will become much clearer
6:05:35but before we go into these individual texts I want to point out something and what I want to
6:05:40point out is that the teaching on purgatory in St augustine isn't merely us going to individual
6:05:47side comments or maybe some obscure passages it isn't anything like that rather there are entire
6:05:54chapters and entire books of different works which are ordered towards treating purgatory this isn't
6:06:02something which is merely given a side treatment in the thought of St augustine this is something
6:06:07which is constantly and consistently preached throughout large portions of his works for example
6:06:14a large portion of book 21 of City of God by St augustine is taken up with explaining purgatory on
6:06:22the other hand not only is there large portions of different works where St augustine treats
6:06:26purgatory this is something which is treated throughout his career this isn't something that
6:06:31merely comes up as a later reflection like some claim rather this is something which is spoken of
6:06:37over a span of 40 years the first mention of it is found in on Genesis against the manans which
6:06:43was written in 388 AD and the last mention is made in city of god which was written in 426 AD
6:06:50this is something which is consistently spoken of throughout his entire career this isn't some sort
6:06:55of late development that he wrote about in the city of god or something ridiculous like that
6:07:00as I mentioned the first work is on Genesis against the manans he states quote "One who
6:07:06cultivates this field interiorly and gains his bread albeit with toil can suffer this toil up
6:07:12to the end of this life but after this life he need not suffer one who did not cultivate his
6:07:19field and allowed it to be overcome with thorns has in this life the curse of his earth in all
6:07:24his works and after this life he will have either the fire of purggation or eternal punishment thus
6:07:31no one escapes this sentence but we should act so that we feel its punishment only in this life."
6:07:38End quote in this text there's a lot of important things going on first St augustine distinguishes
6:07:44the type of punishment that comes from the curse there's the type of punishment that happens in
6:07:50this life there's the type of punishment which happens through the fire of purggation and
6:07:54there's the type of punishment which happens in eternal punishment and interestingly enough this
6:07:58is actually a very common three-fold distinction which is made by Catholic authors most famously
6:08:04it's a distinction which is made by St thomas in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 3 which we'll get
6:08:09into later this will be very important for how we interpret St augustine because St augustine
6:08:15is going to interpret these punishments in very many different ways yet it's going to be
6:08:20in a cohesive way he divides people into two different types first those who toil in this
6:08:26life and cultivate perfection these individuals do not suffer any sort of punishment afterlife
6:08:31but are immediately brought to perfection second there are those who did not cultivate perfection
6:08:36in this life and these are of two types first those who suffer the fire of purggation and
6:08:42second those who suffer eternal punishment this is obviously a teaching which very clearly lays
6:08:48out mortal sin venal sin and purgatory those who cultivate perfection are those who have completely
6:08:55aaced all venial fault those who go to the fire of purggation are those with venial fault and
6:09:02those who go to hell are those with mortal sin this is very close to something else he wrote
6:09:08a few years later while commenting on Psalm 1 when commenting on Psalm 1 he distinguishes between the
6:09:14wicked and sinners all the wicked are sinners yet not all sinners are wicked only the wicked
6:09:20are those who suffer eternal punishment next he takes the same angle when he's commenting
6:09:25on Psalm 37 about a decade decade and a half later rather than distinguishing between those who toil
6:09:31and don't toil he distinguishes on the part of the punishment first you have the chastening and
6:09:36second you have the rebuke those who are rebuked and as a result are chastened are those who suffer
6:09:41from the purgatorial fires and this purgatorial fire can occur either in this life or it can occur
6:09:48in the life to come and interestingly enough when it comes to this commentary on Psalm 37
6:09:53there's actually a connection with another saint St fgentius st fgentius when he was reading the
6:09:59sermon on Psalm 37 was actually convinced to enter the monastic life anyways St augustine
6:10:05writes quote "Certain people are destined to be chasened by God's anger in the future and rebuked
6:10:11in his wrath it may be that not all those who are rebuked will be chastened as a result but some at
6:10:17least will be saved through the chastening which is to come this will certainly happen because
6:10:22otherwise it would not be called a chastening but it would take place as though through fire
6:10:27others there will be who are rebuked but not chasened for Christ will certainly rebuke those
6:10:32to whom he is to say I was hungry and you did not feed me i was thirsty and you gave me nothing to
6:10:38drink and he will continue with the rest of the tale chiding the wicked on the left for their
6:10:43inhumity and sterile lives to them it will be said "Depart from me you a cursed into the eternal hell
6:10:49into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels." End quote yet there are
6:10:54others who actually do not need this chastening fire he continues stating quote by pleading "Do
6:11:00not chasten me in your anger." The psalmist asks "Purify me in this life and make me such
6:11:05that I will not need that chastening fire." This prayer he makes with an eye to those who will be
6:11:10saved but only as through fire and why because here on earth they have built on a foundation of
6:11:15wood or hay or straw they ought to have built on gold or silver or precious stones and then they
6:11:22would have been safe from both kinds of fire not only the eternal fire which will torture the impas
6:11:27forever but even that which will chasen those who have been saved through it scripture says of the
6:11:33shoddy builder he himself will be saved indeed though it be through fire end quote he goes on
6:11:39to speculate about the nature of the purgatorial fires stating that these purgatorial fires will
6:11:44be a chastening more painful than any of the sufferings which we could possibly endure on
6:11:49earth he states quote "Perhaps some people may trivialize this fire because scripture says he
6:11:55will be saved yet even though it will be for some the means of salvation that fire will nevertheless
6:12:01be harder to bear than anything we can endure in this life think about it how grievously the
6:12:06wicked have suffered and can suffer here yet for all that they suffer no more grievously
6:12:11than good people do what has any criminal any thief adulterer villain or sacriiggious rascal
6:12:18ever suffered under the law which a martyr has not also suffered for confessing Christ
6:12:23the evils that threaten us here are far more tolerable yet look how people will do whatever
6:12:28you order them in order to escape such pains how much better advised would they be to do what God
6:12:34orders them to escape far more severe penalties end quote the major text in which St augustine
6:12:40discusses purgatory is in City of God book 21 remember as I stated above we'll see it again in
6:12:46this section for Catholic theology purgatorial punishments are not merely punishments which
6:12:51occur after death rather there are purgatorial punishments which occur in this life and there
6:12:56are purgatorial punishments which will occur after death those who suffer purgatorial punishments in
6:13:01this life especially the martyrs will not suffer purgatorial punishments after death this is what
6:13:06St augustine meant to reference when he referenced those who toil up to the end of this life and also
6:13:12to those who avoid the purgatorial punishments and this is why he praised God in that commentary
6:13:17on Psalm 37 that we just read that he deliver him from those purgatorial punishments from the
6:13:23fire which chasens we actually see this in St augustine's own life before St augustine died
6:13:29while he was in his final illness on his deathbed he sat for 10 days not having his friends visit
6:13:36so he could sit and pray the penitential psalms over and over and over again why did he do this
6:13:43well he did this to chasen himself he did this to suffer purgatorial pains in this life and not the
6:13:48next because as he says in his commentary the pains of the purgatorial fire in the next life
6:13:54will be worse than any pain any man could suffer on earth now does this seem like somebody who
6:14:01doubts purgatory does this seem like somebody who thought purgatory was a mere opinion of course not
6:14:07st augustine held very firmly to this teaching on purgatory throughout his early life but now let's
6:14:13get into city of god book 21 as I mentioned in order to understand city of god book 21 we need to
6:14:20understand as I briefly mentioned above the three stages of pgation in Catholic theology there are
6:14:26three stages of pgation first there is the pgation which occurs in this life second there is the
6:14:32pgation which occurs afterlife which is normally called purgatory and third there is the purggation
6:14:37of forgiveness which occurs at the final judgment or on the other hand there is the fire which burns
6:14:43the damned at the final judgment this is actually how St augustine interprets 1 Corinthians 3 many
6:14:49may look at one or two different texts where St augustine discusses 1 Corinthians 3 and may be
6:14:54convinced that he didn't have a sure reading on this or he may be convinced that he simply read
6:14:59this as referring to the purggations which come in this life but when one reads the entirety of
6:15:05the works of St augustine when one reads all of the different sections where he discusses it he
6:15:11frequently goes between the three readings he felt that 1 Corinthians 3 was talking about the
6:15:16purgatorial fire in an extensive sense so that it could refer either to those pgations which
6:15:21happened in this life or to the purggations which happened after this life or the purggations which
6:15:27happened at the final judgment it could refer to either of the three and depending on who
6:15:32he was arguing against or which pastoral point or theological point he was making he would refer to
6:15:37one or the other reading on the other hand there actually was a text that St augustine strictly
6:15:42only referred to as what we call purgatory with and this is Matthew 12:32 now he begins
6:15:49his discussion on purggation back at the end of book 20 where he promises to discuss it more
6:15:55extensively in book 21 he references a certain purifying which occurs in the book of Malachi
6:16:01so this is another text in which he referred to purgatory from and while executing this text he
6:16:06said quote the prophet Malachi predicts the last judgment saying he is like a refining fire and
6:16:13like the fooler's herb and he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver and he shall purify the
6:16:19sons of Levi and shall refine them as gold and as silver and they shall offer sacrifices to the
6:16:24Lord in justice and the sacrifice of Judah and of Jerusalem shall please the Lord from these
6:16:30words it more evidently appears that some shall in the last judgment suffer some kind of purgatorial
6:16:35punishments similarly Isaiah says quote "The Lord shall wash the filthiness of the sons and
6:16:42daughters of Zion and shall cleanse away the blood from their midst by the spirit of judgment and by
6:16:47the spirit of burning." When he says quote "And he shall purify the sons of Levi etc." He declares
6:16:54that those who shall be purified shall then please the Lord with the sacrifices of righteousness and
6:17:00consequently they themselves shall be purified from their own unrighteousness which made them
6:17:05displeasing to God now they themselves when they shall be purified shall be sacrifices of
6:17:11complete and perfect righteousness for what more acceptable offerings can such persons
6:17:16make to God than themselves but this question of purgatorial punishments we must defer to someone
6:17:22but this question of purgatorial punishments we must defer to another time give it a more
6:17:26adequate treatment by the sons of Levi and Judah in Jerusalem we ought to understand the church
6:17:32herself gathered not from the Hebrews only but from the other nations as well end quote now while
6:17:37book 20 is meant to discuss the final judgment books 20 and 22 are meant to discuss hell and
6:17:43heaven respectively so book 21 is where he more extensively treats the purgatorial fires now the
6:17:50beginning of book 21 is really concerned with the fires of hell whether fire corporeal fire in hell
6:17:57could somehow burn a soul or a demon uh that's what it's concerned with it's not really concerned
6:18:03with the question of purgatorial fires but anyways after this point he has to get into the question
6:18:09of the kind of punishment and the duration of punishment because there were many errors floating
6:18:14around on the duration of punishment now because he had to discuss the duration of punishment and
6:18:20he obviously had to discuss whether there could be or whether there was temporal punishment because
6:18:25many of those who were justifying some type of orinism or some type of other heretical belief
6:18:31were going to bring forward arguments which relied upon a bastardized version of purgatory some of
6:18:38these taught that all punishments from God were purgatorial punishments and other of these have
6:18:45a bastardized reading of 1 Corinthians 3 when it talks about the foundation being Christ they read
6:18:51that the foundation being Christ might mean that they were baptized or that they had membership
6:18:56in the church or maybe they simply had faith and they committed mortal sins or they schism from the
6:19:02church or were heretics or many other cases yet they would be saved by fire they interpreted the
6:19:07purgatorial fire as somehow burning away mortal sin so St augustine had to deal with both of these
6:19:14problems he had to deal with the first problem by saying that the purgatorial fire was only temporal
6:19:19and that the punishing fire was eternal and he had to deal with the other argument by saying that
6:19:24it was only venial sins which were remitted in purgatory not mortal sins which were punished with
6:19:29eternal hellfire now what's interesting is he deals with this question a lot more in his work
6:19:34on faith and works where he refuts this false reading of the foundation being Christ he obvious
6:19:41he argues that the foundation being Christ means that one has faith which works by love not that
6:19:46that's not that one simply has faith alone or baptism or membership in the church or anything
6:19:52like that and that the wood hay and stubble are all of those things which are venal faults which
6:19:59are temporal attachments and so on and so forth and these have to be purged by fire the fire as we
6:20:05went over above either on this earth in the life to come or at the final judgment now when he deals
6:20:11with the first group the originist who argued that the first punishment would be purgatorial he says
6:20:15quote "For our part we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial temporary
6:20:22punishments are suffered by some in this life only by others after death by others both now and then
6:20:29but all of them before the last in strictest judgment but of all those who suffer temporary
6:20:35punishments after death all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow
6:20:40that judgment for to some as we have already said what is not remitted in this world is remitted in
6:20:47the next that is they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come end quote
6:20:53how much clearer could this get really how much clearer could this get but anyways let's continue
6:20:57there's very clearly some sort of purgatorial punishment which is temporary which is after
6:21:03death which follows the temporary purgatorial punishments which are suffered in this life is a
6:21:08completely coherent reading of St augustine and as we'll see this is simply what he says in his other
6:21:13writings as well in chapter 14 he excludes anybody from suffering temporal punishments in this life
6:21:20he points out infants who even while infants have not committed any personal sins and even
6:21:26if they are baptized they still suffer from things like sickness disease and even death in chapters
6:21:3115 and 16 he sets the theological groundwork for considering who those are which suffer the
6:21:38purgatorial pains he first considers baptized infants he says that baptized infants like the
6:21:44martyrs we mentioned above do not suffer from any of the purgatorial pains in the next life because
6:21:50the sanctifying grace which they have in their soul the impartation of the justice of Christ
6:21:56is sufficient to deliver them from any sort of punishment he writes quote "Although the present
6:22:02life be immediately brought to an end the child having been translated from the power of darkness
6:22:07to the kingdom of Christ shall not only be saved from eternal punishments but shall not even suffer
6:22:13purgatorial torments after death for spiritual regeneration of itself suffices to prevent any
6:22:19evil consequences resulting after death from the connection with death which carnal generation
6:22:25forms." End quote now when it comes to adults he begins by a discussion of the incarnation and the
6:22:31effects of incarnation in giving grace to us he writes quote "There is but one son of God
6:22:37by nature who in his compassion became son of man for our sakes that we by nature sons of men might
6:22:43by grace become through him sons of God for he abiding unchangeable took upon him our nature and
6:22:50thereby he might take us to himself and holding fast his own divinity he became partaker of our
6:22:56infirmity that we being changed into some better thing might by participating in his righteousness
6:23:02in immortality lose our own properties of sin immortality and preserve whatever good quality
6:23:09he had implanted in our nature perfected now by sharing in the goodness of his nature
6:23:14for as by the sin of one man we have fallen into a misery so deplorable so by the righteousness
6:23:19of one man who also is God shall we come to a blessedness inconceivably exalted." End quote
6:23:27now as I mentioned above this righteousness which is given to us is sufficient of itself
6:23:33to prevent both temporal and eternal punishments yet this righteousness does not drive away all of
6:23:40the concupisence which we have remaining in the flesh so therefore the effect of concubisence in
6:23:46bringing about venial sins in us us committing venial sins brings about a need for punishment
6:23:53a need for cleansing us from this unrighteousness thus we need to extinguish this guilt by penance
6:24:00in this life and we need to fight against the flesh in order not to incur more of this debt
6:24:06he writes quote "Nor ought anyone to trust that he has passed from the one man to the other until he
6:24:13shall have reached that place where there is no temptation and have entered into the peace which
6:24:18shall seek in the many and various conflicts of this war in which the flesh lusts against
6:24:23the spirit and the spirit against the flesh in its misery human nature makes war upon itself because
6:24:29in its blessedness it would not continue at peace with God and this though it be a miserable
6:24:35calamity is better than the earlier stages of this life which do not recognize that a war is to be
6:24:41maintained for better it is to contend with vices than without conflict to be subdued by them better
6:24:48I say is war with the hope of peace everlasting than captivity without any thought of deliverance
6:24:55we long indeed for the sessation of this war and kindled by the flame of divine love we burn
6:25:00for entrance on that well-ordered peace in which whatever is inferior is forever subordinated to
6:25:07what is above it." End quote now that he set these principles he goes into concretely how this looks
6:25:14for those who have surpassed the age of reason he mentioned above that sanctifying grace something
6:25:19which is sufficient of itself to eliminate both the temporal and eternal punishments due to sin
6:25:27yet we incur more of these temporal punishments when we commit venial sins after we grow past the
6:25:32age of reason so we need to have that toil in this life and the purgatorial fires in the life to come
6:25:39he writes quote "When we reach that age which can now comprehend the commandment and submit
6:25:45to the domain of law we must declare war upon vices and wage this war keenly lest we landed
6:25:51in damnable mortal sins." And if vices have not gathered strength by habitual victory they are
6:25:58more easily overcome and subdued but if they have been used to conquer and rule it is only with
6:26:04difficulty and labor they are mastered and indeed this victory cannot be sincerely and truly gained
6:26:09but by delighting in true righteousness and it is faith in Christ that gives this for if the law be
6:26:16present with its command and the spirit be absent with his help the presence of the prohibition
6:26:22serves only to increase the desire to sin and adds the guilt of transgression few indeed are those
6:26:28who are so happy as to have passed their youth without committing any damnable sins either by
6:26:33dissolute or violent conduct or by following some godless and unlawful opinions but have subdued by
6:26:39their greatness of soul everything in them which could make them the slaves of carnal pleasures the
6:26:45greater number having first become transgressors of the law that they have received and having
6:26:50allowed vice to have the ascendancy in them then flee to grace for help and so by a penitence more
6:26:56bitter and a struggle more violent than it would have otherwise have been they subdue the soul to
6:27:02God and thus give it its lawful authority over the flesh and become victors whoever therefore
6:27:08desires to escape eternal punishment let him not only be baptized but also justified in Christ and
6:27:15so let him in truth pass from the devil to Christ and let him not fancy that there are
6:27:20any purgatorial pains except before that final and dreadful judgment end quote here he gives us those
6:27:28who will actually suffer the purgatorial fire as I mentioned above for St augustine as we see in this
6:27:33text as well there is a triple harmony of soul there is the higher faculty to God and there's
6:27:39the lower faculties to the higher faculties of the soul the flesh to the soul the soul to God so when
6:27:46the flesh overtakes the soul and submits it to itself this is mortal sin and this is punished by
6:27:53eternal fire but as we see in this text when there is a fight and war against the flesh and
6:27:58the flesh does not overtake the soul there is only purgatorial fires unless through this life
6:28:04there is an extraordinary expedation of all of these punishments at this point he refutes five
6:28:10different positions one those who believe that all souls are going to go through a purgatorial
6:28:15fire two those who believe that the saints will pray for those damned at the final judgment and
6:28:20save them three those who believe that purgatory is a get into heaven free card for those who have
6:28:25been baptized four that purgatory is a get into heavenree card for those who have been a member
6:28:30of the Catholic Church five those who think that almsgiving and praying the Lord's Prayer will be
6:28:34enough to heal mortal sins now in the midst of refuting these points St augustine gives
6:28:39us a few more points on purgatory first when he writes against the third and the fourth heresies
6:28:45St augustine gives us some more information about what it means to have foundation in Christ that
6:28:50the foundation of Christ in 1 Corinthians 3 is referring to sanctifying grace in another place
6:28:57in his commentary on Psalm 118 he explains this very vividly he states quote "One who builds upon
6:29:03this foundation with wood or hay or straw will be saved through fire he does not however reject
6:29:08the foundation or abandon it after receiving it he values the foundation above all his carnal
6:29:13desires which he is captivated by and succumbs to when he reaches that critical point where he must
6:29:19choose to either abandon those desires or Christ if Christ is not preferred then Christ is not his
6:29:24foundation for the foundation is placed before all other parts of the structure end quote he explains
6:29:31in basically the same way in this book book 21 of City of God in sermon 362 and in his commentaries
6:29:38on Psalm 29 and 80 so if you want to read more about this you can check those out for yourself
6:29:43but basically he describes it at length especially in his work on faith and works as returning to
6:29:49faith and not merely faith but faith which works by love and is fruitful and fights against the
6:29:55flesh and is not subdued by the flesh that is not one that falls into mortal sin second when
6:30:01he is contradicting the fifth heresy he actually goes into much more detail about the distinction
6:30:06between venial sin and mortal sin mortal sin are those sins which destroy Christ as the foundation
6:30:11of the soul and venial sins are those which merely build upon it certain hay wood stubble etc and
6:30:19this hay wood and stubble is burned away either in this life in the purggation which occurs in this
6:30:24life by penance or in the life to come through purgatory third when he contradicts the second
6:30:31heresy he actually goes into a bit of detail about praying for the dead praying and sacrificing and
6:30:37giving alms for the dead are said to be beneficial for the dead and St augustine constantly defends
6:30:42this practice throughout his works and this for St augustine while the exegetical foundation is
6:30:48found in 1 Corinthians 3 and Matthew 12 and the theological foundation is founded as opposition to
6:30:53the plagians this praying for the dead serves as the traditional foundation for St augustine it's
6:31:00something which has been done everywhere since the beginning of the church was established as a
6:31:05custom by the apostles and founds the belief that there can be benefits for the dead he writes quote
6:31:13"For some of the dead indeed the prayer of the church or of pious individuals is heard but it
6:31:18is for those who having been regenerated in Christ did not spend their life so wickedly that they can
6:31:23be judged unworthy of such compassion nor so well that they can be considered to have no need for it
6:31:28as also after the resurrection there will be some of the dead to whom after they have endured the
6:31:34pains proper to the spirits of the dead that is purgatory mercy shall be accorded and a quiddle
6:31:39from the punishment of the eternal fire for were there not some whose sins though not remitted in
6:31:45this life shall be remitted in that which is to come it could not truly be said they shall
6:31:50not be forgiven neither in this world nor in that which is to come matthew 12:32 end quote
6:31:56this is a theme which we see throughout all of the writings of St augustine for example in
6:32:01sermon 172 he says quote "It is not to be doubted though that the dead can be helped by the prayers
6:32:08of holy church and the eucharistic sacrifice and alms distributed for the repose of their spirits
6:32:13so that God may deal with them more mercifully than their sins have deserved." The whole church
6:32:18I mean observes this tradition received from the fathers that prayer should be offered for those
6:32:23who have died in the communion of the body and the blood of Christ whenever their names are mentioned
6:32:28at the sacrifice in the usual place and that it shall be announced that the sacrifice is offered
6:32:33for them when however works of mercy are performed for their sakes who can doubt that this benefits
6:32:39those for whom the prayers are not sent up to God in vain there can be no doubt at all that
6:32:44these things are of value to the departed but to such of them as lived in such a way before
6:32:50they died as would enable them to profit from those things after death for those you see who
6:32:55have departed from their bodies without the faith which works through love and its sacraments acts
6:33:00of piety of this sort are performed in vain while they were still here they lacked the guarantee of
6:33:06this faith either because they did not receive God's grace at all or received it in vain and
6:33:11so stored up for themselves not mercy but wrath so no new merits are won for the dead when their
6:33:17good Christian friends do any work on their behalf but these things are credited to them
6:33:22as a consequence of their preceding merits it was only while they lived here that they could
6:33:27ensure that such things would be of help to them after they ceased to live here end quote
6:33:33these themes in this sermon are common throughout the works of St augustine we actually see them
6:33:38in one place go so far as to state that it doesn't matter the prayers for the dead are
6:33:41not explicitly mentioned in canonical scripture outside of Mcabes he says that even in Mcabes
6:33:48if Mcabes wasn't there that we would still have the universal custom of the church which would
6:33:52be enough to establish their apostolic origin on the one hand the tradition of the church and the
6:33:57practice of the church are not in vain it truly helps those who have died but on the other hand
6:34:03it does not help those who have merited eternal punishment yet as I mentioned above there is a
6:34:09clarification on this point and this clarification comes not only when we mentioned baptized infants
6:34:13who have died in their infancy as we mentioned from City of God book 21 but also when it comes
6:34:19to the martyrs he states of the martyrs quote "The justice of the martyrs is perfect because
6:34:24they have been perfected by their sufferings that's why they aren't prayed for in the church
6:34:29the other faithful departed are prayed for not the martyrs they left the world you see so perfected
6:34:34that they are not our dependents but our advocates end quote this is why for St augustine there's the
6:34:41three-fold distinction as I've mentioned time and time again and as we'll continue to see throughout
6:34:46his works there are those on the one hand who have been so perfected through purggation in this life
6:34:51especially the martyrs that they do not need to suffer purgatorial fire after death they do not
6:34:55need our prayers to get out of purgatory on the other hand there are those who have not suffered
6:35:01enough in this life but who have the foundation in Christ and for these they have the purgatorial
6:35:06punishments after life and we need to continually pray and offer the sacrifice of the mass for the
6:35:11propitiation of their sins and yes by the way St augustine does use the term propitiation to refer
6:35:17to the removal of these sins and on the other hand there are those who have lived a wicked
6:35:22life who do not have the foundation of Christ and when it comes to these these are only punished
6:35:28by eternal fire there's no hope in praying for these individuals because their end is fixed now
6:35:34this teaching on prayers for the dead is most touchingly seen in his confessions after his
6:35:38mother dies he commends his mother to the prayers of the reader now I really like this section i'm
6:35:44not supposed to read sections this long in a video but you know I just like this section so much it's
6:35:49my video i'm going to read it anyways he states quote I pour out unto you oh our God on behalf
6:35:55of your handmaidaden tears of a far different sort even that which flows from a spirit broken by the
6:36:00thoughts of the dangers of every soul that dies in Adam and though she having been made alive in
6:36:06Christ even before she was freed from the flesh had so lived as to praise your name both by her
6:36:12faith and conversation yet dare I not say that from the time you regenerated her by baptism
6:36:19no word went forth from her mouth against your precepts i then oh my praise in my life thou God
6:36:24of my heart putting aside for a little her good deeds of which I joyfully give thanks to you do
6:36:30now beseech you for the sins of my mother hearken unto me through that medicine of our wounds who
6:36:36hung upon the tree she only desired to have her name remembered at your altar which she had served
6:36:43without a mission of a single day whence she knew that the holy sacrifice was dispensed by which the
6:36:49handwriting that was against us is blotted out by which the enemy was triumphed over who summing up
6:36:56our offenses and searching for something to bring against us found nothing in him in whom we conquer
6:37:03who will restore to him the innocent blood who will repay him the price with which he bought
6:37:08us so as to take us from him unto the sacrament of which our ransom did your handmaiden bind her soul
6:37:14by the bond of faith unto the sacrament of which our ransom did your handmade bind her soul by
6:37:20the bond of faith let none separate her from your protection inspire oh my lord my God inspire your
6:37:27servants my brethren your sons my masters who with voice and heart and writings I serve that so many
6:37:34of them as shall read these confessions may at your altar remember Monica your handmmaid together
6:37:40with Patricius her sometime husband by whose flesh you introduced me into this life in what
6:37:46manner I know not may they with pious affection be mindful of my parents in this transitory light
6:37:53of my brethren that are under you our father in our Catholic mother and of my fellow citizens
6:37:59in the eternal Jerusalem which the wandering of your people size for from their departure
6:38:05until their return that so my mother's last in treaty to me may through my confessions more than
6:38:12through my prayers be more abundantly fulfilled to her through the prayers of many end quote
6:38:18Now beside all of this there is an objection as I mentioned above that is usually given from
6:38:24St augustine's handbook and in St augustine's handbook it is claimed that in his handbook he
6:38:30revealed the fact that he wasn't too sure about purgatory now on the face of things it's quite
6:38:35ridiculous to assert this well why because from the year 388 all the way to the 420s when this
6:38:43text is written St augustine had consistently and constantly taught purgatory in a number
6:38:49of different contexts in a number of different works why after almost four decades of teaching
6:38:55purgatory would he somehow put this into question and say this is mere speculation when he had
6:39:01spoken with such certainty at other times he said we can be most certain we can be certain he quotes
6:39:07various texts in scripture especially Matthew 12 he states that the opposite position is somehow
6:39:12savoring of the plagian heresy how could he claim that this is oh mere speculation and he's not at
6:39:19all certain about this it's ridiculous but even more ridiculous is that when we read the work in
6:39:26which this quote is a part of the handbook we see that it states in multiple places that purgatory
6:39:33is true so the reading that St augustine somehow was doubting purgatory is quite improbable but
6:39:40we need to read the text itself when we look in chapter 29 of this work we see that St augustine
6:39:46discusses the time between death and the final judgment and in this time between death and the
6:39:53final judgment on the basis of the prayers of the church and on the basis of the ex Jesus
6:39:59of scripture St augustine very clearly states his belief in purgatory he begins this text by saying
6:40:06quote "Now for the time that intervenes between man's death and the final resurrection there is
6:40:11a secret shelter for his soul as each is worthy of rest or affliction according to what it has
6:40:16merited while it lived in the body." End quote so we see here first that he is very much discussing
6:40:22the time after death and before the final judgment he goes on to say quote "There is no denying that
6:40:30the souls of the dead are benefited by the piety of their living friends when the sacrifice of the
6:40:35mediator is offered for the dead or alms are giving in the church so he introduces the idea
6:40:40of prayers for the dead in fact he introduces the idea of offering the sacrifice for the dead which
6:40:46is in reference to the sacrifice of the mass he then goes on to clarify the three different modes
6:40:51of life for which these prayers and offerings are offered for and three corresponding places after
6:40:58death and then he'll go on to talk about three possible benefits for those in in these three
6:41:03states he says quote "But these means benefit only those who while they were living have merited that
6:41:10such services could be of help to them for there is a mode of life that is neither so
6:41:15good as not to need such helps after death nor so bad as not to gain benefit from them after death
6:41:22there is however a good mode of life that does not need such helps and again one so thoroughly
6:41:27bad that when such a man departs this life such helps avail nothing so he has three different
6:41:32groups he has the first group which is obviously those in heaven he has the second group which are
6:41:38those in purgatory and he has a third group which are those in hell because those in hell
6:41:42cannot be helped those in heaven don't need the help it is only those in purgatory who need the
6:41:47help and he goes on to explain what these kinds of helps are he states quote "Accordingly when
6:41:53sacrifices whether of the altar or of alms are offered for the baptized dead they are thank
6:41:59offerings for the very good that is the martyrs propitiations for the not so very bad that is
6:42:04those in purgatory and as for the very bad that is those in hell even if they are of no help to the
6:42:10dead they are at least a sort of consolation to the living where they are of value their benefit
6:42:16consists either in obtaining a full forgiveness or at least in making damnation more tolerable."
6:42:21End quote so here very obviously not only does he think that the eucharistic sacrifice is offered
6:42:27for the dead not only does he think alms are offered for the dead and prayers for the dead
6:42:31but he also thinks that these are propitiations and that these bring about a full remission of
6:42:36sin how much clearer could this be the Catholic teaching yet he discusses this topic much earlier
6:42:41in the book starting in chapter 64 he begins by the admission of the universality of the fall and
6:42:48then he goes on to distinguish between two types of sin as we've seen time and time again between
6:42:53on the one hand mortal sin and on the other hand venial sin he writes quote like children of men
6:42:59they fall back on themselves under certain human impulses even in their spirit especially since
6:43:04it is weighed down by the corruptible body and so they sin but there are differences in degree
6:43:10since although every crime is a sin not every sin is a crime hence we say that the lives of holy
6:43:16men for as long as they live in this death can be found to be without crime end quote the nature of
6:43:21these crimes is very precisely outlined by St augustine depending on their effect and their
6:43:26degree of ecclesiastical punishment he states quote "But we should not despair of God's mercy
6:43:32for the forgiveness of actual crimes however great in the holy church for those who do penance each
6:43:38in a way appropriate to his sin but in works of penance when a sin has been committed of such a
6:43:44kind that he who committed it is also cut off from the body of Christ times of penance are rightly
6:43:49established by those who govern the church so that satisfaction may be made also to the church
6:43:54in which sins themselves are forgiven." Indeed outside the church they are not forgiven for it
6:44:00is the church that has received the Holy Spirit as her own as a pledge without which no sins are
6:44:06forgiven in such a way that those to whom they are forgiven receive eternal life end quote at this
6:44:12point St augustine begins to discuss purgatory in the 66th chapter he says quote "Many sins are
6:44:18pardoned here and not avenged with any punishments but their penalties are reserved for the future
6:44:24and it is not in vain that that day when the judge of the living and the dead will come
6:44:28has as its proper name the day of judgment just as on the contrary there are some sins that are
6:44:34punished here and if they are forgiven they will certainly do no harm in the world to come that is
6:44:39why the apostle says concerning certain temporal punishments imposed on those who win this life to
6:44:45those whose sins are forgiven and not reserved for the final judgment etc end quote here there
6:44:50are two groups which are pardoned first there is the group which is pardoned in this life and
6:44:55not in the life to come second there are those who are pardoned in this life but punished in
6:45:00the life to come these are all described as temporal punishments this is very clearly a
6:45:05reference to purgatory the second category of these punishments are described in chapters
6:45:0967 and 68 which we above saw as the first type of pgation the purggation in this life and the second
6:45:17category of punishment is described in chapter 69 which we refer to as purgatory notice just as we
6:45:24saw in the later chapters in this chapter as well St augustine is not speaking obscurely he's not
6:45:30speaking in some sort of hypothetical way rather he's very sure about his teaching when he talks
6:45:36about those who will be punished in the life to come but forgiven in this life in chapters 67
6:45:42and 68 he describes many of the themes we've already went over above especially those who
6:45:47have Christ as the foundation versus those who don't have Christ as the foundation the nature of
6:45:52temporal punishments which happen in this life and through all the trials that are gone through and
6:45:57etc if you remember St augustine interprets the flame of 1 Corinthians 3 in a much broader sense
6:46:04than most modern Catholics usually read it as this is actually the traditional reading of our
6:46:08theologians is that 1 Corinthians 3 is not only in reference to the fire of purggation but is
6:46:15divided into three types of fire as you can see in St thomas's commentary on 1 Corinthians 3 there is
6:46:21the three-fold distinction between the purgatorial fire in this life the fire in the life to come and
6:46:27the fire which happens at the final judgment as he says in another place quote Peter imploring the
6:46:32Lord for help so that he may not sink signifies that the church must be purified by certain
6:46:37tribulations even after the final persecution this is also indicated by Paul when he says he
6:46:44will be saved but only as through fire end quote many Protestants will point to this point to this
6:46:50wider sense of the term fire and somehow pretend like St augustine is denying purgatory in this way
6:46:56of course our own authors you know the authors that are very solidly believers in purgatory
6:47:02also interpret the fire in this way but apparently when it comes to St augustine St augustine cannot
6:47:06have an intelligent form of ex Jesus which has the word used in a broader and then in a more
6:47:11narrow applied sense you know why would we allow such a brilliant mind as St augustine to do this
6:47:17why would we let him speak throughout his whole works where he precisely describes the way in
6:47:21which it's used in these different senses you know why would we do that why wouldn't we just
6:47:25interpret St augustine like he is in a Catholic Answers versus Protestant Twitter battle why would
6:47:31we do that now it is especially in chapter 69 that these Protestants claim that St augustine somehow
6:47:37questioned purgatory although as I said before this is completely ridiculous from just a few
6:47:43chapters before where he affirmed it and also at the end of the same work that he affirmed it and
6:47:46also the 40 years of teaching where he affirmed it throughout a number of different works in a
6:47:51number of different contexts but apparently in this work he happens to question the teaching
6:47:57but let's read the section it's chapter 69 it says quote "Nor is it beyond belief that something of
6:48:03the same kind could happen also after this life and it can be asked if it is the case
6:48:09whether or not an answer can be found that some of the faithful are saved by a purifying fire
6:48:14more or less quickly depending on whether they have loved perishable good things more or less
6:48:19but this does not apply to those of whom it is said that they will not possess the kingdom of
6:48:23God unless those sins are forgiven them and they do suitable penance end quote now in this text St
6:48:30augustine clearly thinks that there are questions which can be asked he says as much he says quote
6:48:35it can be asked if it is the case and he actually states some uncertainty about the answer to this
6:48:42question he says quote whether or not an answer could be found now the Protestants they see this
6:48:49they're saying well he said that you know we don't know whether the case can be found or not
6:48:54he said oh they asked a question and therefore St augustine here is very clearly questioning
6:49:00whether purgatory exists or not but is that what he's asking let's read it again and very slowly
6:49:08let's read it slowly for our Protestant friends it says quote "It can be asked if it is the case
6:49:14whether or not an answer can be found that some of the faithful are saved by a purifying fire more
6:49:20or less quickly." End quote now it may be helpful actually there is a certain clause which separates
6:49:27the entire question you know St augustine had a very complicated sentence style let's remove that
6:49:32middle clause and it might become a little bit clearer to you it could be asked if it is the case
6:49:37that some of the faithful are saved by a purifying fire more or less quickly depending on whether
6:49:42they have loved perishable good things more or less that's interesting what is the question
6:49:47that St augustine is asking let's let's ask the question again let's see if this is very clear
6:49:52for us quote whether some of the faithful are saved by purifying fire more or less quickly so
6:49:58if you're asking whether some of the faithful can be saved by a purifying fire more or less quickly
6:50:05what is the question that's being asked well it's clearly a question being asked about some
6:50:10of the details of purgatory in fact to ask such a question about the details of purgatory affirms
6:50:15belief in purgatory you wouldn't ask the question for example are the fires of hell corporeal unless
6:50:20you believed in hell in the same way you wouldn't ask whether some are relieved more or less quickly
6:50:27depending on more or less attachments whether you believed there was a purgatory obviously
6:50:33the entire question is assuming the existence and this is merely a question on the basis of some of
6:50:38the details not only as I said before should this just be completely obvious from extrinsic evidence
6:50:44because it would be quite ridiculous to have St augustine professing something for 40 years and
6:50:49in a random book he writes for a layman who needs some help in theology he starts speculating he
6:50:55starts saying "Well I'm not I'm actually wasn't sure about it the whole time even though I said
6:50:58that it was certain it was certain it was certain it's certain that the prayers benefit it's certain
6:51:02that mass benefits it's certain that there's perpetuation of this life." And so on and so forth
6:51:06now obviously from extrinsic evidence but even from a plain reading of the intrinsic evidence
6:51:12this should be very clear noel Alexandre a 17th century Dominican theologian writes quote "Both
6:51:18scripture and tradition which are the two rules of faith teach that purgatory should be proposed
6:51:24and preached as a dogma of faith scripture and tradition clearly teach about purgatory therefore
6:51:29it must be proposed and defended as a dogma of the faith furthermore it is not true that St augustine
6:51:35only counted purgatory as a mere opinion his testimony in favor of purgatory is abundant and
6:51:41frequently expressed in his writings even though St augustine sometimes speak cautiously about the
6:51:46specific nature of the punishments in purgatory he never denies its existence end quote now in
6:51:52the beginning of this entire video I mentioned a certain text which St augustine wrote to St sirill
6:51:58and this text was an antipolagian text and this antipolagian text was on purgatory because denial
6:52:05of purgatory was a pelagian error the Plagians thought that one had to be perfectly sinless in
6:52:12order to enter into heaven and if anybody had any sort of sin there was no hope of a purifying fire
6:52:18rather they went straight to hell st augustine explained Pelagius's teaching in his on the
6:52:25proceedings of Pelagius us another statement was read which Pelagius had placed in his book to the
6:52:31effect quote in the day of judgment no forbearance will be shown to the ungodly and the sinners but
6:52:36they will be consumed in eternal fires end quote this induced the brethren to regard the statement
6:52:42as open to the objection that it seemed so worded as to imply that all sinners whatever were to be
6:52:48punished with an eternal punishment without accepting even those who hold Christ as their
6:52:52foundation although they build thereupon wood hay stubble concerning whom the apostle writes "If any
6:52:58man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss but he shall himself be saved yet so as by fire."
6:53:05Since also they were absent who presented the indictment against Pelagius to the Holy Bishop
6:53:10Uloius there was no one to urge him that he ought to distinguish by some exception between those
6:53:16sinners who are saved by fire and those who are purified and those who are punished with
6:53:21everlasting predition end quote in fact Pelagius called any sort of affirmation of a purgatorial
6:53:27fire oristic st st augustine refuted this teaching by showing that all in in many and different ways
6:53:34suffer from venial sins every single day and therefore it would somehow be absurd to state
6:53:38that all sinners suffered from eternal hellfire but rather there are some sinners who only suffer
6:53:44from a temporal fire which is the fires of purgatory now some interpreted St augustine
6:53:50in Alexandria in an originistic sense and this obviously got them worried so St augustine had
6:53:57to follow up and explain his teachings and explain the manner in which he agrees with
6:54:01purgatory and the way in which his denial is said to be pelagium st augustine wrote that his work
6:54:06quote shocked certain people because it argued that not all sinners are punished by eternal
6:54:11fire end quote st augustine first exposes the plagian foundations for denying such a position
6:54:18he says quote "The statement we made that not all sinners but only certain ones are condemned
6:54:23to endless punishment displeases those who say that even in this mortal life there are holy
6:54:28persons without sin as a result they say that they do not need the Lord's prayer." In which
6:54:33the whole church cries out "Forgive us our debts for the forgiveness of their own sins because they
6:54:38have no sins." Your holiness undoubtedly sees that these people must be corrected from the wickedness
6:54:44of their error for it is certain that these ideas stem from that unhealthy Pelagian teaching that
6:54:50claim that all sinners are punished by eternal fire such that no hope of pardon would be left
6:54:55for those who truthfully admit that they are not without sin in that way they either swell up with
6:55:00pride supposing that this life and theirs has no sin or they waste away in despair as if they were
6:55:06already destined for everlasting punishment end quote notice that he clearly teaches that there
6:55:11is a quote hope of pardon which occurs in this next life now is this hope of pardon a simple
6:55:17forgiving of all of the temporal debt due to sin or is there actually some sort of punishment
6:55:23inflicted well St augustine explains himself he says quote "These words of the apostle should
6:55:28be interpreted so that we may understand that was said in terms not of the fire of the last judgment
6:55:35but of a fire before that judgment either in this life or after death." End quote notice that St
6:55:42augustine is very clearly affirming that two-fold fire that we've always went over above that is the
6:55:47purgatorial fire of sufferings in this life and the purgatorial fire which occurs after life but
6:55:53before the final judgment this is very much in line with that broader more extensive reading
6:55:58of 1 Corinthians 3 that St augustine clearly shows throughout his whole works he concludes
6:56:02this by reiterating the fact that the denial of purgatory has pelagian underpinnings he says quote
6:56:09"That error is certainly to be avoided by which all sinners are thought to be destined for the
6:56:14punishment of everlasting fire if they do not live a life here that is utterly without sin we must
6:56:20also be on guard that those who hold this view are not also found to hold other plagian teachings no
6:56:26less unsound or even worse and that their dreadful infection does not spread among unwary people when
6:56:32we do not suppress or heal the evil that the care of brotherly love has discovered in some of them."
6:56:37end quote as a point of conclusion it is completely and utterly absurd to deny that
6:56:42St augustine taught purgatory he teaches it in many places throughout his entire career and he
6:56:47never so much as doubts it uh it's extremely clear and it's pretty much cop to deny this anyways as
6:56:53always God bless there were recently two infamous surveys one done in 2019 and the other done in
6:56:592022 the survey in 2019 found out that 2thirds of professed Catholics in the United States do not
6:57:08believe in transubstantiation and the 2022 survey found that one-third of Masco and Catholics were
6:57:14in the same situation now basically everybody who knows anything about religion knows that
6:57:20the church teaches transubstantiation or at least knows that the church teaches the real presence of
6:57:26Jesus Christ in the Eucharist now when it comes to the sacrifice of the mass this is a much less
6:57:31well-known teaching when I was growing up I always heard about transubstantiation in my Protestant
6:57:36household i heard about the real presence i knew about all that stuff but I never heard
6:57:41about the sacrifice of the mass until I really started studying theology so when it comes to
6:57:46the sacrifice of the mass it is clear that the catechesus on this point is even worse than in
6:57:51other areas yet this is one of the most central aspects to our religion and this video is meant to
6:57:58provide at least a little bit of a remedy to help people catch up on their catechesus surrounding
6:58:03the sacrifice of the mass and when it comes to this catechizus on the sacrifice of the mass this
6:58:09isn't something that's merely useful for debating Protestants or explaining the faith to others in
6:58:15an apologetic situation the sacrifice of the mass is the most efficacious worship that we render
6:58:20unto God the sacrifice of the mass is something that we each go to week after week yet how much
6:58:28do you really know about the sacrifice of the mass well watch the rest of this video and find out
6:58:56[Music]
6:58:57let's get started in order to even understand what the sacrifice of the mass is we need to
6:59:03know what a sacrifice is generally speaking a sacrifice is when you offer something to God
6:59:10so there are going to be three elements to a sacrifice one there's the person offering
6:59:15sometimes this is an individual person who might be offering a sacrifice sometimes it might be a
6:59:21public individual who represents a community uh also known as a priest two you need something
6:59:26to offer this is usually referred to as the victim of the offering and three you need the sacrificial
6:59:33action the sacrificial action has two aspects on the one hand it has immolation immolation is the
6:59:40action which is performed on the victim so in many cases this could be cutting this could be
6:59:47burning it could be killing it could be a lot of different actions on the other hand you have the
6:59:52ablation because not only are you doing something to the victim you're offering this victim up to
6:59:57God so for example if you think about pagan human sacrifices the offer is going to be the priest who
7:00:06is you know stabbing the person the victim is going to be the individual who is on the altar
7:00:12having his heart ripped out the immolation is going to be the ripping out of the heart and the
7:00:18oblation is going to be when they raise the heart up and offer it to their pagan demon deities now
7:00:25when it comes to immolation and oblation these are usually two sides of the same coin uh when
7:00:31you're burning cutting destroying whatever with the victim of the sacrifice you're usually doing
7:00:37that with the intention of offering this up to God another less bloody example we can give is the
7:00:43offering up of incense so you have the individual who is burning the incense uh often times if this
7:00:49is in a lurggical context the individual is a representative for everybody else and he sets
7:00:55the incense on fire and this is the immolation and the incense itself is going to be the victim uh in
7:01:02this offering so in summary generally speaking a sacrifice is when you offer something up to God
7:01:10and there are three aspects to a sacrifice there is the offerer or the priest there is the victim
7:01:16or the thing offered and there's the sacrificial action which is constituted of two parts
7:01:22immolation which destroys the thing and ablation which offers the thing now something that I forgot
7:01:29to mention is why exactly is imilation necessary why do you need to render the object or the victim
7:01:37unusable why do you need to alter it by cutting burning destroying eating or whatever other action
7:01:43you may think of the reason is that sacrifice in its most proper sense recognizes the supreme
7:01:49dominion of what one is offering it to that's why we don't offer proper sacrifices to saints that's
7:01:56why we don't offer proper sacrifices to anybody in this world the reason we don't offer proper
7:02:01sacrifices is because by destroying something of creation by altering it in this way you're
7:02:07showing that that thing has supreme dominion over the entire existence of the victim and therefore
7:02:13if that has supreme dominion it can only be God so this is why sacrifice is the high point of
7:02:20offering this is why sacrifice can only be done to God and this is why we emulate sacrifices
7:02:26we also may use sacrifices in other less proper senses for example sometimes we speak of prayer
7:02:32or worship as sacrifices we speak of somebody sacrificing themselves for their country or
7:02:37making sacrifices for their family or so on and so forth but these are merely metaphorical analogous
7:02:44names given to all of these actions these aren't sacrifice in its most proper sense but anyways
7:02:50let's get back to it so this division of sacrifice actually gives us a pretty good outline it gives
7:02:56us a pretty good list of things to discuss so we can split this up into four sections first who
7:03:02offers the mass second what is offered in the mass third what is the sacrificial action and
7:03:09then fourth we can add something onto this because when it comes to any action we can ask what is the
7:03:14purpose or the end of the action so the fourth section is going to be covering what is the end
7:03:20what are the effects of the sacrifice at the mass in order to give a general overview you'll want
7:03:25to keep this formula in your head when it comes to the offerer or the priest of the sacrifice
7:03:32of the mass it is the same as the offerer or priest of the sacrifice of the cross that is
7:03:38Christ christ is the one who offers the victim in the mass the priest is only a minister of Christ
7:03:45now second when it comes to the victim the victim is the same as the sacrifice of the cross that is
7:03:51Christ's suffering so when it comes to the priest and when it comes to the victim it is the exact
7:03:57same as the sacrifice on the cross now because of this the sacrifice of the cross and the sacrifice
7:04:04of the mass are one sacrifice there is only one sacrifice that is the sacrifice of Christ this is
7:04:12why a lot of the Protestant arguments against the sacrifice of the mass from its opposition to the
7:04:18sacrifice of the cross are merely going to fall short it is only by the operative power of the
7:04:24cross that the sacrifice of the mass has any of its effect not only that but it is actually really
7:04:29identical to it so on the other hand what makes the difference between the sacrifice of
7:04:34the cross and the sacrifice of the mass well the difference is only found in the mode of offering
7:04:40when it comes to the mode of offering when it comes to the sacrificial act it is distinct on the
7:04:45cross it was a bloody sacrifice it was a corporeal sacrifice but when it comes to the sacrifice
7:04:52of the mass it's an unbloody sacrifice it is a sacrifice which is done under mystical symbols
7:04:58the symbols of bread and wine so this gives us our formulation the sacrifice of the mass and the
7:05:03sacrifice of the cross are essentially identical they are essentially identical because they have
7:05:09the same priest and same victim but the sacrifice of the mass and the sacrifice of the cross are
7:05:14modally distinct they are modally distinct because they have a different manner of offering as we saw
7:05:21before there are three elements of sacrifice there is the offerer there is the victim and
7:05:28there is the sacrificial action now as we just went over because there is a unity of the victim
7:05:34which is Christ's suffering and the offer which is Christ as priest the sacrifice of the mass and
7:05:40the sacrifice of the cross are truly one sacrifice but since the sacrificial action the third element
7:05:46is distinct they are modally distinct sacrifices one done in a bloody manner and one done in an
7:05:52unbloody manner the first thing that we must discuss is the one who offers now this might
7:05:58seem extremely easy we just say well we've already mentioned it we mentioned that Christ is the one
7:06:03who offers the mass and that of course is true but in our theological tradition in our spiritual
7:06:09tradition in our lurggical tradition we actually speak of many offerers we speak of Christ offering
7:06:15the mass we speak of the priest offering the mass we speak of the church offering the mass we speak
7:06:20of the faithful offering the mass what does it mean in our spiritual tradition when we as layman
7:06:27are said to offer the body and blood of Christ unto God what does this mean what exactly are
7:06:33we signifying and what are all of these distinct modes and manners in which we're speaking of so
7:06:39it's not as simple as just saying that Christ is the one who offers now when it comes even to the
7:06:45offering of Christ and the relationship between Christ offering the mass and the priest offering
7:06:50the mass there's actually quite a big controversy among Roman Catholic theologians on the one hand
7:06:56we have the Scotists and a few Jesuits and on the other hand we have basically everyone else
7:07:02the different names for these two positions are on the one hand Scott and the Scotists believe
7:07:08that there is a moral concurrence of Christ offering and the priest offering and on the
7:07:15other hand everyone else including the toists say that there is a physical concurrence now these
7:07:20are complicated concepts but I'll try to make it easy with a little bit of an analogy let's say you
7:07:25have a certain king and that king wants to honor a different king so what that king does is he takes
7:07:32his minister and he tells his minister "Go to the other king in my name and honor the other king."
7:07:38He doesn't give him particulars of what to say he doesn't even really give him particulars of what
7:07:43to offer now when the minister goes to the other king and gives him some sort of honor the original
7:07:49king is said to have a moral concurrence in that action the original king sent him in his name and
7:07:56obviously has a general intention that the other king be honored this is the way that the Scottists
7:08:02think about the manner in which Christ is said to be the primary offerer of the mass they say
7:08:07"Well Christ instituted the mass and Christ gave the priest power to transubstantiate the bread
7:08:15and wine into his body and blood." And therefore because of this there isn't an actual physical
7:08:21concurrence in the sacrifice of the mass rather there's just a general moral concurrence he kind
7:08:27of just sends him out in his name and therefore we can speak of Christ in a kind of technical way
7:08:32as the primary offer of the mass because you know he started the institution on the other hand what
7:08:38the vast vast majority of the theologians teach is basically like this you have the king the king
7:08:43sends the minister to the other king to honor him but the king gives him explicit directions and not
7:08:49only gives him these explicit directions but also gives him the very words to say and gives him the
7:08:55very gifts to give now when the minister is saying the very words of the king to the other king and
7:09:01is giving the very gifts that passed into his hands from the other king it truly can be said
7:09:06that the original king is physically concurring in the honor given to the other this is the way that
7:09:12the vast majority of the theologians including all of the toists think about the sacrifice of
7:09:18the mass they say that Christ in his role as our heavenly high priest is at all times and in all
7:09:24places concurring with every single mass that is offered thus at every moment Christ is offering
7:09:32through his hands to the heavenly father every single mass that is offered in his name and by
7:09:38his institution he is always and in all places all throughout the world interceding for us to
7:09:44the father on our behalf he is presenting his own body and blood to the father on our behalf and the
7:09:50priests are mere ministers and it is not their will it is not their gifts that is being offered
7:09:56to the father if the priest is a wicked man the sacrifice of the mass works it's not his will it's
7:10:02not his gifts that make the sacrifice of the mass efficacious rather it's because Christ himself is
7:10:08interceding for us in the heavenly places offering his own body and blood to the father yet we can
7:10:14dive a bit deeper into this mystery if we consider what are called the infused and beatotific
7:10:20knowledges of Christ christ knew all things when he was on earth christ when he was on the cross
7:10:27when his sacred heart was being pierced when he was dying and offering himself up to his heavenly
7:10:33father in that act of will whereby he chose to give up his life in this act of will he was aware
7:10:41of all the masses that would be offered by his commission and in his name so we can say that the
7:10:47very act of willing whereby the body and blood of Christ were offered on the cross is the self-same
7:10:54act of will whereby he willed that all of these various different masses be given from his hands
7:11:01to the father so the very will of Christ dying on the cross is the selfsame and very will of Christ
7:11:09which establishes all of these various sacrifices which are done in an unbloody manner and passed
7:11:16from his hands to the heavenly father now besides Christ in ecclesiastical literature we also see
7:11:23that layman and priests are said to offer the mass now here we can distinguish between imilation and
7:11:32ablation now as I said imilation consists in some sort of authoring of the victim in some
7:11:38sort of destruction that acknowledges the supreme dominion of God but on the other hand offering
7:11:43simply means that you are taking the victim and you are presenting it to the heavenly father to
7:11:49adore him to thank him and to impetrate all of the benefits of God as we will cover in a little bit
7:11:56more detail below the imulation that occurs in the sacrifice of the mass is the fact that there is
7:12:03what's called the double consecration just as the sacrifice of Christ on the cross was the actual
7:12:10separation of his body and blood because that's what a sacrifice is so also in the mass there
7:12:16is the mystical separation of his body and blood there's the sacramental separation of his body and
7:12:22blood and this occurs in the double consecration because over here we have the consecration of
7:12:27bread over here we have the consecration of wine this is actually why if we only had a single
7:12:32consecration let's say the priest just took bread and consecrated his bread there would be the real
7:12:37presence but there would not be the sacrifice so when it comes to this imolation obviously the only
7:12:44one performing this imilation is the priest the priest is the only one who transubstantiates in
7:12:50the person of Christ but on the other hand when it comes to the ablation when it comes to the taking
7:12:55of the victim and offering of the victim unto God the layman can have some sort of moral union with
7:13:02the priest and with Christ who are offering the body and blood to the father so since there can
7:13:08be this moral concurrence we can attach our wills and intentions to the offering of the
7:13:13body and the blood unto God this is the way in which ecclesiastical literature the liturgy and
7:13:19so on and so forth speaks about the offering or oblation of the body and blood unto the
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7:13:57patreon.com/militantist we've already went over quite a few things in this video first
7:14:06we distinguish the three aspects of sacrifice that is offer or priest the thing offered or the victim
7:14:13and then the sacrificial action further we've distinguished between immolation and oblation
7:14:18and the sacrificial action and most recently we've went over the senses in which Christ is
7:14:22said to be the offer of the mass and also in which the priest and even layman are said to
7:14:27be the offer of the mass and now that we've went over the priest who offers the mass we can now go
7:14:34over the victim that is offered in the mass when it comes to the victim that is offered in the mass
7:14:40there really isn't much controversy the victim that is offered in the mass is Christ christ who
7:14:46was sacrificed once upon the cross this victim is present unto us by transubstantiation because the
7:14:53bread turns into his body and the wine turns into his blood and because we have the body and blood
7:14:58of Christ we have the victims that once suffered on the cross the only distinction between the two
7:15:05is that on the cross Christ was present under his own proper appearance or technically speaking his
7:15:12own proper species now when it comes to the sacramental body and blood that are present
7:15:17to us in the mass they're not under their own proper species we don't see a hunk of flesh and
7:15:22a cup of blood in front of us rather it's present under a different species it's present under the
7:15:29species of bread and wine and because of this we sometimes speak in the liturgy in ecclesiastical
7:15:35tradition among the fathers among the theologians sometimes we'll talk about sacrificing bread and
7:15:41wine of course it isn't talking about sacrificing bread and wine as some sort of independent thing
7:15:47rather it's talking about the fact that Christ is here present under the species of bread and
7:15:52wine therefore by some sort of circumlocution we can speak about the sacrifice of bread and
7:15:58wine as a bit of an aside sometimes we also speak of our union or uniting to Christ as
7:16:05victim this is much less common in the spiritual and ecclesiastical literature but it does happen
7:16:11what this means is that we are suffering some sort of pain or anguish externally and we want to unite
7:16:17this pain or anguish to the sufferings of Christ on the cross and morally unite ourselves to him
7:16:24who is suffering that's all that means yet when we combine what we heard about our participation in
7:16:30offering and our participation in being offered we could actually learn a lot about some fundamental
7:16:35misunderstandings that Protestants have about the entire economy of salvation and the purpose of
7:16:42Christ being sacrificed on the cross we can distinguish between two aspects of Christ's
7:16:48mediation on the one hand you have the descending mediation of Christ on the other hand you have the
7:16:53ascending mediation of Christ in the descending mediation of Christ he is bringing certain things
7:16:58down from God to us this would be the various graces and blessings that Christ brings down to
7:17:05us on the other hand in the ascending mediation of God Christ brings something from us to God
7:17:11he's bringing our various thanksgivings and worships and offerings and sacrifices and he's
7:17:18taking them into his hands and bringing them up to the heavenly father this is where the Protestant
7:17:23confusion becomes obvious when it comes to the descending mediation of Christ this is the way of
7:17:29the sacraments the sacraments bring us sanctifying grace which is meant to make us holy when it comes
7:17:35to the ascending mediation of Christ this isn't about sacrament this is about sacrifice sacrifice
7:17:41is not for us sacrifice is something that we give to God and it comes through the hands of Christ
7:17:48the pleasing sacrifice is the sacrifice of the cross and the ascending mediation of Christ is
7:17:54the basis for the descending mediation of Christ christ offered his body and blood in love to the
7:18:01heavenly father and because of this the wrath of God was placadated and this sacrifice to God
7:18:07is what makes God disposed to rain down those heavenly blessings these heavenly blessings
7:18:13which come from the hand of Christ to us that is sanctifying grace it makes God want to wipe away
7:18:19the guilt that we have it makes God not want to give the eternal punishment to those things that
7:18:25we do and as a bit of a cyclical motion Christ offers himself to the father the father reigns
7:18:31down blessings on us through Christ and actually because these blessings are not fruitless but
7:18:37fruitful we are motivated from this to offer our worship to God but of course this worship to God
7:18:45comes through the hands of Christ and because it comes through the hands of Christ it is pleasing
7:18:50to God so this is why our works and our prayers and everything else our sacrifices are all worth
7:18:57something in the eyes of God because they are motivated by his blessings and they come to him
7:19:03from the hands of Christ we would not even be able to do any good works if it wasn't for the grace
7:19:09of God working within us both to will and to work and our willing and working would not be anything
7:19:14before God if it didn't come to God through the intercession of our Lord Jesus Christ this is why
7:19:20we speak of a two-fold basis of merit on the one hand Christ brings to us a certain participation
7:19:28in the divine nature and this participation in the divine nature is sanctifying grace it's the grace
7:19:34which makes us holy but on the other hand since Christ is our high priest since Christ is the head
7:19:39of the church when we motivated by the sanctifying grace offer up works prayers and sacrifices unto
7:19:46God not only did the virtue which makes all of these possible come through the hands of Christ
7:19:53but the works as imperfect as they are coming from our hands go up to God through the hands
7:19:58of Christ and it is only on this basis that they are worthy the Christian religion would not be
7:20:03complete without either aspect if we had sacrament without sacrifice the Christian religion would
7:20:10be completely fruitless we would offer nothing up to God we would merely receive from God but if we
7:20:17had sacrifice without sacrament there would be no basis for our worship there would be nothing which
7:20:23draws us up to the heavenly places through Christ it would be completely unintelligible for us to
7:20:29raise our hearts up to God if he had not descended to us first so we need both the descending
7:20:36mediation in the sacrament and the ascending mediation in the sacrifice we need the descending
7:20:42mediation in Christ coming to us in suffering and we need the ascending mediation in so far as he
7:20:48intercedes for us on our behalf both of these elements are sublimely present in the holy mass
7:20:55on the one hand Christ presents himself to the heavenly father through the ministry of a priest
7:21:01under the species of bread and wine we unite ourselves to this offering we unite ourselves
7:21:07to it in order to adore God through the hands of Christ we do it in order to thank him for his many
7:21:13blessings that we've received we do it in order to beg him for certain benefits we do it in order
7:21:19to ask him for forgiveness for our many sins and all these go up to God through the hands of Christ
7:21:25on the one hand Christ brings our offerings and intentions all the way up to the heavenly throne
7:21:31room all the way up to God the father but on the other hand he also brings God the father
7:21:37he brings the divinity a certain participation and share in the divinity down to us through the
7:21:43sacrament wherein we receive sacramental grace we do not leave without the pledge and gift of
7:21:49our redemption which is the very body and blood of Christ which we receive through the Eucharist
7:21:55and we receive this in order to be blessed and sanctified this actually gives us a good entrance
7:22:01into our next discussion we've already went over above how Christ is the offerer and the various
7:22:08manners and ways in which we speak about priests or even us being offerers of the mass we've also
7:22:14went over how Christ is the victim and then we attach these two things to the way in which the
7:22:20economy of salvation works the way in which the ascending and the descending mediation of Christ
7:22:25functions in the economy of salvation and how both of these aspects are sublimely found in the most
7:22:31holy Eucharist but we still haven't went over the sacrificial action as for the sacrificial action
7:22:37there's actually been quite a few theologians who unfortunately aired on this point this has been
7:22:42a very complicated question that was debated for a very long time until venerable pious I
7:22:4712th put an end to it the difficulty is this we spoke about above that emilation is some sort
7:22:54of destruction when you emulate a grain offering you burn the grain offering when you emulate the
7:23:00offering of a lamb you eat the lamb so what is the imolation that's found in the Eucharist well
7:23:08for some theologians the reason that imilation in the old covenant often took the form of eating so
7:23:15therefore when it comes to the Eucharist our immolation of the sacrifice is found in our
7:23:19eating and our drinking this is the destruction of the sacrifice this is the destruction of the
7:23:24symbols of the sacrifice so it seems like when it comes to the eating of the bread and wine
7:23:30that this should be such an essential part of the sacrifice of the mass that it actually should be
7:23:36a constitutive part of the sacrifice of the mass not merely for its integrity for it to go through
7:23:42all of the ceremonies that are necessary to be a good sacrifice to the mass but actually this is
7:23:49an essential part of it to where if you don't have the eating of the bread and the drinking
7:23:53of the wine therefore the sacrifice doesn't occur this was the position that was taken by St robert
7:23:58Bellerin and St alfonsus Lagori two doctors of the church but is this correct well as we went
7:24:05over above this was excluded by venerable pest 12 so what is the correct answer how is there
7:24:12immolation of the Eucharist well this problem was solved a very long time ago by St thomas
7:24:18Aquinas then it was repeated by Cardinal Thomas de Vio Kagetin kagetin repeating what St thomas
7:24:25said basically held that this is done by mystical immolation well what is mystical emilation sounds
7:24:33like it's a throwaway term that really doesn't say anything well think about it in the Eucharist you
7:24:38have the two-fold consecration you have the consecration of bread and the body is under
7:24:44the species of that bread under the appearances of that bread and on the other hand you have wine and
7:24:49blood is under the species of that wine well when you look throughout sacred scripture what is the
7:24:54blood of something well the blood is the life of something so what is another word for death well
7:24:59another word for death is the shedding of blood when you have the separation of blood from body
7:25:04you have the death of that thing so the separation of blood and body is sufficient for immolation in
7:25:11fact it is the normative means of immolation and on the cross when Christ's body and blood were
7:25:17separated that's when he was immolated and offered himself up to the father so in the Eucharist when
7:25:24you have on the one hand the consecration of the bread and on the other hand the consecration of
7:25:29the wine you have a two-fold consecration and this two-fold consecration under the symbols
7:25:36of bread and wine a sacramental separation of body and blood and therefore since there is the
7:25:42sacramental separation this is truly an immation now why do we call it a mystical imilation well
7:25:49the reason we call it this is because this is an outward symbolic separation but the symbols
7:25:56truly and really under their appearances contain the things they signify that's all that mystical
7:26:03separation means i'll give you an example this might help make you get it so let's say we had
7:26:08some sort of movie and this movie was of the passion of Christ we had Christ in front of
7:26:13our eyes in a symbolic way sacrificed for us we have a symbolic sacrifice in front of our eyes we
7:26:21have a dramatic presentation of the sacrifice of Christ is this a sacrifice is this an immulation
7:26:28happening before our eyes no it's merely a representation of it it's merely a movie about it
7:26:34but since in the separation of the blood and in the separation of the body under the symbols
7:26:39of bread and wine because we have this symbolic separation which really contains what it signifies
7:26:46we truly can say that we have an immation here so this is all that's meant by mystical
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7:27:25more so far in this video we've went over the nature of sacrifice in general we went over the
7:27:35form or essence of the sacrifice of the mass which is found in the double consecration further we've
7:27:41went over the efficient cause which is Christ as priest who is offering the mass as primary
7:27:47offerer and lastly we went over the material cause which is Christ as victim suffering on the cross
7:27:54so what is there left to cover because we went over all three parts of the sacrifice of the mass
7:28:00well we can still cover as we said before the ends the purposes the effects of the sacrifice
7:28:06of the mass what is it for in order to understand the meaning and the purpose of the sacrifice of
7:28:12the mass the ends of the sacrifice of the mass we have to remember that this is part
7:28:16of the ascending mediation of Christ this isn't about what is brought down to us principally but
7:28:23rather what is it meant to do in relation to God what is it meant to do to God what is it
7:28:29meant to offer to God that's the question that we have to ask we have to always keep in mind that a
7:28:34sacrifice is an offering to God then we will not fall into the various Protestant confusions the
7:28:41text that tells us the most about this is Malachi 1:11 it reads quote "From the rising of the sun
7:28:48even to the going down my name is great among the Gentiles and in every place there is sacrifice and
7:28:54there is offered to my name a clean oblation for my name is great among the Gentiles sayeth the
7:28:59Lord of hosts end quote this is supposed to be a prophecy about the future church this is why most
7:29:05translations will translate the present tense is as the prophetic future shall be so there shall be
7:29:12a pure oblation a clean oblation which is offered among the Gentiles in all places now traditionally
7:29:19this has always been interpreted as the eukarist We could give plenty of individual exoggetical
7:29:24arguments and I might do a future video about this we're going to assume for a minute that this
7:29:28is about the Eucharist the Protestant might very much agree that this is about the Eucharist since
7:29:33from the very early times this has been applied to the Eucharist but they will argue that this
7:29:39is merely a sacrifice of thanksgiving they will argue that this is merely in reference to the
7:29:44application of the fruits of the cross well as we went over above the applications of the fruits of
7:29:49the cross is about the descending mediation of Christ and therefore isn't even about sacrifice
7:29:53which is why I told you it's important to keep in mind the distinction between the ascending
7:29:56and descending mediation between the Eucharist as sacrament the Eucharist as sacrifice but anyways
7:30:01this is what they'll argue argue that this is merely a sacrifice of adoration and thanksgiving
7:30:06that Malachi is talking about but this doesn't make any sense and the reason that this doesn't
7:30:12make any sense is that this clean oblation this pure sacrifice which will be offered among the
7:30:16Gentiles is meant to be a sacrifice in context this sacrifice is presented as something which
7:30:23is greater than all the sacrifices of the old covenant this is a sacrifice which is supposed
7:30:28to be a pure and clean offering in comparison to the dirty offerings that were once presented
7:30:34so if this sacrifice does not fulfill one of the primary ends of the sacrifice of the old covenant
7:30:40which were propitiation then this sacrifice wouldn't be a greater sacrifice how could it
7:30:45be a greater sacrifice if it only fulfills some of the ends of some of the sacrifices
7:30:50of the old covenant rather it would be a worse sacrifice it would be a much worse sacrifice
7:30:55so the sacrifice of the Eucharist needs to fulfill all of the ends of the sacrifices of
7:31:01the old covenant in a greater way further it's the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross makes
7:31:08no sense to say that the sacrifice of the cross has some end but the sacrifice of the Eucharist
7:31:12doesn't have that end that makes absolutely no sense now when it comes to the first argument
7:31:18the shates give a very good summary they say quote "The sacrifice which is predicted in Malachi 1:11
7:31:24is a sacrifice replacing all the sacrifices of the old law but the sacrifices in the old law
7:31:30were not only of adoration and thanksgiving but also propitiation and impetration therefore the
7:31:35sacrifice predicted by Malachi will be of such a kind but this is nothing other than the sacrifice
7:31:41of the mass therefore the sacrifice of the mass is not only one of adoration and thanksgiving
7:31:46but also propitiation and impetration." End quote here we see the four ends of sacrifice presented
7:31:53we have adoration thanksgiving propitiation and impetration adoration is an act of the virtue of
7:32:00religion which is meant to acknowledge the supreme perfection of God adoration is the greatest and
7:32:07purest form of worship but on the other hand thanksgiving is a response thanksgiving is a
7:32:14response to the benefits which are given from God adoration and thanksgiving in the Eucharist are
7:32:20pretty obvious they're essential to any sort of sacrifice so very clearly the Eucharist is going
7:32:26to have these two this isn't really controversial with the Protestants who do affirm that the
7:32:31Eucharist is a sacrifice now when it comes to the last two this is where things get a bit
7:32:36interesting because there is a bit of disagreement so first we can speak of impetration what is
7:32:42impetration well impetration basically means that you're just asking for something if you go up to a
7:32:47king and ask the king to give you a benefit ask you to give you you know maybe a little bit of
7:32:53property over there you ask the king to show mercy on somebody else this is an act of impetration
7:33:00you're impetrating the king to do something for you so very obviously in the mass we offer various
7:33:05intentions and these various intentions are acts of infiltration yet the last one is where things
7:33:13get very controversial and this is propitiation what does propitiation mean well propitiation
7:33:20means to make somebody propitious to be propitious basically means to have a favorable disposition
7:33:26to somebody else usually it's in reference to a favorable disposition that one has after having a
7:33:32very unfavorable disposition propitiation means to render somebody propitious to be propitious means
7:33:40that you have a favorable disposition towards somebody when at one time you didn't have a
7:33:44favorable disposition towards somebody when you have a sacrifice of propitiation you're trying to
7:33:49appease somebody by offering something that they love so this is what happens in the sacrifice on
7:33:55the cross on the cross Christ offers in his infinite love his own body and blood in order
7:34:02to perpetuate the father this means that the father has some sort of wrath some sort of
7:34:07desired punishment against the guilt of sinful creatures and Christ is offering his own body
7:34:13and blood in order to render God favorable to us in English we have a similar idea with a peace
7:34:19offering a peace offering is something which is given from one party to another when they have a
7:34:24bit of tension in order to resolve the tension so if you get in a fight with you know your sibling
7:34:31you may give them something in order to render them propitious to you you're trying to propitiate
7:34:37the anger that they have of something that you've done wrong you're trying to end the hostilities
7:34:43between two individuals now the idea of a peace offering is a bit different because peace offering
7:34:48usually assumes that you're equals and that there is equal aggression between both sides
7:34:53and one of them is is finally trying to bury the hatchet uh by what's going on by what is offered
7:34:59or on the other hand we are guilty before God we deserve punishment and there's a very one-sided
7:35:05situation which is going on so propitiation is actually very closely related to infiltration
7:35:11we're basically asking God to do something in relation to our sins now in Catholic otteriology
7:35:18we think about guilt we think about the guilt of mortal sin the guilt of mortal sin is removed by
7:35:24sanctifying grace sanctifying grace is infused within us and guilt is removed now as I said
7:35:31before this is part of the descending mediation of Christ that we receive sanctifying grace so
7:35:36directly and immediately the sacrifice of the mass is not ordered to remove the guilt of sin because
7:35:43the guilt of sin is only removed by sanctifying grace which is part of the descending mediation
7:35:46of Christ and comes by way of the sacrament the only way in which we talk about the mass removing
7:35:51the guilt of mortal sin or anything like that is propitiation in so far as it is impetration we are
7:35:58asking God to be merciful unto us and he grants us a spirit of contrition he grants us repentance
7:36:05he grants us these good motions of grace which make us turn back to him this is the only sense we
7:36:12speak about the mass as propitious for the guilt of sin so it is completely wrong to speak of the
7:36:19mass as removing guilt in an immediate indirect way rather it only refers to the removal of guilt
7:36:26in a remote way in an indirect and a mediated way therefore the sacred theologia suma says
7:36:32giving a synopsis of the teaching of the council of trent quote "A sacrament sanctifies efficiently
7:36:38and instrumentally a sacrifice sanctifies to the power of impetation that it has in the sight of
7:36:44God the mass is offered for the sins not directly for their remission but it is offered for them
7:36:49indirectly in as much as by the sacrifice of the mass God having been appeased grants grace
7:36:55and the gift of repentance to the sinner and so forgives his sins." that is by giving the actual
7:37:00grace whereby the sinner disposes himself for justification to be obtained by the ordinary means
7:37:06end quote on the other hand we can actually think about certain temporal punishments which are due
7:37:11to sin these temporal punishments are satisfied in purgatory this is what is referred to when we're
7:37:17thinking about the punishments due to venial sins or sometimes they're called the punishments due to
7:37:21daily sins by some of the fathers by the offering of the body and blood of Christ the father is
7:37:27given some sort of propitiation in order not to punish these temporal punishments due to venial
7:37:34sin this is why according to the holy fathers mass is offered for the dead mass is offered for the
7:37:40dead so that God may be propitiated for all of the temporal punishments that he is inflicting
7:37:46in purgatory whether you like it or not this is the teaching of the fathers st and Augustine for
7:37:51example says quote "When sacrifices whether of the altar that is the mass or of alms are
7:37:58offered for the baptized dead they are thank offerings for the very good that is those in
7:38:02heaven propitiations for the not so very bad that is those in purgatory and as for the very bad that
7:38:08is those in hell even if they are of no help to the dead they are at least a sort of consolation
7:38:13for the living." End quote in this video we went over a lot we went over what a sacrifice is what
7:38:19are the various parts of a sacrifice how the mass fulfills all these parts of a sacrifice
7:38:24and therefore is a proper sacrifice we also went over the ends of the sacrifice of the mass some
7:38:29of the biblical justification the way in which the ascending and descending mediation of Christ
7:38:33relates to this the way in which we distinguish between a sacrament and a sacrifice and so on
7:38:37and so forth we went over a lot of stuff in this video this is why in the future I want
7:38:42to do particular videos going over some of these different aspects so let me know in the comments
7:38:47below which one of these aspects you would like me to cover in more detail and definitely subscribe
7:38:52like this video do all that good stuff follow me in order to get all of those future videos
7:38:57on the sacrifice the mass now I hope this helped you out and as always God [Music]
7:39:05bless pope Benedict the 16th said that mental prayer is an ordinary means that enables the
7:39:13disciple of Jesus to live in intimacy with the divine teacher yet how does one engage
7:39:20in mental prayer one of the greatest masters of the spiritual life was S ignatius of Leola
7:39:25in the 19th century a certain Jesuit priest decided to write a complete guide to mental
7:39:30prayer patent on the works of S ignatius check out this work on Amazon completely
7:39:35types set under the title a brief guide to mental prayer according to the mind of St
7:39:40ignatius for decades the popular Catholic mind has regarded predestination with disdain ordinarily
7:39:53viewing it as a Calvinistic heresy different as Catholics we don't believe in predestination
7:39:58what if I was to tell you that predestination is a Catholic dogma others understanding this will
7:40:04attempt to put forward a Catholic understanding of predestination bastardizing the historic
7:40:09teaching of the Jesuit order the teaching of St robert Bellerin Francisco Suarez and Luis
7:40:15de Molina by claiming that predestination to grace is after the consideration of our merits
7:40:21the toistic view affirms a total predestination of the elect through no condition like the Calvinists
7:40:27yet in most if not all occasions their articulation of mullanism violates Catholic
7:40:32dogmas as we will see throughout this video lastly a very many will understand well all
7:40:38the above yet will deny the idea of a quote double predestination accepting that God
7:40:43predestines individuals to heaven but denying any relation of the predestinating will of God
7:40:48to hell it would be a monstrous thing for God to do and the church rejects that it's
7:40:52called double predestination yet this too is against Catholic dogma as we will see
7:40:56above in most theological questions there are what are called opposed errors these opposed errors in
7:41:12order to retain some truth corrupt another truth in the issue of predestination there were some who
7:41:18wished to retain the truth of the freedom of the will and by that attempt destroy the doctrine of
7:41:23predestination these are called pelagians others in order to retain the truth of predestination
7:41:30destroy the truth of the freedom of the will these are called predestinarians further there were some
7:41:37who wished to so elevate the universality of the will of God save that they destroyed the
7:41:43particular will the predestined these are called semipolagians on the other hand there were some
7:41:49who wished to so elevate the particular and efficacious will to save that they destroyed the
7:41:54universality of the will of God to save these are given the ecclesiastical designation of Calvinist
7:42:01yet it is important to remember as we can also see with the description of semipolium
7:42:07that these historic descriptions conform to the beliefs of a historic group of individuals to a
7:42:12more or less degree with some designations the description is spot-on with other designations
7:42:18it is describing the popular understanding of the error with others it is describing the followers
7:42:24of a certain individual rather than the individual himself and lastly with others there's almost a
7:42:29complete disconnect between the described heresy and the individuals who supposedly hold these
7:42:34errors anyways the Catholic Church rather than emphasizing one truth over another holds all these
7:42:41seemingly opposed truths in tension following the teaching of divine revelation rather than
7:42:46the feelings of tension that they may have it is the job of the theologian to come in and begin
7:42:52to explain more and more the coherence of these seemingly opposed thesis and show how they do not
7:42:58contradict even while we will never be able to see the intimate reconciliation of these thesis until
7:43:04we see God as he is some of these theologians have tended to emphasize one part of the mystery over
7:43:10another tending closer to one or another heresy overexaggerating one point of the mystery at
7:43:16the exclusion of another still other theologians have taken the position of the radical centrist
7:43:22corrupting the truths not by any overemphasis but by seeking solutions that are in the middle of the
7:43:29seeming contradiction underemphasizing all the relevant truths lastly there is the theologian
7:43:36who faithfully holds what revelation teaches holding the tension where the mystery becomes too
7:43:41obscure and shining the light of reason on where reason can go in the most difficult questions
7:43:47there are two radically opposed and erroneous solutions one sitting by excess and the other
7:43:52by defect afterwards there then appear mediocre eclectic opinions opportunistically attenuating
7:44:00and juxtaposing the extremes in a kind of mechanical non-organic way however truth is found
7:44:07in the peak where there is an organic and positive reconciliation of the various aspects of the truth
7:44:14that are obscured in the opposed errors end quote yet it is important to remember that while we can
7:44:21critique the methodology and solutions of this or that theologian we need to remain faithful to the
7:44:27toleration that the church has of the number of different solutions to this problem so this video
7:44:33will be an investigation of the limits of Catholic theology to this problem and Lord willing I will
7:44:39make a future video that goes over the various systems classically set forth by theologians but
7:44:45before we continue have you ever wanted to read a book that is meant to be an entire introduction
7:44:50to theology written by toists and meant to bridge the gap between katakesus and higher scholastic
7:44:55studies well I have the perfect book for you the theology library is a six volume introduction to
7:45:01theology written by nearly 70 French Dominicans in the 1950s some of whom were students trained
7:45:06by the great Reginald Marie Gerugulge in order to be a comprehensive introduction to toistic
7:45:12theology for those laymen interested in Catholic action get your set today through the link below
7:45:19in order to set the boundaries of Catholic theology on this problem I will give a series
7:45:24of different thesis explaining them and then showing where the magisterium teaches these
7:45:29first God desires the salvation of all men second God only predestines some to salvation who will
7:45:36infallibly be saved third God predestines all salvific acts fourth predestination to
7:45:43the first grace and to its entirety are both before the consideration of merits
7:45:48fifth there is a positive consequent repbribation on the part of God sixth there is no positive
7:45:55antecedent repbation on the part of God the first thesis is simple god desires the salvation of all
7:46:02i don't really need to go into that one before we continue on to the next thesis we must ask
7:46:08the question what is predestination pope Adrien I sites St fentius to define the term writing as
7:46:15for that however which some of these say that predestination to life or to death is in the
7:46:21power of God and not ours they say "Why do we try to live because it is in the power of God." Again
7:46:28others say "Why do we ask God that we may not be overcome by temptation since it is in our power as
7:46:33in the freedom of the will for truly they are able to render or to accept no plan being ignorant of
7:46:40the words of blessed Faggentius against a certain Pelagius." Quote "Therefore God in the eternity of
7:46:47his changelessness has prepared works of mercy and justice but for men who are to be justified he has
7:46:53prepared merits he has prepared rewards for those who are to be glorified but for the wicked he has
7:47:00not prepared evil wills or evil works but he has prepared for them just and eternal punishments."
7:47:06This is the eternal predestination of the future works of God which as we have always acknowledged
7:47:13to be taught by apostolic doctrine so also faithfully we proclaim end quote here we see
7:47:20that predestination is something broader than the idea of election election concerns the choosing of
7:47:26such and such a person by God but on the other hand predestination concerns the ordering by
7:47:32God of certain means in order to bring about a certain end it is the order of salvation what
7:47:38providence is in the natural order this is why St augustine describes predestination in terms of the
7:47:45quote preparation of gifts since predestination in Catholic theology is God's preparation of the
7:47:52various different graces he will shower upon us in order to bring us elect to beatitude in our second
7:47:59thesis we see that this predestination to glory is not of all men in the papily approved council
7:48:06of valance 3 in the year 855 it states quote but also it is seemed right concerning predestination
7:48:15and truly it is right according to the apostolic authority which says or as not the potter power
7:48:20over the clay from the same lump to make one vessel into honor but another under dishonor
7:48:26where also he immediately adds "What if God willing to show his wrath and to make his power
7:48:32endured with much patience vessels of wrath fitted and prepared for destruction so that he might show
7:48:38the riches of his grace on the vessels of mercy which he has prepared under glory faithfully we
7:48:44confess the predestination of the elect to life the predestination of the impious to death in
7:48:51the election moreover of those who are to be saved the mercy of God precedes the merited good in the
7:48:58condemnation however of those who are to be lost the evil which they have deserved precedes the
7:49:03just judgment of God in predestination however we believe that God has determined only those
7:49:09things which he himself either in his gratuitous mercy or in his just judgment would do according
7:49:16to scripture which says "Who has done the things which are to be done in regard to evil men however
7:49:22we believe that God forneew their malice because it is from them but that he did not predestin it
7:49:28because it is not from him." End quote keep in mind that this quotation also touches on the fifth
7:49:34and sixth thesis thus while God gives sufficient grace to all men blowing forth from his will that
7:49:40all be saved the infallible ordering of graces to the end of glory is only given to some from
7:49:47this consideration the third thesis flows that is not only are all those who are saved predestined
7:49:53to glory but also each and every salvific act the paply approved council of orange too in the year
7:50:00529 states quoting St prosper the good will of God and of man men do their own will not God's when
7:50:08they do what displeases God but when they do what they wish in order to serve the divine will even
7:50:15though willingly they do what they do nevertheless it is the will of him by whom what they will is
7:50:22both prepared and ordered end quote these last three thesis are the most controversial of the
7:50:28thesis that we will discuss as to the fourth thesis many claiming the name of Molanist sin
7:50:34against the faith by denying this thesis yet it is important to note that neither Molina nor his most
7:50:40faithful followers ever denied that predestination to the first grace is before the consideration
7:50:46of merits for they as all Catholic theologians affirm that grace is the principle of merit thus
7:50:53the controversy between the mullenists and toists is not a controversy over whether predestination
7:50:58to grace is before or after the consideration of merits but rather whether predestination to
7:51:03glory is before the consideration of merits this is why in the quotation above from the
7:51:09council of valance it states that quote in the election moreover of those who are to be saved
7:51:16the mercy of God precedes the merited good end quote further we can look at the same text in
7:51:22order to establish the fifth and sixth thesis yet we need to explain the technical language
7:51:26attached to each of these thesis before we begin but before we continue remember to like comment
7:51:32and subscribe further if you like content like this please consider supporting the channel at
7:51:37patreon.com/mentois or giving a direct donation at christianbwagner.com/donate in the fifth
7:51:43thesis I use the language of a quote positive consequent repbation all this means is that this
7:51:49is a predestination to the punishment of hell that happens after the commission of and on the basis
7:51:55of the evil that the individual has committed and is personally responsible for this is why in the
7:52:01quote from balance above it states the following quote in the condemnation however of those who are
7:52:07to be lost the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God end quote
7:52:13this leads us to our sixth thesis that there is no positive antecedent repribation on the part
7:52:18of God the sense of this thesis is that God does not before one has committed sin that makes them
7:52:24liable to hell positively order them to hell this is what is commonly called predestination
7:52:30to hell or predestination to evil in Protestant circles this error is often called equal ultimacy
7:52:38there's clarification on this point in balance when it states the following quote in regard
7:52:44to evil men however we believe that God forneew their malice because it is from them but that he
7:52:50did not predestin it because it is not from him we believe that God who sees all things forneew
7:52:56and predestined that their evil deserve the punishment which followed because he is just
7:53:01in whom as St augustine says "There is concerning all things everywhere so fix a decree as a certain
7:53:08predestination." End quote further the Council of Trent clarifies the scope of this thesis stating
7:53:14quote "If anyone shall say that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil but that God
7:53:19produces the evil as well as the good works not only by permission but also properly and
7:53:25of himself so that the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work in the vocation
7:53:30of Paul let him be anathema." End quote thus the church leaves open a type of antecedent repbation
7:53:38professed by all non-molinist theologians even those theologians following Suarez and Bellamine
7:53:43this is called an antecedent negative repbation god chooses to permit some individual to fall
7:53:49into sin by withholding infallibly efficacious grace to that individual then by the act of
7:53:55positive consequent repbation described above God chooses to impose punishment on account of
7:54:01the sin that they fell into this is what St thomas meant when he stated quote "As
7:54:07predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory so also repribation includes the will to
7:54:13permit a person to fall into sin and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that
7:54:18sin." End quote in the 16th century there was a theological debate so profound that it divided
7:54:25some of the greatest minds in the history of Christianity a debate about how God knows the
7:54:31future on the one side of this controversy stands the theologians of the society of Jesus commonly
7:54:38known as the Jesuits who follow the doctrine of Louis de Molina and Francisco Suarez two
7:54:44of the greatest theologians of the Baroque era on the other side stand the theologians of the
7:54:49order of St dominic known as the Dominicans who follow the doctrine of the common doctor of the
7:54:55Catholic Church St thomas Aquinas however as few are aware the Dominicans are joined
7:55:01by the theologians from other schools in rejecting Molina's doctrine including Franciscans Austinians
7:55:07and virtually all other theological traditions one of the most significant exponents of the
7:55:13Dominican side of this controversy is the 18th century French Dominican Charles Renee Belowart
7:55:19billowart is noteworthy not simply for his arguments or profound insights but as a theologian
7:55:25who stands at the close of the debate providing a faithful and systematic overview of the Dominican
7:55:31arguments previously expounded at length by theologians such as Tomas de Limnos and Domingo
7:55:37Banzawart's devastating reputation of middle knowledge a concept that attempts to reconcile
7:55:44divine fornowledge and human freedom but according to Billowart profoundly misunder understands both
7:55:50by examining Billowart's arguments we'll uncover why his classical toistic critique
7:55:55remains unmatched even centuries later if you enjoy this video and want to delve deeper I've
7:56:01published an English translation of Billowart's masterful reputation of middle knowledge available
7:56:06for purchase on Amazon at the link below additionally those interested in toistic
7:56:11theology and seeking a structured comprehensive journey through Bilawart's brilliant work I offer
7:56:16an extensive course on my website in this course we carefully walk through Bilawart's Sum providing
7:56:23both English translations and detailed video explanations check it out via the link below to
7:56:29begin let's go over some historical background where did this controversy even come from the
7:56:34origin of this controversy is contentious and led to decades of conflict at the highest levels in
7:56:40Rome leading to dozens of different congregations under multiple popes over the span of many decades
7:56:46most historians placed the beginning of this controversy around 1581 when Prudencius de Monte
7:56:53Mayor gave a public defense of middle knowledge at the University of Salamanca this was quickly
7:56:58followed by reputations from Dominicans at the university including the famous Domingo
7:57:03Banz beside this he also denounced 16 thesis to the Spanish Inquisition for investigation there
7:57:11was an evaluation of the Jesuit theologians by various authorities at Salamanca and at the end
7:57:17of this first investigation they were condemned by the commissioner of the Holy Office although
7:57:22the Jesuits claimed that these thesis did not accurately represent them after this point the
7:57:27controversy exploded into other areas of Europe throughout the 1580s it was defended in the low
7:57:33countries by Leonard Leius and condemned in the universities of Luvane and Dwey finally Pope
7:57:40Sixstus V decided to step in as the controversy became more heated deciding in favor of neither
7:57:46side but encouraging both sides to keep the peace this controversy reached a fevered pitch around
7:57:521588 when Molina published a definitive edition of his Concordia a commentary on selected articles of
7:57:59the suma of St thomas Aquinas in this commentary he famously set forward the first systematic
7:58:05defense of the concept of middle knowledge while other theologians in the era before Molina had
7:58:10floated the idea in more or less clear form it was Molina that gave a systematic presentation
7:58:17this concordia was almost immediately denounced by Domingo Bettz this idea of middle knowledge which
7:58:23we will explain in more detail later was meant to solve a pretty intuitive problem how are we
7:58:28to think of God having knowledge of the free actions of creatures if we place it in God's
7:58:33knowledge of his own decrees then it would seem to remove the freedom of creatures so Molina decided
7:58:39to go beyond the traditional distinction between God's free knowledge and his necessary knowledge
7:58:43and invent middle knowledge the distinction between God's free and necessary knowledge is
7:58:48the distinction between how we consider God's knowledge of something to be in relation to
7:58:52the free decree of God god's necessary knowledge is said to be necessary because it is based on
7:58:58his own omnipotence god is necessary knowledge of anything he could do god necessarily knows
7:59:04that he could make a unicorn if he wanted to god is free knowledge of those things that he
7:59:09actually determines to will thus God does not have free knowledge of a unicorn since he has
7:59:14not actually determined to make a unicorn molina wanted to break free of this distinction due to
7:59:19the implications it has for issues of grace and predestination thus he devised a type of knowledge
7:59:25between these two this knowledge has as its future object free future actions the Tomas of course
7:59:32didn't deny that God had knowledge of free future actions outside of a few rather they stated that
7:59:37it was part of his free knowledge thus God knows a future free action because of his decree the
7:59:43molanists on the other hand claimed that middle knowledge is something which is both necessary
7:59:48in so far as it precedes the free determination of the will of God and it is contingent in so
7:59:53far as it is of an object that concerns the free decision of creatures the very root of the toistic
7:59:59critique will land on this point they will argue that positing such a decree breaks the classical
8:00:04view of God for it introduces dependency and imperfection in God rather than being completely
8:00:10independent only reliant on himself for his own knowledge God will be determined in his knowledge
8:00:15by a creature thus for the non-molanist God's knowledge can only be determined by something
8:00:20within himself either his omnipotence and his necessary knowledge or his will and
8:00:25his free knowledge anything else jeopardizes the perfection of God it removes God from being the
8:00:31first cause of things and the universal cause of all things for God is a cause through his decree
8:00:37if you have something truly future prior to the decree then this truly future thing escapes the
8:00:42causality of God by definition further it removes the omnipotence of God's will boxing his power in
8:00:49and limiting it to a limited set of possible choices based on the will of creatures to give
8:00:54an analogy William Lane Craig famously said that God must play with the cards that he has dealt
8:01:00in relation to the free decisions of creatures catholic theology must recoil from this for God
8:01:06is not determined by anything outside of himself he is completely independent while both toist and
8:01:11traditional molanist would rebuke Craig for what he said the toist would argue that this is the
8:01:16logical conclusion of molanism for the molanists the free decisions of creatures precede the decree
8:01:22of God thus God is handed the deck of cards that it is the possible future actions of creatures
8:01:29beside this point the tomus brought forward a second critique when considering the object of
8:01:33knowledge not only does it break down when we consider the perfection of God it also breaks
8:01:39down we consider the existence of things for knowability follows upon being something's only
8:01:44knowable in so far as it exists now existence is something that flows from an action of God which
8:01:50ultimately flows from his will since nothing exists independently from God
8:01:55thus even the free actions of creatures can only be and therefore can only be known as
8:02:00something flowing from the will of God not as something preceding it to continue the analogy
8:02:05given above the Thomas would argue that the cards that God plays the hand of providence with cannot
8:02:10be known unless God himself makes the cards since there aren't beings out there with existence apart
8:02:16from his sovereign will now if we introduce this knowledge after the will of God has been
8:02:21exercised then the entire foundation of molanism collapses since this has now been placed in the
8:02:26category of free knowledge in response to this Molina flipped the script and denounced Domingo
8:02:32Banz and another theologian Francisco Zumel to the Spanish Inquisition the objections against their
8:02:38doctrines centered around accusations of following certain Protestant doctrines condemned by Trent
8:02:44it is important to note something very important about the distinct character of the accusations
8:02:49and reputations the reputations of Molina by Banyanas and Zumel centered around the highest
8:02:54principles of things the very notion of the future the relationship between being and nobility firmly
8:03:00established doctrines surrounding God etc yet on the other hand the reputation of Bes and Zumel by
8:03:06Molina centered around certain amalgamations of difficulties that must be resolved such as for
8:03:12example the freedom of the will in its relation to the certainty of divine knowledge efficacy of
8:03:17grace etc while of course these are serious difficulties that need serious answers it is
8:03:23evident that the toist judged the matter on the basis of the highest and most certain principles
8:03:28whereas Molina judged the whole controversy on the basis of certain difficulties in matters like
8:03:33human freedom in 1594 the controversy reached its height now referred to the judgment of
8:03:39Rome by Pope Clement VII in order to resolve this controversy all the material touching this issue
8:03:45was sent to Rome and a series of discussions were planned where a select group of inquisitors who
8:03:51were cardinals hand selected by the pope could hear out the arguments for both sides these
8:03:56discussions became known as the congregations deilis this first round of congregations lasted
8:04:02nearly 10 years and had 181 sessions going from January 2nd 1598 to August 28th 16007
8:04:11traditionally these congregations are divided into five series the first series was from January 2nd
8:04:161598 to February 22nd 1599 in 11 congregations throughout this series the sensors constantly
8:04:24opposed Molina's doctrine on March 6th 1598 they declared quote "The absurdities that follow from
8:04:30middle knowledge are too grave to be tolerated as Catholic." End quote further they also accused
8:04:36the doctrine of semipolasianism writing on March 19th6001 quote it appears to be the same doctrine
8:04:42which the Micilians devised to destroy efficacious grace of good will and to attribute to free will
8:04:49that which they subtract from grace so as not to offend it wherefore it is evidently opposed by St
8:04:55augustine as with the error of the Masilians end quote the sensors ultimately decided to prohibit
8:05:01Molina's Concordia the Jesuits complained against this censure so the pope decided to summon another
8:05:07round of sessions the second series was from February 22nd 1599 to April 20th 1600 in eight
8:05:15congregations in this series Cardinal Banerius a Dominican and St robert Bellerin a Jesuit were
8:05:20present to represent their societies as judges so that prejudice could not be claimed the Dominican
8:05:26side was defended by Diego Alvarez and Michael de Laipa and the Jesuit side by Michael Vasquez and
8:05:32Pedro Arubal this series had to come to a sudden close due to the death of the cardinal overseeing
8:05:38the congregations the third series was from April 27th,600 to March 20th 16002 in 77 congregations
8:05:46this went further than the first series drawing up and approving a list of 20 propositions of
8:05:52Molina to condemn having been approved by the inquisitors the condemnation was then presented
8:05:57to the Pope the Jesuits complained again that the judgment was biased so the Pope decided to get
8:06:02the matter over with rather than promulgating the condemnation of Molina the fourth series was from
8:06:08March 28,6002 to January 22nd65 in 68 sessions this had the most illustrious representatives
8:06:17and witnesses including Pope Clement VI himself presiding with the future Pope Paul V assisting as
8:06:23supreme inquisitor both heads of the Dominican and Jesuit orders were present the principal
8:06:28disputants were Gregory de Valencia Pedro Rubel Fernando Bastida and Juand Salos much progress
8:06:35was made during these sessions especially the last 10 where the doctrine of middle knowledge
8:06:39was discussed during these sessions they tended towards a condemnation for example on October
8:06:4529th6004 it was concluded that Molina's doctrine was that of the semipolasians and therefore quote
8:06:51it must by all means be exterminated frustratingly Pope Clement died and his successor Leo XI 11th
8:06:57died shortly after this in May of6005 Paul V who had helped oversee the whole controversy became
8:07:04Pope the fifth series would be the last and would lead to a final decision and was from September
8:07:1014th6005 to March 1st6006 in 17 sessions the votes of the consulters were privately communicated to
8:07:18Paul V and were repeatedly reviewed in secret at the end of July 1607 a presentation was given to
8:07:24the cardinals who had participated in the sessions so that a judgment could be made to end the
8:07:29controversy the next month a final convocation of the cardinals happened yet this final meeting is
8:07:34shrouded in complete secrecy certain historians of the era taken up by partisan spirit declared
8:07:40this meeting in support of their own cause some even speculating that a condemnation of Molino was
8:07:45decided upon and drafted yet never promulgated but all of this is simply speculative nobody
8:07:50knows what happened in that meeting for sure a few days later he issued a rescript to the
8:07:55heads of the Dominicans and Jesuits ordering three things one he permitted that each side continue to
8:08:01defend their own views two he forbade giving centuries to the positions of the other side
8:08:06three he ordered that any books published on this topic be published only with the permission of the
8:08:11holy seat what can we draw from this history we need to keep two points in mind first we have to
8:08:17deny the claim of some that there was a formal condemnation of Molanism even if there happened
8:08:22to be a bull of condemnation written it wouldn't matter since a nonpromagated teaching has no force
8:08:28second we can rightly gather from this history a morally certain argument for the toistic position
8:08:34this can be gathered from the consistent inclination of the learned centuries to tend
8:08:38towards the condemnation of mullanism yet the Jesuits who opposed the censures throughout the
8:08:43controversy insisted that they were rash in their original judgment and only continued it throughout
8:08:49the various congregations due to their obstinency yet as Billowart comments quote "Everyone knows
8:08:55that such complaints are the consolation of those who litigate poorly when they lose the case they
8:09:01revile their judges." And indeed anyone will easily detect how poorly constructed and unfairly
8:09:06hurled these calumnies are if he notes that the molists have not always maintained the same tone
8:09:12towards these very censures but now once it has become certain that all with the exception of
8:09:17Boius voted for Molina's condemnation these same censures according to Levus deer are deprived of
8:09:25all virtue and passed off in devices foreign to them thus for some one's good or bad disposition
8:09:32toward the molanist cause becomes the shest badge of merit or demerit indeed it confers all merit
8:09:37or demerit whatsoever end quote now that we have gotten the history of the controversy out of the
8:09:42way it is time to begin to discuss the controversy in a bit more detail before we get into all the
8:09:48proofs from scripture and the reason that the non-molanists bring forward against the idea of
8:09:53middle knowledge we need to get into the state of the question that is we need to discuss a little
8:09:58more the exact question we are attempting to answer here when we are thinking about
8:10:02the future the future can either be necessary or contingent if a future is necessary then it
8:10:08is something that follows upon the very nature of things on the other hand if a future is contingent
8:10:14then it tends towards existence but with causes that can be impeded thus it is necessary to say
8:10:20that next year a triangle will have three sides since it follows from the very nature of being
8:10:25a triangle on the other hand it is contingent to say that Donald Trump will win a third term
8:10:30in office since there are many causes that would impede this result this is especially clear when
8:10:35we consider future free contingents which have the free will of man as the cause of an event now the
8:10:42question of middle knowledge isn't a question of whether there are such things as contingent
8:10:46futures or whether God knows contingent futures but how God knows such futures when it comes to
8:10:52necessary futures these are pretty easy to know if you know the cause you can know the effect but
8:10:58contingents especially free actions are a bit more difficult it's not from the very thing considered
8:11:02in itself since it is contingent not necessary it would be contradictory to say that the thing
8:11:08comes to be from its very nature and also to deny that it is necessary the tomist claimed that the
8:11:13knowledge of these things must come by the medium of some sort of decree of the will of God thus
8:11:18it is an aspect of the free knowledge of God yet the molanists have severe difficulties with this
8:11:24solution so they're unified in denying that it is by the medium of the decree of the will of God
8:11:30thus denying that it is part of the free knowledge of God but that it is before it it is important
8:11:35to note that the unified molanist position is a negative unity rather than a positive unity
8:11:41if you ask a molanist what the medium is whereby god knows these future contingents they will give
8:11:46a variety of answers but they are united in denying the toistic solution first some will
8:11:52say that it is the super comprehension of causes this was the solution of Louis de Molina himself
8:11:57who taught that due to God's exhaustive and eminent knowledge of all things God could
8:12:02understand how free creatures could act in any circumstance second some will say that it
8:12:07is the very truth of the thing that God perceives future contingents some say that it is the formal
8:12:13truth of things which means in the perception of truth of propositions others say that it is the
8:12:18objective truth of things which means in the very perception of the truth of objects both of these
8:12:24converge to basically the same solution since the formal truth of things follows upon the objective
8:12:28truth of things so when properly considering this question we're not simply asking whether God knows
8:12:34the future free actions of creatures or whether there are future free actions in the first place
8:12:39but rather in what medium God knows the future free actions of creatures if we answer that it is
8:12:45an act of the will of God that is a decree of God then it is part of his free knowledge if we answer
8:12:51anything else then it must be his middle knowledge now that we have the state of the question out of
8:12:56the way let's get into the arguments from reason and then scripture first before continuing we
8:13:01need to first ask the question of what the future even is in the first place we will see that if we
8:13:06begin with a proper consideration of the future then the toistic solution becomes clear and we
8:13:11have an irrefutable proof against the various molist solutions if we consider the question
8:13:16carefully we see that the future is that which is determined in its causes to have existence in the
8:13:22subsequent time thus St augustine says "For God to make future is nothing other than to prepare
8:13:28their causes." End quote further St thomas says quote "When it is said this is a future in order
8:13:34designated which is in the causes of that thing to its production." End quote it is important that by
8:13:40causes we qualify it as in subsequent time which St thomas and Augustine describe as a preparation
8:13:47or ordering for the future is not a consideration merely potential causes since this designates the
8:13:53thing as merely possible further the future is not a consideration of actually producing causes since
8:13:59that will make it already present thus it must be some sort of preparation or ordering of the causes
8:14:05for the future stands partway between the merely possible which is determined by potential causes
8:14:11and the actual which is determined by actual causes thus it must be the causes ordered or
8:14:16prepared in relation to existence now from this brief consideration of the future which
8:14:21is expounded upon at much greater length by billowart we can easily see that the toistic
8:14:26position is confirmed for the preparation and ordering of causes to existence only happens
8:14:32from the intelligent first mover who decrees things as future first Molina's opinion falls
8:14:38apart for when he says that it is the super comprehension of causes we can ask whether
8:14:43these causes are merely potential determined towards a future existence or actual If they
8:14:48are merely potential then it is possibility and not futurish if they are actual then it
8:14:54is actually existing rather than future thus the only solution that remains is the toistic position
8:14:59which says that these causes are prepared further in attempting to liberate human freedom molina's
8:15:05solution has put us in a more abject slavery for how are we said to be free if we are certainly
8:15:11determined in our action by circumstances molina has replaced a future determination by the decree
8:15:17of God who is able to decree not only the thing but also its mode of being with a determination
8:15:22by inanimate things beside all this the position is refuted by what is called disperate conditional
8:15:27futures with these future conditionals there is no connection whether moral or physical with
8:15:32the condition thus for example Elisha said to King Joash "If you had struck the ground
8:15:38five or six or even seven times you would have struck Syria until its destruction." End quote
8:15:43there is no physical or moral connection between striking the ground in victory in battle thus it
8:15:47is not something that can be known through the connection between condition and thing second
8:15:52the position of the other Jesuits that it is the truth of the thing also falls apart for
8:15:56truth is a property of being and follows upon it now nothing has being except as an effect of the
8:16:02will of God acting thus nothing has truth before such an action so it cannot be a medium in which
8:16:08God knows before the decree since such a medium only exists after the decree of God beside this
8:16:14fact it is clear that the formal truth cannot be a medium in which God knows things since it puts
8:16:18the cart before the horse i'll give you an example let's say you pick up a book on ancient Rome that
8:16:24book on ancient Rome is the medium by which you know some fact about ancient Rome you have to
8:16:29know the medium before you know the object and the object is what gives the truth to the medium
8:16:34what the Mullen are trying to do is completely flip this on its head they want to claim that it's
8:16:39actually the book on ancient Rome that makes that which is true about ancient Rome true rather than
8:16:44the other way around the truth of propositions comes from the existence of something already
8:16:49posited as Billowart states quote "An event is not truly future because the proposition asserting it
8:16:54is true rather the proposition is true because the event is truly future." End quote yet the
8:16:59same argument follows upon the position that it is the objective truth as well as Billart points out
8:17:04quote "The objective truth of futuration depends on the truth of the present being no less than the
8:17:09formal truth of the proposition depends on the objective truth of futuration." End quote this
8:17:13position posits an infinite regress the supposed medium depends on something else for its truth yet
8:17:19God's knowledge is supposed to depend on it for the knowledge of the truth how can God's knowledge
8:17:23of a thing be based on something that depends on knowledge of the thing for its knowability
8:17:28in the first place as Bill points out quote "That which depends on another in its truth and borrows
8:17:33truth from it cannot be a medium for knowing that other thing for a medium of knowing must be itself
8:17:39known before the thing it reveals." End quote from this we see that middle knowledge doesn't
8:17:44have an object if an act of knowledge doesn't have an object it doesn't exist it's logically
8:17:50incoherent to claim otherwise how are future free actions supposed to exist before the will of God
8:17:55acting if futuration has to do with being prepared in one's causes distinguishing it from the merely
8:18:00possible in the actual how are we supposed to have such preparation without the working of the first
8:18:05cause it is only the toistic position that is able to provide a coherent answer to how exactly God
8:18:11is able to know conditional free futures it is through a decree that is said to be subjectively
8:18:16absolute in God and objectively conditional through these objectively conditional decrees
8:18:20of God he prepares causes beforehand and therefore neither falls into making the future identical
8:18:26with the actual or with the merely possible thus we see that middle knowledge is an absolute
8:18:31disaster on a number of different fronts first it violates the perfection of God second it violates
8:18:36the principles of truth and its dependence on being third it violates the very idea of the
8:18:41future beside all this we can look at scripture where middle knowledge is frequently opposed
8:18:46first we can look into 1 Corinthians 4:6-7 where St paul writes quote "That no one be
8:18:51puffed up against another for another's sake for who distinguisheth thee or what hast thou that
8:18:57thou hast not received and if thou hast received why dost thou glory as if thou hast not received
8:19:03it?" end quote according to the Molinus system it is the will of the one that distinguishes him from
8:19:08the other thus Bilawir proposes an example quote that Peter rather than Judas consents to grace
8:19:14in equal circumstance must come either from God giving him that consent or properly from his own
8:19:19will if the consent is given by God then before God decrees to give that consent such a consent
8:19:26is not future and God cannot foresee it as future thus middle knowledge collapses if however Peter
8:19:32has that consent properly from his own will then he has what he does not receive and by
8:19:37that he distinguishes himself from Judas against the apostle end quote he continues with other
8:19:43examples of the same thing quote "The apostle says that God chose us not because we were going to be
8:19:49holy but that we should be holy." Ephesians 1:4 that God works all things 1 Corinthians
8:19:5412:6 that he works even our willing philippians 2:13 but if he chose us that we should be holy
8:20:00then before choosing he did not know us to be holy if he works all things and even the willing then
8:20:07he gives that very willing in consenting and if he gives it how can he know it as future before
8:20:12he has decreed to give it end quote but there's a text that almost every molanist will bring forward
8:20:18in defense of their doctrine matthew 11:21 which reads quote "Woe to the woe to the Beda for if
8:20:25entire and Siden have been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you they had long ago
8:20:30done penance and sackcloth and ashes." End quote the reason that this couldn't possibly assume the
8:20:35non-Manist position for under our position the Jews could have justly responded to our Lord
8:20:40and said that they would have repented if God decreed to give them efficacious graces as he
8:20:45had conditionally decreed to do with Ty inside him in response to this first we can turn this right
8:20:50back on them as Bill points out quote "According to the system of conquerorous grace the Jews could
8:20:56likewise have responded to Christ reproaching them in comparison to the Tyans." Lord if you
8:21:01had placed us in other circumstances in which through middle knowledge you forsaw we would
8:21:05have repented we would have done so." End quote yet we can also respond to this directly while it
8:21:10is true that they did not have efficacious graces it is not true that they did not have sufficient
8:21:15graces which make salvation truly possible if they would have employed these sufficient graces
8:21:20in remotely preparing for justification then God would have granted them efficacious graces as we
8:21:26conclude this video it is important to note that the amount of ink that has been spilled
8:21:30on this topic is immense i have done nothing but scratch the surface and provide a minimal overview
8:21:35of the history and principal objections to the Molina system this is a complex problem with
8:21:40complex arguments on either side there are in fact excellent and pious theologians who disagree with
8:21:45the toistic position on this question and that is fine we have to remember to be humble when
8:21:50discussing this question and to always be sure to keep the bond of charity that many holy popes have
8:21:56encouraged us to keep since Holy Mother Church permits a diversity of opinions as always God
8:22:02bless in many ways I hesitate to make this video i hesitate in the same way that you hesitate to
8:22:11contradict the lies of a habitual liar or to correct the delusions of a madman no matter
8:22:17what you say no matter how much evidence you bring forward there is always an escape in
8:22:22their mind truly someone willing to believe or to speak absurdity is hardly convinced by anything
8:22:30one such example is Sha Luke i don't really know much about Shaun Luke if you believe it or not i
8:22:36actually don't watch many YouTube videos unless it is for the purpose of video making but he came out
8:22:42with one of the most absurd theological claims that I have ever heard this is the claim that
8:22:47the Catholic Church before Vatican 2 taught that baptism did not give grace to anyone outside of
8:22:54the Roman communion right remember Vatican 2 says okay by baptism there's a sacramental bond such
8:23:01that all that have been justified in baptism are united together and it cites evidence of
8:23:08baptism's efficacy after talking about um the justification in baptism by the life of worship
8:23:16of ecclesial communities right people who don't even have apostolic succession or by Rome's lights
8:23:22don't have a proper eukarist and yet it says yeah baptismal grace is operative there now again you
8:23:28might have someone like Christian Wagner say oh well Sean's basically accusing Rome of donatism
8:23:33no of course not I agree Rome would have viewed those baptisms as valid that's not the issue right
8:23:40we know that impediments can block the efficacy of a valid baptism and being a heretic was one
8:23:47of them per cloth of the council of Florence uh per here as well so the cases that invincible
8:23:56ignorance historically applied to were very small to my knowledge not even the most extreme phenites
8:24:03teach this as is evident from their comments on baptized infants of heretics and schismatics his
8:24:10confirmation of this thesis which is contrary to any author who has written on this topic is also
8:24:15bad he thinks that it is a good argument to point the Hussites saying that we would never approve
8:24:21of a crusade against a heretical group whose sacraments give grace it seems that Shaun Luke
8:24:28has seemed to forget the fact we historically had anti-apostate and anti- heresy laws as well that
8:24:34were applied against those who were baptized Roman Catholics as children i guess for some reason the
8:24:40sacraments of those children were not fruitful because eventually they were punished for their
8:24:44crimes of heresy or apostasy the conclusion simply does not follow i was going to stop there but we
8:24:52can look at how poor this line of argumentation is from another line of thought he concedes that
8:24:57we always thought that schismatic baptisms were valid just not efficacious his argument from the
8:25:03husites is basically that we would never kill those who have a special relationship to Christ
8:25:08by their baptisms what is so juvenile about this argumentation is that he thinks that it is only
8:25:13sacramental grace that gives someone a special relationship to Christ he has exposed that he
8:25:19does not even know what a valid baptism is in the first place a valid baptism gives the sacramental
8:25:25character the indelible mark has Shawn ever asked himself what the character even is does he even
8:25:32know if he did he would not say something so outrageous as to distinguish between a
8:25:36merely valid baptism which does not give a unique relationship to Christ and one which gives grace
8:25:42and therefore does as St thomas teaches quote "Each of the faithful is deputed to receive or to
8:25:49bestow on others things pertaining to the worship of God." And this properly speaking is the purpose
8:25:55of the sacramental character now the whole right of the Christian religion is derived from Christ's
8:26:00priesthood consequently it is clear that the sacramental character is especially the character
8:26:05of Christ to whose priesthood the faithful are likened by reason of the sacramental characters
8:26:10which are nothing else than certain participations of Christ's priesthood flowing from Christ himself
8:26:16end quote this isn't some sort of esoteric information catacumans literally learn this when
8:26:22entering the church during OCIA as the CCC says quote "Incorporated into Christ by baptism the
8:26:29person baptized is configured to Christ baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual
8:26:34mark character of his belonging to Christ no sin can erase this mark even if sin prevents baptism
8:26:42from bearing the fruits of salvation given once for all baptism cannot be repeated." End quote
8:26:48in fact this is even in the compendium of the catechism which is an even more basic
8:26:53introduction to Catholicism it states quote "It is a spiritual seal bestowed by the sacraments
8:26:59of baptism confirmation and holy orders it is a promise and guarantee of divine protection by
8:27:05virtue of this seal the Christian is configured to Christ participates in a variety of ways in
8:27:10his priesthood and takes his part in the church according to the different states and functions
8:27:16he is therefore set apart for divine worship and the service of the church because this
8:27:21character is an indelible one the sacraments that impress it on the soul are received only
8:27:26once in life end quote beside this baptism makes one a subject of the church this is clear from
8:27:33the condemnation of Arasmus' positions at Trent and the common distinction of theologians between
8:27:38members and subjects of the church thus the entire assumption of his line of argumentation is false
8:27:44not only does a fruitful baptism give some sort of special relation to Christ a merely valid one
8:27:50does as well yet enough of that let's actually get to the meat of the question first it is not
8:27:56per se wrong to distinguish between four types of receiving the sacrament first you have the
8:28:01reception of the effect of the sacrament without a reception of the sacrament itself which is called
8:28:06by St thomas those quote who do not receive the sacrament but do receive the reality of
8:28:11the sacraments this would be those who receive the baptism of blood or desire secondly you have the
8:28:17reception of both the effects of the sacrament and the sacrament itself which would be called
8:28:22a fruitful reception of the sacrament third you have the reception of the sacramental character
8:28:28without the reception of the sacramental grace which is a merely valid sacrament which St thomas
8:28:33calls those quote who receive the sacrament and not the reality of the sacrament end quote fourth
8:28:39you have those who merely receive a simulation of the sacrament neither receiving it validly
8:28:44or fruitfully so Shawn claims that for any baptism outside the church it is in prevatican 2 thought a
8:28:52sacrament that is valid but not fruitful it is an instance of the third type of baptism now what is
8:28:58so absurd about this is that theological textbooks in the pre-consilary era that is before the
8:29:04era of Vatican 2 had entire thesis entire chapters teaching that there was the working of sacramental
8:29:11grace outside of the jeritical bounds of the Roman Catholic Church there were entire journal articles
8:29:16and entire monographs written on the topic of good faith heretics and schismatics if I wanted
8:29:22to quote those authors this video would be dozens of hours long because of the truly massive number
8:29:28of authors that teach the supposed novelty of Vatican 2 on this point in fact the claim of
8:29:33Shaun Luke is so absurd that I cannot think of a single author who doesn't teach this point
8:29:40if you want to read a good treatment of this question from an author who was very involved in
8:29:44the first Vatican Council you can read Cardinal Franand's declari thesis 23 which I will give a
8:29:52few quotes from below but I'm one who is up for a challenge so since I already hear the inevitable
8:29:57shifting of the goalposts as frequently happens when I point to authors teaching the supposed
8:30:02novelties of Vatican 2 decades or centuries before the council in a clear and manifest way I wish
8:30:09to mostly restrict myself to medieval authors and magisterial documents favoring my patron St thomas
8:30:15Aquinas first according to the medieval authors without restriction infants who received baptism
8:30:22received both the grace and character of baptism due to their lack of indisposition to baptism
8:30:28therefore they affirmed that sacraments give grace outside of the visible bounds of the church which
8:30:34is exactly what Shaun Luke denies first the teaching of the angelic doctor in the first
8:30:40place he writes quote "Baptismal grace in infancy is not opposed to anything but original sin but
8:30:46one child does not have more original sin than another therefore neither does one receive greater
8:30:50grace than another." End quote when St thomas is speaking of quote not opposed to anything
8:30:56he is contrasting the deliberate opposition of adults with the fact that since they are
8:31:01below the age of reason infants cannot give any opposition the same reasoning would apply to both
8:31:06heretical and non-heretical children of whatever state in the second place St thomas writes quote
8:31:12I answer that baptism in anyone who does not receive it insincerely universally removes any
8:31:18guilt infecting the person that it finds as has been said etc end quote now it is clear that an
8:31:24infant cannot receive baptism insincerely since they do not perform any moral acts since they are
8:31:30below the age of reason therefore etc in the third place he writes quote "It should be said that for
8:31:36the baptism of infants nothing is required on their part but for a disposition to salvation
8:31:41they have as it were the faith of the church and for the bringing about of salvation the power of
8:31:47Christ's passion which is at work in baptism." And these two things are equally related to infants
8:31:53and thus they do not differ in receiving the effect of baptism but all receive equal grace."
8:31:58End quote this clearly teaches the thesis in the fourth place he literally titles a section quote
8:32:04about infants and others lacking the use of reason who everyone agrees do receive the sacrament and
8:32:10the reality of the sacrament end quote remember those who receive the sacrament and the reality of
8:32:16the sacrament are those who receive both validly and fruitfully and this is something which he says
8:32:21that everyone agrees upon how much clearer could he get in the fifth place commenting on the place
8:32:27where Lombard says quote "All children who in baptism are cleansed from original sin receive
8:32:32both sacrament and the reality." End quote he writes quote "Not only little ones but
8:32:37also sometimes adults nevertheless with infants there is no doubt that they receive it there is
8:32:43however with adults for they can impede it by insincerity." End quote in the sixth place he
8:32:49writes quote "It should be said that in baptism a baptized person receives two things namely the
8:32:55sacrament and the reality behind the sacrament but to receive these two things nothing is required
8:33:01on the part of the one receiving baptism that would cause them but only on the removal of the
8:33:07impediment which is nothing other than the will contrary to one of the things mentioned and thus
8:33:12among adults and those having the use of reason in whom a contrary will can exist either actually or
8:33:18habitually baptism requires contrition or devotion to receive the reality behind the sacrament as
8:33:25well as intention or will to receive the sacrament but among children lacking in either one both the
8:33:32sacrament and the reality are received end quote in the seventh place he says quote among children
8:33:39there cannot be a contrary will either actually or habitually and thus in them neither willing
8:33:45nor intention is required for any impediment to be removed end quote in the eighth place
8:33:51he states quote as Augustine says in his book on charity no man is born of water and the Holy
8:33:56Spirit unwillingly which is to be understood not of little children but of adults in like manner
8:34:02we are to understand as applying to adults that man without himself is not justified by Christ
8:34:08moreover if little children who are about to be baptized resist as much as they can this is
8:34:13not imputed to them since so little do they know what they do that they seem not to do it at all
8:34:19as Augustine says in a book on the presence of God addressed to Dardanus end quote clearly he
8:34:26does not believe that there are impediments that can in any way be placed to the virtue of faith
8:34:30when it comes to infants thus in the ninth place he writes quote the carnal intention of those
8:34:36who take children to be baptized does not hurt the latter as neither does one sin hurt another unless
8:34:42he consent end quote further in the 10th place he writes quote since all children are equally
8:34:49disposed to baptism because they are baptized not in their own faith but in that of the church they
8:34:55all receive an equal effect in baptism whereas adults who approach baptism in their own faith are
8:35:01not equally disposed to baptism for some approach thereto with greater some less devotion end quote
8:35:08further in the 11th place St thomas even denies that it is a hindrance to the effects of baptism
8:35:13if the parents are unbelievers quote as Augustine says writing to Bonafice in the church of our
8:35:20savior little children believe through others just as they contract from others those sins which are
8:35:25remitted in baptism nor is it a hindrance to their salvation if their parents be unbelievers because
8:35:31as Augustine says writing to the St bonafice little children are offered that they may receive
8:35:36grace in their souls not so much from the hands of those that carry them as from the whole company
8:35:41of the saints and the faithful and the unbelief of their own parents even if after baptism these
8:35:47strive to infect them with the worship of demons hurts not the children but the faith of one indeed
8:35:53of the whole church profits the child through the operation of the Holy Spirit who unites
8:35:58the church together and communicates the goods of one member to another end quote in fact in a 12th
8:36:04place which says something similar he teaches that baptism gives the reality of the unity of
8:36:09the church which is why this does not violate the principle that extra ecclesium noal quote "This
8:36:15is to be understood however not as to receiving the sacrament but as to the reality behind the
8:36:20sacrament which is the unity of the church outside of which there is no salvation nor life." End
8:36:27quote enough for St thomas are there any other doctors who hold that regardless infants are
8:36:33regenerated by baptism yes and it is the universal consensus of the medievals of which I'll give a
8:36:40few notable names to confirm the thesis although I could give dozens if not hundreds more first
8:36:46blessed Dennis a Carthusian following Richard of Middleton after extensively citing many of the
8:36:52texts that I gave above writes quote "In baptism the evil of guilt and punishment is removed and
8:36:58the good of grace is conferred." Regarding the first two the effect of baptism is equal
8:37:03in all children just as original sin is equal in all of them and no one is bound to greater
8:37:09punishment than another furthermore according to the common law one does not receive greater graces
8:37:14than another in baptism end quote second Peter Poatier in book 5 chapter 6 distinguishes three
8:37:21groups infants who receive remission of their sins in the infusion of grace and if they die eternal
8:37:27life contrite adults and non-contrite adults therefore he clearly holds to the same doctrine
8:37:34third blessed Scotas in his ordinio actually explicitly refutes the argument that baptism
8:37:40is not fruitful for infants among heretics saying quote to the second principal argument it is said
8:37:46that a child is conjoined to God through the faith of the parents to the contrary posit the parents
8:37:51to be heretics it is said that he is conjoined through the faith of the church on the contrary
8:37:56let it be that in the church militant there were none faithful yet that they who offer the child
8:38:02for baptism would be intending to do what Christ did the child would still truly be baptized and
8:38:08receive grace i say therefore to the argument that de facto grace is given to none save through some
8:38:13meritorious cause which merits his first union with God this meritorious cause is Christ but
8:38:20because this one is not necessary to grant another cause intrinsic to the recipient whereby he may be
8:38:25conjoined to God before he receives grace end quote a similar response is given by Kagetin
8:38:31in commenting on St thomas's use of quote faith of the church end quote this is also something
8:38:37taught by St bonaventure who writes quote to the objection about faith that the faith of the church
8:38:42suffices it must be said that faith is like a universal agent but intention is a particular
8:38:49agent applying faith to this or that thus faith is preserved in the generality of the church but
8:38:56intention is necessary to couple that act of the faith of the church as a particular and actual
8:39:02act in the minister the power of the sacrament therefore comes from the faith of the church but
8:39:08its dispensation comes from the minister's action and since the ministry pertains to the intention
8:39:14of the one conferring faith is not required in the dispenser in the same way as intention is
8:39:20end quote in fact Blessed Scotas goes so far in the next distinction as to affirm that those in
8:39:27heresy or schism can receive all of the effects of baptism if they do not place the impediment
8:39:32of malice writing quote "The truth of the question is plain for many authorities because by whatever
8:39:39malice a minister is bad whether of heresy or schism or morals with the unity of the church
8:39:46preserved if he intend to do what the church does and keep the manner of the church he truly confers
8:39:52baptism and such baptism truly has its effects in the baptized notwithstanding the malice of the
8:39:59minister unless the malice of the receiver stand in the way in this that he is receiving from such
8:40:05a minister end quote it is clear that by effect he does not simply mean the effect of the sacramental
8:40:11character which is necessary for validity but also the effect of the other graces since in accordance
8:40:17with his teaching on those who receive in bad faith present in the fourth distinction he affirms
8:40:22that the effect of the character is present in those who receive in bad faith he goes on to
8:40:28confirm this further saying quote either a heretic baptizes the child in the form and intention of
8:40:34the church and in this nothing is an obstacle to the child neither as to the sacrament nor as to
8:40:40the effect or he baptizes an adult and still he confers on him the sacrament and its effect if
8:40:47there is not in the adult any evil motion as his consent to the heresy of the baptizer or intention
8:40:53to become his disciple end quote it is incredibly important that we have shown the consent of St
8:40:59thomas and blessed Scottas to this doctrine for among the medieval theologians at Florence the
8:41:05strict disciples of St thomas and Blessed Scotas made up the vast majority of authors along with a
8:41:11confirming text by St ponaventure who was held in high regard by the Franciscans at Florence
8:41:17beside this we have also quoted blessed Dennis of Carthusian who is regarded as the capstone
8:41:22of all of the medieval theologians especially immediately following Florence now I could keep
8:41:28going on and on and on but you get the point if you want to read any author talking about this
8:41:34point from the medieval church just read their commentary on distinction four of book four of
8:41:38the sentences it is clear and obvious and right there so it has become clear that infants born
8:41:45within heretical or schismatic sects according to the mind of the medievals which is clarified more
8:41:50and more in the broke in the Leonine era the sacraments administered by these heretical or
8:41:55schismatic ministers give grace thus the thesis that is given by Sha and Luke immediately fails
8:42:02yet what about the text given from the council of Florence that quote unless they are joined to the
8:42:06Catholic Church before the end of their lives that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of
8:42:11such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to
8:42:16salvation end quote did all of the theologians at Florence somehow condemn the entire tradition
8:42:22before them did they condemn themselves in the sentences commentaries that they wrote
8:42:25as bachelors of theology did they condemn those great masters that they wrote in allegiance to
8:42:31throughout their entire lives did they condemn the other doctors of the schools who they were
8:42:35loyal to as well clearly this idea is absurd so what does this text mean well what you have to
8:42:42remember is that schism is a type of sin schism is damnable because it is a mortal sin and is
8:42:49classified as one of those indispositions that the medieval theologians and magisterium speak of
8:42:56thus it needs to be treated like any other moral act that is grave it is perfectly normal for us
8:43:02to say that all schismatics go to hell without qualification why is this the case it is quite
8:43:08simple ordinarily when we name a sin we are naming some moral act on the part of a person
8:43:14that the individual is culpable for thus for example St paul states that those of various
8:43:20different classes drunkards fornicators adulterers liars etc will not inherit the kingdom of God to
8:43:26use a classic example if someone happens to commit adultery in a non-culpable way for example if he
8:43:32is invincibly ignorant that the woman he is with is not his wife then the individual is
8:43:38more properly said to be a non-adulterer than an adulterer although in order to better explain this
8:43:44we use the language of a material adulterer but would these possible cases of material adultery
8:43:51stop me from saying without qualification that all adulterers go to hell of course not it is
8:43:57assumed that when we name a certain moral act we intend to name that act as culpably
8:44:03exercised that is the act formally considered not the act materially considered this was my purpose
8:44:09behind my invocation of St augustine's words to the Donatists in an earlier discussion with Sha
8:44:15Luke where St augustine states that those are not obstinate in their heresy are rather called
8:44:21non-heretics than heretics thus those who commit an act of schism in an inculpable way are rather
8:44:29called non-skismatics than schismatics it is completely irresponsible and intellectually lazy
8:44:35if not dishonest to quote texts without having read and understood the teaching of those authors
8:44:41that surround those texts and the categories that they are working with in their own works thus
8:44:47the medievalss have an entire system of general moral theology about the culpability surrounding
8:44:52immoral acts that clearly show that they did not universally apply the condemnations of Florence
8:44:58to all those in schism but only those culpable for their actions as is most clearly shown in the case
8:45:05of infants who are the least culpable the Cardinal Franlin I mentioned earlier gives a quite good
8:45:12overview of this teaching although as mentioned there are thousands if not more teachings from
8:45:17other prevatican 2 authors who say the same exact thing he says quote for the reason just stated
8:45:24the sacraments of the church wherever they are validly conferred produce all those effects that
8:45:29an obstacle in the recipient does not impede thus if we speak specifically of baptism conferred by
8:45:35a heretical or schismatic minister upon infants in whom there can be no obstacle it has all the
8:45:41same essential effects as if it were conferred by a Catholic minister not only are they marked
8:45:46with the character of Christ but they are also regenerated as children of God through grace
8:45:51and incorporated into the Holy Mother Church whose members they remain at least in the internal form
8:45:57and before God until they adhere to schism or heresy by their own act which would be a mortal
8:46:03sin this applies fully to those called material heretics or schismatics that is in the external
8:46:08form alone as St augustine teaches in many places about the sacrament by which the mother church
8:46:14generates children not only through her own womb but also through the wounds of handmmaids
8:46:20end quote the reason that the sacraments of those in heresy or schism do not benefit them
8:46:25to eternal life is because they are illisposed to receive such graces by their immoral acts
8:46:31if they have acts of heresy or schism that they are not culpable for clearly the reason for the
8:46:37ill disposition is removed and it would be absurd to give the same condemnation and since they are
8:46:43lacking the form of their act that specifies it in being a sin then they would only improperly
8:46:49or materially be referred to as schismatics or heretics this is why as Frangelin points out St
8:46:56augustine sometimes qualifies his statement about the lacking fruit amongst schizmatics with quote
8:47:01those who are proud and do not join the lawful mother end quote thus Fransen goes on to say
8:47:07quote "Thus those who are proud that is who out of any perverse desires or culpable negligence
8:47:14do not seek the truth as they ought or refuse to embrace it when sufficiently proposed formally
8:47:20or equivalently adhere to error and rebelling against God in his church are torn from it as
8:47:26formal heretics or schismatics not only in the external form but also before God and in the
8:47:33internal form holy exile but on the contrary those who are only materially heretics or schismatics
8:47:40that is by external profession alone and not by culpable adherence of mind should be considered
8:47:46even as adults to have that disposition of good faith end quote that disposition of good faith
8:47:53which renders a schismatic or heretic merely material is assumed by St augustine of some
8:47:59for example the affforementioned epistle where he writes quote "Though the doctrine which men hold
8:48:04be false and perverse if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinency especially when they
8:48:10have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption but have accepted it from parents who
8:48:16have been misguided and had fallen into error and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth
8:48:22and are prepared to be set right when they have found it such men are not to be counted heretic
8:48:27ics end quote in fact interestingly enough this inculpability for the moral act of
8:48:33schism is actually baked into the old right of the reception of heretics and schismatics for
8:48:38as Frangelin points out for those received into the church from ages 7 to 14 which were above the
8:48:44age of reason they were only required to give a profession of faith rather than an abjgeration of
8:48:50heresies thus they were clearly assumed to not be culpable for their errors so the questions I have
8:48:57for Sha Luke and others are if Florence teaches that no sacraments practiced outside of the church
8:49:02are salvific simply by virtue of not being within the jeritical bound of the church rather than by
8:49:07reason of moral culpability why do they believe that infants who are baptized were saved when
8:49:12baptized by these individuals it can either be because of their lack of culpability or perhaps
8:49:18they're condemning their own views the latter is absurd so as to the former then you admit that
8:49:24it has to do with the moral quality of the act of schism if this is the case then why would it
8:49:29not also apply to anyone else who in accordance with their own teaching on general moral theology
8:49:36is not culpable for their schism if not why has the church assumed in culpability for heresy and
8:49:42schism among the young that is under the age of 14 would it not be a great crime for them to not
8:49:48require this ancient and necessary ceremony in the reception of heretics and schismatics now many of
8:49:54you claim that this distinction between material and formal schism is something novel that the
8:49:59authors at Florence did not have in mind but this is absurd and merely exposes the ignorance of many
8:50:06of you who presume to attack the Catholic Church while ignorant of the doctrine you speak of one
8:50:11of the greatest theologians of Florence was Juande Tokamada who was an expert at ecclesiology and one
8:50:17of the biggest influences on the ecclesiology of Florence if anyone is able to express the mind of
8:50:22the documents it is him toramada was one of the most active legates and theologians at Florence
8:50:29going before kings to do the bidding of the pope he was appointed by the pope to be present as a
8:50:34theologian at the earliest conferences of the council where the topics were discussed before
8:50:39the opening sessions in fact in the famous quote by Cardinal Baserian concerning the
8:50:44Latins destroying all their arguments against the filioquay in the beginning of the council it was
8:50:48Toramada who was the spokesman in fact it seems like he was the one who convinced Baserian of the
8:50:55Catholic teaching on purgatory in the debates that took place throughout the council he was appointed
8:51:00as one of the six official ortors of the Latins specifically he represented the Dominican order
8:51:06at the council beside this he wrote definitive chronicles on the council as well his biggest
8:51:12contributions came down to debates over the sacraments and the role of the Roman pontiff
8:51:17besides these discussions with the Greeks he was also involved with the discussions with cops
8:51:22well luckily for us he wrote a work called Suma Deaclasia and the entire fourth book
8:51:28is about schism and heresy isn't that fantastic well does he mention material schism and heresy
8:51:34anywhere in this work he absolutely does this is evident when he discusses the necessity of
8:51:39pertinacity for there to be true schism he says quote "Not just any disobedience suffices to
8:51:45constitute the nature of schism but only that which is partenacious with a certain rebellion
8:51:51it is rightly understood that the disobedience through which schism is incurred must be taken
8:51:57with a certain pertinenacity hence Alexander of Hail says that schism properly understood occurs
8:52:03when one pertinently withdraws from obedience to the head of the church and blessed Thomas
8:52:08says that not obeying precepts with a certain rebellion constitutes the nature of schism i
8:52:14say with rebellion when one both pertinently despises precepts and refuses to submit to his
8:52:20judgment end quote he applies this question when he considers the question of adhering to
8:52:25an antipope in which he also includes the eastern schismatics drawing the same distinction between
8:52:30various different groups that we do to this day and are clearly reflected in the teaching of St
8:52:36thomas when he discusses general moral theology in primosukund as I already told Sha Luke but
8:52:42as somebody addicted to his own judgment and errors he didn't listen or wrote quote first
8:52:49proposition that those who intentionally separate themselves from him who they know to be the true
8:52:54Roman pontiff are schismatics this proposition is manifest from what was said above where it
8:53:01was stated that those are truly schismatics who intentionally separate themselves from the unity
8:53:05of the church or from the apostolic sea second proposition those adhering to an antipope out of
8:53:12perverse ignorance which is when someone directly wishes to remain ignorant of the knowledge of the
8:53:17truth and is drawn back by sin are schismatics this proposition is evident because such ignorance
8:53:23since it is voluntary does not excuse but accuses and increases the sin third proposition those who
8:53:30adhere to an intruder or antipope out of error or gross or subine ignorance for example because
8:53:37they do not care to apply diligence but neglect to be informed of the truth which they are bound
8:53:43to investigate namely who in truth is the pope are not excused from the staining guilt of schism
8:53:50this proposition is evident because such adherence to an antipope proceeds from ignorance that is in
8:53:56some way voluntary since they voluntarily condemn or neglect to know what they are bound to know for
8:54:02no one is excused by ignorance when he has access to the learned fourth proposition those who after
8:54:09exact diligence to know the truth about who is the true pope could not be fully clarified and induced
8:54:14by some probable reasons adhere to an antipope yet with the intention of always adhering to
8:54:20the true pontiff once they could truthfully be informed of this seemed to be excused from the
8:54:25staining guilt of schism this is proved because their ignorance is entirely involuntary since it
8:54:31is invincible and without any disorder of will and consequently the act that follows is without
8:54:37any fault hence Lord Uler in his suma says quote "If someone regarding a doubtful action consults
8:54:44the more learned having no express authority on whether it is so or not provided he form a good
8:54:51conscience after consulting the more learned even if the matter turns out otherwise he
8:54:57has not sinned for he did what he could and God requires nothing impossible for men." End quote
8:55:04fifth proposition simple people and unlearned who lack knowledge of law or fact seem to be excused
8:55:10from the stain and guilt of schism by obeying and adhering to the one whom their prelets obeyed and
8:55:16adhered to because they have a readiness to mind to obey whoseever right might be sufficiently
8:55:22shown whether by God's revelation the church's declaration or any other means." End quote thus
8:55:29he brings up the following objection that would assume the definition of heresy that Shaun Luke
8:55:34seems to have how much clearer could this get if you have someone acting in good faith and always
8:55:39willing to follow the commands of God carrying out his duty and invincibly in ignorance he is not a
8:55:45schismatic thus his baptism does incorporate him into the church since as St thomas teaches union
8:55:52to the church is given in baptism now when it comes to heresy he brings up the following
8:55:57objection that would assume the definition of heresy that Shaun Luke seems to have writing
8:56:01quote it is often argued against that where it says perttonaciously etc it is argued first
8:56:07as follows that this particle is superfluously included innocent III writing to the count of flu
8:56:13says quote those are to be understood as manifest heretics who publicly dispute against the Catholic
8:56:18faith or profess or defend an error or who have been convicted before their prelets or who have
8:56:24confessed or have been judicially condemned by them for heretical depravity end quote in
8:56:29these words no mention is made of pertinenacity therefore anyone who heirs against the Catholic
8:56:34faith even if not perttonaciously seems to be considered a heretic end quote yet he refuts
8:56:40this writing quote to the eighth objection where it is argued that perttonacity is superolously
8:56:45included it is responded that this is false and when it is argued that in the definitions
8:56:50assigned by the holy fathers no mention is made of pertinacity a twofold response is given
8:56:55first according to the distinction set forward above by master Alexander of Hales namely that in
8:57:00those definitions the term heretic is not defined most properly as we are now speaking but either
8:57:06commonly or properly as is distinguished from most properly second it is responded and this is
8:57:12better that although pertinacity is not expressly stated in the affforementioned definitions it is
8:57:18understood since it pertains to the essence of heresy as was sufficiently shown from the
8:57:23authorities of blessed Augustine end quote very clearly when the medievals were using terms like
8:57:29heretic and heresy they did not mean the material representation or mere adherence to falsehood but
8:57:36required the special character pertenacity as was seen in the case of schism lastly the magisterium
8:57:42has taught this on a number of occasions before Vatican 2 that someone who does not place an
8:57:47obstacle to the baptismal graces receives these graces this is exactly the teaching of the second
8:57:53Vatican council first innocent the third affirm the plenitude of graces in remission is to be
8:57:59found at the baptism of infants stating quote for they assert that baptism is conferred uselessly on
8:58:04children we say that a distinction must be made that sin is twofold namely original and actual
8:58:10original which is contracted without consent and actual which is committed with consent original
8:58:16therefore which is committed without consent is remitted without consent through the power of the
8:58:20sacrament but an actual which is contracted with consent is not mitigated in the slightest without
8:58:26consent end quote second against Martin Luther Leo I 10th condemned the following thesis as heretical
8:58:32quote it is a heretical opinion but a common one that the sacraments of the new law give pardon and
8:58:37grace to those who do not set up an obstacle end quote third the Council of Transession 7 condemned
8:58:44the following thesis saying quote "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the new law do
8:58:49not contain the grace which they signify or that they do not confer the grace on those who do not
8:58:54place an obstacle in the way as though they were only outward signs of grace or justice received
8:58:59through faith and certain marks of the Christian profession by which the faithful among men are
8:59:04distinguished from the unbelievers let them be anathema if anyone so say that grace as far
8:59:10as concerns God's part is not given through the sacraments always and to all men even though they
8:59:15receive them rightly but only sometimes into some persons let him be anathema end quote now it has
8:59:21been proven from all the magisterial statements above the principle that those not placing an
8:59:25obstacle to the sacraments receive grace is firmly to be helped which was already taught in all
8:59:30the medieval schools as I pointed out above now this clearly applies to all infants baptized in
8:59:35heretical or schismatic sects yet does this also apply to adults obviously it does apply to adults
8:59:42who are culpable for their schism as pointed out above and taught in Florence but can one be
8:59:47rendered inculpable for their action of schism yes the church affirms this inner teaching on general
8:59:52moral theology against the Jansenists this is most clearly seen in the teaching of Alexander VII who
8:59:58stated quote although there is such a thing as invincible ignorance of the law of nature
9:00:03this in the state of fallen nature does not excuse from formal sin anyone acting out of ignorance end
9:00:09quote it is a condemned thesis of the Jansenists long before Vatican 2 assert universally that
9:00:15invincible ignorance cannot render a moral act inculpable thus it is completely erroneous to
9:00:19assert that simply because an act of schism causes one to be indisposed to sacraments that such an
9:00:25act cannot be excused from formal sin and thus not be a cause of indisposition that is in an
9:00:31act of material schism this is basically all there is to say it is completely absurd to state that in
9:00:37principle someone outside the jeritical communion of the church does not receive a fruitful baptism
9:00:41according to the teaching of the church this is clearly seen in the case of infants but
9:00:46it is also seen in adults when one presents the teaching of the church on culpability for sinful
9:00:50acts the interpretation of Florence is quite easy when one is aware of the background material and
9:00:55especially that of the writings of Coramato who played a chief role in the ecclesiology
9:00:59of Florence including the drafting of documents that's all and as always God bless even if your
9:01:07friend is a saint and doctor of the church your friendship is not secure the effects of
9:01:13misunderstanding and rumors can harm even the strongest friendships this is what Rufinus a
9:01:19fifth century church father learned when he had a very slight disagreement with his friend St
9:01:25[Music]
9:01:29jerome this disagreement in the subsequent failure of the friendship between St jerome
9:01:37and Rufinus became infamous in the history of the church being written about by a number of
9:01:44ecclesiastical historians but not many people know about it today in fact even ecclesiastical writers
9:01:52during the time of St jerome and Rafinus were writing about how terrible of a break
9:01:57this was for example St augustine comments "In short where's the friend who may not be feared
9:02:03as possibly a future enemy if the breach that we deplore could arise between Jerome and Rufinus oh
9:02:10sad and pitiable is our portion i'm here to tell you the entire story of the breakup between these
9:02:17friends from the time that they became friends all the way until the end where St jerome goes so far
9:02:23as to celebrate the death of his friend Rufinus." Anyways the background of this is found in the
9:02:30writings of origin of Alexandria the 3rd century church father in the 4th century about a century
9:02:36and a half after his death there was a violent quarrel between many ecclesiastical writers and
9:02:41church fathers on both sides of the orthodoxy of the writings of origin of Alexandria they fought
9:02:47over issues like his trinitarian theology his esquetology and his method of ex Jesus the end
9:02:54of this controversy was determined at the fifth ecumenical council where origin was condemned as
9:03:00a heretic now I want to be clear and say that I'm not an expert on the writings of origin of
9:03:04Alexandria all I'm going to tell you about is the history of the disputes between the authors
9:03:10during this time there were fathers who took both sides of the dispute there were multiple different
9:03:15issues that were debated so I think we need to be a bit careful about what we say here for example
9:03:22something like his scriptural ex Jesus is really up for debate but on the other hand something like
9:03:28his esquetology is obviously wrong and this is seemingly what the fifth ecumenical council and
9:03:33the ecclesiastical condemnations usually focused on the controversy begins in the early 4th century
9:03:40st peter of Alexandria and St methodius of Olympus condemn the esqueological positions of origin such
9:03:47as on the pre-existence of souls but anyways after this point there are actually two other
9:03:53accusations first once the Aryan crisis you know got underway there were accusations that origin
9:04:00was actually the source of Aryanism with his views on the trinity second interestingly enough some
9:04:05actually critiqued Origin's exeetical methodology st ustius of Antioch for example critiques origin
9:04:12on both of these points now as I said before and as I'm going to reiterate the interpretation of
9:04:17origin on both of these points especially on his view on the Trinity are hotly disputed whereas the
9:04:23criticism on esquetology is pretty much admitted but at this point there were also fathers who
9:04:28defended origin but the controversy really heats up in the 390s what happened in the 390s that St
9:04:34epipanius actually lists origin and originism in his famous listing of heresies this was actually
9:04:41said in opposition to St john of Jerusalem who is the immediate successor to St siril of Jerusalem
9:04:48under St john of Jerusalem there were two monks who were particularly big fans of origin st jerome
9:04:54and Rufinus at this point in the 390s St jerome was a big fan of origin he actually sung the
9:05:01praises of origin on many occasions he called him the teacher of the church after the apostles he
9:05:07called him an immortal genius he really loved Origin at this point and he has a very funny
9:05:12quote actually about origin that I quite like he states that the people who hated origin hated him
9:05:18quote not because of the novelty of his thesis not because of heresy as baying dogs are now alleging
9:05:25against him but because people could not bear the fame of his eloquence and his learning end quote
9:05:31so yeah St jerome's actually a pretty funny guy he would have been excellent on Twitter but this
9:05:36quote will become extremely ironic as we'll see in a moment the controversy starts when St epipanius
9:05:42just shows up at Jerusalem and starts demanding that people condemn origin including St john St
9:05:49jerome and Rufinus st john and Rufinus refused but St jerome while at first hesitant decided to
9:05:57capitulate to what St epanius said so because of this St epanius gets really mad and St and Epanius
9:06:04decides to preach a sermon in the city he accuses St john of falling into heresy now obviously this
9:06:11is a pretty terrible move you shouldn't go into the dascese of a different bishop and you know
9:06:16abuse his hospitality by preaching a sermon in his church accusing him of heresy without some
9:06:21sort of obvious ecclesiastical sentence on a very disputed question totally not a good
9:06:26move from St epanius now the situation gets even worse because St and Epanius decided not only to
9:06:33preach a sermon accusing St john of heresy he also decided to ordain a priest without his permission
9:06:40the priest Paulinus now also at this point St epipanius decided to write a letter against St
9:06:48john of Jerusalem and St jerome due to his skill in both the Latin and the Greek languages and his
9:06:54fame as a translator decided to translate the epistle from Greek into Latin and because of
9:07:01this the west began to learn of this controversy that was happening in Jerusalem it went from a
9:07:06purely local crisis to now an international crisis now at this point St john realized that this was
9:07:12spilling over into other places and decided to contact the patriarch of Alexandria who was who
9:07:19would obviously be in a position to help him in this crisis and this patriarch was Theophilos of
9:07:25Alexandria who interestingly enough is actually the uncle of St cirill of Alexandria and at this
9:07:30point St jerome also entered into the writing controversy by writing a pmical work against
9:07:36his own bishop St john of Jerusalem which you know it was pretty harsh um to say the least
9:07:43but Theophilos when he stepped in was able to quell the controversy everyone became friends
9:07:48st jerome liked his bishop again rufinus liked St jerome again everybody was chill now now this is
9:07:54where things get interesting rufinus decides to head west and he wants to live in Rome while at
9:08:00Rome he begins translating from Greek to Latin a bunch of different works which were defending
9:08:05the orthodoxy of origin because obviously in the east this is a bigger issue there were various
9:08:10works which were written so Rufinus wanted to communicate some of those defenses to the west
9:08:19this time he also wrote himself a little defense appended to one of the works that he translated
9:08:24called on the falsification of the works of origin origin during his lifetime actually complained on
9:08:30multiple different instances that there were various individuals who were circulating works
9:08:35under his name that were falsifications and that they did that in order to defame him so Rufinus
9:08:41in an absolutely amazing spectacular move decided to say everything that you read in Origin that's
9:08:49bad was actually just one of those works or parts of works which were falsified so Rufinus actually
9:08:55was the originator of the it's a forgery defense amazing i cannot wait for all of you guys to tell
9:09:04the Eastern quote Orthodox that they're actually originists when they do this anyways what was
9:09:10actually convincing is that in this work he placed all of the unorthodox statements from origin on
9:09:15the trinity and on esquetology next to completely orthodox statements from origin on the trinity and
9:09:21on esquetology scriptural ex Jesus you know all of those different issues so he did little columns
9:09:27of different quotes from origin and he said well obviously origin believed all the orthodox stuff
9:09:32and all the unorthodox stuff he didn't believe now the better solution to this problem is to
9:09:38realize that origin throughout his entire life had a team of scribes following him writing down
9:09:43every little thing that he said and that probably he changed his mind on some issues or maybe like
9:09:50other theologians do sometimes in certain works they're more speculative than in other works
9:09:55they just generally state the common opinion on certain matters now the really bad move is that he
9:10:01actually started a translation of origins on first principles and in this translation of on first
9:10:06principles he used the little table to remove all of the sections from on first principles that were
9:10:12unorthodox and state that these were actually falsifications of origin's words so he basically
9:10:18rewrote entire sections in a orthodox manner and said well you know origin probably believed this
9:10:24so I'm just going to change it now to me this absolutely makes no sense because it makes sense
9:10:30in a homaly or some sort of letter to a layman that you wouldn't engage in overly speculative
9:10:36matters like origin had done but in something like on first principles this is his work this is
9:10:42something that he would feel comfortable engaging in speculation and obviously in that speculation
9:10:48he was wrong so we can commend Origin for the orthodoxy that he showed in those sermons where
9:10:54you know he said the right thing but we obviously have to state that he's just completely flatout
9:10:59wrong in matters of speculation in certain works like on first principles but I digress in the
9:11:06introduction to this work his translation of first principles Rufinus makes a side comment that would
9:11:12actually spark the controversy with St jerome he says that he was continuing the work of a great
9:11:17man who had previously translated Origin's works now this great man was St jerome because St jerome
9:11:24for years had been translating Origins homalies into Latin now for whatever reason some guys
9:11:31in Rome decided to start some trouble so they deceitfully got a copy of Rufinus' translation
9:11:38of on first principles which was not edited and completed yet and they sent it to Jerome with a
9:11:44letter and in that letter they told Jerome that the intention of Rufinus was basically to diss
9:11:49him in the introduction of the work to point to St jerome is somehow inconsistent which you know he
9:11:56was because he changed his mind and they said that Rufinus was basically lying about it obviously
9:12:01when he simply stated he was continuing the work of a great man in translating or he obviously
9:12:07meant no harm towards his friend St jerome now in an absolutely legendary move St to Rome read
9:12:14the letter read Rufinus's translation and decided to just sit down and translate the entirety of on
9:12:21first principles in a very literal way not leaving out any of the problem passages from the text then
9:12:28he went and he sent the entire translation to Rome with two letters one letter was meant for refinus
9:12:35and the letter was actually quite cordial and he stated that he wanted to keep his friendship
9:12:40you know he was offended by what Rufinus had said you know somehow that's an offensive thing for him
9:12:47to say but he was offended by what he had said but he didn't want to break the friendship that
9:12:50they had mended in Jerusalem but then he sent a second letter and this second letter was meant
9:12:56for the two guys who had reported this to Jerome in the first place and basically he went on and
9:13:01on and on in this letter about how the originists were a bunch of heretics including Rufinus which
9:13:07interestingly enough Rufinus was obviously the most orthodox of all the originists because he
9:13:12just didn't really believe in orism he just believed in orthodoxy and then changed origin
9:13:17to believe in orthodoxy so he just basically had weird textual opinions that that's the only thing
9:13:22about Rufinus there was really no grounds for ever calling Rufinus a heretic and making all
9:13:28these weird accusations towards him now these guys who had first reported this to St jerome
9:13:32were a bunch of jerks and what they did is they actually took the first letter that was meant for
9:13:36Rufinus tore it up threw it in the trash you know got rid of it and they took the second letter and
9:13:42they sent the second letter to Rufinus so Rufinus gets this letter from St jerome and it's basically
9:13:48like "Yeah you're a dirty heretic you know you're probably an Aryan you know and blah blah blah blah
9:13:53blah so that that's the letter that got sent to Rufinus and obviously this was completely you
9:14:01know not the intention of St jerome st jerome meant to send a more cordial letter to Rufinus
9:14:07you know explaining to him why he was hurt by what Rufinus had done but not breaking their friendship
9:14:15and all of this of course is extremely frustrating because it seems like if it wasn't for these other
9:14:21guys meddling in this situation that Rafinus and St jerome would not have had such a harsh break
9:14:27but everything kind of goes downhill from here anyways at this point Theophilles of Alexandria
9:14:32remember uncle of St sirill he decided to do a complete 180 on the whole origin question
9:14:39so before he was more supportive of origin and originism but then at a certain point he decides
9:14:45to flip the tables and become extremely anti- originist he makes a lot of weird accusations
9:14:51towards origin like that origin did not allow prayer to the sun or anything like that which
9:14:56is kind of crazy because in Origin's homalies he's always praying to the sun you know it's kind
9:15:02of a strange accusation to make but most say that Theophilus was actually more politically motivated
9:15:09than anything because there were a bunch of monks that he didn't like who were originists and he
9:15:13kind of wanted to you know get rid of them which was a very Theophilus thing to do so in order to
9:15:19get origin condemned he decided to write the Pope Pope Anastasius I and Pope Anastasius I agreed to
9:15:26a condemnation it's interesting that you have the patriarch of Alexandria writing to the Pope to get
9:15:30a condemnation it's all I'm saying that's just that's just curious isn't it but at this point
9:15:36this is when the controversy really started to heat up into an international crisis and
9:15:41at this point those same jerks or maybe some other guy but probably most historians say the
9:15:47same jerks they decided to falsify a quote from Rufinus' translation of on first principles and
9:15:53send it to the pope and say "Well Rufinus thinks this insert heretical proposition."
9:15:59So Rufinus decided to go directly to the pope and to explain himself and explain how he's not
9:16:03a heretic and also tell him a little bit about his methodology and his thesis about the falsification
9:16:09of the works of origin at this point St john of Jerusalem actually stepped in on behalf of Rufinus
9:16:15and as a result of this of hearing what Rufinus had to say and of hearing St john of Jerusalem
9:16:21the Pope decided not to condemn Rufinus and he left the matter up to God now at this point refu
9:16:28actually speculated that those you know those guys who were jerks that they actually sent the
9:16:34quote to the pope at the behest of St jerome which we now know is actually correct they did that on
9:16:40behalf of St jerome so Rufinus felt it necessary to write a defense of himself and basically all
9:16:48he did is he wrote a defense of himself which went over all of the different accusations and
9:16:56explained his own orthodoxy and then also uh because this was directed at St jer Rome who
9:17:02was now being a bit harsh with Rufinus to say the least he also appended a section of the book which
9:17:10went over all of the various places where Jerome himself had praised Origin and he basically said
9:17:15look I'm just saying exactly what you're saying i'm praising Origin and I don't believe anything
9:17:20different than what you're saying i just he just had this weird belief about the textual issues
9:17:26uh in Origin's works now I think it's completely fair actually for Rufinus to defend himself in
9:17:33this way to write a work defending his orthodoxy and to showing the inconsistencies of St jerome i
9:17:39think that's completely fair for him to be upset about the letter which Jerome sent and also the
9:17:44agitation with the pope this is all completely fair st jerome absolutely should not have on
9:17:49such light reports have condemned anybody like this in a letter um to to anybody st jerome on
9:17:57such slight grounds should not have just went out and condemned his friend that that was that wasn't
9:18:02okay at all but to me Rufinus pointing to all the former support that St jerome had for origin just
9:18:10makes absolutely no sense you know he you could support somebody at one point of your life and
9:18:16then change your mind and that's completely fine to change your mind and presumably seems like St
9:18:20jerome when St apanius laid it all out for him decided to change his mind on this problem it
9:18:26makes no sense for Rufinus to point at this as some sort of own uh against St jerome anyways
9:18:32uh St jerome's little Roman friends the guys who are complete jerks decided to inform St jerome
9:18:38that Rufinus was composing this work which was meant to defend himself and to respond against
9:18:45St jerome and at this point nearing the end of our explanation of the controversy St jerome receives
9:18:53this letter and does not get the book yet he wouldn't get the book for a while he becomes
9:18:59to put it lightly completely unhinged because at this point he hadn't even read the work he didn't
9:19:06even know what Rufinus was going to say but it was just enough for him to know that Rufinus
9:19:11was writing a work which was responding to him that he went sat down and wrote two books and
9:19:17for those who don't know books are basically large sections of a of a certain work which
9:19:21you know we would normally call the work the book and the books the sections but know it's whatever
9:19:27he wrote two large books and sat on it and then received the work and then added a third to it
9:19:33so three books against Rufinus and this work is pretty bad it's pretty horrible it goes into a
9:19:42lot of personal attacks of his former friend mind you former friend Refinus uh mocks him makes fun
9:19:50of his rhetorical skills it's it's a pretty sort of depressing work to read uh from a saint of the
9:19:58church the Catholic historian Carl Boss comments quote "In theatrical elegance in stinging irony
9:20:06Jerome's defense against Rufinus' apologia is clearly superior but in regard to content it
9:20:13is one of the most distasteful examples of theological pmics he did not set himself to
9:20:19rebut the really sound criticism of Rufinus but tried to do so through mere sarcasm his
9:20:25personal invectives against his former friend make painful reading rufinus' wretched style he says
9:20:32makes it obvious that he had scarcely attended school but the books of the ignorant always find
9:20:37readers he unscrupulously questions the honesty of Rufinus' profession of faith to Pope Anastasius
9:20:44and compares his argumentation to the tricks of a fox after reading the first two books Rufinus sent
9:20:51Jerome a letter which has been lost and hence we do not know his final word in this matter
9:20:57he kept silent for the last 8 years of his life and Jerome when he learned of Refinus's death in
9:21:04410 he wrote in triumph that now the scorpion lies pressed flat under the earth of Sicily
9:21:11now finally the manyheaded hydra ceases to hiss end quote and that's how the whole thing ended
9:21:17i mean they went from being best friends in Jerusalem in the 390s to Jerome literally
9:21:24celebrating the death of Rufinus and branding him throughout his entire life a heretic it's
9:21:29sad it's extremely sad we can all recognize this and what's the most annoying thing is that this
9:21:36was basically just started by weird rumors and Rufinus honestly um despite his obviously wrong
9:21:44position on the status of the works of origin and the orthodoxy of origin on certain matters he was
9:21:52giving the judgment of charity to a former friend but unfortunately St jerome didn't give the same
9:21:57judgment and this actually teaches us a lot about the various flaws that we can see in the saints in
9:22:02the doctrines of the church and in the fathers there are flaws which pervade some of their
9:22:07lives and we have to be honest about that but anyways I hope you all enjoyed this and God bless
9:22:17[Music]

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